Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9910D"
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:30:03 +1000
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From: Jonathan Jermey <jonjermey@HERMES.NET.AU>
Subject: indexing under broader topics
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If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however
broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if someone
looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New South
Wales, and about Sydney.
This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South
Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states and
territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be
mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general
reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states, eg,
New South Wales'. Is there a better way?
I find a similar problem with other types of texts, eg, cookbooks, where I
really think fettucini, macaroni and spaghetti dishes should be grouped
under pasta (if I run out of macaroni I have no objection to making 'spiral
pasta cheese').
(This question is prompted by me looking up Ku-ring-gai Chase National Park,
but not finding info I knew was there, because it was indexed only under
'Bobbin Head').
Glenda.
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:25:35 +1000
Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au
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From: Jon & Glenda <diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: the future of web indexing (was automated vs. manual)
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Predictions of the future so often underestimate (et, the world market for
photocopiers is about five (or somthing like that)) or overestimate (eg, the
paperless office is nearly here) that it is really hard to tell what will
happen. All you can do is position yourself for what you consider the
likeliest occurrence.
At the level of searching the whole internet, I believe that subtle
developments will make automated searching much more feasible. Some of these
tap into mass human brainpower, eg, of all the people who searched Yahoo for
'stomach ulcers', 50% chose X's website, so next time someone searches for
'stomach ulcers' we'll put her site to the top. On this scale statistical
methods also become much more useful. (Of course, commercial imperatives can
make it work the other way, so if Y pays a bit they go higher up in the list
(I forget which sites do this)).
At the level of a single document, eg, a book, it is a lot harder to imagine
automated indexing doing anything useful.
In my experience, 5 years ago everyone would have expected computers to do
everything, and now a lot of people are involving humans, so I think the
trends suggest continued involvement of humans for a while.
There is also a difference between guessing what will happen, and getting
involved to MAKE something happen. There are great sites out there with
lousy access. What can we do about it? We can write and offer our services.
Even if a tiny percentage respond positively this'll bring work for a
decade. (This is hypothetical; I plan to do this, but haven't had time).
I work as a 'web indexer' for one government department, in which a
librarian suggested that they add metadata to enhance access. We need to
communicate with other info workers, eg, librarians and web managers, to
create our niche.
A lot of it comes down to allocation of resources. We often say no-one can
afford to index the whole Internet. I think it was Bella Haas Weinberg in an
article in Keywords or The Indexer who made the excellent point that in the
past a lot of money has gone into 'indexing' (in its many forms), but these
were spread over different libraries, book publishers, etc. It is when all
the info is massed together that the costs look overwhelming. I always
figure that if an organisation can pay, say, 2 web staff per year ($80,000)
they could easily pay an indexer a few thousand to organise an index for
them.
We jsut need to develop our marketing skills.
Cheers,
Glenda.
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:29:34 +1000
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From: Dwight Walker <dwight@WWWALKER.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: automated vs manual indexing
Comments: To: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@brown-inc.com>,
Web Indexers' Mailing List <WINDMAIL@listbot.com>
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> This is true if your goal is to prepare the site for access by a
keyword-based search engine; otherwise, there is no reason to limit yourself
to file-level access.
>
> The "keywords" META tag associates keywords with files, but you may want
to index specific locations *within* those files. NAMEd anchors are valid
targets for your index entries, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be
able to include them in your index. The problem is that there's no standard
mechanism for associating keywords with anchors--that's one of the reasons
we developed HTML Indexer.
Just because you are indexing at a file level does not stop the usefulness
of the index created via a search engine. I can't see how an HTML Indexer
generated index can handle over a few 1000 entries. After that it will fail
due to the labour required to keep it up to date. Embedded indexing through
meta data is much more efficient than your tool when there are 100,000s of
links to index. Yours would take years to index. Mine would take several
weeks.
> There must be at least six! :) Our Australian customers currently
include:
>
> * Education Queensland
> * Australian Taxation Office
> * New South Wales Department of Health
> * TACTICS Consulting
>
> Glenda Browne also uses HTML Indexer to maintain the AusSI web site index.
I have trained several University and corporate librarians in Sydney in Web
indexing using meta data. They are now using that in their library Web
sites. That is way better than a one off index that requires much more
labour to maintain. Most of my customers want to take the indexing inhouse.
HTML Indexer cannot handle that. It requires specialised indexers to use it.
Mine is for librarians and non-indexing personnel. My training in meta data
is more extensible and open ended than your technology. I work in with the
Webmaster, librarian and provide a range of HTML tools and methods of
indexing, not just one way. We are more diverse and flexible than your
single product.
> Indeed, so good indexers can develop mutually advantageous relationships
with their clients.
Not always the case. I find most Australian companies tend to shaft you
after about a year to save the cost of consultants. You have to have much
more than a good relationship to keep them from doing that.
> I disagree. Database indexing is much better suited to automation than
web site indexing. A good web site index looks and works much like the
index at the back of a book.
Your back of book style Web indexing was what I pushed about 2 years ago.
Now I see it does not cater for very large sites. It may do for small sites
or intranets but you cannot handle very large sites with back of book style
Web indexes.
> Index Server only serves up the fruits of a human indexer's efforts. It
has nothing to do with the *creation* of "keywords" META tags--that still
requires intellect.
Yes, but there are ways of automating this using software to multiply meta
tags very quickly. There is a product that will do this already called
Metabot (see ASI Web indexing SIG Web page):
http://www.tetranetsoftware.com/products/metabot.htm
Intellect is no good if it cannot scale. Meta data scales. Back of book
style Web indexing does not.
Dwight
----------------------------------------------------
Dwight Walker
WWWalker Web Development Pty. Ltd. (ACN 088 959 086)
PO Box 428, Merrylands, Sydney, 2160, Australia
http://www.wwwalker.com.au, http://www.speakeasy.org/~dwight (US mirror)
tel +61-2-96371649, mob +61-412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058
ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.icq.com)
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:37:19 -0400
Reply-To: tombrown@mint.net
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From: tom brown <tombrown@MINT.NET>
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
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The problem I find with an entry "See also specific <names>" is that the reader
may have no idea what these names might be. In the example entry "Australia, see
also names of specific towns and states," I would have no idea what the states
are, and know only a couple of towns. Ideally, there might be an entry "States,
listed,".but that would work only if the text actually contained such a list.
--
____
/om tombrown@mint.net
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Glenda Jermey wrote (in part):
> If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however
> broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if someone
> looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New South
> Wales, and about Sydney.
>
> This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South
> Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states and
> territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be
> mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general
> reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states, eg,
> New South Wales'. Is there a better way? ...
>
>
> Glenda.
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:56:43 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: PilarW@AOL.COM
Subject: getting feedback from clients
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Peter Rooney asked:
"Does anybody use a written evaluation form for
the purpose of soliciting the editor's comments?
What questions do you ask? Do you include a SASE?
Any comments on these lines will be highly
appreciated."
I include a self-addressed stamped postcard whenever I submit a job to a
client. I pre-print them here in my office, and fill-in the author/title of
the work indexed, the date I sent it, and my signature before including it in
the packet. The rest of the card includes space for the client to fill in the
date they received the job, whether it met *their* specifications or not, and
then several blank lines for comments/suggestions. At the top of the card I
have something about "was my index on top of the world?" (some of my cards
have world maps and globes on them) or "was my index as great as it could've
been?" "Please help me improve my services so that I can provide great
indexes to you for all your great books" -- or words to that effect.
I haven't tallied how many of these I get back, but I do get most of them
back. The feedback is generally positive or noncommittal (lots of yes's, or
"fine" and "great" and such). But I often do get constructive comments on the
blank lines, things that I can really apply like "really liked how you
handled such-and-such" or "the bold didn't look so hot in final typesetting,
please use italics next time" or some such.
Many thanks to Sonsie Conroy for this idea, a few years back here on INDEX-L!
Unfortunately, I've yet to find a suitable substitute for e-mail submissions.
No matter how often I ask for a reply ("Please confirm if you got the file
okay," for example), I often don't get much constructive feedback. --It's
either that the file didn't convert as expected and they need another
version, or they got it wonderfully and everything is just hunky dory and I'm
fantastic.
happy indexing,
Pilar
L. Pilar Wyman
WYMAN INDEXING
Annapolis, MD
410-757-7119
<A HREF="MAILTO:PilarW@aol.com">PilarW@aol.com</A>
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/pilarw/web">Great Indexes for Great Books</A>
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:20:27 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Gravitz <igravitz@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index
In-Reply-To: <380F1B43.A67D6371@mindspring.com>
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Rob,
I'd be interested in your survey also. How about putting it on the list
instead?
Ina Gravitz
(Soon to go from part-time to full-time indexing.)
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:34:43 EDT
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From: WordenDex@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: beating me up
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Robert--
In a message dated 99-10-21 13:39:15 EDT, you write:
<< We do the best we can. >>
This lyric from Bernstein's Candide needs to be in our heads all the
time. Hope you can "hear" the music there too.
Diane in Kazoo
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:18:10 -0400
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From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: beating me up
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> This is not possible for those indexers who tend to build the index as
they
> go. By this I mean, those who enter new locators in the same record as
the
> previous ones. I tend to do this so I can get a better picture of the
index
> as it is constructed and so I don't have to spend time at the end
adjusting
> 4 subheads that mean the same thing, but are worded slightly different
from
> each other
> e.g.
> Counterintelligence
> during WWII
> WWII examples
> in Japan, during WWII
>
> You get the idea. So I might take the first one and use it all the time.
> Cindex allows you to type the first few letters of an entry and it will
> "jump" to it, allowing you to select it easily and add a new locator to
the
> ones already listed. I find that the improved consistency is worth not
being
> able to do a page order sort.
SKY Index's autofill feature is great for this sort of thing. When you
start typing the first few letters of a heading or subheading, the autofill
fills in the most likely candidate from the entries you've already typed.
For instance, in the example above, if you typed W, it would fill in "WII
examples" -- saving you 12 keystrokes. If you had several options
beginning with a capital W, it would fill in the most commonly/recently
used one, changing as you add letters. In the example above, say you also
had a subheading "Western." As soon as you typed "W" you would get "WWII
examples" because you've used it more often. However, once you type the
"e" you would get "Western." (You can update your list, too, to reflect
changes you've made in phrasing or spelling -- great if you've caught a
typo.) Once you have the term you want to use, you press enter and add
your page number. It's possible to enter a complete record -- heading,
subheading, and locator -- using as few as 6-10 keystrokes, without having
to remember a lot of macros or acronyms (though you can have those, too.)
And since each locator is entered as a separate record, you can print the
index in page number order or sorted (alphabetical) order.
I find the autofill feature cuts down on my entry time considerably,
because I use a lot fewer keystrokes. It also cuts the editing time, since
I'm more likely to use terms consistently. It's especially good for
avoiding entries like "cat" and "cats," though it doesn't eliminate
duplications like "dogs and" and "and dogs." However, if I enter "and
dogs" the view window hops to "cats, and dogs," and I can see that I used
"dogs and" and change my new entry to match.
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:39:59 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up)
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Dan Conolly wrote:
> This thread is great and it has really gotten me thinking. I'm wondering
if
> anyone has developed standard index editing markup symbols?
Your symbols make sense, Dan, and would be good if someone besides the
indexer is doing the data entry. (I'm assuming you meant these symbols to
be used for editing a printed draft of the index, though some would also
work for initial data entry.) However, if one is doing one's own editing,
those symbols/codes may be overkill -- too time consuming.
I usually do most of my editing on the screen. If I'm doing groups that
are too big to contain on the screen, I may print the group out, but other
than that, my first editing passes -- for groups, for inconsistencies, for
"tightening" (eliminating subentries when there are too few to warrant the
space, etc.), for locator errors (15-18, 17), and so on -- are done on
screen. Then I do a printout and do a final editing pass, looking for
anything I missed. Generally, I just highlight the errors or make a quick
note; since I've already done the first passes on screen, this pass rarely
turns up anything structural, such as the need for a double-post. If it
does, I'll usually enter it immediately, while I'm thinking of it. Then I
fix anything I've found and print out a final draft for proofreading.
I also try to get someone else to proofread the index at this stage;
sometimes, they will spot one or two things that I may have missed through
being too close to the index. ( If I can't do that, I try to have enough
time to go away from it and come back fresh.) Having a second, fresher
pair of eyes look at an index can often eliminate minor errors and hence
some of those "How did I let that mistake go through" self-recriminations.
With email, the "other pair of eyes" doesn't even have to be local; one
could team up with an indexing friend from anywhere, as long as s/he is
willing to trade proofreading. Of course, ample time must be allotted for
this, but it quells a lot of the qualms, and makes for a better product.
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:50:44 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM
Subject: Re: Beating me up
Rachel,
Sounds like you're saying part of the problem was you just didn't
think of the missing cross-reference. My suggestion is to look at the
indexes in other books on that subject. When you're about done with the
index, go to the library and scan the indexes of a few other relevant
books and see what another indexer did. You might see an entry or cross
ref you didn't think of.
- Susan
***************************************
Susan Danzi Hernandez
BookEnd Indexing
susanhernandez@juno.com
(316) 789-0576 (Kansas)
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:01:10 EDT
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From: WordenDex@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: beating me up
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Rachel,
Most of the comments so far seem to apply to interim screens per se, i.e.,
not a hardcopy draft. My "last" task is to edit from a printout where screen
misreads and omissions usually jump out for subsequent fixing.
Re your abuse example, I'm not certain that it is really an error, unless
you consider an omission one and the same. Yes, yes, errors of commision and
omission. However, the first is more obvious and the second could be
obsessively endless. Just do it as best you can and move on.
Diane in Kazoo
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:13:21 EDT
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From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Beating me up/X-refs
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Speaking about cross references....
Sometimes it helps to list the cross references on the screen and/or even
print them out. Macrex will list them for you. If your software doesn't,
just group on "see" and you'll have them right there. It will give you a
sense of what type of roadmap you've created, and might spur some good
thinking about additional ones you could add. I do that when in doubt.
As for marking printouts and/or proof -- I don't use full words either, but
have my own shorthand. An X in a circle tells me to make an x-ref. I mark
an entry or a term with F2 if I want to create a main head from a subhead (F2
is the Macrex function key that does this), or F3 if I want to flip an entry
(ditto). Works for me. Always work in red pen -- can see it better than
blue or black. I find colored markers distract, but I'm sure everybody has
their own way. Work methods are such an individual thing! ;-)
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:24:14 EDT
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From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: beating me up
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Diane wrote: << Yes, yes, errors of commision and omission. However, the
first is more obvious and the second could be obsessively endless. Just do it
as best you can and move on.>>
How true. We can be our own worst enemies. Bob's excellent posting has
reminded us that we are working in "fastidious mode" against Amazing Time
Constraints on difficult material. All we can do is the best we can.
After that, we have to be good to ourselves. Where? ... in what other
profession? .... do you see such a push for perfection?!! Programmers have
to de-bug. They get to remove the errors and hold their heads up high while
doing it. No shame in that part of their work. Software gets tested and
things still show up in beta testing. Authors get edited. And edited, and
edited. No guilty feelings there. It is expected that *their* creative
product will undergo further polishing.
We are so incredibly hard on ourselves! What we need is what a friends of
mine has. It's a rubber glove stuffed so it looks lifelike, with a short
broomhandle stub attached. And when she needs it, when feeing "down", she
can reach for it and gives herself a well-deserved pat on the back for
achieving a difficult task or for work well done.
We hard work, we submit intellectual masterpieces, done in difficult
circumstances, for not-such-good pay many times. Our product is needed and
used. This is good, and we should feel better about our work. Damn we're
good! Here's to self-acceptance!!
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:37:05 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: automated vs manual indexing
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Dwight Walker wrote:
>
> Just because you are indexing at a file level does not stop the usefulness
> of the index created via a search engine.
There must be a misunderstanding: I am *advocating* embedding index entries in the source files to which they refer. My statement is that "keywords" META tags can be associated only with files, and that they cannot be used to provide access to specific locations *within* those files.
As for usefulness of a site search engine, consider two *identical* lists of index entries--one in which you can see all the words and phrases (as in the back of a book), and another in which you have to *guess* which words and phrases might be included (as in a keyword-based search engine). I don't see how the former can fail to be more useful than the latter.
>
> I can't see how an HTML Indexer generated index can handle over a few 1000
> entries. After that it will fail due to the labour required to keep it up
> to date. ... Back of book style Web indexing ... does not cater for very
> large sites. It may do for small sites or intranets but you cannot handle
> very large sites with back of book style Web indexes.
That simply is not the experience of the many people using HTML Indexer, but it's really not a question of which tool to use. (Sure I'm biased, but I think the issues are larger than that.)
Sure, it requires effort to create the index for a large web site, just as it requires effort to index a large book or a volume of books. I thought that was the point of the discussion: helping web site managers see the value a back-of-the-book index brings to a web site, whether as an alternative or a supplement to a site search engine.
It is in the maintenance phase that you see the real advantage of embedded index entries. Maintaining the site index involves (a) creating entries for new or changed information, (b) resolving any stylistic inconsistencies between new and existing entries, and (c) rebuilding the index (in HTML Indexer, a single mouse click).
The other point of my message was that I believe good indexers are the people best suited to creating *and* maintaining those indexes--and that they can make a good living at it. Whether they are full-time indexing consultants, staffers with other additional responsibilities, or librarians who understand the principles of information access seems of little importance.
>
> I find most Australian companies tend to shaft you after about a year to
> save the cost of consultants. You have to have much more than a good
> relationship to keep them from doing that.
As Glenda suggested in a follow-up message, that may bespeak a need for better marketing skills. As a consultant, I've always found those client relationships to be my most importnat business asset.
I refer not simply to good *personal* relationships with your clients, but those in which you demonstrate that your consulting fees are a fair price for the value your work adds.
>
> Meta data scales. Back of book style Web indexing does not.
It's a nonsensical comparison. META tags are a method of *embedding* keywords (albeit for files only). Back-of-the-book indexes are a method of *presenting* keywords (for files, named anchors, and any other valid URL).
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:07:17 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
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> The problem I find with an entry "See also specific <names>" is that the
reader
> may have no idea what these names might be. In the example entry
"Australia, see
> also names of specific towns and states," I would have no idea what the
states
> are, and know only a couple of towns. Ideally, there might be an entry
"States,
> listed,".but that would work only if the text actually contained such a
list.
Agreed. But whereas for Australia the list of states might be manageable,
the list of towns and cities might well not be. And can you imagine a
cross-reference from "United States" to all fifty states -- by name?! If
the "specific names" can be named in a list of manageable proportions, it
makes sense to do so. Otherwise, one must take into account both the
audience and the length of the index. For a book on social services in the
United States, one might well have an entry "United States" with
subheadings for population, racial distribution, poverty level, etc. One
would probably also have similar subheads for many if not all states.
Since the majority of the audience is likely to be familiar with the names
of the states, it makes more sense to have a see-also cross-reference from
"United States" to "specific states."
One ought also to consider how easy it is to find the information
concerning those "specific <names>". Any good atlas ought to give the
reader the names of the states in the US, Australia, or other countries.
It's when the "specific <names>" are more obscure -- French generals during
the First World War, for instance -- that these generic cross-references
become more problematic: because the reader is unlikely to know or be able
to easily find the names, it's more important that they be included in the
cross-reference. But again, index length and audience affect that
determination as well.
Ultimately, it comes down to the indexer's judgement of what will serve
this particular book the best. No index is without compromises -- in
content, speed of completion, length, exhaustivity, or some other aspect.
That's one of the reasons (to pull in another thread) I don't see automated
indexing approaching the quality of human indexing until and unless true AI
becomes a reality. In addition to the difficulties arising from contextual
meaning* and implied concept**, computers simply cannot make the judgement
calls on what material to include and exclude, and how, because they lack
the reasoning ability needed to make those judgements. A computer can, as
we've discussed before, produce a compendium. Programs could even be
written to provide cross-references to certain synonyms. But the computer
can't decide that this book needs a generic cross-reference, while that one
really needs to have the cross-referenced terms spelled out (even though
the main heading is identical in both books), because the program can't be
written to handle that degree of analysis, not only of text but of audience
and publisher needs. Nor can it be written to judge whether a reference is
passing or really indexable, or to grasp the index structure and
hierarchies implied by the text. That kind of judgement comes from
experience, both lived and read.
* contextual meaning: e.g., musical keys vs. house & car keys vs.
figurative keys to solving a puzzle vs. islands south of Florida vs. the
code for decrypting encrypted information
** implied concept: a concept which is discussed in the text without using
the word or term which usually identifies it.
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:12:25 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: DStaub11@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: beating me up
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yup, Rachel, we all make mistakes. Just do your best. I do gather each
subject main heading phrase using group mode in Macrex--to double-check that
all the flipped entries are equivalent. It doesn't take all that long. I also
look carefully at each line of the index and just think about it--does it
look right, should these pages be posted anywhere else, are there any missing
cross-references...I know what you mean about not having much time, though,
and you just do have to leave enough. It's very hard to speed up an edit, and
very hard for me to predict exactly how long it's going to take.
Do Mi
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:58:14 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: beating me up
In-Reply-To: <0.594db916.2541db9e@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Hi All:
>After that, we have to be good to ourselves. Where? ... in what other
>profession? .... do you see such a push for perfection?!! Programmers have
>to de-bug. They get to remove the errors and hold their heads up high while
>doing it. No shame in that part of their work. Software gets tested and
>things still show up in beta testing. Authors get edited. And edited, and
>edited. No guilty feelings there. It is expected that *their* creative
>product will undergo further polishing.
And when one is developing black and white photographs, (which I did on my
vacation a week or two ago) one has the opportunity to further change that
final picture either by using chemicals to change the color of the
photograph or a brush to cover up the so-called "rough" spots.
>We hard work, we submit intellectual masterpieces, done in difficult
>circumstances, for not-such-good pay many times. Our product is needed and
>used. This is good, and we should feel better about our work. Damn we're
>good! Here's to self-acceptance!!
>
>Janet Perlman
>SOUTHWEST INDEXING
Thanks for the moral booster. When one is in the midst of meeting
deadlines, it's frequently difficult to remember this.
Willa (trying to figure out how I can set up a dark room for developing my
own black and white photos....)
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:07:11 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Jeanne Moody <jcmoody@TOP.MONAD.NET>
Subject: Re: beating me up
In-Reply-To: <l0313032eb434f5625348@[209.91.3.30]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think we indexers tend to be perfectionists. We agonize over details
that others don't notice. To a certain extent that is what makes us good
indexers. A small error here and there may affect the usability of the
index for the few readers who happen to want information on that narrow
topic but not for all readers of the book.
It seems to me that I have found some "error" in 95% of the published
indexes that I have done. Some, admittedly, were things I didn't catch in
the editing process; some were made after the index left my hands. Some
weren't really errors so much as astonishment that I had made a decision to
do A instead of B and wondering whatever had possessed me! In one
memorable case, I couldn't locate a topic I knew was in the book. When I
finally found it in the index, it was in a logical place that would make
more sense to the intended audience than to me, the layman. If doing it
again, there would have been a double posting.
Most errors in published indexes are the work of indexing gremlins who
sneak in and do naughty things to perfectly good indexes en route from
indexer to publisher.
Jeanne Moody
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 10/21/99 at 1:01 PM Rachel Rice wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I just received my copy of a big job I did in August (for those of you who
>were in on it, the suicide book with the horrible names index that was as
>long as the subject index). When I sent in the index I felt really proud
of
>it, and thought I had a done a really good job. Well, I just looked it
over
>and saw at least 4 outright errors (what I consider errors) and several
>things that aren't really errors but that could have been done much
better.
>I spent a lot of time on the edit phase, and I even waited a day and then
>gave it a final going over, yet still I made errors. I did get good
>feedback from the editor, who I guess didn't notice the errors.
>
>How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant errors?
>For example, I cross referenced "abuse" to two other locations, but didn't
>cross reference it to another that it should have crossed to. How could I
>have missed that? If I had gathered all the entries for abuse I would have
>caught it, but I guess I didn't think of doing that. Should I gather every
>key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or that I got
them
>all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of time. What can I
>do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me mad at myself.
I
>really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make mistakes. Not that I
>expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been
>there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated.
>
>Rae
>
> Rachel Rice
> Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
> Indexing, editing, proofreading
> http://homepages.together.net/~racric
> racric ICQ 31476947
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:11:24 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello all:
I have attached what I hope to use as my indexing survey. Please
e-mail all comments off-list. You are more than welcome to use this
survey in any way you want.
Hope this helps everyone.
Rob
--
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
--------------314DD3CC5AD63A2DAFA8D4DC
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--------------314DD3CC5AD63A2DAFA8D4DC--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:23:15 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names of
numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi
Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I could
have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of
Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got to
thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name as
a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the
individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am
limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the individual
names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint).
Any opinions on this?
TIA. Nina
Nina Forrest
Looking Up Indexing Service
e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Jermey <jonjermey@HERMES.NET.AU>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:40 PM
Subject: indexing under broader topics
>If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however
>broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if someone
>looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New South
>Wales, and about Sydney.
>
>This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South
>Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states and
>territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be
>mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general
>reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states, eg,
>New South Wales'. Is there a better way?
>
>I find a similar problem with other types of texts, eg, cookbooks, where I
>really think fettucini, macaroni and spaghetti dishes should be grouped
>under pasta (if I run out of macaroni I have no objection to making 'spiral
>pasta cheese').
>
>(This question is prompted by me looking up Ku-ring-gai Chase National
Park,
>but not finding info I knew was there, because it was indexed only under
>'Bobbin Head').
>
>Glenda.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:48:25 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <381084A1.130FDC7C@brown-inc.com>
from "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM> contains these words:
> There must be a misunderstanding
There's plenty of scope for misunderstanding, so long as we continue
to use the term "Web indexing" without spelling out what is meant by it.
I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing:
1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites;
2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered
throughout numerous files on that site;
3) indexing information contained within one HTML file.
Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to
identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site
indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and
"file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella
term for all three?
Other suggestions welcome!
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:20:23 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Linda:
How about these definitions to refine yours:
Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites
Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site
HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
Rob
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:36:42 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Norcross <norcross@IPASS.NET>
Subject: Need help: C++ functions and interfaces and index space
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear Collective Wisdom, Computer-book Division:
I am indexing a 700-page book on creating 3D Games with a
product called DirectX. Due today. The product has a C++
type of programming language, including objects,
functions/methods, interfaces, structures, macros, etc.
I've done this type of programming manual before, but my
brain is fried after a solid week on the monster.
Here's my question:
I have a function, let's call it the ABC function, that is
implemented by several interfaces. So I have these entries:
ABC function
AnotherSilly interface
ObjectsStrided interface
ZooHereInMyHouse interface
OK, that's cool.
I have another function, the XYZ function, that is
implemented by only one interface. The entry I have now
(beginning final edit) is:
XYZ function
OneLoneTransformationObject interface
Do I have to make one single main entry like this:
XYZ function, OneLoneTransformationObject interface, 56-63
...that is, identifying the interface as well as the
function?
Or can I just say:
XYZ function, 56-63
and leave it at that.
The index is HUGE already, and many of the interfaces and
the functions have VeryLongBiCapitalizedNames and they
always wrap onto the next line in a 2-column index, making
it very hard to read. I'd like to just put the function
name.
Thoughts?
Ann
Ann Norcross
Crossover Information, Inc.
mailto:norcross@ipass.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:32:35 -0400
Reply-To: "David K. Ream" <DaveReam@LevTechInc.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David K. Ream" <DaveReam@LEVTECHINC.COM>
Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
It's even worse than noted below.
There are indexes on the web with links to pages on the web either on the
same or different sites,
but there are also indexes on the web that don't link.
These are just web versions of printed indexes.
Fran Lennie has suggested for this latter situation the term: web-mounted
indexing.
Dave Ream
Leverage Technologies, Inc.
Cleveland, OH 44141-2939
Toll-free (NA) 888-838-1203
Local/Fax 440-838-1203
E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com
Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 2:48 PM
Subject: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
> The message <381084A1.130FDC7C@brown-inc.com>
> from "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM> contains these words:
>
> > There must be a misunderstanding
>
>
> There's plenty of scope for misunderstanding, so long as we continue
> to use the term "Web indexing" without spelling out what is meant by it.
>
> I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing:
>
> 1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites;
> 2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered
> throughout numerous files on that site;
> 3) indexing information contained within one HTML file.
>
>
> Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to
> identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site
> indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and
> "file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella
> term for all three?
>
> Other suggestions welcome!
>
> --
> Linda Sutherland
> linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:51:06 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services"
<abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Web indexing definitions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I like these - they would be helpful to me. Ardith
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Robert A. Saigh <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual =
indexing]
> Linda:
>=20
> How about these definitions to refine yours:
>=20
> Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites
> Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site
> HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
>=20
> Rob
>=20
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:53:59 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Need help: C++ functions and interfaces and index space
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ann,
Why not? I don't like using only one single subheading after the main entry
anyway. Many or none, IMHO. We aren't obligated to qualify the page locator.
The word index, going back to its Latin root "indicare", means to indicate.
A page locator indicates. It isn't always necessary "to inform" about the
entry. Sometimes it is nice to do so, as when there are many
undifferentiated locators. Some might disagree, but that is the "rule" I go
by.
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:11:52 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET>
Subject: shortening an index
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Recently I took Christin Keck up on her offer to pass on Maria Coughlin's
list of measures for shortening an index. I've edited it and added to it
and am passing it on for others to reorganize and add to and share in turn
if they like.
Shortening an Index
Find out how much needs to be cut and ask about the possibility of getting
more pages, and then:
Suggest using smaller type
Suggest using shorter indents
Suggest using a different number of columns -- perhaps
Suggest eliminating any extra space between letter groups
Suggest eliminating header letters
Suggest compressing (eliding) page ranges
Suggest using run-in style
and then:
Verify use of _See_ refs instead of extensive double-posting
Shorten wordings in headings
Eliminate subsubheadings
Eliminate qualifiers of lesser importance
Eliminate subheadings of lesser importance
Eliminate cross-references of lesser importance (including acronyms)
and then:
Suggest adding any unimplemented turnover line hyphenation
Suggest compressing (condensing) the type in entries that barely turn over
All the best,
Michael
Brackney Indexing Service
134 Kathleen Way
Grass Valley, CA 95945
530-272-7088
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:11:55 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET>
Subject: comparing documents
In-Reply-To: <199910210113.VAA04200@superaje.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:12 PM 10/20/99 -0400, Keith McQuay wrote:
>
>When indexing in Word I am afraid I might accidentally insert a character or
>zap a paragraph. At the end of a job I turn on track changes and do a quick
>page down to check for accidents. Does anyone use compare document to do
>this?
>
>I've tried saving the starting version under a different filename, then
>comparing the indexed version, and either it's not working or I'm not seeing
>what it is showing me. Also, for one file I got the message that the
>document I'm comparing to already has changes do I want to continue. Don't
>know what that means either...
>
>I seem to remember compare document taking you to each change in the
>document from beginning to end but maybe that was WordPerfect.
>
>Any advice?
Keith, if you don't mind not seeing special formatting like italics in your
compared documents you could save ASCII versions of your old and new Word
versions, and then go to DOS and compare the files by first creating a
compare file, which will list the differences between the files, with the
"fc" command, as in
fc oldfile newfile > compfile
and by then reading the compare file in your word processor.
Users of indexing programs can compare their old and current files in the
same way of course.
Michael
Brackney Indexing Service
134 Kathleen Way
Grass Valley, CA 95945
530-272-7088
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:22:04 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Norcross <norcross@IPASS.NET>
Subject: Re: Need help: C++ functions and interfaces and index space
In-Reply-To: <0.6abd5f2.25421ad7@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Good. There's a consensus from you, me, and Dick. Yay!
Thanks much.
Ann
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indexer's Discussion Group
> [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf
> Of JPerlman@AOL.COM
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 3:54 PM
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Re: Need help: C++ functions and
> interfaces and index space
>
>
> Ann,
>
> Why not? I don't like using only one single
> subheading after the main entry
> anyway. Many or none, IMHO. We aren't obligated
> to qualify the page locator.
>
> The word index, going back to its Latin root
> "indicare", means to indicate.
> A page locator indicates. It isn't always
> necessary "to inform" about the
> entry. Sometimes it is nice to do so, as when
> there are many
> undifferentiated locators. Some might disagree,
> but that is the "rule" I go
> by.
>
> Janet Perlman
> SOUTHWEST INDEXING
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:43:31 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names
of
> numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi
> Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I
could
> have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of
> Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got
to
> thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name
as
> a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the
> individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am
> limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the
individual
> names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint).
In general, I think that if people are important enough to index, they
ought to have their own entry. Don't "hide" them in a generic entry where
many readers will miss them. The only time I've violated this principle is
when the publisher preferred the individuals under a generic term
("artists" or "scientists"), and that was for a children's book index where
the entire index fit on a two-page spread, and so could be seen in its
entirety.
I appreciate your desire to gather these people together by occupation, but
take another look and make sure you aren't over-indexing. You need to be
sure that including the topics "popes" and "rabbis" is relevant in the
context of the book. In this case, I'd be inclined to index the
individuals under their own names, and cross-reference (generically or
specifically) from rabbis and from popes. Or even leave out "rabbis" and
"popes" as entries entirely, unless there is information about rabbis
and/or popes in general. Of course, it depends on your audience, but if I
as a reader look up "rabbis," I don't necessarily expect a list of them,
just information about rabbis as a group. And if I need information about
a specific person -- very likely to happen, especially in the case of
well-known or historical figures -- I am *not* likely to figure out that I
have to look under a generic term to find it.
Incidentally, I think this desire to pull all the threads together -- even
when it is unnecessary or detrimental -- is a common indexers' malady. I
fight it myself -- frequently. We're so used to thinking hierarchically
and relationally that it goes against the grain to realize that
occasionally, it isn't necessary or desirable, it's just overkill. We
can't stand the idea that there might be an "unattached" thread in our
carefully woven index. This syndrome needs a name. Ideas, anyone?
JMHO,
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:25:10 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Elliot Linzer <elinzer@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Small Claims Court, again
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This posting should be of interest to those subscribers in the five
boroughs of the City of New York. The rest of you can delete this
message now.
I just returned from the Small Claims Court in Queens. I was there over
a non-work related problem. It seems that the jurisdiction of Small
Claims Courts in the City of New York has been narrowed and the fees have
increased.
Now, the Small Claims Courts in the City of New York can be used to sue
defendants in the City of New York only. They can not be used against
parties elsewhere in the state of New York. I am not sure what one does
if one has a problem with somebody in the rest of New York State
involving a small amount of money. I hate to think that the only option
available is the Civil Court, which, in New York, is virtually impossible
to navigate without a lawyer.
The fees for using the Small Claims Courts are $10 for amounts under
$1000 and $15 for amounts between $1000 and $3000.
| Elliot Linzer
| 43-05 Crommelin Street
| Flushing, New York 11355
| (718) 353-1261
| elinzer@juno.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:27:12 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <003001bf1cc4$5a74e040$0fb136cf@bna.com>
from "David K. Ream" <DaveReam@LevTechInc.com> contains these words:
> There are indexes on the web with links to pages on the web either on the
> same or different sites,
> but there are also indexes on the web that don't link.
> These are just web versions of printed indexes.
> Fran Lennie has suggested for this latter situation the term: web-mounted
> indexing.
I wouldn't have thought of these as Web indexes. Nor would I include
printed indexes which direct the user to Web sites, but are not
themselves on the Web.
>From our - i.e. indexers' - point of view, the terms "Web index" and
"Web indexing" have to be restricted to indexes on the Web which
serve to locate information in other Web files. I say "have to",
because those are the circumstances which require us to learn new
skills and techniques, and/or adapt existing ones to the new
environment. Without that requirement, there would be no point in
distinguishing Web indexing from "traditional" indexing.
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:27:25 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <3810B8F7.5DDECE35@mindspring.com>
from "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM> contains these words:
> How about these definitions to refine yours:
> Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites
> Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site
> HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
I can certainly live with those if it turns out that the majority of
indexers here prefer them, though honesty bids me say that I think my
own suggested terms make the distinctions more immediately clear.
But then I would think that, wouldn't I? :-)
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:36:27 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Linda Sutherland wrote:
>
> The message <3810B8F7.5DDECE35@mindspring.com>
> from "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM> contains these words:
>
> > How about these definitions to refine yours:
>
> > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites
> > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site
> > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
>
> I can certainly live with those if it turns out that the majority of
> indexers here prefer them, though honesty bids me say that I think my
> own suggested terms make the distinctions more immediately clear.
I'd suggest these:
"web index" as a single index to the content of multiple web sites
"web site index" or "site index" as a single index to the content
of a single site
Both are a kind of "HTML index," because HTML is the medium in which you're working. (Also, HTML Help and JavaHelp are both HTML-based, but indexes are presented in a different manner.)
I can't think of a useful example of indexing within a single file.
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:53:57 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET>
Subject: dropping single subheadings
In-Reply-To: <NCBBKBIMODPDKJAOLFGNAEJKCEAA.norcross@ipass.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:36 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Ann wrote:
>
>. . .
>I have another function, the XYZ function, that is
>implemented by only one interface. The entry I have now
>(beginning final edit) is:
>
>XYZ function
> OneLoneTransformationObject interface
>
>Do I have to make one single main entry like this:
>
>XYZ function, OneLoneTransformationObject interface, 56-63
>
>...that is, identifying the interface as well as the
>function?
>
>Or can I just say:
>
>XYZ function, 56-63
>
>and leave it at that.
>
>The index is HUGE already, and many of the interfaces and
>the functions have VeryLongBiCapitalizedNames and they
>always wrap onto the next line in a 2-column index, making
>it very hard to read. I'd like to just put the function
>name.
>
>Thoughts?
At 03:53 PM 10/22/99 EDT, Janet replied:
>
>Ann,
>
>Why not? I don't like using only one single subheading after the main entry
>anyway. Many or none, IMHO. We aren't obligated to qualify the page
locator.
>
>The word index, going back to its Latin root "indicare", means to indicate.
>A page locator indicates. It isn't always necessary "to inform" about the
>entry. Sometimes it is nice to do so, as when there are many
>undifferentiated locators. Some might disagree, but that is the "rule" I go
>by.
And at 04:22 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Ann wrote:
>Good. There's a consensus from you, me, and Dick. Yay!
>
>Thanks much.
Uh oh! Sounds like I'm going to be a bit of "a stick in the mud"! (I
wonder where this funny expression comes from?) Oh well! No harm
intended! ;-)
Ann, since the function in this case has only one implementation it does
not _have_ to be identified, but if space is not much of an issue in this
index since it's already so huge I'd keep the single subheading in order to
maintain the form for such entries; and again, since this function has only
one implementation, I'd reformat the subheading in parentheses as a gloss
or qualifier. Unless there are many such cases, dropping a few subheadings
like this won't do much to improve readability in this index, whereas
maintaining the form has some intrinsic value and might help the reader a
little. Still, in this case it really doesn't matter very much.
Janet, I am one who does disagree with the "rule" of dropping single
subheadings. Surely we need not to overinform or "rewrite the book" in
long, wordy subheadings, but if a subheading is a good one -- clear and
concise, etc. -- it serves to give the reader a better idea of what its
locator indicates regardless of whether it stands alone or with other
subheadings. Dropping it could easily lead a reader to look for something
that keeping it in would exclude.
In saying this I know I'm not saying anying at all new. I'm bringing it up
because I've heard some of us say, as you are saying, that they drop single
subheadings as a matter of style or personal preference, and I want to
query this sense of style on behalf of -- you guessed it! -- our dear ole
reader.
So, I'd like to know, where does this style come from? Does anybody know?
I didn't learn it during my training. Did I overlook it somewhere in the
standard books on indexing?
And what about this style? Does it best serve the reader, or not?
Cheers!, and all the best,
Michael
Brackney Indexing Service
134 Kathleen Way
Grass Valley, CA 95945
530-272-7088
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:56:56 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: DStaub11@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: beating me up
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<< > Primarily it's a matter of finding it easier to compare the index copy to
> the printed page if both are in exactly the same order....
<< This is not possible for those indexers who tend to build the index as they
go. >>
Macrex can take an index built-as-you-go and transfer it into page number
order and back very easily. (I thought Cindex and Sky could do this too?) It
also has a new feature: lists of entries and commands in reverse order.
To tell you the truth, I don't usually do an exact page check, but it does
come in handy in certain situations.
Do Mi Stauber
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 01:02:29 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: DStaub11@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dan wrote:
<< I'm wondering if anyone has developed standard index editing markup
symbols? >>
I have little abbreviations like the ones you suggested--they've just
developed intuitively; I haven't needed to make a list of them or anything.
For what it's worth, I'll drag some out of my subconscious. These appear
right in the relevant entries, coded to neither print nor affect
alphabetization in Macrex. I do delete them before finishing, but if I missed
any, they would disappear when I put the index into my word processor.
rew: reword (sometimes appears with a list of possible phrases)
dp: double-post
mr: more (get more page references)
mrfr: more from (look under a specific heading and check its page refs to see
if any belong here. sometimes I just copy the string of page refs into the
note area)
mrbfr: more before (I started picking it up at this page number--look at all
the pages before that)
cb: checkback (scan the book looking for this entry)
bd: break down (make subheads for a main head) (although I try to get myself
to do this as I go)
vs: versus (compare this heading to another similar one)
Do Mi
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:58:58 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Tree Bressen <tree@IC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
In-Reply-To: <1999102219482572477@zetnet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi,
Linda wrote:
>I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing:
>
>1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites;
>2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered
>throughout numerous files on that site;
>3) indexing information contained within one HTML file.
>
>Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to
>identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site
>indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and
>"file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella
>term for all three?
Of the suggestions i've read so far, this one sounds the clearest to me.
Cheers,
--Tree
------------------------------------------------------
Tree Bressen
2244 Alder St.
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 343-5023
tree@ic.org
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:34:18 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: beating me up
In-Reply-To: <0.6764afa4.25429a18@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
A
>Macrex can take an index built-as-you-go and transfer it into page number
>order and back very easily. (I thought Cindex and Sky could do this too?)
Hi All:
Yes, Cindex can do a page order sort easily.
Willa (looking forward to playing contra dance music for many hours today...)
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:52:28 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM>
Subject: Re: beating me up
MIME-Version: 1.0
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----- Original Message -----
From: <DStaub11@AOL.COM>
To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: beating me up
> << > Primarily it's a matter of finding it easier to compare the index
copy to
> > the printed page if both are in exactly the same order....
>
> << This is not possible for those indexers who tend to build the index as
they
> go. >>
>
> Macrex can take an index built-as-you-go and transfer it into page number
> order and back very easily. (I thought Cindex and Sky could do this too?)
It
> also has a new feature: lists of entries and commands in reverse order.
>
> To tell you the truth, I don't usually do an exact page check, but it
does
> come in handy in certain situations.
>
> Do Mi Stauber
>
Yes, it can. Sorry about giving the impression that it can't. My fault./Dan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:15:27 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <3811030B.E533248B@brown-inc.com>
from "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM> contains these words:
> I can't think of a useful example of indexing within a single file.
I can't think of an example where the index is in one file and the
indexed material in another. But I've certainly come across files
which include a list of internal links, allowing you to jump to a
specific section of the file.
Or am I stretching the definition of "index" too far by seeking to
include these? In some cases, the list can look more like a contents
list, certainly. But regardless of what it looks like, if it helps
the user to find the sought information quickly, shouldn't it count
as an index?
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:10:34 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Mary Ellen Brick <mebrick@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up)
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:46 PM
Subject: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up)
>This thread is great and it has really gotten me thinking. I'm wondering if
>anyone has developed standard index editing markup symbols?
>
>For instance, Rachel indicates that she circles things to pull out to main
>headings. What are some of the other things that need to be indicated on
>index drafts. Here are some ideas and possible symbols:
>
>1. subs that need to be made main heads [ M ]
>2. main heads that need to be made subs of another main head
> S-mainheadname ]
>3. cross-refs needed [ x-refs ]
>4. double posts needed (via inversion/via rewording) [ DP-inv ] [ DP-rew ]
>5. an entry that needs more locators (gathering related topics) [ Find
>(topicname) ]
>6. main entry that needs subs [ S ]
>
>I'm not sure what else, but there must be more. There are the standard
>editing symbols for spelling errors and the like also.
>
>I like to have a really detailed, organized system for everything or I
can't
>remember to do it. I mean, if I don't write it on a list, it ain't gettin'
>done! Ask the dog who ate hamburger and rice for almost a week because I
>kept forgeting to buy dog food!
>
>Dan
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Rachel Rice <racric@TOGETHER.NET>
>To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 5:42 PM
>Subject: Re: beating me up
>
>>
>> Next pass I read all the entries looking for consolidations or where I
>need
>> to expand, or whatever else I see. I make notes of things to recheck or
>> double check in the margin, circle things to pull out (I shoulda circled
>> abuse!), connect things that need to be consolidated, stuff like that. I
>> check that I double posted where I should have, made main entries of subs
>> wehre necessary, stuff like that. I have a whole ton of personal abbrevs
>> and symbols, sort of like editor's symbols, but all my own.
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:04:14 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sloan <lksloan@INFORMATIONUNIVERSE.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
In-Reply-To: <1999102219482572477@zetnet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My views on the two disputed programs for web indexing are simply a matter
of what is usefule to a spacific project. If I have 12 to 100 long chapters
of an online book to index I will probably use HTML Indexer. If I have
documents of 1-2 pages in length, then I would use a WEBIX type of tool. If
I have 1,000 to 10,000 or more short documents then I would go to meta
tags. It is not a matter of which is better but which is the most useful
for the job.
I admire Dwight for pioneering web indexing in all its forms and David
for providing a useful tool for indexing long documents. I would hope both
could live peacefully with each other. I would hope I could master at least
2 of not all 3 of these tools to be a Grand Master web indexer!
Linda Kenny Sloan
************************************************************************
Information Universe Lksloan@informationuniverse.com
Improving customer service through better information access
for aerospace and astronomy publications both online and print.
http://informationuniverse.com
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:47:47 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Linda Sloan wrote:
>
> My views on the two disputed programs ...
I have to point out: I didn't even know the two programs were *in*
dispute. It's certainly not my intention to put them at odds.
As Ms. Sloan says, a good indexer may want to have multiple tools
in his or her toolbox. Familiarize yourself with the strengths and
weaknesses of the available tools, so you can choose the right one
for each job.
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:55:13 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Linda Sutherland wrote:
>
> The message <3811030B.E533248B@brown-inc.com>
> from "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM> contains these words:
>
> > I can't think of a useful example of indexing within a single file.
>
> I can't think of an example where the index is in one file and the
> indexed material in another.
Most web-site indexes are set up that way. Come to think of it, most large books are probably set up that way, too. (I'm speaking of books created in Word or Framemaker, for example.)
>
> ... I've certainly come across files
> which include a list of internal links, allowing you to jump to a
> specific section of the file.
>
> Or am I stretching the definition of "index" too far by seeking to
> include these? In some cases, the list can look more like a contents
> list, certainly.
Yes, those are more like chapter-level TOCs in a book.
> But regardless of what it looks like, if it helps
> the user to find the sought information quickly, shouldn't it count
> as an index?
I tend to think of an index using a more narrow definition, but I've been focused on back-of-the-book indexing (as a tech writer and help developer) for over a decade.
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:29:20 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
In-Reply-To: <3811E6B3.D3BA4D65@brown-inc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>As Ms. Sloan says, a good indexer may want to have multiple tools
>in his or her toolbox. Familiarize yourself with the strengths and
>weaknesses of the available tools, so you can choose the right one
>for each job.
Hi All:
Yet one one more thing for us to keep on top of (not good English, but...).
Would there be any chance of having demonstrations in each of these
programs in a noncompetitive setting at a future ASI conference?
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:35:36 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: web indexing programs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Hi All:
Would there be any chance of having these indexing programs demonstrated at
a future ASI conference? That might be a good opportunity to educate a lot
of indexers at one time in a non-competitive environment (hopefully).
Willa (who apologizes if this post went to the list twice but I'm still
learning to use Eudora 4.2 with two separate email boxes.....)
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:53:12 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET>
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
In-Reply-To: <199910222045.QAA26293@lycanthrope.crosslink.net>
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At 04:43 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Kara wrote:
>
>. . . I think this desire to pull all the threads together -- even
>when it is unnecessary or detrimental -- is a common indexers' malady. I
>fight it myself -- frequently. We're so used to thinking hierarchically
>and relationally that it goes against the grain to realize that
>occasionally, it isn't necessary or desirable, it's just overkill. We
>can't stand the idea that there might be an "unattached" thread in our
>carefully woven index. This syndrome needs a name. Ideas, anyone?
"gatheritis" (if not "gatherrhea")
;-)
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:17:09 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Willa MacAllen wrote:
>
> Would there be any chance of having demonstrations in each of these
> programs in a noncompetitive setting at a future ASI conference?
I hope to attend an ASI conference in the future. Until I can, we
can only support our customers when they demonstrate HTML Indexer in
various venues, as several have done already.
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:47:45 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
In-Reply-To: <381217C5.23689F8C@brown-inc.com>
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At 1:17 PM -0700 10/23/99, David M. Brown wrote:
>Willa MacAllen wrote:
>>
>> Would there be any chance of having demonstrations in each of these
>> programs in a noncompetitive setting at a future ASI conference?
>
>I hope to attend an ASI conference in the future. Until I can, we
>can only support our customers when they demonstrate HTML Indexer in
>various venues, as several have done already.
>
>--David
>
Kevin Broccoli demonstrated HTML Indexer during the Web Indexing
workshop in conjunction with the ASI annual meeting in Indianapolis.
Regards,
Larry Harrison
Co-Webmaster
American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/
and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter
[please remove NOSPAM to email me directly]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:20:03 +1000
Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Jon & Glenda <diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
In-Reply-To: <3810B8F7.5DDECE35@mindspring.com>
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> From: Robert A. Saigh
> Linda:
>
> How about these definitions to refine yours:
>
> Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites
> Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site
> HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
>
> Rob
Or, looking at it from another angle:
global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites
local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site
Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
Of course, any level may include the one(s) below it.
Jon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:20:08 +1000
Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Jon & Glenda <diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
In-Reply-To: <3811030B.E533248B@brown-inc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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And also programs can 'index' a website by putting all of the words in a
searchable system. I read recently in a mini-article called 'Helping your
reader locate key information' (and I must write in protest) 'Indexing a web
site means preparing it for an internal search engine - quite different from
the index you find in the back of a book.'
Glenda
> > > How about these definitions to refine yours:
> >
> > > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites
> > > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site
> > > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 17:29:53 -0400
Reply-To: "David K. Ream" <DaveReam@LevTechInc.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David K. Ream" <DaveReam@LEVTECHINC.COM>
Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc.
Subject: Re: web indexing programs
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Leverage Technologies will be demonstrating HTML/Prep at the ASI conference
in May.
This will be the new Windows version. It works with files from Cindex,
Macrex, or any word processor or editor.
Dave Ream
Leverage Technologies, Inc.
Cleveland, OH 44141-2939
Toll-free (NA) 888-838-1203
Local/Fax 440-838-1203
E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com
Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:35 PM
Subject: web indexing programs
> Hi All:
>
> Would there be any chance of having these indexing programs demonstrated
at
> a future ASI conference? That might be a good opportunity to educate a
lot
> of indexers at one time in a non-competitive environment (hopefully).
>
> Willa (who apologizes if this post went to the list twice but I'm still
> learning to use Eudora 4.2 with two separate email boxes.....)
>
> Willa MacAllen
> Information Organizer
> MacAllen's Information Services
> Boston
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:41:42 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <3811E871.3C4363A5@brown-inc.com>
from "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM> contains these words:
> Most web-site indexes are set up that way.
Most web sites consist of more than one file, though, and therefore
fit level 2 in my suggested categorisation. Indexing of a single file
is level 3.
I don't know of a practical example of a single file with an index
devoted solely to that file's contents but located in a separate
file. It's within the bounds of possibility though, that such a
construction may exist, or will exist in future. Web publishing is
still in its infancy, after all!
<snip>
> > Or am I stretching the definition of "index" too far by seeking to
> > include these? In some cases, the list can look more like a contents
> > list, certainly.
> Yes, those are more like chapter-level TOCs in a book.
<snip>
> I tend to think of an index using a more narrow definition, but
I've been focused on back-of-the-book indexing (as a tech writer and
help developer) for over a decade.
Dwight made a point to the effect that Web indexing requires
different thinking. I'm leaning towards the idea that a blurring of
the distinction between index and TOC may be part of that new
approach. Not that I think the two will become identical, just that
it may be more useful to regard them as lying at opposite extremes of
a spectrum, rather than as two totally disparate concepts.
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:20:34 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <000101bf1d9c$5ed53d00$bdcf23cb@pentium>
from Jon & Glenda <diagonal@hermes.net.au> contains these words:
> Or, looking at it from another angle:
> global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites
> local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site
> Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
Yes - those are neater than mine, but still express the differences
clearly. I'm tempted to switch my vote, but shall wait to see if any
other suggestions are offered.
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:30:05 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
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Readers may not know the names before they read the book, but what if they
want to find information on a certain rabbi or pope later? Certainly they
would look under the name. I would list under the name first. There may be
some contexts where *also* listing names under rabbi or pope would be called
for, but most of the time readers would be looking for information on the
*topic* of rabbis or popes under those headings, not the names of
individuals.
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
> On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names
of
> numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi
> Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I
could
> have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of
> Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got
to
> thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name
as
> a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the
> individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am
> limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the
individual
> names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint).
>
> Any opinions on this?
>
> TIA. Nina
>
> Nina Forrest
> Looking Up Indexing Service
> e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Jermey <jonjermey@HERMES.NET.AU>
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
> Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:40 PM
> Subject: indexing under broader topics
>
>
> >If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however
> >broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if
someone
> >looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New
South
> >Wales, and about Sydney.
> >
> >This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South
> >Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states
and
> >territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be
> >mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general
> >reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states,
eg,
> >New South Wales'. Is there a better way?
> >
> >I find a similar problem with other types of texts, eg, cookbooks, where
I
> >really think fettucini, macaroni and spaghetti dishes should be grouped
> >under pasta (if I run out of macaroni I have no objection to making
'spiral
> >pasta cheese').
> >
> >(This question is prompted by me looking up Ku-ring-gai Chase National
> Park,
> >but not finding info I knew was there, because it was indexed only under
> >'Bobbin Head').
> >
> >Glenda.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:35:38 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b437ceadd2c8@[192.168.97.4]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>Kevin Broccoli demonstrated HTML Indexer during the Web Indexing
>workshop in conjunction with the ASI annual meeting in Indianapolis.
Hi All:
I know that, since I was in the workshop on web indexing, which was
wonderful, btw.
I was just thinking that since the terminology and technology for indexing
the web has changed within a relatively short period of time that providing
a comparison of the indexing tools that are currently available would be
helpful for those of us who might eventually want to purchase those tools.
I do realize that vendors would have to travel to make this happen.
I thought the workshop that Marilyn/Kevin did in Indianapolis on indexing
the web was wonderful. I'd just like to see issues like this expanded as
much as possible. It's the only way that some of us will be able to
observe all the technologies that are in the market.
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:54:08 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Karen Lane <klane@KLANE.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991023202602.0096eb30@mail.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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boundary="=====================_5849926==_.ALT"
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At 08:35 PM 10/23/99 -0700, Willa wrote:
>I thought the workshop that Marilyn/Kevin did in Indianapolis on indexing
>the web was wonderful. . .
And let's not forget the third member of the stellar triumvirate:
Gerry van Ravenswaay. It was a Marilyn/Kevin/Gerry workshop.
Karen Lane, workshop assistant :-)
--=====================_5849926==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<html>
At 08:35 PM 10/23/99 -0700, Willa wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>I thought the workshop that Marilyn/Kevin did
in Indianapolis on indexing<br>
the web was wonderful. . .</blockquote><br>
<br>
And let's not forget the third member of the stellar triumvirate:<br>
Gerry van Ravenswaay. It was a Marilyn/Kevin/Gerry workshop. <br>
<br>
Karen Lane, workshop assistant :-)<br>
<br>
</html>
--=====================_5849926==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:45:45 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Blee811@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Web indexing--What I'm looking for
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Indexers,
This may be a totally naive question but I have a future project coming up
for which we are considering putting 50 years of a quarterly journal on a CD.
We would then like to have a comprehensive master index that you would
search, click on a page reference, and be taken immediately to that page in
that particular issue.
If we html-coded the entries on the pages it would be a massive effort. A
concordance might be useful as a starting point if we could then edit it.
Is this pretty much the same thing we are discussing, but on a CD instead of
out on the Internet? Is there software that would facilitate this? And, oh
yes I should mention, that this is for a hobby group and would be a labor of
love as a way of preserving the society's publications and making them
accessible. In other words, a totally volunteer, not-for-pay project. I
could get some help from other members, and I think there are a few that have
the right mindset for indexing decisions, but not very many. And the journal
was 16-32 pages in the early years, 48 pages for a long time, and has been 64
pages for a number of years. The page counts are per quarter, not annually.
I must be nuts, right? I should stick to my paid work on business textbooks
and software tutorials, right?
Bill Lee
Cincinnati, Ohio
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 00:59:29 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing--What I'm looking for
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Blee811@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> ... we are considering putting 50 years of a quarterly journal on a CD.
> We would then like to have a comprehensive master index that you would
> search, click on a page reference, and be taken immediately to that page in
> that particular issue.
>
> If we html-coded the entries on the pages it would be a massive effort. A
> concordance might be useful as a starting point if we could then edit it.
You don't mention whether the journals are coded in HTML (rather than some other format, such as PDF). If they are, read on.
* If you want an index, you can use HTML Indexer to create it.
(You're right--it's the same on a CD-ROM as on a web site.)
* If you choose to do a simple concordance, you might want to look
at a piece of shareware called (sadly) WWWIndexWizard.
I don't remember the URL--it's been about a year since I looked
at it--but the usual commercial web sites (Yahoo, AltaVista, and
the like) should turn it up. I'm sure that's how I found it.
Good luck!
--David
P.S. You're not nuts. :) I bet most of us have done a bit of
"pro bono" work for the groups and causes we believe in.
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:34:09 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing software
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991023224957.0098e9a0@digital.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 10:54 PM 10/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:35 PM 10/23/99 -0700, Willa wrote:
>
>
>And let's not forget the third member of the stellar triumvirate:
>Gerry van Ravenswaay. It was a Marilyn/Kevin/Gerry workshop.
>
>Karen Lane, workshop assistant :-)
Sorry about that, Karen. I should have included everyone who was involved
with the program, especially since I was in the room with you all all day.
It was a wonderful program, as should have been evident by the number of
folks in the room that day.
Willa (who just saw a rather depressing movie last nite....)
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:12:00 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Blee811@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Web indexing--What I'm looking for
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 10/24/99 4:04:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM writes:
<< P.S. You're not nuts. :) I bet most of us have done a bit of
"pro bono" work for the groups and causes we believe in. >>
===>Thanks for the information, David. I'll look into the information you
sent. The organization is a plant society and the project would really only
serve the members, not a larger social issue. Still, it's something I'd like
to get done because the finished project would be useful to me.
Bill Lee
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:30:59 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Max Dalrymple <mdalry@SR66.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Tree:
Wouldn't meta tagging also be seen as a type of indexing? Although it is
either "all on one site" or "all on one page" indexing, it serves a
different purpose than regular indexing.
Max
mdalry@sr66.com
http://www.computerhealthinfo.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: Tree Bressen <tree@IC.ORG>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
>Hi,
>
>Linda wrote:
>>I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing:
>>
>>1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites;
>>2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered
>>throughout numerous files on that site;
>>3) indexing information contained within one HTML file.
>>
>>Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to
>>identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site
>>indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and
>>"file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella
>>term for all three?
>
>Of the suggestions i've read so far, this one sounds the clearest to me.
>
>Cheers,
>
>--Tree
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Tree Bressen
>2244 Alder St.
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 343-5023
>tree@ic.org
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:32:54 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Max Dalrymple <mdalry@SR66.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
How about adding:
Meta tag indexing - indexing for the purpose of search engine placement
Max
http://www.computerhealthinfo.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert A. Saigh <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
>Linda:
>
> How about these definitions to refine yours:
>
> Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites
> Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site
> HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
>
> Rob
>
>Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
>Robert A. Saigh, President
>6482 Lloyd Avenue
>Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
>
>314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
>fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 18:29:27 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <001d01bf1e24$479b9de0$215542cf@mdalrysr66.com>
from Max Dalrymple <mdalry@SR66.COM> contains these words:
> Meta tag indexing - indexing for the purpose of search engine placement
To take the second part first, there is one lesson which remains
firmly in my mind from the days when I was learning to be a
librarian. That is, if you're going to subdivide a topic, do it using
only one "characteristic of division" at a time.
The three levels I suggested subdivide the broad topic of Web
indexing according to where the indexed information is located - one
page, one site, or numerous sites. Your suggestion proposes
introducing another kind of division, according to purpose.
I've no problem with that in itself - any topic can be subdivided in
several different ways, and this one could probably be done by
"purpose of index" rather than by "location of indexed material". Not
perhaps equally well - for example, there are likely to be many more
types of purpose than there are types of location, and if so the
simplicity of the threefold division would be lost.
But whether that last speculation's accurate or not, the important
point, I think, is to use one way of division or the other - not to
mix the two, as would happen if we made your suggestion another
category alongside mine. That sounds like a recipe for confusion to
me, and since clearing up confusion was what I was hoping to achieve
when I started this thread, you'll appreciate that I don't want to go
down a road that might lead away from that goal!
I've stronger objections to the first part of your suggestion - the
label "meta tag indexing". For one thing, I'm convinced that we
should resist the temptation to confuse "assigning keywords" with
"indexing". The two aren't synonymous - indexing includes assigning
keywords, but goes beyond that by developing a structure of
relationships between the keywords, traditionally expressed via
subheadings and cross-references.
There's no mechanism that I know of for developing such a structure
of relationships when using meta tags, and for that reason I'd argue
that it doesn't make sense to describe their use as "indexing". I
know it often *is* described as such, but I don't think we're obliged
to accept that as correct, and I do think that accepting it would be
yet another recipe for confusion.
My second objection is that meta tags, if I understand correctly, are
directly associated only with the file which contains them. Strictly
speaking, therefore, they can only be applied at level 3 of my
suggested categorisation. (If they are used to assign keywords to a
site, it can only be done by placing them in a file which is at the
top of a hierarchy of linked files.)
If those two points are correct - that meta tags can be used to
assign keywords but not to create an index, and that they can be used
only in association with a single file - then it seems to me that on
both counts the term "meta tag" is too restricted to be appropriate
as a label (or part of a label) for a kind of Web indexing.
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:05:39 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Linda Sutherland wrote:
>
> ... meta tags, if I understand correctly, are
> directly associated only with the file which contains them.
That's correct, and it's one of the reasons I object to dependence on "keywords" META tags even in constructing an index (not to mention access by search engines).
As Ms. Sutherland points out, another shortcoming of "keywords" META tags is that they include no mechanism for developing complex keywords (hierarchy, multiple words, cross-references, and so on).
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:59:25 -0400
Reply-To: clmonroe <clmonroe@erols.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: clmonroe <clmonroe@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Just pondering
Folks,
I can't help but see some similarities between the plights of freelance
article writers and indexers, especially when it comes to things like not
getting paid by publishers. Do those of you who are practicing or aspiring
indexers also consider yourselves to be writers? I guess I have a very broad
definition of *writer* that includes indexers, abstractors, text organizers,
editors and poets. Do any other indexers feel as akin to these other types
of writers as I do? This matters a lot to me. The more I learn about indexes
and the more I practice making them, the more fascinated I am by indexes as
language constructs. The processes of creating and refining indexes seem to
reveal so much about how we think. Anybody want to share your own
ponderings?
Cindy Monroe
Monroe Knowledge Services
www.monroeknows.com
phone: (301) 897-2137
fax: (301) 493-4046
Cindy Monroe
Monroe Knowledge Services
www.monroeknows.com
phone: (301) 897-2137
fax: (301) 493-4046
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:59:34 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: SHughes512@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Just pondering
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 10/24/99 3:03:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
clmonroe@EROLS.COM writes:
<< The processes of creating and refining indexes seem to
reveal so much about how we think. Anybody want to share your own
ponderings? >>
Okay, I'll bite, I'm taking a break from the "creative process" 8-/
(Midnight deadline for Australian project). So I guess I can ponder. It'll
keep me from dwelling on author-indexer relations for a few minutes. 1) Yes,
I consider myself a writer and I tell the IRS that too. Try explaining
indexer in any other way to "them". 2) I came to indexing through a love
of database design, thesaurus development and information management. I'm a
capable writer of protocols, reports, procedures etc.. but I'm really awful
at fiction. Everything sounds like a police report. I guess that's why I
keep trying to write fiction, but I hide the results so no one in my family
gets a peek. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to tell stories that wander
around and develop some kind of tension.
From a business standpoint, we have a lot incommon with other writers.
There's an indexing section in the Writer's Digest, or at least, there used
to be. Freelance writers and freelance indexers have similar overheads. Of
course, travel writers have more fun.. maybe. I'd bet that we sometimes make
as much from the index as the writers finally get from royalties and that we
earn more per hour than most writers of fiction. Our concerns about
copyrights overlap. We face many of the same trends in technology and
electronic publishing. Freelancers, of all sorts, face the same insurance
and health care issues and time management problems.
Well, back to the grindstone. Anyone else got views on our status as
writers?
Sharon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:02:50 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Web indexing definitions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ardith:
Glad I could help.
Rob
--
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:07:11 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mary:
Not to sound like a party pooper here, but why use symbols at all?
Companies don't pay us enough. I have heard other indexers say they
mark up the manuscript and then index. That's double work. Why create
symbols; that's also double work.
I index as I go through and that's it. Even if companies paid me
more, marking up the manuscript and/or using symbols would not improve
the index -- at least not the way I do it.
My feeling is indexing is more of a business than an art. I treat
it like a business.
Rob
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:20:03 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: EF <efisher@STONEMEDIA.COM>
Subject: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering")
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF1E76.4D5BCFA0"
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I usually lurk because I'm an aspiring, rather than practicing, indexer. =
However, I wanted to jump into the discussion on the similarities =
between writers and indexers since I'm coming into indexing with a =
background as a writer. After researching indexing as a career, I've =
decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it seems =
like a natural career move after years as a freelance article writer and =
weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many of the same =
business problems but it seems to me that there are even more =
similarities between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's the =
deadline pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly =
the publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. A small =
town newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler material =
and self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure =
day, stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, this is a =
sore point. People make jokes about small town papers but who can write =
a first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories have to be =
written that way.)=20
As a journalist, I'm accustomed to summarizing an event, looking for =
the main points and sub-categories of an interview, and I think this =
will be useful in indexing. It seems that a love of words, especially =
the exact word or words to concisely convey the intended meaning, would =
be something else that a writer and an indexer would have in common.=20
As both writer and editor, I had to switch back and forth between =
right brain and left brain thinking. Doesn't an indexer have to do the =
same thing? Is this the similar cognitive processes you were pondering?
Clicker, who's learning so much from this list =20
=20
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF1E76.4D5BCFA0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I usually lurk because I'm an =
aspiring, rather=20
than practicing, indexer. However, I wanted to jump into the =
discussion on=20
the similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into =
indexing=20
with a background as a writer. After researching indexing as a =
career,=20
I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it =
seems like=20
a natural career move after years as a freelance article writer and =
weekly=20
newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many of the same =
business=20
problems but it seems to me that there are even more similarities =
between my=20
newspaper job and indexing. First, there's the deadline =
pressure. =20
Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly the publisher, to =
check over=20
one's work before it's published. A small town newspaper editor =
usually=20
writes all copy except the filler material and self-edits. Is it =
any=20
wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure day, stupid mistakes get into =
the=20
finished product? (Sorry, this is a sore point. People make =
jokes=20
about small town papers but who can write a first draft perfectly? =
With=20
time pressure, many stories have to be written that way.) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> As a journalist, I'm =
accustomed to=20
summarizing an event, looking for the main points and sub-categories of =
an=20
interview, and I think this will be useful in indexing. It seems =
that a=20
love of words, especially the exact word or words to concisely convey =
the=20
intended meaning, would be something else that a writer and an indexer =
would=20
have in common. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> As both writer and =
editor, I had to=20
switch back and forth between right brain and left brain thinking. =
Doesn't=20
an indexer have to do the same thing? Is this the similar =
cognitive=20
processes you were pondering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2> =
Clicker, who's=20
learning so much from this list </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF1E76.4D5BCFA0--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:52:06 +1300
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Simon Cauchi <cauchi@WAVE.CO.NZ>
Subject: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks to everyone who responded to this query of mine. I think we all
agree there's a problem, but there was no clear unanimity about how to
tackle it or even how important it is.
I was prompted to ask the question on receiving my gratis copy of Rachel
Barrowman's centennial history of Victoria University of Wellington, which
I indexed. Here's an example of a real entry from it, one of those which
(if I had a second chance) I think I would do differently:
Stout, Robert, _12_; administration building named after, 111; asks Jordan
to comment on university system, 30-1; chairman of Council, 381; and
government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; and music, 380;
opposes university reform, 31, 33, 34, 38; president of Hockey Club, 82;
proposes specialisation scheme, 22; proposes university college in
Wellington, 13-14; reforming speech (1886), 32; suggests permanent academic
head for college, 57; supports Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor,
30; unveils memorial window, 49; vision of a 'people's university', 15,
315; wants extension or correspondence classes, 21
To use such words as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports",
"unveils", and "wants" to determine the alphabetical arrangement of the
subheadings strikes me (now) as somewhat perverse, since these words have
so many synonyms, and perhaps the heading would be better if such verbs
were simply omitted. Perhaps something like this would be an improvement,
despite the lack of grammatical connection between the main heading and the
subheadings:
Stout, Robert, _12_; academic head for college, 57; administration building
named after, 111; chairman of Council, 381; extension or correspondence
classes, 21; government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; Hockey
Club, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; music, 380; specialisation scheme,
22; speech (1886), 32; Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, 30;
university college in Wellington, 13-14; university reform, 30-1, 33, 34,
38; vision of a 'people's university', 15, 315
But as Michael Wyatt said, if the subheadings are not too numerous, it
probably doesn't much matter what order they are presented in, and the
limited time available for editing an index probably precludes extensive
reworking of subheadings.
Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand
<cauchi@wave.co.nz>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 05:50:19 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Max Dalrymple <mdalry@SR66.COM>
Subject: Re: Just pondering
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sharon:
One method of keeping your fiction from reading like a police report is to
show your fiction to friends and family and ask for criticism. The
suggestion is that you have two "friends" read your work before you submit
it to a publisher. Indexers don't have the time to do that and are working
in an area in which we are assumed to know what we are doing, and no one
"reads an index" as a fun thing to do over the weekend. Have you thought of
joining a writer's group? One advantage is the sharing of work and the
criticism one gets.
The other suggestion is that you try to write "police procedurals." The
DRAGNET series is a type of mystery, and it can be a fun format.
I also suggest you read some of Hemingway's short stories. "A Clean
Well-Lighted Place" is a short short story which is "about" several
concepts, none of which is directly mentioned. And it lacks the overt
sexism of some of his other stories. I've used it in public library
discussion groups. I frankly can't stand a lot of Hemingway, but that short
story is one of my favorite stories. Perhaps it is "an indexer's" short
story since you can examine it's "aboutness." Ooh - it's a good thing I
don't teach indexing, because I think I'd have my students index Hemingway
as a final exam!
I didn't find your e-mail address on your e-mail, so this is going to the
complete list. I think writer's need to be encouraged in their fiction
writing. -
One equivalent pricing technique is to compare and indexer's pay per word,
since author's are sometimes paid this way and frequently compute the
statistic. I've not read anyone on the index who's shared that information
(and I think it would need to be kept as an indexer's trade secret - authors
will howl if they find out).
Max Dalrymple, who will be indexing his own website this week and remembers
what Vonnegut said about indexing.
http://www.computerhealthinfo.com/
http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc/
-----Original Message-----
From: SHughes512@AOL.COM <SHughes512@AOL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Just pondering
>In a message dated 10/24/99 3:03:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
>clmonroe@EROLS.COM writes:
>
><< The processes of creating and refining indexes seem to
> reveal so much about how we think. Anybody want to share your own
> ponderings? >>
>
> Okay, I'll bite, I'm taking a break from the "creative process" 8-/
>(Midnight deadline for Australian project). So I guess I can ponder. It'll
>keep me from dwelling on author-indexer relations for a few minutes. 1)
Yes,
>I consider myself a writer and I tell the IRS that too. Try explaining
>indexer in any other way to "them". 2) I came to indexing through a love
>of database design, thesaurus development and information management. I'm
a
>capable writer of protocols, reports, procedures etc.. but I'm really awful
>at fiction. Everything sounds like a police report. I guess that's why I
>keep trying to write fiction, but I hide the results so no one in my family
>gets a peek. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to tell stories that wander
>around and develop some kind of tension.
> From a business standpoint, we have a lot incommon with other writers.
>There's an indexing section in the Writer's Digest, or at least, there used
>to be. Freelance writers and freelance indexers have similar overheads.
Of
>course, travel writers have more fun.. maybe. I'd bet that we sometimes
make
>as much from the index as the writers finally get from royalties and that
we
>earn more per hour than most writers of fiction. Our concerns about
>copyrights overlap. We face many of the same trends in technology and
>electronic publishing. Freelancers, of all sorts, face the same insurance
>and health care issues and time management problems.
> Well, back to the grindstone. Anyone else got views on our status as
>writers?
> Sharon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:41:34 -0400
Reply-To: clmonroe <clmonroe@erols.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: clmonroe <clmonroe@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering")
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF1ECD.200216C0"
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I knew you would all have different and very interesting perspectives!=20
I think that EF understood best what I was trying to say, that the =
processes of evoking and condensing meaning, organizing subjects etc are =
very similar in indexing and in other sorts of writing. I am not saying =
that either writing or indexing is the more honorable activity. I too =
have always thought that that A Clean, Well-Lighted Place is one of the =
best short-stories ever written. While it would be foolish to index =
fiction, it might be fun to take a short story and index it and see what =
sort of text you would come up with. Personally, it might answer my =
question of why when I try to write fiction I always end up with a poem. =
It might also be fun to take a short index and write a story from it =
(working backwards.) It would be amazing to see the different texts =
that would result. I think language is the best view we have into the =
brain, and if we can learn from our use of it how we think alike and how =
we think differently, then we might get closer to such practical things =
as better search engines. Anyone wishing to ponder further on such =
things can respond to me off list if they want. clmonroe@erols.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: EF=20
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 12:20 AM
Subject: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering")
I usually lurk because I'm an aspiring, rather than practicing, =
indexer. However, I wanted to jump into the discussion on the =
similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into indexing =
with a background as a writer. After researching indexing as a career, =
I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it =
seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article =
writer and weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many =
of the same business problems but it seems to me that there are even =
more similarities between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's =
the deadline pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except =
possibly the publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. =
A small town newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler =
material and self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high =
pressure day, stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, =
this is a sore point. People make jokes about small town papers but who =
can write a first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories =
have to be written that way.)=20
As a journalist, I'm accustomed to summarizing an event, looking =
for the main points and sub-categories of an interview, and I think this =
will be useful in indexing. It seems that a love of words, especially =
the exact word or words to concisely convey the intended meaning, would =
be something else that a writer and an indexer would have in common.=20
As both writer and editor, I had to switch back and forth between =
right brain and left brain thinking. Doesn't an indexer have to do the =
same thing? Is this the similar cognitive processes you were pondering?
Clicker, who's learning so much from this list =20
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF1ECD.200216C0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I knew you would all have different and =
very=20
interesting perspectives! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think that EF understood best what I =
was trying=20
to say, that the processes of evoking and condensing meaning, organizing =
subjects etc are very similar in indexing and in other sorts of writing. =
I am=20
not saying that either writing or indexing is the more =
honorable=20
activity. I too have always thought that that A Clean, =
Well-Lighted=20
Place is one of the best short-stories ever written. While it would be =
foolish=20
to index fiction, it might be fun to take a short story and =
index it=20
and see what sort of text you would come up with. Personally, it =
might=20
answer my question of why when I try to write fiction I always end up =
with a=20
poem. It might also be fun to take a short index and =
write a=20
story from it (working backwards.) It would be amazing to see=20
the different texts that would result. I think language is the best =
view we=20
have into the brain, and if we can learn from our use of it how we think =
alike=20
and how we think differently, then we might get closer to such practical =
things=20
as better search engines. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyone =
wishing to=20
ponder further on such things can respond to me off list if they want.=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:clmonroe@erols.com">clmonroe@erols.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:efisher@STONEMEDIA.COM" =
title=3Defisher@STONEMEDIA.COM>EF</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU"=20
=
title=3DINDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU</=
A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 25, 1999 =
12:20=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Writers & Indexers =
(was=20
"Just Pondering")</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I usually lurk because I'm an =
aspiring, rather=20
than practicing, indexer. However, I wanted to jump into the =
discussion=20
on the similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into =
indexing with a background as a writer. After researching =
indexing as a=20
career, I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing =
and it=20
seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article =
writer and=20
weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many of =
the same=20
business problems but it seems to me that there are even more =
similarities=20
between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's the =
deadline=20
pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly the=20
publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. A =
small town=20
newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler material =
and=20
self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure =
day,=20
stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, this is a =
sore=20
point. People make jokes about small town papers but who can =
write a=20
first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories have to =
be=20
written that way.) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> As a journalist, I'm =
accustomed=20
to summarizing an event, looking for the main points and =
sub-categories of an=20
interview, and I think this will be useful in indexing. It seems =
that a=20
love of words, especially the exact word or words to concisely convey =
the=20
intended meaning, would be something else that a writer and an indexer =
would=20
have in common. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> As both writer and =
editor, I had=20
to switch back and forth between right brain and left brain =
thinking. =20
Doesn't an indexer have to do the same thing? Is this the =
similar=20
cognitive processes you were pondering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2> =
Clicker, who's=20
learning so much from this list </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF1ECD.200216C0--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:14:08 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ilana Kingsley <inewby@BERYL.ILS.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cross-reference & multiple indexes
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991019111939.00993380@chesco.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thanks for everyone's ideas & comments.
I ended up using a minimal amount of cross-references and using lots of
sub-headings.
--Ilana Kingsley
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:57:05 -0700
Reply-To: nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I try to give the reader as much help as possible when
numerous subheadings are used, especially in run-in
format. I will often use passive constructions to bring
the key elements to the fore, thereby allowing these
sometimes forbidding blocks of text to be scanned
alphabetically in a more meaningful fashion. For
example, "reform of university opposed by" or
"Sunday tennis supported by" appeal to me here.
Although these constructions can sound a bit stilted,
I prefer them to some of the brief subentries in the
second version. For example, "Hockey Club" does
not clarify the relationship to the main heading (Did
he found it, belong to it, become president of it,
disband it?).
Nick Koenig
<snip>
>
>Stout, Robert, _12_; administration building named after, 111; asks Jordan
>to comment on university system, 30-1; chairman of Council, 381; and
>government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; and music, 380;
>opposes university reform, 31, 33, 34, 38; president of Hockey Club, 82;
>proposes specialisation scheme, 22; proposes university college in
>Wellington, 13-14; reforming speech (1886), 32; suggests permanent academic
>head for college, 57; supports Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor,
>30; unveils memorial window, 49; vision of a 'people's university', 15,
>315; wants extension or correspondence classes, 21
>
>To use such words as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports",
>"unveils", and "wants" to determine the alphabetical arrangement of the
>subheadings strikes me (now) as somewhat perverse, since these words have
>so many synonyms, and perhaps the heading would be better if such verbs
>were simply omitted. Perhaps something like this would be an improvement,
>despite the lack of grammatical connection between the main heading and the
>subheadings:
>
>Stout, Robert, _12_; academic head for college, 57; administration building
>named after, 111; chairman of Council, 381; extension or correspondence
>classes, 21; government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; Hockey
>Club, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; music, 380; specialisation scheme,
>22; speech (1886), 32; Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, 30;
>university college in Wellington, 13-14; university reform, 30-1, 33, 34,
>38; vision of a 'people's university', 15, 315
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:18:31 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM>
Subject: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexin
g
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all.
I'm working on Lesson 10 in the USDA course using Sky's demo version. In my
liberal first-pass through the document, I reached the 300-entry limit. Eek!
I'm ready to deepen my commitment to indexing and spring for the Sky's
Standard edition, but I noticed that the product allows only two heading
levels, not three.
Here are my questions:
--Is anyone using Sky Standard for part-time indexing (or even full-time),
and is this limitation a problem? In other words, do you get many indexing
assigments that require three levels (two sublevels)?
--Also, are there other limitations to Sky Standard that I should know about
that would affect being an effective part-time indexer?
Feel free to reply offline: kfield@stellcom.com
Thanks!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:17:08 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 21 Oct 1999 to 22 Oct 1999 (#1999-84)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dwight wrote:
>[...] very large sites [...] small sites or intranets
Apart from the obvious extremes, how do you identify a "very large" vs
"small" site? And why would an "intranet" necessarily be considered a
"small" site?
For example, the intranet we're currently building is likely to become
what I would consider "very large". (It's for a large multinational and
will access a huge number of files, everything from multimedia to
drawings to formatted and unformatted text.) That's what I'd call an
"obvious extreme". But in general, due to its more focussed nature,
maybe an intranet would have a built-in "smallification" factor when
comparing it with other sites and with printed books?
Does anyone have a way to draw a parallel between site size and book
size? Would the equivalent "size" be, for example,
- number of screens (at maximized browser setting) vs number of printed
pages
- number of web pages vs number of sections, chapters, or subsections
- number of web pages vs number of printed pages
- number of words/pictures vs the same (not counting the difference
between hyperlinks vs "see page xx" vs inline redundancies, I suppose)
- ??
A side issue: I think the "density" of a site is easily comparable to
the "density" of a book. What do you think?
RAH
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:56:37 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Dalindex@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time
indexin ...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 10/25/1999 11:23:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kfield@STELLCOM.COM writes:
<<
--Is anyone using Sky Standard for part-time indexing (or even full-time),
and is this limitation a problem? In other words, do you get many indexing
assigments that require three levels (two sublevels)?
--Also, are there other limitations to Sky Standard that I should know about
that would affect being an effective part-time indexer?
>>
I have been using Sky Standard as a full-time indexer for a year. So far, it
has worked just fine for me. I have had no need for sub-subheads and have
done a variety of types of books.
Debbie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:38:30 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM
Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time
indexin g
Karen,
I used Sky Standard for the USDA course and many practice
indexes. The two sublevel feature is quite adequate - it means you can
have a main heading, sub1 and sub2, which is probably all you'll need.
Sky standard doesn't automatically suppress leading prepositions,
but it is easy to write macros that do this (print the preposition but
don't sort on it). It's been awhile since I used it, but it worked
pretty well for me. The "bells and whistles" in Sky Professional would
really speed up your editing and allow you to handle more books at a
time. But you can decide later if you want to invest in that.
- Susan
***************************************
Susan Danzi Hernandez
BookEnd Indexing
susanhernandez@juno.com
(316) 789-0576 (Kansas)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:49:46 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time
indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Karen,
Sky Standard allows two *subheading* levels so it should be adequate for
almost all indexes. The limitation is the lack of some of the more powerful
tools for editing and checking for errors. This can slow you down
considerably in some indexes when, for example you have to flip a lot of
entries. If you can tolerate the extra time it takes the Standard Edition
can do the job.
For more details you may want to post you question to the Sky user's list at
SKYIndexUsers@onelist.com
Ann
Ann Truesdale
anntrue@mindspring.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM>
To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 2:18 PM
Subject: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexin g
> Hi all.
>
> I'm working on Lesson 10 in the USDA course using Sky's demo version. In
my
> liberal first-pass through the document, I reached the 300-entry limit.
Eek!
> I'm ready to deepen my commitment to indexing and spring for the Sky's
> Standard edition, but I noticed that the product allows only two heading
> levels, not three.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> --Is anyone using Sky Standard for part-time indexing (or even full-time),
> and is this limitation a problem? In other words, do you get many indexing
> assigments that require three levels (two sublevels)?
>
> --Also, are there other limitations to Sky Standard that I should know
about
> that would affect being an effective part-time indexer?
>
> Feel free to reply offline: kfield@stellcom.com
>
> Thanks!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:38:58 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM>
Subject: Thanks Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-t
ime indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks to all who've replied on and offlist. I misunderstood the literature,
and thought Sky allowed for only ONE subhead level. Since it allows for two
subheads,I'm sure that will be enough.
More than one person recommended looking into Macrex at this juncture. If
you use Macrex and have a moment, please reply and tell me what you prefer
over Sky.
Karen Field
Sr. Technical Writer
Stellcom, Inc.
kfield@stellcom.com
--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:42:44 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Natalie Boon <natalieboon@ICQMAIL.COM>
Subject: thesaurus construction for databases
Content-Type: text/plain
Mime-Version: 1.0
Hello all,
I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can anybody recommend anything?
Natalie
-----------------------------------------------------
Natalie Boon
natalieboon@icqmail.com
ICQ#: 52895289
Information Architect
Higher Studies Abroad Project
Institute for Leadership Development (ILD):
A United Nations Global Partnership Program
-----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:46:00 -0400
Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" <skysoft@MCIWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time
indexin g
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hi Karen,
I just wanted to let you know that SKY Index Standard Edition does
automatically ignore prepositions if desired. I think that Susan is thinking
of SKY Index version 4 - not version 5.1.
As has been mentioned, for most people, the main difference between using
the Standard or Professional Editions is going to be the speed at which you
can complete the index. The Standard Edition has all of the basics needed to
write professional quality indexes.
Happy Indexing!
Kamm Schreiner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers
SKY Software
350 Montgomery Circle
Stephens City, VA 22655
Email: kamm@sky-software.com <mailto:kamm@sky-software.com>
Web: http://www.sky-software.com
Phone: (800) 776-0137 or (540) 869-6581
Fax: (540) 869-6581
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:33:27 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET>
Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b439b424487e@[203.96.192.195]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:52 PM 10/25/99 +1300, Simon wrote:
>Thanks to everyone who responded to this query of mine. I think we all
>agree there's a problem, but there was no clear unanimity about how to
>tackle it or even how important it is.
>
>I was prompted to ask the question on receiving my gratis copy of Rachel
>Barrowman's centennial history of Victoria University of Wellington, which
>I indexed. Here's an example of a real entry from it, one of those which
>(if I had a second chance) I think I would do differently:
>
>Stout, Robert, _12_; administration building named after, 111; asks Jordan
>to comment on university system, 30-1; chairman of Council, 381; and
>government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; and music, 380;
>opposes university reform, 31, 33, 34, 38; president of Hockey Club, 82;
>proposes specialisation scheme, 22; proposes university college in
>Wellington, 13-14; reforming speech (1886), 32; suggests permanent academic
>head for college, 57; supports Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor,
>30; unveils memorial window, 49; vision of a 'people's university', 15,
>315; wants extension or correspondence classes, 21
>
>To use such words as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports",
>"unveils", and "wants" to determine the alphabetical arrangement of the
>subheadings strikes me (now) as somewhat perverse, since these words have
>so many synonyms, and perhaps the heading would be better if such verbs
>were simply omitted. Perhaps something like this would be an improvement,
>despite the lack of grammatical connection between the main heading and the
>subheadings:
>
>Stout, Robert, _12_; academic head for college, 57; administration building
>named after, 111; chairman of Council, 381; extension or correspondence
>classes, 21; government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; Hockey
>Club, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; music, 380; specialisation scheme,
>22; speech (1886), 32; Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, 30;
>university college in Wellington, 13-14; university reform, 30-1, 33, 34,
>38; vision of a 'people's university', 15, 315
>
>But as Michael Wyatt said, if the subheadings are not too numerous, it
>probably doesn't much matter what order they are presented in, and the
>limited time available for editing an index probably precludes extensive
>reworking of subheadings.
Hello Simon:
I wholeheartedly agree with your point that leading subheadings with words
such as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports", "unveils",
and "wants" is not as helpful for information retrieval as leading
subheadings with key words, but if you'd have eliminated them as you
suggest in your reworked list I think you'd have sacrificed too much of the
clarity of your subheadings through not making a judicious use of function
words. Here's another way of reworking your list based on how I understand
your original subheadings and on what I think is a minimal use of function
words to insure their clarity (and, for the sake of simplicity, on a
presumption about the university-centered context of the book that could
easily be a bit off):
Stout, Robert, _12_; on academic leadership, 57; administration building
named after, 111; as chancellor, 30; as Council chairman, 381; on extension
(correspondence) classes, 21; and government scientific establishment, 13,
20, 50, 161; as Hockey Club president, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49;
and music (on music?), 380; on reform, 30-1, 32, 33, 34, 38; specialisation
scheme, 22; on Sunday tennis, 80; vision of 'people's university', 15, 315;
Wellington university college proposal, 13-14
On your last point about lacking time for reworking subheadings, the
narrative form in which you conceived of and wrote your biographical
subheadings may seem more natural to you, but if so this is probably just
the way in which you learned to do it. If you now prefer such subheadings
written in another way you probably can retrain yourself fairly easily to
conceive of them in this way and never have to think about reworking them
from narrative style.
Best regards,
Michael
Brackney Indexing Service
134 Kathleen Way
Grass Valley, CA 95945
530-272-7088
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:03:35 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Tree Bressen <tree@IC.ORG>
Subject: methods & efficiency
In-Reply-To: <199910250402.AAA18135@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello,
Rob wrote:
>I have heard other indexers say they mark up the manuscript and then
>index. That's double work. Why create symbols; that's also double work.
>
> I index as I go through and that's it. Even if companies paid me
>more, marking up the manuscript and/or using symbols would not improve
>the index -- at least not the way I do it.
This statement fascinates me. I'm fairly new to the profession and the
list (currently indexing my 5th book, and just joined the list in August),
yet it's clear that there are many different methods in use by different
indexers.
So far my dollar/hour has been much lower than many other people's. I
expect simple practice will help raise it, and i'll likely upgrade my
software at some point. However, i am very interested in other ways to
improve my efficiency.
Currently i am one of those indexers who mark up the manuscript first, then
do the data entry chapter by chapter. I don't write out every detail on
the manuscript, but i underline or check off main terms, write or indicate
many subentries, and so on. If i didn't do this, i believe it would be
significantly harder to edit the index later, because i wouldn't have any
reference marks to draw my eye when i went back to refer to the manuscript
page. I am very curious to hear how Rob and other indexers who just go
straight through without marking text handle this?
Cheers,
--Tree
------------------------------------------------------
Tree Bressen
2244 Alder St.
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 343-5023
tree@ic.org
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:11:50 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <racric@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: web indexing
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
There's been a lot of talk about Web indexing which I've paid no attention
to as I haven't ever done it and didn't expect to do it, so now of course
I've been offered a project and have no clue how to do it. Fortunately it's
for a friend, with no time limit, so I have plenty of time to learn. Can
someone point me to a crash course? It's for a site index (what did we
decide on for that, intraweb index?).
Just goes to show me that even if I think I'm not interested in something I
should still pay attention. I still have no clue how to search the Index-L
archives. Could someone give me a crash course on that, too?
I was really pleased to see all the comments my post about beating myself
up generated. It made me feel a lot better, and I learned a great deal. I
hope everyone will forgive me for not sending individual thank yous, but I
got nearly 30 responses. I read every single one, and they were all of
great value.
Noncat lovers, delete now. For the rest, I have come up with an ingenius
(my humble opinion) way of keeping my cats off my monitor, which became
imperative after the other day when I came in to find 3 of them all trying
to shove each other off the monitor, meanwhile, I got to the monitor just
in time to keep it from toppling. So what I did was get one of my
rubbermaid outdoor little side tables, which just happens to fit perfectly
over the monitor yet doesn't block the air flow. On top of that I put a
sheet of aluminum foil which they don't like, and on top of the foil I put
a lot of strips of low-tack double sided tape, which they really hate. No
more cats on monitors.
THANKS!!!!!
Rae
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Indexing, editing, proofreading
http://homepages.together.net/~racric
racric ICQ 31476947
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:50:02 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: methods & efficiency
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tree,
Don't feel guilty for marking pages. I've been indexing for many years, and
have tried to change this modus operandi. I can't; that is the way I work.
I can't seem to read, think, and enter data on the keyboard all at the same
time. Just doesn't work for me.
Different people work different ways. Pick the one you are most comfortable
with, and stick with it. You might want to experiment, but in the end,
whichever is most natural and productive for you is the one you should stick
with, and don't let those "non-markup" folks intimidate you if you choose to
keep marking proof, as I do. :-)
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:55:05 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: cross-references
Comments: To: CindexUsers <cindexusers@onelist.com>,
SKYIndexUsers <SKYIndexUsers@onelist.com>,
Web Indexers' Mailing List <WINDMAIL@listbot.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pardon the multiple=list posting, but I'm seeking information from all users of all indexing tools: Cindex, Macrex, Sky Index, typewriters, 3x5 cards, and anythig I've overlooked. ;)
Specifically, I'd like to hear how each of you goes about cross-referencing:
* Create index entries, then go back and create cross-references,
or create cross-references along with "regular" index entries?
* Keep a list of cross-references separate from "regular" index
entries, or view them all in a single merged list?
I'm not so much interested in arguing about the "right way" and the "wrong way" as in hearing how you *think* about cross-references and the way you use your chosen tools to create them.
I leave it to your discretion whether to reply directly to me (dmbrown@brown-inc.com) or by way of the various lists.
Thanks *very* much for taking time to share!
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:08:30 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: web indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rachel Rice wrote:
>
> Can someone point me to a crash course? It's for a site index...
The HTML Indexer tutorial is certainly product-centric, but it also
includes a lot of information about files, anchors, and other valid
"targets" of your index entries; the significance of the directory
structure; the need to make index entries unique; and many other
aspects unique to a web-site index.
The tutorial takes about an hour to go through if you're doing the
exercises--significantly less if you're only plumbing the text!
It's included with the free demo, available at the HTML Indexer
web site.
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:13:18 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: BECohen653@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: cross-references
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Hi David,
I use CINDEX, but I'm not sure that's really relevant as to how I write
cross-references. I would say that I write cross-references at three points
in the process:
1. I write some cross-references almost immediately when I begin picking out
terms;
2. I write some as synonyms appear in the text;
3. and I write some when I am editing the index after creating entries.
In the first instance, I can often anticipate the need for a cross-reference,
especially when using terms with lots of obvious synonyms or hierarchical
relationships. So those I can write in early on. I also write
cross-references as I make connections between topics while creating main
headings and subheads. In other words, if a topic appears to be related but I
make a decision to put it in one place over another, I might write the
cross-reference as I see the need for it. (These are often markers for future
treatment of a topic, and I edit these over and over as I work.) Finally, at
the final edit, I usually find a few more cases of related terms that need
connecting.
At the end, I also replace blind x-refs with double-posts if the entries
aren't long. While working, I try to put the locators all in one place and
double-post at the end, to save time. Sometimes an interim x-ref holds a spot
for what will later be a double-posted entry.
I'm not sure if using any particular software makes writing x-refs easier,
but I do love the "verify" feature in CINDEX to check them. That saves lots
of time and energy I used to have to spend laboriously checking x-refs at the
edit stage. In fact, one of my editors says she has also been able to give up
what used to be a routine check she had to make, because she knows that
CINDEX takes the worry out of verifying the x-refs.
Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:05:10 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <racric@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: web indexing
In-Reply-To: <3814E2EE.8A69A572@brown-inc.com>
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>The HTML Indexer tutorial is certainly product-centric, but it also
er, Thanks, Dave, but I should have said, I have a Mac. I did check out the
demo but there doesn't appear to be a Mac version. :-(
Rae
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Indexing, editing, proofreading
http://homepages.together.net/~racric
racric ICQ 31476947
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:09:24 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Craig Brown <lastword@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: web indexing
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On 10/25/1999 5:11 PM Rachel Rice wrote (in part):
>Just goes to show me that even if I think I'm not interested in something I
>should still pay attention. I still have no clue how to search the Index-L
>archives. Could someone give me a crash course on that, too?
First, send a message to the address for commands
<LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> which contains the following message:
INFO DATABASE
You will receive a message back that has detailed information on how to
search the archive database via e-mail, replete with examples.
I recently used this for the first time and was very pleased with the
results. The search language is quite flexible. In my case, I wanted to
refresh my memory of the recent discussion of fictional characters and
submitted the following query (also to the address for commands):
Search 'fictional character' in Index-L
I then received a list of discussions in which that string occurred, a
brief snippet of the conversation, and a sample command which I could
cut, paste, and send to get the complete posts containing the string
'fictional character'.
hth,
Craig Brown
The Last Word
Indexing Services
(314) 352-9094
lastword@mindspring.com
http://lastword.home.mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:32:48 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Small Claims Court, again
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In a message dated 10/22/99 5:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
elinzer@JUNO.COM writes:
<< Now, the Small Claims Courts in the City of New York can be used to
sue
defendants in the City of New York only. They can not be used against
parties elsewhere in the state of New York. I am not sure what one does
if one has a problem with somebody in the rest of New York State
involving a small amount of money. >>
Elliot;
The plaintiff would have to go to the defendant's jurisdiction and sue him
there.
Patrick :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:56:52 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: web indexing
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Rachel Rice wrote:
>
> >The HTML Indexer tutorial is certainly product-centric, but it also
>
> er, Thanks, David, but I should have said, I have a Mac. I did check out
> the demo but there doesn't appear to be a Mac version. :-(
Ah. Sadly, that's correct. One day, if there's any way...
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:05:11 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
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Kara,
Thanks so much for your response and the explanation of the logic behind it.
The consensus was to index the rabbis and popes under the individual names
and I did that. My original question comes under the heading of WWITO? (What
Was I Thinking Of? - I don't know if this is an already used abbreviation,
but whenever I get a well thought out response like yours, WWITO comes to
mind).
I'm a new indexer and the information from experienced indexers like you is
invaluable.
Thanks, Nina
-----Original Message-----
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics
>> On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names
>of
>> numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi
>> Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I
>could
>> have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of
>> Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got
>to
>> thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name
>as
>> a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the
>> individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am
>> limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the
>individual
>> names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint).
>
>In general, I think that if people are important enough to index, they
>ought to have their own entry. Don't "hide" them in a generic entry where
>many readers will miss them. The only time I've violated this principle is
>when the publisher preferred the individuals under a generic term
>("artists" or "scientists"), and that was for a children's book index where
>the entire index fit on a two-page spread, and so could be seen in its
>entirety.
>
>I appreciate your desire to gather these people together by occupation, but
>take another look and make sure you aren't over-indexing. You need to be
>sure that including the topics "popes" and "rabbis" is relevant in the
>context of the book. In this case, I'd be inclined to index the
>individuals under their own names, and cross-reference (generically or
>specifically) from rabbis and from popes. Or even leave out "rabbis" and
>"popes" as entries entirely, unless there is information about rabbis
>and/or popes in general. Of course, it depends on your audience, but if I
>as a reader look up "rabbis," I don't necessarily expect a list of them,
>just information about rabbis as a group. And if I need information about
>a specific person -- very likely to happen, especially in the case of
>well-known or historical figures -- I am *not* likely to figure out that I
>have to look under a generic term to find it.
>
>Incidentally, I think this desire to pull all the threads together -- even
>when it is unnecessary or detrimental -- is a common indexers' malady. I
>fight it myself -- frequently. We're so used to thinking hierarchically
>and relationally that it goes against the grain to realize that
>occasionally, it isn't necessary or desirable, it's just overkill. We
>can't stand the idea that there might be an "unattached" thread in our
>carefully woven index. This syndrome needs a name. Ideas, anyone?
>
>JMHO,
>
>Kara Pekar
>Wordsmith Indexing Services
>jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:07:39 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ghg410@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Reagan biography index
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Dear Friends,
Why is this Reagan biography not being classified as historical fiction?
It is one of my favorite genres and this one sounds like an especially good
piece of historical fiction. Just having an index implies that this is not
fiction does it not? (No offense intended to the indexer.)
There was something unreal about an actor being president and now the
feeling of unreality has carried over to his authorized biography. What will
they think of next?
How did the Library of Congress classify this book?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:03:12 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "J. Naomi Linzer" <jnlinzer@SABER.NET>
Subject: editing tips (was beating myself up)
In-Reply-To: <l0313035ab43a841fa645@[209.91.3.30]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi all,
I really appreciated all the posts in response to Rachel's e-mail about how
to close the holes during final editing. Going through my index in page
order to see if all DP's and X-ref are covered makes me feel more confident
that I am editing systematically. (I'd like to avoid as many self-inflicted
bruises as possible, too! Thanks all.
Best,
J. Naomi Linzer: Indexing Services
POB 1341
459 Redway Drive
Redway, CA 95560-1341
Phone: (707) 923-4361
fax: (360) 838-5620
jnlinzer@saber.net
******************************************************************************
http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website.
****************************************************************************** ^Ý
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:34:59 +1000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Alan Walker <alan.walker@S054.AONE.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases
In-Reply-To: <19991025204244.21758.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net>
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At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon wrote:
>I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a
database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources
dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can
anybody recommend anything?
Start by looking at <http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk>
This site is the full bottle on anything to do with thesaurus construction.
Invaluable.
Alan
--
Alan Walker, Indexer
President, Australian Society of Indexers
10 Rockwall Crescent
Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia
Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176
Fax: +61 2 9358 5593
Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:56:24 -0000
Reply-To: Christine Shuttleworth <cshuttle@dircon.co.uk>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Shuttleworth <cshuttle@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Writers and indexers
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clmonroe wrote:
<While it would be foolish to index =
fiction, it might be fun to take a short story and index it and see what =
sort of text you would come up with
Not everyone would agree that it is foolish to index fiction. See the
bibliography on the ASI website for a number of examples of novels with
indexes, collected by Hazel K. Bell.
To name only two novels with indexes, I recently bought the following: Kiss
and tell by Alain de Botton, and Life: a user's manual by Georges Perec.
Christine
************************************************************
Christine Shuttleworth, Indexing & Editorial Services
Executive Editor, The Indexer
Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB
cshuttle@dircon.co.uk
************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:29:10 GMT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: web indexing
The message <l0313035ab43a841fa645@[209.91.3.30]>
from Rachel Rice <racric@TOGETHER.NET> contains these words:
> It's for a site index (what did we
> decide on for that, intraweb index?).
Don't think we've reached a decision yet - waiting to see if more
ideas appear! People who take the list in digest form may only now be
catching up with the discussion.
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:55:17 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: methods & efficiency
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Tree:
I drill down through the index. In other words, I start with
chapter titles, go to the headings, then the subheadings and then the
text. I go through the text in sweeps also. By the time, I reach
anything that's left, nothing usually remains.
Also, more and more, publishers are specifying maximum index lengths
which is fine with me because it shortens my job. At times, I have done
index jobs wherein I barely touched the text because most of the
necessary information was in the heads and subheads.
I realize this is probably not completely kosher (or, maybe it is),
but -- as I wrote in another e-mail -- the proof is in the pudding. I
never mark up the text, and they are still hiring me. Thank goodness
for that, too.
Hope this helps you become more efficient in your endeavor.
Rob
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:27:00 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Natalie Boon <natalieboon@ICQMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases
Content-Type: text/plain
Mime-Version: 1.0
Thanks for your suggestion!
On Tue, 26 October 1999, Alan Walker wrote:
>
> At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon wrote:
> >I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a
> database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources
> dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can
> anybody recommend anything?
>
> Start by looking at <http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk>
>
> This site is the full bottle on anything to do with thesaurus construction.
> Invaluable.
>
> Alan
>
> --
>
> Alan Walker, Indexer
> President, Australian Society of Indexers
> 10 Rockwall Crescent
> Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia
> Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176
> Fax: +61 2 9358 5593
> Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au
-----------------------------------------------------
Natalie Boon
natalieboon@icqmail.com
ICQ#: 52895289
Information Architect
Higher Studies Abroad Project
Institute for Leadership Development (ILD):
A United Nations Global Partnership Program
-----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:50:03 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: greenhou@EROLS.COM
Subject: How to search the archives easily
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There are much, much easier ways to search the index-l archives.
To search the archives prior to April 1999 go to
http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html
Fill in the little boxes and click the search button.
To search the archives after April 1999, when the list moved to a
internet-savvy server, go to
http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html
and click on the "search the archives" link
fill in the little boxes, and click the "start the search" button.
I have these two URLs in my bookmark file, labeled appropriately. Makes
searching the archives a breeze and I don't have to keep emailing the
listserver with programming commands in an arcane language.
Happy hunting,
Shelley Greenhouse
database indexer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:49:09 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: methods & efficiency
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Dear Tree,
I also index as I read the text. I don't mark up the pages and I try to make
my entries as complete as possible the first time I write them. I also put
in my cross references as I'm building my index. I find myself editing the
index as it builds (this is easy to do in Macrex). This may mean that I
re-write a main entry or combining or even separating a main entry as the
text material requires. But I usually do this while still indexing the
material and not during the final edit.
Also, though I might look through the text before starting a book a don't
read it beforehand. But I have found that reading the preface (which often
is not indexed) will sometimes give me a pretty good idea where the author
is going in the text. And experience in the subject also helps with speed as
I'm already familiar with the vocabulary and concepts in the text. For
example, if I'm indexing the political process I already know what "log
rolling" means and don't have to spend a few pages wondering what the heck
the author is talking about :-).
Sometimes I find that the subheadings in the text make good entries or
subentries, however, I always read the text as this is not always the case.
Sometimes text subheads are right on and sometimes they can be somewhat
misleading. Reading the text is the only way to tell.
I've found that indexing this way means I have to spend very little time,
relative to the indexing process, editing the final index. Most of my time
editing is spent looking for typos, awkward entries, the aesthetics of the
index etc. I then import the index file into Word, run a spellcheck (I'm a
terrible speller and I know it), return to Macrex to finish up the final
formatting of the index and make the .rtf file which I send to my client.
It's taken many years of indexing to allow me to feel comfortable creating
entries which are almost always complete on the first try. I also marked my
pages the first six months until I felt comfortable enough not to and I did
see my speed pick up considerably.
But I do feel that no one ever needs to apologize for their working method.
If marking up pages helps you to do a better job don't feel that you have to
stop just because someone else doesn't mark their pages. Or if you write
yourself notes or have three different versions of an entry while
working--that's just fine. We are all different and I do think, as someone
else said, the proof is in the pudding. The best validation is repeat work.
Being able to speed up your work and increase your earning power is
certainly a worthy goal. But don't feel that you have to do what other
indexers are doing. While it's good to ask and hear about other's indexing
processes (I'm interested in that myself) remember that we are all
individuals with different ways of thinking, creating, and indexing. And, as
long as the final index is useful to the reader, those indexing processes
are all just fine!
Increasing one's speed has a lot to do with just sheer experience. You'll
get faster as you find your own special techniques and confidence in your
indexing decisions (going back and double guessing yourself while indexing
tends to take up time!).
Good luck, doing your fifth index sounds as though you're on the right
track.
Best,
Sylvia Coates
-----Original Message-----
From: Tree Bressen <tree@IC.ORG>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 7:00 AM
Subject: methods & efficiency
>Hello,
>
>Rob wrote:
>
>>I have heard other indexers say they mark up the manuscript and then
>>index. That's double work. Why create symbols; that's also double work.
>>
>> I index as I go through and that's it. Even if companies paid me
>>more, marking up the manuscript and/or using symbols would not improve
>>the index -- at least not the way I do it.
>
>This statement fascinates me. I'm fairly new to the profession and the
>list (currently indexing my 5th book, and just joined the list in August),
>yet it's clear that there are many different methods in use by different
>indexers.
>
>So far my dollar/hour has been much lower than many other people's. I
>expect simple practice will help raise it, and i'll likely upgrade my
>software at some point. However, i am very interested in other ways to
>improve my efficiency.
>
>Currently i am one of those indexers who mark up the manuscript first, then
>do the data entry chapter by chapter. I don't write out every detail on
>the manuscript, but i underline or check off main terms, write or indicate
>many subentries, and so on. If i didn't do this, i believe it would be
>significantly harder to edit the index later, because i wouldn't have any
>reference marks to draw my eye when i went back to refer to the manuscript
>page. I am very curious to hear how Rob and other indexers who just go
>straight through without marking text handle this?
>
>Cheers,
>
>--Tree
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Tree Bressen
>2244 Alder St.
>Eugene, OR 97405
>(541) 343-5023
>tree@ic.org
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:31:49 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Kennedy <colfaxgp@MINN.NET>
Subject: Re: methods & efficiency
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----- Original Message -----
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
> I also index as I read the text. I don't mark up the pages and I try to
make
> my entries as complete as possible the first time I write them. I also put
> in my cross references as I'm building my index. . . . This may mean that
I
> re-write a main entry or combining or even separating a main entry as the
> text material requires. But I usually do this while still indexing the
> material and not during the final edit. . . . I might look through the
text before starting a book a don't
> read it beforehand.
That is exactly the way I have always indexed. Although I edit more than I
index, I've done a fair number of indexes over the years, for a variety of
publishers, and neither a publisher nor an author has ever complained about
one of my indexes. One of them was even cited in a review as a reason for
readers to buy the book's new edition, in which the index appeared, even if
they had the previous edition.
Carol Kennedy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:34:30 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: methods & efficiency
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sylvia:
I agree with you completely. Each indexer must do what he or she
finds comfortable. If the indexing speed and dollar return are
satisfactory by marking up the text, stick with that method.
Whatever works. I tend to enjoy avoiding the computer as much as
possible, so whatever speeds up the process (without sacrificing
quality) is for me. Right now, I am beginning testing Naturally
Speaking software (upgrade version) to see if I can use it exclusively
for indexing, ergo no typing. Theoretically, once the system is
trained, mistakes should drop and efficiency rise. In reality, I doubt
it.
Rob
--
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:14:13 -0700
Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charles Anderson <anderson@THE-INDEXER.COM>
Subject: Re: methods & efficiency
In-Reply-To: <3815F436.DEF67B4F@mindspring.com>
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I've been very satisfied with Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred for the
Pentium III. Training took about 10 minutes and accuracy is quite high. I
do find, though, that it's obviously not as effective with an index with
lots of unusual personal names or complex terms. For general subjects,
though, I estimate it reduces my entry time by about 30%.
Charles R. Anderson
the-indexer.com
PO Box 15642
Seattle, WA 98115-0642
Voice: 206-985-8799
Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax)
Web: http://www.the-indexer.com
E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com
Right now, I am beginning testing Naturally
> Speaking software (upgrade version) to see if I can use it exclusively
> for indexing, ergo no typing. Theoretically, once the system is
> trained, mistakes should drop and efficiency rise. In
> reality, I doubt
> it.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:43:37 -0400
Reply-To: clmonroe <clmonroe@erols.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: clmonroe <clmonroe@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering")
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Hi EF or Clicker,
I did send a follow-up to the list, but I am not sure it got posted. You =
did understand *exactly* what I was trying to get at. It was interesting =
to me to see that several people didn't get it at all. I have a pretty =
high opinion of small town newspaper people. My family owned a small =
paper in Illinois and my uncle was the editor until he died. Everyone in =
the family worked at the paper, even after it was bought by Gannett. I =
have a box of the old wooden type that they used to use. Right now I =
have a freelance job where I write abstracts of newspaper articles. =
Abstracting is also an interesting combination of right and left brain =
thinking. Thanks for your message.
Cindy
----- Original Message -----=20
From: EF=20
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 12:20 AM
Subject: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering")
I usually lurk because I'm an aspiring, rather than practicing, =
indexer. However, I wanted to jump into the discussion on the =
similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into indexing =
with a background as a writer. After researching indexing as a career, =
I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it =
seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article =
writer and weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many =
of the same business problems but it seems to me that there are even =
more similarities between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's =
the deadline pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except =
possibly the publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. =
A small town newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler =
material and self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high =
pressure day, stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, =
this is a sore point. People make jokes about small town papers but who =
can write a first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories =
have to be written that way.)=20
As a journalist, I'm accustomed to summarizing an event, looking =
for the main points and sub-categories of an interview, and I think this =
will be useful in indexing. It seems that a love of words, especially =
the exact word or words to concisely convey the intended meaning, would =
be something else that a writer and an indexer would have in common.=20
As both writer and editor, I had to switch back and forth between =
right brain and left brain thinking. Doesn't an indexer have to do the =
same thing? Is this the similar cognitive processes you were pondering?
Clicker, who's learning so much from this list =20
=20
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi EF or Clicker,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I did send a follow-up to the =
list, but I am=20
not sure it got posted. You did understand *exactly* what I was trying =
to get=20
at. It was interesting to me to see that several people didn't get it at =
all. I=20
have a pretty high opinion of small town newspaper people. My family =
owned a=20
small paper in Illinois and my uncle was the editor until he died. =
Everyone in=20
the family worked at the paper, even after it was bought by =
Gannett. I have=20
a box of the old wooden type that they used to use. Right now I have a =
freelance=20
job where I write abstracts of newspaper articles. Abstracting is also =
an=20
interesting combination of right and left brain thinking. Thanks for =
your=20
message.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cindy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:efisher@STONEMEDIA.COM" =
title=3Defisher@STONEMEDIA.COM>EF</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU"=20
=
title=3DINDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU</=
A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 25, 1999 =
12:20=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Writers & Indexers =
(was=20
"Just Pondering")</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I usually lurk because I'm an =
aspiring, rather=20
than practicing, indexer. However, I wanted to jump into the =
discussion=20
on the similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into =
indexing with a background as a writer. After researching =
indexing as a=20
career, I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing =
and it=20
seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article =
writer and=20
weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many of =
the same=20
business problems but it seems to me that there are even more =
similarities=20
between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's the =
deadline=20
pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly the=20
publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. A =
small town=20
newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler material =
and=20
self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure =
day,=20
stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, this is a =
sore=20
point. People make jokes about small town papers but who can =
write a=20
first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories have to =
be=20
written that way.) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> As a journalist, I'm =
accustomed=20
to summarizing an event, looking for the main points and =
sub-categories of an=20
interview, and I think this will be useful in indexing. It seems =
that a=20
love of words, especially the exact word or words to concisely convey =
the=20
intended meaning, would be something else that a writer and an indexer =
would=20
have in common. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> As both writer and =
editor, I had=20
to switch back and forth between right brain and left brain =
thinking. =20
Doesn't an indexer have to do the same thing? Is this the =
similar=20
cognitive processes you were pondering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2> =
Clicker, who's=20
learning so much from this list </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:57:44 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Ellauri, Mrs. Amanda C." <ellauria@PAHO.ORG>
Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases
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Look for MULTITES, it is a very good software for doing so...
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Walker [mailto:alan.walker@S054.AONE.NET.AU]
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 3:35 AM
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases
At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon wrote:
>I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a
database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources
dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can
anybody recommend anything?
Start by looking at <http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk>
This site is the full bottle on anything to do with thesaurus construction.
Invaluable.
Alan
--
Alan Walker, Indexer
President, Australian Society of Indexers
10 Rockwall Crescent
Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia
Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176
Fax: +61 2 9358 5593
Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2650.12">
<TITLE>RE: thesaurus construction for databases</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Look for MULTITES, it is a very good software for =
doing so...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Alan Walker [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:alan.walker@S054.AONE.NET.AU">mailto:alan.walker@S054.AON=
E.NET.AU</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 3:35 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for =
databases</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon =
wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that =
will be used on a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>database that will be placed on the web. I've =
been looking for resources</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but =
haven't found much. Can</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>anybody recommend anything?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Start by looking at <<A =
HREF=3D"http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk</A>></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This site is the full bottle on anything to do with =
thesaurus construction.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Invaluable.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Alan</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Alan Walker, Indexer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>President, Australian Society of Indexers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>10 Rockwall Crescent</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: +61 2 9358 5593</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au</FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:05:30 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: clenser@MCP.COM
Subject: building freelance pool
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
New Riders Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing
pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be
considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes
intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals,
MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists.
Anyone interested must be able to do embedded indexing in Word
and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine. We work under
tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects.
If you are interested, please send your resume to:
New Riders Publishing
201 W. 103rd Street
Indianapolis, IN 46290
ATTN: Cheryl Lenser
or email your resume as an attached Word document to
clenser@mcp.com.
Thank you,
Cheryl Lenser
New Riders Publishing
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:17:26 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: beating me up
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Darkroom no problem. Write back if you want details. John
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:20:15 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: methods & efficiency
In-Reply-To: <000001bf1fee$ac73a200$0300000a@0rqfz>
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At 01:14 PM 10/26/99 -0700, Charles Anderson wrote:
>I've been very satisfied with Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred for the
>Pentium III. Training took about 10 minutes and accuracy is quite high. I
>do find, though, that it's obviously not as effective with an index with
>lots of unusual personal names or complex terms. For general subjects,
>though, I estimate it reduces my entry time by about 30%.
>
>Charles R. Anderson
Hi All:
Has anyone tried the medical component to Dragon yet? If so, what was your
reactions?
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:27:01 +1300
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Simon Cauchi <cauchi@WAVE.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Stout, Robert, _12_; on academic leadership, 57; administration building
>named after, 111; as chancellor, 30; as Council chairman, 381; on extension
>(correspondence) classes, 21; and government scientific establishment, 13,
>20, 50, 161; as Hockey Club president, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49;
>and music (on music?), 380; on reform, 30-1, 32, 33, 34, 38; specialisation
>scheme, 22; on Sunday tennis, 80; vision of 'people's university', 15, 315;
>Wellington university college proposal, 13-14
Many thanks to Michael Brackney for his reworking of this entry. Some of
the leading prepositions won't do, but then Michael doesn't have the book
in front of him as I have. The general principles he puts forward seem to
me perfectly sound.
The reference to music on p. 380 is just another example of Stout's frugal
mind at work. Just as he hoped to get government scientists to do some
teaching of science on the cheap, so also he thought there might be a
possibility of gaining the services of the city organist to teach music:
"the organist would also be the professor of music, while the City would
pay his salary". (Nothing came of this bright idea.)
Really sometimes I despair of the arbitrariness of subject headings and
subheadings (especially the latter). This subheading might conceivably be
phrased in any of the following ways: "on music teaching", "conservatorium
proposal", "city organist proposed as music professor", "on collaboration
with city council", or "parsimoniousness" (with many more locators than
this one); and no doubt there are several other possibilities. There are
words in the text to justify any of these as index terms, except
"parsimoniousness". I think "on music teaching" is probably the best choice
among those I've been able to think of.
Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand
<cauchi@wave.co.nz>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:10:18 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Diane Brenner <dbrenner@JAVANET.COM>
Subject: Re: building freelance pool
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Good morning, Cheryl:
I saw your notice on Index-L and would like to be considered for inclusion in
the New Riders freelance pool. I am an experienced embedded indexer of
computer books; my long-term clients include Macmillan and Wrox, and I have
recently begun working for IDG. In addition, I am co-editor of a book on
computer-based indexing (Beyond Book Indexing), to be published this month by
ITT publications. I work in Word (I do not own Framemaker, but would be
willing to purchase it and learn to embed using it if there was sufficient
promise of work). I am also able to convert Word-embedded document to Quark
format.
I am attaching my resume. You can also check out my Web site at
http:www.dianebrenner.com.
Sincerely,
Diane Brenner
clenser@MCP.COM wrote:
> New Riders Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing
> pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be
> considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes
> intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals,
> MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists.
>
> Anyone interested must be able to do embedded indexing in Word
> and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine. We work under
> tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects.
>
> If you are interested, please send your resume to:
>
> New Riders Publishing
> 201 W. 103rd Street
> Indianapolis, IN 46290
> ATTN: Cheryl Lenser
>
> or email your resume as an attached Word document to
> clenser@mcp.com.
>
> Thank you,
> Cheryl Lenser
> New Riders Publishing
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Good morning, Cheryl:
<p>I saw your notice on Index-L and would like to be considered for inclusion
in the New Riders freelance pool. I am an experienced embedded indexer
of computer books; my long-term clients include Macmillan and Wrox, and
I have recently begun working for IDG. In addition, I am co-editor
of a book on computer-based indexing (Beyond Book Indexing), to be published
this month by ITT publications. I work in Word (I do not own Framemaker,
but would be willing to purchase it and learn to embed using it if there
was sufficient promise of work). I am also able to convert Word-embedded
document to Quark format.
<p>I am attaching my resume. You can also check out my Web site at
<a href="http://www.dianebrenner.com">http:www.dianebrenner.com</a>.
<p>Sincerely,
<p>Diane Brenner
<p>clenser@MCP.COM wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> New Riders
Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing
<br>pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be
<br>considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes
<br>intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals,
<br>MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists.
<p> Anyone interested must be
able to do embedded indexing in Word
<br>and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine. We
work under
<br>tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects.
<p> If you are interested, please
send your resume to:
<p> New Riders Publishing
<br> 201 W. 103rd Street
<br> Indianapolis, IN 46290
<br> ATTN: Cheryl Lenser
<p> or email your resume as an
attached Word document to
<br>clenser@mcp.com.
<p> Thank you,
<br> Cheryl Lenser
<br> New Riders Publishing</blockquote>
</html>
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--------------D0F093763AA608B01BFCB38B--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:48:36 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: greenhou@EROLS.COM
Subject: How to search the archives easily URLs corrected
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
There are much, much easier ways to search the index-l archives -
especially when you have the correct URLs. Thanks to Deborah Patton for
telling me to wipe the egg off my face, and tell you the two URLs are
**supposed to be different** so delete the previous version of this
message.
To search the archives prior to April 1999 go to
http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html
Fill in the little boxes and click the search button.
To search the archives after April 1999, when the list moved to a
internet-savvy server, go to
http://listserv.binghamton.edu/archives/index-l.html
and click on the "search the archives" link
fill in the little boxes, and click the "start the search" button.
I have these two URLs in my bookmark file, labeled appropriately. Makes
searching the archives a breeze and I don't have to keep emailing the
listserver with programming commands in an arcane language.
Happy hunting,
Shelley Greenhouse
database indexer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:42:51 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: "Pate, Pat" <PateP@CL.UH.EDU>
Subject: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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A question for users of Naturally Speaking -
I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index)
where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and
composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title
(Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)?
Pat Pate
Ref. Libn.
Univ. of Houston Clear Lake
patep@cl.uh.edu
Voice 281-283-3913
Fax 281-283-3937
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:08:18 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM>
Subject: Attn: listowner RE: building freelance pool
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Listowner: Other lists have defaulted the Reply button to go to a single
person, and the Reply to All button to go the list. Yet index-l uses Reply
to go to the list, which results in a lot of erroneous postings like this
one.
Any way to fix?
Karen Field
Sr. Technical Writer
Stellcom, Inc.
kfield@stellcom.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Brenner [mailto:dbrenner@JAVANET.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 5:10 AM
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: building freelance pool
Good morning, Cheryl:
I saw your notice on Index-L and would like to be considered for inclusion
in the New Riders freelance pool. I am an experienced embedded indexer of
computer books; my long-term clients include Macmillan and Wrox, and I have
recently begun working for IDG. In addition, I am co-editor of a book on
computer-based indexing (Beyond Book Indexing), to be published this month
by ITT publications. I work in Word (I do not own Framemaker, but would be
willing to purchase it and learn to embed using it if there was sufficient
promise of work). I am also able to convert Word-embedded document to Quark
format.
I am attaching my resume. You can also check out my Web site at
http:www.dianebrenner.com <http://www.dianebrenner.com> .
Sincerely,
Diane Brenner
clenser@MCP.COM wrote:
New Riders Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing
pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be
considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes
intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals,
MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists.
Anyone interested must be able to do embedded indexing in Word
and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine. We work under
tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects.
If you are interested, please send your resume to:
New Riders Publishing
201 W. 103rd Street
Indianapolis, IN 46290
ATTN: Cheryl Lenser
or email your resume as an attached Word document to
clenser@mcp.com.
Thank you,
Cheryl Lenser
New Riders Publishing
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:22:55 -0500
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From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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Pat:
My understanding is that you would say: "Landscape in winter comma
(and spell) Z-m-i-j-e-w-s-k-i." You might have to say "cap L" for the
capital L.
I will find out more this weekend as I more thoroughly test
Naturally Speaking. Try contacting them at 617-965-5200.
Rob
--
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:57:43 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Diane Brenner <dbrenner@JAVANET.COM>
Subject: Culpas
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My apologies for being too quick on the trigger finger this morning and
sending my cv to the list. I knew that I had erred the instant the
message was sent, but hoped that my error would fade into the cyber
miasma unnoticed. No such luck.
So I apologize to those of you who were unnecessarily subjected to my
marketing effort, and my thanks to those of you who were kind enough to
point out some typos. I appreciate the feedback.
Diane
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:55:57 -0500
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From: Craig Brown <lastword@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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On 10/27/1999 11:42 AM Pate, Pat wrote (in part):
>I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index)
>where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and
>composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title
>(Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)?
I do not use Naturally Speaking. My wife does, for medical
transcription.
While this also won't answer your question directly, I'd like to point
out that there are two distinct types of speech recognition systems:
continuous and discrete. Naturally Speaking is a continuous speech
recognition system and works best with full sentences with no pauses
between words. Dragon Dictate is a discrete speech recognition system
that works one word at a time with pauses between words. I would think
it would be more suited for indexing applications than Naturally
Speaking, but again I am not a user.
I know that when Naturally Speaking encounters a word it doesn't know
(and it's a good guess it doesn't know Zmijewski) it takes its best shot
at it and you then have to correct it, I believe by typing it in and
repeating the word a couple of times. If it "hears" the same word later,
it should be able to handle it.
One thing I've seen often on the list is the query as to how speech
recognition would handle complex acronyms, for instance WYSIWYG. I've
asked my wife about that and she says that you can invent a
pronunciation, spell it out for the program, and henceforth it will be a
part of the vocabulary. So if you say wizzywig consistently, you'll
consistently get WYSIWYG. It's simply a matter of deciding on a
pronunciation of the acronym that you can remember.
Hope this helps.
Craig Brown
The Last Word
Indexing Services
(314) 352-9094
lastword@mindspring.com
http://lastword.home.mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:15:37 -0700
Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charles Anderson <anderson@THE-INDEXER.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <381734EF.B7B3114F@mindspring.com>
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I use Naturally Speaking in its own word processing mode - not in Word or
Cindex. In the example you give, I would say "Cap Landscape in winter
comma" and then type the name which would be faster than spelling it out in
Rob's example. Then you would say "tab key" and the page number and then
"new line" The tab key command puts the page number into a separate field
for CINDEX. If you wanted all letters capitalized, you would say "Caps on"
followed by the phrase then "Caps off." Alternatively you could just say it
and then highlight the phrase and say "format that initial caps."
I'm continually surprised by the number of words that are already in the
vocabulary. If Zmijewski were going to appear more than once, you can also
train Naturally Speaking to recognize it the next time, or train it to
insert that when you give an abbreviation.
Charles R. Anderson
the-indexer.com
PO Box 15642
Seattle, WA 98115-0642
Voice: 206-985-8799
Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax)
Web: http://www.the-indexer.com
E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com
> My understanding is that you would say: "Landscape in winter comma
> (and spell) Z-m-i-j-e-w-s-k-i." You might have to say "cap L" for the
> capital L.
>
> I will find out more this weekend as I more thoroughly test
> Naturally Speaking. Try contacting them at 617-965-5200.
>
> Rob
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:55:46 GMT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
As no further suggestions have turned up, I'd like to suggest that we
adopt Jon's terms for the three levels:
> global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites
> local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site
> Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
plus "Web indexing" as an umbrella term for all three.
Can we agree on those?
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:12:13 -0700
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From: Susan Olason <oleduke@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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Pat,
It is very easy to dictate with Dragon and when you come to a term that
you don't want to add to your dictionaries, just type the term in, and
then continue dictation. You will still realize major efficiency gains
using Dragon!
Susan Olason
Indexes & Knowledge Maps
303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com
Pate, Pat wrote:
>
> A question for users of Naturally Speaking -
>
> I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index)
> where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and
> composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title
> (Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)?
>
> Pat Pate
> Ref. Libn.
> Univ. of Houston Clear Lake
> patep@cl.uh.edu
> Voice 281-283-3913
> Fax 281-283-3937
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:11:11 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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Pat,
You can stop dictating at any time and begin typing - the cursor will be at
the end of the last word you have dictated. Therefore, you could pause
dictating and type in names, but if you are going to use the same name more
than a couple of times, you can train the program to recognise it as Craig
Brown has already posted.
Ann
Ann Truesdale
anntrue@mindspring.com
> A question for users of Naturally Speaking -
>
> I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index)
> where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and
> composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a
title
> (Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)?
>
> Pat Pate
> Ref. Libn.
> Univ. of Houston Clear Lake
> patep@cl.uh.edu
> Voice 281-283-3913
> Fax 281-283-3937
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:43:18 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Cournoyer <cardella@VIDEOTRON.CA>
Subject: Bidding for CD-ROM index
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I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors'
Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs
so I'm anxious to see what you have to say.
Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for
your help.
Linda Cardella Cournoyer
cardella@videotron.ca
Question:
A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a
request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a
few lines I'd like some help with.
2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in
this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space
isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many
entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:19:39 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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I've been interested in trying Dragon, but I'd have to train myself out of
the habit of thinking out loud -- or, occasionally, arguing with the text
vociferously. <grin> Has anyone who uses Dragon for index entry found it
difficult to restrict their speech to index entries? Also, how does it
handle unexpected conversations (e.g., one's daughter wanders into the room
talking to or for her stuffed dog, or one's cat decides that he absolutely,
positively must be on one's desk this instant)? And how easy is it to turn
it off if the phone rings?
On a more indexing-specific note, how easy is it to edit what one has
entered? For instance, if you dictated "automobiles. See cars" 20 minutes
ago, and have now realized that the author uses "cars" more often than
"automobiles," is it easy to go back and change that? I do a lot of
editing on the fly, which saves me both time and headaches at the end (when
I may be too tired to remember that I wanted to change "automobiles" to
"cars" as a main heading.) I'm intrigued by the increase in efficiency
that some of you have found with Dragon, but I'm not sure I want to give up
my editing capability.
TIA,
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
----------
> From: Susan Olason <oleduke@IX.NETCOM.COM>
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
> Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:12 PM
>
> Pat,
>
> It is very easy to dictate with Dragon and when you come to a term that
> you don't want to add to your dictionaries, just type the term in, and
> then continue dictation. You will still realize major efficiency gains
> using Dragon!
>
> Susan Olason
> Indexes & Knowledge Maps
> 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com
>
> Pate, Pat wrote:
> >
> > A question for users of Naturally Speaking -
> >
> > I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting
Index)
> > where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters
and
> > composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a
title
> > (Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)?
> >
> > Pat Pate
> > Ref. Libn.
> > Univ. of Houston Clear Lake
> > patep@cl.uh.edu
> > Voice 281-283-3913
> > Fax 281-283-3937
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:22:08 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM
Subject: Info on a Packager
Hi Everyone,
I'm wondering if anyone on the list has done work for the packager
PageMasters & Company, based in Boston.
I'd like to know if your experience with them was positive or
negative, and who your point of contact was.
Thank you,
- Susan
***************************************
Susan Danzi Hernandez
BookEnd Indexing
susanhernandez@juno.com
(316) 789-0576 (Kansas)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:36:26 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Susan Olason <oleduke@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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John and Kara,
Dragon does not seem to pick up extra conversations in the same room.
But Dragon will pick up anything you say, whether it is meaningful or
not (grin). When someone calls on the phone, I just click Dragon off by
clicking the microphone icon.
As for editing your Dragon entries (if you are using Dragon to create a
text file) just dictate your Dragon edit commands, like Move up/back #
lines, Select word, Dictate new word. It's hard to give you a sense of
editing commands in Dragon, but they are intuitive, you can move easily
around a document.
I have found that I get the best efficiency gains from Dragon by
restricting Dragon just for input of index entries, creating a text file
that I import into my indexing software. For substantial editing, I use
my indexing software. And remember, Dragon works directly with some
indexing software (Macrex and SkyIndex, I believe), so you could use
Dragon to also execute indexing software commands.
Susan Olason
Indexes & Knowledge Maps
303-973-5705 or email:oleduke@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:43:15 EDT
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From: SHughes512@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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This is a great topic. I have a question for those of you who are using it.
Which version are you using? There seems to be several levels. The
Preferred and the Professional look useful, but the Professional is very
expensive. Would the Preferred work for indexers?
Sharon
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:47:01 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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I use the preferred version, and it works fine. I have very problems with it,
aside from missing some things when proofreading. For example, it can spell
out page numbers instead of putting numerals in if you're not paying
attention. You can just hit the "plus" key on the number pad quickly to turn
it off if you wish to carry on a conversation with your spouse, child, or
others. If I forget, I have gotten some garbled messages on the screen, but
they're easy to delete.
I dictate directly into the Dragon WP program and then import the text file
into Cindex. I have no problems with that at all.
On the other hand, it was not useful at all on one of the last indexes I
did--there were a ton of Asian names. So I elected to input by hand.
Leslie Frank
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:46:12 -0400
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From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <38177E6A.C73551AA@ix.netcom.com>
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Hi All:
At 03:36 PM 10/27/99 -0700, you wrote:
>John and Kara,
>
>Dragon does not seem to pick up extra conversations in the same room.
>But Dragon will pick up anything you say, whether it is meaningful or
>not (grin). When someone calls on the phone, I just click Dragon off by
>clicking the microphone icon.
Just don't have a parakeet in a cage next to your computer work station. If
you leave your computer with Dragon on while you do something else, you'll
find gibberish on your screen when you return.
Willa (sorry....I couldn't resist...)
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:05:48 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Dalindex@AOL.COM
Subject: Publisher Needs Help
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I just spoke with Heather, managing editor, at Conari Press. She needs an
indexer, available immediately, who has Quark (Mac) and can write an index in
Quark (I hope I am explaining this right). The manuscript is on disk. If any
of you can help her, please contact her at e-mail: hmcarthur@conari.com.
Thank you,
Debbie
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:06:41 -0700
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From: Susan Olason <oleduke@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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Sharon,
I have been using Dragon Preferred for over 2 years and have been VERY
happy with it. I can input about 100 pages per hour which is a MAJOR
improvement since I am an extremely bad typist and speller. Not only
has Dragon improved my input efficiency, it has also improved my editing
efficiency since index entries are spelled correctly. Dragon also frees
your hands to handle page proofs, and since I input directly from page
proofs, this is great for me.
I use different users for the different subjects I index in, therefore I
have built subject dictionaries for computers, gardening, horses....
You can build these dictionaries from existing indexes or other
documents. Also you can create dictation shorthands. For example, I
dictate a common plant name and Dragon inputs that common name along
with the botanical name, which I never could pronounce (grin). You could
use these dictation shorthands for any complex scientific term or for
any term that you use frequently.
If you travel, you may want to look at the extra capability that allows
you to dictate into a tape recorder.
Susan Olason
Indexes & Knowledge Maps
303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com
SHughes512@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> This is a great topic. I have a question for those of you who are using it.
> Which version are you using? There seems to be several levels. The
> Preferred and the Professional look useful, but the Professional is very
> expensive. Would the Preferred work for indexers?
> Sharon
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:12:25 -0700
Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charles Anderson <anderson@THE-INDEXER.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <0.3ae4cfd1.2548cbf3@aol.com>
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I am using Preferred for the Pentium III (It is supposedly optimized for the
new instruction set on the Pentium III chip).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indexer's Discussion Group
> [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of
> SHughes512@AOL.COM
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 2:43 PM
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
>
>
> This is a great topic. I have a question for those of you
> who are using it.
> Which version are you using? There seems to be several levels. The
> Preferred and the Professional look useful, but the
> Professional is very
> expensive. Would the Preferred work for indexers?
> Sharon
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:23:59 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
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This is a fascinating topic. I think that all of us indexers would like to
remove some of the drudgery (and sore hands) from the data entry component
and improve our speed (time=money). So, with that in mind, I have a couple
of questions/comments.
1.) If it works with Macrex and Sky, why not Cindex? Is there something that
the first two have, but not the latter. Can this be remedied?
2.) Would anyone who uses it be willing to dictate a sample and post it
here, unedited? We can choose a reference source for comparison of
punctuation, spelling, etc. This would be a valuable demonstration of its
usefulness (or not). I'd suggest reading from the index to _Indexing Books_
or perhaps some online source that we can all check? Or maybe an article in
_The Indexer_ ?
3.) Dick, are you paying attention (for Albuquerque)?
Dan
================================
Daniel A. Connolly
mailto:connolly@neca.com
Word For Word Indexing Services
http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com
Woodstock, CT, USA
================================
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Olason <oleduke@IX.NETCOM.COM>
To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
edited...
> I have found that I get the best efficiency gains from Dragon by
> restricting Dragon just for input of index entries, creating a text file
> that I import into my indexing software. For substantial editing, I use
> my indexing software. And remember, Dragon works directly with some
> indexing software (Macrex and SkyIndex, I believe), so you could use
> Dragon to also execute indexing software commands.
>
> Susan Olason
> Indexes & Knowledge Maps
> 303-973-5705 or email:oleduke@ix.netcom.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:20:10 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <011901bf20d2$5a11cc00$4f42b6d1@iwillp3450>
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>
>3.) Dick, are you paying attention (for Albuquerque)?
Hi All:
Actually, there was a discussion on Dragon at the meeting in Indianapolis
which got a positive response. At least there were a lot of questions
asked after the main presentatio on Saturday morning.
If Dragon is included in the conference in Albuquerque, I think it would be
helpful to have a demo, rather than just a discussion. The talk was an
excellent starting point for everyone, but a demonstration would answer a
lot of questions. And perhaps someone who uses Dragon with either Cindex
or Sky would be willing to demonstrate for those of us who have had
problems trying to make the two programs work together.
Willa (who wonders what technology will be discussing next on this list....)
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:38:10 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Judith W. Kip" <JudithKip@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re Dragon Naturally Speaking
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I have been using Dragon Preferred version 4 for about six weeks. I want=
ed
the most recent version and ordered it from their web site. I may have
paid slightly more than at a discount store, but the stores in upstate N=
ew
York did not have the most recent version (and still don't) and that's wh=
at
I wanted. I am very happy with it.
I use it with Sky Index and am learning the most efficient ways to enter
versus edit. I am a sloppy typist and using Dragon is a great help for
consistent spelling. I have been amazed at the words it know --especiall=
y
names
.
Judy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Judith W. Kip
Indexing
Owego, New York =
JudithKip@compuserve.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:04:09 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on a Packager
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Hi Susan,
Would you believe that one of the three indexes I have done so far was a
book on computer animation for this packager. My experience was negative in
that 1) they were late in getting me the proofs, 2) Lesley did not answer my
phone or e-mail queries (whether about the index itself or my payment) in a
timely fashion or sometimes not at all, 3) it took over 45 days for payment
to arrive. 4) I asked for, but did not receive acknowledgement that they
received the index.
I don't know if others would consider this a bad experience or not. I would
probably work for them again if asked at this early stage of my indexing
career.
Hope this helps and you are doing well. I received general indexing
instructions from CRC, but haven't heard anything about work yet. I will
probably call them next week. Ms Jaffe (I forgot her first name) said my
resume and sample indexes looked fine.
Nina
Nina Forrest
Looking Up Indexing Service
505-856-9166
e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com
-----Original Message-----
From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM <susanhernandez@JUNO.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 3:25 PM
Subject: Info on a Packager
>Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm wondering if anyone on the list has done work for the packager
>PageMasters & Company, based in Boston.
>
> I'd like to know if your experience with them was positive or
>negative, and who your point of contact was.
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>- Susan
>
>
>***************************************
>Susan Danzi Hernandez
>BookEnd Indexing
>susanhernandez@juno.com
>(316) 789-0576 (Kansas)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:12:48 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Mea culpa from another person
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Folks,
I just made the same mistake that many others have by sending a personal
answer to the entire list. Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other
lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to
all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it.
Nina
Nina Forrest
Looking Up Indexing Service
505-856-9166
e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:20:14 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Max Dalrymple <mdalry@SR66.COM>
Subject: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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The mention of indexing gardening books prompts me to remark: I've been
writing about Xeriscape (TM) at suite101.com and I have noticed that Denver
Colorado owns the word xeriscape as a trademark. I write about it in my
first article, but so far everyone tends to underplay this fact, not using
(TM) with the word, for example. Since I know indexers are word people and
like to be precise I thought I'd see if the reaction of this list is the
same I've repeatedly received: "Do you think it's important?"
Would you mention it to a publisher if you saw the word in your index? If I
remember correctly, Xerox had to run a lot of ads to tell people Xerox is a
trademark and not a public domain word for photo-copying. I suspect that
the City of Colorado ("The City That Owns a Word") may need to do so
eventually. They appear to feel that since they aren't allowing nurseries
and yard and garden stores to market "xeriscape plants" they're doing all
they need to do to protect their trademark.
Max Dalrymple, MLS
(I index the rest of this week!)
mdalry@sr66.com
http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/51112
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:24:37 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Linda Sutherland wrote:
>
> > global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites
> > local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site
> > Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
>
> plus "Web indexing" as an umbrella term for all three.
>
> Can we agree on those?
I'm not trying to be negative, here, but I still think these terms are shaky, partly because they overload terms already in use:
"Global index" implies "the entire Web" (like Yahoo or AltaVista). How about "multiple-site index" or some such?
"Local index" implies "not available on the Web" (like an intranet). How about "single-site index" or just "site index"?
As for "Web page index," I still can't imagine creating an index for a single web page--if the page is that big, it probably ought to be broken up into more useable chunks.
Finally, "Web index" doesn't cover any of the other uses of HTML--intranets, help files, and so on.
Why not use terms that describe the subject on which we're writing in a particular context? Examples include "hypertext index," "HTML index," "Help index," "WinHelp index," "back-of-the-book style index," "HTML Help index," "JavaHelp index," and so on?
I would prefer specificity to generalities that have to further qualified in context.
(I'm not trying to negative--honest!)
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
-
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:26:06 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Blee811@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 10/27/99 9:30:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
<< Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other
lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to
all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >>
This list is set up the way most lists are and the way most of us are used
to. We all make mistakes occasionally and it will happen no matter which
direction the list is set up. There will be much more confusion if it is
changed than if it is left alone.
Bill Lee
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:12:36 +0200
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Avital Pinnick <mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Re Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <199910272038_MC2-8AAD-8B94@compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Can Dragon handle European accents? (I'm referring to grave, acute, umlaut,
and so on; my own accent is generic Canadian.)
Avital
Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-2063
Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584
Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:53:49 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Elliot Linzer <elinzer@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The city of Denver owns the trademark for a product??? I don't think
that I have ever heard of this before. I know that the federal
government is prohibited from copyrighting their publications and from
directly owning patents. (I know that this law has been violated in the
past.)
Assuming that this is true, let your editor know that the term is a
trademark and strongly suggest that the trademark symbol follow the word
directly (no space) where it appears in the index. The publisher is
ultimately responsible for this, not the indexer.
| Elliot Linzer
| 43-05 Crommelin Street
| Flushing, New York 11355
| (718) 353-1261
| elinzer@juno.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:35:05 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Melissa Moore <55742@PEACHNET.CAMPUSCWIX.NET>
Subject: Introduction and Questions
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi. My name is Melissa. I am a recently retired librarian looking to
enter the field of freelance indexing. I truly enjoy this work and have a
couple of questions:
1. What organizations do you advise me to join besides ASI?
2. How do you feel the field looks for new indexers, meaning the amount of
work available?
3. Do you recommend the course offered by USDA?
4. This is the hard question. How do you find clients?
My background is varied. I hold a B.A. in English. My library experience
mostly revolves around cataloging items in medicine and computer science.
Thank you.
Melissa Moore
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:28:22 GMT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <3817C1F5.54611A78@brown-inc.com>
from "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM> contains these words:
> (I'm not trying to negative--honest!)
I understand and accept that. I wasn't trying to be negative when I
commented on others' suggestions, either, though I did worry that it
might seem so. But I work on the premise that, in a group of
intelligent and civilised adults, it ought to be possible to offer
constructive criticism, listen to that offered by others, reflect,
argue amicably and, if they seem justified, take new ideas on board.
I don't believe anyone has a monopoly on wisdom, particularly when
breaking new ground, as we're doing here.
There's food for thought in what you say, but unfortunately I don't
have time today to give it that thought. I'll reply again when I've
found the time.
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:00:38 -0400
Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: J Flenner <varney@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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Having just completed 2 indexes which include the term "xeriscape," I
was moved to check the government's online database of trademarks
(registered and pending), which could be missing some, of course, but
they show no trademarks with the word "xeriscape."
<http://trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-mark.html>
Jackie F.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:21:13 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: MaryMort@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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On the issue of including the trademark symbol or (TM) in the index entry for
a trademarked term: It has been my practice to *not* include the trademark
indication in indexes. I just checked Mulvany, and found that she writes (p.
138) that the general practice is to not include it, unless the editor
requests it.
Do any of you include the trademark, service mark or registered mark
indication in the index?
Cheers,
Mary
--
* Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com
* Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas
* Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631
* American Society of Indexers
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:28:58 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ruth V Laningham <laninghamr.oimc@GAO.GOV>
Subject: Machine-aided indexing
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Good morning indexers --
Most of us have agreed that totally automated indexing is a bad thing. But does
anybody out there use machine-*aided* indexing for a bibliographic database? In
machine-aided indexing the computer identifies words in a document that are
likely to be indexable, then returns a list of authorized subject terms from a
controlled vocabulary. A human indexer accepts or rejects candidates from the
list. The human can also add terms not suggested by the computer. I understand
this is the way _Chemical Abstracts_ is done. (It probably wouldn't work for
back-of-the-book indexing.) Does anybody have any experience with this? If so,
what software do you use and what do you think of it? Or is there a more
appropriate list for this question?
Ruth
laninghamr.oimc@gao.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:49:32 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Wright, Sharon F." <Sharon.Wright@LEXIS-NEXIS.COM>
Subject: Dragon Naturally Speaking
We have been using the Preferred edition here at Lexis Publishing for a few
months now and are very happy with it. To answer a few of the questions:
1) Why Preferred? The short answer is, "Price." There is a legal
dictionary that you can get with the Professional edition, but we didn't
think that the extra cost justified the convenience, and we have found that
training the program to recognize legal terminology is not particularly
difficult.
2) Can you use the keyboard easily? Yes, absolutely. We use the keyboard
almost continuously because we don't reference to page numbers, but rather
to code section numbers. The problem is that reference format of some of
the codes can get quite Byzantine, for example:
Illinois: 225: 705/34.01
Maryland: TR §21-10A-01
New York: Agr & M § 20
Virginia: §46.2-746.11:8
Needless to say, we don't want to have to dictate anything that looks like
THAT! :-)
3) Editing considerations. Yes, there are some errors that we have learned
to look for and recognize as "voice recognition errors." For example the
number 55 may come out "5 the 5" and if you are dictating punctuation, you
may notice several phrases that end with the word "common" rather than a
comma. You quickly learn to recognize them for what they are and fix them.
4) Accents. Since the program learns your voice it learns your accent. Of
our Indexers who are currently using it, one has a very southern Virginia
drawl and another has a very distinct northern/midwestern accent, and it
hasn't had a problem with either. And since there is no uniform
pronunciation for most of the Latin legal phrases, they are all pronouncing
them differently and the program is keyed to that person's particular
pronunciation. As for foreign words and phrases, Dragon makes their
software in several different languages, so I don't think that would be a
problem.
All in all, it's a great time saver, especially for some of our senior
indexers who aren't adept at keying but are used to using a dictaphone--
their speed and accuracy has improved dramatically.
Hope this helps.
Sharon Wright
Sharon.Wright@lexis-nexis.com
LEXIS Publishing
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:56:48 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> On the issue of including the trademark symbol or (TM) in the index entry
for
> a trademarked term: It has been my practice to *not* include the
trademark
> indication in indexes. I just checked Mulvany, and found that she writes
(p.
> 138) that the general practice is to not include it, unless the editor
> requests it.
>
> Do any of you include the trademark, service mark or registered mark
> indication in the index?
I have included it, not for company names but for trademarked products
(Xerox Corporation, but FrisbeeTM.) Generally, I look at the text; if the
trademark is included with the product there (which I gather it should be),
I use it in the index. I have occasionally alerted editors to the fact
that something *is* trademarked, and let them make the decision as to
whether to include the trademark in the text and index. Sometimes people
just don't realize that the name is trademarked.
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:06:46 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Judi Alamia <JAlamia@THEFUND.COM>
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Definitely important to acknowledge trademarks. I work for attorneys, so I
may be a bit more sensitive to this than others, but I know it can cost tens
of thousands of dollars to research and then register a trademark. For a
multimillion dollar company like Xerox, this is peanuts, of course, and they
can run million dollar ads to remind people about their trademark, but for
smaller companies, not so easy--they may not have the advertising budget,
especially when they are just starting out. I know that words eventually get
turned over to the language (note kleenex and aspirin), but IMHO, we are
still obligated to note a TM or R and let the publisher know if they've
neglected to include it in the text.
Judi
-----Original Message-----
From: Max Dalrymple [mailto:mdalry@SR66.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 9:20 PM
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Xeriscape(TM)
The mention of indexing gardening books prompts me to remark: I've been
writing about Xeriscape (TM) at suite101.com and I have noticed that Denver
Colorado owns the word xeriscape as a trademark. I write about it in my
first article, but so far everyone tends to underplay this fact, not using
(TM) with the word, for example. Since I know indexers are word people and
like to be precise I thought I'd see if the reaction of this list is the
same I've repeatedly received: "Do you think it's important?"
Would you mention it to a publisher if you saw the word in your index? If I
remember correctly, Xerox had to run a lot of ads to tell people Xerox is a
trademark and not a public domain word for photo-copying. I suspect that
the City of Colorado ("The City That Owns a Word") may need to do so
eventually. They appear to feel that since they aren't allowing nurseries
and yard and garden stores to market "xeriscape plants" they're doing all
they need to do to protect their trademark.
Max Dalrymple, MLS
(I index the rest of this week!)
mdalry@sr66.com
http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/51112
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:08:22 +0300
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <07F3ED0E0DA7D1119A5B00805FA79A4803D826FF@LNXCHOEXCH01>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Wright, Sharon F. wrote:
> 4) Accents. Since the program learns your voice it learns your accent. Of
> our Indexers who are currently using it, one has a very southern Virginia
> drawl and another has a very distinct northern/midwesternaccent, and it
> hasn't had a problem with either. And since there is no uniform
> pronunciation for most of the Latin legal phrases, they are all pronouncing
> them differently and the program is keyed to that person's particular
> pronunciation. As for foreign words and phrases, Dragon makes their
> software in several different languages, so I don't think that would be a
> problem.
My question is, can the English language version be "trained" to recognize
accents? Or is there another way to enter accents when using Dragon? I
would use an English version but I frequently have to type names with
French, German and Scandinavian accents.
Avital
Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230
Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584
Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:08:54 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
In-Reply-To: <0.b2fbc9ad.2549a7c9@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>On the issue of including the trademark symbol or (TM) in the index entry for
>a trademarked term: It has been my practice to *not* include the trademark
>indication in indexes. I just checked Mulvany, and found that she writes (p.
>138) that the general practice is to not include it, unless the editor
>requests it.
>
>Do any of you include the trademark, service mark or registered mark
>indication in the index?
>
>Cheers,
>Mary
>--
>* Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com
>* Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas
>* Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631
>* American Society of Indexers
When I index supply catalogs, the client often asks me to do this on
the index entry that is the trademarked product name. In regular
text, usually not.
Regards,
Larry Harrison
Co-Webmaster
American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/
and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter
[please remove NOSPAM to email me directly]
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:17:24 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Elaine R. Firestone" <elaine@SEAWIFS.GSFC.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<< Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other
lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to
all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >>
A lot of times, this is a function of your mail program, not the
list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set
how you want to handle this.
HTH.
Elaine
Elaine R. Firestone, ELS
elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:35:04 +0300
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL
Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b43e0ac58325@[128.183.121.166]>
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It's also a function of how the list is set up. I'm most familiar with
majordomo, since that's what my list (Orion list for Dead Sea Scrolls)
uses, but most software allows the list owner to change the default reply
function to either "reply to sender" or "reply to list." Newer lists such
as the ones cropping up on Onelist.com are nearly idiotproof (they give
you the settings and that's that, or only a limited number of choices) but
older lists require more fiddling. Whether a particular list owner knows
how to change the configuration depends solely on his or her knowledge of
the software and access to outside technical support but the choice is
there.
Avital
Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230
Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584
Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly.
On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Elaine R. Firestone wrote:
> << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other
> lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to
> all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >>
>
>
> A lot of times, this is a function of your mailprogram, not the
> list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set
> how you want to handle this.
>
> HTH.
>
> Elaine
>
> Elaine R. Firestone, ELS
> elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:53:52 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Wright, Sharon F." <Sharon.Wright@LEXIS-NEXIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
If we can train it to recognize mispronounced Latin phrases, I think you can
train it to recognize just about anything. I'm not trying to be flip, but
honestly, I don't think it would be a problem. You would train it to
recognize the name the same way that you would train it to recognize any
other word that isn't already in the dictionary.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL [SMTP:mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 9:08 AM
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
>
> On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Wright, Sharon F. wrote:
> > 4) Accents. Since the program learns your voice it learns your accent.
> Of
> > our Indexers who are currently using it, one has a very southern
> Virginia
> > drawl and another has a very distinct northern/midwesternaccent, and it
> > hasn't had a problem with either. And since there is no uniform
> > pronunciation for most of the Latin legal phrases, they are all
> pronouncing
> > them differently and the program is keyed to that person's particular
> > pronunciation. As for foreign words and phrases, Dragon makes their
> > software in several different languages, so I don't think that would be
> a
> > problem.
>
> My question is, can the English language version be "trained" to recognize
> accents? Or is there another way to enter accents when using Dragon? I
> would use an English version but I frequently have to type names with
> French, German and Scandinavian accents.
>
> Avital
>
> Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230
> Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584
> Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University
> http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:21:10 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charlotte Skuster <skuster@BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Organization: Binghamton University
Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi all,
I can change the setting to reply-to-sender. However, that does not make
sense. This is a discussion list, and most replies will be to the list.
Personal replies are not a huge problem here. And I think we can tolerate the
occaisonal slip.
Just be careful out there...8-)
Charlotte Skuster
Index-l moderator
mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL wrote:
> It's also a function of how the list is set up. I'm most familiar with
> majordomo, since that's what my list (Orion list for Dead Sea Scrolls)
> uses, but most software allows the list owner to change the default reply
> function to either "reply to sender" or "reply to list." Newer lists such
> as the ones cropping up on Onelist.com are nearly idiotproof (they give
> you the settings and that's that, or only a limited number of choices) but
> older lists require more fiddling. Whether a particular list owner knows
> how to change the configuration depends solely on his or her knowledge of
> the software and access to outside technical support but the choice is
> there.
>
> Avital
>
> Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230
> Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584
> Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University
> http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly.
>
> On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Elaine R. Firestone wrote:
>
> > << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other
> > lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to
> > all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >>
> >
> >
> > A lot of times, this is a function of your mailprogram, not the
> > list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set
> > how you want to handle this.
> >
> > HTH.
> >
> > Elaine
> >
> > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS
> > elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov
> >
--
Charlotte Skuster
Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer
Binghamton University Science Library
P. O. Box 6012
Binghamton, NY 13902-6012
Phone: (607) 777-4122
Fax: (607) 777-2274
skuster@binghamton.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:24:00 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "HEALY.SUSAN" <HEALY.SUSAN@LEG.STATE.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
Comments: To: Max Dalrymple <mdalry@SR66.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Max and others,
When the Florida Legislature passed legislation several years ago
regarding Xeriscape landscaping, our indexing staff pondered why the
word was capitalized. We learned that the term was a registered
trademark. Since that time we have continued to capitalize it in all
occurrences in our indexes, however we do not include the TM symbol.
Susan Healy
Fla. Legislature
Division of Statutory Revision
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Xeriscape(TM)
Author: "Max Dalrymple" [SMTP:mdalry@SR66.COM] at HSE-EXCH
Date: 10/27/99 9:20 PM
The mention of indexing gardening books prompts me to remark: I've been
writing about Xeriscape (TM) at suite101.com and I have noticed that Denver
Colorado owns the word xeriscape as a trademark. I write about it in my
first article, but so far everyone tends to underplay this fact, not using
(TM) with the word, for example. Since I know indexers are word people and
like to be precise I thought I'd see if the reaction of this list is the
same
I've repeatedly received: "Do you think it's important?"
Would you mention it to a publisher if you saw the word in your index? If I
remember correctly, Xerox had to run a lot of ads to tell people Xerox is a
trademark and not a public domain word for photo-copying. I suspect that
the City of Colorado ("The City That Owns a Word") may need to do so
eventually. They appear to feel that since they aren't allowing nurseries
and yard and garden stores to market "xeriscape plants" they're doing all
they need to do to protect their trademark.
Max Dalrymple, MLS
(I index the rest of this week!)
mdalry@sr66.com
http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/51112
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:54:53 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Caroline Parks <cparks@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <07F3ED0E0DA7D1119A5B00805FA79A4803D82704@LNXCHOEXCH01>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I'm curious to know if anyone is using Dragon directly with Cindex, or is
it really necessary to dictate into Dragon's word processor and then export
to Cindex? It seems that if it works directly with SKY, it should also
work with Cindex.... I don't think I would find it useful to have to enter
outside of Cindex, since I prefer to work with the index in sorted order,
and I use so many of the index-editing functions as I work.
Thanks!
Caroline
__________________________________________________________
|
| Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence
|
| Indexing services for Books, Technical documents,
| Software documentation, and Online help systems
|
| Tijeras, NM
| 505-286-2738
| cparks@mindspring.com
|
| "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim."
|_________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:54:52 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: greenhou@EROLS.COM
Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function
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For those of you who want to, you can change your Index-L subscription
parameters to allow your email programs to take care of this.
Method one:
Go to http://listserv.binghamton.edu/archives/index-l.html
click on "join or leave the list (or change settings)" line
Fill in the blanks as appropriate, and under mail header style, click to
select
" sendmail-style" (IETFHDR)
Click the "join the list button" .
Reply to the confirmation procedure as instructed.
Note that from this screen you can change your list options. Following
the login procedure also allows you to update your subscription
interactively over the Web.
Method two:
Send a message to:
LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu
(CUT AND PASTE THIS ADDRESS INTO THE TO: LINE OF YOUR MESSAGE NOW)
Leave subject line blank
Message is: SET Index-L IETFhdr
Send message.
The listserver should send you back a message confirming your changes.
This header style allows most email programs to see the original
sender. Thus, clicking the "Reply" button sends to one person, and
"reply to all" sends to that person plus the list. I use this with
Netscape's built in email program, and it works.
Shelley Greenhouse
(been there, done that)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:56:39 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Max, Susan, and others,
Out here in Arizona, xeriscape landscaping is a concept/term frequently used
and written about. Interestingly, I've never seen it capitalized, even in
our local newspaper's articles. I'm not disputing the fact that it is
trademarked term. I *am* pointing out that it appears to be slipping into
common parlance, and it will go the way of xerox, kleenex, etc ..... and at
least here, it has become part of everyday life, a term with a life of its
own.
Just pointing out the local usage. Isn't language interesting?
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:43:41 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> My question is, can the English language version be "trained" to
recognize
> accents? Or is there another way to enter accents when using Dragon? I
> would use an English version but I frequently have to type names with
> French, German and Scandinavian accents.
I think what Avital means is, Does the English-language version of Dragon
recognize and supply diacritical marks, and/or can it be trained to insert
them? (Is that what you meant, Avital?) I'm curious about this, too, as I
do a fair amount of history and political history.
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:28:59 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ditto for Albuquerque.
-----Original Message-----
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM <JPerlman@AOL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 1999 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
>Max, Susan, and others,
>
>Out here in Arizona, xeriscape landscaping is a concept/term frequently
used
>and written about. Interestingly, I've never seen it capitalized, even in
>our local newspaper's articles. I'm not disputing the fact that it is
>trademarked term. I *am* pointing out that it appears to be slipping into
>common parlance, and it will go the way of xerox, kleenex, etc ..... and at
>least here, it has become part of everyday life, a term with a life of its
>own.
>
>Just pointing out the local usage. Isn't language interesting?
>
>Janet Perlman
>SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:47:11 -0700
Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charles Anderson <anderson@THE-INDEXER.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991028094718.00a1aa40@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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It's not that Naturally Speaking doesn't work with Cindex. It does. For me
it's because using it in Cindex is a bit more cumbersome. I don't know how
Sky or Macrex handle functions such as Cindex's "Page Down" or "Shift Page
Up" for example. To dictate a record directly in Cindex one would say for
example:
(without the quotes)
"Cap Cats new line pet insurance press down arrow 47 press page down"
If you wanted to copy the record as well as add you could say at the end
rather than "press page down," press shift page up." I haven't been able to
find the right words to make it do "Ctrl-+" to swap the entries.
The way I work is to dictate about 100-200 records in Dragon, import it into
a temporary Cindex file (so I can do some editing in case Dragon chose the
wrong word and I missed it), then I import into the main file. I know this
sounds a bit cumbersome, but being able to look at the results in a sorted
draft file before the records get lost in the whole index is my safety net.
Even with all this, I still save about 33% on indexes that aren't using a
lot of macros for example or have really bizarre names.
Charles R. Anderson
the-indexer.com
PO Box 15642
Seattle, WA 98115-0642
Voice: 206-985-8799
Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax)
Web: http://www.the-indexer.com
E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indexer's Discussion Group
> [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Caroline Parks
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 8:55 AM
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
>
>
> I'm curious to know if anyone is using Dragon directly with
> Cindex, or is
> it really necessary to dictate into Dragon's word processor
> and then export
> to Cindex? It seems that if it works directly with SKY, it
> should also
> work with Cindex.... I don't think I would find it useful to
> have to enter
> outside of Cindex, since I prefer to work with the index in
> sorted order,
> and I use so many of the index-editing functions as I work.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Caroline
> __________________________________________________________
> |
> | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence
> |
> | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents,
> | Software documentation, and Online help systems
> |
> | Tijeras, NM
> | 505-286-2738
> | cparks@mindspring.com
> |
> | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines
> can swim."
> |_________________________________________________________
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:49:38 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
In-Reply-To: <1999102719554672477@zetnet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:55 PM 10/27/99 GMT, Linda Sutherland wrote:
>As no further suggestions have turned up, I'd like to suggest that we
>adopt Jon's terms for the three levels:
>
>> global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites
>> local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site
>> Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file
>
>plus "Web indexing" as an umbrella term for all three.
>
>Can we agree on those?
P.S. (at the beginning of a message?!) I wrote this reply before seeing
David Brown's latest comments, which, as will be obvious, make a lot of
sense to me. In view of his comments I've added the aside in the last
paragraph.
Linda et al.:
I have no Web indexing experience but I have been following this thread
with interest -- especially since I just got my first web indexing inquiry
-- and have been watching for for further suggestions from persons
experienced in the field. I was not intending to say anything myself, but
now that Linda is asking for agreement on terms I want to make a few comments.
To begin with, I don't know whether the "w" in "Web" or "web", or in
"Web-this" or "web-that", should always be capitalized. I've used capital
"w"s in this message to help make the terms stand out in the text.
I liked the sense of the first two terms Linda suggested: "multi-site
indexing" and "one-site indexing" (as long as "Web indexing" or "Web site
indexing" is understood as the context), but I thought they might be
expressed somewhat better as "multiple-site indexing" and "single-site
indexing" for short, and as "multiple-Website indexing" and "single-Website
indexing" in full. "File indexing" at first sounded too unspecific, but in
the context of "Web indexing" or "Web site indexing" it too might work for
short, meaning "Web file indexing" in full. (HTML file indexing is broader
since it includes files other than Web files, such as help files and CD-ROM
files.)
I also liked the sense of all of Jon's suggestions: "global Website
indexing", "local Website indexing", and "Web page indexing", but on
further reflection the term "global", meaning "everywhere", seems too broad
to use when no more than "multiple" is meant; and if it be said that
"global" _means_ "multiple", then to me "global" would sound like jargon
I'd rather avoid. "Web page indexing" sounds good as long as there's no
other kind of Web file indexing. If there is, "Web file indexing" would be
more inclusive.
Thus my untutored preferences so far are: "multiple-Website indexing"
("multiple-site indexing" for short), "single-Website indexing"
("single-site indexing" for short), and -- if there is such a thing -- "Web
page indexing" (or possibly "Web file indexing", and "file indexing" for
short).
Michael
Brackney Indexing Service
134 Kathleen Way
Grass Valley, CA 95945
530-272-7088
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:58:54 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Regarding using Dragon with Cindex, I was advised to use Dragon directly and
then import the files because it would be faster and more efficient. Dragon
works best within Dragon. So what I do is make a separate file for each
chapter, import that file into Cindex when I finish each chapter, and keep
Cindex open while I'm working. That way I can quickly go back and check any
entries I might need.
And using Dragon Spanish Edition with Cindex has been a hassle. First of all,
I forgot I would have to relearn all the commands in Spanish. And because I'd
been using the English edition for a while first, I would automatically say
the command in English and have to force myself to switch to Spanish. More
importantly, the diacriticals don't transfer over in the file. Fortunately,
the "error characters" are quickly recognizable and consistent, so I can do
global changes pretty easily. I do this when I am indexing only in Spanish.
If it were just a few foreign words or phrases, I'd just type them in unless
I felt that I'd be using them a lot.
Leslie Frank
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:26:03 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Cournoyer <cardella@VIDEOTRON.CA>
Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one?
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)?
----- Original Message -----
I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors'
Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs
so I'm anxious to see what you have to say.
Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for
your help.
Linda Cardella Cournoyer
cardella@videotron.ca
Question:
A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a
request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a
few lines I'd like some help with.
2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in
this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space
isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many
entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:12:55 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lillian Ashworth <ashworth@PULLMAN.COM>
Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Elliot asks:
> The city of Denver owns the trademark for a product??? I don't think
>that I have ever heard of this before.
>
According to the catalog _A High Country Garden_ written and published in
Santa Fe and which specializes in Xeriscape plants (my copy is from 1996):
"Some years back the Denver Water Department coined the word 'Xeriscape',
from the Greek word _xeri_ for dry, and applied it to the practice of water
conservation through creative gardening."
The word appears prominently on most of the catalog pages and is not marked
with a trademark symbol. It is in caps, but that has more to do with page
design.
It is a beautiful and very useful publication.
Lillian Ashworth
ashworth@pullman.com
who finally decided to recreate a longed for English flower garden using
plants that mimic flowering habits but are more suitable for the mostly arid
climate of eastern Washington State.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:39:36 -0700
Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charles Anderson <anderson@THE-INDEXER.COM>
Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one?
In-Reply-To: <000f01bf2169$82b13f00$c037c818@videotron.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maybe no one has responded because without knowing some variables it's
difficult to estimate.
1) "Fairly technical" implies what? 10 entries per page?
2) How many pages an hour can you do? 10 for very technical work?
3) How much do you want to earn per hour? $50 for very technical indexing?
So with the above parameters: 3000 pages at 10/hour = 300 hours X $50/hr =
$15,000;
10 entries/page * 3000 pages = $15,000 divided by $30,000 entries = $.50
per entry.
But 5 entries per hour and other numbers above constant = $1/entry.
But change any factor and you get a different answer.
Charles R. Anderson
the-indexer.com
PO Box 15642
Seattle, WA 98115-0642
Voice: 206-985-8799
Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax)
Web: http://www.the-indexer.com
E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com
Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one?
No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)?
----- Original Message -----
I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors'
Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing
for CD-ROMs
so I'm anxious to see what you have to say.
Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for
your help.
Linda Cardella Cournoyer
cardella@videotron.ca
Question:
A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a
request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a
few lines I'd like some help with.
2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in
this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space
isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many
entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:35:41 -0400
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From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <0.91ff306e.2549dace@aol.com>
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> That way I can quickly go back and check any
>entries I might need.
>And using Dragon Spanish Edition with Cindex has been a hassle. First of all,
>I forgot I would have to relearn all the commands in Spanish. And because I'd
>been using the English edition for a while first, I would automatically say
>the command in English and have to force myself to switch to Spanish. More
>importantly, the diacriticals don't transfer over in the file. Fortunately,
>the "error characters" are quickly recognizable and consistent, so I can do
>global changes pretty easily. I do this when I am indexing only in Spanish.
>If it were just a few foreign words or phrases, I'd just type them in unless
>I felt that I'd be using them a lot.
Hi All:
It's for discussions like this that I would love to see one or two people
demonstrate how they use Dragon with Cindex/Sky/Macrex at the next
conference. It's obvious from the discussion that people have adapted the
program to meet their specific needs.
It would seem as tho' there would be a real interest in seeing how indexers
have adapted Dragon into their indexing routine.
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:08:54 -0500
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From: quaker1 <dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one?
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I've never done any CD-ROM indexing, but I find a per-entry charge is usually
the fairest
way to get paid for an index, particularly a large one. Per-page billing is
not possible with
a CD-ROM, and a per hour rate would be difficult to calculate. Another factor
is what
kind of software will you use. Some dedicated software like Cindex or
Framemaker, or
will you create the index in Word or some other format. These are things I
would think
about when making your estimates.
Diana Witt
Cournoyer wrote:
> No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors'
> Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs
> so I'm anxious to see what you have to say.
> Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for
> your help.
> Linda Cardella Cournoyer
> cardella@videotron.ca
>
> Question:
> A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a
> request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a
> few lines I'd like some help with.
>
> 2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in
> this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space
> isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many
> entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:10:59 -0500
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From: quaker1 <dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one?
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I forgot to add: The current per entry rate in the US is between $.65 and
$.75 cents per
entry, depending on the subject matter, how much time you have, etc.
Diana Witt
Cournoyer wrote:
> No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors'
> Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs
> so I'm anxious to see what you have to say.
> Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for
> your help.
> Linda Cardella Cournoyer
> cardella@videotron.ca
>
> Question:
> A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a
> request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a
> few lines I'd like some help with.
>
> 2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in
> this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space
> isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many
> entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:41:34 -0700
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From: Sonsie Conroy <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
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I've been following this discussion with great interest, but have been
unwilling to pay the $199 price for the latest version. So I checked eBay,
and there are about 70 new-in-box copies of the Preferred edition (versions
range from 2.0 to 3.5), for prices ranging from $10-$50. There are also a
number of editions of the Professional version, the USB version, etc.
For those of you who have not used eBay for purchases before, I can
recommend it based on about six months worth of both buying and selling.
I've had a very few less-than-perfect experiences, but in all cases have
been able to get the matter settled to my satisfaction.
Somebody mentioned that they bought Dragon Preferred direct from its website
in order to get the most recent version. Is there any pressing need to have
v. 4.0 (the latest), or would 3.5, for instance, work well? I'd be willing
to sacrifice some small new feature if I could save about 75% on the
purchase price.
Sonsie
sconroy@slonet.org
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:53:28 EDT
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From: Huse@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Denver Water Board on Xeriscape (TM)
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Since I'm here in Colorado I decided to call the Colorado Water Department
(which also responds to Denver Water Board). I was told they do indeed hold
the term "xeriscape" as a trademarked term (held under owner's name of Denver
Water).
When asked about use of the trademark symbol with the term, I was told they
request that the term be indicated as trademarked at the first usage in a
text, but they would not expect it to be so indicated in the index.
Hannah Huse
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:56:08 -0700
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From: Susan Olason <oleduke@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
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Caroline,
I use Dragon with Cindex DOS. You have to create a tab delineated text
file and import it into Cindex. I find that this has NOT been a problem
or slowed me down, since I use Dragon ONLY for input. I then use Cindex
for editing/manipulation of entries. I believe that keystroke shortcuts
and macros are faster than dictation when it comes to substantial
editing tasks.
However, if you are looking to use Dragon for substantial editing or to
save hand and wrist stress, I believe that the only indexing software
that Dragon directly interfaces with is Macrex or SkyIndex. Could
someone confirm that?
Susan Olason
Indexes & Knowledge Maps
303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com
Caroline Parks wrote:
>
> I'm curious to know if anyone is using Dragon directly with Cindex, or is
> it really necessary to dictate into Dragon's word processor and then export
> to Cindex? It seems that if it works directly with SKY, it should also
> work with Cindex.... I don't think I would find it useful to have to enter
> outside of Cindex, since I prefer to work with the index in sorted order,
> and I use so many of the index-editing functions as I work.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Caroline
> __________________________________________________________
> |
> | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence
> |
> | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents,
> | Software documentation, and Online help systems
> |
> | Tijeras, NM
> | 505-286-2738
> | cparks@mindspring.com
> |
> | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim."
> |_________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:17:12 -0400
Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: J Flenner <varney@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Last (?) word on Xeriscape (TM)
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Apologies for this miss-sent email.
BTW, about an hour ago I tried the 2nd method of changing my email
preferences for reply, and heard nothing back from LISTSERV
Jackie F.
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:13:04 -0400
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From: Cournoyer <cardella@VIDEOTRON.CA>
Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one?
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Charles and Diana,
A royal thank you! I won't be involved with this project but will pass your
answers on to the woman who originally asked the question.
I don't know anything about CD-ROM indexing but I'm very interested in
learning. I would have thought that a program such as Cindex could not be
used to index a CD-ROM and that an HTML program would have to be used.
Can someone who has indexed a CD-ROM please tell me what program needs to be
used and a tiny bit about the procedure. I don't even know if you get the
CD-ROM to work from or the material is given to you in paper form.
Your answers will also help me guide the person who originally asked the
question since I don't think the company bidding for the job has ever done
this either.
Many thanks,
Linda Cardella Cournoyer
cardella@videotron.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:23:29 -0400
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From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Last call for proposals!
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If you are planning a proposal for the Albuquerque conference, the November
1 deadline looms large. For a refresher on the format of a proposal, go to
the ASI Web site at www.asindexing.org and follow the jolly red pepper to
the "Call for Proposals" page.
Remember, the topics listed are only suggestions. You may submit a proposal
on any topic that interests you.
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:30:07 -0400
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From: Keith McQuay <keithm@SUPERAJE.COM>
Subject: Working from PDF files
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A while back a client sent me a book in PDF format. Yuk I thought and
immediately had a printout made at the copy shop intending to work from
that. Much to my surprise, after the first 50 pages or so I was reading
more off the screen and didn't touch the paper after page 100. Since then
I've had several more books in PDF and work entirely off-screen, toggling
back and forth between Acrobat and Cindex. PDF has become my preferred way
of working, followed by paper, followed a distant third by embedded indexing
in Quark or Word. I have all the functionality of Cindex plus searching and
text copying capability in Acrobat -- it's like the best of both worlds.
Do you know if indexing from PDF is common? Is this a beginning trend? (I
hope)
Keith
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:04:58 -0700
Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charles Anderson <anderson@THE-INDEXER.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991028194134.0116674c@slonet.org>
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3.52 seems to work quite well for me, although DNS claims 99% accuracy for
4.0. They also say it works faster within Word 2000 - I do notice 3.52 is
quite slow in that program, but I rarely use DNS with Word anyway. The
upgrade price is only $99, so I'll probably upgrade after the first round of
bugs are worked out of 4.0.
Charles R. Anderson
the-indexer.com
PO Box 15642
Seattle, WA 98115-0642
Voice: 206-985-8799
Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax)
Web: http://www.the-indexer.com
E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com
>Somebody mentioned that they bought Dragon Preferred direct
>from its website
>in order to get the most recent version. Is there any pressing
>need to have
>v. 4.0 (the latest), or would 3.5, for instance, work well? I'd
>be willing
>to sacrifice some small new feature if I could save about 75% on the
>purchase price.
Sonsie
sconroy@slonet.org
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:23:53 -0500
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From: quaker1 <dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Last call for proposals!
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Dick: Do you need a formal proposal for a roundtable disscussion? If so,
consider this
a formal proposal for a roundtable on the issues facing the Strategic Planning
committee.
The focus would be on any progress made between the Nov. board meeting and June
on the initiatives I will outline at the bd meeting (you'll be getting them this
weekend). I would
also welcome any intput at that time from conference attendees. This is a
little ahead of
the game, but as you say, Nov. 1 is looming, and so I want to put this on the
table. As
you'll see from my SP presentation at the board, I have several ideas based on
the material
you sent me last summer.
Diana
Richard Evans wrote:
> If you are planning a proposal for the Albuquerque conference, the November
> 1 deadline looms large. For a refresher on the format of a proposal, go to
> the ASI Web site at www.asindexing.org and follow the jolly red pepper to
> the "Call for Proposals" page.
>
> Remember, the topics listed are only suggestions. You may submit a proposal
> on any topic that interests you.
>
> Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 01:13:26 GMT
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From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <3817C1F5.54611A78@brown-inc.com>
from "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM> contains these words:
> "Global index" implies "the entire Web" (like Yahoo or AltaVista).
How about "multiple-site index" or some such?
The definition "indexing across many web sites" would certainly
include efforts to index the entire Web, as well as those which cover
fewer sites.
But I think you mean that "global" implies *only* indexing the whole
Web, not any smaller group of sites? If so, then yes, on reflection I
think you're right to suggest we avoid the word. I'm happy with your
suggested alternative.
> "Local index" implies "not available on the Web" (like an
intranet). How about "single-site index" or just "site index"?
The term actually proposed was "local Website indexing" - the middle
word makes it clear that intranets etc. are not included. But you've
prompted a thought that hadn't occurred to me till now, namely that
"local Website indexing" is quite a long phrase, and it's quite
possible that in hurried or casual use people would be inclined to
shorten it to "local indexing". If so, that certainly would be confusing.
Of the two terms you suggest as substitutes, I prefer "single-site indexing".
> As for "Web page index," I still can't imagine creating an index
for a single web page--if the page is that big, it probably ought to
be broken up into more useable chunks.
"I dream of things that never were, and ask "why not?" " :-)
(Quoted from memory - apologies if I've got the wording wrong!)
To be serious, I can accept that indexing one Web page is likely to
occur much less frequently than indexing one or many sites. In fact,
I think we agreed earlier that neither of us was aware of an existing
example. But a couple of thoughts make me wary of excluding the
possibility completely, by not making provision for it at all in our
fledgling vocabulary.
One is that the length of the Web page isn't the most significant
statistic, for indexing purposes. What matters more is the density of
indexable elements in the page. One which contains mostly continuous
text - e.g. a report - may need only one or two index entries per
paragraph, at most. But another file of similar length which contains
an annotated list of links to other Web sources may need one index
entry per line, sometimes more. The first file might never merit an
index of its own, but I'm not so sure about the second.
The other thought is related to the above, and stems from the fact
that a single index to even a fairly small site can result in a file
which is large enough to require an appreciable period of time to
download, on my system anyway. When that happens, more impatient
users are likely to ignore the index in favour of whatever other site
guidance is provided, blunter tools though these may be.
In order to overcome this, it would be necessary to find some way of
dividing up the index into smaller files, to reduce the download
time. The most obvious way of doing that is to put each alphabetical
section into a file of its own.
There's another possibility, however, one which seems particularly
suitable if the site includes lists of links as mentioned above. That
is, to extract from the main index those entries which refer to the
pages of links, and give each of these pages a sub-index of its own,
in a separate file, with only broad headings left in the main index
to guide the user to the sub-index. (Before you ask - no, I've never
seen it done! But I have been toying with the possibility of
experimenting with it on my own site.)
> Finally, "Web index" doesn't cover any of the other uses of HTML--intranets, help files, and so on.
It was never meant to. The definition I suggested in an earlier
message was along the lines of "an index on the Web, serving to
locate information in other Web files".
What you're saying, I think, is that Web indexes form one subset of a
larger group - indexes coded in HTML - other subsets of which are
intranet indexes and help files? If so, presumably we need a
still-wider umbrella term for that larger group. I'd suggest "HTML
index/indexing ", except that I notice "HTML index" in your next
paragraph, which implies that the term has already been commandeered
for some other purpose.
> Why not use terms that describe the subject on which we're writing
in a particular context? Examples include "hypertext index," "HTML
index," "Help index," "WinHelp index," "back-of-the-book style
index," "HTML Help index," "JavaHelp index," and so on?
I'm not sure what all of these are. Would you provide definitions/explanations?
--
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 01:12:50 GMT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Sutherland <linda.sutherland@ZETNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing]
The message <3.0.6.16.19991028095130.20bf5046@pop3.nccn.net>
from Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET> contains these words:
> To begin with, I don't know whether the "w" in "Web" or "web", or in
> "Web-this" or "web-that", should always be capitalized.
Neither do I!
-
Linda Sutherland
linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk