Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9911E" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:34:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These page references are correct, but they don't look quite right because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 The book quotes Samuel Chadwick. The first quote is one line on the bottom of page 121 and four lines on the top of 122. A second quote is five lines on the bottom of page 122 and four lines on the top of 123. (A third quote is on page 125.) Thanks for your input, Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing "Building a Better Book" indexer@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:30:20 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Shirley, > These page references are correct, but they don't look quite right > because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? > > Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 My practice is to use the page range 121-23 in this case. I know it looks strange, and is in way misleading (implying that there is a long discussion or quote). I have a small second thought each time this situation occurs, but I think the reader will be able to figure it out once he/she looks at those pages. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Job Opportunity - Exciting Equity Opportunity!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From: "Marcia A. Fawcett" >To: "'info@asindexing.org'" >Subject: Job Opportunity - Exciting Equity Opportunity! >Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:12:53 -0500 >X-Rcpt-To: >X-DPOP: DPOP Version 2.5g > >COMPANY: A dynamic, FIRST IN THE MARKET!! e-Commerce company, headquartered in the Boston area, MOVING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT! >POSITION: Electronic Information Specialist >Content Classification - Taxonomist/Indexer > >MISSION: This Specialist will be a critical member of the management team, providing expertise in taxonomy; organizing / classification / abstract indexing / cataloguing of hugh amounts of electronic information > >SCOPE: Reporting to the Vice President of Product Development, this Specialist will function as part of the data services team and lead product and subject categorization activities. He/she will work closely with management teams, including sales and marketing, vendor and corporate partnerships and engineering. > > RESPONSIBILITIES: >Refine taxonomy for the presentation of product and services >Refine categorization methodology for the verification and enhancement of product information. >Implement categorization policies and procedures for the data services team . >Interface with the data services team, other internal departments and outside providers to continually make improvements to the categorization methodology and taxonomy by evaluating current systems and processes and making recommendations and then implementing. >Develop and implement plan for categorization activities. >Oversee the effective flow of information through the department, constantly evaluating and improving all systems and processes by which products are >Other duties and projects as assigned to meet the demands of an evolving and very fast paced E-Commerce business ! >Travel 15 - 20% > >THE CANDIDATE: Requirements: >Professional Experience: >Minimum + 10 years solid business success, in librarian roles of increasing responsibility working with electronic data systems; 3+ years of Internet experience >Strong background in electronic data search/collection and data management - content classification, abstract indexing, cataloguing, etc. >Demonstrated success in librarianship with strong subject-classification expertise! >Strong knowledge of web searching technologies >Experience in training and educational industries a plus! >Proven project management and leadership skills >Strong organizational skills and the ability to manage details >Demonstrated proficiency in computer skills; with Microsoft Office and related technologies > Personal Attributes: >High energy, positive attitude, and a Sense of Humor! >Excellent interpersonal and communication skills; professional demeanor >Assertive but dynamic and flexible; diplomatic; strong win-win negotiator, >Flexible with team attitude in a changing and demanding environment >Disciplined, organized, strong work ethic, self-driven; Results oriented! >Self-starter, able to work with minimal supervision >Direct, honest, high integrity! >Dedicated, with a passion for work hard/play hard environments > >Strong preferences for: >Knowledge of or experience in training and education industries > >EDUCATION: Bachelor's degree required. Graduate work / degrees in Library and Information Science a plus! > > >COMPENSATION: Our client offers a competitive compensation program including base, bonus and significant equity! (including an attractive benefits program) for the right candidate! > >CONTACT; THE FAWCETT GROUP > (Retained executive search) >Email: mfawcett@fawcett-group.com > FAX: 781/ 593-5355 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:50:00 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shirley K Warkentin asked: > > These page references are correct, but they don't look quite right > > because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? > > > > Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 Mary Mortensen replied: > My practice is to use the page range 121-23 in this case. I know it looks > strange, and is in way misleading (implying that there is a long discussion > or quote). I have a small second thought each time this situation occurs, > but I think the reader will be able to figure it out once he/she looks at > those pages. My practice is to use the form you have suggested: 121-22, 122-23. I guess they "don't look quite right" now you mention it, and possibly readers may think it's a mistake, but I feel it is less misleading that 121-23. I don't think there is a "right" and "wrong" way to do this. Trust your gut feeling. Whichever you use, as Mary points out readers will be able to figure it out once they look at these pages. As I've pointed out in the past, I don't believe most ordinary readers have very specific expectations of indexes, and will be delighted with any link to what they're looking for. (That's not an excuse for sloppiness, though!) Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I usually concatenate these, even though they refer to separate quotes/discussions. Otherwise, as you say, it doesn't look right. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ---------- > From: Shirley K Warkentin > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: page reference > Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 12:34 PM > > These page references are correct, but they don't look quite right > because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? > > Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 > > The book quotes Samuel Chadwick. The first quote is one line on the > bottom of page 121 and four lines on the top of 122. A second quote is > five lines on the bottom of page 122 and four lines on the top of 123. > (A third quote is on page 125.) > > Thanks for your input, > > Shirley Warkentin > Cornerstone Indexing > "Building a Better Book" > indexer@juno.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:13:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCrary, Fran" Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings, I was taught to use the word "passim" in a situation like this to indicate that the discussion of Samuel Chadwick is scattered throughout the pages, rather than a long discussion or quote. I haven't indexed in a long time, so don't know if this phrase is still used so I would be interested in your comments. The reference would be as follow: >Chadwick, Samuel, 121-123 passim, 125 Fran McCrary Sr. Research Librarian Xerox Special Information Systems -----Original Message----- From: MaryMort@AOL.COM [mailto:MaryMort@AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 12:30 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: page reference Hi Shirley, > These page references are correct, but they don't look quite right > because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? > > Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 My practice is to use the page range 121-23 in this case. I know it looks strange, and is in way misleading (implying that there is a long discussion or quote). I have a small second thought each time this situation occurs, but I think the reader will be able to figure it out once he/she looks at those pages. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:08:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: page reference In-Reply-To: <002601bf3b53$26f55580$28906ccb@michaelw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >My practice is to use the form you have suggested: 121-22, 122-23. I guess >they "don't look quite right" now you mention it, and possibly readers may >think it's a mistake, but I feel it is less misleading that 121-23. > >I don't think there is a "right" and "wrong" way to do this. Trust your gut >feeling. Whichever you use, as Mary points out readers will be able to >figure it out once they look at these pages. As I've pointed out in the >past, I don't believe most ordinary readers have very specific expectations >of indexes, and will be delighted with any link to what they're looking for. >(That's not an excuse for sloppiness, though!) Hi All: Don't forget that this approach (121-23) is also preferred by some editors as well. Willa (who enjoyed being caretaker at Cardigan this past weekend except for when we had to search for someone who was lost on the trail system Saturday afternoon....everything ended well but that's the closest I ever want to come to being involved with a search and rescue in the mountains.....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:00:30 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, "Passim" doesn't seem to be used very often anymore. The only press that I know of that still uses "passim" is Stanford University Press. I must say that "passim" does seem to fulfill a necessary function and I don't know of any other technique which serves the same purpose. Best, Sylvia Coates ----- Original Message ----- From: McCrary, Fran To: Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 10:13 PM Subject: Re: page reference > Greetings, > > I was taught to use the word "passim" in a situation like this to indicate > that the discussion of Samuel Chadwick is scattered throughout the pages, > rather than a long discussion or quote. I haven't indexed in a long time, > so don't know if this phrase is still used so I would be interested in your > comments. The reference would be as follow: > > >Chadwick, Samuel, 121-123 passim, 125 > > Fran McCrary > Sr. Research Librarian > Xerox Special Information Systems > > -----Original Message----- > From: MaryMort@AOL.COM [mailto:MaryMort@AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 12:30 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: page reference > > Hi Shirley, > > > These page references are correct, but they don't look > quite right > > because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? > > > > Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 > > My practice is to use the page range 121-23 in this case. I > know it looks > strange, and is in way misleading (implying that there is a > long discussion > or quote). I have a small second thought each time this > situation occurs, > but I think the reader will be able to figure it out once > he/she looks at > those pages. > > Cheers, > Mary > -- > * Mary Mortensen * > marymort@aol.com > * Indexing services * Lawrence, > Kansas > * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 > * American Society of Indexers > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:15:09 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/1999 3:07:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, scoates@RCN.COM writes: << "Passim" doesn't seem to be used very often anymore. The only press that I know of that still uses "passim" is Stanford University Press. I must say that "passim" does seem to fulfill a necessary function and I don't know of any other technique which serves the same purpose. >> I am reading a book published by Houghton Mifflin this year and was surprised to see "passim" used in the index. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:28:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexlady@AOL.COM Subject: Paragraphs/Page References MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All! The discussion of page references for quote lines has raised a question in my mind. <> <> I understood this to be essentially 2 quotes, each one starting on one page, and concluding on the next. If I understood this correctly, then I would like to see how others handle the following situation: If a paragraph starts on one page, but concludes on the next, and the part you specifically want to index is in the concluding part of the paragraph, what is the "proper" way of handling this? (1) Where the paragraph actually begins, which would be on the previous page? OR (2) Where the indexable "word" appears? We'll assume the "word" actually has a discussion in the conclusion of the paragraph, and is not mentioned in passing. Where does the entry begin? The breaking out of the quote, on pages 121-22, and 122-23 implies that we should ignore paragraph structure. My take on the page references was: 121, 123, 125 since that's where the discussion started (quote), and by paragraph standards, ended. The discussion (quote) didn't start a new paragraph on the next page. It merely concluded. I'm sure this has a name. Does anyone understand what I'm trying to ask? LOL! Either way, the reader will be directed to the area. But..... Thoughts? Thanks! Dawn Spencer Techni-Dexes 168 Jones Street Rockwood, TN 37854 Tel & Fax: (423) 354-9601 --------------- Coordinator of the Tennessee Regional Group of the American Society of Indexers tennwords@aol.com http://members.aol.com/tennwords/ http://www.asindexing.org/ --------------- Author of the Indexing topic at Suite 101 http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:31:14 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexlady@AOL.COM Subject: OOPS!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> 121, 122, 125 I'm soooo confused I didn't know what I was keying in...... Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:17:55 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: cgweaver@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: Comments on my web page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks very much to all of you who have commented on my new web page. All comments (including pointing out the typos and spelling errors!) are greatly appreciated! When you look at it again, you'll notice that I've definitely been paying attention to your suggestions. Several of you have asked what software I used to design it. It's Microsoft Publisher 98, which came with my new notebook computer. The program has several very nice templates with lots of options for background colors/textures, clip art, etc., and no need to worry about the HTML coding. And then when it's all ready to go, you just click on "Publish to Web" under File and the program takes care of all that nasty FTPing to the server and other technical details like getting graphics in the right place. Highly recommended for those (like me!) who want the fun of designing a page and deciding on content without having to worry about the format and coding -- a lot like using dedicated indexing software, when you get right down to it! Regards, Carolyn G. Weaver Weaver Indexing Service 2213 138th Ave. S.E. Bellevue, WA 98005 phone: 206/930-4348 fax: 425-746-2263 email: cgweaver@mindspring.com web: http://www.mindspring.com/~cgweaver ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Re: Page ranges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 1) My practice is to turn: 121-122, 122-123 into 121-123. 2) A style occasionally seen is: 121(2) (two distinct refs on p. 121) 3) "passim" is a great word. Use of it was discouraged by Hans Wellisch, who must not be a Latin-lover. He stepped into the void of no standards, wrote a book, and proclaimed that "passim" was passe. Likewise he banned the useful devices "f" and "ff" (121f means 121-122; 121ff means 121 and a few pages more). I think Wellisch claims that index users dont understand these Latin tags. Well, they don't understand a lot, but that doesnt mean we need to write to the lowest standard. 4) I'd like to see a new device used, the tilde in the place of the hyphen (en-dash, actually). Then a reference like "121~151" would mean "off and on throughout these pages" (in other words, "passim"). The standard "121-151" would still mean a solid discussion. 5) I notice that when I use an index and see an entry with many references, I tend to look first at the longer page ranges. 6) Boldface references are a great help in showing the *significant* references in an index. E.g., 10, 20, 30, *40*, 50, 60. Ask your editor if they are allowed. *** Peter Rooney magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:22:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: page reference In-Reply-To: <199911300502.AAA17767@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >These page references are correct, but they don't look quite right >because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? > >Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 > >The book quotes Samuel Chadwick. The first quote is one line on the > My authors and editors prefer 121-23 for that situation. And all the presses that have sent me written indexing guidelines have requested that "passim" not be used; likewise "f" and "ff." My impression is that authors and editors see the intervening stuff as part of the context, so it's not all that misleading to use that sort of page range. They seem to want to ignore brief interruptions. And, yes, if an indexable term appears on, say, p. 122, but the sentence it's in starts on p. 121, I use 121-22 as the locator. What I'm indexing isn't just the word itself but what the author is saying about it, and it's (usually) the entire sentence that gives me that. I have come across one exception to that. Univ. of Calif. Press has a new policy for indexing endnotes. If the note slops over to a second page, you index only the *first* page, even if the name or other term appears only on the *second* page. For example, if note 4 to a given chapter starts on p. 324 and ends on p. 325, and there's some stuff about Chadwick only in the part of the endnote on p. 325, UC Press wants this: 324n.4. I'm not real comfortable with it, but I can see their point (endnote locators tend to get messy), and I imagine users of the index will figure out how it works. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:22:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: page references In-Reply-To: <002601bf3b53$26f55580$28906ccb@michaelw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:50 AM 11/30/99 -0800, Michael Wyatt wrote: > >Shirley K Warkentin asked: >> > These page references are correct, but they don't look quite right >> > because page 122 is repeated. Any suggestions? >> > >> > Chadwick, Samuel, 121-22, 122-123, 125 > >Mary Mortensen replied: >> My practice is to use the page range 121-23 in this case. I know it looks >> strange, and is in way misleading (implying that there is a long discussion >> or quote). I have a small second thought each time this situation occurs, >> but I think the reader will be able to figure it out once he/she looks at >> those pages. > > >My practice is to use the form you have suggested: 121-22, 122-23. I guess >they "don't look quite right" now you mention it, and possibly readers may >think it's a mistake, but I feel it is less misleading than 121-23. > When it's up to me in such cases I too use two page ranges 1) because they're accurate and 2) because the single page range alternative is inaccurate and misleading. I would readily agree that two page ranges such as 121-22, 122-23 look _unusual_, but I don't agree that they "don't look quite right", and I doubt that readers would get stuck on them. (Indeed, I've heard some readers express appreciation for them, and the only readers I've heard express any concern about them are indexers!) Also, I would not say that such page ranges are "less misleading" than single ranges like 121-23 because they're really not misleading at all. At 12:31 AM 11/30/99 -0500, Peter Rooney wrote: > >1) My practice is to turn: 121-122, 122-123 into 121-123. >2) A style occasionally seen is: 121(2) (two distinct refs on p. 121) Maybe we should consider 121-123(2). > >3) "passim" is a great word. Use of it was discouraged by Hans Wellisch, >who must not be a Latin-lover. He stepped into the void of no >standards, wrote a book, and proclaimed that "passim" was passe. Likewise he banned >the useful devices "f" and "ff" (121f means 121-122; 121ff means >121 and a few pages more). I think Wellisch claims that index users dont >understand these Latin tags. Well, they don't understand a lot, but that doesnt >mean we need to write to the lowest standard. I think these are very good points. Regarding the annotations f and ff, 121f may also be used to mean 121, 122 and 121ff may be used to mean 121, 122, 123. I once used f, ff, and even fff in this way -- and _passim_ too! -- to index a dense and badly edited manuscript in which a number of discussions were widely scattered on mostly consecutive pages. > >4) I'd like to see a new device used, the tilde in the place of the >hyphen (en-dash, actually). Then a reference like "121~151" would mean >"off and on throughout these pages" (in other words, "passim"). >The standard "121-151" would still mean a solid discussion. What an inventive idea! I'd sure like to see us consider it. I too have tried to improve on _passim_ and the best I've come up with so far is the annotation (mlt) for "multiple" akin to the annotaton (2) in point 2) above. Considering the use of _passim_ or an alternative in the example given, the page range may be too long -- just as one can be too short -- for this device to work very well. > >6) Boldface references are a great help in showing the *significant* >references in an index. E.g., 10, 20, 30, *40*, 50, 60. >Ask your editor if they are allowed. I disagree with this point because designating page references as "significant" seems too arbitrary and involving. I've tackled the problem of distinguishing among numerous page references following a given heading from the opposite point of view by trying to find a good way of pointing out the merely mentioned or passing references (instead of "significant" references), and I'm thinking that the annotation "m" might work well, and that grayed-out page references might work really well in onscreen indexes. Cheers everyone, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:22:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: separate index sales Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm writing a couple of indexes for books that were published without indexes and I'm considering offering the one I'm doing _gratis_ for sale with the permission of the author and publisher. Anybody have any advice on pricing or marketing? Thanks, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:20:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Is Anne Trusdale out there? ;) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: Sorry to bother everyone, but I'm trying to reach Anne Truesdale. Could you drop me a note privately, Anne. I need to verify your current email address. Thanks. Willa (who hopes that everyone had a pleasant weekend....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: Re: page references In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991130114746.261fbb80@pop3.nccn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just wanted to ad my 2 cents on this.... In the last 2 projects I have worked on, which were specialty encyclopedias, I have used "passim". Out of all the options which have recently been posted regarding this topic, I think the use of passim is the cleanest. I really like the tilde (123~127) idea! I do wonder if users of the index will even know what passim means! I recall speaking with failry educated non-indexers/librarians who did not know what "passim" meant in an index. > >3) "passim" is a great word. Use of it was discouraged by Hans Wellisch, > >who must not be a Latin-lover. He stepped into the void of no > >standards, wrote a book, and proclaimed that "passim" was passe. Likewise > he banned > >the useful devices "f" and "ff" (121f means 121-122; 121ff means > >121 and a few pages more). I think Wellisch claims that index users dont > >understand these Latin tags. Well, they don't understand a lot, but that > doesnt > >mean we need to write to the lowest standard. > --Ilana Kingsley Kingsley Indexing Services http://www.indexpup.com email: inewby@beryl.ils.unc.edu or indexpup@indexpup.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:37:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: page references Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 11/30/1999 3:07 PM Ilana Kingsley wrote (in part): >I do wonder if users of the index will even know what passim means! I >recall speaking with failry educated non-indexers/librarians who did not >know what "passim" meant in an index. Count me among these in my life before indexing. I also had no idea that an index might have explanatory notes at the beginning. Craig Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: separate index sales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have any specific advice on pricing--you'll need to get what you're happy with. Consider your time in creating the index, your time and costs to print and publish (in whatever format), time and cost to market and your expected sales. There are some publishers' web sites that have interesting information on this sort of calculation. Try these: Dan Poynter's Publishing site: http://www.parapublishing.com/ Bookmarket: http://www.bookmarket.com/index.html Brenner Books: http://www.brennerbooks.com/ Tool Shed: http://hometown.aol.com/catspawpre/ToolShed.html In the end, it will come down to whether you want to make money from this, just want to see if it can be done, just want to see this great index in print somewhere, or feel like providing a service to mankind by making this available. I am interested in why you feel you need permission. An index is an original, creative work. No permission needed as far as I can see. I remember that this was discussed previously on the list and that was the consensus then. Perhaps Nancy Mulvany has info on her site about this -- she's written extensively about index copyrights. As I recall, there is some case law in this area. I'm also interested in details about the book and the index. What kind of book is it? What is your target market for selling the index? That sort of thing. Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents List ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com/indexstudents.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Brackney To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 3:22 PM Subject: separate index sales > I'm writing a couple of indexes for books that were published without > indexes and I'm considering offering the one I'm doing _gratis_ for sale > with the permission of the author and publisher. Anybody have any advice > on pricing or marketing? > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > Brackney Indexing Service > 134 Kathleen Way > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 530-272-7088 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:09:26 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to cast my vote against using tildes (~) instead of hyphens in an index to indicate what 'passim' does. I am very nearsighted and even with the new contacts I ordered today I think I would miss the tildes when looking at an index. The basic point that seems to recur in these discussions is that any 'codes' we put in an index that require an explanation are not going to be understood by some readers, but at least let's make them noticeable codes, please! Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:21:42 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Sharing good news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Colleagues, I wanted to share with you a story with a nice ending. On Monday afternoon, I got a call from an editor from whom I have done a few books (mostly college history texts). He was calling to see whether I could take on a book that would be ready for indexing in a few weeks. It seems that one of the press's authors had seen my name listed as indexer in another book from that press; the author was so impressed with the index that she/he (I don't know who it is yet) asked the editor to specifically request my services for the author's book. Well that's certainly nice enough. It's always good when one's work is appreciated. However, I explained to the editor that I was booked solid through the middle of January so I really couldn't take on the job. I index part-time--evenings and weekends--and find it impossible to work on more than one book at a time. The editor reiterated that they ***really*** wanted me to take the job. He'd check a few things and call me. I got his return call today: They've adjusted the production schedule!!!! so that I could take on the book the last two weeks in January. That's the first time that's ever happened to me. Yippee! End of story. Fred Leise Between the LInes Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:51:24 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: Page ranges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By coincidence just today I wrote a short 'discussion piece' for the AusSI Newsletter about using continuous page ranges. I will now pull it and substantially rewrite it, one reason being that I never knew that something like 12-13, 13-14 was used. I am a great believer in the 'Keep it Simple' principle, both for indexer and reader, and I group page ranges whether or not they look funny. When I use an index I like to be able to skip between index and text as easily as possible. If I have to look to the index three times instead of once (ie, look for 11, 12, 13 instead of seeing 11-13) I feel I have wasted time. In my head I see 11, 12, 13 and say 'there is stuff on pages 11-13'. To save the user this step I combine page ranges in my indexes. I started this practice with indexes where tables were indexed in italics, and I had ridiculously long lists of numbers in plain and italic text. To justify the use of the individual page numbers I would have to feel that the user benefits. I can see that the user might feel that 11-13 offers more substantial discussion than 11, 12, 13, however this will only be of practical significance if the user is deciding between two similar page ranges (ie if the same topic is also discussed at, say, 45-47). The worst that happens is that they come to the three separate discussions before the three pages of continuous discussion. If a topic is discussed in three separate instances within three pages I would say that those pages are pretty significant to that topic, given that context is often as important as the specific info that has been indexed, so the user would probably want to consult them as well. However, if I followed the principle of indexing discrete page ranges, and thought it was important, I guess I would feel obliged to follow through consistently, and use 121-122, 122-123. If the principle can be sacrificed once, why not drop it altogether. Thanks all for a stimulating and timely discussion. Glenda. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Page ranges > 1) My practice is to turn: 121-122, 122-123 into 121-123. > 2) A style occasionally seen is: 121(2) (two distinct refs on p. 121) > 3) "passim" is a great word. Use of it was discouraged by Hans Wellisch, > who must not be a Latin-lover. He stepped into the void of no > standards, wrote a book, and proclaimed that "passim" was passe. Likewise he banned > the useful devices "f" and "ff" (121f means 121-122; 121ff means > 121 and a few pages more). I think Wellisch claims that index users dont > understand these Latin tags. Well, they don't understand a lot, but that doesnt > mean we need to write to the lowest standard. > 4) I'd like to see a new device used, the tilde in the place of the > hyphen (en-dash, actually). Then a reference like "121~151" would mean > "off and on throughout these pages" (in other words, "passim"). > The standard "121-151" would still mean a solid discussion. > 5) I notice that when I use an index and see an entry with many references, > I tend to look first at the longer page ranges. > 6) Boldface references are a great help in showing the *significant* > references in an index. E.g., 10, 20, 30, *40*, 50, 60. > Ask your editor if they are allowed. > *** > > > Peter Rooney > magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Sharing good news In-Reply-To: <0.98ed97d1.2575e036@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >I got his return call today: They've adjusted the production schedule!!!! so >that I could take on the book the last two weeks in January. That's the first >time that's ever happened to me. Yippee! > >End of story. > >Fred Leise >Between the LInes Indexing and Editorial Services Hi All: Congratulations Fred. Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:36:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-11-30 16:40:33 EST, lastword@mindspring.com writes: > Count me among these in my life before indexing. I also had no idea that > an index might have explanatory notes at the beginning. Which is why I've started giving a course at the Newberry Library titled "Beginning at the Back of the Book: How to Use Indexes." It's part of the Library's regular seminar series and is aimed at any readers using the library. Basically I spend two two-hour sessions covering some of the standard conventions we indexers use. I also include basic tips for increasing research efficiency. Why not try offering such a course at your public library? It would help the public learn about indexes (which is certainly a good thing), plus it's great publicity for you, too (which is definitely a good thing). Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: cross-references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who keep statistics, Anyone care to share the number of cross-references (or percentage of entries) in your indexes? Obviously, there are a gazillion factors that go into these numbers and you're free to qualify them as you see fit. I'd share, but have not kept track of this statistic yet (I'll do an archival retrieval soon). I feel like maybe I'm not generating enough of them. I might have 10-20 for a 250-pg. trade book (that might have 1000 page references). This seems low to me (only 1-2% of entries are x-refs). Any thoughts? Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents List ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com/indexstudents.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:45:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Herzog Subject: Re: Sharing good news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, That must really feel grand! Congratulations!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 9:21 PM Subject: Sharing good news > Dear Colleagues, > > I wanted to share with you a story with a nice ending. > > On Monday afternoon, I got a call from an editor from whom I have done a few > books (mostly college history texts). He was calling to see whether I could > take on a book that would be ready for indexing in a few weeks. It seems that > one of the press's authors had seen my name listed as indexer in another book > from that press; the author was so impressed with the index that she/he (I > don't know who it is yet) asked the editor to specifically request my > services for the author's book. Well that's certainly nice enough. It's > always good when one's work is appreciated. > > However, I explained to the editor that I was booked solid through the middle > of January so I really couldn't take on the job. I index part-time--evenings > and weekends--and find it impossible to work on more than one book at a time. > The editor reiterated that they ***really*** wanted me to take the job. He'd > check a few things and call me. > > I got his return call today: They've adjusted the production schedule!!!! so > that I could take on the book the last two weeks in January. That's the first > time that's ever happened to me. Yippee! > > End of story. > > Fred Leise > Between the LInes Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:52:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Fat Lady Redux: The Final Word? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All - Well, serendipity has struck again! On a recent visit to Barnes & Noble, I ran across a book entitled "It Ain't Over 'Till the Fat Lady Sings: The 100 Greatest Sports Finishes Of All Time" by Howard G. Peretz (B&N, 1999). Pages XII-XIII are devoted to the Fat Lady legend. Mr. Peretz says that in the 1978 National Basketball Playoffs (Washington Bullets vs. Philadelphia 76ers), Bullets coach Dick Motta said "The opera ain't over, etc., etc." But San Antonio Express News broadcaster Dan Cook evidently said it on the air earlier, during a game between Washington and the Spurs. Also, an obscure 1976 booklet entitled "Southern Words and Sayings" included the entry "Church ain't out until the fat lady sings." Other people remember it going back to the 1960s. Political reporter Bob Ingraham said that he first heard the "opera" version while with the Montgomery (ALA) Advertiser in the 1950s. So, like all great legends, the origin of this phrase seems to be shrouded in mystery, if not in history. And, unlike other children of uncertain paternity, there seems to be no dearth of willing fathers. Or, at least, of fond uncles. On, Dancer! On Prancer! On Avoirdupois! And to all a Good Night... ! Bob