Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9911A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:00:13 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Moan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello - I downloaded the mail this morning after the weekend. From Index-L and other mailing lists, there were sheafs of copies of the same message, private messages, public messages with lengthy repeats of previous messages etc. No doubt this was a bad morning, but there seems to be an increase in redundant and misdirected material which all costs money to download. And much of it ends up in archives. Also, one can get trigger-happy with the delete key and lose something worthwhile. I think part of this is due to increased use of Microsoft (spit) mailing software which has a mind of its own and doesn't let you see what you are sending or where you are sending it. I can't imagine it is really all just carelessness. Perhaps there is a case for switching to decent software for email, such as Eudora or Pegasus, which have free versions. There may be better packages than these available as well. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:16:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melissa Moore Subject: Re: Moan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear John: I've noticed the same problem with Hotmail. The "Reply to All" option can cause one to receive at least two copies of one message. It is so redundant. I've decided to return to my regular email account and just create new folders for different topics. Maybe this will prevent the loss of needed messages as well as duplicate messages. Sincerely, Melissa Moore, MLS >From: "J.R. Sampson" >Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: Moan >Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:00:13 -0000 > >Hello - > >I downloaded the mail this morning after the weekend. From Index-L >and other mailing lists, there were sheafs of copies of the same >message, private messages, public messages with lengthy repeats >of previous messages etc. > >No doubt this was a bad morning, but there seems to be an increase >in redundant and misdirected material which all costs money to >download. And much of it ends up in archives. Also, one can get >trigger-happy with the delete key and lose something worthwhile. > >I think part of this is due to increased use of Microsoft (spit) mailing >software which has a mind of its own and doesn't let you see what >you are sending or where you are sending it. I can't imagine it is >really all just carelessness. Perhaps there is a case for switching to >decent software for email, such as Eudora or Pegasus, which have >free versions. There may be better packages than these available as >well. > >Regards > >_John Sampson_ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:37:06 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Latin anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading in a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. Knowing it may or may not help me construct a better index, but now my curiosity is up. tia, Craig Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:51:43 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] To sum up, the most favoured options seem to be: multiple-site indexing - indexing across many Web sites; single-site indexing - indexing the content of one Web site; document indexing - indexing a document held in one or more files within one Web site. "Most favoured" is said with some caution, as relatively few people have voiced a preference. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:10:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Linda, Thank you so much for the consensus you have gathered here. I really appreciate it. Ardith Ayotte ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Linda Sutherland To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual = indexing] > To sum up, the most favoured options seem to be: >=20 > multiple-site indexing - indexing across many Web sites; > single-site indexing - indexing the content of one Web site; > document indexing - indexing a document held in one or more files > within one Web site. >=20 > "Most favoured" is said with some caution, as relatively few people > have voiced a preference. >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Linda Sutherland > linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:19:20 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Latin anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig, Are you sure of the spellings of all the words. I'll try to run this my Classics professor friend later today. A rough guess is it's something about being in Arcadia and singing, but I'm not sure Diana Witt Craig Brown wrote: > Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading in > a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. > > Knowing it may or may not help me construct a better index, but now my > curiosity is up. > > tia, > Craig > > Craig Brown > The Last Word > Indexing Services > (314) 352-9094 > lastword@mindspring.com > http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology In-Reply-To: <000501bf2494$6ea91e00$f0c5fea9@net.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:10 PM 11/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Linda, Thank you so much for the consensus you have gathered here. >I really appreciate it. Ardith Ayotte Hi All: I do to. it may be because I'm a librarian, but having definitions clearly defined helps us to understand the concepts being discussed. Willa (looking forward to the NOMAD folk festival in Connecticut this next weekend.....). Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:17:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Latin anyone? > Craig Brown wrote: > > > Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading > in > > a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. > > > My Latin is extraordinarily rusty, but it looks suspiciously like "But whenever I am in Arcadia, I sing fatly." (???) I think I'd double-check that last word! :-) -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:32:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Images - conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI, We never thought that we would have empty seats this close to the time of the conference. But due, in part, to some cancellations, we have room available. The need for indexers of visual materials is growing rapidly. If you have the time next Saturday, you should think about joining us. Contact Martha Malnor (information below) about reserving a seat. We would like to see you there. American Society of Indexers Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Fall Meeting -- Nov. 6th, 1999 INDEXING STILL IMAGES In the last 5 years the demand for visual material has skyrocketed and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. This workshop is designed to introduce you into this rapidly changing world. A world which is now opening up for a new breed of indexers. By the end of this workshop you will have a clearer understanding of this new field. Speaker: Mies Martin Saturday November 6th Wyndham Gardens Hotel 5615 N Cumberland Avenue Chicago IL (773-695-5800) Reservations are now being taken for our Fall Meeting. Members Non-members Sept 22-Oct 22 85.00 100.00 Oct 22-Nov 3 100.00 115.00 At the door (seating is limited) 115.00 125.00 Please send registrations to: (and include your choice of Roundtable) and make checks payable to Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Martha Malnor 185 Walnut St. Elmhurst, IL 60126 The Reservation includes: Continental breakfast, buffet lunch and afternoon refreshments. Roundtable discussions will accompany the buffet lunch. Cancellation Policy: Reservation fees will be refunded for reservations cancelled before November 1st. A $15 processing fee will be deducted from the refund. After November 1st no refunds will be made on cancelled reservations. Notify Martha Malnor at 630-834-3545 if you need to cancel. PRELIMARY AGENDA 8:30 to 9:15 Registration and networking (continental breakfast available) 9:15 to 11:45 Morning program Introduction: - What is Archive Impact (AI)? - What AI has accomplished? - Who is the presenter? - Outline of the workshop itself. Break Still's Indexing: Basic Concepts - Does a picture really say a thousand words? - What is visual Literacy? - Layering of objects or elements of an image 11:45 to 1:15 Lunch and Roundtables 1. "Marketing" 2. "Ask the President"--Sandi Schroeder has graciously volunteered to answer questions about ASI, getting started, etc. (good table for indexers getting started) 1:30 to 4:00 Afternoon program Elements directly and indirectly effecting indexing - Types of visual material being indexed and the scope of the collection - The end needs of your client - The kind or types of indexing software - Time frame within which the work must be accomplished Break: and refreshments. Practice Session: attendees will also work with with sample controlled vocabulary and Indexing Policy at this point. -Break into groups to index Stills (provided by AI) -Discuss the indexing of the Stills Question and Answer session 4:00- Closing remarks and networking. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:41:45 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Indexer Locator Ad. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, This year I have given an ad. in Indexer Locator and this is my first time. So far I have not seen any result. I am particularly interested in hearing from those indexers who gave ad. in the Inderxer Locator first time and got some good results. It does not matter whether you gave ad. this year or last year or in the past. Now I am wondering whether I should continue my ad. next year or not. It does not make sense to me if I do not see any postive results. Happy indexing! MANJIT K. SAHAI Potomac Falls, VA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:11:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexer Locator Ad. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Manjit, I have also not (yet) received any results from the 1999 Indexer Locator. However, I have one client from the previous one (1997) and I received an email inquiry just about a month ago from that listing (but I could not take on the project.) So some editors do hang on to them. And my feeling was that the cost is so low that just one job will pay for it. In addition, I often use the Indexer Locator to find other indexers myself. For example, when I get a call to index a book in a subject area that I do not feel qualified in, or am not interested in, I give the caller several names of indexers listed in that subject area. If you get such referral, you may not realize that it was through the Indexer Locator. Also, I'd like to mention that we are trying some new ways of promoting the Indexer Locator this year. I sent out a press release about it to over 150 press contacts and organizations. I know that it is being mentioned in the newsletter of the Washington Independent Writers as a result. The Indexer Locator is now mentioned in our Publishers Weekly ad (which doesn't appear in every issue, but most of them). We are exhibiting at two publishing trade shows this fall and handing out copies of the Indexer Locator to authors and publishers. We are researching trade shows for 2000, as well as advertising opportunities. Whew ;-) But if you, or any other ASI members, have more ideas about where it could be promoted, please let me know. I'd love more ideas. (It may be best to discuss this on ASI-L or in private email though.) Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * 2127 Rhode Island St. * Publicity Committee Chair, * Lawrence, KS 66046 * American Society of Indexers * 785-841-3631 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John M. Rocklin" Subject: Re: Latin anyone? In-Reply-To: <07F3ED0E0DA7D1119A5B00805FA79A4803D82728@LNXCHOEXCH01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, The phrase "Et in Arcadia Ego" (usually worded as "et ego in Arcadia") means "I, too, (have been) in Arcadia," where the "I" is supposed to be Death. The "obese cantarit" part is new to me. "Obese" is the adverb meaning "coarsely" or "in an unrefined manner" and "cantarit" is perhaps a crude attempt at a past tense (like cantavit). So, the last part of this phrase is probably meant to mean something like "he sang in an unrefined manner." What is this chapter about, anyway?! I hope this helps in some small way. Cheers, John Rocklin At 02:17 PM 11/1/99 -0500, Wright, Sharon F. wrote: > > Craig Brown wrote: > > > > > Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading > > in > > > a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. > > > > > > >My Latin is extraordinarily rusty, but it looks suspiciously like "But >whenever I am in Arcadia, I sing fatly." (???) I think I'd double-check >that last word! :-) > >-- Sharon W. ---------------------------------------------------------- John M. Rocklin Indexing Services PO Box 325 35 Split Rock Road Warner, NH 03278 (603)456-3137 (phone and FAX) jrocklin@mcttelecom.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:14:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judi Alamia Subject: Re: Latin anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all, Looked up "obese cantarit" in the following site (a co-worker just sent me this nice place to look up Latin) http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe Didn't make sense to me--maybe idiomatic? It's been decades since I've studied Latin, but I'm interested in the translation too. Judi Alamia jalamia@thefund.com -----Original Message----- From: quaker1 [mailto:dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET] Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 1:19 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Latin anyone? Craig, Are you sure of the spellings of all the words. I'll try to run this my Classics professor friend later today. A rough guess is it's something about being in Arcadia and singing, but I'm not sure Diana Witt Craig Brown wrote: > Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading in > a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. > > Knowing it may or may not help me construct a better index, but now my > curiosity is up. > > tia, > Craig > > Craig Brown > The Last Word > Indexing Services > (314) 352-9094 > lastword@mindspring.com > http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:05:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Indexer's Assistant (DOS) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi, ASI is trying to update the list of indexing software products at: http://www.asindexing.org/software.htm and we cannot reach the maker of Indexer's Assistant (for DOS) at the number we have, which is (215) 837-9615. If anyone knows a new contact phone number, or the status of the vendor of this program, please post the info to this list or email me directly. Thanks Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:16:09 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Natalie Boon Subject: Re: Latin anyone? Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Craig Brown wrote: > > > Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading > > in a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. "Wright, Sharon F." wrote > My Latin is extraordinarily rusty, but it looks suspiciously like "But > whenever I am in Arcadia, I sing fatly." (???) I think I'd double-check > that last word! :-) Obese does refer to something to do with being fat. Checked in an online latin dictionary. Don't know why anyone would sing fatly, but thats the way it looks. Natalie ----------------------------------------------------- Natalie Boon natalieboon@icqmail.com ICQ#: 52895289 Information Architect Higher Studies Abroad Project Institute for Leadership Development (ILD): A United Nations Global Partnership Program ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:33:28 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Latin anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Thanks to all who responded (on list and off) and to those in digest mode who might yet respond. I have a sense of the Latin phrase "Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit." One that looks credible to me is "And I go into Arcadia, singing greatly!" For those of you who questioned the spelling, I copied it correctly which is not to say it is spelled correctly. I will pass that information along to the editor who is always grateful for caught typos. As always, I'm impressed by this group's depth of knowledge and willingness to help others. Thanks! Craig Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: Re: Moan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have much trouble with Netscape Mail...AND it writes every post to a Sent file if you want it to, so you can see exactly what you've sent and when. I heartily recommend it. The download is free. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit the World of Whislbabe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: Re: Latin anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig Brown wrote: > > Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading in > a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. > > Knowing it may or may not help me construct a better index, but now my > curiosity is up. > > tia, > Craig I dunno, but I think it means "...and in Arcadia, the fat lady sang!" ;-) -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit the World of Whislbabe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:40:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tzolelet@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Latin anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What I make of the quote is "Even though I am (now) in Acadia, I shall have sung..." and the last word, "obese" eludes me, although it appears to be an adverbial construction. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:37:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: Indexer Locator Ad. Comments: To: Manjit Sahai In-Reply-To: <19991101194145.93521.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Now I am wondering whether I should continue my ad. next year or not. It >does not make sense to me if I do not see any postive results. Hi Manjit, My first year in the Locator brought me an $800 index. My third year in brought me a bite for a huge project that I decided I wasn't skilled enough to accept yet. Beyond that, having a listing supports the concept and supports the organization which does PR on behalf of indexers and indexing nationally. Therefore, and for all those reasons, I'm IN for the duration. Martha Osgood Back Words indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:24:00 -0800 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: Re: Latin anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anne wrote: > What I make of the quote is "Even though I am (now) in Acadia, I shall have > sung..." and the last word, "obese" eludes me, although it appears to be an > adverbial construction. > Maybe obese means singly roundly?? since obese also means coarsely and roundly (according to Webster's 3rd) can mean bluntly But I prefer that roundly take on the meaning "vigor" Can you tell that I am nearing a deadline???? Kathleen Paparchontis K & D, Associates, Indexing, Editing, and Proofreading 916-344-3846 916-344-9564 (fax) kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:52:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judi Alamia Subject: Re: Latin anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all-- According to my contact who is an art fan, the first part of this ("Et in Arcadia") is "a Latin phrase found in Virgil's fifth eclogue that translates literally as "Even in Arcady, there am I," or "Death is even in Arcady" " and it is the title of a famous painting by Nicolas Poussin. This seems definitive. Source follows: http://www.parnasse.com/etpnt.htm As for the rest...who knows? Judi jalamia@thefund.com -----Original Message----- From: Tzolelet@AOL.COM [mailto:Tzolelet@AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 4:40 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Latin anyone? What I make of the quote is "Even though I am (now) in Acadia, I shall have sung..." and the last word, "obese" eludes me, although it appears to be an adverbial construction. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:15:37 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Arel Lucas Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yes, that's a truly wonderful site. I'm also confronted with the problem of recommending software for a thesaurus/taxonomy project. So far, from looking at the site below, MultiTes looks good. Does anyone have recommendations or criticisms of this or a similar thesaurus management program? I've looked through the archives but haven't found anything. Reply to me privately at arel@pacbell.net or to the list if others are interested. I can summarize for the list if this is more desirable. Many thanks for this invaluable list! Arel Lucas ---------------- >From: Alan Walker >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:34:59 +1000 > >At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon wrote: > >I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a >database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources >dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can >anybody recommend anything? > >Start by looking at > >This site is the full bottle on anything to do with thesaurus construction. >Invaluable. > >Alan > >-- > >Alan Walker, Indexer >President, Australian Society of Indexers >10 Rockwall Crescent >Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia >Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 >Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 >Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:21:55 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Latin anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seemed definitive to me too, until I actually tried to find it in Virgil's text. I sure don't see it and Eclogue 5 isn't very long. My searches of the Perseus database of Latin text have not located it elsewhere either. This is THE place to find classical Latin and Greek texts, but no luck on this one (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/) at least not yet. If the first phrase is a mystery, the second is downright baffling. Two possibilities exist for "cantarit" but both are 3rd person singular and neither fit well with the typical interpretations of the first phrase. I gotta dig more on this...... and I wish this hadn't come up. Nick Koenig >Hi all-- > >According to my contact who is an art fan, the first part of this ("Et in >Arcadia") is "a Latin phrase found in Virgil's fifth eclogue that translates >literally as "Even in Arcady, there am I," or "Death is even in Arcady" " >and it is the title of a famous painting by Nicolas Poussin. > >This seems definitive. Source follows: > >http://www.parnasse.com/etpnt.htm > >As for the rest...who knows? > >Judi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:29:28 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Latin anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading in >a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. Et in Arcadia Ego (with the words in that order) "often translated as 'I too in Arcadia', may more correctly mean 'I in Arcadia as well', and refer to death" (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature). The last two words are corrupt and not classical. I think they should be "Obesa Cantavit" (The fat lady sang). I remember reading, but haven't been able to verify, that "ET IN ARCADIA EGO" is an inscription found in an ancient tomb. "Obese cantarit" is obviously a bad translation from the English. Anyway, the meaning is: "'Et in Arcadia ego', the fat lady sang." Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 01:05:50 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Latin anyone? In-Reply-To: <199911020504.AAA26056@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Can anyone help me with a Latin phrase that appears as a topic heading in >a book I'm indexing? It is: Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. > >Knowing it may or may not help me construct a better index, but now my >curiosity is up. I looked this up in Barlett's. The first phrase is translated as "I too am in Arcadia" and explained in the footnote as, "That is, Even in Arcadia there am I [Death]." The footnote goes on to say, "Bartolommeo Schidoni [1560-1616] wrote: 'Er ego in Arcadia vixi [I too have live in Arcadia]. Poussin, Reynolds, and others used this phrase in their paintings. Erwin Panofsky discusses the phrase in _Philosophy and History: Essays Presented to E. Cassirer_ [1936]." I didn't find anything for the "Obese Cantarit" part. I tried the _Oxford Companion to Classical Literature_; there's an entry for Arcadia but nothing about that phrase. The inhabitants of Arcadia were thought to be the oldest people in Greece. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:34:58 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Latin anyone? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:29 pm 2/11/99 +1300, Simon Cauchi wrote: >I remember reading, but haven't been able to verify, that "ET IN ARCADIA >EGO" is an inscription found in an ancient tomb. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations says: "Et in Arcadia ego. And I too in Arcadia. Tomb inscription often depicted in classical paintings. The meaning is disputed." (ODQ files it under "Anonymous".) I am sure Simon is right about the rest of the quote. Alan -- Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:35:29 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Potential AAARGH! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just received a note from a satisfied client: Thanks so much for the great job - it looks excellent. So, next to get it into layout and then give it a good read. It's so good to get the initial hard work done by a professional. Initial? Whatever can they be planning to do? I just hope they don't intend to put my name to it! Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:54:47 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laurence Errington Subject: Norton Systemworks MIME-Version: 1.0 I infrequently access Index-L so you may jave aired this topic. I've just installed Norton Systemworks, the all- singing all-dancing utility (Antivirus, uninstaller, diagnostics, crashguard etc.). My system seems to be considerably slower since then. Occasionaly some programs are really grinding along especially in DOS, e.g. Macrex save to disc (sometimes more than 10 or 20 times slower). I seem to have a memory of someone saying something about this problem. Anyone else with experience on this? Are there any specific parts of Norton that make the problem worse and anything one can do about it? -- Dr Laurence Errington 15 Kirkhill Terrace, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH16 5DQ Tel: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 Fax: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 (9-7pm GMT weekdays only) E-Mail: laurence@errington-index.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:17:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Index Locator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi all: Manjit, I think being listed in the Index Locator is part of the overall marketing package. If you are serious about indexing as a profession, you should do everything possible to reflect that image. Membership in ASI and a listing in the Index Locator is part of the overall marketing efforts, as is membership in groups like the Science/Medicine SIG. In the past two years, I've gotten work from all three efforts, so I feel that it is worth while being listed in the Index Locator. This is just my opinion, but I think being listed in the Index Locator is just one aspect of your marketing efforts. Willa (looking forward to four hours of playing contra dance music tonite...) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 05:54:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Posada Subject: Re: Potential AAARGH! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sounds like: 1) You haven't deined the scope of the project. 2) You're making assumptions without any information. Have you asked the customer? They are the only one that knows tha answer to the question. > Thanks so much for the great job - it looks > excellent. So, next to get it > into layout and then give it a good read. It's so > good to get the initial > hard work done by a professional. > > Initial? Whatever can they be planning to do? I just > hope they don't intend > to put my name to it! > > Michael Wyatt > Keyword Editorial Services > 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia > Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 > keyword@ozemail.com.au > ===== John Posada, Merck Research Laboratories Sr Technical Writer, WinHelp and html (work) john_posada@merck.com - 732-594-0873 (pers) jposada01@yahoo.com - 732-291-7811 "The art of creating software that is usable by individuals is a communication skill. It is not a programming skill." --Bill Atkinson, creator of MacPaint and HyperCard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: kbab@northnet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Babbitt Subject: Re: Norton Systemworks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Laurence-- I had the same experience when I installed Systemworks this past summer. My problem was that I didn't have enough memory to handle the program. As I talked with a local tech I learned that this is a very common problem with Norton software. I resolved my problem by uninstalling the software and reinstalling only the virus protect part. The other parts I ran from the CD. I've just bought a laptop with grunges more memory than my desktop, so I can talk about my problem (thankfully) in the past tense. Good luck--I know how frustrating this can be. When it happened to me it cost me a day's work. Kate Babbitt Copyeditor and sometime indexer kbab@northnet.org Laurence Errington wrote: > I infrequently access Index-L so you may jave aired this topic. I've > just installed Norton Systemworks, the all- singing all-dancing utility > (Antivirus, uninstaller, diagnostics, crashguard etc.). > > My system seems to be considerably slower since then. Occasionaly some > programs are really grinding along especially in DOS, e.g. Macrex save > to disc (sometimes more than 10 or 20 times slower). I seem to have a > memory of someone saying something about this problem. Anyone else with > experience on this? Are there any specific parts of Norton that make the > problem worse and anything one can do about it? > > -- > Dr Laurence Errington > 15 Kirkhill Terrace, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH16 5DQ > Tel: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 > Fax: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 (9-7pm GMT weekdays only) > E-Mail: laurence@errington-index.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:56:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: Re: Potential AAARGH! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Wyatt wrote: > > I have just received a note from a satisfied client: > > Thanks so much for the great job - it looks excellent. So, next to get it > into layout and then give it a good read. It's so good to get the initial > hard work done by a professional. > > Initial? Whatever can they be planning to do? I just hope they don't intend > to put my name to it! Sounds to me like they just plan to have it typeset, Michael. I wouldn't worry. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit the World of Whislbabe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:25:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Arizona ASI Nov.20 program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Arizona chapter of the American Society of Indexers is proud to announce our next program on November 20, 1999: So, You Want To Be an Indexer, II A revised and expanded workshop based on the popular 1998 presentation If you've ever considered professional indexing as a career, this workshop is for you. Whether you are ready to launch a freelance business, are interested in moonlighting, or are simply curious, this workshop will answer many of the common questions asked about indexers and indexing. Last year=92s session is not a prerequisite for this session. However, if you attended last year=92s session, you won=92t be bored. You=92ll learn eve= n more about the profession. This workshop will include a review of some of the information covered in our first session, including * Educational and networking resources * Starting and marketing your indexing business * Equipment and software needs In addition, we will spend a large part of the workshop discussing the actual process of indexing and index quality, including * Benchmarks of a quality index * Page proofs, files and working with publishers * Marking text and working methods * Making choices (terms, restrictions, etc.) * Meeting deadlines November 20, 1999 8:30 - 9:00 Registration and networking 9:00 - 12:00 Presentations Location: Twin Palms Hotel 225 Apache Blvd. Tempe, AZ 85281 Call (800) 367-0835 for directions Cost: $20.00 for ASI members and non-members (includes all workshop materials and refreshments) Please visit our web site for a registration form: http://aztec.asu.edu/azasi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:27:31 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melinda Davis Organization: Univ. of Tennessee College of Law Subject: Re: Latin anyone? In-Reply-To: <19991101221837.DHEP12296@pavilion> What is the context of the quote in the "to-be-indexed" text? I'm wondering if this is "pseudo" Latin, i.e., a classical look on a slangy expression? Maybe we should be looking in the Latin phrase books that tell you how to say "Elvis has left the building." The sense might be "even in Arcadia, there is death; the fat lady must sing," meaning everything must end. I can't think of the name of the rhetorical device, but it's when you say something two different ways for emphasis. I know just enough to be dangerous. Melinda Melinda D. Davis Assistant Professor and Catalog Librarian College of Law Library University of Tennessee 1505 W. Cumberland Avenue Knoxville, TN 37996-1800 (865) 974-6552 (865) 974-6571 (fax) e-mail: davis@libra.law.utk.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:47:03 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Latin redux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 11/2/1999 9:27 AM Melinda Davis wrote (in part): >What is the context of the quote in the "to-be-indexed" text? I've had a number of inquiries about this. The book is about baseball, specifically about baseball literature. The section which follows this heading deals with pastoral symbolism. That's the theme I've used for indexing the section. Thanks again for all suggestions. Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:49:31 +0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Et in Arcadia ego MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Craig Brown's query concerning the Latin quotation Et in Arcadia ego: Here's an interesting instance of misinformation from the web: the Poussin website (http://www.parnasse.com/etpnt.htm) states that the source of Et in Arcadia ego is Vergil's Fifth Eclogue. While Vergil does mention Arcadia in his Eclogues, he isn't the source of this quote. According to Renzo Tosi's Dizionario dell sentenze latine e greche, there is no known author for this phrase; it was a commonplace in pastoral art and literature denoting that death is present even in idyllic settings. I guess the moral of this is that, like death, misinformation is everywhere. Roberta Engleman rae@email.unc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:00:12 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Potential AAARGH! In-Reply-To: <003601bf25a4$4c2942e0$48906ccb@michaelw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some editors do go through line by line checking against the text, but I've never had one actually change an entry for the worse - and as others have noted, sometimes when we look at an index months later we wonder how we could have made such an entry. So be optimistic - maybe it's just a final check for total accuracy! Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com >Initial? Whatever can they be planning to do? I just hope they >don't intend >to put my name to it! Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:02:53 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Norton Systemworks In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every PC tech I've known groans when they hear a Norton program is installed on a machine. Also, I really believe it's a mistake to buy something from Symantec in the fourth quarter of the year. They have a reputation (at least judging by the hundreds and hundreds of user comments on user groups) of releasing buggy software in the fourth quarter to up sales for end of year profit margins. Then they gradually fix it (mostly) during the next year with Web-based updates. Norton Utilities III was a good example of this. Charles -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Errington Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 12:55 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Norton Systemworks I infrequently access Index-L so you may jave aired this topic. I've just installed Norton Systemworks, the all- singing all-dancing utility (Antivirus, uninstaller, diagnostics, crashguard etc.). My system seems to be considerably slower since then. Occasionaly some programs are really grinding along especially in DOS, e.g. Macrex save to disc (sometimes more than 10 or 20 times slower). I seem to have a memory of someone saying something about this problem. Anyone else with experience on this? Are there any specific parts of Norton that make the problem worse and anything one can do about it? -- Dr Laurence Errington 15 Kirkhill Terrace, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH16 5DQ Tel: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 Fax: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 (9-7pm GMT weekdays only) E-Mail: laurence@errington-index.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:33:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've recently worked on several books with *lot* of substantive endnotes (the most recent had 120 pages of endnotes. Ouch.) We've probably looked at this before, but I'm wondering if anyone has a different/better take on the following question. I've been entering endnotes this way: James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15)* This sort of thing can get really tough to read if a number of entries in a row contain strings of locators like this. (The format is that preferred by some of my clients.) My question: What are the pros and cons of entering the above locators this way instead: James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) Opinions, anyone? Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net *Yes, I know, it's more than 5 locators. I don't know about anyone else, but I find that I often violate the "rule of five" when I'm tight on space. I try to avoid 10 locators, but I think 7 or even 8 may be preferable to leaving out information in order to squeeze in some subheads. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:47:31 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Norton Systemworks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:14:15 PM Central Standard Time, anderson@THE-INDEXER.COM writes: << Every PC tech I've known groans when they hear a Norton program is installed on a machine. >> That has been my experience also. I installed Norton Antivirus and had 3 problems with my computer. Norton would admit to causing only one and sent an updated file that didn't fix it. They said the others were caused by my system being "unstable and I just didn't notice it until I installed Norton." I called Dell and they said the problems were caused by Norton. PCcillin antivirus had never caused a problem, so I will go back to their product someday. Micki Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:41:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Monica Smersh Subject: contract MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello! Would any of you wonderful indexers out there be willing to help a newcomer by emailing or faxing me samples of contract that you use? I would be very grateful, as this aspect of the business is confusing and foreign to me. I am excited about having two upcoming projects with a small publisher and I want to be sure to get this right. Thanks a lot :) Monica Smersh msmers@seanet.com FAX # (208) 248-8423 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:22:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Crowley Subject: High Tech Heretic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (Please excuse the cross-posting.) Greetings! I posted this to AUTOCAT, the catalogers' listserv. Since there are kudos for indexers, I thought I'd pass along the posting. Julie * * * * We just got a copy of Clifford Stoll's High Tech Heretic : Why Computers Don't Belong in the Classroom and Other Reflections by a Computer Contrarian. Doubleday. 1999. ISBN: 0385489757 It's a GREAT read! This kind of dovetails in with the Building the Earth's Largest Library discussion. Stoll makes a plug for catalogers and indexers in his chapter entitled "Junk Food and the Internet." He explains the sloppiness of the Internet search engines' searches, describing the Internet as "an ocean of mediocrity." Please bear with me as I quote from p.190-192: * * * * * Their searches lack depth and breadth: The search engines typically ignore between 60 and 90 percent of all Web pages. Computerized search engiines are no substitute for a well-cataloged library. Library catalogers -- perhaps the least thanked of a seldom thanked profession -- add value to already valuable information. Like indexers, they classify, categorize. And like indexers, theirs is a job that's perceived as easily automated. It ain't so. Fundamentally, search engines and automated indexing software search for words, not concepts. They know not about language nuances and context. A human indexer, too, does far more than simply categorize. She interprets. Looks for meaning. Provides context, cross-references, weaves diverse threads into easily searched entries. She digs out concepts, rather than scanning for words. Tying together subtle points and themes -- bringing value to text -- is the sole province of the human indexer. * * * * * Stoll makes many thought-provoking points. It's worth the read! Julie Moore Crowley Cataloger Stetson University College of Law 1401 61st St. S. St. Petersburg, FL 33707 727-562-7829; FAX: 727-345-8973 crowley@law.stetson.edu "Remember that you become what you practice most. You can choose to bring forth in yourself qualities of compassion, patience, kindness, humility, and peace through what you practice." -- Don't sweat the small stuff -- and it's all small stuff / by Richard Carlson. * * * Cataloging Rules!!! * * * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:43:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: High Tech Heretic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julie Crowley wrote: > > I posted this to AUTOCAT, the catalogers' listserv. Since there are > kudos for indexers, I thought I'd pass along the posting. Thanks for sharing this! What an eloquent encapsulation of the very points many of us have been trying to make! --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:21:26 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes In-Reply-To: <199911022051.PAA29179@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello - In the case of a book with voluminous end-notes, I wonder if one should not simply treat the end-notes as ordinary text? In that case, just give the page numbers where the end-notes appear. This is how it is done in my copy of Hayek's 'Constitution of Liberty', for what it is worth. Otherwise, where there is more than one end-note on a page referring to the subject, the suggested method of giving the page number once only, followed by the note numbers in parens, seems simple and clear. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 06:54:32 -0600 Reply-To: horne@fwb.gulf.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Horne Subject: Re: High Tech Heretic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oJulie Crowley wrote: > > (Please excuse the cross-posting.) > > Greetings! > > I posted this to AUTOCAT, the catalogers' listserv. Since there are kudos > for indexers, I thought I'd pass along the posting. > > Julie > > * * * * > > We just got a copy of Clifford Stoll's High Tech Heretic : Why Computers > Don't Belong in the Classroom and Other Reflections by a Computer > Contrarian. Doubleday. 1999. ISBN: 0385489757 > > It's a GREAT read! > > This kind of dovetails in with the Building the Earth's Largest Library > discussion. > > Stoll makes a plug for catalogers and indexers in his chapter entitled > "Junk Food and the Internet." He explains the sloppiness of the Internet > search engines' searches, describing the Internet as "an ocean of > mediocrity." > > Please bear with me as I quote from p.190-192: > > * * * * * > Their searches lack depth and breadth: The search engines typically ignore > between 60 and 90 percent of all Web pages. > > Computerized search engiines are no substitute for a well-cataloged > library. Library catalogers -- perhaps the least thanked of a seldom > thanked profession -- add value to already valuable information. Like > indexers, they classify, categorize. And like indexers, theirs is a job > that's perceived as easily automated. It ain't so. > > Fundamentally, search engines and automated indexing software search for > words, not concepts. They know not about language nuances and context. > > A human indexer, too, does far more than simply categorize. She > interprets. Looks for meaning. Provides context, cross-references, weaves > diverse threads into easily searched entries. She digs out concepts, > rather than scanning for words. Tying together subtle points and themes -- > bringing value to text -- is the sole province of the human indexer. > > * * * * * > Stoll makes many thought-provoking points. It's worth the read! > > Julie Moore Crowley > Cataloger > Stetson University College of Law > 1401 61st St. S. > St. Petersburg, FL 33707 > 727-562-7829; FAX: 727-345-8973 > crowley@law.stetson.edu > > "Remember that you become what you practice most. You can choose to bring > forth in yourself qualities of compassion, patience, kindness, humility, > and peace through what you practice." > -- Don't sweat the small stuff -- and it's all small stuff / by Richard > Carlson. > > * * * Cataloging Rules!!! * * * Clifford Stoll also wrote The Cuckoo's Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of Computer Espionage. It talks about his experiences as a grad student trying to find an elusive hacker breaking into the university's computers and where the trail led him. An interesting read and a good writer. Bob Horne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: Noeline Bridge Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In the case of a book with voluminous end-notes, I wonder if one > should not simply treat the end-notes as ordinary text? In that case, > just give the page numbers where the end-notes appear. This is how > it is done in my copy of Hayek's 'Constitution of Liberty', for what it > is worth. > > Otherwise, where there is more than one end-note on a page > referring to the subject, the suggested method of giving the page > number once only, followed by the note numbers in parens, seems > simple and clear. I have just finished indexing a book where I used page numbers only as locators for names and concepts in the end-notes. However, in this case the notes were not densely concentrated on the page--the layout was more spacious than usual--so the index terms could be easily seen by the user. And as I would have had to use both chapter and note numbers otherwise, the notes being separately numbered for each chapter, the extra fuss and clutter led me to the unorthodox thought of using page numbers only. However, I'm not sure I'd use page numbers only for "voluminous end-notes," as these are usually so densely printed readers may have more trouble finding the terms than interpreting the numbering. Kara's suggestion of multiple note numbers in parentheses seems splendid and is timely for me. I'd been trying ways of handling this only yesterday, for my current index. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:46:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kara, I think your second option would be much easier for the reader. So it passes the indexing litmus test. Good idea. Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com > I've recently worked on several books with *lot* of substantive endnotes > (the most recent had 120 pages of endnotes. Ouch.) We've probably looked > at this before, but I'm wondering if anyone has a different/better take on > the following question. > > I've been entering endnotes this way: > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15)* > > This sort of thing can get really tough to read if a number of entries in a > row contain strings of locators like this. (The format is that preferred > by some of my clients.) > > My question: What are the pros and cons of entering the above locators > this way instead: > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) > > > Opinions, anyone? > > Kara Pekar > Wordsmith Indexing Services > jkpekar@crosslink.net > > *Yes, I know, it's more than 5 locators. I don't know about anyone else, > but I find that I often violate the "rule of five" when I'm tight on space. > I try to avoid 10 locators, but I think 7 or even 8 may be preferable to > leaving out information in order to squeeze in some subheads. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: High Tech Heretic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > * * * * * > Their searches lack depth and breadth: The search engines typically ignore > between 60 and 90 percent of all Web pages. > Now if they ignored the 60 to 90 percent that is mediocre to garbage that would be fine! ;-D The hazards of taking information from the web were well illustrated with the recent Latin quote as well as another quote a few weeks back (I forget what that one was exactly) In both cases conflicting (and incorrect) information was found. Not to say that the information in libraries is all correct, but it does seem to be a little easier to sort the wheat from the chaff. Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:36:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Raising rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just stumbled across this article about raising rates. Thought it would be relevant to those interested. It seems to have some solid advice, even covering the idea of raising project rates (which can translate into hourly)./Dan ===================================================== Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word for Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:24:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Re: Raising rates In-Reply-To: <00ab01bf264b$e7a7cdc0$7942b6d1@iwillp3450> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Where's the article, Dan? At 05:36 PM 11/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >I just stumbled across this article about raising rates. Thought it would be >relevant to those interested. It seems to have some solid advice, even >covering the idea of raising project rates (which can translate into >hourly)./Dan > > >===================================================== >Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com >Word for Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com >===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Raising rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You know, I was wondering about some of the replies I was getting... Ok, I was in jury duty all day and my brain is fried from lack of activity... http://www.brennerbooks.com/rates.html There. How's that?/Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Lane To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 6:24 PM Subject: Re: Raising rates > Where's the article, Dan? > > At 05:36 PM 11/3/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I just stumbled across this article about raising rates. Thought it would be > >relevant to those interested. It seems to have some solid advice, even > >covering the idea of raising project rates (which can translate into > >hourly)./Dan > > > > > >===================================================== > >Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com > >Word for Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com > >===================================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:12:18 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Remember that this is often a choice that the publisher makes, whichever opinion we may have about it! That said, I usually use Noeline's second version (with the note numbers combined under the page numbers, continued if necessary). I started doing this after checking with a couple of publishers and finding that this was what they wanted. I think using plain page numbers for dense endnotes (i.e. treating them as text) would be a disservice to the reader. It's surprisingly hard to find something specific on a page like that. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 02:00:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: endnote locators, I think we're missing the point of Kara's original question: >My question: What are the pros and cons of entering the above locators >this way instead: > >James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) > Her question appears to be more directed at using page ranges as well as multiple notes in parentheses. I have trouble with lumping page ranges together if the notes are not consecutive, even if they are on the same subject. My preference for this would be: James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(nn 3,5,7), 288-289(n 9), 292(n 15) supposing, of course, that those are the pages on which the notes appeared. You might have a point with page ranges if the notes were consecutive and all on the same subject: James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3,4,5,6,7,8,9), 292(n 15) but in your sample there appear to be notes on different topics between the notes given. Of course, on regular text pages multiple headings can be continued over several page ranges which is OK, so my position is not being very consistent (it's 2 AM and I'm getting sleepy); I can't explain it, but I still feel that using a page range only when a specific note is continued on more than one page is better. And, of course, Do Mi is right --it is the publisher's choice. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:15:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Bailey Subject: High-Tech Heretic Thanks for the steer to Clifford Stoll's new book. It's extremely interesting from both the point of view of an indexer/cataloger and of a parent. The thing I enjoyed most though was the "Index with an Attitude" at the back of the book. Includes such entries as "clocks, superfluous", "Empty promises, of the past", and "Intellectual passivity See also Educational dullness; Nation of dolts." There is no reference to the indexer -- he may have done it himself!!!!! Always wanted to create an index like this! Liz B. ******************************************************************************* Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Ernst & Young LLP ******************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone who has replied. Consensus so far seems to be that the second option (see below) is easier to read and hence easier for the reader. I will also point out that it takes up less space. The discussion isn't closed -- feel free to weigh in if you have additional or opposing thoughts! first option: > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15) second option: > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:45:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Natalie Boon Subject: Preferred terms and software Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Hello, I've posted on a related subject before, but hope you'll bear with me because I just found out something new. I'm constructing a thesaurus and am looking at software packages. MultiTes has been recommended to me, but I heard that it limits the number of non-preferred terms you can include. One characteristic of the thesaurus that I'm constructing is a large number of preferred/non-preferred term relationships. Does anyone use a software package that will accommodate this? Thanks again, Natalie ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 12:36:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kathy \"Stella\" Buczynski" Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently I had the opportunity to use this term in an index. I saw it spelled differently in different instances. According to Webster's New World Dictionary, the prefix is xero- not xeri-, could it be possible that Denver trademarked the alternate spelling as they have used it for the same meaning? Can xeroscaping be used without the TM designation? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 12:47:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan_Weiss@TAX.ORG Subject: Re: Preferred terms and software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We recently purchased MultiTes and are trying to convert our existing thesaurus. We have run into several problems. Once you use a term as a main term, you cannot use that word in a subentry. We had not expected to run into a problem like that. We have also had problems with cross references. For example, we have this entry in our current thesaurus: employment status subentry: computer contractors Our current thesaurus has this cross reference: computer contractors use under: employment status It seems that MultiTes cannot cope with that type of cross reference. Are there any MultiTes users who have encountered these problems. I'm not familiar with the problem you raised about limits on preferred terms. Have you discussed this with the people at Multisystems? Sue Weiss sweiss@tax.org Natalie Boon @LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> on 11/04/99 11:45:32 AM Please respond to "Indexer's Discussion Group" Sent by: "Indexer's Discussion Group" To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU cc: Subject: Preferred terms and software Hello, I've posted on a related subject before, but hope you'll bear with me because I just found out something new. I'm constructing a thesaurus and am looking at software packages. MultiTes has been recommended to me, but I heard that it limits the number of non-preferred terms you can include. One characteristic of the thesaurus that I'm constructing is a large number of preferred/non-preferred term relationships. Does anyone use a software package that will accommodate this? Thanks again, Natalie ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:38:26 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: End-note locators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello - My suggestion that end-notes should be referred to by page numbers only seems to be unpopular. However, in defence, I would suggest that in a world where apparently readers do not know how to use cross-references (previous discussion in Index-L), there is a case for keeping things simple. I find it hard to believe that it is significantly more difficult to find an item on a page of end-notes than on a page of body text. It depends on the size of print. In practice I would follow standards, but I wonder how much we really know about what helps users. _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:54:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Latin redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well! That the book is about baseball is definitive about the second clause in "Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. The reference is undoubtedly to "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings", which I believe is attributed to Yogi Berra and thought to refer to Kate Smith (a weighty singer who often sang at baseball games, although where and why at the *end* of games I do not know). So I would start with "I (Death) too am in Arcadia, the fat lady [some form of the verb 'to sing']", and leave it to the Latinists and poets to refine. Joel Craig Brown wrote: > > On 11/2/1999 9:27 AM Melinda Davis wrote (in part): > > >What is the context of the quote in the "to-be-indexed" text? > > I've had a number of inquiries about this. The book is about baseball, > specifically about baseball literature. The section which follows this > heading deals with pastoral symbolism. That's the theme I've used for > indexing the section. > > Thanks again for all suggestions. > > Craig Brown > The Last Word > Indexing Services > (314) 352-9094 > lastword@mindspring.com > http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:08:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: (Implicit) highly favorable review of an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The book review excerpt below is perhaps the highest (implicit) praise that can be given to a book's index - to cite it as the epitome of the tone and mood of the book. The book that is the subject of this review was originally published in England in 1979 under the title "Scott and Amundsen". I have not yet looked at either the American or British publications. Thus I do not know whether the index in the British publication used the same - or similarly descriptive - terms. The index entries cited below seem to be in chronological order, which adds a definite momentum and inevitability to them; but I don't know whether they have been rearranged by the reviewer. Also, note that the American publication lacks footnotes and bibliography - see the second excerpt below from the review. So someone must have decided the index was more important! (The American republication is one of a series on exploration edited by Jon Krakauer, author of "Into Thin Air".) Joel ____ Modern Library: "The Last Place on Earth", by Roland Huntford (September 1999). Paperback, $14.95. Reviewed by Caroline Alexander, The New York Times Book Review, October 31, 1999 ("Bookend", page 43). "A glance through Huntford's index neatly summarizes his angle. Under 'Scott, Robert Falcon', one finds the following entries: 'continued mistrust of dogs' ... 'use of ponies' ... 'Shackleton fixation' ... 'quarrels and tension with companions' ... 'sinking of motor sledge' ... 'lost faith in motor sledges' ... 'little margin of safety' ... 'personal crisis' ... 'forced to admit dogs' superiority to ponies' ...'risk in adding fifth man to polar party' ... 'faulty sledge meters' [sic; perhaps this should have been "motors"?] ... 'thirst and starvation' ... 'discovery of defeat' ... 'loses way' ... 'collapse as leader' ... 'last camp and immolation in tent' ... 'self-justifying message to public' ... 'as heroic bungler'. "... (it is to be regretted that the marvelous bibliography and meticulous footnoting of the original English edition are not included in this revision)." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:11:24 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: Preferred terms and software In-Reply-To: <8525681F.0061E2B5.00@mail.tax.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <8525681F.0061E2B5.00@mail.tax.org>, on Thu, 4 Nov 1999 at 12:47:46, writes >We recently purchased MultiTes and are trying to convert our existing thesaurus. >We have run into several problems. Once you use a term as a main term, you >cannot use that word in a subentry. >We have also had problems with cross references. For example, we have this entry >in our current thesaurus: > >employment status >subentry: computer contractors > >Our current thesaurus has this cross reference: > >computer contractors > use under: employment status > >It seems that MultiTes cannot cope with that type of cross reference. It looks to me as though you are confusing the sort of relationship that occurs in a thesaurus with the way in which you combine terms when creating an index. In a thesaurus it is unlikely that you would have a relationship between "computer contractors" and "employment status". You might have contractors NT building contractors computer contractors employees NT contractors permanent employees probationary employees temporary employees trainees employment status NT casual employment contract employment permanent employment temporary employment I don't know what sort of relationship you intend by the "subentry/use under" pair of terms. "Subentry" is a term used when building an index, not a thesaurus, where you are creating a "pre-coordinate" combination of two concepts in order to express a compound idea. In a thesaurus the main type of hierarchical relationship is the specific/generic one, where the narrower term is a "kind of" the broader term. Computer contractors are not a kind of employment status, though they are a kind of contractors. If you can explain more fully how you are using the thesaurus in relationship to indexes you build from its terms, I might be able to clarify further if necessary. In addition to the standard USE/UF, BT/NT and RT/RT relationships, MultiTes does allow you to create three additional user-defined relationships with the same properties as each of these types, so you can have a total of 12 relationships. Do you need something different? > Natalie Boon @LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> on 11/04/99 11:45:32 AM says: > > MultiTes has >been recommended to me, but I heard that it limits the number of non-preferred >terms you can include. > You had better ask the suppliers for a definitive answer to this, but I have not found any such limitation. I have just experimented with MultiTes by making 20 different non- preferred terms all point to the same preferred term, without any problem. Did the source of your information mean this, or that there is a limit to the number of non-preferred terms in the thesaurus altogether? It seems unlikely. Regards Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 (0)20 8372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex EN2 7BQ, UK. Fax: +44 (0)20 8372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk ---------------- ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:12:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes In-Reply-To: <199911022051.PAA29179@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:33 PM 11/2/99 -0500, Kara Pekar wrote: >I've recently worked on several books with *lot* of substantive endnotes >(the most recent had 120 pages of endnotes. Ouch.) We've probably looked >at this before, but I'm wondering if anyone has a different/better take on >the following question. > >I've been entering endnotes this way: > >James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15)* > >This sort of thing can get really tough to read if a number of entries in a >row contain strings of locators like this. (The format is that preferred >by some of my clients.) > >My question: What are the pros and cons of entering the above locators >this way instead: > >James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) > > >Opinions, anyone? And at 10:29 AM 11/4/99 -0500, Kara Pekar wrote: >Thanks to everyone who has replied. Consensus so far seems to be that the >second option (see below) is easier to read and hence easier for the >reader. I will also point out that it takes up less space. The discussion >isn't closed -- feel free to weigh in if you have additional or opposing >thoughts! > >first option: >> > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15) > >second option: >> > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) I appreciate and am intrigued by your suggestion, Kara. As for the pros, I like its improvement of readability and saving of space; and as for the cons, even though the format seems clear enough, I have qualms about indexing notes that occur on single pages as though they occur within page ranges. (If it weren't for the occurrence of note 5 across pages 287 and 288 we would not consider indexing notes 3, 7, and 9 as "287-288(nn 3, 7, 9)".) If space were a big problem I think I'd be glad to follow your suggestion, but if space were not a big problem I think I'd prefer just to eliminate what I see as the primary and completely unnecessary source of confusion in the first option -- the "spaced out" and disintegrated locator "288(nn 7, 9)" -- by removing the spaces before the multiple note numbers. To me James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn7,9), 292(n15) is much more readable than James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15) As I read the latter I actually do fine until I get to "288(nn 7, 9)", but when I get there the whole line begins to break down. Reading the former shows that eliminating spaces within locators improves readability by keeping individual locators unified and well-distinguished from each other (and hopefully this is something that editors can readily appreciate and accept!). Indeed, if I were to use your suggestion I'd want to do the same thing -- to enter James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn3,5,7,9), 292(n15) instead of James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) >*Yes, I know, it's more than 5 locators. I don't know about anyone else, >but I find that I often violate the "rule of five" when I'm tight on space. > I try to avoid 10 locators, but I think 7 or even 8 may be preferable to >leaving out information in order to squeeze in some subheads. I too use more than five locators after headings when I'm tight on space -- even when I'm not tight on space, whenever I index numerous (and usually not identical) instances of a topic. For me this "rule" is not a rule -- and not even a guideline -- but serves as a caution or reminder not to throw locators together indiscriminately. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:15:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes Comments: cc: brackney@NCCN.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Brackney writes: > I have qualms about >indexing notes that occur on single pages as though they occur within page >ranges. (If it weren't for the occurrence of note 5 across pages 287 and >288 we would not consider indexing notes 3, 7, and 9 as "287-288(nn 3, 7, >9)".) Thank you Michael --that is precisely the point I was trying to make last night. You have made it much more succinctly than I could at 2 AM! Thanks again, Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:41:55 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Theresa Moylan Subject: Re: End-note locators Comments: To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Readers don't know how to use cross-references?! I'm going to have to look that one up. Are footnotes being mistaken for endnotes (I didn't follow it)? I think it is hard to find terms in footnotes only because I have gotten used to them not being indexed (something I wish publishers wouldn't do), and so it is the last place I look after checking the text twice. I would prefer footnotes to be indexed in italics or bold. As for endnotes, I don't think it really matters since when you see the locator you know it is in the back of the book and, therefore, an endnote. And the print size isn't the indexer's problem; the production editor has to worry about that one. Theresa (A reader hoping to become an indexer.) J.R. Sampson wrote: > Hello - > > My suggestion that end-notes should be referred to by page > numbers only seems to be unpopular. However, in defence, I would > suggest that in a world where apparently readers do not know how to > use cross-references (previous discussion in Index-L), there is a > case for keeping things simple. > > I find it hard to believe that it is significantly more difficult to find an > item on a page of end-notes than on a page of body text. It depends > on the size of print. > > In practice I would follow standards, but I wonder how much we > really know about what helps users. > > _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:37:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tzolelet@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Latin redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about Et ego in Acadia...nisi obesa canta(ver)it? That makes sense in Latin! Anne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 05:29:28 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ADLBolton@AOL.COM Subject: xywrite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone out there have experience with XYWrite, the word processing program? We've been using it here at the Press where I work for many years. However, almost everything we receive for publication comes in in some manifestation of Word and must be converted for editing and typesetting. I'd be interested in hearing any experienced XYWrite users' opinions on whether or not we should make the difficult changeover to Word (difficult because of the number of different kinds of publications we put out here). Thanks very much. April Bolton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:51:08 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: High-Tech Heretic Comments: cc: Nancy Mulvany , Hazel Bell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Bailey wrote: From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: End-note locators In-Reply-To: <382227D1.CF6D73D8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Readers don't know how to use cross-references?! I'm going to have to > look that one up. > There was a thread of discussion on this in July. > Are footnotes being mistaken for endnotes (I didn't follow it)? It seems to me that footnotes are a different matter from endnotes since there is also body text etc. on the page. There I would not dispute that more is needed than just a page number. I think perhaps my intervention in this discussion was to some extent ill-judged - I should not in any sense be saying my idea should be a standard, or guidance for newcomers to indexing. In practice we do not serve only the end-user. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:42:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blee811@AOL.COM Subject: Re: xywrite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/99 5:44:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ADLBolton@AOL.COM writes: << I'd be interested in hearing any experienced XYWrite users' opinions on whether or not we should make the difficult changeover to Word (difficult because of the number of different kinds of publications we put out here). >> Is it any more difficult than the constant conversions you have to do? I would guess too that even after converting all those Word files, and probably an occasional Word Perfect file, that you still have to do a lot of cleanup on the files. I surely understand the reluctance to give up XyWrite--the first word processing software I ever used and what a marvel it was at the time. I felt I could do anything with it. But Word can do so much more. I wouldn't hesitate to make the switch. And, any switch like this is going to be time-consuming, but you'll be making a changeover one day anyway, so why not start to make life a little easier? Bill Lee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:06:24 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I learned something about this program this morning that might be of interest given the preceding discussion. I've been using "DNS Preferred 3.52 for the Pentium III" quite happily and wondering whether to upgrade to version 4.0. Sales people at DNS told me 4.0 was definitely an upgrade for the Pentium III version. I got a tech support person who explained that 4.0 just incorporated the engine from the Pentium III version as well as the older engine for Pentium II (and lower). The enhancements in 4.0 were primarily to such things as Internet access and controlling the keyboard via voice. For simple dictation, which is the main use I have in indexing, 4.0 doesn't offer any real gains. Given the upgrade price of $99, I decided it wasn't worth it. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:18:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi Subject: Re: xywrite MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF27A9.62A11686" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF27A9.62A11686 Content-Type: text/plain The decision on using Xywrite cannot be judged from the frontend, I imagine, but only from the backend of your typesetting output. Because it is basically an ASCII-based word processing system, which works excellently with batch-processed type output, it was a great boon to me when I was in the publishing business. The easiest thing to do is just convert the Word output to ASCII. Or, tell your editors and indexers to submit discs in ASCII, not RTF. Not knowing the full configuration of the publishing output or whatever, changing a frontend type system is indeed a major undertaking that can have disastrous consequences if not fully planned in the entire throughput. Went through it twice. > ---------- > From: ADLBolton@AOL.COM > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Friday, November 5, 1999 3:29 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: xywrite > > Does anyone out there have experience with XYWrite, the word processing > program? We've been using it here at the Press where I work for many > years. > However, almost everything we receive for publication comes in in some > manifestation of Word and must be converted for editing and typesetting. > I'd > be interested in hearing any experienced XYWrite users' opinions on > whether > or not we should make the difficult changeover to Word (difficult because > of > the number of different kinds of publications we put out here). > > Thanks very much. > > April Bolton > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF27A9.62A11686 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: xywrite

The decision on = using Xywrite cannot be judged from the frontend, I imagine, but only = from the backend of your typesetting output.  Because it is = basically an ASCII-based word processing system, which works = excellently with batch-processed type output, it was a great boon to me = when I was in the publishing business.  The easiest thing to do is = just convert the Word output to ASCII.  Or, tell your editors and = indexers to submit discs in ASCII, not RTF.  Not knowing the full = configuration of the publishing output or whatever, changing a frontend = type system is indeed a major undertaking that can have disastrous = consequences if not fully planned in the entire throughput.  Went = through it twice. 

----------
From:   ADLBolton@AOL.COM
Reply To: =       Indexer's = Discussion Group
Sent:   Friday, November 5, 1999 3:29 AM
To:     = INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: =        xywrite

Does anyone out there have = experience with XYWrite, the word processing
program? We've been using it = here at the Press where I work for many years.
However, almost everything we = receive for publication comes in in some
manifestation of Word and must = be converted for editing and typesetting. I'd
be interested in hearing any = experienced XYWrite users' opinions on whether
or not we should make the = difficult changeover to Word (difficult because of
the number of different kinds = of publications we put out here).

Thanks very much.

April Bolton

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF27A9.62A11686-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: indexing Job MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi All, I was asked for a quote on the following project, but can not take on this project due to the timeframe. If you are interested in the project, email Ray Silverman at RSilver777@aol.com. I believe this is a Quark Express (Mac) project. Delivery of page proofs = November 8, 1999 Deadline for indexer = November 15, 1999 Number of Pages = 243 Book Title = Rise Above It: Spiritual Development through the Ten Commandments Email Address = RSilver777@aol.com Subject of Book= Spiritual Development Number of Authors = Multiple Authors or Edited --Ilana ***************************************************** Kingsley Indexing Services * http://www.indexpup.com Tel: +1-919-563-9947 * email: indexpup@indexpup.com ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:54:45 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: xywrite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd convert to Word, difficult as it may be. My husband was a dedicated XyWrite user at his newspaper several years ago, but Xywrite (and WordStar and bunch of other wordprocessing programs) is really out of date. Even if you hate Bill Gates, you really need to use his software if you are in any kind of publishing. Even my son, a computer scientist in embryo and a dedicated Linux user, has to use Word. Sorry Diana ADLBolton@AOL.COM wrote: > Does anyone out there have experience with XYWrite, the word processing > program? We've been using it here at the Press where I work for many years. > However, almost everything we receive for publication comes in in some > manifestation of Word and must be converted for editing and typesetting. I'd > be interested in hearing any experienced XYWrite users' opinions on whether > or not we should make the difficult changeover to Word (difficult because of > the number of different kinds of publications we put out here). > > Thanks very much. > > April Bolton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:32:36 -0800 Reply-To: tedne@w-link.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TN Subject: xywrite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know a thing about xywrite. But a very quick web search turned up a couple of links you may find useful. Ted http://www.acii.com/topic006.htm http://www.serve.com/ammaze/xylist/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:13:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stella: I suppose it's possible, but it's not the word used on their trademark Web page. The word comes from the Greek word "xeros" for dry, which might be the source of the confusion. Max -----Original Message----- From: Kathy "Stella" Buczynski To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) >Recently I had the opportunity to use this term in an index. I saw it >spelled differently in different instances. According to Webster's New World >Dictionary, the prefix is xero- not xeri-, could it be possible that Denver >trademarked the alternate spelling as they have used it for the same meaning? > Can xeroscaping be used without the TM designation? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:18:10 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Latin redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, my understanding has always been that Yogi said: "It ain't over 'til it's over." The other relevant expression is: "The opera ain't over 'til the fat lady sings." (Remarkable how many stereotypes and put-downs can be crammed into one sentence.) Both mean roughly the same thing. (Wouldn't Kate Smith be singing BEFORE the game anyway?) Latin and baseball do make an interesting combination. I keep expecting Pete Rose to appear on TV, on his knees, hands in supplication, shouting: "Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!" Actually, I don't really expect that. I would suggest the following emendation (shamelessly stealing some suggestions by others): etsi in Arcadia ego, obesa cantarit which would mean, roughly: Even if I hide in Arcadia, the fat lady will have sung, i.e., it will be over. In other words, I'm dead wherever I run to. But...... that shouldn't keep me out of the Hall of Fame. Nick Koenig >Well! That the book is about baseball is definitive about the second >clause in "Et in Arcadia Ego, Obese Cantarit. The reference is >undoubtedly to "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings", which I believe >is attributed to Yogi Berra and thought to refer to Kate Smith (a >weighty singer who often sang at baseball games, although where and why >at the *end* of games I do not know). So I would start with "I (Death) >too am in Arcadia, the fat lady [some form of the verb 'to sing']", and >leave it to the Latinists and poets to refine. > >Joel > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:32:44 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Roos Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/4/1999 8:04:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET writes: > Thanks to everyone who has replied. Consensus so far seems to be that the > second option (see below) is easier to read and hence easier for the > reader. I will also point out that it takes up less space. The discussion > isn't closed -- feel free to weigh in if you have additional or opposing > thoughts! > > first option: > > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15) > > second option: > > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) I would save more space still by dropping the parentheses and the spaces between note numbers. A unit is created by not spacing; nn alerts the reader that there's more than one note number following. 287-288nn3,5,7,9, 292n15 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:48:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: xywrite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit April Bolton: I've learned five word processors. The change from Word Perfect (CPM) to Microsoft Word was the easiest to make because there was so much extra Word could do. I've led conversion (card catalog to computer) projects in public libraries and I've successfully recommended changes in dedicated abstracting/indexing procedures. If you're running out of XYWrite indexers, I'm willing to learn my sixth word processor, but I suspect this is only a short - term option for you. I suggest you plan your conversion. From what I've read it is inevitable, but that doesn't mean you have to convert at a time when it will cost you the most. Examine your future projects, plans and personnel closely. If, for example, you have editors who will be retiring in two months, you may want to start changing immediately. If you've got editors who will be retiring in two years, you MIGHT be able to delay. The same goes for products - Do you have a series that is closing or beginning, for example? Do you have some staff willing and ready to make the change and others who are reluctant? Perhaps you can make the change first with one "trend setter" and have her teach everyone else. As I once told my library staffs, change is frightening, but once you make this change you will be very glad you did it. Max Dalrymple, MLS mdalry@sr66.com -----Original Message----- From: ADLBolton@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 4:40 AM Subject: xywrite >Does anyone out there have experience with XYWrite, the word processing >program? We've been using it here at the Press where I work for many years. >However, almost everything we receive for publication comes in in some >manifestation of Word and must be converted for editing and typesetting. I'd >be interested in hearing any experienced XYWrite users' opinions on whether >or not we should make the difficult changeover to Word (difficult because of >the number of different kinds of publications we put out here). > >Thanks very much. > >April Bolton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:00:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes In-Reply-To: <0.d2b84fb3.2554b50c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In a message dated 11/4/1999 8:04:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, >jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET writes: > >> Thanks to everyone who has replied. Consensus so far seems to be that the >> second option (see below) is easier to read and hence easier for the >> reader. I will also point out that it takes up less space. The discussion >> isn't closed -- feel free to weigh in if you have additional or opposing >> thoughts! >> >> first option: >> > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287(n3), 287-288(n5), 288(nn 7, 9), 292(n15) >> >> second option: >> > > James, John, 27, 56-59, 287-288(nn 3, 5, 7, 9), 292(n15) > > > >I would save more space still by dropping the parentheses and the spaces >between note numbers. A unit is created by not spacing; nn alerts the >reader that there's more than one note number following. > >287-288nn3,5,7,9, 292n15 I like the elimination of parentheses and I remember reading about a 'hair space' placed between the locator and 'n' which would sold the space problem. Naomi J. Naomi Linzer: Indexing Services POB 1341 459 Redway Drive Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** ^Ý ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:17:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tony Davies Subject: Re: xywrite In-Reply-To: <382319E5.E7A35A4E@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There is too an alternative to Word/Excell/Access/Powerpoint etc... and it's free! StarOffice comes from the world of open source computing (which also gave us Linux). It's an integrated desktop environment that reads and saves all Microsoft Office file types just fine, thank you. You can use it for everything - including as a Web browser and mail client - if you want. You can even make it look as though Windows has gone away, if you dislike Mr Gates enough. Sun Microsystems (UNIX machines and Java) picked up StarOffice, and you can download it at no cost from their web site. How much does Sun like Mr Gates? Not very much. But do you really want to try a 70 meg download? Sun will send StarOffice on a CD-ROM for $10 plus shipping and handling - a total of $16 when I got my copy. The CD-ROM has versions for Windows, Linux, OS/2 (I think), and a couple of flavors of Unix. No Mac version. Details at http://www.sun.com/staroffice I've been playing with it for a couple of weeks, mostly the word processing part, and I'm impressed. Compatibility with Word (including latest versions) is very good - not quite perfect, but no problems I couldn't live with. Be warned - StarOffice's look and feel is quite different from anything in the world of Windows. Perfectly OK and useable, but it takes a little time to get comfortable with it. However you can't beat the price. Tony Davies >Date sent: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:54:45 -0600 >Send reply to: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >From: quaker1 >Subject: Re: xywrite I'd convert to Word, difficult as it may be. My husband was a dedicated XyWrite > user > at his newspaper several years ago, but Xywrite (and WordStar and bunch of other > > wordprocessing programs) is really out of date. Even if you hate Bill Gates, > you > really need to use his software if you are in any kind of publishing. Even my > son, > a computer scientist in embryo and a dedicated Linux user, has to use Word. > Sorry > Diana > > ADLBolton@AOL.COM wrote: > > > Does anyone out there have experience with XYWrite, the word processing > > program? We've been using it here at the Press where I work for many years. > > However, almost everything we receive for publication comes in in some > > manifestation of Word and must be converted for editing and typesetting. I'd > > be interested in hearing any experienced XYWrite users' opinions on whether > > or not we should make the difficult changeover to Word (difficult because of > > the number of different kinds of publications we put out here). > > > > Thanks very much. > > > > April Bolton > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:34:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ellen Davenport Subject: Indexing a continuum MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello: I'm indexing a book on raisin production--it has chapters on growing the grapes, harvesting the mature raisin-grape, then drying and processing the raisin. The question I have is that at 2 points in this raisin-production continuum, the thing being discussed turns from one commodity into another, ie., for part of the book it's a grape (or grape berry), then it's a raisin grape, then it's a raisin. At each of the interfaces in this process, I'm having difficulty deciding on main entries. To compound the confusion, the book is written by multiple authors, so the person writing about grape growing is often using different terminology than the author of the chapter on raisin-grape harvesting. This is the way I've tried to solve the problem: I've set up 3 main headings: grape berries--for topics related to the development of the grapes; raisin grapes--for topics related to grape varieties grown specifically to become raisins and for discussions on the process between when the grape is fully mature, harvested, and being dried (I don't like this heading, but can't think of another way to handle this phase); and raisins--for topics related to raisin processing, handling, and storage pests. I've cross referenced from grape berries to raisin grapes and from raisin grapes to raisins. And, at the interfaces between these main headings (e.g., when grape berries/raisin grapes are on the vine and being harvested), I've double posted all entries. Can anyone suggest a cleaner way to do it? Ellen Davenport ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:48:29 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elspeth Pope Subject: help needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received a letter recently from Brother Brian Clearman, OSB of Mount Angel Abbey, asking for information about indexing and thesaurus construction. I do not know how to advise him so I am sending out his questions for all you experts. As he does not have access to e-mail, if you can help him, please respond to me and I will send any responses on to him. I have excerpted from his letter the questions he asked: "My interest is mostly in the area of databases and knowledge bases. Are there indexers in the printed directory not listed in that category online? The online version has five listings. Would it be possible to find out additional indexers for databases? Your directory does not have a thesaurus category unless that is part of the databases......A consultant in Illinois thought that an index could serve as a thesaurus if done according to thesaurus rules, while the indexer in New England thought that indexes and thesauri were largely separate....I am hoping to find someone that could do both together and at a lower cost." (he had evidently received a quote of $5,000 for doing an index). Elspeth Pope Ludgate@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:00:42 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "sctopping:First sctopping:Last" Subject: Re: Singing Fat Ladies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "It ain't over till the fat lady sings" refers to opera, not baseball, although Yogi Berra may very well have been the originator of that quote. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:35:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing a continuum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellen, It sounds very thought out to me. I couldn't think of a different way. As long as you cross-reference from one to the other with "see also's", then I think you'll be fine. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:14:09 -0500 Reply-To: shecrab@nospamconcentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: All the time. It's my job. Subject: The last word on Corpulent Singing Females MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ms. Topping is correct, the quote refers to opera, not baseball. In fact, the ORIGINAL quote is "The OPERA ain't over till the fat lady sings," and the exact origin of it is actually known--it also refers to BASKETBALL. This is from The Straight Dope, by Cecil Adams: (www.straightdope.com) ::QUOTE:: It was first used around 1976 in a column in the San Antonio News-Express by sportswriter Dan Cook. Cook does not recall the precise date or what the column was about. Cook, who is also a sportscaster for KENS-TV in San Antonio, repeated the line during a broadcast in April 1978. He was trying to buck up local basketball fans who were dejected because the San Antonio Spurs were down three games to one in the playoffs against the Washington Bullets. Bullets coach Dick Motta heard the broadcast and used the expression himself to caution fans against overconfidence after his team finished off the Spurs and took on Philadelphia. The phrase became the team's rallying cry as they went on to win the championship. From there it entered the common pot of the language. Most newsies aspire to nothing grander than a Pulitzer prize. But Cook can tell his grandkids he's in The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs. --CECIL ADAMS ::END QUOTE:: -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:42:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Dragon NatSpeak Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles, The information you got from tech support at Dragon is not the "whole" story and there are important distinctions to make between the Preferred and the Professional versions of Dragon, particularly with this 4.0 release. Preferred uses BestMatch III if it finds a processor capable of running it, i.e., a minimum of a Pentium II with processor speed at least 400, or an AMD K6 2 with CPU speed 400 or greater, and the required amount of RAM. With the above computer configuration and a minimum of 128 of RAM, Professional 4.0 will install BestMatch III PLUS - the PLUS being a very important distinction. The PLUS technology has, in end-user testing, delivered an initial 94% recognition right out of the box, while the same .wav file transcribed using Preferred produced only 91.5% recognition. The 2.5% increased initial recognition may not sound like much but when you realize that it means correcting 6 words per 100 rather than 8 or 9, that's a difference in speed and efficiency which translates into $$$. I've also noticed recognition accuracy improved much faster with 4.0 than it did with 3.52 on the same computer. The main difference seems to be in the handling of single words or short phrases, whereas previous versions needed longer phrases to give the best accuracy. Additionally, voice recognition specialists are confident users will achieve a 99+% recognition accuracy in about two months' use with Professional 4.0. I had the opportunity this week to really see the difference between 3.52 Preferred and 4.0 Professional on a customer's computer this week. The customer had been trying to use the Preferred for his podiatry practice and was getting more recognition errors than he should. As a trial, we put 4.0 Professional on his machine and his accuracy shot up to where he had only two errors on a page, so needless to say, he was impressed! In short, I think you would benefit greatly not only from the 3.52 to 4.0 upgrade but also from upgrading to the Professional version which allows voice macros, i.e., speaking a shorthand term and having NatSpeak expand the term for you, yet another efficiency advantage of Professional. Jeri Lee Voice Transcription "Don't Type -- Talk to Your Computer!" 17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste 104 Renton, Washington 98058-7013 (425) 254-1352 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 15:31:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Indexing a continuum In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991106071534.009fd8a0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ellen: What you've done does indeed sound well thought out, but you say you don't like the term "raisin grapes" as a main heading. Why not? Michael At 07:34 AM 11/6/99 -0800, Ellen Davenport wrote: > >I'm indexing a book on raisin production--it has chapters on growing the >grapes, harvesting the mature raisin-grape, then drying and processing the >raisin. > >The question I have is that at 2 points in this raisin-production >continuum, the thing being discussed turns from one commodity into another, >ie., for part of the book it's a grape (or grape berry), then it's a raisin >grape, then it's a raisin. At each of the interfaces in this process, I'm >having difficulty deciding on main entries. To compound the confusion, the >book is written by multiple authors, so the person writing about grape >growing is often using different terminology than the author of the chapter >on raisin-grape harvesting. > >This is the way I've tried to solve the problem: I've set up 3 main >headings: grape berries--for topics related to the development of the >grapes; raisin grapes--for topics related to grape varieties grown >specifically to become raisins and for discussions on the process between >when the grape is fully mature, harvested, and being dried (I don't like >this heading, but can't think of another way to handle this phase); and >raisins--for topics related to raisin processing, handling, and storage pests. > >I've cross referenced from grape berries to raisin grapes and from raisin >grapes to raisins. And, at the interfaces between these main headings >(e.g., when grape berries/raisin grapes are on the vine and being >harvested), I've double posted all entries. > >Can anyone suggest a cleaner way to do it? > >Ellen Davenport > Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:44:37 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: The last word on Corpulent Singing Females >Ms. Topping is correct, the quote refers to opera, not >baseball. In fact, the ORIGINAL quote is "The OPERA ain't >over till the fat lady sings," and the exact origin of it is >actually known--it also refers to BASKETBALL. > I'm hazy on the details, but the relevance to opera is this - many operas ended with a song sung by a soprano - and many sopranos were overweight women. So, I think it was intended for bored opera patrons who longed for the performance to be over - you had to wait till the "fat lady sings"! - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:59:03 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Dragon NatSpeak In-Reply-To: <199911061938.LAA29240@mail.eskimo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeri Lee, Thanks for the extensive input. I think there is a difference between the "Preferred" and the "Preferred for the Pentium III." I know my version does allow macros for example. More importantly, as I understand it, the version that was optimized for the Pentium III takes advantage of the new instruction set that includes voice recognition in the Pentium III chip. I know my accuracy rate right out of the box was closer to 96% and training took less than 5 minutes. So now my question is does the Preferred for the Pentium III install Best Match III Plus? Do you know? Charles Anderson Charles, The information you got from tech support at Dragon is not the "whole" story and there are important distinctions to make between the Preferred and the Professional versions of Dragon, particularly with this 4.0 release. Preferred uses BestMatch III if it finds a processor capable of running it, i.e., a minimum of a Pentium II with processor speed at least 400, or an AMD K6 2 with CPU speed 400 or greater, and the required amount of RAM. With the above computer configuration and a minimum of 128 of RAM, Professional 4.0 will install BestMatch III PLUS - the PLUS being a very important distinction. The PLUS technology has, in end-user testing, delivered an initial 94% recognition right out of the box, while the same .wav file transcribed using Preferred produced only 91.5% recognition. The 2.5% increased initial recognition may not sound like much but when you realize that it means correcting 6 words per 100 rather than 8 or 9, that's a difference in speed and efficiency which translates into $$$. I've also noticed recognition accuracy improved much faster with 4.0 than it did with 3.52 on the same computer. The main difference seems to be in the handling of single words or short phrases, whereas previous versions needed longer phrases to give the best accuracy. Additionally, voice recognition specialists are confident users will achieve a 99+% recognition accuracy in about two months' use with Professional 4.0. I had the opportunity this week to really see the difference between 3.52 Preferred and 4.0 Professional on a customer's computer this week. The customer had been trying to use the Preferred for his podiatry practice and was getting more recognition errors than he should. As a trial, we put 4.0 Professional on his machine and his accuracy shot up to where he had only two errors on a page, so needless to say, he was impressed! In short, I think you would benefit greatly not only from the 3.52 to 4.0 upgrade but also from upgrading to the Professional version which allows voice macros, i.e., speaking a shorthand term and having NatSpeak expand the term for you, yet another efficiency advantage of Professional. Jeri Lee Voice Transcription "Don't Type -- Talk to Your Computer!" 17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste 104 Renton, Washington 98058-7013 (425) 254-1352 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:00:15 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: appeal to collective wisdom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is any one aware of conventions regarding psychological case names in indexes? Example: Freud, Sigmund Emmy von N., 100 Of course I'll ask the editor before submitting, but I wondered how others have done this. I'm tempted to italicize the case name and put a note at the beginning of the index, although I suppose I could insert a note each time as in "Emmy von N. (case)." And what about inversions, which will lead to entries like "Anna O" (preferable I think to "O, Anna."! Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:42:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: The last word on Corpulent Singing Females MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit susanhernandez@JUNO.COM wrote: > > ... many sopranos were overweight women. So, what are they now? :) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:34:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM Subject: names again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear C. W. In the indexing of 30 years of a private school's quarterly newsletter, must I/should I enter _every_ name, even the mommies who drive a bunch of kids to school, or the kindergartner who wins awards with his art work? TIA John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 02:26:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: names again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:34:53 EST JAbbott916@AOL.COM writes: > Dear C. W. > In the indexing of 30 years of a private school's quarterly newsletter, must > I/should I enter _every_ name, even the mommies who drive a bunch of kids to > school, or the kindergartner who wins awards with his art work? > TIA John John, It is my humble opinion that you must index every name of every individual who has been mentioned in a substantive manner. The examples you give are both substantive. Just remember, who is going to buy the cumulative index to the school's newsletter? I'll bet it is those same mommies who drove their kids to school 20 years ago who are tomorrow's buyers of your index. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:01:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara Roos wrote: > I would save more space still by dropping the parentheses and the spaces > between note numbers. A unit is created by not spacing; nn alerts the > reader that there's more than one note number following. > > 287-288nn3,5,7,9, 292n15 When note numbers are singular on the page, I agree that parentheses are not really necessary, but I think they are helpful when notes are multiple on a page or page range. I find 287-288nn3,5,7,9 to be a little confusing, since the commas would usually indicate the end of that locator. The parentheses serve to group the multiple notes together. Therefore, if there are multiple notes on a page/page range, I would use parentheses for all notes in the name of consistency. I also agree that the space after the nn isn't necessary in any case. However, the example I gave uses the format (parentheses and a space after nn) required by more than one of my publishers. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:28:33 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Relationship between indexes and thesauri [Was: "help needed"] In-Reply-To: <382469EB.5BA5DF2F@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <382469EB.5BA5DF2F@earthlink.net>, on Sat, 6 Nov 1999 at 09:48:29, Elspeth Pope writes >A >consultant in Illinois thought that an index could serve as a thesaurus >if done according to thesaurus rules, while the indexer in New England >thought that indexes and thesauri were largely separate. A lot depends on how the index is to be constructed and presented. As you are talking about an index to a database, it may be that you are not actually going to construct an "index" at all in the conventional ("back of the book") sense, but assign indexing terms (chosen from a thesaurus) to individual records in the database. These can then be combined at the time of searching by Boolean or similar combinations, if the software allows this. In this case the thesaurus is the source of the terms and can help both indexers and searchers in choosing appropriate terms or groups of terms. Some systems can record against each term the number of times it has been used in the database, but the actual locators (record reference numbers in a database) are not normally held in the thesaurus itself. These are usually held in a separate index file, which may be hidden, forming part of the database structure. An index cannot normally be "done according to thesaurus rules" because an index usually has some degree of pre-coordination, combining different concepts in headings and subheadings to express compound ideas. Thesaurus rules normally keep distinct concepts separate, in different facets. (See my reply to the message from Susan Weiss on this list on 4th November). An existing index can be a useful source of terms for constructing a thesaurus, but I would not try to combine them. However, it all depends on the exact nature of the material and system, so anything may be possible ... I have changed your subject heading for this thread into something that I hope indexers will recognise as more useful than "help needed" :-) Regards Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 (0)20 8372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex EN2 7BQ, UK. Fax: +44 (0)20 8372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk ---------------- ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:10:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: It's that time of year again... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's time to talk about year-end gifts again. I remember there was a wide range of opinions last time (esp. concerning holidays, religious overtones, etc.). Point being, I want to express to my new-found clients (after my first full year in the biz) that I appreciate their business. Has anyone tried gift certificates to online merchants as a gift? Amazon.com comes to mind. Or is that too...I don't know...I mean, there is an exact dollar value to the gift, so perhaps it defines their worth to me too precisely? Anyway, thoughts and opinions welcome./Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents Discussion List ---> http://www.onelist.com/community/indexstudents ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:34:16 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SFrankmail@AOL.COM Subject: Re: It's that time of year again... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Historically, I have sent a card with a personalized note to clients who have given me a "first" project. Oftentimes, there are a few people involved in each project, so I send them all cards. For long-time clients who give me at least one project (and usually more), I send a gift that can be shared with any staff, especially staff I don't know directly. I have send boxes of fruit, or cookies, or a plant. I'll probably do the same thing this year. I hope this helps. Sandi Frank ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Indexing a continuum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellen, Just a thought - Is your problem stemming from the fact that the *whole book* is about grapes/raisins? In others words, are you trying to make entries that compromise the topic of the entire book? Perhaps a lot of your subs need to be turned into main entries and not listed at all under the headings you give? It sounds like you really do need to use those headings, but this might be another slant on thinking about the problem. Since "raisin grapes" is a discussion of types of grapes, I would think it should be listed as "grapes, raisin" and cross referenced from "raisin grapes." Or, at least, I would be thinking "grapes for making raisins" and look under grapes. Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ellen Davenport To: Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 10:34 AM Subject: Indexing a continuum > Hello: > > I'm indexing a book on raisin production--it has chapters on growing the > grapes, harvesting the mature raisin-grape, then drying and processing the > raisin. > > The question I have is that at 2 points in this raisin-production > continuum, the thing being discussed turns from one commodity into another, > ie., for part of the book it's a grape (or grape berry), then it's a raisin > grape, then it's a raisin. At each of the interfaces in this process, I'm > having difficulty deciding on main entries. To compound the confusion, the > book is written by multiple authors, so the person writing about grape > growing is often using different terminology than the author of the chapter > on raisin-grape harvesting. > > This is the way I've tried to solve the problem: I've set up 3 main > headings: grape berries--for topics related to the development of the > grapes; raisin grapes--for topics related to grape varieties grown > specifically to become raisins and for discussions on the process between > when the grape is fully mature, harvested, and being dried (I don't like > this heading, but can't think of another way to handle this phase); and > raisins--for topics related to raisin processing, handling, and storage pests. > > I've cross referenced from grape berries to raisin grapes and from raisin > grapes to raisins. And, at the interfaces between these main headings > (e.g., when grape berries/raisin grapes are on the vine and being > harvested), I've double posted all entries. > > Can anyone suggest a cleaner way to do it? > > Ellen Davenport ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 01:27:41 -0800 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: locator formatting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I am indexing a 5th grade history text and am new to indexing textbooks. I want to note where maps, photographs, figures appear on the pages. No problem if the discussion and text are on the same page, or if they are on separate pages. However, when the discussion runs say: 24-25 and the photo, map, or figure is on page 24 what do I do? 24m-25 doesn't look right 24-25m not true 24-25, 24m perhaps? Thanks in advance. Kathy P. Kathleen Paparchontis K & D, Associates 916-344-3846 916-344-9564 (fax) kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:08:36 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Re: It's that time of year again... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Dan, Last year I gave gifts to some of my clients (who gave me more than one project) and I sent boxes of Petits Fours from Hale Groves and they were well appreciated. This year I plan to do the same thing. I am considering Hale Groves, Harry and David, and Swiss Colony products. I do not like to give gift certificates to my clients because it is in the form of money. Cakes/cookies/fruit baskets are edible products and they do not look bad for clients. I reserve gift certificates for my relatives and friends only. That is my personl opinion about this issue. MANJIT K. SAHAI Potomac Falls, VA >From: Dan Connolly >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: It's that time of year again... >Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:10:27 -0500 > >It's time to talk about year-end gifts again. I remember there was a wide >range of opinions last time (esp. concerning holidays, religious overtones, >etc.). Point being, I want to express to my new-found clients (after my >first full year in the biz) that I appreciate their business. > >Has anyone tried gift certificates to online merchants as a gift? >Amazon.com >comes to mind. Or is that too...I don't know...I mean, there is an exact >dollar value to the gift, so perhaps it defines their worth to me too >precisely? Anyway, thoughts and opinions welcome./Dan > > >~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com >Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com >Indexstudents Discussion List ---> >http://www.onelist.com/community/indexstudents ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:39:04 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon Jermey Subject: AusSI Newsletter for November on Web Comments: To: "aliaINDEXERS@alianet. au" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Australian Society of Indexers Newsletter for November is now available on the Web at http://www.aussi.org/anl/9910nov Jonathan Jermey AusSI Webmaster ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:09:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Working with PDF files MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some readers expressed an interest in reading an article I wrote for the Australian Society of Indexers Newsletter on working with PDF files. It is now available on http://www.aussi.org/anl/9910nov/printing_acrobat_pdf_files.htm Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au