Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9908D"
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:38:49 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Keith McQuay <keithm@SUPERAJE.COM>
Subject: Master/Sub Documents in Word
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Does anyone know if any changes whatsoever occur in Word subdocuments when
you add them to a master document?
I receive a book in dribs and drabs, each chapter in a separate file, and I
end up with 10 or 50 little indexes that I have to keep track of. Creating
a master document is the way to go but not if it is going to mess up the
files for my client. If this does mess up the files I would have to make a
set of separate working copies and compile the master index from that.
THANKS
Keith McQuay
Foreword Indexing Services
613-278-0426
http://Foreword.pair.com
keithm@superaje.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:09:44 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Sandi Schroeder <sanindex@XSITE.NET>
Subject: Re: Article on Freelancers
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Thanks for the article. I will check them out.
BTW, do you have any interest in working on a committee for member benefits.
We now have a 10% deduction from University of Chicago classes. Other
institutions need to be contacted to see if we can get them to extend the
same benefit. I have contacts and addresses.
I also have information on dental and vision insurance, just no time to
contact these places.
Sandi schroeder
-----Original Message-----
From: Psvenndex@AOL.COM <Psvenndex@AOL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 1:15 PM
Subject: Article on Freelancers
>Good Afternoon,
>Our paper's business page (The Cincinnati Enquirer, August 16, 1999) ran an
>article from the NY Times. The article "Generation of free-lancers
covered"
>by Abby Ellin mentioned 2 companies that offer insurance and other benefit
>packages, collection services, etc. for free-lancers. They are Freeagent.
>com and Aquent. I merely read the article and have no other knowledge
about
>the companies.
>Pamela Venneman
>Lighthouse Indexing Services
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:20:16 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: is it me or the list?
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Has list traffic essentially disappeared over the weekend? Or have I
somehow dropped off the list? I'm not getting any messages, and I'm
wondering why. Please reply to me privately, so I can determine whether
the problem is with the list, or whether I need to check with my ISP.
Thanks,
Kara Pekar
jkpekar@crosslink.net
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:52:02 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: is it me or the list?
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There's been no mail. Most people are probably up to their eyeballs in work ...
Back to work,
Cynthia
At 03:20 PM 8/22/99 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote:
>Has list traffic essentially disappeared over the weekend? Or have I
>somehow dropped off the list? I'm not getting any messages, and I'm
>wondering why. Please reply to me privately, so I can determine whether
>the problem is with the list, or whether I need to check with my ISP.
>Thanks,
>
>Kara Pekar
>jkpekar@crosslink.net
>
>
*****************************************
Cynthia D. Bertelsen
Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services
Specialities: Food History, Nutrition, Cookbooks, Gastronomy
cbertel@usit.net
Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/
Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and
churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a
kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the
fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel
Robertson---
******************************************
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:02:33 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: is it me or the list?
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Thanks, Cynthia!
Kara
----------
> From: Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Re: is it me or the list?
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 3:52 PM
>
> There's been no mail. Most people are probably up to their eyeballs in
work ...
>
> Back to work,
>
> Cynthia
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:18:28 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: S Sweeney <ssweeney@RURALTEL.NET>
Subject: which word is correct?
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Dear Index-L:
I am indexing a book on Aztec human sacrifice. Two terms are used to
designate "debt payments," as in using human sacrifice to repay debts to
the gods. One term is "nextlaoalli" and the other is "nextlahualtin."
Are both correct or is this an error? If an error, which is correct?
I plan to query the editor tomorrow but hoped to get some insight before
doing so.
Many thanks for any help,
Sharon Sweeney
ssweeney@ruraltel.net
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:22:18 -0600
Reply-To: gxstacey@telusplanet.net
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: George Stacey <gxstacey@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Master/Sub Documents in Word
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Hi, Keith:
My goodness, what is it you have to do? Do YOU have to
create the book for the client and then index it?
The process your query describes frightens a nascent indexer
like myself, who has the idea that you can't really index
anything BUT a whole document. A "master document" isn't
just the way to go, it's the ONLY way to go. You could have
twenty or so different indexes, one for each chapter, but
why? It sounds as if this publisher is trying to make his
indexer into a full-scale production department. Knowing
nothing further about this, I'd have to recommend that you
either renegotiate this job or drop it like the proverbial
hot potato.
Or are you doing desktop publishing/web page design as well?
Regards,
George Stacey
Keith McQuay wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if any changes whatsoever occur in Word subdocuments when
> you add them to a master document?
>
> I receive a book in dribs and drabs, each chapter in a separate file, and I
> end up with 10 or 50 little indexes that I have to keep track of. Creating
> a master document is the way to go but not if it is going to mess up the
> files for my client. If this does mess up the files I would have to make a
> set of separate working copies and compile the master index from that.
>
> THANKS
>
> Keith McQuay
> Foreword Indexing Services
> 613-278-0426
> http://Foreword.pair.com
> keithm@superaje.com
--
George Stacey
4250 Fortieth Ave. NW
Calgary Alberta Canada
T3A 0X1
(403) 288-9213
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:48:44 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "David M. Brown" <dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM>
Organization: Brown Inc.
Subject: Re: Master/Sub Documents in Word
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Keith McQuay wrote:
>
> I receive a book in dribs and drabs, each chapter in a separate file, and I
> end up with 10 or 50 little indexes that I have to keep track of. Creating
> a master document is the way to go but not if it is going to mess up the
> files for my client. If this does mess up the files I would have to make a
> set of separate working copies and compile the master index from that.
A master document is definitely *not* the way to go! This feature has ranged between flakey and useless since it first appeared It is widely disparaged among tech writers who'd really *like* to be able to use it.
First, index the "dribs and drabs" at your convenience. You can build mini-indexes in the individual files as often as you like to check your work in progress.
When you're ready to merge the mini-indexes, *don't* use the Master Document feature.
Instead, create a "container" document that contains a TOC field (if appropriate), an RD field for each included document (including any front matter and back matter), and an INDEX field. Use the Insert > Field command directly, and make sure they're in the correct order!
Put each item in a separate section, and set up the sections to start on odd-numbered pages and to continue page numbering from the previous section. (Switching back and forth between Normal and PageLayout views makes it easier to tell when it's right.) Just remember to turn off field codes and hidden text when you check page numbering, and especially when you build the index!
When it's all set up, make sure field codes and hidden text are *not* visible, then select the entire document and update fields.
It's not elegant, but it works perfectly. After a few trial runs, it may even seem like second nature. :)
Hope this helps...
--David
=============================
David M. Brown - Brown Inc.
dmbrown@brown-inc.com
=============================
A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/
HTML Indexer 3.1, still the easiest way to create and maintain
back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents.
Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:25:37 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: address change
Comments: To: asi-l@onelist.com, bioindexers@onelist.com
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I have changed my e-mail address. The new address is: anntrue@mindspring.com
Thanks,
Ann Truesdale
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:34:33 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: DStaub11@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Germany and unification
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<< OK, now I have my dates striaght, and it looks to me as though the
preference is to call the 1871 unifcation just that, and the recent
reunification just that. So, unless I hear otherwise from historians on
the list I will probably use "Unification" and "Reunification." >>
And I would index the Weimar Republic under Weimar Republic.
Do Mi Stauber, just now back from a long vacation. Hi everybody!
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:15:05 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: caledoniaskye@JUNO.COM
Subject: Re: is it me or the list?
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Hi
It's been a slow weekend for list traffic. Hang in there.
Judith
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:52:18 -0400
Reply-To: pobe@worldnet.att.net
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Stephen Pober <pobe@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Missing author names, variations on a theme
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Dear all,
I attempted to send the following last week. I do not believe it was
received as no copy was transmitted to myself:
In editing and indexing a bibliography of American geological literature, I
discovered the following. This bibliography includes hundreds of items that
appeared in 19th century foreign journals (mostly French and German), and
were abstracted by American journals. Most, if not all, of the authors
abstracted are cited by surname and first initial. The first initial is
invariably "M." I believe this stand for "monsieur." Using the LOC name
authority files (I do not have access to RLIN), and the Dictionary of
Scientific Biography, I have been able to identify a number of authors.
None of them had first names beginning with "M."
However, a number of authors never wrote a book, or were not famous enough
to be included in DSB.
My question is twofold:
(1) Is there any source that will give me information on minor 19th
scientists which includes a list of their journal articles? The abstracted
articles are identified by journal name only, so I cannot check the
originals (without great difficulty).
(2) If I am unable to determine an author's first name how do I handle
indexing them? Do I include the "M," but add a note explaining the problem.
Or do I leave out the initial altogether?
Has anyone experienced this problem?
Hopefully,
Stephen E. Pober
Pober Publishing
Staten Island, NY 10301
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:58:24 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Brian Noggle <bnoggle@DRA.COM>
Subject: Re: Master/Sub Documents in Word
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I would avoid the master document at all costs.
You can create an index that pulls index entry (XE) fields from multiple
documents.
To do so:
1. Mark your index entries in the individual chapter files.
2. Create a new document for your index.
3. Insert a Reference Document field (RD) for each chapter that you have
indexed. This field takes the path and file name of your chapters as a
parameter.
4. After you have inserted all the RD fields you need, insert the index
normally. Word 97 goes through and generates the index as though all the
chapters were in one document.
Brian J. Noggle
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith McQuay [mailto:keithm@SUPERAJE.COM]
> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 10:39 AM
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Master/Sub Documents in Word
>
>
> Does anyone know if any changes whatsoever occur in Word
> subdocuments when
> you add them to a master document?
>
> I receive a book in dribs and drabs, each chapter in a
> separate file, and I
> end up with 10 or 50 little indexes that I have to keep track
> of. Creating
> a master document is the way to go but not if it is going to
> mess up the
> files for my client. If this does mess up the files I would
> have to make a
> set of separate working copies and compile the master index from that.
>
> THANKS
>
> Keith McQuay
> Foreword Indexing Services
> 613-278-0426
> http://Foreword.pair.com
> keithm@superaje.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:28:03 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Janmucc@AOL.COM
Subject: Per-entry project-How to calculate
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I have another question for the group - isn't it great to be a newbie!!!
I have just completed a project that pays by per-entry rate. I know that the
following would be considered 3 entries:
Roger Williams Park
Wildview Trail
Hidden Trail
but if the entry only has 1 sub and is written as:
Roger Williams Park, Wildview Trail
Shouldn't this be considered 2 entries?
I am ready to invoice and need help.
Thanks to everyone,
Jan Mucciarone
Elite Indexing Services
janmucc@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:33:07 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Patricia H. Gross" <phgross@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Per-entry project-How to calculate
In-Reply-To: <83077287.24f2a663@aol.com>
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Jan Mucciarone wrote:
>I have just completed a project that pays by per-entry rate. I know that the
>following would be considered 3 entries:
> Roger Williams Park
> Wildview Trail
> Hidden Trail
>
>but if the entry only has 1 sub and is written as:
> Roger Williams Park, Wildview Trail
>
>Shouldn't this be considered 2 entries?
>
It's been a long time since I had to do something on a per entry basis, but
I would think that if you are dealing with something that just has one
locator, it has to be considered one entry--in the second example you give,
I assume that there is one particular page that discusses the Wildview
trail in the Roger Williams Park. One entry, not two. Unless of course
there is a separate page being referred to that is more generically about
the Park, as would happen this way:
Roger Williams Park, 17
Wildview Trail, 24
Similarly, I would have thought that the first example you give would count
as three entries only if there is a locator for Roger Williams Park in
addition to those for the two subentries. Otherwise in your first example,
I see only two entries.
I have a different question, though. If the either of these is discussed on
several separate pages, do the locators added for those count as separate
entries? In that case, there would be five entries for this example
Roger Williams Park, 17, 22
Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37
The only time I had to bill by the entry was long enough ago that the only
calculation I could make automatically was the number of lines in the word
processing program I was using for the index, and I didn't think about the
question of the number of locators. I am curious how other people handle
this.
Patricia Gross
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:52:51 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Per-entry project -- Careful!
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All,
Per entry payment and billing is tricky. The sticking point is how entires
with a number of page locators are figured. This should be clarified at the
outset, so that you know what's what before you accept the job, and are not
later disappointed in the pay rate.
In my experience, many places that want to pay per entry also want to pay for
a multiple-page-number entry as one entry ONLY. This, to me, is
unacceptable, and it is one reason why I dislike, and by and large, won't
work for per entry rates. To me, an entry is a place where you found the
information. Of course, if your client doesn't see it that way, it's not
"cool" to argue with your client, so then you have to decide whether you'll
work that way or not. At the outset, it is not a big issue -- I can
understand that a beginning indexer needs and wants the experience and the
client base. After you have more clients, and can be a bit choosier, you
might want to think twice about accepting this type of pay rate. Unless the
per-entry payment is sufficiently high.
However, this is every person's choice, and the rate per entry also has to
figure into your decisions. Just be careful to clarify this aspect of
per-entry payment.
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:12:17 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM
Subject: Re: Per-entry project-How to calculate
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:28:03 EDT Janmucc@AOL.COM writes:
>I have another question for the group - isn't it great to be a
>newbie!!!
>
>I have just completed a project that pays by per-entry rate. I know
>that the
>following would be considered 3 entries:
> Roger Williams Park
> Wildview Trail
> Hidden Trail
>
I would consider this to be 2 entries - there are only two
locators involved. Unless either trail, or the Park in general appear
again, I would count this as two.
>but if the entry only has 1 sub and is written as:
> Roger Williams Park, Wildview Trail
>
>Shouldn't this be considered 2 entries?
>
And, in the same vein, this would be one entry - a single
mention on one page. Unless the Trail is discussed without the Park
mentioned, you are only providing one entry here. It would entail two
entries if you also have an entry for "Wildview Trail (Roger Williams
Park)"
Does your software count entries for you? If it does, you can use
that feature to arrive at your final count.
- Susan
***************************************
Susan Danzi Hernandez
BookEnd Indexing
susanhernandez@juno.com
(316) 789-0576 (Kansas)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:24:10 PDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Per-entry project-How to calculate
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Jan,
Just a couple of weeks back, I completed my first project which was based on
per entry rate. This is the first time in my 2 years of indexing business
that I have dealt with per entry billing system and needless to say, I
really *dislike* this method.
I was told by the editor that they pay by per *line* method, not by locator
method. So if the main head has 4 locators and no sub, it will be considered
just 1 line. To be honest, it is not fair in my opinion. Though for this
particular project, my per page rate turned out to be $4.50, which is not
bad, but even then I do not like this method.
In your example, if you move the single sub to join with the main, it would
be considered just 1 line (at least acc. to the editor I work for). Hope
this helps.
Happy indexing!
MANJIT K. SAHAI
Sterling, VA
>From: Janmucc@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>Subject: Per-entry project-How to calculate
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:28:03 EDT
>
>I have another question for the group - isn't it great to be a newbie!!!
>
>I have just completed a project that pays by per-entry rate. I know that
>the
>following would be considered 3 entries:
> Roger Williams Park
> Wildview Trail
> Hidden Trail
>
>but if the entry only has 1 sub and is written as:
> Roger Williams Park, Wildview Trail
>
>Shouldn't this be considered 2 entries?
>
>I am ready to invoice and need help.
>
>Thanks to everyone,
>Jan Mucciarone
>Elite Indexing Services
>janmucc@aol.com
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:33:30 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: Per-entry project-How to calculate
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-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia H. Gross <phgross@EROLS.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Per-entry project-How to calculate
>
>
>Roger Williams Park, 17, 22
> Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37
>
The entries above would be calculated as being two entries, not five. You
don't add up the page locators in order to come up with the number of
entries but instead count up the main and/or subentries for the total.
Best,
Sylvia Coates
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:38:26 PDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Raising rates and losing clients
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi everyone,
I have been indexing for the last 2 years and I have not raised my rates
yet.I have few questions before I start thinking about raising my rates. So
here they are......
1....how often you guys (all those experienced indexers)raise the rates? Is
it every year or every other year?
2....when you raise rates, *how many* clients you lose? I want to make
myself mentally ready and I am already very nervous about losing my favorite
clients.
3....how editors react towards new rates? If they do not accept new rates,
do they change their mind after few months and start offering you projects
again?
4....what do you do when you desperately want to retain a client, but he/she
is not willing to accept your new rate? Do you make any exceptions for your
favorite clients?
5....when you lose clients, do you find it difficult to do marketing with
*new rates* you have decided for yourself?
Any helpful suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in
advance.
MANJIT K. SAHAI
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:40:55 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: Per-entry project -- Careful!
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I agree with Janet's warnings regarding per-entry payment. The only company
I work for on this basis publishes travel guides which are easy,
interesting, and for which I made a very handsome hourly wage.
You must always consider what your hourly wage is when deciding on whether
this kind of work is worth it to you or not.
There is a medical publishing company out there which insists on per-entry
payment and due to the payment rate they offer and the kind of text being
indexed it isn't worth it to me to work for them. Again, you have to
calculate your hourly wage in order to make a viable decision regarding
offered payments.
You can occasionally be very surprised to discover how much (happy face
here) or how little (sad face here) you are really making.
Best,
Sylvia Coates
-----Original Message-----
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM <JPerlman@AOL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Per-entry project -- Careful!
>All,
>
>Per entry payment and billing is tricky. The sticking point is how entires
>with a number of page locators are figured. This should be clarified at
the
>outset, so that you know what's what before you accept the job, and are not
>later disappointed in the pay rate.
>
>In my experience, many places that want to pay per entry also want to pay
for
>a multiple-page-number entry as one entry ONLY. This, to me, is
>unacceptable, and it is one reason why I dislike, and by and large, won't
>work for per entry rates. To me, an entry is a place where you found the
>information. Of course, if your client doesn't see it that way, it's not
>"cool" to argue with your client, so then you have to decide whether you'll
>work that way or not. At the outset, it is not a big issue -- I can
>understand that a beginning indexer needs and wants the experience and the
>client base. After you have more clients, and can be a bit choosier, you
>might want to think twice about accepting this type of pay rate. Unless
the
>per-entry payment is sufficiently high.
>
>However, this is every person's choice, and the rate per entry also has to
>figure into your decisions. Just be careful to clarify this aspect of
>per-entry payment.
>
>Janet Perlman
>SOUTHWEST INDEXING
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:46:30 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Jeanne Lund <LUNDPJ@AOL.COM>
Subject: Tips
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I am considering taking the appropriate courses on indexing and hopefully
thereafter becoming a freelancer. Presently, I am a genealogist, so used to
paying meticulous detail to things, and that is my subject area expertise. I
would welcome any tips and advice from those of you out there doing this now
- in particular:
1) Are there any courses in particular you would recommend?
2) What is the current going rate for indexing? (I realise this may vary)
3) Is it better to have a specialty in something - as in my genealogy - or
does it not really matter?
4) Is it relatively easy to get work, and what is the best way to do this?
5) Any other tips?!
Thank you so much.
J Lund
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:09:11 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Raising rates and losing clients
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To Manjit and all others:
You have some options.
1. You raise your rates and lose a few clients.
2. You raise your rates and lose no one.
The truth is somewhere in between. I lost a couple of them, but I
used the new rate for all new clients (since they would not know about
the raise).
I only keep lower rates for clients who are bringing in a volume of
work or work that is monetarily advantageous. Usually, for that client
I mention that the rates will eventually go up. Therefore, when the
raise occurs, the client is not surprised nor taken off guard.
I look at this way. You're a professional; act like one, and you
will be treated like one.
Rob
--
Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
6482 Lloyd Avenue
Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445
314.781.4731 (voice/fax)
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:08:36 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Raising rates and losing clients
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Manjit,
These are good questions you are asking. Raising rates is a touchy subject,
and probably isn't something many of us do often enough.
My experience? I have dropped a client or 2 who would not go along with a
rate increase. I have also backed down in order to keep a client I enjoyed
working with.
That said, I can tell you that raising rates is not an annual affair with me,
nor is it a scheduled event. I do it on a situational basis, almost client
by client. Those clients who I feel I am well paid by (in my own opionion)
I let alone for a while. Those who are at the bottom of the pay scale I try
to move up a bit after a while. As the famous saying goes ....... "it
depends".
Most of my clients mention a price when they offer me a job, or negotiate a
price with me on the basis of the complexity of a job. Not all clients have
one fixed rate for an indexer. Some projects, like a journal index, can be
on a flat fee contract basis for a year, and that permits an easier way to
have an increase, because it can be a fixed dollar amount, and people know
ahead of time what the increase comes to, dollar-wise, and don't seem to get
as nervous. This seems to be well accepted. I prefer to increase it every 2
years, in that case.
In general, I prefer to make up my mind ahead of time that I am going to try,
in these individual job negotiations, to increase my rate, and then try to do
that with each job -- rather than make a grand announcement across the board
to all clients that my rates are now increasing. It permits me to gracefully
decide what to do with each client, without a "major event" or crisis
decision happening in front of the client.
One thing I do about every 2 years is increase what I call my "base rate" --
the figure I give, off the top of my head, when a new client or prospective
clients asks "what are my rates". Then the answer is "My usual rates are
between $x.xx and $y.yy per page, but that can depend on .............
(whatever)." This figure has to go up periodically, about every 2 years.
And that is not to say that I will not go lower (if the material is simple
enough to make a good per hour rate on the lower per page rate -- reference
previous discussions about working at $2 and $2.50 per page! -- <no flames
please>)
So ... think carefully about how you want to implement this raise, and be
careful not to put yourself in the position of publicly having to back down,
or of losing too many clients. I prefer to finesse the situation a bit,
feeling it out, and seeing where I can do better on a case by case basis.
Please don't misunderstand me. We all have to raise our rates periodically.
But how we do it should, IMHO, be well thought out. Unless we are willing to
risk either losing quite a few clients, or retrenching and accepting our old
rate. The old saying is so true ... "act in haste, repent in leisure."
Hope this helps. I am very interested in hearing from others what their
experience is. Maybe I'm too conservative. The above is what I've been
doing til now. I can change that too! ;-)
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:19:10 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Raising rates and losing clients
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Re: << I only keep lower rates for clients who are bringing in a volume
of work or work that is monetarily advantageous. Usually, for that client I
mention that the rates will eventually go up. ... [W]hen the raise occurs,
the client is not surprised nor taken off guard. >>
I think Rob put it well. Good point.
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:16:59 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <racric@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Per-entry rates and raising rates
In-Reply-To: <001901beed4a$913b54a0$35b2accf@indiana>
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Sylvia wrote,
>>Roger Williams Park, 17, 22
>> Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37
>The entries above would be calculated as being two entries, not five. You
>don't add up the page locators in order to come up with the number of
>entries but instead count up the main and/or subentries for the total.
I respectfully disagree. If the that is only 2 entries, then I've taken the
time to find and enter Wildview Trail 3 separate times, but only get paid
for doing it once? If that is the case then I would never in a billion
years agree to that job.
Whenever I've worked per entry (for only one client and I don't like it
either), I would always bill that as 5 entries. I bill per page locator or
page range, and per xref. If I double post, I count each of those as an
entry.
RW Park, 17, 22
Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37
Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37. See also RW Park
That is 9 entries. I have never been disagreed with on that by my client,
and it was btw worked out beforehand.
Manjit,
I don't raise my rates per se, though about a year ago I decided not to
take jobs that pay below a certain amount (my bottom line is whatever
translates to my minimum hourly rate). I either agree to take what the
client is offering, or I counter with another amount which they can either
take or not. I'd say about 8 times out of 10 my counter offer is accepted.
Rae
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Indexing, editing, proofreading
http://homepages.together.net/~racric
racric ICQ 31476947
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:44:15 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: Per-entry rates and raising rates
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Dear Rachel,
I agree that it seems unfair, but I've never known of a publisher who would
count those entries as five and not two. Good for you if you have managed to
get an agreement from a publisher to count them as five. I don't think that
is typical.
I also agree that this is exactly the reason why I only have one client (the
travel guide one) for which I will work on a per entry basis (I often turn
down these kind of clients when they call me or renegotiate for a per page
entry). For that particular client, with the type of text to be indexed, it
pays for me to work on per entry basis. In the more usual per entry pay
situation I think that an indexer is probably working too hard for too
little money.
Best,
Sylvia Coates
-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel Rice <racric@TOGETHER.NET>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 5:37 PM
Subject: Per-entry rates and raising rates
>Sylvia wrote,
>
>>>Roger Williams Park, 17, 22
>>> Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37
>
>>The entries above would be calculated as being two entries, not five. You
>>don't add up the page locators in order to come up with the number of
>>entries but instead count up the main and/or subentries for the total.
>
>I respectfully disagree. If the that is only 2 entries, then I've taken the
>time to find and enter Wildview Trail 3 separate times, but only get paid
>for doing it once? If that is the case then I would never in a billion
>years agree to that job.
>
>Whenever I've worked per entry (for only one client and I don't like it
>either), I would always bill that as 5 entries. I bill per page locator or
>page range, and per xref. If I double post, I count each of those as an
>entry.
>
>RW Park, 17, 22
> Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37
>
>Wildview Trail, 24, 28, 37. See also RW Park
>
>That is 9 entries. I have never been disagreed with on that by my client,
>and it was btw worked out beforehand.
>
>
>Manjit,
>
>I don't raise my rates per se, though about a year ago I decided not to
>take jobs that pay below a certain amount (my bottom line is whatever
>translates to my minimum hourly rate). I either agree to take what the
>client is offering, or I counter with another amount which they can either
>take or not. I'd say about 8 times out of 10 my counter offer is accepted.
>
>Rae
>
> Rachel Rice
> Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
> Indexing, editing, proofreading
> http://homepages.together.net/~racric
> racric ICQ 31476947
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:58:05 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Wording of index entries
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BEED67.23D182A0"
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I have an indexing problem that is hard to describe, but here goes:
I am indexing a book on programming techniques. It has 160 techniques =
divided into categories like "writing cleaner code" and "avoiding =
crashes". I am indexing each technique under a category as well as by =
itself. The problem is that two of the categories ("avoiding crashes" =
and "avoiding unexpected results") cover 49 of the techniques. In =
addition, 16 of the techniques fall under both categories, 14 techniques =
are only in the former category and 19 are in the latter.=20
My choices seem to be to 1) index using two categories even though some =
of the techniques would appear under both (with 30 subentries under one =
and 35 subentries under the other, or 2) have three categories as in the =
following example (where both headings about crashes probably would =
appear together in the index):
crashes, avoiding
14 subentries
crashes/unexpected results, avoiding
16 subentries
unexpected results, avoiding
19 subentries
Hope this makes sense. Any comments about these solutions or other =
suggestions would be appreciated.
Nina
Nina Forrest
Looking Up Indexing Service
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BEED67.23D182A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have an indexing problem that is hard to describe, =
but here=20
goes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am indexing a book on programming techniques. It =
has 160=20
techniques divided into categories like "writing cleaner code" =
and=20
"avoiding crashes". I am indexing each technique under a =
category as=20
well as by itself. The problem is that two of the categories =
("avoiding=20
crashes" and "avoiding unexpected results") cover 49 of =
the=20
techniques. In addition, 16 of the techniques fall under both =
categories, 14=20
techniques are only in the former category and 19 are in the latter.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>My choices seem to be to 1) index using two =
categories even=20
though some of the techniques would appear under both (with 30 =
subentries under=20
one and 35 subentries under the other, or 2) have three categories as in =
the=20
following example (where both headings about crashes probably would =
appear=20
together in the index):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>crashes, avoiding</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> 14 =
subentries</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>crashes/unexpected results, avoiding</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> 16 =
subentries</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>unexpected results, avoiding</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> 19 =
subentries</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hope this =
makes sense. Any=20
comments about these solutions or other suggestions would be=20
appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Nina</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Nina Forrest</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Looking Up Indexing Service</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BEED67.23D182A0--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:59:52 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" <ibap@CRYSTALSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Wording of index entries
Comments: To: Nina Forrest <ninaf@mindspring.com>
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My quick reaction would be that "see also" or "see under" or "see also
under" might reduce the amount of duplication but might be a nuisance to
the reader. Is the crashes/unexpected results category necessary?
Iris
> Nina Forrest wrote:
>
> I have an indexing problem that is hard to describe, but here goes:
>
> I am indexing a book on programming techniques. It has 160 techniques
> divided into categories like "writing cleaner code" and "avoiding
> crashes". I am indexing each technique under a category as well as by
> itself. The problem is that two of the categories ("avoiding crashes"
> and "avoiding unexpected results") cover 49 of the techniques. In
> addition, 16 of the techniques fall under both categories, 14
> techniques are only in the former category and 19 are in the latter.
>
> My choices seem to be to 1) index using two categories even though
> some of the techniques would appear under both (with 30 subentries
> under one and 35 subentries under the other, or 2) have three
> categories as in the following example (where both headings about
> crashes probably would appear together in the index):
>
> crashes, avoiding
> 14 subentries
>
> crashes/unexpected results, avoiding
> 16 subentries
>
> unexpected results, avoiding
> 19 subentries
>
>
> Hope this makes sense. Any comments about these solutions or other
> suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Nina
>
> Nina Forrest
> Looking Up Indexing Service
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:59:59 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charlotte Skuster <skuster@BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Subject: Posting for Index-L (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:41:22 -0700
From: Bonnie Parks-Davies <info@asindexing.org>
To: skuster@binghamton.edu
Cc: ggroomes@sheppard-assoc.com
Subject: Posting for Index-L
>
Hello Charlotte,
Please post the following notice to Index-L.
Thank you
Bonnie
>
> Need an index for a 170 page employee benefit summary
> plan description. Knowledge of medical and benefits
> terminology a plus. Index should be 5-10 pages.
> Location of Indexer isn't a problem as long as
> he/she can receive and return copy electronically (Word).
> Would send copy by Sept 1 at the latest and need
> it back on Sept 9 at the latest.
> Respond to Gay Groomes and Peggy Sue Davis
> at ggroomes@sheppard-assoc.com and psdavis@sheppard-assoc.com.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:29:02 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM
Subject: Re: Tips
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:46:30 EDT Jeanne Lund <LUNDPJ@AOL.COM> writes:
>I am considering taking the appropriate courses on indexing and
>hopefully
>thereafter becoming a freelancer. Presently, I am a genealogist, so
>used to
>paying meticulous detail to things, and that is my subject area
>expertise. I
>would welcome any tips and advice from those of you out there doing
>this now
>- in particular:
>1) Are there any courses in particular you would recommend?
The USDA Basic Indexing course works for alot of people. The ASI
web site, www.asindexing.org has information about indexing - take a
look at it.
>2) What is the current going rate for indexing? (I realise this may
>vary)
This varies widely, and depends on the book, the subject, the
publisher, the negotiating skills of the indexer, etc. Some people think
$3 per page and up is the only reasonable rate. Others are willing to
work for less if, all things considered, they feel it's fair. Still
others set $4 per page as their minimum.
>3) Is it better to have a specialty in something - as in my genealogy
>- or
>does it not really matter?
It may matter to start with - a strong background in one subject
can strengthen your resume. After more experience, you might feel
comfortable branching into other subjects. Your choice.
>4) Is it relatively easy to get work, and what is the best way to do
>this?
It isn't easy to get work. Marketing directly to publishers
and networking are time honored ways to get work. It can take several
months of steady marketing work to land your first job.
>5) Any other tips?!
Investigate the ASI web site, read some books on indexing, join
the indexing students list
(http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/indexstudents), do searches on the
Index-L FAQ (accessible through the ASI web site), and read Index-L.
Call the USDA for a course catalog. Be willing to practice on your own a
lot.
- Susan
***************************************
Susan Danzi Hernandez
BookEnd Indexing
susanhernandez@juno.com
(316) 789-0576 (Kansas)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:19:53 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM
Subject: re which word is correct?
Comments: To: ssweeney@ruraltel.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Molina (Vocabulario en Lengua Castellana y Mexicana, 1571) has the following:
nextlaualli. sacrificio de sangre, que ofrecian a los idolos, fajandose o
horadando alguna parte del cuerpo
nextlahualtin, with its -tin suffix appears to be just the plural form of the
previous term.
LH Feldman
Lawrenc846@aol.com
indexer-researcher-writer (and occasional nahuatlatoa)
-------------------------------------------------------
I am indexing a book on Aztec human sacrifice. Two terms are used to
designate "debt payments," as in using human sacrifice to repay debts to
the gods. One term is "nextlaoalli" and the other is "nextlahualtin."
Are both correct or is this an error? If an error, which is correct?
I plan to query the editor tomorrow but hoped to get some insight before
doing so.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:31:50 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Bill.Graham@GSBSC.GENSIG.COM
Subject: conferences, workshops, seminars, meetings
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear indexers:
I am seeking any information about indexing conferences, meetings,
seminars, or workshops coming up between Oct 1, 1999 and Feb 1, 2000.
These events will appear in the A to Z Newsletter. I already know
about the following events:
ASIS conference, Oct. 31 - Nov. 4
Practical Conference on Communication, Oct. 15 - 16
MSI annual Fall conference, Oct. 2
Extraordinary General Meeting (Society of Indexers) Oct. 21
Electronic Publishing and Indexing (Society of Indexers) Oct. 21
I regularly peruse several indexing websites. Some of the websites are
current up to last this summer. I have found a few that have not had a
recent update. Another thing is that some indexers may be teaching
seminars, classes, or workshops. I know about a few of you, but I am
sure that I have missed many of your events.
I am also interested to see what is happening with two indexing
organizations. I have looked up the website for the China Society of
Indexers. Of course, I am at a loss to understand most of their
information because I do not speak Chinese. It would be helpful,
however, if someone were in touch with this group and could pass along
any information regarding their events. The other organization is the
Association of Southern African Indexers and Bibliographers. To my
knowledge, they do not appear to have a website.
Thanks for any help you can send my way. I will submit a draft early
next week for Fall and Winter indexing events. Have a nice day.
Bill Graham
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:04:56 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: BECohen653@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: conferences, workshops, seminars, meetings
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bill,
Here's a list of stuff I just collected for my chapter newsletter (attached
file).
Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
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--part1_c4018eb1.24f41ca8_boundary--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:38:22 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: conferences, workshops, seminars, meetings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Why are we all getting this attached file? I really don't want to receive
attached files on mailing lists.
Cynthia
At 12:04 PM 8/24/99 EDT, BECohen653@AOL.COM wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Here's a list of stuff I just collected for my chapter newsletter (attached
>file).
>
>Barbara E. Cohen
>Indianapolis, IN
>
>Attachment Converted: C:\BUFFET\Eudora\UPCOMI~1.DOC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:08:31 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Norcross <norcross@IPASS.NET>
Subject: Re: conferences, workshops, seminars, meetings
In-Reply-To: <c4018eb1.24f41ca8@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ASI Carolina Chapter upcoming event (from Lori Lathrop's
recent post):
From: Lori Lathrop <LoriLathrop@compuserve.com>
All -- FYI ... the American Society of Indexers Carolina
Conference,
"Getting Down to Business with Indexing Tools" scheduled for
October 2,
1999, now has a Web page.
Note: The announcement will also be on our chapter's Web
site in a few
weeks, when our "real" Webmaster returns. :-) In the
meantime, you can
find all of the information at
http://idt.net/~lathro19/caro~1.html
Ann Norcross
Raleigh, NC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:42 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lillian Ashworth <ashworth@PULLMAN.COM>
Subject: Authors!
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Hi all
Just received this request from the author I'm working for:
She wants me to add names into the index which are not included in the text!
Citing page numbers does present a slight problem.
Don't know whether to laugh or cry!
Lillian
ahsowrth@pullman.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:16:17 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
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From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors!
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Dear Lillian,
I think this calls for a good old-fashioned primal scream :-).
Good luck!
Sylvia Coates
-----Original Message-----
From: Lillian Ashworth <ashworth@PULLMAN.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 6:05 PM
Subject: Authors!
>Hi all
>
>Just received this request from the author I'm working for:
>
>She wants me to add names into the index which are not included in the
text!
>Citing page numbers does present a slight problem.
>
>Don't know whether to laugh or cry!
>
>Lillian
>ahsowrth@pullman.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:11:42 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Authors!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> Just received this request from the author I'm working for:
>
> She wants me to add names into the index which are not included in the
text!
> Citing page numbers does present a slight problem.
>
> Don't know whether to laugh or cry!
Can you explain to her why this is Not A Good Idea? Point out that the
index is meant to refer to material in the book, and these names aren't in
the book? Point out that the names will have no locators, which will
frustrate the heck out of the reader looking for them? Point out that if
the owners of the names look themselves up and find no locators, they will
be either frustrated, angry, disappointed or insulted? (No, forget the
third "point out" -- surely the author isn't trying to butter people up!
<tongue very much in cheek>)
One question does force its way through my immediate "say WHAT" reaction --
are these names authors whose work is discussed in the text, but whose name
(and even book title) is not given in conjunction with that discussion? If
so, I can see the author wanting to include those names, though presumably
they are in the bibliography already. (Note: I'm not saying she's right to
want them included, just that it is understandable that she might want them
included.) But the second objection above still stands: the reader won't
recognize that they have found the [un]named author's work when they find
it.
Good luck trying to work this out with her!
Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:49:32 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sendx@AOL.COM
Subject: Authors
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Several times in the past I was presented with a list of the author's terms
to incorporate in the index. In each case a considerable number of terms were
nowhere to be found in the text. I thought the missing terms had been in
earlier drafts and were edited out. Perhaps it was on purpose!
Anyway, since it was very time-consuming to search for terms that aren't
there,
I now have a special rate which discourages author intervention.
Anita Levy
Space Coast Indexers, Inc.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:53:45 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" <ibap@CRYSTALSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors!
Comments: To: Lillian Ashworth <ashworth@pullman.com>
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Hello? Anybody home? Say what? This does beat all. What would be the
purpose of this with no locators? Are there book titles in the text
without authors but she wants them in the index, referencing the title?
Gee, shouldn't she have thought of this when citing the titles? Are you
supposed to reference bibliography pages?
Please let us know what eventually shakes out of this.
Iris
Lillian Ashworth wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> Just received this request from the author I'm working for:
>
> She wants me to add names into the index which are not included in the text!
> Citing page numbers does present a slight problem.
>
> Don't know whether to laugh or cry!
>
> Lillian
> ahsowrth@pullman.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:07:22 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lillian Ashworth <ashworth@PULLMAN.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kara writes:
<snip>
>One question does force its way through my immediate "say WHAT" reaction --
>are these names authors whose work is discussed in the text, but whose name
>(and even book title) is not given in conjunction with that discussion? If
>so, I can see the author wanting to include those names, though presumably
>they are in the bibliography already.
Yes, this does appear to be the case. Before beginning, I checked the press
style and they don't use the convention of citing authors in the index with
the note as locator and the page in the text with the citation in
parentheses. 10 authors, 40 pages of endnotes. And it's due tomorrow at the
press.
So many pages; so little time!
Oh --one more thing, she has added the following entry:
"Experience, 144-45"
Say what? That could apply to every page in the book. (Experience, 1-210
_passim_)
I've written to her and pointed out the difficulty in citing entries with no
page numbers and questioned the rationale behind the new entry. I've also
pointed out that we've already shot past tomorrow's deadline and probably
also Thursday.
Brings to mind a billing ploy I used years ago when I ran a typing and
editing service:
The "All Creatures Great and Small" billing strategy:
If you have a nuisance for a client, then you add a little extra to the
bill. And I did. Several times. A little more difficult, though, when you
bill on a per page rate.
Lillian
ashworth@pullman.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:19:25 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Authors!
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Are these proper names or terms/concepts? Because sometimes authors do
present us with lists that include implied concepts and these lists can be
very useful when the subject of the index is something in which we are not
particularly well versed. And even if we are, we can get a leg up on the
index by having these guidelines.
On the flip side, and to be honest, I have seen some interesting lists like
the one that included the names of restaurants where the author and his
subject (it was a lit crit book) had eaten! Like, "We grabbed a bite to eat
at ----- before we went to the meeting." Unfortunately, I was given this
particular list several days before the index was due and I could not find a
few of the restaurant names ... maybe they were not there?? Yes, they were
passing mentions, but the author wanted them in the index.
Cynthia
At 02:53 PM 8/24/99 -0400, Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik wrote:
>Hello? Anybody home? Say what? This does beat all. What would be the
>purpose of this with no locators? Are there book titles in the text
>without authors but she wants them in the index, referencing the title?
>Gee, shouldn't she have thought of this when citing the titles? Are you
>supposed to reference bibliography pages?
>
>Please let us know what eventually shakes out of this.
>
>Iris
>
>Lillian Ashworth wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> Just received this request from the author I'm working for:
>>
>> She wants me to add names into the index which are not included in the text!
>> Citing page numbers does present a slight problem.
>>
>> Don't know whether to laugh or cry!
>>
>> Lillian
>> ahsowrth@pullman.com
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:41:08 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Back Words Indexing <index@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors!
In-Reply-To: <199908241755.KAA24827@whale.fsr.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Just received this request from the author I'm working for:
>She wants me to add names into the index which are not included in the text!
>Citing page numbers does present a slight problem.
>Don't know whether to laugh or cry!
Lillian, What an opportunity! Please add my name to the index!
Martha
BWI
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:55:17 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: IndexArts@AOL.COM
Subject: New Web Site
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I'm a new indexer just starting to market my business. I just finished my
web site after struggling with it all summer! I hope some of you will look
at it when you have time and give me your honest opinion of it. <A
HREF="http://www.index-arts.com/">Index-Arts</A>
I will really appreciate any suggestions or advice.
Carol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol Deason
IndexArts
mail to: Carol@Index-Arts.com
http://www.Index-Arts.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:45:14 -0700
Reply-To: nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Authors!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maybe you are supposed to make up the
locators.
What was it that Reagan Budget Director
David Stockman said? "Nobody understands these
numbers anyway."
Nick Koenig
>Hi all
>
>Just received this request from the author I'm working for:
>
>She wants me to add names into the index which are not included in the
text!
>Citing page numbers does present a slight problem.
>
>Don't know whether to laugh or cry!
>
>Lillian
>ahsowrth@pullman.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:06:34 -0700
Reply-To: Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: University presses and samples
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I have a couple of questions for anyone who can answer them:
(1) A question for those of you who work for university presses: Who tends
to
coordinate the hiring of indexers at university presses? (I.e., what is the
person's title?)
(2) Many publishers ask for sample indexes when first approached. Do you
send them an entire index, or just a sample page or two?
Thank you,
Homer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:54:01 PDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: michelle wiseman <michellewiseman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: university presses
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi all!
I think Homer's questions regarding university presses are good ones. I am
just beginning to market my services, and would like to concentrate on some
of the university presses. If anyone has any suggestions regarding 1) to
whom I would address my marketing packets, and 2) should I send an entire
index, or a sample page or two?
Thanks to Homer for reminding me I needed to ask these questions! I am so
new I have a million different questions every day!
Thanks in advance,
Michelle Wiseman
By-The-Book Indexing Services
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:06:16 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Journal Indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BEEE7C.E30280A0"
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I have the honor of being invited to offer a proposal to a publisher of =
a Christian magazine. BUT, I have never indexed journals. The request =
is to index 21 years of monthly 30 - 40 page magazines. (From 1978 to =
end 1999.) =20
The idea is to turn this index into a soft-cover book and sell it to =
subscribers to cover my fee for indexing. =20
My sense is that she wants not only title, author and journal issue =
date, but some light, major topic entries to guide readers to their =
desired topic.
I do not know how to price this. If it is hourly, it will have to be =
open-ended as I don't know my hourly production rate on journal =
materials. I am expecting Bell's OP on indexing journals any day now.
That should help.
ANY guidance appreciated. I want to do this work. I want to be fair - =
to both myself and the publishing house. She wants to continue with the =
index on an annual basis, I would guess, beginning in 2000.
Ardith Ayotte, R.T.
ABBA Index Services
abba@crosslink.net
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BEEE7C.E30280A0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have the honor of being invited to =
offer a=20
proposal to a publisher of a Christian magazine. BUT, I have never =
indexed=20
journals. The request is to index 21 years of monthly 30 - 40 page =
magazines. (From 1978 to end 1999.) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The idea is to turn this index into =
a soft-cover=20
book and sell it to subscribers to cover my fee for indexing. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My sense is that she wants not only =
title,=20
author and journal issue date, but some light, major topic entries to =
guide=20
readers to their desired topic.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I do not know how to price =
this. If it is=20
hourly, it will have to be open-ended as I don't know my hourly =
production rate=20
on journal materials. I am expecting Bell's OP on indexing =
journals any=20
day now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>That should help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>ANY guidance appreciated. I =
want to do=20
this work. I want to be fair - to both myself and the publishing=20
house. She wants to continue with the index on an annual basis, I =
would=20
guess, beginning in 2000.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ardith Ayotte, R.T.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>ABBA Index Services</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:abba@crosslink.net">abba@crosslink.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BEEE7C.E30280A0--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:28:59 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: university presses
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I would suggest that you contact, by phone, the university press you are
targeting and ask for the name of the person in charge of hiring indexers.
Then, send that person your resume and a sample index. I would suggest
sending them an entire index and not just a page or two. If you've done any
indexing work for another editor list them as a reference (after first
checking with that editor of course). If you have some educational or
professional experience in a specific discipline you should definitely
mention it. Also, any foreign language skills should also be mentioned.
I'd then give the editor a week or two to look over your resume (these
people tend to be very busy) and then give him or her a follow-up call.
Some university presses keep a list of indexers which they pass out to
authors who then directly contact the indexers. In this case the indexer
works directly with the author. Other university presses contact indexers
themselves and the indexer works directly with the editor and not the
author.
Most of my indexing career has been spent working for university presses.
While I enjoy this kind of work very much you need to be aware that other
kinds of indexing are somewhat less demanding and pay more per hour (due to
the difficult level of academic indexing). Also, the more indexing
experience you have the more likely you are to be added to a university
press freelancer list. These kinds of presses are looking for experienced
and/or specially skilled indexers. It certainly doesn't mean that they won't
hire someone with little or no experience, it just means that it's less
likely then if you are very experienced.
Good luck!
Best,
Sylvia Coates
-----Original Message-----
From: michelle wiseman <michellewiseman@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 1:00 AM
Subject: university presses
>Hi all!
>
>I think Homer's questions regarding university presses are good ones. I am
>just beginning to market my services, and would like to concentrate on some
>of the university presses. If anyone has any suggestions regarding 1) to
>whom I would address my marketing packets, and 2) should I send an entire
>index, or a sample page or two?
>Thanks to Homer for reminding me I needed to ask these questions! I am so
>new I have a million different questions every day!
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Michelle Wiseman
>By-The-Book Indexing Services
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 02:02:06 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Authors
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
May I ask the phrasing of the information regarding this "special rate that
discourages auther intervention"? Such a wonderful concept. LOL
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 02:02:25 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tips
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
As an official self-designated word policeperson, I hereby issue a cease and
desist order for the non-word "alot". Seeing it here, of all places, hurts
-- like hearing a musician who _almost_ hits his note.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:46:17 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <indexer@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors!
In-Reply-To: <199908250401.AAA00064@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Maybe you were supposed to read *between* the lines. ;-)
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
new Web address to come
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:58:31 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Maria Coughlin <mariac@INDEXING.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors!
In-Reply-To: <199908250401.AAA00064@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Just a note of consolation to all of you dealing with
nuisance clients:
1. We've had publishers ask us to finish the index on
a date preceding the day we were to receive the remaining
page proof.
2. We've had publishers and editors ask us to send them
the "first half" of the index, so they could get to work
on it while we finish the second half.
3. I once had an author present me with a list of *very
important* terms that he wanted me to index out of
alphabetical order, so that they'd appear at the
beginning of the index, where everyone could find them
right away.
I love my job.
Maria
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:45:04 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie Conroy <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Authors
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:02 AM 8/25/99 EDT, JAbbott916@AOL.COM wrote:
>May I ask the phrasing of the information regarding this "special rate that
>discourages auther intervention"? Such a wonderful concept. LOL
I loved it, too!
Years ago, I used to take my car to a local mechanic who had a sign posted
on his wall that went something like this: "Hourly rates: $20 if you leave
the car, $50 if you stand around and watch us work, $100 if you want to
help." I've always remembered that.
Sonsie
sconroy@slonet.org
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:44:05 -0400
Reply-To: Kim Schroeder <kschroed@mail.msen.com>,
Karen Spern <kspern@bestweb.net>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Karen Spern <kspern@BESTWEB.NET>
Subject: Visual Indexing Workshop
Comments: To: asis-l@asis.org, VRA-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU, arlis-l@lsv.uky.edu,
arliswny-l@cornell.edu, arlis-ne-l@listserv.bc.edu,
IMAGELIB@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU, archives@listserv.muohio.edu
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Posted to several lists. Please excuse any duplication.
ARCHIVE IMPACT PRESENTS
A VISUAL INDEXING WORKSHOP
Archive Impact invites you to join them at the Science, Industry, & Business
Library in New York City to experience an intensive one-day workshop
introducing the concepts and methodology of still and moving image indexing.
188 Madison Avenue at 34th Street, New York City
Friday, October 1, 1999
10:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.
A NEW INDEXING SKILL
Archive Impact www.archiveimpact.com was started in 1994 by a group of
library, archive, and information science professionals driven to better
understand indexing, accessibility, and retrieval for imagery. Since then,
the team has succeeded in indexing more than 700,000 images and countless
hours of footage for clients across North America. In doing so, they have
developed a strong understanding of visual literacy. Now they have put
together a workshop in which they share their experience and techniques by
training others in visual image indexing.
The New York City workshop promises theory, practice, and discussion.
Participants will walk away with an understanding of how to analyze still
and motion imagery. Students are encouraged to participate in the intensive
workgroups and experience for themselves the different ways that people see
the same imagery. Workgroup participants will learn to reach consensus and
consistency through thought provoking group discussion.
WORKSHOP SCHEDULE
10:00 - 11:30 Still Image Indexing Concepts
Overview of the different elements that directly and indirectly impact
visual indexing including: scope of the collection, needs of the clients and
searchers, types of software, and time frame. Introduction to
object-oriented indexing.
11:30 - 1:00 Still Image Intensive Workgroup
Workgroup session to practice the concepts introduced; followed by a
moderated discussion.
BREAK FOR LUNCH
2:00 - 4:00 Moving Image Indexing Concepts
Introduction of terminology and discussion on motion indexing approaches.
Discussion of controlled vocabulary use and how it affects searching, as
well as discussion of types of motion and how to index (e.g. interviews,
documentaries, features, commercials, etc.).
4:00 - 5:00 Moving Image Intensive Workgroup
Workgroup session to show various examples of videos and how to analyze each
type.
5:00 - 5:45 Question and Answer
REGISTRATION INFORMATION
Each participant will receive an information packet in the mail before the
conference. Please become familiar with the enclosed information and bring
packets to the workshop.
Include:
Name
Address
Telephone
Fax
E-Mail
BEFORE September 24, 1999
Full-day Workshop $295.00
ASI Members Rate $265.00
AFTER September 24, 1999 $330.00
& at the door
50% refund postmarked on or before September 17, 1999
No refunds after September 17, 1999
Please print this email form and return it to:
123 Seventh Avenue
PMB 195
Brooklyn, New York 11215
For more information contact:
Phone: 1-888-IMPACT1
Fax: 313-366-2199
Email: kschroed@mail.msen.com
www.archiveimpact.com
New York City Information
TRANSPORTATION
AIRPORTS
NYC is serviced by La Guardia Airport, JFK International Airport, and Newark
International Airport. Transportation to and from the airport is often
provided by the hotel or by cab and bus. Consult the Ground Transportation
in the Airport.
TRAINS
NYC is accessible by Amtrak, and other local carriers into Penn Station,
Manhattan.
BUSES
NYC is also accessible by local and national bus-lines into Port Authority,
Manhattan.
WORLD WIDE WEB
www.totalny.com - a cool NYC site
www.citysearchnyc/nyc/index.html - NYC tourism
www.nypl.org - Science, Industry & Business Library
www.NYCtourist.com - the official site of NYC
HOTEL INFORMATION
Holiday Inn Broadway (at 32nd St) 1-888-NY HOLIDAY
or Best Western (17 West 32nd St) 1-800-567-7720.
The web site www.NYCtourist.com provides a list of hotels near the workshop
(Click on Hotel Listings and Services, Click on NYC - Downtown, scroll down
to 31st - 41st. ). Some hotel discounts are found by calling: (800) 356-1123
Express Hotel Reservations or (800) 964-6835 Hotel Discounts Reservations.
AROUND SIBL
The Science, Industry & Business Library is in the area adjacent to the
Empire State Building. Also, in this neighborhood, the Pierpont Morgan
Library and Museum displays one of eleven remaining Gutenberg Bibles. And,
the world's largest department store, Macy's, is around the corner!
###
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:09:09 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: SharonSims@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: university presses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 08/24/1999 10:37:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
scoates@RCN.COM writes:
<< Most of my indexing career has been spent working for university presses.
While I enjoy this kind of work very much you need to be aware that other
kinds of indexing are somewhat less demanding and pay more per hour (due to
the difficult level of academic indexing).
>>
Hi Sylvia,
I too am a new indexer looking for areas to focus on for marketing. In your
experience, what are these other kinds of indexing that might be less
demanding and willing to work with less experienced indexers?
Thanks for any advice,
Sharon Sims
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:44:23 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: university presses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear Sharon,
I'm sure that many other indexers could give you equally viable leads but
here are mine:
There are many trade book publishers all over the U.S. The Writer's Market
(which you can either buy or find in your local library) lists all kinds of
publisher information. That would probably be a good place to start looking.
You can call some of the publishers listed and ask if they hire freelance
indexers. Then, if they do, begin to market to them.
Also, if you have experience in the computer industry, you might want to
start with indexing technical documentation. This is a fast growing indexing
area for those with the appropriate background.
It's important to assess your educational or professional background and try
to match them with potential clients. For example, there are several legal
indexers who have law degrees or some experience in the legal profession.
They understand the vocabulary etc. which allows them to get into legal
indexing more easily then someone who has no such experience. Those with a
nursing or medical background are often drawn toward medical indexing.
What you don't want to do is pretend to have the expertise to index
something and then to do a poor job. I've found indexing to be a small world
(I'm always running into the same editors or editors who know someone I've
worked for) and you need to guard your credibility and reputation. A
professional reputation is important in any profession, including indexing!
Everyone, through education or life experience, has a background in
something. Figure out what your expertise is and market yourself toward
publishers who specialize in those kind of books/subjects.
As I said, I'm quite sure that any experienced indexer on this list or in
your local ASI chapter may have other good suggestions. I'd advise you to
join your local ASI chapter and network with the experienced indexers in
your area.
Good luck!
Best,
Sylvia Coates
-----Original Message-----
From: SharonSims@AOL.COM <SharonSims@AOL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: university presses
>In a message dated 08/24/1999 10:37:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
>scoates@RCN.COM writes:
>
><< Most of my indexing career has been spent working for university
presses.
> While I enjoy this kind of work very much you need to be aware that other
> kinds of indexing are somewhat less demanding and pay more per hour (due
to
> the difficult level of academic indexing).
> >>
>Hi Sylvia,
>
>I too am a new indexer looking for areas to focus on for marketing. In
your
>experience, what are these other kinds of indexing that might be less
>demanding and willing to work with less experienced indexers?
>
>Thanks for any advice,
>Sharon Sims
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:04:16 PDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: university presses
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Sharon,
I know you asked the question to Sylvia, but I am also going to intervene if
you do not mind it. :-)
I have been indexing for the last 2 years and *not even a single*
university press has given me any indexing project. Though some of them have
told me that they have put me in their freelancers list, but I do not care
for that list until I get the *actual* project in my hands.
But on the other hand, commercial publishers whether they publish trade
books or medical books or any other type, they are much more willing to give
a chance to a new indexer. My bulk of business is doing medical books and
since April of this year, I have also been indexing some trade books.
To be honest, I have literally lost faith in university presses that I will
ever get any indexing project from them. They seem to be much more choosier.
I have heard from so many indexers that university presses authors
*interfere* quite a lot during the actual indexing process of the book even
if they do not understand what the heck is indexing. At least that is NOT my
experience with commercial publishers I work with.
Happy indexing!
MANJIT K. SAHAI
Sterling, VA
>From: SharonSims@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>Subject: Re: university presses
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:09:09 EDT
>
>In a message dated 08/24/1999 10:37:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
>scoates@RCN.COM writes:
>
><< Most of my indexing career has been spent working for university
>presses.
> While I enjoy this kind of work very much you need to be aware that other
> kinds of indexing are somewhat less demanding and pay more per hour (due
>to
> the difficult level of academic indexing).
> >>
>Hi Sylvia,
>
>I too am a new indexer looking for areas to focus on for marketing. In
>your
>experience, what are these other kinds of indexing that might be less
>demanding and willing to work with less experienced indexers?
>
>Thanks for any advice,
>Sharon Sims
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:09:16 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: PattieR1@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Freelancers and benefits
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
I am new to the list, and just wanted to add to Pamela's post. Another
organization that has benefit packages for the self-employed is the National
Association for the Self Employed
http://www.nase.com/
My family had insurance through them for a few years when my husband was
between jobs and doing independent consulting. Membership is $72 a year, and
there are many benefits, including a menu-style health plan, meaning you can
pick and choose which coverages you want, and deductibles, etc. There is
also a prescription plan, and life insurance available as well. Quite
reasonable as I remember.
cheers to you all, and thanks, Pamela for the other suggestions.
pattie
pattie rechtman
pattier@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:19:46 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: BECohen653@AOL.COM
Subject: Mea culpa
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To everyone kind enough to take the time to point out the problem introduced
when I included an attached file in an Index-L posting:
You have probably figured out by now that the message was supposed to go
directly to Bill Graham, who received it and downloaded the file without
incident.
In case you haven't figured this out, that was the case. I simply made an
error in sending my reply to the whole list instead of just to Bill. As we
all know, accidents happen (almost daily!). Please just ignore that posting.
Hope that clears up the problem for those of you wondering what happened.
Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:14:12 -0700
Reply-To: Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: university presses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Manjit,
This is interesting. Thank you for the forewarning.
You mention that publishers of trade and medical books are more willing to
hire new indexers than university presses. Are you saying that medical
publishers do not require their indexers to have a medical background?
Regards,
Homer
-----Original Message-----
From: Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: university presses
>Hi Sharon,
>
>I know you asked the question to Sylvia, but I am also going to intervene
if
>you do not mind it. :-)
>
>I have been indexing for the last 2 years and *not even a single*
>university press has given me any indexing project. Though some of them
have
>told me that they have put me in their freelancers list, but I do not care
>for that list until I get the *actual* project in my hands.
>
>But on the other hand, commercial publishers whether they publish trade
>books or medical books or any other type, they are much more willing to
give
>a chance to a new indexer. My bulk of business is doing medical books and
>since April of this year, I have also been indexing some trade books.
>
>To be honest, I have literally lost faith in university presses that I will
>ever get any indexing project from them. They seem to be much more
choosier.
>I have heard from so many indexers that university presses authors
>*interfere* quite a lot during the actual indexing process of the book even
>if they do not understand what the heck is indexing. At least that is NOT
my
>experience with commercial publishers I work with.
>
>Happy indexing!
>
>MANJIT K. SAHAI
>Sterling, VA
>
>
>
>>From: SharonSims@AOL.COM
>>Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
>>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>>Subject: Re: university presses
>>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:09:09 EDT
>>
>>In a message dated 08/24/1999 10:37:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
>>scoates@RCN.COM writes:
>>
>><< Most of my indexing career has been spent working for university
>>presses.
>> While I enjoy this kind of work very much you need to be aware that
other
>> kinds of indexing are somewhat less demanding and pay more per hour (due
>>to
>> the difficult level of academic indexing).
>> >>
>>Hi Sylvia,
>>
>>I too am a new indexer looking for areas to focus on for marketing. In
>>your
>>experience, what are these other kinds of indexing that might be less
>>demanding and willing to work with less experienced indexers?
>>
>>Thanks for any advice,
>>Sharon Sims
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:31:52 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sendx@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Authors
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I quote double the per page rate and explain that all pages count as
"indexable" since
all pages must be scrutinized to look for terms on the list.
I explain that indexing based on what I actually see on the page proofs takes
considerably less time than searching every page for individual terms, which
may or may not be there at all. (This is true, plus it is pure drudgery.)
Further, I explain, the idea is to index from the reader's point of view,
rather than the author's, who probably knows the book inside-out by now. (Not
necessarily true, but they obviously think so!)
It has worked in the past. If they decided to reassign the book, that would
be just as well. What would be a problem would be if somebody did decide to
take me up on it!
Anita Levy
Space Coast Indexers, Inc.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:20:41 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" <ibap@CRYSTALSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Reminds me of the one that said
Returned check charge $20
With excuses $50
Iris
Sonsie Conroy wrote:
>
> At 02:02 AM 8/25/99 EDT, JAbbott916@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >May I ask the phrasing of the information regarding this "special rate that
> >discourages auther intervention"? Such a wonderful concept. LOL
>
> I loved it, too!
>
> Years ago, I used to take my car to a local mechanic who had a sign posted
> on his wall that went something like this: "Hourly rates: $20 if you leave
> the car, $50 if you stand around and watch us work, $100 if you want to
> help." I've always remembered that.
>
> Sonsie
> sconroy@slonet.org
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:06:42 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors
In-Reply-To: <199908251834.OAA20065@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I quote double the per page rate and explain that all pages count as
> "indexable" since
> all pages must be scrutinized to look for terms on the list.
FWIW, I recently had a job like this where I was able to turn the MS-Word
concordance feature to my advantage.
I had both print proofs and Word files. The author had provided a list of
people and place names of importance. From his list, I built a concordance
file in Word and turned loose the Word automated indexing feature. This
returned to me a list of every name and every page it appeared on. This by
itself was a pretty worthless list, since it generated names followed by
sometimes dozens of page numbers. But, it gave me a definitive list of
every occurrence of every name. I then went down the list, decided which
occurrences were significant, then built my Cindex index accordingly.
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:50:09 PDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: university presses
Comments: To: advms@mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Homer,
I do not know about medical publishers in general whether they want their
prospective indexers to have medical background or not.
I have a undergraduate degree in Biology and I do not have a clue if my
biology background made any difference for me to get medical indexing
projects. None of the medical publishers I work with, have ever asked me
about my educational background. In my opinion, they are concerned with the
indexing experience in general, rather than in particular degress of the
indexer.
BTW, I do know quite a few indexers who have liberal arts background and
bulk of their business is indexing medical books and journals. Obviously,
someone has given them a chance.
But on the other hand, some of the university presses have openly told me
that they won't give me scholarly work because I do not have any experience
indexing scholarly books. I tell them openly also that someone has to give
me a chance to *get* the experience, but obviously, nobody is willing to
take that chance and my samples (for scholarly boks) are not enough for
them.
I am sure other indexers have different opinions and experiences working for
university presses. At least, I am always discouraged whenever I talk to
university press editors. I am devoting my attention towards trade and
scientific publishers.
Regards,
MANJIT K. SAHAI
>From: Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
>Reply-To: Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>Subject: Re: university presses
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:14:12 -0700
>
>Manjit,
>
>This is interesting. Thank you for the forewarning.
>
>You mention that publishers of trade and medical books are more willing to
>hire new indexers than university presses. Are you saying that medical
>publishers do not require their indexers to have a medical background?
>
>Regards,
>Homer
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
>Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 11:07 AM
>Subject: Re: university presses
>
>
> >Hi Sharon,
> >
> >I know you asked the question to Sylvia, but I am also going to intervene
>if
> >you do not mind it. :-)
> >
> >I have been indexing for the last 2 years and *not even a single*
> >university press has given me any indexing project. Though some of them
>have
> >told me that they have put me in their freelancers list, but I do not
>care
> >for that list until I get the *actual* project in my hands.
> >
> >But on the other hand, commercial publishers whether they publish trade
> >books or medical books or any other type, they are much more willing to
>give
> >a chance to a new indexer. My bulk of business is doing medical books and
> >since April of this year, I have also been indexing some trade books.
> >
> >To be honest, I have literally lost faith in university presses that I
>will
> >ever get any indexing project from them. They seem to be much more
>choosier.
> >I have heard from so many indexers that university presses authors
> >*interfere* quite a lot during the actual indexing process of the book
>even
> >if they do not understand what the heck is indexing. At least that is NOT
>my
> >experience with commercial publishers I work with.
> >
> >Happy indexing!
> >
> >MANJIT K. SAHAI
> >Sterling, VA
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: SharonSims@AOL.COM
> >>Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
> >>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> >>Subject: Re: university presses
> >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:09:09 EDT
> >>
> >>In a message dated 08/24/1999 10:37:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
> >>scoates@RCN.COM writes:
> >>
> >><< Most of my indexing career has been spent working for university
> >>presses.
> >> While I enjoy this kind of work very much you need to be aware that
>other
> >> kinds of indexing are somewhat less demanding and pay more per hour
>(due
> >>to
> >> the difficult level of academic indexing).
> >> >>
> >>Hi Sylvia,
> >>
> >>I too am a new indexer looking for areas to focus on for marketing. In
> >>your
> >>experience, what are these other kinds of indexing that might be less
> >>demanding and willing to work with less experienced indexers?
> >>
> >>Thanks for any advice,
> >>Sharon Sims
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________________________
> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:41:02 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: university presses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>But on the other hand, some of the university presses have openly told me
>that they won't give me scholarly work because I do not have any experience
>indexing scholarly books. I tell them openly also that someone has to give
>me a chance to *get* the experience, but obviously, nobody is willing to
>take that chance and my samples (for scholarly boks) are not enough for
>them.
>
>I am sure other indexers have different opinions and experiences working
for
>university presses. At least, I am always discouraged whenever I talk to
>university press editors. I am devoting my attention towards trade and
>scientific publishers.
>
>Regards,
>
>MANJIT K. SAHAI
Hi all,
I believe that Manjit's experience is not unusual. This is why, when asked
about scholarly indexing by new indexers, I try to steer them to other kinds
of indexing.
It's not impossible for a new indexer to get into scholarly indexing
(otherwise there wouldn't be any scholarly indexers as we were all new at
one point) but it is, as Manjit has pointed out, very difficult.
Best,
Sylvia Coates
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:46:51 -0700
Reply-To: Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: university presses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To Sylvia and Manjit:
Thank you for the helpful information and advice; they will be a big help in
my marketing efforts!
Best wishes,
Homer
-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: university presses
>>
>>But on the other hand, some of the university presses have openly told me
>>that they won't give me scholarly work because I do not have any
experience
>>indexing scholarly books. I tell them openly also that someone has to give
>>me a chance to *get* the experience, but obviously, nobody is willing to
>>take that chance and my samples (for scholarly boks) are not enough for
>>them.
>>
>>I am sure other indexers have different opinions and experiences working
>for
>>university presses. At least, I am always discouraged whenever I talk to
>>university press editors. I am devoting my attention towards trade and
>>scientific publishers.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>MANJIT K. SAHAI
>
>Hi all,
>
>I believe that Manjit's experience is not unusual. This is why, when asked
>about scholarly indexing by new indexers, I try to steer them to other
kinds
>of indexing.
>
>It's not impossible for a new indexer to get into scholarly indexing
>(otherwise there wouldn't be any scholarly indexers as we were all new at
>one point) but it is, as Manjit has pointed out, very difficult.
>
>Best,
>Sylvia Coates
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:41:00 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: university presses
In-Reply-To: <19990825205014.19478.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi All:
>I have a undergraduate degree in Biology and I do not have a clue if my
>biology background made any difference for me to get medical indexing
>projects. None of the medical publishers I work with, have ever asked me
>about my educational background. In my opinion, they are concerned with the
>indexing experience in general, rather than in particular degress of the
>indexer.
Are editors concerned with our educational experience, our professional
experience, or both?
It makes me wonder if editors really understand what questions to ask us
when they are interviewing us for the first time for potential new indexing
assignments.
Because of my medical background, I've concentrated on medical publishers,
and am pleased to say that I'm getting some positive responses this year.
But it is difficult to figure out why an editor choses one indexer over
another when deciding who to hire for a specific project.
Willa (gearing up for a weekend of contra dancing and jamming at Cardigan
Lodge....)
Willa MacAllen
Information Organizer
MacAllen's Information Services
Boston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:23:05 PDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Sending Updated resumes to clients
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi everyone,
I want to know if you desperately want to work for a *particular* client,
then how often you send your updated resumes or what kind of other marketing
technique you use in order to get the business from them.
I have 3 clients (2 of them are medical publishers and the 3rd one is a
trade publisher) for whom I desperately want to work. I have sent my resumes
to them, they have been very impressed with my experience and all 3 of them
told me that they have plenty of indexers in their pool and will definitely
give me work whenever they are looking for a new indexer. But so far I have
not gotten any work from those 3 publishers.
1.....Now should I send them another resume (because now my list of indexes
is quite big and getting biger everyday)?
2....Should I call those editors to remind them that I am still in business
and very much alive? :-)
Any helpful ideas would be greatly appreciated.
MANJIT K. SAHAI
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:35:31 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Sending Updated resumes to clients
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Manjit,
I wouldn't be too persistent. No point getting the wrong kind of reputation.
Potential clients can hold on to your materials for years. Sometimes they
materialize into work, and sometimes not. But I wouldn't like to run the
risk of antagonizing a good potential client.
What I *would* do though is be sure to send a holiday card, calendar, or some
other type of marketing material (NOT a gift) when the occasion is
appropriate, such as at Winter holiday time. An informational newsletter is
good too, if you can make one up that is not just shameless self-promotion,
but that has content to it. That's a tough order, and I don't know many
indexers who do it, but it is an interesting alternative marketing technique.
Hope this helps.
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:11:51 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Bill.Graham@GSBSC.GENSIG.COM
Subject: conferences, workshops, seminars, meetings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Dear Indexers:
I appreciate all the help you gave me the other day on the indexing
events. Have a great day.
Sincerely,
Bill Graham
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:59:30 +0100
Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "J.R. Sampson" <jsampson@INDEXES.U-NET.COM>
Subject: Cognitive linguistics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Hello -
Can anyone advise on an introductory book on the above, or
language science generally?
Regards
_John Sampson_
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:49:01 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lillian Ashworth <ashworth@PULLMAN.COM>
Subject: Authors! + Urban legends & indexing
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi all-
Many thanks for all of your humorous suggestions and comments regarding the
author requests I received day before yesterday.
Re: authors who weren't in the text -- Kara had the right idea; they were
minute citation refs in the notes section and the au's request was along the
lines of "professional courtesy" (probable translation: I'll mention your
name in my index so you will mention mine in yours); so we compromised. She
provided the page/note numbers and I tracked down the actual text page to
which the note referred. This yielded a number of entries in the following
style:
Doe, John, 234n. 10(150)
and an addition to the headnote explaining that the number in parentheses
referred to the page on which the actual quote appeared.
As to the Experience, 144-45 entry, au suggested following version:
"Experience, double sense of, 144-45." Client pays bill; client gets entry!
Finally, upon hearing my au's requested "Experience, 144-45" entry and my
suggested tongue-in-cheek version, "Experience, 1-210 passim", My brother
(the writer who writes his own indexes) passed this "legend" along to me:
> There
>was a monster book on child care, 1422 pages long, that came out a
>number of years ago (I think in the fifties). Nestled in the index
>someplace between "babies" and "bottles" was "birds, for the, pp.
>1-1422." I'm told this is a true story.
And another brother contributed this:
>Our neighbor across the street works in the medical school here as a grant
>writer, and one of the doctors she works with brought to her a textbook on
>gynecology, I think, written by a guy in Texas who is evidently one of the
>most knowledgable people in the field, and has the ego to prove it. In
>fact, he evidently has a reputation around medical schools as being a
>first class SOB, espcially concerning women. So Maggie's friend had
>occasion to look up some disease that starts with the letters "ch", and
>discovered "Chauvinism, male. 1-568." A little more research revealed
>that this index entry only showed up around the 3rd edition, and
>mysteriously and quietly disappeared in the 5th or 6th.
>
>Now I haven't seen this with my OWN eyes, but, well, I think it's true...
>
On to the next index!
Lillian Ashworth
ashworth@pullman.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:01:09 -0700
Reply-To: Julie Shawvan <shawvan@well.com>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Julie Shawvan <shawvan@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cognitive linguistics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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A suitable book for the general reader is _The Language Instinct_ by Steven
Pinker. It's 5 years old. I haven't read it yet, but Pinker is at MIT, which
is a hotbed of cognitive science.
Julie Shawvan
J.R. Sampson wrote:
<Can anyone advise on an introductory book on the above, or
<language science generally?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:06:13 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Craig Brown <lastword@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Cognitive linguistics
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
On 8/26/1999 5:01 PM Julie Shawvan wrote (in part):
>A suitable book for the general reader is _The Language Instinct_ by Steven
>Pinker. It's 5 years old. I haven't read it yet, but Pinker is at MIT, which
>is a hotbed of cognitive science.
I have read it. It's controversial, provocative, and a really good read.
Craig Brown
The Last Word
Indexing Services
(314) 352-9094
lastword@mindspring.com
lastword@i1.net
www.i1.net/~lastword
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:14:51 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Dorothy Dirienzi <DOROTHY.DIRIENZI@ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Authors! + Urban legends & indexing
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The book on child care is by Nelson, published by W.B. Saunders. The entry
appeared in the first edition, and the indexer was his daughter. It has
been carried since in tribute to Dr. Nelson. Dot DiRienzi
> ----------
> From: Lillian Ashworth
> Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:49 PM
> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
> Subject: Authors! + Urban legends & indexing
>
> Hi all-
>
> Many thanks for all of your humorous suggestions and comments regarding
> the
> author requests I received day before yesterday.
>
> Re: authors who weren't in the text -- Kara had the right idea; they were
> minute citation refs in the notes section and the au's request was along
> the
> lines of "professional courtesy" (probable translation: I'll mention your
> name in my index so you will mention mine in yours); so we compromised.
> She
> provided the page/note numbers and I tracked down the actual text page to
> which the note referred. This yielded a number of entries in the
> following
> style:
>
> Doe, John, 234n. 10(150)
>
> and an addition to the headnote explaining that the number in parentheses
> referred to the page on which the actual quote appeared.
>
> As to the Experience, 144-45 entry, au suggested following version:
>
> "Experience, double sense of, 144-45." Client pays bill; client gets
> entry!
>
> Finally, upon hearing my au's requested "Experience, 144-45" entry and my
> suggested tongue-in-cheek version, "Experience, 1-210 passim", My
> brother
> (the writer who writes his own indexes) passed this "legend" along to me:
>
> > There
> >was a monster book on child care, 1422 pages long, that came out a
> >number of years ago (I think in the fifties). Nestled in the index
> >someplace between "babies" and "bottles" was "birds, for the, pp.
> >1-1422." I'm told this is a true story.
>
> And another brother contributed this:
>
> >Our neighbor across the street works in the medical school here as a
> grant
> >writer, and one of the doctors she works with brought to her a textbook
> on
> >gynecology, I think, written by a guy in Texas who is evidently one of
> the
> >most knowledgable people in the field, and has the ego to prove it. In
> >fact, he evidently has a reputation around medical schools as being a
> >first class SOB, espcially concerning women. So Maggie's friend had
> >occasion to look up some disease that starts with the letters "ch", and
> >discovered "Chauvinism, male. 1-568." A little more research revealed
> >that this index entry only showed up around the 3rd edition, and
> >mysteriously and quietly disappeared in the 5th or 6th.
> >
> >Now I haven't seen this with my OWN eyes, but, well, I think it's true...
> >
>
>
> On to the next index!
>
> Lillian Ashworth
> ashworth@pullman.com
>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BEF018.CC905066
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<TITLE>RE: Authors! + Urban legends & indexing</TITLE>
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman">The book on child =
care is by Nelson, published by W.B. Saunders. The entry appeared =
in the first edition, and the indexer was his daughter. It has =
been carried since in tribute to Dr. Nelson. Dot =
DiRienzi</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">----------</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">From:</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">Lillian Ashworth</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">Reply To:</FONT></B> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">Indexer's =
Discussion Group</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">Sent:</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:49 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">To:</FONT></B> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Geneva">Subject:</FONT></B> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Geneva">Authors! + Urban legends & indexing</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Hi all-</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Many thanks for all of your =
humorous suggestions and comments regarding the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">author requests I received day =
before yesterday.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Re: authors who weren't in the =
text -- Kara had the right idea; they were</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">minute citation refs in the =
notes section and the au's request was along the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">lines of "professional =
courtesy" (probable translation: I'll mention your</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">name in my index so you will =
mention mine in yours); so we compromised. She</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">provided the page/note numbers =
and I tracked down the actual text page to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">which the note referred. =
This yielded a number of entries in the following</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">style:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Doe, John, 234n. 10(150)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">and an addition to the headnote =
explaining that the number in parentheses</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">referred to the page on which =
the actual quote appeared.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">As to the Experience, 144-45 =
entry, au suggested following version:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">"Experience, double sense =
of, 144-45." Client pays bill; client gets entry!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Finally, upon hearing my au's =
requested "Experience, 144-45" entry and my</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">suggested =
tongue-in-cheek version, "Experience, 1-210 passim", My =
brother</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">(the writer who writes his own =
indexes) passed this "legend" along to me:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">> There</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>was a monster book on child =
care, 1422 pages long, that came out a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>number of years ago (I =
think in the fifties). Nestled in the index</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>someplace between =
"babies" and "bottles" was "birds, for the, =
pp.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>1-1422." I'm told this =
is a true story.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">And another brother contributed =
this:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>Our neighbor across the =
street works in the medical school here as a grant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>writer, and one of the =
doctors she works with brought to her a textbook on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>gynecology, I think, =
written by a guy in Texas who is evidently one of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>most knowledgable people in =
the field, and has the ego to prove it. In</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>fact, he evidently has a =
reputation around medical schools as being a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>first class SOB, espcially =
concerning women. So Maggie's friend had</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>occasion to look up some =
disease that starts with the letters "ch", and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>discovered =
"Chauvinism, male. 1-568." A little more research =
revealed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>that this index entry only =
showed up around the 3rd edition, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>mysteriously and quietly =
disappeared in the 5th or 6th.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">>Now I haven't seen this =
with my OWN eyes, but, well, I think it's true...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">On to the next index!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Lillian Ashworth</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ashworth@pullman.com</FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BEF018.CC905066--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:55:13 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Tree Bressen <tree@IC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Authors! + Urban legends & indexing
In-Reply-To: <199908262149.OAA26920@whale.fsr.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi folks,
I'm a recent lurker on the list. I'm finding it very helpful, and would
like to thank everyone who helps make it happen. Here's an item forwarded
to me some months ago; perhaps there's a relation to the Texas gynecologist?
"...right after my residency, I found the following listing in the index of
the 1980 edition of the venerable textbook _Williams Obstetrics_:
'Chauvinism, male, variable amounts of, pages 1-1102' - the length of the
entire book. What editor or indexer had inserted this entry in anonymous
protest? We will probably never know."
Cheers,
--Tree Bressen
------------------------------------------------------
Tree Bressen
2244 Alder St.
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 343-5023
tree@ic.org
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:36:10 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Locatelli@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Sending Updated resumes to clients
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'd phrase it that I was calling because I have some indexing time available
in the next week, or the next month, or whatever, and wanted to inquire
whether they had any projects for which they were looking for an indexer.
It gives you a chance to remind them of your existence without seeming to be
whining or pestering.
Fred Leise
Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services
In a message dated 99-08-25 21:26:24 EDT, ramindexing@hotmail.com writes:
> 2....Should I call those editors to remind them that I am still in
> business
> and very much alive? :-)
>
> Any helpful ideas would be greatly appreciated.
>
> MANJIT K. SAHAI
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:18:59 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Kim Schroeder <kschroed@MAIL.MSEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cognitive linguistics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yes! That is a mind expanding book! I have read it and it has tied
together a lot of random observances I had made over the years!
I have been recommending it all over!
Kim Schroeder
Archive Impact
www.archiveimpact.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Brown <lastword@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Cognitive linguistics
>On 8/26/1999 5:01 PM Julie Shawvan wrote (in part):
>
>>A suitable book for the general reader is _The Language Instinct_ by
Steven
>>Pinker. It's 5 years old. I haven't read it yet, but Pinker is at MIT,
which
>>is a hotbed of cognitive science.
>
>I have read it. It's controversial, provocative, and a really good read.
>
>Craig Brown
>
>
>
>The Last Word
>Indexing Services
>(314) 352-9094
>lastword@mindspring.com
>lastword@i1.net
>www.i1.net/~lastword
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:18:14 +0100
Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "J.R. Sampson" <jsampson@INDEXES.U-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: Cognitive linguistics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.10.9908261501200.64784-100000@dante28.u.washington.edu>
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Hello -
Thanks for the refs to Steven Pinker. Will his books enable me to
make some sense of writings in these subjects? E.g. what are
assumption grammars, connectionism, factorial death etc. (unless
writers make up these terms as they go along)? Perhaps I need a
glossary or dictionary.
Regards
_John Sampson_
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:51:16 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" <ibap@CRYSTALSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors! + Urban legends & indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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OK, how about stuff in the body, not just the index? One multi-chapter,
multi-author book that I indexed included the statement "We are still
clueless with regard to..."
I pointed this out to the production editor (along with typos and so
forth as requested) but with the note that I liked it and hoped it would
stay in, but did they know this was there?
Iris
Lillian Ashworth wrote:
>
> Hi all-
>
> Many thanks for all of your humorous suggestions and comments regarding the
> author requests I received day before yesterday.
>
> Re: authors who weren't in the text -- Kara had the right idea; they were
> minute citation refs in the notes section and the au's request was along the
> lines of "professional courtesy" (probable translation: I'll mention your
> name in my index so you will mention mine in yours); so we compromised. She
> provided the page/note numbers and I tracked down the actual text page to
> which the note referred. This yielded a number of entries in the following
> style:
>
> Doe, John, 234n. 10(150)
>
> and an addition to the headnote explaining that the number in parentheses
> referred to the page on which the actual quote appeared.
>
> As to the Experience, 144-45 entry, au suggested following version:
>
> "Experience, double sense of, 144-45." Client pays bill; client gets entry!
>
> Finally, upon hearing my au's requested "Experience, 144-45" entry and my
> suggested tongue-in-cheek version, "Experience, 1-210 passim", My brother
> (the writer who writes his own indexes) passed this "legend" along to me:
>
> > There
> >was a monster book on child care, 1422 pages long, that came out a
> >number of years ago (I think in the fifties). Nestled in the index
> >someplace between "babies" and "bottles" was "birds, for the, pp.
> >1-1422." I'm told this is a true story.
>
> And another brother contributed this:
>
> >Our neighbor across the street works in the medical school here as a grant
> >writer, and one of the doctors she works with brought to her a textbook on
> >gynecology, I think, written by a guy in Texas who is evidently one of the
> >most knowledgable people in the field, and has the ego to prove it. In
> >fact, he evidently has a reputation around medical schools as being a
> >first class SOB, espcially concerning women. So Maggie's friend had
> >occasion to look up some disease that starts with the letters "ch", and
> >discovered "Chauvinism, male. 1-568." A little more research revealed
> >that this index entry only showed up around the 3rd edition, and
> >mysteriously and quietly disappeared in the 5th or 6th.
> >
> >Now I haven't seen this with my OWN eyes, but, well, I think it's true...
> >
>
> On to the next index!
>
> Lillian Ashworth
> ashworth@pullman.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:45:17 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charlotte Skuster <skuster@BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Organization: Binghamton University
Subject: Opportunity (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Please reply to Larry Lesser llesser@fmm.org
Do not reply to Index-l
>
> >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:24:28 -0700
> >From: "Larry Lesser" <llesser@mff.org>
> >Organization: Milken Family Foundation
> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
> >X-Accept-Language: en
> >To: info@asindexing.org
> >Subject: Indexer
> >
> >I am looking for someone to index transcripts of video interviews with
> >composers and performers. The subject is American Jewish Music.
> >
> >Please contact;
> >Lawrence Lesser
> >Milken Family Foundation
> >1250 Fourth Street 4th Floor
> >Santa Monica, Ca.90401
> >
> >Phone - 310 - 998 - 3052
> >
> >Thank You
> >
--
Charlotte Skuster
Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer
Binghamton University Science Library
P. O. Box 6012
Binghamton, NY 13902-6012
Phone: (607) 777-4122
Fax: (607) 777-2274
skuster@binghamton.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:56:16 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Elliot Linzer <elinzer@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Authors! + Urban legends & indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lilian Ashworth mentioned two of the "urban legends" of indexing:
(1) the index entry "birds, for the, 1-1,422" and (2) "Chauvinism, male,
1-568."
I have never seen either with my own eyes, but I've been an indexer for
30 years and I remember hearing both of these stories back near the
beginning of my career.
I have a couple more to add:
As many of you may recall, there has been a friendly and sometimes
less-than- friendly rivalry between William F. Buckley and Norman Mailer
going on for many decades. In the index to one of Buckley's books, under
"Mailer, Norman" are no page references, just this message" "Hi Norm."
Obviously Buckley expected Mailer to pick the book up off a rack in a
bookstore and immediately look for references to himself in the index.
Back when I worked in-house, as an indexer on an unnamed encyclopedia, I
was able to insert names of my friends into the index. I usually used a
page reference the page where the article on "Hoaxes" appeared.
There are probably many more stories that all us old-timers can share.
| Elliot Linzer
| 43-05 Crommelin Street
| Flushing, New York 11355
| (718) 353-1261
| elinzer@juno.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:18:22 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject: A Note on Authors, Topic Lists and Interpretive Indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
All -
Do Mi's compelling story about intransigent authors and esoteric topic lists,
plus your thoughtful responses, have brought, if not a breath of fresh air,
at least a very interesting alternative for those of us on the East Coast to
obsessing about the relentless march of tropical disturbances across the
Atlantic.
In a way this thread has been peculiarly comforting. Like most people who
sail along happily until their sled runners hit a gravel patch, I thought
that things like that happened only to me! It is reassuring to know that
this kind of angst happens to others, even to tenured indexing icons such as
Do Mi.
But a few thoughts occurred to me that I would like to offer for your
consideration and responses. They have to do with the fundamental
relationship between indexers and the text, and the limits to what I might
call "interpretive indexing."
I am not speaking to the question of working with authors, or the rewards and
frustrations attendant thereto. In my experience working with authors has
been very satisfying, although this always has been in the context of final
review and tweaking, not with joint authorship of the index. Nor am I
speaking to the matter of having to deal with lists of favorite topics that
authors want to see in the index. Such lists could be helpful, especially if
the indexer is not thoroughly familiar with the subject of the text. I also
am not addressing the question of what effect collaborative indexing might
have on one's workload, schedule, and net rate of pay.
I am speaking only to two issues: First, an author or editor coming back
after the fact and complaining that an index that an experienced indexer
believes to be accurate and adequate is incomplete because certain cherished
names or concepts are missing, even though in the indexer's view they are
inappropriate or are not clearly stated in the text. And, second, an author
(or editor) claiming that an indexer has introduced unacceptable subjective
interpretations.
In a posting some years ago I noted that most indexers rarely get any
constructive feedback from either editors or authors. Indexes are sent out
to that great back-of-the-book void in the sky, and we assume that if we get
follow-on work the previous index must have been satisfactory. Even worse, we
sometimes find out long after the fact that the author took serious issue
with the index, but nobody ever mentioned it even though corrections would
have been simple and virtually effortless. I personally find it infuriating
when an author simply spins on his heel and stalks off in a snit, without
extending the basic courtesy of discussing the index, suggesting a change, or
- - dare we hope - - asking why such and such an entry was not made or was
structured in a certain way. I certainly am too old and too experienced to
have just discovered injustice, but the degree of detached cool that allows
one to shrug it off still eludes me...
So even though author cooperation sometimes can become author intrusion, to
paraphrase Mae West: "It might be better to be looked over than to be
overlooked."
A thread some time ago (a year? longer?) generated much heat, some light,
and great anxiety regarding the [in]appropriateness of using terms that
introduced judgmental or interpretive elements into an index. Much was made
of avoiding terms that might be seen as reflecting the indexer's individual
point of view. Also, some terms were dismissed by the more PC-aware
respondents as introducing "racist/sexist bias" . Of course yesterday's
acceptable term is today's anathema, and this leads to some rather awkward
syntactical twisting as sensitive indexers attempt to devise structures that
accurately reflect the context of the text and yet avoid offending/outraging
those readers who embrace the latest nuances of impeccable correctness. For
example, the recent threadlet on "Creationism".
But beyond all the shrill cries and beating of wings over PC, the more basic
question raised (or at least implied) was whether or not an indexer could
properly introduce ANY conceptual or judgmental headings or modifiers not
clearly reflected in the text, or use abusive or demeaning terms that do
appear in the text. And where might lie the fuzzy boundaries between
accuracy, propriety, comprehensive conceptual indexing, and the intrusion of
unacceptable terms or interpretations?
In a sense this issue is analogous to the dilemma faced by the US Supreme
Court in the endless struggle between those who would interpret the
Constitution in the context of current needs and those who see themselves as
strict constructionists. This is not a conflict between good and evil
(despite the partisan polemics); it is a clash of conscience between opposing
views, honestly held, on what constitutes Right Thinking and Correct Action.
In the indexing world the issue seems to be whether, and to what degree, the
indexer can interpret the intent as well as the letter of the text. Strict
constructionists would say: "If it isn't in the text you can't introduce it
into the index; if it is in the text you can't change or omit it simply
because it is distasteful. Also, the indexer has no right to interpret the
text. Regardless of whether the inferences drawn are correct or incorrect,
interpretation is inappropriate and beyond the indexer's purview."
But interpretive indexers would disagree, saying: "It is the indexers
responsibility to guide the reader, and interpretive entries will lead the
reader to see relationships and constructs that otherwise might be
overlooked." This is the classic argument for the tutorial index.
I am not speaking here of bringing together, under one heading, scattered
textual elements that are explicitly stated, but, rather, of drawing
interpretive or judgmental inferences and then making index entries for them.
Is it to be, as in the old Dragnet TV shows, "Only the facts, ma'am," or do
we devise index entries that reflect not only the literal text, but also our
interpretation of the meaning of the text? Is [clarifying] interpretation
reasonably and properly within our charter? By limiting ourselves to
bare-bones, strictly objective, indexing are we displaying a commendable
professional detachment, or are we wimping out? By interpreting, even most
circumspectly and carefully, are we intruding on the author's trurf?
Now I should say, up front, that I am a technical indexer. Thank God for
those noncontroversial engineering and computer texts! I am profoundly
grateful that I don't have to deal with the conceptual difficulties of
devising rational indexes for revisionist history, neoconstructionist
philosophy, theology, sociology and sexual politics (although I do index
books on naval and military history). In my view, a bad day with four-stroke
diesel engines is better than a good day with Naom Chomsky - - but each to
his own taste, as the farmer said when he kissed the cow...
Obviously, in many cases some interpretive entries are necessary. For
example, biographies or histories in which strings of events or persons might
need to be subsumed under descriptive main headings. But interpretive
indexing, no matter how necessary, or how carefully (even sensitively)
phrased and well-intentioned, can be risky.
The first point of possible contention, obviously, are the PC issues alluded
to earlier. Interpretive entries could offend the author or expose her to
controversy if some reader(s) took umbrage at the flavor of the headings.
Second, the indexer's interpretation might be incorrect. If the text were
less than luminously clear and unambiguous, the indexer could misunderstand
the author's intention and introduce a serious conceptual bias into the
index. And, finally, skirting the issue by avoiding possibly controversial
entries could leave the indexer vulnerable to the accusations of
incompleteness mentioned in previous postings.
It is a most difficult line to thread and, it seems to me, places the indexer
in a situation where she can be damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.
As Gilbert observed to Sullivan: "An academic indexer's lot is not a happy
one!"
But even more fundamental is the question of the indexer's role as contrasted
with that of the [content] editor. All of us have slogged through swamps of
turgid text. And we wondered if the proofs ever had seen an intelligent
editor's hand. Or any editor's hand.
Writing a meticulous index to a fragmented and incoherent text is analogous
to doing a perfect paint job on a termite-infested house. But that, although
immensely distressing, seems largely beside the point. We are indexers, not
back-door editors or the Orkin Man, and indexing is what we must do.
And yet we also have that nagging sense (is it professional conscience?) that
impels us to struggle to bring order out of chaos, to guide the reader
through those thickets of tangled prose.
Where to draw the line? What muse, or demon, guides us when we long - - even
lust - - to introduce that perfect term, the brilliantly clarifying adjective
that we believe captures the flavor and intention of the text! Ah! How
sweet it would be to include entries like "Tosterone, Tess, tawdry
peccadillos of."
Sometimes we have to reach, not for the Emergency Chocolate, but for the
Maalox...
Your thoughts, please!
Bob Richardson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:46:19 -0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: A Note on Authors, Topic Lists and Interpretive Indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear Bob,
You have brought up some of the interesting (as well as frustrating) issues
in our esteemed profession.
It's so wonderful to "share" our experiences through this discussion list.
98% of my indexing experiences are just wonderful but Bob has hit on the 2%
that makes me want to scream upon occasion. Since misery loves company I
just have to say to Bob, thank you, thank you, thank you for putting a smile
on my face this morning.
Best,
Sylvia Coates
P.S. I just want to mention that I work with authors on a regular basis and
the vast majority of them are just wonderful!
-----Original Message-----
From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM <ROBJRICH@AOL.COM>
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 4:31 PM
Subject: A Note on Authors, Topic Lists and Interpretive Indexing
>All -
>
>Do Mi's compelling story about intransigent authors and esoteric topic
lists,
>plus your thoughtful responses, have brought, if not a breath of fresh air,
>at least a very interesting alternative for those of us on the East Coast
to
>obsessing about the relentless march of tropical disturbances across the
>Atlantic.
>
>In a way this thread has been peculiarly comforting. Like most people who
>sail along happily until their sled runners hit a gravel patch, I thought
>that things like that happened only to me! It is reassuring to know that
>this kind of angst happens to others, even to tenured indexing icons such
as
>Do Mi.
>
>But a few thoughts occurred to me that I would like to offer for your
>consideration and responses. They have to do with the fundamental
>relationship between indexers and the text, and the limits to what I might
>call "interpretive indexing."
>
>I am not speaking to the question of working with authors, or the rewards
and
>frustrations attendant thereto. In my experience working with authors has
>been very satisfying, although this always has been in the context of final
>review and tweaking, not with joint authorship of the index. Nor am I
>speaking to the matter of having to deal with lists of favorite topics that
>authors want to see in the index. Such lists could be helpful, especially
if
>the indexer is not thoroughly familiar with the subject of the text. I
also
>am not addressing the question of what effect collaborative indexing might
>have on one's workload, schedule, and net rate of pay.
>
>I am speaking only to two issues: First, an author or editor coming back
>after the fact and complaining that an index that an experienced indexer
>believes to be accurate and adequate is incomplete because certain
cherished
>names or concepts are missing, even though in the indexer's view they are
>inappropriate or are not clearly stated in the text. And, second, an author
>(or editor) claiming that an indexer has introduced unacceptable subjective
>interpretations.
>
>In a posting some years ago I noted that most indexers rarely get any
>constructive feedback from either editors or authors. Indexes are sent out
>to that great back-of-the-book void in the sky, and we assume that if we
get
>follow-on work the previous index must have been satisfactory. Even worse,
we
>sometimes find out long after the fact that the author took serious issue
>with the index, but nobody ever mentioned it even though corrections would
>have been simple and virtually effortless. I personally find it infuriating
>when an author simply spins on his heel and stalks off in a snit, without
>extending the basic courtesy of discussing the index, suggesting a change,
or
>- - dare we hope - - asking why such and such an entry was not made or was
>structured in a certain way. I certainly am too old and too experienced to
>have just discovered injustice, but the degree of detached cool that allows
>one to shrug it off still eludes me...
>
>So even though author cooperation sometimes can become author intrusion, to
>paraphrase Mae West: "It might be better to be looked over than to be
>overlooked."
>
>A thread some time ago (a year? longer?) generated much heat, some light,
>and great anxiety regarding the [in]appropriateness of using terms that
>introduced judgmental or interpretive elements into an index. Much was
made
>of avoiding terms that might be seen as reflecting the indexer's individual
>point of view. Also, some terms were dismissed by the more PC-aware
>respondents as introducing "racist/sexist bias" . Of course yesterday's
>acceptable term is today's anathema, and this leads to some rather awkward
>syntactical twisting as sensitive indexers attempt to devise structures
that
>accurately reflect the context of the text and yet avoid
offending/outraging
>those readers who embrace the latest nuances of impeccable correctness.
For
>example, the recent threadlet on "Creationism".
>
>But beyond all the shrill cries and beating of wings over PC, the more
basic
>question raised (or at least implied) was whether or not an indexer could
>properly introduce ANY conceptual or judgmental headings or modifiers not
>clearly reflected in the text, or use abusive or demeaning terms that do
>appear in the text. And where might lie the fuzzy boundaries between
>accuracy, propriety, comprehensive conceptual indexing, and the intrusion
of
>unacceptable terms or interpretations?
>
>In a sense this issue is analogous to the dilemma faced by the US Supreme
>Court in the endless struggle between those who would interpret the
>Constitution in the context of current needs and those who see themselves
as
>strict constructionists. This is not a conflict between good and evil
>(despite the partisan polemics); it is a clash of conscience between
opposing
>views, honestly held, on what constitutes Right Thinking and Correct
Action.
>
>In the indexing world the issue seems to be whether, and to what degree,
the
>indexer can interpret the intent as well as the letter of the text. Strict
>constructionists would say: "If it isn't in the text you can't introduce it
>into the index; if it is in the text you can't change or omit it simply
>because it is distasteful. Also, the indexer has no right to interpret the
>text. Regardless of whether the inferences drawn are correct or incorrect,
>interpretation is inappropriate and beyond the indexer's purview."
>
>But interpretive indexers would disagree, saying: "It is the indexers
>responsibility to guide the reader, and interpretive entries will lead the
>reader to see relationships and constructs that otherwise might be
>overlooked." This is the classic argument for the tutorial index.
>
>I am not speaking here of bringing together, under one heading, scattered
>textual elements that are explicitly stated, but, rather, of drawing
>interpretive or judgmental inferences and then making index entries for
them.
> Is it to be, as in the old Dragnet TV shows, "Only the facts, ma'am," or
do
>we devise index entries that reflect not only the literal text, but also
our
>interpretation of the meaning of the text? Is [clarifying] interpretation
>reasonably and properly within our charter? By limiting ourselves to
>bare-bones, strictly objective, indexing are we displaying a commendable
>professional detachment, or are we wimping out? By interpreting, even most
>circumspectly and carefully, are we intruding on the author's trurf?
>
>Now I should say, up front, that I am a technical indexer. Thank God for
>those noncontroversial engineering and computer texts! I am profoundly
>grateful that I don't have to deal with the conceptual difficulties of
>devising rational indexes for revisionist history, neoconstructionist
>philosophy, theology, sociology and sexual politics (although I do index
>books on naval and military history). In my view, a bad day with
four-stroke
>diesel engines is better than a good day with Naom Chomsky - - but each to
>his own taste, as the farmer said when he kissed the cow...
>
>Obviously, in many cases some interpretive entries are necessary. For
>example, biographies or histories in which strings of events or persons
might
>need to be subsumed under descriptive main headings. But interpretive
>indexing, no matter how necessary, or how carefully (even sensitively)
>phrased and well-intentioned, can be risky.
>
>The first point of possible contention, obviously, are the PC issues
alluded
>to earlier. Interpretive entries could offend the author or expose her to
>controversy if some reader(s) took umbrage at the flavor of the headings.
>Second, the indexer's interpretation might be incorrect. If the text were
>less than luminously clear and unambiguous, the indexer could misunderstand
>the author's intention and introduce a serious conceptual bias into the
>index. And, finally, skirting the issue by avoiding possibly controversial
>entries could leave the indexer vulnerable to the accusations of
>incompleteness mentioned in previous postings.
>
>It is a most difficult line to thread and, it seems to me, places the
indexer
>in a situation where she can be damned if she does and damned if she
doesn't.
> As Gilbert observed to Sullivan: "An academic indexer's lot is not a happy
>one!"
>
>But even more fundamental is the question of the indexer's role as
contrasted
>with that of the [content] editor. All of us have slogged through swamps
of
>turgid text. And we wondered if the proofs ever had seen an intelligent
>editor's hand. Or any editor's hand.
>
>Writing a meticulous index to a fragmented and incoherent text is analogous
>to doing a perfect paint job on a termite-infested house. But that,
although
>immensely distressing, seems largely beside the point. We are indexers,
not
>back-door editors or the Orkin Man, and indexing is what we must do.
>
>And yet we also have that nagging sense (is it professional conscience?)
that
>impels us to struggle to bring order out of chaos, to guide the reader
>through those thickets of tangled prose.
>
>Where to draw the line? What muse, or demon, guides us when we long - -
even
>lust - - to introduce that perfect term, the brilliantly clarifying
adjective
>that we believe captures the flavor and intention of the text! Ah! How
>sweet it would be to include entries like "Tosterone, Tess, tawdry
>peccadillos of."
>
>Sometimes we have to reach, not for the Emergency Chocolate, but for the
>Maalox...
>
>Your thoughts, please!
>
>Bob Richardson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:18:06 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Interpretive Indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006E_01BEF08E.99AE1EA0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BEF08E.99AE1EA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Bob,=20
=20
You wrote, "Your thoughts, please."
=20
I enjoyed every word you wrote, understood some, wondered at much, and =
thank you profusely for the inspiration and encouragement your words =
brought to my heart. Reading it helped clarify some confusion, but =
mostly it just anchored me again with knowing there is this other aspect =
to indexing.
Not just grunt work, but real thinking and caring and conscience.
=20
The sufferings of a newbie cannot be described fully enough to convey =
how deep and painful they are when she wants to be the kind of indexer =
who can think (about) such thoughts as those you wrote today.
=20
My basic needs (equated to Maslow's first rung of the ladder!) at this =
point are dealing with issues such as what should I charge, do I have =
time to meet their deadline, will the editor fragment my index =
mercilessly, does this publisher want endashes or hyphens in page =
ranges, and the biggee - just index it and don't try to be caring, =
conscientious, creative and cognitive - just meet that ever-lurking =
deadline and hope for the best.
=20
In my life before indexing (L.B.I.), I was able to have time to think. =
Learning the software, learning the basics of indexing, learning the =
editorial field of publishing, learning so much in so little time has =
robbed me of this most precious of elements in my life, time to think =
and understand. I am just piling it into my brain so I can function as =
an indexer. =20
=20
Your writing has refreshed my hope that some day I will be myself once =
again and will be able to think and to wrestle with the issues you =
raise. In the meantime, it is associates (dare I claim this?)
who keep the fragmented, exhausted, overwhelmed newbies anchored to a =
firm hope=20
that some day we will be human again and not just machines.
=20
In gratitude, Ardith Ayotte, R.T.
ABBA Index Services
------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BEF08E.99AE1EA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dear Bob, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>You wrote, "Your thoughts,=20
please."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I enjoyed every word you wrote, =
understood some,=20
wondered at much, and thank you profusely for the inspiration and =
encouragement=20
your words brought to my heart. Reading it helped clarify some =
confusion,=20
but mostly it just anchored me again with knowing there is this other =
aspect to=20
indexing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Not just grunt =
work, but=20
real thinking and caring and conscience.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The sufferings of a newbie cannot be =
</FONT><FONT size=3D2>described fully enough to convey how deep and =
painful they=20
are when she wants to be the kind of indexer who can think (about) such =
thoughts=20
as those you wrote today.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My basic needs (equated to Maslow's =
first rung=20
of the ladder!) at this point are dealing with issues such as what =
should I=20
charge, do I have time to meet their deadline, will the editor fragment =
my index=20
mercilessly, does this publisher want endashes or hyphens in page =
ranges, and=20
the <STRONG>biggee </STRONG>- just index it and don't try to be caring,=20
conscientious, creative and cognitive - just meet that ever-lurking =
deadline and=20
hope for the best.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>In my life before indexing (L.B.I.), =
I was able=20
to have time to think. Learning the software, learning the basics =
of=20
indexing, learning the editorial field of publishing, learning so much =
in so=20
little time has <STRONG>robbed </STRONG>me of this most precious of =
elements in=20
my life, time to think and understand. I am just piling it into my =
brain=20
so I can function as an indexer. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Your writing has <U>refreshed </U>my =
hope that=20
some day I will be myself once again and will be able to think and to =
wrestle=20
with the issues you raise. In the meantime, it is associates (dare =
I claim=20
this?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>who keep the fragmented, exhausted, =
overwhelmed=20
newbies anchored to a firm hope </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>that some day we will be human again =
and not=20
just machines.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>In gratitude, =
Ardith Ayotte,=20
R.T.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p; =20
ABBA Index Services</FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:15:45 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Indexing the headings with numbers - need quick help
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Dear Collective Wisdom,
The computer book I'm indexing is in two parts: Part 1 is a series of =
coding techniques numbered 1-160, Part II are examples of the =
techniques. I am indexing each technique as a main entry and also as a =
subheading under the categories that the author has used (example, =
avoiding memory leaks). The examples in Part II are simply lines of code =
containing comment lines referencing the technique numbers in Part I. Of =
course, I want to index the examples.
My questions are: should I include the technique numbers in parentheses =
everytime I make index entries for the techniques (with an note in the =
beginning of the index explaining what the numbers in parentheses mean) =
and/or should I list the techniques by number (how?) in the index so I =
can make the examples in Part II as subheadings? Any other suggestions.
Also, would you put page numbers next to the index entries saying =
"technique 1, technique 2..., since the techniques are in numeric order =
in the book.
Examples:
crashes, avoiding=20
initializing local variables (17), 14-15
initializing local variables (17), 14-15
technique 17 (initializing local variables)
example of, 202
technique 18 (blah blah)
example of, 230
Thanks and I hope this makes sense.
Nina Forrest
Looking Up Indexing Service
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dear Collective Wisdom,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The computer book I'm indexing is in =
two parts:=20
Part 1 is a series of coding techniques numbered 1-160, Part II are =
examples of=20
the techniques. I am indexing each technique as a main entry and also as =
a=20
subheading under the categories that the author has used (example, =
avoiding=20
memory leaks). The examples in Part II are simply lines of code =
containing=20
comment lines referencing the technique numbers in Part I. Of course, I =
want to=20
index the examples.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>My questions are: should I include the technique =
numbers in=20
parentheses everytime I make index entries for the techniques (with an =
note in=20
the beginning of the index explaining what the numbers in parentheses =
mean)=20
and/or should I list the techniques by number (how?) in the index so I =
can make=20
the examples in Part II as subheadings? Any other =
suggestions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also, would you put page numbers next to the index =
entries=20
saying "technique 1, technique 2..., since the techniques are in =
numeric=20
order in the book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Examples:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>crashes, =
avoiding=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2> <FONT=20
size=3D2>initializing local variables (17), 14-15</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>initializing =
local variables=20
(17), 14-15</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>technique 17 (initializing local =
variables)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2> example=20
of, 202</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>technique 18 (blah =
blah)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2> example=20
of, 230</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks and I hope this makes sense.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Nina Forrest</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Looking Up Indexing Service</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:28:49 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Charlotte Skuster <skuster@BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Organization: Binghamton University
Subject: Opportunity (fwd)---correction
MIME-Version: 1.0
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That should be llesser@mff.org NOT ...@fmm.org
Sorry about that...my brain and my fingers seem to be out of synch
lately.
Charlotte
>
> >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:24:28 -0700
> >From: "Larry Lesser" <llesser@mff.org>
> >Organization: Milken Family Foundation
> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
> >X-Accept-Language: en
> >To: info@asindexing.org
> >Subject: Indexer
> >
> >I am looking for someone to index transcripts of video interviews with
> >composers and performers. The subject is American Jewish Music.
> >
> >Please contact;
> >Lawrence Lesser
> >Milken Family Foundation
> >1250 Fourth Street 4th Floor
> >Santa Monica, Ca.90401
> >
> >Phone - 310 - 998 - 3052
> >
> >Thank You
> >
--
Charlotte Skuster
Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer
Binghamton University Science Library
P. O. Box 6012
Binghamton, NY 13902-6012
Phone: (607) 777-4122
Fax: (607) 777-2274
skuster@binghamton.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:09:26 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Patricia H. Gross" <phgross@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Interpretive Indexing
In-Reply-To: <dcfe91ec.24f8144e@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I have mixed feelings about "interpretive indexing." The Jesuit for whom I
just finished a big index had done his own index for his previous book, and
his only entry to church-related topics in the index he did was
ecclesiology
with a bunch of subentries as I remember. Now Ignatius of Loyola and the
other early Jesuits did not use that terminology, and neither does the text
that describes the early Jesuits, and my preference would have been to make
the entry fit the words used in the text, rather than use the modern
concept that we use to discuss those issues. I'm sure there are other
examples where I would go the other way, but I really remember having
strong feelings about this one.
I love this thread, because I think it helps us share ideas about how we
make choices when doing an index, and that will probably enable us to make
better choices (quicker??) in the future, maybe.
Patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:21:57 -0700
Reply-To: nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject: Re: A Note on Authors, Topic Lists and Interpretive Indexing
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I wish the issue was always one of interpretation vs. no
interpretation. I am increasingly coming to regard the issue
as one of more or less interpretation. Here the devil is often in the
details, i.e., the subentries. In many cases, I have found the
indexing process to be analogous to translation from one language
to another: English into Indexese. My constant concern is that
I write subentries that are informative, concise and reflect the
material. If the text is conceptually intricate, this process inevitably
involves interpretation. Choosing subentries is itself an interpretive
process whereby the indexer judges which material is important
enough to warrant subentries. Making this judgment depends on
interpreting what is important to the discussion, or at least what the
author deems important. Now, regarding Dragnet and indexing, I
distinctly remember an episode that went something like this:
dum-de-dum-dum.....
dum-de-dum-dum-DUM......
(Joe narrates: Friday the 27th. 4:30 pm. Went to the indexer's
house to deliver my autobiography.)
Indexer: Oh, thank you, Mr. Friday. I'll get right on it.
Friday: Thank you, Ma'am.
Indexer: Hmmmmm It isn't very long, so I should finish pretty fast.
Friday: Thank you, Ma'am.
Indexer: Now, you have many format options, Mr. Friday.
Friday: Ma'am?
Indexer: Well, I can do it either run-in or indented style. You know.
The subentries. Depending on how many there are. Indented
is easier to read, so I really like it better. But run-in
takes up more
space and if space is a consideration for you.........
Friday: Just a concordance, Ma'am.
Indexer: Oh, dear. Well, that will take me a while. Very time-consuming.
Friday: Yes, Ma'am.
Indexer: I'll get right on it.
Friday: Thank you, Ma'am.
(Scene: front seat of squad car)
Gannon: Joe?
Friday: Yeah, Bill.
Gannan: I thought a concordance was what my wife and I finally
reached during our divorce.
Friday: No, Bill, it isn't.
Gannon: TGIF, Joe.
Friday: Right, Bill.
>
>In the indexing world the issue seems to be whether, and to what degree,
the
>indexer can interpret the intent as well as the letter of the text. Strict
>constructionists would say: "If it isn't in the text you can't introduce it
>into the index; if it is in the text you can't change or omit it simply
>because it is distasteful. Also, the indexer has no right to interpret the
>text. Regardless of whether the inferences drawn are correct or incorrect,
>interpretation is inappropriate and beyond the indexer's purview."
>
>But interpretive indexers would disagree, saying: "It is the indexers
>responsibility to guide the reader, and interpretive entries will lead the
>reader to see relationships and constructs that otherwise might be
>overlooked." This is the classic argument for the tutorial index.
>
>I am not speaking here of bringing together, under one heading, scattered
>textual elements that are explicitly stated, but, rather, of drawing
>interpretive or judgmental inferences and then making index entries for
them.
> Is it to be, as in the old Dragnet TV shows, "Only the facts, ma'am," or
do
>we devise index entries that reflect not only the literal text, but also
our
>interpretation of the meaning of the text? Is [clarifying] interpretation
>reasonably and properly within our charter? By limiting ourselves to
>bare-bones, strictly objective, indexing are we displaying a commendable
>professional detachment, or are we wimping out? By interpreting, even most
>circumspectly and carefully, are we intruding on the author's trurf?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:43:28 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Dragnet and Indexing
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Nick -
Off-the-wall synergism strikes again! We might, as the Brits say, be
barking mad, but THAT is funny!! Need a line in there in which Joe says:
"No interpretation, Ma'am. Just the facts."
Glad I didn't make reference to The Twilight Zone!
Bob
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nick Koenig wrote:
>Now, regarding Dragnet and indexing, I distinctly remember an episode that
went something like this:
dum-de-dum-dum.....
dum-de-dum-dum-DUM......
Joe narrates: Friday the 27th. 4:30 pm. Went to the indexer's house to
deliver my autobiography.
Indexer: Oh, thank you, Mr. Friday. I'll get right on it.
Friday: Thank you, Ma'am.
Indexer: Hmmmmm It isn't very long, so I should finish pretty fast.
Friday: Thank you, Ma'am.
Indexer: Now, you have many format options, Mr. Friday.
Friday: Ma'am?
Indexer: Well, I can do it either run-in or indented style. You know.
The subentries. Depending on how many there are. Indented
is easier to read, so I really like it better. But run-in
takes up more
space and if space is a consideration for you.........
Friday: Just a concordance, Ma'am.
Indexer: Oh, dear. Well, that will take me a while. Very time-consuming.
Friday: Yes, Ma'am.
Indexer: I'll get right on it.
Friday: Thank you, Ma'am.
(Scene: front seat of squad car)
Gannon: Joe?
Friday: Yeah, Bill.
Gannan: I thought a concordance was what my wife and I finally
reached during our divorce.
Friday: No, Bill, it isn't.
Gannon: TGIF, Joe.
Friday: Right, Bill.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:45:11 +0100
Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "J.R. Sampson" <jsampson@INDEXES.U-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: Interpretive Indexing
In-Reply-To: <000601bef10c$df2ca860$73310d3f@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> ........................................................ If the text is
> conceptually intricate, this process inevitably involves interpretation.
I would have thought this was very true, at least in some situations.
Perhaps the only *general* guideline is to be in sympathy with what
the makers of the book are doing - or to act as if one were.
Regards
_John Sampson_
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:03:41 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: interpretive indexing
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John made a good point when he wrote:
<< the only *general* guideline is to be in sympathy with what
the makers of the book are doing - or to act as if one were. >>
I feel that my primary role as an indexer is to provide entree to the text in
the book. In other words, not to make my own statements, but to guide the
reader/searcher to the information and opinions as written. To me the index
is a tool that is part of the package of the book. It is ancillary to the
main text, and associated with it.
That is not to say that the indexer's labors are not creative. I simply feel
that the indexer's role is *not* to create new ideas. Rather it is to
accurately guide the reader/searcher to what is already there, to reflect the
text.
In one of Bella Hass Weinberg's workshops many years ago there was a
theoretical discussion of the role of an index entry. The conclusion was
that index entries are meant to "indicate" rather than "inform". In other
words, the material in the text to which one is pointing does not have to be
interepreted or spelled, but rather just pointed to. I found this
thought-provoking, and perhaps it has some application to this discussion.
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:18:44 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lillian Ashworth <ashworth@PULLMAN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragnet and Indexing
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Bob writes -
<snip>
>
>Glad I didn't make reference to The Twilight Zone!
>
Don't you mean The Index Zone?
----
Serling: Little did Bob know this morning when he turned on his computer
that things would be different. For Bob was about to enter -- The Index
Zone . . . .
Fade in music: deedle deedle deedle deedle . . .
Lillian Ashworth
ashworth@pullman.com
Who really did have lunch with Rod Serling once.
______________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:25:30 -0700
Reply-To: nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Dragnet and Indexing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Well, Bob, I interpret Joe's line "Just a concordance, Ma'am"
as equivalent to "Just the facts, Ma'am." The indexer has just
described index formats with subentries, which will probably
be the result of interpretative activity. A concordance only
contains word statistics, i.e., the facts. But of course this is
a constructive deconstruction and destructive deconstructions
are also possible. Would those be deconstructive destructions?
NK
>Nick -
>
>Off-the-wall synergism strikes again! We might, as the Brits say, be
>barking mad, but THAT is funny!! Need a line in there in which Joe says:
>"No interpretation, Ma'am. Just the facts."
>
>Glad I didn't make reference to The Twilight Zone!
>
>Bob
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~