Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9904D" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:59:18 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: atypical indexing jobs (was: job opportunity) In-Reply-To: Brian, It sounds as if you worked in a corporate environment, but some of the work you did was for products that were sold outside (eg the CD-ROMs). Did you also do indexing of information that was purely internal such as company information? Glenda. > Glenda's message: > > This ad really interests me, as it seems to be a different sort of > employment environment for an indexer. I'd be interested to hear from > indexers who have done work in corporate environments or the like. > > > Information Services Opportunities > > Towers Perrin, an international human resources consulting firm > located in > Valhalla, NY has the following information services opportunity: > > INDEXER to classify the firm=92s intellectual capital and build and > > maintain the electronic thesaurus. Must have: 2+ yrs experience > > indexing/abstracting business materials, familiarity with on-line search > > methods, etc > > > Actually, this is fairly typical for in-house/corporate indexing. I > worked as a corporate indexer/abstractor for several years. We had an > on-line database we indexed, CD-ROM products and print indexes, and a > corporate name, proper name and subject thesaurus covering everything. > > I worked on a select group of journals, periodicals government reports > and monographs for a specific area (South Asia and the Middle East). The > diversity of material kept me from going crazy. > > For a while I worked in an office environment with supervisory duties, > etc. and later I worked from my home office sending my work in on disks > (this was pre-email). This was closest to what many free-lancers > experience. > > Currently, I work in a government environment where I maintain the index > for a database along with its thesaurus, as well as an annual back of > the book index. My current work is strictly legislation with the odd > index for in-house reports. > > The pros of the corporate environment are a set salary/benefits and, if > you're lucky, good people to work with. The cons are less freedom and > the possibility of working with some abrasive personalities (if not > sometimes hostile). Also in the corporate/government there are often > many duties outside of indexing. Often these organizations can't justify > full-time indexers so they lump it together with something else. In my > case this is Librarian. > > I have to say I like the corporate/government somewhat better than > working from home. > > Brian M. Peck > Technical Librarian/Indexer > North Carolina General Assembly > brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:40:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Maori names Thank you to Noeline and several others who sent me personal replies to these questions. The general consensus, based on the use of the New Zealand Dictionary of Biography and online catalogs in Australia, is that inversion of Maori names is the norm. Exceptions are some traditional names from before the 20th century. Also necessary is some knowledge of Maori versions of English= names:=20 Anaru =3D Andrew Aperahama =3D Abraham Eria =3D Elias or Elijah Hohepa =3D Joseph Matiaha =3D Matthias or Matthew Ropata/Rapata =3D Robert Wiremu =3D William (Wi is shortened version) Te is generally ignored in alphabetization in New Zealand, but the consensus was that since the book is going to be distributed internationally that I should follow current conventions and follow the author and LC's usage, where Te + name is the sequence in alphabetization. Thanks again to all of you.=20 Cynthia At 08:42 PM 4/21/99 -0300, Noeline Bridge wrote: >It's been a long time since I lived in New Zealand, and until a New Zealand >indexer kicks in on this query, I can give limited help. > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:43:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Maori names I don't know where all those funny numbers and so on are coming from in my last message but ignore them! Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Attics Full & Empty My husband calls the assorted junk which accumulates in one's brain "mind fodder." I think it may actually be more analogous to cud, myself... This morning, as I groggily hit the snooze alarm for the third time, I muttered, "Up, Kara. Get UP." As John rolled out of bed and headed down the hall, he started singing, "Up, up and away..." -- not the "in my beautiful balloon" version, but in the "...TWA" version. One minute later, having had at least twelve repetitions of the line reverberate silently in my head, I snarled, "Thanks a lot!" I will now be unable to get it out of my head for the rest of the day. Or week. Or month. (And apologies to those on whom I have just inflicted the same torture.) I agree with the person who wished there was some way to categorize the "brain clutter" and sweep away the useless. OTOH, the useless stuff is great for games like Trivial Pursuit and Jeopardy... One of the alternately fun and annoying things about indexing is the extent to which it contributes to one's knowledge, useless as well as useful. I've learned all sorts of things since I started indexing. Some I would, perhaps, rather not have known: details of the killing fields in Cambodia, for instance. Others have been fascinating; I'm gaining a better understanding of the modern world through the pol. sci. and modern history books I'm often assigned. Some information has actually been useful in my daily life: a book on alternative medicine taught me the proper way to take Echinacea for maximum benefit, and my daughter and I have tried several of the crafts from the children's activity books I've indexed. It's just this opportunity to be constantly learning and exploring new fields which drew me to indexing, and which keeps me captivated. I just hope I'm never assigned a book on advertising jingles... :-D Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:47:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: atypical indexing jobs (was: job opportunity) Glenda wrote "some of the work you did was for products that were sold outside (eg the CD-ROMs). Did you also do indexing of information that was purely internal such as company information?" No, not with that company. The work I am currently doing, indexing of legislation on an in-house system, could be seen as purely internal. Although currently available to the public, the system was designed for use by staff and for most of its existence used as such. I'm not sure that it makes that much difference, whether it is for internal use or public/commercial use. Someone else may have a better handle on this, but I can't see much of a distinction. The one thing I notice with the in-house database is that I get quicker, louder and a lot more complaints about my choice of descriptors. I will say that I haven't done in-house work for a corporation, just the government, so there may be some differences there. Brian Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:24:31 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Funny numbers in mail messages In-Reply-To: <924781776.2112332.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In article <924781776.2112332.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, on Thu, 22 Apr 1999 at 07:43:23, Cynthia Bertelsen writes >I don't know where all those funny numbers and so on are coming from in my >last message but ignore them! > >Cynthia They are shown because you sent your message using MIME-encoding, but the headers that tell your mail reader this have been stripped from your message. This may have been done by the mailing list software or by something else that handled your message en route. It should have the header MIME-Version: 1.0 and preferably also something like Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I wonder whether the list owner can configure anything to retain these headings. Messages are often displayed incorrectly if they are missing, especially those with multiple parts. Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 181 372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex, EN2 7BQ, UK Fax: +44 181 372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk --------------- --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:03:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate Dear "C.W." Regarding my per entry rate experience: I've been procrastinating posting this information for several reasons, all of which seem rather silly in retrospect, so here it is. Some of you may remember the per entry rate thread 3-4 months ago. I was quite astonished to discover the height of my own ignorance regarding per entry rate charges even though I've been indexing for over 10 years. Without even thinking about it "Dogs, Dalmatians, 3,7, 10, 32" was counted as 1 entry when most indexers who may or may not have been around the block a few times counted it as at least 4 entries. I also learned that my software tracks the number of entries using both methods which is a very nice utility - I'm certain that Cindex and Sky have the same capabilities. Well, then, I figured it was time to discuss this issue with my three clients who pay strictly a per entry rate. EACH ONE OF THEM reported that the above example would be counted as 1 entry by them and paid accordingly. Do others have this same experience or am I the only one upon whom the "per entry rate paying god" is frowning? There is also one other REALLY ANNOYING publisher in California (if anyone wants the name, I will share, off list) who not only pays an unbelievable $2.00 per page, but always wants a combined subject and cited author index. When approached with the query "Will you consider paying a very reasonable per entry rate for the cited author portion of the index?" their reply was the anticipated "No." I only take their work now when I have nothing else in the pipeline. Can anyone else relate to this? I would also like to thank this list for "raising my consciousness level" regarding pricing. I now make a concerted effort to take at least one entire day every two weeks or a half day every week to make marketing calls. I am convinced that a dedicated marketing effort is the key to getting rid of the publishers who, for one reason or another, make our lives miserable and replace them with better paying clients. Julie Grayson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:17:07 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate Julie, You wrote: << I am convinced that a dedicated marketing effort is the key to getting rid of the publishers who, for one reason or another, make our lives miserable and replace them with better paying clients >> YES! This is the key to it all. I continued to market long past the point when some would have thought I had enough clients. My strategy was to be able to pick the clients from whom I'd like to accept work, rather than be stuck with some I'd rather not have. It has worked, by and large, and I'm very happy with the clients I have now. The California publisher obviously has no problem getting people to work for them. Periodically they come back to me, saying they know the book is particularly difficult and I could do it, and they would like me, etc ..... but they will not pay more than their $2/page. I won't do it. As long as there are indexers who for one reason or other are willing to accept this rate for a combined subject/author index, they will continue to get away with paying it. As for the per entry rate .... my experience is same as yours. It counts for one entry. I will not work per entry if that's how they count entries, unless the rate is really high, which it usually isn't. Per page is where my rate structure is at. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:42:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate At 11:03 AM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >Dear "C.W." >Regarding my per entry rate experience: I've been procrastinating >posting this information for several reasons, all of which seem rather >silly in retrospect, so here it is. Some of you may remember the per >entry rate thread 3-4 months ago. I was quite astonished to discover >the height of my own ignorance regarding per entry rate charges even >though I've been indexing for over 10 years. Without even thinking >about it "Dogs, Dalmatians, 3,7, 10, 32" was counted as 1 entry when >most indexers who may or may not have been around the block a few >times counted it as at least 4 entries. I also learned that my >software tracks the number of entries using both methods which is a >very nice utility - I'm certain that Cindex and Sky have the same >capabilities. Well, then, I figured it was time to discuss this issue >with my three clients who pay strictly a per entry rate. EACH ONE OF >THEM reported that the above example would be counted as 1 entry by >them and paid accordingly. ... Charge megabux by the hour. Best way. MJB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:25:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: Cindex Question marriage: something, 5, 6, 11 Marriage, 16 To figure out why these two entries won't merge, I would do a search on the word so they both come up at once (Command+F, enter the word, then FIND ALL), and/or look at them in DRAFT VIEW. An unnecessary comma hand-entered after one and not the other will keep them separated, an extra space can do that too (although not usually at the end of an entry), inconsistent caps can do it, or hidden text that I've forgotten I've inserted can do it too. Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:10:05 EDT Reply-To: ROBJRICH@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indestructible Jingles and "The Demolished Man" All - Kara Pekar mentioned the fact that her husband's wake-up jingle ran 'round and 'round in her head, world without end. She then observed: "I just hope I'm never assigned a book on advertising jingles... :-D" I commend to her (and you) an outstanding sci-fi book named "The Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester. It perfectly illusrates Kara's point. It was written over 45 years ago (published 1951 by Galaxy, 1953 by Doubleday) and recently has been reissued in paperback. I read it then, and about a year ago I found a mint dust-jacketed hard-cover copy at an AAUW book sale! (The fact that this citation popped into my mind is another example of indestructible Cranial Attic trivia.) The story takes place in a society of telepaths. They don't always converse in words (naturally) but often play delightful word games in which they construct elaborate mental two-dimensional patterns and anagrams. (Their parties are a blast!) Well, an unknown somebody commits a murder (which is impossible in a society of telepaths) and the story concerns how the murderer is found. The relevance to Kara's point is that one of the characters tries to mask his thoughts by consulting a jingle-writer who runs an enterprise called Psych-Songs, Inc. She provides a bit of doggerel that goes 'round and 'round in his head and effectively blocks his thoughts from the other telepaths. The jingle in this story is "Tenser, said the Tensor. Tenser, said the Tensor. Tension,. apprehension and dissension have begun." BTW, in the title "The Demolished Man", "demolition" refers not to physical destruction, but to the total erasing and reprogramming of the convicted criminal's personality, so that his original persona is effectively "demolished". Scary concept. Totalitarian societies and cults try to do it all the time... Interesting story. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:50:38 EDT Reply-To: Pmauer@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: National Publishing Conference - Portland, OR Hi all, I've just received info about the National Book Industry Trade Show at the 1999 National Publishing Conference, Nov 6 - 9, 1999 at the DoubleTree Hotel, Jantzen Beach, Portland, OR. If anyone would like more info, you can visit the RMBPA (Rocky Mountain Book Publishers Assoc.) web site at www.rmbpa.com, or let me know and I can forward this brochure to you. It would be nice if someone from ASI could be there to promote ASI and professional indexers. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 http://www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG http://members.aol.com/Pmauer <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:44:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Indexing Full-time: How Long Did it Take? Hello, All. As an aspiring indexer, I have a question for you pros that I think many indexers might find interesting: How long, after you got your first indexing job, did it take you to become full-time (or something like full-time)? Did you work at other jobs before you went full-time? How much effort did you put into becoming full-time-a lot, or did it "just happen"? Thanks in advance. Karen Field Technical Writer, Editor, Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:13:12 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Full-time: How Long Did it Take? Hi, Karen, It took me 4 years to go from re-entry (no indexing activity for years, although prior, non-computerized, experience) to full-time, making contacts, building a portfolio, and learning my indexing software as I went along. I was full-time employed during that 4 year period. I didn't leave my full-time job until I could no longer cope with the indexing work coming my way. I worked my job by day, indexed evenings, nights, weekends. When it finally became impossible, I decided to take the plunge and go full-time. My thinking at the time was that the extra time, since I didn't expect to be busy full-time indexing right away, would go toward marketing, something that is difficult if you have a non-indexing full-time day job. Making calls is "difficult" at best. I thought between the marketing and perhaps a part-time job (bookstore, I thought), I'd keep things moving. I never got the chance to get that part-time job. Indexing jobs came more quickly, and I filled my time. The rest is history, as they say. The key to it all was a lot of marketing and attending ASI conferences and meetings when I could. I went to the National meeting, and, being in Arizona, attended either of the California chapter big meetings. I got to know people. And I marketed publishers like crazy. Lots of Literary Market Place lists from hours spent in the library, and cold calls/letters. I returned calls by using a credit card to call from the lobby of my office building. Not from my desk, of course. I had my page proof packages delivered to a mailbox place, which I used as my business address, and therefore didn't have to be home to receive them. What a time! It was crazy, but it worked. It was incredibly hard to do it that way. But I didn't have the luxury of quitting my day job. My income was part of the family income. Many were the nights I fell asleep with my head down on my desk, only to be awakened by my husband so I could shower and change to go to my day job. But I wanted the self-employment very badly, and being highly motivated that way carried me over the tough stuff. Good luck! It can be done. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:16:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: beverlee day Subject: Re: Indexing Full-time: How Long Did it Take? Karen, I am just about to take that "big leap" into indexing "full-time". My first indexing job was almost 3 years ago. I was working full-time in a school library. I used summers and breaks to market myself. This year, I am only working part-time, and I have not signed a contract for next year. It worked out well because I had time to market myself (around 4 bulk mailings with some follow-up calls) and I was able to slowly work myself out of a full-time job. I still feel leery about this, but I figure I will have more time to market myself when I am not working in my school library position. I also have a position at a public library system as an "on call" librarian that I can fall back on (when they need me) for slow times. I also think that once you have some publishers, it gets easier to get more work. I recently received an index from a publisher who was referred to me by another publisher who liked my work. I think how long it may take to become full-time will depend on a combination of serendipity, skill, and perserverance. Best of Luck! Beverlee Day Guided by Words Indexing > >As an aspiring indexer, I have a question for you pros that I think many >indexers might find interesting: How long, after you got your first >indexing job, did it take you to become full-time (or something like >full-time)? Did you work at other jobs before you went full-time? How >much effort did you put into becoming full-time-a lot, or did it "just >happen"? > >Thanks in advance. > >Karen Field >Technical Writer, Editor, Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky & Bob Hornyak Subject: Re: Indexing Full-time: How Long Did it Take? Karen and All, From the time I started the USDA course until I was indexing full-time was two and a half years. In the meantime, I worked in-house part-time for a publisher of computer books for nine or ten months to get experience while maintaining a 32 hour per week "day job". Once I quit that to begin freelancing, it took four months to get my first job (I still had the "day job"), and then another four to get the second. About that time, my former indexing employer contacted me about freelancing. After that, I was making a nice part-time living indexing for six months. It was getting to the point I was either going to have to start turning down work or go full-time (which had been my goal all along) when the situation at my "day job" took a turn for the worse. I quit it and went into indexing full-time. It's been almost 10 months, and I haven't regretted the decision. Becky Hornyak, Indexer bhornyak@iquest.net -----Original Message----- From: Karen Field To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 3:52 PM Subject: Indexing Full-time: How Long Did it Take? >Hello, All. > >As an aspiring indexer, I have a question for you pros that I think many >indexers might find interesting: How long, after you got your first >indexing job, did it take you to become full-time (or something like >full-time)? Did you work at other jobs before you went full-time? How >much effort did you put into becoming full-time-a lot, or did it "just >happen"? > >Thanks in advance. > >Karen Field >Technical Writer, Editor, Indexer > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:25:13 EDT Reply-To: SHughes512@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Indexing Full-time: How Long Did it Take? In a message dated 99-04-22 17:28:25 EDT, you write: << How long, after you got your first indexing job, did it take you to become full-time (or something like full-time)? Did you work at other jobs before you went full-time? How much effort did you put into becoming full-time-a lot, or did it "just happen"? >> As you said its an interesting question. When I started indexing, I didn't intend to become a full-time indexer until my husband could retire. I wanted an interesting supplemental occupation. I was very lucky to have a scientific background and wonderful person who found me my first job. My assignments came regularly and pretty quickly. My first two part-time years, I worked on the index for a BIG journal with 32,000 entries per year and a few smaller jobs. It was wonderful. But it kept me from marketing. When it (the journal) went Online, I was forced to look around and reach out. By the end of the third year I found that I was turning down work because I didn't have time, along with my full time job. The fact that I had this "back-up" income, caused me to take a long look at my day job, and I quit. (no more commuting two hours a day) I thought that my first full-time year would be slow. I volunteered for ASI and for a local charitable organization.. Was I surprised. I found that I'm very busy and still occasionally have to turn down editors. I'm cutting way back on volunteerism next year but I find volunteering is a way to get out of the house, so I'll keep some going. My question to the group, is: How do you manage your time during the working day? Or maybe it is How do you actually end your working day and have some free time? I haven't been able to work out a routine that I find productive and that gives me a feeling that my "free time" is really mine. I'm always pulling out a folio, or editing an index when I probably should be going for a walk or reading for pleasure or working in the garden. I have a system of entering for a couple of hours, then marking for a while, then entering again, then editing for a while and so on, -- complete with many cups of tea and occasional music. I check email every few hours, but I never seem to really stop. - even on weekends. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: presenter needed All -- I'm trying to help an STC Chapter in Northern California. They're= looking for a presenter with indexing expertise in indexing online documentation and/or online help systems to deliver a presentation on May= 20 or June 17. Ideally, you should be within easy traveling distance fro= m Northern California. (I'm not, and I'm also booked for those dates.) Please let me know if you're interested, and I'll send your name & contac= t info to my STC contact there. Happy indexing! .... Lori Lori Lathrop (LoriLathrop@compuserve.com) Lathrop Media Services, Charlotte, NC = Web site - http://idt.net/~lathro19 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:03:47 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peggy Pedigo I would like to contact any indexers who work with Asian Studies or Developing Countries subjects. I am new to INDEX-L. I am considering entering the indexing field after some years in corporate libraries. Having scanned some of the basic literature on indexing it appears that settling on a specialty is helpful especially for the beginner. Since I have an MA in Asian Studies and BA in Political Science with many courses on developing countries, it seems like a good place to start. Is this a viable field? Is it glutted with too many indexers already? Before I choose this career I want to assess the odds of success as a full time indexer in an interesting field. I would like to hear from any indexers who have worked the field and hear your comments. Please reply to me directly at: ppedigo@hotmail.com Thanks. Peggy Peggy Pedigo 3437 N. 50th Place Phoenix, AZ 85018 602-840-7528 ppedigo@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:23:06 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate In-Reply-To: Julie Grayson wrote: > There is also one other REALLY ANNOYING publisher in California (if > anyone wants the name, I will share, off list) who not only pays an > unbelievable $2.00 per page, but always wants a combined subject and > cited author index. When approached with the query "Will you consider > paying a very reasonable per entry rate for the cited author portion > of the index?" their reply was the anticipated "No." I only take their > work now when I have nothing else in the pipeline. Can anyone else > relate to this? Every profession needs a kindergarten for beginners. Leave these publishers for the new indexers who are trying to get started. By giving them a quality index for $2 per page you're only encouraging them to believe they can get away with it. BTW, I've found that nothing overcomes one's embarrassment at talking about money so effectively as ending up with a few really underpaid jobs. Now I make a habit of mentioning it in the first phone call. Jon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 07:35:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate At 08:23 PM 4/23/99 +1000, Jon & Glenda wrote: > >BTW, I've found that nothing overcomes one's embarrassment at talking about >money so effectively as ending up with a few really underpaid jobs. Now I >make a habit of mentioning it in the first phone call. > >Jon Yes, I agree. I just had the wearisome experience of dealing with a journal publisher who paid a pittance an article for 3 medical subject headings AND a separate author index. In some cases there were 10-12 authors per article, all of whom had ununusual names. In addition, the indexer needed to insert special coding for letter divisions, main headings, and the FIRST subheading in each heading category in the index, plus the entire title of each article constituted the subheading. The coding ended up having to be done manually because until the index was done, one couldn't be sure what was going to be the first subheading. In the author index, the indexer had to make cross-references from secondary authors to the main author entry, where the title of the article also had to be included! The senior authors' names also had to be included in the subject index in parens after the article title. (ALL of this for the pittance.) 'Nuff said. Do I need to tell you that I lost money on the deal, big time? Even though I have been indexing for a while, it taught me something more about what are the right questions to ask the publisher next time around. There was no point in arguing about the fee once the materials arrived, because the publisher has a set fee. When I first talked about the project with the publisher's rep, it sounded pretty straightforward, but when the guidelines arrived, there was all sorts of stuff like I mentioned above that was not discussed from the get go. SO ... I learned something from this= mistake! I don't think we ever stop learning in this business! Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:01:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate Does this mean you really shouldn't agree to ANYTHING until the specifica= tions are received? Or that one should agree to take a job for a given fee pending= receipt of the specs? Iris Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > At 08:23 PM 4/23/99 +1000, Jon & Glenda wrote: > > > >BTW, I've found that nothing overcomes one's embarrassment at talking = about > >money so effectively as ending up with a few really underpaid jobs. No= w I > >make a habit of mentioning it in the first phone call. > > > >Jon > > Yes, I agree. I just had the wearisome experience of dealing with a jou= rnal > publisher who paid a pittance an article for 3 medical subject headings= AND > a separate author index. In some cases there were 10-12 authors per art= icle, > all of whom had ununusual names. In addition, the indexer needed to ins= ert > special coding for letter divisions, main headings, and the FIRST subhe= ading > in each heading category in the index, plus the entire title of each ar= ticle > constituted the subheading. The coding ended up having to be done manua= lly > because until the index was done, one couldn't be sure what was going t= o be > the first subheading. In the author index, the indexer had to make > cross-references from secondary authors to the main author entry, where= the > title of the article also had to be included! The senior authors' names= also > had to be included in the subject index in parens after the article tit= le. > (ALL of this for the pittance.) > > 'Nuff said. Do I need to tell you that I lost money on the deal, big ti= me? > Even though I have been indexing for a while, it taught me something mo= re > about what are the right questions to ask the publisher next time aroun= d. > There was no point in arguing about the fee once the materials arrived, > because the publisher has a set fee. When I first talked about the proj= ect > with the publisher's rep, it sounded pretty straightforward, but when t= he > guidelines arrived, there was all sorts of stuff like I mentioned above= that > was not discussed from the get go. SO ... I learned something from this= mistake! > > I don't think we ever stop learning in this business! > > Cynthia > > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen > Bertelsen Indexing Services > cbertel@usit.net > Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ > > "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no > literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, n= o > social harmony." > --Car=EAme > ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate At 09:01 AM 4/23/99 -0400, Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik wrote: >Does this mean you really shouldn't agree to ANYTHING until the specifica= >tions are >received? Or that one should agree to take a job for a given fee pending= > receipt of >the specs? > >Iris Not really, but it doesn't hurt, I think, to ask more questions before accepting the job. Unfortunately, sometimes you learn the hard way what questions to ask in the future, even if you have been indexing for a while. That is my point here. This was an unusual situation, because usually if the pages/specs arrive and I see that I am going to have to do more than I was led to believe, then I usually ask for, and get, more money. In this particular case, there was no room for any negotiation. I did make some changes in the contract that they sent me to the effect that I would not be available to do the second part of the index for the rest of the year. I also told them that they paid too low for me to consider it again. So again my point is that we need to ask as many questions as possible when that call comes. I am going to revise my list of questions that I keep by the phone to include stuff like special coding, how many authors per article, any special things like having to type out the titles of articles, etc. Again, the other journal publishers for whom I work pay me a living wage and they are to be commended for recognizing the need to do that. Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:17:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Help! Need style info Hello all - Have any of you done index work for Brill Academic publishers in Leyden? I am working for an author --the publisher is Brill. He was instructed to provide an index but they sent neither guidelines nor a sample. So far, they have not responded to his questions. There is one book at our local university library published by Brill but it is 20 years old and I may not be able to get it. If any of you have prepared indexes for Brill, please contact me off list, as I have a few basic style questions. Thanks in advance Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:01:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Virus Alert [a real one] The San Francisco Chronicle has warned of an impending attack of the virus sometimes called "Chernobyl". This is a repeating, date- sensitive virus which may appear on Monday, April 26. This is a virus sent accidentally on some magazine CD-ROMs as well as some respected Internet sites and affects only Windows 95 and 98 .EXE or executable files. On the chance that you may already be infected I suggest turning off your computer between Sunday evening and Tuesday morning. For more information go to http://www.nai.com [this is McAfee's site and wasn't very helpful]. Symantec has better info at www.symantec.com/ region/uk/avcenter/chernobyl.html. Download a "protection" file from www.symantec.com/avcenter/kill_cih.exe; apparently this does not remove the virus but only controls it. Download a special Norton Anti-Virus file from www.symantec.com/nav/navc.html; this removes the virus. Good luck. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:11:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Test Test, ignore (sorry). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:17:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Aganita Varkentine (S&T Onsite)" Subject: Re: Virus Alert [a real one] Microsoft is taking this seriously and has issued this warning to all employees: The Win9x.CIH virus is scheduled to strike this Monday, April 26th. If you are infected with this virus, the contents of your hard drive could be erased. This is a reminder that Win9x.CIH and other viruses will attack your system if you don't have anti-virus software installed, or if you are using outdated anti-virus software. We've been told to use anti-virus software to clear. -----Original Message----- From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott [mailto:75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM] Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:01 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Virus Alert [a real one] The San Francisco Chronicle has warned of an impending attack of the virus sometimes called "Chernobyl". This is a repeating, date- sensitive virus which may appear on Monday, April 26. This is a virus sent accidentally on some magazine CD-ROMs as well as some respected Internet sites and affects only Windows 95 and 98 .EXE or executable files. On the chance that you may already be infected I suggest turning off your computer between Sunday evening and Tuesday morning. For more information go to http://www.nai.com [this is McAfee's site and wasn't very helpful]. Symantec has better info at www.symantec.com/ region/uk/avcenter/chernobyl.html. Download a "protection" file from www.symantec.com/avcenter/kill_cih.exe; apparently this does not remove the virus but only controls it. Download a special Norton Anti-Virus file from www.symantec.com/nav/navc.html; this removes the virus. Good luck. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:38:37 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Scheduling (was: Indexing Full-time: How Long Did it Take?) Sharon Hughes wrote: > My question to the group, is: How do you manage your time during the > working day? Or maybe it is How do you actually end your working day and > have some free time? I haven't been able to work out a routine that I find > productive and that gives me a feeling that my "free time" is really mine. > I'm always pulling out a folio, or editing an index when I probably should be > going for a walk or reading for pleasure or working in the garden. I have a > system of entering for a couple of hours, then marking for a while, then > entering again, then editing for a while and so on, -- complete with many > cups of tea and occasional music. I check email every few hours, but I never > seem to really stop. - even on weekends. > Sharon Hi Sharon, I've found that I can judge the amount of time that a book will take after a couple (or few) chapters. I then use that calculation to set a schedule to complete the book by the deadline date (or before)--this would include daily goals of pages marked, entered or edited. I find that you can build days off into this schedule (Fridays and Sundays for me). It helps to write the schedule down (on a calendar, spreadsheet, scrap of paper...). Here's something I do: I have a template of chapter checkboxes for each of these tasks: Reading, Marking, and Entering. I will establish a schedule on this by indicating with lines what I will do by certain dates Ex: Read 1[] 2[] 3[] 4[] 5[] 6[] 7[] 8[] 9[] 10[] etc... Mark 1[] 2[] 3[] 4[] 5[] 6[] 7[] 8[] 9[] 10[] etc... Enter 1[] 2[] 3[] 4[] 5[] 6[] 7[] 8[] 9[] 10[] etc... So I might draw lines after Chs. 5 and 10 for reading (indicating two days), then after Chs. 4 and 8 for Marking, then after Chs. 3, 7 and 10 for Entering. Then I edit (I edit at the end, but you could easily add editing in the middle if you do a lot that way). When I hit the line, I stop (unless I want to get ahead for some reason). Another variation is that you could put a box around Chs. 1, 2 and 3 for both Marking and Entering if you do it that way, before moving on. Keep it simple. However, I know that some people prefer to work for short periods, seven days per week. You may have settled in to this schedule because you are comfortable with it (despite the gardens falling apart around you). If you're working all the time, maybe you have too much work, I'm certainly available to help you out with that ;-D. Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:24:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Virus Alert [a real one] In-Reply-To: <199904231828.LAA29113@decibel.electriciti.com> Can a person reset their computer calendar (date) mechanism and avoid the virus? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:54:35 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Virus Alert [a real one] In-Reply-To: <199904231621.ri1lih.fso.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> --=====================_18390278==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:24 PM 5/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >Can a person reset their computer calendar (date) mechanism and avoid the >virus? >Pam Rider There's an interesting rant about this on http://www.kumite.com/myths , in the section on the CIH virus. I personally would be slightly wary of doing it, but it might work. I'm not certain that setting the date in Windows (Macs aren't affected by this virus as far as I can tell) actually resets the computer's own internal calendar....does anyone know the answer to that? I think your best bet is to make sure you have the latest virus definitions for your antivirus software, and do a complete scan of your system on Sunday (& scan any attachments or discs you receive before loading them on Monday). I've also been told that trying to clean/fix/cure the virus will actually activate it, so be sure to set your antivirus software to REPORT the virus, not to fix it. Then delete the infected files, and replace them with clean ones. (However, the NAI site http://www.nai.com doesn't mention this, so it may be apocryphal...) Incidentally, the Kumite web site implies that, while this is indeed a real virus, the danger is being blown somewhat out of proportion....So practice safe computing, & stay calm!! Caroline __________________________________________________________ | | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence | | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents, | Software documentation, and Online help systems | | Tijeras, NM | 505-286-2738 | cparks@mindspring.com | | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim." |_________________________________________________________ --=====================_18390278==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 12:24 PM 5/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Can a person reset their computer calendar (date) mechanism and avoid the
>virus?
>Pam Rider

There's an interesting rant about this on http://www.kumite.com/myths , in the section on the CIH virus.  I personally would be slightly wary of doing it, but it might work.  I'm not certain that setting the date in Windows (Macs aren't affected by this virus as far as I can tell) actually resets the computer's own internal calendar....does anyone know the answer to that?

I think your best bet is to make sure you have the latest virus definitions for your antivirus software, and do a complete scan of your system on Sunday (& scan any attachments or discs you receive before loading them on Monday).  I've also been told that trying to clean/fix/cure the virus will actually activate it, so be sure to set your antivirus software to REPORT the virus, not to fix it.  Then delete the infected files, and replace them with clean ones.  (However, the NAI site http://www.nai.com doesn't mention this, so it may be apocryphal...)

Incidentally, the Kumite web site implies that, while this is indeed a real virus, the danger is being blown somewhat out of proportion....So practice safe computing, & stay calm!!

Caroline
__________________________________________________________
|
|   Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence
|
|   Indexing services for Books, Technical documents,
|   Software documentation, and Online help systems
|
|   Tijeras, NM 
|   505-286-2738
|   cparks@mindspring.com
|
|   "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim."
|_________________________________________________________ --=====================_18390278==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:26:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: asian names Can someone direct me to alphabetizing help, or offer it, for these names ? Quang Jiang Tuong Huu Le Xiahong Joe Zhou Xiaoping Hu Choong Gon Choi Shing-Chung Ngan Thanks in advance ! Barbara Stroup ********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:26:48 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Virus Alert [a real one] In-Reply-To: > executable files. On the chance that you may already be infected I suggest > turning off your computer between Sunday evening and Tuesday morning. This is ridiculous - I've got work to do and I don't see why these b***** virus people should stop us. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:42:18 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Virus Alert [a real one] In-Reply-To: > The Win9x.CIH virus is scheduled to strike this Monday, April 26th. If ............................................................................... ................. > The San Francisco Chronicle has warned of an impending attack of > the virus sometimes called "Chernobyl". This is a repeating, date- > sensitive virus which may appear on Monday, April 26. According to Sophos, CIH is the same virus essentially as Chernobyl - we have one virus (or family of viruses), not two unrelated ones. The time may come, if the virus writers win, when we can no longer use computers as freely as we do now, but I don't think that day has arrived yet. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:58:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chandonnet /Soumah Subject: IASC Annual General Meeting INDEXING : FROM PRACTICE TO RESEARCH ... AND BACK! 1999 IASC ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING Planning is well under way for the two-day IASC meeting on May 7 and 8 1999 in Montreal. The planning committee this year is made of Ginette Chandonnet, Michhle Hudon, Christine Jacobs, James Turner, and Noeline Bridge (ex officio). Here s an overview of what we have in store for you. On Friday, May 7 * Two half-day workshops : in the morning (9:00 to 12:30), Indexing 101, offered in English by Catherine Keenan and Christopher Blackburn; in the afternoon (1:30 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.), Gestion du vocabulaire et contrtle d autoriti, offered in French by Michhle Hudon. On Saturday May 8 * 9:00 a.m. : Registration and coffee. * 9:15 a.m. : Welcoming speech. * 9:30 a.m. : Keynote presentation by Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, professor at Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information (EBSI) of Universiti de Montrial, and well known researcher in the field of indexing. * 10:00 a.m. : Break * 10:30 a.m. : Description and discussion of techniques used for indexing visual materials with James Turner of EBSI and Yvon Lemay of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC). * 11:45 a.m. : Lunch * 1:30 p.m. : Presentations of subject and name authority files used in various contexts (local, national, international). * 2:30 p.m. : Round table on the theme: Marketing your indexing services with Noeline Bridge, President of IASC. * 3:30 p.m. : Break * 3:45 p.m. : General assembly of members of the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada. Half of the presentations will be made in English. You will find on IASC website ( http://esi25.ESI.Umontreal.CA:80/~turner/iasc/agm/AGMen.htm ) a more detailed description of the content of the two workshops offered on May 7, an invitation to attend the IASC/SCAD general assembly, as well as a registration form for the workshops and/or the activities of May 8. We hope that many of you will accept our invitation to participate in these activities, a good opportunity to update your knowledge on various subjects, to meet with colleagues, and to make new friends. See you soon, in Montreal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- L'INDEXATION : DE LA PRATIQUE @ LA RECHERCHE ... @ LA PRATIQUE! RENCONTRE GINIRALE ANNUELLE 1999 DE LA SCAD Les priparatifs vont bon train pour la rencontre des 7 et 8 mai prochain ` Montrial. Le comiti d organisation est formi cette annie de Ginette Chandonnet, Michhle Hudon, Christine Jacobs, James Turner et de Noeline Bridge (ex officio). Voici un apergu de ce que nous priparons pour vous. Le vendredi 7 mai : * Deux ateliers de formation d une demi-journie : en avant-midi (9h00-12h30), Indexing 101, offert en anglais par Catherine Keenan et Christopher Blackburn; en aprhs-midi (13h30-17h00), Gestion du vocabulaire et contrtle d autoriti, offert en frangais par Michhle Hudon. Le samedi 8 mai : * 9h00 : Inscription et cafi. * 9h15 : Mot de bienvenue. * 9h30 : Confirence d ouverture donnie par Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, professeure ` l Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information (EBSI) de l Universiti de Montrial et chercheure de renom dans le domaine de l indexation. * 10h00 : Pause * 10h30 : Communications sur les techniques d indexation de l image avec James Turner de l'EBSI et Yvon Lemay de la Sociiti Radio-Canada (SRC). * 11h45 : Dnner * 13h30 : Prisentations de fichiers d autoriti des noms et des sujets en usage dans divers milieux (locaux, nationaux et internationaux). * 14h30 : Table ronde sur le marketing des services d indexation avec Noeline Bridge, Prisidente de la SCAD. * 15h30 : Pause * 15h45 : Assemblie ginirale des membres de la Sociiti canadienne pour l analyse des documents. Nous privoyons que la moitii des communications seront faites en frangais. Vous trouverez sur le site web de la SCAD (http://esi25.ESI.UMontreal.CA:80/~turner/iasc/agm/AGMfr.htm ) une description plus ditaillie du contenu des ateliers offerts le 7 mai, une invitation ` participer ` l Assemblie ginirale de la SCAD, ainsi qu un bulletin d inscription aux ateliers du 7 mai et/ou ` la journie du samedi 8 mai. Nous espirons que vous serez nombreux ` accepter notre invitation ` participer ` ces activitis qui vous donneront l occasion de vous ressourcer, de rencontrer vos collhgues et amis et d itablir de nouveaux contacts. @ bienttt, ` Montrial. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Shrout Subject: Re: DC Chapter meeting Deborah, I meant to send you a message sooner. I have an index due Monday night that I am just starting but, more importantly, tomorrow morning will be my only chance to see my youngest daughter play junior varsit softball. She is the center fielder and leadoff batter. So I will see you in Indianapolis. Richard Deborah Patton wrote: > > The Washington DC Chapter of ASI will meet to discuss the Index Process, > Saturday, April 24th at AlignMark, (1340 Braddock Place, Suite 400) in > Alexandria, VA beginning at 9:30 am. Our speaker will be Alexandra > Nickerson who's been freelance indexing from an office outside her home > since 1986. For those of us with home offices, we want to know why she > finds this arrangement to be cost-effective. We'll also talk about office > technology, billing, and a variety of other related topics. We should be > done by noon. > > Alexandra specializes in medical and health-related materials and also > indexes software applications books, cookbooks, and textbooks. She's been > indexing since 1965. In addition, she is an instructor for the U.S. > Department of Agriculture Graduate School basic indexing course. > > The cost is $15. To register, please send a check made out to DC/ASI to > Deborah Patton > 1301 W. 42nd Street > Baltimore, MD 21211-1508 > Questions? 410/243-4688 > > Directions: > By Metro: From Braddock Line Road Metro Station (Blue/Yellow Line), > AlignMark is a 2-minute walk. As you exit the station, look left for the > brick Braddock Place Arch. Go through the arch and across the plaza to > #1340 at the far end. > By car: Take Route 1 or the George Washington Memorial (Washington Street) > to Alexandria. From the north, turn right onto Madison; from the south turn > left onto Madison. Proceed west. Turn right on Fayette, then left onto > Braddock Place. > Parking: From the Braddock Place cul-de-sac, pass the underground parking > entrance and turn right into the entrance marked "hourly parking." Proceed > down the drive and park in spaces behind #1340. Alternatively, street > parking is available on Fayette, First, and Payne. > > This is our last meeting for 1998-1999 -- the next meeting for our chapter > won't be untill the fall. Hope to see you there, > > Deborah > > ============================== > Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer > Vice Chair, Washington, DC Chapter of ASI > Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:20:59 EDT Reply-To: JRCNDX@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JRCNDX@AOL.COM Subject: "Newby" Questions Hello All, I am a hopeful newby indexer who has been lurking for a few months soaking up all the wonderful knowledge and tips you experienced indexers are so willing to freely exchange. I can't thank you enough for that and you will never know how much you have helped! Now that I am nearing the end of the USDA class, I have begun to really think about the process of the actual "indexing jobs" and have come to realize there are "big blanks" in my understanding of the process. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not talking about the actual process of indexing, which I understand is a unique experience for each person, but just the "business" process. In other words, I am interested in a kind of "day in the life" of an indexer. My understanding of the process goes like this: 1. You receive a call from a client/publisher and decide to take the job after discussing the type of index, money, deadlines, etc. Are most jobs initialized by a phone call? If it is a new client, is it handled differently? 2. You receive the proof sheets (is this what you are sent and is the whole book sent at once?) in the mail (?) Fed Ex (?) within a few days (?) and start work. (I am unsure of exactly how that process works as you can see.) I have heard of some situations where "sample" proof sheets are sent. Is this a good idea for every job? If so, how does that work? 3. Assuming everything goes according to the initial interview & schedule (no surprises in the sheets, etc.) and you do the index on time...then what? 4. I assume the finished index is sent back via mail and/or electronically (e-mail). Do you also always send a hard copy of the index (a printed copy)? Do you send back the proof sheets? Do you send your invoice then and are you paid within a certain time limit? Do some publishers have a certain time of month that they "cut" checks? (I think there was a discussion on payment in the recent past.) Do you take other jobs from this same publisher before the invoice is paid? (Stupid question I guess...if you want to work.) 5. What if it is a new client...do you ask for references and/or credit report, etc.? Putting these questions down in writing has hepled me realize I may know a little more of the process than I thought, but I am still insecure about the procedure and appreciate the input, if for no other reason, than to help myself and possibly other "newbies" overcome the "fear of the unknown." If my questions are unclear, forgive me, I am trying to put down my own anxious feelings in order to "nip in the bud" some of the unforeseen things that can happen. I know there are a lot of people on this list and am not trying to overcrowd the mail, but I was hoping for just a generic "day in the life" type answer for those that may have time to answer. I hope I am not asking too much at once and I hope I am not asking "stupid" questions. Thank you for your wonderful collective wisdom once again!! Jerry Cole P.S. I am also sending this to the indexstudents list, so if you get it twice, please forgive me! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:43:30 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Newby" Questions Dear Jerry, These are very good questions! Here are some answers from my particular fields (social sciences/humanities, scholarly books, textbooks and encyclopedias). Some of these particulars are going to vary according to the field, so other people may have slightly different answer. << 1. You receive a call from a client/publisher and decide to take the job after discussing the type of index, money, deadlines, etc. Are most jobs initialized by a phone call? If it is a new client, is it handled differently? Most jobs for me are initialized by a phone call, or, with some established clients, by an email message. If it's a new client I ask more questions about style, type of book, etc., tell them more about myself according to what they ask, negotiate price, tell them they're paying for shipping and that I expect to be paid within 30 days of completing the job, and so on. <<2. You receive the proof sheets (is this what you are sent and is the whole book sent at once?) in the mail (?) Fed Ex (?) within a few days (?) and start work. (I am unsure of exactly how that process works as you can see.) I have heard of some situations where "sample" proof sheets are sent. Is this a good idea for every job? If so, how does that work?>> I receive the page proofs (the last stage of the book before it's actually published). Occasionally someone wants to send me galleys or some other preliminary stage, and I refuse. Publishers vary in how far ahead they plan. Some call a month or two in advance, and I tend to fill my schedule with them these days. Others call in a panic and want to ship you the book that day. (Sometimes I can fit them in.) If I've signed up for a book in advance I call a few weeks before the pages are supposed to arrive to make sure the book's still on schedule. It often isn't, and then I negotiate a new due date, promising to get it to them as fast as possible but politely demanding that I have the same amount of time to work on it as I signed up for. Page proofs arrive by express shipping; most publishers do this. I've had so many bad experiences with the post office ("next-day" packages arriving weeks later) that I strongly encourage them not to use it. I remind them that my schedule starts on the date the pages arrive, not the date they ship them. I usually don't ask for sample pages, though sometimes I wish I had. With established clients I usually know what kinds of books they publish; with new ones I know what questions to ask to determine what price I should charge. <<3. Assuming everything goes according to the initial interview & schedule (no surprises in the sheets, etc.) and you do the index on time...then what?>> Of course, you make sure that you absolutely do the index on time every single time! You send it back (with a new client I often call that day to reassure them that they are getting it on time). (See next question on how to send it.) Then you do a whooping dance of joy, waving your Federal Express package around and calling out "$1400.00, right here!" to your loved ones. <<4. I assume the finished index is sent back via mail and/or electronically (e-mail). Do you also always send a hard copy of the index (a printed copy)? Do you send back the proof sheets? Do you send your invoice then and are you paid within a certain time limit? Do some publishers have a certain time of month that they "cut" checks? (I think there was a discussion on payment in the recent past.) Do you take other jobs from this same publisher before the invoice is paid? (Stupid question I guess...if you want to work.)>> You send back the index via express shipping (I use Federal Express), charging the publisher for it. Get their account number for the shipping service if you can, otherwise put the shipping amount on your invoice. More and more publishers are wanting/allowing email delivery. Push for this if you can, because it saves you having to print out the hard copy and gives you an extra day or two to finish the index. Ask the publisher if they want the proofs back; most don't. I send the pages of text on which I found typos, also. I send my invoice (marked "due and payable within 30 days") in the index package, or by mail if emailing the index. Keep track of when you shipped jobs/invoices; I have a chart with expected pay dates, in case you need to bother them for it. Sometimes this happens, but I've only once had such a bad problem that I wouldn't have wanted to work for that client again. I know others haven't been so lucky... << 5. What if it is a new client...do you ask for references and/or credit report, etc.? >> I've never done this. If I feel uneasy about a prospective new client, I pass (say I'm too busy). When I work directly for authors, I require that they pay me half of the approximate indexing fee up front (when I receive the page proofs); I've never had a complaint about this. Feel free to ask more! Good luck! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 08:52:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ":) christy" Subject: scheduling projects Hello! Does anybody have any advice or experiences to share on scheduling freelance projects? That is, how do you make sure you have enough projects to keep busy (and financially sound) without running into overlaps and conflicts? Maybe some projects stick to their time forecasts better than others, but of the last two contracts I have had, one was supposed to last six weeks (and ended up going on and off for 11 months!), and the other was supposed to be 2-3 weeks and went a total of 37 hours. I'm always on the lookout for new contracts, but I'm not always sure how to do that when existing clients are taking up a large (and often unpredictable) amount of my time. What do you do? Thanks so much! :) christy christyworks@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:47:01 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Lightfoot Subject: Change of address Would you please note that I have changed my email address to: After the failure of my hard disk AND my backup Jaz disk I have lost all my email files. I've sent messages to all those people whose email addresses I can find, but I may have missed some. Thank you. Sue --------------------------------------------- Sue Lightfoot Indexer, Proofreader Tremorva, Talland Hill, Polperro, Cornwall PL13 2RZ, England Tel/Fax: 01503 273006 email: slightfoot@macace.co.uk --------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:13:01 EDT Reply-To: RHurd44884@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rick Hurd Subject: Proofreading I have been contemplating the idea of learning how to proofread and doing that to compliment freelance indexing. Does anyone have any experience in this? Or, as to where one could learn this? I know that the Graduate School of the USDA offers a course on proofreading. Anyone have a take on any of this? I would gladly accept any advice on this subject off list. Thank you. Sincerely, Rick Hurd. Rick's Indexing 2125 Birmingham Rd. Liberty Mo. 64068 Phone/Fax: 816-781-9042 Email: ricksindexing@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 05:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: Viruses and Y2K issues All -- As some of you may be aware, April 26 (today) is the day that the"Chernobyl virus" may affect thousands of computer users around the world. I hope none of us will be affected (infected?) by it. If you wan= t to be on the safe side, McAfee has a great website that will even do onli= ne virus checking and Y2K checks; you just have to register: = http://clinic.mcafee.com Happy indexing! .... Lori ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:57:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Proofreading Please reply on list, as there are others of us who may be interested in proofreading as well. Thank you. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:41:33 EDT Reply-To: TAHUDOBA@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Proofreading Hi Rick, One of the other hats I wear (in addition to that of indexer and copy editor) is that of proofreader. Proofreading was the first skill I learned--20 some years ago--that led me to editing and eventually indexing. The personal traits of precision and attention to detail greatly help if one is interested in proofreading. Also a good background in spelling, punctuation, and grammar. I currently job-share a position with 2 other people at an advertising agency--we 3 all find that proofing can be very intense at times, and have decided that it's not something any of us would choose to do full-time. This position pays on an hourly basis--at this time the rate is just over $21/hr, but I started out doing freelance projects for this employer 3 years ago at $18/hr. I'm not familiar with the USDA course, but I do know that proofreading classes are offered locally here in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota) through community education and the University of Minnesota Extension Division. So you might check around in your area to see what's available. Good luck! Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com In a message dated 4/25/99 9:28:32 PM Central Daylight Time, RHurd44884@AOL.COM writes: > Subj: Proofreading > > I have been contemplating the idea of learning how to proofread and doing > that to compliment freelance indexing. Does anyone have any experience in > this? Or, as to where one could learn this? I know that the Graduate School > of the USDA offers a course on proofreading. Anyone have a take on any of > this? > > I would gladly accept any advice on this subject off list. Thank you. > > Sincerely, > Rick Hurd. Rick's Indexing > 2125 Birmingham Rd. > Liberty Mo. 64068 > Phone/Fax: 816-781-9042 > Email: ricksindexing@hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:00:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mara Pinckard Subject: off-grid I am a member of ASI who has been lurking and learning for awhile. I have not yet gotten my feet wet in the business, but have done a lot of preliminary "stuff" which I won't bore you with. I would like to ask if anyone has experience or information on using PC's with an inverter (Solar power) or generators and also on cell phone modems (with a desk top PC). You can tell where this is going, right? Eventually we will be living OUT in the country!! Replies off list are welcome and I will be glad to summarize if others are interested. Thanks in advance to the participants of this list-who make it such a rewarding experience! Mara Pinckard Mara.Pinckard@asu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:13:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Viruses and Y2K issues Lori Lathrop wrote: > > All -- As some of you may be aware, April 26 (today) is the day that > the"Chernobyl virus" may affect thousands of computer users around the > world. I hope none of us will be affected (infected?) by it. If you > want to be on the safe side, McAfee has a great website that will even > do online virus checking and Y2K checks; you just have to register: > > http://clinic.mcafee.com Several years ago, McAfee's free evaluation version of their full virus detection software saved me from a serious boot-sector virus that had gotten past my previous virus-check program. They really saved my bacon--I even got in-depth tech support! As soon as the virus was cleared up, I paid for a full registration and bought a subscription. I've been a happy (and virus free!) customer ever since. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:43:48 -0500 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: Re: off-grid All, Please reply on list. I for one am interested in this topic too! Linda Fetters > > I am a member of ASI who has been lurking and learning for awhile. I have > not yet gotten my feet wet in the business, but have done a lot of > preliminary "stuff" which I won't bore you with. I would like to ask if > anyone has experience or information on using PC's with an inverter (Solar > power) or generators and also on cell phone modems (with a desk top PC). You > can tell where this is going, right? Eventually we will be living OUT in the > country!! Replies off list are welcome and I will be glad to summarize if > others are interested. Thanks in advance to the participants of this > list-who make it such a rewarding experience! > > Mara Pinckard > > Mara.Pinckard@asu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Barkin I'm working on a web indexing project. Is it apporpriate to send a job posting for a web indexer to the list? Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:38:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: off-grid We ran a computer off a 500-watt Honda generator for years. The only problem was powering down before it ran out of gas--but today's UPS systems would prevent any damage from that problem! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:57:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Kish Subject: Indexing job for beginner In-Reply-To: <199904261843.LAA19949@mail.mcn.org> Dear List, I'm in a conflict with assignments. All my regular pals are busy, and can't take any more jobs, so I'm looking for an indexer who'll take this manuscript off my hands, and who could then submit the work as their own. The manuscript is a series of papers on Government and Legal Relationships. Interesting, really, in a dry sort of way. Expectations of editor are for minimal exploration of the material, and an index from a similar publication is available. Pay is not great, but adequate. Unfortunately, the job starts NOW, hopefully. Someone would need to come to my home today or tomorrow at the latest and get the pages. I'm about 10 minutes south of Santa Rosa. Please phone (707) 586-2694. Thanks, Paul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:40:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Emily Barkin wrote: > > I'm working on a web indexing project. Is it apporpriate to send a job > posting for a web indexer to the list? Thank you. Absolutely! Someone will probably forward it to WINDMAIL, too. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:42:02 EDT Reply-To: ALINDBLOM@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Question re: capitalizing I would appreciate any responses to this question by tomorrow morning: I will begin an index tomorrow morning for a new client who does not seem to have experience working with indexers. She has no style guidelines and said the way I did the sample indexes I sent to her would be fine. In those indexes, I capitalized ALL main headings. Since then, I have noticed that most indexes, including those for Mulvaney's book, Wellisch's book, and Chicago 14th, capitalize only proper nouns. Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I recommend to the client that I cap proper nouns only? Thank you, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:48:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Spern Subject: Re: Indexing job for beginner Paul: We just spoke . . . here is all the pertinent information. Karen Spern Ahimsa Media 771A Union Street #3 Brooklyn, NY 11215 Tel: 718.789.5873 Fax: 718.623.8459 email: kspern@bestweb.net I do database and image indexing professionally full-time. I also index books specifically computer science and political science. I have an MLS in Information Science, a BA in Political Philosophy, and 5 years experience in the indexing field. Thanks for your time and encouragement. Sincerely, Karen -----Original Message----- From: Paul Kish To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Monday, April 26, 1999 12:59 PM Subject: Indexing job for beginner >Dear List, > >I'm in a conflict with assignments. All my regular pals are busy, and >can't take any more jobs, so I'm looking for an indexer who'll take this >manuscript off my hands, and who could then submit the work as their own. > >The manuscript is a series of papers on Government and Legal Relationships. > Interesting, really, in a dry sort of way. Expectations of editor are for >minimal exploration of the material, and an index from a similar >publication is available. Pay is not great, but adequate. Unfortunately, >the job starts NOW, hopefully. Someone would need to come to my home today >or tomorrow at the latest and get the pages. I'm about 10 minutes south of >Santa Rosa. > >Please phone (707) 586-2694. Thanks, > >Paul > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:43:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing In-Reply-To: >Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I recommend to the >client that I cap proper nouns only? Left to my own devices, I prefer not to cap main headings unless they are proper nouns. Capping prevents readers of the index being able to distinguish between, for example, Turkey (the country) and turkey (the bird), Disabled (persons, culture) and disabled (as in disabled hardware, disabled car), etc. If your client has no style sheet or preferences, I wouldn't even ask her about this. Just do it. If she questions it when you turn it in, you can either explain why you chose not to cap, or change it if she prefers the caps after all. Martha BWI ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:02:00 EDT Reply-To: ALINDBLOM@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing In a message dated 4/26/99 4:08:05 PM EST, maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us writes: << I'm going to assume you don't really mean "all caps." Main heads in FULL CAPITALS are rare except in legal indexes (the kind I do). >> Yes, thank you. I did mean every main heading capped, not every letter capped. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:05:06 EDT Reply-To: ALINDBLOM@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing In a message dated 4/26/99 5:00:49 PM EST, index@TELEPORT.COM writes: << If your client has no style sheet or preferences, I wouldn't even ask her about this. Just do it. If she questions it when you turn it in, you can either explain why you chose not to cap, or change it if she prefers the caps after all. Martha BWI >> I thought about that, but I believe capitalizing is the one thing Sky Index won't change automatically. I would have to go back in and change each line manually. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:15:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing In-Reply-To: <199904262046.NAA11016@mail.mcn.org> >Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I recommend to the >client that I cap proper nouns only? I personally prefer capping only proper nouns, because I think that yields more information to the user. However, many presses still follow the style of capitalizing every Main entry, and Chicago style allows for such if preferred. In this case, since you have control of the index style, I would choose to cap only proper nouns. Given the circumstances, you could easily just prepare the index in that manner and then include in your cover letter the information that this is the preferred method and so you've given them the most modern style, and leave it at that. Or, call the editor back and tell him or her this, but don't worry about it, because they clearly prefer you to establish the style. My experience is that the argument about it rendering more information works in virtually all cases where no house style exists, or there is equivocation in style. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:27:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: off-grid In-Reply-To: <199904261942.MAA00358@mail.mcn.org> There exists a publication, put out by a company called Real Goods, called *The Solar Living Sourcebook*. If you search the Web on the company name you will find their Web site. The book is published every couple of years and contains enormous amounts of information about how to figure out what you need to set yourself up with alternative energy sources. It details products available, prices, and how they are used and put together in systems. It is an excellent educational tool. This large-format, big paperback costs about about $25, I believe. I currently live out in the country but have grid power. Eventually we'll have hydroelectricity from the year-round creek on the property. The biggest issue with living truly out in the country, that I have found, is courier deliveries and getting packages to couriers. Overnight shipping is trickier from out here, and there is no Saturday service from FedEx, for instance. Other issues, even on the grid, are power outages and phone quirkiness. Also, we once considered land that had no phone service, and found that the idea of doing all business by cell phone was prohibitive. Finding that compromise location, whatever it turns out to consist of, is important. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:38:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith W. Kip" Subject: Changing case in SKY I am sorry to have lost the name of the person asking the questio= n -- we have a brand new computer with a new version of CompuServe and I = managed to delete the message instead of saving it . Six -year-old habit= s are difficult to break. Anyway, I looked in my manual and SKY will change case. I just tried it. It's on page 45 of my manual. = And anytime an editor doen't specify style I grin and do it the w= ay I like. I have found that if they don't specifiy, they don't seem to car= e. Judy Kip ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:17:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing Debbie wrote: >Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I recommend to the >client that I cap proper nouns only? > > This topic just went around a few months ago. At the time I was going to point out that I seem to recall the British standards group took a very strong stance against the practice of all initial caps; I'm sure someone could correct me or further elucidate their stance. I use lower case except for proper nouns whenever I can. My chemistry and biochemistry authors seem to be holdouts for the traditional all initial caps form. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: "Newby" Questions In-Reply-To: <199904250404.XAA06878@a.mx.execpc.com> Excellent questions, Jerry! >1. You receive a call from a client/publisher and decide to take the job >after discussing the type of index, money, deadlines, etc. Are most jobs >initialized by a phone call? If it is a new client, is it handled different= ly? Most of my jobs start with a phone call. A few of my old clients prefer to contact me via e-mail. The main thing I do differently with new clients is ask more questions (about style preferences, delivery format, etc.), and I'm more likely to send them a contract to sign. If it's a publisher I haven't worked with before, I ask if they have an independent-contractor form they'll need me to sign (speeds up payment later). > >2. You receive the proof sheets (is this what you are sent and is the whole >book sent at once?) in the mail (?) Fed Ex (?) within a few days (?) and >start work. (I am unsure of exactly how that process works as you can see.)= I >have heard of some situations where "sample" proof sheets are sent. Is this= a >good idea for every job? If so, how does that work? My clients (mostly academic presses) send me page proofs and send 'em all at once. They use mostly Fed Ex, sometimes UPS. How soon they send it really depends on how far ahead they planned, whether their first choice of indexer fell through, whether their author surprised them by suddenly requesting an indexer--you name it. So, sometimes the editor has pages to send me the next day, sometimes 3 weeks from the initial phone call. Sometimes a client will send a sample chapter (if there's time), so I can get a feel for the material, what fee would be appropriate, or whatever. I don't index any of the sample stuff, however, because the page breaks may change later. > >3. Assuming everything goes according to the initial interview & schedule (= no >surprises in the sheets, etc.) and you do the index on time...then what? I return the finished index by e-mail (assuming the clients is OK with that; otherwise, Fed Ex), along with a cover letter that includes notes about my approach to the index (i.e., explanations about any choices I made that the editor or the author might raise a question about--if anyone wants more details about this, I can post some examples), queries, and any typos I found. I then snail mail my invoice and tell my computer to let me know when a month has passed (in case I haven't been paid by then). Then I add that book to my r=E9sum=E9. Then I go buy myself something expensive--not! > >4. I assume the finished index is sent back via mail and/or electronically >(e-mail). Do you also always send a hard copy of the index (a printed copy)= ? >Do you send back the proof sheets? Do you send your invoice then and are yo= u >paid within a certain time limit? Do some publishers have a certain time of >month that they "cut" checks? (I think there was a discussion on payment in >the recent past.) Do you take other jobs from this same publisher before th= e >invoice is paid? (Stupid question I guess...if you want to work.) I almost never send a hard copy. Most of my clients know that as long as the file attachment comes through OK electronically, they don't need a hard copy from me. They can print their own if they need one for editing purposes. Only one client has ever asked to have the proofs back; I would send them back only if they're requested. Most of my clients have been really good about paying within a month, bless them! With my established clients, I would certainly accept more work even while I'm waiting payment for previous work; jobs overlap too much not to. With new clients, I'd argue with myself about it, but I'd probably still do it. However, if a month had already past, and the client called me with another project, I'd accept it only on the condition that I receive payment for the first project right away. > >5. What if it is a new client...do you ask for references and/or credit >report, etc.? If the new client is a publisher or an author, I usually use a contract. If it's an academic press, I normally wouldn't bother with a contract, just take my chances. With authors, I always use a contract. Some indexers ask for some portion of the fee up front; I have never done that, although there have been 2 or 3 times I'd wished I had. I think references and/or credit report aren't a bad idea at all for new clients. Have any of you done that? > >Putting these questions down in writing has hepled me realize I may know a >little more of the process than I thought, but I am still insecure about th= e >procedure and appreciate the input, if for no other reason, than to help >myself and possibly other "newbies" overcome the "fear of the unknown." If = my >questions are unclear, forgive me, I am trying to put down my own anxious >feelings in order to "nip in the bud" some of the unforeseen things that ca= n >happen. I know there are a lot of people on this list and am not trying to >overcrowd the mail, but I was hoping for just a generic "day in the life" >type answer for those that may have time to answer. I think your questions are right on the mark, and I'm sure other newcomers are wondering some of the same things. > >I hope I am not asking too much at once and I hope I am not asking "stupid" >questions. Thank you for your wonderful collective wisdom once again!! The only stupid question I can think of is "What's the phone number for 911?" Please keep asking your questions! Newcomers and old-timers alike learn from this kind of exchange. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 04:46:11 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing Martha (Back Words Indexing) wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Webb Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing In-Reply-To: <01204592154509@crossprod.co.uk> Debbie, I just so happen to have a copy of BS ISO999:1996, "Information and documentation - Guidelines for the content, organization and presentation of indexes" in front of me. To quote section 7.2.2.3, Orthography: "Unless the orthography of the language of the document, for example German, requires otherwise, headings other than proper names should begin with a lower-case letter since the user can lose both information and time if all headings begin with an upper-case letter." I hope that helps. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of > indexer@INETCOM.NET > Sent: 27 April 1999 02:18 > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing > > > Debbie wrote: > > >Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I > recommend to the > >client that I cap proper nouns only? > > > > > > This topic just went around a few months ago. At the time I was going to > point out that I seem to recall the British standards group took a very > strong stance against the practice of all initial caps; I'm sure someone > could correct me or further elucidate their stance. I use lower case > except for proper nouns whenever I can. My chemistry and biochemistry > authors seem to be holdouts for the traditional all initial caps form. > > Kevin Mulrooney > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dyslexics of the world untie! > > First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 > 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net > Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:38:33 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing In-Reply-To: I am strongly in favour of only using caps for proper nouns for the reasons other people have given. I was interested to see the index to a book on usability edited by Jakob Nielson (a well-known Internet usability expert who writes a free electronic newsletter) used all initial caps, and I thought to myself "We may be expert in some areas and not others". Glenda. > >Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I > recommend to the > >client that I cap proper nouns only? > > I personally prefer capping only proper nouns, because I think that yields > more information to the user. However, many presses still follow the style > of capitalizing every Main entry, and Chicago style allows for such if > preferred. In this case, since you have control of the index > style, I would > choose to cap only proper nouns. Given the circumstances, you could easily > just prepare the index in that manner and then include in your > cover letter > the information that this is the preferred method and so you've given them > the most modern style, and leave it at that. Or, call the editor back and > tell him or her this, but don't worry about it, because they > clearly prefer > you to establish the style. My experience is that the argument about it > rendering more information works in virtually all cases where no house > style exists, or there is equivocation in style. > > Best, > Victoria > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:59:05 EDT Reply-To: SHughes512@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: capitalizing In a message dated 99-04-27 03:13:53 EDT, you write: > I agree with this, but I find that a number of my editors, (mostly science) prefer the headings to start with caps. On a side note, in Cindex, you can create your index capitalizing only the proper nouns and change to capitalizing the main heading at the click of a button. (and back again). Since I discovered that, I prepare every index the same way and add caps later if required. It makes fewer keystrokes. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:09:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Barkin I'm working on a web indexing project for The Vanguard Group in Frazer, PA. We're looking for a web indexing specialist to join our Online Services team as a full-time, onsite employee, 37.5 hours/week. Here's the job description: Department-Specific Functions Create and maintain the thesaurus (list of keywords) for Online Services' content repository; ensure that the thesaurus is complete, up-to-date, and meets all Online Services needs. Review each piece of content generated by Online Services' editorial unit (some 20 writers and editors); evaluate each piece of content for meaning, purpose, context, poisitioning; determine "reusability" of each piece of content; once evaluation is completed, assign appropriate keywords from thesaurus to each piece of content. Serve as an indexing resource for Online Services; become fasmiliar with the latest information architecture developments that would be appropriate for indexing text; orient new Online Services employees to indexing and the content repository. General Requirements Education: a college degree (B.A. or M.A.) in Library Science of Information Science & Technology (or work equivalent) Experience: At least 3 years' proven experience in indexing or cataloging information, and in maintaining an information catalog. Specific Skills Superior attention to detail An ability to follow explicit rules consistently Excellent oral and written communication skills An aptitude for conducting research. An ability to scan content for long periods of time. A familiarity with HTML. An ability to work under erxtreme dealdine pressure., An ability to work with various mdepartments and lkevels of management. Strong interpersonal skills and a professional demeanor. A knoweldge of the World Wide Web and information architecture. A knowledge of financial services industrym particularly mutual funds. Hope to hear from you with resume! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:51:55 EDT Reply-To: ALINDBLOM@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Thank you for your responses Thank you EVERYONE for all of the information on capitalizing main headings. I am going to cap just the proper nouns, with a note to my client that it is generally the preferred styled and has advantages. I also want to correct a mistake of mine. Sky Index (p.45 of the manual) will change lowercase to uppercase and upper to lower. Thank you Judy for letting me know about that. With appreciation, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:31:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" --=====================_925237893==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resume attached! Very interested! MJB At 09:09 AM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote: >I'm working on a web indexing project for The Vanguard Group in Frazer, PA. > We're looking for a web indexing specialist to join our Online > Services team as a full-time, onsite employee, 37.5 hours/week. > Here's the job description: > > > >Department-Specific Functions > > Create and maintain the thesaurus (list of keywords) for Online > Services' content repository; ensure that the thesaurus is complete, > up-to-date, and meets all Online Services needs. > > Review each piece of content generated by Online Services' editorial > unit (some 20 writers and editors); evaluate each piece of content for > meaning, purpose, context, poisitioning; determine "reusability" of > each piece of content; once evaluation is completed, assign appropriate > keywords from thesaurus to each piece of content. > > Serve as an indexing resource for Online Services; become fasmiliar with > the latest information architecture developments that would be > appropriate for indexing text; orient new Online Services employees to > indexing and the content repository. > > > >General Requirements > > > >Education: a college degree (B.A. or M.A.) in Library Science of >Information Science & Technology (or work equivalent) > >Experience: At least 3 years' proven experience in indexing or cataloging >information, and in maintaining an information catalog. > >Specific Skills > > Superior attention to detail > > An ability to follow explicit rules consistently > > Excellent oral and written communication skills > > An aptitude for conducting research. > > An ability to scan content for long periods of time. > > A familiarity with HTML. > > An ability to work under erxtreme dealdine pressure., > > An ability to work with various mdepartments and lkevels of management. > > Strong interpersonal skills and a professional demeanor. > > A knoweldge of the World Wide Web and information architecture. > > A knowledge of financial services industrym 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--=====================_925237893==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:16:57 EDT Reply-To: SHughes512@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Help request - orthopaedics thesaurus Good afternoon all, I urgently need to find a thesaurus for the terms used in orthopaedics. Has anyone seen one? Online or in print is fine. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:50:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Sherayko Subject: Submitting Periodical Indexing Proposals Hi all! If one were developing an unsolicited proposal to persuade a periodical publisher to publish a cumulative index to the periodical (and to hire you to do it), what elements would you include? How would you approach it? Would you talk about the benefits of an index? How much detail would you initially give about costs? Thanks in advance for letting me tap into the collective wisdom of this group! Sincerely, Carolyn C. Sherayko...........csherayko@centralva.net Sherayko Indexing Service 401 Norfolk Ave. Lynchburg, VA 24503........PH: 804.847.8893 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:52:15 EDT Reply-To: MHam62@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Hammitt Subject: USDA class question I have been suscribed to the list for several months and have heard some people refer to the USDA indexing class. There are 2 classes offered and I am curious to know if people are taking just one or both of the classes. Are both necessary? Warmly, Mary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: archives; biblical texts Please forgive me for asking two questions that have been discussed aplenty, but I'm having trouble accessing the Index-L archives. So of course my first question is about accessing the archives. I'm unable to get to the Web site, which seems to require gopher. If I want to access them by sending a command via e-mail, what's the correct address to send to? (I think I understand what command to send.) My second question--the one I was hoping to resolve by searching the archives--is about sorting order for biblical texts. How do you index books that start with numbers, like 1 Corinthians, 2 Peter, etc.? I've already looked in _Chicago Manual of Style_, _Indexing from A to Z_, and _Indexing Books_. If you found an answer (that I missed) in one of those sources, could you please give me a page number? Thanks, y'all. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:41:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Bishop Subject: Re: OFF GRID This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01BE909A.70A24A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mara; I have had some experience with running electrical components = from "other than grid" power sources.... The most important things to know when using a battery system to = power an inverter are (1) the batteries must be kept up on charge and = (2) the inverter (power converter) MUST have a pure sine wave....if the = inverter produces a square wave it will kill electronics like TV's...it = has to do with the 60 cycles (I am assuming you are in the U.S.----other = countries use different voltages and cycles per sec) that power the = electronics. Pure sine wave inverters are very expensive.....many years ago I = found and purchased a "rotary inverter" from an US Army helicopter...it = takes 24 volts DC to power it, I also got six batteries from the FAA = air traffic control back-up power station...these were taken off-line = because of low specs, etc but fine for home use...the batteries were = eight volt 450 amps each, I wired three in series then wired the two = banks of three together in parallel making one huge 24volt 900amp = battery....we ran a large RV refrigerator (12volt) and our lighting = direct from the batteries (with fused circuits in line) and powered the = rotary inverter from the 24 volt lines. The inverter powered the TV. The = battery bank would hold enough charge to run everything for about two = weeks, it required about 48 hours to recharge from a heavy-duty, 24volt = 100 amp commercial battery charger powered by a portable generator. Additionally, I would definitely have a UPS/surge protector for your = computer system. If you are only going to use a portable generator to recharge = batteries, you will spend more for gasoline than the "grid" electricity = would cost you. Have you looked into solar and wind powered charging = systems??? also very expensive. Sorry to be so windy on the list, but a couple of others on the list = were also interested in "other than grid power." E/M direct if additional info is wanted...I'll try to answer any = questions. Charles ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01BE909A.70A24A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mara;
        I=20 have had some experience with running electrical components from = "other=20 than grid" power sources....
        The=20 most important things to know when using a battery system to power an = inverter=20 are (1) the batteries must be kept up on charge and (2) the inverter = (power=20 converter) MUST have a pure sine wave....if the inverter produces a = square wave=20 it will kill electronics like TV's...it has to do with the 60 cycles (I = am=20 assuming you are in the U.S.----other countries use different voltages = and=20 cycles per sec) that power the electronics.
      Pure = sine wave=20 inverters are very expensive.....many years ago I found and purchased a=20 "rotary inverter" from an US Army helicopter...it takes 24 = volts DC to=20 power it, I also got six batteries from the FAA  air traffic = control=20 back-up power station...these were taken off-line because of low specs, = etc but=20 fine for home use...the batteries were eight volt 450 amps each, I wired = three=20 in series then wired the two banks of three together in parallel making = one huge=20 24volt 900amp battery....we ran a large RV refrigerator (12volt) and our = lighting direct from the batteries (with fused circuits in line) and = powered the=20 rotary inverter from the 24 volt lines. The inverter powered the TV. The = battery=20 bank would hold enough charge to run everything for about two weeks, it = required=20 about 48 hours to recharge from a heavy-duty, 24volt 100 amp commercial = battery=20 charger powered by a portable generator.
  Additionally, I would = definitely have a=20 UPS/surge protector for your computer system.
  If you are only going to use = a portable=20 generator to recharge batteries, you will spend more for gasoline than = the=20 "grid" electricity would cost you.  Have you looked into = solar=20 and wind powered charging systems??? also very expensive.
   Sorry to be so windy on = the list,=20 but a couple of others on the list were also interested in "other = than grid=20 power."
   E/M direct if = additional info is=20 wanted...I'll try to answer any questions.
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =       =20 Charles
------=_NextPart_000_005A_01BE909A.70A24A80-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:44:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Due to personal and family reasons, Susan Klement has decided not to attend the Indianpolis meeting. Therefore, her workshop on open/closed indexing has to be canceled. I was unable to find anyone who feels that they could give a workshop on this topic. But to try to accommodate those of you with an open time frame (Thursday afternoon 2:00 to 5:15), I looked for another workshop that would be of general interest. Enid Zafren, an experienced workshop leader and former board member, has agreed to give a workshop during this time period. Polishing the Product Learn how to make your index shine with a thorough final edit. The workshop will include a checklist of steps for reviewing the index as well as a hands-on exercise. Solutions to typical situations created when indexing will be discussed in addition to tips on how software can help you avoid embarrassing flaws. Presenter: Enid Zafran is the Director of Indexing Services at the Bureau of National Affairs (BNA) in Washington, D.C., where she oversees a staff of 45 in-house indexers. She also has her own freelance indexing business, Indexing Partners, teaches indexing at EEI in Alexander, VA., and is the editor of Starting an Indexing Business. Costs for this workshop is $55 for members and $65 for nonmembers. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:31:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" --=====================_925237893==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resume attached! Very interested! MJB At 09:09 AM 4/27/99 -0400, you wrote: >I'm working on a web indexing project for The Vanguard Group in Frazer, PA. > We're looking for a web indexing specialist to join our Online > Services team as a full-time, onsite employee, 37.5 hours/week. > Here's the job description: > > > >Department-Specific Functions > > Create and maintain the thesaurus (list of keywords) for Online > Services' content repository; ensure that the thesaurus is complete, > up-to-date, and meets all Online Services needs. > > Review each piece of content generated by Online Services' editorial > unit (some 20 writers and editors); evaluate each piece of content for > meaning, purpose, context, poisitioning; determine "reusability" of > each piece of content; once evaluation is completed, assign appropriate > keywords from thesaurus to each piece of content. > > Serve as an indexing resource for Online Services; become fasmiliar with > the latest information architecture developments that would be > appropriate for indexing text; orient new Online Services employees to > indexing and the content repository. > > > >General Requirements > > > >Education: a college degree (B.A. or M.A.) in Library Science of >Information Science & Technology (or work equivalent) > >Experience: At least 3 years' proven experience in indexing or cataloging >information, and in maintaining an information catalog. > >Specific Skills > > Superior attention to detail > > An ability to follow explicit rules consistently > > Excellent oral and written communication skills > > An aptitude for conducting research. > > An ability to scan content for long periods of time. > > A familiarity with HTML. > > An ability to work under erxtreme dealdine pressure., > > An ability to work with various mdepartments and lkevels of management. > > Strong interpersonal skills and a professional demeanor. > > A knoweldge of the World Wide Web and information architecture. > > A knowledge of financial services industrym particularly mutual funds. > > > >Hope to hear from you with resume! > > --=====================_925237893==_ Content-Type: application/msword; name="indexres.doc"; x-mac-type="42494E41"; x-mac-creator="4D535744" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="indexres.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAADgAAAAAAAAAA EAAADwAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAA0AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////c 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--=====================_925237893==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:09:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:55:37 -0500 Carol Roberts writes: >My second question--the one I was hoping to resolve by searching the >archives--is about sorting order for biblical texts. How do you index >books that start with numbers, like 1 Corinthians, 2 Peter, etc.? When I do Scripture Indexes, the books are placed in the order they are found in the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc. When there are books placed in a Subject Index, I use the rule that says to alphabetize numbers as they are said: 1 Corinthians 2 Peter Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing BUILDING A BETTER BOOK! indexer@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts In-Reply-To: <199904272055.QAA12639@carriage.chesco.com> At 11:55 AM 4/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >Please forgive me for asking two questions that have been discussed >aplenty, but I'm having trouble accessing the Index-L archives. > >So of course my first question is about accessing the archives. I'm unable >to get to the Web site, which seems to require gopher. If I want to access >them by sending a command via e-mail, what's the correct address to send >to? (I think I understand what command to send.) Hi I just tried to access the web site for the archives: http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html and had no difficulty while using Netscape. The search process also seems to be functioning now. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:05:40 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts Carol, I also do what Shirley does, put the books in the order found in the Bible. One thing though, you should check with the editor what version of the Bible they prefer. The St. James Version and the Catholic Bible, as well as some of the newer versions do not always have the books in the same order. So, just be sure to check with the editor. If they have no opinion then probably you're safe using the St. James version as that is still the most familiar version of the Bible. Best, Sylvia Shirley K Warkentin wrote: > On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:55:37 -0500 Carol Roberts > writes: > > >My second question--the one I was hoping to resolve by searching the > >archives--is about sorting order for biblical texts. How do you index > >books that start with numbers, like 1 Corinthians, 2 Peter, etc.? > > When I do Scripture Indexes, the books are placed in the order they are > found in the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc. > > When there are books placed in a Subject Index, I use the rule that says > to alphabetize numbers as they are said: > > 1 Corinthians > 2 Peter > > Shirley Warkentin > Cornerstone Indexing > BUILDING A BETTER BOOK! > indexer@juno.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:18:41 EDT Reply-To: ALINDBLOM@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: ? about index in progress I have another question on the index I asked the capitalization question on: This is a scholarly book (written for academics by academics), but not an academic publisher. There are 10 pages of author references at the back of this 108-page book. Throughout the book there are references to the authors in the following two formats: According to Barsky (1995, pp. 26 & 189)... and ...if you were an objective outsider (Hinton and Schaeffer, 1994, pp. 28) My intitial question to myself was, should I index the cited authors? I believe Chicago 14 says some publishers (industries) do and some don't. I can't find it in Mulvany or Wellisch. My client doesn't know and is leaving it up to me. My thinking is that even though the authors are listed in the back reference section, the readers (professors and their students) might want to know where and in what context the authors are in the text. So I am indexing all referenced authors. Am I on the right track? Is this acceptable style? I am on a tight deadline, so have begun already. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:37:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts Excuse me, but don't you mean the King James version? > -----Original Message----- > From: Sylvia Coates [SMTP:scoates@SLIP.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 8:06 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts > > Carol, > > I also do what Shirley does, put the books in the order found in the > Bible. > One thing though, you should check with the editor what version of the > Bible > they prefer. The St. James Version and the Catholic Bible, as well as some > of the newer versions do not always have the books in the same order. So, > just be sure to check with the editor. If they have no opinion then > probably > you're safe using the St. James version as that is still the most familiar > version of the Bible. > > Best, > Sylvia > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:14:56 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts Yes, you are correct. Too much indexing, reading, etc. lately :-). Sylvia Coates Toni Williams TPG/SG wrote: > Excuse me, but don't you mean the King James version? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sylvia Coates [SMTP:scoates@SLIP.NET] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 8:06 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts > > > > Carol, > > > > I also do what Shirley does, put the books in the order found in the > > Bible. > > One thing though, you should check with the editor what version of the > > Bible > > they prefer. The St. James Version and the Catholic Bible, as well as some > > of the newer versions do not always have the books in the same order. So, > > just be sure to check with the editor. If they have no opinion then > > probably > > you're safe using the St. James version as that is still the most familiar > > version of the Bible. > > > > Best, > > Sylvia > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:14:29 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ralph REID Subject: Re: ? about index in progress Debra If there are multiple references to authors in the text (that is, if an author is cited in more than one place in the text) I would definitely index them. The reasoning for this is that certainly the reader can see them listed in the bibliography, but might also wish to refer directly to the context in which they are cited. The exception to this might be where the citations are shown in full as footnotes to the pages on which the references occur, but even then if is usually useful to bring all the occurrences of a cited work together in an index. Regards Ralph Reid Sydney Australia -----Original Message----- From: Debra Lindblom To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Wednesday, 28 April 1999 8:20 AM Subject: ? about index in progress >I have another question on the index I asked the capitalization question on: > >This is a scholarly book (written for academics by academics), but not an >academic publisher. There are 10 pages of author references at the back of >this 108-page book. Throughout the book there are references to the authors >in the following two formats: > >According to Barsky (1995, pp. 26 & 189)... > >and > >...if you were an objective outsider (Hinton and Schaeffer, 1994, pp. 28) > >My intitial question to myself was, should I index the cited authors? I >believe Chicago 14 says some publishers (industries) do and some don't. I >can't find it in Mulvany or Wellisch. My client doesn't know and is leaving >it up to me. > >My thinking is that even though the authors are listed in the back reference >section, the readers (professors and their students) might want to know where >and in what >context the authors are in the text. So I am indexing all referenced authors. > >Am I on the right track? Is this acceptable style? > >I am on a tight deadline, so have begun already. > >Debbie > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:33:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: The Welcomes Subject: Re: USDA class question Gee, I've had such fun "listening" to the conversations on this list, and now there's actually something I'm qualified to answer! Okay, maybe "qualified" isn't quite the case. I just started the basic indexing course through USDA, and in fact haven't yet received my first lesson back. How long does it usually take, I wonder? I've got two more lessons waiting in the wings, so to speak. Since I'm just beginning, I thought it best to stick with the basic course. I would assume you need some sort of indexing background (prerequisite?) prior to taking the the other course, but I don't know for certain. Well, I guess I haven't really helped you much. But I'm sure others have more info than I do. Laura > > I have been suscribed to the list for several months and have heard some > people refer to the USDA indexing class. There are 2 classes offered and I am > curious to know if people are taking just one or both of the classes. Are > both necessary? > > Warmly, > Mary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:03:33 +0800 Reply-To: Ling Heang Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ling Heang I wonder do I get to read the message that I send to Index-L? I haven't seen the last two I sent and I wonder how to change that setting? Regards, Ling Heang ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:11:02 EDT Reply-To: BECohen653@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: biblical texts (Hebrew) Re: order of books of the Bible: And let's not forget that books on Jewish theology require a different sort order. If anyone needs that list, I could dig up the Web site I downloaded it from a few years ago.... it differs from the sort order in the Chicago Manual of Style and is correct for books about Judaica. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:41:19 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing << >Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I recommend to the >client that I cap proper nouns only? >> Most of my clients want all caps; two want only proper nouns capped. What this means to me is that either style is generally acceptable. If she seems to want you to make the decisions, go ahead; if she's wanting to approve each one, ask her. These days I index everything lower-case except proper nouns and then have Macrex restyle it at the end. Flipping is much easier and I save the shift keystroke with every main entry. Do Mi (at Vicky Agee's house in New Mexico!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:21:59 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Submitting Periodical Indexing Proposals In-Reply-To: I have been thinking of doing this for the journal most closely related to my undergrad studies. I would get the last few issues and create a sample so that they could see what the product would be like. I wouldn't discuss costs in the first letter, but I would work them out roughly so that if they asked I would have an immediate (although probably approximate) response. Glenda. > Hi all! > If one were developing an unsolicited proposal to persuade a > periodical > publisher to publish a cumulative index to the periodical (and to hire you > to do it), what elements would you include? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:30:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts In-Reply-To: <199904272207.RAA02713@shooter.bluemarble.net> The most commonly used Protestant version of the Bible is generally called the King James version, after the English monarch at the time the project was completed. However, he was formally declared a Saint of the religion of which he was the head, as had been his predecessors like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. Marvant Duhon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:40:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: The Welcomes Subject: Re: USDA class question Hi Stephanie. Boy, I sure hope things move a little quicker once our first lessons get squared away. I was kind of hoping to finish the course before the alloted year! Plus, summer's coming and my kids will be out of school, which means less study time. Dang. I haven't filled out the "target dates" yet, since right now it all depends on the instructor and mail delivery and, as I just mentioned, summertime. But I'm really enjoying the course so far, and I've been playing with Cindex to get the hang of using it. Anyway, good luck with the class! Laura ---------- > From: Mike & Stephanie Reymann > To: lwelcome@TOGETHER.NET > Subject: Re: USDA class question > Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 8:05 AM > > From: Stephanie Reymann GreenerGrass@cwix.com > > Laura, > Hi! > I also just started to take the USDA Basic Indexing course as well. I > turned in my first lesson 3 weeks ago. For some reason USDA sat on it for > 2 weeks before turning it over to the instructor. They also charged my VISA > twice. Administration must be a "challenge" for them. I think it is going > to be a long process! At this rate it will take 10 months but hopefully it > will go faster once I am communicating directly with the instructor. I am > enjoying the class so far. I have already finished lesson 2. It's hard to > refrain from working ahead! > > Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:02:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: Index-L archives Hi, The ASI web site has up-to-date instructions on accessing the index-l archive via either a web browser or by email. Gopher is no longer in the picture. Click over to http://www.asindexing.org/ and choose "Resources for Indexers" and then "Online Discussion Groups." Let me know if you have trouble. Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster, ASI (spam-proof return address; remove NOSPAM to email me directly) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:04:22 EDT Reply-To: TShere7566@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Golden Gate Chapter--May meeting ASI GOLDEN GATE CHAPTER MEETING Friday, May 14, 1999 10:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. TOUR AND PROGRAM AT THE REGIONAL PARKS BOTANIC GARDEN, TILDEN PARK, BERKELEY followed by ANNUAL MEETING AND INSTALLATION OF OFFICERS Calling all indexers with an interest in plants! Nancy Mulvany has organized a great program for our May meeting. We will meet at the Regional Parks Botanic Garden, Tilden Park, in the Berkeley Hills, where Nancy is a docent. The 10-acre garden, founded in 1940, is dedicated to the collection, growth, display and preservation of California's native plants. The garden is divided into sections representing distinctive natural areas of the state. For more information about the garden, you can check the website at www.nativeplants.org. We will meet at the Visitor's Center in the Botanic Garden at 10:30 a.m. The program will begin with a brief talk from Garden Supervisor Joe Dahl about how the garden keeps track of its inventory. Then Nancy will discuss reference books for horticultural and botanical indexing projects--she'll have examples with her. We'll have some discussion about the special problems and issues posed by plant-related indexing projects. From 11:45 - 12:30 we'll tour the garden in small docent-led groups. Wear good walking shoes. At 12:30 we'll eat our brown-bag lunch--on the lawn, if the weather is nice (be prepared to sit on the grass), or in the auditorium if it is not. After we eat we'll conduct the Chapter's annual meeting and install our newly-elected officers. A meeting of the new Board of Directors will follow. Please join us! The charge to attend is $8 for ASI members and members of affiliated indexing societies, $10 for nonmembers. You may pay at the meeting, but you must register in advance (by May 10) so we can arrange for enough docents to lead the tour. Please contact Therese Shere at tshere7566@aol.com by Monday, May 10. Bring a brown bag lunch and be prepared to eat outside on the grass. DIRECTIONS: From Highway 80/580, heading either direction: Take the Buchanan/Albany exit just north of Berkeley. This puts you on Buchanan St. going east. At San Pablo Ave., continue straight ahead; now you are on Marin Ave. Take Marin all the way up, up, up to Grizzly Peak Blvd. Turn right on Grizzly Peak, then left on Shasta Road. Now you'll be going downhill on Shasta; continue to Wildcat Canyon Road. Turn right on Wildcat Canyon and continue to the Garden, at the intersection of Wildcat Canyon and South Park Drive. There is a small parking lot on your right, the entrance to the Garden is on your left. From Highway 24, east of the Caldecott Tunnel: Take the Fish Ranch Road exit and follow Fish Ranch to Grizzly Peak Blvd. Turn right on Grizzly Peak. Continue 1.5 miles to South Park Drive (there is no street sign; just past the Steam Train, watch for a directional sign to the Brazil Building). Turn right on South Park Drive and continue 1.5 miles to the end. Turn left on Wildcat Canyon Road and park in the lot on your left. If the Garden parking lot is full, go up the hill to the Brazil Building and park up there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:25:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Stump the group ... Who is the administrator for this group? I have a question about the instructions which I received when I subscribed. to-wit: " ... You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF INDEX-L" command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). ..." Why are two addresses listed? Which one do we use? Thanks! MJB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:40:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" I would forward this to the listserv adminstrator, but I don't know who it is. Does any one know: I have tried to no avail to send commands to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET and they bounce back undelivered. Do I place a command in the "Subject" line or in the body of the email? I have been putting them in the body of the email. Thanks, MJB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:48:57 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PCONNOLLY Subject: Re: Index-l address Hi Jessie, Try sending the request to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Leave the subject line blank and put the command in the body of the message. Phil *************************** pconnolly@nationalarchives.ie Philomena Connolly Archivist National Archives Bishop Street Dublin 8 Ireland Phone: +353-1-4072 300 Fax: +353-1-4072 333 > -----Original Message----- > From: M. Jessie Barczak [SMTP:jbarczak@CQ.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 3:40 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: > > I would forward this to the listserv adminstrator, but I don't know > who it > is. Does any one know: > > > I have tried to no avail to send commands to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET > and > they bounce back undelivered. > > Do I place a command in the "Subject" line or in the body of the > email? I > have been putting them in the body of the email. > > Thanks, > > MJB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:54:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes M. Jessie Barczak wrote: > > I would forward this to the listserv adminstrator, but I don't know who it > is. Does any one know: > > I have tried to no avail to send commands to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET and > they bounce back undelivered. > > Do I place a command in the "Subject" line or in the body of the email? I > have been putting them in the body of the email. > I believe the problem is BITNET. Try using LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 651-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:53:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Stump the group ... At 10:25 AM 4/28/1999 -0400, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: >" ... You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF INDEX-L" >command to >LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). ..." > >Why are two addresses listed? Which one do we use? I don't know "why" there are two addresses, but they both should work. If one doesn't work for you, try the other one. I know at least one works, since I've sent listserv commands and they've worked. But it's been so long, I can't remember which one I used. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy At 10:40 AM 4/28/1999 -0400, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: >I have tried to no avail to send commands to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET and >they bounce back undelivered. > >Do I place a command in the "Subject" line or in the body of the email? I >have been putting them in the body of the email. Try the other address (from your previous post). Be sure you don't have an automatic signature line that is attached. Don't put anything in the subject line, or in the body of the message (except the specific command you want executed). See what the bounced back message says...why it is undeliverable. It's hard to decipher, but might give you a clue. Charlotte Skuster is our admin person, but I'm afraid I don't have her email address. Anybody??? Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:20:34 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: keith Subject: please distribute UNIVERSITY of GLASGOW DEPARTMENT OF COMPUTING SCIENCE LECTURESHIP in INFORMATION RETRIEVAL LECTURER A/B - #16,655-#29,048 PER ANNUM REF 177/99AA To strengthen an existing major research group within the Department. Visit http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/. Expected to contribute to the Department's undergraduate and postgraduate teaching, and make a significant contribution to research. In exceptional circumstances an appointment may be made at a higher level than advertised. Informal enquiries to Professor Keith van Rijsbergen, keith@dcs.gla.ac.uk. For an application pack visit http://www.gla.ac.uk/ or write quoting Ref: 177/99AA to the Recruitment Section, Personnel Services, University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ. Closing date: 21 May 1999. The Post The University invites applications for a lectureship in Information Retrieval within the Department of Computing Science. The Department has demonstrated the highest standards in both teaching and research. We are actively developing new courses, at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels, and have a thriving research community. Applicants must possess the enthusiasm and ability to fit into a dynamic academic environment, together with appropriate experience in teaching and research. The Department of Computing Science is seeking a lecturer in Information Retrieval to join a strong existing research group led by Professor Keith van Rijsbergen. The successful applicant will be expected to contribute to the Department's teaching at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels, in addition to making a significant contribution to research. In exceptional circumstances an appointment may be made at a higher level than advertised. Applicants should preferably have a strong research interest in one of the following areas: theoretical development of probabilistic and logic-based models for IR; design of multimedia IR systems based on Computer Vision and Image Processing technology; evaluation and usability of IR systems in the context of large scale experimentation. The ideal candidate will have the following attributes: * a PhD in Computing Science, preferably in one of the research areas identified above; * the ability to teach some computing science topics outwith their specialist area; * willing to undertake an active role in research student supervision within the IR group; * keen to develop their own research by seeking external research funding from the Research Councils, the EU or industry. For background about the Department's activities see http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/. 14/4/99 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:17:53 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts Dear Marvant, Thanks! Now I don't feel quite so dumb mixing up King and Saint James :-). Best, Sylvia Coates marvant duhon wrote: > The most commonly used Protestant version of the Bible is > generally called the King James version, after the English monarch at the > time the project was completed. However, he was formally declared a Saint > of the religion of which he was the head, as had been his predecessors > like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. > Marvant Duhon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:10:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Listowner's e-mail address Charlotte Skuster: skuster@binghamton.edu Karen Lane klane@digital.net klane@klane.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:33:24 EDT Reply-To: BECohen653@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: biblical texts Re: various sort orders for books of the Bible: I took my worksheet (which is a permanent placemarker in my copy of the Chicago Manual of Style, augmenting their list of abbreviations) from Encarta '95, s.v. "Bible." If you can't find it there, I will check further to track down the list I created (but the credit line I wrote to myself lists Encarta '95 as the source). I work for several Jewish publishing firms, and they are most particular about using Jewish preferences for the sort order for Bible citations. I don't work for as many different Protestant publishers, but I assume there are also clear preferences depending on the theological bent of the publisher. And when working with scholarly authors, it is always helpful to appear to know that there is an issue here. If nothing else, authors and editors will think you are well-read in this subject area. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:09:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: dictionary cross-referencing Would folks here expect that cross-references in a dictionary would be logical and/or helpful. I recognize that general dictionaries refer readers to synonyms and antonyms, but I mean actual "See also" entries. Examples: dog [definition here] See also canine hearing [definition here] See also ear red [definition here] .See also color Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:29:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erin Hartshorn Subject: sample indexes and copyright Hi - I'm just embarking on this great adventure, and am taking the USDA begining indexing course. I have two questions which are related to each other. In Mulvaney's Indexing Books, she states that unless an index is specifically created as a work for hire, it is copyrightable by the indexer. Hans Wellisch seems to disagree slightly in Indexing from A to Z, saying in his discussion on copyright that an index is created as a work for hire unless stated otherwise. Has any legal precedent been set as to whether or not the standard is that an index is created as a "work for hire"? Both authors, however, agree that an index is a separate entity from the book (or other work) to which it pertains. Does this mean that, as a beginner, I can prepare a sample index to ANY book, regardless of its public domain or copyright status, and use such a sample index to market myself? Thank yo uin advance for any clarification of these issues. -Erin Hartshorn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:10:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: sample indexes and copyright At 09:29 AM 4/28/1999 -0700, Erin Hartshorn wrote: > In Mulvaney's Indexing Books, she states that unless an index is >specifically created as a work for hire, it is copyrightable by the >indexer. Hans Wellisch seems to disagree slightly in Indexing from A to Z, >saying in his discussion on copyright that an index is created as a work >for hire unless stated otherwise. Has any legal precedent been set as to >whether or not the standard is that an index is created as a "work for >hire"? I'm not sure if this has ever been tested in court, but I tend to agree with Mulvaney on the question. Generally, ANY work not specifically made for hire belongs to the person who created it...whether it's art, or a short story, or an index. Practically speaking, this probably doesn't affect us much because few indexes we do have any value beyond the specific book they are written for. > Both authors, however, agree that an index is a separate entity >from the book (or other work) to which it pertains. Does this mean that, >as a beginner, I can prepare a sample index to ANY book, regardless of its >public domain or copyright status, and use such a sample index to market >myself? You certainly can prepare an index to any book you may wish to tackle, and use it as a sample. You own the copyright on the index; the author and/or publisher owns the copyright on the book itself. I would steer clear of any really popular book or series for which extra copyrights or trademarks may be held...such as the Star Wars books/movies. I remember there was a discussion on the list not too long ago about creating indexes to works of popular fiction, and somebody had already explored the commercial possibilities of writing such a thing for some very popular series...and discovered that the owners of the main work had already made arrangements to do it themselves (or had retained the rights to do so). Instead, choose to index books that reflect your own skills and abilities (and the subject matter you'd like to be working on), and that, if possible, are widely available enough so that an editor could check your work against the book. It's unlikely that anybody would bother to do this, but it adds a note of authenticity should the question ever come up. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:32:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Binder Subject: Re: sample indexes and copyright On 4/28/99 12:29 PM, Erin Hartshorn wrote: > In Mulvaney's Indexing Books, she states that unless an index is >specifically created as a work for hire, it is copyrightable by the >indexer. Hans Wellisch seems to disagree slightly in Indexing from A to Z, >saying in his discussion on copyright that an index is created as a work >for hire unless stated otherwise. Has any legal precedent been set as to >whether or not the standard is that an index is created as a "work for >hire"? > Both authors, however, agree that an index is a separate entity >from the book (or other work) to which it pertains. Does this mean that, >as a beginner, I can prepare a sample index to ANY book, regardless of its >public domain or copyright status, and use such a sample index to market >myself? I'm not taking sides on this one, but I'd be willing to bet money that--regardless of the legal precedents--the editors and publishers in question _believe_ that their companies own the indexes they pay you to create and that those indexes are part of the books. I'd discuss this question with the appropriate editor to make sure you're both "on the same page," so to speak. Sample indexes, of course, are a completely different matter; however, I suspect that, if asked, most publishers would not grant permission for such a marketing procedure, because they tend to be (pardon my technical jargon here) paranoid freaks when it comes to their legal rights. However, you could always just not ask for permission and hope your sample index doesn't end up on the desk of someone at the book's publisher. Maybe I'm being too cynical here. YMMV. Kate ------------------------------------- Kate Binder Prospect Hill Publishing Services kate@prospecthillpub.com / www.prospecthillpub.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:50:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts In-Reply-To: <199904280405.XAA01940@a.mx.execpc.com> >When I do Scripture Indexes, the books are placed in the order they are >found in the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc. > >When there are books placed in a Subject Index, I use the rule that says >to alphabetize numbers as they are said: I should have mentioned that the editor and author want a combined subject index, so the books have to be in alphanumeric order, rather than in the order they appear in the Bible. Thanks to all who have offered sorting schemes. I will choose one and consult with the author when he's available. When this subject was discussed last year (yes, I finally accessed the archives), another proposal was to leave the numeral out front (if that's how it appears in the text) but ignore it in sorting, e.g., place 1 Corinthians in the Cs. Thanks also for info on accessing the archives. I've now got it bookmarked. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:13:57 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: biblical texts In-Reply-To: <199904281535.SAA32258@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> At 11:33 AM 4/28/99 EDT, Barbara Cohen wrote: >I work for several Jewish publishing firms, and they are most particular >about using Jewish preferences for the sort order for Bible citations. I >don't work for as many different Protestant publishers, but I assume there >are also clear preferences depending on the theological bent of the >publisher. I'm delurking here. I'm not a professional indexer but I have a fair amount of experience compiling indexes and editing academic texts in the field of religion. Generally one follow the preference of the author. For example, most of my books have been published by Brill Academic Publishers (and in case you're wondering, I was able to help Lillian on her query about indexing style), which is non-sectarian. They don't care what order the biblical books are listed, as long as it follows an *accepted* order, either Christian or Jewish. For those who are new to this area, the sources can be quite tricky to order (especially apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, Dead Sea Scrolls and rabbinic literature). I recommend D.J.A. Clines, _The Sheffield Manual for Authors and Editors in Biblical Studies_. Sheffield (Sheffield Academic Press) 1997. Avital Dr. Avital Pinnick tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:30:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Text in subject lines Not to be a grouch, but can I request that everyone please remember to include subject text in the Subject header? I determine whether I want to open a message by subject. Because I'm compulsive, if a message has no text in this field, I HAVE to open it. :-) Thanks. Karen Field Technical Writer, Editor, and Indexer San Diego, CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:53:11 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts In-Reply-To: > The most commonly used Protestant version of the Bible is > generally called the King James version, after the English monarch at the > time the project was completed. However, he was formally declared a Saint > of the religion of which he was the head, as had been his predecessors > like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. > Marvant Duhon > Henry VIII styled himself 'Defender of the Faith' but I have not heard of him, James I or Elizabeth I being canonised. They were heads of the Church of England, which does not have formal 'saints'. I think for a saintly king one would have to go back to Edward the Confessor, but I am no historian. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:04:29 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Interesting bid Now it's my turn to ask a question .... I've been asked to bid on a 500 page reference book that will yield about 150+ entries per page (YES, you read right -- 1-5-0!). It is not at all conceptual. A lot of names that need to be entered -- many are mythological names from other cultures. I am about to take the sample pages that were faxed to me and do the data entry on them in order to get a sense of the time I'd need, and derive a rate. If any of you have bid on such a project, would you share your suggested rates with me (and the list)? This is different! You never know what's/who's going to be at the other end of a phone call! Thanks in advance, Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:18:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judith Metcalf Subject: Microsoft Access for indexing I'm brand new to INDEX-L, so apologize if this question has been discussed before. Have any of you had experience using Access for periodical indexing? I inherited an established Access periodical index which has the maximum sized key word field, which I've been filling with a mix of key words and phrases, along with some broader terms which might incidentally serve as subject headings, but obviously what it needs is a real subject authority list. Is there a way to create one with Access? If so, which version? I did take a one day class in Access, but the instructor was only concerned with the creation and manipulation of the tables. I've also scanned some books on Access, but had no luck. Thanks in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:20:50 -0400 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Organization: Focus Information Services Subject: Re: Interesting bid This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BE9193.14A796A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is interesting, especially if you've never done this before. It is for this type of project, I think that indexers can charge by the *entry*, and not by the hour or page. After indexing a few pages, figure out how many you index in an hour, and compare that with your hourly worth. (For example, if you can get $40/hour indexing, then use that number.) Thus if you can type 100 names accurately in one hour, each name is worth $.40 to you (because 100 per hour times $.40 per entry is $40 per hour). The key to making this work is (a) determining your typing speed -- including the time is takes to check spelling, etc.; and (b) determining your hourly value -- i.e., what you want to make for your time. Seth Maislin Focus Information Services smaislin@world.std.com ----- Original Message ----- From: JPerlman@AOL.COM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 4:04 PM Subject: Interesting bid Now it's my turn to ask a question .... I've been asked to bid on a 500 page reference book that will yield about 150+ entries per page (YES, you read right -- 1-5-0!). It is not at all conceptual. A lot of names that need to be entered -- many are mythological names from other cultures. I am about to take the sample pages that were faxed to me and do the data entry on them in order to get a sense of the time I'd need, and derive a rate. If any of you have bid on such a project, would you share your suggested rates with me (and the list)? This is different! You never know what's/who's going to be at the other end of a phone call! Thanks in advance, Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BE9193.14A796A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Seth Blue Small.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002901be91b4$9bb19580$LocalHost@focuscomputer> R0lGODlhRAAeAHcAACH5BAEAANcALAAAAABEAB4AhwAAAAAAMwAAZgAAmQAAzAAA/wAzAAAzMwAz ZgAzmQAzzAAz/wBmAABmMwBmZgBmmQBmzABm/wCZAACZMwCZZgCZmQCZzACZ/wDMAADMMwDMZgDM mQDMzADM/wD/AAD/MwD/ZgD/mQD/zAD//zMAADMAMzMAZjMAmTMAzDMA/zMzADMzMzMzZjMzmTMz zDMz/zNmADNmMzNmZjNmmTNmzDNm/zOZADOZMzOZZjOZmTOZzDOZ/zPMADPMMzPMZjPMmTPMzDPM /zP/ADP/MzP/ZjP/mTP/zDP//2YAAGYAM2YAZmYAmWYAzGYA/2YzAGYzM2YzZmYzmWYzzGYz/2Zm AGZmM2ZmZmZmmWZmzGZm/2aZAGaZM2aZZmaZmWaZzGaZ/2bMAGbMM2bMZmbMmWbMzGbM/2b/AGb/ M2b/Zmb/mWb/zGb//5kAAJkAM5kAZpkAmZkAzJkA/5kzAJkzM5kzZpkzmZkzzJkz/5lmAJlmM5lm ZplmmZlmzJlm/5mZAJmZM5mZZpmZmZmZzJmZ/5nMAJnMM5nMZpnMmZnMzJnM/5n/AJn/M5n/Zpn/ mZn/zJn//8wAAMwAM8wAZswAmcwAzMwA/8wzAMwzM8wzZswzmcwzzMwz/8xmAMxmM8xmZsxmmcxm zMxm/8yZAMyZM8yZZsyZmcyZzMyZ/8zMAMzMM8zMZszMmczMzMzM/8z/AMz/M8z/Zsz/mcz/zMz/ //8AAP8AM/8AZv8Amf8AzP8A//8zAP8zM/8zZv8zmf8zzP8z//9mAP9mM/9mZv9mmf9mzP9m//+Z AP+ZM/+ZZv+Zmf+ZzP+Z///MAP/MM//MZv/Mmf/MzP/M////AP//M///Zv//mf//zP///wAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAj/AK8JHEiwIMFWrVoZNGjQoEGDBg0aNEhw0IssWV4MMmjQoEGDBg0aNGjw2qAXBAe1MmjQoEGD Bg0aNGjwRauCgwwaNGjQoEGDBg0WzDLI4CCDBVtlMWjQoEGDBg0SfNGqYKtWBgm2KpDFoEGDBg0a NDiw1QuDBg1myTLIoEGDBg0aNDhwUBaDBgu2epGllUGDBg0aNGhwYJZBBg0WHJQli8GBrQYZNGjQ oMGCL1oZNFjwxaBBBgUOKpDFoEGDBg0WfGHQYMFWL7K0MnitVYEsBg0aNGjQ4AuDBgsOypLF4LVW LwYZNGjQoEGDrbIYNFgwy4tWBVtleZHFoEGDBg0a/7w2KIvBgq1aEXyRheCgF1lavWhl0KBBgwYN Xhs0yGBBgINetLp2rVWBVq0GZXmRpdW1QVkAXhM4kGBBgwcRCszSKuHAQS+yZMlS4MWLLIMIvmiV MGHChAKztEpYsNWgAoMODnqRMGHChANfEGz14kUrhFkKIHzRKmHChAkHFhjYqsCgQYMODnqR5WCr FwkTJkxI8MXAQVmutRpksFWWLK0OvmiVMGHChANbZRk4aNC1QYMMZmn14mCrFwkTJmz1olXCa4Oy DBw0qNULg1latXpx8MWghAkTXnvxIksrhIMGDWyVJUurgoMGXRs0yGCrF61evHiRpVXChAVbZRn0 ov/VwSytBrYqMKjgoEECs7QymGXQi0ECB71olTBhwVZZWr140argi4GtXhQo2CrLwBcGW714MYhg qxeDEia81mpgqyzXWr3I0kpgqxcCsxQYlGXQwEEAs1y7du3aC4DXBA7MUqDVwIGtXrxoNXDgwIED r7XKMvBaqyytrg168SLLiwIvXmRpda3Vi0GDXmRpNfBaloEDCwwaOHBgqxdZWg0cOHDgtVYvWg0U 2CpLK4GtWr0Y1GqgwFZZsrQaOLDVwIFZBg4cOHDQixdZWg0ceK3VoBcvBg0cKDDLIIGtXgC8JnAg wYIGDyIc2GpQlgIAXwgc+CLLIIDXBA4keK1VliwVLwYVLFiwYMGCBQsWvNaqVauC1wICADs= ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BE9193.14A796A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:39:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts I just had to respond because it was, finally, something I knew about :-) Happy days. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Sylvia Coates [SMTP:scoates@SLIP.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 9:15 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts > > Yes, you are correct. Too much indexing, reading, etc. lately :-). > > Sylvia Coates > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:41:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts Sorry, that was meant for Sylvia only. Now y'all know my weakness. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Toni Williams TPG/SG [SMTP:towilliams@PROCYONGROUP.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 1:39 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts > > I just had to respond because it was, finally, something I knew about :-) > Happy days. > > Toni > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sylvia Coates [SMTP:scoates@SLIP.NET] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 9:15 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts > > > > Yes, you are correct. Too much indexing, reading, etc. lately :-). > > > > Sylvia Coates > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:46:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: sample indexes and copyright At 01:32 PM 4/28/1999 -0400, Kate Binder wrote: >I'm not taking sides on this one, but I'd be willing to bet money >that--regardless of the legal precedents--the editors and publishers in >question _believe_ that their companies own the indexes they pay you to >create and that those indexes are part of the books. I'd discuss this >question with the appropriate editor to make sure you're both "on the >same page," so to speak. Well, I agree that this is how editors and publishers probably view the situation. And normally, IMO, none of this really matters. In hardly any situation I can think of does an indexer have any use for an index other than as part of the book it was written for or as a sample of his or her work. And I can't imagine an editor forbidding permission to show an index as a sample. If this were to happen, I would certainly not want to work for that person. >Sample indexes, of course, are a completely different matter; however, I >suspect that, if asked, most publishers would not grant permission for >such a marketing procedure, because they tend to be (pardon my technical >jargon here) paranoid freaks when it comes to their legal rights. >However, you could always just not ask for permission and hope your >sample index doesn't end up on the desk of someone at the book's >publisher. *IF* you were planning on selling the resulting index, either as a concordance to a favorite novel or series, or in some other way to make money from it, I think you DO have to ask permission before going ahead...even if, legally, you may own the rights to your own work. That's why I suggested that samples not make use of popular, well-known fictional works where you can be fairly certain the originators have already secured their rights to every possible spinoff production...including an index. However, if you are only creating an index as a sample and have no intention of selling it or otherwise profiting from its creation, I can't see that you have anything to fear. Even if the index does hit the desk of the editor who was in charge of the original book, why would that person be terribly upset? If the book had no index to begin with, it could in fact be a good marketing tool to suggest one for a later edition (and, with your sample in hand, you'd probably get hired to do it). If the book already had an index, I would hope that you have improved upon it sufficiently to impress the editor with your skills. In any event, you're certainly not stealing anything from the publisher by doing this. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:51:09 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Interesting bid Seth, Your per-entry rate would have to be incredibly low in order for the publisher to afford you, or any indexer! Unless I did my math wrong, at 150 entries per page for 500 pages, the index would end up being 75,000 entries long. Even at 30 cents per entry, which is way lower than anybody charges, almost half the usual, the indexing cost would be a whopping $22,500! I doubt you'd find a publisher willing to buy into that! On a per-page or per-hour basis you could get it down to manageable. The only way is to bid high enough. Which would be Very High. I'm still figuring. It would still be a bundle, although not as high as the above figure. What I wonder about this project is .... aside from the astronomically high indexing cost, does the publisher realize how big the index will be? To my way of figuring, the index will require about 500 pages also! Are they prepared for this? And .... then the question comes up .... do I really want to bid on this at all? And how long would it take me? Yes ..... interesting! Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:56:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts I for one would like to see what reference source it is that calls James I "St. James" and a saint in the same sense as Roman Catholic saints. James' mother was Mary, Queen of Scots, a staunch Roman Catholic, but he himself was not particularly partial to the Church. The bible in question IS generally known as the King James version. None of the five reference sources I have consulted say a thing about it being called the St. James Bible. If indeed the King James version of the Bible is also known as the St. James Bible, shouldn't there be appropriate cross-referencing involved? So, if there really is a reputable reference source that calls this bible the St. James Bible, I would really like to know that, because of the implications for cross-referencing, etc. Anybody? Cynthia At 08:53 PM 4/28/99 +0100, J.R. Sampson wrote: >> The most commonly used Protestant version of the Bible is >> generally called the King James version, after the English monarch at the >> time the project was completed. However, he was formally declared a Saint >> of the religion of which he was the head, as had been his predecessors >> like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. >> Marvant Duhon >> > >Henry VIII styled himself 'Defender of the Faith' but I have not heard >of him, James I or Elizabeth I being canonised. They were heads of >the Church of England, which does not have formal 'saints'. I think >for a saintly king one would have to go back to Edward the >Confessor, but I am no historian. > >Regards > >_John Sampson_ > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:19:22 -0600 Reply-To: mmorrison@qmsoft.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mmorrison Subject: Re: "Newby" question I'm unlurking briefly because (and this is a rarity) I've got a question that the postings have not so far answered. I am not a full-time indexer, I am a tech writer, but I care deeply about the quality of indexes that go in the back of my manuals. I've been doing indexes through the tools built into Word and Frame. All the replies to the recent "Newby" post seem to indicate the publisher usually sends hard copy pages. I understand the basic concept and probably could manage to construct an index with 3x5 cards and a shoebox, but somehow I don't think that's what most of you do these days. So my question is, How often do you put markers in a text file of some sort and then automatically generate the index listing, and how often is your index completely free-standing, i.e., not connected to the text files? Maybe it's not such an issue with academic books that are published in final form and then rarely or only slightly revised thereafter. However, I find the prospect of doing an index that does not consist of markers embedded in the text rather alarming, because the material I work on changes so rapidly. Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom. ;-) Marcia Morrison Qualitative Marketing Software Boulder, Colorado mmorrison@qmsoft.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:23:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re[2]: "Newby" question Marcia, I work in-house for a computer book publisher, so all of my indexes consist of embedding codes into the text files, then compiling the final index after the book has been folioed. That's the way I learned to index, so it's not that difficult for me to keep my index consistent as I'm coding it. And any inconsistencies can be cleaned up relatively easily when I edit the final index (immediately after it has been compiled). For what it's worth, I do embedded indexing in Word, PageMaker, QuarkXPress, and FrameMaker. For the few freelance projects I have done, I worked with hard copy pages. The clients sent me hard copy of the entire book, then expected a hard copy of the index plus an MS Word file on disk in return. I don't have a dedicated indexing program (yet!), so typing up the index in Excel and exporting it to Word for the final edit was tedious to say the least, but it did get the job done. Once I decide to freelance a little more regularly, I will have to invest in a dedicated indexing program. I would not recommend doing a stand-alone index in Excel more than once or twice. Hope this helps answer your questions! Cheryl Jackson Macmillan Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: "Newby" question Author: mmorrison at internet Date: 4/28/99 12:19 PM I'm unlurking briefly because (and this is a rarity) I've got a question that the postings have not so far answered. I am not a full-time indexer, I am a tech writer, but I care deeply about the quality of indexes that go in the back of my manuals. I've been doing indexes through the tools built into Word and Frame. All the replies to the recent "Newby" post seem to indicate the publisher usually sends hard copy pages. I understand the basic concept and probably could manage to construct an index with 3x5 cards and a shoebox, but somehow I don't think that's what most of you do these days. So my question is, How often do you put markers in a text file of some sort and then automatically generate the index listing, and how often is your index completely free-standing, i.e., not connected to the text files? Maybe it's not such an issue with academic books that are published in final form and then rarely or only slightly revised thereafter. However, I find the prospect of doing an index that does not consist of markers embedded in the text rather alarming, because the material I work on changes so rapidly. Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom. ;-) Marcia Morrison Qualitative Marketing Software Boulder, Colorado mmorrison@qmsoft.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:50:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Organization: Focus Information Services Subject: Re: Interesting bid Sorry, I think it was my numbers. :-) Yes, per-entry rates are usually astoundingly low. Imagine that your job were simply to fill in a database by typing in names. If a typist can make $16 per hour typing 100 names an hour, each name is worth only $.16. As an indexer, you should make more than $16. - Seth ----- Original Message ----- From: JPerlman@AOL.COM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 4:51 PM Subject: Interesting bid Seth, Your per-entry rate would have to be incredibly low in order for the publisher to afford you, or any indexer! Unless I did my math wrong, at 150 entries per page for 500 pages, the index would end up being 75,000 entries long. Even at 30 cents per entry, which is way lower than anybody charges, almost half the usual, the indexing cost would be a whopping $22,500! I doubt you'd find a publisher willing to buy into that! On a per-page or per-hour basis you could get it down to manageable. The only way is to bid high enough. Which would be Very High. I'm still figuring. It would still be a bundle, although not as high as the above figure. What I wonder about this project is .... aside from the astronomically high indexing cost, does the publisher realize how big the index will be? To my way of figuring, the index will require about 500 pages also! Are they prepared for this? And .... then the question comes up .... do I really want to bid on this at all? And how long would it take me? Yes ..... interesting! Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:47:49 EDT Reply-To: MHam62@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Hammitt Subject: Re: USDA class question Stephanie, I realize that your letter is directed to Laura, but I am now thoroughly bummed to find that it may take 10 months to complete 3 semester hours for the basic indexing class. The USDA site makes it sound like self study. It seems as though 3 hours could easily be completed in a month or two. << sigh>> Thanks to all who have responded to my question. Warmly, Mary In a message dated 4/28/99 5:47:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lwelcome@TOGETHER.NET writes: << > Laura, > Hi! > I also just started to take the USDA Basic Indexing course as well. I > turned in my first lesson 3 weeks ago. For some reason USDA sat on it for > 2 weeks before turning it over to the instructor. They also charged my VISA > twice. Administration must be a "challenge" for them. I think it is going > to be a long process! At this rate it will take 10 months but hopefully it > will go faster once I am communicating directly with the instructor. I am > enjoying the class so far. I have already finished lesson 2. It's hard to > refrain from working ahead! > > Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:03:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Interesting bid In-Reply-To: <199904281653.rietb0.rcn.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 04:51 PM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >Your per-entry rate would have to be incredibly low in order for the >publisher to afford you, or any indexer! Unless I did my math wrong, at 150 >entries per page for 500 pages, the index would end up being 75,000 entries >long. Even at 30 cents per entry, which is way lower than anybody charges, >almost half the usual, the indexing cost would be a whopping $22,500! I >doubt you'd find a publisher willing to buy into that! Janet: Before you spend a lot of time doing a test run, establish that the publisher is serious about this, that they understand that the cost is potentially very high and that the person you are dealing with is authorized to make the decision on spending the money. I've been burned way too many times putting 10-20 hours into estimating a job like this only to find the client had no realistic expectation of the cost or the person I was dealing with did not have authority to accept the bid and couldn't sell it to their boss. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:09:09 EDT Reply-To: MAMalnor@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Malnor Subject: ASI SHIRT ORDER FORM Indexers - here's another chance to order ASI shirts...order before May 7 to have the shirts shipped to you before the Indianapolis conference. THANKS! The Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter of ASI is selling ASI polo shirts, T-shirts, and sweatshirts for the whole family. Each item is embroidered with the ASI logo and the phrase "THE INDEX IS THE KEY." The shirts come in either forest green with a cream logo or wheat with a plum logo. We will be taking orders for the shirts at the annual conference, but this is your chance to order ahead - shirts can be mailed in advance (see shipping charges on order form), or picked up in Indianapolis (no shipping charges.). Important "order by" dates: May 7, 1999 - to have shirts shipped to you in time for conference. May 21, 1999 - to pick up order at Indianapolis Please send order forms and checks (made out to Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter) to Caryl Wenzel (address below). Thanks! Following are product descriptions and the order form: ************************************************************ Polo Shirts (Adult only): Jerzees brand, 100% combed cotton pique with quarter-length sleeves, two wood-tone button placket, welt collar and cuffs, side vents with 2" dropped tail. T-Shirts (Adult and Youth): Hanes Beefy-T, heavyweight 100% preshrunk ring spun cotton, double needle hem and sleeve. Sweatshirts (Adult only): Jerzees brand, 80/20 heavyweight with set-in sleeve, fully overseamed, ribbed spandex collar, cuffs, and waistband Sweatshirts (Youth only): Jerzees brand, 50/50 set-in sleeve heavyweight crew sweatshirt, full athletic cut, fully coverseamed, ribbed spandex collar, cuffs, and waistband ********************************************************* Order Form (please print) Name____________________________________________________ Address___________________________________________________ City/State/Zip______________________________________________ Day Phone (____) ______________E-mail______________________ CODES STYLES: (Unisex) T T-shirt P Polo shirt S Sweatshirt COLORS: W (Plum logo on WHEAT) FG (Cream logo on FOREST GREEN) ADULT SIZES: M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL YOUTH SIZES: YS (size 6-8), YM (size 10-12), YL (size 14-16) UNIT PRICES: (INCLUDES SALES TAXES) ADULT: $20 per T-shirt M-L-XL $23 per T-shirt XXL-XXXL $30 per polo shirt M-L-XL $33 per polo shirt XXL-XXXL $30 per sweatshirt M-L-XL $33 per sweatshirt XXL-XXXL YOUTH: $16 per youth T-shirt $30 per youth sweatshirt Polo shirts not available in youth sizes CHECK ONE: [ ] Order will be PICKED UP at Indianapolis Conference. [ ] SHIP order to above address: see Delivery* Charges below. Order Total Delivery* $20-100 $5.00 $101-150 $7.00 $151-200 $9.00 Over $201 $11.00 NO EXCHANGES NO REFUNDS STYLE CODE COLOR CODE SIZE CODE UNIT PRICE QTY TOTAL Subtotal Delivery* TOTAL Make check payable to: Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Mail to: Caryl Wenzel 8315 Route 53, #B-14 Woodridge, IL 60517 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:13:06 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts Cynthia, I'll answer this one since I'm the one accidentally started this by referring to the "King James Version" as the "St. James Version." I believe that the others jumping in here about James being "St. James" etc. were not implying that the Bible is ever referred to as the "St. James Version," as indeed it never is except by very tired indexers like me -:). Therefore there would not be any reference in your sources regarding the nonexistent "St. James Bible" and therefore no cross references required :-). As to James being known as "St. James" I'll have to bow out of that discussion as I have no information or knowledge regarding this particular piece of trivia! Not to mention that my brain is feeling fried from too much work, so I will now be logging off and indulging myself in the luxury of a nap! Good night all! Sylvia Coates Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > I for one would like to see what reference source it is that calls James I > "St. James" and a saint in the same sense as Roman Catholic saints. James' > mother was Mary, Queen of Scots, a staunch Roman Catholic, but he himself > was not particularly partial to the Church. The bible in question IS > generally known as the King James version. None of the five reference > sources I have consulted say a thing about it being called the St. James Bible. > > If indeed the King James version of the Bible is also known as the St. James > Bible, shouldn't there be appropriate cross-referencing involved? > > So, if there really is a reputable reference source that calls this bible > the St. James Bible, I would really like to know that, because of the > implications for cross-referencing, etc. > > Anybody? > > Cynthia > > At 08:53 PM 4/28/99 +0100, J.R. Sampson wrote: > >> The most commonly used Protestant version of the Bible is > >> generally called the King James version, after the English monarch at the > >> time the project was completed. However, he was formally declared a Saint > >> of the religion of which he was the head, as had been his predecessors > >> like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. > >> Marvant Duhon > >> > > > >Henry VIII styled himself 'Defender of the Faith' but I have not heard > >of him, James I or Elizabeth I being canonised. They were heads of > >the Church of England, which does not have formal 'saints'. I think > >for a saintly king one would have to go back to Edward the > >Confessor, but I am no historian. > > > >Regards > > > >_John Sampson_ > > > > > > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen > Bertelsen Indexing Services > cbertel@usit.net > Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ > > "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no > literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no > social harmony." --Careme > ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:26:24 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: c.anderson.seattle@ATT.NET Subject: Re: Interesting bid I indexed a two-volume history of mythology once with many names from other cultures and the one thing that I found took longer than I expected was the tremendous variety of unusual diacritics used in names from cultures such as Indian, African, Japanese, Chinese, etc. As I remember it, the publisher also needed special coding for these diacritics. This was back in the old CINDEX for DOS days, though, and if you're using CINDEX for Windows, I expect it might be easier. I don't think I had more than 30-35 names per page though (and not on every page) - it still was a huge index. Just something to consider in bidding. Charles Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:46:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts I just did a quick search on the net and found no evidence (and I realize the limitations here) that Kings James IV & I of Scotland and England was elevated to saint hood. Since that is an activity of the Catholic search and since King James was a very devout Protestant, I think it unlikely. My guess is that St. James was one of Jesus' disciples, but in this, as in many other things, I could be wrong. TW > -----Original Message----- > From: Sylvia Coates [SMTP:scoates@SLIP.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 8:13 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts > > Cynthia, > > I'll answer this one since I'm the one accidentally started this by > referring to > the "King James Version" as the "St. James Version." > > I believe that the others jumping in here about James being "St. James" > etc. > were > not implying that the Bible is ever referred to as the "St. James > Version," as > indeed it never is except by very tired indexers like me -:). Therefore > there > would > not be any reference in your sources regarding the nonexistent "St. James > Bible" > and therefore no cross references required :-). > > As to James being known as "St. James" I'll have to bow out of that > discussion > as I > have no information or knowledge regarding this particular piece of > trivia! Not > to > mention that my brain is feeling fried from too much work, so I will now > be > logging > off and indulging myself in the luxury of a nap! > > Good night all! > Sylvia Coates > > Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > > > I for one would like to see what reference source it is that calls James > I > > "St. James" and a saint in the same sense as Roman Catholic saints. > James' > > mother was Mary, Queen of Scots, a staunch Roman Catholic, but he > himself > > was not particularly partial to the Church. The bible in question IS > > generally known as the King James version. None of the five reference > > sources I have consulted say a thing about it being called the St. James > Bible. > > > > If indeed the King James version of the Bible is also known as the St. > James > > Bible, shouldn't there be appropriate cross-referencing involved? > > > > So, if there really is a reputable reference source that calls this > bible > > the St. James Bible, I would really like to know that, because of the > > implications for cross-referencing, etc. > > > > Anybody? > > > > Cynthia > > > > At 08:53 PM 4/28/99 +0100, J.R. Sampson wrote: > > >> The most commonly used Protestant version of the Bible is > > >> generally called the King James version, after the English monarch at > the > > >> time the project was completed. However, he was formally declared a > Saint > > >> of the religion of which he was the head, as had been his > predecessors > > >> like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. > > >> Marvant Duhon > > >> > > > > > >Henry VIII styled himself 'Defender of the Faith' but I have not heard > > >of him, James I or Elizabeth I being canonised. They were heads of > > >the Church of England, which does not have formal 'saints'. I think > > >for a saintly king one would have to go back to Edward the > > >Confessor, but I am no historian. > > > > > >Regards > > > > > >_John Sampson_ > > > > > > > > > > ***************************************** > > > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen > > Bertelsen Indexing Services > > cbertel@usit.net > > Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ > > > > "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no > > literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no > > social harmony." --Careme > > ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:52:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Hernandez Subject: Time needed for USDA course This is offered as a "FYI" to people taking or thinking about taking the USDA Basic Indexing course: I did it, from start to certificate in hand, in 5 months. It does not have to take 10 months to a year to complete. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:10:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marj Mitchell Subject: Subject area Inquiry I just HAVE to say I am so jazzed to discover indexing! I am wondering if anyone has any information as to the viability of indexing for the specialties of theatre and music. I've studied all areas of theatre - from acting through technical areas to management. I've studied music - from composition to lit and history. Would these areas be large enough markets to specialize in? (Assuming I prove good enough.) Would these areas have more or less indexers already working them than other subject areas? Thanks for any info. Marj Technical Writer, MSJ Communications Corp. RoboHelp, Framemaker, (and soon) Cindex skilled MMitchell@msjcorp.com "Project an objective, calm frame of mind..." begin 600 winmail.dat M>)\^(B(7`0:0"``$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y`0```````#H``$(@`<` M&````$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`06``P`.````SP<$`!P` M$``*`!X``P`Q`0$@@`,`#@```,\'!``<`!``"@`@``,`,P$!"8`!`"$```!& M0S,Q13A&,T$U1D1$,C$Q.3A%.#`P-C`P.#E$,C$Q,@`:!P$$@`$`%0```%-U M8FIE8W0@87)E82!);G%U:7)Y`)H'`0V`!``"`````@`"``$#D`8`)`D``"X` M```#``6`""`&``````#`````````1@````!2A0``MPT``!X`(H`((`8````` M`,````````!&`````%2%```!````!````#@N,``#`".`""`&``````#````` M````1@`````!A0````````L``(`((`8``````,````````!&``````.%```` M````"P`L@`@@!@``````P````````$8`````#H4````````#``*`""`&```` M``#`````````1@`````0A0````````,`+8`((`8``````,````````!&```` M`!&%`````````P`O@`@@!@``````P````````$8`````&(4````````>`#Z` M""`&``````#`````````1@`````VA0```0````$`````````'@`_@`@@!@`` M````P````````$8`````-X4```$````!`````````!X`0(`((`8``````,`` M``````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````````"`0D0`0```/L"``#W`@``4P0` M`$Q:1G7:I6-$`P`*`')C<&`N`9R'O"J(*A`J`'?-W`B`$@1_QI1^09AX`;GD<`2`2 M@"\$("(1'Y$"$'(`P'1I3P(@'@`$(!V!=&@B8':E!S!B`Q!I=!W0;R'PS1^F M(",A)!-S<`60!S'_(W`'D24!)"$C8`EP(@$>P-9M'/`-X"X@E2L0=``R`*P"=0W2;K+26P`V$>`&,C<"&Q8R0@`V!U9V@=<`60:#T#`&,5 M`2G$'8$#@6%G_F4'@`(P*$\>L2?S*L8%H/AM<&\`D"-S'8$DL2>CIF@$`!V` M!!;%L M7P>0!"`?HP20(J%L*=%D?QW0(4`TH"MT+;`D$0.1;^ M(`-01?$D\C9Q-&0N3T`B`S$5X7,QOC=`+`+1"\4@0Q=Q`%(@``,`)@`````` M`P`V```````+``(``0````(!,0`!````%@$``%!#1$9%0C`Y``$``@!P```` M`````#BANQ`%Y1`:H;L(`"LJ5L(``$5-4TU$0BY$3$P``````````!M5^B"J M9A'-F\@`J@`OQ%H,````3U-#05(`+V\]04]$($YE='=O0`````"`7$``0```!8````!OI'+ MFBVG;P&U_7`1THJP`!!+(OV)``!``#D`0/^.3\R1O@$#`/$_"00``!X`,4`! M````!P```$U!4DH@30```P`:0``````>`#!``0````<```!-05)*($T```,` M&4```````P#]/^0$```#`(`0_____P(!1P`!````,@```&,]55,[83T@.W`] M04]$($YE='=O`#E``0````<```!-05)*($T``$`` M!S#.(#2)RI&^`4``"#`B,`!T.`0`` M`!4```!3=6)J96-T(&%R96$@26YQ=6ER>0`````>`#40`0```"\````\0D8S M,#4P,S$X.4)&1#$Q,3DX-T,P,#8P,#@Y1#(Q,3(R,D8S,T-`3U-#05(^```+ M`"D``0````L`(P```````P`&$!9L>CH#``<0-0(```,`$!```````P`1$``` M```>``@0`0```&4```!)2E535$A!5D543U-!64E!35-/2D%:6D5$5$]$25-# M3U9%4DE.1$5824Y'24%-5T].1$5224Y'249!3EE/3D5(05-!3EE)3D9/4DU! M5$E/3D%35$]42$5624%"24Q)5%E/1DE.``````(!?P`!````+P```#Q"1C,P M-3`S,3@Y0D9$,3$Q.3@W0S`P-C`P.#E$,C$Q,C(R1C,S0T!/4T-!4CX``#47 ` end ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Read: Subject area Inquiry eJ8+Ig0AAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB NUZERDIxMTk4RTgwMDYwMDg5RDIxMTIAGgcBA5AGAKwEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAWAQAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAHAAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA RU1TTURCLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAAG1X6IKpmEc2byACqAC/EWgwAAABPU0NBUgAvbz1BT0QgTmV0d29y ay9vdT1NU0ovY249UmVjaXBpZW50cy9jbj1NYXJqIE0ALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSES AQC/MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLaAAAAAAAALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSESAQC/ MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLbAAAQAAAA/DHo86X90hGY6ABgCJ0hEhUAAABTdWJqZWN0IGFy ZWEgSW5xdWlyeQAAAEAAMgBAhXtx05G+AQMANgAAAAAAAgFDAAEAAABBAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZ nW4A3QEPVAIAAAEATWFyaiBNaXRjaGVsbABTTVRQAG1taXRjaGVsbEBNU0pDT1JQLkNPTQAAAAAe AEQAAQAAAA4AAABNYXJqIE1pdGNoZWxsAAAAHgBJAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVp cnkAAAAAAgFMAAEAAABaAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAEASW5kZXhlcidzIERpc2N1 c3Npb24gR3JvdXAAU01UUABJTkRFWC1MQEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAAeAE0A AQAAABsAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cAAAQABOAED/jk/Mkb4BQABVAICMCYvL kb4BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVpcnkAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAb6Ry5ot p28Btf1wEdKKsAAQSyL9iQAB9dM6AB4AcgABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHMAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgB0 AAEAAAAkAAAATXVsdGlwbGUgcmVjaXBpZW50cyBvZiBsaXN0IElOREVYLUwACwAIDAAAAAACAR0M AQAAABcAAABTTVRQOlNLWVNPRlRARVJPTFMuQ09NAAALAAEOAQAAAAsAHw4BAAAAHgABEAEAAAAV AAAATWVzc2FnZSB3YXMgcmVhZCBvbjoAAAAAAwAGEAAAAAADAAcQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAABAAAAHQs 3gADABAQmPsEAwMAERDkBAAAAgH4DwEAAAAQAAAAi6t94TNpvRGmvfb3cT3jDwIB+g8BAAAAEAAA AIurfeEzab0Rpr3293E94w8CAfsPAQAAAF0AAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJY LkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAABDOlxNeSBEb2N1bWVudHNcT3V0bG9va1xvdXRs b29rLnBzdAAAAAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAAAgF/AAEAAAAxAAAAMDAwMDAwMDA4QkFCN0RFMTMz NjlCRDExQTZCREY2Rjc3MTNERTMwRjY0OUIyODAwAAAAAIcZ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:07:56 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Mystery Message Hi, There was a message that recently appeared on INDEX-L that appeared to come from me. It did not. I didn't recognize the subject and I looked through my sent mail. There was absolutely no mail sent to INDEX-L. If anyone has some idea of how that message got there, I'd be very happy to know. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com, Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472, Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:38:46 -0400 Reply-To: lfs7@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Loraine Schacher Organization: self-employed Subject: proofreading Hi, Rick, Maybe others will like to have this information, too. The company named "EEI Communications" conducts courses in proofreading, editing, indexing, and other subjects at their site in Alexandria, VA. They publish "The Editorial Eye," a useful newletter for editors. I do not know if they also conduct courses by mail, but they may. They publish two excellent books on proofreading by Peggy Smith. The first is entitled _Letter Perfect_, available for $24.95. Peggy Smith also wrote another book on proofreading entitled _Mark My Words_, (a more simplified version of the same book) and it costs $35.00. I own and use _Mark My Words_ and I highly recommend it to you. For information on these and other books, courses, etc. contact: EEI Communications 66 Canal Center Plaza, Suite 200 Alexandria, VA 22314-5507 e-mail: press@eeicom.com website: www.eeicom.com telephone: 703 / 683-0683 fax: 703 / 683-4915 --------------- > Subj: Proofreading > > I have been contemplating the idea of learning how to proofread and doing > that to compliment freelance indexing. Does anyone have any experience in > this? Or, as to where one could learn this? I know that the Graduate School > of the USDA offers a course on proofreading. Anyone have a take on any of > this? > > I would gladly accept any advice on this subject off list. Thank you. > > Sincerely, > Rick Hurd. Rick's Indexing > 2125 Birmingham Rd. > Liberty Mo. 64068 > Phone/Fax: 816-781-9042 > Email: ricksindexing@hotmail.com ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:35:53 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: klrsak Subject: Re: Read: Subject area Inquiry Just in case my humor in response to what appeared to be a message from Kamm Schreiner (but apparently wasn't) appeared on index-L, the one about the waterfall is mine - I had nothing to do with whatever the language. Larry lacoG indexing klrsak@oneimage.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:29:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ":) christy" Subject: Re: Time needed for USDA course I think a lot of it depends on your instructor--it took mine over 3 months to get a single assignment back. At that rate, it is hard to finish in a short amount of time... :) christy Susan Hernandez wrote: > > This is offered as a "FYI" to people taking or thinking about taking > the USDA Basic Indexing course: I did it, from start to certificate in > hand, in 5 months. It does not have to take 10 months to a year to > complete. > > - Susan > > *************************************** > Susan Danzi Hernandez > BookEnd Indexing > susanhernandez@juno.com > (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:54:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Anglican saints John Sampson wrote: > Henry VIII styled himself 'Defender of the Faith' but I have not heard > of him, James I or Elizabeth I being canonised. They were heads of > the Church of England, which does not have formal 'saints'. I think > for a saintly king one would have to go back to Edward the > Confessor, but I am no historian. The Anglican Church (known in this country as the Episcopal Church) may or may not have a formal process for canonization, but it certainly has officially recognized saints. Besides the really obvious saints from the church's first few centuries (St. John the Baptist; Sts. Peter and Paul, St. Augustine, etc.) there are a number of figures from the early church in Britain: St. Bede, St. Alban, and so on. Then there are some from the days of the Tudors -- mostly Church-of-England supporters who were martyred under Bloody Mary. Ironically, the Catholic Church has saints from almost the same time period -- Catholic believers and priests who were martyred under Henry VIII, Elizabeth, and a few subsequent monarchs. However, I don't recall Henry VIII, Elizabeth, or James I being among the C of E's official saints. (Seems to me labeling Henry VIII a saint would be a tough sell, anyway!) Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:07:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Subject area Inquiry > I am wondering if anyone has any information as to the viability of indexing > for the specialties of theatre and music. > I've studied all areas of theatre - from acting through technical areas to > management. > I've studied music - from composition to lit and history. > Would these areas be large enough markets to specialize in? (Assuming I > prove good enough.) > Would these areas have more or less indexers already working them than other > subject areas? Welcome, Marj! I tried to break in to indexing using my own theater credentials. What I discovered is that all the theater-book publishers I contacted used in-house indexers. There are certainly publishers who do an occasional book on the theater, but not enough to specialize in as far as I can tell. I found a similar situation in the music field, though my marketing search was not as extensive in that field. My advice is to start as a generalist. I actually did get a job from a publisher I contacted because they did some theater books; the job I got was on postmodern pedagogy, and had nothing to do with theater. Pull out all your interests, not just areas you've studied formally. Are you a cook? An avid gardener? Well-read in history or anthropology? Think about what you do and what you enjoy reading about, and start making a list. That gives you a broader base of publishers to target, and increases your chances of getting work. That's not to say you'll never get a chance to do theater or music books. Keep looking for them. Just don't count on making a living in that specialty alone. Good luck! Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:16:18 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Read: Subject area Inquiry eJ8+IhIDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB NUZERDIxMTk4RTgwMDYwMDg5RDIxMTIAGgcBA5AGAKgEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAWAQAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAHAAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA RU1TTURCLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAAG1X6IKpmEc2byACqAC/EWgwAAABPU0NBUgAvbz1BT0QgTmV0d29y ay9vdT1NU0ovY249UmVjaXBpZW50cy9jbj1NYXJqIE0ALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSES AQC/MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLaAAAAAAAALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSESAQC/ MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLbAAAQAAAA/DHo86X90hGY6ABgCJ0hEhUAAABTdWJqZWN0IGFy ZWEgSW5xdWlyeQAAAEAAMgAAs2IO2pG+AQMANgAAAAAAAgFDAAEAAABBAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZ nW4A3QEPVAIAAAEATWFyaiBNaXRjaGVsbABTTVRQAG1taXRjaGVsbEBNU0pDT1JQLkNPTQAAAAAe AEQAAQAAAA4AAABNYXJqIE1pdGNoZWxsAAAAHgBJAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVp cnkAAAAAAgFMAAEAAABaAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAEASW5kZXhlcidzIERpc2N1 c3Npb24gR3JvdXAAU01UUABJTkRFWC1MQEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAAeAE0A AQAAABsAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cAAAQABOAED/jk/Mkb4BQABVAIDma43L kb4BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVpcnkAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAb6Ry5ot p28Btf1wEdKKsAAQSyL9iQADnQ+fAB4AcgABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHMAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgB0 AAEAAAAkAAAATXVsdGlwbGUgcmVjaXBpZW50cyBvZiBsaXN0IElOREVYLUwACwAIDAAAAAACAR0M AQAAABwAAABTTVRQOkRJQUdPTkFMQEhFUk1FUy5ORVQuQVUACwABDgEAAAALAB8OAQAAAB4AARAB AAAAFQAAAE1lc3NhZ2Ugd2FzIHJlYWQgb246AAAAAAMABhAAAAAAAwAHEAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAAQA AAA0Ft4AAwAQEJj7mAEDABEQ5AQAAAIB+A8BAAAAEAAAADp7L997db0Rhz62l8njsA4CAfoPAQAA ABAAAAA6ey/fe3W9EYc+tpfJ47AOAgH7DwEAAABVAAAAAAAAADihuxAF5RAaobsIACsqVsIAAFBT VFBSWC5ETEwAAAAAAAAAAE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAAQzpcREFUQVxPdXRsb29rXG1haWxib3gu cHN0AAAAAAMA/g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAADEAAAAwMDAwMDAwMDNBN0IyRkRGN0I3NUJE MTE4NzNFQjY5N0M5RTNCMDBFMjQxMzI4MDAAAAAAtRQ= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 06:22:30 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: archives; biblical texts In-Reply-To: <199904282214.BAA25664@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> Sylvia Coates wrote: >As to James being known as "St. James" I'll have to bow out of that discussion > as I >have no information or knowledge regarding this particular piece of trivia! Not > to >mention that my brain is feeling fried from too much work, so I will now be > logging >off and indulging myself in the luxury of a nap! According to the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, James I is not a saint. The most important saints by that name are James the Greater, James the Less and James the brother of Jesus. My earlier message with a reference seems to have been swallowed by the ether, so here it is: At 11:33 AM 4/28/99 EDT, Barbara Cohen wrote: >I work for several Jewish publishing firms, and they are most particular >about using Jewish preferences for the sort order for Bible citations. I >don't work for as many different Protestant publishers, but I assume there >are also clear preferences depending on the theological bent of the >publisher. I'm delurking here. I'm not a professional indexer but I have a fair amount of experience compiling indexes and editing academic texts in the field of religion. Generally one follows the preference of the author. For example, most of my books have been published by Brill Academic Publishers (and in case you're wondering, I was able to help Lillian on her query about indexing style), which is non-sectarian. They don't care what order the biblical books are listed, as long as it follows an *accepted* order, either Christian or Jewish. When Fortress Press (originally Lutheran) published a Jewish scholar's commentary, they did not object to our following the order of the Jewish canon in the index. For those who are new to this area, the sources can be quite tricky to order (especially apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, Dead Sea Scrolls and rabbinic literature). I recommend D.J.A. Clines, _The Sheffield Manual for Authors and Editors in Biblical Studies_. Sheffield (Sheffield Academic Press) 1997. Avital Dr. Avital Pinnick tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:17:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Subject area Inquiry I have done music-related indexes for several publishers. There seems to be less of it each year, and one of my main contacts for music theory/history/criticism told me they weren't getting as many manuscripts. I don't know if that's just that particular publisher or an unfortunate trend. I was a music major and so try to look for publishers who specialize in music theory. It's a good thing I can index other types of material. Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net