From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Wed Sep 16 15:46:42 1998 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:08:01 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9807D" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:26:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: French names Let's say you have a name like Pierre d'Affry to index (I made it up). I would probably index it this way: Affry, Pierre d' As odd as that "d'" looks to me, I know it's allowed. But when you don't have a first name it looks *really* odd, like this actual name I need to index: Affry, Colonel d' I'm stuck with it, I guess. Do any of you treat this differently? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:58:25 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: French names Ms. Roberts-- > > Let's say you have a name like Pierre d'Affry to index (I made it up). > I would probably index it this way: > > Affry, Pierre d' > > As odd as that "d'" looks to me, I know it's allowed. But when you > don't have a first name it looks *really* odd It's the absence of the *second* name (Affry) that makes it look odd. > Do any of you treat this differently? I'd say "it depends." If this were a modern name, then "d'"--the elided form of "de"--is part of the surname "d'Affry." In English, this sort of name eventually merges into one word, such as Vanderbilt (originally three words). In this case, I'd index it as d'Affry, Pierre and list it with the A's, as well as the D's. On the other hand, Chicago 13 (18.102) shows the following examples and suggests you consult Webster's New Biographical Dictionary on a case-by-case basis: Cervantes, Miguel de D'Annunzio, Gabrielle de Kruif, Paul De la Mare, Walter De La Rey, Jacobus De Valera, Eamon (among others) Finally, if this were the name of an historical figure, the "de" still meant "of" in a much more literal sense (like "Joseph of Aramethea"). Because there *is* no following word to necessitate the elided form, so you might consider this alternative: Affry, Pierre de I love this stuff! --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:51:36 +0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: French names In-Reply-To: > > Affry, Colonel d' > Affry, d' (Colonel) ? Otherwise some sod of a parent might have saddled him with the forename 'Colonel'. However, if I couldn't find the right forename I would include it in queries to the author. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:10:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Sales Tax Since someone brought up the interstate commerce/tax issue... In my home state of New Jersey, consumers are supposed to pay (to New Jersey) sales tax on products purchased in other states where the sales tax is lower than our 6%. For example, if I buy a cordless phone in a state with 4% sales tax, I am supposed to pay to New Jersey the 2% tax difference. I don't recall the exact wording of this without checking the form, but I got the impression this "rule" applies to mail-ordered items from other states, too. Maybe this will get me into trouble, but I don't know ANY New Jerseyans who actually bother filling out this form each year and mailing in their "excess" sales tax. It's probably meant to reduce NJ residents' temptation to shop in nearby Delaware, where there is no sales tax. I don't worry too much, since most of my out-of-state shopping is done in Pennsylvania where I work, and the sales tax there is also 6%. We receive a separate form for this each year with our NJ income tax form. Just thought it was interesting. -------------------------------------------- Anne B. Day Editorial Production Manager ph: (215) 731-2227 Professional Jeweler magazine fax: (215) 545-9629 Bond Communications aday@professionaljeweler.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:20:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: name question In-Reply-To: <199807220400.XAA09895@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I have a quick question about how to index a person's name. >The person is referred to in the book as > >Calvin "Big Boy" Davis >Big Boy >Big Boy Davis >Calvin Davis I treat that situation this way if the number of locators does *not* warrant a cross-ref.: Big Boy (Calvin Davis) Davis, Calvin ("Big Boy") Or this way, if it *does*: Big Boy. _See_ Davis, Calvin Davis, Calvin ("Big Boy") Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:32:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Re: Sales Tax Connecticut has the same kind of tax law as New Jersey concerning out-of-state and catalog purchases. I suspect the compliance is about the same too. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:17:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Index Length Hi - Is there an average length for an index? That is, in terms of ms. pages, single column width, doubled spaced copy? Of course, depth of index and length of book are key, but my guess is that it is around 50 ms. pages or less. I'm working on one that will run around 120 ms. pages. This seems uncommonly long. Particularly since the page proofs only run to 273 pages, with lots of pictures. It's a coffee-table format. My limit is 3000 lines. Although this includes wrapped lines, it still seems like a lot of index for the size of book it is. This means around 8 entries per page. Actually more, because a lot of the pages are only half pages. The sample index they sent me runs 20 pages for a 275-page, non coffee-table-format book. Maybe it just seems endless at this point -- but I'm curious to know what others' experience is. Also, what has been your experience with book designers? Do they usually come into the picture before you do the index or after you've sent in the copy? I've tried to find out if this is to be a 2 or 3 column index but they haven't decided. Seems to me that knowing in advance what the approximate final column width will be is an important tool in determining how long the index actually runs. I've decided to edit to an approximate 40-character width column and hope for the best! Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:22:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Did you index this book? If the person who indexed _Letters to Vermont from Her Civil War Soldiers to the Home Press_ is on this list, please contact me. The publisher made a comment about the index on another list that I'm on. Cheers, Deborah shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:25:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Index Length Roughly a third my indexes (and I index many genres and topics) end up more than 8 entries per page, so you may not be out of the ballpark. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:00:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Campbell Subject: Chapter summaries A question for those who index textbooks: How do you handle chapter summaries? The ones I see typically run a page or two. My current approach is to index them if they introduce new material to the discussion, but not if they simply restate the chapter's content in a condensed form. Any other views? Kevin Campbell Greenleaf Editorial LLC kevinc@itis.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:47:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nickel, Joyce" Subject: Re: French names I've always seen the D (also de, di, da) as part of the surname. A quick glance at the phone book confirms this. I would index this person as D'Affry, Pierre. -----Original Message----- From: Carol Roberts [SMTP:Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 9:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: French names Let's say you have a name like Pierre d'Affry to index (I made it up). I would probably index it this way: Affry, Pierre d' As odd as that "d'" looks to me, I know it's allowed. But when you don't have a first name it looks *really* odd, like this actual name I need to index: Affry, Colonel d' I'm stuck with it, I guess. Do any of you treat this differently? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:52:04 -0400 Reply-To: dbrenner@javanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: Chapter summaries Kevin Campbell wrote: > > A question for those who index textbooks: How do you handle chapter > summaries? The ones I see typically run a page or two. My current approach > is to index them if they introduce new material to the discussion, but not > if they simply restate the chapter's content in a condensed form. Any other > views? > Kevin Campbell > Greenleaf Editorial LLC > kevinc@itis.com Keven, I generally don't index them at all, since, as a rule, new material shouldn't be introduced in an end-of-the-chapter summary; or, if it is :-), it is usually just a preview mention of a subject that will be discussed in future chapter(s). Diane Diane Brenner Indexing Services dbrenner@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:21:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Dempsey, Mark F." Subject: Re: Chapter summaries As to whether to index chapter summaries, think of what index users would want. I imagine that at least some index users might want to know where material for a chapter is pulled together and discussed in condensed form. Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Diane Brenner [SMTP:dbrenner@javanet.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 12:52 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Chapter summaries > > Kevin Campbell wrote: > > > > A question for those who index textbooks: How do you handle chapter > > summaries? The ones I see typically run a page or two. My current > approach > > is to index them if they introduce new material to the discussion, but > not > > if they simply restate the chapter's content in a condensed form. Any > other > > views? > > Kevin Campbell > > Greenleaf Editorial LLC > > kevinc@itis.com > > Keven, I generally don't index them at all, since, as a rule, new > material shouldn't be introduced in an end-of-the-chapter summary; or, > if it is :-), it is usually just a preview mention of a subject that > will be discussed in future chapter(s). > > Diane > > Diane Brenner Indexing Services > dbrenner@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:34:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chapter summaries It has depended for me on how extensive the chapter summaries are. For example, if it is just a list of what was discussed, then I don't index it. But if it is a restatement, even a concise one, of a concept or theory that may help the student grasp the more complex explanation, then I do index it. I've found that sometimes authors talk around a point and give difficult explanations or definitions and then are much clearer in the summaries. A locator pointing to the clearer explanation would certainly help those poor struggling students. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:36:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Babbitt Subject: Re: Chapter Summaries I've just finished copyediting a sociology text book with unit summaries that did, in fact, introduce new subjects. They discuss macroconcepts that provide a context for the material that follows. It's a good way to encourage students to apply one set of ideas to a new set of ideas. I hope that the indexer *does* index those ideas. Kathy Babbitt kbab@northnet.org Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:02:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Chapter summaries In-Reply-To: <199807221605.JAA16392@decibel.electriciti.com> I am delighted Kevin asked this question. I follow his current approach, but also wonder about other views. At 11:00 AM 7/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >A question for those who index textbooks: How do you handle chapter >summaries? The ones I see typically run a page or two. My current approach >is to index them if they introduce new material to the discussion, but not >if they simply restate the chapter's content in a condensed form. Any other >views? >Kevin Campbell >Greenleaf Editorial LLC >kevinc@itis.com > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:58:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Re: French names Surely whether or not one can divorce the d' from the name depends on whether the person is French, Belgian or "anglicized"? According to the Society of Indexers "Training in Indexing", Unit B "Choi= ce and Form of Entries": = Belgian custom is to alphabetise under the prefix. Afrikaans is something= else again . . . = Hope this helps. Sue Lightfoot Cornwall, England ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:05:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Re: Chapter Summaries As someone who has been a "poor struggling student" for the last seven years, I can honestly say that indexes that referred to chapter summaries were very helpful. Not every textbook is read cover-to-cover...90% of the time I used them as references only. I could quickly acces the info that I needed in a condensed "summarised" form. I think summaries should be indexed for textbooks. As an additional note, as a teacher I take careful notice of a textbook's index, and in all of my classes I have students comment on how easy the textbooks were to use. Indexes are frequently mentioned! Often these comments determine if a book is used in the following semester. -- Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:54:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: French names On 7/22/98 12:58 Paul Lightfoot wrote (in part): >According to the Society of Indexers "Training in Indexing", Unit B "Choi= >ce >and Form of Entries": > >begins with the preposition 'de' or its abbreviation 'd', in which case t= >he >preposition alone is transposed: = True. This is also the convention in Webster's New Biographical Dictionary. It is also Mulvany's recommended convention as well as that of CMS. Still, I think the audience should be considered. An example I have in mind is that in the U.S. one seldom hears references to "Gaulle" when the object is Charles de Gaulle. The preferred usage is "de Gaulle." And I think that a nonacademic audience would expect to find an entry under "de Gaulle," at the minimum a See reference chasing them through the index to "Gaulle." Again, as with whether or not we index "Los Angeles" under A or under L, I believe these decisions must be made on a case-by-case basis and cannot be subjected to the rigidity of rules. And of course by this time Carol has probably already made her decision and is busy on the next index, right? :) Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:47:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker --------------7F094893695F5F7249C9E47A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question from a newcomer to the list: Situation: I'm presently indexing a set of manuals with Word 7 for Windows, because I have to embed the index entries for compiling as Help, HTML, etc., as well as publishing as books with index. I'd MUCH prefer to work with dedicated indexing software, but don't know if the result can be combined with the document file and compiled. I'm looking at doing another set of manuals, as soon as I finish this one. Question: Can you put an index created with CINDEX, MACREX, or SKY Index, into a Word or FrameMaker document? That is, is there any way of auto-embedding index entries at points in the text, if you create the index with one of the above, but have to generate the index WITH the book for different outputs? In other words, can you embed the C, M, or SI index entries into a W or F file and output the index and book in HTML, Help for Windows/Mac, and as a paper-publishable book with index, properly paginated with correct page and cross references? Anyone any experience with this? Thanks for any help at all. Rivka Arieli "Some days high tech is two four-letter words!" RA --------------7F094893695F5F7249C9E47A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question from a newcomer to the list:

Situation: I'm presently indexing a set of manuals with Word 7 for Windows, because I have to embed the index entries for compiling as Help, HTML, etc., as well as publishing as books with index. I'd MUCH prefer to work with dedicated indexing software, but don't know if the result can be combined with the document file and compiled. I'm looking at doing another set of manuals, as soon as I finish this one.

Question: Can you put an index created with CINDEX, MACREX, or SKY Index, into a Word or FrameMaker document?

That is, is there any way of auto-embedding index entries at points in the text, if you create the index with one of the above, but have to generate the index WITH the book for different outputs? In other words, can you embed the C, M, or SI index entries into a W or F file and output the index and book in HTML, Help for Windows/Mac, and as a paper-publishable book with index, properly paginated with correct page and cross references?

Anyone any experience with this?

Thanks for any help at all.

Rivka Arieli

"Some days high tech is two four-letter words!" RA --------------7F094893695F5F7249C9E47A-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:51:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: Which product is best? If you were going to buy indexing software today, to index: user manuals technical manuals non-fiction books in medicine, pharmaceuticals, and health, Which software would you buy? And why? CINDEX MACREX SKY Index Cost is a lower priority than ease-of-use, excellent support, trouble-free operation. I've been reading and exploring the web sites of all three, and watching the list for a while, but can't find specific info about my needs. Thanks for all comments and ideas. Rivka Arieli "I remember typewriters..." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:59:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199807222049.QAA29700@camel10.mindspring.com> You can always import a cindex or macrex index's rtf file, and if your page breaks match the index will be correct, but unconnected to the file, really. But there isn't a way to put the cindex entries directly into embedded index codes in the document unless you are willing to write lots of arcane macros. If you are willing, here's how it would have to work. You need to have a unique ID number for each paragraph in the document, and a way to keep track of the file name the numbers are in. You then index to the ID number, not the page, in your indexing tool. You then export the index as a tab-delimited files with hopefully the right punctuation for Word or Frame codes needed, and you have a macro then walk the files, and copying and pasting in the entries into XE fields or Frame markers. I hear this has been done in house at places like Frame. Microsoft has its own inhouse tools for doing this in Word, but it uses an excel spreadsheet for the indexing. If you are thinking of moving to Frame, you might think about IXGEN. I haven't used it yet, just got it, but it doesn't allow a mass import either - I checked with Sterns about that. But it may make the indexing job easier... I have been wanting tools like these for quite a while, but most people don't understand why... It is because I can't be tying up the files indexing at the end of a manual's production cycle - I need to be out of the files, and only go in to push in the indexing and compile and test. Production folks and editorial need those files in their hands at that end time, and having me tie them up is a nightmare. So this is something that is DESPERATELY needed. Wish I was a programmer or a better macro writer, I can tell you! Jan Wright At 01:47 PM 7/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >--------------7F094893695F5F7249C9E47A >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Question from a newcomer to the list: > >Situation: I'm presently indexing a set of manuals with Word 7 for >Windows, because I have to embed the index entries for compiling >as Help, HTML, etc., as well as publishing as books with index. >I'd MUCH prefer to work with dedicated indexing software, but >don't know if the result can be combined with the document file >and compiled. I'm looking at doing another set of manuals, as soon >as I finish this one. > >Question: Can you put an index created with CINDEX, MACREX, or SKY >Index, into a Word or FrameMaker document? > >That is, is there any way of auto-embedding index entries at >points in the text, if you create the index with one of the above, >but have to generate the index WITH the book for different >outputs? In other words, can you embed the C, M, or SI index >entries into a W or F file and output the index and book in HTML, >Help for Windows/Mac, and as a paper-publishable book with index, >properly paginated with correct page and cross references? > >Anyone any experience with this? > >Thanks for any help at all. > >Rivka Arieli > >"Some days high tech is two four-letter words!" RA > >--------------7F094893695F5F7249C9E47A >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >Question from a newcomer to the list: >

Situation: I'm presently indexing a set of manuals with Word >7 for Windows, because I have to embed the index entries for compiling >as Help, HTML, etc., as well as publishing as books with index. I'd MUCH >prefer to work with dedicated indexing software, but don't know if the >result can be combined with the document file and compiled. I'm looking >at doing another set of manuals, as soon as I finish this one. >

Question: Can you put an index created with CINDEX, MACREX, or >SKY Index, into a Word or FrameMaker document? >

That is, is there any way of auto-embedding index entries at points >in the text, if you create the index with one of the above, but have to >generate the index WITH the book for different outputs? In other words, >can you embed the C, M, or SI index entries into a W or F file and output >the index and book in HTML, Help for Windows/Mac, and as a paper-publishable >book with index, properly paginated with correct page and cross references? >

Anyone any experience with this? >

Thanks for any help at all. >

Rivka Arieli >

"Some days high tech is two four-letter words!" RA > >--------------7F094893695F5F7249C9E47A-- > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:50:02 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: Sort order in phone books In-Reply-To: <900974936.2126326.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In article <900974936.2126326.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, rivka writes >Does anyone know if there are standards for the sort order in >telephone directories? > The page headed "How to find a number" in my local UK telephone directory reads as follows: (Letters that I have shown as, e.g. _X_, are underlined in the original.) =============== Start of quotation ========================= Listed by ========= Surname ------- Entries in this Phone Book are listed first alphabetically by surname.... _A_DAMS B, 49 Fore St ...... _B_AKER E.M, 7 Parade ...... _C_RANE R, 1 Watt St ...... _D_AVIES Trevor, 24 High St ...... _E_DWARDS A.B, 1 The Lanes ...... Forenames and initials ---------------------- Then alphabetically by initials or the forename .... ABBOTT _A_, 7 Water La ...... _B_, 25 Fox La ...... _C_, 109 High St ...... _D_enton, 16 York Rise ...... _E_, 85 Long La ...... Locality -------- Then they are listed alphabetically by street name or, if there is no street name, by locality. BROWN A, 14 _A_mbIeside Mansions.. A, 27 _B_rick Rd ...... A, 99 _C_hapel St ...... A, 85 _D_egas Drive ...... A, 71 _E_ndelI Rd ...... Like sounding names =================== Check alternative spellings of names, for example READ...REED...REID... Unconnected words ================= If an entry has two or more unconnected words, for example HALL SMITH, the first word is treated as the surname and the second word as a forename. Prefixes ======== ST comes after SAINT, which occurs after SAH. _SAH_ A, 12 Dales Clo ...... _SAH_ Z, 15 Cecil St ...... _SAINT_ B.J, 17 Homer Rd ...... _ST_ CLARE, High St ...... M', MC, MAC are all treated as MAC, the next letter determines the position. MA_B_EY T, 63 Wilsons La ...... MC_B_RIDE J, 64 Manning Clo ...... MAC_C_ULLUM P, 289 Kings Rd ...... MC_E_WAN S, 24 Bembo Rd ...... DE, DE LA and DU are arranged together, such that all DE'S will be together and all DE LA'S will be together after that, and so on. The order is determined by the next letter in the name. DAYVILLE A, 7 Box St ...... _DE A_NGEL P.A, 16 AlIisson St ...... _DE B_ERRY P.A, 17 Upper Hill ...... _DE LA R_UE, 3 Egerton Street ...... _DE LA S_ILVA, 17 Cats Walk ...... Punctuation, etc ================ & ampersands, ' apostrophes and - hyphens are disregarded. ========================= End of quoted page =========================== Comment: The above instructions do not make it clear that only the initials of personal forenames are taken account of in filing. Examination of the directory shows, for example, that TAYLOR Colin C. files before TAYLOR Charles D. and SMITH Rob, 191 Kings Head Hill ...... files before SMITH Reg, 34 Oakwood Hill ...... I have always thought it rather sensible to take account of initials before full names, because if you know the full names you can easily reduce them to initials, whereas if you know only an initial such as "R" you have no way of telling whether you should be searching among the Robs or the Regs. Whether you should ignore the rest of the full names altogether and move on the next filing element (the address in this case) is an interesting point for discussion. Hope this is of some interest. Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 181 372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex, EN2 7BQ, UK Fax: +44 181 372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk --------------- --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:59:40 +1000 Reply-To: Diagonal@onaustralia.com.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Sort order in phone books > Does anyone know if there are standards for the sort order in > telephone directories? The Sydney phone book (Australia) has half a page describing its sorting rules (on page 56, listed in the contents as 'How to find names in this directory'. Examples include: entries are sorted by the first name or initial, then by the letters that follow (so Brown, Z files before Browning); Mc files as Mac; St files as Saint; and so on. If you are looking for formal *standards*, however, I don't know whether they exist. Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:24:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Consortium of Freelancers and Publishers Chat Schedule Hi, The following is Consortium of Freelancer and Publishers' August chat sch= edule=0Aalong with the last chat in July and first one in September. We h= ave changed=0Athe time to 9:00 Eastern Time and Dwight's chats have been = moved to Thursday=0Ainstead of Friday. I hope this will better suit every= one's schedule and hope=0Ato see you there. I will only post the schedule once a month so if you would like to be put= on=0Athe weekly reminder e-mail list, please e-mail me at: consortims@ao= l.com PLEASE DO NOT HIT REPLY WITHOUT CHANGING THE ADDRESS...:) Date =3D Thursday, July 23, 1998, 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time -=A0Friday 24, 1998 =0911:00 a.m. Australian Time =09 Host =3D Dwight Walker, Owner of WWWalker Web Development =09 Topic - Web Indexing =09 Date =3D Thursday, August 6, 1998, Time =3D 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time =09 Host =3D Gale Rhoades, Macrex Support Office =09 Topic - Macrex Indexing Software =09 Date =3D Thursday, August 27, 1998 Time =3D 9:00 p.m. EDT -=A0Saturday 28, 1998 10:00 a.m. Australian Time = =09 Host =3D Dwight Walker, Owner of WWWalker Web Development =09 Topic =3D Web Indexing =09 Date =3D Tuesday, September 1, 1998 Time =3D 9:00 p.m. EDT =09 Host =3D Kamm Y. Schreiner, President of SKY Software =09 Topic =3D SKY Index=0A ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:32:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199807222102.RAA13803@camel16.mindspring.com> At 01:59 PM 7/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >I have been wanting tools like these for quite a while, but most people >don't understand why... It is because I can't be tying up the files >indexing at the end of a manual's production cycle - I need to be out of >the files, and only go in to push in the indexing and compile and test. >Production folks and editorial need those files in their hands at that end >time, and having me tie them up is a nightmare. So this is something that >is DESPERATELY needed. Wish I was a programmer or a better macro writer, I >can tell you! Same here. I can envision what such a program would do, but I don't have the expertise to create one. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:55:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker I agree AB-SO-@(#*$&-lutely with these comments, particularly after today's frustrating work with Word and complex indexes for 8 manuals currently, and more to come. Can we all write letters to CINDEX, MACREX, et al, begging and pleading desperately for this development? Or is there a better route? Thanks to everyone for the support and the advice. It is extremely helpful, and I find this a terrific list. People are even more thoughtful and detailed in responding than the folks on the TECHWR-L list. Cheers everyone Rivka Arieli Richard Evans wrote: > At 01:59 PM 7/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I have been wanting tools like these for quite a while, but most people > >don't understand why... It is because I can't be tying up the files > >indexing at the end of a manual's production cycle - I need to be out of > >the files, and only go in to push in the indexing and compile and test. > >Production folks and editorial need those files in their hands at that end > >time, and having me tie them up is a nightmare. So this is something that > >is DESPERATELY needed. Wish I was a programmer or a better macro writer, I > >can tell you! > > Same here. I can envision what such a program would do, but I don't have > the expertise to create one. > > Dick Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:18:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: Q on indexing set of manuals with Word7 --------------E3388255FE03490391185796 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone advise me from experience on this one. I'm cross-posting to TECHWR-L and an indexing list. Please reply to rivka@direct.ca and I'll summarize responses for the lists. Situation: I'm indexing a set of single-source manuals, written in Word 7 for PC, to be compiled by Doc-2-Help into Help for Windows, re-compiled after that for Quickhelp on the Mac, compiled as PDF files, and printed as paper documents. They may also become HTML files. All need indexes. When this set is done, there's another set to be indexed, but only for PC, not for Mac. Otherwise, same situation, and roughly same number of manuals. I am unable to use dedicated indexing software such as CINDEX or SKY Index, as these apps don't provide for embedded entries, so far as I know. Questions: Do you build a set of index entries outside the files, edit them, and make them as final as possible before inserting index entries in the documents? If so, why? Or do you insert entries before editing the index? If so, why? Or do you use dedicated indexing software and somehow insert the entries? IF YOU DO, HOW DO YOU DO IT--this would be fabulous, if you've figured out how. Please let me and I'll joyfully pass it along to other indexers. Thanks all for any info you can provide. Rivka Arieli --------------E3388255FE03490391185796 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone advise me from experience on this one. I'm cross-posting to TECHWR-L and an indexing list. Please reply to rivka@direct.ca and I'll summarize responses for the lists.

Situation: I'm indexing a set of single-source manuals, written in Word 7 for PC, to be compiled by Doc-2-Help into Help for Windows, re-compiled after that for Quickhelp on the Mac, compiled as PDF files, and printed as paper documents. They may also become HTML files. All need indexes.

When this set is done, there's another set to be indexed, but only for PC, not for Mac. Otherwise, same situation, and roughly same number of manuals.

I am unable to use dedicated indexing software such as CINDEX or SKY Index, as these apps don't provide for embedded entries, so far as I know.

Questions:
Do you build a set of index entries outside the files, edit them, and make them as final as possible before inserting index entries in the documents? If so, why?

Or do you insert entries before editing the index? If so, why?

Or do you use dedicated indexing software and somehow insert the entries? IF YOU DO, HOW DO YOU DO IT--this would be fabulous, if you've figured out how. Please let me and I'll joyfully pass it along to other indexers.

Thanks all for any info you can provide.
Rivka Arieli --------------E3388255FE03490391185796-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:39:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Q on indexing set of manuals with Word7 In-Reply-To: <199807222320.TAA02987@camel23.mindspring.com> This sounds like fun. Hey, and I will bet you have a horrid deadline as well to meet, right???? >>>>Questions: Do you build a set of index entries outside the files, edit them, and make them as final as possible before inserting index entries in the documents? If so, why?<<<<< I always build outside the files and then insert them. I have found editing indexes in Word to be so tedious and timewasting that it is just not worth it. You can focus on your editing, and on the content, and not on what a large-scale nasty pain it is. The nastiness alone will cause you to sacrifice quality in the index. If you ask yourself if each and every edit is "worth it", many of them may not be made simply out of time and lack-of-patience. >>>Or do you insert entries before editing the index? If so, why?<<< Every time I do this, I regret it. I think "Oh it is just a little project, no biggie, I will just index in Word this time. And 2 hours into the edit I am cursing my foolishness. >>Or do you use dedicated indexing software and somehow insert the entries? IF YOU DO, HOW DO YOU DO IT--this would be fabulous, if you've figured out how. Please let me and I'll joyfully pass it along to other indexers.<<< Does Doc-2-Help still build the index entries from your K footnotes, and store it all in a main .ini file the way it used to? I haven't looked at the latest version of it, so I am not sure what it is doing now. It used to be you just added your winhelp keywording, and it built the XE codes for the print doc. So that is reducing one set down. I would still build the index outside the files and then copy and paste it in there when it is ready.... Jan Wright At 04:18 PM 7/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >--------------E3388255FE03490391185796 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Can anyone advise me from experience on this one. I'm >cross-posting to TECHWR-L and an indexing list. Please reply to >rivka@direct.ca and I'll summarize responses for the lists. > >Situation: I'm indexing a set of single-source manuals, written in >Word 7 for PC, to be compiled by Doc-2-Help into Help for Windows, >re-compiled after that for Quickhelp on the Mac, compiled as PDF >files, and printed as paper documents. They may also become HTML >files. All need indexes. > >When this set is done, there's another set to be indexed, but only >for PC, not for Mac. Otherwise, same situation, and roughly same >number of manuals. > >I am unable to use dedicated indexing software such as CINDEX or >SKY Index, as these apps don't provide for embedded entries, so >far as I know. > >Questions: >Do you build a set of index entries outside the files, edit them, >and make them as final as possible before inserting index entries >in the documents? If so, why? > >Or do you insert entries before editing the index? If so, why? > >Or do you use dedicated indexing software and somehow insert the >entries? IF YOU DO, HOW DO YOU DO IT--this would be fabulous, if >you've figured out how. Please let me and I'll joyfully pass it >along to other indexers. > >Thanks all for any info you can provide. >Rivka Arieli > >--------------E3388255FE03490391185796 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >Can anyone advise me from experience on this one. I'm cross-posting to >TECHWR-L and an indexing list. Please reply to rivka@direct.ca and I'll >summarize responses for the lists. >

Situation: I'm indexing a set of single-source manuals, written >in Word 7 for PC, to be compiled by Doc-2-Help into Help for Windows, > re-compiled >after that for Quickhelp on the Mac, compiled as PDF files, and printed >as paper documents. They may also become HTML files. All need indexes. >

When this set is done, there's another set to be indexed, but only for >PC, not for Mac. Otherwise, same situation, and roughly same number of >manuals. >

I am unable to use dedicated indexing software such as CINDEX or SKY >Index, as these apps don't provide for embedded entries, so far as I know. >

Questions: >
Do you build a set of index entries outside the files, edit them, and >make them as final as possible before inserting index entries in the documents? >If so, why? >

Or do you insert entries before editing the index? If so, why? >

Or do you use dedicated indexing software and somehow insert the entries? >IF YOU DO, HOW DO YOU DO IT--this would be fabulous, if you've figured >out how. Please let me and I'll joyfully pass it along to other indexers. >

Thanks all for any info you can provide. >
Rivka Arieli > >--------------E3388255FE03490391185796-- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:08:16 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J R V Prescott Subject: Place names Craig, One should never invert any part of the place name of a city or town, such as suggested with Los Angeles. This is a no no. Other types of place names referring to physical features such as rivers, mountains etc. may be, for example,' Macedon, Mt, ' which is the mountain, but 'for the town of the same name the form is ' Mount Macedon'. Cheers, Dorothy Prescott JRV and DF Prescott East Brighton Victoria 3187 AUSTRALIA Phone 61 3 9592 5156 Fax 61 3 9593 1624 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:32:17 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Q on indexing set of manuals with Word7 Rivka-- It sounds like you've given up on single-sourcing. If so, you're really asking about the indexing process in general. I think of it as a matter of personal style. Here's mine. Creating an index for a print document: 1. Insert index entries, page by page. (Word doesn't make this particularly graceful, but it can be done.) 2. Build the index. 3. Check for inconsistencies. 4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until I'm satisfied with the index. : n. "Tweak" styles as needed. Creating Windows help: 1. Insert index entries, topic by topic. (Help authoring tools approach this with varying degrees of grace.) 2. Compile the help file. 3. Check for inconsistencies. : n. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until I'm satisfied with the index. Creating a "back-of-the-book"-style index for a set of HTML files: 1. Specify the files I want to include in the index. 2. Replace and supplement the default index entries as needed. 3. Exclude file-level and anchor-level index entries as needed. 4. Check for inconsistencies. 5. Set up various stylistic options, or accept the default settings. 6. Build the index. 7. "Tweak" the HTML as needed. 8. Add links to the index from my HTML source files as needed. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Cindex data into Word Having seen recent mails on this subject, let me say that this is in our minds as something to provide a solution for. That is, a way to drag&drop et al. index entries from Cindex into Word as embedded entries. While this problem statement on the surface seems clear there are always lots of design issues. Not the least of which is you'd need a different application for each type of word processor/DTP system. Since the embedded indexing encoding and methodologies vary between these systems. My sense is that Word is very popular and becoming more so. Of course, this is often driven by the publisher's in-house standard. But often WordPerfect can import word and certainly WP and Frame etc. can import RTF. I'd like to collect (off-line) user requirements for this "utility". I have some already from discussing it in person with various interested parties. And the all-important question what do the marketplace think is a reasonable price for such a product? Dave Leverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 440-838-1203 E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:36:56 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Web site address Hi everyone, Does anyone know the web site/email address for Food Writers of America? I have been trying to locate their address for so many months, but no luck. Any help would be appreciated. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services Sahai-Co@msn.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:52:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Cindex data into Word In-Reply-To: <199807230235.WAA11200@camel10.mindspring.com> At 10:38 PM 7/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >Having seen recent mails on this subject, let me say that this is in our >minds as something to provide a solution for. That is, a way to drag&drop et >al. index entries from Cindex into Word as embedded entries. > Drag and drop would be a step in the right direction but still way to slow. What is really needed is a way to simply point a Cindex index at a Word file and have the entries embedded in their correct locations. Word has the ability to display a line number for every line in the file. Is there, perhaps, a way to use the line number as part of the Cindex locater, then have a conversion utility home in on that line number to insert a tag? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: Cindex data into Word -----Original Message----- From: Richard Evans To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 10:50 PM Subject: Re: Cindex data into Word >At 10:38 PM 7/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Having seen recent mails on this subject, let me say that this is in our >>minds as something to provide a solution for. That is, a way to drag&drop et >>al. index entries from Cindex into Word as embedded entries. >> Drag and drop was just an example of one method. Another is to point to a Cindex entry then to a place in the Word document and hit a key. Another is to "walk" through the Cindex entries (in page order) and bring them up for display one at a time, then click in the Word doc for each. This is what I'd like to hear what is the work flow that best suits the potential users. >Drag and drop would be a step in the right direction but still way to slow. > What is really needed is a way to simply point a Cindex index at a Word >file and have the entries embedded in their correct locations. > >Word has the ability to display a line number for every line in the file. >Is there, perhaps, a way to use the line number as part of the Cindex >locater, then have a conversion utility home in on that line number to >insert a tag? > Dave Ream Leverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 440-838-1203 E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:49:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: French names You wrote: > >Surely whether or not one can divorce the d' from the name depends on >whether the person is French, Belgian or "anglicized"? Yes, if an English or American resident, the name is treated as solid De Quincey, Thomas De Mille, Agnes B. And by the way, even if alphabetizing is word-by-word, the space after the particle "De" is ignored, so the name is alph'd as if spelled Dequincey (sorts after "Depew") >According to the Society of Indexers "Training in Indexing", Unit B >"Choice and Form of Entries": >In French [. . .] the whole phrase is used as it stands, This is not very clear. "What" whole phrase? But the examples are clear. >Magny, Olivier de> a typical example >Alembert, Jean le Rond d' not a typical example >La Taille, Jean de because articles "La" etc. stand in front >Du Bellay, Joachim because "Du" = "De" + "Le" > >Sue Lightfoot "De Gaulle" is alphabetized under "D", even in France. Don't know why - perhaps he was not "really" noble, and "Gaulle" is not a placename. Often I index books that were originally published in French. If I know this is the case, I ask for a photocopy of the French index, if any. Presumably, the French know how to arrange their own family names. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:09:00 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Terminology I recently asked what terms indexers would use for the various elements of an HTML-based index. Very few people offered an opinion--perhaps there aren't many professional indexers working on web sites or other HTML files. Anyway, I promised I'd post the results after a few days, and the responses were interesting (at least to me!), so here they are. Given this example: > A | B | C | D | E | F | G | ... | Z > > -A- > apple > apricot > > -B- > baker > bosc pear > > -C- > cinnamon > cobbler ... what would you call these things? > 1. The *group* of links that lead into the body of the index, and > 2. the individual links within that group: > > A | B | C | D | E | F | G | ... | Z + 'Metaindex' / 'section links' + 'Letter head shortcut bar' / 'letter head shortcuts' + 'Index toolbar' [and 'tools'?] + 'Alpha links' or 'header links' / 'A link' ('B link,' ...) + 'Alpha bar' / 'letter links' or 'links from the alpha bar' + 'Button bar' / 'letter buttons' [prefers graphics] > 3. The labels on each letter group: > > -A-, -B-, -C-, ... + 'Section headers' + 'Letter heads' or 'letter head anchors' + 'Headwords' or 'head letters' > 4. The alphabetized links in the body of the index: > > apple, apricot, baker, bosc pear, cinnamon, cobbler, ... + 'Index entries' + 'Locators' + 'Index links' + 'Target links' My sincere thanks to those who responded! --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: How to put a text and its index on Web? * Problem is to put a text of several hundred thousand words (and perhaps graphics) onto the Web; then put a conventional-style index to that text as another page on the Web; then make the index dynamic (you click on a page reference, it takes you to the indicated page of text). The text is already on the Web; and the index already exists in print form, and as a wordprocessing file. How now to link the index to the text? HTML is probably one way to do it, but not the only way. Are there any texts+indexes already on the Web that can be read and queried? If anybody out there has actually created such a thing, I'd like to hear from you. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:46:54 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wilson, Alan (DPL)" Subject: Re: How to put a text and its index on Web? Peter Isn't this the same problem, whether or not the entity being indexed is one large text or a set of web pages? If there's no difference, then there are many examples around. See, for example, http://www.aph.gov.au/parlindx.htm Alan Wilson Director, Information Resources Management Department of the Parliamentary Library Parliament House, Canberra, ACT 2600, Australia --------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone: (02) 6277 2570 Fax: (02) 6277 2622 Email: Alan.Wilson@aph.gov.au DPL website: http://www.aph.gov.au/library/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Rooney [SMTP:magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM] > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 3:15 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: How to put a text and its index on Web? > > * > Problem is to put a text of several hundred thousand words (and > perhaps > graphics) onto the Web; then put a conventional-style index to that > text as another page on the Web; then make the index dynamic (you > click > on a page reference, it takes you to the indicated page of text). The > text is already on the Web; and the index already exists in print > form, > and as a wordprocessing file. How now to link the index to the text? > HTML is probably one way to do it, but not the only way. Are there any > texts+indexes already on the Web that can be read and queried? If > anybody out there has actually created such a thing, I'd like to hear > from you. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:28:22 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: French names Peter Rooney gave this advice: ... if an English or American resident, the name is treated as solid De Quincey, Thomas De Mille, Agnes B. And by the way, even if alphabetizing is word-by-word, the space after the particle "De" is ignored, so the name is alph'd as if spelled Dequincey (sorts after "Depew") Peter, can you give some authority (textbook, standard, notable example, or instruction from a reputable publisher) for this compromise of word-by-word sorting mixed with letter-by-letter? Wellisch, 2nd edn, p. 16, sorts names such as "La Fayette" and "La Tour" before "Laas" and "Labe/" in his example of word-by-word sorting. >From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile (+64) 7-854-9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:44:20 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Q on indexing set of manuals with Word7 The message <199807230032.BAA07593@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > 2. Replace and supplement the default index entries as needed. David - what are the "default index entries"? -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:13:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker Isn't there a way of taking an existing list of index entries and having Word automatically tag those entries in the document? As I recall, this involves creating what the Word help file refers to as a "concordance file" (a 2-column table) that is then used to insert the index tags. Has anyone ever used this method? John Sullivan Stratus Computer (employed at least for today, that is) > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 6:32 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker > > At 01:59 PM 7/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I have been wanting tools like these for quite a while, but most people > >don't understand why... It is because I can't be tying up the files > >indexing at the end of a manual's production cycle - I need to be out of > >the files, and only go in to push in the indexing and compile and test. > >Production folks and editorial need those files in their hands at that > end > >time, and having me tie them up is a nightmare. So this is something that > >is DESPERATELY needed. Wish I was a programmer or a better macro writer, > I > >can tell you! > > Same here. I can envision what such a program would do, but I don't have > the expertise to create one. > > Dick Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:56:43 -0500 Reply-To: rumpergj@jmu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rumper, Gail J" Subject: thanks re name question THANKS! to everyone who responded to my question. I received some excellent advice. Gail --- rumpergj@jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:15:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judy Davis Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing ) > > Dear Indexers worldwide, > > I would very much appreciate your opinions on education and training for > indexing by answering the questions below. I will summarise responses and > forward to the list. Results will form part of research into education and > training in indexing by the Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region > Branch. Please contact me if you want more information about the purpose > of the project. Results will be summarised statistically and individual > responses will remain confidential. > > 1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? > > (a) "Back of book" / book indexing [x] > (b) Serial / journal indexing [x ] > (c) Document indexing / abstracting for databases [ ] > (d) Internet / Web indexing [ ] > (e) Other (please specify) > > 2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: > > (a) self taught? > > [ Yes ] > > (b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? > > [ No ] > > (c) through a correspondence course? > > [ No ] > > (d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? > > 3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level > courses offer sufficient indexing content? > > [ Don't know] > > 4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / > university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? > > > (a) introductory [ ] > (b) some [ ] > (c) substantial [ ] > > 5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing > here. > > 6. What country do you live in? USA > > Regards, > Susan MacDougall > Project Officer > Education and Training in Indexing > Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch > > > > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS > Indexer/librarian > Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group > Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) > Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk > ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from relay19.mx.aol.com (relay19.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.65]) by > air15.mail.aol.com (v45.16) with SMTP; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 05:11:02 -0400 > Received: from grape.EASE.LSOFT.COM (grape.ease.lsoft.com [206.241.12.34]) > by relay19.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with ESMTP id FAA27372; > Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:10:33 -0400 (EDT) > Message-Id: <199807080910.FAA27372@relay19.mx.aol.com> > Rec ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:23:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Cindex data into Word In-Reply-To: <199807230332.XAA04251@camel23.mindspring.com> At 11:36 PM 7/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >Drag and drop was just an example of one method. Another is to point to a >Cindex entry then to a place in the Word document and hit a key. Another is >to "walk" through the Cindex entries (in page order) and bring them up for >display one at a time, then click in the Word doc for each. And I'm saying that any method that requires me to transfer records one at a time is better than what we have now but still terribly slow. I would want something that transfers the entire index en masse. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:35:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199807231214.IAA19832@camel9.mindspring.com> At 08:13 AM 7/23/98 -0400, you wrote: >Isn't there a way of taking an existing list of index entries and having >Word automatically tag those entries in the document? As I recall, this >involves creating what the Word help file refers to as a "concordance file" >(a 2-column table) that is then used to insert the index tags. A concordance is not very efficient. All you can do is establish a list of words in your concordance and assign each one a corresponding index entry. Then you set Word to finding every occurrence of the concordance word and plugging in its corresponding index entry. Word finds only verbatim occurrences of the Word and cannot recognize synonyms or implied references. Furthermore, it indexes *every* occurrence of the concordance word, no matter how trivial. For instance, suppose you are indexing a book about HTML and you want to index the

tag. You create a simple concordance that says: "For every occurrence of '

', create an index entry in the form '

tag'. " You will index not only the section where the text discusses

tag syntax and usage but also every occurrence of every passing mention and every occurrence in every code sample. You would *not* get index entries for variations such as "tagging a paragraph", which imply but do not explicitly include the '

string. Also, you don't get any concept of the context of the occurrence. Suppose you have the word "downloading" in your concordance. Suppose the book talks about downloading in three different places: one is the simple definition of downloading, one is about downloading with FTP, and another is about downloading with Gopher. The concordance cannot identify and record those distinctions. You will get just an entry for downloading with three page numbers. Dick Evans Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:47:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker I think you can control whether Word tags every instance; I haven't used this method and in fact haven't used Word itself in some time, but my recollection is that by default Word tags the first instance in each paragraph. However, and again I'm relying on memory here, I'm pretty sure you can manage this "interactively" and decide which instances are tagged. Granted, this is not very efficient; however, it's perhaps a step above "manually" tagging each entry. It's important to keep in mind that Word is not an indexing program; indexing capabilities were kind of "thrown in" as an afterthought. However, if you're preparing Windows help files, indexing in Word is pretty much your only option. The much-maligned Indexicon had some capabilities for easing the indexing task in Word. John R. Sullivan Stratus Computer > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 9:36 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker > > At 08:13 AM 7/23/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Isn't there a way of taking an existing list of index entries and having > >Word automatically tag those entries in the document? As I recall, this > >involves creating what the Word help file refers to as a "concordance > file" > >(a 2-column table) that is then used to insert the index tags. > > A concordance is not very efficient. All you can do is establish a list > of > words in your concordance and assign each one a corresponding index entry. > Then you set Word to finding every occurrence of the concordance word and > plugging in its corresponding index entry. Word finds only verbatim > occurrences of the Word and cannot recognize synonyms or implied > references. Furthermore, it indexes *every* occurrence of the concordance > word, no matter how trivial. > > For instance, suppose you are indexing a book about HTML and you want to > index the

tag. You create a simple concordance that says: "For every > occurrence of '

', create an index entry in the form '

tag'. " You > will index not only the section where the text discusses

tag syntax > and > usage but also every occurrence of every passing mention and every > occurrence in every code sample. You would *not* get index entries for > variations such as "tagging a paragraph", which imply but do not > explicitly > include the '

string. > > Also, you don't get any concept of the context of the occurrence. Suppose > you have the word "downloading" in your concordance. Suppose the book > talks about downloading in three different places: one is the simple > definition of downloading, one is about downloading with FTP, and another > is about downloading with Gopher. The concordance cannot identify and > record those distinctions. You will get just an entry for downloading > with three page numbers. > > Dick Evans > > Dick Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:53:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Sales Tax In a message dated 7/22/98 9:16:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ADay@PROFESSIONALJEWELER.COM writes: >(Snip) > Since someone brought up the interstate commerce/tax issue... > > In my home state of New Jersey, consumers are supposed to pay (to New > Jersey) sales tax on products purchased in other states where the sales > tax is lower than our 6%. > In SC, we are supposed to pay tax on items purchased out of state by mail order if the merchant does not collect the SC tax themselves. When I had a business which sold some merchandise, we were told that we absolutely had to get a state "Use Tax" number and file the taxes. However, my husband, who is an accountant, says that "nobody ever bothers for personal purchases." I think the situation here is that there is no simple way for the Dept of Revenue to track down every individual's mail order purchases, but if you are a commercial business they will find you. Probably, if you have a business license you need to file because that would be the way the DOR would track you down. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:36:44 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing > > 1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? > > (a) "Back of book" / book indexing [x] > (b) Serial / journal indexing [x ] > (c) Document indexing / abstracting for databases [ ] > (d) Internet / Web indexing [ ] > (e) Other (please specify) > > 2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: > > (a) self taught? > > [ No ] > > (b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? > > [ No ] > > (c) through a correspondence course? > > [ Yes ] > > (d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? > > 3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level > courses offer sufficient indexing content? > > [ Don't know] > > 4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / > university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? > > > (a) introductory [ none ] > (b) some [ ] > (c) substantial [ ] > > 5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing > here. > > 6. What country do you live in? UK > > Regards, > Susan MacDougall > Project Officer > Education and Training in Indexing > Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch > > > > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS > Indexer/librarian > Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group > Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) > Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk > ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from relay19.mx.aol.com (relay19.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.65]) by > air15.mail.aol.com (v45.16) with SMTP; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 05:11:02 -0400 > Received: from grape.EASE.LSOFT.COM (grape.ease.lsoft.com [206.241.12.34]) > by relay19.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with ESMTP id FAA27372; > Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:10:33 -0400 (EDT) > Message-Id: <199807080910.FAA27372@relay19.mx.aol.com> > Rec ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:17:42 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: peer review? I wonder if anyone who has experience indexing highly technical engineering and computer science materials (graduate-level research-based textbooks!) would have some time this weekend to look over an index for me? I'm accustomed to task-oriented trade computer books, mostly marginally written to say as little as possible in as much space as possible ; ), and I'm very good at pulling out all the little pieces that frustrated programmers and system administrators will be hunting frantically for...but this is another world entirely, and although I used to *read* this stuff as a student, I could really use some feedback on my overall approach to indexing it. I expect to have something showable, if not complete, by sometime Saturday. It will not be horribly long. Please email me privately if you think you can help me out, and thanks very much in advance! Caroline ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:27:10 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Q on indexing set of manuals with Word7 Linda Sutherland wrote: > > > 2. Replace and supplement the default index entries as needed. > > What are the "default index entries"? * For files, the text of the TITLE tag or the first Hn tag. * For named anchors, the text enclosed in the ANCHOR tag. Of course, the defaults alone seldom yield a satisfactory index, but they're "free" and they make a resonable starting point. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: dlwitt@concentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing Kim Harris wrote: > > > > 1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? > > > > (a) "Back of book" / book indexing [x] > > (b) Serial / journal indexing [x ] > > (c) Document indexing / abstracting for databases [x ] > > (d) Internet / Web indexing [ ] > > (e) Other (please specify) > > > > 2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: > >Library School and on the job. > > (a) self taught?partly, but also with an editor > > > > [ No ] > > > > (b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? > > > > [ No ] > > > > (c) through a correspondence course? > >No > > [ Yes ] > > > > (d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? > >No > > 3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level > > courses offer sufficient indexing content? > > > > [ Don't know] > >I'm not sure, but I teach one, so I guess so. > > 4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / > > university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? > >I think it has to be graduate level, because so much material that needs indexing is at that level. > > > > (a) introductory [ none ] > > (b) some [ ] > > (c) substantial [x ] > > > > 5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing > > here. I think an academic course is more effective than a correspondencecourse, because the feedback is better, as long as it is taught by someone who is a professional indexer who is active in the field. I continue to believe it should be allied with library science/information management curriculum, as this is the best way to keep abreast of emerging information technology, yet still keep a connection to standards and theory > > > > > > 6. What country do you live in? UK > >United States > > Regards, > > Susan MacDougall > > Project Officer > > Education and Training in Indexing > > Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch > > > > > > > > > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS > > Indexer/librarian > > Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group > > Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) > > Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk > > ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > > Return-Path: > > Received: from relay19.mx.aol.com (relay19.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.65]) > by > > air15.mail.aol.com (v45.16) with SMTP; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 05:11:02 -0400 > > Received: from grape.EASE.LSOFT.COM (grape.ease.lsoft.com [206.241.12.34]) > > by relay19.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > > with ESMTP id FAA27372; > > Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:10:33 -0400 (EDT) > > Message-Id: <199807080910.FAA27372@relay19.mx.aol.com> > > Rec ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:43:08 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker John Sullivan wrote: > > ... if you're preparing Windows help files, indexing in Word is > pretty much your only option. The Windows help compiler is completely ignorant of Word's index entry fields. Some help authoring tools may convert index entry fields (for print) to "K" footnotes (for help files), but the locators (page number vs. topic ID) and index entry syntax differ significantly. I'd expect the results to be mixed, at best, no matter which direction the conversion went. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:42:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker I'm not sure what your point is. The majority of help conversion tools are Word-based, so Word's embedded index entries become the help key words. Unless you're prepared to create RTF files from scratch, Word is the only option. > -----Original Message----- > From: David M. Brown [SMTP:dmbrown@brown-inc.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 11:43 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker > > John Sullivan wrote: > > > > ... if you're preparing Windows help files, indexing in Word is > > pretty much your only option. > > The Windows help compiler is completely ignorant of Word's index entry > fields. Some help authoring tools may convert index entry fields (for > print) to "K" footnotes (for help files), but the locators (page number > vs. topic ID) and index entry syntax differ significantly. > > I'd expect the results to be mixed, at best, no matter which direction > the conversion went. > > --David > > ============================== > David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > http://www.brown-inc.com > ============================== > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:00:51 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Putting CINDEX or MACREX index into Word or FrameMaker John Sullivan wrote: > > I'm not sure what your point is. The majority of help conversion > tools are Word-based, so Word's embedded index entries become the > help key words. Unless you're prepared to create RTF files from > scratch, Word is the only option. My point is that the help compiler uses the content of "K" footnotes, formatted very specifically, to build a help index; Word uses the content of "xe" fields, formatted rather differently, to build a print index. Besides WexTech's Doc-To-Help, which help authoring tools convert Word "xe" fields "K" footnotes (or vice versa)? (As you pointed out, this doesn't address help authoring tools that are *not* Word-based. They'd have to create properly formatted "xe" fields and "K" footnotes from some third, proprietary format.) --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:00:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kay K. Schlembach" Subject: Re: physics question

I'm working on a physics textbook which references a person named Snyder who worked with Robert Oppenheimer. They predicted the existence of black holes in 1939. Does anyone know his first name? I have exhausted my references.
Thanks in advance !

Kay Schlembach
  ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:24:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Re: physics question - Reply Would this be Hartland Snyder? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:17:39 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: E: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: E: Original tag data was -> Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Which product is best? I know from experience that Cindex handles complex page references, such as chapter - page combined (3-4, 7-5) that kind of thing - very well - an important consideration in user or technical manuals that have this kind of pagination. I don't know about Macrex or Sky Index but it is certainly something to check. I also know, again from experience, that Cindex handles strange alphabetizing very well - scientific symbols at the beginning of words for example - another thing to check. Charles Anderson At 01:51 PM 7/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >If you were going to buy indexing software today, to index: >user manuals >technical manuals >non-fiction books in medicine, pharmaceuticals, and health, > >Which software would you buy? And why? > >CINDEX >MACREX >SKY Index > >Cost is a lower priority than ease-of-use, excellent support, >trouble-free operation. > >I've been reading and exploring the web sites of all three, and >watching the list for a while, but can't find specific info about >my needs. > >Thanks for all comments and ideas. > >Rivka Arieli > >"I remember typewriters..." > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:23:40 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: physics question - Reply Indeed yes. Hartland S. Snyder There is a black hole page at http://library.advanced.org/10148/long4.html that includes his full name. I found this doing a simple boolean AND search in Yahoo using Snyder and Oppenheimer as search terms. I have found the WEB to be invaluable in providing answers to such questions. Is this a great NET or what? Pauline Sholtys wrote: > > Would this be Hartland Snyder? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:54:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: French names (thanks) In-Reply-To: <199807230400.XAA27203@mixcom.mixcom.com> Thanks to all who offered suggestions. Actually, my question (which I realize was a bit vague) was not so much about whether I should or shouldn't separate the particle but about how odd it looked with a military title instead of a first name. Because this is the name of an obscure 18th-cent. Frenchman (i.e., definitely not Anglicized), I'll probably have to leave it Affry, Colonel d' but query it nonetheless. Come to think of it, it's a good thing that "Colonel" is there! It could've been worse: Affry, M. d' BTW, this is my second book in a row about a bloody massacre. This one is about the storming of the Tuileries and subsequent massacre of the palace guards, plus aristocrats and priests--with visuals, because it's an art history book. The book before this was about the Nazi massacre at Oradour, France. Thank goodness my next project is a book on Herman Melville (no, Craig, I haven't quite finished this one yet, but it'll be done tomorrow). As far as I know, Melville never butchered anybody. :-) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:53:44 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J R V Prescott Subject: Re: Education and training for indexing In-Reply-To: <199807231318.XAA28294@myriad.its.unimelb.edu.au> >)Reply from Dorothy Prescott >> >> Dear Indexers worldwide, >> >> I would very much appreciate your opinions on education and training for >> indexing by answering the questions below. I will summarise responses and >> forward to the list. Results will form part of research into education and >> training in indexing by the Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region >> Branch. Please contact me if you want more information about the purpose >> of the project. Results will be summarised statistically and individual >> responses will remain confidential. >> >> 1. What sort of indexing are you engaged in? >> >> (a) "Back of book" / book indexing [x] >> (b) Serial / journal indexing [ ] >> (c) Document indexing / abstracting for databases [ ] >> (d) Internet / Web indexing [ ] >> (e) Other (please specify )[Creating databases and indexing them] >> >> 2. Where did you obtain your indexing skills? Was it: >> >> (a) self taught? Self taught >> >> [ Yes ] >> >> (b) part of a college / university / tertiary level program/course? >> >> [ No ] >> >> (c) through a correspondence course? >> >> [ No ] >> >> (d) through a locally offered short course or short courses? [ No] >> >> 3. Do you consider that current college / university / tertiary level >> courses offer sufficient indexing content? >> >> [ Don't know] >> >> 4. At what level of skills do you consider college / tertiary level / >> university programs / courses provide education and training for indexing? >> >> >> (a) introductory [ ] >> (b) some [ x ] >> (c) substantial [ ] >> >> 5. Please make any other comments about education / training for indexing >> here. There isn't sufficient known about this. Hence I suppose your questionnaire survey. We need this study before any very meaningful comments can be made about education or training. What I have established from my contacts with publishers is that many of their staff regard indexing as a mechanical exercise requiring neither skill nor subject expertise and hence do not understand the pressure/stress they create by unreasonable demands for delivery. My library training was invaluable. Many of the skills are learnt in librarianship, hence I suppose the large number of librarians in Indexer Societies. Also found the early writing s that I used, eg Margaret Anderson etc and the early Standards were very useful. >> >> 6. What country do you live in? Australia but acquired my expertise >>in Nigeria >> >> Regards, >> Susan MacDougall >> Project Officer >> Education and Training in Indexing >> Australian Society of Indexers ACT Region Branch >> >> >> >> >> """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" >> Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS >> Indexer/librarian >> Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group >> Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) >> Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk >> ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au >> """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" >> >> >> ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >> Return-Path: >> Received: from relay19.mx.aol.com (relay19.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.65]) >by >> air15.mail.aol.com (v45.16) with SMTP; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 05:11:02 -0400 >> Received: from grape.EASE.LSOFT.COM (grape.ease.lsoft.com [206.241.12.34]) >> by relay19.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) >> with ESMTP id FAA27372; >> Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:10:33 -0400 (EDT) >> Message-Id: <199807080910.FAA27372@relay19.mx.aol.com> >> Rec JRV and DF Prescott East Brighton Victoria 3187 AUSTRALIA Phone 61 3 9592 5156 Fax 61 3 9593 1624 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:19:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Text+Index on WWW * I seem to be having bad luck with this topic, which I've posted twice. I don't know if it has even got through to the INDEX-L list. If there HAVE been any answers, I think they are getting blotted out by other email traffic (too much in my mailbox). Here goes again: * 1) an index has been created to a text (back issues of a periodical); 2) this text, consisting of several hundred thousand words, has been put on the Web, and is searchable but only in a very rudimentary way; 3) we now want to put the index on the Web, with hyperlinks to the text (clicking on a reference should go to the corresponding section of the text.) How to do this (HTML is probably one way)? Has it been done? Are there any interesting model indexes online to look at? Are there any experts out there who can communicate with me about this either through the list or privately? * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:19:13 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Which product is best? In a message dated 98-07-22 16:54:47 EDT, you write: << Cost is a lower priority than ease-of-use, excellent support, trouble-free operation. >> I have always found CINDEX tech support to be excellent. I use CINDEX for DOS, so might need a bit more support than users of the Windows version, but have not needed support often. I did get into a tricky job of moving 50 indexes of individual years of a botany journal from WordPerfect into Cindex and it worked very well. When your files are imported, CINDEX indicates exactly which lines have mistakes, so you can go back to the original and correct the problem. With 14,000 entries, that was a blessing! I then had to get CINDEX to put the italics in using Find-and-Replace type commands, rather than coding 14,000 entries individually. (In the interests of preserving what little sanity I have left.) Maria helped me write the commands and I was delighted with the results. I can recommend CINDEX tech support with no reservations. Moot point at this date, but I like the DOS version, too. Call me old fashioned :-) Rivka Arieli ended her post with: "I remember typewriters..." Erin (Micki) Taylor "I remember DOS..." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:52:02 +0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Re: Text+Index on WWW In-Reply-To: <98Jul24.002116-0400_edt.15377-102622+5349@email.unc.edu> I'm also very interested in hearing answers to this question. At UNC we're interested in exploring ways to improve access to our digitized texts. ________________________________________________________________________ Roberta Engleman Rare Book Collection Wilson Library CB# 3936 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (919) 962-1143 On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Peter Rooney wrote: > * > I seem to be having bad luck with this topic, which I've posted twice. > I don't know if it has even got through to the INDEX-L list. If there > HAVE been any answers, I think they are getting blotted out by other > email traffic (too much in my mailbox). Here goes again: > * > 1) an index has been created to a text (back issues of a periodical); > 2) this text, consisting of several hundred thousand words, has been > put on the Web, and is searchable but only in a very rudimentary way; > 3) we now want to put the index on the Web, with hyperlinks to the text > (clicking on a reference should go to the corresponding section of the > text.) > How to do this (HTML is probably one way)? Has it been done? Are > there any interesting model indexes online to look at? Are there any > experts out there who can communicate with me about this either through > the list or privately? > * > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: French names (thanks) In-Reply-To: <199807232322.TAA19618@mail3.bellsouth.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Carol Roberts > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 12:54 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: French names (thanks) > > > BTW, this is my second book in a row about a bloody massacre. This one is > about the storming of the Tuileries and subsequent massacre of the palace > guards, plus aristocrats and priests--with visuals, because it's an art > history book. The book before this was about the Nazi massacre at Oradour, > France. Thank goodness my next project is a book on Herman Melville (no, > Craig, I haven't quite finished this one yet, but it'll be done tomorrow). > As far as I know, Melville never butchered anybody. :-) > > Cheers, > > > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing > Aren't you forgetting about that poor whale...? :) Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:24:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: CINDEX Win vs. DOS In-Reply-To: <199807240721.DAA24296@mail2.bellsouth.net> Be aware that CINDEX -- which I have used with profound satisfaction since it first appeared -- is rather different between the DOS and Windows versions. Not many people are working in DOS apps any more, including me, but the DOS version does have one thing the Windows version doesn't: Specific drivers (or whatever) to translate Cindex indexes into text files for specific word processing applications. The Windows version is very fast, and it uses all the Windows-type keystroke conventions, but the output for a file is pretty much only RTF -- which I loathe. Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of EMickiT@AOL.COM > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 2:19 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Which product is best? > > > In a message dated 98-07-22 16:54:47 EDT, you write: > > << Cost is a lower priority than ease-of-use, excellent support, > trouble-free operation. >> > > I have always found CINDEX tech support to be excellent. I use > CINDEX for > DOS, so might need a bit more support than users of the Windows > version, but > have not needed support often. I did get into a tricky job of moving 50 > indexes of individual years of a botany journal from WordPerfect > into Cindex > and it worked very well. When your files are imported, CINDEX indicates > exactly which lines have mistakes, so you can go back to the original and > correct the problem. With 14,000 entries, that was a blessing! > > I then had to get CINDEX to put the italics in using Find-and-Replace type > commands, rather than coding 14,000 entries individually. (In > the interests > of preserving what little sanity I have left.) Maria helped me write the > commands and I was delighted with the results. > > I can recommend CINDEX tech support with no reservations. > > Moot point at this date, but I like the DOS version, too. Call me old > fashioned :-) > > Rivka Arieli ended her post with: > > "I remember typewriters..." > > Erin (Micki) Taylor > > "I remember DOS..." > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:35:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kay K. Schlembach" Subject: Re: Snyder, hartland S. Many thanks to Janet, Pauline and Nicholas for helping me put a first name with Mr. Snyder's last name. The web site was particularly helpful. Kay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:42:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Retro CINDEX Micki Taylor rote: Waa'l, Ol' Timer, ah shore do ay-pre-shee-ate yur idee "bout CINDEX for DOS! Ah bot the Windows critter 'way back last Dee-sembuh, but ah hain't never used it none. Fact is, ah hain't never even loaded it yet!! Bin so bizzy roundin' up strays ah hain't had no time tuh fool 'roun with it! Ah hear the new guy makes ropin' an' brandin' real fast. Mebbe so. Don' know if ah kin deal with all them new "feechurs"! Gettin' harder fur this ol' dog to step up to a new fahr plug! That DOS critter, hit works nice 'n easy, an' hit's real comfittabbul. Hain't too fancy, but hit gits the job done! If hit hain't broke... Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:40:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: How do I turn off the "Digest" option on this list? I'm sorry to post this to the list, but I can't figure out from the "info refcard" how to turn off my digest option. I want to go back to receiving posted messages as they are posted, instead of an entire day's worth of messages once per day. If someone could e-mail me directly (since I won't see today's posted messages until tomorrow!) I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, and again, sorry to bother everyone with this. Anne -------------------------------------------- Anne B. Day Editorial Production Manager ph: (215) 731-2227 Professional Jeweler magazine fax: (215) 545-9629 Bond Communications aday@professionaljeweler.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:07:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Cambodian cookbook index--question Hi everyone, I am indexing a cookbook on Cambodian cooking. The press asked that I put in the Cambodian names after the English names in the subheads, but that makes the index look really cluttered (because ALL of the recipes have a Cambodian name and an English name--in some cookbooks you just have a few recipes with foreign names so this practice might work in those cases). Now I am proposing that I take the translations out in the subheads. I don't see that English speakers are going to care much about the Cambodian names. (The Cambodian recipe names are also posted as main headings, followed by the English translations.) BUT another problem is that the Cambodian recipe names tend to all begin with similar words and this happens in clusters: Bai B'baw Cha Chrourk K'tieu Mouan Nom Nom Banchok Nyuom Saik Saiko S'ngao Somlah Somlah Machou Trey There are sometimes up to 8 main headings beginning with the same word. (I sense that a few of these terms refer to cooking methods and not foods.) If anyone knows anything about the Cambodian language (I don't), please tell me if I can use any of these terms as main headings with the rest of the recipe name in subs. I probably will end up just leaving the Cambodian recipe names as they are as main headings and not try to break them down into subs, but it bothers me to have so many entries beginning with the same word. All suggestions welcome. Thanks. ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:25:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS I use both Cindex for DOS and Cindex for Windows. My boss bought the Windows version as soon as it came out. For me it isn't better than the DOS version and I haven't upgraded my personal copy. I do my freelance work in the DOS version and I am happy as a clam. I did notice two things that may make a difference to some people: Cindex for DOS does not involve a lot of mouse work and may be more satisfactory for carpel tunnel sufferers. The spell check and abbreviations are better in Cindex for Windows. The versions are extremely different and both are excellent. The support for both versions has been prompt and reliable. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:28:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS If someone wants a copy of Cindex for DOS rather than Windows, I have one for sale at a discounted price. Someone who has decided not to pursue indexing asked me to sell hers for her. Let me know (private e-mail, NOT to the list, please) if you are interested. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN BECohen653@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:31:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS On 7/24/98 7:24 Michael K. Smith wrote (in part): >Be aware that CINDEX -- which I have used with profound satisfaction since >it first appeared -- is rather different between the DOS and Windows >versions. Not many people are working in DOS apps any more, including me, >but the DOS version does have one thing the Windows version doesn't: >Specific drivers (or whatever) to translate Cindex indexes into text files >for specific word processing applications. The Windows version is very fast, >and it uses all the Windows-type keystroke conventions, but the output for a >file is pretty much only RTF -- which I loathe. I echo the feelings about RTF. I realize it would be nearly impossible to provide translators for all possible word processing applications, but recent experience tells me that RTF is also a moving target. The most recent version of Cindex for the Mac incorporates the latest changes to RTF and I now find that I cannot translate the RTF index satisfactorily to WordPerfect for the Mac. (Technically, the translation is done by an interim application called MacLinkPlus, of which I have the latest version.) For some reason, the RTF file of the index contains coding to specify the font followed by another specification for symbol font. My translator takes this quite literally and I get a file in symbol font. That, coupled with some other anomalies, has caused me to abandon using RTF unless I am confident that my client is able to translate it satisfactorily. This is just a whinge. I have no suggestions to offer. If a Unicode set is ever agreed on, that might be an improvement even though it will presumably double the size of files translated to it. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:09:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Text+Index on WWW At 11:19 PM 7/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >* >I seem to be having bad luck with this topic, which I've posted twice. >I don't know if it has even got through to the INDEX-L list. If there >HAVE been any answers, I think they are getting blotted out by other >email traffic (too much in my mailbox). Here goes again: >* [...] My message to you was returned stating that you're email box was full. Anne Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:11:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS In-Reply-To: <199807241337.GAA24505@decibel.electriciti.com> Support by Cindex is superior to ANY software i deal with. BUT. The DOS version usta allow a straight text file save for .txt Me and my clients very much miss this. Cindex staff guided me in inserting entry level markers (

,

, and so on) but, it was so much easier with a straight-text capacity. Does the Windows version allow a save in Quark XPress (xtg) format? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:31:21 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Text+Index on WWW Mr. Rooney-- > > How now to link the index to the text? > HTML is probably one way to do it, but not the only way. Are there any > texts+indexes already on the Web that can be read and queried? If > anybody out there has actually created such a thing, I'd like to hear > from you. I have tried four times to reply to your original message. Please contact me directly (mailto:dmbrown@brown-inc.com, 503-292-1710). We're developing a tool that may help you. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:35:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS In-Reply-To: <199807241226.IAA20095@camel23.mindspring.com> At 07:24 AM 7/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Be aware that CINDEX -- which I have used with profound satisfaction since >it first appeared -- is rather different between the DOS and Windows >versions. Not many people are working in DOS apps any more, including me, >but the DOS version does have one thing the Windows version doesn't: The DOS version has yet another feature that the Windows version does not: In DOS you can assign an executable command to a PF key. For instance, I have a recurring need for this command: FIND/FIELD=P/PATTERN !![0-9][0-9][0-9][0-9][0-9][0-9]$ In DOS Cindex I can assign this to a PF key and save it from session to session. In Windows Cindex, all I can assign to a PF key is a character string to be inserted on a data line. If you are not a heavy user of complex patterns, you may not notice the lack of this feature. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:41:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Text+Index on WWW At 07:31 AM 7/24/1998 -0700, David M. Brown wrote: >Mr. Rooney-- >> >> How now to link the index to the text? >> HTML is probably one way to do it, but not the only way. Are there any >> texts+indexes already on the Web that can be read and queried? If >> anybody out there has actually created such a thing, I'd like to hear >> from you. > >I have tried four times to reply to your original message. > >Please contact me directly (mailto:dmbrown@brown-inc.com, 503-292-1710). >We're developing a tool that may help you. > >--David > > ============================== > David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > http://www.brown-inc.com > ============================== David, I'm leaving the above message intact, because I believe at least some of your messages aren't making the list. I seem to be getting them in my personal mailbox, but I don't see them in the list mailbox for whatever reason. Maybe others are seeing them on Index-L? Anyway, this one sounded important, so I'm resending to the list. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:04:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS >Support by Cindex is superior to ANY software i deal with. > >BUT. The DOS version usta allow a straight text file save for .txt > >Me and my clients very much miss this. Cindex staff guided me in inserting >entry level markers (

,

, and so on) but, it was so much easier with >a straight-text capacity. > >Does the Windows version allow a save in Quark XPress (xtg) format? >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > Cindex for DOS and Windows both have Xpress tags output for Quark. You can output straight text too. You don't need to put in the level markers. Dave ReamLeverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 440-838-1203 E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:04:59 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Text+Index on WWW Sonsie wrote: > > David, ... I believe at > least some of your messages aren't making the list. Anyway, this > one sounded important, so I'm resending to the list. > I appreciate your consideration. I've actually been sending that to Mr. Rooney directly (off-list). I was afraid my message might sound too much like a sales pitch to post it to the list. As Mr. Rooney noted in a message earlier today, his mail has been getting bounced by his mail server. I can't imagine why you've been getting them, instead--my apologies for the inconvenience! --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:06:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS In-Reply-To: <199807241332.JAA06189@camel10.mindspring.com> I haven't had any problems taking Cindex's RTF over to the Mac. You probably need to get off of MacLinkPlus and use the Mac's inherent ability to read PC disks that it gained with later system versions. If you can update your mac's operating system, I would suggest it - it makes things incredibly transparent. I don't run any translators on the RTF file. I just put the disk in, and copy the file over, and then open it. Works perfectly and even keeps the special characters correctly. RTF has been a moving target, but I have not had any problems with it and word processors at all. The only problems I saw were with PageMaker when the import filters were not up to date. Since Adobe posts updated filters on its web site to download, that is no longer a problem. I certainly would not balk at Cindex for Windows because of RTF. RTF is such a standard now that it is nearly all I hand off to my clients. It usually imports beautifully into any word processor or page layout program. I haven't had any problems with it, and have taken files back and forth between Word 6 and Word 97 on the PC, and Word 6 on the Mac. I haven't tried taking it as far back as Word 5.1 on the Mac, but I think I would do that using a Save As in Word instead of just rtf. Once you open an RTF file in your word processor, you can save it as nearly anything you want. So I have not found RTF a limitation. Cindex also saves in TXT format, as well as Quarkxpress, and several tab delimited formats. One of the options in the tab delimited format allows you to export records out ready for use in a database or excel spreadsheet, which is incredibly useful. It wasn't there in the first Windows version, but we asked for it, and we got it. That is service! Jan Wright At 08:31 AM 7/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >On 7/24/98 7:24 Michael K. Smith wrote (in part): > >>Be aware that CINDEX -- which I have used with profound satisfaction since >>it first appeared -- is rather different between the DOS and Windows >>versions. Not many people are working in DOS apps any more, including me, >>but the DOS version does have one thing the Windows version doesn't: >>Specific drivers (or whatever) to translate Cindex indexes into text files >>for specific word processing applications. The Windows version is very fast, >>and it uses all the Windows-type keystroke conventions, but the output for a >>file is pretty much only RTF -- which I loathe. > >I echo the feelings about RTF. I realize it would be nearly impossible >to provide translators for all possible word processing applications, but >recent experience tells me that RTF is also a moving target. The most >recent version of Cindex for the Mac incorporates the latest changes to >RTF and I now find that I cannot translate the RTF index satisfactorily >to WordPerfect for the Mac. (Technically, the translation is done by an >interim application called MacLinkPlus, of which I have the latest >version.) For some reason, the RTF file of the index contains coding to >specify the font followed by another specification for symbol font. My >translator takes this quite literally and I get a file in symbol font. >That, coupled with some other anomalies, has caused me to abandon using >RTF unless I am confident that my client is able to translate it >satisfactorily. > >This is just a whinge. I have no suggestions to offer. If a Unicode set >is ever agreed on, that might be an improvement even though it will >presumably double the size of files translated to it. > >Craig Brown > >========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword >========================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:42:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: Thanks for input on indexing software Thank you tremendously everyone, for your advice, comments, arguments, jokes, amusing chatter, etc., on software for indexing. I said in my original request that I would summarize by today for the list, but OOOoooooffff, I'm not sure I'm able. Realizing that most of you will have read all of the contributions anyway, I'm going to take my time on this. So I'll read and think about what you've all written, and see if I have anything useful to contribute next week. Thanks again. What a wonderful, helpful, experienced and kind group of people you are. As delight to meet you. Rivka Arieli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: NAMES of diacritical marks, please NAMES of diacritical marks, please
Well, Chicago has examples, but does not seem to have the NAMES of diacritical marks.  Can anyone help?   Is there a website anywhere with more of this information?   

a dot under a T
a dot under an H  
a small circle above the  A   (Danish)  
an upper left to lower right accent mark above an E  
an upper right to lower left accent mark above the e
        (which is which?)
an a-and-e combined
an o with a slash through it  (Danish)
a Greek alpha-type letter (lowercase)
a Greek beta-type letter (vs a double German s)        
               
This index goes out by email this afternoon - any help would definitely be appreciated.

Martha
Back Words Indexing
========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:47:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: Help with NAMES of diacritical marks (tag-less this time) [Sheesh! Here's are repeat of my question without the tags. ;-) ] Well, Chicago has examples, but does not seem to have the NAMES of diacritical marks.  Can anyone help? Is there a website anywhere with more of this information? What does one call a small circle above the A an upper left to lower right accent mark above an E an upper right to lower left accent mark above the e (which is which?) an a-and-e combined an o with a slash through it a Greek alpha-type letter (lowercase) a Greek beta-type letter (vs a double German s) This index goes out by email tomorrow morning - any help would definitely be worth chocolate. Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:15:42 +0600 Reply-To: Roberta Engleman Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Re: Help with NAMES of diacritical marks (tag-less this time) In-Reply-To: <98Jul24.134833-0400_edt.9233-90498+59@email.unc.edu> Here's an URL that will help you, maybe even in time for tomorrow's mail: http://www.portal.ca/%7Etiro/di_intro.html It's called "Overview of European Diacritics," by John Hudson. At the bottom of the web page, under "Guide to Diacritics, by Form" click on either "Special Characters" or "Accents." ________________________________________________________________________ Roberta Engleman Rare Book Collection Wilson Library CB# 3936 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (919) 962-1143 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS In-Reply-To: <199807241329.JAA11273@camel10.mindspring.com> How much of a discounted price? Including all the manuals, right? Registration transferable? Cheers, Deborah At 09:28 AM 24-07-98 EDT, you wrote: >If someone wants a copy of Cindex for DOS rather than Windows, I have one for >sale at a discounted price. Someone who has decided not to pursue indexing >asked me to sell hers for her. Let me know (private e-mail, NOT to the list, >please) if you are interested. > >Barbara E. Cohen >Indianapolis, IN > >BECohen653@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:20:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS Sorry! I did NOT intend that to go to the list. I accidentally sent it before pasting in Barbara's address. It happened at the exact moment that MindSpring's mail server went back up. Mea culpa, Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:28:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: Re: Help with NAMES of diacritical marks (tag-less this time) To the best of my memory, and after checking a Cassell's French dictionary and the Oxford Concise and Webster (very large) the following may help. BWI wrote: > a small circle above the A > forget > an upper left to lower right accent mark above an E grave [grahv] h is pronounced EH > an upper right to lower left accent mark above the e > (which is which?) aigu [ay goo] i is pronounced AY > > > > an a-and-e combined ligature or diphthong > an o with a slash through it can't remember > > > > a Greek alpha-type letter (lowercase) alpha > > > > a Greek beta-type letter (vs a double German s) > beta > Best of luck Rivka Arieli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:34:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Help with NAMES of diacritical marks [response] I got this from Pamela Kane's excellent book, "The Data Recovery Bible", plus a guess or two. I suspect a couple of her entries are not really correct [as opposed to what?]. My additions to your note are in < >. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Help with NAMES of diacritical marks (tag-less this time) Date: 24-Jul-98 at 10:48 From: "Indexer's Discussion Group", INTERNET:INDEX-LINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Well, Chicago has examples, but does not seem to have the NAMES of diacritical marks.  Can anyone help? Is there a website anywhere with more of this information? What does one call a small circle above the A an upper left to lower right accent mark above an E an upper right to lower left accent mark above the e an a-and-e combined an o with a slash through it a Greek alpha-type letter (lowercase) a Greek beta-type letter (vs a double German s) This index goes out by email tomorrow morning - any help would definitely be worth chocolate. Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:40:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Cambodian cookbook index--question Sorry, can't help with Cambodian. Thai, Lao yes, but not Cambodian. Try a= Cambodian dictionary though - as far as I know Cambodian is not an inflected language, so finding the meanings of the words you list should = be relatively easy. Good luck, = Sue Lightfoot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS Craig Brown wrote, re CINDEX for Mac: "I realize it would be nearly impossible to provide translators for all possible word processing applications, but= recent experience tells me that RTF is also a moving target. The most recent version of Cindex for the Mac incorporates the latest changes to RTF and I now find that I cannot translate the RTF index satisfactorily to WordPerfect for the Mac. (Technically, the translation is done by an interim application called MacLinkPlus, of which I have the latest version.) For some reason, the RTF file of the index contains coding to specify the font followed by another specification for symbol font. My translator takes this quite literally and I get a file in symbol font. That, coupled with some other anomalies, has caused me to abandon using RTF unless I am confident that my client is able to translate it satisfactorily." ---- Craig I don't know whether this is relevant, but there are CINDEX for Mac updat= es 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 available for downloading from their website. This fixes some of the problems in CINDEX 1.1. Best wishes, Sue Lightfoot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:40:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Help with NAMES of diacritical marks (tag-less this time) Message text written by "Indexer's Discussion Group" "What does one call a small circle above the A: SWEDISH BOLL an upper left to lower right accent mark above an E: GRAVE ACCENT= an upper right to lower left accent mark above the e (which is which?) : ( If you mean lower left to= upper right) ACUTE ACCENT an a-and-e combined: LIGATURE an o with a slash through it: SCANDINAVIAN BARRED 'O' a Greek alpha-type letter (lowercase): ALPHA a Greek beta-type letter (vs a double German s)" : BETA (German double ss is esszet) Hope this helps. Sue Lightfoot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:46:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Targets moving akimbo :) Just a water-cooler-break message: I had to laugh when I opened up the TIME magazine for 7/27 and saw in the "Letters" section (regarding a previous article on the bird-dinosaur link): "How about those chunky chicken dinosaurs crashing about with feathered arms akimbo until ... they became airborne!" (remembering our earlier discussion on use of "akimbo" -- and for some reason I kept seeing these chicken-dinosaurs on Rollerblades [tm]...) Speaking of word usage, twice today I've seen RTF file format referred to as a "moving target." Even though English is my native language, I'm having a hard time figuring out this phrase. Does it refer to something that's hard to kill off, mess with, eradicate, etc.? Or am I missing some finer shade of meaning? -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:46:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Which product is best? Old-fashioned, Indeed! Use what works best. DOS programs are usually faster and easier to troubleshoot. The good ones -- NeoPaint, for example -- make their OWN windows as necessary. I'm currently running MS-DOS 6.22, Win 3.11, Win NT 4.0, and a Macintosh with OS 7.1. Thinking of adding Linux as well. But I draw the line at 8" floppy discs. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:18:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS In-Reply-To: <199807241332.JAA10993@mail3.bellsouth.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Craig Brown > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 8:31 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: CINDEX Win vs. DOS > > > On 7/24/98 7:24 Michael K. Smith wrote (in part): [snip...] > The Windows version [of Cindex] is very fast, and it uses all the Windows-type keystroke conventions, but the output for a file is pretty much only RTF -- which I loathe. >> I echo the feelings about RTF. I realize it would be nearly impossible >> to provide translators for all possible word processing applications, but [snip...] > Craig Brown Actually, that isn't really a problem. The author of a high-end genealogy database program, in the continuing development of which I have been involved for several years [...and how's that for contorted syntax?], has gotten around the problem of many, many word processing programs by purchasing a set of drivers from a third party -- just as he had had purchased the install module from someone else. It wasn't *that* expensive and it was much cheaper than his time spent in writing all those fiddly little things would have been. And he sells the program for a good deal less than Cindex costs, so I think Indexing Research Inc. could probably afford it.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:10:50 -0700 Reply-To: jlee@eskimo.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Which product is best? I chose SKY index because of Nancy Mulvany's review of the program and I'm really glad I did! It has been exceptionally easy to learn and seems to handle everything I need it to do very well. I'm in the learning curve with both indexing and programs so I've really appreciated having a program that was intuitive rather than having to look functions up in a book. As for support, Kamm has done a marvelous job of being responsive to my questions. I don't believe you'll get better support than with SKY. What has really thrilled me to no end, though, is the ability to use NaturallySpeaking within SKY. Now as I make the first pass, I'm actually able to "talk" to SKY and have the entries done by voice rather than having to type everything and wonder if I hit a wrong key, got the right page number, etc. It's been a really interesting process learning indexing, learning SKY, and learning/training NaturallySpeaking but I'm sure I will be more productive in the long run and that'$ where it's at! Jeri Lee Jeri Lee rivka wrote: > If you were going to buy indexing software today, to index: > user manuals > technical manuals > non-fiction books in medicine, pharmaceuticals, and health, > > Which software would you buy? And why? > > CINDEX > MACREX > SKY Index > > Cost is a lower priority than ease-of-use, excellent support, > trouble-free operation. > > I've been reading and exploring the web sites of all three, and > watching the list for a while, but can't find specific info about > my needs. > > Thanks for all comments and ideas. > > Rivka Arieli > > "I remember typewriters..." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:10:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beverly Schane Subject: Re: What I Like About Indexing Thanks everybody for your input on what you like about indexing. It was interesting reading all your comments and noting the similarities. It helped me in making a decision about indexing as a career for myself. I'm gonna go for it. Thanks, again. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:33:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Diacritical Marks: Help is on the Way CORRECTION: Two of Ms. King's list entries seem incorrect: what it called "degree" should be "ring", and "crossbar" is more likely "slash". I found a few websites which are marginally helpful; further fussing and clicking at each site will no doubt reveal more. Some give keycodes for generating characters. http://nmnhwww.si.edu/ing/codes.html http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/LocalFile/char.html http://members.aol.com/resourceet/RET1/page2.html [hold your breath...] http:metaclick.go2net.com/bin/ ct.api-l=3100144search2_18_5/R=4-31/Q=diacritical% 20marks?http://weber.u.washington.edu/~briantp/ Toolbook/ctrl-2.html [...looks nice. Maybe one can go directly to washington.edu for this?] http://www.insa-lyon.fr/People/AEDI/glickind/car.html http://www.w3.org/TR/P-math/chapter6.html#sec6.2.5 [This seems to be a whole damn book available!] Since I cannot cut-and-paste URLs, all typos are my own. Have fun, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:45:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Ignore this post

Please bear with me. I've had problems posting and I need to see if it's been corrected. Thank you.

Toni Clark Williams
The Procyon Group
Documentation Department

========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:50:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Ignore this post Please guys. One more time then I'm gone. Thanks. Toni Clark Williams The Procyon Group Documentation Department ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:02:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Ooops! And Shakespeare on DOS Hey, guys - Sorry about sending my off-the-wall posting re Retro CINDEX to the entire list. Obviously need a safety catch on the "SEND" button! I meant to send it to Micki Taylor (we seem to belong to that happy few who really enjoy using DOS! In fact, Shakespeare had this to say about DOS (Yes, Virginia, it really does (dos) go back to Elizabethan times): "From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remembered; We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he today that writes DOS commands with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so corrupt by Windows That DOS shall gentle his condition; And geeks in Redmond, now a-wallow in Win98 Shall think themselves accursed they know not DOS commands, And hold their geekhood cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us to master DOS 6.22. . - - - King Henry V, release 4.3 BTW, Henry V also has the great line: "Thou damned and luxurious mountain goat." Haven't found a posting for it yet... Remember, though, I am a Curmudgeon, not an Old Goat (except to my children and a few select friends). Baaah! DOS shall rise again! Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:03 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Cambodian cookbook index--question Cynthia: I can't help much with this (not knowing the Cambodian language, either) except that I can confirm your impression that you are dealing with a mixture of foods and cooking methods. For instance, Trey (or Trei or Drey) is certainly Fish, and Mouan seems likely to be Moan (Chicken), and Nom (or Num) is Biscuit or Cookie or Cake, but Cha (or Chha) is a Sauteed or Stir-fried dish, and Somlah (or Samlor or Samlaa) is a wet dish (soup or stew). I get this information from various Southeast Asian cookbooks and food dictionaries which I have. For us amateurs, even consulting a Cambodian (or Kampuchean or Khmer) dictionary would not be easy, because there is not a generally-used standard romanisation of the alphabet. I have forwarded your query to a Cambodian expert, but I do not expect a reply before next week. Alan Walker ========== Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >I am indexing a cookbook on Cambodian cooking. ... another problem is that the Cambodian recipe names tend to all begin >with similar words and this happens in clusters: > >Bai >B'baw >Cha >Chrourk >K'tieu >Mouan >Nom >Nom Banchok >Nyuom >Saik >Saiko >S'ngao >Somlah >Somlah Machou >Trey > >There are sometimes up to 8 main headings beginning with the same word. (I >sense that a few of these terms refer to cooking methods and not foods.) > >If anyone knows anything about the Cambodian language (I don't), please tell >me if I can use any of these terms as main headings with the rest of the >recipe name in subs. I probably will end up just leaving the Cambodian >recipe names as they are as main headings and not try to break them down >into subs, but it bothers me to have so many entries beginning with the same >word. > >All suggestions welcome. > >***************************************** > > -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:39:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: Diacritical, Names of - THANKS! Rivka Arieli, Roberta Engleman, Dafydd Llwyd Talcott, Sue Lightfoot - you are lifesavers, every one. I didn't know there would be so many ways of labeling these diacriticals - that takes the pressure off me, for sure. And what a useful set of sites!! I'm sure others are busy bookmarking those for future use. Thanks so much - Martha BWI ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:34:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: First and Second Kingdoms ? Two last, final (I think) questions on this index: What are First Kingdoms and Fourth Kingdoms? There seem to be four of them and they are not in any of the 12-15 indexes I've consulted. Are they Apochrypha, or Pseudepigrapha, or Early Christian, or Second Temple texts or Rabbinic texts or another way of saying First Kings and Fourth Kings in the (Catholic) Old Testament/Hebrew Bible? How about Third and Fourth Maccabees? Only one source I have shows 3rd and 4th Maccabees following right on 1st and 2nd in the Apochrypha. Is that right? Thank you, thank you! Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: Text+Index on WWW I wrote: > >I seem to be having bad luck with this topic, which I've posted twice. >[I think that] answers ... are getting blotted out ... Am I embarrassed! My mailbox WAS full! I am rapidly weeding it out. * (By the way, to help in this weeding, I'm getting and printing the archives of INDEX-L these days, rather than opening up and reading each message. It's much easier to scan a printed text. I wonder if there is any email software that can give this same effect? there should be). * (By the way again, I think there is an error in the FAQ of INDEX-L, treating of archives. It says you should e.g. "GET LOG9703A". This doesn't work. It should read: "GET INDEX-L LOG9703A". Note that it's also possible to batch the commands, like this: GET INDEX-L LOG9807A GET INDEX-L LOG9807B etc.) Now, I would like to profusely thank each and every respondent for your informative and helpful replies. I will get back to you all soon. * ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 04:13:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Cambodian cookbook index--question I am tremendously impressed with Alan Walker's knowledge of Southeast Asi= an cookery terms, and the fact that although he doesn't know Cambodian, he does know a Cambodian expert whom he can consult. Alan, perhaps you (or someone else) can help me with indexing the name of= Pol Pot. I can't find the answer either in Wellisch's Indexing from A to = Z or the Chicago Manual of Style, both of which are very good on non-Wester= n names. I'm inclined just to put Pol Pot, without inversion, but I don't know how such names are formed and I've never seen the name except in ful= l. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:07:03 +1000 Reply-To: Diagonal@onaustralia.com.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: How to put a text and its index on Web? The best places I know to look for samples of web indexes are the list on the ASI site (www.asindexing.org) and the AusSI web prize winners and entrants on the AusSI site (www.zeta.org.au/~aussi). The two book indexes that come to mind are Linda Sloan's and Linda Fetter's (to an online Policy and Procedure Manual). Don't know any way except using HTML and adding a whole lot of bookmarks to the book, and then linking to them. Glenda. > Problem is to put a text of several hundred thousand words (and perhaps > graphics) onto the Web; then put a conventional-style index to that > text as another page on the Web; then make the index dynamic (you click > on a page reference, it takes you to the indicated page of text). The > text is already on the Web; and the index already exists in print form, > and as a wordprocessing file. How now to link the index to the text? > HTML is probably one way to do it, but not the only way. Are there any > texts+indexes already on the Web that can be read and queried? If > anybody out there has actually created such a thing, I'd like to hear > from you. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 05:50:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Cambodian cookbook index--question Thank you to everyone who answered my query on the Cambodian cookbook issues. I did get permission to remove the translated portions from the subheads, and the Cambodian recipe titles are going to have to go in exactly as they are in the text, even though it would be better to place them in a more formal index format. ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:21:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: First and Second Kingdoms ? The Dictionary of Bible and Religion (Abingdon Press) lists I and II Maccabees as apocryphal; and 2 other books of Maccabees (not specifically identified by number) as pseudipigraphical. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com >Two last, final (I think) questions on this index: > >What are First Kingdoms and Fourth Kingdoms? There seem to be four of >them and they are not in any of the 12-15 indexes I've consulted. Are they >Apochrypha, or Pseudepigrapha, or Early Christian, or Second Temple texts >or Rabbinic texts or another way of saying First Kings and Fourth Kings in >the (Catholic) Old Testament/Hebrew Bible? > >How about Third and Fourth Maccabees? Only one source I have shows 3rd and >4th Maccabees following right on 1st and 2nd in the Apochrypha. Is that >right? > >Thank you, thank you! > >Martha >Back Words Indexing > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:54:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Pol Pot Hi Christine, I just had to index "Pol Pot," too, so I looked the name up in Chambers Biographical Dictionary; the name is given there as "Pol Pot" with no cross-reference from Pot, Pol. (Pol Pot was also known as Saloth Sar, which is indexed as "Saloth Sar" in The Cambridge Biographical Encyclopedia, again with no cross-reference from Sar, Saloth. You might want to make a cross-reference from Saloth Sar to Pol Pot, as is done in The Cambridge Biographical Encyclopedia.) At 04:13 AM 7/25/98 -0400, Christine Shuttleworth wrote: >Alan, perhaps you (or someone else) can help me with indexing the name of= > >Pol Pot. I can't find the answer either in Wellisch's Indexing from A to = >Z >or the Chicago Manual of Style, both of which are very good on non-Wester= >n >names. I'm inclined just to put Pol Pot, without inversion, but I don't >know how such names are formed and I've never seen the name except in ful= >l. > >Christine ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:57:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Political correctness Has anyone had their index amended for reasons of political correctness? I'm just about to write the index for an annual report of a certain British organisation. ILast year, they removed the term 'homosexuals' from my index in the grounds it was offensive but left in the term 'Lesbians and gays'. (It was a one page entry so I'd put in both terms). I thought that was very silly and I wasn't even aware that the term 'homosexuals' was offensive! Best wishes Kim (Kim Harris) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:54:02 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Political correctness >From Christine Headley Kim Harris wrote: >=20 > Has anyone had their index amended for reasons of political correctness= ? I'm > just about to write the index for an annual report of a certain British > organisation. Last year, they removed the term 'homosexuals' from my in= dex in > the grounds it was offensive but left in the term 'Lesbians and gays'. = (It was > a one page entry so I'd put in both terms). I thought that was very sil= ly and > I wasn't even aware that the term 'homosexuals' was offensive! I am not clear why an organisation I do a regular index for changed 'Down's Syndrome' to 'Down Syndrome'. Nor whethere their journal now carries references to the latter rather than the former. =20 I have kept with it for consistency, and always mean to query it. --=20 Christine Headley stroud@netvigator.com Hong Kong *************************************************************************= ***** =91People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.=92 Adam Smith (1723-1790) from =91Wealth of Nations=92 *************************************************************************= ***** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:09:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807251204.FAA25862@decibel.electriciti.com> Karen: You obviously are not guilty of it, but please be aware that some view the term political correct, itself, to be offense. In my experience, more often than not (but not exclusively), it has become the red-baiting of the 1990s. I would be equally dumbfounded by the sensitivity about "homosexuals." Why not ask your client if there are terms such as "homosexuals" that they would prefer not be in the index? At 07:57 AM 7/25/98 EDT, you wrote: >Has anyone had their index amended for reasons of political correctness? I'm >just about to write the index for an annual report of a certain British >organisation. ILast year, they removed the term 'homosexuals' from my index in >the grounds it was offensive but left in the term 'Lesbians and gays'. (It was >a one page entry so I'd put in both terms). I thought that was very silly and >I wasn't even aware that the term 'homosexuals' was offensive! > >Best wishes > > >Kim >(Kim Harris) > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:50:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807251256.HAA09427@mailjay.creighton.edu> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > I am not clear why an organisation I do a regular index for changed > 'Down's Syndrome' to 'Down Syndrome'. Nor whethere their journal now > carries references to the latter rather than the former. =20 > > I have kept with it for consistency, and always mean to query it. I think I can help you out there, at least in a limited kind of way. A friend of mine just finished an Anatomy & Physiology textbook this past year, and he came up against this with one of his editors. Down Syndrome was originally named Down's Syndrome after the doctor (John Langdon Down) who made the first clinical diagnosis of it (1866). (It wasn't until 1959 that the chromosomal nature of the syndrome was discovered.) So that's how the "Down's" part originally got attached to it. As to why the "'s" was dropped, there is a sort of movement afoot to remove those from _all_ syndromes which bear a proper name, such a Turner('s) Syndrome, Alagille('s) Syndrome. From what I have been able to discover, it is partly because the "'s" tends to make it look like Down (or Turner, or whoever) HAD the syndrome. I've seen others object to the whole idea of calling a syndrome or anatomical object after the "discoverer" of it. Some parts of the human anatomy (I can't remember which right now) have been changed in recent texts; that is, they've had the "'s" removed. Others have said that "Down Syndrome" has a connotation that they don't like, because of the meaning of the word "down." I wouldn't be suprised to see it referred to as "Trisomy 21" in future texts. Accordign to one thread I've seen on this topic, the "Down's" was dropped in the U.S. but kept in Great Britain and parts of Europe. Others may have more info on this, but I hope this helps somewhat. -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:14:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Political correctness Pam Rider wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Pol Pot Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Political correctness Sarah Smith wrote, re Down Syndrome, formerly Down's Syndrome: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Pol Pot et al. Mitterrand is correct in the 6th edition of Chambers, 1997. Re: Saloth Sar: he was mentioned in that Cambodian cookbook as someone who had studied in Paris with the author's husband. So both names went in the index, Pol Pot as a main entry with a cross-reference from Saloth Sar. At 10:15 AM 7/25/98 -0400, Christine Shuttleworth wrote: I also have the Chambers Biog. Dict. and looked it up in= > >that, but I have never trusted it 100 per cent since I found a few errors= > >in it, such as spelling Mitterrand with one r. (5th edn, 1990) > >I didn't know Pol Pot was known by any other name. In this particular >context I don't think I'll include the alternative name in the index, as = >he >is not mentioned by it and is a very marginal figure in the book, althoug= >h >in another context I might do so. I don't think any reader of this book >would think of looking him up under Saloth Sar. But thanks anyway! > >Christine = > > >************************************************************* >Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services >Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB >Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 >email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com >or 106234.1745@compuserve.com >************************************************************* > > ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:20:23 -0500 Reply-To: Sarah Smith Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Book recommendations wanted Speaking of Chambers reminds me.... I am looking for a good biographical dictionary AND a good medical dictionary. If anyone has any particular suggestions or experiences for/against any particular ones, could you let me know, please? Thanks! -- Sarah Smith (loved the cartoon-caption; does sound like Thurber!) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:39:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807251159.GAA08870@mail.minn.net> At 07:57 AM 7/25/98 EDT, Kim wrote: >Has anyone had their index amended for reasons of political correctness? I'm >just about to write the index for an annual report of a certain British >organisation. ILast year, they removed the term 'homosexuals' from my index in >the grounds it was offensive but left in the term 'Lesbians and gays'. (It was >a one page entry so I'd put in both terms). I thought that was very silly and >I wasn't even aware that the term 'homosexuals' was offensive! Have you never before had the "sponsor" of an index (publisher, organization, whatever) change one of your entries because "That's not our style" or "That's not the term this group uses" or "Our readers won't recognize that" or "In our area of specialization, we don't call it that" or some similar reason? It seems to me that their reason doesn't matter. The index becomes more useful to the readers if the sponsor substitutes the term the readers are accustomed to. Carol Kennedy colfaxgp@minn.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:35:26 -0500 Reply-To: huffmanb@earthlink.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Huffman Subject: Re: Political correctness Re: Changing Down's syndrome to Down syndrome. Currently I am a medical transcriptionist considering learning indexing ... In medical publishing many are going to dropping all the apostrophe-s endings off disease names in the interest of simplicity. Am not sure if this is in the AMA guide or not, but I do know this is happening increasingly. Nancy Huffman Rose Hill, KS ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:27:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MAREA Subject: Re: APA & Political correctness I recently have been using the APA (American Psychological Assoc.) publication manual, and they discourage the use of the term homosexual, too. They advise the use of "lesbian, gay men, and bisexual women or men." And when describing sexual behavior, to use "male-male, female-female male-female." This would be used to describe a married man who had a same-gender encounter. Sexual behavior and sexual orientation are not the same thing. APA states that the term homosexual has been negatively stereotyped in the past, and also some people misinterpret it to refer only to men. The above string is more clear. Down syndrome is preferred- no "s". But it is not exactly the same as Trisomy 21! It can be, but sometimes patients have the syndrome due to a translocation or other abnormality to their chrom. 21, and don't have the trisomy. Marea ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:49:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Babbitt Subject: Re: Political correctness Kim Harris wrote: > > > I wasn't even aware that the term 'homosexuals' was offensive! > > Hi, Kim -- When I was a professor, I taught a history of sexuality course, in which I encouraged my students to look at the history of words that U.S. culture has used for people who are not exclusively heterosexual. Many lesbians, bisexual people, transgendered people, and transvestites feel that the term "homosexual" has been used to refer specifically to "gay men," and that it excludes the other members of the nonheterosexual community. For this reason, some leaders of these communities have suggested using more inclusive language in recent years. Of course, this opens other issues. How is it possible to use language that would include all who are not exclusively heterosexual, since there are so many ways to be that? But that's part of the process of becoming more inclusive -- it's hard, sometimes it hurts, sometimes it gets a little ridiculous, and it's almost impossible to keep current enough to please everybody. But I suspect that this is the position from which your publisher was coming. "Gays and lesbians" is more inclusive than "heterosexual." It at least includes women. Hope this helps. Kathy Babbitt kbab@northnet.org Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:02:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Political correctness At 08:50 AM 7/25/1998 -0500, Sarah Smith wrote: >Others have said that "Down Syndrome" has a connotation that they don't >like, because of the meaning of the word "down." I wouldn't be suprised >to see it referred to as "Trisomy 21" in future texts. And I'm sure many of us remember when Down Syndrome was commonly referred to as Mongolism...until fairly recently, when that usage was deemed not okay, as well. I haven't had to index the term, but I've noticed the same change in usage. In fact, I even looked Down's Syndrome up in several dictionaries after I received a note on letterhead from a local organization with the "'s" left off. I thought I was seeing things, or they had made an embarrassing error in the printing. My references are about half and half, so I guess usage IS changing. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:09:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Down Syndrome/Eponymous terms See American Medical Association Manual of Style: A Guide for Authors and Editors (9th ed., Williams & Wilkins, 1998), p. 470-71. There seems to be an argument that these syndromes (i.e., Down's syndrome) do not actually "belong" to anyone (in other words, there can be confusion with true possessives) and many eponyms are actually "structurally adjectival." Some eponyms have evolved into "derived adjectives" (an example given of this is Addison's disease which forms the term "addisonian crisis"). By getting rid of the possessive, there may be greater "clarity in usage from a linguistic perspective." Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary still includes "the possessive form for many eponymous terms...," while the CBE manual suggests that "the possessive form of eponymous terms be eliminated altogether so that they can be distinguished from true possessives." The use of the nonpossessive form of eponyms is common in genetics. In summary, the AMA manual states that "the transition of eponyms to the nonpossessive form is consistent with trends in English usage." AMA recommends that the possessive form of eponyms be eliminated. Interesting, huh? ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:34:44 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: Political correctness I was talking with a fellow indexer yesterday, who told me that she had indexed a book on sex, and the term "abortion" was removed from the index -- because it was the first term in the index! Go figure... Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:54:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Political correctness Even pronunciation can have political overtones. The classic example I like to give is the word Nicaruaga. A person's pronunciation is often a key to their political leanings. Here is how it breaks down: far right: Nick-a-rag-wha (emphasis on rag with a strong element of derision) middle road: Nick-a-rog-wha (emphasis on Nick) lefist leaning/politically correct: Nich-a-rog-wha [where the "ich" in Nich sounds roughly like the German gutteral "Ich"] really leftist: Knee-ha-ra-wha (emphasis on the sing-song nature of the Spanish) Just some work avoidance oriented musings. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 07:28:18 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Names with particles (WAS: French names) Peter Rooney gave this advice: ... if an English or American resident, the name is treated as solid De Quincey, Thomas De Mille, Agnes B. And by the way, even if alphabetizing is word-by-word, the space after the particle "De" is ignored, so the name is alph'd as if spelled Dequincey (sorts after "Depew") I queried this in an earlier post, but neither Peter nor anyone else has yet responded. It seems to me that we should stick to EITHER word-by-word sorting OR letter-by-letter sorting throughout an entire index. I can't see any merit in using both methods in one index. Consider the following sequences, all sorted word-by-word: De Mille, Agnes B. De Quincey, Thomas Deas, Stewart Dehmel, Richard Du Fresne, Yvonne Duckworth, Marilyn Dudding, Robin La Fontaine, Jean de Laban, Rudolf von Lacis, Vilis Laforgue, Jules Mac Colla, Fionn Macaulay, Thomas Babington MacBeth, George O hUanacha/in, Michea/l [a/ = a with acute accent] O'Casey, Sean Ogilvie, W.H. O'Halloran, Patrick Te Kanawa, Kiri Te Ua Haumene Temple, Philip Van Diemen, Antonio Van Hulst, John Vancouver, George Von Tempsky, Gustavus Vonnegut, Kurt Compare the above sequences with those produced by letter-by-letter sorting: Deas, Stewart Dehmel, Richard De Mille, Agnes B. De Quincey, Thomas Duckworth, Marilyn Dudding, Robin Du Fresne, Yvonne Laban, Rudolf von Lacis, Vilis La Fontaine, Jean de Laforgue, Jules Macaulay, Thomas Babington MacBeth, George Mac Colla, Fionn O'Casey, Sean Ogilvie, W.H. O'Halloran, Patrick O hUanacha/in, Michea/l Te Kanawa, Kiri Temple, Philip Te Ua Haumene Vancouver, George Van Diemen, Antonio Van Hulst, John Vonnegut, Kurt Von Tempsky, Gustavus Perhaps the letter-by-letter sequence will be thought preferable. If so, then I suggest that the entire index should be sorted letter-by-letter. To use letter-by-letter sorting for names beginning with particles such as "De", "Du", "La", "Mac", "O", "Te", "Van", "Von", etc. (and there are many others), but word-by-word sorting for all other terms, seems to me decidedly unhelpful. I'd still be interested in seeing a reasoned defence of the mixed arrangement from Peter Rooney or anyone else who may share his view of the matter. And my original query still stands: Is the mixed arrangement supported by any noteworthy precedent, or recommended in any indexing textbook or standard, or required by any reputable publishing house? >From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile (+64) 7-854-9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:44:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807251417.KAA33436@rs8.loc.gov> Umm, I don't think the word "homosexual" is being phased out because it is considered "offensive"; but rather because it is not the word preferred by members of that group. There is nothing wrong or offensive with "Negro" or "colored," but you won't find that used in indexing anymore either. (Yow, and a couple of years ago for some weird reason I said "colored woman" once and felt as though I had said the N-word!!) Anyone have to flip flop between Hispanics or Latinos in indexing? The word (homosexual) of course also has a lot of value judgments trailing behind it and has among many people negative connotations (more so than with Negro, colored, or Hispanic), so that might be one other reason to get rid of it. Personally, I wish the word had never been coined (about 110 years ago?) although I guess at the time it was an attempt to come up with a neutral, scientific term divorced from the value judgments contained in the religious terms used for same-sex relations. (And it is certainly better than Uranian, which was used earlier in the 19th cent.!) But by making heterosexual the "opposite" of or completely different from homosexual, well, you leave out that very large gray area of sexuality "inbetween" and that I think has caused no end of problems for many men and women who have bisexual tendencies/experiences and may go through a lot of hell because they feel that "have" to be either A or B. (I could go on .... :) but won't). I have also been surprised to hear that "Oriental" is considered incorrect--one should say "Asian" instead. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:33:00 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Reference books for personal names At 04:13 AM 25/07/98 -0400, Christine Shuttleworth wrote: >Alan, perhaps you (or someone else) can help me with indexing the name of= > >Pol Pot. I can't find the answer either in Wellisch's Indexing from A to = >Z >or the Chicago Manual of Style, both of which are very good on non-Wester= >n >names. I'm inclined just to put Pol Pot, without inversion, but I don't >know how such names are formed and I've never seen the name except in ful= >l. That's right. No inversion, just straight through for Cambodian personal names. It's an adopted name (like Tito or Stalin), and I wouldn't usually think it requires a cross-reference from the birth name (Saloth Sar) since he was always known (or notorious) as Pol Pot. But I gather from your later posting that the earlier name was used in the book, referring to him as a student in Paris, so the cross-reference is needed. (I now see that other people have answered this question already, but I'll post this anyway, since I want to add the next bit, in answer to Sarah Smith's query about reference books.) I share Christine's unease about Chambers Biographical Dictionary, although I use it all the time. But for Asian names I always like to check another source as well, if possible. Reference books vary in their choice of entry word for names like: Abdul Rahman, Tungku (cf Rahman, Tungku Adbul) and Abdul Razak, Tun (cf Razak, Tun Adbul). I have not yet seen, but intend to buy: Names of persons: national usages for entry in catalogues. 4th rev. and enlarged ed. Munich; New Providence; London; Paris: K.G. Saur, 1996. There is an interesting and generally favourable review of it in The Indexer, vol. 21 no. 1, April 1998, pp.53-4. Alan. -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:42:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: RTF Thanks to those who replied on list and off to my nattering about Rich Text Files. Special thanks to Jan who led me to realize that when saving files as RTF in Cindex, there are options. In particular, one can choose among "styles," "tabs," and "other." I was using the default of styles and that was exacerbating some of the problems I've had. When saving files, it pays to be alert. (The world needs more lerts.) Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:16:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Political correctness On 7/25/98 18:44 Sam Andrusko wrote (in part): >Anyone have to flip flop between Hispanics or Latinos in indexing? Oh, yeah. In the same text, even. With Latinas added in for gender PC. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:58:55 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Political correctness At 11:49 AM 25/07/98 -0400, you wrote: > Many... people feel that the term "homosexual" has been used to refer >specifically to "gay men" This is the important point - what people "feel" about a word. Unfortunately (or challengingly) for us indexers, people's feelings change quickly about these things, and we have to try to reflect that in our access points. The feeling reported about this particular word is based on false etymology since the "homo-" is the Greek for "same" not the Latin for "male", but that doesn't matter. The standard Australian dictionary (Macquarie) says: "homosexuality: sexual feeling for a person of the same sex, esp. between men." I recently used "homosexual relationships" in an index for a legal book, since that was the term used in the book, and it was clear that in that context and for that audience it meant "same sex relationships" in general. Legal language can be old-fashioned, and in this case the term seemed precise. But in a book intended for non-specialists I am preferring "lesbians" and "gay men", with see references to both from "homosexual people". I hope that I am making the right judgement about the preferences and usage of the two readerships. Alan -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:19:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807252347.SAA08686@mailjay.creighton.edu> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Sam Andrusko wrote: > I have also been surprised to hear that "Oriental" is considered > incorrect--one should say "Asian" instead. *nods* "Asian" refers to geography; "Oriental" refers to nothing at all except where that area of the world was in relation to the early European explorers/travelers (Orient = East). Makes sense to me; it's not consistent to call it the Orient unless we call ourselves the Occident. :) -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: More about possessive eponyms I e-mailed my Anatomy/Physiology friend. He said, in part, that he was told that it was considered "politically incorrect" to use the apostrophe-s for Down Syndrome. He didn't mind that, but it seemed inconsistent to him, "because you hardly ever see nonpossessive forms such as Alzheimer disease and Lou Gehrig disease." (He shares my obsession for consistency, apparently!) He followed the AMA recommendation (see below) in his book, but has since become uncomfortable with this in SOME cases. He told me, "For example, there are two language centers in the brain I'm sure you know, Wernicke's area and Broca's area. It seems odd to me to say 'Broca area,' and yet I felt that to say 'area of Broca' would be taking too much liberty with the biomedical nomenclature. (We say either 'Henle's loop' or 'loop of Henle' in renal anatomy.)" He also says: > I did buy the new AMA Style Manual, and it provides some latitude for a > little bit of inconsistency (chapter 13, pp. 469-472). Square brackets > are my annotations; curly brackets are slight paraphrases of the style > manual for the sake of brevity. My asterisks are bullets in the > original. > > "...Traditionally, eponyms named after the discoverer took the > possessive form (-'s) and those in the latter 2 categories [name of a > person who had the disease, such as Lou Gehrig disease, or an eponym > based on a geographic locality, such as Lyme disease] took the > nonpossessive form. These distinctions are beginning to fade. > > "...There is continuing debate over the use of the possessive form; > however, a gradual transition toward the nonpossessive form may be > taking place, as illustrated by the change from Down's to Down syndrome. > > "The National Down Syndrome Society advocates the use of Down syndrome, > arguing that the syndrome does not actually belong to anyone. {The > possessive form recently has been dropped by Dorland's Illustrated > Medical Dictionary and the Council of Biology Editors style manual.} > The CBE manual recommends that the possessive form of eponymous terms > be eliminated altogether so they can be distinguished from true > possessives. Dorland's continues ... to consider eponyms as an example > of a stylistic matter left up to the individual. [long elision about > historical trends in eponyms] > > "The following recommendations provide a rationale for a preference for > the nonpossessive form in particular categories of eponymous terms. > These recommendations promote mellifluous usage [which "Broca area" > certainly does not!] and minimize misspellings. > > "*When the word following begins with a sibilant c, s, or z (eg, > syndrome, sign, zone): > Schwann cell Korsakoff psychosis > Bitot spots Cullen sign > Looser zones Reye syndrome > > "*When an eponym ends in ce, s, or z: > Meigs syndrome Graves disease > Colles fracture Wilms tumor > Homans sign legionnaires disease > Fordyce disease Grawitz tumor > Betz cell > > "*When 2 or more names are involved: > Carcot-Marie-Toth disease > Dejerine-Sottas dystrophy > Pierre Robin syndrome > > "*When an article (a, an, the) precedes the term: > a Schatzki ring > an Opie paradox > > "There may be instances in which current English idiomatic usage or > author preference would suggest that a possessive form is preferable: > Ringer's lactate solution > > "Occasionally, in certain usages, the nonpossessive eponymous term may > appear awkward. This can be addressed by using 'the' before the term: > the Avogadro number the Starling law > the Pascal principle the Tukey test > > "Alternative stylings for terms may include the use of 'of': > circle of Willis > > "In view of the rationale given for preferring the nonpossessive form in > particular instances, recommendations of authorities, and in keeping > with the desire to promote clarity and consistency in scientific > writing, we recommend that the possessive form be omitted in eponymous > terms." [end of chapter, except for citations] Whew! That's probably more than you wanted or needed to know right now, eh? Hope it was somewhat helpful, though. -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:29:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Political correctness At 09:19 PM 7/25/1998 -0500, Sarah Smith wrote: >*nods* "Asian" refers to geography; "Oriental" refers to nothing at all >except where that area of the world was in relation to the early European >explorers/travelers (Orient = East). Makes sense to me; it's not >consistent to call it the Orient unless we call ourselves the Occident. ...Which we did, in many references, up until fairly recently. There's even an Occidental College in CA (meaning, of course, "Western" College). In older books and travelogues, I recall seeing what we would think of as the West (i.e., Europe, North and South America) referred to as the Occident as opposed to the Orient, and I remember once seeing Russia referred to as the crossroads of the Orient and the Occident. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 08:15:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Re: Political correctness Sam Andrusko wrote: "I have also been surprised to hear that "Oriental" is considered incorrect--one should say "Asian" instead." The problem with "Oriental" is that it implies a eurocentric or coloniali= st viewpoint, whereas "Asian" is merely factual. I wonder whether Australians or New Zealanders use the term "Oriental"? Sue Lightfoot Cornwall, England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 08:31:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Political correctness Christine (Re homosexuals) Thank you! I was astonished! But this year I shall leave it out and add 'sexual orientation' which I see more and more in human rights and EU books. Kim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 08:35:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Political correctness- Carol Kennedy's reply I'm pretty sure that most people are familiar woth the term 'homosexual' (especially the readers of this organisation's annual reports). I do change terms as required by the publisher (of course I do) but this struck me as rather strange. That's all. Kim (Kim Harris) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 08:42:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Political correctness Thanks to everyone re the usage of the term 'homosexual'. I shall be using 'lesbians and gays' and 'sexual orientation' for this year's annual report. (It's only a small reference so I don't think it would be worth adding more terms.). Best wishes Kim Kim Harris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:53:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807260224.TAA09798@decibel.electriciti.com> The interchange below points out a major problem with the terms, pc, political correctness. I was educated in language usage to be as correct and precise as possible. I appreciate that folks of goodwill were not taught so strictly. Dismissing precision in language as PC just dumbs us all down. At 09:19 PM 7/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Sam Andrusko wrote: > >> I have also been surprised to hear that "Oriental" is considered >> incorrect--one should say "Asian" instead. > >*nods* "Asian" refers to geography; "Oriental" refers to nothing at all >except where that area of the world was in relation to the early European >explorers/travelers (Orient = East). Makes sense to me; it's not >consistent to call it the Orient unless we call ourselves the Occident. >:) > >-- Sarah Smith > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:43:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Political correctness Kim Harris wrote: <(Re homosexuals) Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Political correctness Pam Rider wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807261649.JAA22278@decibel.electriciti.com> At 12:43 PM 7/26/98 -0400, you wrote: > Some of us are not as quick to catch up as others. I >don't think it's a question of how we were brought up. > Where did I make this claim? It is an unfair accusation. It is common among people who are found of bashing so-called PC. I didn't think Christine was in that category. My observation is that the guilt-tripping in all this primarily begins with people casting out the PC label. Just an observation that may be skewed by viewpoint. AND has nothing to do with the upbringing of folks using the term PC--but lots to do with their contemporary mindset. > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:36:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Naturally Speaking & Sky (was Which product is best?) Dear Jeri, I have purchased the Sky Index program, but have not used it yet. I was interested in your NaturallySpeaking software. I have heard that there are two versions. I was told the cheaper one (<$100) only allows dictation directly into the program itself. You then have to transfer the text into you application software. The other version (~$150 ?) allows you to dictate directly into your application. I assume you have the second version? I am not a fast typist, and I am concerned with how that will impact my indexing speed. I am glad to hear that you are pleased with the NaturallySpeaking. How long did it take to train the program? Anybody else have any experience with this? TIA Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:36:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Targets moving akimbo :) Sarah, A "moving target" is something that is constantly changing, so you can never "get a fix on it." From hearing my husband talk about dove hunting, I wonder if the term grew out of that sport (the critters are really fast), or from hunting in general. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:57:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Ergonomics Hi all, I happened on this site today. In view of our past discussions of chairs I thought some of you might be interested. In addition to desk chairs and loungers, they have a portable back support and one designed for reading in bed. Sounds like everything is adjustable, and the chairs are made for persons of different heights. Being 5'4" myself, I was interested in their "under 5'5" category. www.backsaver.com Has anyone on list bought from them? Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:28:57 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Chat: Moving targets In-Reply-To: <199807261839.LAA18048@accessone.com> V2hlbiBJIGhlYXIgIm1vdmluZyB0YXJnZXQiIEkgdGhpbmsgb2YgdGhvc2Ugc2hvb3RpbmcgZ2Ft ZXMgYXQgY2Fybml2YWxzIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBkdWNrcyBnbyBieSBpbiBhbiBlbmRsZXNzIGxvb3Au ICBJdCdzIGEgdGVybSB1c2VkIG9mdGVuIGluIHNvZnR3YXJlIGRldmVsb3BtZW50LCB3aGVyZSB0 aGUgZGV2ZWxvcGVycyBhcmUgY29tcGxhaW5pbmcgYmVjYXVzZSBqdXN0IHdoZW4gdGhleSB0aGlu ayB0aGV5IGtub3cgd2hhdCB0aGV5J3JlIGJ1aWxkaW5nLCBzb21lb25lIGNvbWVzIGFsb25nIGFu ZCBhZGRzIG5ldyBmZWF0dXJlcy4gIEl0J3MganVzdCBpbXBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIGNvbWUgaW4gb24g c2NoZWR1bGUgd2hlbiB5b3UncmUgYnVpbGRpbmcgYSBtb3ZpbmcgdGFyZ2V0LCBhbmQgc29tZWhv dyBub2JvZHkgZXZlciBjaGFuZ2VzIHRoZSBzY2hlZHVsZSB0byBtYXRjaCB0aGUgbmV3IGZlYXR1 cmVzLiAgQW5kIGlmIHlvdSdyZSB0cnlpbmcgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCBhIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgc3BlY2lm aWNhdGlvbiAobGlrZSBydGYpIGFuZCB0aGUgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBrZWVwcyBjaGFuZ2luZywgd2Vs bCwgZ29vZCBsdWNrLiAgQnV0IGFzIEphbiBzYXlzLCBydGYgc2VlbXMgdG8gd29yayBwcmV0dHkg ZGFybiB3ZWxsLg0KDQpBbm90aGVyIHRlcm0gSSBsaWtlIGlzICJkZWF0aCBtYXJjaCIgLSB1c2Vk IHRvIGRlc2NyaWJlIHRoYXQgbG9uZyBwYWluZnVsIHBlcmlvZCBiZXR3ZWVuIHdoZW4gdGhlIHBy b2dyYW1tZXIgdGhpbmtzIHRoZSBwcm9kdWN0IGlzIGNvbXBsZXRlIChvciB5b3UncmUganVzdCBz byBzaWNrIG9mIGl0IHlvdSBjb3VsZCBkaWUpIGFuZCB3aGVuIGl0IGFjdHVhbGx5IGdldHMgcmVs ZWFzZWQgdG8gcHJvZHVjdGlvbi4gIEkgZXhwZWN0IGluZGV4ZXJzIHNvbWV0aW1lcyBoYXZlIGEg c2ltaWxhciBleHBlcmllbmNlIHdpdGggYmlnIHByb2plY3RzLiA6LSkNCg0KVmlja2kgQmlyY2hm aWVsZA0KS2FsZXNpcyBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBTeXN0ZW1zDQp2YmlyY2hmaWVsZEBrYWxlc2lzLmNv bQ0KVm9pY2U6ICgyMDYpIDUyNC0yMDI2ICAgRmF4OiAoMjA2KSA1MjQtMzA0NA0KDQo+IC0tLS0t T3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IEluZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNjdXNzaW9uIEdyb3Vw DQo+IFttYWlsdG86SU5ERVgtTEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVXU9uIEJlaGFsZiBP ZiBBbm4gVHJ1ZXNkYWxlDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFN1bmRheSwgSnVseSAyNiwgMTk5OCAxMTozNyBBTQ0K PiBUbzogTXVsdGlwbGUgcmVjaXBpZW50cyBvZiBsaXN0IElOREVYLUwNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6 IFRhcmdldHMgbW92aW5nIGFraW1ibyA6KQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFNhcmFoLA0KPiANCj4gQSAibW92 aW5nIHRhcmdldCIgaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgaXMgY29uc3RhbnRseSBjaGFuZ2luZywgc28g DQo+IHlvdSBjYW4gbmV2ZXINCj4gImdldCBhIGZpeCBvbiBpdC4iIEZyb20gaGVhcmluZyBteSBo dXNiYW5kIHRhbGsgYWJvdXQgZG92ZSANCj4gaHVudGluZywgSSB3b25kZXINCj4gaWYgdGhlIHRl cm0gZ3JldyBvdXQgb2YgdGhhdCBzcG9ydCAodGhlIGNyaXR0ZXJzIGFyZSByZWFsbHkgDQo+IGZh c3QpLCBvciBmcm9tDQo+IGh1bnRpbmcgaW4gZ2VuZXJhbC4NCj4gDQo+IEFubiBUcnVlc2RhbGUN Cj4g ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:38:38 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Chat- Moving Target Garbled Target V293LCBzb3JyeSBpZiB0aGlzIGlzIGEgZHVwbGljYXRlIHBvc3QsIGJ1dCBJIGp1c3QgcmVjZWl2 ZWQgbXkgbGFzdCBwb3N0IHRvIHRoaXMgbGlzdCwgYW5kIGl0IHdhcyB1bnJlYWRhYmxlIEdBUkJB R0UhICBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgd2hhdCBoYXBwZW5lZCwgYnV0IHRoaXMgaXMgd2hhdCBJIGFjdHVh bGx5IHNlbnQ6DQoNCg0KV2hlbiBJIGhlYXIgIm1vdmluZyB0YXJnZXQiIEkgdGhpbmsgb2YgdGhv c2Ugc2hvb3RpbmcgZ2FtZXMgYXQgY2Fybml2YWxzIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBkdWNrcyBnbyBieSBpbiBh biBlbmRsZXNzIGxvb3AuICBJdCdzIGEgdGVybSB1c2VkIG9mdGVuIGluIHNvZnR3YXJlIGRldmVs b3BtZW50LCB3aGVyZSB0aGUgZGV2ZWxvcGVycyBhcmUgY29tcGxhaW5pbmcgYmVjYXVzZSBqdXN0 IHdoZW4gdGhleSB0aGluayB0aGV5IGtub3cgd2hhdCB0aGV5J3JlIGJ1aWxkaW5nLCBzb21lb25l IGNvbWVzIGFsb25nIGFuZCBhZGRzIG5ldyBmZWF0dXJlcy4gIEl0J3MganVzdCBpbXBvc3NpYmxl IHRvIGNvbWUgaW4gb24gc2NoZWR1bGUgd2hlbiB5b3UncmUgYnVpbGRpbmcgYSBtb3ZpbmcgdGFy Z2V0LCBhbmQgc29tZWhvdyBub2JvZHkgZXZlciBjaGFuZ2VzIHRoZSBzY2hlZHVsZSB0byBtYXRj aCB0aGUgbmV3IGZlYXR1cmVzLiAgQW5kIGlmIHlvdSdyZSB0cnlpbmcgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCBhIHBh cnRpY3VsYXIgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiAobGlrZSBydGYpIGFuZCB0aGUgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBrZWVw cyBjaGFuZ2luZywgd2VsbCwgZ29vZCBsdWNrLiAgQnV0IGFzIEphbiBzYXlzLCBydGYgc2VlbXMg dG8gd29yayBwcmV0dHkgZGFybiB3ZWxsLg0KDQpBbm90aGVyIHRlcm0gSSBsaWtlIGlzICJkZWF0 aCBtYXJjaCIgLSB1c2VkIHRvIGRlc2NyaWJlIHRoYXQgbG9uZyBwYWluZnVsIHBlcmlvZCBiZXR3 ZWVuIHdoZW4gdGhlIHByb2dyYW1tZXIgdGhpbmtzIHRoZSBwcm9kdWN0IGlzIGNvbXBsZXRlIChv ciB5b3UncmUganVzdCBzbyBzaWNrIG9mIGl0IHlvdSBjb3VsZCBkaWUpIGFuZCB3aGVuIGl0IGFj dHVhbGx5IGdldHMgcmVsZWFzZWQgdG8gcHJvZHVjdGlvbi4gIEkgZXhwZWN0IGluZGV4ZXJzIHNv bWV0aW1lcyBoYXZlIGEgc2ltaWxhciBleHBlcmllbmNlIHdpdGggYmlnIHByb2plY3RzLiA6LSkN Cg0KVmlja2kgQmlyY2hmaWVsZA0KS2FsZXNpcyBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBTeXN0ZW1zDQp2YmlyY2hm aWVsZEBrYWxlc2lzLmNvbQ0KVm9pY2U6ICgyMDYpIDUyNC0yMDI2ICAgRmF4OiAoMjA2KSA1MjQt MzA0NA0KDQo= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:44:37 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Sorry, testing new email program. Ignore this post. In-Reply-To: <199807261858.LAA20124@accessone.com> DQpXb3csIHNvcnJ5IGlmIHRoaXMgaXMgYSBkdXBsaWNhdGUgcG9zdCwgYnV0IEkganVzdCByZWNl aXZlZCBteSBsYXN0IHBvc3QgdG8gdGhpcyBsaXN0LCBhbmQgaXQgd2FzIHVucmVhZGFibGUgR0FS QkFHRSEgIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyB3aGF0IGhhcHBlbmVkLCBidXQgdGhpcyBpcyB3aGF0IEkgYWN0 dWFsbHkgc2VudDoNCg0KDQpXaGVuIEkgaGVhciAibW92aW5nIHRhcmdldCIgSSB0aGluayBvZiB0 aG9zZSBzaG9vdGluZyBnYW1lcyBhdCBjYXJuaXZhbHMgd2hlcmUgdGhlIGR1Y2tzIGdvIGJ5IGlu IGFuIGVuZGxlc3MgbG9vcC4gIEl0J3MgYSB0ZXJtIHVzZWQgb2Z0ZW4gaW4gc29mdHdhcmUgZGV2 ZWxvcG1lbnQsIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBkZXZlbG9wZXJzIGFyZSBjb21wbGFpbmluZyBiZWNhdXNlIGp1 c3Qgd2hlbiB0aGV5IHRoaW5rIHRoZXkga25vdyB3aGF0IHRoZXkncmUgYnVpbGRpbmcsIHNvbWVv bmUgY29tZXMgYWxvbmcgYW5kIGFkZHMgbmV3IGZlYXR1cmVzLiAgSXQncyBqdXN0IGltcG9zc2li bGUgdG8gY29tZSBpbiBvbiBzY2hlZHVsZSB3aGVuIHlvdSdyZSBidWlsZGluZyBhIG1vdmluZyB0 YXJnZXQsIGFuZCBzb21laG93IG5vYm9keSBldmVyIGNoYW5nZXMgdGhlIHNjaGVkdWxlIHRvIG1h dGNoIHRoZSBuZXcgZmVhdHVyZXMuICBBbmQgaWYgeW91J3JlIHRyeWluZyB0byBzdXBwb3J0IGEg cGFydGljdWxhciBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIChsaWtlIHJ0ZikgYW5kIHRoZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uIGtl ZXBzIGNoYW5naW5nLCB3ZWxsLCBnb29kIGx1Y2suICBCdXQgYXMgSmFuIHNheXMsIHJ0ZiBzZWVt cyB0byB3b3JrIHByZXR0eSBkYXJuIHdlbGwuDQoNCkFub3RoZXIgdGVybSBJIGxpa2UgaXMgImRl YXRoIG1hcmNoIiAtIHVzZWQgdG8gZGVzY3JpYmUgdGhhdCBsb25nIHBhaW5mdWwgcGVyaW9kIGJl dHdlZW4gd2hlbiB0aGUgcHJvZ3JhbW1lciB0aGlua3MgdGhlIHByb2R1Y3QgaXMgY29tcGxldGUg KG9yIHlvdSdyZSBqdXN0IHNvIHNpY2sgb2YgaXQgeW91IGNvdWxkIGRpZSkgYW5kIHdoZW4gaXQg YWN0dWFsbHkgZ2V0cyByZWxlYXNlZCB0byBwcm9kdWN0aW9uLiAgSSBleHBlY3QgaW5kZXhlcnMg c29tZXRpbWVzIGhhdmUgYSBzaW1pbGFyIGV4cGVyaWVuY2Ugd2l0aCBiaWcgcHJvamVjdHMuIDot KQ== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:55:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Chat: (on behalf of Vicki)Moving Targets/Garbage/Apologies Vicki's e-mail program is misbehavin'. ---------------------------------- Wow, sorry about all the garbage. I got a new version of Outlook 98. My email to other people looked fine, but to the list - argh, you all saw it. Anyway, be forewarned - Outlook 98 turned on mime encoding by default, even when upgrading from Outlook97 which did not have mime turned on. Grrrr. I'm afraid it still isn't right, so Deborah is kindly forwarding this for me. What I originally said (and which now doesn't seem worth all this effort): When I hear "moving target" I think of those shooting games at carnivals where the ducks go by in an endless loop. It's a term used often in software development, where the developers are complaining because just when they think they know what they're building, someone comes along and adds new features. It's just impossible to come in on schedule when you're building a moving target, and somehow nobody ever changes the schedule to match the new features. And if you're trying to support a particular specification (like RTF) and the definition keeps changing, well, good luck. But as Jan says, RTF seems to work pretty darn well. Another term I like is "death march" - used to describe that long painful period between when the programmer thinks the product is complete (or you're just so sick of it you could die) and when it actually gets released to production. I expect indexers sometimes have a similar experience with big projects. :-) Vicki Birchfield Kalesis Information Systems vbirchfield@kalesis.com Voice: (206) 524-2026 Fax: (206) 524-3044 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:20:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael L. Olason" Subject: NATURALLY SPEAKING Ann, I have been using Naturally Speaking (Preferred Edition) since February 1998. I use Cindex, so I create a tab-delineated text file to read into Cindex. I have found Naturally Speaking extremely easy to use and very accurate. I especially like the capability to creat different dictionaries for the various subject areas that I index in. I'm an average typist, and with Naturally Speaking, my input time has been cut in half. Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps oleduke@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:44:41 +0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Political Correctness In-Reply-To: At a guess, the arbitrariness of such stipulations as 'homosexual' but not 'Lesbian' being deemed offensive, is a power play. If so, should indexers and others not stand against what amounts to hijacking of the language? Regards _John Sampson_ ------------------------------------------------- John R. Sampson jsampson@indexes.u-net.com (for certified PGP public key search for this address on World Wide Web at http://www.Four11.com/) ------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:48:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: NATURALLY SPEAKING In-Reply-To: <199807262020.QAA11817@camel23.mindspring.com> At 03:20 PM 7/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >Ann, > >I have been using Naturally Speaking (Preferred Edition) since February >1998. I use Cindex, so I create a tab-delineated text file to read >into Cindex. I have found Naturally Speaking extremely easy to use and >very accurate. It probably wouldn't be much use for indexing computer books, though. Consider the following entries: $CHARZBw format CEXIST function CNTLLEV= option DACCDBSL function DKRICOND= option $EBCDICw. format FIPNAMEL function LRECL= argument and the ever popular: NETENCRYPTALGORITHM= option Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:40:11 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: NATURALLY SPEAKING Susan Olason wrote: > > I create a tab-delineated text file to read into Cindex... > I'm an average typist, and with Naturally Speaking, > my input time has been cut in half. Just think how much time you'd save if you used Naturally Speaking to create the tab-delimited text file, too! --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:05:55 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Political correctness >I wonder whether Australians or New Zealanders use the term "Oriental"? I don't think Oz or NZ usage is any different from British or US. The word exists and is known, but is found mainly in historical contexts or set phrases such as "Peninsular & Oriental". The ordinary current term is "Asian" (e.g. Asian downturn, Asian immigration, Asian students), unless the reference is to people of a particular country (e.g. Japanese, Chinese, Cambodian). I dare say "Orient" or "Oriental" might still be found in association with words like "mystery" or "magic" in such contexts as tourist brochures or advertising. >From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile (+64) 7-854-9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:50:02 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Political correctness At 10:05 AM 27/07/98 +1200, you wrote: >>I wonder whether Australians or New Zealanders use the term "Oriental"? I agree with Simon Cauchi, who wrote: >I don't think Oz or NZ usage is any different from British or US. The word >exists and is known, but is found mainly in historical contexts or set >phrases such as "Peninsular & Oriental". The ordinary current term is >"Asian" There is also a tendency to use the term "Near North" for what Europeans (used to?) call the "Far East". This is of course a deliberate political ploy to correct Eurocentrism. Alan -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:23:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Political correctness - Pam Rider Can I make it quite clear that when I asked the question about having terms removed from indexes because of political correctness (removal of term 'homosexual' in my case), I was repeating the reason given to me, not my attutude for and against political correctness. I'm also not sure if 'dumbing-down' is a precise or helpful use of language. Kim Kim Harris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:37:28 -0700 Reply-To: jlee@eskimo.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: NATURALLY SPEAKING In this instance, you might consider a combination of voice and keyboard entries. At least some of it might go faster. Jeri Lee > > > It probably wouldn't be much use for indexing computer books, though. > Consider the following entries: > > $CHARZBw format > CEXIST function > CNTLLEV= option > DACCDBSL function > DKRICOND= option > $EBCDICw. format > FIPNAMEL function > LRECL= argument > > and the ever popular: > > NETENCRYPTALGORITHM= option > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:01:06 -0700 Reply-To: jlee@eskimo.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Naturally Speaking & Sky (was Which product is best?) Ann, Personally, I don't think I'd want to use the "personal edition." That came bundled with my WordPerfect 8, so I didn't spend money to get it. It's okay, but for "real work" it doesn't seem responsive enough. I first got the Preferred and liked it, but it seemed a bit limited. I now have the new 3.0 Professional version and it's a dream to work with. I'm using it in my medical transcription business (which I still do while learning indexing) and it's performing very well. As a matter fact, I'm using it insead of the keyboard for this message! However, NaturallySpeaking is a real hog when it comes to system resources! Minimum recommendations for the professional are 200 hz and 64 RAM with best performance at 300 hz and 96 to 128 RAM but at least for me it's really worth it. My hands took a beating during my 35 years in medical transcription, so NS is a real lifesaver. I'm glad you got SKY. I think you'll find it very easy to learn and to use. Let me know if you subsequently get NS. Maybe we should start a sub-Index-L for those of us who use NS as well? It's a thought . . . Jeri Lee Ann Truesdale wrote: > Dear Jeri, > > I have purchased the Sky Index program, but have not used it yet. I was > interested in your NaturallySpeaking software. I have heard that there are two > versions. I was told the cheaper one (<$100) only allows dictation directly > into the program itself. You then have to transfer the text into you > application software. The other version (~$150 ?) allows you to dictate > directly into your application. I assume you have the second version? > > I am not a fast typist, and I am concerned with how that will impact my > indexing speed. I am glad to hear that you are pleased with the > NaturallySpeaking. How long did it take to train the program? > > Anybody else have any experience with this? > > TIA > > Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:14:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Far East/Near North In-Reply-To: <199807262234.SAA40408@rs8.loc.gov> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Alan Walker wrote: > There is also a tendency to use the term "Near North" for what Europeans > (used to?) call the "Far East". This is of course a deliberate political > ploy to correct Eurocentrism. Gee, Alan, sounds to me that in "correcting Eurocentrism" you are merely falling into the trap of Austral-New Zealand centrism! :) Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:22:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Political correctness - Pam Rider In-Reply-To: <199807262325.TAA53436@rs8.loc.gov> Kim, Please don't get flustered or upset over the many messages your innocent question initiated. Don't forget that by the time the 2nd or 3rd message was posted, no one had any idea that you were the "guilty" party and 99% of us never even remembered exactly what you wrote! It's weird and amazing how far afield we can go from an initial message! Just relax!! Lie low! Sam Andrusko On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Kim Harris wrote: > Can I make it quite clear that when I asked the question about having terms > removed from indexes because of political correctness (removal of term > 'homosexual' in my case), I was repeating the reason given to me, not my > attutude for and against political correctness. > > I'm also not sure if 'dumbing-down' is a precise or helpful use of language. > > Kim > > Kim Harris > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:19:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: Down Syndrome/Eponymous terms Cynthia Bertelsen comments, "In summary, the AMA manual states that "the transition of eponyms to the nonpossessive form is consistent with trends in English usage." One trend in English usage, well known to all who, like me, are veteran teachers of college English classes, is that recent college students, even bright ones, have serious difficulty in grasping the complexities of possessive forms of any nouns (and of the prounoun "it"). "Down syndrome" will come as a great relief to them. Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:53:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Re: Ergonomics In-Reply-To: <199807261857.NAA15069@mailjay.creighton.edu> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Ann Truesdale wrote: > I happened on this site today. [www.backsaver.com] > In addition to desk chairs and > loungers, they have a portable back support and one designed for reading in > bed. Ann, I went to the site and saw some products, but I can't find the "reading in bed" one. Did you see that in their actual catalog, or have they changed the page extremely recently? -- Sarah Smith, who used to have time to read for pleasure :) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:05:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Re: Chat: (on behalf of Vicki)Moving Targets/Garbage/Apologies In-Reply-To: <199807261957.OAA23612@mailjay.creighton.edu> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Deborah Shaw (but really Vicki) wrote: > When I hear "moving target" I think of those > shooting games at carnivals where the ducks go by > in an endless loop. It's a term used often in > software development, where the developers are > complaining because just when they think they know > what they're building, someone comes along and > adds new features. It's just impossible to come > in on schedule when you're building a moving > target, and somehow nobody ever changes the > schedule to match the new features. And if you're > trying to support a particular specification (like > RTF) and the definition keeps changing, well, good > luck. But as Jan says, RTF seems to work pretty > darn well. Thanks bunches, Vicki! I wasn't very clear in my original query; I understood "moving target" in the simplest sense of the word (as in the hunting or carnival-ducks context) but couldn't for the life of me see how it related to RTF format. Your explanation makes it all clear. Thank you! -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:08:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807261234.FAA25657@pacific.net> Kim wrote: >Thank you! I was astonished! But this year I shall leave it out and add >'sexual orientation' which I see more and more in human rights and EU books. and: >Thanks to everyone re the usage of the term 'homosexual'. I shall be using >'lesbians and gays' and 'sexual orientation' for this year's annual report. >(It's only a small reference so I don't think it would be worth adding more >terms.). Hi Kim... your question is a reasonable one... I've been away for a couple of days and came back to this. The term that is preferred is "lesbians and gay men", not "lesbians and gays". But the best index placement would, imo, be terms for "lesbians" and "gay men", since "lesbians and gay men" becomes harder to find for persons who are gay men or oriented to gay men. I wrote an essay entitled "A Place in the Index: Gender and Sexual Orientation as Issues in Indexing History," which is published in the recent collection "Indexing Specialties: History," by ASI. I cover the questions of why and how we as indexers must be attentive to current preferred terms for complex social issues. Although my examples are specific to gender and sexual orientation, my arguments and suggestions for process are about careful language usage in indexing in general. "Sexual orientation" is an excellent entry that covers many references to sexuality. The term "homosexuality" is still a useful main entry in texts on sexuality, but it has specific uses, usually to x-ref out to "lesbians" and "gay men" and "bisexuals" or "bisexuality". As noted, "Homosexual relations" can also be useful in certain contexts. "Homosexuals", per se, has been being phased out because it poses as a cultural referent when it is not. "Lesbians" and "gay men" describe cultures and people. About the only time I hear the term "homosexuals" used by gay men, lesbians, or bisexuals is when we are camping mainstream culture. (Camp: a type of humor.) The APA style manual has an excellent section on the use of language for complex social issues. We as indexers, however, also must continue to x-ref from concurrently-used-but-not-preferred terms to the preferred term in the index, in order to maintain index accessibility. And note that "preferred term" frequently is simply the term used in the text, in cases where only one term has been used throughout. Indexers have choices when synonyms are used, consequently sometimes we must x-ref from a known socially preferred term to the term used in the text. Lastly, the term "political correctness" was once used by the left as a specific kind of critique of the left. It has been used and abused in so many ways since then that the original meaning has been lost. Indexers would do well to think in terms of sensitivity to labels rather than "PC." Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:07:15 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan MacDougall Subject: Re: Oriental Dear Indexers, Another voice about geographic terms from the Australian viewpoint: We tend to use "Asia" for Asia generally, "East Asia" for China/Japan/Korea, "South Asia" for the Indian continent, and "Southeast Asia" for Indonesia/Malaysia/Thailand/Burma etc. It is obvious that "Far East" just doesn't apply from here! Cheers, Susan MacDougall """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Susan MacDougall, MA, AALIA, MACS Indexer/librarian Treasurer, ALIA Asia and Pacific Special Interest Group Editor, East Asian Library Resources Group of Australia (EALRGA) Editor, ALIA Bibliographies on Disk ph (+61 2) 6254 1108 susan.macdougall@alianet.alia.org.au """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:07:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Political correctness - Victoria Victoria Thank you. Perhaps there won't be a ref to 'lesbians' or 'gays' in this year's annual report! Also, a lot of gay women don't like the word 'Lesbian'. You can't please all the people... Best wishes Kim (Kim Harris) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:12:53 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Far East On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Alan Walker wrote: > There is also a tendency to use the term "Near North" for what Europeans > (used to?) call the "Far East". This is of course a deliberate political > ploy to correct Eurocentrism. We Europeans do still use the term "Far East" - the "Far Eastern Economic Review" is a well-respected weekly publication that I sometimes refer to. Although "Asia" is also used of course. But what term do politically correct or Americocentric (is there such a word?) Americans use to refer to this part of the world? Is it "Very Far East" or "Near West"? :-) Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:05:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Political correctness - Pam Rider In-Reply-To: <199807262329.QAA28652@decibel.electriciti.com> At 07:23 PM 7/26/98 EDT, you wrote: >I'm also not sure if 'dumbing-down' is a precise or helpful use of language. > You are correct. I wrote what I believe, but I DO apologize to the list. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:48:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Nedrow Subject: Re: Political correctness--Latino/Hispanic "Anyone have to flip flop between Hispanics or Latinos in indexing?" Yes, I have seen both terms used. I generally stick with the term that is used in the text, making cross references as seems to be appropriate (when I think that someone might look under another term and when that term seems to merit either a "see" or a "see also" reference). I have indexed publications that made distinctions among such terms, so that the terms were not interchangeable. In those cases, the choice of terms for the index was a matter of using the most precise term as reflected in the author's choice for a particular section of the text. The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition, has some interesting usage notes on words that refer to persons who trace their origins to Spanish- speaking countries or cultures (Chicano, Hispanic, Latino, Spanish American). The dictionary states that Hispanic is arguably the broadest of these terms, encompassing all Spanish- speaking persons in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common demoninator of language... The dictionary also states that Latino is favored among many as a term of greater ethnic pride, and that Chicano may suggest ethnic pride in one region of the United States, while elsewhere it may be seen as derogatory. Has anyone out there located additional resources for distinguishing among these terms? Sue Nedrow ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:08:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807270400.XAA05046@mixcom.mixcom.com> Victoria Baker wrote: >Lastly, the term "political correctness" was once used by the left as a >specific kind of critique of the left. It has been used and abused in so >many ways since then that the original meaning has been lost. Indexers >would do well to think in terms of sensitivity to labels rather than "PC." Quite right, but "PC" does have its uses. Let's not rule out the possibility of using it in the political sense, precisely when you *mean* to cast doubt on others' motives. Suppose, for example, a politician gives a speech in which she refers to short people as "vertically challenged." If I suspect her of having purely political motives (rather than of being sensitive to short people), then saying, "She's too sensitive for my taste" won't express what I'm thinking nearly as well as "She's too PC for my taste." I could, of course, be wrong about her motives, but I should use the term that best expresses what I think. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:25:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Continuing to be Curmudgeon In-Reply-To: <199807271558.IAA15511@decibel.electriciti.com> At 10:08 AM 7/27/98 -0500, Carol wrote about: vertically challenged, which is funny, but closer to a straw horse. Do people *really* use this or is it an invented example for exaggeration. The folks I know who are short--many in my family otherwise average--recognize certain access difficulties, but expect to be labeled short. Terms such as "other abled" are probably closer to Carol's intention. People who are well brought up and good intentioned would use the PC label. I would select another expression. I guess I'm unkind, but my consideration of someone who would say (seriously) vertically challenged would be much simpler--I might not repeat it out loud, but would think of them as a dope. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: vertical challenge Not for the first time: I do *partially* take back "dope." As I recall the former Labor Secretary gnome of the current USA political administration, has--I recall--jokingly used the term in self-description. I forget his name--he's not a dope and has a wonderful sense of humor. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: vertical challenge His name is Robert Reich, and he does, indeed, have a wonderful sense of humor, especially about himself! He recently published a book about his tenure as Labor Secretary that is, apparently, quite a good read for us political junkies! (I haven't read it yet, but it's on my list!) Incidentally, I have been following this thread with some interest because the subject comes up fairly frequently with our code indexes. We have seen virtually all of the possible terms-- some that you would not imagine showing up in a legal code!-- in the text of acts, the statutes themselves and in some of the indexes (we inherited a bunch from other companies). If people were offended (or concerned about offending) by the indexing of material on homosexuality under "homosexuals" instead of the more preferred terms, I wonder how they would react to a situation I recently discovered in one of our inherited indexes? All of the information on paternity testing (blood and genetic), adoption of "fatherless" children and legitimization of children born out of wedlock was all treated under the main heading BASTARDS. Yep, that's it. Some cross-referencing, but not a lot. Needless to say, it won't still be there when the next edition comes out! It's all a matter of perspective... :-) -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:42:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: vertical challenge In-Reply-To: <199807271718.KAA01155@ixmail8.ix.netcom.com> At 10:13 AM 7/27/98 -0700, you wrote: >Not for the first time: I do *partially* take back "dope." As I recall the >former Labor Secretary gnome of the current USA political administration, >has--I recall--jokingly used the term in self-description. I forget his >name--he's not a dope and has a wonderful sense of humor. >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > This I can relate to, especially those who met me at the Seattle conference. Though I remember the term being "vertically challenged". Being just under 5 feet tall, the term aptly describes me and others who are used to looking up at everyone else. Someday my daughter, now barely less than a foot shorter than me, will be looking down on me too! Just remember when using the term there are people who fit the description. Linda Kenny Sloan indexer@ix.netcom.com ******************************************* Information Universe Editorial services for the aerospace and astronomy communities http://informationuniverse ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:54:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Political correctness - Victoria In-Reply-To: <199807270908.CAA01925@pacific.net> Kim wrote: >Also, a lot of gay women don't like the word 'Lesbian'. You can't please all >the people... Yes this is so. The point about preferred usages is that they reflect the changing self-conception of groups. Not all individuals who might be a part of a given group agree with the majority movement on labeling. This is why x-refs in indexes are so essential, to move people from their first entry point to the actual entry. The underlying and as-yet unspoken truth here is that how people are labeled does affect how they are perceived, and groups/peoples have the right to self-label. Thus the importance of sensitivity to labels. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:45:39 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Moira Greenhalgh Subject: eurocentric language meets the X-files http://www-oi.uchicago.edu Author index to Oriental Institute Research Archives begins *This is an author index to resources relevant to the study and presentation of the Ancient Near East. It includes, in general, only documents for which a human author is listed. A number of other resources, where authorship is less clear, can be found in the Project index* Moira (human) moiracg@dialin.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:03:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807271553.IAA20005@pacific.net> Carol quoted me and responded: >Victoria Baker wrote: > >>Lastly, the term "political correctness" was once used by the left as a >>specific kind of critique of the left. It has been used and abused in so >>many ways since then that the original meaning has been lost. Indexers >>would do well to think in terms of sensitivity to labels rather than "PC." > >Quite right, but "PC" does have its uses. Let's not rule out the >possibility of using it in the political sense, precisely when you *mean* >to cast doubt on others' motives. Suppose, for example, a politician gives >a speech in which she refers to short people as "vertically challenged." If >I suspect her of having purely political motives (rather than of being >sensitive to short people), then saying, "She's too sensitive for my taste" >won't express what I'm thinking nearly as well as "She's too PC for my >taste." I could, of course, be wrong about her motives, but I should use >the term that best expresses what I think. Undeniably, but I don't see that indexers, in our work lives, have a use for a knee-jerk fear of sensitivity to labeling, which is how the term "PC" has been popularized. I would add that it has been very difficult for me to continue to post under this subject heading, as I do not believe it is the appropriate term for what we are discussing. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:22:14 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Email Test and a small thought on PC I've thought about it and Between you and me I'm kinda confused about this PC I thought it a muscle Useful though wee Handy in cases where you have to pee, see? Just couldn't resist. With apologies, Vicki Birchfield Kalesis Information Systems vbirchfield@kalesis.com Voice: (206) 524-2026 Fax: (206) 524-3044 If you can't read this, thank Microsoft. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:41:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael L. Olason" Subject: Re: NATURALLY SPEAKING Dick...I do index a lot of computer books and science books. When I come to those kind of terms, I will type those terms into the same file I'm building with Naturally Speaking, then continue dictation. I will also do this when I come to personal names. If I want those terms or names to be in my dictionaries, then I use Naturally Speaking and add them to the dictionaries. David...what I meant to convey is that I use Naturally Speaking to create the tab-delinated file to read into Cindex. I dictate TAB-KEY between main entries and subentries and page references, then NEW LINE to end the entry. Another feature of Naturally Speaking is that you can create SHORTCUTS. So if you have an involved term, you can train Naturally Speaking to recognize a shortened dictation version of the term. You then dictate the short version, and Naturally Speaking will input the longer version of the term into the file you are building. Susan Indexes & Knowledge Maps oleduke@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:24:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Please tell me... ...as I am new to indexing: How did you get your first indexing job? The more input the better, as I'm trying to determine the best way to find my first job. If you don't want to send your answer to the list, please send it to my email address: Karen_Field@intuit.com. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:27:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Darci Balius Subject: CD-ROM indexing Hi all-- I am exploring the new directions that the indexing profession is taking. Has anyone out there created a CD-ROM index? What was your process? What tools did you use? Please respond to me privately, and I will compile the results and post them to the list at a later date. Thanks Darci Balius darcib@sakson.com Sakson & Taylor voice 208.853.0335 fax 208.853.0226 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:32:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Labels I've just been reminded of another label: Native Americans. All American Indians I've seen or heard or met lately seem to prefer the name "Indians" over "Native Americans." I will use the latter in my current index because that is how it appears in the text. I'd be interested in the observations of others. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Labels That has been my experience, too, although I don't think that many are actually offended by either term. "Indians" does seem to be preferred, however. -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Brown [SMTP:lastword@I1.NET] > Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 5:33 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Labels > > I've just been reminded of another label: Native Americans. All American > Indians I've seen or heard or met lately seem to prefer the name > "Indians" over "Native Americans." I will use the latter in my current > index because that is how it appears in the text. > > I'd be interested in the observations of others. > > Craig Brown > > ========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword > ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:52:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Labels In-Reply-To: <199807272134.RAA27004@mail1.bellsouth.net> As it happens, I have several long-time Navajo friends out around Tuba City (mostly teachers and writers), and they just snort and roll their eyes when someone refers to them as "Native Americans." They say they prefer "Indians" because it's a reminder of just how screwed up Columbus's geography was.... But I think their favorite was a reference by an academic anthropologist (in a recent newspaper interview) to "aboriginal inhabitants"; that really brought down the house! Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Craig Brown > Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 4:33 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Labels > > > I've just been reminded of another label: Native Americans. All American > Indians I've seen or heard or met lately seem to prefer the name > "Indians" over "Native Americans." I will use the latter in my current > index because that is how it appears in the text. > > I'd be interested in the observations of others. > > Craig Brown > > ========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword > ========================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:42:08 +1000 Reply-To: Diagonal@onaustralia.com.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Politiical correctness - Australian Aboriginal people and Orient/Occident Most of my need for thought about the terminology used to describe people has been in books about Aborigines. I indexed a book on Aboriginal health years ago. I think it was after I had submitted the index that the managing editor phoned and said that the Aboriginal editors rejected the idea of full bloods and half castes (as we are all of mixed blood). The concepts were discussed in the book and had to be indexed, so the solution was to put 'full blood' in inverted commas, and to refer from half caste to mixed descent Aboriginals. Recently I indexed a book on management (from a postmodernist perspective). The first index entry was Aboriginals. The author had had an argument with the editor over the format of this word in the book: he kept writing Aborigines, and she kept changing it (to fit company style) to Aboriginals. He requested me to put a reference from one to the other, giving: Aboriginals, see Aborigines Aborigines 10, 15 in an attempt to please the editor and satisfy his own preferences. I couldn't do this, but was quite happy to change it to Aborigines (my own preference anyway). In thesaurus construction the choice of words to describe groups of people is only one part of it: the choice of concepts to be included is equally (or more?) important. Years ago Heather Moorcroft from the Northern Territory wrote an article in the Australian Library Journal about terminology relating to Aboriginal people in Library of Congress Subject Headings (used in most library catalogues). She asked Aboriginal people what they thought of terms in LCSH and what terms they thought should be added. I wish I could remember the details, but it was interesting that while LCSH contained anthropologically relevant terms, the Aboriginal people chose terms which were more practical, and related to their lives today (I can only remember "land rights" as an example). Other terms showed a different approach to history - from memory the Aborigines suggested the addition of a term for Massacres. In theory terms which are needed should be added to LCSH as the books on those subjects are published. In practice, books may be catalogued under the closest available term, even though it might not seem appropriate to the group of people involved. With respect to the choice of Asian or Oriental - to me Oriental sounds very old-fashioned. But Oriental/Occidental follow just the same principle as the East and the West. Is this usage considered undesirably Europe-centric or is it so ingrained that we all accept it? Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:26:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nickel, Joyce" Subject: Re: Labels Here in Canada, this is a touchy subject. Depending on the context, "Indians" is pretty much a no-no. To be safe, the correct term is "First Nations People". Also, "Eskimo" is offensive; the correct term is "Inuit". PC and sensitivity about language certainly keeps things interesting. -----Original Message----- From: Craig Brown [SMTP:lastword@I1.NET] Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 2:33 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Labels I've just been reminded of another label: Native Americans. All American Indians I've seen or heard or met lately seem to prefer the name "Indians" over "Native Americans." I will use the latter in my current index because that is how it appears in the text. I'd be interested in the observations of others. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:31:50 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Labels At 01:30 PM 27/07/98 -0400, Sharon Wright wrote: >All of the information on paternity testing >(blood and genetic), adoption of "fatherless" children and legitimization of >children born out of wedlock was all treated under the main heading >BASTARDS. Yep, that's it. Some cross-referencing, but not a lot. Needless >to say, it won't still be there when the next edition comes out! > >It's all a matter of perspective... :-) Here is a similar real life example of varying prespectives. I once indexed a Law Reform Commission report on De Facto Relationships. A learned judge objected to the title of the report ("an unfortunate neologism") and suggested: "Why don't we call them 'concubines'? That's what they are." We didn't. Alan -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:43:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Labels In-Reply-To: <199807272235.PAA04097@pacific.net> Joyce wrote: >Here in Canada, this is a touchy subject. Depending on the context, >"Indians" is pretty much a no-no. To be safe, the correct term is >"First Nations People". Also, "Eskimo" is offensive; the correct term is >"Inuit". Actually I know of at least one group of Eskimos who choose to continue to be known as such. In anthropologies, this distinction becomes relevant. In more general social texts, the distinction is usually subsumed in favor of "Inuit". This is the area of concern called specificity. How differentiated the larger terms become is dictated by the level of detail of the text. In non-Canadian North American writing, "Native Americans" is usually the term preferred for general social texts, in which Native Americans may be described along with Asian Americans, African Americans, Latinos, Whites, and so on. However, in an anthropology about a specific American Indian group or practice, "American Indians" or "Indians" may be the texually preferred entry. Here a cross-reference from Native Americans is required. This again refers to specificity. Specificity also relates to context or point of view. For example, in a general social text, say on human sexuality, the general context is one in which the academy looks at many various groups in relation to sexuality. In an anthropology on the Sioux sweat lodge (btw, itself a contested term), the point of view might be situated well within the Indian culture. These contexts change the terms that are used and determine the level of specificity. Btw, my article, which I mentioned previously, addresses three concepts that underlie my word choice and overall organization of indexes: sensitivity to labels, specificity, and point of view. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:43:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Labels Surprise! I was thinking of posting the same comment but feared the discussion was getting out of hand. My sole source of this wisdom is a producer of "Smoke Signals" while being interviewed on the Charlie Rose show. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:16:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kai Wyrill Subject: Was: Labels . . . Now: Gripe I can't always read my mail promptly, or in order, and sometimes delete when I'm short of time, so this kind of post: "...I was thinking of posting the same comment..." leaves me wondering, "What comment?" It must have been in one of the posts I deleted or haven't gotten too, yet. Aack! Of course, the remainder of the post did give some interesting information, i.e., the name of a movie? play? ("Smoke Signals") whose producer was interviewed on Charlie Rose (so I can go to the PBS site and, perhaps, find more info on that). This "me too" aspect of some posts is as frustrating to me as those that repeat every single thing, including headers and footers... Sorry, it's Monday. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:46:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: Was: Labels . . . Now: Gripe In-Reply-To: <199807280024.TAA0000019022@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Kai Wyrill wrote: > Of course, the remainder of the post did give some interesting information, > i.e., the name of a movie? play? ("Smoke Signals") whose producer was > interviewed on Charlie Rose (so I can go to the PBS site and, perhaps, find > more info on that). Isn't the writer Sherman Alexie behind the movie "Smoke Signals"? I'm not sure if his title is producer, but I know he's one of the, if not the, creative force behind the movie. Tom Dean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:57:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: vertical challenge In-Reply-To: <199807271741.NAA25202@camel9.mindspring.com> At 10:42 AM 27-07-98 -0700, Linda Kenny Sloan wrote: >Being just under 5 feet tall, the term aptly describes me and others who are used to looking up at everyone else. Someday my daughter, now barely less than a foot shorter than me, will be looking down on me too! My step-daughter, who lives on the other coast, came for a visit when she was seventeen. Although we'd spoken, I hadn't seen her in two years. We were in the kitchen making dinner. She wanted something from the top shelf and, from habit, asked me to get it down for her. Me: "Colette, you're taller than I am." Her: "Oh. Yeah." Cheers, Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:22:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: How did you get your first indexing job? (Formerly "Pleas... Subject: How did you get your first indexing job? (Formerly "Please tell me...") My apologies to those of you who have read this, and thanks to those who have already replied. But more than one person took the time to tell me that my first subject heading wasn't very effective and that many people may have deleted the message based on the subject heading alone, so here we are. How did you get your first indexing job? The more input the better, as I'm trying to determine the best way to find my first job. Per request, I'll also compile the responses and send them to the list. So far, they're diverse and interesting. If you don't want to send your answer to the list, please send it to my email address: Karen_Field@intuit.com. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:44:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beverly Schane Subject: Re: How did you get your first indexing job? (Formerly "Pleas... Please post responses. I'm a newbie, too, and am eager to hear responses. Thanks. Beverly ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:15:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Apropos of nothing whatever... In-Reply-To: <199807280226.WAA06694@mail3.bellsouth.net> Okay, so it has nothing to do with indexing (mea culpa), but this is a neat riposte I wanted to share with the group... One of my non-indexers correspondents has finally gotten fed up with unsolicited email and has added the following caveat to her web page: Please note that I do NOT want commercial email sent to this address; any unsolicited commercial email will be subject to a $1500 editing fee. Sending mail to this address, manually or automatically, will be interpreted as explicit consent to these terms. Now, *that's* a killer line! Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Karen Field > Sent: Monday, July 27, 1998 8:22 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: How did you get your first indexing job? (Formerly "Pleas... > > > Subject: How did you get your first indexing job? (Formerly > "Please tell me...") > > My apologies to those of you who have read this, and thanks to > those who have > already replied. But more than one person took the time to tell > me that my > first subject heading wasn't very effective and that many people may have > deleted the message based on the subject heading alone, so here we are. > > How did you get your first indexing job? The more input the better, as I'm > trying to determine the best way to find my first job. Per > request, I'll also > compile the responses and send them to the list. So far, they're > diverse and > interesting. > > If you don't want to send your answer to the list, please send it > to my email > address: Karen_Field@intuit.com. > > Thanks! > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:25:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: Political correctness Some years ago I indexed an "in-depth analysis" of an Australian medical TV soap, "A Country Practice" for the major Australian publisher of material on the performing arts. The book paid a lot of attention to the various social issues that the series covered. One social issue that was the focus of an entire program, and was covered in the book in quite a lot of detail, was homosexuality, which of course I indexed. Another issue that the producers considered was AIDS, although they never actually made a program about it, and although it received only a brief mention in the book I indexed it anyway. Without telling me, the publisher deleted the entry for "homosexuality" but left in the entry for "AIDS". After I saw the published book, I rang the publisher, pointing out that the book contained a lengthy analysis of the program that concerned homosexuality and had generated a lot of discussion when it was shown, but only mentioned briefly the program on AIDS which anyway had never actually been made or broadcast. She told me that she had deleted the entry because homosexuality was an unimportant issue and that readers would not be interested in it, but that AIDS was an important issue and that readers would be interested. I was incensed that my index should have been "censored" to reflect the views of the publisher when those views were clearly not shared by the authors of the book, particularly since at that time almost nothing had been written in the Australian mainstream about the coverage of homosexuality in the popular media. In recent issues of "The Indexer" there has been some discussion of the topic of the "moral rights" of the indexer. This is a new concept to me, and appears to be a British thing. Can anyone explain to me what it is? Is it relevant to the "censoring" of indexes without reference to the indexer? Does it have the force of law? Is there an equivalent in Australia or the US? Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:06:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807280530.WAA20258@pacific.net> Michael wrote: Without telling me, the publisher deleted the entry for >"homosexuality" but left in the entry for "AIDS". After I saw the published >book, I rang the publisher, pointing out that the book contained a lengthy >analysis of the program that concerned homosexuality and had generated a lot >of discussion when it was shown, but only mentioned briefly the program on >AIDS which anyway had never actually been made or broadcast. She told me >that she had deleted the entry because homosexuality was an unimportant >issue and that readers would not be interested in it, but that AIDS was an >important issue and that readers would be interested. I was incensed that my >index should have been "censored" to reflect the views of the publisher when >those views were clearly not shared by the authors of the book, particularly >since at that time almost nothing had been written in the Australian >mainstream about the coverage of homosexuality in the popular media. I don't have the answers to the questions you later asked in your post, but I can certainly testify to having been told to remove certain entries because a topic wasn't "important" in a book. One of them was an index entry for animals, the ways non-human animals have been a part of society, for an 8th-grade U.S. History textbook. I thought since the information was there, it should be indexed. The editor thought differently. In contrast, in the essay to which I have referred a couple of times in my posts on this subject, I related (with her permission) the following story which happened to Margie Towery: "She was asked to re-index a book; the first index had been rejected by the author because the indexer had been unequal in his treatment of issues. An instance of this is that on a page in which anal sex was discussed in terms of both heterosexuals and homosexuals, he had indexed only the references to homosexuals." ("A Place in the Index: Gender and Sexual Orientation as Issues in Indexing History," in ^Indexing Specialties: History,^ Margie Towery, ed., published through ASI, 1998, p. 50) Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:46:44 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Moira Greenhalgh Subject: political correctness meets the X-files >From earlier >Moira (human) An apology. I should like to make it clear that by asserting my humanity in an earlier post, I did not mean to imply any disrespect for different lifeforms who may be members of this list, whether carbon- or otherly-based. And my use of the word *lifeforms* above, was not intended to demonstrate a judgmental attitude towards any undead or vitally-challenged amongst us. Moira moiracg@dialin.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:17:48 +0930 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Amyot, Renee (CAA)" Subject: Moral rights Moral rights of an author relate to attribution (the right to be recognised as the author of a work, and the right not to have authorship falsely attributed) and integrity (protection from modification of a work which may harm, or in some way be detrimental to, the author's standing or reputation). Moral rights exist independently of economic rights (ie. copyright) and cannot be transferred or sold. Moral rights have not been protected under the Copyright Act 1968 - rights of attribution under s.190 of the Act were tied to copyright. However, Parliament has recently passed the Copyright Amendment Act 1998, which includes protection of the moral rights of authors. See the website of the Australian Copyright Council at: http://www.copyright.org.au for more information or contact them directly. They should be able advise you on the implications for indexers. Regards Renee ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Renee Amyot phone: Int'l+ 61 8 8204 0437 Reference Librarian fax: Int'l+ 61 8 8204 0461 Supreme Court Library 1 Gouger Street email: renee.amyot@courts.sa.gov.au Adelaide, South Australia ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:18:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Labels - Inuits etc Human rights books use the term 'indigenous people'. Kim (KIm - what did I start! - Harris) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:23:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: political correctness meets the X-files Right on, sister! (Which is not non-inclusive of brothers or any other type of familial relationship or, indeed, those in non-familial relationships or those in no relationships whatsoever). Kim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Munro Subject: How did you get your first indexing job? (Formerly "Pleas... I identified all the medium-to-large sized publishers in UK who produce books in my specialisations (aviation, defence, nautical, transport, philosophy) from' The Publishers Directory' (about 100). I then wrote a speculatuive letter (one side of A4) to each of them, having found out th= e name of the general/non-fiction editor. The letter was on headed paper (= RM Editorial Services) and I emphasised that my 'added value' was that I tur= n round indexes very quickly and accurately (by the way, I do!). This is important at this time of year when publishers know that many authors and= associated specialists are on vacation and they need to get their books o= n the September lists. I gave phone, fax and e-mail numbers (the latter a 'must' nowadays). I then waited . . . Out of the blue I got a call at 7pm one evening from the Managing Editor = of a large House asking me to produce an index in 7 days time. She would po= st the proofs that evening to get to me the following day. She intimated th= at it was urgent: could I do it? I said 'Yes!' as it was right up my street= =2E = I then pushed all other work out of the way and duly produced the index t= o specification (6 pages hard copy with Word v6 disk and e-mail file transf= er back-up on a 300 page autobiography of a famous contemporary sailor). Mo= st importantly - I produced it on time :) I loved it; I was on my way; I want lots more! Tips: 1. Always write to publishers as though they are the only one you ar= e interested in (no-one likes circulars) 2. Be prepared to make pretty instant decisions - but only accept commissions that you know you can fulfil on time and to the required degr= ee of accuracy and expertise (I have turned down one or two because I know that I am not expert enough in the subject matter) 3. The three key principles of indexing: Punctuality, Punctuality, Punctuality. Love to hear anyone else's experiences. Richard Munro RM Editorial Servicves Tel/Fax +44 1359 271101 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:26:07 +0930 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Amyot, Renee (CAA)" Subject: moral rights (cont'd) Further to my previous post, may I sheepishly add a correction - the moral rights provisions do not appear to have been passed along with the rest of amendments to the Copyright Act. Again, the Copyright Council can explain it all to you. Apologies Renee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:38:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: choosing publishers to market to I'm curious...when contacting publishers for work, why contact those that publish a lot of indexable books? I would think that the smaller publishers would not have an in-house indexer, and therefore would need a freelancer. Sorry if this is a stupid question that I have overlooked the answer to! -- Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:52:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brave, Claudia" Subject: Re: Labels I can confirm the 'Indian' over 'Native American' name in my personal experience. My husband is a mix of several Alaskan tribes and a bit of Irish. He pretty much doesn't really care, but if asked to choose, will pick 'Indian'. Also he can't figure out the objection to naming sports teams 'Braves' or 'Indians'. After all, you wouldn't name your team after something you don't like. But he can see where 'Redskins' and the Cleveland logo may bother some people. Though, not being a sports fan, he really doesn't mind either because he doesn't come into contact with it. We get all kinds of funny comments since our last name is Brave and I work for Ted. His opinion is that it is the context of the way the name is used. Even a compliment can become an insult if given the wrong way. Claudia Brave CNN Library Claudia.Brave@turner.com ____________________________________________________________________________ ___ Subject: Labels From: "Craig Brown" [SMTP:lastword@I1.NET] at TBSCENTRAL Date: 7/27/98 5:32 PM I've just been reminded of another label: Native Americans. All American Indians I've seen or heard or met lately seem to prefer the name "Indians" over "Native Americans." I will use the latter in my current index because that is how it appears in the text. I'd be interested in the observations of others. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:12:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Hayes Subject: Re: Political correctness In-Reply-To: <199807280533.BAA07381@smtp03.kent.edu> Out of curiousity, as I am new to indexing (still a student) and have never entered business dealings to index anything, how much leverage does and indexer have over the end product? That is, I know the work of an indexer is considered a creation the ownership of which rests solely with that indexer, so CAN it be altered by the publisher without consent? I realize the assumption I am making is somewhat naive, in that as a professional indexer you could seriously compromise your interests by being difficult; but, ultimately, does an indexer have the right to refuse to have an index published the contents of which having been compromised? Tom Hayes thayes2@kent.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:28:13 -0400 Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Organization: Broccoli Information Management Subject: Re: Political correctness Thomas Hayes wrote: > Out of curiousity, as I am new to indexing (still a student) and have > never entered business dealings to index anything, how much leverage does > and indexer have over the end product? > > That is, I know the work of an indexer is considered a creation the > ownership of which rests solely with that indexer, so CAN it be altered by > the publisher without consent? I realize the assumption I am making is > somewhat naive, in that as a professional indexer you could seriously > compromise your interests by being difficult; but, ultimately, does an > indexer have the right to refuse to have an index published the contents > of which having been compromised? > > Tom Hayes > thayes2@kent.edu Actually, usually the ownership of the index is transferred to the publisher. THEY now own it and there is not much an indexer can do once the index is out of his/her hands. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:20:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Political correctness Thomas: Maybe I am wrong, but you are virtually invisible to the reading public. Also, the publisher should have the right to change the index in case he/she needs to make it fit, if it is too short, etc. Finally, my feeling is that unless you are getting a credit in the book AND you are getting paid for the work, then should you care as much as you imply? I am not trying to be cynical, but some of these index jobs are just that -- jobs. Nothing more. Some approach the level art, true, but how many? rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:07:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: vertical challenge In-Reply-To: <199807280415.XAA04702@mixcom.mixcom.com> >vertically challenged, which is funny, but closer to a straw horse. Do >people *really* use this or is it an invented example for exaggeration. The >folks I know who are short--many in my family otherwise average--recognize >certain access difficulties, but expect to be labeled short. Terms such as >"other abled" are probably closer to Carol's intention. People who are well >brought up and good intentioned would use the PC label. I would select >another expression. > >I guess I'm unkind, but my consideration of someone who would say >(seriously) vertically challenged would be much simpler--I might not repeat >it out loud, but would think of them as a dope. Pam, you missed my point. The particular example is irrelevant. Pick any example you want. My point was that if I do, in fact, suspect someone of having purely political motives in using a euphemism, then "PC" is a perfectly apt term for describing the person's behavior, and "sensitive" isn't. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:31:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eileen Lutzow Subject: How does "Oz" relate to Australia? This has nothing to do with indexing, but since we're talking about labels and terminology, I'll risk asking. I've heard the term "Oz" used in reference to Australia several times in the last few weeks, on this list and elsewhere, and I haven't a clue as to how the two relate. Could some kind soul please explain? Reply to me personally if you prefer. Thanks! Eileen Lutzow Charleston, SC, USA lutzowe@charleston.lib.in.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:53:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: How does "Oz" relate to Australia? In-Reply-To: <199807281431.KAA29546@mail4.bellsouth.net> Pronounce "Aussi" with a 'Z' (as they mostly do) and it comes out more like "Ozzie" -- or "Oz." Also, Oz was a wonderous, enchanted land, right? So (they say) is Australia. BTW, I'm told that the language they speak Down Under is actually Strine... (Pronounce it with a long 'I'.) Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Eileen Lutzow > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 9:32 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: How does "Oz" relate to Australia? > > > This has nothing to do with indexing, but since we're talking about labels > and terminology, I'll risk asking. I've heard the term "Oz" used in > reference to Australia several times in the last few weeks, on > this list and > elsewhere, and I haven't a clue as to how the two relate. Could some kind > soul please explain? Reply to me personally if you prefer. > > Thanks! > > Eileen Lutzow > Charleston, SC, USA > lutzowe@charleston.lib.in.us > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:01:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: choosing publishers to market to At 08:38 AM 7/28/1998 -0400, Kari Miller wrote: >I'm curious...when contacting publishers for work, why contact those >that publish a lot of indexable books? I would think that the smaller >publishers would not have an in-house indexer, and therefore would need >a freelancer. In my experience, nearly as many large publishers hire freelancers as do small ones; and also in my experience, large one pay more promptly and with less chance of going under a week from Tuesday. Virtually my only experience with slow-pay, no-pay clients (mostly for editing, BTW) has been with small publishers. Therefore, I rarely do business with companies that put out less than, say, ten books a year. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:31:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: How did you get your first indexing job? (Formerly "Pleas... Karen Field wrote: > How did you get your first indexing job? The more input the better, as I'm > trying to determine the best way to find my first job. Per request, I'll also > compile the responses and send them to the list. So far, they're diverse and > interesting. I chose out of Literary Marketplace publishers who specialized in areas in which I had interests and expertise. Then I started making phone calls. I would ask whom I should speak to about indexing, and when transferred to that person (or more commonly, their voicemail), I asked whether they used freelancers. If they did, they were happy to tell me how to submit my resume, and whether they had any special requirements about my indexing sample (one wanted it in manuscript form, for instance.) In a few cases, they said they were looking for someone; could I fax my resume and sample? I did, and one of those called me back. The process, from researching publishers to first assignment, took about 2 months -- but I was calling for several hours every day, and I talked to over 150 firms and sent out about 50 resumes before I got that first job. I still suspect I got it because they were desperate -- but I got it, and that was enough to get me started. Persistence pays off! I forgot to say -- I rehearsed before I started calling, and I had a script which I revised as I got more experienced in calling. The first few calls I made were awful, but I got better with practice! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:11:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Heat Wave: How do you cope? Hi all- Do any of you who work in home offices without air conditioning have any tips to pass along on beating the heat? Until about a week ago, the Pacific Northwest was a bastion of mild and pleasant weather but we've now joined the rest of the country. I know it's nothing like those of you in the Southwest and especially in Texas are going through and it is a dry heat, not the muggy steamy heat of the midwest and east coast. But hot is hot! My computer doesn't like hot weather and began doing some very strange things. In the interests of not losing the index I'm working on and being able to work at the computer for longer stretches of time, I decided to move the system down to the basement. Yesterday afternoon was spent cleaning an area in the basement and putting together what appeared to be a workable temporary work station. In the process I nearly choked my cat to death. His little face suddenly appeared between the couch and the bookcase just as I was shoving the side of the couch into place beside the bookcase. He made choking noises; I screamed and pulled the couch back and immediately picked him up. He seems to be OK and received lots and lots of TLC and Big Hugs the rest of the afternoon. But I will probably have nightmares for a while. However, after cleaning the basement, nearly killing my cat, moving the computer downstairs and getting it all hooked up and running again, and resolving problems that cropped up about the telephone cord and a glare on the screen, I sat down to the keyboard and mouse and realized after trying for a while that it just wasn't going to work. So, about 10:30 last night I moved everything back upstairs again. I'm now back in my office and will just have to figure out a way to live with the temperature. I think I can work something out with the fans I have that may work a little better than before. And the weather is supposed to be cooler next week. And, I know now that it just doesn't work in the basement. I just really felt uncomfortable, and, even though the work station downstairs was bigger than my desk surface upstairs, I had less space to spread out on. So, today I'll dig back into the index again. And I will not be distracted by wondering if I should try to move down to the basement. Been there, done that! Do others of you have any similar experiences or tips to pass along? Shortly after the couch/cat episode I got a call from a publisher who was on my marketing mailing list from several months ago. They want me to do an index for them so I will be doing back-to-back indexing. Marketing does pay off! So, yesterday wasn't all bad, disappointing, and almost tragic afterall! Cheers - Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:20:16 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: How does "Oz" relate to Australia? I thought it referred to Old Zealand to complement its neighbor. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:58:54 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? Hints to beat the dry heat (often 100 to 110 degrees in the summer): 1. Wear a wet shirt. 2. Keep your head wet. Use a spray bottle. 3. Keep a fan on the computer--very hard to do without causing papers to fly. 4. Get up early in the morning, and work until about 3 pm. Keep the house closed up, to keep in the cool. By the time it gets unbearable, you've put in a good day. After 11 years of that, we moved to the coast, where, when everyone else is seething in the heat, it's 65 degrees or so. The only drawback is that in the summer one doesn't see the sun much. Whenever it's hot inland, it's foggy here. Our "heat wave" comes in June and September--but even that is low-key. Visitors always ask how to turn on the air conditioning, and we tell them to open the window. Elinor Lindheimer Mendocino, CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? Lillian, for years I used a dot matrix printer that refused to work when the temperature got "too hot"--which, for that equipment, seemed to be anything over about 80 degrees. The first line of defense was removing the cover to allow more air circulation. The best method involved taking off the cover AND buying one of those small fans with a clip-on attachment, clipping it to the printer stand, and facing it down into the innards. I wouldn't suggest taking the case off your computer, but you could try anything you can think of to increase air circulation. If it's a tower case, cobble together some sort of small stand to raise it off the ground a few inches. Figure out which air vent is the "intake" and get a clip-on fan that will keep the air moving toward that vent. Most importantly, if you have a cat, DO take off the case regularly and clean out the accumulated cat fur. This acts as insulation to keep the heat in. And if you feel comfortable doing it, buy a couple of additional CPU fans and attach them inside the case, at appropriate points. These are very inexpensive (under $10), but if you don't know how to put them in, call your computer person to do it. A friend who has similar problems with heat buildup swears by these as a real equipment-saver. On a totally frivolous and unrelated note, we "cured" our cat of rheumatoid arthritis by dropping a sofa bed on her! She had been having serious difficulty with getting up...obviously achy and uncomfortable. We took her to the vet, who diagnosed this disease after xrays and such, and wanted to start her on regular cortisone shots. Since she was very young, we were shocked that she had this problem. A few days later, we were moving furniture in the living room and thought we had locked both kitties up safely in another room. Well, we hadn't...and we plunked the sofa bed down on top of this one. When we realized what had happened, we were almost afraid to remove it. I was in tears, and so was my husband. The story has a happy ending, of course. She looked just like a cartoon kittie...squashed flat with arms and legs not even akimbo--just straight out to the sides. And there was a little puddle indicating that we had scared the p**s right out of her. But she was otherwise undamaged...except that from that night onward for the rest of her long life, she never ever had a single sign of arthritis. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:39:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Babbitt Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? Lillian Ashworth wrote: > Hi Lillian -- Elinor's suggestions are all excellent. I also soak a bandanna in water and wear it around my neck until it's dry. Then I soak it again. I also adjust my schedule so that I work from 5-11 p.m. and 8-11 p.m. Or I take a great long nap in the afternoon and put in the bulk of my hours after 5 p.m. A bath (not a shower) at midday also helps. I don't even towel my hair -- I let the evaporating water cool me for as long as it can. I also eat lots of popsicles, but I think the help they offer is psychological rather than actual. Good luck, Kathy Babbitt Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:41:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? At 09:11 AM 7/28/98 -0700, Lillian Ashworth wrote: >Hi all- > >Do any of you who work in home offices without air conditioning have any >tips to pass along on beating the heat? > My office has one window and does not get much of a breeze anyway; this year in the mountains of Virginia, fortunately, we have had very few super hot days (but hey, after living in West Africa for two years where it would get to be 120 degrees F in the shade for weeks on end, I consider 90 degrees to be pretty mild in comparison!). I do have a ceiling fan in my office, and that helps a lot. I have two computers running all the time and a swivel lamp over my desk and computer, so the heat does build up in here. So you might want to think about a ceiling fan... ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:35:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? Try taking off your shoes and socks. It helps. I went barefoot at home most of the time I lived in South Florida. Also, Brookstone has a device called a hydroband. It's like a bandanna. You soak it in water, wring it out a bit, then put it around your forehead. When I picked one up in the store it seemed very cool. Of course, by the time we get done with suggestions, the Pacific Northwest will probably have returned to normal. :) Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 home.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:49:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kai Wyrill Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? Great tips so far. I will add: a large baggie, partially filled with frozen peas, draped around the back of your neck. Keep several handy; they are yucky when they warm up. Also, if you have longish hair, you can tuck an ice cube or two next to your scalp, held in by your hair and a giant grabber clip (don't know the name for them). and {{{{{{{{{{kitty hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}! kai any tips to pass along on beating the heat? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:10:33 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? At the risk of stating the obvious, have you checked the price of central cooling? Here in Portland, Oregon, I was surprised to find that adding central air to a forced-air gas system (using existing ductwork) would cost only $1,500 to $2,500, depending on the space you want to cool. When you consider that a small window unit will cost you around $500--and who knows how much more for an electrician to beef up the circuitry--$2,000 doesn't seem like a lot for a medium-sized home or office...especially when it's 100 degrees outside! --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:15:09 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? Kai Wyrill wrote: > > a large baggie, partially filled with frozen > peas, draped around the back of your neck... > they are yucky when they warm up. Try blueberries! :) --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:46:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: First Indexing job Hi Karen, I approached getting my first job as Kara Pekar did. My luck came when I happened to call a production manager who was gearing up to solicit bids for an index "in a couple weeks." I sent her my package, but heard nothing for five weeks. I called her again, and she said she expected to send out the bid requests soon. I got the request that week and did a sample index and bid letter based on the book in question. I mailed it in. I then made two follow-up calls to keep her aware of how interested I was. I got the job, and I think my calls and genuine interest in the subject matter helped me get it. So, I learned quickly that sending out a bunch of letters and waiting for the phone to ring probably won't get me a job. I follow-up letters with phone calls and send resume updates periodically. -Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:01:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: First Indexing job In-Reply-To: <199807281954.OAA0000021902@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> Hi. I'm someone also very interested in this thread, as I'm considering going into indexing myself. Can anyone also give perspective on doing work for individuals? As an academic, I will have easy access to scholars who individually will have to provide indexes to publishers for their own books. Most of the discussion so far deals with indexing for publishers. My question, I guess, is not so much how to go about getting an indexing job from an individual scholar as much as it is looking for feedback on the ins and outs of doing that--problems, successes, relative lucrativity, etc. Thanks much. Tom Thomas Dean Assistant Professor New Center for Multidisciplinary Studies Moorhead State University 1104 7th Avenue South Moorhead MN 56563 (218)236-2955 FAX (218)236-2168 deantom@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu "The tender land, Where we begin To understand." -- Aaron Copland and Horace Everett, THE TENDER LAND ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:20:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? I hope you're not recommending this as a standard veterinary practice! :-) Poor kitty! -- Sharon W. > From: Sonsie [SMTP:sconroy@SLONET.ORG] > > On a totally frivolous and unrelated note, we "cured" our cat of > rheumatoid > arthritis by dropping a sofa bed on her! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:33:55 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: First Indexing job > Most of the discussion so far deals with indexing for publishers. My > question, I guess, is not so much how to go about getting an indexing job > from an individual scholar as much as it is looking for feedback on the > ins and outs of doing that--problems, successes, relative lucrativity, > etc. In my experience, it depends. One of my favorite clients is an art historian who knows what a good index is and is willing to pay for it. She likes to review the drafts (which normally I don't let **anybody** see) and gives good input. She pays on delivery and was nice enough to tell me that someone had seen her book in a bookstore and decided to buy it after looking at all the interesting entries in the index. (Of course, they wouldn't have been in the index if she hadn't put them in the book.) On the other hand, my all-time client from hell was another author, who couldn't tell the difference between a significant and passing reference and would second guess me by searching the index entries using her word processor's search function. She complained constantly about the cost of the index, so I didn't try to negotiate a higher price when the level of indexing she demanded required 15-20 entries per page. When the final manuscript came out longer than her estimate (I quoted by the page), she even grudged the additional $30 it cost. Arrggh. Janet Russell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:39:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Ergonomics In a message dated 7/26/98 9:54:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indexer@SAMPO.CREIGHTON.EDU writes: > > I went to the site and saw some products, but I can't find the "reading in > bed" one. Did you see that in their actual catalog, or have they changed > the page extremely recently? > > -- Sarah Smith, who used to have time to read for pleasure :) > Sarah, The bed back-support was pictured in the ad I saw in a magazine. It has adjustable neck and lumbar support pads & looked very comfy. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:38:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Netscape 4.5 as Indexer [More News] In case I already posted this note, my apologies! Netscape's Navigator is my browser of choice, and I have not yet used the new version, which sounds exciting. HOWEVER, Alta Vista, already an outstanding program, has entered the fray as well. This is a snippet of the original posting: If you go to the following URL, it is the page pertinent [?] to indexers. By hitting other page links you may of course see other info. http://discovery.digital.com/pages/2g.shtml There is also an excellent book which I bought last year, "the Alta Vista Search Revolution", by Seltzer, Ray and Ray. Published by McGraw-Hill. ISBN 0-07-882235-1. Written in a friendly style, it contains a wealth of information; well worth the $18 I paid for it. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: First Indexing job I've done indexing and editing for a number of private clients. Overall, these people tend to pay less and expect more...and when they discover that I work at home, they tend to take advantage of that and drop by on Saturday afternoon if they have a question or problem or just want to shoot the breeze. I would not say NEVER work for private clients (including academics); rather, I'd say be very clear about pricing, deadlines, and so forth. A written contract would be a necessity, IMO. And expect them to be shocked at your rates, no matter how low the quote you give them. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:53:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? In a message dated 7/28/98 1:15:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sconroy@SLONET.ORG writes: > On a totally frivolous and unrelated note, we "cured" our cat of rheumatoid > arthritis by dropping a sofa bed on her! She had been having serious > difficulty with getting up...obviously achy and uncomfortable. We took her > to the vet, who diagnosed this disease after xrays and such, and wanted to > start her on regular cortisone shots. Since she was very young, we were > shocked that she had this problem. A few days later, we were moving > furniture in the living room and thought we had locked both kitties up > safely in another room. Well, we hadn't...and we plunked the sofa bed down > on top of this one. When we realized what had happened, we were almost > afraid to remove it. I was in tears, and so was my husband. > > The story has a happy ending, of course. She looked just like a cartoon > kittie...squashed flat with arms and legs not even akimbo--just straight out > to the sides. And there was a little puddle indicating that we had > scared the p**s right out of her. But she was otherwise undamaged...except > that from that night onward for the rest of her long life, she never ever > had a single sign of arthritis. > > =Sonsie= > Sonsie, This must have been the crudest chiropractic adjustment ever done!! Rheumatiod arthritis does occur in pets, but I imagine your vet made a misdiagnosis (due to not seeing osteoarthritic changes on the X-rays). She must have really had a major "kink" in her spine. Now, there are some vets who use chiropractic, so she could have gotten her fix in a less frightening way (to you). *She* probably sighed a-a-a-agh. Ann Truesdale (DVM) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:55:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Netscape 4.5 as Indexer [More News] In-Reply-To: <199807282042.QAA04957@camel5.mindspring.com> You sure about that URL? I am getting error messages... I tried all kinds of variations on it. Jan Wright At 04:38 PM 7/28/98 -0400, you wrote: >In case I already posted this note, my apologies! > >Netscape's Navigator is my browser of choice, and I have not yet >used the new version, which sounds exciting. HOWEVER, Alta Vista, >already an outstanding program, has entered the fray as well. > >This is a snippet of the original posting: > >the information retrievers and organizers of the web, I think >indexers may be extremely interested in the power of the new >version of Netscape: version 4.5.> > >If you go to the following URL, it is the page pertinent [?] to >indexers. By hitting other page links you may of course see other info. > > http://discovery.digital.com/pages/2g.shtml > >There is also an excellent book which I bought last year, "the Alta >Vista Search Revolution", by Seltzer, Ray and Ray. Published by >McGraw-Hill. ISBN 0-07-882235-1. Written in a friendly style, it >contains a wealth of information; well worth the $18 I paid for it. > >Cheers, >Dave T. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: horne@fwb.gulf.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Horne Subject: Working in heat Hi: About working in hot weather without AC: Consider a ceiling fan. Conventional wisdom here says the bigger the fan the better, because with a large one you can run it really slow and still be cooled without the air moving fast enough to disturb papers. A second thought is a small window air conditioner. The June 1998 Consumer Reports has a review, and their Best Buy small unit costs $230 and runs on standard household current. A side benefit of AC is that, while cooling, it also removes humidity from the air. My last thought concerns lighting. We have switched to mostly fluorescent lamps, including screw-in type bulbs. The idea was to conserve electricity, but they also produce less heat than incandescent bulbs. Good luck. Bob Horne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:38:22 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: How does "Oz" relate to Australia? At 10:31 AM 28/07/98 -0400, Eileen Lutzow wrote: >I've heard the term "Oz" used in >reference to Australia several times in the last few weeks, on this list and >elsewhere, and I haven't a clue as to how the two relate. Could some kind >soul please explain? "Aussie", pronounced "Ozzie" (not "Awssie" or "Awzie", as Michael Smith correctly points out) is a common term for an Australian, or for Australia, going back to about 1915. Also, less common, "Aussieland" for the country. Hence "Oz" as an abbreviated and more phonetic form. The first use of "Oz" in this sense recorded in the Australian National Dictionary is in 1944, so I guess the spelling was encouraged by the popularity of the film "The Wizard of Oz" (1939). There are earlier occurrences of other spellings ("Aus" and "Oss"). I have not previously heard Diane Worden's theory that OZ=Old Zealand, but I love it. Alan -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:00:37 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: first job/authors I am responding to two of the current subjects on the list: first indexing job and working with authors. While I was still taking the USDA indexing course my husband and our 17 year old son went "we're just looking" to see a dirt bike for sale. They came home with big grins and a dirt bike. After I finished throwing a fit my husband mentioned that they had purchased the bike from a Roman Catholic priest who was also a publisher for a Catholic press. Stephen, my husband, had mentioned to the Father that I was taking an indexing course. Two weeks later I received an almost hysterical call from a very nice Sister Lemon that the press needed an indexer immediately. I explained that I wasn't quite finished with the course but she didn't care, they needed an indexer right now. So, my first two indexes were for Sister Lemon. Following those jobs I received several referrals from local ASI members. That was all ten years ago and I've been working full-time every since. That same son often reminds me that I owe my career to his dirt bike phase :). It just goes to show that jobs can come from the strangest of circumstances and when you least expect it. While most of my clients are editors I have also had occasion to work directly with authors. I must say that some of my favorite indexing jobs have been with authors. Unfortunately, I have also worked with a couple of "authors from hell." I've found that if you clarify the price up front it doesn't really become an issue. If the price is too high they can choose to make other arrangements. The real problem with these difficult authors is that they think they know all about indexes and refuse to listen. The very worst experience I ever had was with a professor from a prominent and internationally known university. I was hired directly by this author and was to deliver the index to the editor when completed. He was completely closed to any input and had plenty of his own suggestions. For example, the biography he wrote was on an individual who frequently traveled back and forth to Paris during his life. There was not one bit of even passing information on the city Paris, it was only mentioned whenever the individual traveled back and forth to it. He not only, using a word search program, put in over 50 page references (no sub entries) to Paris but proudly sent me a copy of it and his other "corrections." The editor told me their whole production team was going out for drinks every Friday night just to roast this awful author. Fortunately, I was already a very experienced indexer by the time I worked with this author as this would have been a hideous first experience. Again, I must add that the vast majority of my author experiences have been just delightful. Authors seem to be as individual as their books! Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:23:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Derr Subject: Re: First Indexing job I'm new to the list, let me introduce myself. I am an aspiring indexer--about to take the USDA course. It's been very helpful to hear how folks have landed their first jobs. It seems to be a matter of both serendipity and hard work, doesn't it? Mary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:25:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood All - Re this relentlessly humorless discussion on usage: This came in on the Internet a couple of years ago. Don't know who the author is. Please don't bother to flame me - I didn't write it. And if we can't lighten up and laugh at ourselves, God help us! BTW, may I first make a brief comment on this thread? An English jurist (I can't remember his name) wrote a book just after WW II called "Advance to Barbarism" in which he observed that religious and cultural wars were the cruelist conflicts. Wars for possessions, he said, tended to end when one side or the other gained its objectives. But religious and cultural conflicts rage on until one side is exterminated (see: ethnic cleansing) because their very existence threatens the belief system of the victors. In such wars no quarter is given. The terrible logic here is that if one is not part of the solution then one must be part of the problem. Nobody is permitted to be neutral. There is no middle ground. A compelling case probably can be made that more people have died over words, labels and ideas than over land, cows and gold. Also, while we are discussing literary references, have you read George Orwell's "1984" recently? In it, he contrasts "Oldspeak" (i.e., conventional English) with "Newspeak" (i.e., political English). The idea behind the severely limited vocabulary in Newspeak is that if one hasn't a word to express seditious thoughts then one cannot formulate them. So, in Oldspeak we have a rich variety of expression, such as Good, Wonderful, Excellent, Marvellous, Outstanding, Exemplary, etc., etc., but in Newspeak we have only Good, Plusgood and Doubleplusgood. In Newspeak the word "free" has only mechanical connotations, such as "The wheel is free to turn on the shaft". Also, in Newspeak we have only Ungood, Plusungood, Doubleplusungood and (the worst) Thoughtcrime! It seems to me that the bitter intensity of the Usage Wars is similar. Using the (currently) incorrect term is Thoughtcrime! Dictionaries, as well as indexes, are being "sanitized", often by very small, very vocal, and largely unknown activist entities to suppress words and definitions that are deemed unacceptable (at the time) to them. In any case it is not clear (to me) that these vocal minorities truly reflect the feelings, beliefs, or wishes of the majorities they claim to represent. The problem, let me make clear, is not that abusive or demeaning language is desirable. Or that we must perpetuate abusive and destructive caricatures. But we seem to have gotten our tails so tightly wrapped around the axle that we are afraid to say anything for fear of offending somebody. And the ground rules are murky, changeable, and arbitrary. The Arbiters of Correctness seem to be self-appointed, but the threat of litigation is real and destructive. Is this not a form of intellectual bullying? It might be that as much as we are being educated and sensitized we also are being strait-jacketed. I would hate to be a political speechwriter or a university administrator in this climate. Lincoln said something about not being able to please all of the people all of the time. We seem to have forgotten this basic human truth. The imposition by a minority of entirely arbitrary standards, with punitive sanctions for violations, always has been dangerous. But this is not the venue for this discussion. So, here's Red Riding Hood. You can laugh or rage. As we say, hit makes no never mind to me.... But I hope that most of you will at least chuckle. Bob ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived on the edge of a large forest full of endangered owls and rare plants that would probably provide a cure for cancer if only someone took the time to study them. Red Riding Hood lived with a nurture giver whom she sometimes referred to as "mother", although she didn't mean to imply by this term that she would have thought less of the person if a close biological link did not in fact exist. Nor did she intend to denigrate the equal value of nontraditional households, although she was sorry if this was the impression conveyed. One day her mother asked her to take a basket of organically grown fruit and mineral water to her grandmother's house. "But mother, won't this be stealing work from the unionized people who have struggled for years to earn the right to carry all packages between various people in the woods?" Red Riding Hood's mother assured her that she had called the union boss and gotten a special compassionate mission exemption form. "But mother, aren't you oppressing me by ordering me to do this?" Red Riding Hood's mother pointed out that it was impossible for womyn to oppress each other, since all womyn were equally oppressed until all womyn were free. "But mother, then shouldn't you have my brother carry the basket, since he's an oppressor, and should learn what it's like to be oppressed?" And Red Riding Hood's mother explained that her brother was attending a special rally for animal rights, and besides, this wasn't stereotypical womyn's work, but an empowering deed that would help engender a feeling of community. "But won't I be oppressing Grandma, by implying that she's sick and hence unable to independently further her own selfhood?" But Red Riding Hood's mother explained that her grandmother wasn't actually sick or incapacitated or mentally handicapped in any way, although that was not to imply that any of these conditions were inferior to what some people called "health". Thus Red Riding Hood felt that she could get behind the idea of delivering the basket to her grandmother, and so she set off. Many people believed that the forest was a foreboding and dangerous place, but Red Riding Hood knew that this was an irrational fear based on cultural paradigms instilled by a patriarchal society that regarded the natural world as an exploitable resource, and hence believed that natural predators were in fact intolerable competitors. Other people avoided the woods for fear of thieves and deviants, but Red Riding Hood felt that in a truly classless society all marginalized peoples would be able to "come out" of the woods and be accepted as valid lifestyle role models. On her way to Grandma's house, Red Riding Hood passed a woodchopper, and wandered off the path, in order to examine some flowers. She was startled to find herself standing before a Wolf, who asked her what was in her basket. Red Riding Hood's teacher had warned her never to talk to strangers, but she was confident in taking control of her own budding sexuality, and chose to dialogue with the Wolf. She replied, "I am taking my Grandmother some healthful snacks in a gesture of solidarity." The Wolf said, "You know, my dear, it isn't safe for a little girl to walk through these woods alone." Red Riding Hood said, "I find your sexist remark offensive in the extreme, but I will ignore it because of your traditional status as an outcast from society, the stress of which has caused you to develop an alternative and yet entirely valid worldview. Now, if you'll excuse me, I would prefer to be on my way." Red Riding Hood returned to the main path, and proceeded towards her Grandmother's house. But because his status outside society had freed him from slavish adherence to linear, Western-style thought, the Wolf knew of a quicker route to Grandma's house. He burst into the house and ate Grandma, a course of action affirmative of his nature as a predator. Then, unhampered by rigid, traditionalist gender role notions, he put on Grandma's nightclothes, crawled under the bedclothes, and awaited developments. Red Riding Hood entered the cottage and said, Grandma, I have brought you some cruelty free snacks to salute you in your role of wise and nurturing matriarch." The Wolf said softly "Come closer, child, so that I might see you." Red Riding Hood said, "Goddess! Grandma, what big eyes you have!" You forget that I am optically challenged." And Grandma, what an enormous, what a fine nose you have." Naturally, I could have had it fixed to help my acting career, but I didn't give in to such societal pressures, my child." And Grandma, what very big, sharp teeth you have!" The Wolf could not take any more of these specist slurs, and, in a reaction appropriate for his accustomed milieu, he leaped out of bed, grabbed Little Red Riding Hood, and opened his jaws so wide that she could see her poor Grandmother cowering in his belly. Aren't you forgetting something?" Red Riding Hood bravely shouted. You must request my permission before proceeding to a new level of intimacy!" The Wolf was so startled by this statement that he loosened his grasp on her. At the same time, the woodchopper burst into the cottage, brandishing an ax. Hands off!" cried the woodchopper. And what do you think you're doing?" cried Little Red Riding Hood. If I let you help me now, I would be expressing a lack of confidence in my own abilities, which would lead to poor self esteem and lower achievement scores on college entrance exams." Last chance, sister! Get your hands off that endangered species! This is an FBI sting!" screamed the woodchopper, and when Little Red Riding Hood nonetheless made a sudden motion, he sliced off her head. Thank goodness you got here in time," said the Wolf. "The brat and her grandmother lured me in here. I thought I was a goner." No, I think I'm the real victim, here," said the woodchopper. "I've been dealing with my anger ever since I saw her picking those protected flowers earlier. And now I'm going to have such a trauma. Do you have any aspirin?" Sure," said the Wolf. Thanks." I feel your pain," said the Wolf, and he patted the woodchopper on his firm, well padded back, gave a little belch, and said "Do you have any Maalox?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:53:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Netscape 4.5 as Indexer [More News] To everyone interested in Netscape 4.5: I read on CNN electronic news site that the 4.5 beta version still has many bugs. You may want to wait for the official version. Let me know if you have heard otherwise. rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:14:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Heat Wave: How do you cope? At 05:53 PM 7/28/1998 EDT, Ann Truesdale wrote: >This must have been the crudest chiropractic adjustment ever done!! Rheumatiod >arthritis does occur in pets, but I imagine your vet made a misdiagnosis (due >to not seeing osteoarthritic changes on the X-rays). She must have really had >a major "kink" in her spine. Now, there are some vets who use chiropractic, so >she could have gotten her fix in a less frightening way (to you). *She* >probably sighed a-a-a-agh. To tell you the truth, Ann, we kinda figured there had been a misdiagnosis of one sort or another, but it has always been a prized story around the house that we "cured" her of whatever-it-was by dropping a sofa on her! What do they say..."what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger"? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:24:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: Verse Notations My editor has asked about why one method of noting verses in a Scripture Index is better than another. If I understand correctly, some of the indexers he has used in the past preferred Method B and an author just recently insisted upon Method A. My editor thinks that the ordinary reader would look to Method C but cannot formulate the "rule". Method A Jeremiah 9:1-2.............44 9:1.................61 9..................155 Method B Proverbs 7:1-2...............98 7:1.................101 7:3..................48 7.....................52 8:6.................222 8...................124 Method C Isaiah 5.....................79 5:1.................142 5:1-2.............187 5:6..................44 6.....................57 So 1. Why would an indexer choose one or the other method. 2. Do you have a source for your opinion (besides 'elementary, my dear Watson, elementary.' ) 3. And how would you state the "rule" ? Martha (withholding her strong opinions for the moment...) Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:30:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: First Indexing job << Can anyone also give perspective on doing work for individuals? As an academic, I will have easy access to scholars who individually will have to provide indexes to publishers for their own books. >> I don't know about indexing in particular, but I wrote a book that was published last year and I told the editor, "I want my friend So and So to be the proofreader." They had no problems with hiring her (I think she did have to take--and pass--their standard test.) If you have authors who want you to index their books, this approach might work for you, too. One really good part to this (I think) is putting the publisher into the middle, especially if you can get paid by the publisher and have the $$$ subtracted from the author's royalties. Much tidier that way! That's how it was supposed to work with my book's index, although so far nobody has bothered to deduct any $$$ from my royalties (my one check!). (Though I did have a very sweet editor who said she thought it was the pits to stick me with that, so maybe she worked a little behind-the-scenes magic!) Bonnie Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:42:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: First Indexing job To Whom Is Concerned: I have worked for individuals and for companies. So far, if I had to choose, I would rather work for the individual. I must admit I have never had to work for either in the same city I live in, so I do not have to deal with either appearing at my door. One company I work for pays net 60 (can you imagine?). The person I work for pays within the week after the job is complete. Can't beat that. Each indexer's story will vary with the client, some better than others. Bigger is not necessarily worse. rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: First Indexing job In-Reply-To: <199807282327.SAA0000019877@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> As I said earlier, I'm a newbie to all of this. I've seen the USDA course mentioned several times. Would you all consider this a necessity for getting "credentialed," or "just" a good idea? And where can you find out more about the course? Thanks much again. And thanks to everyone for indulging in my individual author question, which I know diverted the discussion somewhat (my apologies to the original poster--I'm interested in the first question about first jobs, too). Tom Dean On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Mary Derr wrote: > I'm new to the list, let me introduce myself. > I am an aspiring indexer--about to take the USDA course. > It's been very helpful to hear how folks have landed their first jobs. It > seems to be a matter of both serendipity and hard work, doesn't it? > > Mary >