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Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709B"
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sharon Wright <SHARONW@MICHIE.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply
Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an
in-house indexer who would like to remain as such,
we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify
our existence to The Powers That Be. While
outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am selfishly
reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job
security that comes with having a full-time position,
and objectively, I honestly believe that there are
benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a
debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs.
outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all
indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral in
this debate.
>>> Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> 09/06/97
09:39am >>>
Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's
wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply
myself because they want you to be there. If
I could work at home, I might have. In this day and age
of modems, I don't see why people won't let you work
at home. Maybe ASI should have a committee to
convince people that home workers are just as good
as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff
On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko
<sand@LOC.GOV> writes:
>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from
them in the past
>few
>months. When the first "position available" offer
appeared, I faxed
>them a
>letter and never even received a "thank you, but"
response. So, I am
>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted
them? What were the
>results?
>
> Sam Andrusko
>
>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote:
>
>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing
company, seeks
>freelance
>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical
product
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:56:07 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Peg Mauer <Pmauer@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question
In a message dated 97-09-07 11:07:10 EDT, you write:
> Is there a way to create multiple index entries using the same marker? I
> can get around it by putting another marker close by but I think it would
> be more efficient to put entries about the same topic at the same
> location.
>
Hi Sarah,
Yes, you can create multiple index entries in one marker. You separate index
entries within a marker with a semicolon (;). Marker text can be up to 255
characters long. I usually put one index marker at the end of each paragraph
so that the page isn't cluttered up with "T"s. The following example is in
one index entry box:
autoloader:disabling;cassettes:loading manually;<$startrange>enabling
Feed-Thru mode;disabling Feed-Thru mode;Feed-Thru mode:enabling and disabling
Note that all entries after the <$startrange> tag will need a <$endrange>
tag. (This is covered in the "Using FrameMaker" manual in chapter 23 in the
section, "To put several entries in one marker" -- it's page 23-11 in the
Release 5 manual.)
Hope this helps.
Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html
Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616
Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235
PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com
Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:23:52 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Writing for journals and other work without pay
In-Reply-To: <199709080252.TAA13853@mx5.u.washington.edu>
One more point, David has an Indiana University email account. Never, in
my entire career, as academic, as professor, as indexer, translator,
writer, etc., etc., was I paid so badly for full-time work and treated so
badly as I was at Indiana University. It certainly made be sour.
I would also add that journal publishing, while often small and
non-profitmaking in scope, can be very much the opposite too. I complained
of a journal that did not even provide a free copy of the issue in which
an article appeared. It was not a shoe-string publication, but one done
by a very big publishing company for profit, a lot of profit. Art for
art's sake is fine, but only if every one involved, as is apparenty the
case for the journal with which Betty is associated, is working for art
for art's sake. However, making the fat cats fatter... that is another
story entirely. There is also the element that we may be competing
with ourselves by providing free anything. There is absolutely nothing
to be ashamed of in wanting descent pay or descent work. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:52:51 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Seth A. Maislin" <seth@ORA.COM>
Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question
In-Reply-To: techndex@pacbell.net "Re: Another FrameMaker question" (Sep 7,
11:54am)
techndex@pacbell.net writes:
[Y]ou can put multiple entries within the same marker box by
separating them with a semicolon (;) up to a maximum character limit of 255
characters. Don't put any spaces to either side of the semicolon. However,
I do not recommend this technique because it makes editing such entries
more difficult.
I completely disagree with that last sentence (and agree with Peg).
I think it makes much more sense to have the markers as combined as possible,
because otherwise you are burdening the text with marker after marker.
I think there are three reasons. First, if you have a lot of markers, you have
less and less space to create them (assuming you don't want them adjacent,
which I think we all agree is just bad :-). You start tossing in cross postings
one word at a time, until you can have as many as five or six index markers
at the first five of six words of the sentence. If anyone is every going to
edit this material when you are done with it, you have just made life
very difficult for them; remember that it is very easy to accidentally delete
markers.
Second, you may want to make changes without having to use the Find dialog
of the hypertext linking from the final index. Sometimes you want to look
through the pages of the document to find where you know those index markers
are. But if when you get there you suddenly find eight of them on the page,
all next to each other, how do you know which marker you are looking for?
In addition, if you are trying to manually select the markers (instead of
using the hypertext of the Find dialog), having several markers makes this
a bit more challenging.
Third, if you are making global changes and you only have to change four
markers instead of sixteen, it's easier -- at least until FrameMaker realizes
that sometimes people want to globally find/replace marker text. :-)
- Seth
--
Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN
O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services
90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street
Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826
(617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428
(617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com
URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN
Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:01:03 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Frances Buran <fransez@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Deleting index markers in FrameMaker
You wrote:
>
>I am finally doing my first index in FrameMaker 5 and came across my
>first snag. I'm trying to delete a misplaced index marker. The
>on-line help is
>useless as far as I can tell and I followed the step-by-step
>directions in
>the book which didn't work!
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Sarah
>
Highlight the marker and press Del. Yes, the online help is not very
helpful.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:05:01 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Frances Buran <fransez@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question
You wrote:
>
>I have another FrameMaker question, less urgent, that isn't covered by
>my book. I guess people who write software manuals aren't that
>familiar with how people make indexes.
>
>Is there a way to create multiple index entries using the same marker?
>I can get around it by putting another marker close by but I think it
>would be more efficient to put entries about the same topic at the
>same location.
>
>Sarah
>
You can embed multiple entries in the same marker by using a semicolon
as the separator character. For example
online help:useless;index markers:deleting;embedding multiple entries
would put three entries in the index, one at online help, at index
markers and at embedding multiple entries
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:39:43 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Seth A. Maislin" <seth@ORA.COM>
Subject: In-house indexing (long)
In-Reply-To: Sharon Wright <SHARONW@michie.com> "Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing
position -Reply" (Sep 8, 9:12am)
There are a lot of in-house indexers. I'm one of them -- although I
have a freelance business as well. That puts me in the unusual position
of having both contracted freelancers and been contracted as a freelancer.
The advantages of salary work are obvious: benefits and job security, to
some extent. The advantages to freelance work are also obvious: total
professional freedom, choosing your workplace. So to compare the two is
to compare apples and oranges -- although anyone with a knack for working
independently has compared them anyway. :-)
So from a purely employer-centric point of view, I will tell you why I
think in-house indexing is advantageous. Remember, I'm the in-house guy
when I write this. :-) Later, I'll present the other side.
In-house indexing is faster, especially if you are working with embedded
indexing. I am also in closer contact with the book production team and
even the authors. This gives me an advantage, which translates to a better
index. And if I ever need a freelancer, I choose somebody who best matches
*my* needs, so I can still impose my own professional style upon the final
product.
In-house indexing has also made me a celebrity to this company. When I first
came here I was a bit of an underdog. People tended to forget about the index
until the last minute, or to forget that moving a piece of art can have a
dramatic effect on my work. So I made noise for a long time, explained my
needs and requirements, and talked about what I know would help me do my job
and create better indexes. Over time, there have been changes in scheduling,
author-indexer contact, the index review process, and cost analysis. Over time,
then I have developed a niche for myself -- something I have never adequately
developed working at home with many many different clients. And the product
has improved. I am now responsible not only for the book indexes, but for
the indexes to online products and to the online representations of the book
indexes (all of which are available off my Web site, for fun :-).
In-house indexing teaches you a lot about particular subjects. If I were an
indexer for Microsoft, I'd own an amazing amount of Microsoft knowledge.
Working for O'Reilly & Associates, I'm surprised to find that I'm one of the
few indexers out there who understands a lot of computer stuff: HTML, Java,
JavaScript, VBScript, Oracle databases, Microsoft Windows Registries, email,
networking, and so on -- because these are the subjects that O'Reilly
publishes. Thus I have a knowledge niche as well -- something I didn't quite
gain working for myself and indexing books ranging from traffic engineering
and wavelets to statistical software and dBASE. This is a real advantage --
very much like an apprenticeship -- and it serves me well in future
business endeavors. (People have heard of O'Reilly & Associates, but few
have heard of my own company name, Focus Publishing Services.)
So in summary, working in-house means the indexes are faster, possibly better,
cheaper to produce, and without sudden surprises. In addition, a company
who hires an in-house indexer can create a specialty indexer without any
extra effort.
Now, the devil's advocate side. Where's the advantage to freelancing, then?
Because I'm also a freelancer, and when I hear about a company in Virginia
that is unwilling to work with me because I live near Boston, that's
disappointing, especially with the Internet.
The advantages for a company to hire a freelancer are that they are less work
to maintain, exchangeable (you can always find a different freelancer for any
reason, without explanation), and in some cases more professional (because
they know they are exchangeable, and will work a bit harder and bend over
backwards to get the job done as desired). They may not specialize, but they
bring with them a mix of experience that could prove very useful in books
about humanities and social sciences. And, once the book goes out the door in
the package, you can just about forget about and worry about other things.
(At my job at O'Reilly, I can interfere with the work of other production team
members by trying to work on the same chapters at the same time.) They aren't
cheaper when it comes to salary -- I believe that indexers should be paid
fairly regardless of whom they work for -- but there are additional expenses
with freelancers, such as shipping, phone calls, extra management, and so on,
especially when you are interviewing for a new indexer. But these costs are
balanced because there is no overhead costs for the company: they don't need
another office, another email address to maintain, another paycheck
to print. Finally, having multiple freelancers on several projects each is an
educational process for the company itself, who can learn by talking with
people who have worked on other books for other companies -- in some cases,
competitors.
In conclusion, if you look carefully, there is often a way to provide all
of these things, regardless of who employs you. If you are willing to work
hard when it's asked of you, to keep lines of communication open, to
research well, occasionally to meet somebody in person, and be professional,
and take advantage of today's communication technologies, you don't have to be
at any disadvantages at all.
- Seth
--
Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN
O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services
90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street
Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826
(617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428
(617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com
URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN
Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:35:43 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Taxes
Janet Perlman wrote:
>As long as you've got some income coming in, you
> pay quarterly. It comes to about 1/4 of my gross, and since it's
quarterly,
> it cuts into disposable income in a big way, accumulating that much cash
so
> you have it on hand for 6/15, 9/15, 12/15, and 4/15, when you have the
> pleasure of paying anything you owe for the past year's taxes *plus* your
> first quarterly payment for the new year.
I have a question regarding when one is required to begin paying
self-employment tax. And yes, I've already contacted the IRS with this
one. The self-employment experts there are so busy that I had to leave a
message; they'll call back within several days. Unfortunately, that puts
me awfully close to the 9/15 deadline! I'm hoping someone on the list has
experience with a similar situation and can help me out. Of course, the
IRS will have the final word. (Don't they always?)
I'm a beginning indexer; I've just received a check for my first
professional job. (Boy, did that feel good!) Other than that, I have had
no income so far this year; my previous employer folded in January owing me
around $9000 (it's a long story.) Fortunately, we're able to manage on my
husband's income, barely.
My question is this: Is there any minimum amount one must make before one
is required to pay quarterly self-employment taxes? Must I now, before the
15th, pay 1/4 of what I just earned? Do I also pay 1/4 of what I estimate
I'll earn in the next quarter? If the latter, how do I estimate how much
I'll earn? As a beginner, I have no earthly idea how many jobs I'll
actually get before December, if any.
A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken
yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my
expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D )
TIA for your input!
Kara Pekar
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:47:38 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply
If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an in-house indexer.
However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance job. Sure, ther are
benefits to being an in-house indexer. No one says there aren't.
Suellen G. Kasoff
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400 Sharon Wright <SHARONW@MICHIE.COM>
writes:
>Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an
>in-house indexer who would like to remain as such,
>we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify
>our existence to The Powers That Be. While
>outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am selfishly
>reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job
>security that comes with having a full-time position,
>and objectively, I honestly believe that there are
>benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a
>debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs.
>outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all
>indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral in
>this debate.
>
>>>> Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> 09/06/97
>09:39am >>>
>Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's
>wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply
>myself because they want you to be there. If
>I could work at home, I might have. In this day and age
>of modems, I don't see why people won't let you work
>at home. Maybe ASI should have a committee to
>convince people that home workers are just as good
>as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff
>
>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko
><sand@LOC.GOV> writes:
>>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from
>them in the past
>>few
>>months. When the first "position available" offer
>appeared, I faxed
>>them a
>>letter and never even received a "thank you, but"
>response. So, I am
>>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted
>them? What were the
>>results?
>>
>> Sam Andrusko
>>
>>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote:
>>
>>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing
>company, seeks
>>freelance
>>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical
>product
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:03:53 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Taxes
Good questions! Please remember that I am not a tax expert. My knowledge
is .... whatever it is, and you need to get a definitive opinion from the IRS
or a CPA who works with such matters. It pays to pay a CPA now, IMHO, to
stay out of trouble with the CPA. That's what I did as soon as I went
fulltime free-lance. I consulted our CPA, who did our taxes, and it was he
who gave me the bad news about the quarterly payment I had to make
immediately. You'll need CPA advice periodically anyway, so you might as
well start now, I'd say. Unless you're a tax expert, and can read IRS
publications and understand them.
Every quarter, I run income and expense figures to date and annualize them.
We are required to pay in 90% of what we owe in my estimated taxes in the
course of all the payments, so it's a gamble as to what your final income
will be for the year. If you don't stay within the IRS's required percentage
(I think 90, but I may be off), then you're in a penalty situation. So
estimating is what's needed here. That's why it's called "estimated tax".
;-)
Your situation is not an easy one, since it is your first year. You'll have
to come up with a dollar figure for your probably income, and see what, if
anything was withheld up til the time you became self-employed, figure that
in, and figure your taxes owed (you need to know your tax bracket, your
expenses, etc). Again, I'd see to seek professional help right now, and stay
out of trouble.
If you have thousands of dollars in back wages in litigation, you'll need
professional advice on how to handle that.
I hope this helps.
Janet Perlman
Southwest Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:26:34 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments
In-Reply-To: <199709080406.XAA06393@mixcom.mixcom.com>
Michael, congrats from me, too.
The two most difficult adjustments for me have been self-discipline
(creating a morning coffee routine helped) and teaching my family not to
interrupt me when I'm working. We worked out a system of signs that I put
on my office door, depending on what level of concentration I need at any
given time.
The other thing that was tricky for me was developing the habit of keeping
careful records of expenses (in different categories no less!) and
earnings. Since you mentioned that you do indexing, copyediting, and other
things, I can tell you that tracking (separately) my income from indexing
and copyediting for a year turned out to be a real eye opener. I ended up
giving up copyediting for academic presses. In general, the record keeping
has helped not only in the usual way--with taxes--but with structuring my
business the way I want it.
I also highly recommend writing up a business plan and reviewing it at
least once a year. Come to think of it, I don't know that we've ever
discussed on Index-L how to write up a business plan. I'd be curious to
know how others did it.
On the positive side, an unexpected pleasure was the "strokes." Unlike when
I worked as an in-house editor, I now get lots of praise for my work--from
both editors and authors. I finally feel appreciated.
Best of luck to you! I've been full-time for 4 yrs. I love the work, and I
love the lifestyle.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:26:35 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Writing for journals and other work without pay
In-Reply-To: <199709080406.XAA06393@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>That is my observation of 28 years: creative and artistic people,
>including writers, are often so enamored of their craft that they
>neglect to learn the business. Youth often neglects to think of the
>future. When the universities themselves and the low-wage businesses
>that gravitate to such towns take unfair advantage of them, it is pretty
>pathetic. I admit to frequently taking advantage of opportunities to
>remind my students - and anybody who cares to read my words - to stop,
>look and listen to the business bits (and copyright bits) whenever you
>are offered an opportunity.
I couldn't agree more. I recently had the shock of discovering what value
an editor placed on my expertise in philosophy. I used to do copyediting
for several academic presses (as well as indexing). When I learned that the
presses simply would not pay a living wage for copyediting, I gave that up,
but I always figured the editors at least *valued* what they were losing.
You can imagine my surprise at learning that one of the editors said that
my expertise was icing on the cake but nothing she would pay for. And mind
you, the editing I did for her made very good use of that expertise, and
the authors were extremely appreciative.
Even though I've told this editor that I won't copyedit for academic
presses any more, I still get calls from her subordinates that start like
this: "I know you're not doing much copyediting any more, but I thought
that a philosophy book might tempt you." So there it is again, that view
that because I love philosophy and editing so much, I'll be willing to lose
a lot of money for the privilege of editing this book. Sheesh!
Thank you for bringing this subject up.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:23:38 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Taxes
At 12:35 PM 9/8/97 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote:
>I'm a beginning indexer; I've just received a check for my first
>professional job. (Boy, did that feel good!) Other than that, I have had
>no income so far this year; my previous employer folded in January owing me
>around $9000 (it's a long story.) Fortunately, we're able to manage on my
>husband's income, barely.
>
>My question is this: Is there any minimum amount one must make before one
>is required to pay quarterly self-employment taxes? Must I now, before the
>15th, pay 1/4 of what I just earned? Do I also pay 1/4 of what I estimate
>I'll earn in the next quarter? If the latter, how do I estimate how much
>I'll earn? As a beginner, I have no earthly idea how many jobs I'll
>actually get before December, if any.
I'm not a tax expert, but I've been self-employed for over 25 years, and
here's my take on this (which also includes the advice I've gotten from my
own tax preparer over the years).
If the withholding your husband has taken from his salary is enough to cover
the self-employment tax YOU will owe this year, then you don't have to send
any estimated payments. Or, if you somehow paid in enough in withholding at
your previous job to cover both that job's taxes and your small freelance
income, you're also covered.
The whole point of sending in estimated taxes is that our system is "pay as
you go." Employed people have withholding; self-employed people use
estimated tax payments. If you've sent in enough payments (via either
method) to cover at least 90% of what you owe for the year, then you're
fine. If for some reason your withholding and estimated taxes come in at
less than 90%, you will have to pay a penalty and possibly some interest on
the overdue amount. While you certainly don't want to get into this
situation, it's not criminal and the fine and interest payments are not huge.
>A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken
>yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my
>expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D )
Business expenses are deducted yearly when you file your tax return, but
they do affect how large your estimated tax payments should be. For example,
if you had received $1000 as your first indexing check and knew that you had
deductible business expenses of $500, your actual net income (on which you
pay taxes) is going to be only $500 (not $1000). So that's the amount you
base your estimated tax payment on.
When you file your Schedule C for 1997, if your expenses still outweigh your
freelance income, you'll have a nice little tax loss. If this continues for
several years, of course, the IRS will want to know if you're doing a hobby
rather than a business, but it's not going to be a problem this year. In
fact, if you and your husband file a joint tax return, that loss reduces
your gross income...and thereby your tax liability. And if you sent in
estimated tax payments, you would get a refund (or the amount can be applied
to next year's tax liability).
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:52:13 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Joel S. Berson" <J.Berson@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Taxes
Do talk to a tax professional! The rules and procedures for
self-employment income and taxes are complicated.
I believe one can pay quarterly estimated taxes based on what one has
earned, and ones expenses, up to the end of that quarter. (Note that
the "quarters" are not all 3 months long, based on the dates the
payments are due.) That is, one does not have to guess what one might
earn during the rest of the year. Also, expenses during the quarter may
be deducted from gross income to determine the taxable income for that
quarter. Aside from the question of expenses, the estimated tax
payments are similar to what one is responsible for if one has
investment income or capital gains.
If one wants to work through the IRS instructions and forms oneself,
look at Schedule C, Profit or Loss From Business; Schedule SE,
Self-Employment Tax; and Form 4562, Depreciation and Amortization (e.g.
for computer equipment purchased), and their associated instruction
booklets. Good luck with this!
Joel
John and Kara Pekar wrote [excerpted]:
>
> My question is this: Is there any minimum amount one must make before one
> is required to pay quarterly self-employment taxes? Must I now, before the
> 15th, pay 1/4 of what I just earned? Do I also pay 1/4 of what I estimate
> I'll earn in the next quarter? If the latter, how do I estimate how much
> I'll earn? As a beginner, I have no earthly idea how many jobs I'll
> actually get before December, if any.
>
> A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken
> yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my
> expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D )
>
> TIA for your input!
>
> Kara Pekar
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:58:00 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LBaker@GALE.COM
Subject: In-house freelancers
Larry Baker@ITP
09/08/97 12:58 PM
Seth Maislin's email on the pros and cons of in-house and freelance
indexers was well-done. I can't say that I disagree with any of it!!
I guess I've got to say, though, that I'm surprised that Chadwyck-Healey
(or anyone) would hire freelancers who would work inside the company,
presumably with their own desk, phone, PC, etc.--in other words, the
company's equipment. We would not be allowed to do that at the company I
work at (and I thought equipment, location, etc. were on that Top 20 list
the IRS uses when determining whether or not someone is an employee in
their eyes). We do hire temporary employees from time to time (summer
student help, for instance), but there are definite start and end dates.
Maybe that's what C-H is doing, and this is just a lesson in semantics.
Larry Baker
lbaker@gale.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:09:24 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" <lsweetln@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Taxes
Hi, I'm not a CPA--many aren't--but I have been doing taxes since the
'70s for my husband who has been self-employed for years. I also do taxes
for a few other people--by word of mouth--I don't advertize or get into
it in a big way. We used to have a CPA do our taxes until I found all of
the errors he made on our business. Once I discovered that, I began doing
our taxes and having him check them. Now I just get "Consumer Reports
Books "Guide to Income Tax" --available at any Super Crown or other
discount book store. It is very clear and gives you all the helpful tips
to save you money. If you are doing a tremendous business (I'm not--since
I am semi-retired and also on Social Security)-you can get by with this
book and a good tax software such as Turbo Tax.
Once you are earning a substantial income--then get a CPA if you feel the
need. If the CPA makes any errors you are still liable for them, so pick
one that is well referred.
I do a number of people who went to H&R Block and I had to amend
previous years due to the errors. I worked for Jackson Hewit (next to H&
R Block) for one year--enough to see what a rip off they are.
Not sure this is helpful but I see someone else replied with precise
information also.
Loraine F. Sweetland
IPS Information Problem Solvers
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:41:58 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sharon Wright <SHARONW@MICHIE.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply -Reply
I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes. The
comment that I was responding to was this:
"Maybe ASI should have a committee to convince
people that home workers are just as good as
in-house workers?"
I do not question for an instant that many home
workers are as good as or better than in-house
workers, but as an in-house worker, I have
reservations about ASI forming such a committee
because it is detrimental to my best interests and the
interests of other in-house employees. If the ASI (or
anyone else) convinces my employer that home
workers can do my job as well as I can for less
money, I'm out of a job, and this is a scenario that
many of us "in-housers" frequently find themselves up
against. The only point I was trying to make is that I,
personally, would appreciate it if the ASI did not form
such a committee or make such an effort. Perhaps I
was over-responding to a throw-away comment. If
so, I apologize. My only explanation is that it touched
on a very sensitive subject with me, as I and my
department have recently been in the position of
having to justify to new owners why they should
maintain an indexing department and not just
outsource everything. (Incidentally, we seem to have
won the day on that one, for now, but it's still a touchy
topic!)
Seth made any point I could have made on the relative
merits of in-house v. self-employed indexers far more
eloquently than I could, so on that topic I will defer to
him.
>>> Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> 09/08/97
12:47pm >>>
If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an
in-house indexer.
However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance
job. Sure, ther are benefits to being an in-house
indexer. No one says there aren't.
Suellen G. Kasoff
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400 Sharon Wright
<SHARONW@MICHIE.COM> writes:
>Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an
>in-house indexer who would like to remain as such,
>we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify
>our existence to The Powers That Be. While
>outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am
selfishly
>reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job
>security that comes with having a full-time position,
>and objectively, I honestly believe that there are
>benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a
>debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs.
>outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all
>indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral
in
>this debate.
>
>>>> Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> 09/06/97
>09:39am >>>
>Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's
>wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply
>myself because they want you to be there. If
>I could work at home, I might have. In this day and
age
>of modems, I don't see why people won't let you
work
>at home. MMaybe ASI should have a committee to
>convince people that home workers are just as good
>as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff
>
>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko
><sand@LOC.GOV> writes:
>>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from
>them in the past
>>few
>>months. When the first "position available" offer
>appeared, I faxed
>>them a
>>letter and never even received a "thank you, but"
>response. So, I am
>>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted
>them? What were the
>>results?
>>
>> Sam Andrusko
>>
>>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote:
>>
>>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing
>company, seeks
>>freelance
>>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical
>product
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:45:55 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Art for art's sake and Indiana University, life the universe..
In-Reply-To: <199709081840.LAA28709@mx2.u.washington.edu>
There is a major typo in a recent message. That is decent, nothing to do
with Darwin. I should not do my email until my second cup of coffee...
Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:05:09 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" <jbclend@FLASH.NET>
Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services
Subject: Re: Taxes
Kara,
On the subject of estimated taxes; I will tell you what my procedure is,
and what I understand the rules to be, but you also need to confirm this
with the IRS or other professionals. I did the same research you're
doing back in 1995.
Here's the beginner's deal: You don't have to pay estimated taxes
unless
1) You estimate you will _owe_ $500 or more _in taxes_ (it's not based
on income).
2) If, with your husband's witholding, you are able to put 90% of your
combined total tax responsibility in the IRS's hands by Apr 15, you
won't be penalized.
Some folks just up the withholding on the salaried person's income and
forget about estimated taxes, but that seemed ridiculous in my family,
because I started in full time and expected to make enough so it would
be a struggle to get to that 90%.
So, I decided to pay estimated taxes. Now, how to figure out what
you're going to make. IRS says you can base this year's estimated taxes
on last year's income, although if you have a dramatic increase, you
could be in trouble doing that. And, of course, if you had no
self-employment income last year, you can't use this method.
The IRS has two methods to estimate taxes from estimates of future
income. I really didn't understand them that well, let me tell you. I
thought about estimating my income and then figuring the tax and paying
in equal installments, but some months I don't get any checks because of
slow periods, so I felt it was unfair to dig into my husband's income
when I knew in the end that I would have the right amount by Apr. 15.
So, this is what I do. When I receive a check, I set aside 33% of it
into a special Tax saving fund in Quicken. The percentage is based on
our combined income's tax bracket (28%), plus a little extra to cover
the FICA tax, but not the whole FICA responsibility, because I will have
business deductions. The first year I saved out 30% and came up $300
short, so I upped it a little after that. Then, when the estimated
payment times come around, I simply empty that special savings fund and
send the money to the IRS. Then I start over until the next payment is
due. This way I do my own withholding up front, so there's no panic at
payment time. Last year I even got a refund, because I had
underestimated my business expenses a bit.
Anyway, works for me.
Joanne
--
AfterWords Indexing Services
Joanne E. Clendenen
9597 Jones Rd. #113
Houston, TX 77065
281-469-4461
email: jbclend@flash.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:59:07 LCL
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Victoria Baker <vbaker@PACIFIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply
In-Reply-To: <199709081652.JAA12594@pacific.net>
>If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an in-house indexer.
>However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance job. Sure, ther are
>benefits to being an in-house indexer. No one says there aren't.
>Suellen G. Kasoff
Someone, I can't find the post, suggested that ASI work to convince
employers of in-house indexers to go with freelancers instead. I agree
with Sharon that ASI, and really, this list, has no business advocating the
downfall of one kind of indexer to the benefit of another. Freelancers'
hunger for work nothwithstanding.
My mentoring was under the aegis of an in-house indexing department and I
am forever indebted and grateful to them. Long may you wave.
Further, indexing has always been both freelanced and in-house. I'm
sensitive enough to the issues that really, if I thought the source of my
freelance work was a result of the downsizing/outsourcing misery that we
call corporate conduct these days, I wouldn't have been able to become an
indexer in the first place. But that's me.
Best,
Victoria
vbaker@pacific.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:52:33 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Erika Millen <emillen@SAMS.MCP.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -
Sharon Wright writes:
<<I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes. The
comment that I was responding to was this:
"Maybe ASI should have a committee to convince
people that home workers are just as good as
in-house workers?"
I do not question for an instant that many home
workers are as good as or better than in-house
workers, but as an in-house worker, I have
reservations about ASI forming such a committee
because it is detrimental to my best interests and the
interests of other in-house employees. If the ASI (or
anyone else) convinces my employer that home
workers can do my job as well as I can for less
money, I'm out of a job, and this is a scenario that
many of us "in-housers" frequently find themselves up
against. >>
I think in-house versus freelance is a decision best left to
individual companies and indexers... not to ASI. Each
publisher has different needs: sometimes in-house indexing is
more appropriate (for example, if indexers need to work from
production files or files in progress), and sometimes
freelance indexing is the best route. Certainly there
are qualified indexers who work in both situations. As far as
salary goes, our company pays freelance indexers several times what
an in-house indexer would earn per page, but they also avoid having to
pay insurance, vacation, 401k, etc. And of course indexers choose
between freelance and in-house work for many different reasons.
Child-care issues, retirement plans, insurance needs (your family
may or may not be covered through your spouse), desire for job
security/regular paycheck, startup costs of working at home...
all of these will influence someone's decision to pursue
freelance work.
ASI was formed to represent the indexing profession as a whole. I'd
hate to see it endorse freelance over in-house *or* vice versa... both
freelancers and in-house employees should be equally welcome.
Erika Millen
(Macmillan/Simon & Schuster)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:02:45 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -
In-Reply-To: <199709081955.MAA09724@mx3.u.washington.edu>
I think that decisions on in-house or external indexers will be made
largely in terms of the needs and interests of clients, and a certain
conservatism in the market place about telecommuters. I don't think what
the ASI wants is going to matter a hill of beans. Perhaps the most
significant factor will be that companies in relatively undeveloped areas
may not be able to find the kind of indexers they want locally for
in-house use. Our skills are often quite specialized. In a city like New
York, on the other hand, there may be indexers galore to choose from. I
don't think anyone should feel threatened about this discussion.
Personally, I find onsite work distasteful period. I hate playing office
games and would rather spend time getting something done than going to
meetings and getting down on all fours, Thus, another factor: not all
indexers want to be in-house indexers. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:05:03 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: In-house freelancers
Larry, I don't think they are hiring freelancers inside the company.
Suellen
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:58:00 -0400 LBaker@GALE.COM writes:
>Larry Baker@ITP
>09/08/97 12:58 PM
>
>Seth Maislin's email on the pros and cons of in-house and freelance
>indexers was well-done. I can't say that I disagree with any of it!!
>
>I guess I've got to say, though, that I'm surprised that
>Chadwyck-Healey
>(or anyone) would hire freelancers who would work inside the company,
>presumably with their own desk, phone, PC, etc.--in other words, the
>company's equipment. We would not be allowed to do that at the company
>I
>work at (and I thought equipment, location, etc. were on that Top 20
>list
>the IRS uses when determining whether or not someone is an employee in
>their eyes). We do hire temporary employees from time to time (summer
>student help, for instance), but there are definite start and end
>dates.
>Maybe that's what C-H is doing, and this is just a lesson in
>semantics.
>
>Larry Baker
>lbaker@gale.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:12:41 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply -Reply
I still don't see why a committee like that would be detrimental to
anyone. Anyway, I doubt that it would be formed. However, it seems to me
that ASI is for freelancers as much as in-house indexers. Suellen
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:41:58 -0400 Sharon Wright <SHARONW@MICHIE.COM>
writes:
>I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes. The
>comment that I was responding to was this:
>
>"Maybe ASI should have a committee to convince
>people that home workers are just as good as
>in-house workers?"
>
>I do not question for an instant that many home
>workers are as good as or better than in-house
>workers, but as an in-house worker, I have
>reservations about ASI forming such a committee
>because it is detrimental to my best interests and the
>interests of other in-house employees. If the ASI (or
>anyone else) convinces my employer that home
>workers can do my job as well as I can for less
>money, I'm out of a job, and this is a scenario that
>many of us "in-housers" frequently find themselves up
>against. The only point I was trying to make is that I,
>personally, would appreciate it if the ASI did not form
>such a committee or make such an effort. Perhaps I
>was over-responding to a throw-away comment. If
>so, I apologize. My only explanation is that it touched
>on a very sensitive subject with me, as I and my
>department have recently been in the position of
>having to justify to new owners why they should
>maintain an indexing department and not just
>outsource everything. (Incidentally, we seem to have
>won the day on that one, for now, but it's still a touchy
>topic!)
>
>Seth made any point I could have made on the relative
>merits of in-house v. self-employed indexers far more
>eloquently than I could, so on that topic I will defer to
>him.
>
>>>> Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> 09/08/97
>12:47pm >>>
>If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an
>in-house indexer.
>However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance
>job. Sure, ther are benefits to being an in-house
>indexer. No one says there aren't.
>Suellen G. Kasoff
>
>On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400 Sharon Wright
><SHARON W@MICHIE.COM> writes:
>>Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an
>>in-house indexer who would like to remain as such,
>>we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify
>>our existence to The Powers That Be. While
>>outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am
>selfishly
>>reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job
>>security that comes with having a full-time position,
>>and objectively, I honestly believe that there are
>>benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a
>>debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs.
>>outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all
>>indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral
>in
>>this debate.
>>
>>>>> Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> 09/06/97
>>09:39am >>>
>>Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's
>>wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply
>>myself because they want you to be there. If
>>I could work at home, I might have. In this day and
>age
>>of modems, I don't see why people won't let you
>work
>>at home. MMaybe ASI should have a committee to
>>convince people that home workers are just as good
>>as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff
>>
>>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko
>><sand@LOC.GOV> writes:
>>>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from
>>them in the past
>>>few
>>>months. When the first "position available" offer
>>appeared, I faxed
>>>them a
>>>letter and never even received a "thank you, but"
>>response. So, I am
>>>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted
>>them? What were the
>>>results?
>>>
>>> Sam Andrusko
>>>
>>>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing
>>company, seeks
>>>freelance
>>>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical
>>product
>>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:21:21 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply
Victoria: I think I must have been misunderstood. I never said that
Chadwyck-Healey (or anybody else for that matter) should hire freelancers
INSTEAD of in-house indexers. I just would like to know why they can't
have a few of each. Seems to me ASI is for everybody, not just in-house
indexers. Suellen
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:59:07 LCL Victoria Baker <vbaker@PACIFIC.NET>
writes:
>>If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an in-house indexer.
>>However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance job. Sure, ther
>are
>>benefits to being an in-house indexer. No one says there aren't.
>>Suellen G. Kasoff
>
>Someone, I can't find the post, suggested that ASI work to convince
>employers of in-house indexers to go with freelancers instead. I
>agree
>with Sharon that ASI, and really, this list, has no business
>advocating the
>downfall of one kind of indexer to the benefit of another.
>Freelancers'
>hunger for work nothwithstanding.
>
>My mentoring was under the aegis of an in-house indexing department
>and I
>am forever indebted and grateful to them. Long may you wave.
>
>Further, indexing has always been both freelanced and in-house. I'm
>sensitive enough to the issues that really, if I thought the source of
>my
>freelance work was a result of the downsizing/outsourcing misery that
>we
>call corporate conduct these days, I wouldn't have been able to become
>an
>indexer in the first place. But that's me.
>
>Best,
>Victoria
>
>
>
>vbaker@pacific.net
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:21:04 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LBaker@GALE.COM
Subject: Re: In-house freelancers
Larry Baker@ITP
09/08/97 04:21 PM
Suellen wrote:
>Larry, I don't think they are hiring freelancers inside the company.
Hmmm... I thought the email used the word freelancer, but maybe not. I
guess I must have read it wrong, it being a Monday and all!! (I erased the
original so I couldn't go back to see what had actually been said.)
Lurker button reactivated....
Larry Baker
lbaker@gale.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:16:55 -0700
Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "S. Greenhouse" <greenhou@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Inhouse vs. Freelancer
Not to shake the tree further, but to clear the air and send the
starling home to roost. I think it's up to the individual to convince a
company with an opening that hiring oneself is to the benefit of the
company regardless of where you do your work. I convinced a company that
wanted an on-site employee that I could do the job at home, with
telecommuting and FedEx; further, that I could do the job well and in a
timely fashion despite the time lost by shipping material back and
forth. I offered to work at home on a trial basis and/or work on-site
for a limited training period. I have never hesitated to apply for jobs
I'm interested in, regardless of the tone of the request. If you really
want a job, I think you should let nothing stand in the way of your
applying for the job. Let your expertise and experience sell the
employer on you. I also recontact companies that have turned me down
because I can't work on-site. Sometimes, if they can't find someone who
can work on-site, they will look at telecommuters. Be flexible. After
all, if you don't get the job, it's really _their_ loss, right?
I don't feel ASI should take sides or form committees on these issues.
ASI's job is to enhance the opportunities for all indexers, regardless
of their worksite. ASI shouldn't support one type of indexing over any
other, be it on-site vs. freelance or database vs. BOB vs CD-ROM. ASI
has it's collective hands full trying to maximize the opportunities for
all indexers to work and be fully regarded as professionals.
Shelley Greenhouse
greenhou@erols.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:00:43 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Society of Indexers meeting
To UK indexers......
For those of us who didn't have the opportunity to attend your (Society of
Indexers) annual conference in Dublin last week, how was it? If anybody
would care to post any impressions, summaries, etc, here, it would be most
interesting.
Wish I could have been there!
Janet Perlman
Southwest Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:23:31 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Michael K. Smith" <mksmith1@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments
In-Reply-To: <199709081729.MAB02706@SWBELL.net>
At 12:26 PM 9/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>The other thing that was tricky for me was developing the habit of keeping
>careful records of expenses (in different categories no less!) and
>earnings. Since you mentioned that you do indexing, copyediting, and other
>things, I can tell you that tracking (separately) my income from indexing
>and copyediting for a year turned out to be a real eye opener. I ended up
>giving up copyediting for academic presses. In general, the record keeping
>has helped not only in the usual way--with taxes--but with structuring my
>business the way I want it.
Well, I've made a fair amount over the years as a *part-time* freelancer,
so I know all about the hit you take with FICA! I haven't had to pay
quarterly taxes in the past, but I know how it works, so I *think* I'm
prepared for that. I've been using QUICKEN for several years with great
satisfaction, since you can set up a whole separate category for "Business"
and then make as many sub-categories as you need for accounts. I'm a
devotee of TURBO TAX, too. :)
Copyediting vs. indexing: I've always charged roughly the same amount per
page of print-to-be-read, so I don't think it's mattered too much in terms
of gross income -- or is there something I'm missing? But I know
copyediting is sometimes more *fun* than indexing and makes a great change
of pace....
I do know my record-keeping regarding billable hours has been a bit less
than formal, since I've been charging my regular clients at a per-page
rate. That minimizes the amount of timekeeping you have to do (except for
your own illumination...). I've been experimenting with SIDEKICK and
SCHEDULE+97 for that purpose, which are already on my system.
>I also highly recommend writing up a business plan and reviewing it at
>least once a year. Come to think of it, I don't know that we've ever
>discussed on Index-L how to write up a business plan. I'd be curious to
>know how others did it.
Yeah, I've researching business plans for a couple months and not having
much luck -- all the books and examples I see are for marketers of
*things*, not brain-workers in front of a terminal. Would someone out there
like to write up an essay on "How I Wrote My Indexing Business Plan" and
post it on the list? And maybe to the ASI web site??
>Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
>Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
>Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
>http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
Thanks for the replies, everyone----------
Mike
Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services
mksmith1@swbell.net smith_editorial@hotmail.com
http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:02:52 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Stephanie Olivo <SBO12441@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters
Joanne,
I'm behind on reading my e-mail. Thanks for responding about which person I
should try to contact at a publishing co.
Stephanie
SBO12441@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:29:08 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Craig Brown <LastWord@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: FPO
I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations.
I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration
or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me
what that means?
(Not an important question. Just driving me nuts.)
Craig Brown
The Last Word=
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:38:48 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Susan Wilkerson <Bookindexr@AOL.COM>
Subject: AOL Book Indexer Chat Room
Hi everyone,
It looks like the best time of the week to officially meet would be Monday
night at 8:30 Central Time. However I would like to have a meeting tomorrow
night, Tuesday at 8:30, if anyone can make it, to get your input on various
questions that have come to mind such as:
1. Should we meet in a private room to keep kids and trouble makers out? The
room at the bottom is a private room. Just add it to your Favorite Places
list after you click on it. If you want to invite a friend just E-mail the
heart to them form your Favorite Places list. Of course this chat room should
be open to anyone that is interesting in indexing.
2. How often do you want to meet? If there is enough interest maybe we should
meet twice a week once in the mornings and once in the evening. I think the
afternoons should be out because of the time zone changes. People will be
picking up there kids after school anywhere from 1:00 - 4:00 Central Time. I
felt that the first meeting should be at night because a lot of people that
are just starting out in indexing still work outside there homes.
3. Any suggestions about how to set up a chat room for non AOL indexer. I
have been following up Johnathan's suggestion of the ICQ messaging system. It
looks good to me. They are not charging right now but I think they will be in
the future but it may be worth it if enough people are interested and they
don't charge much. Now is the time to try it while they don't charge to see
if it will work. The only problem I see so far is I don't believe they have
come out with a Mac version of the program. I have sent them an E-mail to
find out when it will be out.
If you can't meet tomorrow or you are not an AOL member and have suggestions
to the above or anything else, E-mail them to me. I will mention it to
everyone for you. I have been going round and round trying to figure this out
by myself. :)
If Monday night or the time is definitely out for you let me know.
Susan Wilkerson
BookIndexr
Click here to go to the room > <A HREF="aol://2719:2-2-Book%20Indexers%20Ch
at">Book Indexers Chat</A>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:51:18 -0300
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nancy Anderman Guenther <nanguent@CHESCO.COM>
Subject: Re: FPO
Hi Craig,
Not absolutely certain -- but I think it is "For position only" in
other words the final graphic might still have some revision to content
or quality but you can expect the graphic to be at that spot.
Nancy Guenther
nanguent@chesco.com
Craig Brown wrote:
> I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations.
> I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration
> or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me
> what that means?
>
> (Not an important question. Just driving me nuts.)
>
> Craig Brown
> The Last Word=
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:21:19 LCL
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Victoria Baker <vbaker@PACIFIC.NET>
Subject: Re: FPO
In-Reply-To: <199709090132.SAA13353@pacific.net>
Craig asks:
>I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations.
>I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration
>or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me
>what that means?
For Position Only. Meaning that whatever is there is a rough approximation
and not the correct computer file, or that it will be cut in by the printer
(old style), or whatever.
Victoria
vbaker@pacific.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:01:17 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question
In-Reply-To: <199709081550.IAA07605@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
At 11:52 AM 9/8/97 -0400, Seth wrote:
>techndex@pacbell.net writes:
>
> [Y]ou can put multiple entries within the same marker box by
> separating them with a semicolon (;) up to a maximum character limit of 255
> characters. Don't put any spaces to either side of the semicolon. However,
> I do not recommend this technique because it makes editing such entries
> more difficult.
>
>I completely disagree with that last sentence (and agree with Peg).
>I think it makes much more sense to have the markers as combined as possible,
>because otherwise you are burdening the text with marker after marker.
>
>I think there are three reasons. First, if you have a lot of markers, you
have
>less and less space to create them (assuming you don't want them adjacent,
>which I think we all agree is just bad :-).
>You start tossing in cross postings
>one word at a time, until you can have as many as five or six index markers
>at the first five of six words of the sentence. If anyone is every going to
>edit this material when you are done with it, you have just made life
>very difficult for them; remember that it is very easy to accidentally delete
>markers.
Seth,
First of all, my aversion to creating multiple entries in one marker began
with version 4 where you had to scroll to see subsequent entries in the
box. (Note page 24-10 of the version 4 manual.) When I moved with my
clients to version 5, Frame5+SGML, and FrameBuilder, I retained the habit.
Also, regardless of the version, are you sure that you'll always remember
to toggle page numbers on again if you've made page-numbered entries
subsequent to a <$nopage> entry? If you don't, happy editing. However, it's
not really all that much of a biggie in later versions unless you run afoul
of the building block toggling mentioned above and the <$startrange>
<$endrange> bug mentioned below. However, I do want to address certain
points where I disagree with you.
I took great pains to explain "stacking" the markers at precisely the same
location. This would not at all result in a sprinkling of markers
throughout the first few words of a sentence--something I NEVER do!!!!!
This does *not* result in multiple "T's", but one "T", as I explained in my
first post. This does not "burden the text" with markers, nor have I ever
run out of space for creating them because FrameMaker conserves that space
by "stacking" them and seems to be capable of doing so infinitely.
In fact, I have the style guide to a big software company before me which
specifically addresses index marker placement in FrameMaker. The proper
locations are specified to the character (and happen to be the same that I
mention below). While you can concatenate entries separated by semicolons
in a single marker, this quickly becomes impossible when you're creating
<$nopage> See and See also references (which, IAW the style guide, all go
in precisely the same place for the entire book). You can only put so many
in one marker because the building blocks and the forced sorting string for
the See alsos use up characters. So guess what? Your markers are going to
stack, precisely as I said above.
If an entry is relevant to everything that comes under a heading, it goes
before the paragraph mark ending the heading. If it's relevant to an entire
paragraph, it goes before the first character of the paragraph. Only if it
is relevant to a sentence or two within the paragraph does it go somewhere
within the body of the paragraph and then it's before the first character
of the relevant sentence. As I see it, this makes it far easier for anyone
who later has to edit the text. If the heading is deleted, all of the
relevant markers can easily be deleted with it and on downward in the scope
of the deletion. This is a consistent pattern I follow throughout a book
with this possibility specifically in mind. I would also assume that
someone editing the text would have it zoomed large enough where they can
easily avoid markers they don't want to delete, otherwise they're going to
have fun getting the insertion point where they want it. I have yet to hear
any complaints from any clients for whom I've delivered embedded indexes
about these techniques. And yes, while I gave input into creating the above
style guide, I gave none about marker placement. They came up with those
specifications on their own.
I guess I've just had to index too many previously indexed books where I've
had to strip markers out of some chapters, but not others, then forgot to
check for markers in a file before I started embedding, and wound up having
to generate an index for that chapter and delete the markers from the
previous index while sparing mine. When they are all contained in a few
markers, I end up in the second half of the index clicking on links that no
longer exist because I've already deleted the markers but forgot which
ones. I hate that. I also hate having to read through a gazillion entries
in one marker box to find the one I have to change even without having to
scroll. This increases the likelihood of introducing still more errors that
need to be corrected, especially when tired and hard up on a deadline.
Plus, I don't know if Adobe got rid of the bug that version 4 had, but in
that version <$startrange> and <$endrange> markers worked only erratically
when included in a marker with other entries. And I'm not the only one who
has discovered this bug. That's yet more editing when it rears its ugly head.
>
>Second, you may want to make changes without having to use the Find dialog
>of the hypertext linking from the final index. Sometimes you want to look
>through the pages of the document to find where you know those index markers
>are. But if when you get there you suddenly find eight of them on the page,
>all next to each other, how do you know which marker you are looking for?
Many times (before going to the cut/paste from the page-order sort method
of embedding) I've made changes to marker text without hyperlinking from
the generated index. However, I haven't found occasionally opening the Find
box, if not already open, to be a problem. Keyboard commands do it rapidly
on the extremely rare occasions I have to edit a marker at all (usually
only a misplaced marker). If you think opening the Find box is troublesome,
try your hand at embedding in Frame5+SGML where you also have to go into an
Elements dialog for every blasted marker that you create. ;-D Anyway, I
find selecting those little buggers to read the marker text far more
tedious than simply rapidly clicking to the right one in the Find box
(which can go forward or backward). (I do first go, by scrolling or by page
number, to its near vicinity.) When you have them zoomed large enough to
select easily, then you have so little text visible on the screen that you
have to spend more time with tedious scrolling when you want to move onward.
However, it seems that you are much more likely to want to a change marker
text if you don't create the index first in dedicated indexing software.
That is only *one* of the reasons I create my indexes in dedicated indexing
software first where I can much more easily edit it to my satisfaction as a
*finished* product. I then embed by cutting and pasting from the page-order
sort to eliminate the likelihood of typos and unmerged page ranges. If you
are indexing by embedding directly, then it is not at all surprising that
our work methods are quite different because you'd have to edit markers far
more than I do. ;-D
>In addition, if you are trying to manually select the markers (instead of
>using the hypertext of the Find dialog), having several markers makes this
>a bit more challenging.
Which is why I don't manually select markers. I did that a few times in the
very first index I embedded in FrameMaker, then abandoned it for the Find
dialog. Furthermore, if you're not editing the marker by hyperlinking to
it, you're usually editing it because you made a mistake, clicked the
marker box button, and said ooops. So it's usually the last marker you
entered that you want to change. Well, all you have to do is move the
cursor one character ahead, click Find (backwards) and you have it on the
first click with no sweat. Sometimes I work with the Find dialog constantly
open because it will rapidly get me to the start or end of a page range
without having to scroll. But then I have a 17" monitor for extra screen
real estate and use keyboard commands if I need to open a menu obscured by
the Find dialog. YMMV.
>
>Third, if you are making global changes and you only have to change four
>markers instead of sixteen, it's easier -- at least until FrameMaker realizes
>that sometimes people want to globally find/replace marker text. :-)
Right. The global find/replace marker text function doesn't work, though
the dialog initially led me to believe that it could. But again, this isn't
necessary when the index is created first in dedicated indexing software
and a cut/paste method is used. Every time that I didn't create an index
first dedicated indexing software, thinking I would save some time, I've
seriously regretted it because of the increased time spent in editing,
which this is mainly about. That's aside from the fact that the quality of
an index totally produced by embedding is immensely more difficult to
achieve when "indexing in the dark" in FrameMaker.
Lynn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:50:16 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Taxes
In-Reply-To: <199709090417.XAA05855@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken
>yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my
>expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D )
Kara, it doesn't sound like you're going to be paying any taxes on your
income *at all*, let alone have to pay them quarterly.
I earned considerably more than nothing last year (grin), but I, too, had
big expenditures, so my accountant told me not to bother filing quarterly
this year. As soon as you can possibly afford it, I recommend that you get
an accountant. Mine saved me a lot of money these past two years I've used
him.
Cheers,
Carol
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:02:04 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: FPO
In-Reply-To: <199709090143.SAA20802@mail-gw3.pacbell.net>
Whew!! I'm so glad Craig asked that question and Nancy and Victoria
answered. It's bugged me for years, especially being that the first thing
that always jumped to mind was "Fleet Post Office". ;-D
Lynn
<who had an FPO in her address for years>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:49:56 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Liza Weinkove <liza.weinkove@ZEN.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dublin Conference
We had an excellent conference in Dublin - but I haven't got time to write
about it now. I'll try to find time in the next couple of days.
Liza Weinkove
e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:55:55 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Shuttleworth <ChristineShuttleworth@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed!
David Robert Austen wrote:
This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are
> sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever=
?
> I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work
> myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade tha=
t
> book in for groceries.
David (or should I say David Robert?) is obviously of the same mind as
Samuel Johnson, who said: "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for
money." However, I think that the good doctor had his tongue in his cheek=
when he said that.
If David R. can't see why one might sometimes perform a service for no
reward, I don't think I can explain it to him. Keep on scratching your he=
ad
there, D.R.
Christine
*************************************************************************=
*
Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services
Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB
Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797
email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com
or 106234.1745@compuserve.com
*************************************************************************=
*
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:20:54 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Stephanie Olivo <SBO12441@AOL.COM>
Subject: query sheet & software
Good evening,
I just have a couple of quick questions:
1. What is a query sheet & how does one prepare it?
2. As a re-entering indexer who has no capital at the moment, can I get by
with Word 95 for at least one or two indexes or should I really try to come
up with the money for a good software program as I try to get re-established?
Thanks
Stephanie
SBO12441@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:12:42 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Shuttleworth <ChristineShuttleworth@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Society of Indexers meeting
Janet Perlman writes:
<For those of us who didn't have the opportunity to attend your (Society =
of
Indexers) annual conference in Dublin last week, how was it? If anybody
would care to post any impressions, summaries, etc, here, it would be mos=
t
interesting.>
I would, but have lost my glasses on the way back from Dublin, and have t=
wo
indexes to finish...
Christine
*************************************************************************=
*
Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services
Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB
Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797
email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com
or 106234.1745@compuserve.com
*************************************************************************=
*
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:27:01 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free)
Dear Christine:
You wrote: (in part)
>>If David R. can't see why one might sometimes perform a service for no
>>reward, I don't think I can explain it to him.
----
Christine, I think I already explained my point of view in an earlier
posting, but I'd better try to clarify my comments, since there is
another distinct waft of an attack here this morning.
I'll hope that readers will understand my reply today as a generic
comment about certain distortions in the "economy of vounteerism,"
especially as it affects our creative professions. It is often promoted
by the academy.
In reply to your comment, I certainly _can_ understand why someone would
_sometimes_ perform services without pay. Why would you suggest
otherwise? Please be fair.
I do make some important distinctions in performing services as a
volunteer. And I admit these are fuzzy ones at times. I hesitate before
supporting ordinary commercial operations (or even officially registered
"nonprofit" entities) which solicit my professional labors without
offering any recompense, enticing me to give away what I must normally
trade, in order to make a living. That damages the market value of what
I and others must sell to support our families. Yes, I know it is often
called "paying the dues." But I've found that most clients have always
had a lot more respect for my successes in that part of the marketplace
where I have to compete with lots of professionals fighting for a sale.
My support of community efforts, like my church or youth groups, as a
volunteer is rarely related to my profession. I enjoy volunteering when
I discover an opportunity to help in the community: leading young people
on hikes, decorating the church or helping in fundraising drives to buy
playground equipment etc.
I may be all wrong about this, or just a little wrong. I'll take that
chance. And as I mull over such matters, I promise to keep on scratching
my head. Thank you for the chuckles with the quote from Samuel Johnson.
Still, I have no reason to think that he had his tongue in his cheek
when he wrote, "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money."
Best,
David
-----
Christine Shuttleworth wrote:
>
> David Robert Austen wrote:
>
> This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are
> > sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever=
> ?
> > I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work
> > myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade tha=
> t
> > book in for groceries.
>
> David (or should I say David Robert?) is obviously of the same mind as
> Samuel Johnson, who said: "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for
> money." However, I think that the good doctor had his tongue in his cheek=
>
> when he said that.
>
> If David R. can't see why one might sometimes perform a service for no
> reward, I don't think I can explain it to him. Keep on scratching your he=
> ad
> there, D.R.
>
> Christine
>
> *************************************************************************=
> *
> Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services
> Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB
> Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797
> email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com
> or 106234.1745@compuserve.com
> *************************************************************************=
> *
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:43:41 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: WordenDex@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: AOL Book Indexer Chat Room
Susan,
FYI, clicking on "Book Indexers Chat" brings up an error message, "Invalid
room name."
Diane Worden
Kalamazoo, Mich.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:57:07 +0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Mary Mortensen <mmortensen@ONE800.NET>
Subject: ASI Kansas-Missouri group meeting
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS
Kansas-Missouri Group
The next meeting of the Kansas-Missouri group will be held on Saturday, October
11, 1997, from 1:00
to 4:00 p.m.
Location: Columbia Public Library
Friends Meeting Room
100 W. Broadway
Columbia, Missouri
Topics:
1. Running a freelance business (roundtable discussion)
2. Editing book indexes (roundtable discussion)
3. Report on the 1997 Annual Conference (Winston-Salem)
There will also be a short business meeting. For more information and
directions, please contact
me.
--
* Mary Mortensen * mmortensen@one800.net
* Lawrence, Kansas, USA * marymort@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:00:17 +0000
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Barbara Stroup <indexa2z@THE-SPA.COM>
Subject: Mass. fall conference
Due to an unexpected space crunch at the Westin Hotel and to the high number
of registrations already received, the Mass. Chapter announces that
registration for our September 27 workshop will close on Friday. If you have
not mailed in your registration, we hope you will join us at a future event,
and we thank all who responded so quickly and enthusiastically to our
program. Please contact Barbara Stroup for information on the "Facing the
Text" workshop (Do Mi Stauber, presenter) in November.
******************************************
Note correct address: 297 Fountain St. Springfield MA 01108
phone: 413 785-1835 and e:mail indexa2z@the-spa.com
and please correct your ASI Membership Directory and Indexer Locator!!
*******************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:13:10 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free)
In-Reply-To: <199709091428.HAA12016@mx2.u.washington.edu>
I agree with David that academia in particular often abuses volunteerism.
The view within it goes back to the good old days when academics were all
independently wealthy and there were certain things gentlemen did not do,
i.e., send a bill. While times have changed, the elitist attitude of those
in academic power has not. Yes, by all means, let us continue to support
small presses, to provide reviews that are nothing more than exchanges for
free books, etc., but when a cooperative volunteerism crosses the line
into exploitation, the bill should follow. And besides, how many of us
provide free academic indexes for books? Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:35:09 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments
In-Reply-To: <199709090417.XAA05855@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>Copyediting vs. indexing: I've always charged roughly the same amount per
>page of print-to-be-read, so I don't think it's mattered too much in terms
>of gross income -- or is there something I'm missing? But I know
>copyediting is sometimes more *fun* than indexing and makes a great change
>of pace....
Alas, all my clients paid a set hourly rate, one that was nowhere near what
I can make indexing. Sounds like *I'm* the one who's missing something! ;-)
This is not to say I wouldn't do copyediting for other types of clients.
Anybody listening?
Copyediting more fun? Hm. Except for the clean-up, which I detest.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:35:09 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: FPO
In-Reply-To: <199709090417.XAA05855@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations.
>I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration
>or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me
>what that means?
For placement only. In other words, hold this space for an illustration,
which the printer will insert at the proper time.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:11:16 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sarah H Lemaire <shl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Capitalization in Cross-References
In-Reply-To: <199709091516.AA10923@world.std.com>
I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30
software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also"
cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have
collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S.
Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an uppercase
S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct!
Obviously, if the client insists, I'll comply. I sometimes figure it's
part of my job to point out style standards for indexes but to do what
they want anyway.
Sarah
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:12:14 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Frank Stearns <franks@FSATOOLS.COM>
Subject: Notes about Indexing in FrameMaker
A few notes about FrameMaker markers --
They are indeed a bit tricky to work with. One way to perform deletions is
to use the search engine's ability to look for markers, then cut or delete
the found marker.
As far as multiple index entries per marker, no problem -- use the
semicolon to separate entries. Whether you want multiple entries per
marker is a personal choice, but there is a 255 character limit for
each marker. Usually, one marker per entry is easiest for many people.
In terms of document integrity, you can "stack" as many markers as needed
in one place. These do not affect the text in any way. The overhead is
there, but it is so trivial as to be hardly noticeable.
Now for a very brief commercial: The FrameMaker marker system is quite
good and delightfully flexible, but the interface is atrocious. That's why
we came up with a product called IXgen. IXgen is a set of tools for
accessing and creating FrameMaker markers.
The maintenance tools let you quickly (and in bulk) edit marker text,
either in textual context or in the context of an alphabetically sorted
list. Permutations can be made, along with capitalization unification. The
creation tools provide good starting points but are NOT concordance tools
(unless you force them into this mode). The upshot is that YOU are still
in charge of indexing in FrameMaker, it's just that the mechanics have
been made so much more simple.
About to enter its fourth year, IXgen has won much praise from current
users. For more information, including demos, please visit our web page.
+ -- T O L L F R E E ( I n U S A ) : 8 0 0 / 5 6 7 - 6 4 2 1 -- +
+ --------------------------------------------------------------------- +
| Frank Stearns Associates | Developers of Tools for FrameMaker(r): |
| mailto:franks@fsatools.com | IXgen, FM2A, Programmable Export Kit |
| 360/892-3970 fx:360/253-1498 | Now shipping IXgen for Windows!! |
+ --------------------------------------------------------------------- +
| http://www.pacifier.com/~franks (Email if web page access problems) |
+ --------------------------------------------------------------------- +
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:17:11 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Seth A. Maislin" <seth@ORA.COM>
Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question
In-Reply-To: techndex@pacbell.net "Re: Another FrameMaker question" (Sep 8,
7:01pm)
It appears that both Lynn and I have some solid preferences regarding the
placement of FrameMaker markers. Have you noticed? :-)
I think the difference between our approaches is directly related to
*where* we index, not how we index or what the embedded files look like
when we're done. My FrameMaker indexing happens during the process of the
writing itself, Frame; Lynn tends to create the index someplace different and
then "rewrite" the markers into otherwise completed files.
When the index is written separately -- and a lot of indexers, who love their
indexing software, prefer this method -- you get a chance to fine-tune the
text of each entry way in advance. In my case, there is no index until I
start to type markers, and the index isn't visible to me until I generate it
using FrameMaker (which is why indexers prefer indexing software in the first
place). In my case, then, I am constantly editing marker text, and so it's
important for me to be able to locate the markers easily. Also, because the
book is being written, markers are occasionally moved around without my
knowledge, or else the text of the markers needs to be updated to reflect new
writing decisions.
This is never more obvious than when a new edition of a book is in production
and contains the shattered remnants of an index I wrote. Some markers are
missing because headers moved. My end markers are destroyed because of global
formatting changes. Text is inaccurate because language has changed. Ranges
have become single-page entries or vice versa. Maybe even a <$startrange> or
<$endrange> marker has been moved into another chapter, making a page range
across eight chapters or even reversing the order. All of these things happen
because the markers are *embedded*, which means they go wherever the text goes.
When a book is rewritten, the markers shift, and this is disastrous.
Lynn hints that when she works on a book that has some index markers in it
already, she deleted them all. :-) Sometimes I do the same, to avoid the
trouble of correcting index marker placement for an out-of-date index.
I will say that having never worked with older versions of FrameMaker (which
means I have never experienced the bug Lynn mentions, or the unscrollable
marker window), I don't have the old die-hard habits. I still prefer the
multiple entries within each marker, though, because I like to stay out of
the text window as much as possible. I can't afford the huge windows on my
monitor because I need to be reading several paragraphs at once (since I'm
still writing the entries), so the text tends to be small and hard
to navigate. I also think it's easier to make several edits in one index marker
than in another, because entries are often grouped together in concept.
If I had to make only occasional edits because of misspellings, as Lynn does,
then I would prefer her approach: to keep things as sparse as possible to
make misspellings stand out.
- Seth
--
Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN
O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services
90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street
Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826
(617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428
(617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com
URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN
Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:17:37 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Jaffe <birdfixer@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: beginner
Hello to all. I am currently enrolled in the USDA Graduate School's
Basic Indexing course and was wondering if others on the list had
started with this program. Unfortunately, I seem to be on the two-year
plan, and keep forgetting what I've learned. I must say that most of
what I've read on this list server has been way over my head. I would
love to hear any suggestions on further education, helpful books, etc. I
am a Respiratory Therapist and have worked in the medical field for ten
years, and hope to find work indexing medical textbooks. Do most
Indexers specialize? I would also like to know, for future reference,
what software is good for Windows 95. Thanks.
Linda Jaffe
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:48:33 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: How about if we just give you a book?
Dear ones,
I still scratch my head when I think about accepting a book as the sole
payment for hours of labor reading and writing.
I'm not (yet?) an indexer, but in the more than 20 years of my own
dealings, publishers have very rarely refused to give me a free copy of
the book that I requested, _always in addition_ to normal payment for
services rendered.
I can say free book because neither party has ever considered it any
kind of recompense. It's in their budget be able to give sample books
away. Remember that eventually other copies of the book will need to be
remaindered or even eventually shredded. Sad, but true.
This is just to give indexers another perspective on the world of
publishing, from my one small window on that world.
Jeeesh! My contribution has got to be pretty much the same value as
yours. What's a book review or an index worth? Don't these help sell
more books? I hated finding a book without an index, even before I met
all of you helpful folks. And I love reading a good book review.
I also love the idea of a world of many small businesses (much like my
own) and I like to support them, usually by buying their works and then
telling all I know about their excellent products. That's just my way of
supporting a business, of course. And I don't know how to write a
review, I'll confess.
David
_____
P. Buell wrote:
>
> I agree with David that academia in particular often abuses volunteerism.
> The view within it goes back to the good old days when academics were all
> independently wealthy and there were certain things gentlemen did not do,
> i.e., send a bill. While times have changed, the elitist attitude of those
> in academic power has not. Yes, by all means, let us continue to support
> small presses, to provide reviews that are nothing more than exchanges for
> free books, etc., but when a cooperative volunteerism crosses the line
> into exploitation, the bill should follow. And besides, how many of us
> provide free academic indexes for books? Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:59:34 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject: Reference book of interest to indexers
I am forwarding this from a mailing I received this morning from
Amazon.com's Editor's series on books for writers. I have not looked at
this book yet and I DO NOT work for Amazon.com, just buy books from them
from time to time. The book sounds interesting because of the different
glossaries and other words grouped by subject category. It might prove to
be useful in certain indexing situations.
I thought many of you would find it interesting to know about this book,
that's all.
********
The principal title reviewed in this Expert Editors
message is:
"A Writer's Companion"
by Louis D. Rubin Jr.,editor
Publisher: HarperCollins
You can find this book and more at
http://www.amazon.com/reference
******
Desk space is always a limited, and therefore precious,
commodity. Bookshelves can be reshuffled, but books
that usurp desk space must really earn their salt. A
dictionary and thesaurus, an atlas, style guide, and
almanac--these were the books I kept within arm's
reach. But now I've rearranged my desk to make room for
one more: Louis D. Rubin Jr.'s "A Writer's Companion."
In "A Writer's Companion," now in paperback, Rubin
produced a rare work of reference, a giant of its genre
in compact form. It's so practical that I wonder how I
eked along before I had it. The 66 categories run the
gamut of topics that might interest writers, editors,
fact-checkers, teachers, cross-word puzzlers, and
insomniacs. There's a glossary of watercraft and
another on firearms, a run-down on famous trains, plus
popular songs, rock performers, current slang, epic
heroes and heroines, a glossary of literary and
critical terms, and popular radio shows. There's also a
category of Native American tribes, a glossary of
economic lingo, a guide to famous animals, a list of
baseball pennant contenders, plus still more glossaries
of scientific, psychoanalytic, legal, philosophical,
and gastronomic terms. There's just about everything
you could wish to keep your writing (and discourse)
accurate and erudite.
Each individual's needs are different, but some of the
chapters impressed me right off. "The Guide to Ruins"
is excellently done, and the chronological list of
historic battles and campaigns is especially useful for
those of us who can never keep straight what happened
in Megiddo, Aix-en-Provence, Midway, and Chechnya. I'm
also grateful for the chapter on treaties spanning the
agreements from the 843 Treaty of Verdun to the 1994
Israel-Jordan Treaty.
I like that "Some Famous Novels" includes principal
characters and settings, greatly simplifying the task
of finding Doctor Zhivago's full name (Dr. Yurii
Andreievich Zhivago), or remembering that Betsy
Trotwood and Mr. Murdstone were from "David
Copperfield." Reading about slang is also interesting:
it's instructive to learn that the insult "asshole"
dates back to 1350-1400, while "baby-sitter" didn't
originate until 1945-1950 (indicative of when the need
for those terms arose?). "Major Religions of the World"
is another gem. It's hard enough to keep the holy
people of one's own religion straight, but included
here are the major holy days, personages, and rites of
passage for Protestantism, Catholicism, the Eastern
Orthodox Church, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism,
Shinto, and Chinese Folk Religion.
In his preface, Rubin explains why he undertook this
book. Having written and edited for 60 years (plus
founding Algonquin Books and teaching English), Rubin
knew the sort of book he'd always craved: an eclectic
compilation of time lines, lists, and glossaries in one
desk-sized volume. Upon retiring, Rubin commenced the
reference book of his dreams. The result is a book that
will easily win one of your coveted desk spots, filling
both literally and figuratively the gaps left by your
dictionary, thesaurus, and almanac.
--Stephanie Gold freelances from a small office in San
Francisco, where bookshelves and desk space are at a
premium.
You'll find Stephanie's favorite reference books on the
shelves of Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/reference
******
If you have friends who might enjoy this mailing,
please feel free to forward it to them. To become a new
Editors subscriber, or to sign up for additional
categories, visit http://www.amazon.com/editors
******
*****************************************
Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer
cbertel@usit.net
Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html
*****************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:07:12 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Mark Dempsey <MARKD@MICHIE.COM>
Subject: Capitalization in Cross-References -Reply
SARAH, neither upper nor lower case S(s)ee is inherently correct. It
should not really matter as long as all S(s)ee references are done
consistently. Whether the S(s) is capped or not really relevant to the
purpose the index is supposed to serve, directing index users to the
material contained in the manual.
>>> Sarah H Lemaire <shl@WORLD.STD.COM> 09/09/97 12:11pm >>>
I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30
software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also"
cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have
collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S.
Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an
uppercase
S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct!
Obviously, if the client insists, I'll comply. I sometimes figure it's part of
my
job to point out style standards for indexes but to do what they want
anyway.
Sarah
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:09:49 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lindsay Gower <lindsay@PERSISTENCE.COM>
Subject: Re: Notes about Indexing in FrameMaker
As a satisfied customer, I'd like to comment on Frank's mention of his
product IXgen. I suggested it to my department after *many* people at the
STC conference recommended it. We use it now and are pleased with the time
saved both creating and edited indexes in FrameMaker.
The biggest advantages to IXgen are not having to use the miniscule little
marker window Frame provides, and being able to create an editable list of
entries. You don't have to search through a long string on entries in the
window to find what you're looking for. Using IXgen solved for us a lot of
the problems that have been discussed in this whole thread of "Indexing in
FrameMaker."
-- LG
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com
Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606
Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432
1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com
San Mateo, CA USA 94402 |
----------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:12:54 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lindsay Gower <lindsay@PERSISTENCE.COM>
Subject: Re: Capitalization in Cross-References
At 12:11 PM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30
>software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also"
>cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have
>collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S.
>
>Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an uppercase
>S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct!
>
This will certainly depend on the style for capitalization. For example, in
our documentation, we only capitalize product names. Since nearly
everything is lower case, so is see and see also. Personally, I'd be more
likely to put them in lowercase even if the entry were uppercase, but
that's a subjective response.
-- LG
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com
Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606
Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432
1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com
San Mateo, CA USA 94402 |
----------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:46:13 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Jane E Stoyle <jestoyle@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: FPO
In-Reply-To: <199709090132.VAA10809@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Craig,
FPO near an illustration means "For Position Only" - it is a printers
term, and is used when a photocopy of artwork/photograph is included in
the hard copy, and the printer is to replace it with original
artwork/photograph prior to printing the book.
Jane Stoyle
NCEER Publications Manager
e-mail: jestoyle@acsu.buffalo.edu
Phone: 716-645-3391
Fax: 716-645-3399
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Craig Brown wrote:
> I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations.
> I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration
> or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me
> what that means?
>
> (Not an important question. Just driving me nuts.)
>
> Craig Brown
> The Last Word=
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:47:40 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Elinor Lindheimer <elinorl@MCN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free)
To all.
I must come out of semi-hibernation to comment on the "work for free"
debate. BRIEF ENTRY is a publication by a group of indexers, for indexers,
to help all learn about issues in indexing the law throughout the world. As
such, it is little different from the ASI newsletter, KEY WORDS, except
that it is not supported by ASI or SI, etc. It expects to meet its expenses
by selling subscriptions and advertisements. If it does indeed meet
expenses yet, I will be surprised. I'm sure Betty Moys can enlighten us
about that!
If professional indexers were not willing to give of themselves, to
volunteer, in support of their organization and for the benefit of all,
there would be no indexing societies, no local chapters, no newsletters...
Some who serve in these organizations receive reimbursement for their
expenses incurred, but it is never enough to cover all the money spent, and
it is never reimbursement for time. In this way, it is no different from
local community organizations. This is a community of indexers, and the
more we give to each other, the more we get in return.
Elinor Lindheimer
Past President
American Society of Indexers
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:12:27 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Pauline Sholtys <PSholtys@GROLIER.COM>
Subject: Capitalization in Cross-References - Reply
In response to Sarah H Lemaire, who says, "I'm trying to politely convince
my new client...to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also"
cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have
collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S"--
Sarah,
At Grolier we use lowercase "s" for our "see" and "see also" references
in all our encyclopedia indexes. Also, Hans Wellisch, in "Indexing from
A to Z," uses lowercase "s" in the section about cross-references, and
in all the examples throughout the book. I personally think the lowercase
looks better if there is no punctuation preceding; if the publisher wants,
say, a period preceding the "see," then an uppercase "s" would look better.
(Compare "Clemens, Samuel see Twain, Mark" and "Clemens, Samuel. See Twain,
Mark.")
Pauline Sholtys
psholtys@grolier.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:23:55 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Capitalization in Cross-References -Reply
At 01:07 PM 9/9/97 -0400, Mark Dempsey wrote:
>SARAH, neither upper nor lower case S(s)ee is inherently correct. It
>should not really matter as long as all S(s)ee references are done
>consistently. Whether the S(s) is capped or not really relevant to the
>purpose the index is supposed to serve, directing index users to the
>material contained in the manual.
The only time I'd find a lower-case "s" a real problem is when the "See" or
"See also" reference is preceded by a period, as it is in many indexing styles:
Bears. See Polar bears
Bears, 123, 321. See also Polar bears
However, in a setup like this, it wouldn't matter to me:
Bears See polar bears
Bears
see Polar bears
Bears, 123, 321
see also Polar bears
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:23:06 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: ASI Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Fall Workshop
Hi, I would like very much to attend the Fall Workshop---the program is
just what I would like. However, I'll be out on the west coast at the time.
Please let me know if there are any handouts I could send for, or a a
syllabus, perhaps. Please keep me informed of future workshops, conferences,
etc. Thanks, Thelda Bertram
TBrtrm@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:55:25 -0500
Reply-To: sdhdis@mail2.theonramp.net
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Susan Danzi Hernandez <sdhdis@MAIL2.THEONRAMP.NET>
Subject: Re: Beginner
Linda,
I am also taking the USDA course. I think it is big on mechanics, but
small on the thought processes involved in indexing. I checked out two
books from the library (it was a very large library that had these) -
"Indexing From A to Z" by Hans Wellisch and "The Art of Indexing" by Larry
S. Bonura. Both had many helpful points and guidelines. The Bonura book
even has a section called "Eight steps to creating an index."
As far as Win95 software goes, many people have kindly answered my
recent query about that subject. The bottom line is that Sky Index
(http://www.sky-software.com) and Cindex (http://www.indexres.com) will
both release professional Win95 versions in the next few months. Both are
well regarded. Several of the replies I got also said that, for someone
planning to become a professional indexer, the lower priced softwares are
not up to the task.
Susan D. Hernandez
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:12:50 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal"
<macmia@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Beginner
I'm another beginner, another USDA student, another Win95 user, and also
wondering about indexing software. Right now I'm leaning towards Macrex,
because they offer a $200 discount to USDA (and other) students, and in
my impoverished state that pretty much tips the balance. Does anyone
know if they have plans to release a Win95 version any time in the
future? I do not think I will be buying the software anytime soon, since
I'm only on lesson #3 and who knows, I might turn out to really stink at
indexing and the money would be wasted. As I'm proceeding at the rate of
about a lesson a month, I don't anticipate buying this software for at
least another 8-10 months (if ever).
Maria McNeal
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:15:12 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sanindex@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: ASI Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Fall Workshop
You are on our mailing list at present. We will be cleaning that list the
first of the year. But we will be offering a newsletter suscription by that
time. Do Mi will be giving her presentation in several other places, but I do
not have a listing. Sandi
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:18:21 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Beginner
At 02:12 PM 9/9/97 -0600, Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal wrote:
>I'm another beginner, another USDA student, another Win95 user, and also
>wondering about indexing software. Right now I'm leaning towards Macrex,
>because they offer a $200 discount to USDA (and other) students, and in
>my impoverished state that pretty much tips the balance. Does anyone
>know if they have plans to release a Win95 version any time in the
>future?
It's my understanding that a Win95 version is not coming anytime soon,
Maria, but I'm a very satisfied Macrex user who operates the program in a
DOS window under Win95 absolutely flawlessly. And I just got a new interim
release which appears to speed things up even more with some emendations and
improvements.
You're smart to wait to buy any serious software until you've gotten far
enough along to know for sure that the investment will be what you want. As
you say, you may end up hating indexing, so why spend several hundred
dollars immediately if you don't absolutely need to?
I downloaded the Sky Index program from its website (not the professional
version, just the plain vanilla software) and was intrigued with its ease of
use and the Win95 interface it offers. For $99, it's quite adequate for the
occasional user--and might work nicely for you until you decide to take the
plunge on Macrex.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:25:16 LCL
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Victoria Baker <vbaker@PACIFIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free)
In-Reply-To: <199709091429.HAA19450@pacific.net>
David wrote:
>My support of community efforts, like my church or youth groups, as a
>volunteer is rarely related to my profession.
and Paul wrote:
>And besides, how many of us provide free academic indexes for books?
Ah! There is the nub of what has troubled me about the concern of its
being volunteer work in this instance. I too have heard of the courtesy
never to ask a professional to volunteer for what she or he does for a
living. But what was being requested was not free indexing services, but a
review of a book, the review to be written by someone qualified to review
it, in this case an indexer. This is not then a case of free professional
work, but a development of professional knowledge/standards, etc., which
journals for professions specialize in. As soon as indexers are as moneyed
and powerful as M.D.s I will expect recompense for writing in our journals
and newsletters. Until then, I consider it community service--in this
case, the community of indexers.
Best,
Victoria
vbaker@pacific.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:24:20 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free)
In-Reply-To: <199709092135.OAA27822@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Victoria: I guess the discussion wandered off. I write for newsletters all
the time and expect nothing in exchange. I completely agree with your
sentiments. Where I draw the line would be doing, for example, medical
abstracts for the National Library of Medicine gratis. A newsletter, a
journal that barely breaks even are peanuts, but there are some
publications out there that are very much for profit but will still try to
tap into volunteerism. I suspect that is where David really has his
gripes. And to respond to David's posting, the $245.00 book I got for my
last scholarly review was ample payment for two hours work on a topic
(Mongolian dictionaries) I love. The time before that I got another
valuable book I could never afford and before that a volume of Needham,
Science and Civilization in China, that I could certainly not afford. I am
happy with the present arrangement for academic reviews and and long as I
can choose my cause I am happy to volunteer. However, the for profit
journal (it was Ethology and Sociobiology, if anyone is interested) that
did not so much as provide a printed copy of my article and tried
to bill me for reprints, ah, there lies the rub....... Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:26:09 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free)
Good point, Victoria.
Victoria Baker wrote:
>
> David wrote:
> >My support of community efforts, like my church or youth groups, as a
> >volunteer is rarely related to my profession.
>
> and Paul wrote:
> >And besides, how many of us provide free academic indexes for books?
>
> Ah! There is the nub of what has troubled me about the concern of its
> being volunteer work in this instance. I too have heard of the courtesy
> never to ask a professional to volunteer for what she or he does for a
> living. But what was being requested was not free indexing services, but a
> review of a book, the review to be written by someone qualified to review
> it, in this case an indexer. This is not then a case of free professional
> work, but a development of professional knowledge/standards, etc., which
> journals for professions specialize in. As soon as indexers are as moneyed
> and powerful as M.D.s I will expect recompense for writing in our journals
> and newsletters. Until then, I consider it community service--in this
> case, the community of indexers.
>
> Best,
> Victoria
>
> vbaker@pacific.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:24:05 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Pam Rider <prider@POWERGRID.ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Legal entry query
I am working on an index with numerous legal entries. The text has habeas
corpus in both italics and roman type. Can indexers who specialize in legal
work tell me if there is a correct type style or if either can fly?
TIA,
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@powergrid.electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:51:59 +1100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suzanne Eggins <S.Eggins@UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: moonlighting
I'd be grateful if some of those who started out as indexers while still
working in another fulltime job could share their experiences of the
double-life. In particular:
1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did
you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them?
Did you tell them what your main job was?
2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies
did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump"
into fulltime freelancing?
All advice (to me privately or to the list) gratefully appreciated.
Many thanks,
Suzanne Eggins
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:25:26 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carolyn Weaver <CGWeaver@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: moonlighting
In a message dated 97-09-09 20:53:17 EDT, you write:
I've been moonlighting since 1991, averaging 15-20 hours per week indexing in
addition to my full-time job as a medical librarian. Yes, it can be done,
particularly if you have don't need much sleep and are adept at juggling
work, freelance, and personal responsibilities.
<<
1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did
you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them?
Did you tell them what your main job was?
I've done a couple of mass mailings, have a listing in 'Indexer Services'
[formerly Index Locator], and use any other advertising medium that doesn't
involve an ethical conflict with my full time job. The important thing is NOT
to include your day job phone number, email address, title, or any other 'day
job' identification in your freelance ads. And also to let your employer
know about your outside career and to make sure they know that you are not
conducting an outside business on their time.
2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies
did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump"
into fulltime freelancing? >>
I have always let indexing clients know that I'm a moonlighter and made it
clear that my indexing is totally separate from my role as a librarian. For
instance, my clients know that I need a week per 200 pages of text and that
they need not call me when they need an index for a 400 page book in 48
hours. I simply can't handle it. The bulk of my indexing is done evenings
and weekends, and days off are a foreign concept when I'm on deadline. (The
longest stretch a couple of years ago was 8 months with exactly 2 days when I
wasn't indexing! Now I just enjoy the down time between indexes.) At the
same time, I may turn down projects during the period when I know the day job
is going to require extra hours to produce annual reports, grant requests,
etc., or when there are special things going on in my personal life (like
kids' high school graduation) that require Mom's involvement. It's all
juggling and knowing your own limits.
I've been moonlighting for 6 years, and it will probably be another 3-4
before I make the move to full time (until the last daughter is out of
college).
Carolyn Weaver
Weaver Indexing Service
Bellevue, WA.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:31:22 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Jacobs <cmjacobs@JOHNABBOTT.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book?
Although I agree that one wants to watch out against being exploited, I
think there is a fundamental difference between creating an index for a book
that will be sold for profit, and contributing a review to a journal that
while it may be sold, certainly will not make a profit. Most scholarly
journals are not run profitably.
I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the
invoice along with the amount owed.
I do occasionally write book and video reviews for review journals. As a
librarian I know that my professional life, and the professional life of my
colleagues, is made easier by the availability of reviews for the process
of selecting materials. Many review journals have been started up by
librarians frustrated because they could not find reviews of the material
they have to buy. To me this falls in the same category as doing volunteer
work for a professional association. there are professional associations
that I do not volunteer for because I don't approve of how their money is
spent. There are a number of others however where I have done stints at
whatever needs to be done, because of (in gratitude for?) the professional
benefits.
Perhaps part of the difference in viewpoints expressed about reviews is that
(I suspect) there are two slightly different uses for reviews. One is to
sell the book itself, or the journal the review is in, which implies that
the review should be linked to the profits (as an index is). The other use
of reviews is to help select materials. For librarians this means that
reviews are used to compare, evaluate, reject and choose materials. They
are, in the jargon, "selection tools", although rejection is as large a part
of the process as is selection. With the amount of material published today,
the availability of reviews is essential. It would be ironic if libraries
had to pay so much for access to the reviews (since if all reviews were paid
for, the costs of the journals would skyrocket) that it hindered their
purchase of other materials
I realize that many scholarly journals have only small sections of reviews,
but I think the uses those reviews are put to are similar.
Christine
*************************************************************************
Christine Jacobs
cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca
Co-Chair
Documentation and Library Systems Dept.
John Abbott College
P.O. Box 2000
Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9
of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730
**************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:04:31 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Charles R. Anderson" <c.anderson.seattle@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Cindex and LPT2;
Have any of the Cindex users on the list had occasion to need to print
from Cindex to the LPT2; port? The version I have of Cindex (6.0) by default
prints only to LPT1. For reasons too complex to explain here, I need to be
able to send Cindex output (rather than a word processed version - which would
be no trouble) to a second parallel port (card) not the motherboard's LPT1.
Reassiging addresses won't work. I tried e-mail to Frances, but they may
be traveling or something - no response.
If any of you have done this, how?
Charles Anderson
c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net
Charles Anderson
c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:19:42 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book?
You've enlightened me. I'm certainly a "foreigner" in these parts. I can
see some of the important issues now and accept that I was blind to some
of them. Thanks for explaining it so carefully, Christine. It's good
we're looking at this matter and learning.
Thank you all for your input.
David
-----
Christine Jacobs wrote:
>
> Although I agree that one wants to watch out against being exploited, I
> think there is a fundamental difference between creating an index for a book
> that will be sold for profit, and contributing a review to a journal that
> while it may be sold, certainly will not make a profit. Most scholarly
> journals are not run profitably.
>
> I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the
> invoice along with the amount owed.
>
> I do occasionally write book and video reviews for review journals. As a
> librarian I know that my professional life, and the professional life of my
> colleagues, is made easier by the availability of reviews for the process
> of selecting materials. Many review journals have been started up by
> librarians frustrated because they could not find reviews of the material
> they have to buy. To me this falls in the same category as doing volunteer
> work for a professional association. there are professional associations
> that I do not volunteer for because I don't approve of how their money is
> spent. There are a number of others however where I have done stints at
> whatever needs to be done, because of (in gratitude for?) the professional
> benefits.
>
> Perhaps part of the difference in viewpoints expressed about reviews is that
> (I suspect) there are two slightly different uses for reviews. One is to
> sell the book itself, or the journal the review is in, which implies that
> the review should be linked to the profits (as an index is). The other use
> of reviews is to help select materials. For librarians this means that
> reviews are used to compare, evaluate, reject and choose materials. They
> are, in the jargon, "selection tools", although rejection is as large a part
> of the process as is selection. With the amount of material published today,
> the availability of reviews is essential. It would be ironic if libraries
> had to pay so much for access to the reviews (since if all reviews were paid
> for, the costs of the journals would skyrocket) that it hindered their
> purchase of other materials
>
> I realize that many scholarly journals have only small sections of reviews,
> but I think the uses those reviews are put to are similar.
>
> Christine
>
> *************************************************************************
> Christine Jacobs
> cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca
>
> Co-Chair
> Documentation and Library Systems Dept.
> John Abbott College
> P.O. Box 2000
> Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9
> of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730
> **************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:20:07 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Legal entry query
In-Reply-To: <199709092323.QAA07567@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Habeas corpus is a foreign term and should normally always be underlined
or Italicized. God only knows what lawyers do. I usually follow the
Chicago Manual of Style. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:23:20 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2;
At 08:04 PM 9/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Have any of the Cindex users on the list had occasion to need to print
>from Cindex to the LPT2; port?
It won't work. Cindex for DOS supports only LPT1. I went through this
same thing a while back.
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:36:25 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book?
In-Reply-To: <199709100305.UAA23036@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Christine: very well put, but many scholarly journals do make a fat
profit, or they would not be published by companies such as
MacGraw-Hill, although it may be for the publisher that the profit comes.
I pity, however, librarians using reviews to make selections. I am
constantly amazed by the ignorance of many of those writing reviews. Far
too often these are people at the very beginning of their careers trying
to make a few toad points but not knowing enough to evaluate the book they
are supposed to be evaluating (for examples, look at reviews of the book
by an English author I forget--Wood?--on Marco Polo, trying to debunk his
journey. Only one of the reviews I saw even mentioned textual problems,
the key issue.) There are also the ideological reviews, in the Journal of
the American Historical Association, for example. And then there are the
friendly reviews with reviewers often carefully selected by the author or
by the publisher for this that purpose (I confess that I have written a
few of those). Then there are the many books that are never reviewed. When
I used to be a member of the American Historical Association and got their
journal I always looked at the list of books received and not reviewed,
rather than the book reviews themselves. The latter tended to be of the
politically correct books, although not always. What I felt were the most
interesting new publications were usually on the non-review list. Then
there are those with axes to grind, who will say nothing kind about a book
no matter what. A final problem is the selection against ground breaking
books that threaten the established empires of those in a field. So, pity
the librarians that have to rely on book reviews to stock the shelves of
their libraries. Paul D. Buell
PS: Actually, I think I have just made some excellent arguments for
newsletters and small journals and their volunteer reviewers who care most
of the field and have fewer axes to grind. So maybe we have come full
circle.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:45:08 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Helen Schinske <HSchinske@AOL.COM>
Subject: toad points?
Okay, Paul Buell has used the term "toad points" three times now, and others
besides me must be ignorant on this point -- where's that phrase from, Paul?
I've always heard "brownie points," and can't think how you get from there
to toads (except via elves sitting under toadstools, which is about as
far-fetched an etymology as I can think of).
Helen Schinske
HSchinske@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:59:12 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Peg Mauer <Pmauer@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2;
In a message dated 97-09-09 23:10:33 EDT, you write:
> Have any of the Cindex users on the list had occasion to need to print
> from Cindex to the LPT2; port? The version I have of Cindex (6.0) by
> default
> prints only to LPT1. For reasons too complex to explain here, I need to
be
> able to send Cindex output (rather than a word processed version - which
> would
> be no trouble) to a second parallel port (card) not the motherboard's
LPT1.
I have my PC connected to an Apple LaserWriter Pro 600 on my parallel port. I
couldn't get CINDEX to print, so I finally called Apple. They referred me to
the thumbwheel on the back of the printer. They told me to turn off the
printer, change the thumbwheel from "0" to "1" and then turn on the printer
again. This setting is *just* for printing from CINDEX. I must change that
printer setting back to "0" in order to print from MS Word or any other
program. Hope this helps.
Peg Mauer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:46:58 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Schupac@AOL.COM
Subject: suspend mail
hello -
i usually receive the index-L mail through a local server where my address is
schupack@vbimail.champlain.edu
however, my computer is now having difficulty accessing Netscape through this
server. until further notice please suspend index-l messages. thank you.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:43:08 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Chantal Hamill <og18@DIAL.PIPEX.COM>
Organization: Steedman Ramage
Subject: Re: moonlighting
Suzanne Eggins wrote:
>
> I'd be grateful if some of those who started out as indexers while still
> working in another fulltime job could share their experiences of the
> double-life. In particular:
> 1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did
> you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them?
> Did you tell them what your main job was?
I do not advertise apart from a listing in the society of Indexers directory in
the
UK. I do not want too much work, and I can hardly cope with my present workload.
Publishers do know that I work 'on the side' although I do not see it that way.
That
is how I started. I index almost exclusively law books, and the first law
publisher
who employed did so because he knew that I was familiar with Scots law concepts.
They
know that indexes will not come very quickly. I suppose that when they want a
fast
job, they do not ask me.
> 2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies
> did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump"
> into fulltime freelancing?
I do not have anything as grand as a strategy. I just do it. It is an excellent
excuse
for neglecting housework and other hateful activities. Like you I work in the
evening
and at week-ends (what else is there?). I do not see myself ever 'jumping'. My
work as
an indexer feeds on my full-time job as a law librarian. My very choice of
headings
tends to change according to some experiences I have as a researcher (I use the
books
I index and so do my library users, and woe betide me if we cannot find what we
are
looking for!). Apart from the security of the full-time job (I am too anxious a
person
to go completely freelance, even now, when the demand on my services has greatly
increased, as I would develop high blood pressure at the very thought of work
drying
up), the two jobs make for variety, one would be just boring.
Chantal Hamill
Steedman Ramage WS
6 Alva Street
Edinburgh EH2 4PS
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:54:22 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Susan Wilkerson <Bookindexr@AOL.COM>
Subject: AOL Indexer Chat Room
Hi
The meeting for the AOL Book Indexers Chat went very well. It was short
notice so only five people showed up but we had a fun chat and if anyone
wants a partial copy of the dialog E-mail me. We didn't decide to log it
until half of it was gone...lol.
We decided to try setting up a ICQ Chat Room for all indexers from any
Internet provider. The first meeting will be next Thursday, September 18th at
8:30 p.m. Central Time. This will give anyone interested time to download the
program from the Webb Site: http://www.icq.com. Once you have it installed
the program the UIN number for the Chat room is 3240043. There are detailed
instructions of how to operate the program at the webb site and very easy to
follow but if you have any questions E-mail me: Bookdexr@aol.com
The first official AOL Indexer Chat Room will be held next Monday, September
15th at 8:30 p.m. Central Time.
For those that are not familiar with the time zone and I wasn't until
recently:
Pacific 6:30 p.m. Mountain 7:30 p.m. Central 8:30 p.m. Eastern 9:30 p.m.
not sure about the rest of the world.
Thanks
Susan
Bookindexr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:07:00 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Mark Dempsey <MARKD@MICHIE.COM>
Subject: Re: Legal entry query -Reply
This is not intended as a bash or anything approaching a bash, but it does
seem odd to me that habeas corpus is considered a foreign term. Thiw
right is guaranteed in the Constitution (Art I, ?9, which is a series of
limitations on the powers of Congress, quoted in relevant part below),
which is the supreme law of the land (USA at least). When, if ever, does
a word or phrase lose its foreign character?
....The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended,
unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may
require it. .....
>>> P. Buell <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU> 09/09/97 11:20pm >>>
Habeas corpus is a foreign term and should normally always be
underlined or Italicized. God only knows what lawyers do. I usually follow
the
Chicago Manual of Style. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:30:47 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: toad points?
At 01:45 AM 9/10/97 -0400, Helen Schinske wrote:
>Okay, Paul Buell has used the term "toad points" three times now, and others
>besides me must be ignorant on this point -- where's that phrase from, Paul?
> I've always heard "brownie points," and can't think how you get from there
>to toads (except via elves sitting under toadstools, which is about as
>far-fetched an etymology as I can think of).
My guess (because I haven't had time to check anything like a slang
dictionary or other such thing) is that "toad points" has something to do
with the standard dictionary definition of "toady" as in a person who
"toadies" up to people or "engages in sycophancy." This interpretation
brings the term closer to "brownie points," I think.
Paul??? Is this how you meant it to be?
*****************************************
Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer
cbertel@usit.net
Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html
*****************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:09:53 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sharon Wright <SHARONW@MICHIE.COM>
Subject: Legal entry query -Reply
Either can fly. Habeus corpus is, obviously, a Latin
term, so it can justifiably be put into italics. However,
it is also a very common legal term and frequently--
perhaps usually-- appears in regular Roman type.
Personally, I kind of prefer having it in italics-- it is
stylistically correct, and lord knows we lawyers and
legal-types tend to have abysmal writing styles.
Anything that preserves the English language is fine
by me! :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:41:13 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was
maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US
From: Maryann Corbett <maryann.corbett@REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US>
Organization: Revisor of Statutes
Subject: Re: Legal entry query
Pam Rider wrote:
>
> I am working on an index with numerous legal entries. The text has habeas
> corpus in both italics and roman type. Can indexers who specialize in legal
> work tell me if there is a correct type style or if either can fly?
In the "Bluebook," more formally known as _A Uniform System of
Citation_ and used to guide copyediting in many legal publications, I
find:
"Italicize foreign words or phrases that have not been incorporated into
common usage. There is a strong presumption that Latin words and phrases
commonly used in legal writing have been incorporated into common usage
and thus should not be italicized..."
In Minnesota Statutes, we don't italicize habeas corpus and the like.
Neither does West's _Words and Phrases_. On the other hand, Black's Law
Dictionary does italicize those words when they occur in the bodies of
definitions. So while there doesn't seem to be an absolute rule, the
"Bluebook" statement is a good guide.
--
Maryann Corbett
Language Specialist
Office of the Revisor of Statutes
Minnesota Legislature
612-297-2952
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:02:51 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Craig Brown <LastWord@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Beginner and Thanks
Linda Jaffe asks for suggestions on helpful books for asipring
indexers. Read books of the type you plan to index, but read =
them from the back end forward. That is to say, that if you
study the indexes of nonfiction books you will soon find that
you can distinguish between good and bad indexes, and you will
become familiar with the many techniques indexers use (or don't
use) to make an index useful to the reader. When I began to
become interested in indexing as a possible career, I spent
a fair amount of time in this pursuit. It has now become a
habit, as I imagine it is for many of us, to look at the index
before anything else when perusing.
On another topic, I wish to thank everyone who took the time
to respond (onlist and off) to my question about FPO. Thanks!
Craig Brown
The Last Word
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:14:54 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: toad points?
At 01:45 AM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Okay, Paul Buell has used the term "toad points" three times now, and others
>besides me must be ignorant on this point -- where's that phrase from, Paul?
Probably from "toady" -- one who flatters in the hope of gaining favor.
See also "sycophant"
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:44:34 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: toad points?
In-Reply-To: <199709100546.WAA27489@mx2.u.washington.edu>
Sorry, I always forget: "toad points" is UCLA slang, used in reference to
the "points" (yes, like "brownie points") that one gets from "toadying" up
to the professors. Toads are low and squat, resembling students when they
get down on all fours. It's like "brownie points" only better. What do you
expect from a generation of students who identified with rats. Paul
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:16:37 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carolyn Weaver <CGWeaver@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: query sheet & software
In a message dated 97-09-09 09:31:29 EDT, you write:
<< As a re-entering indexer who has no capital at the moment, can I get by
with Word 95 for at least one or two indexes or should I really try to come
up with the money for a good software program as I try to get
re-established? >>
Certainly you can 'get by' with just Word; you can also get by with a stack
of 3x5 cards and a shoebox. But the question is, do you really want to? An
indexing program (even a very basic one) automates much of the drudgery of
indexing (i.e., formatting, sorting, layout) and lets you concentrate on the
creative part - assigning subject headings, structuring, etc. I did my first
index using a database program and a word processor on my husband's Mac; the
fee from that one was used to purchase a used 286 and Cindex (this was in the
days before Mac indexing programs were available); the 286 got upgraded
within 7 months to a 486, which lasted me for the next 5 years. Any
professional indexer should invest in a full-featured indexing program at the
earliest opportunity; it will pay for itself with your first index, purely in
terms of time saved and headaches avoided.
Carolyn Weaver
Bellevue, WA.
i
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:18:06 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "C. M. Jacobs" <cmjacobs@JOHNABBOTT.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book?
Re
>..... I pity, however, librarians using reviews to make selections. I am
>constantly amazed by the ignorance of many of those writing reviews. Far
>too often these are people at the very beginning of their careers trying
>to make a few toad points but not knowing enough to evaluate the book
they.... [big snip]
Yes Paul -- it's a dirty job but someone has to do it. And to make matter
worse the poor librarians may have to have at least two reviews other than
the blurbs from the publisher's catalogue (especially if the reviews are not
from a review journal) before a purchase can be made. On top of that, some
public libraries have to pass it through committee. It would be much nicer
to just order the book/video/map/cd-rom... and just return it if one didn't
like it, but time being valuable, and postage and handling being what it is...
By the way -- as indexers we can be happy that selection librarians are
taught to try to avoid books that are reviewed as having no indexes or poor
indexes.
I don't know about toad points really working. One's peers can be pretty
biting if the work is not up to scratch. I suppose if the people on the
tenure committee are too dense to recognize a padded publication list when
they see it...
Christine
****************************************************************************
Christine Jacobs
cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca
Co-Chair
Documentation and Library Systems Program (514) 457-6610, loc 470
John Abbott College Fax: (514) 457-4730
Box 2000
Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9
****************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:14:24 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was
maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US
From: Maryann Corbett <maryann.corbett@REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US>
Organization: Revisor of Statutes
Subject: ASI pub on indexer training
I'm getting ready to update ASI's publication on training in indexing,
and I'm writing to ask listmembers for information and leads.
Obviously, I'll lift the information that's already available on the ASI
web pages, but I suspect that much is omitted in that list. For example,
I'm sure I need to contact library schools, the Society for Technical
Communication, and the Special Libraries Association about the courses
they offer.
Can you folks suggest other organizations I haven't thought of?
Any while I'm asking, can any tell me where I might find a complete list
of American library/ information science programs?
Finally, may I ask a favor of those of you who learned indexing on the
job? If the employer who trained you does a good job of indexer
training, would you let me know?
Many of us learn on the job, but little is said about learning to index
this way. I think we ought to spotlight employers who train indexers
well.
Private mail would be fine for responses. Thanks in advance. This list
is unfailingly helpful.
--
Maryann Corbett
Language Specialist
Office of the Revisor of Statutes
Minnesota Legislature
612-297-2952
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:17:41 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Jennifer Dye <JDye@GALE.COM>
Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training
Jennifer Dye@ITP
09/10/97 12:17 PM
Maryann,
You can get a list of ALA-accredited library/information science programs
at http://www.ala.org/
Most (probably all) of the listings include email contact information.
Jennifer
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* *
Jennifer J. Dye (jdye@gale.com)
Bibliographic Authority Control Specialist
Gale Research
835 Penobscot Building
Detroit, MI 48226-4094
Voice (313) 961-2242 x1889
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:35:33 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sara Miller-Hively <shively@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training
In-Reply-To: <199709101616.MAA17029@mailbox.syr.edu>
Hi - just a scrap of info - here at the Syracuse Information Science
program, the course is Abstracting and Indexing - was taught by Liz Liddy
last year (Barbara Kwasnik has taught it also) - the faculty contacts and
course info are on the web page at istweb.syr.edu
On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Maryann Corbett wrote:
> I'm getting ready to update ASI's publication on training in indexing,
> and I'm writing to ask listmembers for information and leads.
>
> Obviously, I'll lift the information that's already available on the ASI
> web pages, but I suspect that much is omitted in that list. For example,
> I'm sure I need to contact library schools, the Society for Technical
> Communication, and the Special Libraries Association about the courses
> they offer.
>
> Can you folks suggest other organizations I haven't thought of?
>
> Any while I'm asking, can any tell me where I might find a complete list
> of American library/ information science programs?
>
> Finally, may I ask a favor of those of you who learned indexing on the
> job? If the employer who trained you does a good job of indexer
> training, would you let me know?
> Many of us learn on the job, but little is said about learning to index
> this way. I think we ought to spotlight employers who train indexers
> well.
>
> Private mail would be fine for responses. Thanks in advance. This list
> is unfailingly helpful.
> --
> Maryann Corbett
> Language Specialist
> Office of the Revisor of Statutes
> Minnesota Legislature
> 612-297-2952
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:37:29 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Capitalization in Cross-References
Sarah,
In the index to Minnesota Statutues, we use a lower case "s" in "see"
references, but use uppercase for the item referenced, e.g.,
Court cases, see Lawsuits under this topic
We use an uppercase "s" in "See also" references because "see" is always the
first word of the reference.
Terri Hudoba
Indexers Plus
tahudoba@aol.com
In a message dated 97-09-09 12:13:32 EDT, Sarah wrote:
<< I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30
software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also"
cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have
collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S.
Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an uppercase
S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct!
Obviously, if the client insists, I'll comply. I sometimes figure it's
part of my job to point out style standards for indexes but to do what
they want anyway. >>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:59:39 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Chris Blackburn <CBlackburn@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Society of Indexers meeting
The meeting in Dublin was very interesting -- I was lucky to be there fro=
m
Canada, thanks in part to support from SI and the IASC/SCAD, and enjoyed
meeting all the other indexers at least fifty, mostly from the U.K. I
contributed to the "international forum" on Saturday afternoon, with six
other participants who commented on indexing in their countries. =
We had a talk on "professionalism" from John Simkin, Past Preside=
nt
of the Australian Society of Indexers and now President of the Victorian
branch of AUSSI. John felt we had better learn about things like data bas=
e
indexing and thesaurus construction if we don't want to be considered mer=
e
"technician" book indexers.
Dr. Mary Burke, Head of the Department of Library and Information=
Science, University College, Dublin, spoke to us on "Meaning, Media and t=
he
Internet". She emphasized that meaning is dependent on users, and
distinguished levels of meaning. Dr. Burke then discussed Internet searci=
ng
at present, whether employing rough classification schemes such as Yahoo =
or
the automatic extraction of character strings by search engines such as
Alta Vista. She emphasized problems such as the mechanical searching for=
words without context, but also discussed some current research efforts t=
o
improve the situation (including getting the creators of Web pages to
employ indexers to associate subject terms with their material).
The conference closed for a few hours out of respect for the
funeral of Princess Diana, but then members of the Society of Indexers
discussed their training and apprenticeship programs. One of the
conclusions was that apprenticeship may be very good for the apprentice b=
ut
can cause problems for the experienced indexer. Another suggestion was th=
at
indexers who have been indexing for a number of years should take
"refresher courses" to keep up-to-date.
At the international forum on Saturday afternoon, seven speakers
discussed the state of indexing in their home countries. After dinner on
Saturday evening, Elizabeth Wallis and Doreen Blake related entertaining
anecdotes from "Forty Years of the SI". =
On Sunday morning we had a very interesting discussion on the
indexing of children's books, from Ken Bakewell and Paula Matthews. The
most important conclusion was that indexers of children's books must
consider the abilities of the children who will be using the indexes.
Demonstrations on the latest developmemts from Cindex and Macrex
were made last, preceding Society business and a farewell lunch.
A more complete report will be published in the September edition=
of the Bulletin of the Indexing and Abstracting Association of
Canada/Societe canadienne pour l'analyse de documents (IASC/SCAD). If the=
above notes were of interest and you would like to see a more complete
report, please contact me at CBlackburn@compuserve.com or contact the
editor, Ginette Chandonnet, at soumah@microtec.net. Let us know as quickl=
y
as possible, so we can increase the print run if necessary. I'm sure that=
small donations to IASC/SCAD at PO Box 744, Station F, Toronto, Ontario M=
4Y
2N6, Canada, would be gratefully received in order to help cover any extr=
a
printing costs.
Hope to hear from you, and also hope to make it to Seattle next
year!
Christopher Blackburn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:19:26 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Pam Rider <prider@POWERGRID.ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Thanks: Legal entry query
Thanks to all who have responded to my query about habeas corpus. The work I
am dealing wih is not an official legal text and I should have gone to a
reference it's always best to check first: Merriam Webster's 10th. It's a
main entry and not italics.
One note: I am pleased to see how many indexers appreciate that styles vary
and that style is a choice and is not synomous with being correct.
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@powergrid.electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:17:53 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Chris Blackburn <CBlackburn@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Society of Indexers meeting
Janet, Thanks for your message. I really enjoyed the Dublin conference an=
d
will be publishing a report in the September issue of the IASC/SCAD
Bulletin. Let me know if you'd like to receive a copy.
Chris Blackburn, CBlackburn@compuserve.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:48:34 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes
In-Reply-To: <199709101520.IAA29341@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Christine: actually, tenure committees love padded bibliographies, etc.
They often create them themselves (that is to say, if you think the
current system has anything at all to do with scholarship or that "peer"
review is worth a fart boy have I got a bridge to sell you).
Even several reviews may not be good enough since they may all sing the
same refrain. (Academics tend to sing in chorus, as you may have noticed.)
The solution in book buying for libraries, in my view, is to have
librarians who also have area knowledge, that is, who also have the
academic skills needed to figure out what is good and what is bad on their
own. Indiana had such a system when I was there and I know of other
libraries that do something similar (I happen to know that the librarian
at UC Riverside is a Mesoamerican specialist herself, as well as being a
librarian). I also think it important that faculty work closely with the
librarians. We do at Western Washington University. The librarians, all of
whom I think I know fairly well (at least the ones who have been there for
years), hear a great deal from me about what books to buy. Of course, the
final decision is up to them. We even go them one better by working
trades--my new book for yours, etc.--to get good books for the library
that it might not otherwise afford. I recently got something quite rare
that way, an important, but privately published book that none of the UC
system libraries have (heh, heh!)
On having good indexes, etc.: I absolutely refuse to take a book seriously
that lacks a good index and a real bibliography. When I evaluate a book I
look first at the bibliography, then at the index. The bibliography tells
me if the author "knows anything at all about the topic upon which he is
writing" (Fielding). For example, is the really important scholarship
cited, what primary sources are listed, does the author show evidence of
being able to read the foreign language materials that may be necessary to
approach his or her topic. A spot check of the index tells me how the
author treats his or her material. A history of Byzantium that has no
entry on Constantinople is not likely, for example, to be very useful. One
that treats of the first Byzantine renaissance after the 9th century and
has no entries on Const. Porp. or Photios is not likely to be worth
reading. Then I read the book. So, yes, indexes are very important. Of
course a good book can have a poor index. But that is the publisher's
karma. That is like books with so many typos you can't read them...
Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:50:02 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thanks: Legal entry query
In-Reply-To: <199709101717.KAA11673@mx3.u.washington.edu>
RE: Italics. Am I the only one in the world that capitalizes Italics
because the word is related to italy? Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:00:02 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Julia B. Marshall" <juliam@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position
In-Reply-To: <199709062014.QAA18247@cap1.CapAccess.org>
Dear folks
I'm on the advisory board for Chadwyck-Healey's International
Index to Music Periodicals. I think that Roberta has the right idea. The
other point that I know about is that Chadwyck-Healey indexed many many
music periodicals, some of them very obscure. If an indexer working on
the West Coast is indexing 20 periodicals, how does C-H get the
periodical to them? Or would the indexer be expected to supply their own
copy? Those are questions that I know that C-H is wrestling with. I
forwarded Sam Andrusko's message to one of the editors at
Chadwyck-Healey. I could let you know what's up if you like.
Regards
Julia Marshall
DC Public Library
juliam@capaccess.org
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Roberta Horowitz wrote:
> One possible reason for the need to be onsite, is that many database
> producers index directly online as this is quicker and allows for validation
for
> certain fields as the data is inputted. If this is the case and the company
> is not set up for people to dial into the corporate database from outside
> locations, then you would have to be onsite to do the job.
>
> Roberta Horowitz
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:46:59 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LBaker@GALE.COM
Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes
Larry Baker@ITP
09/10/97 02:46 PM
Paul Buell makes a good point regarding good indexes *and* bibliographies:
"I absolutely refuse to take a book seriously that lacks a good index and a
real bibliography. When I evaluate a book I look first at the bibliography,
then at the index. The bibliography tells me if the author "knows anything
at all about the topic upon which he is writing" (Fielding). For example,
is the really important scholarship cited, what primary sources are listed,
does the author show evidence of being able to read the foreign language
materials that may be necessary to approach his or her topic."
I'd insert one small caveat, however. The reader needs to be aware of what
the desired market is. If a book is aimed at, say, the middle school or
high school market (I work at a publisher that publishes many student
products), then the omission of foreign language materials doesn't
necessarily mean the author doesn't know about important sources in other
countries. In fact, we urge authors to steer clear of foreign language
materials--or at least to keep them to a minimum--since librarians want to
make sure the sources that are cited are also pretty accessible. Filling up
a bibliography with hard-to-find (not to mention impossible-to-read by 99%
of that market) or out-of-print material does the student or librarian no
good.
There have been times (usually with electronic products) when a reviewer
has totally missed the fact that a product has been specifically designed
for a student market (Read the front matter! Read the press release! Read
the name of the catalog! etc. etc.) and just assumes that everything they
come across is designed for the mass market! Aaaaargh!! Not *everything* is
designed by Bill Gates for home use!!
But, again, I understand where Paul is coming from, and his points about a
good bibliographies are right on target.
Larry Baker
Gale Research
LBaker@gale.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:16:04 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Pam Rider <prider@POWERGRID.ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Thanks: Legal entry query
Going again to Merriam-Webster's 10th: as a typeface it's lowercase,as a
reference to ancient Italy, its peoples, or their Indo-European languages,
it's capped.
Capitalization of common words that began as proper nouns is idiocyncratic
in English. Common words from proper nouns/names that would be incorrect if
capped include ohm, watt, hertz, and so on.
I try to check with a good dictionary.
At 10:50 AM 9/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>RE: Italics. Am I the only one in the world that capitalizes Italics
>because the word is related to italy? Paul D. Buell
>
>
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@powergrid.electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:27:03 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training
About that URL - is there a WWW. before it, or an http://?
On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:35:33 -0400 Sara Miller-Hively
<shively@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU> writes:
>Hi - just a scrap of info - here at the Syracuse Information Science
>program, the course is Abstracting and Indexing - was taught by Liz
>Liddy
>last year (Barbara Kwasnik has taught it also) - the faculty contacts
>and
>course info are on the web page at istweb.syr.edu
>
>
>On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Maryann Corbett wrote:
>
>> I'm getting ready to update ASI's publication on training in
>indexing,
>> and I'm writing to ask listmembers for information and leads.
>>
>> Obviously, I'll lift the information that's already available on the
>ASI
>> web pages, but I suspect that much is omitted in that list. For
>example,
>> I'm sure I need to contact library schools, the Society for
>Technical
>> Communication, and the Special Libraries Association about the
>courses
>> they offer.
>>
>> Can you folks suggest other organizations I haven't thought of?
>>
>> Any while I'm asking, can any tell me where I might find a complete
>list
>> of American library/ information science programs?
>>
>> Finally, may I ask a favor of those of you who learned indexing on
>the
>> job? If the employer who trained you does a good job of indexer
>> training, would you let me know?
>> Many of us learn on the job, but little is said about learning to
>index
>> this way. I think we ought to spotlight employers who train indexers
>> well.
>>
>> Private mail would be fine for responses. Thanks in advance. This
>list
>> is unfailingly helpful.
>> --
>> Maryann Corbett
>> Language Specialist
>> Office of the Revisor of Statutes
>> Minnesota Legislature
>> 612-297-2952
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:32:19 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position
How about good old snail mail (USPS)? Suellen
On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:00:02 -0400 "Julia B. Marshall"
<juliam@CAPACCESS.ORG> writes:
>Dear folks
> I'm on the advisory board for Chadwyck-Healey's International
>Index to Music Periodicals. I think that Roberta has the right idea.
>The
>other point that I know about is that Chadwyck-Healey indexed many
>many
>music periodicals, some of them very obscure. If an indexer working
>on
>the West Coast is indexing 20 periodicals, how does C-H get the
>periodical to them? Or would the indexer be expected to supply their
>own
>copy? Those are questions that I know that C-H is wrestling with. I
>forwarded Sam Andrusko's message to one of the editors at
>Chadwyck-Healey. I could let you know what's up if you like.
>
>Regards
>Julia Marshall
>DC Public Library
>juliam@capaccess.org
>
>On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Roberta Horowitz wrote:
>
>> One possible reason for the need to be onsite, is that many database
>> producers index directly online as this is quicker and allows for
>validation
> for
>> certain fields as the data is inputted. If this is the case and the
>company
>> is not set up for people to dial into the corporate database from
>outside
>> locations, then you would have to be onsite to do the job.
>>
>> Roberta Horowitz
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:00:54 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes
In-Reply-To: <199709101900.MAA09756@mx4.u.washington.edu>
Larry: good points. I do not expect my granddaughter's book on ancient
Greece to cite all the latest literature. On the other hand, a book on
Iceland in the 11th century that intends to be scholarly rather than
popular had better cite and use Icelandic and other Scandinavian primary
and secondary literature. Yes, in all depends upon audience. Paul
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:19:41 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nancy K Humphreys <NKH@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: "cheaper freelancers"
Recently I went to a party for information searchers. When the time came
for introductions, nearly every one of the fifty people in the room said
that they were or wanted to be freelance searchers because they had been
downsized. Downsizing is the reality of the nineties whether we like it o=
r
not. The old days of pioneering freelancers are gone. But are the new
freelancers taking in-house jobs for cheaper prices? I'd say yes, but not=
intentionally. Thanks to IRS rules on independent contractors, the main
reason a company outsources is that it has a function that is irregular.
Hence it needs to be able to hire freelancers only when it actually needs=
them. However, when companies downsize one function, it causes other
layoffs. Freelancers know that to earn a living, we have to get paid more=
than salaried workers because we have to pay for our own supplies and tax=
es
and handle our own accounting, marketing, computing, recordkeeping, filin=
g
and other needs. Likewise when one type of employees are let go, the
company no longer has to provide these kinds of support services for them=
and cuts support functions (e.g. accountants, librarians, etc.). All thes=
e
people are out of work too. Some of them can freelance in their fields;
others decide to change fields. It seems clear to me that freelance
indexing rates are, if not declining, at least not rising. I think this i=
s
due to the increased supply of downsized employees coming into the
information field. Because of the increased supply of workers, freelance=
rs
are driving each other's and salaried wages down. But it's no good
criticizing each other for working "cheaper" or complaining that publishe=
rs
don't value our work. Supply and demand is what initially sets rates of
pay. Freelance or salaried, I think all of us who care about making a
living and preserving standards of indexing need to get together and try =
to
deal constructively with downsizing. =
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:14:31 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Roberta Horowitz <RHorowitz@ACM.ORG>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position
Suellen
Yes, there is mail but there is also a cost factor, unlike a book which is
a one time item, with journals you can be talking about 20 to 40 pounds of
journals a week and that postage would be twice (coming and going) and this
can added up.
Also, the publisher has to worry about having the journals lost or damaged in
the mail. This is not a reason not to use telecommuting, just some more
facts why a publisher might not want to consider it.
Roberta Horowitz
rhorowitz@acm.org
At 03:32 PM 9/10/97 EDT, you wrote:
>How about good old snail mail (USPS)? Suellen
>
>On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:00:02 -0400 "Julia B. Marshall"
><juliam@CAPACCESS.ORG> writes:
>>Dear folks
>> I'm on the advisory board for Chadwyck-Healey's International
>>Index to Music Periodicals. I think that Roberta has the right idea.
>>The
>>other point that I know about is that Chadwyck-Healey indexed many
>>many
>>music periodicals, some of them very obscure. If an indexer working
>>on
>>the West Coast is indexing 20 periodicals, how does C-H get the
>>periodical to them? Or would the indexer be expected to supply their
>>own
>>copy? Those are questions that I know that C-H is wrestling with. I
>>forwarded Sam Andrusko's message to one of the editors at
>>Chadwyck-Healey. I could let you know what's up if you like.
>>
>>Regards
>>Julia Marshall
>>DC Public Library
>>juliam@capaccess.org
>>
>>On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Roberta Horowitz wrote:
>>
>>> One possible reason for the need to be onsite, is that many database
>>> producers index directly online as this is quicker and allows for
>>validation
>> for
>>> certain fields as the data is inputted. If this is the case and the
>>company
>>> is not set up for people to dial into the corporate database from
>>outside
>>> locations, then you would have to be onsite to do the job.
>>>
>>> Roberta Horowitz
>>>
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:18:39 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: "cheaper freelancers" maybe, but it doesn't need to be that way.
I'll write of the world of temporary and/or part-time employees and
their earnings in Down Under.
In New South Wales, the state I know best (and hope I remember clearly
for these purposes) employers must pay a premium hourly wage for these
workers because the government recognizes that these workers miss out on
certain benefits normally provided by employers. The employees must
arrange their own superannuation, medical plans and such.
It amazes me to see (in comparison) that part-time workers in the USA
miss out (usually) on decent wages, and also benefits. And, in an
employer's group plan, FT permanent employees get less-expensive health
benefits than are available to us who buy our own insurance "out here."
Freelancers are not quite the same as contract employees, I know, but we
face many of the same problems, of course.
Getting away with this only encourages employers to shed full-time
workers and use the many part-time, contract and freelance employees who
exist because of last year's shedding, as you point out, Nancy.
Perhaps those huge differences in remuneration exist because these three
groups are typically not unionized or organized, and as such, do not
form a voting block that politicians take notice of. Of course, it would
be a violation of antitrust laws if we, unlike a union, all decided we
needed to lift rates 10%, or whatever.
Recently, one of you suggested that indexers should be charging about
1.3 or 1.5 as much as normal employees earn (or cost?) in order to
cover our own costs for insurance and so on. Perhaps that person will
come back and refresh our collective memory. I think the next step would
be a rates survey, and a salary survey, so we can know how much cheaper
we come.
Meanwhile, feel lucky you don't live in Los Angeles where the "pencil
police" will, without appointment, start visiting creative types in
their bedroom offices any day now, hands out for taxes. For those of you
who do live there, my sympathies - and please advise us on our own
preparations for that dreaded day in towns from Missoula to Middletown.
Yours,
DRA
Nancy K Humphreys wrote:
>
> Recently I went to a party for information searchers. When the time came
> for introductions, nearly every one of the fifty people in the room said
> that they were or wanted to be freelance searchers because they had been
> downsized. Downsizing is the reality of the nineties whether we like it o=
> r
> not. The old days of pioneering freelancers are gone. But are the new
> freelancers taking in-house jobs for cheaper prices? I'd say yes, but not=
>
> intentionally. Thanks to IRS rules on independent contractors, the main
> reason a company outsources is that it has a function that is irregular.
> Hence it needs to be able to hire freelancers only when it actually needs=
>
> them. However, when companies downsize one function, it causes other
> layoffs. Freelancers know that to earn a living, we have to get paid more=
>
> than salaried workers because we have to pay for our own supplies and tax=
> es
> and handle our own accounting, marketing, computing, recordkeeping, filin=
> g
> and other needs. Likewise when one type of employees are let go, the
> company no longer has to provide these kinds of support services for them=
>
> and cuts support functions (e.g. accountants, librarians, etc.). All thes=
> e
> people are out of work too. Some of them can freelance in their fields;
> others decide to change fields. It seems clear to me that freelance
> indexing rates are, if not declining, at least not rising. I think this i=
> s
> due to the increased supply of downsized employees coming into the
> information field. Because of the increased supply of workers, freelance=
> rs
> are driving each other's and salaried wages down. But it's no good
> criticizing each other for working "cheaper" or complaining that publishe=
> rs
> don't value our work. Supply and demand is what initially sets rates of
> pay. Freelance or salaried, I think all of us who care about making a
> living and preserving standards of indexing need to get together and try =
> to
> deal constructively with downsizing. =
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:17:25 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <rachelr@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: moonlighting
Suzanne,
I'm still part time by choice as I like a mix of different things to do. My
3/4 time job is as psychiatric emergencies clinician and I'm on call only.
If I don't get beeped, I am at home, and I get paid whether I get called or
not. So I sort of double dip. I also have small part time jobs that I do
for fun, currently one in a nursery--specifically taken to learn about
plants in order to index gardening books. I have plenty of time free for
indexing, but I try to take only one at a time. It doesn't always work out
that way due to slipped schedules, but I seem to average about one index
per month. This is what I had always planned on from the beginning.
Also I have no husband or children or boyfriend (or girlfriend, to be pc),
just a million cats, so I don't have to juggle anyone else's schedules or
needs with my own. This is good and bad.
I do tell publishers I'm part time, and that I take only one project at a
time. They seem to like that, and also they understand and don't hold it
against me when I turn something down. They know I make my deadlines. I
also tell them when I'll be going on vacation (this happens about every 2
years) and I stop accepting projects enough in advance to guarantee nothing
slips into the vacation.
I have no plan at all to go full time. I like doing different things, and
getting out to meet people. If I were indexing full time I think I'd be
extremely lonely and bored, and wouldn't be able to focus very well. I'm
lucky (or persistent, or crazy) enough to have trained myself in various
fields (can you Attention Deficit Disorder? I'm a textbook case) and worked
hard to get the kind of schedule that gives me so much free time yet still
generates a pay check.
I think I'm an unusual case for a part timer. But it works for me. I think
that when I move to Vermont in the spring I won't go for an on call job but
might sign on with a couple of temp agencies, and then when I have an index
I just won't take assignments. I'll also look for a part time therapist
job. I don't think I'll make any drastic changes in the way I take on
indexing work, though.
In fact, I don't do much marketing because I've got exactly the amount of
work I want now.
Anyway, that's one way of being an indexer. Good luck.
Rachel
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Chilmark, Mass
rachelr@tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:30:42 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: DStaub11@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Political violence
Carol wrote:
<< Without actually seeing the book, it's hard to second-guess, but I would
ordinarily list that sort of thing under violence, since "political" is an
adjective, and "political violence" isn't a common phrase like "real
estate." And in philosophy books, "political" or "politics" is often too
broad to use successfully as a main heading.>>
Actually, "political violence" is a common phrase these days in political
science/sociology/etc. books. It's used to describe civil conflicts like
Bosnia, Somalia, etc. in a way that includes all kinds of , well, political
violence. So it might well be a fine entry. As Carol says, it all depends on
the context of the book.
Do Mi
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:01:24 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sharon Wright <SHARONW@MICHIE.COM>
Subject: "cheaper freelancers" -long reply
As I raised earlier on the list, this is an issue that I am
quite sensitive to. I am currently a FT in-house
indexer, which I enjoy very much, but the business
climate that Nancy notes is all-pervasive. We merged
recently with another, smaller publishing company that
uses outsourcers almost exclusively (all of whom are
former, downsized employees, I might add), and to
further complicate matters, our mutual parent
company (who bought us both out and merged us) is
not actually in the "dead tree" publishing business--
they are an online company. One of the first things
we were asked to do was justify our existence to our
new bosses (they don't have in-house indexers, so
why do you?). There were and are a lot of good
reasons for keeping us in-house that I won't belabor
here, and we finally won the day on that one, but I see
the handwriting on the wall, and as our parent and
grandparent companies keep bringing in new people
and new managers who are either unfamiliar with
paper publishing or unfamiliar with our publishing
processes, we are going to have to continually justify
our existence. Since in happier times one of the
theoretical benefits of full-time employment was job
security, it hurts to lose that.
It's nice to say that if a company fires all of its FT
employees and re-hires outsourcers to do the work
that they should expect to pay more for the
outsourcers to cover the additional expenses, but I
can tell you that when employers start looking to
downsizing and outsourcing, they are looking to save
money. They wouldn't do it if they didn't think it was
going to save them money, so I don't think that anyone
can expect to make as much (in salary and benefits)
as the in-house people made. In fact, as David
pointed out, since companies get huge discounts on
such things as insurance, the net income to the
freelancer goes down dramatically.
I found myself in great sympathy with the UPS
workers on strike this year for precisely the same
reason: Opposition to abuse of contract employees.
This is a trend that has been going on in
manufacturing for years and is becoming more and
more commonplace. It's only now reaching our
profession. 50 years ago, W. Edwards Deming
proved that the companies who prospered the most
were the ones that treated their employees the best,
but the current corporate culture is no more accepting
of this than they were then (which is why, incidentally,
Japan has routinely kicked our corporate butts in the
last couple of decades). As long as companies treat
all of their employees-- full-time, part-time or
outsourced-- as commodities, things aren't going to
get better for any of us. I don't know what we can do
to change corporate culture, but I welcome any
suggestions.
I'm sorry. It's late, it's been a long day, and I'm
rambling. I'll shut up for now! :-)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:12:53 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: moonlighting
In-Reply-To: <199709100409.XAA02231@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did
>you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them?
>Did you tell them what your main job was?
I had a lot of contacts in publishing (because I was already freelance
editing), so I contacted them, and I contacted about half of the faculty
members in my old PhD program (the half I thought I could stand working
with). Come to think of it, the freelance editing began with the shotgun
letter approach (but not advertising in the conventional sense). Yes,
everyone I contacted knew that I was doing it part-time. I doubt that they
all knew what my main job was (in-house editor). No one seemed to care so
long as I delivered on time, which I always did.
>
>2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies
>did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump"
>into fulltime freelancing?
For me it was very difficult, even though I limited myself to one book per
month. Some of the difficulty was self-imposed: I have 2 small children, so
I was determined to start my moonlighting work only after the kids were in
bed, and I refrained from working on weekends. The rest of the difficulty
was that I was on salary at my day job and was expected to bring work home
as needed. Unfortunately, it was needed fairly regularly and unpredictably.
(No, I was not paid overtime. Now you know, in part, why I'm a freelancer.)
Although it was difficult for a time, I'm not sorry I did it, because it
allowed me to see what indexing is really like without making a total
commitment to it by giving up my salaried job. I can't quite remember how
long I did that before quitting my day job (maybe a year--I was also
freelance editing, so this gets murky). I remember struggling with the idea
of plunging in. Then my mentor at the time told me to "fish or cut bait." I
never did find out what that means, but further conversations with her and
others on Index-L gave me the information and the support I needed to quit
that day job (helped along by the fact that I was very unhappy in my job).
The timing of it was that my husband was finishing up his degree, and I
figured we'd probably be moving in a year. So I quit my job then, so I'd
have a year to get my new business established, in comfortable
surroundings, before having to pack up and move. It worked out pretty well.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ;-)
Caroly Weaver brings up a good point:
>And also to let your employer
>know about your outside career and to make sure they know that you are not
>conducting an outside business on their time.
I would also add that if you have an actual contract at your day job,
you'll have to check to see whether it allows freelance work. When I was
moonlighting, I could accept work only from clients who weren't eligible to
bring their projects in to the publications office.
Cheers,
Carol
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:05:11 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" <lsweetln@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes
When I review books for Library journal--most say index in the tc but in
the pre-proofs there is no index, so I have to say "index not seen."
I agree if no index, I rate the book on a lower scale.
Loraine F. Sweetland
IPS Information Problem Solvers
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:14:39 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" <lsweetln@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: moonlighting
What part of Vermont are you going to? I was born and raised there but we
want to go to TN where the costs are lower and the weather is warmer.
I also do various things: I do taxes, do tutoring (in algebra), do
teaching for an International Correspondence Course, and now I am doing
medical journal indexing--if all goes well, I will be doing that for a
while, also.
Loraine F. Sweetland
IPS Information Problem Solvers
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:12:24 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: MRS SUSAN D HOLLER <FHGU30F@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: bidding on job
Like many others, I've been following this list for some time and
have gotten
a huge amount of information. The one thing I have not seen mentioned
is bidding
on a job. What should you included in your offer besides the bid
itself?
What else would be appropriate - your experience, your interest in
that type
of book?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
TIA
Susan Holler
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:58:33 +0200
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" <nifkev@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: marketing
Dear Rachel Rice:
You mentioned in a recent post that you hardly need to market any longer
because you have the work you need. What marketing method did you use
when you first started?
Kevin A. Broccoli
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:55:58 +0200
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" <nifkev@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: apprentice
Dear Carol Roberts:
You mentioned in your recent post that you had the aid of a mentor. How
did you find such a person? How did you present yourself to them to show
that having an apprentice would be of benefit to them?
Kevin A. Broccoli
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:15:55 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sharon Hughes <SHughes512@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position
HI all,
When I index journals, the publishers send me a copy of the journals as
they are published. It's like having a subscription. The last few for each
year come early as folios so that the final issue can have the complete
index. I don't think its all that expensive for them. After all , they send
out thousands to the other 'subscribers'.
It must be considerations other than postage that determines their need for
an inhouse indexer.
Sharon
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:35:44 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Charles R. Anderson" <c.anderson.seattle@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: bidding on job
With newer clients who require a bid, I use the bid form as a contract as
well, just as contractors who furnish bids on putting in a driveway,
installing
a fence, remodeling, etc. In other words, I say something like,
"I propose to furnish a subject [author, etc.] index to [blank (title)}, a
work
of some [blank] pages. Based on the sample material furnished me,
I estimate the index will consist of approximately [blank] entries. Index
copy will be furnished in [Microsoft Word for Windows 7.0] (or whatever
format
is desired) by [e-mail] [disk] (depending on what the editor wants) no
later than [blank} days following the date I receive final page proofs. The
charge for the above index will be [blank] payable within 30 days of
delivery of index copy to [blank.]
Then I include a place for my signature and for the editor signature. This
has obviated the need for any type of special contract as ASI suggests.
Charles Anderson
Charles Anderson
c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:03:14 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Norcross <norcross@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book?
Christine Jacobs wrote:
> I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the
> invoice along with the amount owed.
Not sure I want to get involved in this discussion, but... can you say
more about this, Christine? I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying
you charge your client for a copy of the book you are indexing?
(Usually my clients send me one free copy.) Do you charge for a copy
and then buy it yourself after publication, instead of having the client
send you one? How do you know how much it is going to cost? Or am I (as
usual) missing a point here? :-)
Ann Norcross
Crossover Information Services
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:58:29 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Roberta Horowitz <RHorowitz@ACM.ORG>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position
I think this is in response to my message about the cost of mailing journals
could be a factor for not using outside indexers. For clarification, I was
referring to online databases that can be indexing any where from 500 to
6000 plus titles (from many publishers) and in these case the journals are
received in house, processed to create the bibliographic records, then index
etc. This type of production flow would be very different than a journal
publisher creating an index for a particular title or creating the end of
the year index that occurs in the final issue of the year.
My normal work load is between 30 and 50 journals a week and those boxes
are heavy.
As with any work situation there are a lot of variables that are not always
obvious which contribute to management decisions.
Roberta Horowitz
rhorowitz@acm.org
At 11:15 PM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>HI all,
> When I index journals, the publishers send me a copy of the journals as
>they are published. It's like having a subscription. The last few for each
>year come early as folios so that the final issue can have the complete
>index. I don't think its all that expensive for them. After all , they send
> out thousands to the other 'subscribers'.
>
>It must be considerations other than postage that determines their need for
>an in house indexer.
> Sharon
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:49:57 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: copyediting more fun?
I would like to put my vote in on this subject. I vote for indexing as
infinitely more fun. I copyedit every once and a while, when broke or when
offered a terrific job. Other than that, my business (which at the start was
about 70% copyediting, 30% indexing, 0% proofreading) is presently 90%
indexing. And that is by choice.
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:42:28 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: DStaub11@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Taxes
Kara wrote,
<< I have a question regarding when one is required to begin paying
self-employment tax. >>
I highly recommend hiring a Licensed Tax Preparer. I struggled through my
first year of estimated taxes etc. on my own, then found my "tax guy." He's a
one-person business like me (I read an article once that said to hire an tax
person with the same size business as yours), and came recommended. I pay him
about $100 a year, and he does everything except write the checks (well, I
keep track of expenses and income and give him a list), including answering
questions like that one over the phone for free. The money is very well worth
it.
Good luck, Kara!
Do Mi
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:45:20 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: moonlighting
In answer to the question << How difficult is it to handle indexing as a
second job? What strategiesdid you use to cope with the work? At what point
did you decide to "jump"into fulltime freelancing? >> ...........
How difficult is it? I'd say very difficult! BUT, the caveat is that if you
want something badly enough, you do difficult things. In my situation, I had
indexed as a moonlighter for many, many years, had gone away from it, and had
come back to it due to extreme staleness and unhappiness at my (unrelated)
day job. I knew what I wanted, and I was willing to sacrifice and work my
fingers to the bone to get my freelancing to a point where I could leave the
fulltime job.
It was difficult for 2 reasons. First, holding down 2 "jobs", when one of
them is a growing business means you can't/won't get much sleep. I had
obligations to my clients, and the list kept growing. I took on as many jobs
as humanly possible so that I could "grow" the business. One client at a
time wasn't enough for me. So it was difficult to keep up with the volume of
work needed. I had to do dinner -- whether prepared *by* me, or *for* me --
and then go to work, for as long as I could before the need for sleep
overtook me. Often I'd fall asleep at my desk. Of course, I had to get
enough sleep to be reasonably functional at my day job, which demanded a lot
of me too. So I walked a tightrope there. Index quality had to be high,
sleep had to be had, and a shower and clean clothes was important too.
Fortunately, I had a very encouraging and undemanding husband, who
understood and supported me.
It was also difficult because I had to have a way to return calls from
clients during the day, in a timely manner so as not to miss out on jobs, and
not from my desk at my day job, of course. I used the USWest messaging
service, so that it was easy to retrieve messages periodically throughout the
day. I would make return phone calls from a pay phone in the lobby, and hope
I didn't get into a phone tag situation. Sometimes I'd be able to slip one
in if my boss was at a meeting or something, using a calling card for long
distance calls. But I rarely did that because it made me so nervous.
I used a mailbox location as my business address, to do away with delivery
problems on packages of proof (since I wasn't home by day to receive them),
and to obviate trips to UPS or FedEX's office to retrieve non-delivered
signature-required packages. I still keep that address. It works like a
charm.
All in all, it was a bear! It didn't take too long (about 3 years, with the
last getting extremely hectic) before I had so much work, I couldn't do it
all. I literally wasn't getting any sleep. I was still very fearful of
leaving the safe haven of a steady salary and paycheck. It is very much a
golden trap. Fortunately, my friends and husband were very persuasive, and I
gave notice, and began my new life.
PS -- I've never looked back! It's been very good - in every way. I guess
you could say that good things don't come easy. But it can be done, and if
you want it badly enough, you do it, and get past it, and move ahead.
Good luck to all of you who are in this position! It can be done!!
Janet Perlman
Southwest Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:05:21 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: ASI Arizona Meeting -- Last chance to register
Arizona Chapter, American Society of Indexers
MEETING
Date: Saturday, September 20th
Topic: ONWARD TO ONLINE:
USING YOUR INDEXING SKILLS TO MAKE ONLINE DOCUMENTS
MORE ACCESSIBLE
Speaker: Bonni Graham
Location: Holiday Inn Casa Grande, 777 North Pinal Avenue, Casa Grande AZ
Registration and networking 11:30 a.m.-12 p.m.
Lunch 12-12:30 p.m.
Program 12:30-2 p.m.
ASI business meeting 2 p.m.-3 p.m.
This interactive discussion will demonstrate how your existing indexing
skills can be used to serve a new market: online documents. Bonni Graham has
held a variety of positions in several San Diego software companies. Her
documentation business, Manual Labour, claims a number of major corporations
as clients and recently won an APEX Award for excellence in design.
Menu: Tierra Melon: a melon crown stuffed with chunky chicken salad,
garnished with fresh fruit. A vegetarian alternative is available.
Fee: $20
Registration: Email your reservation to CarolC777@aol.com, then send check
made to ASI to : Carol Chroneos
1960 E. Bendix Drive
Tempe AZ 85283
Deadline: Monday, September 15
For more information contact either Janet Perlman (Phoenix) at
602-569-7302, or Nan Badgett (Tucson) at 520-825-2892.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:14:31 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" <lsweetln@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position
Are these medical journals or others?? Just curious since I am just doing
medical journals and still learning on them. I can't imagine being able
to do 30-60 a week on medical journals--but of course I am in the
learning state, also.
Loraine F. Sweetland
IPS Information Problem Solvers
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:19:36 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: WordenDex@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training
Maryann,
The American Library Assn Directory used to, and may still, list lib schools
in a separate section. However, I haven't consulted it in several years.
Diane Worden
Kalamazoo, Mich.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:56:52 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <rachelr@TIAC.NET>
Subject: marketing
Hi Kevin,
At first my "marketing" was word of mouth, telling everyone I knew I was an
indexer and looking for work. It was hard to say the words when I had never
done one yet, but eventually I got one and after that it was easier. Then I
got lucky and was approached by a company who had seen something I'd posted
here (!!) and I've been working steadily for them ever since. Then I got a
referral from a fellow indexer (Thanks again!) and worked steadily for that
company until I raised my rates and they dumped me (we discussed that here
when it happened) but then I got another job from them anyway by referral.
(That is to say, they gave my name to someone else who hired me--at my new
rate!). Then somewhere in the middle of all this I did some cold calling
and got one steady customer out of that, which was just about right. (I
called about 12 publishers, so that was a pretty good rate of return.)
For whatever it's worth, that was my "marketing." I think if I wanted to
generate more business I'd do the cold calling again, but I'd do a much
better job of it now, and would research the companies I called a little
better.
And, I've referred companies to 4 people from this list, and those 4 people
are now working from my referrals, so if anyone wants to refer anything to
me, that would be lovely. I'd like to get into ophthalmology (my previos
career) and any animal books. And that's also what I do for "marketing."
I know, I'm a bit unconventional, but it seems to be working for me.
Rachel
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Chilmark, Mass
rachelr@tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:14:46 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Robert Huerster <huerro@CONSUMER.ORG>
Subject: subscribe
Subscribe Robert Huerster
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:59:08 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Susan Wilkerson <Bookindexr@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: marketing
Hi everyone :-),
I am a beginning indexer as well. I am just starting to market myself. How do
you know which companies use free-lance indexers to be able to even call
them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you choose
them? I am interested in history, genealogy, antiques, computers, printing,
typesetting but will tackle any subject that doesn't require you to have a
thorough knowledge of it. Did you just go to the Literary Market Place
subject section and just start dialing or is there a more sure way of telling
who uses free-lance indexers.
I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one response
said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use free-lance
indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the ASI's
directory?
Thanks
Susan
bookindexr
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:23:16 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Linda Jaffe <birdfixer@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: marketing
Hi Rachel,
I have been giving alot of thought to how I am going to actually get a
business going. The thought of cold calling just tears me up. I am not a
salesman by any stretch. I had thought t o write to publishers on very
nice letterhead, enclosing a card and a sample of work, maybe. Is that a
reasonable approach? I do not have any contacts in the publishing
industry, as that is not my working background. I was curious as to the
careers people were in before they became indexers. I'm also enrolled in
the USDA Proofreading class, which is not too exciting but at least may
generate some income. Any comments on that field?
Linda Jaffe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:11:48 +0800
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith <stroud@NETVIGATOR.COM>
Subject: Copyedit-L
Could someone please tell me how to get in touch with Copyedit-L
(or whatever it's called)?
Thanks
Christine
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:21:50 +0800
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith <stroud@NETVIGATOR.COM>
Subject: Marketing
Further to Linda's query about cold calling (the prospect of which
terrifies me too!).
I decide to contact a number of publishers in a particular field, find
out the phone numbers and ask the telephonist or some other minion who
to address the letter to. I then send a personalised letter.
I've never had the guts to ring and say 'did you get my letter'. Some
contacts bear fruit after a remarkably long time. Some people really do
keep the details on file!
When I'm living in England (which I'm not at the moment), I also make a
point of going to the London Book Fair with about thirty well-presented
letters ready in envelopes. On arrival I study the catalogue (which
they no longer send out in advance) and make a list of companies I could
usefully leave my details with. The Fair is a good chance to look at
their books and catalogues. The people on the stand are never the ones
who commission indexes, but they know who is responsible, so I write out
the envelope and 'Dear X' on the letter and ask the person on the stand
(awfully nicely) to take it back to the office. I also make a note in
my catalogue. I have had a gratifying amount of work this way.
When I have got rid of all thirty I can go home with my head held high.
I limit the number of copies I take with me, as it is remarkably
tiring.
Christine
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:36:46 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: marketing
At 10:59 AM 9/11/97 -0400, Susan Wilkerson wrote:
>I am a beginning indexer as well. I am just starting to market myself. How do
>you know which companies use free-lance indexers to be able to even call
>them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you choose
>them? I am interested in history, genealogy, antiques, computers, printing,
>typesetting but will tackle any subject that doesn't require you to have a
>thorough knowledge of it. Did you just go to the Literary Market Place
>subject section and just start dialing or is there a more sure way of telling
>who uses free-lance indexers.
The LMP is an excellent way to begin. Also "work backwards" by checking out
the publishers of books you love to read. I like the LMP and other
publishing lists because they usually give you actual people's names to
write to or call. Since I hate cold calling, I will prepare a good letter
and mention that I will be calling to check in soon and discuss possible
freelance work. Then when I do call, the person has already been introduced
to me, so to speak, and the conversation is much easier. If they never use
freelancers, well, you're out the cost of a three-minute call. Otherwise,
you may get a job.
>I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one response
>said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use free-lance
>indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the ASI's
>directory?
A 1% response is average-to-good in the mass mailing department. Two or
three responses would have been astoundingly excellent! Don't just send out
letters and wait by the telephone. Send fewer, and vow to follow them up
with phone calls within a reasonable length of time. The personal touch
really does help you get more work. Good luck!
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:45:41 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "C. M. Jacobs" <cmjacobs@JOHNABBOTT.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book?
Re: Copies of indexed books
Ann asks
>> I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the
>> invoice along with the amount owed.
... can you say
>more about this, Christine? I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying
>you charge your client for a copy of the book you are indexing?
>(Usually my clients send me one free copy.) Do you charge for a copy
>and then buy it yourself after publication, instead of having the client
>send you one? How do you know how much it is going to cost? Or am I (as
>usual) missing a point here? :-)
To clarify how I handle acquiring copies of books I index:
When I started 15 years ago I naively assumed that I would be sent a copy of
the book automatically. WheN I found that I was not, I came up with a
solution that saved me and the clients embarrassment (I did not have to ask
and be refused or put off, and the client could plan for my copy from the
start). Often the problems arose with authors who were given their alloted
number of books and then found that after their mother, boss, etc had
received their copies, there were no more to pass around. Since academic
authors are usually responsible for their own indexes, the publisher would
not look after this. I tell all clients that what I charge is my hourly rate
plus one copy of the book. I include the copy on the estimate / contract /
letter of agreement. Then when I bill I add at the end of the invoice (after
the monetary amount and before the Payable 30 days): "Also one copy of
[Title]". Now the only times that I do not receive a book is when the client
forgets and I forget to follow up. And that happens relatively rarely.
Because I am not very good at running after people, I found that this
"runnning around beforehand" saved me quite a bit of angst.
Hope that makes it clearer.
Christine
****************************************************************************
Christine Jacobs
cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca
Co-Chair
Documentation and Library Systems Program (514) 457-6610, loc 470
John Abbott College Fax: (514) 457-4730
Box 2000
Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9
****************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:52:39 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <rachelr@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: marketing
In-Reply-To: <970911105649_-97513923@emout12.mail.aol.com>
Susan wrote:
>them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you choose
>them?
I looked in Literary Marketplace (available in the library) under the
subjects I was interested in, and cross checked the ones that looked
interesting in Writer's Market. I also just looked in the Boston Yellow
Pages where there are dozens of publishers, and cross checked those as
well. Then I just started calling. I had one "we don't have program like
that here" and 2 asked me to send a sample and resume which I did. I should
probably call those 2 and remind them of my existence. I also forgot that I
did get a referral from someone else and that company asked for samples,
and then called and said I was now on their approved indexers list and they
would call, but it's been at least 6 months and I should probably call
them, too.
One good way to get in is with book packagers rather than directly to
publishers. Book packagers take over the production of the book and hire
their own freelancers (editors, indexers, etc.) and usually don't fuss too
much about fees because they just bill the publishing company for the jobs.
I'm not sure how to find them, though. Anyone have ideas? Probably they're
in the Yellow Pages, too.
Linda,
You'll probably get other responses. I'm not good at getting mailings done,
but some people swear by that approach. The thing is you absolutely must
follow up your mailings with calls anyway. You could practice with a friend
if you want, or at least plan what you're going to say very carefully
before you call. After you do it a few times it gets a lot easier. It's
never fun, not for me anyway. If you get a voice mail, and you aren't fully
comfortable, I suggest not leaving a message until you've planned very
carefully what you'll say. Some voice mail systems allow you to delete your
message if you don't like it, but some don't, and if you sound hesitant, or
unconfident, you'll be worse off than before.
When I did the calls, I set a date to do them. When that date arrived, I
crossed it off and set a new date. When that date arrived I crossed that
off and set a new one. Then my printer started to fail and I needed work,
so I did it right then without setting a date.
Rachel
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Chilmark, Mass
rachelr@tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:09:14 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Norcross <norcross@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book?
C. M. Jacobs wrote:
> To clarify how I handle acquiring copies of books I index:
>
> When I started 15 years ago I naively assumed that I would be sent a
> copy of
> the book automatically. WheN I found that I was not, I came up with a
> solution that saved me and the clients embarrassment (I did not have
> to ask
> and be refused or put off, and the client could plan for my copy from
> the
> start). Often the problems arose with authors who were given their
> alloted
> number of books and then found that after their mother, boss, etc had
> received their copies, there were no more to pass around. Since
> academic
> authors are usually responsible for their own indexes, the publisher
> would
> not look after this. I tell all clients that what I charge is my
> hourly rate
> plus one copy of the book. I include the copy on the estimate /
> contract /
> letter of agreement. Then when I bill I add at the end of the invoice
> (after
> the monetary amount and before the Payable 30 days): "Also one copy of
> [Title]". Now the only times that I do not receive a book is when the
> client
> forgets and I forget to follow up. And that happens relatively rarely.
> Because I am not very good at running after people, I found that this
> "runnning around beforehand" saved me quite a bit of angst.
Makes perfect sense now! Thanks. I'm still working without written
estimates or contracts or letters of agreement. Hmmm, maybe I'll start
a new thread on *that* subject.
Ann
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:15:03 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Norcross <norcross@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement
All my business comes to me over the phone. When approached about a
job, I ask some questions (how long, what topic, when due, etc), ask for
a few sample pages (usually, though not always, especially with known
clients), and then send e-mail or make a phone call to quote a price.
Then I do the index. Then I get paid.
Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a
contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone
else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables,
and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about
clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/
letter/contract for each book?
Thanks for your thoughts,
Ann Norcross
Crossover Information Services
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:36:33 -0500
Reply-To: sdhdis@mail2.theonramp.net
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Susan Danzi Hernandez <sdhdis@MAIL2.THEONRAMP.NET>
Subject: Fw: WARNING: Virus
>
> >FYI
> >
> >Subject: IMPORTANT !!!!
> >
> >WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO
NOT
> >open it!
> >It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letter out
to
> as >many people you can.......this is a new virus and not many
people
> know >about it!
> >
> >This information was received this morning from IBM, please share
it
> >with anyone that might access the Internet.
> >
> >Also,
> >If anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! please delete
>it
> WITHOUT reading it!! This is a warning for all Internet users -
> >there is a dangerous virus propagating across the Internet through
an
> >e-mail message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!".
> >
> >DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!!
> >This message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you are
> >interested in a penpal, but by the time you read this letter, it is
> >too
> >late. The trojan horse" virus will have already infected the boot
> >sector
> >of your hard drive, destroying all of the data present. It is a
> >self-replicating virus, and once the message is read, it will
> >AUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address is
> present >in
> >YOUR mailbox!
> >This virus will DESTROY your hard drive, and holds the potential to
> >DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your in box, and
> >who's
> >mail is in their in box and so on. If this virus keeps getting
> >passed,
> >it has the potential to do a great deal of DAMAGE to computer
> networks >
> >worldwide!!!!
> >Please, delete the message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!" as soon as
> you >see it! And pass this message along to all of your friends,
> relatives >and the other readers of the newsgroups and mailing lists
> which you >are
> >on so that they are not hurt by this dangerous virus!!!! >
> >Please pass this along to everyone you know so this can be stopped.
> >PASS THIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS!!! WARNING !!!
> >There is a new virus going arround in the last couple of days!!!
> >DO NOT open or even look at any mail that you get that says:
> "Returned >
> >or Unable to Deliver" This virus will attach itself to your
computer
> >components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail
items
> >that says this. AOL has said this is a very danderous virus, and
> there >
> >is NO remedy for it at this time, Please Be Careful, And forward to
> >all your on-line friends A.S.A.P.
> >
> >Forward this A.S.A.P. to every single person you know!!!!!!!!! >
> >
> >
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:41:11 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sara Miller-Hively <shively@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fw: WARNING: Virus
In-Reply-To: <199709111838.OAA13683@mailbox.syr.edu>
This virus warning is a hoax - please don't propagate it.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:47:23 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "C. M. Jacobs" <cmjacobs@JOHNABBOTT.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement
Although I may occasionally take on work arranged over the phone, I find it
safest to specify deliverables (using a specifications form), expected date
of receipt of material from publisher, expected due date and hourly
rate/estimate in writing.
If meeting to get contract signature(s) seems awkward and unnecessary, I
will just set out the terms in a letter. I think that using a contract form
helps your credibility, especially with individuals who are not used to
working with freelancers.
Once I have established a working relationship with a client however, I
don't bother to put everything in writing.
I have never had trouble getting paid (luckily), but I have had differences
of opinion over the deliverables. Putting things in writing at the beginning
ensures that the issues are discussed, and that you have a leg to stand on
if the client gets material to you late, changes things in mid-stream...
Christine
****************************************************************************
Christine Jacobs
cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca
Co-Chair
Documentation and Library Systems Program (514) 457-6610, loc 470
John Abbott College Fax: (514) 457-4730
Box 2000
Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:11:27 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal"
<macmia@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Marketing
What I'm wondering is--as a new graduate of some indexing course such as
that offered by the USDA (which I'm not, not yet, but I hope to be some
time next year), how does one go about marketing oneself for that very
first index? I mean, what would you put on a resume, considering your
past experience (prior to taking the indexing course) had nothing to do
with indexing? I don't think any prospective employers really want to
hear about all the miscellaneous odd (and I do mean odd) jobs I've had
over the years, but an entire resume consisting merely of my college
degree and the fact that I took the USDA course seems a bit skimpy, too.
How do you go about marketing yourself when the only thing you have
going for you, indexing-wise, is that one course? I'd like to know now,
so if there are other things I should be doing besides just taking the
course, I can set about doing those things--or trying to. I too would
love to have a mentor, but as I am a military spouse who's always moving
to new locations (and is stuck in a real stinker of a one this
time--the only publishers are an hour and a half away and they are all
fundamentalist Christian pamphleteers who require you to give a
"testimonial" before they will even consider you for a position mopping
the floors) I don't think I am going to be so lucky as to be able to
work with an experienced indexer face-to-face. I have had nothing but
good advice, lots of help, and an excellent rapport with both USDA
instructors (due to a little administrative mix-up, and to a little
mix-up of my own) with which I have ben in contact, and I will certainly
be questioning them along these lines as I get closer to finishing the
course (if I pass, that is!), but as this thread seemed to be going on
right now, I thought I'd jump in, too.
Maria McNeal
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:17:37 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position
Roberta: Where do you work? Suellen
On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:58:29 -0700 Roberta Horowitz <RHorowitz@ACM.ORG>
writes:
>I think this is in response to my message about the cost of mailing
>journals
>could be a factor for not using outside indexers. For clarification,
>I was
>referring to online databases that can be indexing any where from 500
>to
>6000 plus titles (from many publishers) and in these case the journals
>are
>received in house, processed to create the bibliographic records, then
>index
>etc. This type of production flow would be very different than a
>journal
>publisher creating an index for a particular title or creating the end
>of
>the year index that occurs in the final issue of the year.
>
>My normal work load is between 30 and 50 journals a week and those
>boxes
>are heavy.
>
>As with any work situation there are a lot of variables that are not
>always
>obvious which contribute to management decisions.
>
>Roberta Horowitz
>rhorowitz@acm.org
>
>
>At 11:15 PM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>HI all,
>> When I index journals, the publishers send me a copy of the
>journals as
>>they are published. It's like having a subscription. The last few
>for each
>>year come early as folios so that the final issue can have the
>complete
>>index. I don't think its all that expensive for them. After all ,
>they send
>> out thousands to the other 'subscribers'.
>>
>>It must be considerations other than postage that determines their
>need for
>>an in house indexer.
>> Sharon
>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:34:57 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: marketing
At 12:52 PM 9/11/97 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote:
>One good way to get in is with book packagers rather than directly to
>publishers. Book packagers take over the production of the book and hire
>their own freelancers (editors, indexers, etc.) and usually don't fuss too
>much about fees because they just bill the publishing company for the jobs.
>I'm not sure how to find them, though. Anyone have ideas? Probably they're
>in the Yellow Pages, too.
Rachel, I believe a lot of book packagers are listed in LMP as
well...probably under some category like, "Editorial Services" or "Book
Production Services." I work with several and have been very satisfied
overall, but I believe it's a bit risky to jump right into this market.
These companies are not directly responsible for selling books, and
therefore you can wait a long time to get paid...frequently they have to get
their money before you get yours. I think some people on the list have had
poor experiences, though I have not. It would pay to check out a packager
rather carefully before getting seriously involved with an expensive job.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:35:01 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement
At 02:15 PM 9/11/97 -0400, Ann Norcross wrote:
>Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a
>contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone
>else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables,
>and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about
>clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/
>letter/contract for each book?
Only a few of my clients send me contracts to be signed. Most don't bother,
but =I= bother...I always send a friendly letter confirming all the details
we've arranged over the phone. Price, delivery date of proof to me and index
to them, and so on. This is one step removed from a "real" contract, in that
you don't have a signature from the recipient, but if you should ever have
to go to court to collect your money, it is 1000% better than having nothing
but telephone notes.
Creating a paper trail for each job is a top priority with me, and not just
because of some possible bad experience down the line. I tend to forget the
details myself if I don't write them down, and some jobs drag on forever. If
I've got a file folder with copies of letters and phone notes, I can tell
where I am at all times.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:38:00 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: marketing
Yes, I got a job from being in the Indexer Locator. Suellen
On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:59:08 -0400 Susan Wilkerson <Bookindexr@AOL.COM>
writes:
>Hi everyone :-),
>
>I am a beginning indexer as well. I am just starting to market myself.
>How do
>you know which companies use free-lance indexers to be able to even
>call
>them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you
>choose
>them? I am interested in history, genealogy, antiques, computers,
>printing,
>typesetting but will tackle any subject that doesn't require you to
>have a
>thorough knowledge of it. Did you just go to the Literary Market Place
>subject section and just start dialing or is there a more sure way of
>telling
>who uses free-lance indexers.
>
>I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one
>response
>said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use
>free-lance
>indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the
>ASI's
>directory?
>
>Thanks
>Susan
>bookindexr
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:01:08 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <rachelr@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: marketing
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970911193457.009cd938@slonet.org>
Sonsie wrote:
>These companies are not directly responsible for selling books, and
>therefore you can wait a long time to get paid...frequently they have to get
>their money before you get yours.
This is quite true. The one I work for paid anywhere from 4 to 12(!) weeks
after delivery of the index. Another one I worked for as a copyeditor,
though, paid upon delivery. So it really varies widely.
RR
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Chilmark, Mass
rachelr@tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:07:19 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Marketing
At 01:11 PM 9/11/97 -0600, Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal wrote:
>What I'm wondering is--as a new graduate of some indexing course such as
>that offered by the USDA (which I'm not, not yet, but I hope to be some
>time next year), how does one go about marketing oneself for that very
>first index? I mean, what would you put on a resume, considering your
>past experience (prior to taking the indexing course) had nothing to do
>with indexing?
Having taken the USDA indexing course is an excellent qualification, and
joining ASI (and stating that you are a member) gives you a certain
professional aura even if you're not terribly experienced yet.
To live up to that aura, and to provide some indexes to cite in your resume,
you're going to have to hustle up some work, though--probably of the
nonpaying variety, but a prospective employer need not know what is done
gratis and what is paid employment. One of the first jobs I had was indexing
five years' worth of issues of the journal for an obscure horticultural
society I used to belong to. I got paid nothing, I learned an enormous
amount, and it looked mighty spiffy on my resume.
Create an index for an otherwise-excellent nonfiction book you've read (or
are willing to read) that is lacking this essential tool. This does double
duty: you can put it on your resume, and you might even want to write to the
publisher offering to index the next edition. Offer to work with your local
newspaper to produce an index of last year's back issues. Do the same for
the newsletter of a group you belong to. Find any other way you can think of
to produce real work samples that can be shown to prospective employers or
listed on your resume.
And, if you have education, experience, or skills in some particular subject
area (even if you've never indexed a book in that field), this is also worth
putting on your resume. Many publishers prefer to work with indexers who
already know the literature or have experience in a specific field...even if
they are relatively inexperienced as indexers.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:51:41 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Blythe Woolston <Bznwoos@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume
Sonsie wrote:
<<Create an index for an otherwise-excellent nonfiction book you've read (or
are willing to read) that is lacking this essential tool. This does double
duty: you can put it on your resume, and you might even want to write to the
publisher offering to index the next edition. >>
How do you indicate that such indexes are unpublished? I am working on
several practice/sample indexes right now. If I post them on a web page or
send them as hard copy samples, I will be able to label them clearly as what
they are--my own unpublished work. I want to be very honest with
prospective clients, but a title followed by "unplublished" doesn't seem at
all convincing.
My USDA instructor emphasized the point that it is difficult to evaluate the
quality of an index without the document to provide context. I guess my
real question is this. . .
What do you think a prospective client is looking for when they look at a
sample index--or a resume for that matter?
Thank you.
Blythe Woolston
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:55:49 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" <pgottlie@FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: VW Miscellany back issues
11 September 1997
Back issues of the _Virginia Woolf Miscellany_ should be available from J.J.
Wilson, English Dept., Sonoma State University, Rohnert Park, CA 94928,
phone number (707) 664-2140 or (707) 664-2882.
-- Best wishes, Laura Moss Gottlieb
Laura Moss Gottlieb
Freelance Indexer
212 Highland Avenue
Madison, Wisconsin 53705
(608) 233-4599
lauragottlieb@juno.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:42:16 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2;
Can't you "redirect" LPT1 > LPT2 somehow? Or use the command:
MODE LPT1=LPT2? In other words, Cindex sends output thinking that it
is going to its normal LPT1, but the system really send it to LPT2.
THAT WAS MY ORIGINAL NOTE. I went to Peter Norton's immense DOS book
to see whether not I was talking thru my hat. I was. MODE may only
be used to redirect a parallel port output to a serial port, as in
MODE LPT1=COM2. [I have done this when using a serial printer.]
Norton also mentions the method hinted at above. Typing DIR of
course displays the directory on the screen; typing DIR > LPT1
will *PRINT* the directory on LPT1. Perhaps there is some
transmogrification of these commands that will work for you.
I'm not really a DOS expert.
Cheers, dllt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:24:32 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: apprentice
In-Reply-To: <199709110405.XAA26481@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>Dear Carol Roberts:
>
>You mentioned in your recent post that you had the aid of a mentor. How
>did you find such a person? How did you present yourself to them to show
>that having an apprentice would be of benefit to them?
>
>Kevin A. Broccoli
If memory serves, I simply asked the good folks on Index-L if anyone would
be willing. I wasn't an apprentice in the sense that my mentor trained me.
It worked out great, partly because I *wasn't* looking for someone to train
me, just to answer some questions, take a look at my work and my resume,
help me get my foot in the door. It was an informal arrangement, and I
think she did it more as a sort of professional courtesy than because she
expected to benefit from it (at least in a tangible way). Naively I think,
it never even occurred to me to make a case that I would somehow be
benefiting her.
I think it was something of a fluke that I connected with the right person.
I wouldn't necessarily recommend that method newbies (although I've seen it
done on this list many times). I would recommend that people try to meet a
few indexers (at chapter meetings or by hand selecting indexers from
Index-L, rather than sending out a request to any and all, like I did), so
you can know more about the person before you approach her or him.
I recently "graduated" my first apprentice myself. She had known me for a
year before she even approached me about it. She was also a lot more
prepared and less naive than I was; she showed me all kinds of samples. I
then checked with her indexing instructor to see what he could tell me
about her skills. Then we sat down together and talked about just what she
would need/want from me, what kind of time I could commit to, what kind of
financial arrangement we would have, etc.--then I wrote up a contract. It
appears to have worked out splendidly for both of us. I wasn't able to take
the time to train her (which she didn't need), but I *was* able to help her
get her client base started.
I might as well say this, before I start getting letters and phone calls:
I'm not available to take on another apprentice just now. Not until my
husband and I figure out whether he'll have a job next year--or whether
he'll be my next apprentice.
Anyway, I hope those two "stories" help.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:24:32 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: bidding on job
In-Reply-To: <199709110405.XAA26481@mixcom.mixcom.com>
When it's a straightforward back-of-the-book index, usually the client
already has my background info, so I simply bid. If my bid is higher than
my base rate, it's because the description of the book includes details
that will take more time (e.g., smaller type size, author wants
nonsubstantive as well as substantive endnotes indexed), and I say so.
Sometimes, a client sends me a sample chapter, and I'm able to make a quick
assessment of number of indexables per page.
Things are a bit different when I'm bidding on a more complicated or
squishy job (one that's likely to change during the process), such as a
newspaper. Then I include with the bid a report on how long the sample took
me to do, a proposal for how to handle anything unusual, and a sample (a
preliminary index of one issue of the newspaper, for example).
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:13:06 +1100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Australian Society of Indexers <aussi@ZETA.ORG.AU>
Subject: Free BEAT English Thesaurus 3.1.2.p available
Hi
I have just received the latest copy of BEAT, a freeware thesaurus for DOS
with English online help.
Download from AusSI's site:
http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/download/Beat312p.zip
It is about 104KB zipped.
Tell me what you think of it. I might do a review of it in the AusSI Newsletter.
Dwight
-------
Dwight Walker
Webmaster and Editor
Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026
Australia
+61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058
URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:20:55 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume
At 04:51 PM 9/11/97 -0400, Blythe Woolston wrote:
>How do you indicate that such indexes are unpublished? I am working on
>several practice/sample indexes right now. If I post them on a web page or
>send them as hard copy samples, I will be able to label them clearly as what
>they are--my own unpublished work. I want to be very honest with
>prospective clients, but a title followed by "unplublished" doesn't seem at
>all convincing.
Well, I was lucky...my first few samples of this type WERE published; I just
didn't get paid for them. So I never confronted the ticklish problem of
whether or not to say some or all of the indexes I listed were unpublished.
I think you're right--that for the sake of honesty you must indicate that
they haven't been published if they haven't been. There must be some good
wording for this; does "unpublished" really sound THAT bad? This is another
reason I'd scare up a real--if unpaid--assignment or two so that you can use
those comfortably.
Another suggestion is to work directly with an author, since authors
traditionally are responsible for indexing their own books. Frequently they
turn this duty over to the publisher, who then hires a professional indexer,
but many authors insist on doing it themselves (usually to save the money)
and end up with a real mess on their hands...or not enough time to complete
the work. If you live reasonably near a university campus, there are bound
to be professors who are writing books and getting them published...and in
need of indexing help. They will pay you a pittance, but you will end up
with a published index worthy of your resume.
>My USDA instructor emphasized the point that it is difficult to evaluate the
>quality of an index without the document to provide context. I guess my
>real question is this. . .
>What do you think a prospective client is looking for when they look at a
>sample index--or a resume for that matter?
Even now, when I have to edit my resume to provide only a sample of the
numerous indexes I've created, it would be difficult to evaluate my work
based simply on that list. Unless it's the publisher who published one of
those books, or someone willing to locate one of them and study it, the
quality is an unknown factor. I think one thing that helps is "known
quantities" in terms of who you've worked for. If you've done some work for
a well-known publisher, or indexed a book that people might be familiar
with, it helps. If you're looking for work in periodicals and have several
periodical indexes on your list, that helps. As a last resort, the editor
who is thinking of hiring you can (and very well may) call a few of the
publishers on your list asking about your work.
I know what =I= would look for in a sample index, but since I'm an indexer
by trade, I'm probably a lot more demanding than a production editor who has
many other responsibilities and is usually dealing with an index at the very
last minute. Even if you don't have the original document to scan, a good
sample can tell you some important things.
First and maybe foremost, NO MISSPELLINGS! And no other
obvious errors of usage, punctuation, etc.
Page numbers checked carefully for obvious errors (61-61, or
other clear typos)
No long strings of undifferentiated locators (i.e., plenty of
subheadings where needed, with no more than, say, five
page numbers or ranges per entry)
A clear attempt at content analysis (not just a listing of names
and terms, but an obvious framework of concepts that are
in the text but not necessarily a vocabulary term or proper
name)
Reasonable use of "see" and "see also" references to guide the
reader to the needed material. Be careful with "see also,"
so that you don't have what amounts to repetitious entries
under several similar terms.
Finally, if you're providing samples from your own files and not
photocopied from the printed index, make sure your copies
are clean, crisp, neatly typeset, and in a type size large
enough to read easily (you shouldn't use the same 8-point
type on 9 point leading that the publisher may be forced to
print in to save space). Make them look absolutely
professional.
If you can do this, you'll have no trouble getting work...though it may take
a few months to find that first job.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:28:56 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: bidding on job
If the topic of bidding on indexing jobs interests you, I'm hoping to do a
workshop on the subject at the ASI Conference next May in Seattle. I've got
my proposal in, and am hoping it'll be selected.
Be on the lookout for it when registration materials come out next Spring.
To add to Carol's list of enclosures, I also include my CV -- resume, sample
books indexed, etc. -- so the person is completely aware of my
qualifications.
Janet Perlman
Southwest Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:32:11 +0800
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith <stroud@NETVIGATOR.COM>
Subject: Marketing
One thing I marvel about in indexing is how NO experience, however
trivial, is ever wasted. You may not know enough to be able to copyedit
a book on the subject, but if you are familiar with it from an 'odd'
job, you may well be able to index on it.
I am not talking about an ingrowing-toenail operation enabling you to
index medical textbooks, but about indexing books for the general public
where that odd job means that you know more about the subject than I do.
Best not offer whatever-it-is as an Expertise, though - though you might
mention the broad subject in a list.
I once came badly unstuck with a book about computers (my listed
interest are arts/humanities). The level was way above my head and it
remains the only book I have ever sent back.
Christine
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:32:47 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: packagers
Although I'm swamped trying to get an index done, I've finally caught up on
the last week or two of email, and I'd like to add my knowledge of packagers.
For the most part, I've had very, very good experience with packagers paying
me on time, which means within 30-35 days. I've worked for five different
packagers that I can bring to mind right now, and four out of the five had
excellent track records. The fifth, for whom I only worked once, finally paid
me after three months of constant phone calls and letters. That was very
difficult, to say the least. But the others paid quickly, some within two to
three weeks of me sending the invoice. So, my advice is, don't write off the
packagers. Now, the thing you have to watch out for in my experience is how
much they'll pay. Some consistently offer low bids to the publishers, and
that translates to low rates. Some are more realistic, so rates are decent,
and some value their freelancers a great deal and pay pretty well. But, they
are worth a try.
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:59:01 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Charles R. Anderson" <c.anderson.seattle@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: marketing
I'm sure there will be those who disagree with me, but in regard to your
question about getting jobs through ASI listing, I have to say that, early
in my career in indexing (25 years ago), I belonged to ASI for some years
and was listed. I never got a single contact through the listing. Then I
dropped out of ASI for a number of years and have recently rejoined. I
haven't bothered to submit my name to the Register. Understand, I'm not
knocking ASI as our professional association, just reporting my results
from being listed.
To me, the primary way I have gotten jobs over the years has been through
word-of-mouth from one editor to another. I've found that, at least in
geographic areas, editors from different presses tend to know each other,
and when you've done good work for one, they will recommend you to someone
else. I realize this begs the question of how you first build that trust -
but I'm really only responding to your question about the Register.
Charles Anderson
Seattle, WA.
Charles Anderson
c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:59:04 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Charles R. Anderson" <c.anderson.seattle@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2;
Yes, my first thought too was the MODE command, but as you point out, it is
for directing output from a parallel to a serial port. Oddly enough, in an
early DOS book (around v. 1.0), one paragaph states that MODE can direct
output to "a second parallel port."
Thanks anyway for the suggestion.
Charles Anderson
Charles Anderson
c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:18:05 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Michael K. Smith" <mksmith1@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: copyediting more fun?
In-Reply-To: <199709110454.XAA04124@SWBELL.net>
At 12:49 AM 9/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I would like to put my vote in on this subject. I vote for indexing as
>infinitely more fun. I copyedit every once and a while, when broke or when
>offered a terrific job. Other than that, my business (which at the start was
>about 70% copyediting, 30% indexing, 0% proofreading) is presently 90%
>indexing. And that is by choice.
>Leslie
>Frank Words Indexing and Editing
I think *both* can be "more fun" (which is what I meant to communicate in
the first place...). I know myself -- and doing only one thing all the time
would bore me silly. After doing, say, a dozen indexes in a row, a couple
of editing or writing assignments is very welcome... and vice versa, of
course.
Mike
Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services
mksmith1@swbell.net smith_editorial@hotmail.com
http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:37:55 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carolyn Weaver <CGWeaver@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement
In a message dated 97-09-11 14:18:18 EDT, you write:
<< Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a
contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone
else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables,
and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about
clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/
letter/contract for each book? >>
With a new client, I always get something in writing - either a contract (a
personalized version of the ASI sample contract) or a letter of agreement
outlining the terms, fee, etc. Sometimes the agreement is nothing more than
my bid letter, which the client verbally accepts. I often use the format
checklist from the ASI sample contract even if I don't use the contract
itself, which contains a signature line, index specs, and fee. I don't know
if the latter would hold up in court, but at least if gives me something in
writing if I ever get in a dispute with the client. Sometimes the
letter/contract is initiated by the client, which is also fine with me. For
long-term clients I usually skip the written agreements unless their
expectations (or my rates) change.
Carolyn Weaver
Weaver Indexing Service
Bellevue, WA.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:04:03 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carolyn Weaver <CGWeaver@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe,
but it doesn't need to be that way.
In a message dated 97-09-10 17:19:08 EDT, you write:
The University for which I work full time has different overhead rates for
classified staff, faculty & professional staff, and hourly. (The varying
rates reflect different pension contributions, health benefits, etc.) We
assume that the actual 'cost' of a new employee is roughly 30 percent more
than the salary.
As a freelancer in a state with no state income tax (they get us with 8.6%
sales tax instead!) I would have to charge about 40% more than my state
salary to make an equivalent hourly rate. If I were paying state income tax,
the differential would have to be higher.
Carolyn Weaver
Weaver Indexing Service
Bellevue, Wa.
<< Recently, one of you suggested that indexers should be charging about
1.3 or 1.5 as much as normal employees earn (or cost?) in order to
cover our own costs for insurance and so on. Perhaps that person will
come back and refresh our collective memory. I think the next step would
be a rates survey, and a salary survey, so we can know how much cheaper
we come. >>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:16:13 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Karen Lane <klane@DIGITAL.NET>
Subject: Copyediting-L
>Could someone please tell me how to get in touch with Copyedit-L
>(or whatever it's called)?
Christine:
It's copyediting-l
If you need to speak to a person, that would be
Bill Blinn, one of the listowners. His e-mail
address is
bblinn@sprynet.com
If you want to subscribe, here's some information lifted from the
welcome message:
The mailing list server is
known as "listproc", and any administrative request must be sent to
the server at this address:
listproc@cornell.edu
All commands must be sent to <listproc@cornell.edu>. Because ListProc
is a computer program, you must follow the command format *exactly*.
Type the command on the first line in the body of your message. Don't
indent the command, or add any extra text or extra spaces.
To subscribe:
SUBSCRIBE COPYEDITING-L Your Name
To unsubscribe:
UNSUBSCRIBE COPYEDITING-L
To stop your mail temporarily (mail will not be stored):
SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL POSTPONE
To un-POSTPONE your mail:
SET COPYEDITING-L (choose one of the mail options: MAIL ACK,
MAIL NOACK, MAIL DIGEST)
To receive individual messages, including your own posts:
SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL ACK
To receive individual messages, except your own posts:
SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL NOACK
To receive several messages as one larger message (default setting):
SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL DIGEST
To check your subscription settings:
QUERY COPYEDITING-L
To get the index of archived files:
INDEX COPYEDITING-L
To get a specific archived file (e.g., digest1531--NO SPACE
between "digest" and the number):
GET COPYEDITING-L digest<fill in number, delete brackets>
Hope this helps.
Karen Lane
klane@digital.net
http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~kl08739/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:44:06 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carolyn Weaver <CGWeaver@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: marketing
In a message dated 97-09-11 11:14:29 EDT, you write:
<< I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one response
said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use
free-lance
indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the ASI's
directory? >>
I've done only one or two mass mailings since I started freelancing, and got
one or two jobs with each one; par for the course. And yes, I have received
inquiries and jobs as referrals from ASI; I have no idea if publishers saw
the printed Index Locator or were referred by ASI headquarters from my
inclusion in the database. But the listing has definitely paid for itself
each year.
One other marketing mechanism that nobody has mentioned: contacts made at
professional meetings. I have gotten jobs from (1) contacts made at the ASI
annual meeting; (2) staffing an exhibit booth at a (non-indexing)
professional meeting; (3) schmoozing with a secretary whose boss was writing
a book; (4) word of mouth referrals from other indexers. Personal referrals
cost nothing (other than reciprocating now and then) and are probably the
most effective form of marketing.
Carolyn Weaver
Weaver Indexing Service
Bellevue, WA.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:22:39 +0800
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith <stroud@NETVIGATOR.COM>
Subject: Re Copyediting-L
Thanks for all the information about Copyediting-L, which I have passed
on to the friend who wants to join it. He is a copyeditor, not an
indexer, and was beginning to envy all the goodies I have been getting
from Index-L!
Christine
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:17:21 SAST-2
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Davies, Tessa, Ms" <tessa@UCTLIB.UCT.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume
Thanks Sonsie - as a beginner indexer and new to the listserv I
found your thoughts really interesting and constructive.
Tessa
> Well, I was lucky...my first few samples of this type WERE published; I just
> didn't get paid for them. So I never confronted the ticklish problem of
> whether or not to say some or all of the indexes I listed were unpublished.
> I think you're right--that for the sake of honesty you must indicate that
> they haven't been published if they haven't been. There must be some good
> wording for this; does "unpublished" really sound THAT bad? This is another
> reason I'd scare up a real--if unpaid--assignment or two so that you can use
> those comfortably.
>
> Another suggestion is to work directly with an author, since authors
> traditionally are responsible for indexing their own books. Frequently they
> turn this duty over to the publisher, who then hires a professional indexer,
> but many authors insist on doing it themselves (usually to save the money)
> and end up with a real mess on their hands...or not enough time to complete
> the work. If you live reasonably near a university campus, there are bound
> to be professors who are writing books and getting them published...and in
> need of indexing help. They will pay you a pittance, but you will end up
> with a published index worthy of your resume.
>
> Even now, when I have to edit my resume to provide only a sample of the
> numerous indexes I've created, it would be difficult to evaluate my work
> based simply on that list. Unless it's the publisher who published one of
> those books, or someone willing to locate one of them and study it, the
> quality is an unknown factor. I think one thing that helps is "known
> quantities" in terms of who you've worked for. If you've done some work for
> a well-known publisher, or indexed a book that people might be familiar
> with, it helps. If you're looking for work in periodicals and have several
> periodical indexes on your list, that helps. As a last resort, the editor
> who is thinking of hiring you can (and very well may) call a few of the
> publishers on your list asking about your work.
>
> I know what =I= would look for in a sample index, but since I'm an indexer
> by trade, I'm probably a lot more demanding than a production editor who has
> many other responsibilities and is usually dealing with an index at the very
> last minute. Even if you don't have the original document to scan, a good
> sample can tell you some important things.
>
> First and maybe foremost, NO MISSPELLINGS! And no other
> obvious errors of usage, punctuation, etc.
> Page numbers checked carefully for obvious errors (61-61, or
> other clear typos)
> No long strings of undifferentiated locators (i.e., plenty of
> subheadings where needed, with no more than, say, five
> page numbers or ranges per entry)
> A clear attempt at content analysis (not just a listing of names
> and terms, but an obvious framework of concepts that are
> in the text but not necessarily a vocabulary term or proper
> name)
> Reasonable use of "see" and "see also" references to guide the
> reader to the needed material. Be careful with "see also,"
> so that you don't have what amounts to repetitious entries
> under several similar terms.
> Finally, if you're providing samples from your own files and not
> photocopied from the printed index, make sure your copies
> are clean, crisp, neatly typeset, and in a type size large
> enough to read easily (you shouldn't use the same 8-point
> type on 9 point leading that the publisher may be forced to
> print in to save space). Make them look absolutely
> professional.
>
> If you can do this, you'll have no trouble getting work...though it may take
> a few months to find that first job.
>
>
>
>
>
> =Sonsie=
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:26:45 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Susan Wilkerson <Bookindexr@AOL.COM>
Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat Room
Hi,
Sorry I gave ya'll the wrong Uin number this is the correct one. You can send
message to me on the other one but this is the chat room number: 3240967
Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:19:19 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement
In-Reply-To: <199709111941.MAA11359@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
I have to admit to leaping without a "parachute" unless the client sends me
a contract. However, because of the type of clients I have, I usually get
calls asking me if they can send me the proofs that day and if I can get
the index back to them a few days later. So, there isn't any time for
sending contracts back and forth or sample pages, etc. In fact, I'm working
on an index right now where the client called me Tuesday, the pages arrived
early Wednesday morning by express courier, and the index is due Sunday.
(No, that's not a typo. I'm FTPing it to the client who is also working
Sunday.) Fortunately, I haven't been burned.
I schedule very flexibly. For example, one client asked me to block out an
entire month for them in August of 96. I merrily scheduled in other
projects, fortunately, and still haven't received the project from them
over a year later. (They're still working on it.) A contract for that
specific project probably would have held them to a cancellation or
postponement fee, but they're an excellent client and I just work around
their scheduling vagaries.
I do have some contracts with clients that are general--not specific to one
book. We negotiate rates on the fly according the specific project. With
one client, my per page rate is set in their Accounts Payable department,
so I always must invoice at that particular rate. However, if a project
requires a rapid turnaround (like the 24-hour one I did for them last
month) or requires unusual overhead, I have an agreement with the editor to
adjust upward in my favor the indexable page count.
Sonsie mentioned tracking details in a paper trail. I keep a project log
for that purpose, simply a notebook in which I write the project number and
devote the page(s) to all notes about the project, phonecons, etc. I also
establish a lot of my paper trail via email messages which I retain in
separate mailboxes for each client.
Lynn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:39:23 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Survey? Happiness with ISPs
How do you all connect?
This message from Carol jogs my memory a bit. It won't be long before
good old Indiana University will be pulling the plug on yours truly
(They're done with me, now that I'm no longer paying all that tuition!)
so I'll be looking for an Internet Service Provider (ISP) _and_ an
Internet Presence Provider (IPP) for hosting my web page. Of course, the
second solution should take care of the first, I suppose.
Can we do an informal survey? Are Index-L folks out there having a lot
of frustration with their ISPs, or really happy to recommend some of
them? Of course only the biggies will cover small towns in remote areas
like this one.
More importantly, perhaps, how did all of you shop for yours? And were
there other questions you wish you had asked? I'm also interested in
knowing about the difficulties experienced by those who need AOL etc. as
"simple" ISPs and discover Internet compatibility difficulites e.g.
delays sending mail to/ and collecting from the internet "outside."
Best, and thank you in advance.
David
Carol Roberts wrote:
>
> > . . . If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account, can you
> >deduct part or all of the monthly fees . . .
> Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
> Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
> Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
> http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:32:04 -0600
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal"
<macmia@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Marketing
Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote:
>
> One thing I marvel about in indexing is how NO experience, however
> trivial, is ever wasted. You may not know enough to be able to copyedit
> a book on the subject, but if you are familiar with it from an 'odd'
> job, you may well be able to index on it....
> Best not offer whatever-it-is as an Expertise, though - though you might
> mention the broad subject in a list.
Much as I hate to quote so much from a previous post--well, sorry, I
felt it necessary in this case. Anyway, what would you suggest? Some
type of list to be appended to the bottom of a resume headed--what?
Interests? Other job skills? I have avoided doing this so far because I
think it makes me look like sort of an idiot. I may have done everything
from hot-walking race horses to teaching a class in gun safety to
raising chickens, but the fact that I have done all these and more (too
much more) has always seemed to me to scream "dilettante!", and so I
avoid the mention of these various and sundries. Are you telling me that
now, perhaps, I should? I guess the question is how to present one's
experiences so they come across as being of value...and this is what I'm
not quite sure how to do. (Still, it's an intriguing suggestion. And
gives me a hint what types of books to try for--computer books would be
right out for me, too.)
Maria McNeal
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:53:07 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Elaine R. Firestone" <elaine@CALVAL.GSFC.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Fwd: References about indexing
Hi all. Think you can help Theresa? Reply to her directly. TIA.
elaine
>Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:17:27 -0700
>Reply-To: COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu
>Sender: owner-COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>From: Theresa Navarro <TheresaN@mdli.com>
>To: Copy Editors and Editing <COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu>
>Subject: References about indexing
>X-To: "'COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu'" <COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu>
>
>I'm a technical editor at a small software company and am new to this list.
>I don't know if this subject has been covered before, so please forgive me
>if it has.
>
>I'm looking for indexing references. Our writing group is preparing a
>rather large web site. We want to create a master index that will include
>several large documents, most of which are sys admin docs. I've been
>looking for references about indexing both paper documents and large web
>sites. I've taken several classes by Lori Lathrop through the STC which
>were very good. However, I need more complete references. Does anyone have
>any suggestions for books that I could purchase or web sites that I might
>browse?
>
>Thanks for your guidance.
>
Elaine R. Firestone, ELS
elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov
elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:15:35 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Kari Bero <bero@CYBERSPACE.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: References about indexing
In-Reply-To: <v03007880b03f07a32373@[128.183.121.192]>
The ASI web site has one page devoted to web sites that include indexes.
It covers the kinds of indexes that sites create _and_ it includes
examples of site indexes. This is exactly the kind of question this page
was created to answer.
To get there, from the home page (http://www.well.com/user/asi/) under the
category "Resources for Indexers", click on "Indexing the Web". Or, go
directly to that page (http://www.well.com/user/asi/webndx.htm). As
always, if you visit that page and don't find what you're looking for,
please let the webmaster know so we can make the page more useful. 8-)
Hope that helps,
Kari
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
American Society of Indexers (ASI)
http://www.well.com/user/asi/
ASI Web Committee:
Kari Bero (webmaster)
Nancy Cannon
Seth Maislin (co-webmaster)
Janet Perlman (ASI board representative)
Marilyn Rowland
Charlotte Skuster
Neva Smith
Jan Wright
Pilar Wyman (chair)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Elaine R. Firestone wrote:
> Hi all. Think you can help Theresa? Reply to her directly. TIA.
>
> elaine
>
> >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:17:27 -0700
> >Reply-To: COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu
> >Sender: owner-COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu
> >Precedence: bulk
> >From: Theresa Navarro <TheresaN@mdli.com>
> >To: Copy Editors and Editing <COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu>
> >Subject: References about indexing
> >X-To: "'COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu'" <COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu>
> >
> >I'm a technical editor at a small software company and am new to this list.
> >I don't know if this subject has been covered before, so please forgive me
> >if it has.
> >
> >I'm looking for indexing references. Our writing group is preparing a
> >rather large web site. We want to create a master index that will include
> >several large documents, most of which are sys admin docs. I've been
> >looking for references about indexing both paper documents and large web
> >sites. I've taken several classes by Lori Lathrop through the STC which
> >were very good. However, I need more complete references. Does anyone have
> >any suggestions for books that I could purchase or web sites that I might
> >browse?
> >
> >Thanks for your guidance.
> >
>
>
> Elaine R. Firestone, ELS
> elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov
> elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:23:22 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: marketing & unpublished samples
In-Reply-To: <199709120400.XAA10472@mixcom.mixcom.com>
Linda, I've been freelance indexing full-time for four years, have always
had plenty of work, sometimes more than I can handle--and I've never made a
single cold call. Now some indexers think the cold calls are absolutely
necessary, but I've found the letters (with resume and, when you're a
beginner, samples) and lots of networking to be sufficient. By the way, I
don't follow up on the letters with a call (so I don't say in the letter
that I will). This may not be the most efficient method of marketing
oneself, but it *is* the method I'm at least capable of.
I have nothing against the *idea* of cold calling (or follow-up calls),
mind you. It's just that I personally can't bring myself to do it. In fact,
I've given a workshop to my ASI chapter called "Marketing for the Shy:
Alternatives to Cold Calling."
So I would recommend you go ahead and polish up a nice letter, resume,
business card, samples--but be sure to have some indexers or nitpicky
friends look them over first to make sure they're very professional. Make a
list of subjects you'd like to index (subjects you studied in school,
hobbies, just stuff you've read up on--whatever), and send letters out to
25-50 publishers who publish those subjects. In addition, rev up your
networking, making heavy use of your business card. Give 'em out like candy.
To answer your question about life before indexing: I was an in-house
(all-around) editor and a freelance copy editor. Before that I was a grad
student in philosophy. I have done a bit of proofreading as well; my
recollection is that the pay was pathetic.
I hope that helps.
Regarding the question someone raised about unpublished indexing samples,
the prospective client can already tell by your resume that you're a
beginning indexer. So adding "unpublished" after the titles you list isn't
going to shock or disgust them. I would simply do the following sort of
thing:
Indexing Experience
title, by author (publisher or organization, year)
title, by author (unpublished index; publisher or organization, year)
title, by author (unpublished index; publisher or organization, year)
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:23:22 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement
In-Reply-To: <199709120400.XAA10472@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a
>contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone
>else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables,
>and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about
>clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/
>letter/contract for each book?
>
When I was starting out, I asked two indexers (who'd each been indexing
more than 10 yrs.) whether they used a contract. They each said no. When I
asked them whether they'd ever been stiffed, only one of them had
been--just once. So it seemed to me that the time it took to do the
contract thing wasn't worth it.
But, I do use a contract with authors (also with publishers who've had
seriously slipped schedules before). Not because I think authors are
dishonest or anything, but because I think they're less experienced with
the whole indexing thing, so it's good to have all the terms spelled out.
In those cases, I spell out all the terms that are important to me in a
letter format. Then at the end, I say, "If you agree with these terms,
please sign a copy of this letter and return it to me," by such and such a
date, if the timing's critical (I like to have 'em back before I finish the
index). I add a line for the date and author's signature.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:01:32 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe,
but it doesn't need to be that way.
In-Reply-To: <199709120312.UAA04048@mx2.u.washington.edu>
Carolyn: forgot to mention, unless all on the list want to move out here,
that we have a relatively high B and O tax on services, 1.5 percent of
gross, at the state level although the first $16,000 or so of gross income
is exempt. There is a city tax on gross too (think it is now 20% of the
state tax) with a similar exemption, although everyone has to pay a
business licence fee of $75.00. There are also numerous irritation taxes,
including the use tax (sales tax on items purchased in other states upon
which no Washington sales tax has been paid) and, the worst of all, the
county property tax on things like computers with no depreciation so that
an old computer not worth squat that one paid $2,000 for 10 years ago is
still taxed at that (I have paid the equivalent of a third of the taxes I
pay on my house for my computers and books, etc.). When I throw in my
telephone, other home office expenses, medical, retirement, I usually need
to make, at my current level of volume, twice what I would as an employee
to make a profit. I think your 40% is way too low. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:06:01 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement
In-Reply-To: <199709121333.GAA01030@mx2.u.washington.edu>
Indexing and contracts: having learned the hard way, I always, without
exception, use a contract which specifies all details, including
formatting of the index. My contracts make clear that it is up to the
author and/or publisher to specify any formatting or other publishing
details out front. If changes come later that require formatting changes
compared what is in my contract, my contract makes clear that additional
charges will apply. It also makes clear that I fix my mistakes, if any, at
my cost. My contract includes a binding estimate for basic work. What
I charge changes only if the author or the publisher decides to play
games. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:39:40 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Written estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement and such
I agree with the importance of "getting it (and giving) in writing,"
Paul. No firm who has ever hesitated at signing my contract (I require
that) has ever given me an adequate reason for refusing to sign. In the
age of faxes it is rarely "too late."
I understand that the current business etiquette of indexing might go
against this, but you sure sleep better at night, "having it in
writing." I think clients also respect you more when they see you in
this light: a a professional doing business in a very business-like
manner. Then it is easier to be chummy with clients, without it being
misconstrued, too.
David
P. Buell wrote:
>
> Indexing and contracts: having learned the hard way, I always, without
> exception, use a contract which specifies all details, including
> formatting of the index. My contracts make clear that it is up to the
> author and/or publisher to specify any formatting or other publishing
> details out front. If changes come later that require formatting changes
> compared what is in my contract, my contract makes clear that additional
> charges will apply. It also makes clear that I fix my mistakes, if any, at
> my cost. My contract includes a binding estimate for basic work. What
> I charge changes only if the author or the publisher decides to play
> games. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:41:36 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: TShere7566@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st job/resume
In reply to the question about how to indicate that a sample index you're
submitting is unpublished:
When I do this, I include a "disclaimer" sentence in my cover/marketing
letter that goes like this, more or less: "...Please note that because I'm
fairly new to indexing, these are not published indexes. One was prepared for
[fill in the blank: an outdoor guidebook, for example] that was published
without one; the other [fill in the blank again]. They were prepared without
length limits or style guidelines; of course, other index styles are possible
depending on the client's needs." That last part is important, I think.
I don't think admitting to being new has been a bad thing to do. I've sent
out about two dozen marketing letters since March '97 which have included
similar language; so far the results have been three jobs from one publisher;
one job offer from another, which I didn't get because I was too expensive;
and a couple of "we're impressed with your work and resume and will contact
you when we have something for you" replies.
Of course, once you've done a paid job, you can change the language to
something like "...I am enclosing an index I prepared for a cookbook now in
press."
Good luck!
Therese Shere
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:46:49 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: referrals through ASI
I personally have not received any jobs through ASI, at least not directly.
BUT, when I worked in-house, my chief copyeditor hired all indexers using the
ASI directory. She certainly had some regulars whom she frequently hired, but
she hit the ASI directory on a regular basis. And so I was very angry with
myself that I wasn't on the ball and forgot to mail in my registry
information last spring. I'm sure she was not the only chief
copyeditor/editor-in-chief/etc. who does that kind of thing.
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:49:31 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Written estimates, contracts,
and letters of agreement and such
In-Reply-To: <199709121640.JAA09726@mx5.u.washington.edu>
David: they way I get them to sign is by providing a firm estimate as part
of the contract. It changes only under very specific circumstances which
are spelled out. Clients like that. Paul
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:18:20 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: referrals through ASI
To add to the mix ..........
I've gotten quite a few new clients from ASI listings in their directory and
their marketing tool (you pay for that listing separately). Since the latter
is indexed (of course!) by subject matter as well as by type of material
indexed, those contacts are people who are interested in just what I do, and
usually lead to a successful relationship.
It is also important to attend conferences and workshops -- both ASI's
national conference, and local chapter workshops and meetings, if they are
anywhere near you. The exposure you get at those, the people you meet, may
be a potential source of work, through networking. Never underestimate the
value of networking -- it's a powerful business tool. Just meet as many
people as you can in your field, and keep up those relationships.
Janet Perlman
Southwest Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:44:18 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JEVN@AOL.COM
Subject: Question re Photos in book
I have a question about indexing a coffee-table book (most of my experience
is with more content-oriented books).
This book has full-page photos, the captions to which are in the form of
sidebars on facing text pages. Do I enter page numbers for both pages, ie.
the page with the caption sidebar and the facing photo itself, or just one or
the other?
Anyone with experience or opinions on this?
Thanks!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:08:41 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Erika Millen <emillen@SAMS.MCP.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
Just to be fair, there are also expenses for in-house staff that freelancers may
not have to deal with: commuting expenses (gas, auto costs, and time lost
during the commute), child care, business clothing and dry cleaning. A lot of
in-house people also keep up home offices at their own expense (it's sometimes
just assumed that we can take work home if needed). I just don't want anyone to
get the impression that all in-house folks are living lives of wealth and
luxury! :)
Erika Millen
emillen@sams.mcp.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:24:24 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sharon Wright <SHARONW@MICHIE.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply
If anyone has that impression, I would be happy to
disavow them of that notion! Although if most
publishing companies are like this one, we don't have
to worry too much about the clothing/dry cleaning
expenses, since our dress code is, essentially, "Wear
clothes." :-)
>>> Erika Millen <emillen@SAMS.MCP.COM>
09/12/97 02:08pm >>>
Just to be fair, there are also expenses for in-house
staff that freelancers may not have to deal with:
commuting expenses (gas, auto costs, and time lost
during the commute), child care, business clothing
and dry cleaning. A lot of in-house people also keep up
home offices at their own expense (it's sometimes
just assumed that we can take work home if needed).
I just don't want anyone to get the impression that all
in-house folks are living lives of wealth and luxury! :)
Erika Millen emillen@sams.mcp.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:03:46 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
In a message dated 97-09-12 13:56:51 EDT, you write:
<< Just to be fair, there are also expenses for in-house staff that
freelancers may
not have to deal with: commuting expenses (gas, auto costs, and time lost
during the commute), child care, business clothing and dry cleaning. >>
You must not be following the comic strip "Cathy.":D Actually, my clothing
and dry cleaning bills are about the only things that I don't worry about. I
still have to pay for child care. I couldn't work consistently without my kid
away. He does not sit quietly beside my desk or anywhere else, and he never
has. It's true I don't have to commute, but I do have to take time out to go
to the office supply store, the FEDEX box, the post office, etc. My supplies
are not usually delivered, and if they are, I pay extra on top of the cost of
the supplies. I've worked in publishing both in-house and as a freelancer. My
expenses are far far higher as a freelancer. I had a home office then, but my
needs are far greater as a freelancer. It's true that I have health insurance
benefits through my husbands employer, and that is a relief. But, I have to
provide disability insurance, life insurance, retirement plans, sick time,
vacation time, fallen-through-contract time, etc. In addition, if I don't
have enough of a cushion for the month, and payment is late, I have to
paylate fees if I have to pay some bills late. That has happened, and no
publisher has been willing to offset that. And I do need professional
clothing for face-to-face contact with my clients. I don't need as extensive
a wardrobe, but I do need some. Obviously, I have to charge more per hour to
offset these costs. Yes, working in any capacity does cost money as well as
earn it, but as freelancers we need to charge to cover costs that one does
not even think about as an employee. Otherwise it wouldn't be financially
worth while. Just read "Cathy" to see how she handles it.
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:25:37 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Peter Rooney <magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Question re Photos in book
You wrote:
>
>I have a question about indexing a coffee-table book (most of my
experience
>is with more content-oriented books).
>This book has full-page photos, the captions to which are in the form
of
>sidebars on facing text pages. Do I enter page numbers for both pages,
ie.
>the page with the caption sidebar and the facing photo itself, or just
one or
>the other?
>Anyone with experience or opinions on this?
>Thanks!
>
You need to ask the editor, stating the alternatives very clearly, and
ask for his/her preference, or house style.
However, in absence of any preference, my practice is this. Assume that
pictures are on odd (recto) pages, and their captions are on the even
facing pages.
1) devise a term that describes the photo, e.g.
Eiffel Tower (Paris)
2) reference the photo to the page where the photo actually appears.
(Do this even if the folio is suppressed on the page). Usually your
page reference is italicized. Sometimes, instead of a page number, a
figure number is used. Sometimes, both are used.
Eiffel Tower, 99 (italic)
or Eiffel Tower, fig. 9
or Eiffel Tower, 99 (italic); fig. 9
3) do not reference the photo to the page where the caption is located.
HOWEVER - sometimes the caption has substantive information about the
picture or about related topics. For example, a short biography of
Gustave Eiffel might be given in the caption. In this case, treat the
caption as text, and reference the page number where the caption is
located.
Eiffel, Gustave, 98
Let's say that the caption discusses the building of the Eiffel Tower,
public reactions to it, etc. In this case, both the caption page and
the illustration page might be referenced:
Eiffel Tower, 98, 99 (italic)
***
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:46:54 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Paul Buell <pbuell@HENSON.CC.WWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply
In-Reply-To: <9709121824.AA20975@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more
ass a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. If a
job takes 20 hours, that is that. On the other hand, if you run out of
work in the real job world they usually don't lay you off unless the
problem is chronic; you continue to get paid. The business about a dress
code requiring you to "wear clothes" reminds me of Microsoft. Saw same
strange dress when I was a contractor there. One of the things I like
about working at home is that I can wear my bathrobe, or nothing if it is
hot enough (not often in Seattle). I also like the lack of a long trip to
work. To work an 8 hour day on the east side of our large lake, in
Redmond, for example, requires a 2.5 hr trip, back and forth, although
Microsoft is only about 16 miles from where I live. When I decide whether
or not I want to take on onsite job I take into account the time spent
travelling, which I add to my work day when making comparisons. If the
sums are not right I continue to work at home. Paul D. Buell
PS: Note the new return address for me above. Not having worked for UW
for a while I am reverting to my Western Washington University email
which is at least permanent. So anyone feels the urge to direct poison
email, direct it here (actually, I have never gotten any of that on this
list...).
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:29 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Erika Millen <emillen@SAMS.MCP.COM>
Subject: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
On 9/12/97, Paul Buell writes:
<< I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more
as a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. If a
job takes 20 hours, that is that. On the other hand, if you run out of
work in the real job world they usually don't lay you off unless the
problem is chronic; you continue to get paid. >>
Run out of work? Does that really happen?? <grin> I usually have 2-5 books in
progress at any given time.
I've seen some surveys that show average indexing charges per page (about $3-5
per page, I think?). Does anyone know if there's a survey of salaried staff?
I'd love to know if I'm earning above/at/below average, but it's hard to compare
a salary to per-page rates. I once calculated what I average per page, but it
was a little depressing to see the results.
Erika Millen
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:25:43 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Depressing , to see the results . . .(Friday grins)
That's why we have depressing lawyers and depressing accountants, to
look at the depressing news for us and break it to us. Of course, then
their bills later depress us even more. But this explains why they are
the way they are. God love 'em.
David
Erika Millen wrote:
> Run out of work? Does that really happen?? <grin> I usually have 2-5 books in
> progress at any given time.
> I've seen some surveys that show average indexing charges per page (about $3-5
> per page, I think?). Does anyone know if there's a survey of salaried staff?
> I'd love to know if I'm earning above/at/below average, but it's hard to
compare
> a salary to per-page rates. I once calculated what I average per page, but it
> was a little depressing to see the results.
>
> Erika Millen
>
> On 9/12/97, Paul Buell writes:
>
> << I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more
> as a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. If a
> job takes 20 hours, that is that. On the other hand, if you run out of
> work in the real job world they usually don't lay you off unless the
> problem is chronic; you continue to get paid. >>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:29:31 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lindsay Gower <lindsay@PERSISTENCE.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
At 03:28 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Erika wrote:
>Run out of work? Does that really happen?? <grin> I usually have 2-5 books in
>progress at any given time.
Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business.
How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly
bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely
from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you
indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm
trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other
than busy-ness.
-- LG
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com
Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606
Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432
1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com
San Mateo, CA USA 94402 |
----------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:01:40 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply
In a message dated 97-09-12 14:24:58 EDT, you write:
<< I just don't want anyone to get the impression that all
in-house folks are living lives of wealth and luxury! :) >>
I forgot, since I've worked in-house, I know that in-house folks are not
living the lives of wealth and luxury! I've been in that state of poverty
myself!:D
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:24:13 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
Lindsay,
You wrote: << Are any of you earning a living solely from indexing (and is
that living above the subsistence level)? >>
Emphatically YES. Although I am married to a professional, and we are a
2-income family, my indexing business earns me a living that I consider to be
well into the "professional salary" range. I do not work solely to
"supplement" the primary wage earner's salary. My earnings stand on their
own 2 feet and could support me in the fashion to which I am accustomed.
;-)
So "busyness" can translate into a good living. I work darned hard. And
usually much more than a 40 hours week, but that is my choice. It is
rewarding.
Janet Perlman
Southwest Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:44:31 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Comments, please: Hyperindex
Greetings, I have Hyperindex and have worked with it on an experimental
basis. I feel it is quite dependable. It was reviewed in the May-Aug. issue
of Key Words.
Thelda Bertram
TBrtrm@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:42:46 LCL
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Victoria Baker <vbaker@PACIFIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs
In-Reply-To: <199709121339.GAA03370@pacific.net>
David inquires:
>Can we do an informal survey? Are Index-L folks out there having a lot
>of frustration with their ISPs, or really happy to recommend some of
>them? Of course only the biggies will cover small towns in remote areas
>like this one.
Actually, here in northern California, I had to give up a relative biggie
(Working Assets Online) because they had no local dial in; AOL wouldn't
work because they had no local dial in; and I'd have had to pay $6.00/hr.
for 800 access to either of them. I called other biggies and it was the
same thing. I had been told there was no local access but in fact there
was--a network that benefits the local schools. I did find another
statewide service that had a free 800 number but I decided to go with the
local. I've since moved and am now on another local provider.
I realize California is sometimes ahead of the curve on these matters but I
wouldn't assume there is no local service. Neither of my locals were in
the Yellow Pages yet, so they weren't easy to find.
And, I've been really happy with the local as opposed to gargantuan
service. When I left Working Assets Online they wouldn't forward my mail
to me, not even for a fee. My current provider is constantly upgrading
their connections. Also, when I call, it's like calling my local bank
instead of Bank of America or Wells Fargo, which are okay, but there's
nothing like actually recognizing the voice of the person who answers. For
me, anyway.
Of course, my local provider doesn't have the bells and whistles that AOL
has, and there are some real benefits to those.
Best,
Victoria
vbaker@pacific.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:51:37 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
In a message dated 97-09-12 17:40:23 EDT, you write:
<< So "busyness" can translate into a good living. I work darned hard. And
usually much more than a 40 hours week, but that is my choice. It is
rewarding. >>
Most of those in the "professional salary range" who work for corporate
America work much more than 40 hours a week also. They don't climb that
ladder very high without offering quite a few more hours to their employers,
so I think that Janet is climbing her own corporate ladder and doing very
well with her success without sacrificing more time than those who climb for
someone else.
I work only part time by choice, but if I were to translate my part time to
full time, I think I would be able to maintain a respectable standard of
living on my income.
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:02:12 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply
In-Reply-To: <199709121949.MAA21853@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
At 12:46 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Paul wrote:
>I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more
>ass a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done.
Now just what type of "freelancing" are we talking about? Sorry, I couldn't
resist!! ;-D
Lynn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:58:48 -0300
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Nancy Anderman Guenther <nanguent@CHESCO.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
I've been following this thread but have been too busy to respond. Yes,
absolutely it is possible to live on an indexer's income. As a single
parent of 3 children, I am able to care for my children & myself
comfortably. Like others my greatest struggle is guessing which books
will slip & leave me either overloaded or with a gap in my schedule.
My husband moved out 3 years ago making the statement "now you will have
to get a real job" but contacts have allow my business to continue to
grow so that I have been able to remain at home & be there when my
children need me. This is a priority since I have a first-grader, 9th
grader & 11th grader. The oldest has been fighting lyme disease for 4
years so I can't imagine having dealt with my responsibilities without
the flexibility of freelancing (the ability to work odd hours & carry
my work with me to doctor's offices, etc) .
I hate cold calls & don't do them. My contacts have been through ASI,
by recommendation from editors who have liked my work, & in early years
by sending letters. The last time I mailed out letters was 3 years ago
after my husband moved out. Of 20 letters sent based on info in Literary
Market Place, I received work from 4 or 5 different publishers. Not
sure why my success rate was so much higher than what has been quoted
here, but I do want to affirm to those just getting started -- it does
get easier.
As I write that -- I do have one answer for the response, but it isn't
one often discussed in business groups -- I consciously and
intentionally had placed my family's care in God's hands. I firmly
believe that He has cared for my family, provided me work and a career
which grows in such surprising ways.
Nancy Guenther
nanguent@chesco.com
Lindsay Gower wrote:
> At 03:28 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Erika wrote:
> >Run out of work? Does that really happen?? <grin> I usually have 2-5
> books in
> >progress at any given time.
>
> Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of
> business.
> How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your
> monthly
> bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living
> solely
> from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are
> you
> indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's
> salary? I'm
> trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms
> other
> than busy-ness.
>
> -- LG
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lindsay Gower | email:
> lindsay@persistence.com
> Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606
> Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432
> 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com
> San Mateo, CA USA 94402 |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:45:31 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply
In-Reply-To: <199709130041.RAA14718@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Oops. I once wanted to identify myself as an historian and posted, for
all to see that I was an analist whereas what I wanted to say was
Annalist. Ah well, it is Friday. Paul
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:27:25 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carolyn Weaver <CGWeaver@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume
In a message dated 97-09-12 07:02:19 EDT, you write:
I second most of Sonsie's comments, but beg to differ with the statement that
"authors will pay you a pittance." They'll pay whatever reasonable fee you
quote (unless they can find somebody to work for less). I have done quite a
few indexes for authors - including repeat business for one prolific author
who publishes a book about every three year. If the author were a personal
friend I might offer a discount; but in general, my minimum rates are the
same regardless of who's paying the bill.
You may have to educate the author as to the characteristics of a good index
(e.g., NOT indexing every cited author; NOT using 6 different terms for the
same concept); but authors are usually delighted to find out that a
professional indexer CAN give them the index to a 400 page book in two weeks
in a format that will keep their publisher happy, and that accommodates all
their pet likes and dislikes. I ALWAYS use a written contract when the
author is the client and make sure that I have an exact billing address; but
I've usually gotten paid within two weeks when the author was writing the
check, and almost as fast when the payment had to come thru a university
accounting department. And authors do recommend an indexer they've been
happy with to their colleagues.
Carolyn Weaver
Bellevue, WA.
<< Another suggestion is to work directly with an author, since authors
traditionally are responsible for indexing their own books. Frequently they
turn this duty over to the publisher, who then hires a professional indexer,
but many authors insist on doing it themselves (usually to save the money)
and end up with a real mess on their hands...or not enough time to complete
the work. If you live reasonably near a university campus, there are bound
to be professors who are writing books and getting them published...and in
need of indexing help. They will pay you a pittance, but you will end up
with a published index worthy of your resume. >>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:36:23 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Taxes
You wrote:
> I highly recommend hiring a Licensed Tax Preparer. I struggled through my
> first year of estimated taxes etc. on my own, then found my "tax guy."
He's a
> one-person business like me (I read an article once that said to hire an
tax
> person with the same size business as yours), and came recommended. I pay
him
> about $100 a year, and he does everything except write the checks (well,
I
> keep track of expenses and income and give him a list), including
answering
> questions like that one over the phone for free. The money is very well
worth
> it.
Thanks, Do Mi! Several other people have suggested that I hire a pro, as
well. I plan to investigate that next year. For this year, and based on
my current income vs. expenditures, plus my husband's withholding, the IRS
suggests that I don't need to do anything until 4/15/98, since our total
tax liability will be less than last year, and I will not hit the "penalty"
percentage. (Yes, the IRS actually did call me back -- and they were very
polite, helpful, and friendly. What a surprise!) But your suggestion and
information have been tucked away in my "gonna need this soon" file!
Thanks again!
Kara
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:27:33 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Marketing
Maria McNeal wrote:
> Anyway, what would you suggest? Some
> type of list to be appended to the bottom of a resume headed--what?
> Interests? Other job skills?
How about including a few interesting areas in your cover letter, rather
than on your resume? And tailor them to the specialty areas of the
company. For a publisher with a really broad subject range, try including
something about "a wide range of interests and experiences, from aaa to
zzz", and list two or three of the most interesting/unusual (as long as
they are something potentially useful.)
If you use a computer to print your resume, you can also play with
tailoring your resume in a similar manner: include those work experiences
which might look particularly useful or helpful to that publisher.
Mentioning (in your cover letter) titles you've liked which were published
by your target company could also help indicate your interests.
Kara M. Pekar
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:40:33 -0500
Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: david robert austen <davidaus@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: "Cheaper freelancers" or "You want me to do WHAT for $5.00?"
(Not a Clinton joke.)
Above, the title of an opinion piece I wrote about the jobs offered to
Master of Library Science students by the Indianapolis Chamber of
Commerce. What's worse, the university cooperates by agreeing to assist
this employer in hiring students at this rate, and by distributing such
ads free of charge on the internet, saving the employer the cost of
advertising.
What the student does is conduct research in university and public
libraries, and then catalog that data in a relational database. They pay
$5 an hour. The sole benefit offered: you don't have to pay for parking
at your place of employment.
At the same time, convenience stores here offer about $8.50 an hour and
benefits, with free Cokes and donuts, I s'pose. I delicious irony. You
could take me out and shoot me (behind the counter in that convenience
store) before I'd work for that kind of money inth 2 degrees, in 1997.
David
> At 12:46 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Paul wrote:
> >I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more
> >ass a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done.
>
> Now just what type of "freelancing" are we talking about? Sorry, I couldn't
> resist!! ;-D
>
> Lynn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:59:57 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carolyn Weaver <CGWeaver@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe,
but it doesn't need to be t
In a message dated 97-09-12 14:09:36 EDT, you write:
Paul is right, of course, assuming one gets over the $16,000 B&O tax
threshold, which I never have as a moonlighter. (Actually, I would love to
be grossing enought to have to be concerned about that!) My only quibble is
re the city taxes; those are local and vary by community. In Bellevue (which
is the yuppie haven across Lake Washington from Seattle, with the highest
real estate prices in the state -- which I couldn't afford if we were buying
today!) we're also exempt from city taxes if we're under the state B&O
threshold.
But given that it's possible to use the home office deduction and other
business expenses to write off a lot of one's federal taxable income, I would
still hold to a 40-50% differential in rate setting, particularly since a
home-based worker has much lower job-related expenses for commuting, lunches
out, business clothes, child care, etc. Earlier this year my wonderful (day
job) administrative assistant decided not to return to work at the end of her
maternity leave when she discovered that with a $32,000/yr job, she would net
hamburger-flipping wages after paying child care for two kids. It just
wasn't worth it to her.
Carolyn
<< Carolyn: forgot to mention, unless all on the list want to move out here,
that we have a relatively high B and O tax on services, 1.5 percent of
gross, at the state level although the first $16,000 or so of gross income
is exempt. There is a city tax on gross too (think it is now 20% of the
state tax) with a similar exemption, although everyone has to pay a
business licence fee of $75.00. There are also numerous irritation taxes,
including the use tax (sales tax on items purchased in other states upon
which no Washington sales tax has been paid) and, the worst of all, the
county property tax on things like computers with no depreciation so that
an old computer not worth squat that one paid $2,000 for 10 years ago is
still taxed at that (I have paid the equivalent of a third of the taxes I
pay on my house for my computers and books, etc.). When I throw in my
telephone, other home office expenses, medical, retirement, I usually need
to make, at my current level of volume, twice what I would as an employee
to make a profit. I think your 40% is way too low. Paul D. Buell >>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:05:03 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
In-Reply-To: <199709130409.VAA11025@mx2.u.washington.edu>
Carolyn: except that the home office deduction is worth very little if you
have a house purchased years ago since it is now based on the original,
purchase price, plus any improvements. The base value for tax purposes of
my house is perhaps 40% of the real value.
And yes, one can write off lots of other things too, but if you do you
have to list them for country property tax purposes and the country gets
you. And there is no way to depreciate anything.
I should mention that I work as a translator as well as indexer, a fact
which probably inflates my costs. I must have spent $1000 last year on
Japanese dictionaries alone (and didn't get that many dictionaries!).
Another cost of doing business that no one has mentioned are agencies and
possibly individuals who don't pay. I got caught in a bankruptcy last year
that cost me $800.00 (I am sure this money is gone), robbing me of about
10 percent of my profits for that year (I also worked onsite). This year I
have had a new experience, encountering for the first time a translation
agency that victimizes translators and never pays, or only when sued and
persistently so. I was only in for $212.00 but it could have been much
more. Someone wrote me about an agency in $50,000 to the same people and
another $25,000 and then $16,000. Urk, you can lose your shirt.
Did I mention business insurance too. Because I have lots of computer
equipment and occasionally tutor (requiring special coverage in my
household as well as business insurance) this can be expensive.
Another thing to bear in mind. If one is self-employed one is not covered
by unemployment insurance. Your work goes down to nothing and that is
where your are. The self-employed get no paid vacation or sick leave. If I
want to take off or even get sick I have to be able to compensate for
this. This means making more when I do work.
So, even if you are doing only indexing, I still think your 50% or so is
low, even less than a minimum.
Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:56:47 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs
In-Reply-To: <199709130419.XAA11597@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>> > . . . If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account,
>>can you
>> >deduct part or all of the monthly fees . . .
I'll be darned. I don't think I ever posted that! Clipped from somebody
else's and somehow mixed up with one of mine? Oh well.
Anyway, I looked for a local provider, because I already knew I didn't want
AOL or Compuserv. I pay around $21 a month for unlimited service, including
a Web page. My local outfit is called Mix Communications, hence the
"mixcom" in my address. I've been very happy with it.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:07:54 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Question re Photos in book
In-Reply-To: <199709130419.XAA11597@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>I have a question about indexing a coffee-table book (most of my experience
>is with more content-oriented books).
>This book has full-page photos, the captions to which are in the form of
>sidebars on facing text pages. Do I enter page numbers for both pages, ie.
>the page with the caption sidebar and the facing photo itself, or just one or
>the other?
>Anyone with experience or opinions on this?
>Thanks!
When this has come up for me, I've indexed one or the other. I first ask
the editor whether she or he has a preference. And I make sure to add a
headnote that explains what I've done.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:07:56 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Carol Roberts <Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
In-Reply-To: <199709130419.XAA11597@mixcom.mixcom.com>
>Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business.
>How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly
>bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely
>from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you
>indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm
>trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other
>than busy-ness.
>
>-- LG
Those are some pretty darn personal questions. So let me answer this way,
when I say "plenty of busness" I mean I'm working full-time. Very rarely do
I have gaps between assignments. And yes, I'm earning a living solely from
indexing.
Cheers,
Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:47:43 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe,
but it doesn't need to be t
A freelancer's income is to some degree an illusion.
Consider these two scenarios:
I work for a corporation, make $50,000 per year in salary. I commute 10k
miles per year. I work with computers, so I have one at home. I have it
set up in a spare bedroom. My income (leaving taxes out, for the moment)
is obvioulsy $50k per year.
Now I work for myself. I drive about 10k miles per year meeting clients,
going to the Office Max, attending ASI meetings, etc. I have the same
computer equipment in the same spare bedroom. Now, these things are
business expenses and deducted from my gross so that my income is
substantially less than $50k per year.
In both cases, I live exactly the same life with exactly the same amenities.
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:52:14 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
At 10:05 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Carolyn: except that the home office deduction is worth very little if you
>have a house purchased years ago since it is now based on the original,
>purchase price, plus any improvements. The base value for tax purposes of
>my house is perhaps 40% of the real value.
>
Depends on where you live. Here in NC, I have two options:
Calculate the total square footage of the house then calculate the
percentage dedicated to office space. Calculate all costs of owning the
house (mortgage, utilitites, etc) and deduct the percentage corresponding
to my office space.
Or, divide the number of rooms used for the office by the total number of
rooms. If I use one room out of seven, my deduction is 1/7th, regardless
of square footage.
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:55:53 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
At 01:07 AM 9/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business.
>>How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly
>>bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely
>>from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you
>>indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm
>>trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other
>>than busy-ness.
>>
Well, I retired from corporate life in '92 and in '96 exceeded what I had
been making when I retired. I have the same house I had when I retired,
trade cars every two years, and last year bought a $15k motorcycle.
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:48:31 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Chris Carr <CccJlc@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: business questions
Hi-
Yesterday I had my first experience with SCORE-not very helpful. I drove
about 3 hours round-trip, was supposed to have a 1-hour appointment. The man
talked to me for 10 minutes and had absolutely no specific information. Is
this typical? Please clarify a few things for me.
1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you legally
*have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it were
different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't understand.
And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or what?
2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID number
different than your social security number for this?
3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business accounts?
What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know business
bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything else
that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments?
4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to cover
computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance? Does the
fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things? Do some
of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it complicate
things with FedEx or UPS? Also, what about insurance comparable to
malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents of our
index? Can they sue if they can't find something?
:-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance?
5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do you do
it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months?
6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this?
7. For volunteering you indexing services: At what point did you feel
comfortable doing this? I am about halfway through USDA Basic Indexing and I
surely don't feel comfortable with this idea yet (unless I had a mentor).
8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid when
there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed? Some take
half a page, some take a third...
Thanks for your opinions. I know I need to talk to all these agents,
bankers, etc., but it helps to know what might be expected.
Chris Carr
cccjlc@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:14:19 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Prakash S. Capen" <prakash@MOONSTAR.COM>
Subject: Amused aside: interesting wording
Maybe I'd simply been too long at the computer, but I glanced through the
recent virus warning message just to see what names they'd come up with
this time. One phrase caught my eye and my imagination:
"AOL has said this is a very danderous virus. . ."
Hmm. A new computer term? A virus that sheds all over one's memory chips?
Okay. Enough musing. Back to work.
Prakash
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Prakash S. Capen
Editing and Indexing Services
prakash@moonstar.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:31:24 EDT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Suellen Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: business questions
What is SCORE? Suellen
On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:48:31 -0400 Chris Carr <CccJlc@AOL.COM> writes:
>Hi-
>
>Yesterday I had my first experience with SCORE-not very helpful. I
>drove
>about 3 hours round-trip, was supposed to have a 1-hour appointment.
>The man
>talked to me for 10 minutes and had absolutely no specific
>information. Is
>this typical? Please clarify a few things for me.
>
>1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you
>legally
>*have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it
>were
>different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't
>understand.
> And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or
>what?
>
>2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID
>number
>different than your social security number for this?
>
>3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business
>accounts?
> What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know
>business
>bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything
>else
>that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments?
>
>4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to
>cover
>computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance? Does
>the
>fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things?
>Do some
>of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it
>complicate
>things with FedEx or UPS? Also, what about insurance comparable to
>malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents
>of our
>index? Can they sue if they can't find something?
>:-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance?
>
>5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do
>you do
>it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months?
>
>6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this?
>
>7. For volunteering you indexing services: At what point did you feel
>comfortable doing this? I am about halfway through USDA Basic
>Indexing and I
>surely don't feel comfortable with this idea yet (unless I had a
>mentor).
>
>8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid
>when
>there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed?
>Some take
>half a page, some take a third...
>
>Thanks for your opinions. I know I need to talk to all these agents,
>bankers, etc., but it helps to know what might be expected.
>
>Chris Carr
>cccjlc@aol.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:47:59 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: SCORE
At 11:31 AM 9/13/97 EDT, Suellen Kasoff wrote:
>What is SCORE? Suellen
Service Corps of Retired Executives, who act as unpaid consultants for those
who wish to start small businesses. There are many handouts and other
materials available as well from SCORE.
*****************************************
Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer
cbertel@usit.net
Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html
*****************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:20:07 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe,
but it doesn't need to be t
In-Reply-To: <199709131149.EAA16586@mx4.u.washington.edu>
Dick: I am afriad it is not that simple. What about the benefits you get
from your $50,000 a year job, pretty substantial one. My bet is that the
actual value of your $50,000 a year salary is more like $70,000+. You are
not comparing likes to likes. And no one has yet mentioned that the
self-employed pay double the social security tax and you cannot write off
everything. As I noted before, you home office deduction is very, very
limited unless you just bought you house. Health insurance is only
partially an expense and putting money away for the equivalent of an
enemployment fun is not deductable either. I should conclude that those
that think living entirely off of self-employment is nothing more than a
spare bedroom and a computer have a rude shock coming. You need much more.
How about those on the list making a full-time income from indexing. What
percentage of their gross do the think should be expenses, if that is not
too personal a question. Paul D. Buell
On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Richard Evans wrote:
> A freelancer's income is to some degree an illusion.
>
> Consider these two scenarios:
>
> I work for a corporation, make $50,000 per year in salary. I commute 10k
> miles per year. I work with computers, so I have one at home. I have it
> set up in a spare bedroom. My income (leaving taxes out, for the moment)
> is obvioulsy $50k per year.
>
> Now I work for myself. I drive about 10k miles per year meeting clients,
> going to the Office Max, attending ASI meetings, etc. I have the same
> computer equipment in the same spare bedroom. Now, these things are
> business expenses and deducted from my gross so that my income is
> substantially less than $50k per year.
>
> In both cases, I live exactly the same life with exactly the same amenities.
>
> Dick
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:24:03 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
In-Reply-To: <199709131153.EAA20310@mx5.u.washington.edu>
But your mortage payments are not the basis of the deduction but the
purchase price of the house. My point is that since I purchased my house
some years ago at a price that is a third of the current market that
strictly limits what I can deduct. My deduction is absolutely peanuts
compared to what office space goes for around here and if one is not
careful you get audited. The home office deduction is not what it used to
be. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:24:11 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: business questions
In-Reply-To: <199709131349.GAA05870@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
At 09:48 AM 9/13/97 -0400, Chris wrote:
>Hi-
>
>Yesterday I had my first experience with SCORE-not very helpful. I drove
>about 3 hours round-trip, was supposed to have a 1-hour appointment. The man
>talked to me for 10 minutes and had absolutely no specific information. Is
>this typical? Please clarify a few things for me.
Hi Chris,
Oh what a bummer! I attended a daylong SCORE workshop when starting my
business that was excellent. They had a wide range of speakers who spoke
about many aspects of running a business. Plus, it was a good opportunity
to network. I also strongly recommend attending a workshop on networking
held by one of the networking gurus floating around the country. It's worth
its weight in gold. If you can't attend any business workshops (it sounds
like you're out in the boonies), there are a wide range of books about
starting businesses, marketing, networking, etc. Books on consulting are
also somewhat relevant to what we do. Bookstar has tons of books on
business (I must have bought half of them), but if there's no good
bookstore near you, there's always Amazon.com on the Web (a great source of
books). Of course, please continue posting your questions to the list. ;-D
>
>1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you legally
>*have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it were
>different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't understand.
> And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or what?
Some areas, like my county, require that you get a Fictious Name (or a DBA
"doing business as") certificate if your business name is in any way
different from your own name. The major things I found personally helpful
about it were that a) I was able to determine that no one else in my county
(or the state of California) had the same business name; and 2) banks
require a DBA for opening a business account. As you can see, all
institutions seem to work with each other to ensure that you jump through
the required hoops. <groan>
>
>2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID number
>different than your social security number for this?
From what I've read here on the list, the sales tax requirement seems to
vary with ones location. Many places don't require it for services such as
indexing. I'm not sure what credit card company requirements are for being
able to accept them. I haven't needed to offer this. AFAIK, you can use
your SSN as a tax ID number unless you have employees.
>
>3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business accounts?
> What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know business
>bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything else
>that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments?
While a personal bank account may be sufficient to handle a small business
like indexing, the main purpose behind getting a business account is to
avoid mixing personal and business funds. This is for tax and accounting
purposes. Shop around for your bank! Mine only charges $5/mo, unlimited
checking, no minimum balance for my business account. I don't know about
your local phone company, but mine (Pac Bell), not only knows that small
businesses use residential phone numbers, but supports it. The only real
reason for getting a business phone number is that you get an entry in the
Yellow Pages and, from what I've heard from other indexers, it wasn't worth
the expense. With phone company voice mail, your business image over the
phone shimmers quite nicely with a residential line. (Another potential
phone company "bennie", possibly coming soon to your area, is that they are
also becoming ISPs. Your Internet charges go on your phone bill instead of
your credit cards where they can incur finance charges. Plus you're far
more likely to get online on the first try since telecommunications *is*
their business. Just to touch on another thread here.)
>
>4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to cover
>computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance?
When I called around about business liability insurance when starting my
business, I kept hearing that you have to be in business for at least a
year before a carrier will accept you. I hope I don't have this confused
with "business interruption" insurance, because I was checking on that too
at the time. The general consensus I've heard from other indexers that
liability insurance is not necessary.
>Does the
>fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things? Do some
>of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it complicate
>things with FedEx or UPS?
You may want to check with your homeowner's insurance about liability
issues. I take Fedex/UPS deliveries at my Mailboxes, Etc. address. Beats
waiting around at home or having the package left with your neighbors
(especially by UPS). Another benefit of having your business address at one
of the mailbox places is that you're not handing out your home address to
the entire world on your business cards. Plus, it's a street address,
whereas PO boxes *can* have fly-by-night connotations for small businesses
and don't accept Fedex deliveries. Also, if you move your home business
(close enough where you don't have to change your phone number), there
aren't any printing costs associated with new stationery. (YMMV, given all
the area code and zip code splits these days.) My MBE box is worth every
penny. (No, I don't work for them, though my daughter did. ;-D) Express
couriers, who I receive quite a few deliveries from when dealing with
Southern California clients, come directly to my door.
>Also, what about insurance comparable to
>malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents of our
>index? Can they sue if they can't find something?
>:-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance?
See above about business liability. Auto insurance rates shouldn't be
affected by driving to UPS, etc. unless you're way out in the boonies and
do it very often. To save wear and tear on myself vs. my car (being only a
block or two away from both UPS and Fedex dropoffs), I deliver most of my
indexes electronically. That means I can also send off indexes at 3am and
it gives you Sunday when the index is due Monday. Clients like that, too,
as it saves them shipping and time. Always remember to offer that as a
service when you get a new client. Email attachments and FTP both work.
(Download CuteFTP shareware off the Web. It's a great FTP client.)
>
>5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do you do
>it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months?
When I did my major marketing blitz when first starting my business, I
didn't make followup calls though I did get a client from it because I have
a relatively obscure expertise--military electronics. All the rest of my
business has come through referrals.
>
>6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this?
No. ASI has a good sample contract.
>
>7. For volunteering you indexing services: At what point did you feel
>comfortable doing this? I am about halfway through USDA Basic Indexing and I
>surely don't feel comfortable with this idea yet (unless I had a mentor).
I didn't do that myself, though I did index a poorly-indexed obscure
electronics manual when I was about two-thirds of the way through the USDA
course. It worked and got me a client the very first (and only) time I sent
it out. (The client called me via a referral from a local chapter member
and asked me to send them a sample index, so it wasn't part of the
marketing blitz.) If you don't have a mentor, you can ask an experienced
indexer to review it if you offer a reasonable rate or if you're on very
friendly terms with one. Bartering services/goods, a time-honored
tradition, can also work. If you're short on cash (who isn't when going
through the huge expense of starting a business) and on friendships with
indexing colleagues, you may want to consider what you could offer along
those lines. You'd be surprised with what you come up with. :-D
>
>8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid when
>there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed? Some take
>half a page, some take a third...
My own rule of thumb is that if I have to consider a page, regardless of
whether it actually generates entries, it's indexable. Pages that are
partly taken up by nonindexable illustrations containing any text other
than the caption are indeed indexable at the full page rate. This not in
any way gouging clients because there are likely to be other pages that
generate a huge amount of entries. However, I discounted an invoice by
hundreds of dollars when I found that a book contained many huge tables
that were captured by large page ranges where the row/column data wasn't
amenable to indexing (without going ridiculously overboard). If the book is
mostly illustrations and light on text, you should reflect this in a lower
page rate. Client goodwill resulting from your fairness is of immeasurable
value though it may sting at the time to do this. ;-D
Good luck to you and keep asking questions! You're doing the right thing by
gathering as much info as you can because starting a business is an awesome
undertaking.
Gotta run. The all-time Godzilla *ever* of all crickets is crawling up my
wall right now and I gotta make sure it doesn't go somewhere I don't want
it to, like up my leg. Eeeeeeek! It just hopped
somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(techndex@pacbell.net)
TECHindex & Docs
Technical and Scientific Indexing
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:37:27 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Roberta Horowitz <RHorowitz@ACM.ORG>
Subject: Small Business Questions
Home Office Computing has a web site http://www.smalloffice.com that has
a great deal of information about running a home based business.
They also have 2 live text chats on AOL
Editor's chats Wednesday at 3:00 pm ET, one of the editors will be online to
answer questoins abut hardware, software small-businness issues.
Keyword HOC
Business Dinner Wednesday at 8:00 pm ET
Each week is a chat on a topic relting to small business with an expert in a
given field. Keyword soho
I don't use AOL so I don't know about the chat's but the web site is pretty
good.
Roberta Horowitz
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:11 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
At 01:29 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Lindsay Gower wrote:
>Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business.
>How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly
>bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely
>from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you
>indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm
>trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other
>than busy-ness.
I esimtate that my indexing work totals about 3/4 of a regular workweek most
of the time...weeks where I might have to spend 50-60 hours at my desk,
offset by weeks where I have no current projects. If necessary, I could
support myself solely on indexing, but it would be a mighty low-key
lifestyle. If I were not simultaneously trying to get another business off
the ground and also working at my third job (advertising and graphic
design), I'd be indexing a lot more...and thus would have a much better
income from it.
My husband also works at home, in his own business, so we are both in a
situation where there are no "givens" in terms of wages or salary or
insurance or any of the rest. It's difficult enough to make it these days
when you have one steady wage-earner and a partner who is a freelancer...try
imagining life when BOTH of you are, essentially, out there without a safety
net!
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:13 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume
At 10:27 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Carolyn Weaver wrote:
>I second most of Sonsie's comments, but beg to differ with the statement that
>
>"authors will pay you a pittance." They'll pay whatever reasonable fee you
>quote (unless they can find somebody to work for less). I have done quite a
>few indexes for authors - including repeat business for one prolific author
>who publishes a book about every three year. If the author were a personal
>friend I might offer a discount; but in general, my minimum rates are the
>same regardless of who's paying the bill.
Carolyn, perhaps I was guilty of overgeneralization, but in my experience
authors do their own indexes because they have to--and because they don't
want to pay the publisher to hire a professional. Not every author is a
penny-pincher, but many are. I agree completely with the rest of your
comments about getting a signed contract and so forth. Because you're
dealing with an individual and not an organization, if something goes wrong
you have somewhat less chance to eventually receive payment. Covering these
contingencies is important.
I've done a fair amount of work directly for authors and have had generally
good experiences...except that overall they pay much less than I can get
from a publisher or packager. I'm glad your experience has been better! :-)
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:15 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
At 10:05 PM 9/12/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote:
>Carolyn: except that the home office deduction is worth very little if you
>have a house purchased years ago since it is now based on the original,
>purchase price, plus any improvements. The base value for tax purposes of
>my house is perhaps 40% of the real value.
Paul, I think you may be confusing the depreciation part of the HOD (home
office deduction) with the rest of it. From reviewing my Form 8829 (home
office deduction for the IRS), I see that my housing expenses (including
mortgage, real estate taxes, repairs, maintenance, utilities, and so forth)
are set out in full and that I can take that percentage of them that is
equal to the percentage of my home that my office occupies (in my case,
17%). I can also take depreciation on the portion of my home that is used
for income-producing purposes...and THIS figure is, indeed, based in part on
the original price of the property plus improvements.
The value of my HOD last year was almost $5000-- definitely worth bothering
with! The depreciation portion of that was $737. I expect to be talking with
my tax preparer (who is also a personal friend) in the next day or two, and
I'll ask him if I'm interpreting this correctly.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:17 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: business questions
At 09:48 AM 9/13/97 -0400, Chris Carr wrote:
>1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you legally
>*have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it were
>different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't understand.
> And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or what?
If you're talking about a DBA (Doing Business As) type registration, most
localities require this...not so much to protect YOU as to protect your
customers. If you;re doing business as ABC Indexing, your customers are
entitled to know just who they are really dealing with. The fictitious name
statement or DBA is usually filed through your city or county clerk. In my
area, it costsabout $15, plus another $30 to have it published in the legal
column of the local paper. Yes, you have to do this anywhere I know of.
If you want to register your business name so that nobody else can use it,
that's a whole other issue and too complex to go into right now. Most people
in our situation don't bother.
>2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID number
>different than your social security number for this?
In CA, sales tax is not collected on professional services, which I offer as
an indexer. No, I don't collect sales tax. I also don't accept credit cards;
in all the years I've been in business, I've never once been asked to take
them. I use my SS number as my tax ID number, which is quite proper. You
don't need a separate tax ID number for most purposes.
>3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business accounts?
> What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know business
>bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything else
>that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments?
If you want a bank account in your business name, you must provide a copy of
your DBA. These accounts may or may not cost more. Mine is free, as is my
personal checking account. The bank was offering a deal, and I took them up
on it. All you really need is a separate account...and this is for
convenience and in case you ever have to show the IRS proof of business
expenses. A fair number of people don't even bother with a separate account,
but IMO they are taking a calculated risk. It makes bookkeeping a lot easier
if you have one.
A business telephone allows you to have a listing in your area yellow
pages...not especially helpful for businesses such as ours. It's probably
not essential, unless your local phone company insists on it and will give
you a hard time if they discover otherwise.
>4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to cover
>computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance? Does the
>fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things? Do some
>of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it complicate
>things with FedEx or UPS? Also, what about insurance comparable to
>malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents of our
>index? Can they sue if they can't find something?
>:-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance?
I don't think many of us carry business errors and omissions insurance,
though some may. Having an umbrella liability policy is inexpensive
insurance against disaster...not only the UPS guy slipping and falling on
your front steps, but a client doing the same. Having a delivery person drop
by occasionally should not "change things" in terms of cost of insurance,
nor should visiting the UPS office in person make your car insurance cost
more. Why should it? We do this anyway, even if we're not in business. You
should absolutely check with your insurance agent and explain your business
and personal situations to him or her and get professional advice, of
course. I'm speaking only from my own experience.
Yes, I'd say that we're responsible for the contents of our indexes, but in
almost no conceivable circumstance would it cost us more than what we were
paid to do it if we made some egregious error. That's why most of us don't
carry E&O insurance. And most of us also would cheerfully correct any
mistakes of ours that were found before publication...so that's also a moot
point.
>5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do you do
>it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months?
It depends on how eager I am to work for the specific company, and also on
what happend the first time I called. If I was told my name was being put on
file, I'd continue to call occasionally to refresh their memory. OTOH, if
they don't use freelancers, or use them very rarely, I wouldn't bother to
call back.
>6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this?
I haven't specifically consulted a lawyer, but I've had years of experience
with contracts and have read enough do-it-yourself books (especially from
Nolo Press, whom I highly recommend) that I feel confident about my skills
in this area. I've rarely been "taken," and when I have, I've also been able
to sue--and collect.
>8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid when
>there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed? Some take
>half a page, some take a third...
If the problem is this complex (lots of photographs, partial pages of text,
and so on), I develop a final page count WITH the production editor. I've
never had a problem doing this; we are both satisfied that it's fair. I've
also had instances where there's been a disagreement over a per-hour fee,
when the editor has felt I should be able to index more pages per hour than
I've based my bid on. When this happens, I frequently offer to do a sample
and show how many entries per page are required and how long the sample
took. This helps.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:08:03 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Emily Adelsohn <Emadelsohn@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beginners - USDA indexing course
Linda: May I ask how long it took for you to receive your USDA materials
after you registered? I have not even received a confirmation after 1 month,
even though I e-mailed asking for confirmation. (You can answer me
personally.)
Emily Adelsohn
Pasadena, CA
Emadelsohn@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:05:56 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
At 09:24 AM 9/13/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote:
>But your mortage payments are not the basis of the deduction but the
>purchase price of the house. My point is that since I purchased my house
>some years ago at a price that is a third of the current market that
>strictly limits what I can deduct. My deduction is absolutely peanuts
>compared to what office space goes for around here and if one is not
>careful you get audited. The home office deduction is not what it used to
>be.
Paul, see my earlier post about how the HOD is figured...I think you've got
it wrong. My HOD is worth about $5000 to me. In my area, I can rent an
office the size of mine for about $1 a square foot, which would cost me
about $3000 a year, so the HOD actually generates a cash benefit in my case.
If I took more expensive digs or had a larger space, of course that
difference would disappear.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:08:33 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Emily Adelsohn <Emadelsohn@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs
I am reasonably content with using AOL for e-mails only (at their rock-bottom
rate of $4.95/mo.) and a local service provider called Earthlink for
"surfing." I can work around AOL's access problems that way; there's no
delay in getting on-line to download e-mails first thing in the morning, and
then I have all day to read and respond off-line for transmission the next
morning.
Emily Adelsohn
Pasadena, CA
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:32:24 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
In-Reply-To: <199709131802.LAA24784@mx3.u.washington.edu>
Sonsie: your housing expenses must be much more than mine, your original
housing price much greater and your office huge (mine is barely 15 percent
of all our 'usable" space). If I can write off $1200 a year, it is a good
year. Also note that if you write off a percentage of real estate taxes,
mortage interest (not the mortage payment) etc. as a home office deduction
you have to subtract this from the amount you use for the regular
deduction. If you do not take the standard deduction and have more
deductions including mortage interest and real estate taxes, etc., you are
simply shifting the deductions to the business side. The only benefit of
this is reducing your self-employment tax. On the other hand, if you are
paying at the 28% rate there may be a benefit in not shifting things to
the home office. And how much are utilties in your area? They are probably
more. Around here we have cheap electrical power except for heating and
cheap natural gas. Utilities for the whole house usually average only
about $140.00 a month. I should mention that I do not include telephone
(about $800 a year, more in the past) as a home office expensive, but list
it separately. Maybe that is another reason for the different. Then there
are capital gains taxes, possibly payable on the part of the home you used
for business if you sell the house. In short, your HOD seems astronomical
although not unlike the amount I used before the law was changed and I
based my HOD on what comparable office space would cost me in the real
world. Paul D. buell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:59:25 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe,but it doesn't need to be t
Someone wrote:
>particularly since a home-based worker has much lower
>job-related expenses for commuting, lunches out,
>business clothes, child care, etc.
I've only recently started indexing, but this statement made me do a
double-take. Granted, I don't have any expenses for lunches out -- but I
bagged it when I was working for someone else, so lunch expenses are about
the same. Business clothes -- I was a teacher and dressed in "nice
casual", so the clothes I wear now are about the same, in style and price,
as when I worked outside my home. Commuting and daycare? I still
"commute", in that I take my daughter to daycare and to preschool, and pick
her up; if she wasn't in daycare, I wouldn't have much free time to index
or market my services. So frankly, my job-related expenses haven't changed
much. I'm wondering if this is true for other people, too?
Kara Pekar
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:09:00 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Sonsie <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
At 12:32 PM 9/13/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote:
>Sonsie: your housing expenses must be much more than mine, your original
>housing price much greater and your office huge (mine is barely 15 percent
>of all our 'usable" space). If I can write off $1200 a year, it is a good
>year.
Paul, my office constitutes about 17% of our 2600-s.f. house, so it's not
huge by any means. I'm sure the original cost of my house is high compared
to yours, as we live in one of the most expensive areas in the country
(Central CA). But the depreciation (based on that price) amounts to only 15%
of my total HOD.
>Also note that if you write off a percentage of real estate taxes,
>mortage interest (not the mortage payment) etc. as a home office deduction
>you have to subtract this from the amount you use for the regular
>deduction. If you do not take the standard deduction and have more
>deductions including mortage interest and real estate taxes, etc., you are
>simply shifting the deductions to the business side. The only benefit of
>this is reducing your self-employment tax.
Yep, that's what we're doing...shifting costs from column A to column B, to
reduce our SE tax. Since we are both self-employed, this pays off big-time
for us. There have been several years in the recent past when the bulk of
our federal tax was SE tax, so this makes sense to do.
On the other hand, if you are
>paying at the 28% rate there may be a benefit in not shifting things to
>the home office.
We still have plenty of Schedule A deductions (high medical expenses, lots
of leftover home mortgage interest, etc.)
>And how much are utilties in your area? They are probably
>more. Around here we have cheap electrical power except for heating and
>cheap natural gas. Utilities for the whole house usually average only
>about $140.00 a month. I should mention that I do not include telephone
>(about $800 a year, more in the past) as a home office expensive, but list
>it separately. Maybe that is another reason for the different.
I have a business line to my office, and a separate line for my modem, both
of which are deducted on my Schedule C. Our utilities (not counting the
telephones and nondeductible stuff like cable TV) average about $250 a
month, which I'm sure makes a difference. And we've had some rather high
maintenance and repair expenditures, which also adds to the value of our
HOD. And remember, both my husband and I are taking the HOD, which pushes
the total value even higher. He deducted about $2500 on his Schedule C for
1996, while I took close to $5000 (he's got a smaller office).
>Then there
>are capital gains taxes, possibly payable on the part of the home you used
>for business if you sell the house. In short, your HOD seems astronomical
>although not unlike the amount I used before the law was changed and I
>based my HOD on what comparable office space would cost me in the real
>world.
We'll be able to deal with the recapture provisions pretty well, I think. My
husband expects to move his office out of the house next year, and since
we're in a position to carefully time the eventual sale of this house, I can
choose not to take the HOD for a long enough time to obviate any recapture.
In short, I think it depends mightily on the individual situation, but the
deduction is not specifically tied to the original price of the house plus
improvements. That seems to apply only to the depreciation portion of the
HOD. The rest depends on your expenses.
=Sonsie=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:48:09 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Joel S. Berson" <J.Berson@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs
I am pretty happy using ATT's WorldNet service, which is country-wide
and has two local phone numbers in my area (Cambridge, MA). I pay
$19.95 per month for unlimited time, and very seldom encounter a busy
signal. I pay an additional $9.95 per month for access via WorldNet to
AOL, and again seldom encounter a busy signal. WorldNet offers personal
Web pages, at a very reasonable charge (I don't recall at the moment,
but I think about $5 per month.)
One should be able to deduct a fee for a business web page without
question; and also whatever percentage of ISP charges are time used for
business - and for investment tracking as well.
Carol Roberts wrote:
>
> >> > . . . If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account,
> >>can you
> >> >deduct part or all of the monthly fees . . .
>
> I'll be darned. I don't think I ever posted that! Clipped from somebody
> else's and somehow mixed up with one of mine? Oh well.
>
> Anyway, I looked for a local provider, because I already knew I didn't want
> AOL or Compuserv. I pay around $21 a month for unlimited service, including
> a Web page. My local outfit is called Mix Communications, hence the
> "mixcom" in my address. I've been very happy with it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My
> Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
> Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer
> http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:42:51 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business.
In-Reply-To: <199709132113.OAA16368@mx2.u.washington.edu>
Sonsie: sounds like you are on top of it. My house, by way of comparison,
cost only $75,000 when we bought it and we have added only about $15,000
in value since then (16 years). So the depreciation amount is very small
for us. It is about 2500 sq ft too. Our refinanced mortage, the old unpaid
balance plus a new roof, is at a relatively favorable rate too and
insurance is low too since we don't have to worry about canyon fires or
canyon floods (if a flood reaches our house, 350 ft+, it's goodbye
Seattle). The only thing we probably pay more of than you do is property
taxes, almost $2,000 a year now. Sounds like I need to move to Bellevue
and buy a bigger house. I knew those $300,000+ houses over there had some
advantage!
Hope all of this provides fodder for those dealing with the HOD. It can be
a worthwhile thing. As for myself, I lost much when they changed the
tax law and bought a house. I was better off renting. Paul
PS: I assume that everyone knows that to take a HOD you must show a profit
and at least enough to equal the HOD.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:09:24 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709131802.LAA06362@mail-gw3.pacbell.net>
I just have to vent (and take a needed break). I'm working on an index for
a very strange style guide that's driving me up the wall. I'm
subcontracting to a packager on this, so there's no hope of reaching anyone
responsible for the style guide.
First of all, they don't allow *any* prepositions or conjunctions at all in
subentries. Now, I can live without leading and ending preps, but sometimes
you absolutely need one in the middle if the subentry is to make sense.
I've wrestled through a few indexes with this style guide, but this one is
extremely difficult because many concepts imply direction if they are to be
understood. For example:
copying files
disk to tape
tape to disk
So, to avoid using prepositions I'm creating entries, as:
copying files
disk-tape
tape-disk
This looks downright weird and I doubt if anyone other than me will
understand them. Some look even worse. I did resist the temptation to do
"disk-->tape" types of constructions. ;-D Other subentries, not implying
directionality, sometimes become downright inscrutable. Because
conjunctions are totally forbidden, I've been forced to use a slash instead
of the word "and" in some instances where a subentry refers to two things.
The alternative is to make two separate subentries with the same page
number to grasp both concepts which would make this already huge index even
larger. An example:
...(equipment name)
powering on and booting
became
...(equipment name)
powering on/booting
The above example isn't too bad, but I've ended with several subentry lists
where more than one subentry is like that. To make this even more
interesting, I'm limited to three words maximum per subentry, which also
causes a lot of slashing or other oddities. Some concepts come as paired
words that are totally inscrutable or very misleading if one word is
omitted. Well, if the other part of the concept is also a pair of words,
I've gone over the limit. Enter stage left the otherwise unnecessary
subsubentry.
Secondly, the style guide requires that all See also refs be in reciprocal
pairs. This wrecks a lot of havoc with the structure of the index. To avoid
cross-referencing something to a higher-level concept, I'm forced to either
generate tons of subsubentries by double-posting or not create the cross
reference at all. This also rules out general cross references, which would
be absurd pointing back to the higher level concept from each target,
leading to a ridiculous amount of classification.
Fourth, the client loves classification (any wonder why?). So, I have
column after column of subentries that simply shouldn't be classified in
the real world. Plus, the client loves a main entry "procedures", insisting
that users love that main heading. Would anyone here look for "procedures"
as a main heading in an operations manual where everything is a procedure
of one sort or another?
Fifth, with all of these restrictions and anomalies, I'm constantly
restructuring the blasted thing trying to make it work. So, this book,
which would otherwise be a no-brainer, is a tedious, frustrating nightmare.
Lastly, I was explicitly told that they don't want user-friendly indexes,
that the user can look up the reference if they don't understand it in the
index. False drops here we come. Hmmmm. The only absolutely weird thing
I've been able to talk them out of is their use of adjectives as main
headings!!!! (The packager felt we could sneak that in.) Of course the
turnaround time is way too short. Of course the pages are printed on both
sides making a lot of messing around with the proofs, looking at the wrong
page, etc. Why do I keep doing this to myself? They pay well and within a
week of being invoiced.
Well, back to the grind. BTW, when the "able to leap tall buildings"
cricket hopped onto hubby's desk (thankfully not mine) with an audible
thud, it immediately disappeared somewhere. So, I'm indexing in a constant
state of glancing around the room wondering "Where is that monster?" With
three desks, two bookcases, a credenza and tons of other stuff in here, it
could suddenly pounce from anywhere <gasp>. (No, it hasn't chirped once to
give away its location.)
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(techndex@pacbell.net)
TECHindex & Docs
Technical and Scientific Indexing
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:46:08 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709132313.QAA16216@mx5.u.washington.edu>
Lynn: first of all, don't reenlist. One suggestion tape to disk, why not
use the > sign indicating directed output, >, i.e.,
copying
tape > disk
disk > tape
The problem with using -> is its association with structures., but > or >>
are perfectly good output signs. One is Unix, the other Unix and C++.
Procedure is a can of worms. Yes, everything is a procedure, I suppose,
but procedure is also a computer buzz word for certain languages, where
functions are call procedures. Is this the problem.
As for the rest, what a nightmare. Too late to quit? And I thought I
had worked for some strange people. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:14:12 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Stephanie Olivo <SBO12441@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: query sheet & software
Carolyn,
Thanks so much for your reply. My intent has been to 'get by' for my first
index and then with what I make buy a software program. Someone recommended
that I get a demo copy of Cindex while I'm waiting for my first job and then
after I've played around with it and when I get my first job, turn around and
order it posthaste. That's what I'm doing.
Thanks again.
Stephanie
SBO12441
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:29:55 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Michael Brackney <brackney@NCCN.NET>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
At 04:09 PM 9/13/97 -0700, Lynn wrote:
>I just have to vent (and take a needed break). I'm working on an index for
>a very strange style guide that's driving me up the wall. . . .
>
>First of all, they don't allow *any* prepositions or conjunctions at all in
>subentries. Now, I can live without leading and ending preps, but sometimes
>you absolutely need one in the middle if the subentry is to make sense.
>I've wrestled through a few indexes with this style guide, but this one is
>extremely difficult because many concepts imply direction if they are to be
>understood. For example:
>
>copying files
> disk to tape
> tape to disk
>
>So, to avoid using prepositions I'm creating entries, as:
>
>copying files
> disk-tape
> tape-disk
>
>This looks downright weird and I doubt if anyone other than me will
>understand them. . . .
This and just about everything else you mention about your project sounds
absurd indeed, but since you're still wrestling with it (for good and quick
pay) here's a suggestion that might help out a tiny bit: how 'bout turning
those hyphens into dashes as a way of communicating the sense of "to" a
little more clearly?
"Sheeesh", as you would say. ;-)
Rotsaruck.
Michael
Brackney Indexing Service
134 Kathleen Way
Grass Valley, CA 95945
916-272-7088
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:06:15 LCL
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Victoria Baker <vbaker@PACIFIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume
In-Reply-To: <199709131802.LAA00969@pacific.net>
Carolyn wrote:>>If the author were a personal
>>friend I might offer a discount; but in general, my minimum rates are the
>>same regardless of who's paying the bill.
>
Sonsie wrote:
<...>Not every author is a
>penny-pincher, but many are.
Just want to say that the authors I've worked with have paid me at least my
minimum, except for a personal friend, and they've been anxious to pay me a
living wage. I also have a personal friend who publishes a few books a
year, and he pays me my minimum to index when he needs one. I know I've
been fortunate in this.
Victoria
vbaker@pacific.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:54:51 LCL
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Victoria Baker <vbaker@PACIFIC.NET>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709132313.QAA25028@pacific.net>
Lynn wrote:
>Lastly, I was explicitly told that they don't want user-friendly indexes,
>that the user can look up the reference if they don't understand it in the
>index. False drops here we come. Hmmmm.
One can't help but wonder, if not user friendly, why bother? And, why go
to such lengths to make them unfriendly? But, oh well.
>BTW, when the "able to leap tall buildings"
>cricket hopped onto hubby's desk (thankfully not mine) with an audible
>thud, it immediately disappeared somewhere. So, I'm indexing in a constant
>state of glancing around the room wondering "Where is that monster?"
I'll see your cricket and raise you a scorpion, which I found on the
kitchen shelf over the cookbooks a few minutes ago. Crickets, as the
Chinese say, are good luck. Scorpions genuinely make my skin crawl,
especially in my kitchen. Something so archetypally terrifying about their
shape...
Victoria
vbaker@pacific.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:44:24 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: EMickiT@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In a message dated 97-09-13 19:13:51 EDT, Lynn wrote:
<< Would anyone here look for "procedures"
as a main heading in an operations manual where everything is a procedure
of one sort or another? >>
No, I'd go directly to the verb (copying, deleting..) or to what the verb was
supposed to act on (files, folders...) I do realize you are addressing more
complex procedures. And after 15 years of gastroenterology research, I may
be biased. When I hear the word "procedure" I think of a polypectomy. ;-)
And did I read you right? They do not want it user-friendly? Why even
publish a user-hostile index? Good grief!
In Sympathy,
Micki
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:15:26 +0100
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Liza Weinkove <liza.weinkove@ZEN.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dublin conference
After a very hectic week, with several deadlines I'm at last finding time
to write about the Society of Indexers conference in Dublin. Chris
Blackburn has already given a very good summary of the "business" side, so
I will just add a few comments about the "social" side.
I thoroughly enjoyed the conference, which was held at Trinity College -
right in the centre of the city. Although I only live just across the Irish
Sea, I've never been to Ireland before, so I yielded to the temptation to
skip some of the conference sessions and spend a bit of time seeing the
city. Trinity College itself is interesting to look around, and as
conference attendees we were allowed free entry to the Old Library with the
Book of Kells. The old library itself is fascinating - for a picture see
the Trinity College web site. A snippet of info - anyone can stay in the
accommodation at Trinity during the summer vacation - prices start at 28
irish pounds a night bed and breakfast, and you can book by e-mail - see
the Trinity College web site for details.
One of my main reasons for going to conferences is to meet other indexers
and see old friends. We missed out a little on this at this conference, as
some of the meals were in communal areas, and there was _no_ bar - a
surprising omission this, in a land of bars. I didn't even get to try a
pint of Guinness... (it's supposed to taste better in Ireland). So I didn't
get to meet as many people as usual - I didn't meet Chris, and I didn't
meet Maria Sullivan Young - although I did attend her Cindex session (and I
now know how to pronounce her name). However indexers are resourceful
people and some managed to procure supplies of booze for the usual late
night sessions. It was during one of these that a number of
indexing-related limericks were composed. These were read out on the last
morning.
It was very good to have some publishers at the conference. There is a
thriving publishing industry in Ireland and not many indexers - two
full-time, Helen Litton and Julitta Clancy, although there were complaints
that newcomers to indexing found it difficult to get a foothold.
One interesting statistic that came up: 100 000 books were published in the
UK in 1996. The equivalent figure in the US is 40 000.
Future SI conferences planned are (with apologies for any mistakes): July
1998 Tynemouth (North-East England). October 1999 Canterbury Kent
(South-East England), and in 2000 a 3 day conference in Cambridge (July I
think). All overseas participants are very welcome!
Many thanks to Helen Litton and colleagues who organised the Dublin
conference - see you in Tynemouth next year.
Liza Weinkove
e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:04:39 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" <lsweetln@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
I am glad to know others rely on God's care also
.
Loraine F. Sweetland
IPS Information Problem Solvers
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:47:45 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" <lsweetln@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Small Business Questions
Home Office Computing's Paul and Sarah Edwards have written a number of
excellent books (available at most public libraries) on small business;
marketing, tax questions, etc. I reviewed many of them for "Library
Journal." They are well worth reading if you are a beginner or even if
you aren't.
Loraine F. Sweetland
IPS Information Problem Solvers
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:11:22 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Rachel Rice <rachelr@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970912132930.00979660@mailhost.persistence.com>
>Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business.
>How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly
>bills does your indexing work pay?
I do about 1 index per month, and it's about an eighth of my total income,
sometimes less, sometimes more.
Rachel Rice
Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
Chilmark, Mass
rachelr@tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:13:22 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709132347.QAA22959@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
At 04:46 PM 9/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Lynn: first of all, don't reenlist. One suggestion tape to disk, why not
>use the > sign indicating directed output, >, i.e.,
>copying
> tape > disk
> disk > tape
>
>The problem with using -> is its association with structures., but > or >>
>are perfectly good output signs. One is Unix, the other Unix and C++.
Hi Paul,
What an excellent suggestion! Thank you!
>
>Procedure is a can of worms. Yes, everything is a procedure, I suppose,
>but procedure is also a computer buzz word for certain languages, where
>functions are call procedures. Is this the problem.
No, this isn't the problem. Despite the hundreds and hundreds of commands,
it's not a C, C++, etc. book. The commands seem to be associated with the
system firmware and its proprietary operating system. I know what you mean
about the term "procedure" often referring to subroutines or functions, but
fortunately that's not the issue here. The manual is about operating a
certain type of hardware with a computerized interface. So it's also full
of commands and file management procedures. Awesome equipment produced by a
household-name manufacturer.
>
>As for the rest, what a nightmare. Too late to quit? And I thought I
>had worked for some strange people. Paul D. Buell
Actually, it would be a piece of cake without the style guide restrictions
and if the text wasn't so dense with indexable concepts and terms. I wish I
could quit and I was reluctant to take it on in the first place,
remembering how hard the other books were. I'm coming down with a bug or
something making it an impossible struggle to sit here at the computer for
as long as I need to without crashing. So on top of everything else, I'm
way behind on it. Eeeek!
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(techndex@pacbell.net)
TECHindex & Docs
Technical and Scientific Indexing
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:59:18 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709140154.SAA20848@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
At 06:29 PM 9/13/97 -0700, Michael wrote:
>At 04:09 PM 9/13/97 -0700, Lynn wrote:
>This and just about everything else you mention about your project sounds
>absurd indeed, but since you're still wrestling with it (for good and quick
>pay) here's a suggestion that might help out a tiny bit: how 'bout turning
>those hyphens into dashes as a way of communicating the sense of "to" a
>little more clearly?
Hi Michael,
Thanks for the suggestion!! I did try that early on, but still was unsure
of whether it would be clear to the user. So, I'm going with Paul's
suggestion of using a right angle bracket (>). But thanks so much for
trying to figure this out for me. It's deeply appreciated!
>
>"Sheeesh", as you would say. ;-)
And that's just what got printed on index-l. You wouldn't want to hear what
I've said here in the privacy of my own office. ;-D
>
>Rotsaruck.
I'll need it! Surely, my magic wand is around here someplace. ;-D
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(techndex@pacbell.net)
TECHindex & Docs
Technical and Scientific Indexing
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:02:38 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709140645.XAA29538@mail-gw2.pacbell.net>
At 02:44 AM 9/14/97 -0400, Micki wrote:
>In a message dated 97-09-13 19:13:51 EDT, Lynn wrote:
>
><< Would anyone here look for "procedures"
> as a main heading in an operations manual where everything is a procedure
> of one sort or another? >>
>
>No, I'd go directly to the verb (copying, deleting..) or to what the verb was
>supposed to act on (files, folders...) I do realize you are addressing more
>complex procedures. And after 15 years of gastroenterology research, I may
>be biased. When I hear the word "procedure" I think of a polypectomy. ;-)
Hi Micki,
ROFL!!!!!! This index is like a sigmoidoscopy without the lubricant. ;-D
Thanks for confirming how *you'd* look up a procedure which is how I always
index them (including in this book). It helps to know that I'm not orbiting
another planet after all.
>
>And did I read you right? They do not want it user-friendly? Why even
>publish a user-hostile index? Good grief!
I keep asking myself the exact same question! In the second book I did for
them (several books back), I had an extremely short turnaround (like 36-48
hrs) on a large book that had to be embedded in FrameMaker no less. So a
few five-word subentries got past the editing process. I was angrily told,
"You created a user-friendly index and it's *not* supposed to be
user-friendly!!" I'm not making this up.
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(techndex@pacbell.net)
TECHindex & Docs
Technical and Scientific Indexing
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:58:50 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Lynn Moncrief <techndex@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709140605.XAA22041@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
At 10:54 PM 9/13/97 LCL, Victoria wrote:
>
>One can't help but wonder, if not user friendly, why bother? And, why go
>to such lengths to make them unfriendly? But, oh well.
Hi Victoria,
Ah, the perversity of human nature. I can't figure it out either.
>
<snip of my earlier remarks>
>
>I'll see your cricket and raise you a scorpion, which I found on the
>kitchen shelf over the cookbooks a few minutes ago.
Eeeeeek!!!!!!! Fortunately we don't have those critters around here, even
though this is supposedly the desert.
> Crickets, as the
>Chinese say, are good luck. Scorpions genuinely make my skin crawl,
>especially in my kitchen. Something so archetypally terrifying about their
>shape...
Archetypically terrifying is right! That's why they represent an
astrological sign, IMHO. ;-D Is it any comfort to know that they try to
avoid needlessly stinging since it takes 14 hours to recharge their venom?
No, I didn't think so. ;-D
For some reason, crickets come into our house all of the time and because
of the Chinese saying, we don't kill them or let the cat kill them. Though
we do gently catch them in a cup and put them outside when there are too
many running around. [Sidenote: Even the cat, huntress extraordanaire,
wouldn't come into the office after I spotted that gyrasticus in here. Now
that's scarey.] However, this one was so big it should be paying rent and I
asked hubby to play the lottery since big cricket should equal big luck.
;-D Weird thing is that hubby (just a few hours later) read in a magazine
about a Web site containing images of Jerusalem crickets which are
supposedly enormous. (So this puppy is obviously a long way from home.) It
hasn't *still* reappeared nor chirped, so I'm still looking over my
shoulder. Now, I'm dying to know how you got the scorpion out of your
kitchen or are you still treading carefully in there? You won the bet in
the Arthropod Olympics, BTW. ;-D
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(techndex@pacbell.net)
TECHindex & Docs
Technical and Scientific Indexing
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:33:34 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
Lynn:
If they don't want it to be user-friendly, then give them literally what
they ask for and forget it.
There is a crude saying that you can't polish a turd. Your client has
specifically requested a turd. Don't waste your time trying to polish it.
(And request that your name not be associated with the end product.)
Dick
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:59:01 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Authors, a horror story
In-Reply-To: <199709140605.XAA27960@mx4.u.washington.edu>
My experience working for authors has been that they pay well and on time.
But I do academic indexes. Also: institutes and programs are often the
ones paying. As a translator I have often been told not to work for
individuals, "they don't pay," whereas I have never been stiffed by an
individual, including students, just agencies, often quite big ones.
Warning to the list: I recent did an index for an author in Mexico. Her
institute was to pay the bill. Leaving aside all the problems I had with
electronic and other communication with Mexico, all of which made this the
job from hell, payment came by electronic transfer and here the fun
started. The bank, in Mexico, initiating the electronic transfer, charged
the institute $50.00 for the transfer, when the money reached my account,
2.5 percent has mysteriously disappeared and my bank charged me $20.00 for
the transfer, all in all at total of $81.80 for a total bill that was well
under $500.00!! Make sure any of you planning to do business across
borders, especially with Mexico, take these things in account. Your
agreement to do the index should specify net proceeds less all deductions
in US $. If you quote a flat price, my suggestion is to add 20% if dealing
across borders and if the costs are less, refund the money. I think
international money orders are the way they usually do this kind of thing
but in Mexico I am told they cannot trust the mails. The result, what a
rip off! Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:07:17 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709141413.HAA16814@mx2.u.washington.edu>
Lynn: glad to make one useful suggestion! Sounds like you are in nerd
land. I have been in the unfortunate position before of dealing with nerd
specifications in a non-nerd area. It is unpleasant. I also interviewed
with a company once where the nerds had written the scripts for
international voice messages that where to be interchanged country by
country. Problem was the scripts assumed an English word order. They went
to Japan, and what do you know, the assumed patterns did not work.
Apparently they had plans to move into the Turkish market too (English: I
am hungry == Turkish: hunger+my there is, and that is an easy pattern for
Turkish, it gets much worse). I was told that if I were to be hired it was
to fix the problems but that the programmers had already made decisions
about the linguistic structures and I was not to alter them. I probably
blew it when I cracked up at that point, or was it when they asked me if
it would be OK to use Spanish (Mexican) in the Rio market! I think the
suggestion that one may have to alter script to fit the language rather
than the language to fit the script went write over their heads. It is a
wonder that some companies survive and make money at all. Paul D. Buell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:09:29 -0700
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "P. Buell" <pbuell@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket)
In-Reply-To: <199709141434.HAA13430@mx5.u.washington.edu>
Actually, you can polish a turd, one they are fossilized! But not very
well. Paul D. Buell (ex-archaeologist, whose tried)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:47:36 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Susan Wilkerson <Bookindexr@AOL.COM>
Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat Room
Hi everyone,
We we have now set up an easy entrance page for the ICQ Book Indexers Chat
just go to web site:
http://members.aol.com/bookindexr
or if you are a aol member click on this: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/boo
kindexr/index.htm">ICQ Book Indexr Chat</A>
Just click on the download but in the ICQ Communiation Panel.
Thanks
Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:35:48 -0500
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" <jbclend@FLASH.NET>
Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services
Subject: Indexing Income uses
In reply to Linsay Gower, who wrote:
> Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business.
> How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly
> bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely
> from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you
> indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm
> trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other
> than busy-ness.
>
I'm not quite sure how most people who have this freelance income
actually pay all their bills, but I am fortunate to be able to use my
income in a supplementary way, since my husband works for a corporation
with good benefits.
Since I have slow periods with no income (primarily Mar/Apr), we decided
to have my husband's income pay for all recurring expenses, including
some that are partially "business" by IRS standards, and to use my
income for special projects/events, such as vacation, Christmas, home
repair/improvement projects, etc. These items can be put off or worked
around during my slow periods. I hope to get my income up to $30,000
eventually. Looks like I might hit 20 this year. But I wouldn't want
my income to be the only one, for sure.
My colleagues tell me that eventually my slow period will disappear, and
that should improve the income flow. I also create an income gap every
year by going on a 2 week vacation no matter what. It's well worth the
lost income for the gain in sanity and serenity. Again, though, I don't
have to pay all my bills with my indexing income.
Joanne
--
AfterWords Indexing Services
Joanne E. Clendenen
9597 Jones Rd. #113
Houston, TX 77065
281-469-4461
email: jbclend@flash.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:11:38 -0400
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From: Ann Parrish <AParrsh@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dublin Limericks
Liza writes: "a number of indexing-related limericks were composed.
These were read out on the last morning."
If any of these are printable, I would enjoy hearing them. I don't
believe I have ever read an indexing-related limerick, and I yearn for
broader knowledge.
Ann Parrish
Parrish Professional Indexing