From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.eduFri Aug 25 11:00:21 1995
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:55:24 +0000
From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB <LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu>
To: Julius Ariail <jariail@gsaix2.cc.GaSoU.EDU>
Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9507B"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:02 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: johno@spry.com
Subject: Re: Hardware backups (AOL subscribers can ignore!)
In-Reply-To: <199507071824.LAA02485@homer.spry.com>
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Richard Evans <infodex@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>My "backup" is a 286/12 portable that cost me $200 in a second hand
>shop. With DOS 6 installed, it runs CINDEX plenty fast enough.
Hmm. Interesting idea. I have a 286 PC at home that would function well as a
DOS-based backup. My question is, how do you connect the two? What hardware and
software are you using?
Thanks for the good tip.
John O.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
John Overbaugh johno@spry.com
Technical Documentation
CompuServe Internet Division
Makers of Internet In A Box and Internet Office
Award-Winning PC to Internet Connectivity Solutions
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:12 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: JPerlman@aol.com
Subject: Re: MeSH
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Thank you to all who answered my query re ordering the MeSH medical reference
thesauri. I've just ordered the set, since I don't know which one or two
will work best for me.
Janet
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Janet Perlman jperlman@aol.com ^
^ Southwest Indexing 602-569-7302 ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:22 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us
Subject: Re: Hardware backups (AOL subscribers can ignore!)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 95 14:07:55 +0700."
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
John Overbaugh writes:
>You know, I'm convinced that some day, every home in America will have two
>computers, like many have two tv's now. Amazing, isn't it?
My two cents: We bought a Commodore about when our first child was born;
he's twelve now, and we now have four computers in the house. It IS amazing.
(OTOH, we're driving a '76 Olds with more rust than solid metal, so there
are tradeoffs...)
Maryann Corbett
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:34 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Lynn Moncrief <wyldfire@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
John,
You wrote:
>
>What I mean is that you'll never index the whole thing--it's a lot
>like searching for quarks: at the very instant you're indexing it, it
>grows by several files.
Gee, this reminds me of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in which
the very act of observation changes the system that is being observed.
:-)
>Now THERE'S an idea! That's a really good suggestion. If we were to
>create an index of the Web or even the Internet, and then request that
>people posting information on the Web submit to the index (like a
>Library of Congress?), we could probably keep on top of things. It
>could easily be done with existing WWW technology (HTML forms). The
>only drawback is that the 'index' produced would not be a professional
>index; it'd be indexed by content providers. But perhaps
>the well-designed form could even help with that.
>
>John O.
Excellent idea! Carefully designed forms would impose vocabulary
control, at least at the top level (unless the content providers are
really clueless and miscategorize an entry), then professional indexers
could massage the subentries. Having a cosmic-level thesaurus, however,
would help prevent a drift factor from creeping in if there are a large
number of indexers doing the "massaging".
Lynn Moncrief
TECHindex & Docs
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:43 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Suzanne Trottier <trottier@mv.MV.COM>
Subject: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi!
I got my first contract in indexing. I will meet next week with the
person to negociate the contract. I know that the average rate for
indexing is between $20 and $30/hour. But I am looking for some advice on
how to estimate a job.
For example : a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time on
the number of pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour.
I am looking forward to read your answers.
Thank you
Suzanne Trottier, MLS
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:53 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: CRONSHAW@BOOTES.UNM.EDU
Subject: New member request - Russian book needs index
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Dear List Members,
To introduce myself to the list, let me say briefly that I index (and
otherwise work with manuscripts) books dealing with Latin American
and Hispanic themes. My competence with Spanish is at the "near native
speaker" level. Even books in English, but that deal with Latin
American themes, benefit by having a bilingual indexer, because the
indexer is sensitive to accent marks and other niceties of the language.
Anything to make an editor's job easier...
One of my clients at McGraw-Hill in San Francisco seeks an indexer
skilled in Russian to index a Russian textbook (language). Please
contact Richard Mason directly at (415) 393-0241 - telephone. It
would be great if you mentioned that you saw the announcement on
the list.
Thanks, folks. I look forward to learning lots on this list.
Best regards,
Francine Cronshaw
East Mountain Editing Services
PO Box 1895
Tijeras, New Mexico 87059
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:40:21 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Dwight Walker <dwalker@zeta.org.au>
Subject: Re: MeSH
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Can somebody provide me with an address and ordering information for the
>> medical thesaurus MeSH -- all the various volumes.
>>
>> I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Janet Perlman
>> jperlman@aol.com
>>
>
There is a hypertext link to the National Library of Medicine MeSH list -
publications are free for download - about 150-200KB each.
See Aust. Soc of Indexers Resource page:
http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/resource.htm
or point gopher browser to gopher.nlm.nih.gov port 70 and choose
online
mesh
(gopher://gopher.nlm.nih.gov:70/11/online/mesh)
Bye
Dwight
----------------------------------------------------------
Dwight Walker
+61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F
My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker
AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/aussi.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:40:37 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Locatelli@aol.com
Subject: Dedicated indexing programs
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Fellow indexers,
I am now at that point in my indexing career where I am considering
purchasing a dedicated indexing program, i.e., CINDEX/MACREX. I would
appreciate hearing from those of you using such programs. I'd appreciate
knowing the following.
1. Which program do you use?
2. Overall, how would you rate it on a 1(lowest)-5(highest) scale?
3. What features do you like best?
4. What features do you like least?
5. What features doesn't it have that you wish it did?
6. If you had to make the purchase decision again now, would you buy the same
program? If not, what would you get and why?
To save bandwidth, please reply to me directly. I will compile the results
and would be happy to share them with those interested or the entire list if
that seems appropriate. Thanks for your cooperation and help.
Fred Leise <locatelli@aol.com>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:34:07 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: henderson@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU
Subject: Re: Dedicated indexing programs
In-Reply-To: <01HSP765A3JM000LXF@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU>
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I would like a copy of the results you receive from this request. Thanks!
Martha
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martha V. Henderson, Ed.D. Voice: (318)357-4403
Professor and Coordinator
Library Automation FAX: (318)357-4470
Northwestern State University
Natchitoches, LA 71457 Henderson@alpha.nsula.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 10 Jul 1995 Locatelli@aol.com wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Fellow indexers,
>
> I am now at that point in my indexing career where I am considering
> purchasing a dedicated indexing program, i.e., CINDEX/MACREX. I would
> appreciate hearing from those of you using such programs. I'd appreciate
> knowing the following.
>
> 1. Which program do you use?
> 2. Overall, how would you rate it on a 1(lowest)-5(highest) scale?
> 3. What features do you like best?
> 4. What features do you like least?
> 5. What features doesn't it have that you wish it did?
> 6. If you had to make the purchase decision again now, would you buy the same
> program? If not, what would you get and why?
>
> To save bandwidth, please reply to me directly. I will compile the results
> and would be happy to share them with those interested or the entire list if
> that seems appropriate. Thanks for your cooperation and help.
>
> Fred Leise <locatelli@aol.com>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:34:30 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: "Michael K. Smith" <mksmith@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I got my first contract in indexing. I will meet next week with the
>person to negociate the contract. I know that the average rate for
>indexing is between $20 and $30/hour. But I am looking for some advice on
>how to estimate a job.
>
>For example : a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time on
>the number of pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour.
>
>I am looking forward to read your answers.
>
>Thank you
>
>Suzanne Trottier, MLS
Well, I've been doing this a few years, but I figure my average speed at
about 10pp./hour. When I started indexing, it was probably half that. It
will vary a great deal, of course, depending on the density of the material
and how many posts per page you end up doing. But 10pp./hour is the average
for me, figuring in philosophy texts and sports biographies.
I charge *per indexable page*, though, not by the hour. (I got stuck a
couple times doing it that way when I was starting out.) The faster you can
work, the less you end up making per hour, if you charge by the hour.
Because I'm located in Texas, I can undercut the East Coast/West Coast
typical rates by a bit and still come out with a comfortable margin, which
helps.
Mike
Michael K. Smith mksmith@metronet.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:34:57 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Bookindexr@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Original Post:
Subj: How do you estimate your job?
Date: Mon, Jul 10, 1995 8:48 AM CST
>>>... But I am looking for some advice on how to estimate a job. For example
: a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time on the number of
pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour....
>>>
Hi Suzanne,
This is a deep subject. In my view, you have to think about two parallel
analyses. First, the question of how much time the job will take you.
The best way is to get a significant sample of the actual work you will be
doing (trying to get the client to give you a *representative* sample) of at
least 10 pages, a chapter if possible. Ask the client if there are
limitations or guidelines as to how heavily this material should be indexed.
Technical material often requires more entries per page than general
material. Also ask for a sample index from another work if they want a
particular format. With all this in mind, read the sample material and
actually index at least 10 pages, keeping track of time. Use this as a basis
for the whole job, adding a bit of fudge factor and rounding up where
possible in case there are denser passages. Use this time estimate for work
scheduling purposes, and figuring out whether you can meet the client's
deadline. It is also involved in figuring the bid, the other parallel
analysis.
The bid to the client probably should not show an hourly rate for indexing.
This can result in making you appear as (and behave like) an employee of the
client. It also makes the client wonder whether you are a fast worker,
whether they are in for a surprise if the job takes a lot longer than your
estimate, and may make them try to negotiate you to a lower rate. You may
want to show such a rate for extra services, such as proofing or preparing
camera-ready copy. The hourly rate for indexing is really most useful as
information for your own use in making decisions about your indexing
business. Think of yourself as providing a service, and the client is
interested in the total cost of the service for this job, not in how you
figure your costs and income.
Preparing the bid may be as simple as deciding whether to accept their fixed
price and, if you decide to accept it, spelling out the terms of the job.
(The American Society of Indexers has a contract brochure which is a good
checklist of the issues you may want to get in writing before you begin.
Deadline, form of delivery and payment terms are the obvious minimums.) If
the client offers you a fixed price, such as $ per page, you can multiply
this out and take that as your gross income for the job. Then subtract any
costs you must cover within this amount. This might include paper, diskettes,
phone/fax charges, reference materials or trips to the library to do
research, shipping, etc. Sometimes the client will pay shipping by giving you
their FedEx account number, or perhaps shipping is not a factor if you are
local.
After all these subtractions you have your net income for the job, and you
can divide by your time estimate to figure out what you are getting paid per
hour. This should enable you to figure out whether you can afford to take the
job or not.
If the client asks for a bid from you without a clue as to the amount they
expect to pay, you can start with the time estimate and multiply out by the
rate you need to charge for your time. Remember that you get no benefits and
have nothing withheld for taxes from this money, so don't undercharge. You
really only get to keep about half of it. Be sure to spell out anything you
expect the client to pay for from the list of cost items mentioned above.
I guess that's about it, except to say that good estimating is a question of
experience and judgment. Good judgment is developed through a process of
learning from the consequences of bad judgment. Good luck!
Regards
Larry Harrison
<Bookindexr@aol.com>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:35:09 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
You wrote:
>...I am looking for some advice on
>how to estimate a job.
>
You can't really estimate your first exopsure to a new job without
doing a sample.
Your method is correct, but you won't know how many pages per hour you
can do until you try a few pages. I do software manuals, which
typically have lots of illustrations and examples but modest amounts of
text. I have one client that I consistently average seven pages an
hour for; another consistently averages ten pages per hour. I have
done an estimate on some historical documents wherein the text was much
denser and only averaged four pages per hour.
Dick Evans
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:12 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Jonathan Jermey <jonathan@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hardware backups (AOL subscribers can ignore!)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>The question that I posed to AOL has, What does everybody use as a backup
>against hardware failures (assuming, of course, that EVERYBODY backs up
>critical files regularly)? A second computer? Rental? Borrow from
>a friend? Live-in technician? Prayer?
>
>Carolyn Weaver
We have four computers in the house (they just accumulate, somehow...),
three of which will run Macrex. Macrex comes with a Backup to Disk feature
which we use, not once but twice, after indexing each chapter, so that we
have complete backups on two separate floppy disks. Two computers are
desktop models (a 486 and a 386), but our third computer is an old (1986?)
Toshiba T1100 laptop with 640K RAM, mono screen, no hard disk, but two 720Kb
floppy disk drives. It will run off a rechargeable battery for about four
hours. We take it with us when we're away from home and need to get an index
finished to a deadline, but it's also nice to know it's there if the power
goes out. We're fairly well covered (touch wood).
Jonathan
Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne
Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199
jonathan@magna.com.au
"From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:22 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: JPerlman@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your ...
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
You could get paid by the hour, by the indexable page, or by the entry (per
entry in the final index). There are indexers paid each way, and some
industries pay one way rather than the other.
As some have already said, if you are paid by the hour and you're fast, you
don't make a fair wage if you report your time honestly. On the other hand,
it may be advantageous. With many years of indexing experiences (but no MSL
- an MA in mgmt), I have never been able to get anybody to pay me above
$25/hour, just FYI.
The most reasonable way is by the indexable page. Rates can range from $2 to
5 and 6 if you've got a terrific client with funding or some other special
circumstance -- but that's rare. Page size (some books are oversized),
number of entries per page you expect (a reference book vs. social science
discussion, for example), and primarily your speed all influence the per page
rate.
Hope these guidelines help you out. Good luck!
Janet Perlman
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Janet Perlman jperlman@aol.com ^
^ Southwest Indexing 602-569-7302 ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:34 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Shore Editorial Services <LSHORE@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Who says the "average" rate for indexing is between $20 and $30 per hour?
Not so in scholarly publishing, at least! Would that it were! Don't know
about others, but I charge a per-page rate for indexing (not an hourly
rate) and most of my University press clients seem to consider this the
norm for indexing. I do, however, charge an hourly rate for editing,
proofreading, etc. University presses pay approximately $3.00 per page for
indexing, give or take a little.
Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services
Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:48 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Isawriter@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi, Suzanne....
I just finished my first indexing job following the KISS principal. Before
bidding, I requested and got two sample chapters of the book. I then
submitted a per page price and stuck to it. Per hour, I might have earned
about a third of minimum wage because I was learning while doing. That's
all.
Larry's advice about the ASI forms is good. I made a printable contract and
attachment which is very closely modeled on the ASI contract and attachment.
Good luck!
Craig Brown :{)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:04:21 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Dwight Walker <dwalker@zeta.org.au>
Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>Now THERE'S an idea! That's a really good suggestion. If we were to
>>create an index of the Web or even the Internet, and then request that
>>people posting information on the Web submit to the index (like a
>>Library of Congress?), we could probably keep on top of things. It
>>could easily be done with existing WWW technology (HTML forms). The
>>only drawback is that the 'index' produced would not be a professional
>>index; it'd be indexed by content providers. But perhaps
>>the well-designed form could even help with that.
>>
>>John O.
>
>Excellent idea! Carefully designed forms would impose vocabulary
>control, at least at the top level (unless the content providers are
>really clueless and miscategorize an entry), then professional indexers
>could massage the subentries. Having a cosmic-level thesaurus, however,
>would help prevent a drift factor from creeping in if there are a large
>number of indexers doing the "massaging".
>
This solves a problem with getting material to index on the internet. Unlike
paper based material, it is hard to nail down copy to index on the internet
- who has an up-to-date directory for starters!
The USENET newsgroups are a pretty chaotic hierarchy. A good index of that
would be great too. There's tons of work there too. Some Internet Yellow
Pages have a go at it.
It could become a Web page to browse when you're searching for content on a
particular topic.
One final thing about Web indexing came up in Melbourne at the conference.
Mike Middleton from Qld Uni of Technology Faculty of Info Tech talked about
having keywords built into all Web home pages. I use HTML Writer. The latest
version has a template. When you load it, it prompts for a title, a short
phrase about the pages and keywords. When the page is created there are meta
words in the header to identify the page.
I just created the Sydney Linux Users Group pages:
http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/SLUG/index.html
Have a look at the source on Netscape | View. It is an interesting start to
embedding subject entries right in the code.
Bye
Dwight
PS
HTML Writer home page:
http://lal.cs.byu.edu/people/nosack/
email: html-writer@byu.edu
----------------------------------------------------------
Dwight Walker
+61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F
My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker
AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/aussi.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:04:40 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Lynn Moncrief <wyldfire@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Suzanne,
Congratulations on getting your first contract! IMHO, $20/hr is too
low, regardless of where you're located. You're going to produce a
professional quality index, regardless of the fact that this is your
first contract and $20/hr is not a professional-level rate. I think
that ASI said that the average is $32.50/hour. <donning asbestos suit
here for flames if I'm wrong. ;-)>
Is your client locked into an hourly rate structure? A per page rate,
as Larry Harrison indicated has far more advantages, not only to you
(especially if you're a fast indexer) but to your client who will know
from the outset the maximum you will charge.
Some pitfalls to watch out for in technical texts include tables, which
can generate a large number of entries on a page in some circumstances.
In software manuals, you may have a large number of menu commands to be
indexed, especially if the application is one with many small "applets"
containing their own menus. And this balloons even further if the
product works with a GUI where you're also indexing window names,
dialog box names, etc. Symbols, which are usually double-posted, are
another bugaboo if there are a lot of them. If it is a programming
manual, you may find the need to index a large number of language
components (function names, message and event names, etc.). If it is a
manual for electronic hardware, you may find yourself having to index a
large number of front panel indicators, switches, circuit boards, etc.,
not to mention troubleshooting and other procedures. These are some of
the types of things that I've typically found can add to the average
number of entries per page (a biggie when setting per page rates) and
time (important when giving the client a ballpark for maximum time when
charging hourly rates).
When negotiating your rates with the client, it would be a good idea to
scan as much of the book as possible. Often the first few chapters are
introductory or mostly theoretical narrative and may not generate as
many entries as those later on in the book where you get into the
nitty-gritty of procedures, tables, etc. At least that has been my
experience.
Yet another important consideration when setting rates is the type of
software you'll use for indexing. Embedded indexes are more difficult
and time-consuming to create and that should be accounted for in your
rate structure and time estimates. Unless you create the index in
dedicated indexing software before embedding from a page-order sort,
you may find yourself spending a huge amount of time editing an
embedded index. (IMHO, creating the index in dedicated indexing
software first permits you to write a far better index, but that too
adds to the time involved.)
Hope this helps some. Good luck!
Lynn Moncrief
TECHindex & Docs
You wrote:
>
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>Hi!
>
>I got my first contract in indexing. I will meet next week with the
>person to negociate the contract. I know that the average rate for
>indexing is between $20 and $30/hour. But I am looking for some advice
on
>how to estimate a job.
>
>For example : a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time
on
>the number of pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour.
>
>I am looking forward to read your answers.
>
>Thank you
>
>
>Suzanne Trottier, MLS
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:04:58 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Mrowland@aol.com
Subject: Massachusetts Chapter Summer Meeting
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Massachusetts Chapter, American Society of Indexers
Summer Meeting: Saturday, August 5, 1995, 1 pm
Name and Subject Authority Files
What are they? How can they help Indexers?
Speakers:
Jean A Thompson, SUNY Albany
Alison Chipman, Art and Architecture Thesaurus
Art & Architecture Thesaurus
62 Stratton Road, Williamstown, MA 02167
(413) 458-2151/(413) 458-3757 (fax)
Jean Thompson will explain what authority records are, how to decipher the
codes involved, and take a more detailed look at name authorities: personal,
computer, and geographical. Jean is a librarian at the State University of
New York at Albany, and has had a long career as a book cataloger. Two years
ago, she became interested in indexing when she worked with a member of the
Maine Indexers Group. When he lamented how difficult it was to locate current
information about people while constructing indexes, she suggested he try
using the Library of Congress authority records she had relied on as a
cataloger.
Alison Chipman will discuss the use of subject authorities, citing examples
of existing authorities, how to find out about authorities for specific
subject fields, and how to use them while wrestling with an index, including
using automated authorities together with computer-assisted indexing programs
(like CINDEX and Macrex). Alison is Authority Editor at Art & Architecture
Thesaurus. She has done periodical indexing for AAT and has completed several
book indexes. Her experience with thesaurus construction and term research
should pertinent for all types of indexing.
"Authority control," Alison Chipman says, "is not a new thing for veteran
indexers; they've probably done it all their working lives without giving it
that term. It's library jargon for a structured way of ensuring consistency
of language among indexers and catalogers within the same collection or
system."
Directions: Stratton Road is off Route 2, just east of Williamstown center.
To get to Stratton Road:
>From Route 7: Turn onto Route 2 East in the center of Williamstown. Travel
about 1.5 miles and turn right onto Stratton Road.
>From the west, via Route 2: When you come to the intersection of Routes 2 and
7, stay on Route 2 East. Travel about 1.5 miles and turn right onto Stratton
Road.
>From the east, via Route 2: When you cross the town line from North Adams
into Williamstown, look for Stratton Road on your left, shortly after Luce
Road, also on your left. Turn left onto Stratton.
Once you're on Stratton Road, continue past the Williamstown Medical
Associates to the second house on the left, a long, thin, brickfronted house.
Look for number 62 on the mailbox.
For more information, contact Alison Chipman at AAT or Diane Benison,
508/393-3447.
Mark your calendars now!!!
*****American Society of Indexers, Massachusetts Chapter Fall Conference****
Indexing Education: Trainees to Master Indexers
Saturday, October 21, 1995 , 8:00 am to 4:30 pm
Simmons College, Boston, MA
Barbara Cohen will present her ASI Professional Development Workshop designed
to train experienced indexers (master indexers) in the art of hiring and
training new or relatively inexperienced indexers. In addition, several
Master/Trainee pairs will share their approaches and experiences in working
together to help conference participants decide what sort of master/trainee
relationship might be best for them and to learn how to go about designing
and implementing such an arrangement. We will also discuss other ways to
learn indexing or to improve upon your indexing skills. For registration
information and to help in conference planning, contact Marilyn Rowland
(508/457-4525 or Mrowland@aol.com) or Diane Benison.(508/393-3447 or
76620.460@compuserve.com).
Marilyn Rowland
President, Massachusetts Chapter ASI
Falmouth, MA
mrowland@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:05:19 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Elinor Lindheimer <elinorl@mcn.org>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Suzanne asked how indexers estimate jobs, and both Dick Evans and Larry
Harrison recommended asking for a sample. I heartily agree. Every job is
different, and you can't use an average over all different kinds of
material, unless you expect to come out ahead sometimes, and way behind others.
I also liked Larry's suggestion that you deduct your expenses before
figuring your hourly rate. I've never done that, but I do think that the
hourly we tell ourselves we are making is in reality about half, as Larry
said. We have to keep that in mind, if we are going to look at ourselves as
professionals and command the respect we deserve.
Lowballing, undercutting other indexers, selling ourselves cheaply--all
denigrate the profession and lower your own image in the eyes of your
clients and colleagues, who are all sources of potential referrals and
future jobs.
The only time I feel you can justify suggesting a rate you KNOW is low is
when you are a new indexer, and you so inform the client, adding that as you
gain experience your rates will go up accordingly. But even a new indexer's
time is valuable, and should not be undervalued.
I don't think it should matter where you live, not these days when we have
the Internet and Federal Express, etc. (And Federal Express costs the same
no matter where you are.) We are all in this together, and your success is
my success as well.
Good luck to you, Suzanne!
Elinor Lindheimer
Elinor Lindheimer
elinorl@mcn.org
Mendocino, CA
voice: (707) 937-1646
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:50:49 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Richard Evans <infodex@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
You wrote:
>
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>Who says the "average" rate for indexing is between $20 and $30 per
hour?
Well, around November of '93 the ASI said the average was $32.50.
Anyone know if the ASI has any more recent figures?
Dick Evans
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:51:06 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Sabourin Conrad <sabourco@ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: References
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Please find below the list of volumes published in the INFOLINGUA series.
We believe they will be of interest to the subscribers of this list.
Conrad F. Sabourin sabourco@ere.umontreal.ca
**************************************************************************
INFOLINGUA
(ISSN=1198-1083)
A series of extensive and fully indexed bibliographies in
computational text processing
**************************************************************************
The references in the following bibliographies span the period beginning
with the inception of the computer to the present. 50% of the references
were published after 1985. Documents were included in the bibliographies
regardless of their country of origin or the language in which they were
written. The entries describe work done on more than 150 natural languages.
Each reference is assigned a set of keywords taken from a thesaurus of
3800. Between 30 and 50 percent of each book consists of a detailed two
level index allowing multiple access to the information.
**************************************************************************
COMPUTATIONAL LINGUISTICS IN INFORMATION SCIENCE : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by
Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 2 volumes, 1047p, ISBN=2-921173-23-9 US$ 150
The references in this extensively indexed bibliography demonstrate how
computer technologies can aid in finding information in texts. These
technologies can be used to perform tasks such as information retrieval,
indexing, abstracting, content analysis, information extraction, etc. Many
references concentrate on the tools developed to help perform these tasks.
Number of references : Total = 6390, information retrieval = 2100,
full-text = 890, conceptual = 60 ; automatic indexing = 930, text abstraction =
270, content analysis = 530, information extraction = 520, concordance = 150,
indexing language = 110, query language = 210, index generation = 360,
query transformation = 70, text to data base conversion = 150, thesaurus =
390, parsing and analysis = 510, cluster/clustering = 70, hypertext = 230,
keyword system = 70, statistical model = 150, weighting of keywords = 80,
performance/efficiency = 210, General Inquirer = 50, RESPONSA = 30,
SMART = 40, TOPIC = 40, etc.
COMPUTER MEDIATED COMMUNICATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin and
Rolande M. Lamarche
1994, 2 volumes, 862p, ISBN=2-921173-15-8 US$ 130
This entirely indexed bibliography contains references to papers discussing
how computers are becoming intermediaries in the communication process.
Papers refer to the transmission of complex texts (hypertext, hypermedia),
letters (electronic mail), talks (computer conferences), etc. or the
contribution of information technologies in collaborative work, meeting
support, interviews, etc.
Number of references : Total = 5680, hypertext = 1500, hypertext link = 220,
Hyperties = 190, hypermedia = 440, document browsing = 180, meeting
support = 50, collaborative work = 220, collective text creation = 90,
computer conferencing = 550, electronic mail = 400, electronic publishing =
370, multimodal communication = 100, human-machine communication = 960,
computer interviewing = 100, ergonomics = 410, linguistic game = 150,
multimedia document = 130, socio-political aspects =100,
performance/efficiency = 410, etc.
ELECTRONIC DOCUMENT PROCESSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin and
Rolande M. Lamarche
1994, 551p, ISBN=2-921173-17-4 US$ 80
The studies listed in this entirely cross-referenced bibliography describe
all aspects of electronic document preparation including formatting,
typesetting and mark-up (ODA, SGML). The bibliography also covers topics
like document management and interchanging as well as document structure and
coding standards.
Number of references : Total = 4260, document editing = 2400, formatting =
140, typesetting = 540, coding/mark-up = 420, interchanging = 170, management
= 260, structure = 170, coding standard = 180 ; ODA = 100, SGML = 190,
TEX = 160, document editing learning = 90, page description language = 20,
text and graphics document = 110, software evaluation = 90, ease of use = 70,
word hyphenation = 20, etc.
QUANTITATIVE AND STATISTICAL LINGUISTICS : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 508p, ISBN=2-921173-19-0 US$ 80
The references included in this extensively indexed bibliography deal with
the quantification of linguistic entities in text or in spoken language.
Among the phenomena under study are the frequency, length, co-occurrence,
clustering and entropy of linguistic entities like phonemes, letters, words,
grammatical categories, grammatical features, etc.
Number of references : Total = 3100, frequency of characters = 60,
phonemes = 90, words = 640, grammatical categories = 90, grammatical features =
250 ; lexical richness = 100, word collocation = 230, entropy = 150,
word length = 70, sentence length = 90, language interrelationship = 40,
word association = 50, word cluster = 20, diachronic evolution = 70,
information theory = 40, etc.
OPTICAL CHARACTER RECOGNITION AND DOCUMENT SEGMENTATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY,
by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 512p, ISBN=2-921173-25-5 US$ 80
This fully indexed bibliography holds references on optical segmentation of
printed documents and optical recognition of characters of texts, whether
they are printed, hand-printed or cursive. Many references describe the
methods and tools used to attain these objectives. Also, the bibliography
covers the fields of writer or scriptor identification and handwriting
modelling.
Number of references : Total = 3700, recognition of cursive characters = 910,
hand printed characters = 490, printed characters = 390, multi-font
characters = 140, alphanumerics = 890, digits = 220, ideograms = 700 ; on-line
recognition = 170, writer identification = 330, document segmentation = 320,
feature extraction = 260, character isolation = 140, character thinning = 90,
Arabic = 70, handwriting generation = 40, writing/scripting model = 70,
character classification = 150, system training = 50, word recognition = 90,
dynamic programming = 30, neural network = 130, syntactic method = 80,
pressure/speed method = 120, character recognition assessment = 330, etc.
LITERARY COMPUTING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 581p ISBN=2-921173-12-3 US$ 80
The references included in this fully indexed bibliography demonstrate how
computational techniques can be used to study literary texts (fiction,
poetry, theatre), religious texts (Bible, Tora, Quran), philosophical texts,
and classical texts (Greek, Latin, Hebrew). Some of the studies focus on
the content of the texts while others examine their style or deal with
authorship attribution.
Number of references : Total = 4060, style analysis = 700, author
identification = 340, text collation = 220, literary concordance and index =
840, fiction = 670, poetry = 670, theatre = 200, bible/tora/quran = 500,
philosophy/history = 250, archaic languages = 70, Greek = 240, Hebrew = 180,
Latin = 380, rhythm = 40, theme analysis = 100, creative text generation
(prose/verse) = 140, metrical analysis = 80, literary criticism = 190, etc.
COMPUTER ASSISTED LANGUAGE TEACHING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
and Elca Tarrab
1994, 2 volumes, 1066p, ISBN=2-921173-13-1 US$ 150
The papers referenced in this fully indexed bibliography illustrate how
information technologies are being used to help people (children, adults)
learn languages or help them produce texts that conform to grammatical
and rhetorical norms in their mother tongue or in a foreign language. Many
papers refer to systems designed to detect and correct lexical or
grammatical errors in texts.
Number of references : Total = 8010, teaching orthography = 130, writing =
1500, composition = 770, grammar = 430, listening/comprehension = 150,
reading = 830, speaking = 200, vocabulary = 250, keyboarding = 60, foreign
languages = 1900, classical languages = 100 ; readability analysis = 200,
lexical/grammatical error detection/correction = 500, text revision = 220,
text style checking = 210, text composition support = 440, electronic
communications = 210, authoring language = 120, videodisc/cd-rom = 200,
hypertext = 270 ; teaching adults = 750, children = 1230 ; attitudes = 220,
performance/efficiency = 290, evaluation of results = 380, etc.
COMPUTATIONAL MORPHOLOGY : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 492p, ISBN=2-921173-01-8 US$ 80
The references in this extensively indexed bibliography focus on the use of
formal, algorithmical, and computational methods for performing morphological
analysis and generation. The methods are applied to dozens of natural languages.
Number of references : Total = 2350, morphological analysis = 1300,
morphological generation = 290, lemmatization = 260, morphophonology = 80,
inflectional morphology = 150, derivational morphology = 50, two-level
model = 100, LISP = 20, PROLOG = 30, etc.
COMPUTATIONAL PARSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 2 volumes, 1029p, ISBN=2-921173-02-6 US$ 150
The entries in this extensively indexed bibliography refer to computational
methods, algorithms, and strategies used to analyze sentences and uncover
their underlying logical or semantic structures. References to nearly all
problematic linguistic phenomena including ellipsis, anaphora, ambiguity,
coordination, and idioms are provided.
Number of references : Total = 5180, syntactic analysis = 1110, semantic
analysis = 710, semantic interpretation = 260, parsing algorithm = 200,
parsing strategy = 70, chart parsing = 170, ambiguity = 400, anaphora =
110, coordination/conjunction = 110, ellipsis = 40, methaphor = 30,
ellipsis = 40, idiom = 40, noun compound = 40, tense = 60, constraint =
100, garden path = 30, sub-language = 50, ill-formed input = 100, logic
programming = 70, semantic representation = 100, 80 parsing methods,
24 knowledge representation formalisms, PROLOG = 210, etc.
COMPUTATIONAL LEXICOLOGY AND LEXICOGRAPHY : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 2 volumes, 1031p, ISBN=2-921173-04-2 US$ 150
The papers refered to in this fully indexed bibliography deal with the
formalization, design or development of computational dictionaries, lexical
databases and term banks. Many papers refer to the extraction of linguistic
data from machine readable dictionaries.
Number of references : Total = 5910, dictionary (production) = 1380,
thesaurus = 680, term bank = 680, analysis dictionary = 1230, transfer
dictionary = 140, generation dictionary = 60, lexical database/machine
readable dictionary = 550, lexical semantics = 780, lexicon grammar = 110,
dictionary design/organization = 310, lexical knowledge base = 100, word
compound = 40, synonymy = 50, idiom = 60, linguistic object extraction = 100;
dictionary : bilingual = 20, conceptual = 30, reverse/inverted = 17,
frequency = 60 ; meaning-text theory = 30 ; DELAF/DELAS = 30, OED = 60,
EURODICAUTOM = 50, LDOCE = 80, MESH = 20, SNOMED = 17, TEAM = 30, TLF = 20,
TERMIUM = 30, DEC = 30, etc.
COMPUTATIONAL TEXT UNDERSTANDING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 657p, ISBN=2-921173-06-9 US$ 80
All the titles of this fully cross-referenced bibliography pertain to the
understanding of texts by computers. While some references focus on the
intellectual parameters (beliefs, goals, intentions) used in the
understanding process, others describe the tools (knowledge representation,
types of reasoning etc.) used by the systems to achieve understanding.
Number of references : Total = 3830, natural language programming = 110,
argument analysis = 80, anaphora = 120, ellipsis = 50, methaphor = 70,
sub-language = 50, pragmatics = 120, reference = 70, semantics = 190,
speech act = 60, knowledge acquisition = 80, reasoning = 120, belief = 100,
discourse = 170, focus = 30, goal = 90, inference = 350, intention = 30,
knowledge representation = 750, planning = 100, narrative/story = 190;
15 types of reasoning, 21 knowledge representation formalisms, etc.
COMPUTATIONAL TEXT GENERATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
with a survey article by Mark T. Maybury
1994, 649p, ISBN=2-921173-07-7 US$ 80
This fully indexed bibliography includes references to studies on the
computational generation of text from data or from a semantic structure.
The generation process can take place in the context of applications like
machine translation or natural language interfaces. The generation process
can also be entirely creative, producing fictional or poetical texts. The
bibliography holds references to all these types of generation processes.
Number of references : Total = 2870, text generation from data = 1060,
text generation from structure = 730, text planning = 180, sentence
generation = 310, explanation generation = 330, RST = 40, pragmatics = 50,
text generation : fiction/poetry = 140, text paraphrasing = 50, dialogue =
70, discourse = 90, conceptual representation = 40, user modelling = 100,
systemic grammar = 90, rhetorics = 40, reference = 50, pronoun = 40,
tense = 30, bilingual system = 50, goal = 70, inference = 50, MUMBLE = 20,
NIGEL = 30, PENMAN = 40, etc.
NATURAL LANGUAGE INTERFACES : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 2 volumes, 847p, ISBN=2-921173-08-5 US$ 130
The papers referenced in this fully indexed bibliography describe systems
that attempt communication in natural languages between humans and computers.
Because of the nature of the communication problems involved, hundreds of
references deal with different aspects of dialogue and user modelling.
Number of references : Total = 4100, interface to database = 1100, to expert
system = 70, to question-answering system = 640, to robot = 70, to operating
system = 70 ; conversation system = 300, interface : vocal = 210, pragmatics =
80, dialogue = 450, dialogue structure = 40, dialogue break-up/repair = 20,
dialogue : collaborative = 60, language : quasi-natural = 100, inference = 200,
speech act = 30, discourse = 70, discourse representation = 20, goal = 70,
planning = 50, user modelling = 160, system portability = 130, etc.
MACHINE TRANSLATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin and L. R. Bourbeau
1994, 2 volumes, 1168p, ISBN=2-921173-10-7 US$ 150
The references included in this extensively indexed bibliography present
studies on the use of computers in the translation of one natural language
into another. Over 120 systems operating on more than 60 different
languages are described. Some of the systems attempt to translate verbal
communications.
Number of references : Total = 8070, aids to translation = 550, speech
translation =100 ; ambiguity = 240, interlingua = 300, polysemy = 40,
intermediate structure = 140, translation workstation = 110, post-edition =
120, transfer = 280, use of statistics = 50, commercial aspects = 120,
performance/efficiency = 170 ; 60 different natural languages ; 120 systems,
TAUM = 230, EUROTRA = 430, SUSY = 100, SYSTRAN = 230, GETA = 190, PAHO = 30,
LOGOS = 60, METAL = 80, DLT = 60, etc.
COMPUTATIONAL CHARACTER PROCESSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 580p, ISBN=2-921173-18-2 US$ 80
This fully cross-referenced bibliography is devoted to the problems linked
to the processing of character sets larger than the English one. The topics
covered include the coding (internal and external), input, output, conversion,
generation and printing of these characters.
Number of references : Total = 4120, character coding = 550, input = 900,
output = 260, conversion = 360, generation = 400 ; text compression = 240,
hashing = 110, string matching = 300, font design = 160, coding standard =
110, keyboard design = 230, literate programming = 330, document display/
printing = 160, bilingual/multilingual system = 80, Braille = 140,
Arabic = 160, Chinese = 620, Japanese = 450, Indian Languages = 150, etc.
MATHEMATICAL AND FORMAL LINGUISTICS : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 612p, ISBN=2-921173-20-4 US$ 80
This fully cross-referenced bibliography deals with the problems of
formalization and mathematical representation of linguistic phenomena. This
formalization is made possible by the use of mathematical languages like the
numerous kinds of logics and grammar formalisms referred to in this
bibliography.
Number of references : Total = 3840, formal linguistics = 1470, mathematical
linguistics = 1910, grammar formalism = 480, grammar testing = 90,
logic = 820, quantifier = 300, situation semantics = 50, fuzziness = 110,
negation = 50, reference = 50, semantics = 550, discourse representation = 40,
tense logic = 60, unification = 50 ; 51 kinds of logic, 240 kinds of grammar,
etc.
COMPUTATIONAL SPEECH PROCESSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin
1994, 2 volumes, 1187p, ISBN=2-921173-21-2 US$ 150
All the references included in this fully indexed bibliography pertain to
speech processing by computers. The main processes studied are the analysis,
segmentation, recognition, understanding, coding, enhancement, and synthesis
of speech. Numerous references describe the methods and tools for speech
processing as well as the applications of speech technologies.
Number of references : Total = 8290, speech analysis = 1110, speech
recognition = 2600, speech understanding = 600, speech coding = 560,
speech synthesis = 1500, speech segmentation = 290, noise interference = 160,
pitch extraction = 110, formant perception/estimation = 230, analysis by
synthesis = 40, speech intelligibility = 230, vocal tract simulation = 110,
human-machine vocal communication = 340, text-to-speech = 560, speaker
identification = 290, speech data base = 90, neurocomputing = 200, prosody
processing = 600, phoneme identification = 500, speech enhancement = 60,
vector quantization = 180, time warping = 90, hidden Markov model = 220,
ADPCM = 40, CEPSTRUM = 40, DPM = 130, LPC = 340, etc.
********************************************************************************
ORDERING INFORMATION
All orders must be PREPAID in U.S. dollars.
Payment : Bank draft drawn on a U.S. bank (via your local bank) or
INTERNATIONAL money order
Payable to : INFOLINGUA inc.
P.O. Box 187 Snowdon
Montreal, Qc, H3X 3T4
CANADA
Shipping fees : -Surface mail : free
-Air mail : add US$ 5 per volume inside North America
: add US$ 12 per volume outside North America
Sales taxes : -Canadian residents add GST 7% (GST no 125727982)
Information : email : 73651.2144@compuserve.com
********************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:51:19 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Suzanne Trottier <trotties@ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: How do you estimate... (Part II)
In-Reply-To: <199507112347.TAA14406@eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi!
Thank you for all the answers. But I still have more questions about that
subject.
I talked with the author today and she told me that the publisher is used
to pay .75 to 1.00\index entry. Is this usual? (I don't think so, since
none of your answers mentionned it :) )
I have also some difficulty to understand how a rate per indexable page
has more advantages than a rate by the hour. Some people said that for a
technical book of 500 pages I should estimate to spend 100 hours. So at
$25/hour x 100 = $2500. Per indexable page, if the average rate is $2.50
the price will be only $1250. (assuming that all the 500 pages are
indexable). Am I right?
Thank you again for your collaboration.
Suzanne Trottier
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:26:04 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: MaryMort@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you estimate your ...
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Suzanne, are you in Canada? Some of the differences in the dollar figures
being quoted may be due to the different currencies. I've heard of being
paid by the entry (specifically a figure of US$0.65) but have never been paid
that way. Just make sure you, the publisher and the author all agree on what
an 'entry' is.
On the question of the average rate - I believe the quoted amount is the
average in Australia. In KeyWords, July/Aug 1994, page 17, Garry Cousins of
AusSI says "the Society's recommended rate" is $32.50/hour. I take that to
be AusSI, not ASI. The Australian and Canadian dollars are roughly
equivalent, but not the USD. At the current exchange rate, AU$32.50 =
US$23.38. And of course, the economies and publishing industries are
different in each country. I can't recall ASI ever announcing an average or
recommended rate for U.S. indexers, but I've been a member for less than 2
years. Does IASC/SCAD have one?
The range seems to be quite wide, depending on whether you're indexing a
trade book and getting US$15-20/hour (which seems to be all the NY publishers
will pay, and which I think is too low) or a technical manual and getting
US$4.00/page and up.
Mary
--
* Mary Mortensen
* Madison, New Jersey
* marymort@aol.com
*
* "Wealth, I was discovering, is more accurately measured in what
* you enjoy than in what you possess." Jean Aspen, _Arctic Son_
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:26:18 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: JPerlman@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (P...
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Suzanne,
I don't think you'd spend 100 hours for a 500 page book. Most indexers who
do this for a living work much faster than that, unless the book is very
unusual, in which case you'd command much more than $2.50 per page. So ....
if you cut your time in half (I figure 10 pages per hour is my norm -
sometimes more), the index will be billed at $25/hr for 50 hr., which would
give you the same $1250 total.
If you are more of a beginning indexer, you will probably have a hard time
convincing a publishing house to pay you by the hour, because they will
suspect it may take you longer. They may be certain of your ability to
provide a good index, but the time spent may be suspect. They will probably
want to pay by the page or entry.
The per-entry rate is used in some disciplines more than in others, but it's
not unusual. Medical indexers are very frequently paid by the entry. The
price they quoted you is a fine price. I would say $0.50 per is lowballing
it, $0.65 to $0.75 is more like it, and $1.00 per entry is very nice.
I'm just getting done with a large index in an engineering field. Using the
number of entries I'll have, my $3/page is equivalent to $.65 per entry. I
usually cross check my rates that way, to keep a finger on the pulse of rates
no matter which way they're figured.
Good luck with your project!
Janet Perlman (jperlman@aol.com)
Southwest Indexing
PS - All due respects to ASI's figure, I don't know *anybody* who gets $32.50
per hour for indexing! Wish I did!!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:26:28 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: "Seth A. Maislin" <seth@ora.com>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II)
In-Reply-To: Suzanne Trottier <trotties@ERE.UMontreal.CA> "How do you
estimate... (Part II)" (Jul 12, 9:51am)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Suzanne Trottier (trotties@ERE.UMontreal.CA) said:
> Some people said that for a technical book of 500 pages I should estimate
> to spend 100 hours. So at $25/hour x 100 = $2500. Per indexable page, if
> the average rate is $2.50 the price will be only $1250. ... Is this right?
It's important to interpret these contradictions when they happen.
Although I prefer to stay away from "dollar-amount-per-index-entry"
figures (they inspire the indexer to over-index), this method -- and the above
two methods -- of estimating the monetary value of an index all should come out
about the same.
I end up doing some sort of balancing act between rates. Take the example
I quoted above. Since $25/hr sounds reasonable, think about raising the
per-page figure to get the totals to match. In fact, for a technical book I
think $2.50 could be low, so I might go as high as $4/page. For 500 pages
the new per-page total is $2000, which is still $500 lower than the hourly
rate. If you don't reconsider either the houly rate or the speed at which you
index (5 pp/hr was recommended, but I'd verify this with a sample of the text),
then maybe you should ask for $5/page, or a $2500 total.
There are those people who think that $5 will be too high (I sometimes do) --
but will then say (as I would) that $25/hr is not only appropriate but even
low! Let's settle this by adding the third method -- a per-entry rate of
$1/entry. Assuming that the book is has (on average) five entries per page,
for 500 pages you get a total of $2500. This tells me that our numbers are
right, and that $25/hr (at 5 pp/hr) and $5/page are valid rates. If the book
had only 4 entries per page (a $2000 total), lower the hourly figure to $20/hr,
raise the indexing speed to 8 pp/hr, lower the per-pate rate to $4/page, or
some combination of all of them.
This may sound horribly compilcated (and it is!), but after a while you start
to get the hang of thinking in all three modes at once. The advantage to
thinking in at least two of these rate modes is that you will catch yourself
from making big mistakes. For example, you might estimate a 100-page technical
manual at $4.50/page for $450 -- but find that there are at least 12 entries
per page when you see a sample (at $1 per entry = $1200). These ballpark
numbers should clue you in that you are either overcharging or undercharging.
- Seth Maislin
seth@ora.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:27:04 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Bookindexr@aol.com
Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Suzanne,
As has been mentioned, some publishers do price indexing on a per entry
basis. This is one of the standard methods, although I have not run into it
myself. According to the published ranges I have seen, the price quoted is
above average, *BUT* beware that the material or the definition of an entry
will make all the difference. Make sure you have reviewed the material and
know if they have any guidelines as to how heavly you must index, and agree
explicitly with the client in writing as to what an entry is and how they
will be counted when you deliver.
As to getting paid per page vs. per hour, your speed makes all the
difference. I would not put too much stock in a horseback estimate like 100
hours for a 500 page book, since an estimate needs to be based on a specific
review of the actual material to be indexed. FYI, my first book was about 120
pages and it took over a hundred hours. Just learning how, you know.
As to your example, for the page rate of $2.50 per page to yield the same
income as $25.00 per hour you need to be indexing at 10 pages per hour, by
simple arithmetic. Don't forget that the hours used to figure pages per hour
include ALL steps of preparing and delivering the index, including marking
entries, entering them, editing, proofing and printing the final copy in the
form the client wants. By the same arithmetic, once you are very experienced
and very fast, doing familiar material, you can raise your hourly income
beyond $25 per hour on such a book by working at a rate of more than 10 pages
per hour, and the client doesn't know the difference.
Another way of saying this is that a beginning indexer may find it very
difficult to produce income of $25.00 per hour due to the extra time involved
in learning and false starts, whereas a more experienced one can meet or
exceed this. If you can find a client willing to pay you this hourly rate for
your on-the-job training, more power to you. I would not hold your breath,
though.
Once again, good luck.
Larry Harrison
<Bookindexr@aol.com>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:27:22 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Edward Bedinger <ebeding@Gateway.Uswnvg.COM>
Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not?
In-Reply-To: <199507112344.QAA19523@gateway.uswnvg.com>
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Dwight Walker wrote:
> words in the header to identify the page.
>
> I just created the Sydney Linux Users Group pages:
>
> http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/SLUG/index.html
>
> Have a look at the source on Netscape | View. It is an interesting start to
> embedding subject entries right in the code.
Interesting. Are any of the browsers oriented to this?
I mean, if keywords were displayed when I browse a page it
might be useful. Is HTML Writer pushing the HTML envelope
by using non-standard (2.0, 3.0) HTML?
I think that the meta keyword fields would be easy to use
for the full-text indexer/crawler units that currently are
providing much of the search-databases for the 'net. Is this
what is envisioned as the uses of meta fields?
Regards.
Ned Bedinger
ebeding@uswnvg.com 'my views only, not my employers
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:29:31 ECT
Reply-To: LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Leonard Will <LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dedicated indexing programs
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
You wrote:
> I am now at that point in my indexing career where I am considering
> purchasing a dedicated indexing program, i.e., CINDEX/MACREX. I would
> appreciate hearing from those of you using such programs. I will compile
> the results and would be happy to share them with those interested
. . .
I would be very interested to see a copy of the results you receive
from this enquiry, either as a posting to INDEX-L or by e-mail to me.
Thanks very much.
Regards
Leonard Will
--
Dr Leonard D Will Tel: +44 181 372 0092
Information Management Consultant Fax: +44 181 372 0094
27 Calshot Way, ENFIELD, Middlesex Email: LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk
EN2 7BQ, United Kingdom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:02 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Elinor Lindheimer <elinorl@mcn.org>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Re Suzanne's additional questions:
We neglected to mention per-entry rates. The rates quoted, .75 to 1.00\index
entry, are very acceptable. I would say go for it! Most per-entry rates are
really per-line rates in the word-processed index, but even so, it comes to
the same as a per-page rate would be, just about. This way of pricing an
index accounts for density better than any other, as long as you are not
severely limited as to space. And the client doesn't have to face the
per-page rate actually being paid!
A per-page rate gives both client and indexer a firm knowledge of what
the index will cost, and requires the indexer to apportion number of entries
per page accordingly (which is why you have to see a sample). If on your
sample you are doing 10 pages per hour in entering terms, then allowing for
editing time, printing, shipping, billing, expenses, etc., you figure you
can net 5 to 7 pages per hour, you can base your quote on that. (If you want
to make $30 per hour on a 500-page book, and you net 5 pages per hour, that
would be $6 per page. Some clients can pay that much; many can't, so you
would have to limit your entries or enter faster, while maintaining quality.
Or you could avoid the issue by agreeing on a per-entry rate.)
I agree with those who think that $20 per hour is low. Remember you are
a professional, and you can expect to earn a professional wage.
Technical material should command higher rates--technical material in
any field. Technical-book publishers who pay $2.50 per page will have
trouble finding good indexers.
Sometimes you get lucky, and a job goes faster, so you make more per
hour than you expected. Sometimes you get unlucky, and the job goes slower.
It evens out in the end, we hope.
You can review the information on rates for indexing in INDEXING BOOKS
by Nancy Mulvany--it's a good general reference.
One more point: Suzanne is writing from Montreal. For information about
indexing in Canada, French-language indexing, etc., a wonderful source is
the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada/Societe canadienne pour
l'analyse de documents. This year's president is Christine Jacobs:
incj@musicb.mcgill.ca (What do we do when we don't want to put a
sentence-ending period at the end of an email address????)
Elinor Lindheimer
elinorl@mcn.org
Mendocino, CA
voice: (707) 937-1646
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:13 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Daveream@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dedicated indexing programs
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
The American Society of Indexers publishers an inexpensive Guide to Indexing
Software.
You may want to contact them at 512-749-4052 fax -6334 (Texas),
or e-mail: asi@well.sf.ca.us
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:27 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Alison Chipman <AChipman@aat.getty.edu>
Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not? -Reply
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
-----------------------Original message----------------------------
On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Ned Bedinger wrote in reply to Dwight Walker:
I think that the meta keyword fields would be easy to use
for the full-text indexer/crawler units that currently are
providing much of the search-databases for the 'net. Is this
what is envisioned as the uses of meta fields?
Embedding keywords at WWW sites, home pages, and any other Internet
"document" offers one means of getting a type of index entry attached
to them. But keyword searching without authority control at one end
or the other, i.e., by the parties assigning the keywords or by the
overall search engine through which search queries would be made,
notoriously causes false drops and poor recall. Keyword indexing of
the net would require something in addition, as for instance the
creation of a "megathesaurus" linking synonyms (rabbits and bunnies)
and variant spellings (mannequins and manikins), and distinguishing
among homographs (derbies (hats), derbies (shoes), and derbies (horse
races).then There are different dialects of English (British
searchers would search for "lorries" where American searchers would
search for "trucks"), and, to go international, multilingual
equivalencies to link. The technological work of creating such links
is probably less complex than the intellectual work of researching
and creating them.
So what should happen first? Let those distributing or "publishing"
on the Internet assign their keywords, hopefully by professional
indexers using at least a controlled vocabulary of their own, or
allow a free-for-all, for a time at least, and try to create a
thesaurus out of the body of keywords assigned? In practical terms,
probably a mix of both. You couldn't expect everyone to wait until
the megathesaurus was constructed, and compiling such a work would
require a body of pre-existing terms to start with. The idea is that
the linking of synonyms, variant spellings, etc. would mean no one
would have to change their keywords once assigned; the links would
allow searchers to retrieve for the correct concept or entity,
however spelt.
I can't off the top of my head begin to get into things like Boolean
searching and precoordination of indexing terms. I think all I have
to say boils down to this: indexing the Internet will call for
concerted thinking about the whole search system, in addition to the
assignment of index terms.
My $0.02 overspent,
Alison Chipman / achipman@aat.getty.edu
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:55 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: "C.JACOBS" <INCJ@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re[2]: How do you estimate your job?
In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:32:31 EDT
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Re: Canadian fees
Yes, Canadian fees would be in the vicinity of $25-$35 per hour (CDN);
probably higher for software companies. I usually try (and suggest to
others to do the same) to keep the fees in line with the freelance
editing/writing fees that are being paid in that discipline (hence
higher fees for technical indexing). Indexing is demanding intellectual
work (usually and ideally), and publishers should not expect to pay
the indexer less than they would the copy editor or the structure editor
. IASC does not have recommended rates at the moment, but it is an
area where we have to do cross-country research. Fees do vary by
location, as do editing fees. They seem to be somewhat contingent on the
number of publishers and the number of government agencies in a given
area (so, for example, fees are generally higher in Toronto and Ottawa
than in Montreal)
As a matter of interest, in thirteen years I have never had a publisher
or author query paying by the hour. I give an estimate that allows
some leeway, but I emphasize that I will charge for the time it takes
me. I have difficulty with the concept of charging by the page or the
entry. Material that is poorly written can take much longer to index,
as can some social science types of material (because the concepts are
difficult to reduce to terms). Although I suppose you could give
the publisher a different per/entry quote or per/page quote for every
book, it seems rather tedious when a simple per/hour rate will allow
for all contingencies. Another point to bear in mind, and that I think
the publisher should be aware of, is that the length of the index is
not the major determining factor in the cost of the index; it is the
length of the book and the complexity of the material. A short index
is not necessarily easy to create.
The discussion about making less because you work faster has also
come up at our local editors' meetings periodically. The general
consensus is that, in fact, you make more because you take on more
work, which makes sense. There is also no reason why you cannot choose
to charge a minimum amount, so that, for example, you do not create
an index for less than $250, even if the work takes only 8 hours.
There is a tendency for clients to think you index in your spare time
because they cannot picture this as a way of making a living. It is
up to us to insist that we be paid for the intellectual work, not
just the mechanics, and that we be treated as professionals who
have businesses to maintain. As freelancers we are responsible for all
own benefits such as health insurance, paid holidays, sick days..., and
the fact that billed time must take into account working time that
is not billable (eg: tax forms, accounting procedures, client phone
calls...). Whatever the fees, and however we choose to estimate them,
they should result in a reasonable living, comparable to a decently
paid editor, averaged out over reasonable working hours (ie: not 70
hours per week!).
Christine Jacobs
incj@musicb.mcgill.ca
Montreal
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:42:12 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Jonathan Jermey <jonathan@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hardware backups
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hmm. Interesting idea. I have a 286 PC at home that would function well as a
>DOS-based backup. My question is, how do you connect the two? What hardware and
>software are you using?
>John Overbaugh johno@spry.com
DOS 6 comes with a simple two-machine networking system called INTERLNK.
Both machines should be running DOS 6 and their comms ports are connected
with a standard cable (plus gender changer (?)). On startup using INTERLNK,
one machine then functions as a 'slave' and the drives on that machine
appear as additional drives to the user on the 'master' machine. The slave
machine can't be used for anything else while the program is running. A
little messy, but it works.
Jonathan
Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne
Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199
jonathan@magna.com.au
"From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:39:24 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: mgenuardi@mail.casi.sti.nasa.gov
Subject: Abstractor/Indexer Wanted - Scientific/Technical Literature
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
RMS Associates, a key NASA contractor located near BWI Airport (south
of Baltimore), seeks an individual to abstract/index the information
content of scientific and technical reports. Must possess a college
degree with courses in the physical sciences or engineering, a desire
to work in the information field; or equivalent experience in
abstracting/indexing scientific materials. Resume should indicate
writing and critical thinking skills. Send resume to Ms. Geri Hensel,
800 Elkridge Landing Road, Linthicum Heights, MD 21090-2934.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:40:51 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: JPerlman@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: How do you estimat...
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Christine Jacob's and Elinor Lindheimer's posts were right to the point,
folks. It's up to us to educate the business community as to why they should
pay us better, more professional rates for being in the business of doing the
difficult intellectual work of creating their indexes.
I find myself constantly explaining myself to publishers about being in
business, about how we indexers have administrative affairs, which take time,
do our own errands, purchasing, banking, etc. (business- related, I mean),
which take time, etc. We have to evaluate reference sources and software,
order them, make a trip to the library once in a while, or call an associate
who has a particular expertise to answer a technical question. We have to
evaluate advertising sources, make or review marketing plans, design logos
and letterhead and go to the printer, etc. All of this has to be factored
into what we're paid for our jobs, since they're non-billable hours but
definitely germane to the business. Our rates have to cover this time too,
so that *overall* we come out with a living wage, no -- a satisfying
professional salary. It's called factoring in your overhead!
Using a temporary (freelance) employee (and thus saving on benefits) is not a
good reason to underpay us, although that seems to be the prevalent thinking
in a lot of circles.
I'm afraid that many, many publishers do not consider us to be business
people. We're seen as people who have this odd avocation (notice the "a"),
with kind of a strange love for this esoteric art, which happens to provide
them with a product they need -- an index. I doubt that many in the
publishing world see us as "running a business", like any other business
owner. So, the more business- like our approach to indexing, and to rates,
the more we will be respected as professionals AND business-people, and the
better our pay rates will be, or at least the easier it will be to get
publishers to raise them.
Our job in asking for higher rates is to explain the rationale for them,
educating the publishing world about the realities discussed above. It's
something every indexer should be doing when talking to publishers.
Janet Perlman
(jperlman@aol.com)
Southwest Indexing
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 16:53:33 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: "Richard S. Day" <ricday@mbfw451.mlnet.com>
Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
On 13 July at 09:41, you wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
[big snip of interesting material]
> This year's president is Christine Jacobs:
> incj@musicb.mcgill.ca (What do we do when we don't want to put a
> sentence-ending period at the end of an email address????)
>
I would put it on a new line and indent it slightly:
This year's president is Christine Jacobs:
incj@musicb.mcgill.ca
(What do we do.... etc
Just a quick 0.02 cents worth.
Ric
--
------------------------------------------------*
MBF Systems Corporation
Lynnwood, WA and Vancouver, BC
email: support@mbfw451.mlnet.com
or: 70521,2167 (CompuServe)
451: Professional Electronic Documents
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 16:53:45 ECT
Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From: Lynn Moncrief <wyldfire@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Indexers as professionals (Was: How do you estimat...
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Janet brought up some excellent points about getting publishers to see
us as professionals and independent business owners.
Additional ways of getting our clients to view us as professionals
include letting them know when we attend conferences on indexing. When
a client calls to schedule something near the time of an ASI
conference, I always manage to let them know about it so that we can
schedule around it. It also informs them that, "Gee, indexing is really
a profession!" (and that you are staying on top of developments in your
profession). Do you have a line on your letterhead stating that you are
a member of a professional indexing society (e.g., ASI, AusSI, etc.)?
This is another subtle statement that indexing is more than just an
avocation to earn "pin money". When discussing indexing issues with
clients, referring to "standard indexing practices" or what is accepted
by "the indexing profession or community" subtly reinforces the
concept.
In terms of business issues, IMHO, frankness with clients when
something they want increases your overhead reminds them that you are
indeed an independent business owner. For example, when a client was
sending me a chapter a day and had me Fedexing out a chapter a day, I
let them know that this was horrendously increasing my overhead, time
being money. (They told me to charge them for an extra 75 pages.) This
was in addition to letting them know that this was having an awful
effect on the index itself. Over the years we worked together to
develop an indexing strategy that not only met their unusual needs but
permitted me to write better indexes for them.
Opportunities to reinforce the concepts of indexing as a profession and
indexers as business owners abound when you build a good relationship
with your clients, IMHO. These concepts do not have to be "forced" into
conversations but arise naturally. They also help to reassure clients
that their indexing projects are in capable hands and that as a
business owner you will do everything possible to meet their needs.
Just my $.02--or did that ring up to $.04? :-D
Lynn Moncrief
TECHindex & Docs
You wrote:
>
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>
>Christine Jacob's and Elinor Lindheimer's posts were right to the
point,
>folks. It's up to us to educate the business community as to why they
should
>pay us better, more professional rates for being in the business of
doing the
>difficult intellectual work of creating their indexes.
>
>I find myself constantly explaining myself to publishers about being
in
>business, about how we indexers have administrative affairs, which
take time,
>do our own errands, purchasing, banking, etc. (business- related, I
mean),
>which take time, etc. We have to evaluate reference sources and
software,
>order them, make a trip to the library once in a while, or call an
associate
>who has a particular expertise to answer a technical question. We
have to
>evaluate advertising sources, make or review marketing plans, design
logos
>and letterhead and go to the printer, etc. All of this has to be
factored
>into what we're paid for our jobs, since they're non-billable hours
but
>definitely germane to the business. Our rates have to cover this time
too,
>so that *overall* we come out with a living wage, no -- a satisfying
>professional salary. It's called factoring in your overhead!
>
>Using a temporary (freelance) employee (and thus saving on benefits)
is not a
>good reason to underpay us, although that seems to be the prevalent
thinking
>in a lot of circles.
>
>I'm afraid that many, many publishers do not consider us to be
business
>people. We're seen as people who have this odd avocation (notice the
"a"),
>with kind of a strange love for this esoteric art, which happens to
provide
>them with a product they need -- an index. I doubt that many in the
>publishing world see us as "running a business", like any other
business
>owner. So, the more business- like our approach to indexing, and to
rates,
>the more we will be respected as professionals AND business-people,
and the
>better our pay rates will be, or at least the easier it will be to get
>publishers to raise them.
>
>Our job in asking for higher rates is to explain the rationale for
them,
>educating the publishing world about the realities discussed above.
It's
>something every indexer should be doing when talking to publishers.
>
>Janet Perlman
>(jperlman@aol.com)
>Southwest Indexing
>