Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:36:31 ECT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From:         Linda Hill <lhill@Sti.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      Re: existing ANSI standard on indexing
In-Reply-To:  <9211202154.AA14800@nova.Sti.NASA.GOV> from "Rollie Littlewood .
              . ." at Nov 20, 92 02:14:48 pm

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I have just returned from the Coalition for Networked Information meeting
near Washington DC and heard Carl Malamud (I apologize if I have his name
wrong - I never saw it in print) make an impassioned and well supported
argument for having standards available to us online through the
Internet. All of us struggle to find them before we can use them. It is
a tremendous barrier to their use and that is what we are trying to
encourage, isn't it. Even after we find them, we may not be able to
afford them. Students, in particular, are often not able to study the
real standards, only to read about them. He knows that standards
organizations depend on the income provided by selling standards, but
points out that there is a major cost involved in printing and
distributing the standards which could be avoided, at least partly. He
suggests that the standards could be provided in ASCII online with
low-resolution graphic representation of the illustrations and that
high-resolution copies could continue to be sold; and that the
standards organizations can develop other income generating services or
raise their dues.

He cited the example of the set of Internet standards (RFCs, I think) that
are available, easily, through Internet and that are consequently used
extensively and in interesting ways. People carry them around with them
on their laptops. When a question comes up about what the standards say,
a quick search of the text can find the appropriate section and the
discussion can proceed WITH the needed information rather than without it.
Standards are so hard to put your hands on, that decisions are often made
WITHOUT consulting them. A sad state of affairs!

The recent discussion here about getting a copy of the existing indexing
standard brings the need for better access to standards to our attention.
I would like to see some action to bring about access to online copies of
the NISO standards in particular. If we need a study to deal with the
ramifications of this, let's get started on it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:41:58 ECT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was
              cweaver@CARSON.U.WASHINGTON.EDU
From:         Carolyn Weaver <cweaver@u.washington.edu>
Subject:      Definition of index "line"

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Perhaps I'm unusually dense; but can somebody please give a standard
definition for a "line" of indexing? I was recently asked to quote a
rate for a job based on cost per line, and haven't the foggiest notion of
how to reply!

If an entry has a main heading and two levels of subheadings, is that one
line or three? What if the same heading/subheading combo has page references
from 3 different locations in the document (which each were indexed
separately)? Does it make a difference if it's indented or run-in? etc., etc.

I can easily calculate rates by the hour, the page, or the job; but lines
have me stumped!

Carolyn Weaver
Univ. Washington Health Sciences Library
SB-55
SEattle, Wa.  98195
cweaver@u.washington.edu.   voice: (206) 543-3401
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:59:23 ECT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From:         Carolyn Embach <cembach@TUblue.pa.utulsa.edu>
Subject:      Re: Susanne Humphrey article on Indexing
In-Reply-To:  <9211210010.AA01783@TUblue.pa.utulsa.edu>; from
              "@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET" at Nov 20, 92 3:01 pm

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I would like to comment on issues related to automatic vs. manual
indexing from the indexer's point of view and from the database
producer environment. Petroleum Abstracts indexes "manually" (that is,
individual indexers who are subject specialists do select and assign
subject terms). In the sense that most terms assigned also generate
"auto-posted" broad subject terms, we also have an element of automatic
indexing. However, our databases (TULSA and ERTH) are searchable using
ALL words contained in the bibliographic citation, plus the abstract,
plus the index words. This production method assures that searchers can
find materials they need using assigned or autoposted index terms OR
free-text terminology. The manual indexing assures that concepts that
are not virtually present in the bibliographic citation or abstract
are included in the searchable terminology. The autoposting of broad
subject terms from assigned terms assures that specifically related
terms are added to the index in an efficient manner. We are considering
expanding the use of automatic indexing, but have become aware of
several problem areas.

Carolyn Embach, Petroleum Abstracts, The University of Tulsa
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1992 13:23:13 ECT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From:         "Kate McCain" <MCCAINKW@DUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: existing ANSI standard on indexing
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:36:31 ECT from <lhill@Sti.NASA.GOV>

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I would like to second Linda Hill's call for access to standards. Indeed, I
have kvetched about this very publicly on ASIS-L in the context of making
professionally-related copyrighted information available to my students at
reasonable cost. My main concern was Wiley wanting to assess copyright charges
(for the first time) for distribution of two old articles from our
professional society journal (JASIS) as part of the readings for my A&I
class -- when ALA & SLA don't charge for reproduction for educational purposes.

I naively thought, when I started teaching, that ANSI standards were somehow
"govt pubs" and therefore not subject to copyright royalties. I soon found
out differently.  But how can you teach serials without teaching the NISO
standards on serials holding statements (or library automation for that matter)
and how can you teach A&I without teaching the current AND new "draft"
standards for indexing, thesauri, etc and then there is sci-tech...

I really do think that there needs to be some accomodation made for educating
the next generation of professionals. I'm not in a position to comment on
meeting the needs of information professionals in practice-- you all know
more about your situation than I do -- living and working in a setting
where I have access to the ANSI/NISO standards in hard copy, the Standards
database and ASTM just a mile down the road.  But $30 a copy is a lot when
you're a student paying high tuition anyway.


Kate McCain                          bibliometrics R us
Associate Professor
College of Information Studies
Drexel University
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1992 13:24:57 ECT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
From:         Carolyn Kidder <carolyn@mayberry.cray.com>
Subject:      Re: Susanne Humphrey article on Indexing

----------------------------Original message----------------------------


----- Begin Included Message -----

From: Carolyn Embach <cembach@TUblue.pa.utulsa.edu>
Subject:      Re: Susanne Humphrey article on Indexing
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
....We are considering expanding the use of automatic indexing, but
have become aware of several problem areas.

Carolyn Embach, Petroleum Abstracts, The University of Tulsa


----- End Included Message -----
Carolyn,

I am particularly interested in finding out what tools you are using
for your automatic indexing, and also what problem areas you've become
aware of.

Carolyn Kidder, Cray Research, Inc.
=========================================================================