Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9905E" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 06:59:55 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Griffiths Subject: Re: Indexing courses comparison -----Original Message----- From: danna To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: 27 May 1999 22:22 Subject: Indexing courses comparison >Hello! > >My name is Theresa, and I am new to this list, as well as to indexing. >I currently work fulltime as a proofreader/editor at an ad agency in the >Los Angeles area. > >I would like to take a course in indexing so that I can do that on a >freelance basis in the future, but I am not sure which course is better: >the USDA basic course or the one offered by Ann Hall in Scotland. Does >anyone on the list have experience with both of them? If so, will you >please give a brief comparison/contrast? > >Thank you. > >Theresa >http://home.earthlink.net/~prewombpsi > I have just completed Ann Hall's course, and I found it extremely good. Ann (Griffiths) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:23:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ed Wood Subject: Re: Your government at work The original title of the message that resulted in various diabtribes, helpful suggestions, and experiences, was titled "Your government at work". I can't comment on the various diatribes, suggestions and experiences, but I would like to point out that the United States Postal Service (USPS) is not, repeat not a government agency. Years ago, in the era of "private is better", it was converted to a quasi-independent corporation, as was several other agencies. As a result, it is not subject to many of the same regulations or checks and balances as government agencies, and in fact, is similar to businesses ranging from Fortune 500 corporations to Woodpile Enterprises, of which my spouse and I are sole proprieters. Any votes to do the same with the FAA? Ed Wood Woodpile Enterprises "Often in Error, Never in Doubt." ---------- From: Richard Evans[SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:52 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Your government at work Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail service (MailBoxes, Etc.) Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will have to: - Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID. - Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box number in my address. If I do not begin using the PMB designation by October 26, the USPS will no longer deliver mail to MBE. I understand that the intent of this is to cut down on the fraudulent use of mail drops, but to conform to the use of the PMB designation means reprinting all of my business cards, letter head, envelopes and mailing labels at a cost of several hundred dollars. I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS regulation and they could not give me one. They said they would call back. Anyone got any more dope on this? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:19:22 -0000 Reply-To: Christine Shuttleworth Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Your government at work Ed Wood wrote: And I would like to point out gently that the heading 'Your government at work' was not altogether appropriate for another reason. The US government is not my government. I have no objection to reading about indexing practices and conditions for indexers in the United States, as such, but could subscribers to this list bear in mind that this is an international list? Christine ************************************************************ Christine Shuttleworth, Indexing & Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB cshuttle@dircon.co.uk ************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:56:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Your government at work In-Reply-To: <199905290354.rkv78p.fpj.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 08:19 AM 5/29/99 +0000, you wrote: >Ed Wood wrote: > >not, repeat not a government agency. > >And I would like to point out gently that the heading 'Your government at >work' was not altogether appropriate for another reason. The US government >is not my government. I have no objection to reading about indexing >practices and conditions for indexers in the United States, as such, but >could subscribers to this list bear in mind that this is an international >list? In a previous incarnation as a corporate drone, it was not uncommon to be making a presentation about an important topic and find that one or more members of the audience insisted on quibbling about trivial and tangential aspects of the presentation while ignoring the message being delivered. My stock answer was "Stop biting my finger and look where I'm pointing." Parallels to the current discussion are left as an exercise for the reader. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:19:09 -0000 Reply-To: Christine Shuttleworth Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Your government at work Richard Evans wrote in response to a comment from me: <>And I would like to point out gently that the heading 'Your government at >work' was not altogether appropriate for another reason. The US government >is not my government. I have no objection to reading about indexing >practices and conditions for indexers in the United States, as such, but >could subscribers to this list bear in mind that this is an international >list? Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Towle Costa Subject: Re: Your Government at Work Hello from a lurker... Might we all be able to "turn the other cheek" about this and redirect to the subject and substance of indexing and the indexing business? I feel uncomfortable with the personal direction this thread has taken. I'm sure we all are here to learn from and assist each other in our chosen career/interest. I enjoy and benefit greatly from all your input as a novice indexer. Thank you to the Listmembers for keeping list postings directed to us all. Have a great weekend all and, for whom it applies, Happy Memorial Day! Cordially, Karen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 14:21:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Renaissance Titles Dear Collective, Thank all of you who responded so quickly to my previous query regarding alphabetization of Latin/Roman book titles. You've been extremely helpful. And in that vein: I am STILL working on the Renaissance project whose focus is on anatomy (public dissection in particular). Also please note this has been translated from Italian. All references to book titles in the text are italicized with ONLY the first letter of the first word capitalized. Obviously I've seen this capitalization method in the bibliography, but I've never seen it in the text of a book. My question is this - do I enter the titles in the index the same as it is in the text (i.e., cap only the first word in title) or do I capitalize the first letter of all the words as is customary)? Have any of you ever seen this before? Are there any guidelines regarding this which I have not been clever enough to find or some indexing "convention" of which I am unaware. Again, thanks for all your wonderful help. I find myself lamenting that presently, I am so overwhelmed with work that I am unable to contribute to this list in a manner which reflects the quality of information contributed by others. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:44:05 +0200 Reply-To: Louise Ferguson Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Louise Ferguson Subject: indexing for editors The University of Barcelona is *considering* adding a course in indexing to its MA programme Managing English Texts. The course is aimed at people who want to work in English-language publishing, principally in editing functions. I'd be interested to know if any of you had any views on what *essentials* editors ought to know about indexing. The students have absolutely no prior knowledge of the subject, and with the number of hours that are likely to available, only a bare introduction will be possible I think. I was thinking along the lines of (a) *awareness* of the issues (with a critical look at good and bad indexes), (b) hiring indexers, and (c) index assessment, but I'd be interested in other views/ideas. No hours yet assigned, but the course is split into 9-hour teaching modules. Thanks Louise Ferguson lferguson@mx3.redestb.es ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 07:44:32 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Indexing endnotes Many thanks to all of you who responded to my query (Alan Walker, Craig Brown, Shirley Warkentin, Kara Pekar, Michael Brackney, Lillian Ashworth). In the light of the discussion I have adopted the form "409-10n.36" where an endnote begins on one page and finishes on another and the indexable matter appears on both pages, but the form "410n.36" where the indexable matter appears on p. 410 although the note begins on p. 409. (I agree that readers can be trusted to understand that the note above n. 37 on p. 410 must be n. 36.) The other problem I mentioned -- about the ambiguity of "325n.3" if more than one n.3 appears on p. 325 -- doesn't arise in my current job, but I agree again that a form like, say, "325ch.4n.3" or perhaps "325 (ch.4 n.3)" may be a little clearer than the form I adopted, "325n.3 (ch.4)". However, my style does preserve the standard note form "325n.3" with the explanatory qualifier "(ch.4)" being added only if needed. Probably next time I shall adopt Michael Brackney's sensible suggestion of closing it all up, like this: "325n.3(ch.4)". The more compressed forms, e.g. "325n4:3", might be advisable in some circumstances, but in the cases I am familiar with -- where the problem only arises two or three times in any one book -- I prefer the greater clarity achievable by using a few extra characters. Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:53:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Renaissance Titles Remember, there are no rules, only contexts (Leise's first rule of indexing). And in a matter of style such as this, it is usual to follow the publisher's or the specific book's house style. So if the book uses lower case titles (except for the first word), then that is what should be reflected in the index. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated 99-05-29 14:23:28 EDT, juliesg@ix.netcom.com writes: > I am STILL working on the Renaissance project whose focus is on > anatomy (public dissection in particular). Also please note this has > been translated from Italian. All references to book titles in the > text are italicized with ONLY the first letter of the first word > capitalized. Obviously I've seen this capitalization method in the > bibliography, but I've never seen it in the text of a book. My > question is this - do I enter the titles in the index the same as it > is in the text (i.e., cap only the first word in title) or do I > capitalize the first letter of all the words as is customary)? Have > any of you ever seen this before? Are there any guidelines regarding > this which I have not been clever enough to find or some indexing > "convention" of which I am unaware. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 07:14:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: Re: Renaissance titles Hey Julie, I believe the practice of presenting titles with only the first letter capped (aside from word which require them like place names), is a library cataloging practice. I haven't worked as a public librarian in a looong time, but to follow my hunch that this might be the source, I checked a recent book for the cataloging-in-print and there it was -- all lower case except for the above mentioned instances. I think anyone influenced by this practice might find it to be the "way to do it" just as much as the convention for capping the most important word. I did a book last year that was an overview of cross-cultural children's literature which included a whole slew of book titles. I tended toward the non-capped style. But as Fred points out -- context is important in indexing -- I checked with the editor who wanted it just like the book -- with the important words capped. I'd had my ex-librarian's hat on, not my indexer's hat. Perhaps your author has been influenced by the Anglo American Cataloging Rules... Deborah ============================= Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:31:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Renaissance titles Dear All, (Sylvia, Martha, Fred and Deborah in particular) Thanks so much for the quick response on the Renaissance titles issue. What's even more spectacular is that EVERYONE WAS IN AGREEMENT. What a wonderful resource this list is! Best to all and hope everyone is enjoying the long weekend ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 16:38:31 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Lightfoot Subject: Re: indexing for editors In-Reply-To: <199905291841.TAA22480@klingon.netkonect.co.uk> The Society of Indexers publishes a booklet called: Last but not least: A Guide for Editors Commissioning Indexes. For more information send an email to Society of Indexers Sue Lightfoot >The University of Barcelona is *considering* adding a >course in indexing to its MA programme Managing English >Texts. The course is aimed at people who want to work >in English-language publishing, principally in editing >functions. > >I'd be interested to know if any of you had any views >on what *essentials* editors ought to know about indexing. >The students have absolutely no prior knowledge of the >subject, and with the number of hours that are likely >to available, only a bare introduction will be possible >I think. I was thinking along the lines of (a) *awareness* of >the issues (with a critical look at good and bad indexes), >(b) hiring indexers, and (c) index assessment, but I'd be >interested in other views/ideas. > >No hours yet assigned, but the course is split into 9-hour >teaching modules. > >Thanks >Louise Ferguson >lferguson@mx3.redestb.es -------------------------- Sue Lightfoot - Indexer, Proofreader Polperro, Cornwall, England email: slightfoot@macace.co.uk -------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:16:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Soo Subject: Re: Your government at work You are all looking at this from the box owner's point of view. You are also being screwed when you make a contract with the USPS by paying for and putting first class postage on your item. If your first class item is going to a PMB, it is not going to be forwarded or returned to you as undeliverable according to the contract you entered into with the USPS when you bought the first class stamp. And it can take 6 months for you to find out that your mail didn't go where it was supposed to. The PMB business has to store this stuff, or pay an additional first class postage to forward or return the item. Where is the ACLU when you need them? If you are going to complain, do it to your elected representatives, all of them, and from the viewpoint of the injured postage buyer. Mostly this is a ploy by the USPS to make people buy postal boxes at the Post Office, they need the revenue. USPS is also being hammered in the market place by UPS and FED-EX. What a wonderful way to put your competition out of business, and from behind a badge, at that. Why don't they open up sites of their own or develop and sell franchises in shopping centers, etc. Joan Soo Richard Evans wrote: > Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail > service (MailBoxes, Etc.) > > Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will > have to: > > - Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID. > - Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box > number in my address. > > If I do not begin using the PMB designation by October 26, the USPS will no > longer deliver mail to MBE. > > I understand that the intent of this is to cut down on the fraudulent use > of mail drops, but to conform to the use of the PMB designation means > reprinting all of my business cards, letter head, envelopes and mailing > labels at a cost of several hundred dollars. > > I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS > regulation and they could not give me one. They said they would call back. > > Anyone got any more dope on this? > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Renaissance Titles In-Reply-To: <199905300413.XAA06362@a.mx.execpc.com> All references to book titles in the >text are italicized with ONLY the first letter of the first word >capitalized. Obviously I've seen this capitalization method in the >bibliography, but I've never seen it in the text of a book. My >question is this - do I enter the titles in the index the same as it >is in the text (i.e., cap only the first word in title) or do I >capitalize the first letter of all the words as is customary)? Have >any of you ever seen this before? Are there any guidelines regarding >this which I have not been clever enough to find or some indexing >"convention" of which I am unaware. Conventions aside, I would follow the style of the text. But since you asked about conventions, that style is fairly common for foreign titles, even within the text. I don't have as much experience with Latin titles, but I've seen this style ("sentence style") used more often for French, German, Spanish, and Italian titles (except that in German titles, the nouns are also capped) than the English convention is. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:09:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judy Young Subject: journal indexing I'm still a library student but my interest in indexing brought me to this discussion group. This is my first input of any kind so bear with me. I have a friend who is Native American and she has been asked by a Native American journal to assist in indexing a couple of years of journals. The drawback is she has not taken an indexing course yet even though she has earned her Masters in Library Science. Is there any advice anyone can give about journal indexing? She would appreciate anything. I've read the recent threads on periodical indexing. How would anyone go about getting a crash course on this type of indexing (books, etc.)? I took an indexing class and will be giving here whatever information I have. Many thanks in advance...anything is appreciated. Judy Young ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:20:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Renaissance Titles Julie, In a message dated 99-05-29 14:23:24 EDT, you write: << the titles in the index the same as it is in the text (i.e., cap only the first word in title) or do I capitalize the first letter of all the words as is customary)? Have any of you ever seen this before? >> It is common in library cataloging to do this and, as I recall, required. I also believe that using a text mixture of cases or not, or italics or bold or underline, etc, is a choice that merely has to be consistent throughout a given work. Making typographic distinctions probably is ordained by discipline, but where no guidelines exist, just follow the text. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:22:24 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Renaissance Titles In-Reply-To: Librarians use minimal capitalisation, so I don't find this strange at all. If italics are used, full capitalisation seems redundant, and current trends are towards minimal capitalisation. So I agree with Fred, just follow the house style. Glenda. > Remember, there are no rules, only contexts (Leise's first rule > of indexing). > And in a matter of style such as this, it is usual to follow the > publisher's > or the specific book's house style. So if the book uses lower case titles > (except for the first word), then that is what should be reflected in the > index. > > Fred Leise > Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > > > In a message dated 99-05-29 14:23:28 EDT, juliesg@ix.netcom.com writes: > > > I am STILL working on the Renaissance project whose focus is on > > anatomy (public dissection in particular). Also please note this has > > been translated from Italian. All references to book titles in the > > text are italicized with ONLY the first letter of the first word > > capitalized. Obviously I've seen this capitalization method in the > > bibliography, but I've never seen it in the text of a book. My > > question is this - do I enter the titles in the index the same as it > > is in the text (i.e., cap only the first word in title) or do I > > capitalize the first letter of all the words as is customary)? Have > > any of you ever seen this before? Are there any guidelines regarding > > this which I have not been clever enough to find or some indexing > > "convention" of which I am unaware. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 03:31:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Indexing for Editors Louise Ferguson asked: "I'd be interested to know if any of you had any views on what *essentials* editors ought to know about indexing." I teach courses in indexing for editors at two colleges in Sydney, Australia. First I tell them why they need to hire a professional indexer :-) and how to choose one. Then I teach them the rudiments of indexing, in order to be able to evaluate and (if necessary) edit an index. We look at how to write a brief for an indexer, and to compile a style sheet. Finally we look at some real live published indexes and critique them. Louise, if you like to contact me offlist, I'm happy to snailmail you a copy of the workbook we use in class, or else email you a PDF file. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 04:50:08 +0200 Reply-To: Louise Ferguson Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Louise Ferguson Subject: Indexing for editors course A big thank you to all the people who have given their advice on this, particularly Michael Wyatt, Craig Brown, Sue Lightfoot and Kari Kells. The University of Barcelona have confirmed to me this morning that they will run 2x 10-hour indexing modules on the MA Managing English Texts from autumn 1999. This will be a wonderful opportunity to spread the indexing habit (or is it gospel) here in Spain. I shall now have to spend a little time mapping out course content and gathering materials. The contribution from list members has been invaluable. Louise Ferguson Barcelona lferguson@mx3.redestb.es ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:41:54 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Juliana Dotsenko Subject: Legal editing work I've subscribed to Index-L for the past year. In browsing through the messages, I've noticed that quite a few indexers also do editing and/or proofreading work. I have several questions for anyone who is familiar with the market for editing and/or proofreading law books. I'm one more more attorney who prefers working at home to practicing law. Although I've had a fairly interesting part-time legal job that has permitted me to work primarily from home for the past four years, I'd like to move on to a different type of law-related work. Consequently, I decided I would learn how to index, and that I would specialize in indexing law books. So, after completing approximately one-half of the USDA's course on Indexing and reviewing Susan Holbert's instructional videos, I've concluded that I'm more interested (and probably much more adept) at editing law books rather than indexing them. I have about three years of non-legal editing experience. My main question is my likelihood of securing editing and/or proofreading work from publishers of law books. My next question is how to proceed with obtaining this type of work; i.e., should I simply do a mass mailing to legal publishers, or is cold calling more successful? Any advice would be appreciated. Juliana _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:06:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: Legal editing work Hi, Juliana! I'm a lawyer-turned-indexer who also does some legal editing work. Basically, I taught myself a lot about copyediting using Karen Judd's Copyediting: A Practical Guide. Then I freelanced before law school for Harcourt Brace in Orlando, FL. There I worked on educational materials, mostly readers and teachers manuals. I did a little copyediting in law school and decided afterwards to try to get more freelance gigs, as by then I was at home with a baby. I used Literary Marketplace in my library. I believe I did a geographical search, concentrating on publishers in the NC/VA area. I took some tests, and most of the contacts went nowhere. But I managed to get on with a university press and have worked for them sporadically over the past 7 years. EEI in Alexandria, VA, offers good 2- and 3-day training programs in copyediting and proofreading. So does the University of VA's extension campus in the DC area. Check local university continuing education departments. Also, you can order the books from EEI and teach yourself. The proofreading book is especially good though I can't think of the name at the moment. My favorite legal editing jobs are working on footnotes and endnotes. I'm really good with the Bluebook and you don't have to dance around tender author egos when you're working with the citations. Either they're right or they're wrong!!! :-) Bonnie Taylor << My main question is my likelihood of securing editing and/or proofreading work from publishers of law books. My next question is how to proceed with obtaining this type of work; i.e., should I simply do a mass mailing to legal publishers, or is cold calling more successful? Any advice would be appreciated. >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:16:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Legal editing work In a message dated 5/31/99 1:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bonald@AOL.COM writes: << EEI in Alexandria, VA, offers good 2- and 3-day training programs in copyediting and proofreading. So does the University of VA's extension campus in the DC area. Check local university continuing education departments. Also, you can order the books from EEI and teach yourself. The proofreading book is especially good though I can't think of the name at the moment. >> Hi Bonnie; To be more specific--what and where is: EEI and The Univeristy of VA.'s extension program? Thanks; Patrick De Prisco. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:42:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ife Clarke Subject: Unsub? Could someone please tell me how to unsubscribe. I have sent three messages to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET and all of them have been returned. Has there been some change? I also tried the LISTSERV one that ends with Binghamton.edu. What is up? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:47:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Y2K Doomsday List Delayed Hello, all-- You may recall that last year I was bragging about a Y2K resources Doomsday List that I had planned to have ready by January. I was wrong. I actually had TWO related projects going -- a bookmark and a printed version to be distributed to my friends as well as to local interested groups. Both became hopelessly bogged down. As we speak, I have just finished the bookmark version which will be available for download. Those of you who would like a copy please send me a note offlist; I will do a group mailing around 15 June. The file is 35KB long and has been virus-checked. Since they were "already there" while I was editing the file I retained a couple of other items that might be useful: software download sites, libararies, like that. Cheers, Dave T. 75711.1537@compuserve.com