Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9905D" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:03:03 -0700 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: indexing biographies Hi All, I remember reading about a guidebook to indexing biographies, but I can't find the title. Can someone please help me. I looked at Information Today and the ASI website and my saved messages. Thanks, Kathy Paparchontis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:34:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: TEMPORARY INDEXING/ABSTRACTING POSITION AVAILABLE DO NOT HIT REPLY....Anyone interested please contact Brenda Kelly at kelly@cidr.washington.edu. Please do not reply to me or to the list. Thanks! >TEMPORARY INDEXING/ABSTRACTING POSITION AVAILABLE > >The Center for Instructional Development and Research at the University of >Washington is seeking a temporary indexer/abstractor from Summer Quarter >1999 through Spring Quarter 2000. > >This position is a part of a research team led by Dr. Jody Nyquist which >is attempting to help answer the question, "How can we re-envision the >Ph.D. to meet the needs of society in the 21st Century?" > >The position's duties include obtaining, classifying, abstracting, and >indexing documents related to trends, programs, and practices in doctoral >education. These documents include articles from journals and newspapers, >web sites, reports, books, etc. The indexer will also help maintain a web >site to facilitate interaction between the many shareholders in the >enterprise. Eventually, a searchable database of abstracts and other data >will be posted on this web site. > >The indexer/abstractor needs basic skills in indexing and abstracting as >well as some web site construction experience. Experience working with >searchable databases is highly desirable but not required. > >The position is 20 hours a week, and salary is negotiable. > >Please send a resume and cover letter to: > >Brenda Kelly, Manager, Administrative Services >e-mail: kelly@cidr.washington.edu >Center for Instructional Development and Research >396 Bagley Hall >Box 351725 >Seattle, WA 98195-1725 > >Or call Brenda Kelly at (206) 543-6588. > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:04:27 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: indexing biographies Kathy Paparchontis wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael L. Olason" Subject: Re: Cindex Extended Characters Helen and Sylvia, I posted a reply to your message to the Cindex list rather than Index-L, sorry. I discovered the same extended character problem early last year when I upgraded my computer. David summed up the problem: Dos Cindex uses ASCII extended characters, Windows uses ANSI characters. Here is what I do, and it works. Use DOS Cindex as you have been doing, enter the DOS/ASCII extended characters, that way you still can take advantage of Cindex's capabilities for sorting and your index will look correct on screen. Save the Cindex file as RTF. Open the Cindex RTF file in an older version of Word, I use Word 2.0. Save the file in Word 2.0, Not Save AS, just Save. Close Word 2.0. Open the file in your newer version of Word and the extended characters will read OK. I have no idea why this works, but it does (grin). Hope this helps...Susan Olason ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 16:18:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Cindex spell check freezes I have been running Cindex 6.1 for DOS on a 486 with 4 megs of RAM for at least 20 indexes and suddenly I have a new problem. Till now, whether the index was long or short, I have been able to run the spell check. Now it doesn't get any further than the second or third word it doesn't recognize and the whole program freezes. I have to reboot. I have tried spell checking only a section of the index but that doesn't work either. I have tried going back and spell checking old indexes that were no problem before and Cindex still freezes after the second or third word. I have not added any new programs nor changed any settings. I would very much appreciate a solution. The only one I have found is to import the index into WordPerfect and use the WP spell check. Thanks very much, Linda Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Cindex spell check freezes In-Reply-To: <199905221754.rke9t7.idk.37kbi17.1@mx9.mindspring.com> At 04:18 PM 5/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >Till now, whether the index was long or short, I have been able to run the >spell check. Now it doesn't get any further than the second or third word it >doesn't recognize and the whole program freezes. I have to reboot. How big is your user dictionary? I used to have this problem when the user dictionary neared 1,000 entries. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 19:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Cindex spell check freezes At 04:18 PM 5/22/99 -0400, Cournoyer wrote: >I have been running Cindex 6.1 for DOS on a 486 with 4 megs of RAM for at >least 20 indexes and suddenly I have a new problem. > >Till now, whether the index was long or short, I have been able to run the >spell check. Now it doesn't get any further than the second or third word it >doesn't recognize and the whole program freezes. I have to reboot. >Thanks very much, >Linda Cournoyer When I used CINDEX 6.1, I had the same problem. I got into the habit of spellchecking in Word 97 then, because it was faster. I still do this even though I now use CINDEX for Windows. I just bring the index into Word 97 and scroll down and look at the red underlined words. It is faster to do this, because most of my indexes contain large numbers of personal names that stop the Word (and CINDEX) spellchecker. This way, all I have to do is look for "normal" words that are underlined. I also have Stedman's Medical Spellchecker which works at the same time that the Word 97 spellchecker is working (I think they work together!). For me, the Stedman's spellchecker is more accurate than the medical spellchecker sold by CINDEX (which I also have). I then go back into CINDEX and fix any errors, so that the CINDEX master, .dat, and .arc copies are clean, too. I just wish my e-mail program had a spellchecker! Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Cookbooks, Food History, Nutrition, and Food Writing a Specialty cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael L. Olason" Subject: Re: Cindex Spellcheck freezes Linda, I had the same problem a few years ago and Maria Sullivan Young gave me some great suggestions. What has probably happened (as Dick pointed out in his post) is that your User Dictionary has gotten really big. Create a new User Dictionary using Set Spell command. You may want to create different User Dictionaries for each subject area that you index in. Also, if you are adding a lot of new terms to your User Dictionary...periodically Stop the Spell (use Esc key), Close your index, and Exit Cindex (this clears out memory), then go back into Cindex and continue. Susan Olason ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:38:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Weiss Subject: Re: Cindex spell check freezes I had the same problem with Cindex 6.1 for DOS. The problem occurred only when I was doing the spell check for a file that included numbers within parentheses. When I mentioned this to Indexing Research, I was told that other customers had encountered this problem. I have not had this experience with Cindex for Windows. Sue Weiss Cournoyer on 05/22/99 04:18:54 PM Please respond to Indexer's Discussion Group To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L cc: Subject: Cindex spell check freezes I have been running Cindex 6.1 for DOS on a 486 with 4 megs of RAM for at least 20 indexes and suddenly I have a new problem. Till now, whether the index was long or short, I have been able to run the spell check. Now it doesn't get any further than the second or third word it doesn't recognize and the whole program freezes. I have to reboot. I have tried spell checking only a section of the index but that doesn't work either. I have tried going back and spell checking old indexes that were no problem before and Cindex still freezes after the second or third word. I have not added any new programs nor changed any settings. I would very much appreciate a solution. The only one I have found is to import the index into WordPerfect and use the WP spell check. Thanks very much, Linda Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Re: Cindex Spellcheck freezes Thank you to Dick Evans, Cynthia Bertelsen, and Susan Olason. The problem was in fact a full user dictionary. I've created a second one and I can now check my spelling. It's so wonderful to have access to knowledgeable people who are willing to come to your rescue! Thanks again. Cynthia, what e-mail program are you using that doesn't have a spellchecker? Outlook Express doesn't have its own dictionary, but it uses the one in Word (if you have that program installed). Linda cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 11:39:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: TEMPORARY INDEXING/ABSTRACTING POSITION AVAILABLE To all ASIers: I have a suggestion. From now on, when one of you puts a job listing on the listserv, could you please indicate or find out whether the job is on-site or off-site? That would help determine whether we should respond. Thanks. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President P.O. Box 3529 Saint Louis, MO 63143-3529 314.726.0288 fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:28:19 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PCONNOLLY Subject: Irish language indexing practice Can anyone point me in the direction of guidelines for indexing in the Irish language, please? Our report has to be bilingual (English/Irish). We have had the text and index translated, but I am very hazy about the order of index entries in Irish, especially where the inversion of words in an entry affects the spelling of those words. I'm OK on the grammatical side, it's just the ordering and consequent changes of spelling that are bothering me! Thanks, Phil *************************** pconnolly@nationalarchives.ie National Archives Bishop Street Dublin 8 Ireland Phone: +353-1-4072 300 Fax: +353-1-4072 333 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:40:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melissa Bodeau Subject: mention of indexing in book review In one of my other lives, I occasionally review books for the BookBrowser site (which a great site). When I found a good index, I made sure I noted it in the review! A big "atta-person" to the indexer - hope they're on this list. http://www.bookbrowser.com/Reviews/CavelosJeanne/SciStarWars.html MJB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Re: Cindex spell check freezes Susan, Thanks for the tip about numbers in parentheses. I checked this particular index and there are none but I will keep this tip in mind. Linda cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:08:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Rates for proofreading? Hello all! I need advice from the collective wisdom again. I've been offered a proofreading job for several textbooks, and I have no idea what to charge. The material is intended for school-age children, and heavy editing is not expected. Is there anyone who can offer advice? I appreciate it in advance! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:29:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Need for online help indexer Please reply directly to marya_ryan-novanet@nova.novanet.com directly; do not reply to the list. I'm looking for a free-lance indexer who would be interested in indexing an online help project I'm working on. The need for a consultant arose recently, and the project is on a tight timeline. I am looking for someone who would be available to start on the project right away--if such a person is to be found! I appreciate any leads! Marya Ryan NovaNET Learning 125 W. Church, Suite 300 Champaign, IL 61820 mryan@nn.com 217-378-7304 x314 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:20:23 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Need for online help indexer Just an additional note about the NovaNet project. They are looking for someone who can index using RoboHelp, I think. It is on online HELP project.... Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:18:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: [CE-L] QUERY: Word division In-Reply-To: Laura's rules are the rules I learned (divide *after* single-letter syllable. But, I know of no publisher or typesetter who wants to follow that rule. I find that hyphen stacks of 3-in-a-row are acceptable. I pity the readers. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Castro, David" Subject: How users use HTML Help indexes? This is my first time posting. I looked around to see if there was an archive for this listserv, but didn't find one. If this topic has been discussed in the past, and there is an archive, I'd really love to get a pointer to it. So, I have this index in a compiled HTML Help (*.chm) file, which frequently goes to three levels. An example is: Model Editor triple sequence changing The thing about HTML Help indexes is that, since they're online, there is no visual cue to indicate that there is a topic associated with an entry. What I'm worried about is that users may go to the index entry "Model Editor, triple sequence" and see that there is a sub-entry for "changing," and assume that that's all there is. In fact, there's a topic associated with "Model Editor" (very generic), another topic associated with "Model Editor, triple sequence" (talks about triple sequences in general), and then another topic associated with "Model Editor, triple sequence, changing" (a specific procedural topic). To further complicate things, not all of the top-level entries have a topic associated with them. If the user clicks on some top-level entries, they get a dialog box that pops up and tells them to click the sub-entries. This is for those cases when there is no general topic to associate with a top-level entry. Do we know how users use online indexes? Should this be a worry for me? Is there a way around this that makes sense? Is there some way to indicate to the user that there is, indeed, a topic associated with each entry? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer! -David Castro david.castro@sterling.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:37:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Cindex, email, Prentice Hall I am really stumped on this one: I have never had any trouble sending email files to any publisher, with one exception, that being Prentice Hall. If anyone uses Cindex, has worked with PH, and knows THE ANSWER, please email me. Sometimes my indexes go through to them, often not. They get a strange subject heading, which I did not write, saying something like "partial message 2/2." When they open the file, there's nothing there. I finally got it through last time but the same thing is happening with my current project and I'm in danger of missing the deadline. I'm using Cindex of DOS 6.1. *Very* sincerely, :) Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:13:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Word division and typesetting Actually, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with hyphen stacks. In both manuscripts and early printed books, there are often rows of hyphens at the ends of lines. What is most important for the reader is consistent (and generally tight) word spacing. So if it takes a string of end-of-line hyphens to do that, that's OK. In fact, one of the give-aways of computerized typesetting is lines with extra-wide word and letterspacing that no-one has bothered to correct with the insertion of a hyphen in the following word. And such poorly spaced lines really make for difficult reading. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated 99-05-24 13:22:50 EDT, prider@electriciti.com writes: > Laura's rules are the rules I learned (divide *after* single-letter > syllable. But, I know of no publisher or typesetter who wants to follow > that rule. I find that hyphen stacks of 3-in-a-row are acceptable. I pity > the readers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: Re: Archives---was: how users use HTML Help indexes? > The archives for index-l are located at: http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/ Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:11:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: How users use HTML Help indexes? As far as what the user sees, in most electronic (online, CD-ROM, whatever) indexes I've seen there has been some difference in the text to indicate whether there is material associated with a topic-- either the topics with links are underlined or they appear in a different color or both to distinguish them from the headings that do not have links associated with them. Presumably these distinctions are put in automatically, but depending on the software you use they should be editable to allow you to pick which font and which characteristics you want to associate with "live" links. I know that there are people out there who know more about HTML Help than I do, so I'll let them chime in with specifics. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Castro, David [SMTP:david.castro@STERLING.COM] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 1:23 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: How users use HTML Help indexes? > > This is my first time posting. I looked around to see if there was an > archive > for this listserv, but didn't find one. If this topic has been discussed > in the > past, and there is an archive, I'd really love to get a pointer to it. > > So, I have this index in a compiled HTML Help (*.chm) file, which > frequently > goes to three levels. An example is: > > Model Editor > triple sequence > changing > > The thing about HTML Help indexes is that, since they're online, there is > no > visual cue to indicate that there is a topic associated with an entry. > What I'm > worried about is that users may go to the index entry "Model Editor, > triple > sequence" and see that there is a sub-entry for "changing," and assume > that > that's all there is. In fact, there's a topic associated with "Model > Editor" > (very generic), another topic associated with "Model Editor, triple > sequence" > (talks about triple sequences in general), and then another topic > associated > with "Model Editor, triple sequence, changing" (a specific procedural > topic). > > To further complicate things, not all of the top-level entries have a > topic > associated with them. If the user clicks on some top-level entries, they > get a > dialog box that pops up and tells them to click the sub-entries. This is > for > those cases when there is no general topic to associate with a top-level > entry. > > Do we know how users use online indexes? Should this be a worry for me? Is > there > a way around this that makes sense? Is there some way to indicate to the > user > that there is, indeed, a topic associated with each entry? > > Thanks in advance for any help you can offer! > > -David Castro > david.castro@sterling.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:46:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: How users use HTML Help indexes? In-Reply-To: <199905241324.rkj2ql.vv3.37kbi3u@mx10.mindspring.com> You are right, David, you cannot trust the user to know those topics are there. There's no real way to indicate to the user when they are going to get that db, and when they will get a topic, or even better, the Topics Found db. But novice users will often click on the main head, and try it out. So you can trust some of your audience to click on them. If there is any way to avoid making them dead, do so -- the dialog box really throws novice users, and annoys advanced users. Consistent behavior would be the best thing.... I would rather see a Topics Found db with a few topics than the dialog box. What I might consider doing as well is duplicating access to that main topic down below in the subheads, so there are two access points, and you don't "lose" those topics: Model Editor described ---------- stick in a "described" or "overview" to lead to the same topic as triple sequence the main "Model Editor" above changing described -------------------stick in another here to lead to the same topic as "triple preferences sequence" troubleshooting That way you are covered if they click, or if they don't click. Jan Wright At 12:23 PM 5/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >This is my first time posting. I looked around to see if there was an archive > for this listserv, but didn't find one. If this topic has been discussed in >the > past, and there is an archive, I'd really love to get a pointer to it. > >So, I have this index in a compiled HTML Help (*.chm) file, which frequently > goes to three levels. An example is: > > Model Editor > triple sequence > changing > >The thing about HTML Help indexes is that, since they're online, there is no > visual cue to indicate that there is a topic associated with an entry. What >I'm > worried about is that users may go to the index entry "Model Editor, triple > sequence" and see that there is a sub-entry for "changing," and assume that > that's all there is. In fact, there's a topic associated with "Model Editor" > (very generic), another topic associated with "Model Editor, triple sequence" > (talks about triple sequences in general), and then another topic associated > with "Model Editor, triple sequence, changing" (a specific procedural topic). > >To further complicate things, not all of the top-level entries have a topic > associated with them. If the user clicks on some top-level entries, they get a > dialog box that pops up and tells them to click the sub-entries. This is for > those cases when there is no general topic to associate with a top-level >entry. > >Do we know how users use online indexes? Should this be a worry for me? Is >there > a way around this that makes sense? Is there some way to indicate to the user > that there is, indeed, a topic associated with each entry? > >Thanks in advance for any help you can offer! > >-David Castro > david.castro@sterling.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:18:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Indexing "et al." authors ?? For the index I am currently working on, the author wants all authors whose work is discussed listed in the index. No problem there; but the author has frequently discussed the work of (for example) "Jones and her colleagues" or "Smith and his colleagues." I'm back at the old dilemma: How should I handle this? Do I: a) index each of these "colleagues" (co-authors or co-editors) separatel y? My main objection to this is that the reader looking for, say, "Porter, D." on page 72 won't find him or her, since s/he is part of "Jones and her colleagues." Frustrating for the reader. b) leave out the "colleagues" if they are not listed by name in the text ? Doesn't seem quite fair, and could be frustrating for the co-author whose contribution to the work under discussion has already gone unrecognized. c) index them as "Jones, C., Porter, D., and Smith, G. I.," alphabetized under "Jones?" [Same objection as to (b).] d) follow (c) but cross-reference from the "colleagues?" Possibly the best solution, but in one case, there are *nine* co-authors! That seems a bit much, somehow. I can think of arguments pro and con for any of these options. I'm further frustrated by the feeling that some of these multiauthored works are actually collections of essays. If so, it seems to me that it would be perfectly all right to index just the author whose name was cited. But how can I tell which are which? I know we discussed this a while back, but I don't recall any fast-and-firm decisions. I thought I'd see if the prevailing wisdom had solidified around a common practice yet! I'd appreciate your collective thoughts/advice on the matter. Thank you, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:42:48 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? I have occasionally run into this dilemma myself, though these citations have not been frequent enough to cause great concern. I have always just gone ahead and taken option a), i.e, index all the "colleagues" whether their names appear in the text or not. I have been uncomfortable with doing this at times, but no one has yet complained. If the citation could just as easily be relegated to a footnote, I usually don't index any name. Luckily for me, I don't do many projects where this method of citation is prominent. Sometimes the first individual appears to be the primary researcher and the rest of them may have been less than full partners in the project. In view of the number of entries you are facing, you might consider asking the author about this. I have found that authors often don't understand the full implications of their requests. As far as frustrating the readers is concerned, it's the author who may be doing that, not the indexer. I hope a consensus emerges on this one. Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:23:10 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? John and Kara Pekar wrote: > > For the index I am currently working on, the author wants all authors whose > work is discussed listed in the index. No problem there; but the author > has frequently discussed the work of (for example) "Jones and her > colleagues" or "Smith and his colleagues." I'm back at the old dilemma: > How should I handle this? Do I: > > a) index each of these "colleagues" (co-authors or co-editors) separately? > My main objection to this is that the reader looking for, say, "Porter, > D." on page 72 won't find him or her, since s/he is part of "Jones and her > colleagues." Frustrating for the reader. This is the best option IMO. Most of those looking for "Porter, D." on page 72 will know with whom he did his work. They can always look in the bibliography once they get to that page if they are confused. > b) leave out the "colleagues" if they are not listed by name in the text? > Doesn't seem quite fair, and could be frustrating for the co-author whose > contribution to the work under discussion has already gone unrecognized. Patently unfair, as you noted. And inaccurate. > c) index them as "Jones, C., Porter, D., and Smith, G. I.," alphabetized > under "Jones?" [Same objection as to (b).] > d) follow (c) but cross-reference from the "colleagues?" Possibly the > best solution, but in one case, there are *nine* co-authors! That seems a > bit much, somehow. The cross-ref will be awkward, especially if "Porter, D." also worked with "Smith, G. I.", "Bellows, L.", and "Newcombe, H." as primary authors. You don't mention the field, but I'm experienced mostly in the social sciences (as indexer and index user). Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:52:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: email, Cindex, and PH Thanks to everyone who responded to me offlist with my email question. I finally managed to get the email transmitted. I saved the file by another name onto my desktop and then attached that file. For some reason that worked, whereas the one I saved to "My Documents" didn't. I still don't know WHY, but now maybe I don't need to! Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:38:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: <199905242151.OAA10114@decibel.electriciti.com> My customer who has author indexes insists that all authors be noted for each et al. citation. Their point, with which I strongly agree, is that all authors are responsible for the work cited. Sometimes second and third authors actually do most of the work. If work is cited, all those responsible need to be listed in an author index. Et al. is just shorthand, it is not a value judgment of the work of third, fourth, and so on authors. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:05:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In a message dated 5/24/1999 3:23:30 PM Central Daylight Time, jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET writes: << a) index each of these "colleagues" (co-authors or co-editors) separately? My main objection to this is that the reader looking for, say, "Porter, D." on page 72 won't find him or her, since s/he is part of "Jones and her colleagues." Frustrating for the reader. b) leave out the "colleagues" if they are not listed by name in the text? Doesn't seem quite fair, and could be frustrating for the co-author whose contribution to the work under discussion has already gone unrecognized. c) index them as "Jones, C., Porter, D., and Smith, G. I.," alphabetized under "Jones?" [Same objection as to (b).] d) follow (c) but cross-reference from the "colleagues?" Possibly the best solution, but in one case, there are *nine* co-authors! That seems a bit much, somehow.>> Commenting on this only from the experience of being an "et. al." in scientific publications: If you simply index the names as Jones, C., 72 Porter, D., 72 Smith, G. I., 72 then Porter and Smith will certainly recognize their work when they see "Jones, et. al., 1989" in the text. When you work in lab research, you can almost come to view the name of the paper as "Jones, et. al., 1989" rather than as "Method for purification of some compound." On "B" above: Porter and Smith could be expected to have other papers cited in the book, perhaps "Smith and Jones, 1996." So a case can be made for including all of the authors, as some will be cited multiple times and if you pick them up once you should pick them up everytime. (I believe this should be credited to Stauber, Do Mi, with no "et. al.") Now to address the issue of the reader who may not see "Porter" on the page, known above as issue "A." You have to decide who the audience is. If it is the experts in the field, just put the authors in as above. They know the routine. I suspect undergrads or other newbies will catch on quickly. And why are they looking up Porter anyway? Either they are Porter, or they already know Porter's work is and want to see which of Porter's papers are cited. If the latter, they won't have to look through too many of the references on the page to find Porter hidden in the et. al. The important idea here is that if they look up Porter, they probably want to find ALL of Porter's work, no matter if he/she is not first author. BTW, Porter may be the big-shot in the field and Jones may be his grad student, who the reader may not be familiar with. Another reason to include al the et. al. authors. Other indexers here on Index-L will give you some good ideas, so I finally will shut up. You might ask the editor if there is a convention in the field of the book's topic, or if he/she has a preference. Again, my 2 cents worth is based on being a co-author of medical research publications. We really do pick up a book and say, "Hey, John Doe has a new book. Am I in it?" The name index is the first part we use. Erin (Micki) Taylor 1313 23rd Road Kanopolis, KS 67454 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:53:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? My take would be to index: Jones, A. (co-author with Smith) Using the qualifier alerts the reader to the name of the author who is actually given in the text, thus letting the reader find the actual reference. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated 99-05-24 16:23:09 EDT, jkpekar@crosslink.net writes: > For the index I am currently working on, the author wants all authors whose > work is discussed listed in the index. No problem there; but the author > has frequently discussed the work of (for example) "Jones and her > colleagues" or "Smith and his colleagues." I'm back at the old dilemma: > How should I handle this? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 06:35:40 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: <199905242244.BAA46280@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> At 03:38 PM 5/24/99 -0700, Pam Rider wrote: >My customer who has author indexes insists that all authors be noted for >each et al. citation. > >Their point, with which I strongly agree, is that all authors are >responsible for the work cited. Sometimes second and third authors actually >do most of the work. > >If work is cited, all those responsible need to be listed in an author >index. Et al. is just shorthand, it is not a value judgment of the work of >third, fourth, and so on authors. > > >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com Co-authors in most disciplines are listed in alphabetical order on the article itself (Pam is right about the list not being a value judgment) and they expect to appear in the index, even if they're lumped under "colleagues" in the text itself. In cases where one wants to distinguish between greater and lesser lights, you usually find "with the help of Curly, Larry and Moe" or a similar phrase. We still index them because years later someone may want to find these authors' early work and because visibility in indexes, among other things, can affect the tenure process. Someone on this list mentioned that authors' egos are important and that is *so* true! I once missed one of the references to my boss's article in a footnote and she was not pleased; I'm sure no one else on earth would have noticed or cared but she checked the index to make sure that all the references to *her* articles were there. Avital Dr. Avital Pinnick tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:05:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? Thanks to all who answered my question. The consensus (so far) seems to be option (a) -- index each co-author separately. Thank you for your cogent arguments, which have helped me feel more confident about using that approach. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 01:35:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: charging for second and third indexes Hi all, Leslie here, checking in from obscurity, I know we have gone over this several times, and I have always said that I charge extra for name and company indexes. BUT, I wanted to throw this back into the arena and see how many of you are still charging for these extra indexes (name, company name, etc.) and how many of you are not. And if you are, how much are you charging? Thanks, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:01:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Rates for proofreading? At 11:08 AM 5/24/1999 -0400, Kari Miller wrote: >Hello all! I need advice from the collective wisdom again. I've been >offered a proofreading job for several textbooks, and I have no idea >what to charge. The material is intended for school-age children, and >heavy editing is not expected. Is there anyone who can offer advice? >I appreciate it in advance! Kari, proofreading and editing are two entirely different jobs. Proofreading does NOT involve any editing at all; it is reading the proofs against the edited manuscript to be sure that all changes were made and that the proofs are correct in other respects. Editing is actually working over the original manuscript...fixing grammar and spelling, marking heads, etc. Proofing generally is a beginner's job in publishing, and consequently pays less than editing. A good copyeditor should be making $20-$25 per hour (or even more). A proofreader used to make about $10-$15, but it's been some time since I investigated that rate. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:30:24 -0400 Reply-To: rohrbach@delanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne L. Rohrbach" Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? Good morning all! Once again, Index-L comes through for me! I was wrestling with this very problem just as Kara's question was in my mailbox. I'm also now convinced that indexing all authors is the best choice, and if the editor disagrees with me, I'll have very solid reasons for feeling the way I do. Thanks for all the replies and input! Joanne ========================= > Thanks to all who answered my question. The consensus (so far) > seems to be > option (a) -- index each co-author separately. Thank you for your cogent > arguments, which have helped me feel more confident about using that > approach. > > Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:10:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Article on Web searches Recent issue of Scientific American contains a potentially interesting article entitled "Hypersearching the Web" it's available at: http://www.sciam.com/1999/0699issue/0699raghavan.html John Sullivan Stratus Computer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:31:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Thanks for proofreading rate advice Thanks to all who responded (on and off the list) to my question about proofreading rates. I have never done proofing or editing as a freelancer before, only as a salaried employee, so I was at a loss. You are all very helpful! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:57:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: <199905251208.FAA16393@mail.mcn.org> Kara wrote: >Thanks to all who answered my question. The consensus (so far) seems to be >option (a) -- index each co-author separately. Thank you for your cogent >arguments, which have helped me feel more confident about using that >approach. Yes, except I want to mention that some publishers do have their own style on this, and it is well to ask about that before proceeding. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:08:59 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes Hi all, I'm probably in the minority on this but I do not charge extra for doing author, company, and subject indexes. The reason is because I can do both (or all three if I am also creating a company index) at once. I write a macro (a string which the program reads but does not show up in the index file or hard copy) which I place before the author or company entry which forces it either before or after (whatever I have specified) the subject entries. That way I can do all of the indexes at the same time during one pass through the page proofs. This is no more work for me than if I had been asked to do one combined index containing authors and companies in the subject index. Since it's no more work for me I just can't justify charging more. Virtually the only extra work involved is writing the macros (about 30 seconds work) and making sure that I put extra spaces between the indexes I've created (about 30 more seconds). I then send the single file, containing the author, company, and subject indexes to the editor. Using Macrex makes this method practically a no-brainer for me. Again, I'm suspect I'm in the minority for not charging extra but since it's not extra work for me I just can't justify any extra charges. Best, Sylvia Coates LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > Hi all, Leslie here, checking in from obscurity, > I know we have gone over this several times, and I have always said that I > charge extra for name and company indexes. BUT, I wanted to throw this back > into the arena and see how many of you are still charging for these extra > indexes (name, company name, etc.) and how many of you are not. And if you > are, how much are you charging? > Thanks, > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:55:42 -0400 Reply-To: rohrbach@delanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne L. Rohrbach" Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes Interesting! I'll have to look into this. Anyone know if this can be done in SkyIndex? Joanne --------------------- I write > a macro (a > string which the program reads but does not show up in the index > file or hard > copy) which I place before the author or company entry which > forces it either > before or after (whatever I have specified) the subject entries. > That way I can > do all of the indexes at the same time during one pass through > the page proofs. ::snip:: Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:10:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes In a message dated 5/25/99 12:48:11 PM EST, rohrbach@delanet.com writes: << Interesting! I'll have to look into this. Anyone know if this can be done in SkyIndex? >> I have been asked recently to prepare a separate "word list" index for a book on orthography, and a separate "author index" for a psychology textbook. I use Sky Index and don't know how (or if) they can be done as one and then separated. Does anyone out there know? If not, I was planning to ask Kamm about it and will report back. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes In-Reply-To: <199905251814.OAA04935@mx05.erols.com> Hi Debbie and Joanne, I only glanced over the email about doing separate indexes within one, but if I understood it properly, yes, it is possible in SKY Index too. Just create one or more macros that contain a forced sorting command that does not print anything like this: {|aaa} If that string is placed at the beginning of a main heading, it will force the entry to the top of the index, but will not print anything. {|zzz} This above string will force main headings to the bottom of the index. Remember, curly braces are special characters within macros so they must themselves be enclosed with curly braces like this: {{}|aaa{}} The above is the proper macro for example number one. Hope this helps. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472 Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Debra Lindblom Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 2:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes In a message dated 5/25/99 12:48:11 PM EST, rohrbach@delanet.com writes: << Interesting! I'll have to look into this. Anyone know if this can be done in SkyIndex? >> I have been asked recently to prepare a separate "word list" index for a book on orthography, and a separate "author index" for a psychology textbook. I use Sky Index and don't know how (or if) they can be done as one and then separated. Does anyone out there know? If not, I was planning to ask Kamm about it and will report back. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:09:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? Well, we did go around about this recently, but....As Victoria said, it's a good idea to check with the publisher. My main social science textbook publisher (Prentice Hall) does NOT want names indexed that do not appear in the text. I have never indexed the additional names when the text contained only the first name and et al., and no-one has complained. I know a lot of people disagree with me about this (I'm coming down on the side of not indexing a name which someone will then be unable to find; the main audience for most of my textbooks is undergraduates) but the fact remains that at least one of my publishers wants it this way. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:11:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes Sylvia wrote: << Since it's no more work for me I just can't justify charging more. >> But Sylvia, if there are 15-20 name citations on each page then it certainly is more work! I agree that it doesn't matter whether they're in a separate index or not, and in fact, if a client wanted them all combined I would still charge more if there were a lot of names. I don't think I charge ^enough^ more for large name indexes: fifty cents a page extra. It doesn't cover my time. I don't mind too much because it's brainless time (I check first initials in front of the TV) but still... Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:38:55 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes Sylvia Coates wrote: > > Again, I'm suspect I'm in the minority for not charging extra but since it's > not extra work for me I just can't justify any extra charges. > I recall there being dissenting opinions on this issue. Here's mine. Unless I'm missing some obvious step, doing a name index is somewhat labor (though not brain) intensive. In my last project, the name index took up 15 hours. (I did them separately because I was waiting for the biblio on disk to make data entry easier). I got $.75/page for the names (X 550 pages). This worked out fine, but I would not have felt adequately compensated if those 15 hours were coming out of the total project fee. Even if you do it at the same time as the subjects, there is going to be work involved. It is going to cost you time. I can't believe that it is such a small amount of time that you are not going to want compensation. If it were a matter of 3 or 4 hours, then yes, but I don't think I would want to donate any more time than that to names if there was not an increase over the standard rate. Now, when I negotiated the rate, it was all lumped together in one per page rate. But I knew an element of it was the name index (I assigned it $.75 above, because it was that far above what I would have asked for just a subject index). I don't believe the rate for a name index should exceed 1/4 of the total per page cost for the whole project. But it should be in there. Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:25:44 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes Dear Do Mi, I understand what you're saying. However, in these cases (where I've been asked to separate the information into two or more indexes) I would still have to index all of the names etc. into the one subject index anyway. My clients, who are asking for separate indexes, are publishing primarily accounting and business books and it really isn't any additional work regardless of how many indexes I'm creating. This work is basically textbook level work and not very difficult. I'm making an enormous amount of money per hour even without charging extra for each additional index. And no way do any of these text have 15-20 name citations per page (I'd definitely reconsider if this was the case). Perhaps if I had another kind of client who was requesting this, and it was indeed causing me more work, then I would probably be more inclined to charge more. However, as long as the situation stays the same then I'll continue not charging for more than one index. As I had already stated, I expect I'm in the minority here. When making invoicing decisions we all have to take into consideration the kind of work, our own situation, how much money we're making per hour, and a myriad of additional factors. I'm not comfortable with automatically charging extra for additional indexes without taking everything else into consideration. While I totally respect your views on this (particularly if you are referring to a situation with 15-20 name citations per page) I do think that we need to be cautious in making invoicing decisions. For example, back when we all still had to send out hard copies (this was before it became standard practice to e-mail index files) I was told by an indexer that she not only charged extra for word processing codes (which were automatically available in built-in layouts in the indexing program we both used) but also charged 1 1/2 cents per sheet for the hard copies. This same indexer couldn't figure out why she never had enough work even after being in the business for many years. So, I guess what I'm saying here is: If you can justify extra charges due to the extra work required, then by all means, charge for the extra work. But, I don't think it's a good idea to charge for something extra just because you think you can. Most editors are pretty smart. They know what they're paying for and what they're getting. I know that when I do business transactions with someone (outside of indexing) I like to get my money's worth too. Editors and publishers are no different, nor should they be treated as such. Again, I do respect your views, and within the content you describe it is certainly justifiable to charge more. But each situation is unique and many things need to be considered when deciding on indexing charges. Best, Sylvia Coates Best, Sylvia Coates DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > Sylvia wrote: > > << Since it's no more work for me I just can't justify charging more. >> > > But Sylvia, if there are 15-20 name citations on each page then it certainly > is more work! I agree that it doesn't matter whether they're in a separate > index or not, and in fact, if a client wanted them all combined I would still > charge more if there were a lot of names. > > I don't think I charge ^enough^ more for large name indexes: fifty cents a > page extra. It doesn't cover my time. I don't mind too much because it's > brainless time (I check first initials in front of the TV) but still... > > Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:10:07 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: <199905250156.SAA08604@nccn1.nccn.net> At 09:53 PM 5/24/99 EDT, Fred Leise wrote: >My take would be to index: > >Jones, A. (co-author with Smith) > >Using the qualifier alerts the reader to the name of the author who is >actually given in the text, thus letting the reader find the actual reference. I appreciate this suggestion a lot, though it would work well only in cases in which A. Jones is associated with a single study. In cases of multiple studies "Jones, A." would have to be repeated or the qualifiers would have to entered as subheadings -- unless there were some way to enter abbreviations for them as annotations to the locators. Last fall I did a series of name indexes in which it was possible and very helpful to do just this. Every citation in the text was followed by a number in bold type inside square brackets identical to the reference number for the study in the bibliography, as in "Smith et. al. (1988) [*24*]" (asterisks indicating bold type). This number served as an annotation to the page reference in the index, as in "Jones, A.: 56(24)" "thus letting the reader find the actual reference" as Fred said. Sure would be nice for readers if publishers were to use this format, though it adds quite a bit of work for the indexer. After scanning in and editing the often multiple study author names printed in the chapter bibliographies, I automated the whole process of entering the locators, and then breaking up the lists of multiple study authors into single author names and adding the locators for each study to every author of each study -- the same task Dan Connolly wrote in about recently -- by writing and using macros in WordPerfect 5.1, and only then importing the index into my indexing program for final editing. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:32:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: charging for second and third indexes Sylvia wrote: << Again, I do respect your views, and within the content you describe it is certainly justifiable to charge more. But each situation is unique and many things need to be considered when deciding on indexing charges. >> Oh, absolutely, Sylvia. It sounds as if the name/company indexes you're doing really don't take that much extra time. (When my textbook clients want a separate name index for a very few names, I don't charge them extra--it's the amount of work, not the separate index, that's the issue.) Another reason for us all to carefully describe the kind of work we're doing when we ask questions or try to compare... Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:16:33 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Indexing endnotes Endnotes are indexable if they contain further discussion of a topic, or discussion of a subordinate topic, and are not restricted to providing mere references to sources. The usual style of the locators appears to be 75_n._23 for note 23 on page 75. So far, so good. But I can't find any advice in the usual authorities (Mulvany, Wellisch, CMS14) on how to treat such problems as the following: A long note starts at the foot of a recto and is continued on the following verso. An indexable item appears towards the end of the note on the verso. Should the page number cited be the recto or the verso? [My answer: the recto.] Each chapter has comparatively few endnotes, so that n. 3 (say) of chapter 4 appears on the same page as n. 3 of chapter 5. How do you indicate which n. 3 is meant? [My answer: n.3 (ch.4).] Or can you leave it unspecified, trusting that the reader has the intelligence to work out which n. 3 is meant? [My answer: Yes, you can, but you shouldn't.] I'd be glad to know what other indexers think about these little questions. (I haven't got a copy of Knight's _Indexing, The Art of_ to hand: he may well have considered these questions, and if he did I'd be very grateful if someone would report what he says about them.) Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:27:12 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Indexing endnotes At 05:16 PM 26/05/99 +1200, Simon Cauchi wrote: >A long note starts at the foot of a recto and is continued on the following >verso. An indexable item appears towards the end of the note on the verso. >Should the page number cited be the recto or the verso? [My answer: the >recto.] I agree. But if the indexable item carries over, I index both recto & verso, e.g. 45-46 (n.5) >Each chapter has comparatively few endnotes, so that n. 3 (say) of chapter >4 appears on the same page as n. 3 of chapter 5. How do you indicate which >n. 3 is meant? [My answer: n.3 (ch.4).] Or can you leave it unspecified, >trusting that the reader has the intelligence to work out which n. 3 is >meant? [My answer: Yes, you can, but you shouldn't.] I usually do something like: 45 (ch.4 n.3) >I'd be glad to know what other indexers think about these little questions. >(I haven't got a copy of Knight's _Indexing, The Art of_ to hand: he may >well have considered these questions, and if he did I'd be very grateful if >someone would report what he says about them.) I checked, but Knight does not go into very much detail about endnotes. Alan ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 04:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Jean Thompson I need to locate Jean Thompson who was a monographic cataloger at the University at Albany/SUNY. If anyone can help, please get in touch with me. Sandi Schroeder sanindex@xsite.net. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:20:21 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Lightfoot Subject: Email address In-Reply-To: <199905260513.GAA00551@klingon.netkonect.co.uk> In case I have missed anyone from my 'change of address' list, my email address is now . Sue Lightfoot --------------------------------------------- Sue Lightfoot - Indexer, Proofreader Tremorva, Talland Hill, Polperro, Cornwall PL13 2RZ, England Tel/Fax: 01503 273006 email: slightfoot@macace.co.uk --------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 07:23:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Indexing endnotes On 5/26/1999 12:16 AM Simon Cauchi wrote (in part): >A long note starts at the foot of a recto and is continued on the following >verso. An indexable item appears towards the end of the note on the verso. >Should the page number cited be the recto or the verso? [My answer: the >recto.] > I usually include both pages as a range, e.g., 75-76 n. 23. >Each chapter has comparatively few endnotes, so that n. 3 (say) of chapter >4 appears on the same page as n. 3 of chapter 5. How do you indicate which >n. 3 is meant? [My answer: n.3 (ch.4).] Or can you leave it unspecified, >trusting that the reader has the intelligence to work out which n. 3 is >meant? [My answer: Yes, you can, but you shouldn't.] I think it's the Chicago Manual of Style that recommends: 364n. 12 (193) Where 364 is the page where the note resides, 12 is the note number and 193 is the page where the callout occurs. A headnote should be used to explain this. And be sure your editor agrees with the format. It's a pain to index these and I've done so to have an editor tell me she preferred ambiguity to the long format. hth, Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www.i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:47:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Cindex spell check freezes I am having similar problems. I look forward to perhaps Dave Ream answering? M. J. Barczak Washington, D.C. At 04:18 PM 5/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >I have been running Cindex 6.1 for DOS on a 486 with 4 megs of RAM for at >least 20 indexes and suddenly I have a new problem. > >Till now, whether the index was long or short, I have been able to run the >spell check. Now it doesn't get any further than the second or third word it >doesn't recognize and the whole program freezes. I have to reboot. > >I have tried spell checking only a section of the index but that doesn't >work either. I have tried going back and spell checking old indexes that >were no problem before and Cindex still freezes after the second or third >word. > >I have not added any new programs nor changed any settings. I would very >much appreciate a solution. The only one I have found is to import the index >into WordPerfect and use the WP spell check. > >Thanks very much, >Linda Cournoyer >cardella@videotron.ca > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:47:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Indexing endnotes On Wed, 26 May 1999 17:16:33 +1200 Simon Cauchi writes: > >A long note starts at the foot of a recto and is continued on the >following verso. An indexable item appears towards the end of the note on the verso. Should the page number cited be the recto or the verso? [My answer: the recto.] > I had the same situation in a book where the notes were printed at the end of the book and a fair number of the notes were very long (10-20 lines on each side of the page.) Because the notes were long, I decided to use the verso page number, saving the reader time, I felt. My only hesitation was that the actual note number (for example 23) would not be on that page. For example, p.501: 22. notenotenote 23. notenotenote p. 502: notenotenote 24. notenotenote 25. notenotenote But I thought most people would be able to easily figure out that the first note on page 502 was note 23. So I indexed it 502n. 23 Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing BUILDING A BETTER BOOK! indexer@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:54:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In a message dated 5/25/1999 7:09:14 AM Central Daylight Time, mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL writes: << Co-authors in most disciplines are listed in alphabetical order on the article itself (Pam is right about the list not being a value judgment) >> I have 15 years of experience in medical research and have not heard of this in my field. In the above situation, I would have been first author on most of the papers I contributed to, as the name I published under is earlier in the alphabet than any of the professors I worked for. In my experience, whoever can up with the idea for the research or heads the lab went first and usually did the actual writing, checking with the others for input and accuracy. There is also an ego factor. In some labs the boss always is first no matter the contribution of the rest of the staff. My husband says that is also true in the social sciences. There was a controversy a few years back over the number of authors on papers in medicine and biochemistry. Some labs put all the professors in their papers, even if all they did was drop by the lab and say, "Hello." This helps pad the resumes in a "publish or perish" world. I was bumped off one paper because there were too many MDs. (No hard feelings) All of us really did contribute, but we wanted to avoid looking like we were guilty. I would like to know in what discipline the rule is to put authors in alphabetical order, in case I ever index a book in those fields. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:12:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: <199905261704.KAA06128@decibel.electriciti.com> I also have never seen authors listed alphabetically. The ordering of authors is negotiated by that group and can depend on a number of variables. Just in case: Never--I repeat ***never*** rearrange the order of authors. The order of authors is not necessarily a value judgment because the process of ordering might be based on factors other than portion of contribution or merit. It certainly *can* be based on those factors. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:26:35 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: <199905261655.TAA130876@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> At 12:54 PM 5/26/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/25/1999 7:09:14 AM Central Daylight Time, >mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL writes: > ><< Co-authors in most disciplines are listed in alphabetical order on the > article itself (Pam is right about the list not being a value judgment) >> > >I have 15 years of experience in medical research and have not heard of this >in my field. In the above situation, I would have been first author on most >of the papers I contributed to, as the name I published under is earlier in Whoops! Sorry-- should have said humanities and added the qualifier, "All things being equal", i.e., if all were equal contributors. Co-authored papers are less common in humanities than in the sciences but co-edited books are very common. When the editors are of roughly equal rank (obviously I'm not talking about a grad student assisting a senior professor) and do the same job, they go in alphabetical order. (Remember that we don't have lab bosses, so the pecking order is not as rigidly defined.) I co-edited a book recently and I'm a junior scholar (Ph.D. '96) working with a senior scholar and a, er, middle-aged (?) scholar (IOW, she's midway in rank between us). As it happens, the alphabetical order worked out so that the senior prof was #1 and I was #3, but if it hadn't, I would have gone ahead of #2 because we're close enough in rank. I could not have been #1 because I'm not a specialist in the field (and therein lies the inequality) and the senior prof is. Clear as mud? ;-) I admit that I made it sound more straightforward than it actually is; it's unwise to make comparisons between humanities and sciences because the modus operandi is entirely different. >I would like to know in what discipline the rule is to put authors in >alphabetical order, in case I ever index a book in those fields. How would this affect your indexing? You would not normally be required to know the the order of names, unless you were trying to re-create a citation from an index for some reason. Avital, suffering in the heat Dr. Avital Pinnick tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:50:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Indexing endnotes > Each chapter has comparatively few endnotes, so that n. 3 (say) of chapter > 4 appears on the same page as n. 3 of chapter 5. How do you indicate which > n. 3 is meant? [My answer: n.3 (ch.4).] Or can you leave it unspecified, > trusting that the reader has the intelligence to work out which n. 3 is > meant? [My answer: Yes, you can, but you shouldn't.] How about: 325(n4:3), with an explanatory headnote? It takes up a little less space, which can be significant if there are a lot of indexable notes. (One publisher I for whom I used this form liked it so much they put it in their style guidelines!) Multiple notes from the same chapter would be: 325(nn 4:3-5) if contiguous or 325(nn 4:3, 4:6) if not. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:30:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of Dear 'Collective', Am currently laboring over a book on Renaissance medical texts and need to know whether to sort the titles by the first word occurring in the title, or assume that the first word (in most cases) is an "article" and needs to be "hidden" so that the title is sorted by the first significant word, e.g.: De Anatomicus Administrationibus De Anatomicus Aggressionibus De Guaiaci Medicina... De Humani ... etc. So the question is, should these titles be sorted under "De" or the "De" hidden and sorted under the first significant word? Any experienced answer would be appreciated. Thanks. Julie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:40:13 -0700 Reply-To: indexer@ibm.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sherry L. Smith" Subject: name indexes--why? Recently and many times in the past, there have been interesting and useful discussions about procedures for compiling a name index. But, what is the purpose of a name index? Why does it need to be a separate "document"? And, if it primarily serves as an author list (assume the publisher wants "everybody" listed), how would you justify leaving out the names of organizations that issue reports, eg. National Institute of XXXXXX ? Or perhaps the more appropriate question is--why would these in the subject index when they are citations and not discussions of the organization ? Sherry Sherry L Smith INDEXING SERVICES 63505 Bridle Lane Bend, OR 97701 541 382 6414 (voice & fax) indexer@ibm.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:46:46 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of In-Reply-To: <199905261830.VAA81982@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> At 02:30 PM 5/26/99 -0400, you wrote: >Dear 'Collective', > Am currently laboring over a book on Renaissance medical texts and >need to know whether to sort the titles by the first word occurring in >the title, or assume that the first word (in most cases) is an >"article" and needs to be "hidden" so that the title is sorted by the >first significant word, e.g.: > >De Anatomicus Administrationibus >De Anatomicus Aggressionibus >De Guaiaci Medicina... >De Humani ... >etc. > >So the question is, should these titles be sorted under "De" or the >"De" hidden and sorted under the first significant word? > >Any experienced answer would be appreciated. >Thanks. >Julie > > Under the first significant word, not under "de". Avital Dr. Avital Pinnick tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:52:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Article on Web searches Your URL is misspelled or something. I get a "no DNS entry" error when I click on this link. MJB At 10:10 AM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote: >Recent issue of Scientific American contains a potentially interesting >article entitled "Hypersearching the Web" it's available at: > >http://www.sciam.com/1999/0699issue/0699raghavan.html > > >John Sullivan >Stratus Computer > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:10:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of P.S. Thos Renaissance titles are definitely in Latin (on second look), not Italian, no? Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:09:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of I would be inclined to index Italian and Latin titles under "de" because it is is not an article, it is the preposition "of." I might make an exception if every title starts with "De," but I would make a note of this in the headnote. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Article on Web searches I just clicked the link and got the article. Must be something on your end. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: M. Jessie Barczak [SMTP:jbarczak@CQ.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 2:53 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Article on Web searches > > Your URL is misspelled or something. I get a "no DNS entry" error when I > click on this link. > > MJB > > At 10:10 AM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Recent issue of Scientific American contains a potentially interesting > >article entitled "Hypersearching the Web" it's available at: > > > >http://www.sciam.com/1999/0699issue/0699raghavan.html > > > > > >John Sullivan > >Stratus Computer > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:16:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Article on Web searches Works OK for me. I just cut and pasted a working URL, so misspelling is not possible. > -----Original Message----- > From: Wright, Sharon F. [SMTP:Sharon.Wright@LEXIS-NEXIS.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 3:14 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Article on Web searches > > I just clicked the link and got the article. Must be something on your > end. > > -- Sharon W. > Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: M. Jessie Barczak [SMTP:jbarczak@CQ.COM] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 2:53 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Re: Article on Web searches > > > > Your URL is misspelled or something. I get a "no DNS entry" error when > I > > click on this link. > > > > MJB > > > > At 10:10 AM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >Recent issue of Scientific American contains a potentially interesting > > >article entitled "Hypersearching the Web" it's available at: > > > > > >http://www.sciam.com/1999/0699issue/0699raghavan.html > > > > > > > > >John Sullivan > > >Stratus Computer > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:25:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Vines Little Subject: Re: Article on Web searches I got the article without a problem when I clicked on the link. B ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:48:15 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of The "de" in these titles not an article, but the Latin for "on" or "concerning." It is very common in titles and I have never seen it handled other than as in the list below. Library of Congress likewise regards "de" as significant. In other words, they all go in the Ds. Nick Koenig >Dear 'Collective', > Am currently laboring over a book on Renaissance medical texts and >need to know whether to sort the titles by the first word occurring in >the title, or assume that the first word (in most cases) is an >"article" and needs to be "hidden" so that the title is sorted by the >first significant word, e.g.: > >De Anatomicus Administrationibus >De Anatomicus Aggressionibus >De Guaiaci Medicina... >De Humani ... >etc. > >So the question is, should these titles be sorted under "De" or the >"De" hidden and sorted under the first significant word? > >Any experienced answer would be appreciated. >Thanks. >Julie > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:54:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: name indexes--why? At 11:40 AM 5/26/1999 -0700, Sherry L. Smith wrote: >But, what is the purpose of a name index? Why does it need to be a >separate "document"? As far as I can tell, many authors (especially in the sciences) want to recognize fellow authors whose works they have cited or quoted...so they ask for author indexes. Since there are so many names, it just makes sense to have a separate index for authors (as opposed to subjects). In some cases, a person will be listed in both places; Freud, for example, may be discussed at length as a =subject= and his works may also be cited (so he'd be in the author index). >And, if it primarily serves as an author list (assume the publisher wants >"everybody" listed), how would you justify leaving out the names of >organizations that issue reports, eg. National Institute of XXXXXX ? Or >perhaps the more appropriate question is--why would these in the subject >index when they are citations and not discussions of the organization ? I've always included all "authors," even associations and other groups. I've never had a publisher question this, but if one did, the logical answer is that if you are citing all authors in the author index, then associations as authors need to be there, too. They would not, IMO, belong in the subject index unless they were discussed in the text as a subject. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:04:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Article on Web searches In-Reply-To: <199905261939.MAA11914@decibel.electriciti.com> The DNS messages often serve as a "busy" signal. Keep trying. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:26:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Miller Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 12 May 1999 to 13 May 1999 re: HP printers: I found that for my printer to work and fight over port possession, I had to 'pause' my scanner's software. Not hard, just what worked. THen, to scan, i start the scanner, do my stuff, and then go back to pause, print what I want, etc. I have a Paperport 6,000. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:39:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wygant, Larry J." Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of Julie-- Let me begin by saying I'm not a Latin scholar . . . but it is my understanding that there are no articles in Latin and that in the case of your Latin titles the word "De" would actually be translated as "on", "of", or "about." Therefore "De" should not be ignored in indexing of these titles. Hope that helps. --Larry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:03:14 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of In-Reply-To: <199905262040.XAA125424@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> Clarification: I wrote earlier that you should index Latin titles by ignoring the "de". I should have added that this is only when your index is wholly Latin, as mine often are because I do mainly source indexes. For example, Philo's works are frequently cited by their Latin titles. They are alphabetized by the "significant first word" and not by "de". If you are compiling a general subject index, then you should probably index under the "de" to avoid confusion, although any classicist would check under the second word if their is no heading under "de". Avital Dr. Avital Pinnick tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:08:39 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Indexing endnotes In-Reply-To: <199905260519.WAA07507@nccn1.nccn.net> At 05:16 PM 5/26/99 +1200, Simon Cauchi wrote: > >Endnotes are indexable if they contain further discussion of a topic, or >discussion of a subordinate topic, and are not restricted to providing mere >references to sources. The usual style of the locators appears to be >75_n._23 for note 23 on page 75. So far, so good. Although I like this style a lot, I'm not aware of any general agreement on it, so calling it "the usual style" seems somewhat presumptious. >But I can't find any >advice in the usual authorities (Mulvany, Wellisch, CMS14) on how to treat >such problems as the following: > >A long note starts at the foot of a recto and is continued on the following >verso. An indexable item appears towards the end of the note on the verso. >Should the page number cited be the recto or the verso? [My answer: the >recto.] Like Shirley Warkentin, I'd cite the page on which the information appears -- in this case, the verso. Readers will have no trouble turning back a page, or even two or three pages, to confirm the note number if necessary. Imagine an extreme case in which a note spans more than two pages. Then the need to cite the page on which the information appears -- as usual -- becomes clear, doesn't it? >Each chapter has comparatively few endnotes, so that n. 3 (say) of chapter >4 appears on the same page as n. 3 of chapter 5. How do you indicate which >n. 3 is meant? [My answer: n.3 (ch.4).] Or can you leave it unspecified, >trusting that the reader has the intelligence to work out which n. 3 is >meant? [My answer: Yes, you can, but you shouldn't.] I agree. This is not an issue of trusting the reader's intelligence but of making index entries "clear and unambiguous", as Wellisch says. At 07:23 AM 5/26/99 -0500, Craig Brown wrote: > >I think it's the Chicago Manual of Style that recommends: > >364n. 12 (193) > >Where 364 is the page where the note resides, 12 is the note number and >193 is the page where the callout occurs. A headnote should be used to >explain this. And be sure your editor agrees with the format. It's a >pain to index these and I've done so to have an editor tell me she >preferred ambiguity to the long format. I too object to the above CMS format, not because it's too long but because it's too disjointed and confusing: the spaces destroy its unity and can momentarily fool the eye into seeing it as more than one locator in the midst of a string of other locators, and the parentheses may suggest a qualifier, which the secondary reference is not. Still, better to improve the format, if possible, than to throw it out entirely, because it meets a real need: to give readers access to information when a note includes the name of the subject but the passage in the text to which the note refers does not. The page number of the text to which the note refers points readers to information about the subject named in the note. (See Mulvany's _Indexing Books_, pp. 96-97.) I'd improve the format by eliminating the spaces and using square brackets instead of parentheses for enclosing the page number of the text to which the note refers, as in 123_n._3[95] To me, the itilicized _n_ folowed by a period provides just the right amount of differentiation in the string to make the whole locator readable and understandable, and the square brackets suggest something other than the usual qualifier. In the same vein I'd say that Simon's suggested format for clarifying note numbers -- minus the space -- is readable and understandable too, as in 123_n._3(ch.4) or 123_n._3(ch4) or even 123_n._3(4) in which the parentheses _are_ used, as usual, to enclose a qualifier. I even think these formats are clear enough to be combined, as in 123_n._3(ch.4)[95] All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:14:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: indexing endnotes Simon asks: >> Each chapter has comparatively few endnotes, so that n. 3 (say) of >chapter >> 4 appears on the same page as n. 3 of chapter 5. How do you indicate >which >> n. 3 is meant? [My answer: n.3 (ch.4).] Or can you leave it unspecified, >> trusting that the reader has the intelligence to work out which n. 3 is >> meant? [My answer: Yes, you can, but you shouldn't.] And Kara responds: > >How about: 325(n4:3), with an explanatory headnote? It takes up a little >less space, which can be significant if there are a lot of indexable notes. > (One publisher I for whom I used this form liked it so much they put it in >their style guidelines!) Multiple notes from the same chapter would be: >325(nn 4:3-5) if contiguous or 325(nn 4:3, 4:6) if not. > This style is very similar to what I used in a recent index, although I switched the chapter and note numbers: 325(4: n.3) or 325(4: nn.3-5) or 325(4: nn.4,5) then, for another chapter on the same page: 325(5: n.4) and so forth. The editor was quite pleased with how the index turned out. As to endnotes beginning on one page with the referenced text on the verso, I have used both styles mentioned (using the page number on which the actual entry occurs but using the note number from the previous page and hope the user can sort out what is going on) or simply using a page range: 145-46n. 10. This way seems more understandable and, unless directed otherwise, is the style I plan to use on future projects. Using the above example, an entry with both conditions could read as follows: 325-26(4: n.5) Lillian ashworth@pullman.com (Who finally finished her German project yesterday) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:15:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of In-Reply-To: <199905261945.OAA07824@shooter.bluemarble.net> Nick Koenig, Larry Wyzant, and Barbara Cohen are correct in saying to index starting with the De. In this usage it means "Concerning", and is a quite significant word (more so than in some other usages). Latin does have articles, though they are less used than in English. Therefore even if every single entry in the index started with De, just dropping the initial De could put you right up against an article that you should then, erroneously, drop. The real test of whether to drop the De is educated usage. I have never seen the De dropped in a wide variety of indexing, some of it in books where the index, introduction, etc are all in Latin. This includes philosophical essays, papal encyclicals, hymns, etc. Perhaps Dr. Pinnick is confused by Latin's frequent use of abbreviations, which were highly developed among the Romans and are fitting for citations of a fixed body of work. Thus, Cicero's orations and essays are standardly abbreviated, nearly all of them by an abbreviated version of a single word. One would expect to see De Amicitia cited as Am., Orationes Philippicae in M. Antonium cited as Phil., and (note this one) De Oratore as De Or. However, when the works are actually indexed in books in English or Latin that are within my reach at this desk (including publishers such as Oxford University Press and HarperCollins), indexing is consistently on the De. Best, Marvant Duhon On Wed, 26 May 1999, nkoenig wrote: > The "de" in these titles not an article, but the Latin for "on" > or "concerning." It is very common in titles and I have never > seen it handled other than as in the list below. Library of > Congress likewise regards "de" as significant. In other words, > they all go in the Ds. > > Nick Koenig > > > >Dear 'Collective', > > Am currently laboring over a book on Renaissance medical texts and > >need to know whether to sort the titles by the first word occurring in > >the title, or assume that the first word (in most cases) is an > >"article" and needs to be "hidden" so that the title is sorted by the > >first significant word, e.g.: > > > >De Anatomicus Administrationibus > >De Anatomicus Aggressionibus > >De Guaiaci Medicina... > >De Humani ... > >etc. > > > >So the question is, should these titles be sorted under "De" or the > >"De" hidden and sorted under the first significant word? > > > >Any experienced answer would be appreciated. > >Thanks. > >Julie > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:22:23 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Polish names The hour is late, the deadline is near, my brain is turning to mush (sound familiar?) ... and I've just encountered a bunch of Polish and other Slavic names. Can anyone tell me how the L[slash] is alphabetized? I've got an author called Dl[slash]ugosz. Can I alphabetize the name as DL-- even though it sounds like DW--? What about the C[hacek] (looks like a little v above the c)? TIA, Avital Dr. Avital Pinnick tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:42:07 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Italian manuscript titles, correct alpha sort of In-Reply-To: <199905262217.BAA105336@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> >philosophical essays, papal encyclicals, hymns, etc. Perhaps Dr. Pinnick >is confused by Latin's frequent use of abbreviations, which were highly >developed among the Romans and are fitting for citations of a fixed body >of work. Thus, Cicero's orations and essays are standardly abbreviated, Nope, not confused by abbreviations. Just suffering from record-breaking temperatures (49 C at the Allenby Crossing recently), no a/c, and way too much work at the moment. Sorry about the lapse--I'm starting early on my quota of mistakes for the next millenium. ;-) Avital Avital Pinnick - mailto:mspinnik@mscc.huji.ac.il Maale Adumim, Israel Avital's Fiber Page: The Insane Knitter..... http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/3211 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:43:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TennWords@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: An indexing question --part1_4ffa8af9.247dd302_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please respond directly to Jeff. Thanks! Dawn In a message dated 5/26/99 5:28:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jkonrade-helm@Quark.Com writes: << I hope you can help me. I've tried everything else I can think of. Is there a term for the practice of indexing by last name first? If so, what is it? If whomever receives this would respond as soon as possible, I'd appreciate it greatly. Thank you. Sincerely, Jeff Konrade-Helm jkonrade-helm@quark.com >> --part1_4ffa8af9.247dd302_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd03.mail.aol.com (v59.24) with SMTP; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:28:40 -0400 Received: from smtp.quark.com (smtp.quark.com [206.195.78.15]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (vx) with SMTP; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:28:33 -0400 Received: from denver.quark.com (denver [206.195.71.192]) by smtp.quark.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA21250 for (from envelope sender ) Wed, 26 May 1999 15:28:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: by denver.quark.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 26 May 1999 15:26:49 -0600 Message-ID: <3D62AB6FFC80D211A84700104B10CB2C02621755@denver.quark.com> From: jeff konradehelm To: "'TennWords@aol.com'" Subject: An indexing question Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:26:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope you can help me. I've tried everything else I can think of. Is there a term for the practice of indexing by last name first? If so, what is it? If whomever receives this would respond as soon as possible, I'd appreciate it greatly. Thank you. Sincerely, Jeff Konrade-Helm jkonrade-helm@quark.com --part1_4ffa8af9.247dd302_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:55:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Revised Pages, Charging for Dear Collective Wisdom - Need your advice: I currently am working on a moderately complex 600-page technical book that will comprise 18 chapters plus appendices. I originally was contacted by the editor, although I am dealing mostly with the packager. My agreement (not written) was that the completed index would be deliverable on 26 May (today) at such-and-such a page rate. There was no written contract because I had worked for this author before, and he had asked the publisher that I index this book (very gratifying!) The first book had gone very smoothly. However, this is a different publisher. The question of the packager sending me first-pass proofs never was raised. The chapters have come in piecemeal. I indexed all the text I had (13 chapters) by Sunday, 5/23. On Monday I received Chapters 14 and 15. This morning (5/26) I received Chapter 16. Chapters 17-18, plus the appendices, still are out there in the void. But forget the fact that the schedule is blown. Forget the fact that the last 11% of this book is lost in space. Forget the fact that this slip causes a serious collision with another much larger and much more difficult text that I am scheduled to start tomorrow (and about which they were fully aware). Isn't this what they pay us the Big Bucks for? What has tipped me over is that along with Chapter 16 they also sent a heavily revised Chapter 5 to fuss with, presumably at no cost - - certainly with no comment. Fourteen (14) pages of text and illustrations have walked, with no markings to indicate what has been changed. Finding the revisions was a page-by-page comparison kind of thing. By the time I found the changes, marked the proofs, and made the corrections, 53 entries had been changed and several hours of unexpected surgical tweaking had carved a large chunk out of my afternoon. In some ways this is reminiscent of the earlier thread on the tediousness and difficulty of revising indexes for new editions, rather than simply reindexing from scratch. Now, this does not seem to be an isolated occurrence. Last week the packager sent me revised Chapters 1-4. Chapters 1 and 2 required minor tweaking; chapters 3 & 4 were clean from the indexing point of view. A colleague has told that sending revised proofs is this packager's common practice, so it seems that I can expect to receive the entire book, piecemeal, a second time. Now, the publisher is part of a large conglomerate for whom I have done a fair amount of work (for various elements of the parent organization). I am unfamiliar with the packager. This kind of twice-around indexing never has happened to me before, with the exception of occasional textual changes for which the editors were appropriately apologetic. So, dear CW, how have you handled this kind of thing? I surely don't want to do all this time-consuming surgical fixing pro bono. I have been blindsided, but I am sure it was unintended. When I did mention the first four revised chapters to the packager, and she replied, gently, that she simply expected that I "would do whatever is necessary to do the index"! I have no reason to believe that this is her first dealing with a freelance indexer, but that response makes me wonder... I have started keeping a record of significant page revisions by chapter. It seems reasonable to charge at least my basic page rate for these revisions. I believe that this must be resolved now, not later. I don't want to startle them when I submit my invoice. They (both publisher and packager) are really nice people - - couldn't be pleasanter! But we seem to have different views of schedules and, presumably, of billable hours. Note to newbies: Specifying the details up front always is easier than correcting the assumptions later. The problem is that some things seem so basic that one tends not to question them, unless someone makes an explicit exception. I have (evidently erroneously) placed final proofs in that category. If a publisher is going to send you first-pass proofs and then expect you to reindex the book, I have assumed (Oh, evil word!) that they will make some mention of that. Hmmnnn - - wrong assumption! So far we are talking about the revisions to chapters 1 & 2, and the 14 heavily changed pages in Chapter 5. But the remaining 13 chapters probably will be changed also, so these initial revisions probably will not be the last. It could be a significant change of scope. What have been your experiences regarding charging for [extensive and] unanticipated revisions? Any suggestions? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:50:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: Quark Xpress Many of my clients use Quark Xpress. The out of town clients like to email me the page proofs, which I then print out myself. Many of them have Acrobat Exchange, which means that they can email me PDF files; but some do not, and want to email me their Quark files. I don't have Quark and don't feel like shelling out all that money to buy it simply in order to view their files. Does anyone know of a Quark Xpress viewer? I have contacted Quark, and they don't produce one themselves. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:10:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Revised Pages, Charging for If the agreement was that the finished index was due today, then the *reasonable* expectation is that the final page proofs would reach you before then. In the absence of any other information, I would have indexed what I had in hand, just as you did. On the appearance of the first revised pages, I would have called the editor/packager/whomever and explained that I would have to charge by the hour for making changes. Given that fact, did they want me to continue indexing or wait for final proofs? That puts the ball squarely in their court. (Naturally, my deadline would then be relative to when I received the final copy.) Always inform your contact of the problem and let them know that they will be paying a premium. (And naturally you'll add the question about final proofs to you list of questions you ask when discussing each new project.) Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated 99-05-26 21:57:52 EDT, ROBJRICH@AOL.COM writes: > My agreement (not > written) was that the completed index would be deliverable on 26 May (today) > at such-and-such a page rate. There was no written contract because I had > worked for this author before, and he had asked the publisher that I index > this book (very gratifying!) The first book had gone very smoothly. > However, this is a different publisher. The question of the packager > sending > me first-pass proofs never was raised. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:36:27 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Revised Pages, Charging for Dear Bob, When this has happened to me the editor has always offered to pay me for the extra work. I've never had anyone expect me to re-index pagination changes without compensation. Good luck! Sylvia Coates ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote: > Dear Collective Wisdom - > > Need your advice: > > I currently am working on a moderately complex 600-page technical book that > will comprise 18 chapters plus appendices. I originally was contacted by the > editor, although I am dealing mostly with the packager. My agreement (not > written) was that the completed index would be deliverable on 26 May (today) > at such-and-such a page rate. There was no written contract because I had > worked for this author before, and he had asked the publisher that I index > this book (very gratifying!) The first book had gone very smoothly. > However, this is a different publisher. The question of the packager sending > me first-pass proofs never was raised. > > The chapters have come in piecemeal. I indexed all the text I had (13 > chapters) by Sunday, 5/23. On Monday I received Chapters 14 and 15. This > morning (5/26) I received Chapter 16. Chapters 17-18, plus the appendices, > still are out there in the void. > > But forget the fact that the schedule is blown. Forget the fact that the > last 11% of this book is lost in space. Forget the fact that this slip > causes a serious collision with another much larger and much more difficult > text that I am scheduled to start tomorrow (and about which they were fully > aware). Isn't this what they pay us the Big Bucks for? What has tipped me > over is that along with Chapter 16 they also sent a heavily revised Chapter 5 > to fuss with, presumably at no cost - - certainly with no comment. Fourteen > (14) pages of text and illustrations have walked, with no markings to > indicate what has been changed. Finding the revisions was a page-by-page > comparison kind of thing. > > By the time I found the changes, marked the proofs, and made the corrections, > 53 entries had been changed and several hours of unexpected surgical tweaking > had carved a large chunk out of my afternoon. In some ways this is > reminiscent of the earlier thread on the tediousness and difficulty of > revising indexes for new editions, rather than simply reindexing from scratch. > > Now, this does not seem to be an isolated occurrence. Last week the packager > sent me revised Chapters 1-4. Chapters 1 and 2 required minor tweaking; > chapters 3 & 4 were clean from the indexing point of view. > > A colleague has told that sending revised proofs is this packager's common > practice, so it seems that I can expect to receive the entire book, > piecemeal, a second time. > > Now, the publisher is part of a large conglomerate for whom I have done a > fair amount of work (for various elements of the parent organization). I am > unfamiliar with the packager. This kind of twice-around indexing never has > happened to me before, with the exception of occasional textual changes for > which the editors were appropriately apologetic. > > So, dear CW, how have you handled this kind of thing? I surely don't want to > do all this time-consuming surgical fixing pro bono. I have been blindsided, > but I am sure it was unintended. When I did mention the first four revised > chapters to the packager, and she replied, gently, that she simply expected > that I "would do whatever is necessary to do the index"! I have no reason to > believe that this is her first dealing with a freelance indexer, but that > response makes me wonder... > > I have started keeping a record of significant page revisions by chapter. It > seems reasonable to charge at least my basic page rate for these revisions. > I believe that this must be resolved now, not later. I don't want to startle > them when I submit my invoice. They (both publisher and packager) are really > nice people - - couldn't be pleasanter! But we seem to have different views > of schedules and, presumably, of billable hours. > > Note to newbies: Specifying the details up front always is easier than > correcting the assumptions later. The problem is that some things seem so > basic that one tends not to question them, unless someone makes an explicit > exception. I have (evidently erroneously) placed final proofs in that > category. If a publisher is going to send you first-pass proofs and then > expect you to reindex the book, I have assumed (Oh, evil word!) that they > will make some mention of that. Hmmnnn - - wrong assumption! > > So far we are talking about the revisions to chapters 1 & 2, and the 14 > heavily changed pages in Chapter 5. But the remaining 13 chapters probably > will be changed also, so these initial revisions probably will not be the > last. It could be a significant change of scope. > > What have been your experiences regarding charging for [extensive and] > unanticipated revisions? Any suggestions? > > Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:32:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: Re: Revised Pages, Charging for Bob Richardson wrote, in part: > >What have been your experiences regarding charging for [extensive and] >unanticipated revisions? Any suggestions? > Doesn't help you now, but any time I write a letter of agreement (which is most of the time unless (a) the publisher has a standard contract or (b) it is a well-known client) I include boiler-plate saying that any pages revised after I have indexed them will incur an additional charge at the rate per page I am getting for the book. This does not always protect me fully but it helps. Note that I get to say whether I had indexed the page/chapter or not by the time the revisions come. With most clients they do not object to additional payments even without the clause. YMMV. In your situation, as you say, communication right now is the thing. Larry Harrison (remove NOSPAM to email me directly) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:34:47 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Krys Bottrill Subject: Re: Polish names > Can anyone tell me how the L[slash] is alphabetized? > After L > What about the C[hacek] (looks like a little v above the c)? > Shouldn't be a little v but a little slash. It comes after C You can see the complete Polish alphabet on http://www.asklang.co.uk/publish/polishalph.html krys (hoping some time to get on with the SI indexing course!) Krys Bottrill, BSc PhD MIInfSc Head of Information Services, FRAME 96-98 N Sherwood St, Nottingham, NG1 4EE, UK tel: 0115 9584740; fax: 0115 9503570; http://www.frame-uk.demon.co.uk/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:34:08 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: > I also have never seen authors listed alphabetically. The ordering of > authors is negotiated by that group and can depend on a number of > variables. I think sometimes if a team publishes several papers on a project they swap the authors' names round from paper to paper so they all get a fair crack of the whip. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:42:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Binder Subject: Re: Quark Xpress Michael-- As far as I know (I am the author of a book on QuarkXPress) there is no QuarkViewer. But your question brings up another point -- the clients would also need to send you the fonts used in the QuarkXPress documents, or the text would reflow because the fonts would default to something else when you open the document. Too much room for error there, in my opinion. The Acrobat package is only about US$200, so it shouldn't be too much of a hardship for your clients to purchase it, considering that it would be useful for more than one project. If they use other Adobe products like FrameMaker it comes free on the CD. It's definitely the best way to transfer files such as the ones you describe (but I hope you're building in a charge for the use of your printer). Kate On 5/27/99 3:50 AM, Michael Wyatt wrote: >Many of my clients use Quark Xpress. The out of town clients like to email >me the page proofs, which I then print out myself. Many of them have Acrobat >Exchange, which means that they can email me PDF files; but some do not, and >want to email me their Quark files. I don't have Quark and don't feel like >shelling out all that money to buy it simply in order to view their files. >Does anyone know of a Quark Xpress viewer? I have contacted Quark, and they >don't produce one themselves. > >Michael Wyatt >Keyword Editorial Services >22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia >Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 >keyword@ozemail.com.au ------------------------------------- Kate Binder Prospect Hill Publishing Services kate@prospecthillpub.com / www.prospecthillpub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:50:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: Subject: Polish names Avital Pinnick wrote: I've just encountered a bunch of Polish and other Slavic names. Can anyone tell me how the L[slash] is alphabetized? I've got an author called Dl[slash]ugosz. Can I alphabetize the name as DL-- even though it sounds like DW--? What about the C[hacek] (looks like a little v above the c)? Assuming you are indexing an English-language book for an English-speaking audience, why not take the advice of BS 1749, "British Standard Recommendations for alphabetical arrangement and the filing order of numbers and symbols". Section 4.1. says: "Modified, additional and combined Roman alphabet letters should be filed as the nearest equivalent of the English alphabet. ... Diacrital marks shold be ignored for the purposes of arrangement." In other words, file the slashed L (I've heard it called a "crossed L" and a "dark L") as if it were an ordinary English L. File any letter with a hacek as if it didn't have one at all. (In Polish I believe what they call a hacek is a hook that appears under an A or E and has the effect of nasalising it, as in the famous one-time President Walesa (pron. Va-wen-sa), who boasted both a slashed L and a hooked E; the little v, also called a hacek, appears in Czech and possibly some other Slavic languages. I think.) Whatever, whether it's a hook or v, ignore it. If you're indexing a book in Polish, or a book for an audience who might expect Polish conventions to be followed, that's a different matter. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:03:09 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: (was Polish names) Danish anyone? In-Reply-To: <199905271155.OAA118558@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> On Thu, 27 May 1999, Michael Wyatt wrote: > Assuming you are indexing an English-language book for an English-speaking > audience, why not take the advice of BS 1749, "British Standard > Recommendations for alphabetical arrangement and the filing order of numbers > and symbols". Section 4.1. says: "Modified, additional and combined Roman > alphabet letters should be filed as the nearest equivalent of the English > alphabet. ... Diacrital marks shold be ignored for the purposes of > arrangement." It will be for a general audience, so I'll keep this in mind. Thanks very much for the reference. Now I've found a couple Danish names which begin with an a-ring. I seem to recall seeing this mark rendered as "Aa" in library catalogues but I don't want to rely solely on a hazy memory. Does anyone know if the a-ring is treated as an "a" or as "aa" when alphabetizing? Avital ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: French dictionary/grammar on CD-ROM Hello All, I am going to do some proofreading in French in a few weeks. I "de-acquisitioned" my college French dictionary and grammar books long ago. Can anyone recommend a good French dictionary and/or grammar on CD-ROM? Thanks, Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Breckenridge Subject: Re: (was Polish names) Danish anyone? In-Reply-To: <199905271148.GAA19715@unlinfo3.unl.edu> At 03:03 PM 27-05-99 +0300, you wrote: >On Thu, 27 May 1999, Michael Wyatt wrote: >> ... Diacrital marks shold be ignored for the purposes of >> arrangement." > >It will be for a general audience, so I'll keep this in mind. Thanks very >much for the reference. > > >Now I've found a couple Danish names which begin with an a-ring. I seem to >recall seeing this mark rendered as "Aa" in library catalogues but I don't >want to rely solely on a hazy memory. Does anyone know if the a-ring is >treated as an "a" or as "aa" when alphabetizing? > >Avital I'm only half-Danish, but I know a little bit about the language. I believe that in Denmark this would be the last letter of the alphabet, following the ae ligature and the slashed o, all of which follow z. These aren't considered accented letters but separate letters unto themselves. You would be safe in rendering it "aa," however, as the a-ring seems to be a modern development (I've seen "aa" in older Danish texts where now it would be the special letter), and you are correct that it's often rendered that way in library catalogues. Danes (and Swedes and Norwegians) would know what the "aa" stands for in their languages, so I think you would be safe in letting it fall at the beginning of the alphabet. By the way, the pronounciation isn't what an English speaker would expect for a double a -- it's kind of a very abrupt, long o sound. Hope this helps. Sue ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:45:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker Subject: Re: Revised Pages, Charging for I'm always surprised when no contract exists. But I work at a large company where all freelancers we hire sign contracts before work starts. Maybe at smaller companies, it's more the norm not to have contracts. Still, it seems like it would be safer to both parties to always enter into a project with a common understanding of what the freelancer will do for the publisher. As for the extra page problem, speaking from a publisher's perspective, I can't imagine not paying an indexer (or a proofreader or whomever) if I ask him or her to do extra work. And, actually, in this case -- scheduling problems aside -- I would just expect the indexer to bill me for all pages that were worked on (in a sense then, it's not "extra" work, it's just part of the project, albeit an unexpected one). So instead of it being a 600-page book, it really winds up being a, say, 637-page book for payment purposes. You're only being paid for work you're honestly doing; so, ideally, there shouldn't be an issue here. Hopefully your client isn't the type who takes advantage of freelance colleagues, especially if you're good. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:30:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Revised Pages, Charging for Bob wrote: << But forget the fact that the schedule is blown....What has tipped me over is that along with Chapter 16 they also sent a heavily revised Chapter 5 to fuss with, presumably at no cost - - certainly with no comment. >> Bob, you have my deepest sympathy. This kind of thing has happened to me, though usually with a little more sympathy from the client. First of all, I consider that an agreed due date is based on my receiving the pages by the agreed time. If their schedule slips (and these days I often find myself suddenly realizing that I don't have the pages, calling them to check, and finding out that they're going to be a month late. I can't tell you how many times lately I've made an effort to swallow the words, "And you were going to tell me...when??") Anyway, I tell them that unfortunately the job has now slipped over into another job, and that I'll let them know when I can get it done (and of course, I'll do my very best to do it fast for them!). So I don't think you have to take the slipped schedule lying down. Now, revised pages. I would not take this lying down, either. You're right that we should all be specifying final page proofs at the agreement stage, and I'm guilty of not doing this, too (although if they ask me, I'll tell them!). I would tell them that, since the usual practice is for the indexer to work from final page proofs and that is what you based your schedule on (ironic laughter, since they've blown the schedule anyway), you do charge extra for the work of revising the index based on heavily revised page proofs. (I do a few pages for free, but if it gets extensive, I charge.) I usually charge by the hour for this, although if it's the entire book you could probably do it by the page. Whether they'll agree to this, of course, is another question, and you have more negotiating experience than I do...But at least you'll have gotten the message across to the packager that this kind of thing is not usual. I wish you the best of luck! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:26:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: PDR for Herbal Medicines Many of you probably already know about this book, but I just thought that I would share it with the list anyway: PDR for Herbal Medicines (Montvale, NJ : Medical Economics Company, 1998, ISBN 1-56363-292-6) ($59.95) You may find the medicines/herbs both by Scientific and Common Name Index Indications Index (what medicine for what condition) Therapeutic Category Index Side Effects Index Drug/Herb Interactions Guide Herb Identification Guide Herbal Monographs (profiles of herbs, by scientific names, with cross references from common names) Glossary (of specialized botanical nomenclature) A good reference source for some alternative medicine topics, I think. The publisher (who publishes the annual PDR for prescription drugs) also publishes an atlas of human anatomy and a book on non-prescription drugs and dietary supplements, among others. Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Cookbooks, Food History, Nutrition, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:43:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: indexing endnotes Lillian wrote, in part: > And Kara responds: > > > >How about: 325(n4:3), with an explanatory headnote? It takes up a little > >less space, which can be significant if there are a lot of indexable notes. > > (One publisher I for whom I used this form liked it so much they put it in > >their style guidelines!) Multiple notes from the same chapter would be: > >325(nn 4:3-5) if contiguous or 325(nn 4:3, 4:6) if not. > > > > This style is very similar to what I used in a recent index, although I > switched the chapter and note numbers: > > 325(4: n.3) or 325(4: nn.3-5) or 325(4: nn.4,5) > > then, for another chapter on the same page: > > 325(5: n.4) > > and so forth. The editor was quite pleased with how the index turned out. I probably didn't make it clear in my example, but 4 was the chapter number, and the subsequent numbers were the note numbers from that chapter. So Lillian's example is identical to mine except for the placement of the "n" or "nn" indicator. I think it would be more confusing to the reader to put the note number *before* the chapter number, as Lillian seems to imply I did above. [I'm not miffed, Lillian, and I don't think that's what you meant anyway, but for clarification's sake...;-) ] Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:43:24 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: contextcomm@ATT.NET Subject: Embedding indexing in Adobe InDesign? Does anyone know if Adobe's new desktop publishing program InDesign includes an embedded indexing feature? Anne --------- Anne Day, Indexer ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:51:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Embedding indexing in Adobe InDesign? In-Reply-To: <199905271544.rkr858.b59.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> From what I hear from a guy who is documenting it, no, it doesn't. At 07:43 PM 5/27/99 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone know if Adobe's new desktop publishing >program InDesign includes an embedded indexing feature? > >Anne > >--------- > >Anne Day, Indexer >ConTEXT Communications >Holland, Pennsylvania =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:58:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In a message dated 5/26/1999 12:29:27 PM Central Daylight Time, mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL writes: << I would like to know in what discipline the rule is to put authors in >alphabetical order, in case I ever index a book in those fields. How would this affect your indexing? >> Actually, I worded the request poorly. Indexers tend to be information-junkies and I was curious. I doubt that knowing the order of authors would affect an index. However, just knowing that conventions in different fields many vary in unexpected ways is quite important to someone who is preparing indexes. I am sure we have all seen indexes by people who may have understood the book, but not the conventions of the field. Enough of my 2 cents, Micki ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:37:53 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Re: Revised Pages, Charging for From Christine Headley This has never happened to me (luckily). I would say, invoice them for the number of pages you indexed - if a chapter came twice, add both lots of pages together. They may well argue, in which case you can negotiate a figure somewhere in between. Make it absolutely clear to them that indexing a chapter twice is more trouble than indexing it once. Good luck! Christine H Bob Richardson wrote What has tipped me >over is that along with Chapter 16 they also sent a heavily revised Chapter 5 >to fuss with, presumably at no cost - - certainly with no comment. Fourteen >(14) pages of text and illustrations have walked, with no markings to >indicate what has been changed. Finding the revisions was a page-by-page >comparison kind of thing. > >By the time I found the changes, marked the proofs, and made the corrections, >53 entries had been changed and several hours of unexpected surgical tweaking >had carved a large chunk out of my afternoon. In some ways this is >reminiscent of the earlier thread on the tediousness and difficulty of >revising indexes for new editions, rather than simply reindexing from scratch. > by Christine Headley Copyeditor and Indexer Stroud, Glos ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Embedding indexing in Adobe InDesign? On this thread, may I add: any problems with cross-references in embedded indexing programs? How are they overcome? Thanks a lot, M. J. Barczak Washington, D.C. At 12:51 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >From what I hear from a guy who is documenting it, no, it doesn't. > >At 07:43 PM 5/27/99 +0000, you wrote: >>Does anyone know if Adobe's new desktop publishing >>program InDesign includes an embedded indexing feature? >> >>Anne >> >>--------- >> >>Anne Day, Indexer >>ConTEXT Communications >>Holland, Pennsylvania > > >=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= >Wright Information Indexing Services >http://www.wrightinformation.com >Jancw@wrightinformation.com >=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: danna Subject: Indexing courses comparison Hello! My name is Theresa, and I am new to this list, as well as to indexing. I currently work fulltime as a proofreader/editor at an ad agency in the Los Angeles area. I would like to take a course in indexing so that I can do that on a freelance basis in the future, but I am not sure which course is better: the USDA basic course or the one offered by Ann Hall in Scotland. Does anyone on the list have experience with both of them? If so, will you please give a brief comparison/contrast? Thank you. Theresa http://home.earthlink.net/~prewombpsi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:29:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Polish names In-Reply-To: <199905270413.XAA19391@b.mx.execpc.com> >Can anyone tell me how the L[slash] is alphabetized? I've got an author >called Dl[slash]ugosz. Can I alphabetize the name as DL-- even though it >sounds like DW--? > >What about the C[hacek] (looks like a little v above the c)? As far as I know, all diacritics are ignored in sorting, so I would alphabetize it as DL. I ignore them (i.e., in sorting) in all my indexes, and editors seem happy with that. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:08:32 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: Polish names/sorting of diacritics In-Reply-To: <199905272131.RAA28844@jacinet.johnabbott.qc.ca> At 04:29 PM 5/27/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Can anyone tell me how the L[slash] is alphabetized? I've got an author >>called Dl[slash]ugosz. Can I alphabetize the name as DL-- even though it >>sounds like DW--? >> >>What about the C[hacek] (looks like a little v above the c)? The only time that sorting on diacritics is irrelevent is when there are no other words that are spelled with the same sequence of letters either without diacritics or with different diacritics. If there are other words, it is essential that the sorting rules "see" the differences and sort the words separately, since they have different meanings. Diacritics are not extra funny squiggles, but are elements of the word, and as such they have a filing value. I am not familiar with Polish rules, but if you have other words starting Dlu, you need perhaps to check a good dictionary to see how words have been filed. Or a Polish biographical dictionary might help. And do file according to actual letters, not the sounds of the letters (you could make a x-ref if you really felt it justified, or if the name is sometimes spelled in an anglicized version Dw..). Christine **************************************************************************** ******** Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC (514) 457-6610, loc 470 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:34:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Embedding indexing in Adobe InDesign? In-Reply-To: <199905271648.rkrbsd.di0.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> They do not verify cross references. Some don't even know it is any different from any other kind of text. Some do know it, but none do what Cindex and Macrex do in terms of checking things. Placement and sorting can be a problem in some programs. At 04:50 PM 5/27/99 -0400, you wrote: >On this thread, may I add: > >any problems with cross-references in embedded indexing programs? How are >they overcome? > >Thanks a lot, > >M. J. Barczak >Washington, D.C. > >At 12:51 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >>From what I hear from a guy who is documenting it, no, it doesn't. >> >>At 07:43 PM 5/27/99 +0000, you wrote: >>>Does anyone know if Adobe's new desktop publishing >>>program InDesign includes an embedded indexing feature? >>> >>>Anne >>> >>>--------- >>> >>>Anne Day, Indexer >>>ConTEXT Communications >>>Holland, Pennsylvania >> >> >>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= >>Wright Information Indexing Services >>http://www.wrightinformation.com >>Jancw@wrightinformation.com >>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= >> >> =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: PDR for Herbal Medicines In-Reply-To: <199905271832.NAA20582@shooter.bluemarble.net> I have not seen the PDR for Herbal Medicines, but if it is like the PDR's the same publisher does on Non-prescription Drugs and Prescription Drugs (I am a nurse and so have used those) there would be a major drawback to keep in mind. That is, that what is written about a drug is mainly (usually entirely if only one company makes the drug) written by the company that makes and sells the particular drug. It may be the drug's bottle label, just in an older edition. Definitely useful, but for herbal medicines made by pharmaceutical companies this may be less alternative than advertising if the publisher follows his past practices. (Let me know if he does not, in which case I apologize in advance.) Marvant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:05:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: danna Subject: Re: PDR for Herbal Medicines I use all of the PDRs at my job, and the herbal one is different. It is based mostly on Germany's Commission E and the German Federal Authority's research. (Those are similar to the USA's FDA.) The only drawback that I've seen with the herbal one is that many of the reference articles listed for each herb are in German language journals. Theresa http://home.earthlink.net/~prewombpsi ---------- From: marvant duhon [SMTP:mduhon@BLUEMARBLE.NET] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 4:46 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: PDR for Herbal Medicines I have not seen the PDR for Herbal Medicines, but if it is like the PDR's the same publisher does on Non-prescription Drugs and Prescription Drugs (I am a nurse and so have used those) there would be a major drawback to keep in mind. That is, that what is written about a drug is mainly (usually entirely if only one company makes the drug) written by the company that makes and sells the particular drug. It may be the drug's bottle label, just in an older edition. Definitely useful, but for herbal medicines made by pharmaceutical companies this may be less alternative than advertising if the publisher follows his past practices. (Let me know if he does not, in which case I apologize in advance.) Marvant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:21:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcy Brown Subject: Distance learning in cataloging? Hello, listmembers, Please pardon the tangential topic of cataloging, but AUTOCAT seems not to be active right now. I'm looking for distance learning courses in advanced cataloging, cataloging of non-book materials, etc. I've tried several sites and the only library school I've discovered with a distance program is Arizona. Do any of you catalogers out there know of distance courses, either traditional correspondence or Internet-based? Much appreciated. Please reply privately to marcelyn@westol.com Thank you! Marcy Brown Wordsmith Services Delmont PA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:53:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: indexing endnotes Yes, Kara is correct - The difference between us comes down to placement of the n./nn. designation. To me, it sems more logical to look for an entry by page number, then chapter number, then note number. Placing the note designation (n./nn.) before the chapter number seems confusing. I had to read Kara's example several times before I sorted out that "4:" was a chapter heading and not part of the note number itself. But to each their own! In the book in which I first used this style, the endnotes section contained chapter numbers and headings followed by the notes. In the case of several chapters with few endnotes, two or three chapters were all contained on the same page, each sequence beginning with note 1. It just seemed to flow better giving the sequence as page number, chapter number, note number. ([entry], 325, 4:n.3) The sequence is the same in Kara's example but the notation is different. Of course, if the note number itself contained the chapter number as part of the note number, then I can see constructing the locator as Kara suggests: [entry], 325(n.4:2) [entry],325(n.5:1) So, it comes down to a matter of taste, I guess --and variety is the spice of life! Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:18:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: PDR for Herbal Medicines At 06:45 PM 5/27/99 -0500, marvant duhon wrote: > I have not seen the PDR for Herbal Medicines, but if it is like >the PDR's the same publisher does on Non-prescription Drugs and >Prescription Drugs (I am a nurse and so have used those) there would be a >major drawback to keep in mind. That is, that what is written about a drug >is mainly (usually entirely if only one company makes the drug) written by >the company that makes and sells the particular drug. It may be the drug's >bottle label, just in an older edition. Definitely useful, but for herbal >medicines made by pharmaceutical companies this may be less alternative >than advertising if the publisher follows his past practices. (Let me know >if he does not, in which case I apologize in advance.) No, no advertising in this one. I did not post the information on the PDR for Herbal Medicines for any other reason than to state that there is a reference source out there that could serve as a reference for indexers indexing books and materials on alternative medicines. The names of the herbs and their uses is the point to get here, not whether or not the information is product advertising for your cold or whatever (so for me, for this reason, the other PDRs are useful in spite of supposedly being avertising--any reference that will give me other possible names for information access points is useful, regardless of its intended purposes). And yes, the information comes primarily from German sources, because the Germans are the few people who have started doing scientific studies on these herbal medicines. And no, there are no brand or company names involved at all in this particular PDR, at least not from what I see, except for the very last page where there is information about PhytoPharm Consulting Institute for Phytopharmaceuticals GmbH; they work with product developers, among other things. The following information is given in the herb profiles: Description Actions and Pharmacology (including other names--the good part for indexers) Indications and Usage Precautions and Adverse Reactions Literature Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Cookbooks, Food History, Nutrition, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:10:59 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Lightfoot Subject: Re: Indexing "et al." authors ?? In-Reply-To: <199905261651.RAA05903@klingon.netkonect.co.uk> >There was a controversy a few years back over the number of authors on papers >in medicine and biochemistry. I indexed the World Journal of Microbiology and Biotechnology a couple of years ago, and the number of authors listed for each paper were in inverse proportion to the length of the article. Sue -------------------------- Sue Lightfoot - Indexer, Proofreader Polperro, Cornwall, England email: slightfoot@macace.co.uk -------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shawna Fleming Subject: Question from a "pre-newbie" Dear Listmembers, I am a new list member who is gratefully absorbing all of your excellent tips! You seem like a very collegial group, so I will be bold and ask what has probably become an annoying and frequently asked question. I am a fifth-year graduate student in the biomedical sciences and a former reference and catalogue librarian, who is interested in finding work as a freelance indexer (grad student salaries being what they are). The question is, how does one find a first indexing position? While I have a great deal of education in the biomedical sciences and perhaps some relevant training from my library days, I'm a bit shy about sending out unsolicited resumes and cover letters trying convince someone to pay me for something that I have never done. I would love to hear from anyone who has started working as a freelance-indexer, particularly those who have come from non-publishing backgrounds. Thanks in advance! Anyone who would be so kind as to share a tip or two can email me privately at: Shawna_Fleming@Brown.edu Thanks again, Shawna ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:37:45 -0400 Reply-To: contextcomm@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Suggestions for improving Quark's Index XTension? Hi everyone, The other day, Dawn from TennWords forwarded an indexing question to Index-L from someone who works at Quark (I noticed the "quark.com" in the person's e-mail address when I replied). I noted in my reply that I use Quark all the time for DTP work, and he asked if I have any suggestions for improvements to the Index XTension, because he's one of the people working to update it. I told him I'd post a question to the list, compile the suggestions, and forward them to him sometime next week. This seems like a great opportunity for Quark indexers to go right to the source with a wish list. Please post or send to me directly your concerns and suggestions for the Quark embedded indexing feature (Index XTension). When I forward the results to Quark, I'll post a copy to Index-L. Thanks! Anne -- Anne Day, Indexer ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania contextcomm@worldnet.att.net "Great minds discuss ideas... Average minds discuss events... Small minds discuss people." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:42:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Adlam Subject: indexing advice Dear list-members I am new to indexing, and am trying to solve the problem of how to create an index with locators by numbered entry rather than by page. I have been trying to do this in Word 97 for days now, and this list is my last resort. The text I'm working with is about 1000 pages long, and consists of small sequential encyclopedia entries, which is why I need an index which gives entry numbers rather than page numbers. Unfortunately I don't have any money to pay for professional indexing services or software, so any advice on how I could do this in word or some other free- or shareware programme would be gratefully received. ---------------------- Carol Adlam Department of Russian Queen's Building The Queen's Drive University of Exeter Exeter EX6 6HE, UK Tel: 01392 264211 WWW: http://www.ex.ac.uk/russian ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Your government at work Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail service (MailBoxes, Etc.) Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will have to: - Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID. - Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box number in my address. If I do not begin using the PMB designation by October 26, the USPS will no longer deliver mail to MBE. I understand that the intent of this is to cut down on the fraudulent use of mail drops, but to conform to the use of the PMB designation means reprinting all of my business cards, letter head, envelopes and mailing labels at a cost of several hundred dollars. I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS regulation and they could not give me one. They said they would call back. Anyone got any more dope on this? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:16:16 -0700 Reply-To: synsidar@sprintmail.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Steven R. Stahl" Subject: Re: Your government at work Richard Evans wrote: > > Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail > service (MailBoxes, Etc.) > > Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will > have to: > > - Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID. > - Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box > number in my address. [snip] > I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS > regulation and they could not give me one. They said they would call back. > > Anyone got any more dope on this? I recall seeing an article about how businesses were misusing the mail-service boxes as part of non-existent addresses; fictitious suite numbers were cited. The requirement to use PMB numbers is intended to eliminate that type of misuse. There's no doubt that the new regulations are legitimate. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:01:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Your government at work In-Reply-To: <199905281551.rktstg.11p.37kbi3u@mx10.mindspring.com> A friend of mine sent out messages yesterday informing everyone about this, and that her address was changing. She said that she had only two weeks to get it done -- that mail would stop being delivered in two weeks -- I don't know why you have a discrepancy in the dates you have been given. She was seriously put out about it. If you find out anything, let us all know... Jan Wright At 03:52 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail >service (MailBoxes, Etc.) > >Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will >have to: > >- Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID. >- Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box > number in my address. > >If I do not begin using the PMB designation by October 26, the USPS will no >longer deliver mail to MBE. > >I understand that the intent of this is to cut down on the fraudulent use >of mail drops, but to conform to the use of the PMB designation means >reprinting all of my business cards, letter head, envelopes and mailing >labels at a cost of several hundred dollars. > >I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS >regulation and they could not give me one. They said they would call back. > >Anyone got any more dope on this? > >Dick =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Your government at work In-Reply-To: <199905281602.rkttho.fmu.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 03:16 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >I recall seeing an article about how businesses were misusing the >mail-service boxes as part of non-existent addresses; fictitious >suite numbers were cited. The requirement to use PMB numbers is >intended to eliminate that type of misuse. There's no doubt that >the new regulations are legitimate. Legal maybe. Legitimate (in the sense of accomplishing the stated purpose) no way. Requiring a photo ID to rent a box accomplishes some sense of security. Forcing the use of the letters PMB, refusing to deliver the mail, and costing each business owner several hundred dollars in no way increases the security of the general public. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:46:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Your government at work I'm certainly not going to debate the merits of this regulation-- I wouldn't know where to begin! I might be able to shed some light on the dates, however. The Postal Regulation which put this into effect states that the Commercial Mail Receiving Agency (CMRA-- don't you love these government acronyms?) has six months from the effective date (March 11, 1999) to get into compliance, which would be what, September (hey, it's late!). It could be that individual CMRA's are enforcing earlier deadlines on their customers in order to ensure compliance. There's a copy of the reg at the Postal Services web site (http://www.usps.gov). It's in an Adobe Acrobat format and is on page 21 of PB 21994. Still a major pain, and it doesn't help you with the problem of reprinting business cards, letterhead, etc. Of course, the same thing will happen when the phone company changes your area code... :-) -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 4:14 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Your government at work > > At 03:16 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I recall seeing an article about how businesses were misusing the > >mail-service boxes as part of non-existent addresses; fictitious > >suite numbers were cited. The requirement to use PMB numbers is > >intended to eliminate that type of misuse. There's no doubt that > >the new regulations are legitimate. > > Legal maybe. Legitimate (in the sense of accomplishing the stated > purpose) > no way. > > Requiring a photo ID to rent a box accomplishes some sense of security. > Forcing the use of the letters PMB, refusing to deliver the mail, and > costing each business owner several hundred dollars in no way increases > the > security of the general public. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:53:12 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Question from a "pre-newbie" In-Reply-To: > I would love to hear from anyone > who has started working as a freelance-indexer, particularly those who > have come from non-publishing backgrounds. I live in the UK. I joined the Society of Indexers and took one of the training courses. If you can surf the Web, why not look at one of the Web sites by indexing societies, e.g. www.socind.demon.co.uk/ which has links to the other Societies. Yours in haste, _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:53:12 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: indexing advice In-Reply-To: > numbers. Unfortunately I don't have any money to pay for > professional indexing services or software, so any advice > on how I could do this in word or some other free- or > shareware programme would be gratefully received. I would have thought a database program or a spreadsheet would be better. There is also a shareware program Kindex. See http://www.apg.u-net.com/kindex.htm But for a decent index you really need an expert. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:15:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Your government at work In-Reply-To: <199905281650.rku0d7.a9s.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> At 04:46 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >Still a major pain, and it doesn't help you with the problem of reprinting >business cards, letterhead, etc. Of course, the same thing will happen when >the phone company changes your area code... :-) But the phone company won't stop my phone service and I can send notifications and change stationery at my leisure. In addition to the cost of reprinting stationery, consider all the notifications necessary: 1. Not only present clients but all past clients and anyone else I've corresponded with in the last five years. 2. All vendors in order to receive upgrades and notices about hardware and software. 3. Advertisers to continue receiving ads of interest to my business. 4. Magazine subscriptions. Also, I have no way of correcting people who have my old address but have yet to contact me. And I have no way to enforce that people use the PMB designation even after I send it to them. And what becomes of mail once the USPS refuses to deliver it? If you write me a letter and drop it in a post box, does not the post office have a duty to deliver it? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:01:24 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ralph REID Subject: Re: indexing advice The fast and dirty way I would do it is: 1. Make a copy of the file to work from. 2. In the copy, do global change of the paragraph style of the numbered entries to make it a 'Heading' that is not otherwise used (say, Heading9). 3. Compile a TOC using only that heading as the input. 4. Copy/paste the TOC as TEXT into a new file; edit it as necessary. 5. Drop it into your document. Regards Ralph Reid Sydney Australia -----Original Message----- From: Carol Adlam To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Saturday, 29 May 1999 12:43 AM Subject: indexing advice >Dear list-members > >I am new to indexing, and am trying to solve the problem of >how to create an index with locators by numbered entry >rather than by page. I have been trying to do this in Word >97 for days now, and this list is my last resort. The text >I'm working with is about 1000 pages long, and consists of >small sequential encyclopedia entries, which is why I need >an index which gives entry numbers rather than page >numbers. Unfortunately I don't have any money to pay for >professional indexing services or software, so any advice >on how I could do this in word or some other free- or >shareware programme would be gratefully received. > >---------------------- >Carol Adlam >Department of Russian >Queen's Building >The Queen's Drive >University of Exeter >Exeter EX6 6HE, UK > >Tel: 01392 264211 >WWW: http://www.ex.ac.uk/russian > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:19:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alex Justice Subject: Re: Your government at work Does a lot of the discussion on this list not actually touch on indexing? If this sort of thing is typical, please let me know so that I can unsubscribe. Sincerely, A newuser At 03:52 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail >service (MailBoxes, Etc.) > >Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will >have to: > >- Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID. >- Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box > number in my address. > >If I do not begin using the PMB designation by October 26, the USPS will no >longer deliver mail to MBE. > >I understand that the intent of this is to cut down on the fraudulent use >of mail drops, but to conform to the use of the PMB designation means >reprinting all of my business cards, letter head, envelopes and mailing >labels at a cost of several hundred dollars. > >I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS >regulation and they could not give me one. They said they would call back. > >Anyone got any more dope on this? > >Dick > Alex Justice email: justice@ucla.edu alternate email: teslavision@hotmail.com Student, Dept. of Library and Info. Science, UCLA Los Angeles, California, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:42:21 -0500 Reply-To: salt@inlink.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Your government at work ---------- [...] > And what becomes of mail once the USPS refuses to deliver it? If you write me > a letter and drop it in a post box, does not the post office have a duty to > deliver it? > > Dick The USPS will likely return the "misaddressed" bits to their senders with some misstatement about 'address unknown'. Postal regs are quite arcane. (I read a few years ago in the "New York Times Magazine" that your mailbox is, in effect, their property and they can control it as such.) They do not have to deliver items without proper postage or addressing. In practice, they often manage not to deliver items _with_ proper postage and addressing. I've struck up quite a nice relationship with the neighbors down the road whose house number differs from mine by one digit. We swap items weekly. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:42:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Your government at work At 04:19 PM 5/28/1999 -0700, Alex Justice wrote: >Does a lot of the discussion on this list not actually touch on indexing? If >this sort of thing is typical, please let me know so that I can unsubscribe. If you are new, you probably don't know that virtually everything we discuss on this list IS related to indexing. Even this topic of mailbox addresses is tangentally related, since many (if not most) of us are freelancers, and many of the freelance folks maintain a mailbox address for package delivery. I'd hang around awhile and see for yourself. You will not find a more helpful and useful list for indexers anywhere--beginner or expert, there is almost always at least one person (and usually more) who can answer any query or help with any problem related to indexing, indexing software, or virtually any other related problem. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:47:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Your government at work In-Reply-To: <199905281925.rku9f2.fko.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 04:19 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Does a lot of the discussion on this list not actually touch on indexing? If >this sort of thing is typical, please let me know so that I can unsubscribe. All aspects of indexing, including the business of indexing. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:49:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alex Justice Subject: Re: Your government at work Thank you for your patient and polite reply. At 04:42 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >At 04:19 PM 5/28/1999 -0700, Alex Justice wrote: > >>Does a lot of the discussion on this list not actually touch on indexing? If >>this sort of thing is typical, please let me know so that I can unsubscribe. > >If you are new, you probably don't know that virtually everything we discuss >on this list IS related to indexing. Even this topic of mailbox addresses is >tangentally related, since many (if not most) of us are freelancers, and >many of the freelance folks maintain a mailbox address for package delivery. > >I'd hang around awhile and see for yourself. You will not find a more >helpful and useful list for indexers anywhere--beginner or expert, there is >almost always at least one person (and usually more) who can answer any >query or help with any problem related to indexing, indexing software, or >virtually any other related problem. > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org > Alex Justice email: justice@ucla.edu alternate email: teslavision@hotmail.com Student, Dept. of Library and Info. Science, UCLA Los Angeles, California, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:20:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Your government at work In-Reply-To: <199905282325.QAA16567@mx1.eskimo.com> --=====================_32676786==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It touches on indexing AND the BUSINESS of indexing. This topic is totally germane to the BUSINESS of indexing! Jeri Lee At 04:19 PM 5/28/1999 -0700, you wrote: >Does a lot of the discussion on this list not actually touch on indexing? If >this sort of thing is typical, please let me know so that I can unsubscribe. > >Sincerely, > >A newuser > >At 03:52 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail >>service (MailBoxes, Etc.) >> >>Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will >>have to: >> >>- Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID. >>- Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box >> number in my address. >> >>If I do not begin using the PMB designation by October 26, the USPS will no >>longer deliver mail to MBE. >> >>I understand that the intent of this is to cut down on the fraudulent use >>of mail drops, but to conform to the use of the PMB designation means >>reprinting all of my business cards, letter head, envelopes and mailing >>labels at a cost of several hundred dollars. >> >>I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS >>regulation and they could not give me one. They said they would call back. >> >>Anyone got any more dope on this? >> >>Dick >> >Alex Justice >email: justice@ucla.edu >alternate email: teslavision@hotmail.com >Student, Dept. of Library and >Info. Science, UCLA >Los Angeles, California, USA > Voice Transcription Bringing You Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business 17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104 Renton, Washington 98058-7013 (425) 254-1352 --=====================_32676786==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" It touches on indexing AND the BUSINESS of indexing. 

This topic is totally germane to the BUSINESS of indexing!

Jeri Lee


At 04:19 PM 5/28/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Does a lot of the discussion on this list not actually touch on indexing? If
>this sort of thing is typical, please let me know so that I can unsubscribe.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>A newuser
>
>At 03:52 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Like many of you, I work at home and maintain a business address at a mail
>>service (MailBoxes, Etc.)
>>
>>Today I received a notice that, according to new postal regulations, I will
>>have to:
>>
>>- Reapply for my box with two forms of ID, one of which is a picture ID.
>>- Begin using the letters PMB (for Personal Mail Box) before the box
>>   number in my address.
>>
>>If I do not begin using the PMB designation by October 26, the USPS will no
>>longer deliver mail to MBE.
>>
>>I understand that the intent of this is to cut down on the fraudulent use
>>of mail drops, but to conform to the use of the PMB designation means
>>reprinting all of my business cards, letter head, envelopes and mailing
>>labels at a cost of several hundred dollars.
>>
>>I called the post master's office to try and get a copy of the USPS
>>regulation and they could not give me one.  They said they would call back.
>>
>>Anyone got any more dope on this?
>>
>>Dick
>>
>Alex Justice
>email: justice@ucla.edu
>alternate email: teslavision@hotmail.com
>Student, Dept. of Library and
>Info. Science, UCLA
>Los Angeles, California, USA
>
Voice Transcription
Bringing You Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business
17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104
Renton, Washington  98058-7013
(425) 254-1352
 --=====================_32676786==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:19:43 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Botanical word lists available Recently we've been indexing a couple of large botanical works. In order to spell-check the finished indexes I downloaded a directory of botanical terms from the Web and rearranged it into a long list of 25,000 words found in botanical names. The list begins with abactus abancayense abarema abbevillea abbottianum abbottii abbreviata abchasica and finishes with zygocactus zygomeris zygonerion zygophylla zygophyllum I found that by splitting it in two parts I could attach them to Word as spell-checking dictionaries and make it a lot easier to pick up typos. Would these lists be of value to anyone else? Write privately and let me know if you want a copy: at the end of a week or so I'll either send it out privately or put it up on the Web depending on the level of interest. Jon =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey jonjermey@hermes.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:46:31 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Botanical word lists available What a fabulous idea! Any idea how this could be done for medical terms? What exactly did you do? Did you enter the list in the Word spell check or use something else? Best, Sylvia Coates Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: > Recently we've been indexing a couple of large botanical works. In order to > spell-check the finished indexes I downloaded a directory of botanical terms > from the Web and rearranged it into a long list of 25,000 words found in > botanical names. The list begins with > > abactus > abancayense > abarema > abbevillea > abbottianum > abbottii > abbreviata > abchasica > > and finishes with > > zygocactus > zygomeris > zygonerion > zygophylla > zygophyllum > > I found that by splitting it in two parts I could attach them to Word as > spell-checking dictionaries and make it a lot easier to pick up typos. > > Would these lists be of value to anyone else? Write privately and let me > know if you want a copy: at the end of a week or so I'll either send it out > privately or put it up on the Web depending on the level of interest. > > Jon > =================================== > Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne > Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring > http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey > jonjermey@hermes.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:04:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Alex Justice Unsubscribing Alex - I read, with an interesting blend of irritation and compassion, your query regarding the focus of Index-L. As our erstwhile President used to say: "Let me say this about that." Your expectation of Index-L is unclear, although you obviously are dissatisfied. Index-L is a wonderful forum that is enormously informative and enriching to participants and lurkers alike. But you must understand that professional indexers are real, three-dimensional people who reflect an astonishing diversity of personalities, interests, skills, joys, anxieties, frustrations, minor victories and, most wonderfully, an astonishing amount of arcane knowledge. Some, myself included, are card-carrying curmudgeons. Others scurry along the wainscoting and never make a public expression of any kind. But all of us help and support each other. All of us are involved in the business of Living, of which indexing is only a subset, albeit a large one. Of course we are focussed on indexing, but most of us cannot, and do not wish to, partition our interests so narrowly and meticulously. We lead real lives that extend far beyond the technical details of indexing. And, because we tend to embrace so many facets of life, this diversity often is reflected in our postings. That is what lends so much richness to this forum. Professional indedexing is not a laboratory exercise. To paraphrase Jurassic Park: Life tends to intrude... Now, if you want a sterile, narrowly-focussed treatment of indexing esoterica, I suggest that you acquire a handful of standard texbooks on the subject and closet yourself with them. But if you are serious about indexing as a real-life experience, rather than as an academic exercise, I suggest, strongly, that you bite your lip, open your ears, hang in for a while, and learn what professional indexing (especially freelance indexing) is all about. We would be pleased to have you participate. Unsubscribing from Index-L will not clarify your professional horizons, it will impoverish you. If you will pardon the play on words, your rather peremptory dismissal of Index-L seems to be a ... miscarriage of Justice. Bob