Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9906B"

=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 21:23:57 -0700
Reply-To:     kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Kathy Paparchontis <kpaparchontis@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Hazel's book

Hi All,

I cannot attend the conference but would appreciate it if
anyone could pick up Hazel Bell's book and mail it to me.

This is troublesome, but I will make it worth your while.
Please reply to my personal email address.

thanks,
kp


Kathleen Paparchontis
K & D, Associates
916-344-3846
916-344-9564 (fax)
kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 02:19:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Richard Evans <infodex@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Carolina at Indy

For any Carollina members attending 'Indy, please get in touch with me so
we can set up a chapter get together,


Dick
Room 218
Crowne Plaza
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:07:15 PDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= <jingting@MAGMA.CA>
Subject:      Re: Business Doldrums & Harvey Mackay
In-Reply-To:  <199906041512.LAA04946@mag1.magmacom.com>

Hi. The doldrums do hit with much less impact
if you keep Harvey Mackay's good =3D> networking advice <=3D
in mind. His "Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty"
(<grin> not 'thirty'; Doubleday, 1997) really helped
me network to obtain more contracts. His previous
bestseller, "Swim with the Sharks without Being Eaten
Alive" (Morrow, 1988) also helped =3D> negotiate <=3D
when a contract did come along.

And do you know of Peter Kent's "Making Money
in Technical Writing: Turn Your Writing Skills into
$100,000 a Year" (MacMillan, 1998)? It isn't about
indexing per se but the marketing opportunities
are quite similar. Go for it.

HTH. Cordially,

Yves Jeaurond
jingting@magma.ca
*************************************************************************=
**
The Jingle Tingle--Hear the sounds you want to hear, today.
- bilingual online help design and construction (English & French)
- indexing
- editing
- technical writing, and
- (yes!) jingles

1643 Boyer Road
Gloucester, Ontario
Canada  K1C 3H6
(613) 830-8877; home office
----------
>
> Hi all,
>         A few months ago, I left the security of my library job to
> pursue freelancing full time. I had been doing steady business for abou=
t
> six months with indexing and felt that if I wanted to go further with =
it
> I needed to pursue it full time. It's been about three months now and
> I've only had one indexing job the whole time. Yes I've been contacting
> publishers and sending out resumes. I've contacted people who I knew =
were
> working on books. No go. Is there anyone else having the business
> doldrums this spring and what are you doing about it? Please reply
> directly to me not to the list as I am currently not receiving Index-L =
at
> this time. Thanks.
>
> Regards
> Julia Marshall
> Marshall Indexing Services
> 301-585-8757
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:29:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Business Doldrums

>Julia Marshall wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>         A few months ago, I left the security of my library job to
>> pursue freelancing full time. I had been doing steady business for abou=
>t>> six months with indexing and felt that if I wanted to go further with =
>it>> I needed to pursue it full time. It's been about three months now and
>> I've only had one indexing job the whole time. Yes I've been contacting
>> publishers and sending out resumes. I've contacted people who I knew =
>were>> working on books. No go. Is there anyone else having the business
>> doldrums this spring and what are you doing about it? Please reply
>> directly to me not to the list as I am currently not receiving Index-L =
>at>> this time. Thanks.

First of all, you should be reading INDEX-L--that's networking. Jobs are
posted at times. By contributing to INDEX-L and ASI-L (assuming you are a
member of ASI), you can also get yourself known. That's how some referrals
come, too. Go to indexing conferences and volunteer for ASI. Several of the
people in ASI with whom I have worked have referred work to me and I to
them. So...you DO have time to volunteer...you cannot afford not to. You can
also learn a lot by reading INDEX-L consistently. We don't always have the
discussions like we did a few years ago related to fuzzy pink pajamas!

That said, I have to reiterate that marketing and more marketing is
essential, even if you think you are well set with a few clients. Editors
leave the field or move to another publishing house with a full stable of
indexers. When that happens, you get left out of the stable, without leads.

I personally market several times a year and each time I send out at least
50-100 letters. My rate of return on this effort is about the same as
Janet's, BUT I find that out of the blue I will get a call a few years later
from someone to whom I sent my stuff earlier. So even if the phone doesn't
ring off the wall right away doesn't mean it won't. (See below.) One job
more than pays for the cost of the mailing and xeroxing.

This type of marketing has paid off well enough for me that I have to carve
out free time for myself by scheduling it. And even during my free time, I
do a little research on publishers for whom I would like to work. I just did
something crazy a few weeks ago and subscribed to the online version of LMP
(it costs $216.95 a year); it's wonderful because I save time by being able
to search by subject and thereby find the publishers that might be
interested in my services. (I don't have to drive to the library and try to
find the LMP.) I then open up Word and create my mailing list from the list
in LMP by copying the names/addresses and pasting them in Word. I then do a
mail merge for letters and labels. Saves lots of time.

One thing that I have noticed is that if you are able to squeeze in work
when you are too busy, you will get called again at a more leisurely pace
for future indexes. Be willing to accept work under tight deadlines
sometimes. I also resend my marketing stuff to publishers from whom I never
hear and for whom I REALLY want to work. The other day this paid off: a
publisher called me after I had been beating on their door for four years! I
really wanted to work for them and kept sending my marketing packets to them.

No, I never do cold calls.

Hope this helps.

Cynthia



*****************************************

Cynthia D. Bertelsen
Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services
Specialties: Cookbooks, Food History, Nutrition, Food Writing
cbertel@usit.net
Web page:  http://www.usit.com/cbertel/

"When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no
literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no
social harmony." --Careme
******************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:48:30 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         caledoniaskye@JUNO.COM
Subject:      Subscription

I am very interested in subscribing to Index-L. I hope to become an
Indexer but know very little about the field and how to get started.
Help!  I am also new to the computer , any suggestions. I am wide open to
all the help, suggestions or advice you would care to send my way.
Thanks for your time,
Judith  Rowland
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 13:15:58 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Regan Brown <rbrown@HOOVERS.COM>
Subject:      query re: software

I am in the process of evaluating two products that claim to generate a
concordance/simple index  from QuarkXpress files:

*  Sonar Bookends by Virginia Systems
*  IndeXTension by Vision's Edge

The bulk of my indexing project is company names, corporate officers,
brands, and products (first-level index only with no need for
cross-reference other than See references, e.g:  "IBM. <I>See</I>
International Business Machines"). I am especially  interested in comments
about how well these products handle people's names (differentiating among
11 John Smiths from various companies, for example). In previous years, we
have indexed-tagged in FileMaker Pro on PCs, then painfully extrapolated
index files through MS Word into Quark on the Mac. This year we're hoping to
work directly in Quark on Macs.

Any thoughts, tips, caveats would be greatly appreciated --

Regan Brown
Hoovers, Inc.
Austin, Texas
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:41:59 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Cohen <BECohen653@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)

My only thought is that nowadays you would use:

      International Business Machines. See IBM

because the official name of the company is the abbreviation, not the spelled
out version (ditto FedEx, UPS, and so forth). Don't know exactly when IBM
changed it's name officially, but you have to be careful about establishing
rules for acronyms as cross-references.

I can't speak for any of the software, but I couldn't resist pointing out
that cross-references can't always go from acronyms to spelled out versions.
(You said "any comments would be appreciated" . . .) They have to go from
alternate terms to official terms, and there might be entries that look
inconsistent because of this: the consistency is in using the most current
name as the main entry (just as women are known by their last married name,
when they've taken a spouse's name; military leaders take their highest rank
attained, even when they are mentioned in a book as holding lower ranks; and
countries go under their most current incarnation).

Adherence to a simple rule of "always x-reference from acronyms to
spelled-out versions" will probably violate the rule "always x-ref from old
forms of a name to most recent ones." Which one has precedence?? (In my
opinion, the second rule takes precedence over the former. What's your
opinion? Inquiring minds want to know!)

And what do people call this kind of problem? I think of it as "apparent"
inconsistency versus "actual" inconsistency, but I don't think that sums it
up very elegantly.

In my experience, indexes are full of this kind of "hierarchy of rules"
stuff, and the more indexers can articulate the rules they have used to
prepare an index, the better an editor can edit the index either to adhere to
the hierarchy or to change it according to the editor's preference.
(Otherwise, the editor may just think the indexer was OK about the "apparent"
inconsistency, thinking they didn't notice it.)

Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:01:23 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jan Mucciarone <Janmucc@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Need Avise - ASAP - Please Help

Hi everyone...

Hope you're not all in Indy - or if you are, you all have your laptops with
you and are reading your emails.

I am in a dilemna and need help.  I am a 'Newbie' and have been contacted by
a publishing company today.  They are now planning for future books and they
called me today to see what my availability was.  I told them that I would be
available to start in the next 2 to 3 weeks and they seemed OK with that but
here is the clincher.  They asked me to fax them a list of all the books that
I have indexed.  Seeing that I'm new at this I have only 1 book title to send
them and this was a volunteer project for another publisher who was told they
could use the index for any future printing.  They seemed to like it and said
they would call me for future projects.

When I wrote to the publisher that I spoke to today I mentioned that I could
send them the Index that I created for another publisher, if they so desired,
so I never pretended to be experienced but I never told them I was a Newbie -
that probably would have stopped them right there!

My question ... How do I respond to them tomorrow with this info without
sounding like they shouldn't even bother because I'm so new at this.  I feel
confident that I can do the job.  I have taken the USDA course and the other
publisher seemed to like my work...............ANY ADVICE?????

Thanks in advance
Jan Mucciarone
Elite Indexing Services
janmucc@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:19:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Kate Binder <UrsaKate@SOFTHOME.NET>
Subject:      Re: Need Avise - ASAP - Please Help

Jan--

Here's advice, not from an indexer, but from a full-time freelancer,
anyway:

Can you fax them a copy of the whole index you created for the other
publisher? Or if it's long, the first six pages or so? And then add in,
maybe, a couple of USDA assignments that you're proud of? And explain in
the cover page that these are samples of your work, that you've recently
entered the indexing field, and that you're looking forward to working
with them? Just sort of pretend you never heard the "list" part.

Kate

On 6/08/99 6:01 PM, Jan Mucciarone wrote:

>Hi everyone...
>
>Hope you're not all in Indy - or if you are, you all have your laptops with
>you and are reading your emails.
>
>I am in a dilemna and need help.  I am a 'Newbie' and have been contacted by
>a publishing company today.  They are now planning for future books and they
>called me today to see what my availability was.  I told them that I would be
>available to start in the next 2 to 3 weeks and they seemed OK with that but
>here is the clincher.  They asked me to fax them a list of all the books that
>I have indexed.  Seeing that I'm new at this I have only 1 book title to send
>them and this was a volunteer project for another publisher who was told they
>could use the index for any future printing.  They seemed to like it and said
>they would call me for future projects.
>
>When I wrote to the publisher that I spoke to today I mentioned that I could
>send them the Index that I created for another publisher, if they so desired,
>so I never pretended to be experienced but I never told them I was a Newbie -
>that probably would have stopped them right there!
>
>My question ... How do I respond to them tomorrow with this info without
>sounding like they shouldn't even bother because I'm so new at this.  I feel
>confident that I can do the job.  I have taken the USDA course and the other
>publisher seemed to like my work...............ANY ADVICE?????
>
>Thanks in advance
>Jan Mucciarone
>Elite Indexing Services
>janmucc@aol.com
>



-------------------------------------
Kate Binder
Prospect Hill Publishing Services
kate@prospecthillpub.com / www.prospecthillpub.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 06:29:08 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Need Avise - ASAP - Please Help
In-Reply-To:  <199906091311.GAA18641@decibel.electriciti.com>

Jan:

You are doing great. Just continue to be honest and positive. They want to
trust a vital aspect of their product to your care. A straightforward,
honest approach will reinforce any decision to have you index their works.
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 06:34:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms
In-Reply-To:  <199906091308.GAA18559@decibel.electriciti.com>

I find I more often have an acronym or initialism as a main entry,
following a discussion on this list.

More than one publishing style has the first usage as North American Treaty
Organization (NATO), with NATO used solely thereafter.

As NATO (or plug in another acronym or an initialism) is the most common
usage in text, my main entry will be NATO (North American Treaty
Organization). I cross reference from the full spelled out form, unless the
two entries fall closely together.

Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:43:35 -0300
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Noeline Bridge <nbridge@NB.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Need Avise - ASAP - Please Help

This is often a problem when you're beginning, of course. Probably all of us
have had to decide how to present a little experience in its best light.

Honesty without self-abasement is needed. I think that I would do, is phone
the contact person (the one to whom you're to send the fax), tell him/her up
front that you have compiled one index for so-and-so, that you have taken
the USDA course in indexing, and that you would like to fax her/him a copy
of that index so that the quality of your work can be seen. Alternatively,
if you can't make the phone call, fax a covering note stating the above, and
then fax part or all of your index.

If you do phone, I would suggest asking the publisher about the forthcoming
books. Do you know what this publisher specializes in? If you haven't
already, I would suggest some quick research. There's almost nothing a
prospective client or employer likes better than a prior knowledge of their
business--it shows real interest. Anyway, back to the phone call: armed with
some knowledge of this publisher's output, ask for more details about the
books to be indexed. Are they academic works, or for the general public? Are
they handbooks? If there's anything about the subjects that you know about
or that catch your real interest, say so.

You say you will be available within the next 2-3 weeks...if you're talking
to them and they need you earlier, you're available at that time.

All the best.

Noeline Bridge
BRIDGEWORK
nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca
295 Highfield Street
Moncton, NB E1C 5R4
Canada
phone 506-870-1113
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:44:33 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "D. F. Rossi" <Manlybekin@CS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)

I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe, after
that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
"basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:08:02 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "D. F. Rossi" <Manlybekin@CS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)

Please forgive my implied put down regarding "it's" and "its"--mea culpa, mea
culpa.
Put it down to early morning blues. Don
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:04:23 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms

Don,

Since you seem to know all about right usage, why don't you enlighten the
group on the correct use of "hopefully" and "basically?" Criticism is easy
to give out, but if you don't provide any substance behind it, well, it's
hard to take the criticism very seriously. In other words, criticism has its
place, and that is when it's constructive.

Cynthia



At 11:44 AM 6/9/99 EDT, D. F. Rossi wrote:
>I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
>tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe, after
>that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
>"basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don
>
>



*****************************************

Cynthia D. Bertelsen
Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services
Specialties: Cookbooks, Food History, Nutrition, Food Writing
cbertel@usit.net
Web page:  http://www.usit.com/cbertel/

"When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no
literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no
social harmony." --Careme
******************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:12:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "John R. Sullivan" <John_Sullivan@STRATUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)

I've been teaching business writing for 15 years, and I can tell you that it
is futile to fight against the use of "it's" when "its" is called.

And as far as "hopefully" and "basically" are concerned -- what's "correct"
or "incorrect" changes over time. What's wrong with "Hopefully, people will
stop using "it's" when they should be using "its" -- at least in informal
English? I understand what's being said.

John Sullivan
Stratus Computer

> -----Original Message-----
> From: D. F. Rossi [SMTP:Manlybekin@CS.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 11:45 AM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)
>
> I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
> tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe,
> after
> that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
> "basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:18:45 -0700
Reply-To:     jeanmidd@prodigy.net
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jean Middleton <jeanmidd@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)

"D. F. Rossi" wrote:

> I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
> tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe, after
> that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
> "basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don

How about adding "your" and "you're" to that list?

Jean Middleton
IndexEmpire
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:54:52 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         The Welcomes <lwelcome@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject:      stupid question #1

I'm sure I'll have more soon, so this is stupid question #1, directed to
anyone who can help and (obviously) isn't at at the ASI conference.

Okay, so I'm currently taking the Basic Indexing course through USDA, and
thought I'd try using Cindex to do one of the lessons (#5).  When I print
it out, each alphabetic grouping begins with that capital letter.  Is that
supposed to happen?  Is the lesson going to be graded and returned with a
big red mark through that part (which I don't know how to get rid of
anyway)?

I feel so green.  This might be a good indication that I should play around
with Cindex on my own and not try and use it for the lessons just yet.
RATS!

Thanks to anyone who has the two cents I need.
Laura
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:10:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "M. Jessie Barczak" <jbarczak@CQ.COM>
Subject:      Re: stupid question #1

RTFM

At 01:54 PM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm sure I'll have more soon, so this is stupid question #1, directed to
>anyone who can help and (obviously) isn't at at the ASI conference.
>
>Okay, so I'm currently taking the Basic Indexing course through USDA, and
>thought I'd try using Cindex to do one of the lessons (#5).  When I print
>it out, each alphabetic grouping begins with that capital letter.  Is that
>supposed to happen?  Is the lesson going to be graded and returned with a
>big red mark through that part (which I don't know how to get rid of
>anyway)?
>
>I feel so green.  This might be a good indication that I should play around
>with Cindex on my own and not try and use it for the lessons just yet.
>RATS!
>
>Thanks to anyone who has the two cents I need.
>Laura
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:08:17 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Cohen <BECohen653@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: stupid question #1

You can get rid of the group titles (those capital letters) by setting the
default to "none" under the "Grouping Entries" command in the Document menu.

Not a dumb question at all!

Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:07:30 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Jan C. Wright" <jancw@WRIGHTINFORMATION.COM>
Subject:      Re: stupid question #1
In-Reply-To:  <199906091403.rltb3t.k3v.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com>

That IS supposed to happen. You can turn it off if you want, but then make
sure each alpha group is divided by spaces above it -- we like to see them
broken apart visually. You can certainly just leave it in -- it's fine! At
least with me....

Jan Wright

At 01:54 PM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm sure I'll have more soon, so this is stupid question #1, directed to
>anyone who can help and (obviously) isn't at at the ASI conference.
>
>Okay, so I'm currently taking the Basic Indexing course through USDA, and
>thought I'd try using Cindex to do one of the lessons (#5).  When I print
>it out, each alphabetic grouping begins with that capital letter.  Is that
>supposed to happen?  Is the lesson going to be graded and returned with a
>big red mark through that part (which I don't know how to get rid of
>anyway)?
>
>I feel so green.  This might be a good indication that I should play around
>with Cindex on my own and not try and use it for the lessons just yet.
>RATS!
>
>Thanks to anyone who has the two cents I need.
>Laura


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wright Information Indexing Services
http://www.wrightinformation.com
Jancw@wrightinformation.com
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:21:45 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Cournoyer <cardella@VIDEOTRON.CA>
Subject:      Re: stupid question #1

Laura wrote:
When I print it out, each alphabetic grouping begins with that capital
letter.  Is that
supposed to happen?

I believe you are referring to what Cindex calls Group Title. From your
index, give the command: SET FORMAT. Group title probably says % which tells
Cindex to add the character that begins the group of headings, in this case
letters. Just remove the % and leave the space blank. This is explained on
page 168 in my manual.

Just make sure you have a separation of at least one line between groups of
letters. To do this, give the command SET LAYOUT. The SPACING: groups entry
should be 1.

Linda Cardella Cournoyer
cardella@videotron.ca
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:06:02 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Karen Field <KarenF@TRITECH.COM>
Subject:      Re: stupid question #1

Does this mean what I think it means? If so, I was just wondering if a
response like this to a newbie is the image Index-l really wants to have. If
you have nothing constructive to add, why not just stay silent on an issue?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Jessie Barczak [SMTP:jbarczak@CQ.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 11:10
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      Re: stupid question #1
>
> RTFM
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:19:59 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Toni Williams TPG/SG <towilliams@PROCYONGROUP.COM>
Subject:      Re: stupid question #1

It means exactly what you think and it is unbelievably rude.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen Field [SMTP:KarenF@TRITECH.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 12:06 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      Re: stupid question #1
>
> Does this mean what I think it means? If so, I was just wondering if a
> response like this to a newbie is the image Index-l really wants to have.
> If
> you have nothing constructive to add, why not just stay silent on an
> issue?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: M. Jessie Barczak [SMTP:jbarczak@CQ.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 11:10
> > To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> > Subject:      Re: stupid question #1
> >
> > RTFM
> >
> >
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:10:55 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject:      Medium-Short Rant re Usage

Hi -

Don Rossi wrote:

>I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
>tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe, after
>that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
>"basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers?   - Don<

Yea, Don!!    I mean, like, its basically a great idea!  And hopefully please
add:

1)    "Further" vs. "Farther".     "Fur" is what little animals have.  "Far"
is a distance.  "Further" isn't a kinder, gentler, version of "Farther".  The
opposite of "near" is not "fur".  If you are in NYC and speak of  "a fur
piece" you might mean a mink stole.  If you are in the hills of West
Virginia, "a fur piece" means "on the other side of the mountain".  Storms
don't move "further out to sea".  I mean, like, really, its actually
basically "FARther"!!   Need I go further?

2)    "Despite" vs. "In Spite Of".   Don't know why the awkward and ugly "in
spite of" is used instead of the neat and clean "despite".

3)    "Insure" vs. "Ensure".   Incredible but true:  In a book on American
English usage, some years ago, the editors dismissed "ensure" as "an
Englishism"!  Bah!  "Ensure" means "to make certain that", "Insure' is to
indemnify against loss (e.g., "life insurance").  If these words are used
interchangeably, you can find yourself unable to express simple ideas such
as:  "Ensure that this package is insured", without hearing
"Duhh...Huh...Whaddydhesay?" in response.

4)    And my very absolute hopefully basically to the max favorite:  "Which"
vs. "That".     Hey, guys, "That" is specific (as in "the house that Jack
built") and "which" is nonspecific and generally used in a separate clause
(e.g., "The blossoms, which are yellow, are edible.")

Confusing?  Not really.  If there are red blossoms and yellow blossoms on one
plant, and if only the yellow blossoms are edible, then it is necessary to
specify this as: "The blossoms that are yellow are edible."  Meaning, of
course, "the red ones are not".  That's specific.

But if all the blossoms are yellow there is no need for specificity.  Then
the comment that they are edible is nonspecific.  Thus we have "The blossoms,
which are yellow,  are edible."  Got it?

So Roosevelt was wrong when he coined that immortal but maddeningly incorrect
phrase:  "A day which will live in infamy..."

Note to the Brits:  You almost always get it wrong, but you say it so
gracefully!  Now, before you flame me with a lot of chauvinistic but totally
misplaced outrage, look up that wonderful book, Fowler's "Modern English
Usage" (the older edition, not the wimpy new edition).  Fowler is a Brit
(bless his heart!), and his detailed elucidation of the which/that confusion
is a masterpiece of clear exposition.

BTW, I suggest that Don found a sister organization called "The Society to
Suppress Weatherspeak".  Have you noticed that no weatherperson worth his/her
rain gauge ever says anything in three words if seventeen words will do?  For
example:

Normal English:   "We expect rain tonight."
Weatherspeak:    "We believe that there is 70 percent possibility of
rainshower activity during the overnight hours."

Normal English:    "Tornado"
Weatherspeak:     "Tornadic activity"

Normal English:    "The world will end tonight."
Weatherspeak:     "There is a 97 percent chance of Armageddon activity during
the overnight hours, with brimstonefall approaching 3 to five inches,
accompanied by intense fissuring and eruptive activity.  Basalt levels are
expected to reach twenty to thirty meters in the higher elevations, and
ashfalls will range from ten to fifteen meters throughout our viewing area by
the early morning hours.  Driftng volcanic ash could make driving hazardous,
and motorists are advised to avoid unnecessary travel.   Some tire melting
will occur in the normally warmer interior.  Computer models indicate that
scattered frogfall activity is to be expected in the northern and western
suburbs.  Heraldic trumpeting in excess of 135 decibels could occur
throughout our viewing area. Senior citizens are advised avoid exposure to
excessive ash, heat and light.  Significant mountain-melting activity is
anticipated during the early morning hours, and there is a seventy percent
likelihood of widespread boiling activity of lakes and seas.  Small craft
advisories are in effect.  We rate tomorrow as a probable 1 out of 10, with
some clearing possible in the late afternoon hours.  Remember, our
award-winning Channel 10 Weather team will be here throughout the overnight
hours to bring you the latest information on this major apocalyptic event.

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:02:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms

Pam Rider wrote:

> I find I more often have an acronym or initialism as a main entry,
> following a discussion on this list.
>
> More than one publishing style has the first usage as North American
Treaty
> Organization (NATO), with NATO used solely thereafter.
>
> As NATO (or plug in another acronym or an initialism) is the most common
> usage in text, my main entry will be NATO (North American Treaty
> Organization). I cross reference from the full spelled out form, unless
the
> two entries fall closely together.

Of course, this depends on publisher preference, as well.  While I find the
above to be quite logical and perhaps the preferable choice in this and
similar instances, I have at least one regular client who adamantly insists
that all acronyms be cross-referenced to the name-in-full.  Thus, I would
have to use North American Treaty Organization (NATO), with a
cross-reference from NATO.

OTOH, I think I'll check out IBM, FedEx, and UPS; if Barbara Cohen is
correct that these are those companies' preferred and proper names, I'll
pass that on to my client.

Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:07:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject:      correct usage (was Re: Indexing acronyms)

D. F. Rossi wrote:

> I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
> tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe,
after
> that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
> "basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don

You could enlarge your campaign to include the misuse of the apostrophe in
general.  It is often used (erroneously) in plural nouns.  I see this
especially in advertisements:  Wedding Gown's Cleaned Here!

But as John Sullivan pointed out (and as an ex-teacher, I'm inclined to
agree,) you probably make much of a dent in the problem.

Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:32:10 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Jan C. Wright" <jancw@WRIGHTINFORMATION.COM>
Subject:      Re: correct usage (was Re: Indexing acronyms)
In-Reply-To:  <199906091613.rltimh.gnt.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com>

And if you could, we really need to do something about the blatant
misspelling of the word "avocado." "Avacado" makes me yearn for a red
pen.... Or even "avocoda," which could mean something else entirely,
something having to do with music?

At 04:07 PM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>D. F. Rossi wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
>> tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe,
>after
>> that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
>> "basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don
>
>You could enlarge your campaign to include the misuse of the apostrophe in
>general.  It is often used (erroneously) in plural nouns.  I see this
>especially in advertisements:  Wedding Gown's Cleaned Here!
>
>But as John Sullivan pointed out (and as an ex-teacher, I'm inclined to
>agree,) you probably make much of a dent in the problem.
>
>Kara Pekar
>Wordsmith Indexing Services
>jkpekar@crosslink.net


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wright Information Indexing Services
http://www.wrightinformation.com
Jancw@wrightinformation.com
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:48:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         The Welcomes <lwelcome@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject:      #1...many thanks

Re: my newbie question about Cindex

Thank you to all who were kind enough to give me very helpful information,
including the location for the index students group on-line...THANK YOU SO
MUCH!  For the record, I also appreciate those who linked arms on behalf of
the reputation of Index-L.

Thanks again.
Laura
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:19:17 -0600
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Caroline Parks <cparks@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)
In-Reply-To:  <199906091146.rlt325.erg.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com>

and hey, how about the excessive use (& usually misuse) of "comprises"?  In
my brief stint as a copyeditor (an incredibly frustrating and unrewarded
job!) I wrote notes to almost every author that "comprises" means
"includes" or "consists of", not "composes" or "makes up," or worse, that
"is comprised of" is hideously wrong....recently I had to write two very
detailed email messages to an editor explaining what was wrong with the
heading "What Comprises A Directory Service?"....and I'm still not sure he
got it.  For some reason, writers think it makes them sound more
erudite....the problem is, most readers don't even know what it means, so
why use it at all?

Well, having joined the fray, now I have to make a comment about this
thread.  Obviously we indexers tend to have a thing about preciseness (did
I hear someone mutter "anal"?), which we would all agree is essential for
our work.  OTOH...I hope the index-l watercooler is one place where we can
let down our hair, so to speak, and not have to lose sleep (of which some
of us get precious little as deadlines approach...) over the keyboard
equivalent of crossing every 'i' and dotting every 't'.....

Writing/speaking for public  consumption is one thing, but among friends, I
hope we can loosen up & allow a digital mumble or on-screen lapse now &
then.   ;-)

Caroline

At 11:44 AM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
>tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe, after
>that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
>"basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don

__________________________________________________________
|
|   Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence
|
|   Indexing services for Books, Technical documents,
|   Software documentation, and Online help systems
|
|   Tijeras, NM
|   505-286-2738
|   cparks@mindspring.com
|
|   "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim."
|_________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:30:58 -0800
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Blythe Woolston <picapica@PACBELL.NET>
Subject:      its/it's  aargh!

Keep an eye out for the very nasty mutant its' while you're at it.

I swear, the last book I proofread used all three randomly. I guess the
notion is that it's/its/its' bound to be right part of the time. Both
the author and the editor had to be clueless for the errors to show up
in the proof. Sigh...

When I left teaching I joked about how great it was going to be to read
books free of freshman comp. errors. Well, I know better now.

Blythe
picapica@pacbell.com


<<I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe,
after
that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
"basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don>>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:59:32 -0700
Reply-To:     nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage

I used to be one of those who cringed when Impact
the Noun got converted into Impact the Verb.   Last year
when an editor said an author's index needed to be
"bulked," I confess I experienced a slight bit of unease.
I have grown fond of Bulk the Verb, however, and that
index definitely needed to be bulked.  So, I bulked it.  OK,
I admit that I like it better in the passive voice, but I love
the connotation of increased weight, something "enlarge"
just doesn't quite match.  I mean, like, I made it weighty or
weightier.  Heavy, man.

Let us not forget the immortal words of Winston Churchill,
who turned a phrase or two in his day.   Speaking of
the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition,
he said: "It is a rule up with which we should not put."
Something to live by.... er... Something by which to live.

HOWEVER.............

>So Roosevelt was wrong when he coined that immortal but maddeningly
incorrect
>phrase:  "A day which will live in infamy..."
>
I am really shocked that  FDR could have made such an error.
The animosity of Republicans was totally misdirected.  His
domestic programs pale to insignificance in comparison to
this blunder.   I wonder if the Japanese caught this?  Tokyo
Rose surely sneared at FDR's bad grammar at some point.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:27:56 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject:      Tokyo Rose By Any Other Name...

Dear St. Nick -

You wrote:

>I am really shocked that  FDR could have made such an error.
>The animosity of Republicans was totally misdirected.  His
>domestic programs pale to insignificance in comparison to
>this blunder.   I wonder if the Japanese caught this?  Tokyo
>Rose surely sneared at FDR's bad grammar at some point.<

Well, you're quite right, of course.  There was a powerful but little-known
conservative group named "Grammarians Against the New Deal"  who worked
tirelessly with the clandestine "Abraham Lincoln Brigade Against Rampant
Acronyms" to bring down "That Man In the White House."  Alas, they failed
because none of them had a spare dime (as in "Brother, Can You Spare A...)
for bringing their cause before the people, and "A day which shall live in
infamy" now is immortalized  in history books throughout the land.

"Mommy!  Mommy!   The teacher said it should be "That" and not "Which"!
"Hush, child!  If it's good enough for the President it's good enough for us!
  Now hush up and eat your NRA/CCC/TVA alphabet soup!"

But Nicholas - -you'd better have your elves fix your spell-checker!  I mean,
really.....
Tokyo Rose "sneared at"?    No sleigh ride for you this Christmas!

(signed) Dancer & Prancer
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:44:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Karen Field <KarenF@TRITECH.COM>
Subject:      More ranting on grammar

Has anyone spent a day or two listening to radio and TV ads and newscasts
for grammatical violations lately? They're rampant. "Which" appears as a
standard now where "that" belongs. Journalists and newscasters make that
mistake unabashedly. Another example: In an ad for Sylvan Learning Center
(check out the irony there), one of the actor/students says, "The last piece
of the puzzle came together." Mixed metaphors, anyone?

Finally, here's one of my favorites, which I see frequently in the software
documentation world: "The XYZ dialog box displays." Arrrggghhh.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:55:18 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Karen Field <KarenF@TRITECH.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar

My hero! When I worked as Editor at Intuit in San Diego, I edited the phrase
to "The XYZ dialog box appears."--because that's pretty much what it does;
it appears out of nowhere. Glad to know there are others in software
documentation who retain a respect for the language. Most of the tech
writers I've worked with, including some at Intuit, haven't a clue.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Schultz, Darrel [SMTP:Darrel_Schultz@jdedwards.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 15:51
> To:   'Karen Field '
> Subject:      RE: More ranting on grammar
>
>  It'll please you to know that as an editor for a large software firm here
> in Denver, I've taken on as a personal crusade the effort to make all of
> our
> writers aware that display is a transitive verb and must take an object.
> We
> edit your phrase to say "The system displays the xyz dialog box" or some
> variation thereof.
> Darrel Schultz
> J.D. Edwards
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen Field
> To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Sent: 6/9/99 4:44 PM
> Subject: More ranting on grammar
>
> Has anyone spent a day or two listening to radio and TV ads and
> newscasts
> for grammatical violations lately? They're rampant. "Which" appears as a
> standard now where "that" belongs. Journalists and newscasters make that
> mistake unabashedly. Another example: In an ad for Sylvan Learning
> Center
> (check out the irony there), one of the actor/students says, "The last
> piece
> of the puzzle came together." Mixed metaphors, anyone?
>
> Finally, here's one of my favorites, which I see frequently in the
> software
> documentation world: "The XYZ dialog box displays." Arrrggghhh.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:00:43 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Karen Field <KarenF@TRITECH.COM>
Subject:      Apologies re: more ranting

Sorry. My email to Darrel wasn't intended for The List. Please no hate mail
on my observation on tech writers. There are plenty who appreciate the
intricacies of the language and thus use the language well. It just seems to
be a field in which many people "drop in" from other fields, so a love of
the language is often not the attracting force of tech writing for them.

Have a good evening all.

Karen
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:20:37 +1200
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Marite Tweeddale <marite@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)

How do you use "less and fewer" or are they interchangeable.  Sometimes I
really think one sounds better than the other, but I don't know why.  Is
there a correct usage?

Marite

-----Original Message-----
From: Caroline Parks <cparks@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, 10 June 1999 09:21
Subject: Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)


>and hey, how about the excessive use (& usually misuse) of "comprises"?  In
>my brief stint as a copyeditor (an incredibly frustrating and unrewarded
>job!) I wrote notes to almost every author that "comprises" means
>"includes" or "consists of", not "composes" or "makes up," or worse, that
>"is comprised of" is hideously wrong....recently I had to write two very
>detailed email messages to an editor explaining what was wrong with the
>heading "What Comprises A Directory Service?"....and I'm still not sure he
>got it.  For some reason, writers think it makes them sound more
>erudite....the problem is, most readers don't even know what it means, so
>why use it at all?
>
>Well, having joined the fray, now I have to make a comment about this
>thread.  Obviously we indexers tend to have a thing about preciseness (did
>I hear someone mutter "anal"?), which we would all agree is essential for
>our work.  OTOH...I hope the index-l watercooler is one place where we can
>let down our hair, so to speak, and not have to lose sleep (of which some
>of us get precious little as deadlines approach...) over the keyboard
>equivalent of crossing every 'i' and dotting every 't'.....
>
>Writing/speaking for public  consumption is one thing, but among friends, I
>hope we can loosen up & allow a digital mumble or on-screen lapse now &
>then.   ;-)
>
>Caroline
>
>At 11:44 AM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
>>tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe,
after
>>that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
>>"basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers? Don
>
>__________________________________________________________
>|
>|   Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence
>|
>|   Indexing services for Books, Technical documents,
>|   Software documentation, and Online help systems
>|
>|   Tijeras, NM
>|   505-286-2738
>|   cparks@mindspring.com
>|
>|   "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim."
>|_________________________________________________________
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:44:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Marlene London <Profindex@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Less vs. fewer

I'm so glad Marite Tweeddale asked, as this is one of my pet peeves.

Fewer refers to number.  Less refers to degree or amount, e.g.:

Less effort (a smaller degree of) was put forth by the organizers, and thus
fewer people (a smaller number of) attended.

[From my well-worn copy of "Reference Manual for Stenographers and
Typists."


While I have your attention, just wanted to share my good news.  Having
spent a full month on proofreading and indexing a chronology of world
history, I was thrilled today to receive the final book (without having
asked for it), with my name indicated in the front matter as proofreader
and indexer.  The more than 35,000 entries represent a very densely indexed
tome.  Yes, that's what the publisher wanted...  And I'm proud of the
result!

Marlene London
Professional Indexing Services
Profindex@worldnet.att.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:01:59 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage
In-Reply-To:  <199906092206.PAA02739@decibel.electriciti.com>

I learned (but could be wrong) that the Churchill preposition quote was
following a "correction" by his secretary. Sir Winston, I  thought,  wrote
on the edited copy:

"This is pomposity up with which I will not put."


>Let us not forget the immortal words of Winston Churchill,
>who turned a phrase or two in his day.   Speaking of
>the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition,
>he said: "It is a rule up with which we should not put."
>Something to live by.... er... Something by which to live.
>

Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:28:34 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Kristine Early <kristine@EARLYPHOTO.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar

I'm normally a lurker, but I had to add my two cents on this one.

Has anyone noticed the use of adjectives for adverbs in advertising recently?
For example: "Use our product to clean your house fast and easy."

It's driving me crazy!


Karen Field wrote:

> Has anyone spent a day or two listening to radio and TV ads and newscasts
> for grammatical violations lately? They're rampant. "Which" appears as a
> standard now where "that" belongs. Journalists and newscasters make that
> mistake unabashedly. Another example: In an ad for Sylvan Learning Center
> (check out the irony there), one of the actor/students says, "The last piece
> of the puzzle came together." Mixed metaphors, anyone?
>
> Finally, here's one of my favorites, which I see frequently in the software
> documentation world: "The XYZ dialog box displays." Arrrggghhh.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:39:59 -0700
Reply-To:     nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Tokyo Rose By Any Other Name...

Hmmmm.  The story below sounds apocryphal.  Maybe an urban
legend originating with William Safire?  Anyway, there never
was an Abraham Lincoln Brigade.   After heavy losses in the
Battle of Jarama the Abraham Lincoln Battalion and the
George Washington Battalion were merged into one Abraham
Lincoln Battalion.  It was a unit in one of the International Brigades,
the 15th I believe.  See how these things get started?  I think they
did object to the description of the bombing of Guernica as urban
renewal.
>
>Well, you're quite right, of course.  There was a powerful but little-known
>conservative group named "Grammarians Against the New Deal"  who worked
>tirelessly with the clandestine "Abraham Lincoln Brigade Against Rampant
>Acronyms" to bring down "That Man In the White House."  Alas, they failed
>because none of them had a spare dime (as in "Brother, Can You Spare A...)
>for bringing their cause before the people, and "A day which shall live in
>infamy" now is immortalized  in history books throughout the land.
>

How can I respond to the unprovoked and dastardly attack of linguistic
oneupspersonship?  (I know it's a mouth full, but we are talking about
language
here).  Do you have any idea how hard it is the get a spellchecker elf these
days?   They all want more than $2 a page too.  Outrageous.   Mine told me:
'Snearly right!  Sent him to clean the reindeer stables.   Be gentle.

>But Nicholas - -you'd better have your elves fix your spell-checker!  I
mean,
>really.....
>Tokyo Rose "sneared at"?    No sleigh ride for you this Christmas!
>
>(signed) Dancer & Prancer
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:38:28 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: Oneupspersonship

Nicholas -

You wrote:

>Hmmmm.  The story below sounds apocryphal.  Maybe an urban
>legend originating with William Safire?  ... <snip>...     See how these
things get
>started?  I think they did object to the description of the bombing of
Guernica as >urban renewal.<

Although William S. has been accused of blowing smoke (e.g., the expression
"Where there's smoke there's Safire"), in this case he is innocent.  The
"Abraham Lincoln Brigade Against Rampant Acronyms" derives its name from
Abraham L., not form the Spanish Civil War (which was notably uncivil).  As
you know, A.L. said: "You can abbreviate all of the agencies some of the
time, and some of the agencies all of the time, but it's as confusing as hell
to abbreviate all of the agencies all of the time."  And he was a Republican!

BTW, the objection of some critics to Guernica was not that it was urban
renewal, but that it was bad art...

You also wrote:

>How can I respond to the unprovoked and dastardly attack of linguistic
>oneupspersonship?  (I know it's a mouth full, but we are talking about
language >here).  Do you have any idea how hard it is the get a spellchecker
elf these days?   >They all want more than $2 a page too.  Outrageous.   Mine
told me: 'Snearly right!  >Sent him to clean the reindeer stables.   Be
gentle.<

Hardly a dastardly and unprovoked attack, my red-jacketed, ruddy-cheeked,
bearded old Icon!   Merely a gentle reminder that wide-eyed rugrats all over
the world wait breathlessly for your annual "Ho-Ho-Ho", and that you carry a
heavy burden of responsibility (as well as a lot of lard).

Your typo (I give you the benefit of the doubt here) could lead these
impressionable tykes down the slippery slope to Compulsive Misspelling and
traumatic embarrassment before their overachieving little peers.  School
buses all across the land would ring with raucous cries of "Mere Snear!  Mere
Snear!  Jimmy is a Mere Snear!"  And from there is is but a step to Bulking,
Hosting, Impacting, Prioritizing, and - shudder - - Ham 'n' Eggs!

Now, I thought that "oneupspersonship" referred to a UPS truck with only one
driver.

Regarding paying your spellchecking elves $2/page:  No wonder they are
disaffected.  After you concluded that agreement with Lucas for distribution
rights to Star Wars triviabilia (My word- - like it?) you have been
stoop-shouldered carrying your loot to the bank.  Ease up, Nicholas, and give
'em a raise.

Anyway, the reindeer stables are easier to clean than the Augean Stables!

Well, must go now.  Please give my regards to Alexandra!

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:07:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         janetshay <djshay@PRTCNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar
In-Reply-To:  <01JC7JLG9QKG8WYZR9@SMTP00.InfoAve.Net>

--=====================_24913413==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Dear List Members,

        I have been on the list for a week now, and have been very
interested in
your discussions.  I am a fifth grade teacher and I am currently working
toward
a Master's Degree in Library and Information Science from USC.  I am half
through the program.  One assignment for a class I am taking now was to
join an
online discussion list, observe the discussions, and report back to our class
list serve information on any especially interesting discussions.  I chose
this
list at random.  I had never heard of/thought of indexing as a job in itself.
I guess I had always just thought the publisher or even the author compiled
the
index .  I had no idea that people just did indexing for a career, or that
they
did it out of their homes.
I suppose to you all I sound very uninformed or ignorant.  Anyway, as I
understand from your discussions, as an indexer, you take a book that has been
written and compile the index for it?  I can't imagine WANTING to do this
for a
living!  I think I would go nuts.  It sounds like a punishment to me!  Is it
not grueling? I am just glad that there are people like you who want to do
it.
It takes all kinds... :)  I hope to be a school media specialist.  To some,
that probably would be torture...

        Regarding the grammar errors, I have been trying for 14 years now to
teach 4th and 5th graders about the  same types of things you have mentioned.
They  just never seem to learn....  People get "set in their ways" at a very
early age, and unless it is important to them to change those ways, you
probably won't.  :(

        Thanks,


At 05:28 PM 6/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm normally a lurker, but I had to add my two cents on this one.
>
>Has anyone noticed the use of adjectives for adverbs in advertising recently?
>For example: "Use our product to clean your house fast and easy."
>
>It's driving me crazy!
>
>
>Karen Field wrote:
>
>> Has anyone spent a day or two listening to radio and TV ads and newscasts
>> for grammatical violations lately? They're rampant. "Which" appears as a
>> standard now where "that" belongs. Journalists and newscasters make that
>> mistake unabashedly. Another example: In an ad for Sylvan Learning Center
>> (check out the irony there), one of the actor/students says, "The last
piece
>> of the puzzle came together." Mixed metaphors, anyone?
>>
>> Finally, here's one of my favorites, which I see frequently in the software
>> documentation world: "The XYZ dialog box displays." Arrrggghhh.
>
Janet Shay
djshay@prtcnet.com
--=====================_24913413==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html><div>Dear List Members,</div>
<br>
<div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>I
have been on the list for a week now, and have been very interested in
your discussions.&nbsp; I am a fifth grade teacher and I am currently
working toward a Master's Degree in Library and Information Science from
USC.&nbsp; I am half through the program.&nbsp; One assignment for a
class I am taking now was to join an online discussion list, observe the
discussions, and report back to our class list serve information on any
especially interesting discussions.&nbsp; I chose this list at
random.&nbsp; I had never heard of/thought of indexing as a job in
itself.&nbsp; I guess I had always just thought the publisher or even the
author compiled the index .&nbsp; I had no idea that people just did
indexing for a career, or that they did it out of their homes.&nbsp;
</div>
<div>I suppose to you all I sound very uninformed or ignorant.&nbsp;
Anyway, as I understand from your discussions, as an indexer, you take a
book that has been written and compile the index for it?&nbsp; I can't
imagine WANTING to do this for a living!&nbsp; I think I would go
nuts.&nbsp; It sounds like a punishment to me!&nbsp; Is it not grueling?
I am just glad that there are people like you who want to do it.&nbsp; It
takes all kinds... :)&nbsp; I hope to be a school media specialist.&nbsp;
To some, that probably would be torture...</div>
<br>
<div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Regarding
the grammar errors, I have been trying for 14 years now to teach 4th and
5th graders about the&nbsp; same types of things you have
mentioned.&nbsp; They&nbsp; just never seem to learn....&nbsp; People get
&quot;set in their ways&quot; at a very early age, and unless it is
important to them to change those ways, you probably won't.&nbsp;
:(</div>
<br>
<div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Thanks,
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div>At 05:28 PM 6/9/99 -0700, you wrote:</div>
<div>&gt;I'm normally a lurker, but I had to add my two cents on this
one.</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Has anyone noticed the use of adjectives for adverbs in
advertising recently?</div>
<div>&gt;For example: &quot;Use our product to clean your house fast and
easy.&quot;</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;It's driving me crazy!</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Karen Field wrote:</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; Has anyone spent a day or two listening to radio and TV ads
and newscasts</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; for grammatical violations lately? They're rampant.
&quot;Which&quot; appears as a</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; standard now where &quot;that&quot; belongs. Journalists
and newscasters make that</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; mistake unabashedly. Another example: In an ad for Sylvan
Learning Center</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; (check out the irony there), one of the actor/students
says, &quot;The last piece</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; of the puzzle came together.&quot; Mixed metaphors,
anyone?</div>
<div>&gt;&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; Finally, here's one of my favorites, which I see frequently
in the software</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; documentation world: &quot;The XYZ dialog box
displays.&quot; Arrrggghhh.</div>
&gt;
<br>

<font face="Lucida Calligraphy" color="#FF00FF">Janet Shay<br>
djshay@prtcnet.com</font></html>

--=====================_24913413==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:08:23 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: Astonishment at Discovering Indexing

Janet -

Loved your sense of humor!   But your astonishment seems odd for a teacher
and grad student in Library & Information Science.  I have sent you,
off-list, a note I wrote on indexing.  Might clarify something.

The truth is that Index-L is a vast fiction, run by three teenage hackers in
Bulgaria.  Indexes are contrived at night by anonymous elves and trolls
working in caves.  There really are no indexers.   Index-l postings are
computer-generated, as anyone can plainly see merely by reading them.  After
the passage of Universal Suffrage and the Emancipation Proclamation,
indentured indexing has diminished significantly in Western civilization.
Involuntary indexing by prisoners of war was outlawed in 1947 by the Third
Geneva Convention.

Perhaps indexers did something evil in a previous incarnation.  But consider
this:

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and an MLS.   Many indexers have
law degrees, advanced degrees in the sciences and humanities, and some just
wandered in....   I ran a technical information center for a major aerospace
conglomerate for many years.  I wouldn't go back to that for all the tea in
China!  Several others have abandoned law careers, etc.

For all I know, some of our best indexers learned their trade in the
slammer...  Remember, a bad day indexing is demonstrably better than a good
day stamping out license plates!   Or, at least it is most of the time.....

Why would you want to be a librarian and information specialist if you
disparage orderly techniques for information retrieval?  It would seem that
there might be more appealing career opportunities as social activities
coordinator on a cruise line....

Best wishes.   Keep your mind open!!

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:00:57 -0700
Reply-To:     jeanmidd@prodigy.net
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jean Middleton <jeanmidd@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      bring and take

Since Index-L seems to be bringing up pet peeves in usage, I must
mention one of mine (although "which and that" and "less and fewer" are
high on my list).  A fellow editor of mine would stop by my office and
say, "I'm going to bring this document over to the program office now."
I cringed and wanted to yell, "No, you are going to TAKE it to the
program office, and then you will BRING it back."  I knew her for 15
years and never had the nerve to tell her the difference, and she is
still oblivious to the difference.

I believe, as someone on the list said, that people get set in their
speech patterns early, and if they do not have the "ear," they never
learn, and only those few of us who care about such things cringe. That
is why I so happily left teaching English for editing. In editing I just
changed the words without having to try to change the people.

Jean Middleton
IndexEmpire
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:12:54 +1000
Reply-To:     diagonal@hermes.net.au
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne <diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU>
Subject:      New AusSI newsletter on Web

By the time you read this the AusSI newsletter for June should be available
on the Web at

http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/anl/9905jun

------------------------------
Jonathan Jermey
Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers
http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:16:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "John R. Sullivan" <John_Sullivan@STRATUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: bring and take

Jean wrote:

> A fellow editor of mine would stop by my office and
> say, "I'm going to bring this document over to the program office now."
> I cringed and wanted to yell, "No, you are going to TAKE it to the
> program office, and then you will BRING it back."  I knew her for 15
> years and never had the nerve to tell her the difference, and she is
> still oblivious to the difference.
>
>
        Definition of "bring," courtesy of AHD: "To take with oneself to a
place"

        Doesn't sound to me like anything to sweat about. I DO know the
difference, yet I continue to use "bring" where purists would insist I use
"take." Somehow, miraculously, the people I'm speaking to (to whom I'm
speaking? nah!) manage to figure out what I mean.

        John Sullivan

        [Sullivan, John]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:37:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Brian Noggle <bnoggle@DRA.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen Field [SMTP:KarenF@TRITECH.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 5:44 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      More ranting on grammar
>
> Finally, here's one of my favorites, which I see frequently in the
> software
> documentation world: "The XYZ dialog box displays." Arrrggghhh.
>
Tech Writer in self defense here:

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, displays is now an
intransitive verb in the computer world.  I think that someone thought
"appears" was too magical, and in the world where responsibility is rarely
assigned, "the software/computer/terminal displays" would be too
anthropomorphic.

Brian J. Noggle
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:43:01 +0100
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Mark Miller <mark@MARKMILLER.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Indexing acronyms (spinoff from software query)
In-Reply-To:  <E10rkYU-0004I8-00.1999-06-09-16-46-18@mail8.svr.pol.co.uk>

Twopennorth from the UK, and from an ex-English teacher:

1. Language is terribly complicated. It's astonishing that anyone gets even
50% of it right.

2. Language is in a constant state of change -- always has been, always
will be. 'Hopefully' as a sentence adverb is now installed. Some changes
are clearly useful; others seem regrettable but rarely seem to do any harm.

3. Much language usage wasn't settled until the advent of widely
distributed print, a very recent event in the history of language. And not
many people were required to conform to the standard usages until the
advent of universal education -- an extremely recent event, the effects of
which are still being worked out, and cannot yet be at all clear. The
apostrophe is very difficult to learn in all its detail; unfortunately many
people seem to have learned that it goes before an 's' at the end of a
word. I saw Bro's (as in Moss Bros.) the other day, sign-written on the
side of a van. This inspired no confidence in the signwriter's punctuation,
but I expect the van-owner's business does no less good a job because of that.

4. You may have noticed that 'unfortunately' above functions in exactly the
same way as 'hopefully'. But who objects to 'unfortunately'?

5. You may also have noticed that I have started a sentence with 'and' and
another with 'but'.

6. I entirely agree that it's and its _should_ be distinguished -- and that
'on his part' and 'on his behalf' have completely different meanings (my
current pet hate) -- but I've given up worrying about it. If I'm editing or
proofreading I correct them; in an index I get them right. Otherwise, life
is too short; there are far more important things to be busy or relaxed
with. And a bunch of indexers attacking the matter will not make one iota
of difference.

I suppose that's actually sixpennorth!

Mark Miller
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:47:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar

Hello everyone:

    I have been reading much of the rantings with amusement.  I cannot
contest most of their validity.  Still, I wonder why all of you are
ranting.  Remember, you have teachers guiding our children who do not
know the English language and its grammar as well as we do.  Why would
you expect their students (who become adults) to know it?

    Second, some of the rules you mentioned, e.g., sentences cannot end
with a preposition, are arbitrary and were created by grammarians with
way too much time on their hands around the turn of the century.  They
have no basis in fact.

    Third, and finally, you cannot stop the hands of time.  No committee
on English exists in the U.S.I. (United States of Illiterates) as does
in France.  And, until you form a national organization to rein in the
madness, standardize the teaching of children, make sure all teachers
are qualified, and stop Madison Avenue from creatively twisting our
words, you are merely chasing your tail.  And THAT is a tale to be told.

    Rob

Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
P.O. Box 3529
Saint Louis, MO  63143-3529

314.726.0288
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:56:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Hopefully and Basically

Dear Collective Wisdom,

I agree with Mark Miller that language is always in flux and that we would
not be speaking the way that we do today had it not been for this type of
change. Afterall, my ancestors who came over here in 1642 from Yorkshire,
England no doubt spoke in a much different fashion than I do today! So the
sorts of things that we are complaining about (displays, etc.) may well be
the wave of the future. Changes become dogma after a while. That is the fun
thing about language. For a great read on the changeability of the English
language, read Bill Bryson's book, The Mother Tongue: English & How It Got
That Way.

I must admit that people who mess up on "it's" and "its" get my goat! In
addition, those who fail to differentiate between "effect" and "affect" are
lucky that they cannot hear my teeth gnashing. I have the same reaction to
the misuse of "ensure" and "insure."

However, I might be one of those people who supposedly (can I use it that
way!!!) corrupts the usage of "hopefully and "basically." So I really want
someone more learned on this subject to set me straight here:

I have a good book* that debunks the idea that "hopefully" cannot be used as
in "Hopefully, I will go to the ASI conference next year." Is the bad usage
something like the statement "He will hopefully get there on time for once?"
It looks like Webster's 10th Collegiate Dictionary suggests that something
like "Basically, they are good people." is correct usage. Would a statement
like "I basically can't stand to eat liver in any shape or form." be
considered incorrect? Please tell me!

Although this grammar bashing may seem tangentially related to indexing, I
think the discussion (as it has evolved) could be seen as a part of the
dilemma that we as indexers face every day in choosing concise terminology
to express complex ideas. We need to be aware of the nuances of our
language, even the stuff that made NO sense in eighth-grade sentence
diagramming exercises (do they even teach that horror anymore?). I must have
been asleep during the hopefully/basically sessions.

*The Gregg Reference Manual (8th ed., 1996), by William A. Sabin.


Cynthia



*****************************************

Cynthia D. Bertelsen
Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services
Specialties: Cookbooks, Food History, Nutrition, Food Writing
cbertel@usit.net
Web page:  http://www.usit.com/cbertel/

"When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no
literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no
social harmony." --Careme
******************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:21:24 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "M. Jessie Barczak" <jbarczak@CQ.COM>
Subject:      Re: Astonishment at Discovering Indexing

Three Cheers!  I am attracted to indexing precisely (!) because of being able to
 create order in an ever escalating chaotic world.



M. J. Barczak

Washington, D.C.


At 12:08 AM 6/10/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Janet -

>

>Loved your sense of humor!   But your astonishment seems odd for a teacher

>and grad student in Library & Information Science.  I have sent you,

>off-list, a note I wrote on indexing.  Might clarify something.

>

>The truth is that Index-L is a vast fiction, run by three teenage hackers in

>Bulgaria.  Indexes are contrived at night by anonymous elves and trolls

>working in caves.  There really are no indexers.   Index-l postings are

>computer-generated, as anyone can plainly see merely by reading them.  After

>the passage of Universal Suffrage and the Emancipation Proclamation,

>indentured indexing has diminished significantly in Western civilization.

>Involuntary indexing by prisoners of war was outlawed in 1947 by the Third

>Geneva Convention.

>

>Perhaps indexers did something evil in a previous incarnation.  But consider

>this:

>

>I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and an MLS.   Many indexers have

>law degrees, advanced degrees in the sciences and humanities, and some just

>wandered in....   I ran a technical information center for a major aerospace

>conglomerate for many years.  I wouldn't go back to that for all the tea in

>China!  Several others have abandoned law careers, etc.

>

>For all I know, some of our best indexers learned their trade in the

>slammer...  Remember, a bad day indexing is demonstrably better than a good

>day stamping out license plates!   Or, at least it is most of the time.....

>

>Why would you want to be a librarian and information specialist if you

>disparage orderly techniques for information retrieval?  It would seem that

>there might be more appealing career opportunities as social activities

>coordinator on a cruise line....

>

>Best wishes.   Keep your mind open!!

>

>Bob

>

>

<italic>"The bane of my existence is doing things that I know the
computer could do for me."

</italic>

Dan Connolly, "The XML Revolution" (1 Oct. 1998)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:20:19 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Stroup <indexa2z@THE-SPA.COM>
Subject:      word rant

Well, I'm joining in here to share a grammarian pet peeve or two and whine a bit
 because I'm missing the conference....
When did "celebrity" become something someone possesses instead of just being a
 noun or an adjective? Am I making myself clear here?
        i.e. She was uncomfortable with her new celebrity.
                instead of
                She was uncomfortable being a celebrity.
                or
                She was uncomfortable with her new celebrity status.

AND

        Why say "go ahead and turn the dial" instead of "turn the dial now." It
 seems the first I heard this usage was back in the days of my first computer
 and its glitches; tech helpers (available free, by phone, in those dark ages)
 would say "Go ahead of click on the etc." Now I hear "go ahead and" everywhere
 !!!

end of rant and whine.
Barbara**********************
Barbara Stroup, Indexer
30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108
413 785-1835     e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com

****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:23:34 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Elizabeth Bolton <ebolton@CI.KEENE.NH.US>
Subject:      Another Grammar Post

Or actually a pronunciation post/problem.  I am also a long-term lurker but
can't resist the opportunity to share my current pet peeve.

Has anyone else noticed how the word height is often pronounced nowadays as
though it has a final "h"?  I guess it has something to do with "width &
heighth"  - I'm often tempted to try to work "weighth" into the conversation
in response.

Once I noticed this for the first time I seemed to hear it every day -
multiple times!!  I think it is being spread by the decorating and home
repair shows on HGTV (a weakness of mine).  The shows are filled with
affectations, mispronounciations, etc.  My other pet peeve (actually I have
many!!) is the current fad of pronouncing the "T" in often.  Shiver, shiver.

I second the recommendation of Bill Bryson's books.  I highly recommend any
that he has written - he's hiliarious.  The other book that is a gem is The
Beastly Guide to Mispronounciations or something like that - it came out
early in 1999.

Liz Bolton




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pam Rider [mailto:prider@ELECTRICITI.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 7:02 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject: Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage
>
>
> I learned (but could be wrong) that the Churchill preposition
> quote was
> following a "correction" by his secretary. Sir Winston, I
> thought,  wrote
> on the edited copy:
>
> "This is pomposity up with which I will not put."
>
>
> >Let us not forget the immortal words of Winston Churchill,
> >who turned a phrase or two in his day.   Speaking of
> >the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition,
> >he said: "It is a rule up with which we should not put."
> >Something to live by.... er... Something by which to live.
> >
>
> Pam Rider
> Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
> prider@electriciti.com
> prider@tsktsk.com
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:27:41 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Brian Noggle <bnoggle@DRA.COM>
Subject:      Re: word rant

Let's hear about Latin abbreviations.

How about the improper use of i.e. and e.g.?

Id est, i.e., that is, is used to define.
Exempli grati, aka e.g., cites examples.

Or how about the poor souls who misspell etc. as ect.

We never had that problem when it was &c.

Brian J. Noggle

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barbara Stroup [SMTP:indexa2z@THE-SPA.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 11:20 AM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      word rant
>
> Well, I'm joining in here to share a grammarian pet peeve or two and whine
> a bit
>  because I'm missing the conference....
> When did "celebrity" become something someone possesses instead of just
> being a
>  noun or an adjective? Am I making myself clear here?
>         i.e. She was uncomfortable with her new celebrity.
>                 instead of
>                 She was uncomfortable being a celebrity.
>                 or
>                 She was uncomfortable with her new celebrity status.
>
> AND
>
>         Why say "go ahead and turn the dial" instead of "turn the dial
> now." It
>  seems the first I heard this usage was back in the days of my first
> computer
>  and its glitches; tech helpers (available free, by phone, in those dark
> ages)
>  would say "Go ahead of click on the etc." Now I hear "go ahead and"
> everywhere
>  !!!
>
> end of rant and whine.
> Barbara**********************
> Barbara Stroup, Indexer
> 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108
> 413 785-1835     e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com
>
> ****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:44:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Carol Kennedy <colfaxgp@MINN.NET>
Subject:      Re: word rant

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Stroup <indexa2z@THE-SPA.COM>

>When did "celebrity" become something someone possesses instead of just
being a
> noun or an adjective? Am I making myself clear here?
>        i.e. She was uncomfortable with her new celebrity.
>                instead of
>                She was uncomfortable being a celebrity.


"Celebrity" has meant "fame" for longer than it has meant "a famous person."
Only in the mid-1800s did it start to mean the latter; the usage you object
to is a couple of hundred years older.

Can you find me a single current dictionary that does NOT give "fame" or a
similar term as a meaning for "celebrity"?

Carol Kennedy
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:06:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         janetshay <djshay@PRTCNET.COM>
Subject:      compliment

--=====================_1886145==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Dear Indexers,

I received a message from a member of the list who took my comments to the
list
yesterday in a negative way. I hope none of the rest of you did.  I admire you
folks for the job you do!  Just as some people cannot imagine spending all day
every day in a room with 25 10-year-olds as I do, I cannot imagine doing what
you do.  I think you all must be incredibly intelligent and
self-disciplined to
do the job you do!  Have a great day.

Janet Shay
djshay@prtcnet.com
--=====================_1886145==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html><div>Dear Indexers,</div>
<br>
<div>I received a message from a member of the list who took my comments
to the list yesterday in a negative way. I hope none of the rest of you
did.&nbsp; I admire you folks for the job you do!&nbsp; Just as some
people cannot imagine spending all day every day in a room with 25
10-year-olds as I do, I cannot imagine doing what you do.&nbsp; I think
you all must be incredibly intelligent and self-disciplined to do the job
you do!&nbsp; Have a great day.</div>

<br>

<font face="Lucida Calligraphy" color="#FF00FF">Janet Shay<br>
djshay@prtcnet.com</font></html>

--=====================_1886145==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:45:14 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Elaine R. Firestone" <elaine@CALVAL.GSFC.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage

As a scientific technical editor, this subject is near and dear to my
heart.  To the person who said he'd been teaching "business writing for 15
years, and I can tell you that it is futile to fight against the use of
"it's" when "its" is called," I say PHOOEY!  If teachers doesn't teach
proper usage how are the students going to learn the difference?  It is
*not* futile! Keep fighting the good fight.  Those who want to learn, will;
those who don't want to learn, take points off their grade until they do.

To Bob's rant on usage problems, for the most part I say great, correct,
bravo!  There does need some clarification, however, with some of what he
said.

>1)    "Further" vs. "Farther".     "Fur" is what little animals have.  "Far"
>is a distance.  "Further" isn't a kinder, gentler, version of "Farther".  The
>opposite of "near" is not "fur".  If you are in NYC and speak of  "a fur
>piece" you might mean a mink stole.  If you are in the hills of West
>Virginia, "a fur piece" means "on the other side of the mountain".  Storms
>don't move "further out to sea".  I mean, like, really, its actually
>basically "FARther"!!   Need I go further?

What Bob is trying to say in the above is that "farther" is used with
distance, and "further" is used in the abstract. You travel "farther" down
the road, but you "further" the aims of science.

>2)    "Despite" vs. "In Spite Of".   Don't know why the awkward and ugly "in
>spite of" is used instead of the neat and clean "despite".

"In spite of" being ugly is in the eyes of the beholder.  There are slight
variations in meaning between the two constructs.  You would never say, for
example, in the expression "despite the fact, not because of..." you would
say "In spite of and not because of..." for the parallelism.  Each has its
own niche in English and one shouldn't be used to the exclusion of the
other.

Regarding the suppression of "Weatherspeak", being married to meteorologist
(by education) for the past 16+ years, I've learned an awful lot about the
weather.

>Normal English:   "We expect rain tonight."
>Weatherspeak:    "We believe that there is 70 percent possibility of
>rainshower activity during the overnight hours."

To a certain degree, the above is true, *but* a 70% chance of showers
doesn't mean there's a 30% chance it'll be clear.  A 70% chance of showers
means that it is likely to rain in 70% of the area for which the forecast
is made. "We expect rain tonight" means there's a darn good chance it will
rain.  Not the same thing at all.

>Normal English:    "Tornado"
>Weatherspeak:     "Tornadic activity"

This is totally wrong. "Tornadic activity" does NOT mean an actual tornado.
It means that there is activity in the atmosphere that can *produce* a
tornado, so be aware of it and be prepared, not that you're going to get
one.

I vividly remember a technical communication class I attended at MIT a few
years ago.  One of the workshops was on simplifying English in technical
documentation (engineering in this case). The example to try to simplify
was "because of the underwater activity, the bridge was destabilized."
When the professor asked if anyone could simplify it, one of other
participants said "Yes, you could say 'because of the underwater activity,
the bridge was not stable."  I immediately raised my hand and said, "No,
you can't say that! In technical writing, 'not stable' means just that...
it is not stable; however 'destabilized' means that it is *less* stable
than before, not that its not stable at all." The professor smiled at me
and said "Thank you, Elaine."

The object of the above, is to be careful! What *you* declare as wordy and
possibly more complicated than needs be, and therefore needs to be changed,
is actually trying to get across a different idea.  The wording might be
trying to convey a shade a meaning you aren't aware of. If you aren't a
expert in the subject matter, don't change anything!

HTH.

Elaine



Elaine R. Firestone, ELS
elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov
elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:28:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tokyo Rose By Any Other Name...
In-Reply-To:  <199906092239.PAA03661@decibel.electriciti.com>

Thanks, Bob Rich, for some of the best satire since "A Modest Proposal."

Is alphabet soup dangerous to human life?
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:56:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: compliment
In-Reply-To:  <199906101420.HAA22019@decibel.electriciti.com>

Janet Shay's comments were witty, accurate, and honest.

I sometimes say it took someone else (publisher CEO) to accuse me of being
an indexer and, while otherwise normal, I find the label fits.

I'm forced into the self-discipline stuff--always on a deadline.
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:36:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Mary Ann Meyers <ljmmam@XPLORENET.COM>
Subject:      There's reasons to rant, isn't there?

My favorite:
        There's things I want to talk about...there's places I want to go. . =
.there's people I want to see, etc.

        For Mark--"And a bunch of indexers attacking the matter will not make =
one iota of difference."--

        I are glad to have this opportunity to voice my angst.  My television =
set refuses to respond to my groans of agony over grammatical usage.  =
There's indexers listening out there in the ether--how comforting!  I =
are hopeful that Index-L continues to be educational and entertaining.

Mary Ann Meyers=20
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:46:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject:      Titles of works -- Need advice fast!

I am working on (about to send off) an index which contains a number of
titles of works, many of which begin with an article.  I'm aware that
initial articles in book titles are ignored when alphabetizing.  Initial
articles in hymn titles, OTOH, often aren't ignored (A Mighty Fortress Is
Our God can be alphabetized under A.)

My question is, which rule applies to titles of  a) films and b) visual art
such as paintings, etc.?  I've followed the "ignore the article" rule for
both of these, but I've never had to alphabetize visual arts before, and I
want to make sure I'm correct!

Question two: Many of these works have *very* long titles (After graduating
return to the countryside to carry out the revolution, vow to become a
generation of new peasants.)  This gets extremely cumbersome when I have to
cross-reference to two or three titles in a row.  According to Chicago, the
cross-referenced heading should "be cited in full, with capitalization,
inversion, and punctuation exactly as given in the entry referred to.
Exceptions are sometimes made for very long headings."  What do you think
would be the best way to accomplish this -- with ellipses (See also After
graduating return to the countryside...)?

And yet another question:  Chicago indicates that it is permissible to set
"see" and "see also" in roman type if the term that follows is in italic
type.  I'm curious as to how other indexers feel about this.

TIA,

Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:07:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Nancy A. Guenther" <nanguent@CHESCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Titles of works -- Need advice fast!
In-Reply-To:  <199906101552.LAA17255@carriage.chesco.com>

At 11:46 AM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I am working on (about to send off) an index which contains a number of
>titles of works, many of which begin with an article.  I'm aware that
>initial articles in book titles are ignored when alphabetizing.  Initial
>articles in hymn titles, OTOH, often aren't ignored (A Mighty Fortress Is
>Our God can be alphabetized under A.)
>
>My question is, which rule applies to titles of  a) films and b) visual art
>such as paintings, etc.?  I've followed the "ignore the article" rule for
>both of these, but I've never had to alphabetize visual arts before, and I
>want to make sure I'm correct!

I always work on the principle of ignoring the preposition. When I see an
index sorted using the preposition, I tend to assume that it was a
computer-generated sort. I've never had an editor ask that initial articles
be part of the sort.

In terms of your see references, how much space do you save by using the
reference instead of double posting.  I lean toward removing the see
reference & double-posting the information when the see reference gets so
long that it can confuse the reader.

In terms of the italics of "see"  I seen variety in publishers'
requirements and just ask the editor if there is a question.


Nancy Guenther
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:49:13 +0100
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Leonard Will <L.Will@WILLPOWER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Hopefully and Basically
In-Reply-To:  <929019765.1018464.0@listserv.cuny.edu>

In article <929019765.1018464.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, on Thu, 10 Jun 1999
at 08:56:35, Cynthia Bertelsen <URL: mailto:cbertel@USIT.NET> writes
>Would a statement
>like "I basically can't stand to eat liver in any shape or form." be
>considered incorrect? Please tell me!

I've resisted in joining in this interesting discussion so far, but as
this is phrased as a question I have an excuse to reply.

I don't think that the use of "basically" here is grammatically wrong,
but I think it would be better style to say "Basically, I can't
stand...". It depends on what has gone before in the conversation
whether the word "basically" adds anything to the meaning of the
sentence. If not, it would be better omitted.

What jarred with me in this sentence, though, is the use of the
infinitive "to eat". This implies that "I can't stand to eat liver, I
have to sit down". The intended sentence would be more idiomatically
expressed as "I can't stand eating liver".

In article <929016455.1112219.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, on Thu, 10 Jun 1999
at 12:43:01, Mark Miller <URL: mailto:mark@MARKMILLER.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
writes
>I saw Bro's (as in Moss Bros.) the other day, sign-written on the
>side of a van.

This may be quite correct, as a contraction, with the apostrophe marking
the elision of the letters "ther"; it could be argued that the sign-
writer is correct and that Moss Bros. have it wrong, if that is the form
they use. It's already been said that apostrophes are complicated.

Finally, I must raise my own pet peeve, which is "leverage" used as a
verb, in areas such as business and finance. As a physicist (a long time
ago) I am happy with "lever" as a noun or a verb, but "to leverage"
seems to be a pretentious misuse of an abstract noun by people who think
that a long word must sound better than a short one.

Leonard Will
--
Willpower Information        (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will)
Information Management Consultants               Tel: +44 (0)20 8372 0092
27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex EN2 7BQ, UK.  Fax: +44 (0)20 8372 0094
L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk            Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk
---------------- <URL:http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk/> ----------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:11:25 -0700
Reply-To:     nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Smoke Signals

The Safire one is a real gem, Punster Supremo, especially  since smoke may
be regarded as but a visible form of hot air.  Sadly, he is not the only
ravin'
maven in the world of discourse.
>
>Although William S. has been accused of blowing smoke (e.g., the expression
>"Where there's smoke there's Safire"), in this case he is innocent.  The
>"Abraham Lincoln Brigade Against Rampant Acronyms" derives its name from
>Abraham L., not form the Spanish Civil War (which was notably uncivil).  As
>you know, A.L. said: "You can abbreviate all of the agencies some of the
>time, and some of the agencies all of the time, but it's as confusing as
hell
>to abbreviate all of the agencies all of the time."  And he was a
Republican!

Yes, but he was a Free Soiler before that, not to mention a Whig.  I won't
touch either one of those.

<snip>
>
>BTW, the objection of some critics to Guernica was not that it was urban
>renewal, but that it was bad art...
>
A bomb, eh?
>
>Now, I thought that "oneupspersonship" referred to a UPS truck with only
one
>driver.
>

Come on now.  When did you last see a UPS truck with two drivers?


Speaking of stables, someone recently referred to an editor's stable of
indexers.  How would you like to clean that up?

This is too much fun.  I must not be working.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:19:31 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "John R. Sullivan" <John_Sullivan@STRATUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage

Elaine wrote:

        To the person who said he'd been teaching "business writing for 15
        years, and I can tell you that it is futile to fight against the use
of
        "it's" when "its" is called," I say PHOOEY!  If teachers doesn't
teach
proper usage how are the students going to learn the difference?

I'm the one who said he'd been teaching business writing for 15 years. Well,
PHOOEY to you too, Elaine! Let's start throwing things at each other, shall
we? Or perhaps we can do what Pam Rider did and send personal email calling
each other ignorant! I guess if those darn teachers don't teach "proper
usage," we might end up with people saying "if teachers doesn't teach proper
usage" in their email!

As is often the case on this list, I regret that I ever even got involved in
the discussion.


Might be a good idea to end this thread. I know that from now on I'm going
to delete anything with "usage" or "grammar" in the subject line.

John Sullivan
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:12:34 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Cynthia Landeen <busterlandeen@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      more rantings on grammar

-----Original Message-----
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
To: Recipients of INDEX-L digests <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 9:06 PM
Subject: INDEX-L Digest - 8 Jun 1999 to 9 Jun 1999



>Date:    Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:10:55 EDT
>From:    ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
>Subject: Medium-Short Rant re Usage
>
>Hi -
>
>Don Rossi wrote:
>
>>I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
>>tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its."
>
And I was going to go on about my pet peeve of people using the word acronym
when they should be using initialism, but someone has already used
initialism correctly.  darn!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:28:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Chris & Tracy McLaughlin <risorius@icom.ca>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Chris & Tracy McLaughlin <risorius@ICOM.CA>
Subject:      Re: stupid question #1

Thanks to Karen for speaking up.

I've had this problem (rudeness) on other mailing lists. Not everyone is old
hat when it comes to netiquette... all "stupid question #1" required was a
polite suggestion that Laura try everything she can think of (e.g., reading
the manual) before she posts to the list. Chances are good that she wouldn't
make the same mistake again... hopefully she's still subscribing after
receiving M. Jessie Barczak's response.

A tip: when asking for assistance on what is, admittedly, a stupid question,
it helps to _briefly_ describe what you have done to answer it on your own
(e.g., "the manual says this, but I can't get that to work... I thought it
might be something else, but still nothing... has anyone else had this
problem?").

It's nice to see that most people were helpful.
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Field <KarenF@TRITECH.COM>
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: stupid question #1

>Does this mean what I think it means? If so, I was just wondering if a
>response like this to a newbie is the image Index-l really wants to have.
If
>you have nothing constructive to add, why not just stay silent on an issue?
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: M. Jessie Barczak [SMTP:jbarczak@CQ.COM]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 11:10
>> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
>> Subject:      Re: stupid question #1
>>
>> RTFM
>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:28:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Chris & Tracy McLaughlin <risorius@icom.ca>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Chris & Tracy McLaughlin <risorius@ICOM.CA>
Subject:      indexes are written

-----Original Message-----
From: janetshay <djshay@PRTCNET.COM>
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: More ranting on grammar

>I guess I had always just thought the publisher or even the author compiled
>the index

Just to clarify an imporant point (important for indexers, at least, if not
for anyone else): good indexes aren't compiled, they're written.  :-)

Ciao, Chris
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:29:49 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: FW: Medium-Short Rant re Usage
In-Reply-To:  <5B88C8AB08B5D0118349400011060062060081D1@CORMAILS4>

At 12:10 PM 6/10/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I heard it slightly differently--it was a retort to a woman, and
>(supposedly) it goes: "That is the sort of errant nonsense up with which I
>will not put.

I must say that the above version certainly has more of a Churchillian ring
to it. Prime ministers often have male secretaries.
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:18:14 -0300
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Noeline Bridge <nbridge@NB.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      What Churchill said

According to Sir Ernest Gowers's "The Complete Plain Words," "it is said
that Sir Winston Churchill once made this marginal comment against a
sentence that clumsily avoided a prepositional ending: 'This is the sort of
English up with which I will not put.' "

Noeline Bridge
BRIDGEWORK
nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca
295 Highfield Street
Moncton, NB E1C 5R4
Canada
phone 506-870-1113
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:02:16 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject:      Mea Culpa!, Janet

All -

Janet  Shay wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Indexers,

I received a message from a member of the list who took my comments to the
list
yesterday in a negative way. I hope none of the rest of you did.  I admire
you folks for the job you do!  Just as some people cannot imagine spending
all day every day in a room with 25 10-year-olds as I do, I cannot imagine
doing what you do.  I think you all must be incredibly intelligent and
self-disciplined to do the job you do!

 Have a great day.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Janet -

I believe that you might be referring to my post: "Re: Astonishment At
Discovering Indexing".  If so, I am that "member of the list".    I am so
sorry!    I appreciate your concern, and my public posting was meant only as
satire... not as a personal criticism.  As I said, I loved your sense of
humor.

As you might have surmised, many of us (Nick Koenig, for example) delight in
playing with words.  I suppose that occasionally I am seduced by a felicitous
phrase, and this syntactical delight might compromise my judgment. If that
happened in my posting, I am sorry and I apologize.

As an aside to those on Index-L who depart in a huff (a "huff" is a small,
blue, two-cylinder English car) when a flame or two appears on our tranquil
(!) landscape:   Sometimes good people just make reflexive shoot-from-the-hip
comments that are not carefully thought-out, and not really intended as a
personal attack, but that skewer an innocent bystander (e.g., the recent RTFM
comment).

Words can be a joy and a source of strength and wisdom.  They also can be a
weapon and a source of great pain and damage.  I believe that many more
people have died over ideas and words than ever were killed in conflicts over
land or cattle.  If you doubt the power of words, consider the ongoing
concern over "politically correct" usage or, more simply, how hurt we have
been as children when a parent or peer spoke harshly to us or jeered at us in
the schoolyard....  And how long we have remembered this hurt.  But this,
too, is part of life.  Over the years we collect a lot of dents in our
emotional fenders.  Perhaps one of the hallmarks of being adult is the
ability to place this sort of thing in some workable perspective, and then go
on.  But it does exact a price...

The recent thread on usage is a perfect example of harmless venting.  Look at
how much heat (and some light) has bubbled to the surface from our magma
chambers of discontent!  This kind of diffuse venting really is fine - - it
only becomes dangerous, in my view, when someone becomes angry and focusses
hurtful riposte's at another respondent.

Mark Miller commented quite nicely (from the UK) about how complex and
dynamic language is.  He said:  "... but I've given up worrying about it. If
I'm editing or proofreading I correct them; in an index I get them right.
Otherwise, life is too short; there are far more important things to be busy
or relaxed with. And a bunch of indexers attacking the matter will not make
one iota of difference."

He's right, of course, but for some of us, concern (ranting) about usage IS
part of what life, short or long, is about.  Without folks who rant about
words and usage there  would be no lexicographers, no writers of exquisite
skill, no grammarians (that might not be so bad!), and we all would be
scrabbling about looking for dictionaries so that we could continue this
thread!

Janet, your concern is quite reasonable and understandable.  Fun is fun only
if nobody gets hurt.  Humor at another's expense is a cheap shot.  If some of
my words were hurtful, I do apologize.  Please recall, though, that there
also were two private communications, both of which were entirely supportive.

And yes - I can''t imagine awakening each morning and thinking "Oh, Good!
I'm on my way to spend the day in a class of twenty-five 10-year-olds!"

BTW, I do agree that indexers are intelligent, although the adjective
"incredibly" might apply more to their self-discipline...

Again, sorry for any unintended hurt.

Best wishes,

Bob Richardson
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:16:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Julie Sherman Grayson <juliesg@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mea Culpa!, Janet

Dear All,
All right, all right ... here it comes ... since no one else is
shameless enough to ask ... or maybe I REALLY AM the only na=EFve person
on this list ... will someone PLEASE tell me what "RTFM" means? I've
been pondering this for TWO days and am forced to ask because my
disciplined work schedule is suffering. (And please, let's not digress
into a discussion of my appropriate/inappropriate use of the ellipses
(profuse thanks). Obviously, only off-list replies are appropriate in
this instance.

Julie Sherman Grayson
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:32:06 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Karen Field <KarenF@TRITECH.COM>
Subject:      Moving beyond yesterday's acronym

Hi, all.

After my post yesterday, I received several queries asking, "What does that
term mean?" If you don't know but do care, email me privately and I'll tell
you. Then let's move on. I'm a little embarrassed that I spotted the vulgar
term so quickly...Oh, well. I guess working in the technical documentation
field has made me a little streetwise in netiquette...

Karen
karenf@tritech.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:33:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Roger Wong <rwong@METROWERKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mea Culpa!, Janet
In-Reply-To:  <199906102019.PAA16343@Metrowerks.com>

>tell me what "RTFM" means

Hi Julie,
It means, "please read the manual."

-Roger
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:34:25 -0700
Reply-To:     Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Noggle <bnoggle@DRA.COM>
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: More ranting on grammar


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Karen Field [SMTP:KarenF@TRITECH.COM]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 5:44 PM
>> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
>> Subject:      More ranting on grammar
>>
>> Finally, here's one of my favorites, which I see frequently in the
>> software
>> documentation world: "The XYZ dialog box displays." Arrrggghhh.
>>
>Tech Writer in self defense here:
>
>According to the American Heritage Dictionary, displays is now an
>intransitive verb in the computer world.  I think that someone thought
>"appears" was too magical, and in the world where responsibility is rarely
>assigned, "the software/computer/terminal displays" would be too
>anthropomorphic.
>
>Brian J. Noggle

It looks to me as if there is no universal agreement in its use as a
transitive versus intransitive verb.  According to Merriam Webster's
Collegiate Dictionary, "display" is a transitive verb unless used to mean
the following:
(1)  To show off
(2)  To make a breeding display (as does a penguin)

If I were to guess, I would say that even in these examples there is an
implied direct object, in that the action is reflexive (i.e., to display
oneself).  If this is the case, then it would still be acceptable to use it
in the context of computers.

Cheers
Homer
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:18:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert A. Saigh <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: More ranting on grammar


>    Second, some of the rules you mentioned, e.g., sentences cannot end
>with a preposition, are arbitrary and were created by grammarians with
>way too much time on their hands around the turn of the century.  They
>have no basis in fact.


The rule that a sentence may not end with a preposition has been established
as standard English and is included in all grammar textbooks.  To resist it
is simply to insist on speaking poor English.

>    Third, and finally, you cannot stop the hands of time.  No committee
>on English exists in the U.S.I. (United States of Illiterates) as does
>in France.  And, until you form a national organization to rein in the
>madness, standardize the teaching of children, make sure all teachers
>are qualified, and stop Madison Avenue from creatively twisting our
>words, you are merely chasing your tail.  And THAT is a tale to be told.
>
>    Rob


By this argument, there can be no rules of grammar, and therefore there is
no standardly accepted way of speaking English -- everyone can make up their
own rules and speak their own "English."  Since there is no established
committee to rule on proper usage, we must therefore base our judgments on
what has been standardly accepted.  One's usage must be measured against
that.  The alternative is linguistic anarchy.

Cheers,
Homer
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:58:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Carol Kennedy <colfaxgp@MINN.NET>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar

-----Original Message-----
From: Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>

>The rule that a sentence may not end with a preposition has been
established
>as standard English and is included in all grammar textbooks.  To resist it
>is simply to insist on speaking poor English.


Which "grammar textbooks" are you referring to?

In _A Dictionary of Modern English Usage_ (1926), H.W. Fowler says, "It is a
cherished superstition that prepositions must...be...placed before the word
they govern....The fact is that the remarkable freedom enjoyed by English in
putting its prepositions late...is an important element in the flexibility
of the language" (and a great deal more in defense of the preposition at the
end of a sentence).

In _Usage and Abusage_ (1947), Eric Partridge quotes Fowler with approval.

In _The Careful Writer_ (1973), Theodore M. Bernstein says, "For years and
years Miss Thistlebottom has been teaching her bright-eyed brats that no
writer would end a sentence with a preposition if he knew what he was about.
The truth is that no good writer would follow Miss Thistlebottom's
rule....In most sentences ending with prepositions,...the sentences are
still good. Why? Because they are idiomatic and have been constructed that
way from Shakespeare's 'We are such stuff as dreams are made on' to today's
'Music to read by.'"

In _Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage_ (1975), the panel says,
"Despite the fact that authorities as disparate as H. W. Fowler, Winston
Churchill, and Morris Bishop have been making a mockery of this rule for
more than half a century, there are still many millions of
believers....Every time we try to dispose of the foolish superstition, we
receive a barrage of letters."

In _The Oxford Companion to the English Language_ (1992), the contributors
say, "...although English prepositions often do precede their complement,
there are structures in which this is impossible....[Putting the preposition
other than at the end] sometimes produces stilted inversions."

I can quote from quite a few more authorities if you want, but I suggest
that first you find five, of equal reputation to the ones I've cited, that
support your position.

Carol Kennedy
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:00:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      ok, this calls for a silly contest ...

Compose the shortest paragraph that correctly uses all
meanings of "affect" and "effect". Bonus round:
Include variations such as "affected" and "effective".
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:59:31 -0700
Reply-To:     Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: more rantings on grammar

-----Original Message-----
From: Cynthia Landeen <busterlandeen@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 11:22 AM
Subject: more rantings on grammar


 >And I was going to go on about my pet peeve of people using the word
acronym
>when they should be using initialism, but someone has already used
>initialism correctly.  darn!

An initialism is a type of acronym.

Regards,
Homer
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:24:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Carol Kennedy <colfaxgp@MINN.NET>
Subject:      Re: more rantings on grammar

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cynthia Landeen <busterlandeen@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> >And I was going to go on about my pet peeve of people using the word
>acronym
>>when they should be using initialism,

-----Original Message-----
From: Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>
>An initialism is a type of acronym.


The meanings seem to vary in current dictionaries. Just as an example, MW10
says that an initialism is an acronym, but American Heritage doesn't even
contain the word "initialism."

I think that the most helpful distinction is to use "acronym" if it is
usually pronounced as a word ("NATO") and "initialism" if it isn't ("USA").

Carol Kennedy
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:31:27 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: acronyms/initialisms
In-Reply-To:  <199906102211.PAA05542@decibel.electriciti.com>

The AMA style manual has an acronym defined as pronounced as a word (DHHS
is *not* an acronym). An initialism can be pronounced as a word or with
each letter pronounced separately (NATO and DHHS are both initialisms, with
NATO also an acronym).

Another of my peeves is capping the expanded forms. The expanded forms of
abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms are in lowercase letters, unless
the expansion includes a proper noun (or nouns), is a formal name, or
begins a sentence (caping only the first word).
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:50:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         janetshay <djshay@PRTCNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mea Culpa!, Janet
In-Reply-To:  <01JC8OTH1E0K8WZ2BK@SMTP00.InfoAve.Net>

--=====================_1376020==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Bob,

You were not the member of the list who seemed to take offense to my
comments.
I appreciate the messages you and others have sent to me! :)


At 04:02 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>All -
>
>Janet  Shay wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Dear Indexers,
>
>I received a message from a member of the list who took my comments to the
>list
>yesterday in a negative way. I hope none of the rest of you did.  I admire
>you folks for the job you do!  Just as some people cannot imagine spending
>all day every day in a room with 25 10-year-olds as I do, I cannot imagine
>doing what you do.  I think you all must be incredibly intelligent and
>self-disciplined to do the job you do!
>
> Have a great day.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Janet -
>
>I believe that you might be referring to my post: "Re: Astonishment At
>Discovering Indexing".  If so, I am that "member of the list".    I am so
>sorry!    I appreciate your concern, and my public posting was meant only as
>satire... not as a personal criticism.  As I said, I loved your sense of
>humor.
>
>As you might have surmised, many of us (Nick Koenig, for example) delight in
>playing with words.  I suppose that occasionally I am seduced by a felicitous
>phrase, and this syntactical delight might compromise my judgment. If that
>happened in my posting, I am sorry and I apologize.
>
>As an aside to those on Index-L who depart in a huff (a "huff" is a small,
>blue, two-cylinder English car) when a flame or two appears on our tranquil
>(!) landscape:   Sometimes good people just make reflexive shoot-from-the-hip
>comments that are not carefully thought-out, and not really intended as a
>personal attack, but that skewer an innocent bystander (e.g., the recent RTFM
>comment).
>
>Words can be a joy and a source of strength and wisdom.  They also can be a
>weapon and a source of great pain and damage.  I believe that many more
>people have died over ideas and words than ever were killed in conflicts over
>land or cattle.  If you doubt the power of words, consider the ongoing
>concern over "politically correct" usage or, more simply, how hurt we have
>been as children when a parent or peer spoke harshly to us or jeered at us in
>the schoolyard....  And how long we have remembered this hurt.  But this,
>too, is part of life.  Over the years we collect a lot of dents in our
>emotional fenders.  Perhaps one of the hallmarks of being adult is the
>ability to place this sort of thing in some workable perspective, and then go
>on.  But it does exact a price...
>
>The recent thread on usage is a perfect example of harmless venting.  Look at
>how much heat (and some light) has bubbled to the surface from our magma
>chambers of discontent!  This kind of diffuse venting really is fine - - it
>only becomes dangerous, in my view, when someone becomes angry and focusses
>hurtful riposte's at another respondent.
>
>Mark Miller commented quite nicely (from the UK) about how complex and
>dynamic language is.  He said:  "... but I've given up worrying about it. If
>I'm editing or proofreading I correct them; in an index I get them right.
>Otherwise, life is too short; there are far more important things to be busy
>or relaxed with. And a bunch of indexers attacking the matter will not make
>one iota of difference."
>
>He's right, of course, but for some of us, concern (ranting) about usage IS
>part of what life, short or long, is about.  Without folks who rant about
>words and usage there  would be no lexicographers, no writers of exquisite
>skill, no grammarians (that might not be so bad!), and we all would be
>scrabbling about looking for dictionaries so that we could continue this
>thread!
>
>Janet, your concern is quite reasonable and understandable.  Fun is fun only
>if nobody gets hurt.  Humor at another's expense is a cheap shot.  If some of
>my words were hurtful, I do apologize.  Please recall, though, that there
>also were two private communications, both of which were entirely supportive.
>
>And yes - I can''t imagine awakening each morning and thinking "Oh, Good!
>I'm on my way to spend the day in a class of twenty-five 10-year-olds!"
>
>BTW, I do agree that indexers are intelligent, although the adjective
>"incredibly" might apply more to their self-discipline...
>
>Again, sorry for any unintended hurt.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Bob Richardson
>
Janet Shay
djshay@prtcnet.com
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html><div>Bob,</div>
<br>
<div>You were not the member of the list who seemed to take offense to my
comments.&nbsp; I appreciate the messages you and others have sent to me!
:)</div>
<br>
<br>
<div>At 04:02 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:</div>
<div>&gt;All -</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Janet&nbsp; Shay wrote:</div>
<div>&gt;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</div>
<div>&gt;Dear Indexers,</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;I received a message from a member of the list who took my
comments to the</div>
<div>&gt;list</div>
<div>&gt;yesterday in a negative way. I hope none of the rest of you
did.&nbsp; I admire</div>
<div>&gt;you folks for the job you do!&nbsp; Just as some people cannot
imagine spending</div>
<div>&gt;all day every day in a room with 25 10-year-olds as I do, I
cannot imagine</div>
<div>&gt;doing what you do.&nbsp; I think you all must be incredibly
intelligent and</div>
<div>&gt;self-disciplined to do the job you do!</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt; Have a great day.</div>
<div>&gt;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</div>
<div>&gt;Janet -</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;I believe that you might be referring to my post: &quot;Re:
Astonishment At</div>
<div>&gt;Discovering Indexing&quot;.&nbsp; If so, I am that &quot;member
of the list&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am so</div>
<div>&gt;sorry!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I appreciate your concern, and my
public posting was meant only as</div>
<div>&gt;satire... not as a personal criticism.&nbsp; As I said, I loved
your sense of</div>
<div>&gt;humor.</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;As you might have surmised, many of us (Nick Koenig, for
example) delight in</div>
<div>&gt;playing with words.&nbsp; I suppose that occasionally I am
seduced by a felicitous</div>
<div>&gt;phrase, and this syntactical delight might compromise my
judgment. If that</div>
<div>&gt;happened in my posting, I am sorry and I apologize.</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;As an aside to those on Index-L who depart in a huff (a
&quot;huff&quot; is a small,</div>
<div>&gt;blue, two-cylinder English car) when a flame or two appears on
our tranquil</div>
<div>&gt;(!) landscape:&nbsp;&nbsp; Sometimes good people just make
reflexive shoot-from-the-hip</div>
<div>&gt;comments that are not carefully thought-out, and not really
intended as a</div>
<div>&gt;personal attack, but that skewer an innocent bystander (e.g.,
the recent RTFM</div>
<div>&gt;comment).</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Words can be a joy and a source of strength and wisdom.&nbsp;
They also can be a</div>
<div>&gt;weapon and a source of great pain and damage.&nbsp; I believe
that many more</div>
<div>&gt;people have died over ideas and words than ever were killed in
conflicts over</div>
<div>&gt;land or cattle.&nbsp; If you doubt the power of words, consider
the ongoing</div>
<div>&gt;concern over &quot;politically correct&quot; usage or, more
simply, how hurt we have</div>
<div>&gt;been as children when a parent or peer spoke harshly to us or
jeered at us in</div>
<div>&gt;the schoolyard....&nbsp; And how long we have remembered this
hurt.&nbsp; But this,</div>
<div>&gt;too, is part of life.&nbsp; Over the years we collect a lot of
dents in our</div>
<div>&gt;emotional fenders.&nbsp; Perhaps one of the hallmarks of being
adult is the</div>
<div>&gt;ability to place this sort of thing in some workable
perspective, and then go</div>
<div>&gt;on.&nbsp; But it does exact a price...</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;The recent thread on usage is a perfect example of harmless
venting.&nbsp; Look at</div>
<div>&gt;how much heat (and some light) has bubbled to the surface from
our magma</div>
<div>&gt;chambers of discontent!&nbsp; This kind of diffuse venting
really is fine - - it</div>
<div>&gt;only becomes dangerous, in my view, when someone becomes angry
and focusses</div>
<div>&gt;hurtful riposte's at another respondent.</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Mark Miller commented quite nicely (from the UK) about how
complex and</div>
<div>&gt;dynamic language is.&nbsp; He said:&nbsp; &quot;... but I've
given up worrying about it. If</div>
<div>&gt;I'm editing or proofreading I correct them; in an index I get
them right.</div>
<div>&gt;Otherwise, life is too short; there are far more important
things to be busy</div>
<div>&gt;or relaxed with. And a bunch of indexers attacking the matter
will not make</div>
<div>&gt;one iota of difference.&quot;</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;He's right, of course, but for some of us, concern (ranting)
about usage IS</div>
<div>&gt;part of what life, short or long, is about.&nbsp; Without folks
who rant about</div>
<div>&gt;words and usage there&nbsp; would be no lexicographers, no
writers of exquisite</div>
<div>&gt;skill, no grammarians (that might not be so bad!), and we all
would be</div>
<div>&gt;scrabbling about looking for dictionaries so that we could
continue this</div>
<div>&gt;thread!</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Janet, your concern is quite reasonable and
understandable.&nbsp; Fun is fun only</div>
<div>&gt;if nobody gets hurt.&nbsp; Humor at another's expense is a cheap
shot.&nbsp; If some of</div>
<div>&gt;my words were hurtful, I do apologize.&nbsp; Please recall,
though, that there</div>
<div>&gt;also were two private communications, both of which were
entirely supportive.</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;And yes - I can''t imagine awakening each morning and thinking
&quot;Oh, Good!</div>
<div>&gt;I'm on my way to spend the day in a class of twenty-five
10-year-olds!&quot;</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;BTW, I do agree that indexers are intelligent, although the
adjective</div>
<div>&gt;&quot;incredibly&quot; might apply more to their
self-discipline...</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Again, sorry for any unintended hurt.</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Best wishes,</div>
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;Bob Richardson</div>
&gt;
<br>

<font face="Lucida Calligraphy" color="#FF00FF">Janet Shay<br>
djshay@prtcnet.com</font></html>

--=====================_1376020==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:04:52 +0000
Reply-To:     connolly@neca.com
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM>
Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services
Subject:      Re: ok, this calls for a silly contest ...

Robin Hilp wrote:
>
> Compose the shortest paragraph that correctly uses all
> meanings of "affect" and "effect". Bonus round:
> Include variations such as "affected" and "effective".


The effect that your affectation produced on the affect of my affected patient
was such that he tried to effect a complete change of behavior. Your affecting
of that particular mannerism was, effectively, insulting to him, which had the
effect on my patient of causing him to affect indifference, which in effect,
he was unable to do. My patient has decided that he has had enough and, with
his personal effects, has moved to Botswana. His change of address will be
effective immediately, to the effect that you will be unable to effect an
effective resolution to his current lack of affection for you.

--
=============================
Daniel A. Connolly
mailto:connolly@neca.com
Word For Word Indexing Services
http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com
Woodstock, CT, USA
=============================
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:47:57 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Janet Russell <CorofinInd@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Titles of works -- Need advice fast!

Many hymn titles are the first line of the hymn, and articles must be
included because they are necessary for the meter.  Poetry indexes work the
same way.  But film titles or visual artwork aren't poetry, so the article
can be ignored.

Janet Russell

> I am working on (about to send off) an index which contains a number of
>  titles of works, many of which begin with an article.  I'm aware that
>  initial articles in book titles are ignored when alphabetizing.  Initial
>  articles in hymn titles, OTOH, often aren't ignored (A Mighty Fortress Is
>  Our God can be alphabetized under A.)
>
>  My question is, which rule applies to titles of  a) films and b) visual art
>  such as paintings, etc.?  I've followed the "ignore the article" rule for
>  both of these, but I've never had to alphabetize visual arts before, and I
>  want to make sure I'm correct!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:47:05 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Ann Truesdale <atruesdale@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage

Bob,

I love your "weather speak." If only it was limited to weathermen!

I vote for "site" vs. "sight" - as in a sign seen in my town a few years
ago - "Sight of the new ABC Church"
I had to drive by that every day on the way to work - going and coming.
Aaarrgh!

Also, several years ago the "looking to" syndrome cropped up here -
first heard on the radio, of course. Example: "He is looking to buy a
car." I have been told that this is not improper English, per se, but a
local usage. At any rate, I had never heard it before, and it made my
skin crawl. Now it seems to have become common usage here. I can hear
the phrase with only a tiny shiver, but I still hate it. Why not, "He
wants to buy a car" or, "He plans to buy a car" or, "He is shopping for
a car." What do ya'll think?

This reminds me of the reaction of a school friend, when she heard one
of the Georgia boys who said, in reference to an elevator button, "Mash
on it again." My friend said that in Maryland, where she was from, they
mashed potatoes.

Ann Truesdale
Charleston, SC

ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote:  <heavily snipped>
>
> Hi -
>
> Don Rossi wrote:
>
> >I'm thinking of starting a group of concerned indexers who would work
> >tirelessly to promote the difference between "it's" and "its." Maybe, after
> >that we could work to abolish the incorrect use of "hopefully" and
> >"basically." I know we have our work cut out for us. Any takers?   - Don<
>
> Yea, Don!!    I mean, like, its basically a great idea!  And hopefully please
> add:
>
> 1)    "Further" vs. "Farther"....
>
> 2)    "Despite" vs. "In Spite Of"....
>
> 3)    "Insure" vs. "Ensure"....
>
> 4)    And my very absolute hopefully basically to the max favorite:  "Which"
> vs. "That"....
>
> Normal English:   "We expect rain tonight."
> Weatherspeak:    "We believe that there is 70 percent possibility of
> rainshower activity during the overnight hours."....
>
> Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:36:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         janetshay <djshay@PRTCNET.COM>
Subject:      grammar

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HI!

Something that almost everyone says that seems improper to me and really makes
my skin crawl is this one:  "I could care less."  One should say, "I couldn't
care less."  If you could care less, that means that you do care to an
extent.
When people use the phrase, they are intending to imply that they don't care,
and that's not what their words mean.
Janet Shay
djshay@prtcnet.com
--=====================_11348900==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html><div>HI!</div>
<br>
Something that almost everyone says that seems improper to me and really
makes my skin crawl is this one:&nbsp; &quot;I could care
less.&quot;&nbsp; One should say, &quot;I couldn't care less.&quot;&nbsp;
If you could care less, that means that you do care to an extent.&nbsp;
When people use the phrase, they are intending to imply that they don't
care, and that's not what their words mean.&nbsp;
<br>

<font face="Lucida Calligraphy" color="#FF00FF">Janet Shay<br>
djshay@prtcnet.com</font></html>

--=====================_11348900==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:18:44 +1000
Reply-To:     diagonal@hermes.net.au
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne <diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU>
Subject:      more rantings on grammar

Compulsory reading for all prescriptivists should be Ludwig Wittgenstein's
comments on language and philosophy. Wittgenstein saw clearly that language
is a tool, not a system - it provides a means of getting things done. Like
other tools that have been developed over time, it's not finished or
complete, nor does it work equally well in all situations; what's more,
everyone's language tool is different. Wittgenstein believed - correctly, in
my opinion - that most of Western philosophy has been based on misguided
attempts to treat the language tool as if it provided anything more than a
rough pragmatic model of the world. It's as if someone was to criticise
hammer users because they weren't all using hammers of the same size and
shape.

If language doesn't do its job as well as it should then it's open to
criticism - but that usually involves a lot more analysis than just seizing
on the violations of 'rules' that were never more than conventions. If an
inarticulate scream gets someone out of the way of a falling girder, then
language has done its job.

PS. Coincidentally, while I was writing this Laurie Anderson's marvellous
song came on: Language is a Virus.

===================================
Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne
Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring
http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey
jonjermey@hermes.net.au
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:50:44 +0000
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Sue Lightfoot <slightfoot@MACACE.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: bring and take
In-Reply-To:  <199906100507.GAA22434@klingon.netkonect.co.uk>

From my experience this use of BRING is usual among the Irish, and in parts
(NE?) of England. Just one of the many dialect differences. It always used
to make me cringe too, but I'm learning to control the reflex. There is no
one correct form of the English language.

Sue Lightfoot



>Since Index-L seems to be bringing up pet peeves in usage, I must
>mention one of mine (although "which and that" and "less and fewer" are
>high on my list).  A fellow editor of mine would stop by my office and
>say, "I'm going to bring this document over to the program office now."
>I cringed and wanted to yell, "No, you are going to TAKE it to the
>program office, and then you will BRING it back."  I knew her for 15
>years and never had the nerve to tell her the difference, and she is
>still oblivious to the difference.



--------------------------
Sue Lightfoot - Indexer, Proofreader
Polperro, Cornwall, England
email: slightfoot@macace.co.uk
--------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:30:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" <dwindex@LOUISA.NET>
Subject:      unreadable diskette-help!

I was asked by a publisher to do a subject-only index. When I received the
page proofs, a diskette was included with the instructions "Please combine
the two indexes on this disk with the one you are making."  The disk is
unreadable by my computer.  The disk is labeled "MAC. Word 5.1."  I have a
PC with MS Word.  Any suggestions?

I really don't want to have to go out and buy computer software I normally
don't need for a surprise addition to a single project.

Paula Durbin-Westby
dwindex@louisa.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:12:22 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Kim Harris <KimIndex@AOL.COM>
Subject:      unreadable diskette-help!

Why don't you ask them to send you a disk that your computer can read? They
probably have the facilities and I can't see why they'd mind?

Kim
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:43:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Craig Brown <lastword@I1.NET>
Subject:      Re: unreadable diskette-help!

On 6/11/1999 6:30 AM Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote (in part):

>I really don't want to have to go out and buy computer software I normally
>don't need for a surprise addition to a single project.

Yes.  You'd not only have to buy software to allow you to read the Mac
disk, but also to translate from Mac Word to whatever.  Your best bet is
to find a willing Mac user, send them the files, specify the type of
files you want and let them translate it.  Most Macs are able to
translate files to most of the popular WP formats and save them on a DOS
format disk.  If the files aren't huge, you could send them as an e-mail
attachment.

hth,
Craig Brown

=====================================================
  The Last Word        lastword@i1.net
    Indexing           http://www.i1.net/~lastword
  (314)352-9094        fax: (314)481-9254
=====================================================
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:43:34 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Craig Brown <lastword@I1.NET>
Subject:      Re: grammar

On 6/10/1999 9:36 PM janetshay wrote (in part):

>Something that almost everyone says that seems improper to me and really
>makes
>my skin crawl is this one:  "I could care less."  One should say, "I couldn't
>care less."  If you could care less, that means that you do care to an
>extent.
>When people use the phrase, they are intending to imply that they don't care,
>and that's not what their words mean.

Janet, you're having a little fun with us, aren't you?  You use one idiom
(makes my skin crawl) to describe another (I could care less).  If that
weren't the case, you'd need to describe how your skin crawled (on tiny
hands and knees?) and where it crawled to.  Oops, the dreaded
preposition-ending sentence.

Thanks for an early-morning chuckle.

Craig Brown

=====================================================
  The Last Word        lastword@i1.net
    Indexing           http://www.i1.net/~lastword
  (314)352-9094        fax: (314)481-9254
=====================================================
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:21:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" <dwindex@LOUISA.NET>
Subject:      Re: grammar

On 6/10/1999 9:36 PM janetshay wrote (in part):

>Something that almost everyone says that seems improper to me and really
>makes
>my skin crawl is this one:  "I could care less."  One should say, "I
couldn't
>care less."  If you could care less, that means that you do care to an
>extent.
>When people use the phrase, they are intending to imply that they don't
care,
>and that's not what their words mean.

When I hear this phrase, I think, "If you could care less, then why don't
you?  You *could* care less, but you're just not willing to put in the
effort!"

Paula Durbin-Westby
dwindex@louisa.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 05:53:26 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Nancy Mulvany <nmulvany@BAYSIDE-INDEXING.COM>
Subject:      Query about Rapid Results College

I have been looking at the course material for The Rapid Results College
program in Indexing. Here are the particulars:

Rapid Results College
Tuition House
London, S.W. 19 4DS

Course No. 584a, b, c, d and No. T 584

All the material is copyright, however there is no date. It is the date that
I am curious about. My guess is that this material is from the 1970s.
Acknowledgment is made to SI for their assistance in the preparation of the
course. However, there is no author name associated with the material.

If anyone can shed some light on the approximate date and possibly the
author, I would appreciate it.

Many thanks,

-nancy

Nancy Mulvany
Bayside Indexing Service
Kensington, CA  94707-1401
(510) 524-4195
(510) 527-4681, fax
Email: nmulvany@bayside-indexing.com

Reference Books for Indexers =====> http://www.bayside-indexing.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:37:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Hannah Stephens <hastep@WNT.SAS.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar (beware, joke enclosed)

An NCSU student visiting the UNC campus stopped a UNC student to ask for
directions.

"Excuse me.  Could you tell me where the library's at?"

The UNC student replied, "At UNC we don't end a sentence with a
preposition."

"Okay,"  said the NCSU student, "Can you tell me where the library's at, g*
damnit?"


I've also heard this as a Texas Aggie joke.

Hannah Stephens



                -----Original Message-----
                From:   Carol Kennedy [mailto:colfaxgp@MINN.NET]
                Sent:   Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:58 PM
                To:     Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
                Subject:        Re: More ranting on grammar

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Homer Ellison <advms@mindspring.com>

                >The rule that a sentence may not end with a preposition has
been
                established
                >as standard English and is included in all grammar
textbooks.  To resist it
                >is simply to insist on speaking poor English.


                Which "grammar textbooks" are you referring to?

                In _A Dictionary of Modern English Usage_ (1926), H.W.
Fowler says, "It is a
                cherished superstition that prepositions must...be...placed
before the word
                they govern....The fact is that the remarkable freedom
enjoyed by English in
                putting its prepositions late...is an important element in
the flexibility
                of the language" (and a great deal more in defense of the
preposition at the
                end of a sentence).

                In _Usage and Abusage_ (1947), Eric Partridge quotes Fowler
with approval.

                In _The Careful Writer_ (1973), Theodore M. Bernstein says,
"For years and
                years Miss Thistlebottom has been teaching her bright-eyed
brats that no
                writer would end a sentence with a preposition if he knew
what he was about.
                The truth is that no good writer would follow Miss
Thistlebottom's
                rule....In most sentences ending with prepositions,...the
sentences are
                still good. Why? Because they are idiomatic and have been
constructed that
                way from Shakespeare's 'We are such stuff as dreams are made
on' to today's
                'Music to read by.'"

                In _Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage_ (1975), the
panel says,
                "Despite the fact that authorities as disparate as H. W.
Fowler, Winston
                Churchill, and Morris Bishop have been making a mockery of
this rule for
                more than half a century, there are still many millions of
                believers....Every time we try to dispose of the foolish
superstition, we
                receive a barrage of letters."

                In _The Oxford Companion to the English Language_ (1992),
the contributors
                say, "...although English prepositions often do precede
their complement,
                there are structures in which this is impossible....[Putting
the preposition
                other than at the end] sometimes produces stilted
inversions."

                I can quote from quite a few more authorities if you want,
but I suggest
                that first you find five, of equal reputation to the ones
I've cited, that
                support your position.

                Carol Kennedy
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:45:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Elaine R. Firestone" <elaine@CALVAL.GSFC.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage

Elaine wrote:

        To the person who said he'd been teaching "business writing for 15
        years, and I can tell you that it is futile to fight against the use
of
        "it's" when "its" is called," I say PHOOEY!  If teachers doesn't
teach
proper usage how are the students going to learn the difference?

To which John Sullivan replied:
________________

I'm the one who said he'd been teaching business writing for 15 years. Well,
PHOOEY to you too, Elaine! Let's start throwing things at each other, shall
we? Or perhaps we can do what Pam Rider did and send personal email calling
each other ignorant! I guess if those darn teachers don't teach "proper
usage," we might end up with people saying "if teachers doesn't teach proper
usage" in their email!
________________

Well John, again we have a someone on the list who took personal offense
where none was intended. (We seem to have a lot of that lately.) For that,
I'm sorry.  It wasn't meant as a personal attack on you, but on the
educational system in general. The "PHOOEY" was for the *idea* of "that it
is futile to fight against the use of 'it's' when 'its' is called," and not
phooey to you. As I said, I'm a scientific technical editor by profession,
and I see this incorrect construction darn near every time I edit a
manuscript.  It isn't primarily from ignorance, though ... it's from the
author's laziness of not re-reading what they wrote before handing it off,
or because the author didn't have time to re-read it (a *very* common
occurrence). Students, however, must be taught the difference and teachers
*at all levels* and *all subject matter* have to enforce the difference.
(Case in point, my son's math teacher took points off of the kids' grades
if they made spelling or grammatical errors in their projects. Bravo to
him!)  As I said before in my original post, "It is *not* futile! Keep
fighting the good fight.  Those who want to learn, will; those who don't
want to learn, take points off their grade until they do." As least they'll
be more aware of the difference and hopefully, learn from the experience.

But seriously folks, I haven't seen anyone list the related peeve of
"they're, there, and their". <VBG>

Anyway, again, I'm sorry for any offense taken by anyone on the list. It
wasn't meant that way.


Elaine


Elaine R. Firestone, ELS
elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov
elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 06:47:25 PDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         bret.wiebe@EXCITE.COM
Subject:      yet more grammar

Here4s my 2 cents:

Cent #1 - What really bugs me is when people confuse "there", "their", and
"they4re".

Cent #2 - I hope I won4t be drummed out of the indexing corps, but I
couldn4t define what a preposition is for a million bucks (although I no
doubt use them everyday and probably most commonly at the ends of sentences
:-)

Bret




_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:09:41 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Joel S. Berson" <J.Berson@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      What Roosevelt actually said

Re:

> >So Roosevelt was wrong when he coined that immortal but maddeningly
> incorrect
> >phrase:  "A day which will live in infamy..."
> >
> I am really shocked that  FDR could have made such an error.
> The animosity of Republicans was totally misdirected.  His
> domestic programs pale to insignificance in comparison to
> this blunder.   I wonder if the Japanese caught this?  Tokyo
> Rose surely sneared at FDR's bad grammar at some point.

What Roosevelt actually said was "A *date* ..."

Although Roosevelt (or his speechwriter) was careful to use the better
word here, and he is known for well-written and well-delivered speeches
(e.g., see below), he seems to have really used "which" (not the more
correct "that").  My source is "The History Place: Great Speeches" -
http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/fdr-infamy.htm, which will let you
listen to the speech itself.

Joel

From U.S. News OnLine -
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/970428/28fdr.htm:

A Roosevelt speech sounded spontaneous, straight from the heart,
effortless--effects that took much effort to achieve.  Some speeches
went through a dozen drafts, with speechwriters laboring at the big
table in the Cabinet Room until 3 a.m.  Roosevelt then revised
mercilessly--shortening sentences, substituting words with fewer
syllables, polishing similes--until his own muscular style emerged.
Sometimes, he wrote a speech entirely by himself.  He used a yellow
legal pad to draft his first inaugural address, which rang with one of
the most effective buck-up lines in history: "The only thing we have to
fear is fear itself."  He dictated to his secretary most of the Pearl
Harbor message he delivered to Congress.  He edited himself, changing "a
date which will live in world history" to "a date which will live in
infamy."
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:01:20 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar (beware, joke enclosed)
In-Reply-To:  <199906111347.GAA21253@decibel.electriciti.com>

Naturally, indexers would care very deeply about correct written
communication. Poorly written material could lead us astray. I observe that
folks here have very strong reading comprehensive skills and can usually
"work around" prose that confuse others. But, we *can* be caught by poor
writing.

Writing requires mutually understood rules. Spoken communication is
accompanied by inflection, tone, pacing--all sorts of cues. In face-to-face
spoken communication, there is also body language.

As writing can be more easily misunderstood, following common rules within
grammar helps assure that an intended meaning is communicated.

This, to me, is more than elitist rule making. It help folks, in general,
get along together better.

I firmly believe (and have seen) that the decline in grammar instruction in
schools has enlarged the class gap (at least in the USA). It reflects poor
social values to negatively judge someone because of poor grammar--but it
is very common. A secretary or an MBA who does not know the distinction
between its and it's will likely find it difficult to remain employed
beyond a basement level.

The traditional elites--the wealthy--are educated  in top-notch private
schools with strong grammar skills: (1) their good grammar is a code that
they belong in higher paying positions (2) this allow them to think they
deserve more privilege than those without their skills, which are really
very simple to learn. There's a reason why the elementary grades have been
traditionally named grammar school.

By saying grammar does not matter reinforces social unequal structures.
Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:06:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: More ranting on grammar (beware, joke enclosed)

To Everyone:

    Speaking of correct grammar, let's end this ranting.  Yes, it's hot
outside, we're all tired, business is slow, etc.  Whatever excuse you
want.  The key here is help each other and not to slice each other into
unrecognizable pieces.

    One suggestion: Please check your own e-mail before sending it out.
If we are truly "in the know" when it comes to grammar, then the proof
should be in the pudding, as the expression goes.  (Goes where?  Don't
ask.)

    Take care and enjoy Indy.

        Rob

Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
P.O. Box 3529
Saint Louis, MO  63143-3529

314.726.0288
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:19:01 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: bring and take

Jean wrote:
>"I'm going to bring this document over to the
>program office now." [...] "No, you are going to TAKE

>it to the program office, and then you will BRING it
>back."

John R. Sullivan wrote:
>"bring," courtesy of AHD: "To take with oneself to
>a place"

IMHO this is a POV issue.

Jean, not at the program office, would say, "You will
take it to the program office [there] and bring it
back [here]."

The editor, or whoever is transporting the document,
would say "I will take it ..." when the only purpose
for going is to transport the document, or "I will
bring it ..." when the document is hitching a ride on
a trip that would happen anyway.

An alternative style, involving the local protocols of
courtesy rather than mere standards of grammar and
vocabulary, would be for the editor to adopt the POV
of his or her listener. He (or she) would say "I will
bring it ..." when speaking to someone at the
destination and "I will take it ..." when speaking to
someone at the origin. For example, "I will bring it
to you and take it back to him" and "I will take it to
him and bring it back to you."
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:23:19 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Hopefully and Basically

>Would a statement
>like "I basically can't stand to eat liver in any
shape or form." be
>considered incorrect?

It would for me :-9

-Robin, who just realized she hasn't had a good
braunschweiger sandwich in months.
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:19:29 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Sullivan, John" <John_Sullivan@STRATUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: bring and take

I honestly don't see any problem with using "bring" and "take"
interchangeably (at least in some contexts). The fact that the AHD
definition of "bring" begins with "to take" shows me that this is one
distinction over which no one should be losing any sleep.

And I said I was going to ignore the grammar /usage stuff from now on......

John Sullivan
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:48:43 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      apostrophe ess

Assuming the homework actually *is* done, would you
write "Chris' homework is done" or "Chris's homework
is done" -- and how would you pronounce it?
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:00:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Another Grammar Post

Elizabeth Bolton wrote:
>current fad of pronouncing the "T" in often.

How "current" do you mean? I recall hearing the "T in
often" from acquaintances in the UK and New England
back in 1970 or so. I think "ofTen" is a regional
variation, like "Long GIsland" ... pEEcan vs p'cAHn
... pah'n me vs pardon me ... Looziana vs
Lou-ee-zee-ana ... herb vs 'erb ...
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:00:31 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Toni Williams TPG/SG <towilliams@PROCYONGROUP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage

How about "fixin' to", as in "I'm fixin' to go to the store"? My husband's
parents are from Texas (no flames, please, I'm just stating a fact) and he
uses this expression all the time.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ann Truesdale [SMTP:atruesdale@EARTHLINK.NET]
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 6:47 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage
>
>
        <snip>

> Also, several years ago the "looking to" syndrome cropped up here -
> first heard on the radio, of course. Example: "He is looking to buy a
> car." I have been told that this is not improper English, per se, but a
> local usage. At any rate, I had never heard it before, and it made my
> skin crawl. Now it seems to have become common usage here. I can hear
> the phrase with only a tiny shiver, but I still hate it. Why not, "He
> wants to buy a car" or, "He plans to buy a car" or, "He is shopping for
> a car." What do ya'll think?
>
        <snip>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:59:52 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         janetshay <djshay@PRTCNET.COM>
Subject:      Fwd:

--=====================_8223156==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



>
> We have received information about another possible threat from an email
> attachment.  The virus was first detected June 6.  It acts like the
> HAPPY99.exe virus.
>
> If you receive an email with an attachment named "zipped_files.exe," do not
> open the attachment.  Close the email immediately, note who it is from, and
> delete the entire email.  Then delete it from your Deleted files box, also.
> Call the person from whom you received the email and let them know they are
> infected.  Also, let me know.
>
> Remember, you cannot infect your computer unless you open the attachment.
> You cannot be infected simply by opening the email to which it is attached.
>
> If you want more information, the following is from the Symantec web site
> (Symantic makes antivirus software):
>
> Worm.ExploreZip is a worm that contains a malicious payload. The worm
> utilizes MAPI commands and Microsoft Outlook on Windows systems to propagate
> itself. Worm.ExploreZip was first discovered in Israel and submitted to the
> Symantec AntiVirus Research Center on June 6, 1999.
>
> The worm e-mails itself out as an attachment with the filename
> "zipped_files.exe". The body of the e-mail message may appear to come from a
> known e-mail correspondent, and contains the following text:
>>
>> Hi Receipient Name!
>>
>> I received your email and I shall send you a reply ASAP.
>>
>> Till then, take a look at the attached zipped docs.
>>
>> bye
>
> The worm determines whom to mail this message to by going through your
> received messages in your Inbox.
>
> Once the attachment is executed, it may display the following window:
>
> The worm then proceeds to copy itself to the c:\windows\system directory
with
> the filename "Explore.exe", and then modifies the WIN.INI file so the
program
> is executed each time Windows is started. The worm then utilizes your e-mail
> client to harvest e-mail addresses in order to propagate itself. You may
> notice your e-mail client start when this occurs.
>
> Payload:
>
> In addition, when Worm.ExploreZip is executed, it searches drives C
through Z
> of your computer system and selects a series of files to destroy based on
> file extensions (including .h, .c, .cpp, .asm, .doc, .xls, .ppt) by making
> them 0 bytes long. This can result in non-recoverable data.
>
> Repair Notes:
>
> To remove this worm, you should perform the following steps:
>    * Remove the line run=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Explore.exe from the WIN.INI
file
>    * Delete the file "C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\EXPLORE.EXE". If the file is
currently
>    in use, you may need to reboot first.
>
> Gary
> Gary West
> Director of Computing Services
> Greenwood School District 50
> Voice:  864/941-5466
> Fax:  864/941-5431
> <mailto:westg@mail.gwd50.k12.sc.us>westg@mail.gwd50.k12.sc.us
> Website:  <http://www.gwd50.k12.sc.us>www.gwd50.k12.sc.us
>
>
>
> Janet Shay
> djshay@prtcnet.com
--=====================_8223156==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2><blockquote type=cite cite>We have received information
about another possible threat from an email attachment.&nbsp; The virus
was first detected June 6.&nbsp; It acts like the HAPPY99.exe
virus.&nbsp; <br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>If you receive an email with an attachment named
&quot;zipped_files.exe,&quot; do not open the attachment.&nbsp; Close the
email immediately, note who it is from, and delete the entire
email.&nbsp; Then delete it from your Deleted files box, also.&nbsp; Call
the person from whom you received the email and let them know they are
infected.&nbsp; Also, let me know.<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>Remember, you cannot infect your computer unless you open
the attachment.&nbsp; You cannot be infected simply by opening the email
to which it is attached.<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>If you want more information, the following is from the
Symantec web site (Symantic makes antivirus software):<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>Worm.ExploreZip is a worm that contains a malicious payload.
The worm utilizes MAPI commands and Microsoft Outlook on Windows systems
to propagate itself. Worm.ExploreZip was first discovered in Israel and
submitted to the Symantec AntiVirus Research Center on June 6, 1999.
<br>
</font><br>
<font size=2>The worm e-mails itself out as an attachment with the
filename &quot;zipped_files.exe&quot;. The body of the e-mail message may
appear to come from a known e-mail correspondent, and contains the
following text: </font><blockquote><font size=2>
<dl>
<dd>Hi </font><font size=2 color="#FF0000">Receipient
Name</font><font size=2 color="#0000FF">!<br>
<br>

<dd>I received your email and I shall send you a reply ASAP.<br>
<br>

<dd>Till then, take a look at the attached zipped docs.<br>
<br>

<dd>bye</font><font size=2> </blockquote><font size=2>
<dd>The worm determines whom to mail this message to by going through
your received messages in your Inbox. <br>
<br>

<dd>Once the attachment is executed, it may display the following
window:<br>
<br>

<dd>The worm then proceeds to copy itself to the c:\windows\system
directory with the filename &quot;Explore.exe&quot;, and then modifies
the WIN.INI file so the program is executed each time Windows is started.
The worm then utilizes your e-mail client to harvest e-mail addresses in
order to propagate itself. You may notice your e-mail client start when
this occurs. <br>
<br>
<font size=2>
<dd>Payload:</b><font size=2> <br>
<br>

<dd>In addition, when Worm.ExploreZip is executed, it searches drives C
through Z of your computer system and selects a series of files to
destroy based on file extensions (including .h, .c, .cpp, .asm, .doc,
.xls, .ppt) by making them 0 bytes long. This can result in
non-recoverable data. <br>
<br>
<font size=2>
<dd>Repair Notes:</b><font size=2> <br>
<br>

<dd>To remove this worm, you should perform the following steps:
<font size=2>
</dl>
<ol>
<li>Remove the line
<font size=2>run=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Explore.exe</i><font size=2> from the
WIN.INI file
<li>Delete the file &quot;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\EXPLORE.EXE&quot;. If the
file is currently in use, you may need to reboot first.
</ol><br>
<font size=2>Gary<br>
Gary West<br>
Director of Computing Services<br>
Greenwood School District 50<br>
Voice:&nbsp; 864/941-5466<br>
Fax:&nbsp; 864/941-5431<br>
<font size=2><a
 href="mailto:westg@mail.gwd50.k12.sc.us">westg@mail.gwd50.k12.sc.us</a><br>
<font size=2>Website:&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.gwd50.k12.sc.us"><font size=2>www.gwd50.k12.sc.us</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</font><br>

<font face="Lucida Calligraphy" color="#FF00FF">Janet Shay<br>
djshay@prtcnet.com</font></html>

--=====================_8223156==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:13:05 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Moving beyond yesterday's acronym

>I'm a little embarrassed that I spotted the vulgar
term so quickly...

Wull gawrsh, what's vulgar about "Read The Friendly
Manual"?

-RAH, all innocence
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:17:27 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      posting to colleagues
In-Reply-To:  <199906111516.IAA23170@decibel.electriciti.com>

Other professional lists recognize the (invented) email Peter principle
that errors are most likely to surface in posting to groups of colleagues.

Can't we all just accept that no one intends to post an error and and
others (especially here) can recognize typos and unintended slips?




Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:39:30 -0700
Reply-To:     nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: ok, this calls for a silly contest ...

In effect, you have effected a most effectively affective affectation with
immediately effective effects affecting  the affect of all affected.
>
>
>The effect that your affectation produced on the affect of my affected
patient
>was such that he tried to effect a complete change of behavior. Your
affecting
>of that particular mannerism was, effectively, insulting to him, which had
the
>effect on my patient of causing him to affect indifference, which in
effect,
>he was unable to do. My patient has decided that he has had enough and,
with
>his personal effects, has moved to Botswana. His change of address will be
>effective immediately, to the effect that you will be unable to effect an
>effective resolution to his current lack of affection for you.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:40:46 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Medium-Short Rant re Usage

Ann Truesdale wrote:
>in Maryland, where she was from, they mashed
potatoes.

I've been known to beetle my champ :-)

I don't have my dictionary here. Does anyone know the
etymology of "beetle" as used above? I vaguely recall
its being related to "beetled brow" (frowning,
wrinkled forehead).
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:46:27 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: grammar

Janet Shay wrote:
>should say, "I couldn't care less."  If you could
>care less, that means that you do care to an extent.
>When people use the phrase, they are intending to
>imply that they don't care, and that's not what their

>words mean.

What does their tone of voice mean? "I could care
less" sarcastically delivered ...
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:49:18 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Robin Hilp <rolybear@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: peeve list

> 1)    "Further" vs. "Farther"....>> 2)    "Despite"
vs. "In Spite Of"....>
> 3)    "Insure" vs. "Ensure"....>
> 4)    And my very absolute hopefully basically to
the max favorite: "Which"
> vs. "That"....

"Lie" vs "Lay" ...
===
RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:13:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Mary Ann Meyers <ljmmam@XPLORENET.COM>
Subject:      Glut of Rants?

Okay, it was my first posting.  Did I misunderstand your posting rules?  =
I sent my rant in a couple of days ago, and it hasn't shown up.  Are you =
suffering a glut of rants and a technological problem in delivering =
these?  Oh well, here's my second go at it:

There's Reasons to Rant, Isn't There?

My favorite:
        There's things I want to talk about...there's places I want to go. . =
.there's people I want to see, etc.

        For Mark--"And a bunch of indexers attacking the matter will not make =
one iota of difference."--

        I are glad to have this opportunity to voice my angst.  My television =
set refuses to respond to my groans of agony over grammatical usage.  =
There's indexers listening out there in the ether--how comforting!  I =
are hopeful that Index-L continues to be educational and entertaining.

Mary Ann Meyers=20
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:13:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Elizabeth Bolton <ebolton@CI.KEENE.NH.US>
Subject:      Re: Another Grammar Post

Sure in some areas, countries, etc. the "t" in often has always been
pronounced.  In the last few years, however, it has become widespread.  I
date if from a song - can't remember anything but the line - "like children
ofTen do" - it may be an English band.  As I mentioned, in my earlier post,
The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations is superb and I love what he has
to say about this pronunciation.  I won't dig myself into a hole by
speculating on the reasons for its popularity.

Liz Bolton

P.S. I've lived in New England all my life and until 2 -3 years ago rarely,
or at least infrequently, heard the "t" pronounced.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Hilp [mailto:rolybear@YAHOO.COM]
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 1:00 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject: Re: Another Grammar Post
>
>
> Elizabeth Bolton wrote:
> >current fad of pronouncing the "T" in often.
>
> How "current" do you mean? I recall hearing the "T in
> often" from acquaintances in the UK and New England
> back in 1970 or so. I think "ofTen" is a regional
> variation, like "Long GIsland" ... pEEcan vs p'cAHn
> ... pah'n me vs pardon me ... Looziana vs
> Lou-ee-zee-ana ... herb vs 'erb ...
> ===
> RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:27:52 +0000
Reply-To:     connolly@neca.com
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM>
Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services
Subject:      Re: ok, this calls for a silly contest ...

Effectively, yes.

>
> In effect, you have effected a most effectively affective affectation with
> immediately effective effects affecting  the affect of all affected.
> >
> >
> >The effect that your affectation produced on the affect of my affected
> patient
> >was such that he tried to effect a complete change of behavior. Your
> affecting
> >of that particular mannerism was, effectively, insulting to him, which had
> the
> >effect on my patient of causing him to affect indifference, which in
> effect,
> >he was unable to do. My patient has decided that he has had enough and,
> with
> >his personal effects, has moved to Botswana. His change of address will be
> >effective immediately, to the effect that you will be unable to effect an
> >effective resolution to his current lack of affection for you.
> >

--
=============================
Daniel A. Connolly
mailto:connolly@neca.com
Word For Word Indexing Services
http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com
Woodstock, CT, USA
=============================
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:43:57 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      URGENT CALL TO ACTION

I hate to interrupt the grammar lesson, but this forward may still interest
some members.

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

From:   "Postal Watch", INTERNET:news@postalwatch.org

<snip>

URGENT !!! - CALL TO ACTION (Not Tomorrow TODAY!)
                     _______________________________


To      : All PostalWatch Members and Subscribers

>From    : PostalWatch, Inc.
                 3631 Virginia Beach Blvd., Suite 100
                 Virginia Beach, VA 23452
                 Phone: 1-877-5POSTAL (1-800-576-7825)
                  http://www.postalwatch.org

Date    :    June 11, 1999

Subject :   URGENT !!! - FAX, or E-mail ALL House Appropriations
                  Members and Congressman Todd Tiahrt



We are less two weeks away from the Postal Service-imposed deadline
for collection of all 1583 forms.

It is now imperative that you contact your Congressman and all members of
the
Appropriation Committee urging them to support Congressman Todd Tiahrt's
efforts
to attach an amendment onto the Treasury, Postal Services and General
Government
Appropriations bill.  (All letters should be one page or less and should
focus on how
these regulations are going to effect YOU.

Everyone should send Congressman Todd Tiahrt of Kansas note (fax or email)
thanking him for his efforts to get an amendment attached to the
Appropriations
bill while in the Appropriations Committee as well as co-sponsoring of H.J.
Res.
55 in support of our cause.  Fax 202-225-3489 tiahrt@mail.house.gov

A positive vote in our behalf by Appropriations Committee members
will bar the U.S. Postal Service from utilizing any appropriations
for fiscal year 2000 in enforcement of the "death regs", as many
CMRAs call them.

Below is a list of all Appropriations Committee members, their
Washington, DC phone #s, FAX #s, and E-mail addresses.

It takes less time to write the Congressmen than it does to fill
out the new forms.  Please call, write, and fax your comments on
the new Regs to as many members as you can, and urge your
boxholders to do the same.

A great deal of information is available from PostalWatch's website
at http://www.postalwatch.org/.  Persons who have no window-based
access to the Web (like Juno members) can send an e-mail to
subscribe@postalwatch.org in order to receive a daily update.

Person without Web access can call 1-877-5POSTAL (1-877-576-7825)
to get the latest news on this important issue.

Lastly, please give us all the support you can.  We've spent
a great deal of our own time and moneys in getting the word out
and performing lobbying efforts. With your support and only with your
support we
can overturn these regulations.

Thank you for your efforts and support..

PostalWatch, Inc.
subscribe@postalwatch.org

----


                        U.S. House Appropriations Committee


Name                    State   Party   Fax #           Phone #
E-Mail
____________ _____   _______ ____________    ____________

James Clyburn           SC06    D       202-225-2313    202-225-3315
jclyburn@mail.house.gov

Sam Farr                CA17    D       202-225-6791    202-225-2861
samfarr@mail.house.gov

Ralph Regula            OH16    R       202-225-3059    202-225-3876
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Carolyn Cheeks          MI15    D       202-225-5730    202-225-2261    N/A

Jack Kingston           GA01    R       202-226-2269    202-225-5831
jack.kingston@mail.house.gov

Carrie P. Meek          FL17    D       202-226-0777    202-225-4506    N/A

Dan Miller              FL13    R       202-226-0828    202-225-5015
miller13@mail.house.gov

John E. Peterson        PA05    R       202-225-5796    202-225-5121
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

C. W. Bill Young        FL10    R       202-225-9764    202-225-5961    N/A

John P. Murtha          PA12    D       202-225-5709    202-225-2065
murtha@mail.house.gov

David L. Hobson         OH07    R       202-225-1984    202-225-4324
http://www.house.gov/hobson/formmail.htm

Rosa L. DeLauro         CT03    D       202-225-4890    202-225-3661
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Tom Latham              IA05    R       202-225-3301    202-225-5476
tom.latham@mail.house.gov

Zach Wamp               TN03    R       202-225-3494    202-225-3271
http://www.citizendirect.net/

R.``Duke'' Cunningham   CA51    R       202-225-2558    202-225-5452    N/A

Ron Packard             CA48    R       202-225-0134    202-225-3906
rep.packard@mail.house.gov

Jerry Lewis             CA40    R       202-225-6498    202-225-5861    N/A

Chet Edwards            TX11    D       202-225-0350    202-225-6105
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Kay Granger             TX12    R       202-225-5683    202-225-5071
texas.granger@mail.house.gov

Lucille Roybal-Allard   CA33    D       202-226-0350    202-225-1766    N/A

Julian C. Dixon         CA32    D       202-225-4091    202-225-7084    N/A

Tom DeLay               TX22    R       202-225-5241    202-225-5951
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Henry Bonilla           TX23    R       202-225-2237    202-225-4511
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Allen Boyd              FL02    D       202-225-5615    202-225-5235
rep.boyd@mail.house.gov

Todd Tiahrt             KS04    R       202-225-3489    202-225-6216
tiahrt@mail.house.gov

Joe Knollenberg         MI11    R       202-226-2356    202-225-5802    N/A

Martin Olav Sabo        MN05    D       202-225-4886    202-225-4755
martin.sabo@mail.house.gov

Jo Ann Emerson          MO08    R       N/A             202-225-4404
joann.emerson@mail.house.gov

Roger F. Wicker         MS01    R       202-225-3549    202-225-4306
roger.wicker@mail.house.gov

Steny H. Hoyer          MD05    D       202-225-4300    202-225-4131    N/A

David E. Price          NC04    D       202-225-2014    202-225-1784
david.price@mail.house.gov

John W. Olver           MA01    D       202-226-1224    202-225-5335
john.olver@mail.house.gov

Charles H. Taylor       NC11    R       202-226-6405    202-225-6401
repcharles.taylor@mail.house.gov

John E. Sununu          NH01    R       202-225-5822    202-225-5456
Rep.Sununu@mail.house.gov

Marcy Kaptur            OH09    D       202-225-7711    202-225-4146
rep.kaptur@mail.house.gov

Anne M. Northup         KY03    R       202-225-5776    202-225-5401
rep.northup@mail.house.gov

Ernest J. Istook, Jr.   OK05    R       202-226-1463    202-225-2132
istook@mail.house.gov

Rodney P. Frelinghuysen NJ11    R       202-225-3186    202-225-5034
rodney.frelinghuysen@mail.house.gov

Joe Skeen               NM02    R       202-225-9599    202-225-2365
joe.skeen@mail.house.gov

Peter J. Visclosky      IN01    D       202-225-2493    202-225-2461
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Michael P. Forbes       NY01    R       202-225-3143    202-225-3826
mike.forbes@mail.house.gov

John Edward Porter      IL10    R       202-225-0837    202-225-4835
http://www.house.gov/porter/wyr.htm

Jose E. Serrano         NY16    D       202-225-6001    202-225-4361
jserrano@mail.house.gov

Nita M. Lowey           NY18    D       202-225-0546    202-225-6506
nita.lowey@mail.house.gov

Jesse L. Jackson, Jr.   IL02    D       202-225-0899    202-225-0773
comments@jessejacksonjr.org

James T. Walsh          NY25    R       202-225-4042    202-225-3701
rep.james.walsh@mail.house.gov

Maurice D. Hinchey      NY26    D       202-226-0774    202-225-6335
mhinchey@mail.house.gov

Harold Rogers           KY05    R       202-225-0940    202-225-4601    N/A

Sonny Callahan          AL01    R       202-225-0562    202-225-4931
sonny.callahan@mail.house.gov

Nancy Pelosi            CA08    D       202-225-8259    202-225-4965
sf.nancy@mail.house.gov

Jay Dickey              AR04    R       202-225-1314    202-225-3772
talk2jay@mail.house.gov

James P. Moran          VA08    D       202-225-0017    202-225-4376
jim.moran@mail.house.gov

Alan B. Mollohan        WV01    D       202-225-7564    202-225-4172    N/A

Ed Pastor               AZ02    D       202-225-1655    202-225-4065
ed.pastor@mail.house.gov

Frank R. Wolf           VA10    R       202-225-0437    202-225-5136
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Norman D. Dicks         WA06    D       202-226-1176    202-225-5916
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Robert B. Aderholt      AL04    R       202-225-5587    202-225-4876
robert.aderholt@mail.house.gov

George Nethercutt, Jr.  WA05    R       202-225-3392    202-225-2006
george.nethercutt-pub@mail.house.gov

Robert Cramer, Jr.      AL05    D       202-225-4392    202-225-4801
budmail@mail.house.gov

David R. Obey           WI07    D       N/A             202-225
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:52:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Sullivan, John" <John_Sullivan@STRATUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: URGENT CALL TO ACTION

I don't have a clue what this is about. Dafydd -- can you enlighten us?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott [SMTP:75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM]
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:44 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      URGENT CALL TO ACTION
>
> I hate to interrupt the grammar lesson, but this forward may still
> interest
> some members.
>
> ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
>
> From:   "Postal Watch", INTERNET:news@postalwatch.org
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:00:46 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Karen Field <KarenF@TRITECH.COM>
Subject:      Re: Another Grammar Post

        An aside:

         "like children
ofTen do" -

It's from the song "Counting Blue Cars"--or is it just "Blue Cars"? Can't
think of the group's name and the moment. My favorite line from the song:
"Tell me all your thoughts on God, 'cause I'd really like to meet Her." Food
for thought.

Karen
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:12:06 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Pressnell, Karen" <kpressnell@TI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Another Grammar Post

The group's name is (no joke here) Dishwalla.
:-)
You were correct--the title is "Counting Blue Cars."

Karen P.

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Field [mailto:KarenF@TRITECH.COM]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:01 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
Subject: Re: Another Grammar Post


        An aside:

         "like children
ofTen do" -

It's from the song "Counting Blue Cars"--or is it just "Blue Cars"? Can't
think of the group's name and the moment. My favorite line from the song:
"Tell me all your thoughts on God, 'cause I'd really like to meet Her." Food
for thought.

Karen
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:29:10 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Pam Rider <prider@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject:      Hoax Alert

From the copyediting list:

You may receive e-mail about the end of free e-mail. The message will claim
that Congress is considering bill "602P" that would levy a 5 cent charge on
every e-mail, to be collected by the US Postal Service.

Relax.

First, it's a hoax.

Second, it's a Canadian hoax.

A little research and a small amount of common sense would confirm that
this is a hoax, but so many people seem to be willing to accept ANYTHING
that they receive (even from somebody they don't know) via the Internet as
gospel.

Don't pass it on. And if you receive it from someone, please let them know
how foolish they're making themselves look by passing along information
without first verifying it.

Thank you!

Further details:
-------------------------------------
Urban Legend Update: Postage Tax Hoax
-------------------------------------

About a month ago, a story circulated around the Net warning Canadians
that

     ... Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent
     surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service
     Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by
     the ISP.  Toronto lawyer Richard Stepp QC is working to prevent
     this legislation from becoming law.

     The Canada Post Corporation is claiming that lost revenue due to
     the proliferation of email is costing nearly $23,000,000 in
     revenue per year ...

The letter goes on to warn that

     ... One back-bencher, Liberal Tony Schnell (NB) has even
     suggested a "twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on all
     Internet service" above and beyond the government's proposed
     email charges ...

Unfortunately, the letter is yet another Internet hoax.  According to
a recent column in the Toronto Sun,

     Don't rush to the keyboards and phones.  The lawyer does not
     exist.  The law firm whose name appears on the alert does not
     exist.  There is no MP named Schnell.  Forget Bill 602P; that's
     not even the way bills are numbered.

     [quote shamelessly stolen from David Emery's "Email Tax for
     Canada" column, which we will talk about in a moment ... maybe.]

Proving the old saying "everything old is new again," here is a recent
story that has been floating around the Net.  See if you notice any
similarities.  The story says that

     Bill 602P will permit the [US] Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent
     surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service
     Providers at source.  The consumer would then be billed in turn
     by the ISP.  Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working
     without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law.

     The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the
     proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue
     per year.

The letter goes on to warn that

     One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a "twenty to
     forty dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above
     and beyond the government's proposed email charges

Deja vu?  Yep.  The message floating around the Net right now is
almost word for word the same message that floated around Canada in
May.  [I particularly enjoyed the fact that Mr. Schnell was able to
switch from being a Canadian Liberal to being an American Republican
in less than a month -- ain't technology wonderful?!]

For the record, both stories are hoaxes.  Neither Canada nor the US is
considering an email surcharge.  Neither Canada nor the US has a
lawmaker named "Tony Schnell" [that's what happens when you jump
parties!].  Neither Canada nor the US has a bill 602P (in Canada,
bills from the Senate begin with the letter S and bills from the
Commons begin with the letter C; in the US, bills from the Senate
begin with the letter S and bills from the House begin with the letter
H).  Finally, neither Toronto nor Washington has a lawyer named
Richard Stepp.

... and, no, Australia isn't considering an email surcharge either. :P

For more information about this story, visit David Emery's new site at

<A HREF="http://urbanlegends.about.com/">
http://urbanlegends.about.com/ </A>.


---
Bill Blinn (mailto:wblinn@columbus.rr.com)  http://www.blinn.com
Daughters: http://www.blinn.com/katie http://www.blinn.com/liz
Don't worry about what other people are thinking about you. They're too
busy worrying about what you are thinking about them.
-- Jim Hart

** Archive URL: http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/copyediting-l.html


Pam Rider
Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth
prider@electriciti.com
prider@tsktsk.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:11:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Ann Norcross <norcross@IPASS.NET>
Subject:      Freelance opportunities - 2 items

Hello, all:

Here are two freelance opportunities from a long-time client of
mine; I can't take on either one, and said I would post details
here.  PLEASE reply directly to the contact person, not to me or
to the list.

Thanks.

Regards,
Ann

1. Publication catalog needs index.  This catalog is about 60
pages long, size is 6x9, and it is a catalog of publications put
out by the UNC School of Government.  The titles are in
alphabetical order in the catalog, so no title index is needed.
They want the subject and author index updated for this issue of
the catalog.  The proofs are available now, I believe, and the
index would be due back to them within a week.  Please contact
Lucille Fidler at (919)966-5911 or email her at
fidler@iogmail.iog.unc.edu

2. 600 page manuscript is almost ready to go to edit; indexing
would happen sometime in the late Fall. Topic: school employment
law.  Please contact Lucille Fidler at (919)966-5911 or email her
at fidler@iogmail.iog.unc.edu

That's it!
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:42:30 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Kim Harris <KimIndex@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: unreadable diskette-help!

<Yes.  You'd not only have to buy software to allow you to read the Mac
disk, but also to translate from Mac Word to whatever. >

'm apologise for being obvious but I've had similar problems and all that was
necessary was to ask the publisher to send it (e-mail, if urgent) in a
different format.

I can't see a problem?! Why is that an issue?


Kim
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:57:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" <dwindex@LOUISA.NET>
Subject:      Re: unreadable diskette-help!

Thanks to those who responded.  Things are up in the air until next week,
at which point I may have other questions. Have a wonderful weekend,
everyone!

Paula C. Durbin-Westby
dwindex@louisa.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 09:10:13 +1000
Reply-To:     diagonal@hermes.net.au
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne <diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU>
Subject:      Re: grammar - could care less
In-Reply-To:  <B0001066251@blue.hermes.net.au>

Janet Shay wrote:


> Something that almost everyone says that seems improper to me and
> really makes
> my skin crawl is this one:  "I could care less."  One should say,
> "I couldn't
> care less."  If you could care less, that means that you do care to an
> extent.

British usage is (or was) "I couldn't care less". But US usage is meant to
be sarcastic, with the emphasis on 'could', as in "I COULD care less if I
really really tried very very hard, but it would be extremely difficult."

Jon
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:59:45 -0700
Reply-To:     jeanmidd@prodigy.net
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jean Middleton <jeanmidd@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      bring and take

--------------28B175CB27AE937CA36D0667
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Since I was the one who began this particular thread, I believe that a
quotation from Bernstein's The Careful Writer is in order. I realize
that some of the distinctions made by some of us have been lost, and I
am proud of the dynamic quality of the English language. Here is what
Bernstein says:

"The verb to bring, when it denotes physical movement at all, denotes it
in the direction of the speaker or writer. The sentence, 'The Communists
were reported to have brought troops into Tibet,' would be proper news
writing in The Early Tibet (that's the bulldog edition), but would be
improper in an article written in New York for The Times. The movement
opposite to bring is take, but that verb would not do in the sentence
cited. It would have to be moved or sent or dispatched."

It depends upon where you are when you use bring and take.

Jean Middleton
IndexEmpire



--------------28B175CB27AE937CA36D0667
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Since I was the one who began this particular thread, I believe that a
quotation from Bernstein's <i>The Careful Writer </i>is in order. I realize
that some of the distinctions made by some of us have been lost, and I
am proud of the dynamic quality of the English language. Here is what Bernstein
says:
<p>"The verb <i>to bring</i>, when it denotes physical movement at all,
denotes it in the direction of the speaker or writer. The sentence, 'The
Communists were reported to have brought troops into Tibet,' would be proper
news writing in <i>The Early Tibet </i>(that's the bulldog edition), but
would be improper in an article written in New York for <i>The Times</i>.
The movement opposite to <i>bring</i> is <i>take</i>, but that verb would
not do in the sentence cited. It would have to be <i>moved</i> or <i>sent
</i>or <i>dispatched</i>."<i></i>
<p>It depends upon where you are when you use <i>bring</i> and <i>take</i>.
<p>Jean Middleton
<br><b><i>IndexEmpire</i></b>
<br><i></i>&nbsp;
<br><i></i>&nbsp;</html>

--------------28B175CB27AE937CA36D0667--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 00:14:43 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Deborah Shaw <shawd@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: apostrophe ess
In-Reply-To:  <199906111246.rm2fbv.j2g.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com>

Chris's
KRIS-IS

Sources:
Strunk & White 1.1, page 1
_The Chicago Manual of Style_14

Run, don't walk, to the bookstore if you don't own a copy of Strunk &
White, _The Elements of Style_. You can probably get the 2nd ed. for a $1
at a used book store, but the 3rd ed., with index, would be better.

Deborah

At 09:48 AM 11-06-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Assuming the homework actually *is* done, would you
>write "Chris' homework is done" or "Chris's homework
>is done" -- and how would you pronounce it?
>===
>RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)


 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Copyediting    *    Indexing    *    Proofreading    *    Writing

 shawd@mindspring.com                          North Carolina, USA
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 09:51:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Craig Brown <lastword@I1.NET>
Subject:      Words

To those interested in words and their meanings (and apparently there are
many) I recommend World Wide Words, a weekly electronic newsletter by
Michael Quinion.  More information available at:
http://www.quinion.com/words/

Craig Brown
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:01:32 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: URGENT CALL TO ACTION

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! My forwarded message seems to have literally
lost
all its content...

The message was an updated bit of information from postalwatch.org, to
which I subscribed
after the recent flap on this List regarding upcoming -- threatened? --
postal regulations. When
I trimmed the header for clarity either I accidentally trashed the
contents, or my computer did without
telling me.

I no longer have the message filed, so I suggest trying
http://www.postalwatch.org, for information.

Incidentally, I have a Post Office Box located at a Post Office and I've
not seen any notices about
changes to Box Rules & Regulations. Does all this foment and turbulence
apply to REAL boxes or
only to those operated by private outfits?

Sorry abaht that,
Dave T.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:20:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Peter Rooney <magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      URGENT CALL TO ACTION

David Lloyd Talcott forwarded a message from POSTALWATCH.ORG, and someone else
 asked what this
is all about. For background, go back to around June 1 - 4, 1999, and read the
 messages on
INDEX-L under the subject "Your Government at Work". What it is about, is this.
  In recent years, a needed type of business has sprung into being, called a
 Commercial Mail
Receiving Agency (CMRA). The best known CMRA is possibly Mailboxes, Etc. (a
 franchise). As a
freelance indexer, I use a CMRA, because it is more efficient than the
 U.S.Postal Service, is
safer, has longer hours (8am to 8pm, 6 days, full operation, and 24-hour
 access), can send and
receive Fedex and UPS packages, can send and receive messenger packages (and I
 don't have to
wait around for the messenger to arrive), sells small items of stationery, has a
 copy machine on
premises, etc etc etc. If a letter is addressed to me at my CMRA address, the
 local post office
puts the letter in a bag with all the other mail going to the CMRA that day, and
 the CMRA staff
themselves sort and distribute the mail to individual boxes. A big big savings
 to the postal
service, it would seem.
  However, the U.S. Postal Service (supposedly a self-sustaining
 quasi-governmental operation)
does not like this competition apparently, and has recently promulgated
 regulations which would
throw a big bucket of cold water on the CMRAs, and for that matter, would affect
 Fedex and UPS
as well. The immediate effect on me is that I need to notify pronto all my
 customers, magazines,
directories in which I advertise, etc. that they must address my mail in the
 format "PMB 123"
rather than the former "#X6" or "Suite X6". (PMB means Private Mail Box). A
 small change,
seemingly, but the postal service WILL NOT DELIVER mail that is addressed in the
 old way. This
would require changing all my letterhead stationery, for one thing. Anyway, a
 considerable
hassle. I am also required to register my *real* identity with the USPS, and
 prove it with a
photo ID (such as a passport).
  Basically this is special-interest legislation meant to protect an
 unproductive monopoly which
is supposed to be able to compete on its own. I also think the regulations have
 a f*sc*st flavor
(speaking personally).
  So that's the background.
  The URGENCY is that an important vote will take place in the House
 Appropriations Committee
this coming Tuesday, June 15. An amendment to the House Appropriations bill will
 make these
proposed regulations unenforceable. The amendment is called the Tiahrt
 amendment. If you are a
freelance indexer using a CMRA, you should make every effort to reach your
 congressman on Monday
and say that you support the Tiahrt amendment which stops the CMRA regulations.
  Better yet, if your congressmen is one of the 45 members of the Appropriations
 committee.
Their fax numbers and phone numbers are given in D.L. Talcott's posting. Here
 are the names:
Bill, Regula, Lewis, Porter, Rogers, Skeen, Wolf, Delay (Tom!), Kolbe, Packard,
 Callahan, Walsh,
Taylor, Hobson, Istook, Bonilla, Knollenberg, Miller, Dickey, Kingston,
 Frelinghuysen, Wicker,
Forbes, Nethercutt, Cunningham, Tiahrt, Wamp, Latham, Northupp, Aderholt,
 Emerson, Sununu,
Granger, Peterson, Obey, Murtha, Dicks, Sabo, Dixon, Hoyer, Mollohan, Kaptur,
 Pelosi, Visclosky,
Lowey, Sarrano, DeLauro, Moran, Oliver, Pastor, Meek, Price, Edwards, Cramer,
 Clyburn, Hinchey,
Roybal-Allard, Farr, Jackson (Jesse Jr!), Kilpatrick, Boyd . . . whew!
  ***
  Here is a sample letter:
  Dear Congressman ____
  I am a small business owner/freelance editor in your District. My place of
 business is located
at ...
  The House Appropriations Committee will vote on the FY 2000 Treasury/Postal
 Service
Appropriations Bill in the next few days.
  Congressman Todd Tiahrt will offer an amendment to put a moratorium on new
 USPS CMRA
regulations. PLEASE SUPPORT REP. TIAHRT'S AMENDMENT. IT IS VITALLY IMPORTANT TO
 ME.
  These new regulations invade my privacy and impose many unnecessary burdens on
 me as a postal
customer. I am very opposed to these regulations.
  Please support the Tiahrt amendment to repeal these unnecessary regulations.
  Sincerely,
  YOUR NAME
  ADDRESS
***
  Even if you are not a freelancer and not personally affected by this
 regulations, it would be
appreciated if you would show your solidarity with a similar letter, fax, or
 phone call to your
own representative.
  For ongoing information on this struggle, go to WWW.POSTALWATCH.ORG
  Thanks very much for your attention and efforts.
  Peter Rooney (Director, ASI), magnetix@ix.netcom.com
***



Peter Rooney
magnetix@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:59:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Peter Rooney <magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      URGENT CALL TO ACTION (formatted better)

From: magnetix@ix.netcom.com
To: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Date: 06/13/99 00:18:16
Subject: URGENT CALL TO ACTION

David Lloyd Talcott forwarded a message from POSTALWATCH.ORG, and
someone else asked what this is all about. For background, go back to
around June 1 - 4, 1999, and read the messages on INDEX-L under the
subject "Your Government at Work". What it is about, is this.
  In recent years, a needed type of business has sprung into being,
called a Commercial Mail Receiving Agency (CMRA). The best known CMRA is
possibly Mailboxes, Etc. (a franchise). As a freelance indexer, I use a
CMRA, because it is more efficient than the U.S.Postal Service, is
safer, has longer hours (8am to 8pm, 6 days, full operation, and 24-hour
access), can send and receive Fedex and UPS packages, can send and
receive messenger packages (and I don't have to wait around for the
messenger to arrive), sells small items of stationery, has a copy
machine on premises, etc etc etc. If a letter is addressed to me at my
CMRA address, the local post office puts the letter in a bag with all
the other mail going to the CMRA that day, and the CMRA staff themselves
sort and distribute the mail to individual boxes. A big big savings to
the postal service, it would seem.
  However, the U.S. Postal Service (supposedly a self-sustaining quasi-
governmental operation)does not like this competition apparently, and
has recently promulgated regulations which would throw a big bucket of
cold water on the CMRAs, and for that matter, would affect Fedex and UPS
as well. The immediate effect on me is that I need to notify pronto all
my customers, magazines, directories in which I advertise, etc. that
they must address my mail in the format "PMB 123" rather than the former
"#X6" or "Suite X6". (PMB means Private Mail Box). A small change,
seemingly, but the postal service WILL NOT DELIVER mail that is
addressed in the old way. This would require changing all my letterhead
stationery, for one thing. Anyway, a considerable hassle. I am also
required to register my *real* identity with the USPS, and prove it with
a photo ID (such as a passport).
  Basically this is special-interest legislation meant to protect an
unproductive monopoly which is supposed to be able to compete on its
own. I also think the regulations have a f*sc*st flavor (speaking
personally).
  So that's the background.
  The URGENCY is that an important vote will take place in the House
Appropriations Committee this coming Tuesday, June 15. An amendment to
the House Appropriations bill will make these proposed regulations
unenforceable. The amendment is called the Tiahrt amendment. If you are
a freelance indexer using a CMRA, you should make every effort to reach
your congressman on Monday and say that you support the Tiahrt amendment
which stops the CMRA regulations.
  Better yet, if your congressmen is one of the 45 members of the
Appropriations committee.
Their fax numbers and phone numbers are given in D.L. Talcott's posting.
Here are the names:
Bill, Regula, Lewis, Porter, Rogers, Skeen, Wolf, Delay (Tom!), Kolbe,
Packard, Callahan, Walsh,Taylor, Hobson, Istook, Bonilla, Knollenberg,
Miller, Dickey, Kingston, Frelinghuysen, Wicker, Forbes, Nethercutt,
Cunningham, Tiahrt, Wamp, Latham, Northupp, Aderholt, Emerson, Sununu,
Granger, Peterson, Obey, Murtha, Dicks, Sabo, Dixon, Hoyer, Mollohan,
Kaptur, Pelosi, Visclosky, Lowey, Sarrano, DeLauro, Moran, Oliver,
Pastor, Meek, Price, Edwards, Cramer, Clyburn, Hinchey, Roybal-Allard,
Farr, Jackson (Jesse Jr!), Kilpatrick, Boyd . . . whew!
  ***
  Here is a sample letter:
  Dear Congressman ____
  I am a small business owner/freelance editor in your District. My
place of business is located
at ...
  The House Appropriations Committee will vote on the FY 2000
Treasury/Postal Service Appropriations Bill in the next few days.
  Congressman Todd Tiahrt will offer an amendment to put a moratorium on
new USPS CMRA regulations. PLEASE SUPPORT REP. TIAHRT'S AMENDMENT. IT IS
VITALLY IMPORTANT TO ME.
  These new regulations invade my privacy and impose many unnecessary
burdens on me as a postal customer. I am very opposed to these
regulations.
  Please support the Tiahrt amendment to repeal these unnecessary
regulations.
  Sincerely,
  YOUR NAME
  ADDRESS
***
  Even if you are not a freelancer and not personally affected by this
regulations, it would be appreciated if you would show your solidarity
with a similar letter, fax, or phone call to your own representative.
  For ongoing information on this struggle, go to WWW.POSTALWATCH.ORG
  Thanks very much for your attention and efforts.
  Peter Rooney (Director, ASI), magnetix@ix.netcom.com
***






Peter Rooney
magnetix@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:32:22 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Dana Cook <levans@INTERLOG.COM>

Please unsubscribe Index-L Dana Cook

Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:15:41 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject:      ASI Indy meetings, reports on

So...how were the meetings?

All of us stay-at-homes would like to hear all about it!

Cynthia




*****************************************

Cynthia D. Bertelsen
Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services
Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing
cbertel@usit.net
Web page:  http://www.usit.com/cbertel/

"When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no
literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no
social harmony." --Careme
******************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:26:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barb Ferretti <barbf@BCPL.NET>
Subject:      looking for advice

Hi to all,
I have been a lurker on this list for a couple of years now and, although I
don't often join in discussions, I very much enjoy this list and have
learned alot from all of you.

I have been an indexer for more than 7 years now and have always had good
comments on my indexes and much repeat business from my customers. I have
just begun working for a new customer, for whom I have now completed 2
indexes. I was paid very promptly, but then found out 2 months after doing
the 1st index that the author had not been pleased with the index I
submitted and refused to use it (I thought the index was very good and so
did the publisher) without apparently specifying what problems he had with
the index. The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for the
index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving them
much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby paying
them back for paying me.

I am not sure how to handle this. I was not given an opportunity to resubmit
the index to the author's specifications, although the publisher has let me
know they knew there was a problem much earlier, before publication of the
book.

Has this happened to anyone else? How should I handle this?
Thanks very much.
Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:18:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Charles Anderson <c.anderson.seattle@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

I had several similar problems with authors back in the days when I was
willing to contract directly with an author - which is one reason I will no
longer accept direct contracts with authors.  I never had an author refuse
to pay, but I had several relucant ones - particularly authors who believed
every word they wrote was priceless - I finally told one that if he wanted a
concordance, he should have said so! (Incidentally, I've been a free-lance
indexer for 27 years, and the only problems I've ever had have come from
authors directly - I've never had an editor question my judgement or quality
of work.)

 I think the publisher is being very unfair, particularly if they knew there
were problems earlier.  I guess it depends on how much the new contact means
to your income - but if they would pull this on you now, it seems to me that
you could be looking at more problems down the road - and is it worth it?

Charles
-
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:38:34 -0300
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Noeline Bridge <nbridge@NB.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Looking for advice

The publisher is trying to make you pay for their mistake. They should have
dealt with the matter at the time they knew the author wasn't satisfied with
the index--you say they were aware of a problem before publication (at
least, they told you they were). Given that, they should have returned your
index then, for you to revise it, or had someone else do the work. But they
paid you and published the book, presumably without an index, and said
nothing to you at the time. It's their financial loss, and you are not
responsible (in my un-legal opinion).

You should take the position that if they had returned your index, stating
that the author wasn't satisfied, you would have been willing to rework it
at the time--working with the author, if necessary (and it probably would
have been, if the publisher couldn't tell you why the author was
dissatisfied). But they paid you, giving the impression that everything was
satisfactory. If they were aware of problems, they should not have paid you
until the matter was cleared up. It's too late now. The problem with your
index occurred back then, but they still paid you when it may or may not
have been clear that the author wasn't going to pay them for the index.

However, all this is easier said than done. You say that you are beginning
in indexing, and it appears that this is your first steady client, one
prepared to give you future work (every beginner's dream). I certainly
wouldn't blame you for doing some negotiation on it, rather than refusing
outright. But if so, you have to be very careful about not allowing them to
take shoddy advantage of you--you have to fight this at some level or you
can't go on working for this publisher by refusing to surrender the whole
amount in reduced payments, 50% or some such.

I'll be interested to see what others have to say on this. There'll be
heated reaction. It's too bad it happened; as you know, if you've lurked for
2 years, most of us index for clients who treat us fairly, cooperatively,
and cordially almost all the time.

Noeline Bridge
BRIDGEWORK
nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca
295 Highfield Street
Moncton, NB E1C 5R4
Canada
phone 506-870-1113
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:39:50 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Sonsie Conroy <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

At 01:26 PM 6/13/1999 -0400, Barb Ferretti wrote:

>I have been an indexer for more than 7 years now and have always had good
>comments on my indexes and much repeat business from my customers. I have
>just begun working for a new customer, for whom I have now completed 2
>indexes. I was paid very promptly, but then found out 2 months after doing
>the 1st index that the author had not been pleased with the index I
>submitted and refused to use it (I thought the index was very good and so
>did the publisher) without apparently specifying what problems he had with
>the index. The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for the
>index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving them
>much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby paying
>them back for paying me.
>
>I am not sure how to handle this. I was not given an opportunity to resubmit
>the index to the author's specifications, although the publisher has let me
>know they knew there was a problem much earlier, before publication of the
>book.

This has never, thank goodness, happened to me. But the publisher's problem
with the author not paying for his index is the PUBLISHER'S problem, not
yours! Almost always, the author's contract with the publisher specifies who
is to pay for the index, and it's usually the author--out of royalties.
Maybe this publisher neglected to include the index in the author's
contract, or maybe this book is one where royalties will not be paid.
Regardless, it is not your problem and you don't owe them a penny.

If the PUBLISHER had complained about your work, I'm sure you would have
been glad to do whatever was necessary to fix the index. The company
accepted it, and you say even tells you the work was good. Therefore, you
have completed your contract with the publisher and the money you earned is
yours to keep.

Of course, you must realize that refusing to work for next to nothing for
some extended period of time may cost you this client. But IMO this is
preferable to becoming a slave to a company who would demand and expect such
efforts. Ultimately, you will have to decide what you feel comfortable
doing. But if the author will not specify what the problem was, and the
nonpayment issue really isn't yours to deal with, then IMO you should
explain politely to the publisher that you expect to be paid on
acceptance...they accepted your work, they paid you, and the issue is closed
as far as you're concerned.

        Sonsie
        sconroy@slonet.org
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:51:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Barb wrote:
> I have been an indexer for more than 7 years now and have always had good
> comments on my indexes and much repeat business from my customers. I have
> just begun working for a new customer, for whom I have now completed 2
> indexes. I was paid very promptly, but then found out 2 months after
doing
> the 1st index that the author had not been pleased with the index I
> submitted and refused to use it (I thought the index was very good and so
> did the publisher) without apparently specifying what problems he had
with
> the index. The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for the
> index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving them
> much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby paying
> them back for paying me.
>
> I am not sure how to handle this. I was not given an opportunity to
resubmit
> the index to the author's specifications, although the publisher has let
me
> know they knew there was a problem much earlier, before publication of
the
> book.

I don't know all the legal ins and outs which apply here, but it seems to
me that the publisher doesn't have a leg to stand on.  They contracted you
to do produce an index.  You produced one.  They paid you.  Dealing with
their author's refusal to pay up is their problem, not yours. If the author
had specific demands and expectations regarding the index, you should have
been told prior to beginning the work.  Unless the contract had a "subject
to author approval" clause, I think you can and should refuse to reduce
your rates to "reimburse" the publisher.  You don't owe them the money; the
author does.  Let them deal with him, and you stand firm.

It's odd that you have only been told about this now.  Did the book go to
press with your index, or was another index contracted?  Either way, if the
publisher knew that there were "problems," but did not tell you or let you
make the necessary changes, then they certainly have no right to expect you
to repay them for work you did in good faith and to the best of your
ability.  The fact that they paid you indicates that they were satisfied
with your work (until the author put in his/her oar.)  Incidentally, it
sounds to me as though the author may not have anticipated the cost of the
index, and that money, rather than any problems with the index itself, is
what is really motivating his/her refusal to pay for (or use?) the index.

Of course, you may lose the client if you refuse to reduce your rates.  You
will have to decide whether this client is more important than the money,
and whether this is symptomatic of wider problems with this publisher (or
editor.)  If you've been indexing for 7 years, I doubt you will have
trouble finding other clients, so don't let fear of losing this one dictate
your response.

Good luck!

Kara Pekar
Wordsmith Indexing Services
jkpekar@crosslink.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:18:10 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Cohen <BECohen653@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Hi Barb,

This is surely a new wrinkle that I haven't heard before. It's one thing for
the index to be rejected at the time of submission, but . . .

First of all, I commiserate with your frustration... esp. since you weren't
given a chance to remedy the rejected index. But how I would proceed in
negotiating a fair remedy for the situation would depend a lot on what
long-term outcome I would want:  do you want to keep the money but lose the
potential work? Or would you rather lose some cash but keep a valuable
client? (A lot depends on just how much money and just how valuable a client.)

I would probably refuse additional work from this client and refuse to
reimburse for an index that was accepted at the time I submitted it (assuming
I could substantiate the acceptance by having the editor's comments in
writing). I think I'd rationalize it to myself that I'd be glad to lose a
client like this. (Because this could be the tip of the iceberg rather than
one unusual situation.)

On the other hand, you could give the editor the benefit of the doubt. If I
though this was a unique circumstance in what could otherwise blossom into a
beautiful partnership, I might be willing to repay in a lump sum and take the
lumps implied in such an action, thereby generating good will with the editor
and (hopefully) creating a bond for future projects. Assuming these are
projects I feel I can't live without.

I would ask a lot of questions about what the expectations for future work
would be before making up my mind.

I don't think I'd go for the over-time payback just because it sounds like a
paperwork hassle--AND because it would be just my luck that the editor would
quit in a year and the new editor would firmly believe I was only ever
getting the lower amount! In other words, the risk of being perceived as an
indexer who works for less is probably too great (from the little bit you
have shared with us) for me to run the risk of that becoming the permanent
payment rate for this client. In which case, you haven't done yourself much
favor in the long-term by agreeing to bill at a lower rate for a specific
number of projects. (In a nutshell, I would probably want to continue to bill
at my current rate, and I might want a letter of agreement about how many
additional projects I might be promised for the foreseeable future, before
I'd be sending back any money.)

I'd love to hear what the outcome is, and especially why you decided to
whatever agreement you reach. (This is the sort of thing that probably no one
can tell you how to resolve because no one knows what value all the factors
have for you, but how  you resolve it and why would be informative for the
rest of us, too.)

And best of luck.

Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:37:21 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Homer Ellison <advms@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

While this has not happened to me with an index, the same principle applies
throughout the business world.  Neither the author nor the publisher
approached you at the time, communicating to you problems with the index.
You performed the service -- you were paid for the service.  It really is
that simple.

If you now make a deal with the publisher by reducing your rates, you are
setting yourself up to lose the publisher's respect, since the publisher
will see that he can now get reduced rates by criticizing the quality of
your work.  This means that you will lose all leverage for future
negotiations.  It is vitally important for your professional reputation and
the future of your business that you stand by the quality of your work and
your pricing.  If someone has a complaint, fine -- as long as they approach
you with it at the time, you will be in a position to deal with it.  But
coming to you later and saying that it was unsatisfactory, and that now you
must be punished, is very unprofessional on their part.

Regards,
Homer Ellison


-----Original Message-----
From: Barb Ferretti <barbf@BCPL.NET>
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 10:22 AM
Subject: looking for advice


>Hi to all,
>I have been a lurker on this list for a couple of years now and, although I
>don't often join in discussions, I very much enjoy this list and have
>learned alot from all of you.
>
>I have been an indexer for more than 7 years now and have always had good
>comments on my indexes and much repeat business from my customers. I have
>just begun working for a new customer, for whom I have now completed 2
>indexes. I was paid very promptly, but then found out 2 months after doing
>the 1st index that the author had not been pleased with the index I
>submitted and refused to use it (I thought the index was very good and so
>did the publisher) without apparently specifying what problems he had with
>the index. The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for the
>index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving them
>much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby paying
>them back for paying me.
>
>I am not sure how to handle this. I was not given an opportunity to
resubmit
>the index to the author's specifications, although the publisher has let me
>know they knew there was a problem much earlier, before publication of the
>book.
>
>Has this happened to anyone else? How should I handle this?
>Thanks very much.
>Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:58:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Jan C. Wright" <jancw@WRIGHTINFORMATION.COM>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice
In-Reply-To:  <199906131317.rm7pt1.6nt.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com>

Did you have a signed contract? If so, did you satisfy the terms in it? Was
your contract with the publisher? If so, I would probably go talk to a
lawyer, contract in hand, and ask what to do. They probably have no legal
right to ask this, and it sounds like a contractual issue. In essence, they
want their money back, and they may have no right to ask that.

Jan Wright

At 01:26 PM 6/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi to all,
>I have been a lurker on this list for a couple of years now and, although I
>don't often join in discussions, I very much enjoy this list and have
>learned alot from all of you.
>
>I have been an indexer for more than 7 years now and have always had good
>comments on my indexes and much repeat business from my customers. I have
>just begun working for a new customer, for whom I have now completed 2
>indexes. I was paid very promptly, but then found out 2 months after doing
>the 1st index that the author had not been pleased with the index I
>submitted and refused to use it (I thought the index was very good and so
>did the publisher) without apparently specifying what problems he had with
>the index. The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for the
>index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving them
>much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby paying
>them back for paying me.
>
>I am not sure how to handle this. I was not given an opportunity to resubmit
>the index to the author's specifications, although the publisher has let me
>know they knew there was a problem much earlier, before publication of the
>book.
>
>Has this happened to anyone else? How should I handle this?
>Thanks very much.
>Barb


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wright Information Indexing Services
http://www.wrightinformation.com
Jancw@wrightinformation.com
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:17:08 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         ROBJRICH@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: Looking for Advice

All -

Barb Ferretti wrote:

>I have been an indexer for more than 7 years now and have always had good
>comments on my indexes and much repeat business from my customers. I have
>just begun working for a new customer, for whom I have now completed 2
>indexes. I was paid very promptly, but then found out 2 months after doing
>the 1st index that the author had not been pleased with the index I
>submitted and refused to use it (I thought the index was very good and so
>did the publisher) without apparently specifying what problems he had with
>the index. The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for the
>index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving them
>much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby paying
>them back for paying me.<

I believe that Barb has touched on one of the most destructive and
disheartening aspects of freelance indexing.  The ramifications are so
complex, touching on matters of law, conscience, professionalism and
integrity, that I cannot begin to address them all here, nor am I qualified
to proffer legal advice.   I have no simple solution to this most vexing
problem, and only offer some thoughts that might be useful in stimulating
more informed discussion.

I have no magical way to assuage Barb's grief, other than to tell her that
this sort of author dissatisfaction has happened to many (perhaps all) of us
at one time or another, although usually without the withholding of fee.  Two
of the most frustrating aspects of freelance indexing are the difficulty in
even knowing if the author is pleased or dissatisfied, and the  limited
(almost nonexistent) opportunity for redress.

Let me begin by discussing some of the possible contractual ramifications:

The relationship between freelance indexers and their clients has been,
largely, been one of mutual trust and good faith. Although I customarily
follow verbal agreements with a new client with a confirming e-mail or more
formal letter, this is not my practice with established clients when their
requirements are well known.  Although it has happened that have I found out,
long after the fact, that an author was unhappy with an index, payment never
was questioned or withheld.

It is my sense that unless specified otherwise (presumably in writing) the
indexer's client is the editor, not the (more remote) author.  I believe
that, like most commercial transactions, is it presumed that the product or
service shall be satisfactory.  But the question of who will be the judge of
that is presumed to be the person concluding the contract, unless specified
otherwise.

In the circumstance that Barb describes, the client has taken the position
that he/she (the client) acts only as middleman or broker, and that the index
is accepted only conditionally, dependent upon final acceptance by the
author.  That is neither an illegal nor an unethical position IF it is stated
clearly in the agreement to hire.  But it might be unenforceable (and
illegal) if it is unspecified and is contrary to customary business practice
in the common client-indexer relationship.

Now third-party approval is not unusual in some professions.  Indeed, often
it is mandatory (in city building-code approval of an architect's plans, for
example, or FAA certification of a new aircraft design).  But it is not so
common in indexing.

Muddying the waters even further, one must observe that indexing threads a
very indistinct line between art and function.  This is something that we can
discuss on Index-L with wisdom or with rancor.  But when an indexer is caught
between the rock and the hard place, and payment is withheld, these academic
discussions lose relevance.

The issue is very real.  The intractable problem here is how to measure
success.  There are many ways to write an index for a given text.  Let's
assume that all of them are "acceptable".  That is, in our collective
professional judgment, all of them are "good" indexes.  Certification will
not help here, so please don't raise that straw-man.

But indexes are hybrids - - part function and part art.  Now, suppose that
Barb's author simply says "I don't care!  I just don't like this index!"  Now
what can the freelancer do?  Submit it to mediation by a jury of her peers?
The issue here is not whether this is a "perfect" index (whatever that
means).  The issue is that an experienced professional presents this as a
competent piece of work, and the author says "No" but presumably cannot
demonstrate how the index fails reasonably and adequately to guide the reader
through the text.

Equally unclear is the nature of the procedure (indeed, even the opportunity)
for remedy in the event that either party is dissatisfied with some aspect of
the transaction.  I personally take Barb's story as a cautionary tale for my
future dealings with clients...

Now, Barb's client evidently made no effort (or at least no successful
effort) to bring the author's objections to the indexer's attention.  I
assume that Barb is cooperative, and would make every reasonable effort to
modify the index to the author's satisfaction if given the opportunity.  But
the client simply opted out, and said to Barb that they wash their hands of
the whole thing and that she must return the fee.

It is not clear how the book finally was indexed.  but the important question
here is if the client (the publisher) has the legal right to refuse to pay
the fee simply because the author has a snit and holds his breath until he
turns blue.  I don't think so, because the contract was between Barb and her
publisher, and contingency was neither specified (and this is the sticking
point) nor implied.

This is where the blurring between art and function can hurt us.  Presumably
the client must have some reasonable grounds for rejecting the index and
refusing to pay.  This is not the same as a consumer buying new living-room
furniture and having three days to cancel the order.  If the author could
demonstrate that the index does not satisfactorily perform the function for
which it is intended, then one easily could agree that the fee is unearned
and either the index should be fixed or the fee returned.  But if the
objection is on subjective, intestinal grounds ("I don't know why - - It
bothers me! I just don't like it!") then the author has no redress and his
claim would be denied.

OK.  All of this is just words.  What can Barb do?  Here is where I earnestly
ask Index-L to respond with - - if not the collective wisdom - - if least
with the collective angst.

My unofficial and entirely personal response (this is NOT legal advice!) is
that if this publisher will do this to her, she really doesn't need them as a
client.  So I might tell the client that she has a binding contractual
agreement with them that they must honor, and that they cannot simply walk
away because a third party (the author) refuses to pay (or small-claims court
looms on the horizon)!

Remember, the indexing fee in common U.S. practice is paid by the author out
of royalties, and the publisher simply can deduct the fee from the royalties
and let the author take THEM to court!   It is the publisher's responsibility
to inform the author that he/she should afford the indexer a reasonable
opportunity to resolve the difficulty, but that regardless of whether or not
this happens, payment must be made.

Ah, well.  This is a grave problem for freelancers, and brings home how
little leverage we have when dealing with intractable authors and with
publishers who would rather run than honor their commitments.

Barb, our heartfelt sympathies!  Most of us have been there, in one way or
another, and it always hurts!    Let's hear it from Index-L!

Best wishes.

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:39:34 -0300
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Noeline Bridge <nbridge@NB.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

I apologize, Barb, for misreading part of your posting and assuming that you
are a beginning indexer. However, any references to this aside, I think my
comments are relevant. In fact, the more I think of what's being asked of
you, the more heated I feel (and it's a hot day here in Moncton).

Someone else has alluded to this, but is there a possibility that this
unorthodox and unfair request is coming from some individual in the company
and is not an expression of their normal company practice? That is, has it
come from some sidekick who may be wanting to protect his or her skin, or
from the big cheese?

Noeline Bridge
BRIDGEWORK
nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca
295 Highfield Street
Moncton, NB E1C 5R4
Canada
phone 506-870-1113
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:55:26 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Lapointe <barbaral@TAMPABAY.RR.COM>

I am so sorry to spam you with this email but can someone tell me how to
unsubscribe to the list?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:06:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Karen Lane <klane@KLANE.COM>
Subject:      Leaving INDEX-L
In-Reply-To:  <199906140058.UAA23761@ddi.digital.net>

At 08:55 PM 6/13/99 -0400, Barbara Lapointe wrote:
>I am so sorry to spam you with this email but can someone tell me how to
>unsubscribe to the list?

Send a message to

LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU

with the following in the message part:

SIGNOFF INDEX-L

[Upper- or lowercase doesn't matter.]

Karen Lane
klane@klane.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:06:10 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

I had a not totally dissimilar situation last year. I was hired by a
publisher to do an index. I finished the index and sent both the index and an
invoice to the publisher, and the publisher was indicated as the billed party
on the invoice. Apparently the publisher passed the invoice on to the author
(who, coincidentally, happened to be an editor for the publisher as well).
The author sent me a letter offering to pay me 2/3 of the bill and then we
could call it even, because he hadn't contracted to hire me, the publisher
had. I contacted the publisher and told them that this was unacceptable. I
had contracted to do an index at a certain rate, I had provided the index,
and I was not going to go into after-the-fact negotiations. I received all my
money, but I did not receive many more jobs from that publisher. Now, I am
not terribly upset that I didn't, although I liked their books and I like
finding new clients. These people did not have it together, and I wonder how
many more problems would occur down the road. That and the fact that they
obviously wanted me to make up for their mistake was a red flag for me. I've
had a couple of times where people want to blame the freelancer because it's
easier than taking responsibility in-house. I am not comfortable accepting
the blame to keep a client.
Now, along those lines, I did have a time where a book was having lots of
problems. I was the editor and production coordinator (freelance). Most of
the problems were not my fault. (In fact, I commented at one point to the
in-house editor that I had never had a book with this many problems. She
replied, "That's funny, all our books are like this." Internally I suggested
she get a clue, then.) BUT, at the end, my dog chewed several pages of
camera-ready copy! I waived the last $300 of my bill because of the
inconvenience this would cause. They still never hired me again. And to be
very honest, I did a good job, a very good job on that book.
So, even though you take a cut, you may not get anymore jobs from them
anyway. It all depends.
Best of luck,
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:05:09 -0400
Reply-To:     "Seth A. Maislin" <smaislin@world.std.com>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Seth A. Maislin" <smaislin@WORLD.STD.COM>
Organization: Focus Information Services
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Don't accept it.

The publisher -- your client -- liked your work. And they paid you
for it. If they didn't, you would implement some sort of collection
process.

The author -- the publisher's client -- didn't like the
publisher-supplied product. The author refused to pay. The publisher
is enabled to implement a collection process. That they would go to
*you* for money isn't sensible, let alone professional. In fact,
would suspect your publisher would agree with this assessment, if
you explain it this way. I mean, the author is trying to get away
with the oldest trick in the book: claiming the work is
unacceptable, and then refusing to pay.

Okay, that's the harsh answer. The less harsh answer is that you
would love to get the author's comments. This is a learning
opportunity for you, and you are also interested in providing a good
service to *all* your clients. So if the author can communicate to
you how the index fails (if it does), you can use that knowledge to
further improve the quality of your work. In addition, had the
publisher contacted you earlier with the author's feedback, you
would have jumped at the chance to make last-minute edits;
unfortunately, it's too late to do anything for this book.
Nevertheless, the issue is not about money. It's about quality, and
about communication. And you and your client can take this
opportunity to improve both, for the future of your relationship.

- Seth

Seth Maislin
Focus Information Services
smaislin@world.std.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Barb Ferretti
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 1:26 PM
Subject: looking for advice


Hi to all,
I have been a lurker on this list for a couple of years now and,
although I
don't often join in discussions, I very much enjoy this list and
have
learned alot from all of you.

I have been an indexer for more than 7 years now and have always had
good
comments on my indexes and much repeat business from my customers. I
have
just begun working for a new customer, for whom I have now completed
2
indexes. I was paid very promptly, but then found out 2 months after
doing
the 1st index that the author had not been pleased with the index I
submitted and refused to use it (I thought the index was very good
and so
did the publisher) without apparently specifying what problems he
had with
the index. The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for
the
index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving
them
much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby
paying
them back for paying me.

I am not sure how to handle this. I was not given an opportunity to
resubmit
the index to the author's specifications, although the publisher has
let me
know they knew there was a problem much earlier, before publication
of the
book.

Has this happened to anyone else? How should I handle this?
Thanks very much.
Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:10:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barb Ferretti <barbf@BCPL.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice
In-Reply-To:  <199906132124.RAA05561@mail.bcpl.net>

Hi all,
I want to thank everyone for responding so quickly to my posting.  After
several days of mulling this problem over, I had reached a pretty low point
emotionally and started looking over all my past indexes to see how
deficient they were also! I am usually very confident, but like most of you
indicate, have had only a few comments directly regarding the indexes I
submit (always positive), but I do have a lot of repeat business, so I
assume my work has always been at the very least satisfactory (one of the
publishers I worked for has even said their editors argued over who was
going to use me next -- very nice to hear! This publisher was bought by
another company last year and closed the office I dealt with, so now I
having to build a relationship with the new company<groan>). Mostly though,
there is no feedback whatsoever for work submitted, and only when the
customer calls again do you feel they must have been satisfied or they
wouldn't want you again.

This company is a VERY small publisher/typsetter who I believe uses only
local freelancers. I had nothing in writing from them at all and do not
usually work on a contract basis, for the most part verbal--although that
practice will change for me now. They also pay a little below my usual
rates, which I accepted because they work with a different subject matter
than the usual medical texts I work on and I thought it might be an
interesting change every now and then. I do not really NEED this work and I
am thinking that, as mentioned by several of you, this kind of problem may
be the tip of the iceberg with this company. I think they are so small, that
wherever they can pay less is a direct benefit to them. I had not considered
the possibility that they did not include the index in preparing the cost
for the author, but it is something to consider. As some of your comments
have pointed out, it now seems absurd to me that they would not try to
collect from the author or have mediated this in some way before publication
if they were not in some way at fault themselves for not being paid by the
author. The publisher said they published the book without an index at all,
which I also find incomprehensible because of the type of book it was (very
much needing an index).

I find that I am really wrestling with this problem--if I don't pay them
back, am I intractable, unreasonable, unprofessional? If I do pay them back,
am I unconfident and setting a precedent for being paid a lower rate (or not
being paid) forever? I would have done anything to make the index what the
author wanted had I been given the chance. I very much take pride in being
accommodating in my business dealings, part of what being a freelancer
entails and part of just plain professionalism, but I do not want to "roll
over" for any client.

I think that I am going to act on my feelings (and the consensus of this
group<g>) and refuse, in writing, to accept further work at a reduced rate
in order to pay them back and probably will refuse, very nicely, further
work from this company if it is ever offered again ("I'm very sorry, I'm too
busy right now to take that project...")

Thank you all so much for your suggestions, advice, and support. It makes me
realize all the more how much I enjoy this group. I will let you know how it
ends up.
Take care.
Barb
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:40:32 -0700
Reply-To:     nkoenig <nkoenig@gateway.net>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         nkoenig <nkoenig@GATEWAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Barb, take the money and run.

If you have been indexing for 7 years it is
improbable that anything was wrong with your
index.  I suspect that the author decided not
to pay for an index (needed a new set of golf
clubs maybe?) and stuck it to the publisher.
Then the publisher tried to stick it to you.  I
wouldn't trust either as far as I could throw them.

The recent nonpayment stories have made
me very leerly of new clients. Now I'm afraid
one these turkeys will call me tomorrow.

Don't tell me all I have to fear is
fear itself.  What about the fear of fear itself?
I have to fear that too.  And the fear of the
fear of fear itself?   Yep.......  Gad, I'm
going to be busy tomorrow.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:14:07 PDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= <jingting@MAGMA.CA>
Subject:      Re: scheduling projects
In-Reply-To:  <199904251542.LAA14694@mag1.magmacom.com>

There is a book by JoAnn Hackos on "Managing your documentation projects"=
 which others rave about.

Yves
jingting@magma.ca

----------
>
> Hello!
>
> Does anybody have any advice or experiences to share on scheduling
> freelance projects? That is, how do you make sure you have enough
> projects to keep busy (and financially sound) without running into
> overlaps and conflicts?
>
> Maybe some projects stick to their time forecasts better than others,
> but of the last two contracts I have had, one was supposed to last six
> weeks (and ended up going on and off for 11 months!), and the other was
> supposed to be 2-3 weeks and went a total of 37 hours. I'm always on =
the
> lookout for new contracts, but I'm not always sure how to do that when
> existing clients are taking up a large (and often unpredictable) amount
> of my time. What do you do?
>
> Thanks so much!
>
> :) christy
> christyworks@mindspring.com
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:12:35 PDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= <jingting@MAGMA.CA>
Subject:      Re: seeking abstracting course
In-Reply-To:  <199905202336.TAA24778@mag1.magmacom.com>

<no kidding> Have you tried
Mortimer Adler's "How to Read a Book" (1940)
If you need examples, glance at his "Syntopicon"
(The first volumes of Encyclopaedia Brit. "Great Books".

HTH,

Yves
jingting@magma.ca

----------
>
> Can anyone recommend a good correspondence or online
> course in abstracting, please?
>
> =3D=3D=3D
> RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp)
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:00:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" <dwindex@LOUISA.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Instead of looking for advice, I'd be looking for a new publisher!

I agree with what I've read; don't let the publisher make you pay for their
mistake. I don't have much to add in that regard.

Whenever I have had the fear that I was going to lose a client, I'd
immediately send out a batch of resumes.  It made me feel I was taking
control of my life even if nothing came of it! The result is that I have
many clients right now, and am trying to juggle them all, but don't feel
afraid that if anyone drops me for some reason I'll be out of work.

Paula Durbin-Westby
dwindex@louisa.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:15:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" <dwindex@LOUISA.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Here's something that happened to me a few weeks ago.  I did an indexing
project for a long book; the editor wanted names, places, and other proper
nouns indexed, no subjects.  I received a copy of the style sheet and the
admonition "index according to common sense."  The publisher has, in the
past, said they prefer "lean indexes."  So, indexing according to common
sense, and keeping in mind the "lean index" concept, I came up with an
index and submitted it.  A week late I was called and told the index was
"incomplete."  The project editor wanted EVERY SINGLE MENTION of a name,
even if it was one of 40 names in a string preceded by "such as" or
"including."

At first I thought, "Oh this is all my fault, I should have asked them if
they wanted every single mention of any proper noun."  Then I came to my
senses.  I did do some more work on the project, six hours worth.  I then
calculated how long it would be for me to continue going through the entire
book to get every single name in all the strings of mentions, came up with
a dollar-per-hour figure, and sent my contact (who was not the project
editor) an email telling her how much the project would cost.  After the
additional money had been authorized I would continue reworking the
project. I was polite but firm.

It was fairly clear that this fiasco was an in-house disagreement, but I
did my best to stay out of the center.

Needless to say, they began to think the index was fine as it was, but did
authorize a bit more money to cover my six additional hours of work.

I thought I'd probably never hear from them again, but as I've done so many
indexes they DO like, I was assured by my contact person that I'd be
hearing from her soon.  I was going to immediately send out two or three
resumes to make myself feel better about my impending "termination," but
two publishers I rarely do work for called me that day, sparing me the
necessity of having to get together a resume packet.

To rephrase a line form the X-Files, "The books are out there!"

Paula C. Durbin-Westby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:32:34 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Judith W. Kip" <JudithKip@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Query about correspondence

I'm in need of the collective wisdom. =


I am currently indexing a long book which the authors refer to as a
"collective biography." The book is very detailed and was written based o=
n
information gleaned from letters between members of the Bloomsbury Group.=
 =

There are many quotes, both long and short,  from these letters.

So here's my question.  As an example:  there is  a discussion in the boo=
k
about a topic and  a letter is quoted from  Vanessa Bell to Roger Fry =

expressing an opinion on the subject.  Of course I will create an entries=

for Vanessa Bell and the subject.  But there is absolutely no information=

about Roger Fry expect that he was the addressee of said letter.  Do I
index Roger Fry?  With what subentry -- letters to, from Vanessa Bell?  =


What's the collective take on indexing recipients of letters?  I can't
(yet) see its value, even to scholars, if no other information is given o=
n
this page for Roger Fry.   But what do you scholarly people usually do
about this?

I'm doing the index for a publisher, but the author has been given my
e-mail and is in frequent touch with me, so the pressure is on.  Before I=

query her I want to get indexers' feedback so I can support my position.

Thanks in advance,


Judy



************************************************

Judy Kip
Indexing
Owego, NY
JudithKip@Compuserve.com

************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:39:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Sonsie Conroy <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Query about correspondence

I would enter ALL the names (even names of otherwise-unidentified recipients
of letters), because sure as can be, 100 pages later, Roger Fry will become
a Major Player in the book, and you'll have to scramble to find the earlier
references you didn't index. <G>

Seriously, I've learned through experience that it is easier to prune out
the one-entry people with no useful info about them, than to try and
recapture the entries at the end of the work. Use a symbol or special string
of letters to identify people like this, which you can later search on and
remove.

Hope this helps...

        Sonsie
        sconroy@slonet.org
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:44:55 +0000
Reply-To:     connolly@neca.com
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM>
Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote:
>

> Whenever I have had the fear that I was going to lose a client, I'd
> immediately send out a batch of resumes.  It made me feel I was taking
> control of my life even if nothing came of it! The result is that I have
> many clients right now, and am trying to juggle them all, but don't feel
> afraid that if anyone drops me for some reason I'll be out of work.

This has been a fascinating thread, and I hope it works out well. I have a
comment and a question (tangentially related).

Comment:

I recently did an index for a client (my first for them). I like to do things
"by the book" so I told the editor that I would send her a letter of
agreement. She said fine but called later to say that it was company policy
only to use their own contracts. She said she would send it to me. As it
turned out, the index was done before the contract arrived. I had rec'd
positive feedback from the editor, but when I invoiced, she told me that I
would still need to have the signed contract on file in order for it to be
processed. So I looked over the contract and noted that there was language in
it such that I could be not paid should they decide not to use the index (for
any reason at all). This gave me a chill. Now, I had already done the index
and was told that it was fine, so I wasn't really concerned about not getting
paid for this index. I signed it this time, but will cross it out and initial
the change next time. If it means I lose the the work, so be it. Perhaps your
publisher has this clause in their standard contracts as well (which they
didn't have you sign), and so feel that they have the "right" to ask for their
money back.

Question:

Paula says she has many clients right now and is juggling them precariously.
This makes me wonder how freelancers look at the work they get. When do you
consider that you "have a client?" With the first index? The second index?
Consecutive years?

I've gotten repeat business so far from 2 companies (it's only been 5 months
since my first index). The rest have been one-time only (so far).

If you have several clients (3?, 5?, 10?), do you get all of your work from
them? Do you still get a lot of one-shot jobs from other places? Just
 wondering./Dan

--
=============================
Daniel A. Connolly
mailto:connolly@neca.com
Word For Word Indexing Services
http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com
Woodstock, CT, USA
=============================
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:51:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         S Sweeney <ssweeney@RURALTEL.NET>
Subject:      Re: Query about correspondence

Roger Fry was an important member of the Bloomsbury Group--artist, art critic,
initimate friend of Vanessa Bell. Virginia Woolf wrote his biography. All
references to Fry would certainly be indexed. You'll see him again!

Sharon Sweeney
ssweeney@ruraltel.net

Judith W. Kip wrote:

> I'm in need of the collective wisdom. =
>
> I am currently indexing a long book which the authors refer to as a
> "collective biography." The book is very detailed and was written based o=
> n
> information gleaned from letters between members of the Bloomsbury Group.=
>  =
>
> There are many quotes, both long and short,  from these letters.
>
> So here's my question.  As an example:  there is  a discussion in the boo=
> k
> about a topic and  a letter is quoted from  Vanessa Bell to Roger Fry =
>
> expressing an opinion on the subject.  Of course I will create an entries=
>
> for Vanessa Bell and the subject.  But there is absolutely no information=
>
> about Roger Fry expect that he was the addressee of said letter.  Do I
> index Roger Fry?  With what subentry -- letters to, from Vanessa Bell?  =
>
> What's the collective take on indexing recipients of letters?  I can't
> (yet) see its value, even to scholars, if no other information is given o=
> n
> this page for Roger Fry.   But what do you scholarly people usually do
> about this?
>
> I'm doing the index for a publisher, but the author has been given my
> e-mail and is in frequent touch with me, so the pressure is on.  Before I=
>
> query her I want to get indexers' feedback so I can support my position.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Judy
>
> ************************************************
>
> Judy Kip
> Indexing
> Owego, NY
> JudithKip@Compuserve.com
>
> ************************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:15:15 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "M. Jessie Barczak" <jbarczak@CQ.COM>
Subject:      Re: Query about correspondence

Any relation to Stephen Fry?

At 09:51 AM 6/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Roger Fry was an important member of the Bloomsbury Group--artist, art
critic,
>initimate friend of Vanessa Bell. Virginia Woolf wrote his biography. All
>references to Fry would certainly be indexed. You'll see him again!
>
>Sharon Sweeney
>ssweeney@ruraltel.net
>
>Judith W. Kip wrote:
>
>> I'm in need of the collective wisdom. =
>>
>> I am currently indexing a long book which the authors refer to as a
>> "collective biography." The book is very detailed and was written based o=
>> n
>> information gleaned from letters between members of the Bloomsbury Group.=
>>  =
>>
>> There are many quotes, both long and short,  from these letters.
>>
>> So here's my question.  As an example:  there is  a discussion in the boo=
>> k
>> about a topic and  a letter is quoted from  Vanessa Bell to Roger Fry =
>>
>> expressing an opinion on the subject.  Of course I will create an entries=
>>
>> for Vanessa Bell and the subject.  But there is absolutely no information=
>>
>> about Roger Fry expect that he was the addressee of said letter.  Do I
>> index Roger Fry?  With what subentry -- letters to, from Vanessa Bell?  =
>>
>> What's the collective take on indexing recipients of letters?  I can't
>> (yet) see its value, even to scholars, if no other information is given o=
>> n
>> this page for Roger Fry.   But what do you scholarly people usually do
>> about this?
>>
>> I'm doing the index for a publisher, but the author has been given my
>> e-mail and is in frequent touch with me, so the pressure is on.  Before I=
>>
>> query her I want to get indexers' feedback so I can support my position.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Judy
>>
>> ************************************************
>>
>> Judy Kip
>> Indexing
>> Owego, NY
>> JudithKip@Compuserve.com
>>
>> ************************************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:13:22 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject:      when is a client a client?

Dan,

You ask an excellent question.  To me, I call somebody "my client" when I
have the sense that they will call me if and when they need an index -- that
I am one of the people they like to deal with as an indexer.  It takes at
least 2 indexes, maybe 3 or 4.  It is the number of times they come back to
me PLUS the quality of the relationship that I sense in my contact with the
client.  After a while, you'll be able to tell that they're glad they've
found you and will turn to you whenever they can.

Similarly, I know I've "lost a client" when somebody who has used me
repeatedly, every few weeks/months, hasn't called me with a new project in 6
or so months.  At that point you can tell that they're obviously using
somebody else on a regular basis.

Hope this helps.

Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:16:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM
Subject:      MEETING NOTICE: Twin Cities Chapter

Please join us for an informal meeting in picnic format, including
families, on Saturday, July 17. We are gathering around 11:00-11:30 AM at
Newell Park in Saint Paul. Newell Park is at 900 North Fairview Avenue,
four blocks west of Snelling on Pierce Butler Route. (For regular chapter
meeting attendees, it is about 2.5 miles north, on Fairview, of our usual
meeting place at the Merriam Park Library.)

The chapter treasury will provide paper plates, napkins, cups, and ice
water to drink. Plan to bring your own picnic food, utensils, other
beverages, and something (salad, dessert, or ?) to share.

There is no specific business for this meeting, but those who attend the
national conference will be able to report informally on what they learned.
We plan on finishing up by 1:30 or 2:00.

We have the picnic shelter reserved, so we will meet rain or shine. There
are handicapped-accessible restrooms and a play area nearby. For more
information about Newell Park you can call Saint Paul Parks and Recreation
at (651) 266-6400.

Remove NOSPAM to email me directly.

Regards,
Larry Harrison, Secretary/Treasurer
Twin Cities Chapter
American Society of Indexers



BRIEF MAP

USE A MONOSPACED FONT FOR READABILITY OF THE MAP.


P = PARKING
+ = WALKWAY TO SHELTER
S = SHELTER


 -------------------------------------------------------------------


           PIERCE BUTLER ROUTE


 -------------          --------------------------------------------
              |         |
              |         |    -------------            -----------
              |         |    |           |            |         |
              |   F      ----    P       -------------     P    |
              |   A                                             |
              |   I      ----            -------------          |
              |   R     |    |           |            |         |
              |   V     |    |           |            |         |
              |   I     |    -------------            -----------
              |   E     |                               +
              |   W     |                               +
              |         |                               +
              |         |                               +
              |   A     |                               +
              |   V     |                               +
--------------    E     |                               +        /\
                  N     |                               +       /  \
 TAYLOR STREET    U     |                               +         |
                  E     |                           ---------     |
                        |                           |        |    |
--------------          |                           |   S    |    |
              |         |                           |        |    | N
              |         |                           |        |    |
              |         |                           ---------     |
              |         |
              |         |
              |         |
              |         |
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:28:56 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Carol Kennedy <colfaxgp@MINN.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Connolly <connolly@neca.com>
>This makes me wonder how freelancers look at the work they get. When do you
>consider that you "have a client?"

Though most of my freelancing is in editing, with indexing trailing far
behind, I think this question applies to both.

My sad answer, for myself only: I NEVER consider that I "have a client."
Very early on in my freelancing, I did numerous books for a small publisher
(owner, one office person). No one on the publisher's "staff" had any
editing expertise, and mine were the only editing eyes that saw the
manuscripts. The publisher was always very happy with my work, as were the
authors--at least those whose opinions I ever heard.

Then the publisher took a partner. That person also had no editing
experience. The first time I worked on a book that the partner acquired, I
did everything the way I always had, including informing the partner of
problems with the book. In this case, the problems were major, including
some obvious plagiarism (which I documented). The partner at every step told
me to just go ahead, fix this, do that, continue. I worked some with the
author, but the author was unwilling to address some of the problems--which
I also told the partner.

In the end, the company did not publish the book. They did pay me for my
editing, but I never got another job from them. I'm 100% certain that the
partner blamed everything on me; the original owner probably didn't believe
it, given our history, but could more easily find another freelancer than
dissolve a partnership.

So throughout the rest of my career, I have never considered that I "have" a
client. That has turned out to be a realistic viewpoint. I lost one client
when the company was bought out; I lost another when a new managing editor
shifted work to freelancers the editor already knew; I lost another when I
raised my rates (even though I had regularly completed their projects in
fewer than the budgeted hours!). So it goes.

Carol Kennedy
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:39:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Judith W. Kip" <JudithKip@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Correspondence query clarification

It's not that I don't know who Roger Fry is (was); it's that I don't know=

if I should index a mention of him with NO INFORMATION.

Is that fact that someone * wrote him a letter* of value to people doing
scholarly research and therefore worthy of a entry?

Judy Kip
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:03:56 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Sonsie Conroy <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

At 10:44 AM 6/14/1999 +0000, Dan Connolly wrote:

>So I looked over the contract and noted that there was language in
>it such that I could be not paid should they decide not to use the index (for
>any reason at all). This gave me a chill. Now, I had already done the index
>and was told that it was fine, so I wasn't really concerned about not getting
>paid for this index. I signed it this time, but will cross it out and initial
>the change next time. If it means I lose the the work, so be it.

Good for you! I would never sign a contract that gave the publisher one-way
permission to NOT pay me if they decide (for any reason) not to use my work.
IMO it's reasonable to state that I will not get paid if the index is
unsatisfactory (which still leaves a question of what constitutes a
satisfactory index), but not to say that I won't get paid if they don't use
the index...for any reason or none at all.

>If you have several clients (3?, 5?, 10?), do you get all of your work from
>them? Do you still get a lot of one-shot jobs from other places? Just
> wondering.

I work for a number of publishers and packagers, but have rarely thought of
them as "my" clients. They do lots of books, and have lots of editors who
hire indexers. "My" editors, who are inclined to call me first, frequently
have several books in need of indexing at about the same time. I may be able
to choose among two or three different books, but rarely can I take all of
them on at once. So naturally, "my" editor will need to have several other
favorite indexers that he or she calls when this happens.

I do end up working mainly for the same four or five publishers, but also
take "one-shot" indexes from other companies. Most of the time, I will get
repeat business from these people...and I make it a point to ASK for other
indexes when I am contacted by a new publisher. Occasionally, though, I do
an index (which I'm sure is satisfactory) and I never get another job from
that company. I rarely find out why, and I suppose I would worry about it if
I had a string of "one-index stands," so to speak.

With the vagaries of the publishing world being what they are, I would not
want to rely on "my" clients as a regular source of work. I never know when
a publisher will be bought out, go out of business, merge, or fire "my"
editor. So I welcome the one-shots and work on converting them to True
Believers. <G>

        Sonsie
        sconroy@slonet.org
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:07:14 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Larry Baker <Larry.Baker@GALE.COM>
Subject:      Bonehead publisher

Speaking from a publisher's perspective:
1. No, the indexer shouldn't pay back a publisher if the publisher accepted
the index and paid the indexer.
2. Not including an index in the book because they didn't like it (as
opposed to finding someone else to do it) seems pretty boneheaded to me. So
you're not missing anything by not working with them in the future.
3. Always enter into a working relationship with a publisher by using a
contract. You're out there by yourself... you need the protection. (Heck,
that's why publishers -- or anyone -- enters a contract.)

Larry Baker
The Gale Group
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:11:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Robert A. Saigh" <fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Re: when is a client a client?

To Everyone:

    Never rest on your laurels.  You never ever "have" a client.  Your
business is never assured.  You must always hustle to reach the level
you desire.

    I had a client for three years, made lots of money.  Then, one day,
one of the editors to bring in his cousin to do the indexing and I lost
a major portion of my yearly freelance income.  Luckily, at that time, I
had a full-time job.

    Now, being fully freelance, I never stop looking for new clients or
new angles to retrieve former clients, etc.

    Never rest.  Set a budget which will determine how many jobs a week
you will need to have and strive toward that goal.

        Rob

Razorsharp Communications, Inc.
Robert A. Saigh, President
P.O. Box 3529
Saint Louis, MO  63143-3529

314.726.0288
fugleman@mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:18:32 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Cohen <BECohen653@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: looking for advice

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Return-path: BECohen653@aol.com
From: BECohen653@aol.com
Full-name: BECohen653
Message-ID: <671a1ecf.2496850d@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:17:17 EDT
Subject: Re: looking for advice
To: connolly@neca.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38

Dan,

Any single job constitutes "getting the client" because you never know if you
will or won't get another job from them, ever.

As regards prior comments on this thread about working with authors, I like
to work directly with authors (not all the time, and not all authors, but
probably up to 10 a year), and I have worked with many on repeat projects.
But sometimes these projects are years apart.

OK, the only times I have ever been burned have been by authors (twice in 15
years), so I don't disagree about the risks involved. But for every author
that burns an indexer, there are 10 who give you such great feedback and
really read your indexes and comment on them (which editors rarely have time
to do in such detail or with such passion) that it kinda makes up for the few
problems I've ever encountered. In other words, I'm willing to accept the
risks because the benefits are also very valuable.

It's not that authors are inclined to be cheaper than other clients, because
I think I've personally had more problems with book packagers, yet I know
other indexers who swear by them. It's a question of temperament and taste
about what you want your client base to be. That's why, once you have a
client pool, no one else can really take your business away from you--your
client list should (and will) uniquely reflect your talents, qualifications,
and expectations. That's the good news about feeling successfully
self-employed!

Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN

--part1_671a1ecf.24968558_boundary--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:31:40 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Cohen <BECohen653@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: when is a client a client?

Well, not to nitpick unnecessarily, but. . . of course until someone calls
you, you don't have a project. But if an editor asks you who you've worked
for recently, isn't everyone you've actually worked for in the past a client?
Isn't that "having a client"?? Or is that only "having had a client"?? (As
opposed to "having been had by a client"??)

I guess what I am saying is that you can think if those people as part of
your client pool, especially when you are starting out, because they are on
your client list. Whether or not they ever call you again, as demonstrated by
the other comments, is based on factors impossible to control.

You can have clients and have no work. Or do you only "have clients" when you
are actually working for them? Maybe you only ever have "potential clients"
except for the ones you are currently working for, but that seems like an
extra semantic leap most of us don't make because we know what we mean when
we say we "have clients."

Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:42:14 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Cohen <BECohen653@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Indexer needed (scholarly text)

Indexer needed (scholarly text)

This is a job for an experienced indexer with knowledge of French (quotations
are translated, but the author prefers someone sensitive to the language, or
so I gather from her request), for a book on "time and gender in early modern
France" for a scholarly press. The author can be contacted at:

cyandell@carleton.edu  (Cathy Yandell)

The book is 271 pages, and page proofs are available now. The deadline is
somewhat flexible within the next month. Cathy would like to find someone who
could begin on the project almost immediately.

Please contact the author directly. I have no further information.

Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:45:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "M. Jessie Barczak" <jbarczak@CQ.COM>
Subject:      Re: when is a client a client?

The semantics of this thread may need to be addressed, so I will give it
the ol' college try ...

Having worked in the legal profession for a number of years, when I hear
the word "client" I think of someone who is currently actively paying you
for your efforts.

In the indexing world (into which I have delved less years than in legal) I
prefer the word "customer."  Since our customers are not always current and
more often than not are "in the past" and may sometime be our customers "in
the future" I believe customer may be a good concept to consider.

As always, everyone else's thoughts are welcome ...

MJB
Washington, DC

At 12:31 PM 6/14/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Well, not to nitpick unnecessarily, but. . . of course until someone calls
>you, you don't have a project. But if an editor asks you who you've worked
>for recently, isn't everyone you've actually worked for in the past a client?
>Isn't that "having a client"?? Or is that only "having had a client"?? (As
>opposed to "having been had by a client"??)
>
>I guess what I am saying is that you can think if those people as part of
>your client pool, especially when you are starting out, because they are on
>your client list. Whether or not they ever call you again, as demonstrated by
>the other comments, is based on factors impossible to control.
>
>You can have clients and have no work. Or do you only "have clients" when you
>are actually working for them? Maybe you only ever have "potential clients"
>except for the ones you are currently working for, but that seems like an
>extra semantic leap most of us don't make because we know what we mean when
>we say we "have clients."
>
>Barbara E. Cohen
>Indianapolis, IN
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:55:56 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         PilarW@AOL.COM
Subject:      indexers in fiction: Will Self

Read in GQ magazine, June 1999, p. 135 of "Self-Made World" by Thomas
O'Mallon, which includes a review of Will Self's latest book, Tough, Tough
Toys for Tough, Tough Boys (Grove Press, $23):

"Flytopia" concerns the pact made between a work-at-home indexer and the
insects in his cottage: "Teams of earwigs were at work in the bathroom, and
in the kitchen all signs of his breakfast, right down to the ring of coffee
powder he had left by the jar, were eradicated by the industrious ants."

--Anybody read Self?!

happy indexing,

Pilar

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing
<A HREF="MAILTO:PilarW@aol.com">PilarW@aol.com</A>
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/pilarw/web">Great Indexes for Great Books</A>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:03:34 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Mary Mortensen <MaryMort@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Correspondence query clarification

Judith Kip asks:
> Is that fact that someone * wrote him a letter* of value to people doing
>  scholarly research and therefore worthy of a entry?

IMO, yes.  In these situations I try to role-play the part of someone
interested in the potential heading, in this case "Roger Fry". I think that
if you included a qualification of the entry, such as "Vanessa Bell's letters
to", it would serve the reader who is interested in Fry very well and provide
useful information (as well as indicate that no other information about Fry
is provided).

I hope you don't run into the situation that causes me to agonize over
subheading wording, that is having 9 or 11 or some large number of page
references after this subheading.  If the publisher allows more than one
level of subheading, it's not a problem, but otherwise I have to decide
whether to create more specific subheadings, such as:
  letters from Vanessa Bell on x
  letters from Vanessa Bell on y
  etc.

or just use a string of undifferentiated locators.  As Bella Hass Weinberg
reminded us in her workshop on Friday (an excellent one, BTW), Hazel Bell
advocates the use of  undifferentiated strings for minor mentions of people
in biographies.

I can't remember how you said you would index these letters under the main
entry for Vanessa Bell, but I would use a subheading like "letters to Roger
Fry" there, in addition to the concept ("on painting out of doors" or
whatever applies.)

HTH,
Mary
--
*  Mary Mortensen                         *  marymort@aol.com
*  Lawrence, Kansas, USA
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:40:24 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" <dwindex@LOUISA.NET>
Subject:      Re: when is a client a client?

I have about 6 regular... I'll call them customers, in keeping with the
"when is a client a client" thread.  I call them regulars when they give me
at least 5 books a year.  Most of my "regulars" give me more than that.
Then there are several others who call me once or twice a year.  I juggle
them because I like them all and want to do at least SOME work for each.  I
don't feel comfortable with doing the bulk of my work for just one
publisher.  In order for me to be out of work, they ALL have to "fire" me.
At one point, one publisher was providing me with 1/3 of my work.  Once I
realized this, I took action!  I still do the same amount of work for that
publisher but have taken on additional customers, hence the feeling of
"juggling." ( And also the late-night crunches.)  I may decide to scale
back my operation sometime in the future but I don't mind it right now.  I
fel more secure having too much work than not enough, in having too many
clients rather than two or three.

Paula Durbin-Westby
dwindex@louisa.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:17:51 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "[Sarah Lewis]" <BOOKNDXR@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Query about correspondence

Dear Judith,

I just looked in a book I have called "Bloomsbury/Freud: The Letters of James
and Alix Strachey, 1924-1925.  There are four entries for Roger Fry.  As
Sonsie says, better to be inclusive and then eliminate in the editing stage.
I would avoid asking the author, as she may worry that you aren't familiar
with all the players in the group.

Books on Bloomsbury are a cottage industry...they just keep getting churned
out year after year.

Sarah Lewis
Bookndxr@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:22:39 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject:      company/name indexes

Hi all,
I've got a question about what you include when doing company/name indexes.
It's been a long time since I've been asked to do any (thank God!). Anyway,
my instinct is to add companies and people who have actually been discussed
in some way, not all the companies and people just mentioned in passing.
Opinions please?
Thanks
Leslie
Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:53:05 -0700
Reply-To:     Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Bonny McLaughlin <Bonny.McLaughlin@CGU.EDU>
Organization: cgs.edu
Subject:      Medical indexer needed

Looking for an  indexer in the Bay area with medical indexing
experience. If interested in a job, please contact me.

Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:49:14 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Helen Schinske <HSchinske@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice

Barb Ferretti <barbf@BCPL.NET> wrote:

<<The publisher has said the author refused to pay them for the
index and so they would like me to reimburse them for that by giving them
much reduced rates on the next few indexes I do for them, thereby paying
them back for paying me.>>

Barb, I have no advice (except to repeat "ditch 'em") but I'm curious to know
-- did you hear from the author himself? Or is this story coming only from
the publisher? I would just like to know if there's the least possibility
that somebody might have made the whole thing up (covering up for losing the
index before it went to the typesetter, that sort of thing, then the author
gets his copy and says "damned if I'm going to pay for an index that isn't
there!" <grin>). Of course it is quite bad enough already, even if they are
(technically) telling the truth!

Helen Schinske
HSchinske@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:38:40 +0000
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Sylvia Coates <scoates@SLIP.NET>
Subject:      Re: company/name indexes

Dear Leslie,

As much as I hate it, my experience has been that usually they want all names
and companies, even those mentioned in passing. But, just to be sure, I'd ask
the editor. You can never go wrong by asking! Also, it gives you a chance to
argue in favor of not including the ones just mentioned in passing :-).

Best,
Sylvia Coates

LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote:

> Hi all,
> I've got a question about what you include when doing company/name indexes.
> It's been a long time since I've been asked to do any (thank God!). Anyway,
> my instinct is to add companies and people who have actually been discussed
> in some way, not all the companies and people just mentioned in passing.
> Opinions please?
> Thanks
> Leslie
> Frank Words Indexing and Editing
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:45:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Stone, Jan" <Jan.Stone@WESTGROUP.COM>
Subject:      Re: indexers in fiction: Will Self

Love it!  Now if I could only train the centipedes....

-----Original Message-----
From: PilarW@AOL.COM [mailto:PilarW@AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 1999 11:56 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
Subject: indexers in fiction: Will Self


Read in GQ magazine, June 1999, p. 135 of "Self-Made World" by Thomas
O'Mallon, which includes a review of Will Self's latest book, Tough, Tough
Toys for Tough, Tough Boys (Grove Press, $23):

"Flytopia" concerns the pact made between a work-at-home indexer and the
insects in his cottage: "Teams of earwigs were at work in the bathroom, and
in the kitchen all signs of his breakfast, right down to the ring of coffee
powder he had left by the jar, were eradicated by the industrious ants."

--Anybody read Self?!

happy indexing,

Pilar

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------
L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing
<A HREF="MAILTO:PilarW@aol.com">PilarW@aol.com</A>
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/pilarw/web">Great Indexes for Great
Books</A>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:40:36 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Rachel Rice <racric@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject:      seems to have worked

Back to the real world from Indy. I really enjoyed myself and wish I'd had
more time with some of you. I learned a lot and feel refueled at least a
little. I slept until 8.30 this morning! Only one problem all week: I
couldn't remember where I'd parked my car, and it took over half an hour to
find it, and the van driver was not Nice to me.

As mentioned often, I've got clients that are very late payers. Thanks to
things I learned at Indy, though, I'll be getting me some new clients very
soon. I also learned that it seems to others that I usually post when
things are going wrong in my indexing life, so here's something positive
that might be of use to some of you.

I have one repeat client who likes my work, asks me for nearly impossible
deadlines which I've always met--sometimes without extra fees for a rush
job, but who often takes months to pay. This morning I faxed him this
billing statement (I snipped out the non-relevant parts and made up a name
for the client)


(my letterhead here)
(the original invoice here)

PAST DUE <----centered, in RED, and 18 pt type

Billing history:
Job submitted on time 4/5/99
First invoice faxed 4/6/99
Second invoice faxed 4/20/99
Statement mailed 5/11/99
Third invoice faxed 6/1/99
Telephone conversation 6/2/99 Joe Client, who promised to send payment no
later than 6/7/99
As of 6/14/99 no payment has been received
Second statement faxed 6/14/99
Perhaps payment is already on its way. If not, future jobs might be on a
paid-in-advance basis.

____________

Within 10 minutes of sending the fax, the client was on the phone saying he
had "just mailed" my check "not 15 minutes ago."

This might help some others of you who have late payers. Let me know if it
does.

Rae

 Rachel Rice
 Directions Unlimited Desktop Services
 Indexing, editing, proofreading
 http://homepages.together.net/~racric
 racric ICQ 31476947
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:52:28 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Bill Lee <Blee811@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: seems to have worked

In a message dated 6/14/99 4:47:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
racric@TOGETHER.NET writes:

<< Within 10 minutes of sending the fax, the client was on the phone saying he
 had "just mailed" my check "not 15 minutes ago." >>

Ha!  Don't count your chickens until you have the check in hand.  But I hope
your strategy worked.  I've been considering offering a discount, perhaps up
to 5% for payment within 10 days of invoice.  Has anyone tried this?  Did it
work?  Or did they take 60+ days and still take the discount?

Bill Lee
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:57:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "M. Jessie Barczak" <jbarczak@CQ.COM>
Subject:      CINDEX/HTML

Anyone have experience launching web pages using Cindex HTML markup tags?

My limited experience (plain vanilla application of the component) renders
an index with EXTRA LARGE type.

MJB
Washington, DC
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:56:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Joy Thomas <jthomas3@CSULB.EDU>
Subject:      discount

When I offered a discount if paid within 10 days, it had no impact.
When I tried tacking on a surcharge if not paid within 40 days, they
ignored it.

--
Joy Thomas
Social Sciences Librarian
California State University, Long Beach
562 985-7817
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:18:49 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         JPerlman@AOL.COM
Subject:      Discount/payment time

All,

My experience parallels Joy's.  Discounts do not affect payment time in my
case.  Penalties are ignored.  Faxing or sending a second invoice after 30
days, with a penalty indicated, however, usually pries the check out of the
client FAST, without the penalty, though.

Let's face it -- we have little clout, and therefore have to be assertive
with those Accounting folks sometimes.  Your editorial contact person has
little to do with payment time, unless he/she is the one on whose desk your
invoice got laid to rest for too long.  This rarely happens.  It is in the
Accounts Receivable area where the problem occurs, and it is by design.  They
"age" their invoices, and pay according to a schedule, and according to who
makes most noise if not paid.  Cash flow is everything to those who run their
business that way.

It seems that to them we are "small potatoes" -- they handle payment to so
many people, some of whom are owed large sums of money and some of which are
large corporate entities.  I'm sure that they get attended to first.  I think
the attitude among some (the worst ones) is that we small business people can
wait.

On the positive side, I have many clients who pay within 14 days.  Believe me
-- they know how much I appreciate their good business practices.  The others
go down to the bottom of my list.  Unfortunately, there are some big
publishing houses among the not-so-good-payers.  I don't doubt that I will
get paid.  But I think the practice of putting the checks out for the
mailroom pickup on the 30th day is awful.  I usually receive my check about
40 days after invoice (a few days for mailroom procedures, the rest for US
Postal Service delivery time).  Phooey!

I hope sharing my experience helps some of you.
Janet Perlman
SOUTHWEST INDEXING
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:19:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Cynthia Bertelsen <cbertel@USIT.NET>
Subject:      Culinary dictionaries and glossaries, etc.

Hello everyone,

I found this Web site over the weekend and thought some of you might like to
know about it:

http://homecooking.miningco.com/library/sub/msub2.htm

It is a list of 39 links to different culinary dictionaries and glossaries.


Another interesting site is the LanguaL site, an international framework for
food description, a series of thesauri:

http://food.inf.ethz.ch/langual/main.htm

Cynthia



*****************************************

Cynthia D. Bertelsen
Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services
Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing
cbertel@usit.net
Web page:  http://www.usit.com/cbertel/

"When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no
literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no
social harmony." --Careme
******************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:47:33 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "J. Naomi Linzer" <jnlinzer@SABER.NET>
Subject:      Re: looking for advice
In-Reply-To:  <199906140402.VAA20252@neti.saber.net>

>I find that I am really wrestling with this problem--if I don't pay them
>back, am I intractable, unreasonable, unprofessional?

I don't believe this would be true AT ALL.

If I do pay them back,
>am I unconfident and setting a precedent for being paid a lower rate (or not
>being paid) forever?

I think it is entirely unreasonable to pay them back, and get caught in a
lower pay rate, perhaps, forever.

 I would have done anything to make the index what the
>author wanted had I been given the chance.

But since you were not given a chance, I would suspect some mickey-mouse
situation is going on here.

 I very much take pride in being
>accommodating in my business dealings, part of what being a freelancer
>entails and part of just plain professionalism, but I do not want to "roll
>over" for any client.

I know this is true of you because it sounds like you are a successful
indexer for 7 years and I think it is unprofessional to fall into this
mickey-mouse situation.

These humble opinions come from my gut as I am knew to freelance work, but
was not born yesterday!

Keep us posted and I'm behind your integrity in a world where sometimes it
is hard to find.

Best,

*****************************************************************************J.
J. Naomi Linzer
Indexing Services
POB 1341
Redway, CA  95560
(707) 923-4361
jnlinzer@saber.net
******************************************************************************
http://www.asindexing.org   <-- American Society of Indexers website.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:55:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Jeri Lee <jlee@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking (Web sites)
In-Reply-To:  <199905121716.KAA27132@mx2.eskimo.com>

--=====================_9946573==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Another solution may be on its way.  There is a new USB mike which bypasses
the
sound card and inputs digital information directly into DNS.  I have one on
its
way to me to test and I will be happy to send details of my testing on it if
you want to send me your request off-list.

Jeri Lee

At 01:01 PM 5/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 05/11/1999 9:47:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>LLFEdServ@AOL.COM writes:
>
>>
>>  << Is there a Web site for this product?  A demo?
>>    >>
>>  www.dragonsys.com
>>
>Try also:
>
>http://idt.net/~edrose19/page7.html
>
>http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/default.htm
>
>http://www.synapseadaptive.com/
>
>I don't think there is a demo.
>
>Some built in sound cards do not work well with DNS. One case is the Dell
>Dimension, which is what I have.  :-(   DNS runs very slowly on my system and
>is also apparently less accurate than usual. Check the above web sites for
>info on which computers have this problem (and other tips). The only solution
>is to disable the built in sound card and install another approved card.
>
>Ann Truesdale
>
Voice Transcription
Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business
17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104
Renton, Washington  98058-7013
(425) 254-1352

--=====================_9946573==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>Another solution may be on its way.&nbsp; There is a new USB
mike which bypasses the sound card and inputs digital information
directly into DNS.&nbsp; I have one on its way to me to test and I will
be happy to send details of my testing on it if you want to send me your
request off-list.<br>
<br>
Jeri Lee<br>
<br>
At 01:01 PM 5/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:<br>
&gt;In a message dated 05/11/1999 9:47:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,<br>
&gt;LLFEdServ@AOL.COM writes:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &lt;&lt; Is there a Web site for this product?&nbsp; A
demo?<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.dragonsys.com/" eudora="autourl"><font
 size=3>www.dragonsys.com</a><br>
<font size=3>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;Try also:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<a href="http://idt.net/~edrose19/page7.html" eudora="autourl"><font
 size=3>http://idt.net/~edrose19/page7.html</a><br>
<font size=3>&gt;<br>
&gt;<a href="http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/default.htm"
 eudora="autourl"><font
 size=3>http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/default.htm</a><br>
<font size=3>&gt;<br>
&gt;<a href="http://www.synapseadaptive.com/" eudora="autourl"><font
 size=3>http://www.synapseadaptive.com/</a><br>
<font size=3>&gt;<br>
&gt;I don't think there is a demo.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Some built in sound cards do not work well with DNS. One case is the
Dell<br>
&gt;Dimension, which is what I have.&nbsp; :-(&nbsp;&nbsp; DNS runs very
slowly on my system and<br>
&gt;is also apparently less accurate than usual. Check the above web
sites for<br>
&gt;info on which computers have this problem (and other tips). The only
solution<br>
&gt;is to disable the built in sound card and install another approved
card.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Ann Truesdale<br>
&gt; </font><br>

<font size=3>Voice Transcription<br>
<font size=3><i>Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business<br>
</i><font size=3>17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104<br>
Renton, Washington&nbsp; 98058-7013<br>
(425) 254-1352<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_9946573==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:22:31 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Barbara Cohen <BECohen653@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: returning payments

I admit to being a bit startled by the strength of the discussion that
implies that the indexer should never make a payback. I guess I was leaving
room for the benefit of the doubt, especially since in this situation there
was no governing contract. Who was supposed to approve the index remains
arguable, if the editor made it clear the author was paying for the index
from royalties, even if the editor brokered the deal, at least in my mind.
(Which is why I always insist on a countersigned written
estimate--countersigned by the person who is going to write the check, not
the person who called me or arranged for the index.)

Although I have never given any money back either, I have twice reduced my
fee to compromise with unhappy authors, as much because continuing to fight
about a missing payment was costing me more than just getting back to work on
another project. I felt that compromising about the price was the fastest
solution to never working with (or hearing from) these people again.

I have to relate (although I think I have told this story before in other
contexts) that once, some years ago, an author who had approved "a full index
at any price" (for which statement I had tracked her down by phone in
Switzerland. . . don't even get me started on what THAT cost) when my
original written estimate turned out to be totally inadequate later refused
to pay the full additional fee. (The index turned out to be much more
difficult to prepare than she had led me to believe, so my estimate was way
too low, and I called her after a chapter or so to get approval for either
thinner indexing or a fatter check.) Anyway, we were talking about $200 or so
that she didn't want to pay. We compromised with her paying half of the
overrun amount or half between her figure and mine (I forget the exact
numbers, but I think I lost maybe $100-$200 on the deal).

Her argument wasn't that she didn't like the fuller index, but that if she
had known it would cost so much more, she could have shopped around for a
cheaper indexer. (The risk one runs when writing an estimate is that you may
not interpret the author well about what the job will be; this was the first
time I'd ever had such a situation arise, and I thought I had taken care of
the problem with the phone call to Switzerland.)

Anyway, about a month later, the author called me again to index another
book, reiterating just how much she liked the previous index. I declined and
suggested she shop around with the other indexers she knew that she was sure
could have done the first book cheaper. (I promise, I didn't get snotty on
the phone, but I did think some dark thoughts. . .) Later, in talking with
her editor (for whom I did subsequently work again), the editor said that she
thought the author thought she was giving me an opportunity to recoup my
prior shortfall by offering me the second project. (In other words, the
author saw herself as being generous.) I saw it as an opportunity to get
burned a second time and declined.

Anyway, the point is: sometimes it costs less to settle for less than it does
to keep arguing about it. Also, sometimes the author has a legitimate
complaint about the index or the estimate, and one should remain open to at
least discussing what went wrong. It is hard to fathom doing a good job and
being "punished" (from our perspective), but authors are capable of some
twisted logic and it behooves the indexer to have a contract to cover
contingencies!

As other have said, in any event it doesn't pay to work for someone again if
you've  had that much hassle about money. Life's too short. And there is
other work out there.

Barbara E. Cohen
Indianapolis, IN
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:39:18 EDT
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         LLFEdServ@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: company/name indexes

In a message dated 6/14/99 12:39:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
scoates@SLIP.NET writes:

<<
 As much as I hate it, my experience has been that usually they want all names
 and companies, even those mentioned in passing. But, just to be sure, I'd ask
 the editor. You can never go wrong by asking! Also, it gives you a chance to
 argue in favor of not including the ones just mentioned in passing :-).
  >>

This is what I was afraid of, which is why I am polling everyone here. I was
hoping for a consensus on why it is ridiculous to include ALL names before I
call the editor.
Anyone else want to chime in here?
Thanks,
Leslie
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:01:45 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Christine Michaud <cmichaud@EROLS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Correspondence query clarification
In-Reply-To:  <199906141541.LAA13417@mx01.erols.com>

At 11:39 AM 6/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>It's not that I don't know who Roger Fry is (was); it's that I don't know=
>
>if I should index a mention of him with NO INFORMATION.
>
>Is that fact that someone * wrote him a letter* of value to people doing
>scholarly research and therefore worthy of a entry?
>
>Judy Kip

I would include it, in a subentry "letters from xyz". Knowing that he
received a letter is information that a scholar might find useful. It gives
info on whom he was corresponding with, what ideas he may have been exposed
to and when, gives a context to any letters he wrote _to_ her...

Just my opinion,

Christine Michaud
Michaud Editorial Services
cmichaud@erols.com


>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:38:18 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         "Halter, Meg" <HalterMC@NAVAIR.NAVY.MIL>
Subject:      Re: unreadable diskette-help!

Hi Paula --

I'll de-lurk for a moment to mention a helpful utility for translating
between applications and between Macs and PCs. It's Conversions Plus, by
DataViz. The list price is $100 and the info on it is at
http://www.dataviz.com/products/CPW/CPW_Home.html . While the publisher may
give you another disk in a format you can read, it's always good to just be
able to fire this up and read (or write!) data from just about any
application, or from a Mac floppy without delays.

-- Meg Halter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paula C. Durbin-Westby [SMTP:dwindex@LOUISA.NET]
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 4:31 AM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
> Subject:      unreadable diskette-help!
>
> I was asked by a publisher to do a subject-only index. When I received the
> page proofs, a diskette was included with the instructions "Please combine
> the two indexes on this disk with the one you are making."  The disk is
> unreadable by my computer.  The disk is labeled "MAC. Word 5.1."  I have a
> PC with MS Word.  Any suggestions?
>
> I really don't want to have to go out and buy computer software I normally
> don't need for a surprise addition to a single project.
>
> Paula Durbin-Westby
> dwindex@louisa.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:15:14 -0400
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Richard Shrout <rshrout@EROLS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking (Web sites)

Jeri,

Please let us know on list about this development.  I had not proceeded
to install Dragon because my sound card was not on their list but my
computer does have a USB port.

A lot of interest in speech recognition was evident by the good
attendance at the session in Indy which was well presented.
Unfortunately, there wasn't enough time for the speaker to finish so
there will hopefully be a longer session next year.  In short, there is
a lot of interest out there and your information is much more valuable
to me than a lot of the chaff I had to sort through this week.  No
particular offense to all of the grammarians out there but gee whiz that
was a lot of messages to wade through.

Richard Shrout

Jeri Lee wrote:
>
> --=====================_9946573==_.ALT
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Another solution may be on its way.  There is a new USB mike which bypasses
> the
> sound card and inputs digital information directly into DNS.  I have one on
> its
> way to me to test and I will be happy to send details of my testing on it if
> you want to send me your request off-list.
>
> Jeri Lee
>
> At 01:01 PM 5/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 05/11/1999 9:47:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >LLFEdServ@AOL.COM writes:
> >
> >>
> >>  << Is there a Web site for this product?  A demo?
> >>    >>
> >>  www.dragonsys.com
> >>
> >Try also:
> >
> >http://idt.net/~edrose19/page7.html
> >
> >http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/default.htm
> >
> >http://www.synapseadaptive.com/
> >
> >I don't think there is a demo.
> >
> >Some built in sound cards do not work well with DNS. One case is the Dell
> >Dimension, which is what I have.  :-(   DNS runs very slowly on my system and
> >is also apparently less accurate than usual. Check the above web sites for
> >info on which computers have this problem (and other tips). The only solution
> >is to disable the built in sound card and install another approved card.
> >
> >Ann Truesdale
> >
> Voice Transcription
> Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business
> 17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104
> Renton, Washington  98058-7013
> (425) 254-1352
>
> --=====================_9946573==_.ALT
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
>
> <html>
> <font size=3>Another solution may be on its way.&nbsp; There is a new USB
> mike which bypasses the sound card and inputs digital information
> directly into DNS.&nbsp; I have one on its way to me to test and I will
> be happy to send details of my testing on it if you want to send me your
> request off-list.<br>
> <br>
> Jeri Lee<br>
> <br>
> At 01:01 PM 5/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:<br>
> &gt;In a message dated 05/11/1999 9:47:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,<br>
> &gt;LLFEdServ@AOL.COM writes:<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &lt;&lt; Is there a Web site for this product?&nbsp; A
> demo?<br>
> &gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;&gt;&nbsp;
> <a href="http://www.dragonsys.com/" eudora="autourl"><font
>  size=3>www.dragonsys.com</a><br>
> <font size=3>&gt;&gt;<br>
> &gt;Try also:<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;<a href="http://idt.net/~edrose19/page7.html" eudora="autourl"><font
>  size=3>http://idt.net/~edrose19/page7.html</a><br>
> <font size=3>&gt;<br>
> &gt;<a href="http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/default.htm"
>  eudora="autourl"><font
>  size=3>http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/default.htm</a><br>
> <font size=3>&gt;<br>
> &gt;<a href="http://www.synapseadaptive.com/" eudora="autourl"><font
>  size=3>http://www.synapseadaptive.com/</a><br>
> <font size=3>&gt;<br>
> &gt;I don't think there is a demo.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;Some built in sound cards do not work well with DNS. One case is the
> Dell<br>
> &gt;Dimension, which is what I have.&nbsp; :-(&nbsp;&nbsp; DNS runs very
> slowly on my system and<br>
> &gt;is also apparently less accurate than usual. Check the above web
> sites for<br>
> &gt;info on which computers have this problem (and other tips). The only
> solution<br>
> &gt;is to disable the built in sound card and install another approved
> card.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt;Ann Truesdale<br>
> &gt; </font><br>
>
> <font size=3>Voice Transcription<br>
> <font size=3><i>Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business<br>
> </i><font size=3>17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104<br>
> Renton, Washington&nbsp; 98058-7013<br>
> (425) 254-1352<br>
> </font></html>
>
> --=====================_9946573==_.ALT--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:31:23 -0700
Reply-To:     Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
Sender:       Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
From:         Sonsie Conroy <sconroy@SLONET.ORG>
Subject:      Re: returning payments

At 07:22 PM 6/14/1999 EDT, Barbara Cohen wrote:

>I admit to being a bit startled by the strength of the discussion that
>implies that the indexer should never make a payback. I guess I was leaving
>room for the benefit of the doubt, especially since in this situation there
>was no governing contract.

I don't think people meant to say that an indexer should NEVER reduce his or
her rate, or make some sort of compromise on fees...I know I certainly
didn't mean to imply this with my own comments.

I certainly believe, though, that if the true issue was a badly-done index,
as the author suggested, that the obvious solution was to have the original
indexer redo the job...with the author's instructions in mind. It seemed to
me, from reading the original rendition of the story, that all the price
negotiations were with the publisher (implying that the publisher was paying
the bill, which, indeed, is what happened), so the lack of a contract didn't
seem to make much difference, IMO, in this case. There was just something
fishy to me about the author's vague dislike of the index, with no
substantive issues being mentioned, and then the idea that they would
publish the book with no index at all.

In short, it seemed like some sort of strangeness that did not, in reality,
involve a poorly-done index at all, but some other difficulty that was not
the fault of the indexer.

For the record, if I had prepared an index that did not please the author or
publisher, for good and sufficient reason, I'd be prepared to refund my fee
in full, if necessary, to make it right. Of course, I'd much rather have
another go at the work and do a better job, but sometimes that is almost
worse for everybody than starting fresh. In a situation where there was a
smaller issue or problem, I'd certainly consider reducing my fee
proportionately. But this situation just didn't sound right; it didn't seem
like the indexer really had done anything wrong.

        Sonsie
        sconroy@slonet.org