Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9907D" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:51:39 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: users don't understand See references Hi, I believe there is some research that shows that book readers do not understand the meaning of 'See' references in indexes. I would like to know more about this research. Does anyone know a reference for the work, or any more info (such as how many people don't understand them). Given that many people don't understand 'See' references, has anyone tried using alternative wording in their references? I know that libraries have tried a number of different approaches (eg 'There are no items catalogued under the word you have typed. Try the other word...)(But much better written than this off-the-cuff example). If libraries have tried alternatives and it works for them, why haven't we looked for alternatives? In the online help project I am working on (my first) our team has replaced 'See' references with 'Search using' references in an attempt to make the message clearer, and also to distinguish them from 'See also' references. What do you think? Dare I write 'felines, Search using cats' in my next book index?? In case there is a feeling that this is 'dumbing the index down' to the lowest common denominator, let me add that I have been told by someone who teaches indexing to editors that the *editors* have trouble understanding "see" references. Also I know other communication professionals who also have difficulty. It might be dumbing down, but it more meaningfully written references may have benefits for a pretty large proportion of index users. Geldna. (Does anyone else's name refuse to type properly in email? Brain faster than the fingers, I think) Glenda. =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey jonjermey@hermes.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:14:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Miller Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 20 Jul 1999 to 21 Jul 1999 hi. Re: Dr. Solomon's anti-virus and costs: well, I use Norton 5.0 anti-virus and get the updates free from the internet downloads. I like them alot! rebecca miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 04:33:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: see and see also ref's n a message dated 22/07/99 06:58:32 GMT Daylight Time, diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU writes: << owner-index-l@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU> >> I believe there is some research that shows that book readers do not understand the meaning of 'See' references in indexes>> I quite agree and what a good point. I often have to update old indexes for looseleaf publications and it seems to me that some indexers (in the past anyway) don't understand the terms (ie see and see also) either. I have come across this recently in digital conversion projects where the editors are seeking to achieve uniformity in the use of these terms. I looked at only in the way of how to explain the terms better rather that changing them but that's my tunnel vision and I think it's an excellent idea to search for alternatives. If people find the terms esoteric, we need to do something about it. I'm going to do some hard thinking! Best wishes Kim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:47:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects Maryann and Linda, Before I began indexing I worked with databases a good bit and learned that each record in a database can have some flags attached to it: date of creation, who created it, etc. My choice of indexing software was truly unscientific -- I ended up with Cindex. It is a database program that does special things including the date of creation stuff AND you can attach a user id to each record. Now, if another user modifies it, then that other user id gets attached to it along with a new date and time. But generally you can track who did it first with Cindex. I also believe Cindex has a mega version for really big projects. Although I work alone at home, I've always thought it would be fun to attach a user id to my work just to be part of a team... Deborah ============================= Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:06:54 -0400 Reply-To: leditor@pop3.frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: users don't understand See references Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: > > > Given that many people don't understand 'See' references, has anyone tried > using alternative wording in their references?... [O]ur team has replaced > 'See' references with 'Search using' references in an attempt to make the > message clearer.... Dare I write 'felines, Search using cats'..... i > I wouldn't dare. "Search using" may be even more confusing than you believe "see" to be. It also tends to suggest that finding things will be laborious. Guess who gets blamed if that is the case? If you want to idiot-proof the index, you might try "Look under". As in "felines, Look under cats.' Or if one wants to be really daring--"felines, Hidden under cats.' But then would anyone who doesn't understand "see" use a word like "feline?" Even "Chicago" can't seem decide what to do about cross-reference wording. In one instance, its index says "headline-style capitalization. See under capitalization" with "See under" being italicized. But in another instance, the index reads "lithography. See offset lithography" with "See" being italicized. Why "See under" in one place but only "See" in another? Larry Edmonson Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:43:32 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: users don't understand See references larry e. edmonson wrote: > > > Even "Chicago" can't seem decide what to do about cross-reference > wording. In one instance, its index says "headline-style capitalization. > See under capitalization" with "See under" being italicized. But in > another instance, the index reads "lithography. See offset lithography" > with "See" being italicized. Why "See under" in one place but only "See" > in another? _See under_ is used when you are referring the reader to a sub heading. It is "under" the main heading. In the _Chicago_ index, "headline-style" is one of 30 or more sub heads "under" capitalization. This same technique can be used with _See also_ references. The traditional _See_ reference in the other example refers from one main head to another. I think what may confuse people is more the use of cross-references to a general entry type as in this case: works. _See specific titles_. The reader who is having difficulty is going to be looking in "s". No evidence of this, just guessing./Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:45:38 -0400 Reply-To: clmonroe Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: clmonroe Subject: Re: users don't understand See references Would it be weird to use the term "Use" instead of "See"-- like we do in thesauri? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 1:51 AM Subject: users don't understand See references > Hi, > > I believe there is some research that shows that book readers do not > understand the meaning of 'See' references in indexes. I would like to know > more about this research. Does anyone know a reference for the work, or any > more info (such as how many people don't understand them). > > Given that many people don't understand 'See' references, has anyone tried > using alternative wording in their references? I know that libraries have > tried a number of different approaches (eg 'There are no items catalogued > under the word you have typed. Try the other word...)(But much better > written than this off-the-cuff example). If libraries have tried > alternatives and it works for them, why haven't we looked for alternatives? > > In the online help project I am working on (my first) our team has replaced > 'See' references with 'Search using' references in an attempt to make the > message clearer, and also to distinguish them from 'See also' references. > What do you think? Dare I write 'felines, Search using cats' in my next book > index?? > > In case there is a feeling that this is 'dumbing the index down' to the > lowest common denominator, let me add that I have been told by someone who > teaches indexing to editors that the *editors* have trouble understanding > "see" references. Also I know other communication professionals who also > have difficulty. It might be dumbing down, but it more meaningfully written > references may have benefits for a pretty large proportion of index users. > > Geldna. > > (Does anyone else's name refuse to type properly in email? Brain faster than > the fingers, I think) > > Glenda. > > =================================== > Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne > Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring > http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey > jonjermey@hermes.net.au > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 05:29:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: users don't understand See references In-Reply-To: <199907220606.XAA20002@decibel.electriciti.com> As most of my indexes are for academic works, I caution making changes based on reported research. One research study does not a fact make. Second-hand reports can get skewed. One also needs to look at study and evaluation methodology. My basic observation about folks not understanding "See" referrals, is that such lack of reading comprehension would preclude their ability to deal with much of anything in an index--or a book that is indexed, for that matter. In the USA, students are often not taught dictionary skills (or skills in how to read an index, for that matter). I recently compiled a dictionary. Informal (very informal) extensive (quite, but not exhaustive) interviewing about dictionary search strategies shocked me. Folks my age (50s) said they would look up the silly "big dog" under "dog." Younger people (mostly 20s and 30s) mainly answered they would look under "big." (I informally selected my test phrase to be so outrageous, that I expected few would answer by adjective.) The young people said dictionaries confused them (I guess indexes, too). The dictionary I worked on ended up with numerous double postings, because it is mainly marketed to contemporary college students. It is a fairly small work and there was the ability to be flexible. Getting slowly to a point: Serious dictionaries are not going to change to accommodate the folks who can't figure things out. It's not, in my mind, dumbing things down. If a few people have difficulty with conventions, that's sad. By arbitrarily changing common conventions, broader confusion is even more assured. Indexers make arbitrary decisions everyday. I doubt there's any index that is equally accessible for 100% of potential users. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:25:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 20 Jul 1999 to 21 Jul 1999 to all: Actually, Dr. Solomon's Anti-Virus software does not have an annual fee that I know of. Here's what I do: 1. Go to www.antivirus.drsolomon.com 2. Click "Next". 3. Select largest downloadable file. 4. Save to C:/Program Files/Dr. Solomon/Anti-Virus 5. Once download is complete, run UPDATE file now in your computer and follow on-screen instructions. Maybe that will help. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:40:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: FW: users don't understand See references > I think what may confuse people is more the use of cross-references to a > general entry type as in this case: works. _See specific titles_. The > reader > who is having difficulty is going to be looking in "s". No evidence of > this, > just guessing./Dan > > I tend to agree with Dan. In evaluating different indexes created by > different sources I am constantly amazed at the wide variety of See > references. I would be interested in seeing the study, including both the > data and the methodology, that purports that users have difficulty with > straightforward See references and See also references. I think when > indexers or editors get cute and start coming up with things like "See > infra," "See supra" and "See more specific topics throughout this index" > that the user would get confused-- especially when, as I have discovered > in far too many cases, those first two are used incorrectly. > > I have also seen some cases where, in my humble opinion, See also > references were used too liberally, which can result in a cluttered and > ambiguous index. Many topics in most indexes are tangentially related to > each other, but of course they don't all warrant See also lines to each > other. When overused the result can be that the user feels compelled to > spend a great deal of time reading the index in order to make sure that > they have found everything that might relate to the topic they are looking > for, which is, of course, counterproductive to one of the Golden Rules of > Indexing, which is "Thou shalt get the user out of the index and into the > material as quickly as possible." (Ok, so it's my Golden Rule!). > > More to the point, it can also undermine the index itself. Index entries > should be complete-- that is, the user should feel confident that if she > looks under the heading CATS, everything in that book related to cats > should be represented. She should not also have to look under FELINES, > MOUSERS or TABBYS in order to garner all of the information in the index. > All of the material on all of these topics should be handled with either > dual treatment or See lines, depending on the volume of material. While > there is certainly a place for See also lines, they should be used > sparingly-- a long list of See also's at the beginning of a topic can > undermine the user's confidence that the material under that heading is > exhaustive. > > Ok, I'll put the soap box away and get back to indexing the Arkansas code > now... :-) > > -- Sharon W. > Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: new things and a little rant In-Reply-To: <93261458801@voyager.together.net> Diane, I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify? Rae ><< I'm not really looking for advice, just comments, > pos and neg. >> > Will this be another Table of Contents? Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:32:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beti Spangel Organization: The Bradley Group, Inc. Subject: New To List Hi All-- I am new to Index-L but a veteran of indexstudents. I am one lesson and the final away from finishing the USDA course and have my marketing plan in full swing. Haven't landed that first job yet but I have some promising leads and hope it won't be too far away. I am located in the Saratoga Springs/Glens Falls/Lake George region and would love to get in contact with any real live indexers in my area. I have been participating in the Western NY Chapter of the ASI which is a great group and wonderful networking opportunity. Anyone interested in contacting me directly please do so at bspangel@bradleygrp.com. I continue to learn and enjoy everyone's postings (even if I'm not 100% sure what someone may be talking about...) Beti Spangel Spread the Word Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: format of names as sub-entries Hello, all: When a sub-entry is a person's name, should one use last, first middle or first middle last. Some entries seem right one way, and some the other. For example: proprietary law schools Jones, X.Y. Smith A.B Yadayada, W.Q. In the above, it seems clear to me that the last names should come first. However: Jones, X.Y. on W.Q. Yadayada on apprenticing eulogy from A.B. Smith proprietary law school seems a better choice to me. So, two questions: How do you do it? Must I be consistent throughout the index in the format of names as sub-entries? Thanks! Regards, Ann Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:07:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: see and see also ref's In a message dated 7/22/99 4:35:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KimIndex@aol.com writes: << I quite agree and what a good point. I often have to update old indexes for looseleaf publications and it seems to me that some indexers (in the past anyway) don't understand the terms (ie see and see also) either. I have come across this recently in digital conversion projects where the editors are seeking to achieve uniformity in the use of these terms. I looked at only in the way of how to explain the terms better rather that changing them but that's my tunnel vision and I think it's an excellent idea to search for alternatives. If people find the terms esoteric, we need to do something about it. I'm going to do some hard thinking! Best wishes Kim >> Kim; Come to think of it, as a reader, before indexing courses, I was never sure what they meant. I just looked at all the entries until I found what I wanted.:-) Patrick. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:36:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects Linda Sloan wrote: > > I also may be involved in a major index project in the coming year. I > will also be interested in any replies. BTW, It may be on the Internet > which is why I'm getting interested in metadata and search engines. Search engines have very little to do with effective indexes. For a comparison, see the article "Why Create an Index?" available from the URL below. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3.1, still the easiest way to create and maintain back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:59:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: michelle wiseman Subject: advice for newcomer Hi! I am brand new at this and I am in the process of setting up my own indexing business. I have a couple of questions I am hoping some experienced indexers can answer. First, how do I know that someone isn't already operating an indexing business under the name I want to use for my business? Do I have to register my business name? Or can I just pick a name and go with it? Second, I have spoken with some people in the publishing industry who have not been very encouraging. For example, the two or three people I have talked to say that I will not be able to make a career out of indexing as I would only be able to do one index at a time, and therefore will not make enough money to stay afloat. They also say that most publishing houses already have indexers lined up and there isn't room for newcomers. And on and on. Is this true? Thanks in advance for any help or advice anyone can give me. Michelle Wiseman _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:50:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: advice for newcomer Michelle, Don't listen to those doomsday folks. You can make a living at it. Be good at what you do, increase your speed, work hard, and above all send in quality work on time. Then it'll work for you. It does for me! I work darned hard. But I make a good living. As for only doing one index at a time, that's true, mostly. But there are no hard and fast rules about it. Experience brings on speed and the ability to handle complexity in your work life. I don't know where this "helpful person" was coming from, but it wasn't good advice. Don't listen to it. Do know that at first it's hard to get established. But it's not impossible. If your realistic in your expectations of your business at the outset, and if you can weather it financially, go for it. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING http://www.marisol.com/southwestindexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:36:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: advice for newcomer Hi, Michelle, > For example, the two or three people I have > talked to say that I will not be able to make a career out of indexing as I > would only be able to do one index at a time, and therefore will not make > enough money to stay afloat. It depends on your working style. I average 5-6 completed indexes per month, and I'm almost always working on more than one at a time. I find it useful to be able to switch mentally between intense and less-intense books, between topics, and between tasks. > They also say that most publishing houses > already have indexers lined up and there isn't room for newcomers. There *are* some editors who will give you a chance, but it can take a long time to find them and to be in the right place at the right time. One of the best things to do is send samples (even of an unpublished practice index) with your resume. Also, a very good tactic is to give your samples to established indexers so they will feel comfortable referring their clients to you. In my first year, about half of my business came from referrals from one kind and busy indexer. And the best way to meet other indexers is to go to your local and national ASI meetings. Good luck! Keep asking questions here, also. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Email address change In-Reply-To: <199907220701.rpdug3.2cq.33qs884@mail00.dfw.mindspring.net> I have changed my email address to Lksloan@informationuniverse.com . I will be using email forwarding for awhile yet but please make any changes to your email address books and to any listserv that I'm subscribed to. Thank you Linda Kenny Sloan ************************************************************************ Information Universe Lksloan@informationuniverse.com Improving customer service through better information access for aerospace and astronomy publications both online and print. http://informationuniverse.com ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:07:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: medical website jobs -- somewhat OT Thought some Index-L-ers might be interested in these positions. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com Coordinator Position Openings - these are part-time, work from home positions for new Special Sections of OBGYN.net - Urogynecology, Contraception and Infertility. Coordinators are responsible for the monthly updating of special sections and must know HTML, FTP and other skills used in website designing and updating. Coordinator also needed for daily updating of the Medical Professional, Women and Patients and Industry Home pages. Send resumes to the Operations Director Mary Ann Boulette. Position open for a Medical Transcriptionist - this is a part time, work from home position, involving transcribing and editing text versions of all videos and interviews currently running on OBGYN.net and keeping our library of text versions up to date with any new material. Must have a working knowledge of medical terminology, and a CD-ROM on your computer as you will be transcribing files sent to you on CD. Prior experience as a Medical Transcriptionist is a plus! Send your resume to the Operations Director Mary Ann Boulette. Resumes for these positions will be accepted until August 1st. -- Mary Ann Boulette Director of Operations Elecomm/OBGYN.net 5707 Lakemoore Dr. Suite 100 Austin, Texas 78731 USA Office phone - 512-231-0810 Cellular Phone - 512-632-2786 mailto:maryann@obgyn.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:22:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects In-Reply-To: <199907221213.rpegpr.596.33qs884@mail00.dfw.mindspring.net> >Linda Sloan wrote: >> >> I also may be involved in a major index project in the coming year. I >> will also be interested in any replies. BTW, It may be on the Internet >> which is why I'm getting interested in metadata and search engines. > >Search engines have very little to do with effective indexes. > I beg to differ when the project may range from several thousand to 10,000 or more documents. What I'm looking into are search engines that search only metadata tags where the indexing is in the document itself. This avoids having to update a traditional index with new terms each time you add documents. I know the pitfalls of of the normal search engines but hope to avoid some of them by avoiding full-text search functions. Though I've already visited a few sites (notably Search engine watch and Dublin Core) any good information would be welcome. >For a comparison, see the article "Why Create an Index?" available from >the URL below. > >--David > >============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com >============================= > >A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ > >HTML Indexer 3.1, still the easiest way to create and maintain >back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > >Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! Linda Kenny Sloan ************************************************************************ Information Universe Lksloan@informationuniverse.com Improving customer service through better information access for aerospace and astronomy publications both online and print. http://informationuniverse.com ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:16:58 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: advice for newcomer In a message dated 7/22/99 9:01:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, michellewiseman@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Second, I have spoken with some people in the publishing industry who have not been very encouraging. For example, the two or three people I have talked to say that I will not be able to make a career out of indexing as I would only be able to do one index at a time, and therefore will not make enough money to stay afloat. They also say that most publishing houses already have indexers lined up and there isn't room for newcomers. And on and on. Is this true? Thanks in advance for any help or advice anyone can give me. >> Indexing is a viable career. You need to realize that it will take time to build up a client base, but once you have a set of regular clients, life can be good. Networking is essential. Join your local chapter of ASI and take part in their activities. Go to the Annual convention. Read some of the books on indexing published by ITI. Above all, treat it as a business and not a hobby. Good luck. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:20:49 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beti Spangel sign on index-l _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:30:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: advice for newcomer On 7/22/1999 10:59 AM michelle wiseman wrote (in part): >Second, I have spoken with some people in the publishing industry who have >not been very encouraging. For example, the two or three people I have >talked to say that I will not be able to make a career out of indexing as I >would only be able to do one index at a time, and therefore will not make >enough money to stay afloat. One way of interpreting that is "don't quit your day job." As Jan and Mary have said, you can earn a living as an indexer. It is VERY important to know that it won't happen overnight. It might take a year to three years to establish yourself to the point you feel your income is comfortable. Consider that unless you have other resources (such as a working spouse) you will either have to pay for your own health insurance or risk going without it. You'll also be responsible for self-employment taxes, the equivalent of Social Security. >.......................... First, how do I know that someone isn't >already operating an indexing business under the name I want to use for my >business? Do I have to register my business name? Or can I just pick a >name and go with it? Index-L is probably the largest electronic gathering of indexers in the world. Choose a name and ask the list about it. Registration of your business name depends on the state you live in. Check with the Secretary of State's office. hth, Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www.i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:33:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects In-Reply-To: <199907221416.rpenvh.a7q.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> > >> I also may be involved in a major index project in the > coming year. I > >> will also be interested in any replies. BTW, It may be on the Internet > >> which is why I'm getting interested in metadata and search engines. > > > >Search engines have very little to do with effective indexes. > > > I beg to differ when the project may range from several thousand to > 10,000 or more documents. What I'm looking into are search engines that > search only metadata tags where the indexing is in the document itself. Ya gotta do what you gotta do, but I'm with David on this one. The process you describe may be the best you can do under the circumstances, but bears little resemblance to an effective index. You may be reducing some of the search overhead by searching only meta tags instead of full text, but your results will only be as good as the meta tags you're searching, and meta tags themselves are not really an index. (Unless there is something implied by "where the indexing is in the document itself" that I'm missing, in which case, nevermind.) Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:42:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kay Schlembach Subject: Re: advice for newcomer I second that opinion - hard work will pay off. Kay Schlembach -----Original Message----- From: JPerlman@AOL.COM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 11:53 AM Subject: Re: advice for newcomer >Michelle, > >Don't listen to those doomsday folks. You can make a living at it. Be good >at what you do, increase your speed, work hard, and above all send in quality >work on time. Then it'll work for you. It does for me! I work darned hard. > But I make a good living. > >As for only doing one index at a time, that's true, mostly. But there are no >hard and fast rules about it. Experience brings on speed and the ability to >handle complexity in your work life. > >I don't know where this "helpful person" was coming from, but it wasn't good >advice. Don't listen to it. Do know that at first it's hard to get >established. But it's not impossible. If your realistic in your >expectations of your business at the outset, and if you can weather it >financially, go for it. > >Janet Perlman >SOUTHWEST INDEXING >http://www.marisol.com/southwestindexing > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:49:38 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: advice for newcomer Michelle, You don't need a business name--your own good name will be your best asset. Listen to your wonderful colleagues here. Indexing can be a very good career choice, and you CAN make a living at it. Get yourself known among your colleagues. Do good work. Don't worry, but don't give up your day job too soon. Craig was right: figure it could take as long as three years. It took me about four back in 1972. There's a need for good indexers, and there always will be. Keep up on your skills. Learn new techniques. Attend ASI meetings. Be willing to give up a lot of time for this. It's worth it. Elinor Lindheimer Past President, ASI elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:15:33 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: see and see also ref's In-Reply-To: I would have thought the only thing to do is have a preliminary note explaining how to use the index, including how cross-references work. Until now I would have thought this would insult the reader, but it would be better than using non-standard methods which would confuse everybody including indexers. We would have to persuade our clients to publish such notes - what are the appropriate research references we can wave in front of them? Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:56:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects > > ... What I'm looking into are search engines that search only > > metadata tags where the indexing is in the document itself. > > ... You may be reducing some of the search overhead by searching > only meta tags instead of full text, but your results will only be > as good as the meta tags you're searching, and meta tags themselves > are not really an index. And even the best META tags can provide access to information only at the file level. There's no HTML-standard mechanism for associating metadata with a specific location *within* a file. Unless the source files are small, self-contained, and focused on a single topic, you need to provide a *real* index and include entries for precise locations within those files. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3.1, still the easiest way to create and maintain back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: One of those *other* days You may recall my recent whining about unjust criticism of an index by one of my clients. Well, today was one of the days that balance things out. Several weeks ago I got a call from an author who had written a book about black lawyers in South Africa and needed an index. We spoke briefly, I agreed to do it, and he went on vacation for two weeks. There I was, still smarting from the earlier project, noticing the similarities between the types of books (both dealing with lots of names, a sore point on the first project), and I have no one to ask for guidance on the selection of topics or the handling of people and place names. He came back on Tuesday and I hesitantly faxed him a copy of the almost-complete index, and braced myself for a reply like "What on earth have you been smoking? This is not at all what my book is about." Well, he called Wednesday and had only a few minor comments, most of which were formatting suggestions and typos that would have been caught in final edit anyway. Overall, he was very happy with the content and my choice of topics. As indexers, I think we are at our best when we can take something with which the author is intimately familiar (in this case, he had been working on the book for three years), analyze it, and in a few days produce an index that reflects the content in a way the author (and, one hopes, his readers) find useful. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:21:54 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: new things and a little rant In a message dated 99-07-22 09:54:38 EDT, you write: << Diane, I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify? Rae >> ><< I'm not really looking for advice, just comments, > pos and neg. >> > Will this be another Table of Contents? >> Maybe...I didn't keep the original so this is what I remember. Seems that you want to structure the index by the author's commandments for doing some task and use a series of main and sub entries such as: Commandment One-1-I overview history current usage problems solutions variations (apples, bananas, oranges,etc) Commandment Two-2-II overview history current usage problems solutions variations (chickens, ducks, geese, etc) Commandment Three-3-III overview history current usage problems solutions variations (air, earth, fire, water, etc) or some such arrangement where the pattern of subs under all Commandments is the same. You wondered if it was ok to break the traditional alphabetical sequence of specific subject terms. I agree with previous responders. Yes, why not if it makes more sense. However, my question whether this structure is really a Table of Contents meant to get at whether it duplicated the publisher's outline tool for finding info or added value to what already existed? You did mention that the text was poorly written and unorganized with much repetition. It does have a TofC, doesn't it? What is it like? Will the index as you've structured it be much different? Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:38:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: advice for newcomer > For example, the two or three people I have > talked to say that I will not be able to make a career out of indexing as I > would only be able to do one index at a time, and therefore will not make > enough money to stay afloat. They also say that most publishing houses > already have indexers lined up and there isn't room for newcomers. And on > and on. Is this true? I generally **prefer** to do one index at a time, so that I can immerse myself in the material, although occasionally a short index on a totally different topic has made a nice break in the middle of a long project. The trick to making a living at it is to get enough indexes coming in that there isn't much downtime. And it does take a while to build up enough clients to do that. There is certainly room for good indexers. Situations change. Many newbies get their first job because somebody's favorite indexer isn't available at the moment. That was how I got my first job from the editor who is now my most frequent client and source of referrals. Recently she asked me if I knew of anyone else who was looking for indexing, because another of her indexers had retired. Janet Russell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:42:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky & Bob Hornyak Subject: Re: format of names as sub-entries Hello, Ann The publisher might have a preference. I was recently told that in a run-in format, when a person's name is the sub-entry, it should be printed as written (first middle last), but alphabetized (of course) on the last name. This was from a large scholarly press. Becky Hornyak, Indexer bhornyak@iquest.net -----Original Message----- From: Ann Norcross To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:02 AM Subject: format of names as sub-entries >Hello, all: > >When a sub-entry is a person's name, should one use last, >first middle or first middle last. Some entries seem right >one way, and some the other. > >For example: > >proprietary law schools > Jones, X.Y. > Smith A.B > Yadayada, W.Q. >In the above, it seems clear to me that the last names >should come first. > >However: >Jones, X.Y. > on W.Q. Yadayada > on apprenticing > eulogy from A.B. Smith > proprietary law school >seems a better choice to me. So, two questions: > How do you do it? > Must I be consistent throughout the index in the format of >names as sub-entries? > >Thanks! > >Regards, >Ann > >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information, Inc. >mailto:norcross@ipass.net > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:57:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Users don't understand See references Glenda says: I believe there is some research that shows that book readers do not understand the meaning of 'See' references in indexes. I would like to know more about this research. Does anyone know a reference for the work, or any more info (such as how many people don't understand them). I can't help with a reference, but I teach a book indexing component to trainee editors at two teaching institutions: an introductory course for hopeful new entrants, and a postgraduate course for those already in the industry. Although I mainly tell them how to commission and evaluate an index, I also teach them the rudiments of indexing. Because I know cross-references are difficult, I spend a lot of time explaining what they are, their function, how they work, with lots of examples. When I come to mark their assignments, it's clear that half have not understood. Unfortunately I don't get to talk to the students afterward to find out what went wrong. In spite of what I tell them in class, many of them appear to believe that "see" and "see also" references are referring the reader to the text within the book, not within the index; others are unable to grasp the difference between "see" and "see also". I don't think "search using" would solve either of those misunderstandings. There must be a solution, and I look forward to hearing how others have dealt with it. And no, I wouldn't dare to use nonstandard terms in an index without consulting the editor (who probably won't have a clue what you're talking about anyway). Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:23:03 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ljm Subject: Word 97 Users If you haven't looked at the Word 97 web site lately, you might want to check it out. There's a Y2K update for Office 95, and sales, marketing, and customer invoice templates, among other things. http://officeupdate.microsoft.com/welcome/word.htm Laura ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:54:37 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects In-Reply-To: As I see it, searching metatags with a search engine is flying blind in the same way that searching a database (such as Medline) without using the controlled vocabulary is. But people have done it for years, with varying success, and it must be better than having no metatags at all. Certainly the results will "only be as good as the meta tags you're searching" but so is any index just as good as the indexing terms allocated. I have done one project adding metatags and abstracts to webpages on innovative Australian technology companies. I hope that they will enhance the finding of these pages. There are problems, however, in that Internet-wide search engines in general do not specifically search metadata, so these carefully chosen keywords have to compete with all the other words on the net to be found. The other problem i have is that while I am using a controlled vocabulary (my own simple list) none of the searchers are. So while I would like to use only one word or phrase per concept, I feel there will be better access to the pages if I use a variety of terms. For example, if I allocate the term "Metal coatings" it will not be found by someone who searches for "Metallic surfaces". So I have ended up with a judicious use of duplicate terms. Any ideas on other approaches? Glenda. > > ... You may be reducing some of the search overhead by searching > > only meta tags instead of full text, but your results will only be > > as good as the meta tags you're searching, and meta tags themselves > > are not really an index. > > And even the best META tags can provide access to information only at > the file level. There's no HTML-standard mechanism for associating > metadata with a specific location *within* a file. > > Unless the source files are small, self-contained, and focused on a > single topic, you need to provide a *real* index and include entries > for precise locations within those files. > > --David > > ============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > ============================= > > A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ > > HTML Indexer 3.1, still the easiest way to create and maintain > back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > > Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:28:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: format of names as sub-entries In-Reply-To: <199907230404.XAA18638@a.mx.execpc.com> >When a sub-entry is a person's name, should one use last, >first middle or first middle last. Some entries seem right >one way, and some the other. > >For example: > >proprietary law schools > Jones, X.Y. > Smith A.B > Yadayada, W.Q. >In the above, it seems clear to me that the last names >should come first. I use last names only unless there's more than one person with the same last name. In that case, I include the first name (in natural order) but ignore it in sorting. One can of course include that information in a head note. > Must I be consistent throughout the index in the format of >names as sub-entries? I found it sort of fussy to include all first names in subs just because a handful required it. So I opt for that small degree of inconsistency. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:47:03 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: M Webster/Internet Express Subject: how shall I digest this list? I've tried "SET DIG" and "SET digest" and a few other combinations, and the listserv tells me I'm missing a parameter. Now, I don't want to be argumentative, but I swear I'm reproducing it exactly from the refcard the listserv sent me when I first signed up. What am I missing? Thanks, Webster ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:15:36 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= Subject: Re: Chemical symbols In-Reply-To: <199906301405.KAA11489@mail3.magma.ca> You may want to build two indexes, - one that avoids formulae, yet that gives the names of the chemicals - another that lists only formulae. You then serve best layman & expert readers. Cordially, Yves Jeaurond jingting@magma.ca ---------- > > Dear All > > I would appreciate help with a small problem. In the index I am workin= g on > at the moment, the author uses a number of simple chemical symbols, lik= e > for Carbon Dioxide and Oxygen Isotopes. Science is not my subject and = I > just can't work out how to get my computer to cope with these symbols, = ie > to put the appropriate number either above or below the letters. I use > Word 97. > > Would it be acceptable to highlight these symbols on the hard copy and > leave it for the publisher to do?? > > Many thanks > > Richard > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:36:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Chemical symbols I have been off this list for a while, so I missed the original post and any replies. This is easy in Word. Type in all of the characters, just straight on the line. Highlight the characters that need to be changed. Go to format - font and then choose superscript (to raise them up) or subscript (to lower them). Word will handle sizing and so forth. If you have to do a lot of this, invent a shorthand entry for the subscript or superscript and do a global search and replace. Iris Yves Fran=E7ois Jeaurond wrote: >=20 > You may want to build two indexes, > - one that avoids formulae, yet that gives the names of the chemicals > - another that lists only formulae. > You then serve best layman & expert readers. >=20 > Cordially, >=20 > Yves Jeaurond > jingting@magma.ca > ---------- > > > > Dear All > > > > I would appreciate help with a small problem. In the index I am work= ing on > > at the moment, the author uses a number of simple chemical symbols, l= ike > > for Carbon Dioxide and Oxygen Isotopes. Science is not my subject an= d I > > just can't work out how to get my computer to cope with these symbols= , ie > > to put the appropriate number either above or below the letters. I u= se > > Word 97. > > > > Would it be acceptable to highlight these symbols on the hard copy an= d > > leave it for the publisher to do?? > > > > Many thanks > > > > Richard > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:38:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: how shall I digest this list? In-Reply-To: <93271972501@voyager.together.net> Try SET INDEX-L DIG (or DIGEST) and if you have a sig file, turn it off. R >I've tried "SET DIG" and "SET digest" and a few other combinations, and >the listserv tells me I'm missing a parameter. Now, I don't want to be >argumentative, but I swear I'm reproducing it exactly from the refcard the >listserv sent me when I first signed up. What am I missing? >Thanks, >Webster Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:55:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: Re: users don't understand See references This thread brings to mind the cartoon I thought up a while ago for Key Words (at least I think I thought it up--if the idea came from one of you out there, apologies). I haven't sent it in because my mate, who's the artist in the house, won't do the drawing. It would go like this: Drawing shows stereotypical spinsterish librarian standing behind her desk--but she's leaning over to grab the hapless library user standing *in front of* her desk by the collar with both hands, and there's a Clint Eastwood expression on her face. Caption: "What part of *see* don't you understand?" Anyone who can draw it is welcome to it... Therese Shere Healdsburg, California ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:02:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: Users don't understand See references > In spite of what I tell them in class, many of them appear to > believe that "see" and "see also" references are referring the reader to the > text within the book, not within the index; others are unable to grasp the > difference between "see" and "see also". I don't think "search using" would > solve either of those misunderstandings. There must be a solution, and I > look forward to hearing how others have dealt with it. Librarians aren't any more successful at teaching users how to use cross-references than indexers. When I was working as a librarian, users repeatedly stopped searching when they hit a cross-reference, no matter how much I begged them to keep going. A card without a number in the corner confused them. The online catalog my local library has does it a bit better. If the user actually looks in the subject index (as opposed to just typing in a keyword) and clicks on a see reference, it just takes the user to the correct term. When indexing, I double post as much as possible rather than use see references, especially in books intended for children. I do, however, always put in a few cross-references, however, in case a fellow indexer or librarian is looking at the index. The one review of one of my indexes (in a library publication) was, in its entirety, "The index is very useful and contains both see and see also references." Janet Russell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:02:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Bailey Subject: SET INDEX-L DIG SET INDEX-L DIG ******************************************************************************* Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Ernst & Young LLP ******************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: A Twelve-Step Program for Indexers You can tell how far behind i am in my reading... i've just printed out copies of this, some for the office and some for friends who are REAL 12-step programs. Paula Durbin-Westby, trying frantically to free up memory ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:59:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Indexing away from home Has anyone ever done indexing while away from home for a period of time? How did you get your email? How did you organize your temporary "office?" Was it a nightmare or did you find it rather easy? Were there pitfalls you'd be able to avoid next time? Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:13:26 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Indexing away from home In-Reply-To: <199907231429.rphd54.uu1.37kbi3u@mx10.mindspring.com> One of the reasons I got an account with a national ISP (mindspring) was so I'd be able to check my email from anywhere in the country. So far this has worked really well on my trips to Seattle, partly because my hostess there has been so generous about letting me set up an extra 'personality' in Eudora on her computer (thanks, Jan!!! ;-). As part of that setup, I can tell Eudora to leave all that mail on the server at mindspring, and re-collect it on my own computer when I get home, in case there are important messages that I want to keep. (Of course, the laptop that's arriving next week will make all that much easier....) As far as work goes, I've found it's doable -- but do give serious thought to the space that page proofs take up in your luggage (not to mention the weight) !! For me, the hardest part is finding the quiet I need in order to focus on my work; I don't do it well in an airport or even on the plane. And because I've set up my home office in ways that are challenging to duplicate in temporary situations, I don't tend to work very efficiently away from home even if I do find a quiet spot. Something that would be high on my list is a portable substitute for the copystand we built to hold a looseleaf notebook under/in front of the monitor & above the keyboard. I think I've seen some kind of stand for notebooks, maybe at the university bookstore here, and I've also seen notebooks that have some kind of extension that makes them stand up. hope this helps! Where are you going? Caroline __________________________________________________________ | | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence | | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents, | Software documentation, and Online help systems | | Tijeras, NM | 505-286-2738 | cparks@mindspring.com | | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim." |_________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:50:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: [Fwd: Request: Forward Announcement to Index-L] CENDI Secretariat ------------------------------ THIS MESSAGE IS BEING POSTED TO MULTIPLE LISTS. WE APOLOGIZE FOR ANY DUPLICATION. CENDI Announces Conference on Controlled Vocabulary and the Internet. "Controlled Vocabulary and the Internet" will be the topic of a conference to be held on September 29, 1999 at the Auditorium of the National Library of Medicine located in the Lister Hill Building on the NIH Campus in Bethesda, MD. The conference is sponsored by CENDI, an interagency group of federal scientific and technical information managers in the federal government. Sessions will focus on navigating and presenting controlled vocabularies on the Internet, using vocabularies behind the scenes, and making more out of your vocabulary in this environment. Speakers will represent government, commercial and private sector organizations. Both implemented systems and academic research will be discussed. The preliminary program and registration information are available from the CENDI Web Site at http://www.dtic.mil/cendi/conference_index.html. The registration deadline is September 16. However, space is limited, so early registration is encouraged. CENDI is an interagency cooperative organization composed of the scientific and technical information (STI) managers from the Departments of Commerce, Energy, Defense, Interior, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the Environmental Protection Agency, and the National Libraries of Medicine, Agriculture and Medicine. CENDI's mission is to help improve the productivity of Federal science- and technology-based programs through the development and management of effective scientific and technical information support systems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:17:22 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beti Spangel Subject: New to List Hi All-- I am new to Index-L but a veteran of indexstudents. I am one lesson and the final away from finishing the USDA course and have my marketing plan in full swing. Haven't landed that first job yet but I have some promising leads and hope it won't be too far away. I am located in the Saratoga Springs/Glens Falls/Lake George region of NY and would love to get in contact with any real live indexers in my area. I have been participating in the Western NY Chapter of the ASI which is a great group and wonderful networking opportunity. Anyone interested in contacting me directly please do so at spreadword@excite.com. I continue to learn and enjoy everyone's postings (even if I'm not 100% sure what someone may be talking about...) Beti Spangel Spread the Word Indexing Services ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:54:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Reymann Subject: Indexing away from home You can retrieve your email by using http://www.mailstart.com. You just need to enter your email address and password, and it displays your messages. I'm not sure if it will work with all ISP's but it works with Mindspring. It can be slow, however. Good luck. Stephanie J. Reymann Indexing Solutions sreymann@IndexingSolutions.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:06:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: changes of address/email and otherwise Hi, I know that a number of you have changed your email address; your snail mail address or both over the last year. I wonder how it affected your businesses. 1) Do your clients have trouble remembering to email you at your new addresses. Do you maintain two addresses during a transition, and if so for how long? 2) How does a physical move of address affect your business? Has anyone made a change from a major city to a rural environment and how has it affected your clients? 3) if you suffered a drop in business, how long did it take to recover? Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:51:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: how shall I digest this list? In-Reply-To: <199907231246.FAA00133@neti.saber.net> >Try > >SET INDEX-L DIG (or DIGEST) > >and if you have a sig file, turn it off. > >R > >>I've tried "SET DIG" and "SET digest" and a few other combinations, and >>the listserv tells me I'm missing a parameter. Now, I don't want to be >>argumentative, but I swear I'm reproducing it exactly from the refcard the >>listserv sent me when I first signed up. What am I missing? >>Thanks, >>Webster The instruction for getting the digest? > Sure. Send the following message to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu set index-l digest put nothing else in the body of the message and leave the subject line blank. If/when you want to return to individual messages send the message: set index-l nodigest ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:28:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Indexing away from home Paula, This is a timely question for me. I just bought a laptop and have been working away from home all week. I read my e-mail same as at home (AOL has lots of access numbers), and I check my phone messages several times a day. Since my parents have needed medical attention and my presence 1,000 miles from my office, it was time to get with the program. So far, the hardest part has been having to prethink everything I need to work while away for 12 days. I carried a lot of stuff with me "just in case." I traveled by car, so when in doubt, I hauled whatever I thought I might need along. (I definitely brought way too much, but that was my security blanket.) I bought two Rubbermaid plastic storage boxes to hold office supplies, reference books, and proofs, and that has worked out well. I plan to keep the office supplies one stored "on the ready" for future trips, as I expect to be working this way for the next 6-8 months, until my dad recovers sufficiently to come home. I would say my biggest fear has been maintaining good communication with clients, but this week went well. Most of my clients have been understanding about waiting for a call back. And I've made everyone aware to call for my location before sending proof. (One client said she didn't even know I wasn't home until I mentioned it. That my call back had been timely.) Communication seems to be the key. Staying on top of who you need to be in touch with. And being able to pack lots of stuff. I wouldn't have wanted to haul this stuff (lots of it heavy paper) on a plane. As for my laptop, I bought a Sony VAIO F-270 to replace my aged desktop system. I plan to use it instead of the desktop even when I get home. I LOVE it! Barbara E. Cohen "on the road" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:42:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: changes of address/email and otherwise Hi Sharon, I still maintain my old e-mail (from 2 years ago) with a link to forward it all to AOL now. That costs me about $40 a year, and just today I got a good job through the old e-mail address. So I'm not ready to give it up yet... I also have my phone messages sent forwarded to my new phone number. Expensive (about $40 a month when I get one or more calls a day), but I still get one or two phone calls a month worth receiving. Eventually, I can switch to a message that gives the new phone number, but that has a one year maximum timeframe. I figure it is worth it to keep getting calls at my old number. I think they call it "remote call forwarding." A miracle of modern technology! I think I'll change to the recording when I go for 2-3 months without any important phone calls via that route. As for losing clients, I have so few local clients that is hasn't made any difference to me. But a lot would depend on where your business is. It might be harder to grow a new business in a rural place, but I tend to doubt it. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:11:11 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Deason Subject: Thanks I just wanted to say thanks to all of the established indexers who recently responded to the thread about the difficulties of getting work as a new indexer just starting out. I'm just now preparing to start marketing my new business and it is so helpful to hear words of encouragement. We do hear so many discouraging comments. Thanks again! Carol Deason IndexArts www.IndexArts.nu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:18:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: changes of address/email and otherwise When I moved three years ago I made sure to keep my phone number. I moved within the same town so didn't have to pay much extra, if anything, to keep the phone number. I think my phone might have been down one or two hours while they made the switch. I don't think I'd move and change everything; I'd be too afriad I'd lose someone somehow. Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:39:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects In-Reply-To: <199907230114.rpfui9.58m.33qs88a@mail06.dfw.mindspring.net> At 09:54 PM 7/22/99 , you wrote: >As I see it, searching metatags with a search engine is flying blind in the >same way that searching a database (such as Medline) without using the >controlled vocabulary is. But people have done it for years, with varying >success, and it must be better than having no metatags at all. > >Certainly the results will "only be as good as the meta tags you're >searching" but so is any index just as good as the indexing terms allocated. > >I have done one project adding metatags and abstracts to webpages on >innovative Australian technology companies. I hope that they will enhance >the finding of these pages. There are problems, however, in that >Internet-wide search engines in general do not specifically search metadata, >so these carefully chosen keywords have to compete with all the other words >on the net to be found. > >The other problem i have is that while I am using a controlled vocabulary >(my own simple list) none of the searchers are. So while I would like to use >only one word or phrase per concept, I feel there will be better access to >the pages if I use a variety of terms. For example, if I allocate the term >"Metal coatings" it will not be found by someone who searches for "Metallic >surfaces". So I have ended up with a judicious use of duplicate terms. > >Any ideas on other approaches? > >Glenda. > What if you were able to include a list of the terms used in the metatags for searchers to browse through. Would this make a difference as to how effective this strategy could be? Your comments will be appreciated. Linda Kenny Sloan ************************************************************************ Information Universe Lksloan@informationuniverse.com Improving customer service through better information access for aerospace and astronomy publications both online and print. http://informationuniverse.com ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: disability insurance The July issue of _Consumer Reports_ has a good article on disability insurance, including what kinds of protections a policy should include and a worksheet to calculate how much coverage you need. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:02:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: See reference cartoon In a message dated 7/23/99 9:22:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU writes: > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:55:47 EDT > From: TShere7566@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: users don't understand See references > > This thread brings to mind the cartoon I thought up a while ago for Key > Words > (at least I think I thought it up--if the idea came from one of you out > there, apologies). I haven't sent it in because my mate, who's the artist in > the house, won't do the drawing. It would go like this: > > Drawing shows stereotypical spinsterish librarian standing behind her > desk--but she's leaning over to grab the hapless library user standing *in > front of* her desk by the collar with both hands, and there's a Clint > Eastwood expression on her face. > > Caption: "What part of *see* don't you understand?" > > Anyone who can draw it is welcome to it... > > Therese Shere > Healdsburg, California > The New Yorker buys ideas for cartoons. You could try them. Helen Schinske (who once sold a column filler to them) HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:27:50 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: users don't understand See references In-Reply-To: Thankyou to everyone who replied to my question on See references not being understood. I did consider using USE, but found that the relevant standards suggest the use of USE in thesauri, but SEE in references. I like the suggestion below of "Look under", except that "under" is used in indexes to suggest a subdivision. To me "Look under cats " would suggest a subdivision of cats. I think "Search using" works better in online help because the users are using the "Search" function of the program. (It is even labelled 'Search'). I used to write quite detailed introductions, but seem to have wearied of it. It is a problem that we don't get feedback from our users, so we don't know what bits they like and use. Perhaps a concise statement about references would start the education process. I will look further to find the relevant reference, because I think the research is needed before going further. I will also check the INdex-L archives, as this is where I first heard of it. I do, however, still feel that we need to change. It is not enough to say that people should understand, if there is overwhelming evidence that they don't (although I do like Therese's idea for a cartoon). To me that is a bit like saying "Anyone who can't use DOS probably couldn't figure out a word processing package." Surely any improvement is a bonus (if, in fact, it is an improvement, on which there is certainly no agreement). But if we could find some wording that everyone agreed explained the reference better, then surely we should change. I wonder too if information literacy might improve. My son has learnt a bit about indexes and glossaries at school (by age 8) and there is more in the curriculum. Glenda. > Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: > > > > > Given that many people don't understand 'See' references, has > anyone tried > > using alternative wording in their references?... [O]ur team > has replaced > > 'See' references with 'Search using' references in an attempt > to make the > > message clearer.... Dare I write 'felines, Search using cats'..... i > > > > I wouldn't dare. "Search using" may be even more confusing than you > believe "see" to be. It also tends to suggest that finding things will > be laborious. Guess who gets blamed if that is the case? > > If you want to idiot-proof the index, you might try "Look under". As in > "felines, Look under cats.' Or if one wants to be really > daring--"felines, Hidden under cats.' > > But then would anyone who doesn't understand "see" use a word like > "feline?" > > Even "Chicago" can't seem decide what to do about cross-reference > wording. In one instance, its index says "headline-style capitalization. > See under capitalization" with "See under" being italicized. But in > another instance, the index reads "lithography. See offset lithography" > with "See" being italicized. Why "See under" in one place but only "See" > in another? > > Larry Edmonson > > Larry Edmonson > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:55:44 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Name Index.....**Quick Help Needed** Hi everyone, I am indexing a book about Hollywood's fashion designers and movie stars and their role and contribution towards AIDS fund-raising. This book is mainly name index and it has very few concepts. The editor's main demand is that the index should like "a guest list from Oscars" (her exact words). BTW, this is a *brand new* client. Now I have some questions..... 1....When names are entered as sub heads, should I put them by last name or first name? My personal choice as a reader is... fashion designers.....Calvin Klein...15-20 fashion designers.....Gianni Versace....8-14 fashion designers.....Bob Mackie.......22-27 Of course, all these and other fashions designers are going to be listed as main entries listed under their last name. 2....My 2nd question is about the 'politically correct' term for the entry. Here is the example..... Mackie, Bob...Ray Aghayan as lover and mentor of....22-23 Mackie, Bob...relationship with Ray Aghayan.....22-23 Mackie, Bob...and Ray Aghayan.....22-23 My personal choice is the *2nd entry* (relationship with Ray). Which one is politically correct and appropriate? 3....My 3rd question is about the rate. I am getting paid $3.25 per page for this book. The client offered me $2.50 per page (their standard rate). I told her that my standard rate is $3.00 per page and due to tight deadline I will charge $3.25 per page. She accepted my rate and gave me a extremely tight dead line. (BTW, this book is going to be on display at AIDS fund-raising gala event in Sept in. Hollywood). Each page has between 15-20 entries. Is this rate **appropriate** for this kind of book which is loaded with names? I am under tight deadline for this book and other projects. I have 4 projects due between now till Aug. 20. I will appreciate **quick help** from anyone. Thanks in advance. MANJIT K. SAHAI _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:58:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: W: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Karen Lane Subject: ASI Web site survey Thanks to all who participated in the survey. The Web Committee is considering all responses and will be making some major changes over the next few months. We are always happy for input from those who use the site, so if you have suggestions or concerns about the Web site, please continue to let us know. Again, thanks for those who took the time to respond. Larry Harrison, Co-chair and co-webmaster Karen Lane, Co-chair and co-webmaster Marilyn Rowland, Co-Chair and co-webmaster Seth Maislin, ASI Board Liaison Diane Brenner, co-webmaster Nancy Cannon, co-webmaster Jackie Flenner Julie Kawabata Ilana Kingsley, co-webmaster Gerry Van Ravenswaay, co-webmaster ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:10:30 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines Hi everyone, As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due between now to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. I have always been a tea drinker and I have been drinking lots of tea lately. But even with tea, my brain just does not function well after 2.00AM. It literally stops thinking. My ideal time to sleep every day is between 12:00-12:30AM. If I sleep later than that, then I start getting headaches the next day. The reason I am under so much crunch is that I have gotten 3 *new* clients in the last 2 weeks. It has never happened with me in the past and all strange and somewhat exciting things have been happening this summer. Please do not suggest listening to music as I won't disturb my husband and my son who are sleeping at that time. Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. MANJIT K. SAHAI _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:21:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen G Kasoff Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines try no-doz. Suellen On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:10:30 PDT Manjit Sahai writes: > >Hi everyone, > >As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due >between now >to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. > >I have always been a tea drinker and I have been drinking lots of tea >lately. But even with tea, my brain just does not function well after >2.00AM. It literally stops thinking. My ideal time to sleep every day >is >between 12:00-12:30AM. If I sleep later than that, then I start >getting >headaches the next day. > >The reason I am under so much crunch is that I have gotten 3 *new* >clients >in the last 2 weeks. It has never happened with me in the past and all >strange and somewhat exciting things have been happening this summer. > >Please do not suggest listening to music as I won't disturb my husband >and >my son who are sleeping at that time. > >Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. > >MANJIT K. SAHAI > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:35:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines In-Reply-To: <199907251511.LAA29443@pluto.ipass.net> Some things that work well for me: 1. Even if it is 2:00 in the morning, go outside and walk up and down the driveway, or around the block, vigorously. If this doesn't feel safe, don't do it. 2. Wash your face and brush your teeth every couple of hours. I know it sounds weird, but it sort of makes my mind and body believe that we're starting a new day, all refreshed! 3. For the music, you could try a Walkman to avoid disturbing people. For me, music tends to relax me and put me to sleep rather that wake me up... be sure to choose your music wisely :-) 4. I avoid lots of caffeine or sugar; they give me a very short-lived boost and then I crash and REALLY want to sleep. I find that rice, toast with cheese, orange juice, and the occasional chicken leg help. That is, carbs and protein--in small amounts--every couple of hours. 5. Although you're very busy with new clients (congratulations!) do make sure to schedule adequate sleep time. Get enough sleep, and try to get it at about the same time every day or night. That's all I can think of right now. Regards, Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:35:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wanda Harding Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines You can always try a walkman - that way you CAN listen to music, but won't disturb anyone else. Also, I've found that listening to instrumental music makes it easier to concentrate than music with lyrics. If it is possible, make sure you're room lighting is bright. I used to work 3rd shift at a factory (earning $ for college) and the bright lighting was a godsend. We forgot it was dark out until we went into the lunchroom (which had big windows). Wanda Manjit Sahai wrote: > Hi everyone, > > As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due between now > to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. > > I have always been a tea drinker and I have been drinking lots of tea > lately. But even with tea, my brain just does not function well after > 2.00AM. It literally stops thinking. My ideal time to sleep every day is > between 12:00-12:30AM. If I sleep later than that, then I start getting > headaches the next day. > > The reason I am under so much crunch is that I have gotten 3 *new* clients > in the last 2 weeks. It has never happened with me in the past and all > strange and somewhat exciting things have been happening this summer. > > Please do not suggest listening to music as I won't disturb my husband and > my son who are sleeping at that time. > > Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > MANJIT K. SAHAI > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Crowley Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines In-Reply-To: <19990725151135.BUJV8696@listserv.cuny.edu> Dear Manjit, Get your sleep! If you get sick due to sleep deprivation (which negatively affects your immune system), you will not be able to get *any* of this work done! It is futile and destructive to resist your body's basic need for sleep. I have found that when I am suffering from sleep deprivation, the later I force myself to stay up, the less effective I work. (I have actually been known to fall asleep with my head against the monitor in a state of such exhaustion!!!!) I can do twice the work if I go to bed and get a good night's sleep, and wake up bright and early in the morning and get going on work first thing. I have also read that the sleep that you get before midnight is more restful and effective than sleep that you get after midnight. For example, if you sleep from 10PM-6AM or even better from 9PM-5AM, you are much better off than if you sleep from 2AM-10AM, just by the design of our human internal clocks, even though it is the same number of hours of sleep. I know this is not the answer you're looking for, but I sincerely think this is what is healthiest. Best of luck to you and congratulations on your success! Sincerely, Julie At 08:10 AM 7/25/99 -0700, Manjit Sahai wrote: >Hi everyone, > >As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due between now >to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. Julie Moore Crowley Cataloger Stetson University College of Law 1401 61st St. S. St. Petersburg, FL 33707 727-562-7829; FAX: 727-345-8973 crowley@law.stetson.edu "Remember that you become what you practice most. You can choose to bring forth in yourself qualities of compassion, patience, kindness, humility, and peace through what you practice." -- Don't sweat the small stuff -- and it's all small stuff / by Richard Carlson. * * * Cataloging Rules!!! * * * ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: julie chivers Subject: Re: indexing courses I live in Toronto, Canada and have been lurking for a while. I have questions for Canadian indexers. I have been taking courses at Ryerson for a Publishing Certificate, but the only indexing "course" takes place over 1 1/2 hours during the Copyediting course. I have also taken the Indexing seminar offered by EAC. What I would like to know is has anyone taken the indexing courses offered at George Brown College, or at least heard about it? What was it like? Would it be more worthwhile to take the USDA courses mentioned on this list? Any information or suggestions would be appreciated. You can respond to me off the list. Thank you. jac > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:09:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines Manjit, I have to second what Julie says--when I first saw your message, uh oh, because I have been there, done that. I personally cannot function intellectually without adequate sleep--even if sleep is for only four hours. I usually get up VERY early when I have alot of indexing work to do, but I do need that sleep. One thing you have not said anything about is this: how much time do you devote to your family that could be taken over by your husband when you are working like this? Can you get by with eating sandwiches for several days and not have to spend much time cooking major meals? Can you hire a baby-sitter (if your kids are young enough to need one) to take some of the childcare crunch off your hands for a few days? Delegate some of those duties and don't feel like you have to be Superwoman. If you can spend less time on those duties and devote yourself almost 100% to work for this time period, you can probably get that sleep.(Speaking from experience here...) That's great that you have new clients, but you are feeling added pressure now because you want to keep these clients and not make a fool of yourself with badly put-together job. Four books between now and August 20 (I am assuming they are scholarly or medical texts?) is a lot to take on. One thing that I did when I was first starting out was to be afraid to say no to a new client. I have since found out that often it is possible to say no and still get work from them in the future. Just keep in touch with them and when you have free space available in your schedule, call or e-mail them and say you have space at such-and-such a time and do they have anything that you could index for them? It is better to say no rather than ending up ill from overwork and also producing less than decent work because of fatigue and other problems. There is no easy answer to your question (which is really, How do I get this work done and remain alive and sane!). Each of us has to find out what our limits are. I discovered mine the summer I had eight books to index in six weeks. Never again, not for all the gold in King Solomon's mine! Good luck. Cynthia At 11:49 AM 7/25/99 -0400, Julie Crowley wrote: >Dear Manjit, > >Get your sleep! If you get sick due to sleep deprivation (which negatively >affects your immune system), you will not be able to get *any* of this work >done! It is futile and destructive to resist your body's basic need for >sleep. > >I have found that when I am suffering from sleep deprivation, the later I >force myself to stay up, the less effective I work. (I have actually been >known to fall asleep with my head against the monitor in a state of such >exhaustion!!!!) I can do twice the work if I go to bed and get a good >night's sleep, and wake up bright and early in the morning and get going on >work first thing. I have also read that the sleep that you get before >midnight is more restful and effective than sleep that you get after >midnight. For example, if you sleep from 10PM-6AM or even better from >9PM-5AM, you are much better off than if you sleep from 2AM-10AM, just by >the design of our human internal clocks, even though it is the same number >of hours of sleep. > >I know this is not the answer you're looking for, but I sincerely think >this is what is healthiest. > >Best of luck to you and congratulations on your success! > >Sincerely, >Julie > > >At 08:10 AM 7/25/99 -0700, Manjit Sahai wrote: >>Hi everyone, >> >>As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due between now >>to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel Robertson--- ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:13:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Crowley Subject: Re: users don't understand See references In-Reply-To: <19990725092701.FAXQ1382416@listserv.cuny.edu> Dear Glenda, I am a librarian, a cataloger in particular. I spend a great deal of time and energy working on authority records (authorized headings which provide the "see" and "see also" references, so the patron can find what he is looking for even if he looks in the wrong place. In libraries, we have used "see" and "see also" references in card catalogs (and now online catalogs) over the past 100 years. Anyone who has used a library has used "see" and "see also" references. Generally speaking, these references have worked for us. Otherwise, we would change it! Like you said, even your 8-year old is getting the hang of it! I think that your conclusion to include a concise explanation of "see" and "see also" references is your best solution. Otherwise, you will be further muddying the waters for the majority of people who *do* understand "see" and "see also" references. Just my two cents! Julie Julie Moore Crowley Cataloger Stetson University College of Law 1401 61st St. S. St. Petersburg, FL 33707 727-562-7829; FAX: 727-345-8973 crowley@law.stetson.edu "Remember that you become what you practice most. You can choose to bring forth in yourself qualities of compassion, patience, kindness, humility, and peace through what you practice." -- Don't sweat the small stuff -- and it's all small stuff / by Richard Carlson. * * * Cataloging Rules!!! * * * ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:08:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines On 7/25/1999 10:10 AM Manjit Sahai wrote (in part): >As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due between now >to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. This may not help you in the short term, but I recommend physical exercise on a routine basis. I walk two miles on each of four days a week. On the alternate days I do three sets of weightlifting exercise. When I stick to this schedule I have less of a tendency to get drowsy after eating and generally feel more alert. Additional muscle leads to higher metabolism. And, when you hit a heavy schedule the conditioning will carry you through. Weight training isn't just for men, either. There are different approaches to it. The one I use builds strength, not bulk. And consider this: weight training is a very effective way for women to avoid osteoporosis in later years. Be good to yourself! hth, Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@i1.net www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:05:55 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines Hi Cynthia, My husband and my 8 year old son have been helping in cooking. So I am hardly doing any cooking these days, though I love to cook. The thing which takes away my time that I live in a very big house and I want my house to be literally *spotless*. So I spend almost 2 days in a week to clean the house. I just *can't* function in a dirty place. This coming week I am planning to hire a cleaning maid in case I find some time to make those calls. You are right about new clients. I find it very difficult to say no to a new client fearing I may not get busines from them in future. This particular client which I got on this past Friday, *insisted* that *I* should do this project because she liked my 'indexing package' so much which I sent to her in June. It felt very good to hear these kind of words and praise from a client. She refused to take no and I ended up taking the project. Currently I am working on 1 medical text book on Virology, 2 Nursing texts and 1 book on Hollywood's fashion designers. This has been the *busiest* year since I started the business. Believe me, I am NOT accepting any more projects till end of August. I need some rest !!! Thanks for all the suggestions. MANJIT K. SAHAI >From: Cynthia Bertelsen >Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > >Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines >Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:09:39 -0400 > >Manjit, > >I have to second what Julie says--when I first saw your message, uh oh, >because I have been there, done that. I personally cannot function >intellectually without adequate sleep--even if sleep is for only four >hours. >I usually get up VERY early when I have alot of indexing work to do, but I >do need that sleep. > >One thing you have not said anything about is this: how much time do you >devote to your family that could be taken over by your husband when you are >working like this? Can you get by with eating sandwiches for several days >and not have to spend much time cooking major meals? Can you hire a >baby-sitter (if your kids are young enough to need one) to take some of the >childcare crunch off your hands for a few days? Delegate some of those >duties and don't feel like you have to be Superwoman. If you can spend less >time on those duties and devote yourself almost 100% to work for this time >period, you can probably get that sleep.(Speaking from experience here...) > >That's great that you have new clients, but you are feeling added pressure >now because you want to keep these clients and not make a fool of yourself >with badly put-together job. Four books between now and August 20 (I am >assuming they are scholarly or medical texts?) is a lot to take on. One >thing that I did when I was first starting out was to be afraid to say no >to >a new client. I have since found out that often it is possible to say no >and >still get work from them in the future. Just keep in touch with them and >when you have free space available in your schedule, call or e-mail them >and >say you have space at such-and-such a time and do they have anything that >you could index for them? > >It is better to say no rather than ending up ill from overwork and also >producing less than decent work because of fatigue and other problems. > >There is no easy answer to your question (which is really, How do I get >this >work done and remain alive and sane!). Each of us has to find out what our >limits are. I discovered mine the summer I had eight books to index in six >weeks. Never again, not for all the gold in King Solomon's mine! > >Good luck. > > >Cynthia > > >At 11:49 AM 7/25/99 -0400, Julie Crowley wrote: > >Dear Manjit, > > > >Get your sleep! If you get sick due to sleep deprivation (which >negatively > >affects your immune system), you will not be able to get *any* of this >work > >done! It is futile and destructive to resist your body's basic need for > >sleep. > > > >I have found that when I am suffering from sleep deprivation, the later I > >force myself to stay up, the less effective I work. (I have actually >been > >known to fall asleep with my head against the monitor in a state of such > >exhaustion!!!!) I can do twice the work if I go to bed and get a good > >night's sleep, and wake up bright and early in the morning and get going >on > >work first thing. I have also read that the sleep that you get before > >midnight is more restful and effective than sleep that you get after > >midnight. For example, if you sleep from 10PM-6AM or even better from > >9PM-5AM, you are much better off than if you sleep from 2AM-10AM, just by > >the design of our human internal clocks, even though it is the same >number > >of hours of sleep. > > > >I know this is not the answer you're looking for, but I sincerely think > >this is what is healthiest. > > > >Best of luck to you and congratulations on your success! > > > >Sincerely, > >Julie > > > > > >At 08:10 AM 7/25/99 -0700, Manjit Sahai wrote: > >>Hi everyone, > >> > >>As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due between >now > >>to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen >Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services >Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ > >Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and >churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a >kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the >fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel >Robertson--- >****************************************** _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:38:04 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Indexing *Ann-Margret* name Hi everyone, I need help from someone regarding this Ann Margret name. The author has spelled her name as "Ann-Margret" in the book. This way, it looks like Ann Margret is her last name. I used to think that Margret was her last name and Ann was her first name. Which is correct? What is her full name? Can anyone recommend me where to find the information on Hollywood movie stars and fashion designers? I just want the help in indexing these names. I want on-line source. Any help would be appreciated. MANJIT _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:00:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines Manjit, To add one that was not mentioned. Naps. Some of us can take a short nap and awaken refreshed, rather than groggy and drugged. If you can do that, it sets you up to stay up later without being exhausted. I find that I can do "all-nighters" (almost) for one or two nights, and then the body must have its way, or else sleep deprivation symptoms set in. I am currently "allowing myself" to set my sleep schedule straight, and have had to take 1/2 day off, unplanned, to sleep late and catch up. You can fool your body with lack of sleep for just so long, and then it catches up with you. In short, what I'm saying is that you can work seriously long hours like that for a few days to handle a late/long project on deadline, but you really can't make it a way of life. You will feel like crap all the time, you'll wreck your health ultimately, and you will never really feel about the quality of your work, either .... you'll always wonder about how good it really is. So take care of yourself! Sign me "been there and done that". No more. Not if I can help it! Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: Indexing *Ann-Margret* name Manjit Sahai wrote: > I used to think that Margret was > her last name and Ann was her first name. Which is correct? What is her full > name? Ann-Margret Olsson (which I found by using the link below). > Can anyone recommend me where to find the information on Hollywood movie > stars and fashion designers? I just want the help in indexing these names. I > want on-line source. The imdb (below) will get you movie stars, and also fashion designers if they ever designed for movies. The Internet Movie Database (IM DB)http://www.imdb.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:36:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines I bought a Optimus headset from Radio Shack that has a 12 foot telephone-like (curled) extension cord and can listen to music without disturbing anyone. Try some herbal wakeup teas? Charles Anderson -----Original Message----- From: Manjit Sahai To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Sunday, July 25, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines >Hi everyone, > >As I mentioned in my previous message that I have 4 projects due between now >to Aug. 20. I need to learn some tips for keeping me awake. > >I have always been a tea drinker and I have been drinking lots of tea >lately. But even with tea, my brain just does not function well after >2.00AM. It literally stops thinking. My ideal time to sleep every day is >between 12:00-12:30AM. If I sleep later than that, then I start getting >headaches the next day. > >The reason I am under so much crunch is that I have gotten 3 *new* clients >in the last 2 weeks. It has never happened with me in the past and all >strange and somewhat exciting things have been happening this summer. > >Please do not suggest listening to music as I won't disturb my husband and >my son who are sleeping at that time. > >Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. > >MANJIT K. SAHAI > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:04:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines In-Reply-To: <199907251912.MAA11379@decibel.electriciti.com> I gotten so old, I really barely remember what an all-nighter is. When I had a really rush deadline job last year and knew I needed most of the night to work, I napped in the afternoon, had lots of orange juice to drink, and did the mid-night short walk routine. I have trained clients that I work like ever to meet their deadlines, but mostly know we all want the best possible product and too much stress could be counter-productive. The only index I have had to redo, was turned in after an all-nighter. Everyone said the author was seriously neurotic, but I prefer doing my best possible work with as healthy a body and mind as possible. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:45:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines I hired help with the housework. This gave me time to take on even more indexes! I bought frozen dinners... and took on more indexes! I said "NO" and they wouldn't take no for an answer. So I said "Yes!" It seems I have been experimenting with danger- trying to find out exactly what sort of work load will make me crack! I think I found the answer yesterday afternoon, when my mind was acting like my computer did before I bought more RAM: "There is too little memory to complete this task! Try closing some applications or stariting the program in a other window!" Unfortunately, there are no "other windows"; I have only one brain. I have to work at this pace until August 12. I now know my true limits! The only thing I haven't done wrong is to take on so much that the quality will suffer or that I'll miss deadlines. But everything else has to be put on hold for the next 3 weeks. Naps help. If I set the alarm for 10 minutes I can get rest and avoid the groggy feeling. Too much caffeine is just too much caffeine. Getting up and doing something else even though I have "no time" to do it in helps. Telling my husband, "I CAN'T" and having him say, "There, there," helps. I've decided on a number of pages per month whose limit I will no longer trangress. (I hope). Listen to the folks who have said, "Be good to yourself!" OK, back to the insanity of it all. Paula Durbin-Westby, reformed (or reforming) indexing addict ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:25:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Write" Subject: Getting back to regular mail, not digest Can someone tell me how to get back to the regular list not the digest version? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:48:38 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: computer tools for multiple indexer projects In-Reply-To: Linda, This idea actually crossed my mind too. Once the intellectual work of creating the metadata has been done, it is not too much extra work to present the data in different ways. I would like to see the metadata visible on the site, but then it would have to be edited a bit to be more readable. It would then become a site index, I guess. The trouble is, this will not help people using Internet-wide search engines as they are not yet at the relevant site. For them to find the site in the first place I need to have the words they will search on somewhere within my site, and it still seems that the way to do this is to have a variety of words to describe each concept. Glenda. > > > > What if you were able to include a list of the terms used in the > metatags for searchers to browse through. Would this make a difference as > to how effective this strategy could be? > Your comments will be appreciated. > > Linda Kenny Sloan > ************************************************************************ > Information Universe Lksloan@informationuniverse.com > Improving customer service through better information access > for aerospace and astronomy publications both online and print. > http://informationuniverse.com > ************************************************************************* > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:50:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Write" Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 23 Jul 1999 to 24 Jul 1999 How do I subscribe to the regukarversion, not digest? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 23:03:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: More than just an index...er, search engine? Hi all, September's _Smart Computing_ has an article titled, "More Than Just An Index." It describes About.com (formerly The Mining Company) with glowing praise, saying, "No other index or portal provides such detailed service, and the difference is immediately obvious." Of course, the "indexes" they are talking about are not indexes as we know them. Another case of the word meaning different things to different people. Sometimes I wish the English language would not go off on such unpredictable tangents. ;-) Just thought some of you might want to take a look. Ann Truedale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:57:58 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Indexing French Names Hi everyone, I want to thank you all those nice folks who have been helping me for indexing names. Now I want to know how should I index a French name. The name is... Antonio d'Amico....(that is the way the author has this name in the book). Should I list it as..... D'Amico, Antonio d'Amico, Antonio Amico, Antonio d' Which entry is correct? Any help would be appreciated. MANJIT _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:48:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Homer Ellison Subject: medical indexing Would anyone have advice to give on how to get freelance indexing and editing work in the medical publishing field? Thank you, ----- Homer Ellison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:10:23 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines I would like to add my two cents to this thread. I'm a natural night owl and actually work best in the afternoon and evenings. And, on the occasions when I have all-nighters I actually get into the "zone" and forget what time it is. Instead of having problems with going to sleep I actually "zone out" and will look up at the clock only to be shocked that it is 4 or 5 (or whatever) in the morning. However, and this is a big however, now that I have reached middle age (boy, do I hate having to say that!) my body will simply not function for at least a full day following an all nighter. My husband, who really frets when I stay up all night (isn't he a nice husband?) talked me into getting up earlier, instead of staying up later, in order to get my work done. So, I tried going to sleep at 12 or 12:30 (a little later then usual but when under pressure I would work that late) and then getting up at 5:30 or 6:00 am and start working. I have to say that, even with me being a natural night owl, this method has really worked out so much better then staying up all night. I highly recommend getting up earlier rather then staying up later. If you are really pressed for time get up even earlier, say 4:00 am. Stockbrokers do it all the time and seem to function quite well on that schedule. I'm sold on this being a much healthier strategy then staying up all night. I'm usually running from project to project so being useless the day after an all nighter creates havoc with my schedule, not to mention my health. Regarding your home. I agree with Paula. I have a housekeeper come in once a week and it is one of the best things I do for myself. I consider this a business expense (though I'm aware that the IRS would disagree so no, I don't deduct it as a business expense) and well worth it! While my housekeeper cleans my house I can work and make several times per hour what I'm paying her. So it just makes good sense for me to enjoy a clean house and making money while paying someone else to clean it. Besides, not only does she do better job then I do, but she also does windows :-). And, when possible, I take time out for play. Unfortunately, this year has been so busy for me (what is happening in the publishing world this year? I have never been so busy!) But I am just now enjoying such a "vacation." I haven't indexed since noon Friday. What blessed rest! Back to old salt mine tomorrow morning! Good luck balancing your life with your schedule. As I often said, indexing is not for wimps! Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:29:43 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: charges for printing books to be indexed at our office For those of you who receive books to index via email, how much do you charge to print each page? Do any of you do this with an inkjet printer? Glenda. =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey jonjermey@hermes.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:07:35 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Indexing French Names In-Reply-To: > Now I want to know how should I index a French name. The name is... > For French people one indexes the whole name as it stands except when it begins with 'de' or 'd' followed by apostrophe. In that case the preposition alone is transposed. So it would be 'Gaulle, Charles de', but 'Du Russet, Antoine'. Then give a cross-reference from the alternative form. If the person is from an English-speaking country but with a French- derived name, there is no inversion of the phrase, e.g. 'De la Mare, Walter' (info from Society of Indexers training course). But at least for European languages, I would have thought indexers should have a reference source handy for knowing how to index names - it is part of the equipment for the job. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:01:07 -0300 Reply-To: Noeline Bridge Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines When I've been extremely busy, I've found it helpful to divide the working day and evening into 2-hour sections, from 6 to 8 a.m., 8:30 to 10:30 a.m., etc., allowing for stretch breaks and what has to be done otherwise, and keeping ruthlessly to my schedule. But, even when I was young and sitting exams, I couldn't work productively past 10:30 or 11 p.m., finding I couldn't think straight, that my perspective on the task simply wasn't there anymore, that I had to sleep. I read with awe the descriptions of pulling all-nighters that some INDEX-Lers seem to go in for... A good idea to get in a maid service for the duration. Let them go at the house and try to let go of your notions of how the cleaning should be done. No one ever cleans quite up to our own standards, in some details at least. Come to think of it, you can polish a faucet or two during your breaks--it will clear your head and move your muscles in another way. And let the family cook the meals, no matter what they come up with. When you're that busy, all you want is some filling. Never having had children, I'm an expert on families, of course--but I do know that during very busy times, I'm only too grateful to have my husband see to the food, even if it isn't what I would have chosen to eat. Regarding your last deadline, which I see is Friday, August 20: once or twice, when pressed, I've asked if I could ship the index the following Monday, giving me the weekend, and this has worked. It's a desperation measure, as one wants--needs--to comply with stated deadlines, of course. But sometimes a date is given, often one on a Friday (always a convenient-looking deadline), and the editor (or other) admits that he or she won't be looking at it until Tuesday or into the following days. You can't do this with your earlier indexes because you have the work stacked up, but I've found that a query like this isn't taken amiss in special circumstances. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:23:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: charges for printing books to be indexed at our office I charge clients what it costs me (and what I charge all clients for the printing I have to do as part of creating an index, like copies for proofreading and editing the index). In my case it's 20c Australian per page, but I'm using a laser printer. An inkjet printer would cost considerably more to run. I have a fairly fast laser printer, because PDF files can take a long time to print, depending on how many graphics there are. I wouldn't even consider it with an inkjet printer, but no doubt many do. Also, I find it almost essential to use a PostScript printer because ordinary printers can create havoc with unusual fonts. Another tip is: because graphics bulk out the file enormously and take forever to both download and print, try to persuade the typesetter to create the file _without_ graphics unless it's essential for you to see them. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Jermey To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Sunday, 25 July, 1999 10:29 Subject: charges for printing books to be indexed at our office > For those of you who receive books to index via email, how much do you > charge to print each page? Do any of you do this with an inkjet printer? > > Glenda. > > =================================== > Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne > Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring > http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey > jonjermey@hermes.net.au > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:34:30 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: charges for printing books to be indexed at our office Jonathan Jermey wrote: > > For those of you who receive books to index via email, how much do you > charge to print each page? Do any of you do this with an inkjet printer? > > Glenda. Glenda, I have not done this yet, but would charge about US$40. Enough to make it worthwhile and yet not out of this world. I wouldn't want to encourage it. On a related note, do any of you ever receive two-sided proofs? Or make your own from the one-sided prrofs you have? I work in a large binder that holds about 350 pages max. Longer books need to be separated and I find this annoying as I often mark pages away from my home office/desk. If you print your own proofs, this is your choice I guess. How about bleed-through of marks? Do you think this would be a problem?/Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:45:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Reference books for indexers (was Indexing French Names) At 10:07 AM 7/26/99 +0100, J.R. Sampson wrote: > >But at least for European languages, I would have thought indexers >should have a reference source handy for knowing how to index >names - it is part of the equipment for the job. I agree 100% with John. Indexers MUST have a shelf of reference books (and some good bookmarks for reputable online reference sources, too!). The first year I was in business, I spent LOTS of money on reference books. As most of us find out, we do not have time to go to the library and check up on things. (Let's not get into one of those discussions again about whether or not an indexer should add first names to last names only given in the book, etc. We probably should at least try to get the name order correctly for commonly used languages, though!) I consider the following books to be essential for the type of indexing I do (medical and scholarly books). In no particular order: Chicago Manual of Style Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (10th ed.) Medical Subject Headings (online source also exists) Merriam Webster's Biographical Dictionary Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary Chambers Biographical Dictionary AMA Manual of Style MLA Style Manual French, Spanish, German, Italian, Latin dictionaries (I use the ones from Oxford) Indexing From A to Z Larousse Dictionary of Science and Technology Oxford Dictionary of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Dictionary of Microbiology and Molecular Biology Stedman's Medical Dictionary and Spellchecker I also have many other reference dictionaries dealing with history, psychology, literary terms, culinary terms, etc. Other indexers probably have other titles that hopefully they will share with us (hint ;->). The time I save and the accuracy I gain from having these tools on hand is priceless to me. For more on reference books for indexers, see articles in ASI's Key Words in 1997. Also see Information Sources and Reference Tools by K. G. B. Bakewell (2nd ed.), Society of Indexers, 1993. And while the Net can provide us with much information, when it comes to reference I believe it is important to be sure that the sources there be reputable and come from a recognized authority. An advantage to the print sources is that they are reputable and you can often get at them faster than you can if you get on the Net (you might not be able to connect, the site is busy, etc.). Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel Robertson--- ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:54:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: ASI Web site survey HOLY COW! I'd say you have way too many Co-chairs and Co-webmasters. Try having one person as chair and one as webmaster. Trust me, I've seen committees arranged like this before, in the long term they don't work well if at all. Brian M. Peck Technical Librarian/Indexer Legislative Library North Carolina General Assembly brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us -----Original Message----- From: Karen Lane Subject: ASI Web site survey The Web Committee is considering all responses and will be making some major changes over the next few months. Larry Harrison, Co-chair and co-webmaster Karen Lane, Co-chair and co-webmaster Marilyn Rowland, Co-Chair and co-webmaster Seth Maislin, ASI Board Liaison Diane Brenner, co-webmaster Nancy Cannon, co-webmaster Jackie Flenner Julie Kawabata Ilana Kingsley, co-webmaster Gerry Van Ravenswaay, co-webmaster ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:03:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Indexing *Ann-Margret* name At 11:38 AM 7/25/99 PDT, Manjit Sahai wrote: >I need help from someone regarding this Ann Margret name. > >The author has spelled her name as "Ann-Margret" in the book. This way, it >looks like Ann Margret is her last name. I used to think that Margret was >her last name and Ann was her first name. Which is correct? What is her full >name? She is known professionally as Ann-Margret, and is listed in all my references that way (no inversion in the name). That's how I would index her myself. Despite the fact that she does have a regular last name, it is unlikely that any reader would know it (and thus would not know how to find her if you used it). I wish I could give you a good reference for Hollywood stuff, but I just use the Information Please Almanac for most of that information. It's "People" section is helpful for names and birth/death dates and contains a lot of popular folks (like Sonny Bono, etc.) who otherwise would never make a "regular" reference book. Hope this helps... Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:13:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Tips for staying awake for meeting deadlines In-Reply-To: <199907260402.XAA16372@a.mx.execpc.com> 1. Use headphones so you *can* listen to music without disturbing others. Swing music or a good Latin beat works best for me. 2. Take a shower. 3. This one can be risky (if you sleep through your alarm), but I do this often: when you are so drowsy that the quality is dropping off, take a one- or two-hour nap, make yourself get up, and resume work. 4. Give yourself a small reward after each chapter (e.g., play two computer games, read some e-mail, whatever). 5. Do some exercises. At the very least, be sure to take breaks, get up and walk around, etc. Congrats on the new clients! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:19:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Name Index.....**Quick Help Needed** Manjit, 1....When names are entered as sub heads, should I put them by last name or first name? My personal choice as a reader is... fashion designers.....Calvin Klein...15-20 fashion designers.....Gianni Versace....8-14 fashion designers.....Bob Mackie.......22-27 I would list the subentries in alphabetical order by last name (I think I learned this from Mulvany's book): fashion designers.....Klein, Calvin ...15-20 fashion designers.....Mackie, Bob .......22-27 fashion designers.....Versace, Gianni ....8-14 2....My 2nd question is about the 'politically correct' term for the entry. Here is the example..... Mackie, Bob...Ray Aghayan as lover and mentor of....22-23 Mackie, Bob...relationship with Ray Aghayan.....22-23 Mackie, Bob...and Ray Aghayan.....22-23 I would go with the *2nd entry* (relationship with Ray); that way, I'm not passing judgement. I think it's much more politically correct and diplomatic. 3....My 3rd question is about the rate. I am getting paid $3.25 per page for this book. The client offered me $2.50 per page (their standard rate). I told her that my standard rate is $3.00 per page and due to tight deadline I will charge $3.25 per page. She accepted my rate and gave me a extremely tight dead line. (BTW, this book is going to be on display at AIDS fund-raising gala event in Sept in. Hollywood). Each page has between 15-20 entries. Is this rate **appropriate** for this kind of book which is loaded with names? I think that the rate that you're getting is acceptable and reasonable for a job like this, from what you've described. It's not highly technical; it sounds like it's just a name index. Hope that helps. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG www.communication-link.com <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:38:11 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Re: Indexing *Ann-Margret* name Hi Sonsie, Thanks for Ann-Margret name clarification. Someone from Index-L gave me URL for Internet movies database and it has helped me a lot. Happy Indexing! MANJIT >From: Sonsie Conroy >Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > >Subject: Re: Indexing *Ann-Margret* name >Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:03:52 -0700 > >At 11:38 AM 7/25/99 PDT, Manjit Sahai wrote: > > >I need help from someone regarding this Ann Margret name. > > > >The author has spelled her name as "Ann-Margret" in the book. This way, >it > >looks like Ann Margret is her last name. I used to think that Margret was > >her last name and Ann was her first name. Which is correct? What is her >full > >name? > >She is known professionally as Ann-Margret, and is listed in all my >references that way (no inversion in the name). That's how I would index >her >myself. Despite the fact that she does have a regular last name, it is >unlikely that any reader would know it (and thus would not know how to find >her if you used it). > >I wish I could give you a good reference for Hollywood stuff, but I just >use >the Information Please Almanac for most of that information. It's "People" >section is helpful for names and birth/death dates and contains a lot of >popular folks (like Sonny Bono, etc.) who otherwise would never make a >"regular" reference book. > >Hope this helps... > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:24:02 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Irene Struthers Rush Subject: Re: indexing courses In-Reply-To: as long as someone brought up the usda courses . . . i am a long-time tech writer and editor and a self-taught indexer. i've become interested in seriously studying indexing, and since the usda courses were recommended by everyone i talked to, i e-mailed them my registration on thursday, july 15. generally, i won't send credit-card information by e-mail, but i was so eager to get started, i did so in this case. i'd expected an acknowledgement, even if only an automatic reply, but got none. monday the 19th, i sent a message to the same e-mail address, requesting confirmation that they were processing my registration and information about when i might expect to receive materials. i got no response. last thursday, the 22nd, i made 15 long-distance calls to the number on their website, without ever talking to a human or even getting into a voice mail system - if i let it ring enough times, i got an automated message that the person assigned to that phone was not available and i should call back. i assume there are many people on this list who have taken the usda courses - is this typical behavior? should i be worried? is this the level of "responsiveness" i can expect if they ever do get me enrolled in the class? eager but concerned, irene >What I would like to know is has anyone taken the indexing courses offered >at George Brown College, or at least heard about it? What was it like? >Would it be more worthwhile to take the USDA courses mentioned on this list? > >Any information or suggestions would be appreciated. > >You can respond to me off the list. > >Thank you. > >jac >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:14:19 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shana Milkie Subject: Re: USDA course responsiveness In-Reply-To: <199907261736.NAA29866@server1.mich.com> Irene and others: I signed up for the USDA course last August by regular mail, and got a reasonably quick response - I think I got a written confirmation within two weeks and my materials arrived about a week after that. I sent my first lesson in to the USDA, and they forwarded it within a week or so to my instructor. I've sent all of my other lessons directly to my instructor, and she has returned them quite quickly, except for one lesson which was delayed because she had some family illnesses to attend to. If you're not already signed up for the indexstudents e-mail discussion list, you may want to do so. It's a great complement to Index-L for beginning indexers. You can sign up at: http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/indexstudents - Shana Milkie (e-mail: smilkie@mich.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:41:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: visual records indexing/cataloging Has anyone transferred their text indexing abilities to the slides/photos etc.? There's an opportunity coming up nearby that involves re-classifying/cataloging a slide collection. I'm somewhat attracted to the work and wonder if there are any experienced folks out there with advice or who can refer me to an introductory resource or review of the procedures involved. Barbara Stroup ********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:36:39 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: USDA course responsiveness Shana Milkie wrote: > > > If you're not already signed up for the indexstudents e-mail discussion > list, you may want to do so. It's a great complement to Index-L for > beginning indexers. You can sign up at: > > http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/indexstudents > > - Shana Milkie (e-mail: smilkie@mich.com) Thanks for the list plug, Shana. However, the subscription address is http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/indexstudents. Our list is up to 296. Subscriber # 300 gets a virtual blender! Come on over./Dan--listowner. -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:45:42 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: indexing courses Irene Struthers Rush wrote: > a > > i assume there are many people on this list who have taken the usda courses > - is this typical behavior? should i be worried? is this the level of > "responsiveness" i can expect if they ever do get me enrolled in the class? > > eager but concerned, > > irene > > Irene, The USDA course is quite worthwhile, but you had better relax about quick response. You will be enrolled in due time and receive your course materials. It is better not to watch for the mailman with USDA. Don't be discouraged, however. Just practice your indexing. Jean Middleton IndexEmpire Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:05:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "CHRISLI/CHRISTMAN, LILLIAN (ISDC-ISD-OOCL/SNT)" Subject: Position Opening > The E-Commerce Department of OOCL has an opening for an information > analyst. The primary responsibility of this position is to develop an > information model of a web-based information repository. At a minimum, > the model should consist of a controlled vocabulary and thesaurus. > Information modeling is a new area for OOCL and techniques developed by > indexers and librarians seem very promising. Especially appealing are some > of the ideas expressed in "Mind Maps: Hot New Tools Proposed for > Cyberspace Librarians", by Nancy Humphreys > and Peter > Morville's, "How Do You Build a Thesaurus?" > http://webreview.com/wr/pub/98/10/30/feature/index2.html > > OOCL (Orient Overseas Container Lines) is a global transportation company > that creatively uses technology to maintain its competitive edge. OOCL is > a finalist in this year's Computerworld Smithsonian awards for innovative > technology. The information analyst position is located in our San Jose, > CA office. Applicants can send their resumes and inquiries directly to me > at chrisli@oocl.com. > > Lillian Christman > Manager > OOCL (USA) > 2841 Junction Ave, Suite 200 > San Jose, CA 95134 > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:28:55 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: michelle wiseman Subject: Re: indexing courses Hi Irene! I am currently taking the USDA course. It took forever to get a confirmation on my registration. I think it took almost a month for me to receive any kind of correspondence from them at all. I did manage to get a hold of a person at the phone number they have listed, but only after numerous tries. They are really slow, but hang in there. On a different note, thanks to everyone who recently answered my questions on advice for a newcomer. I really appreciate it! Sincerely, Michelle Wiseman By the Book Indexing Services >From: Irene Struthers Rush >Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > >Subject: Re: indexing courses >Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:24:02 PDT > >as long as someone brought up the usda courses . . . > >i am a long-time tech writer and editor and a self-taught indexer. i've >become interested in seriously studying indexing, and since the usda >courses were recommended by everyone i talked to, i e-mailed them my >registration on thursday, july 15. generally, i won't send credit-card >information by e-mail, but i was so eager to get started, i did so in this >case. i'd expected an acknowledgement, even if only an automatic reply, >but got none. monday the 19th, i sent a message to the same e-mail >address, requesting confirmation that they were processing my registration >and information about when i might expect to receive materials. i got no >response. last thursday, the 22nd, i made 15 long-distance calls to the >number on their website, without ever talking to a human or even getting >into a voice mail system - if i let it ring enough times, i got an >automated message that the person assigned to that phone was not available >and i should call back. > >i assume there are many people on this list who have taken the usda courses >- is this typical behavior? should i be worried? is this the level of >"responsiveness" i can expect if they ever do get me enrolled in the class? > >eager but concerned, > >irene > > > >What I would like to know is has anyone taken the indexing courses >offered > >at George Brown College, or at least heard about it? What was it like? > >Would it be more worthwhile to take the USDA courses mentioned on this >list? > > > >Any information or suggestions would be appreciated. > > > >You can respond to me off the list. > > > >Thank you. > > > >jac > >> _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:25:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robert Brod Subject: Reminder: ASI-Wisconsin Chapter meeting ASI Wisconsin Chapter SUMMER FUN PICNIC MEETING Saturday July 31st, from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 or beyond at Doctor's Park, Fox Point, (just north of Milwaukee) Topic: "Getting Started in Indexing" For beginners, wannabes, and experienced indexers willing and able to discuss anything related to beginning an indexing career, freelance or in-house. Established indexers (and those getting established!) are encouraged to bring samples of their work to show. Bring your own picnic lunch and stay in the park as long as you like afterward. Doctor's Park has beach access, and families are cordially invited! Directions to Doctor's Park, Fox Point: From the north: take I-43 south to Brown Deer Rd.; Brown Deer east to Lake Drive (Rte. 32); Lake Dr. south (Brown Deer curves right into Lake Dr.) to about the 8400 block; look for sign for Doctor's Park on the left. Watch for balloons. From the west and south: take I-94 to Milwaukee; I-43 north to Brown Deer Rd. Follow the rest of the instructions under "from the north" In case of rain, we will meet at Carol Roberts's house, 1908 E. Edgewood Ave., Shorewood, WI (bring folding chairs if you have 'em); 414-964-5271 (home); 414-704-5271 (cell phone). Directions to Carol's house: From the north: take I-43 south to Capital Dr.; Capital east to Oakland; Oakland south (right turn) to Edgewood; left on Edgewood for a block and a half; the house is Victorian with a porch. From the west and south: I-94 to Milwaukee; i-43 north to Capital Dr. Follow the rest of the instructions under "from the north" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:58:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: visual records indexing/cataloging I've been meaning to ask the same question ever since I read an article about indexing images. If anyone responds, please either repsond to the list or include me in your response to Barbara. Thanks Paula Durbin-Westby ( apparently recovered from indexing burnout, thanks for listening!) dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:47:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Indexing rates discussion on WISP-L Hello all, I have been reading some postings regarding indexing rates on the Women in Scholarly Publishing listserve (you have to be a member of WISP to be on the list). In response to a publisher stating that they paid their indexers $2.50-$2.75 a page and the indexers were happy with those rates, I stated in a posting that usual rates for indexing scholarly books should be around $3.50 to $4.00 a page depending upon complexity of the text. I also stated that the publisher's rates were pretty low. Another publisher (from a university press) sent me a personal message to the effect that they also pay their indexers less than $3.00 a page and, get this, said the following: "We are not asked to pay more by our usual indexer(s)." Now folks, let's start asking for more. By taking on work at those low rates for scholarly works, we're shooting ourselves in the foot and hurting everyone's potential for income. 'Nuff said. Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel Robertson--- ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:09:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Re: Indexing rates discussion on WISP-L Do you have a copy of the survey? Sharon Hughes is chairing our 2000 committee and might like to look at that one. I used to be a member, but dropped sometime or other. Sandi -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia Bertelsen To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 8:51 AM Subject: Indexing rates discussion on WISP-L >Hello all, > >I have been reading some postings regarding indexing rates on the Women in >Scholarly Publishing listserve (you have to be a member of WISP to be on the >list). > >In response to a publisher stating that they paid their indexers $2.50-$2.75 >a page and the indexers were happy with those rates, I stated in a posting >that usual rates for indexing scholarly books should be around $3.50 to >$4.00 a page depending upon complexity of the text. I also stated that the >publisher's rates were pretty low. > >Another publisher (from a university press) sent me a personal message to >the effect that they also pay their indexers less than $3.00 a page and, get >this, said the following: > >"We are not asked to pay more by our usual indexer(s)." > >Now folks, let's start asking for more. By taking on work at those low rates >for scholarly works, we're shooting ourselves in the foot and hurting >everyone's potential for income. > >'Nuff said. > >Cynthia > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen >Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services >Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ > >Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and >churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a >kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the >fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel >Robertson--- >****************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Organization: Focus Information Services Subject: Re: Indexing rates discussion on WISP-L Statistically, the number one error in judgment that the self-employed population makes is this: * They undervalue themselves. Sure, there were lots of other items on the list, but it's interesting that this one comes first. - Seth ----- Original Message ----- From: Cynthia Bertelsen To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 9:47 AM Subject: Indexing rates discussion on WISP-L Hello all, I have been reading some postings regarding indexing rates on the Women in Scholarly Publishing listserve (you have to be a member of WISP to be on the list). In response to a publisher stating that they paid their indexers $2.50-$2.75 a page and the indexers were happy with those rates, I stated in a posting that usual rates for indexing scholarly books should be around $3.50 to $4.00 a page depending upon complexity of the text. I also stated that the publisher's rates were pretty low. Another publisher (from a university press) sent me a personal message to the effect that they also pay their indexers less than $3.00 a page and, get this, said the following: "We are not asked to pay more by our usual indexer(s)." Now folks, let's start asking for more. By taking on work at those low rates for scholarly works, we're shooting ourselves in the foot and hurting everyone's potential for income. 'Nuff said. Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel Robertson--- ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:19:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: Indexing rates discussion; my happy story In-Reply-To: <199907271350.JAA19641@mx06.erols.com> Cynthia wrote: >that usual rates for indexing scholarly books should be around $3.50 to >$4.00 a page depending upon complexity of the text. I also stated that the >publisher's rates were pretty low. I was paid $4 a page for a complex book (page size 8-1/2 by 11, double column, short articles by multiple authors) that I did more than ten years ago, and I would certainly want lots more than that these days. I don't do a lot of indexes, because it's only a little more than a year since my husband died, and I also do craft work. I would accept an index at $3 a page if it involved a fairly simple book I really felt like doing, but otherwise I'm content passing on anything less than $3.50 per page for most books. I just turned in yesterday the printout for an index to a book that was over 700 pages, a very complex work of religious history with 35 chapters by 33 authors. Because it was a multi-author book, I had to deal with the question of whether the Temple of Solomon referred to by one author was the same as the Jerusalem Temple referred to by another--it was, but I was at first afraid that maybe the second author was referring to the Second Temple, so on this one of course I checked with the editor; there were a lot of other complicated questions. I had done a research job for the book editor a few months before I started on this index, and that job was underfunded so I put in some extra time that wasn't paid for, but I love dealing with huge academic libraries and had fun doing it and didn't mind (except the scary times having to deal with the basement part of the library with electronic movable shelving--I have this awful temptation to leave a stool in it and see what happens if I try to close that aisle). For the index, I knew there was grant money that was helping fund the publication of this book, so I told the editor that I would be willing to do the book at $5 per page, but would be happier with $6. No, he said, there was a good budget for this, and we can afford $7 per page. We can even go higher if it gets complicated. The job did get somewhat complicated because I started working from what turned out to be first proofs, and there was a big delay before final proofs came, but the editor is extremely competent and was sure that the only pagination changes would be in two chapters that had presented problems, so I left those to do after final proofs came, with the assumption that any changes in overall pagination in the other chapters could be dealt with by offset numbers not going back over the pages themselves, and that turned out to be the case (there was actually only one chapter affected). From my point of view the set up was great, because I could work on the book at a leisurely pace until the final proofs arrived. Still, there were lots of things that went wrong--the press never got me a copy of the book on disk in a reasonable text-only format, which I find makes it much easier to work with. And the arrival of both first proofs and second proofs were promised for dates that were repeatedly missed, so that my schedule was fouled up several times. I delivered my 100-page printout yesterday and will hand over the disk tomorrow after a few last-minute changes get incorporated. When I arrived with the printout the editor expressed great happiness with the results. He had been afraid that the index would be more huge, and was pleased with the size and level of detail. Then I brought up the question of payment. The complexity was how to decide what number of pages would be counted, because the 700+ page total included possibly almost 100 pages of illustrations, and also endnotes for each chapter that were mostly not indexed. A tight interpretation of indexable pages might have given a total of $4000, but I knew I had spent over 200 hours on the index. I am not a fast indexer, because I really like to fuss over rearranging subentries as later chapters make me reevaluate earlier entries. I'll never earn huge amounts per hour, and I don't mind that, I just prefer doing indexes for people who like the kind of index I do. Anyway, I told him that I would like to get $5000, and, with complete deadpan expression he said, "No I've thought about it and I won't pay you a penny less than $6000." Needless to say, I am feeling very happy about this. I know that some of the extra is to make up for the low payment for the previous job, and some of it to make up for the schedule-wrecking delays, but how nice to deal with an editor who thinks that way. Unfortunately the academic press that will publish it doesn't seem to be a place I would want to work for, so I don't want to try to solicit other jobs from there. This editor will probably be responsible for other books, but most likely only every three or four years at most. So I will have to go back to the real world of tightwads, but this has been a very comforting experience. Patricia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:31:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Hernandez Subject: Re: visual records indexing/cataloging Barbara and Paula, There was a very interesting presentation on this subject at the National Conference. The company Archive Impact works exclusively with visual material indexing and the briefing they gave walked us through the process. The lead presenter was Kim Schroeder and the only contact information I have for her is her work number: (313) 366-1830. The company is in Detroit, MI. If you are really interested, you can call her just to ask for information. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:08:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Indexing rates In-Reply-To: <93308496101@voyager.together.net> Yesterday I got a call from a big-name publisher wanting me to do a 590 page book with 10-15 entries per page in 3 weeks for $3.25 page. I said 4 weeks and $4/page, figuring I'd never hear from them again. But I got the assignment. Upon thanking the person who referred them to me, I learned that this publisher normally pays much less than even $3 page and she was amazed that I managed to get that rate. My feeling is that I no longer have to work for less money than is worth my while. It takes the same amount of time to do an index for $3 page as it does for $4 a page, and it's not worth it to me to give up my sleep, my recreation, my TV time, my reading time, for less than a certain amount of money. I believe I got that rate because everyone else they called said no. I would have said no to their original offer. I agree with Cynthia. Also with Seth. Nuff said :-D Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: visual records indexing/cataloging > There was a very interesting presentation on this subject at the > National Conference. The company Archive Impact works exclusively with > visual material indexing and the briefing they gave walked us through the > process. The lead presenter was Kim Schroeder and the only contact > information I have for her is her work number: (313) 366-1830. The > company is in Detroit, MI. > > If you are really interested, you can call her just to ask for > information. > > > - Susan > And don't forget the presentation that was done by John Phillips of the Shoah Visual History Foundation. That was fascinating and their procedures seemed quite sophisticated. Their website is http://www.vhf.org/. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:59:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Indexing rates To Everyone: Have I got a story for you. A potential client called me yesterday about future indexing. The rate? $1.50 per page. Uh huh. The potential client explained that the rate was because the books contained so many graphics and white space. Uh huh. Well, thank you but no thank you. Robert A. Saigh Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:11:29 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nathalie Richard Subject: Re: visual records indexing/cataloging In-Reply-To: <199907271528.MAA150828@is2.dal.ca> Hello everyone, Archive Impact also has a Web site at www.archiveimpact.com I missed the original question, but I happen to work for Archive Impact, and all I do is image indexing. Nathalie Richard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:21:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "GALVIN, KATHLEEN" Subject: CONTACTING USDA I've had good luck in contacting the USDA with the following phone numbers: * (202) 314-3670 + 3 Leslie Stepney, USDA Correspondence Courses * (202) 314-3350 USDA Education main number Kathy Galvin SAFECO Business Continuity Documentation Team Mantra for the American Jungle. "Remain calm...And share your bananas." - Anne Lamott ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:25:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: Indexing rates The temptation for a new indexer is to do an index for whatever rate the publisher proposes. Because I had read previous discussions on Index-L, I decided that I would not work for less than $3.00 even for my first index. So if the subject of rates came up when I was cold calling publishers, I stated this. And several times I was told that they never go higher than $2.xx per page, and I politely nixed that possibility. Now I am not in desperate need of the income immediately, which of course makes a difference, but I am hoping that those new indexers who need the income work out some plan for survival until the first jobs so they don't have to work for a ridiculous wage and make it difficult for others to get a fair rate. One small question on the subject. Should I bring up this issue of rates myself when cold calling publishers if the person contacted does not do so? I am sending resumes and samples to those who are interested in me, but it may be wasted if it turns out that they pay below what I will accept. Thanks, Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:12:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Indexing away from home I have a laptop for just this contingency! I can get my email by dialing in to my home ISP (there isn't a national ISP with a local number for where I live, so I'd rather pay long distance charges for the occasional time away from home than for the majority when I *am* home.) My resident computer guru (i.e., my husband) has set up the dial-in program to access our long-distance phone company and use our calling card, so I don't get stuck with outrageous phone bills. I also check my answering machine daily; most machines offer the capability to check your messages from a remote phone. I don't require a whole lot of equipment for the actual work of indexing. I hole-punch all my pages and put them in a three-ring binder, dividing the chapters with tabbed dividers. If I'm marking text, I can mark it directly into the notebook as I hold it on my lap, or lay it on a desk or table to mark. I carry a bank deposit bag full of highlighters, pens, and mechanical pencils, plus erasers and extra leads. (I find that a regular pencil bag is too small, but a pencil box takes up too much space. The bank deposit bag is a good compromise.) When I'm inputting entries, I try to use a table or desk. In a pinch, though, I've been known to put the laptop on my lap and the pages on a tv tray beside my chair. I do carry a lightweight plastic copystand, and I take a chapter out of the notebook and lean it on the copystand while I input the entries. I have copies of all the necessary programs and files on my laptop, and I carry a backup disk of everything I need. Necessary programs/files include my client database, my invoice template, etc. Most of my clients accept email submission, which eliminates printing altogether. When I've needed to print something, I've always been able to borrow use of a printer (set up ahead of time); however, I'll probably get a portable printer in the future. So, what I end up carrying is a notebook full of pages, my laptop and its accoutrements, including the copystand, and a pencil bag. I take two carry-on bags (laptop and backpack), and all the indexing stuff goes with me onto the plane in case of lost luggage. My laptop bag doesn't accommodate the three-ring binder, but there are plenty that are big enough; you could get it all into one bag. Incidentally, some laptop bags are designed as backpacks, which spread the weight evenly on both shoulders. Pitfalls to avoid...If you have to overnight the index and disk to the publisher, check out the various shipping companies to be sure you can find an open shipping center or drop box where you will be, and double-check shipping times and dates. I've run into one or two situations where I had to overnight a package, and went halfway across the city before I found a drop-box or shipping center I could use. Neither UPS nor FedEx is as ubiquitous as I had assumed them to be... Also, if you leave a package at the front desk of your hotel for pickup, you may be charged a pickup fee even though the shipper picks up daily from that location. Pickup fees can be as high as $10 (on a Saturday), so check it out with your shipper beforehand. I hope some of this is helpful! Good luck! Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:04:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Indexing rates I'd love to get paid what I'm worth, which I figure after 10 years of indexing is at LEAST 4 per page for scholarly books. Would you just announce to all your publishers that you are now charging 4 per page or more? Would you suddenly be out of work? I have raised my rates gradually with some publishers, upping them 25 cents or 50 cents every so often, hoping it will be easier on them. I'd really like to figure out the best way to approach this as I'd rather tell a publisher WHY I am not so enthusiastic about working for them rather than just saying no thanks or going away silently. I don't think that will help. Could someone please write a few "model sentences" for use when talking to a publisher? I tend to stammer whn I'm asking for things I think they might think are unreasonable (even though I know I'm not being unreasonable, I'm merely asking for what I'm worth.) Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:47:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: Indexing rates I think I've mentioned this several times when this topic has come up in the past but here goes again. I don't think an absolute floor on per-page rates is a good idea because there may be cases when what seems like a low rate is actually quite good. I have, for example, made $75/hour when charging $2/page - for a book that had lots of graphics and white space, as Robert mentioned his contact claimed, and with a topic I had indexed many times before (software). I could have lived with $1.50/page for that book. And think about cookbooks with one recipe per page, or children's books. I agree that we should be paid what our time and expertise and skills are worth, but all of you out there who are turning down work because the rate is below your minimum *may* be creating opportunities for the rest of us to make some money ;-) All of our situations are individual ones, both the speed at which we work and how we judge the particular project. My two cents once again, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:44:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: help re image indexing Thanks all for your replies ! What a great resource index-L is ! Barbara********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:09:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: ergonimics of laptops ( was Indexing away from home) In-Reply-To: <199907271630.JAA05682@neti.saber.net> >When I'm inputting entries, I try to use a table or desk. In a pinch, >though, I've been known to put the laptop on my lap and the pages on a tv >tray beside my chair. I'm curious about the ergonomics of using a laptop. After all the bruhaha about setting up the keyboard at the right level so the arms are positioned just so etc. etc. it seems all this goes out the window when using a laptop. Am I missing something here? *****************************************************************************J. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Ann Meyers Subject: Re: Indexing rates Hi! I'm a lurker who has "listened in" on various topics over the past year and a half. I can't quite make up my mind if I want to try indexing--I may be lacking the required entrepreneurial spirit. Having said this I still can't resist sticking my nose in on the discussion about indexing rates. Are you as a group resistant to the idea of forming a union of some sort (do you feel--shudder!--that it wouldn't be professional)? Are most of you members of ASI? Could ASI investigate forming a set of professional standards and minimum rates expected for their members--perhaps even recognizing long-term practitioners with a professional master's award tied to an expectation of better rates for experts? (Or maybe they have done something along this line?) Perhaps I'm being naive about this; however, it seems to me in reading your comments that a lot of publishers have networked among themselves some sort of unwritten agreement to pay all of you less than you are worth. I know the value of a good index--it's the first part of any resource I introduced adolescent researchers to when I was an active reference librarian. I was constantly amazed that teenagers had not grasped the concept of an index or its value to them at some point in their academic careers. Evidently, some publishers have not yet caught on neither. Just random lurking thoughts, Mary Ann Meyers ljmmam@hypermall.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:58:44 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Indexing rates In-Reply-To: > Now I am not in desperate need of the income immediately, which of course > makes a difference, but I am hoping that those new indexers who need the > income work out some plan for survival until the first jobs so they don't > have to work for a ridiculous wage and make it difficult for others to get > a fair rate. Why should new indexers put their necks on the line so people who are not in need can get more money? Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:39:22 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Website Debut: www.IndexEmpire.Com Today is an exciting day in my life, the day I announce my website to my fellow indexers to get feedback and officially begin marketing my services as a professional indexer. Yes, I successfully completed the USDA Basic Indexing course (EDIT360) in just 9 months. Thanks, Kari! I must now work on finding clients, an even more challenging task than completing the course. This website should be a valuable tool in the process. I originally called my new business Inland Empire Indexing since I live in Riverside, California, in an area of southern California known as The Inland Empire. When my son Gary Shelman, who designed and implemented the site, suggested I apply for a domain name, however, we both agreed I needed a shorter name, and IndexEmpire was born. I welcome your comments and suggestions. Jean Middleton, Indexer IndexEmpire http://www.IndexEmpire.Com IndexPro@IndexEmpire.Com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:14:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Indexing rates discussion on WISP-L We all owe Cynthia a big debt for posting this discussion of indexing rates for scholarly books from the Women in Scholarly Publishing listserve. This is hard data that most of us would not have seen elsewhere. It is rare that this type of discussion about rates takes place in a public place. I've been an indexer for 30 years and I am beginning to suspect that the rates we are getting paid have been moving in the wrong direction -> DOWN! On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:47:53 -0400 Cynthia Bertelsen writes: > > Hello all, > > I have been reading some postings regarding indexing rates on the Women in > Scholarly Publishing listserve (you have to be a member of WISP to be on the list). > > In response to a publisher stating that they paid their indexers $2.50-$2.75 > a page and the indexers were happy with those rates, I stated in a posting > that usual rates for indexing scholarly books should be around $3.50 to > $4.00 a page depending upon complexity of the text. I also stated that the > publisher's rates were pretty low. > > Another publisher (from a university press) sent me a personal message to > the effect that they also pay their indexers less than $3.00 a page and, get > this, said the following: > > "We are not asked to pay more by our usual indexer(s)." > > Now folks, let's start asking for more. By taking on work at those low rates > for scholarly works, we're shooting ourselves in the foot and hurting > everyone's potential for income. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:20:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Fifth Rocky Mountain Indexing Conference Fifth Rocky Mountain Indexing Conference Colorado ASI Chapter presents Let's Get Profitable workshop by Susan Olason. Please join us Saturday September 18, 1999 from 9:00 to 5:00 at The Depot in Boulder Colorado. Let's Get Profitable workshop stresses that profits are the result of informed decisions at each stage of an efficient indexing and business process. This workshop will assist new indexers in setting up their businesses efficiently and provide experienced indexers with a technique to analyze their indexing workflow and increase productivity. There are many indexers who are good at indexing, but they have not organized their entire working process well enough to become both good and profitable. Unless an indexer can become comfortable with the financial outcome of the endeavor, the work will not be wholly successful or satisfactory. Whether an indexer is full-time or part-time, they want to make the most of the projects they do. Increasing the potential for becoming profitable will benefit experienced indexers, new indexers, and those indexers who anticipate moving from part-time to full-time indexing. Let's Get Profitable workshop will examine both sides of profitability, income and expenses. For the income side of profitability, the workshop will present techniques for analyzing your indexing workflow along with suggestions on how to improve your efficiency and therefore increase your income. For the expense side of profitability, the workshop will discuss business decision-making in the areas of marketing, hardware, software, scheduling and time management, workstation ergonomics, and financial planning and taxes. Susan Olason has a Masters degree in Business and is a full-time indexer. In her previous career, Susan spent 20 years as a Systems Engineer/Manager on contracts dealing primarily with how people use information. Her indexing business has been profitable since the first year, and she has been able to increase her profitability to over $80.00 per hour by using the techniques presented in the Let's Get Profitable workshop. Susan is also the Colorado ASI Chapter Chair. Registration fee: $20.00 for ASI members $25.00 for non-ASI members After September 8 or at-the-door, $30.00 Register by sending a check (made out to Colorado Chapter ASI) to: Lisa Lister 2223 McArthur Ave. Colorado Springs, CO 80909 (719) 520-5913 WindsIndex@aol.com You will receive a confirmation, map, and information about nearby restaurants for lunch. Refreshments at breaks will be provided. Directions to The Depot: Coming from Denver on US 36 (Denver-Boulder turnpike): Continue north on US 36 (28 th street) past Crossroads Mall. At Pearl Street (just past Target) turn right. Turn left after a half block and turn into Whole Foods and Barnes and Noble. At the T-intersection by the stores, turn right. You will see old stone Depot. There is plenty of parking available. Coming south on Longmont Diagonal (Colorado 119): Turn south on 30 th Street. At Pearl Street, turn right. After a half block, turn into Whole Foods and Barnes and Noble. At the T-intersection by the stores, turn right. You will see the old stone Depot. There is plenty of parking available. The Colorado ASI Chapter looks forward to meeting you at our Fifth Rocky Mountain Indexing Conference. Please address any questions about the workshop to Susan Olason, oleduke@ix.netcom.com. Please address registration questions to Lisa Lister, WindsIndex@aol.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Indexing *Ann-Margret* name > Manjit Sahai wrote: > > > I used to think that Margret was > > her last name and Ann was her first name. Which is correct? What is her full > > name? > > Ann-Margret Olsson (which I found by using the link below). > Bear in mind, though, that her stage name (well, film name) is just Ann-Margret, with no last name. Especially since this is a book full of Hollywood stars, I would index her under Ann-Margret -- the name readers will know -- with a cross-reference from her full name. I'd handle Madonna or other single-name stars the same way; most readers won't know the last name in order to look it up. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:04:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing rates Mary wrote: << I don't think an absolute floor on per-page rates is a good idea because there may be cases when what seems like a low rate is actually quite good. I have, for example, made $75/hour when charging $2/page ............. ....... I agree that we should be paid what our time and expertise and skills are worth, but all of you out there who are turning down work because the rate is below your minimum *may* be creating opportunities for the rest of us to make some money >> AMEN! YES!! It's true. Thank you, Mary. Not many agree with us. As Mary well stated, there's a rationale here. If a book is wide open in format, lots of illustrations, graphics, and been there/done that, subject matter-wise, then it's a quick job, and I can do a good index and still be well paid at $2/page. If the publisher counts pages as inclusive pages, rather than per indexable page, that makes a difference too. And, most of all, if the client calls when the pages are ready (ie, no scheduling can slip)........ if the client gives you 3 weeks to squeeze the book into your schedule .......if you like the subject matter (it's interesting, or it's so different than your usual hi-tech material, or whatever) ...........if the client pays within 2 weeks ......... in short, if you decide that you want to do this job, it fits into your schedule, and it's a good client ............. then why not?!! Like many other discussions and decisions ..... we are all entrepreneurs, in our own businesses, with differing needs and aspirations. So we'll probably make different decisions. Some of us like these "cheapie" jobs as filler in our schedules. Some of us do "quick jobs" for these indexes, and can turn them around quickly. We do good indexes, useful, reasonably complete and well thought out ..........although not quite as in-depth as the index would be if it were paid like a well-paying job. The point here: there are no hard and fast rules, and there shouldn't be talk of Absolute Minimum Payment Rates. We have no rules to adhere to. It's a free market, and each of us is in our own business. The market drives the rates. And, opportunities abound for those who can figure it out to their advantage, in an entrepreneurial sense. Yes, some of you are providing opportunities for others of us! Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 03:44:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing rates Mary wrote: << I don't think an absolute floor on per-page rates is a good idea because there may be cases when what seems like a low rate is actually quite good. I have, for example, made $75/hour when charging $2/page ............. >> Well, it's true that these things can vary a lot, and I agree that it's not possible to make a hard and fast rule for all indexing. But the publishers posting on WISP-L (and there are several now) are talking about university press scholarly books in subjects like history and political science. I've worked for one of them (a long time ago). These are not books with lots of white space, illustrations and simple topics; they're standard scholarly books that take a long time to index. I still maintain that at $2.50 a page, they're not paying enough for indexers to make a living. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:43:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Indexing rates At 03:44 AM 7/28/99 EDT, DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: >Mary wrote: > ><< I don't think an absolute floor on per-page rates is a good idea because >there may be cases when what seems like a low rate is actually quite good. I >have, for example, made $75/hour when charging $2/page ............. >> > >Well, it's true that these things can vary a lot, and I agree that it's not >possible to make a hard and fast rule for all indexing. But the publishers >posting on WISP-L (and there are several now) are talking about university >press scholarly books in subjects like history and political science. I've >worked for one of them (a long time ago). These are not books with lots of >white space, illustrations and simple topics; they're standard scholarly >books that take a long time to index. I still maintain that at $2.50 a page, >they're not paying enough for indexers to make a living. Do Mi has again raised the point here that started this discussion: we are talking about university press books ... and we are not saying that there has to be a minimum per page rate. Let's get that clear from the beginning. What we ARE saying is that for most scholarly books, $2.50-$2.75/page IS too low--most of these books have very involved conceptual frameworks, oodles of foreign names with diacritics, no section headings, many errors in different forms of the name that must be pointed out to the editor/author, etc., etc. And the indexer has to spend a great deal of time zeroing in on concepts, both explicit and implicit. The book may also be a contributed volume, thereby bringing with it even more terminology and even conceptual problems. What is disturbing is that certain university presses seem to equate their books with other types of books that demand less elbow grease on the part of the indexer. THAT is what I have a problem with. The discussion on WISP-L is VERY distressing because the editors there are continuously saying that their indexers won't ask for more money, and as Seth indicated, for these types of books, they DESERVE it, and they are undervaluing their services if they work for $2.50 a page. And as Do Mi says, that kind of money won't make a real living for you. No one is saying that we have to ask $3.50 per page ALL the time. No one is saying we can't make money by getting a lower rate at times for certain types of books. What we ARE saying is that the mentality of both indexers and editors has to change for certain types of books (i.e., scholarly, medical) because the intellectual work demanded for these books is greater. I will work for $2.50 a page or even $2.00 a page IF the book is one that meets certain criteria of mine. But a university press book is NOT one of those books. That's all. Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel Robertson--- ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:27:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sally Klingener Subject: Re: ergonimics of laptops ( was Indexing away from home) In-Reply-To: <199907280444.AAA14053@eliot.oit.umass.edu> At 12:09 PM 7/27/99 -0700, Naomi Linzer wrote >>When I'm inputting entries, I try to use a table or desk. In a pinch, >>though, I've been known to put the laptop on my lap and the pages on a tv >>tray beside my chair. > >I'm curious about the ergonomics of using a laptop. After all the bruhaha >about setting up the keyboard at the right level so the arms are positioned >just so etc. etc. it seems all this goes out the window when using a >laptop. Am I missing something here? > I've found my laptop to be better ergonomically. I put a board across my lap and position the keyboard and screen very comfortably. They seem to conform to the correct ergonomic angles. Using my desktop I go to great lengths to arrange the keyboard and chair and monitor and still have occasional problems. The drawback with the laptop is where to put the work so that it is under control and I don't have to crane my neck. Sally --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alice G. Klingener email: skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu Biology Department sally@bio.umass.edu 221 Morrill Science Center tele: (413) 577-4560 University of Massachusetts fax: (413) 545-3243 Amherst, MA 01003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sally Klingener Subject: Simple Thesaurus Software Does anyone know of an affordable thesaurus software package suitable for a small job. I am doing a 25 year index of a taxonomic biology journal, and need to keep control of the subject terms. The taxonomic names are another matter and are in a separate index. The first three year's of entries are in a Microsoft Word table with columns for Entry, Related Terms (also use for), Narrower Than and Broader Than. It is three pages long now and new entries are slowing down so this method may be quite feasible. The drawback is that I have to trace all of the threads when I come up with an term related to an existing entry. The advantage is that I can see and reprint the whole table very easily, which helps in the "thinking over" process. I'm not interested in one of those two year projects exhaustively covering an entire subject area. Thanks, Sally --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alice G. Klingener email: skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu Biology Department sally@bio.umass.edu 221 Morrill Science Center tele: (413) 577-4560 University of Massachusetts fax: (413) 545-3243 Amherst, MA 01003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: speaking of laptops and working away I have an opportunity (?) to buy an old Mac Powerbook 170 for $300. In September I was planning to lease a laptop for 2 weeks so I could go on vacation and not give up work (what the hell kind of vacation that is, I don't know), and the lease would cost me $135. Seems to me that even though the Powerbook is old, slow, etc., it will still run Cindex and Word just fine, and for another $170 I'll have it for my next vacation or if my desktop goes mental or something. I would only use it once in a while. It would also be nice to be able to work out on my deck sometimes. Or in a different room. Do any of you have any opinions of the logic of this? Is it a waste of $170, or is it a golden opp, not to be passed by. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:40:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: speaking of laptops and working away On 7/28/1999 7:02 AM Rachel Rice wrote (in part): >Do any of you have any opinions of the logic of this? Is it a waste of >$170, or is it a golden opp, not to be passed by. Compare the keyboard with your desktop keyboard. If it's missing a lot of keys you normally use for indexing, the PowerBook might not be a bargain. Also do a little research. I remember reading that there was one member of the PowerBook family whose batteries sometimes caught fire when recharging. Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@i1.net www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:56:23 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing away from home In a message dated 7/27/99 11:45:22 PM EST, Kara Pekar wrote: > When I've needed to print something, I've always been able to > borrow use of a printer (set up ahead of time); however, I'll probably get > a portable printer in the future. For printing I have found that Kinko's is pretty sensational. I transfer file copies (rtf format works well) to a diskette and can walk into any Kinko's anywhere in the US (or around the world) and print out my documents. It's pretty darned affordable too, and doesn't take much time. They are open 24 hours a day, and you can pick up a brochure listing their locations all around the world; I have been able to do this very efficiently in Florida, Indiana, New Jersey, Maine, etc. The same type of machines are available for onsite rental (IBM or Mac) in all their facilities, as well as stations where you can plug in your laptop if you wish (it's easier to lug around a diskette than the laptop, though). FedEx pickup boxes are located in all Kinko's as well. --I don't mean to be touting Kinko's horn; I'm sure there are other similar office services/chains, as well. This is just what has worked for me. I'm sure you get the picture. Otherwise, my system is as Kara's. I have a handy-dandy briefcase for my laptop and all my indexing work that goes where I go. I can tuck in a pleasure book or newspaper in the side, and with that and my personal bag(s): "have laptop, will travel!" Good luck, Barbara Pilar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing PilarW@aol.com Great Indexes for Great Books ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:06:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: speaking of laptops and working away In-Reply-To: <199907281242.IAA12727@mx06.erols.com> The powerbook that caught fire was the 5300, and actually I've been told that the ones with the problem wouldn't be around now. I use Cindex with powerbooks all the time. Maybe there are keyboard shortcuts that I could be using with the desktop, but I don't have any sense of loss about what I am doing. And being able to work other than at a desk is so attractive to me that I can't imagine not owning a laptop. On the other hand, I would never want a laptop as my only computer. I sent Rachel a message privately encouraging her to check whether it has enough memory. There might, for example, be a Powerbook 520 for very little more money that might have a lot more RAM. Also, anyone who is looking into a used/reconditioned laptop would do well to buy from a place that has tech people who will make repairs while you wait. I will be taking a computer in to the place I got it from; it's a software problem, but from a system they installed on a reconditioned Powerbook, and I assume they will manage to deal with it while I wait. I will end out reeking with cigarette smoke, but it's still better than being without the computer for 10 days, which is how long some service places take before something gets back to you. Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:57:06 -0300 Reply-To: Noeline Bridge Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Indexing rates > > Now I am not in desperate need of the income immediately, which of course > > makes a difference, but I am hoping that those new indexers who need the > > income work out some plan for survival until the first jobs so they don't > > have to work for a ridiculous wage and make it difficult for others to get > > a fair rate. In spite of ample evidence from Index-Lers that it takes about 5 years to build a client list to the point where one is fully employed in indexing, there are newcomers and wannabes who believe that all they have to do is send out the letters and risumis and the work will come. I know because I hear distressing personal accounts each year. For every new indexer who gets off to a flying start with a steady flow of decently paid work, there are others (perhaps many others) who struggle for survival. So, I am all in favour of newcomers having a plan for survival until that client list is built. However, > Why should new indexers put their necks on the line so people who > are not in need can get more money? I agree. New indexers, whether they have other sources of income or not, need to get the work, the experience, names on their risumis. Part of that experience is negotiating their own rates, discovering what they need to earn, what they can live with. If, in the process of getting indexes done, they accept less than they themselves and others feel they should...well, that's part of learning the business. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 As Janet says, we operate in a free market. If a new indexer takes up that scholarly indexing project at an inflexible $2.50/page rate that I have turned down, for the experience and the money, that's fine with me (hoping that this individual will realize that it's too low, and will move on from accepting rates like this). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:11:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: Indexing away from home In-Reply-To: <199907281257.IAA24796@mx01.erols.com> >you can plug in your laptop if you wish (it's easier to lug around a diskette >than the laptop, though). That's true, but you don't pay for the computer time if you just plug in your laptop and have something printed. I spent $27 in computer time last year at a Kinkos because I didn't have my laptop with me and wanted to have something printed out that I had to do a little work on. I agree that Kinkos is great, though one problem is most of the older Mac Powerbooks connect through Appletalk, and many of the Kinkos now only have Ethernet connections for the Macintosh. Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:22:35 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ling Heang Subject: Re: Simple Thesaurus Software ------ =_NextPart_000_01BED941.05766760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you used MultiTes? It's about Aus$500.00. The software allows you = to download and can test drive the capabilities. The notes are easy to = follow too. Regards, Ling Heang Email: heang@iinet.net.au -----Original Message----- From: Sally Klingener [SMTP:skling@OITUNIX.OIT.UMASS.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 7:45 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Simple Thesaurus Software Does anyone know of an affordable thesaurus software package suitable = for a small job. I am doing a 25 year index of a taxonomic biology journal, = and need to keep control of the subject terms. The taxonomic names are = another matter and are in a separate index. The first three year's of entries are in a Microsoft Word table with columns for Entry, Related Terms (also use for), Narrower Than and = Broader Than. It is three pages long now and new entries are slowing down so = this method may be quite feasible. The drawback is that I have to trace all = of the threads when I come up with an term related to an existing entry. = The advantage is that I can see and reprint the whole table very easily, = which helps in the "thinking over" process. I'm not interested in one of those two year projects exhaustively = covering an entire subject area. Thanks, Sally -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Alice G. Klingener email: = skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu Biology Department sally@bio.umass.edu 221 Morrill Science Center tele: (413) 577-4560 University of Massachusetts fax: (413) 545-3243 Amherst, MA 01003 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BED941.05766760 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjINAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA9AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAWgAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAEluZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNj dXNzaW9uIEdyb3VwAFNNVFAASU5ERVgtTEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAHgAC MAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACIAAABJTkRFWC1MQEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRP Ti5FRFUAAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAdAAAAJ0luZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNjdXNzaW9u IEdyb3VwJwAAAAACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOklOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5DQy5CSU5HSEFNVE9O LkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAGwAAAEluZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNjdXNzaW9uIEdy 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Subject: Re: speaking of laptops and working away Hi Rachel, Having just bought a laptop and feeling rather new to the genre, I hope my experience will be helpful: I LOVE my laptop. I just got home from traveling, and found it very convenient to use. Now that I am home, I'm about to retire my desktop model in its entirety. Just have to transfer everything to my laptop. I like the keyboard on the laptop, and I find that I can position myself ergonomically just fine if I can find a low table to work on. At home, the laptop works great on my typing stand. (I bought the mode I did based on the keyboard almost entirely. I tried a lot of models AND bought the most comfortable one, on the advice of other laptop owners.) The real issue about buying a used laptop, as far as I can tell, is what kind of warranty you will get. From what everyone told me when I bought mine, laptops can be touchier (because you are moving them around, they get more abuse than desktop computers). So, for me, the issue would be whether it is worth buying the $300 machine with no warranty or only a short-term one or renting something that includes a service plan and not having to worry if anything goes wrong. Depending on who used the $300 machine and what kind of abuse they put it through, you could be buying problems. Renting might make more sense, if you don't need the laptop except once or twice a year. As for working away from the house or in other rooms, yes, but would you? I could, now, but I doubt I will since the most comfortable setup is in my office. On the other hand, I hope to be able to take the laptop to meetings for taking notes, since I just agreed to edit my STC chapter newsletter. Not having to write notes longhand and transfer them might save me some time. Otherwise, my laptop will probably stay docked on my desk. I guess a lot about whether you want to spend $300 for a gamble or $135 for something with fewer risks depends on what kind of risk-taker you are. The fact that a laptop might be convenient applies to both. But I am amazed at how much I like mine! (Mine is faster than my old desktop, which probably has something to do with it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't buy any equipment that wasn't at least as capable as my old system. I think I'd be too frustrated if I bought a slower machine, even if it was cheap.) Do you know the person selling the laptop, or is it through a shop?? Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:00:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: speaking of laptops and working away My computer place must be the same one as yours: reeking with smoke but I get the computer back the same day. I have a portable printer that I've used to print out final versions of the index while I was on a business trip (back when indexing was a side job). It is SLOW but finally gets the job done. I don' t think I've had to use it for over a year so will have to test it to see if it still works. One of the computer people I talked to said he didn't think a used laptop was a good idea. He said they tend to break down anyway, and they are difficult to fix. He used to buy used laptops in batches but found that over 25% of them had problems and had to be returned by the customer. Taking his advice, I bought a new laptop, and it has been going strong for over four years. It's so old it doesn't even have Windows 95, but I can get an index out of it! Paula dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:11:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: ergonimics of laptops ( was Indexing away from home) I've had a lot of wrist trouble, and some neck trouble, but for some reason I don't have problems using the non-ergonomic laptop. I change the angle of attack a bit by propping the back half on a book about 2 inches high. This makes the front of the keyboard sit a bit lower. I keep my pages in a clear plastic literature stand; it's off to the side a bit, which I've been told is not good for the neck. It doesn't seem to bother me, perhaps because I take frequent breaks. The literature stand sits atop a big stack of books (four big dictionaries) so that I don't have to lower my head to read the pages. Lowering my head bothers me more than turning it slightly. This is the most un-ergonomic setup! Yet it hasn't caused me any additional problems (I started out in life with a bit of scoliosis and I think my neck actually likes to turn to that side a bit). Check back in ten years to see if I'm in traction! I've found that the most important thing for me to do for my body is to take breaks and stretch and move around. Usually the deadline isn't so tight that I can't take an additional 15-20 minutes a day to relax those typing muscles. Paula dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:52:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Indexing away from home Another problem with Kinko's (despite the fact that I also find them highly convenient) is that if you have a Kinko's charge card for your business, you can't always use it around the country. Over the years, I've had a recurring problem with that because the local store doesn't have full access to the national credit card database. If you travel outside your Kinko's region, you should get the cashier to get approval on your card as soon as you arrive, so it will be available by the time you are ready to pay. It involves a phone call, and sometimes it can take a while to get your approval because they are servicing other clients or the phone lines are busy. I usually put the charge on my general business credit card instead, but I find it irksome that a national chain can't access its own credit card records anywhere in the country. Pilar, have you ever had this problem? Or do you just use a Visa/MC instead? Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: clmonroe Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: clmonroe Subject: Re: Indexing rates As a newbie I admit that I find the information about what other indexers charge to be very important, however I would point out that other professional groups I belong to strictly prohibit discussion of rates on their listservs. The reason is that any group of suppliers getting together to agree about what they will charge is pricefixing, which is of course illegal. A union is something else altogether. But my suspicion is that you would find very few publishers that would work with unionized indexers when they could hire other freelancers cheaper. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Ann Meyers To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Indexing rates > Hi! I'm a lurker who has "listened in" on various topics over the past year > and a half. I can't quite make up my mind if I want to try indexing--I may > be lacking the required entrepreneurial spirit. > > Having said this I still can't resist sticking my nose in on the discussion > about indexing rates. Are you as a group resistant to the idea of forming a > union of some sort (do you feel--shudder!--that it wouldn't be > professional)? Are most of you members of ASI? Could ASI investigate > forming a set of professional standards and minimum rates expected for their > members--perhaps even recognizing long-term practitioners with a > professional master's award tied to an expectation of better rates for > experts? (Or maybe they have done something along this line?) > > Perhaps I'm being naive about this; however, it seems to me in reading your > comments that a lot of publishers have networked among themselves some sort > of unwritten agreement to pay all of you less than you are worth. I know > the value of a good index--it's the first part of any resource I introduced > adolescent researchers to when I was an active reference librarian. I was > constantly amazed that teenagers had not grasped the concept of an index or > its value to them at some point in their academic careers. Evidently, some > publishers have not yet caught on neither. > > Just random lurking thoughts, > Mary Ann Meyers > ljmmam@hypermall.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:27:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: Indexing rates >> Why should new indexers put their necks on the line so people who >> are not in need can get more money? > A point well-taken. However, here are some additional thoughts. My comments were in response to publishers who offered $1.50 per page for books that require substantial indexes (and I've run into several of those) and also in response to Do Mi's post about scholarly indexing. While each person must decide what rates they can live with, if a newcomer is looking to support themselves w/ indexing, a very low rate will usually not do that anyway. Especially w/ the ups and down of freelancing in general. So a survival plan is essential for all of us. I tell publishers that my rates do vary, depending on the difficulty of the index. So I do try to be flexible within a range. As usual, I learn a great deal from the discussions on Index-L. There is always more than one way to look at an issue. Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:37:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: ergonimics of laptops ( was Indexing away from home) >>When I'm inputting entries, I try to use a table or desk. In a pinch, >>though, I've been known to put the laptop on my lap and the pages on a tv >>tray beside my chair. > >I'm curious about the ergonomics of using a laptop. After all the bruhaha >about setting up the keyboard at the right level so the arms are positioned >just so etc. etc. it seems all this goes out the window when using a >laptop. Am I missing something here? > I have a laptop. I bought an inexpensive keyboard and mouse (my laptop has an eraser head as a pointer, and I did like to use it) and I have them on my desk. Then I bought a moniter stand and put the laptop on the stand and attached the keyboard and mouse to the port on the laptop (I had to buy a cable adapter/spliter because the mouse and the keyboard needed to go in the same port - but that may be just for my Thinkpad). That brought the monitor to eye level and made using it for extended periods much more comfortable. Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service >*************************************************************************** **J. >J. Naomi Linzer >Indexing Services >POB 1341 >Redway, CA 95560 >(707) 923-4361 >jnlinzer@saber.net >*************************************************************************** *** >http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:46:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: ergonimics of laptops ( was Indexing away from home) In my post about buying an additional keyboard, mouse and monitor stand for my laptop, I failed to mention that those additions are lightweight and portable enought for use in hotel rooms or where there is a table/desk arrangement. The monitor stand that I found by Fellowes is in two pieces and comes apart and could be put in a suitcase. Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:41:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: ergonimics of laptops ( was Indexing away from home) > I'm curious about the ergonomics of using a laptop. After all the bruhaha > about setting up the keyboard at the right level so the arms are positioned > just so etc. etc. it seems all this goes out the window when using a > laptop. Am I missing something here? No, you're not missing something. At its best, a laptop is not the ideal working unit for most people. But if you need the flexibility of working away from home, or even simply away from your office setup, but within your home, a laptop is the only alternative. I use mine both when I'm away and when I need to work, but need to keep an eye on my daughter. This happens less now than two years ago; since she's nearly five, she's been fine playing on her own (within earshot) for short periods. When she was three, though, I had to watch her pretty closely for safety's sake. The laptop allowed me to be in the living room while she played. I started putting my pages into a three-ring-binder for the same reason: portability. That portability is what allowed me to work part-time while remaining a stay-home mom. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:00:13 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Indexing rates In a message dated 99-07-28 09:56:16 EDT, you write: << however I would point out that other professional groups I belong to strictly prohibit discussion of rates on their listservs. The reason is that any group of suppliers getting together to agree about what they will charge is pricefixing, >> If we were real estate agents or members of other such professions we could be in serious trouble for discussing rates. (No idea how indexers fit into this picture) On the other hand, professional groups like ASI can publish the summarized results of surveys of member incomes without the same restrictions. I hope all those ASI members who receive their surveys this year will take the time to respond. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:51:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Indexing away from home > For printing I have found that Kinko's is pretty sensational. I transfer file > copies (rtf format works well) to a diskette and can walk into any Kinko's > anywhere in the US (or around the world) and print out my documents. It's > pretty darned affordable too, and doesn't take much time. They are open 24 > hours a day, and you can pick up a brochure listing their locations all > around the world; I have been able to do this very efficiently in Florida, > Indiana, New Jersey, Maine, etc. The same type of machines are available for > onsite rental (IBM or Mac) in all their facilities, as well as stations where > you can plug in your laptop if you wish (it's easier to lug around a diskette > than the laptop, though). FedEx pickup boxes are located in all Kinko's as This is a great solution, and one I hadn't thought of. Thanks, Pilar! Of course, if you are going to a small town or rural area, there may not be a copy/print center available. But it's certainly something to check out next time I travel. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:23:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexing rates In-Reply-To: <199907281031.rpu523.71m.37kbi3u@mx10.mindspring.com> > >> Why should new indexers put their necks on the line so people who > >> are not in need can get more money? > > Perhaps a re-reading of "Grapes of Wrath" is in order. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:12:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: Indexing rates In-Reply-To: <199907281355.JAA28430@mx04.erols.com> >As a newbie I admit that I find the information about what other indexers >charge to be very important, however I would point out that other >professional groups I belong to strictly prohibit discussion of rates on >their listservs. The reason is that any group of suppliers getting together >to agree about what they will charge is pricefixing, which is of course >illegal. We would be extremely foolish not to discuss what rates we are getting from various places. Otherwise we would believe the people at the publishing companies who try to tell indexers that everyone else is working for $2.50 per page. There is an ENORMOUS difference between discussing rates and fixing prices. You do not see the people on this list doing anything to prevent other people from charging whatever rates they wish. Price fixing would occur when we all got together and set agreed upon rates. WE DON'T DO THAT. There is a weird taboo in some parts of our society against talking about money. If I hadn't looked at what the Freelance Editorial Association web site had listed as the price range of what people are getting for indexing, I wouldn't have had a clue what to ask for from my the indexing job I just finished, because the other recent jobs I had done were for a fairly stingy place (the books were interesting, so I didn't mind getting a lower rate for them). If I am working for a project that has a decent budget, with a fair-minded editor who recognizes that what I have done is valuable, how am I supposed to know that I can get more money for this job than I might have asked for if I had not checked around. Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: Re: ergonimics of laptops ( was Indexing away from home) In-Reply-To: <199907280443.AAA32237@mail.penn.com> At 12:09 PM 7/27/99 -0700, Naomi Linzer wrote: >I'm curious about the ergonomics of using a laptop. After all the bruhaha >about setting up the keyboard at the right level so the arms are positioned >just so etc. etc. it seems all this goes out the window when using a >laptop. Am I missing something here? ----------------------- I've been using a laptop for about 5 years, and I think I've developed the optimal configuation, at least for me. My desktop is a slightly cutdown 4X8 piece of plywood with hardwood edges to keep it from sagging, placed on two two-drawer file cabinets. The cabinets are a bit higher than I'd like, so I raised my office chair even higher than it was designed to go, by eliminating the springiness in the support column with a piece of plastic pipe. I tilted the seat forward a bit using washers as shims between the seat and the stand, and I have a footrest under the desk, made from a 1X12 and two pieces of 2X6. I cut a hole in the desktop for the laptop, so that the computer is angled off to the left a bit but as near the front edge of the desktop as possible and somewhat to the left of the center of the space between the file cabinets. The hole is large enough so that I can insert things in the side of the computer. The computer-support platform is a piece of lightweight plywood, which is attached to the desktop by four screws. Two wedge-shaped spacers, one on each side, keep the front edge of the computer even with the desktop while slanting the keyboard downward toward the back at what seemed like the optimum angle. (This meant enlarging the desktop hole in the back because the screen needed more space for tilting back than I'd anticipated.) This setup allows me to place stapled-together chapters of proof to the right of the machine, and when I go to the next page I fling the previous page back and somewhat behind the computer, so that indexed pages lie on the mess of wires back there (this just happens). When publishers send me huge proof pages I take a little time when I get it to cut it down to normal page size. The arrangement allows me to use progressive bifocals for indexing, which I had not been able to do before. Trifocals shouldn't be necessary because the things to be looked at are pretty close together. It also cuts down on side-to-side movements of the neck and body and puts the keyboard at an angle I like. I'd never use a desktop for indexing again. I don't know why, but I like the small finger movements that the Compaq and Toshiba laptops have had; perhaps it's because my first computer was one of those "small" Compaqs with the miniature green screen and narrow keyboard. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:36:44 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Indexing rates discussion on WISP-L Hi all, I agree with Cynthia completely. When publishers tell me that they pay $3.00 or less for indexing, I quote Nancy Mulvany, "In 1993, per-page rates generally started at $3-$4 per page, depending on georgraphic area, publisher, and type of book; many medical texts, for instance, are indexed at a rate of $5-$6 per page" (p. 30). And I add, "and that was 6 years ago!" I think that most professional people, regardless of their profession, are NOT being paid what they were paid 6 years ago; and neither should we! > Now folks, let's start asking for more. By taking on work at those low rates > for scholarly works, we're shooting ourselves in the foot and hurting > everyone's potential for income. Amen! Now everyone, please raise your right hand and repeat after me... "I will not accept a rate lower than $3/page for my professional indexing services! I'm worth more than that!" You can put your hand down now. Thanks! ;-) rant off. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG www.communication-link.com <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:37:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Indexing rates t 11:00 AM 7/28/99 EDT, Sharon Hughes wrote: >In a message dated 99-07-28 09:56:16 EDT, you write: > ><< however I would point out that other professional groups I belong to >strictly prohibit discussion of rates on their listservs. The reason is that >any group of suppliers getting together to agree about what they will charge >is pricefixing, >> > > If we were real estate agents or members of other such professions we >could be in serious trouble for discussing rates. (No idea how indexers fit >into this picture) On the other hand, professional groups like ASI can >publish the summarized results of surveys of member incomes without the same >restrictions. I hope all those ASI members who receive their surveys this >year will take the time to respond. First of all, on INDEX-L we are here as individuals--if we were discussing rates on ASI-L or as a union that might be a horse of a different color. Real estate agents are required to be licensed, etc., etc., so the comparison is not completely valid, since indexers in the US are not registered, certified (sorry for using that term, my friends in the UK!), licensed, unionized, or otherwise organized except for a non-profit organization. More's the pity, probably. Again no one is saying anyone MUST charge such and such, no payment standards are being set here--the point is that indexers should feel empowered to ask for the money they feel they are worth. An analogy might be useful here to drive this point home: Does a new doctor charge less than an older, more experienced doctor? I don't think so; afterall, the new young doctor IS a doctor, isn't he? My medical bills at least don't reflect any such discrimination between the less experienced doctor and the more experienced. If that were true, then the insurance companies would require us all to go the cheaper doctors, no? This discussion is no different than quoting page 62 of the 1998 Writer's Market where it says that an indexer can bring in $20-40/hour, or $2-6/page, 40-70 cents per line, or a flat fee depending on length of the book or material to be indexed. By stating here that some indexers are charging too little, yes, it is true that they are making it hard in some ways for the profession to be taken seriously by some editors and others in publishing. As someone said on this list, it is a free market, but some indexing work needs more time and more intellectual power behind it. In the rest of the economic world, people get a reward for that sort of skill and knowledge, and that reward is called money. There is nothing wrong with saying that charging too little is not fair to the indexer himself or herself or even to the entire bunch of folks trying to raise the standards of information retrieval. As long as we are viewed as glorified data entry people (which I think some editors might be doing), well, draw your own conclusions. Back to women and war in Lebanon... Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ Long before institutionalized religions came along--and temples and churches--there was an unquestioned recognition that what goes on in a kitchen is holy. Cooking involves an enormously rich coming together of the fruits of the earth with the inventive genius of the human being. ---Laurel Robertson--- ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:37:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Indexing rates Here! Here! Mary - This is why I've said in the past that as long as I make the hourly rate I want, the per page cost is immaterial - and this is what I try to explain on the "Rates" section of my home page. Here's a good example: I was recently contacted by a publisher for whom I did many indexes years ago - my favorite editors had retired - and when I told the new editor how I charged (and what I charged per hour), she gasped. We agreed on a maximum cost that, if translated to a per page rate, would equal about $3.25 a page (a scholarly book from an academic press). When I completed the index, I based my charge on my own hourly rate, which as far as the publisher was concerned, came to about $2.75/page. The author was pleased, the author was pleased, and she will be sending me more work. I felt professional about this, I believe the editor felt it was professional, and I suspect that there won't be any questions about charges for future indexes. If we are truly professionals, as I believe, what is so wrong about charging by the hour, and not on a piece rate basis the way shirt makers do? Charles Anderson the-indexer.com -----Original Message----- From: Mary Mortensen To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Indexing rates >I think I've mentioned this several times when this topic has come up in the >past but here goes again. I don't think an absolute floor on per-page rates >is a good idea because there may be cases when what seems like a low rate is >actually quite good. I have, for example, made $75/hour when charging >$2/page - for a book that had lots of graphics and white space, as Robert >mentioned his contact claimed, and with a topic I had indexed many times >before (software). I could have lived with $1.50/page for that book. And >think about cookbooks with one recipe per page, or children's books. > >I agree that we should be paid what our time and expertise and skills are >worth, but all of you out there who are turning down work because the rate is >below your minimum *may* be creating opportunities for the rest of us to make >some money ;-) > >All of our situations are individual ones, both the speed at which we work >and how we judge the particular project. >My two cents once again, >Mary >-- >* Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com >* Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas >* Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 >* American Society of Indexers > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:51:08 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Indexing rates Mary Mortensen made a good point, but I handle such jobs differently. I usually charge by the hour for cookbooks, or for anything that looks like $3 a page might be too much for the client to bear. I charge no lower than $25 an hour. That's for a low-budget client, noting that it's my lowest rate. I don't feel cheated, especially when it's a job I can do in a couple of days, and the client is happy with a reasonable bill. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:15:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing rates, different slant All, Don't get hung up on the per page rate. That was the secondary point in my posting about $2/page. You *can* make out well financially at $2/page ..... if the material and your ability to do it quickly while doing it well coincide. Major point here: The per-page rate isn't the end-all and be-all. Take that and calculate your per-hour compensation on job after job. You'll be surprised how underpaid you can be at $4 and $5 per page ...... and how well paid you can be at $2 per page, when you calculate your rate per hour. It will be an eye opener for you. Try it on job after job. That's how you know what you're really making on each job. And that will help you set your rates. As long as the per hour rate is what you want it to be, forget about the per page rate. It's what the client uses to set his/her pay, but it's just a number. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:25:11 -0300 Reply-To: Noeline Bridge Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Indexing rates > An analogy might be > useful here to drive this point home: Does a new doctor charge less than an > older, more experienced doctor? I don't think so; afterall, the new young > doctor IS a doctor, isn't he? My medical bills at least don't reflect any > such discrimination between the less experienced doctor and the more > experienced. This analogy would appear to hold up here (in Canada we have Medicare, so we're shielded from the realities of medical bills!), but comparisons with other professions and occupations may not. When my husband and I engaged a lawyer recently, the latter suggested that any telephone queries we may have to make be directed to a junior in the firm (who was present at our meeting), because the latter's time would cost us less than his own. The junior is a qualified lawyer. I sometimes see us as analogous to other small businesses--tradespersons and the like. When I want work done on the house or yard and call for estimates, I expect to--and usually--find that the smaller, newer company will quote lower than the older, more established one with the good reputation, reflecting less experience and the need for jobs when starting out. I have to weigh up whether I want to pay less and take a chance on the quality of the job, or pay more for established worth. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:02:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexing rates In-Reply-To: <199907281126.rpu893.8a5.37kbi3u.1@mx10.mindspring.com> > > > >> Why should new indexers put their necks on the line so people who > > >> are not in need can get more money? > > > > > Perhaps a re-reading of "Grapes of Wrath" is in order. I've been asked to explain the reference, so for the benefit of anyone who hasn't read the book: During the days of the dust bowl, migrant farmers from the mid-west moved to the west coast to pick fruit. The supply of pickers exceeded the demand and wages fell. Since everyone had mouths to feed, there was always someone willing to work for a lower wage. Hence employers were always lowering the wages, until no one could make a living. The people accepting the lower wages each thought they were doing what was best for themselves, but the overall community suffered for it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:25:46 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Indexing rates, different slant I have to agree with Janet. I was once grossly underpaid, the for the work involved, at $5.25/page while I have been actually overpaid while working on a per entry pay scale (making about $80/hour while working for the equivalent of $1.50/page for an easy, no thinking required, project). I also do scholarly work and agree that anything below $3.00/page is very low. As others have pointed out, the material of the text is the defining factor in the over or under payment of an indexer. Given the vast variety of indexing work out there I think that pay rate absolutes are probably self defeating in the long run. Each project, the text material, schedule demands, indexer interest in the project, and personal situation (financial needs, available schedule, need to add new clients) all enter into the decision to accept work. And, I'm grateful to have Index-L as a forum for this kind of discussion. We are all so isolated that this is one of the few opportunities we have to both gather and share information. Even with over 10 years of indexing experience I continue to learn from the Index-L threads. Best, Sylvia Coates JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: > All, > > Don't get hung up on the per page rate. That was the secondary point in my > posting about $2/page. You *can* make out well financially at $2/page ..... > if the material and your ability to do it quickly while doing it well > coincide. > > Major point here: The per-page rate isn't the end-all and be-all. Take that > and calculate your per-hour compensation on job after job. You'll be > surprised how underpaid you can be at $4 and $5 per page ...... and how well > paid you can be at $2 per page, when you calculate your rate per hour. > > It will be an eye opener for you. Try it on job after job. That's how you > know what you're really making on each job. And that will help you set your > rates. As long as the per hour rate is what you want it to be, forget about > the per page rate. It's what the client uses to set his/her pay, but it's > just a number. > > Janet Perlman > SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:45:54 -0400 Reply-To: clmonroe Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: clmonroe Subject: discussing rates This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BED8FF.836A6280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The original statement I was responding to was-- Could ASI investigate forming a set of professional standards and = minimum rates expected for their members.=20 This was an interesting idea, as was the idea of unionizing and some = sort of ASI *expert certification*. I was just alerting you'all to the = fact that some other professionals would definitely not even consider = setting minimum rates, and don't even want their members to talk about = such things. I know that the Index-L and indexstudents listservs are = for individuals, but the inquiry was regarding what role *ASI* might = take on. Collecting and publishing information about the market, = salaries, etc., or gathering information from each other about what the = market will bear is obviously OK. As for asking a professional trade = assn to set a minimum price for the services offered by its members, = well, I would know some lawyers who would have a big problem with that. = I responded in a spirit of goodwill by sharing information from my = experience. I didn't mean to put anybody on the defensive or imply that = anyone was doing anything wrong. Guess I will go back to lurking :( Cindy Monroe Monroe Knowledge Services www.monroeknows.com phone: (301) 897-2137 fax: (301) 493-4046 ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BED8FF.836A6280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The original statement I was responding = to=20 was--
 
Could ASI investigate forming a set of = professional=20 standards and minimum rates expected for their members.
 
This was an interesting idea, as = was the idea=20 of unionizing and some sort of ASI *expert certification*. I was just = alerting=20 you'all to the fact that some other professionals would definitely not = even=20 consider setting minimum rates, and don't even want their members to = talk about=20 such things.  I know that the Index-L and indexstudents listservs = are for=20 individuals, but the inquiry was regarding what role *ASI* might take = on.=20 Collecting and publishing information about the market, salaries, etc., = or=20 gathering information from each other about what the market will bear is = obviously OK. As for asking a professional trade assn to set a minimum = price for=20 the services offered by its members, well, I would know = some lawyers who=20 would have a big problem with that. 
 
I responded in a spirit of = goodwill by sharing=20 information from my experience. I didn't mean to put anybody on the = defensive or=20 imply that anyone was doing anything wrong. Guess I will go back to = lurking=20 :(
 
Cindy Monroe
Monroe Knowledge = Services
www.monroeknows.com
phone: = (301)=20 897-2137
fax: (301) 493-4046
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