Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9901D" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:26:56 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Subject: Re: Multiple volumes - no vol nos? One idea for problem of "the author claims that the client does not want the pages numbered in such a volume-oriented fashion (3-13, 5-10, etc.)" is to create a code or abbreviation for each volume based on its title. Just a thought. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:26:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: CINDEX or Macrex ***PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THIS MESSAGE*** OK, how about this? Everyone who wishes to can send me an email with the subject of either "CINDEX" or "Macrex" depending on which one you use in your regular indexing work. I'll count 'em up and report back to the list. (Note that I have "anti-spammed" my return address, so you will have to get it from the text below.) I don't plan to read the messages, just count them, so the body text is irrelevant. And for the paranoid among you, I will discard the messages after counting them, and won't use your email address for anything. ***PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THIS MESSAGE*** (Index-l readers do not all need to receive this information.!!!) --->Send your message to larryh@millcomm.com <--- --->put either the word "CINDEX" or the word "Macrex" in the subject<--- Larry Harrison (CINDEX user) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:50:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: FW: FW: quick question From my favorite Anglophile friend. Hope this helps, Rachel! -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > > No, she died as Diana, Princess of Wales. Formerly, she was > Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales (e.g., she got her > name back after the divorce. Draw your own symbolic > conclusions). > > Her Majesty The Queen stripped Diana of the HRH (as is her > right) after the divorce. She offered to restore it > posthumously and the Spencer family stuck their noses in the > air and said "thank you, but no." > > Fergie also lost the HRH after the divorce. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:35:33 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: INDEXING SPEED Carol Roberts wrote: > I am > thereby rewarded for learning to index faster. I would even go so far as to > say that charging by the page *motivates* me to find legit ways to index > faster, e.g., learning the more advanced Cindex techniques; buying OneClick > to augment Cincex (Mac platform, folks). Carol, I use Cindex on the Mac. Could you enlighten me and others about OneClick? Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:31:57 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Speed, New people, Pre-job checklist All, SPEED: I have enjoyed all of the details on indexing speed that people have been sharing lately. I have my first job coming at the end of February (unless the schedule slips AGAIN) and will probably mark/highlight the text prior to entering, although I suspect that I will end up as a "direct inputter" eventually. I feel comfortable doing that, but will fall back on the redundancy during my first jobs so that I know I got everything right. I also have a chronic back ache that acts up with a lot of time at the computer, so being able to sit on the couch would be nice for a little while. NEW PEOPLE: I am a new person (not literally) and talk regularly with new people. We've had some discussions about how to get involved in an apprenticeship/mentoring relationship and have not had much luck figuring it out. I'm beginning to suspect that it's an unlikely scenario for a couple of reasons. 1. The money issue-I can't afford to work for free and the indexer usually can't afford to pay me. I did some sub-contract work for an indexer last year and I felt it was great, but I was paid for it too. My understanding is that it didn't work out great for the indexer, who lost money on that part of the job (a name index) in addition to the time it took to incorporate the work of several sub-contractors into a final product (with different levels of computer and indexing expertise. 2. The time factor-deadlines make for very difficult conditions for learning. The indexer needs to know that it's done right and needs to find extra time to check the work. Very difficult. 3. The distance factor-I'm not very near other indexers and much of the apprentice-like work seems to need some face time. I was, but am no longer interested in an mentoring situation. I feel that I can aid and abet my professional development sufficiently by being active in my local chapter, attending conferences and workshops, and participating on this and other mailing lists, and practicing on books (in my case, textbooks in education and psychology). PRE-JOB CHECKLIST: In someone's post, they mentioned that they check to be sure the pages are all there when they get the proofs. Also that they go through and highlight note numbers that contain indexable material and the note number in the text. I'm wondering if anyone uses or has created a checklist of things to do when the proofs arrive (not like the Index Specifications Checklist in Mulvany's book). This would be initial stuff to do before starting the reading/marking or whatever. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 06:13:10 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: INDEXING SPEED In-Reply-To: <199901211926.LAA26567@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> Ooops, in my original post explaining that I don't mark up, I forgot to say that I would have hubby put down the page ranges of sections, chapters, etc. for me as soon as we'd get the proofs. By doing that immediately after receiving the proofs, it was also a good way of vetting them before starting to work on them. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease to be amused." (unknown) *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:00:20 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex In-Reply-To: <199901212337.SAA11056@mail1.bellsouth.net> I don't think there's any collective wisdom as to which software is the "best." I've played around a little with Macrex and SKY, but I've never actually used anything *but* Cindex (both DOS and Windows versions) for real index production. But I'm also a dedicated WordPerfect user, since 4.2. I can use Word, and often I am required to by a client, but I don't like it much. (And I prefer to drive a Toyota, without claiming that it's the best car for everyone.) So whatever works best for you is the software that *is* best for you. BTW, I was introduced to all the (then) available software a number of years ago at a 'software comparison' workshop in Austin, which was extremely useful. If you can get someone knowledgable to do a session like that for your local ASI chapter, I would recommend it highly.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Barry Rofman |Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:34 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex | | |I got the Student version of Cindex for my training and was assuming I'd |get the regular version when I begin working professionally but nearly |every person on this thread has mentioned Macrex when they talk about |software. Does anyone have experience with both and know how similar |they are? Why does the "collective wisdom" seem to, if not prefer, at |least primarily use, Macrex? | |Rebecca | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 06:51:35 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Breaking into the field In-Reply-To: <199901212234.RAA21160@mail3.bellsouth.net> I don't think the USDA course was in operation back when I started doing this stuff, but if you're the sort of person who's good at self-directed study, I would recommend it -- based on a great many positive opinions I've heard about it. I think you'd find that many of us on this list began by volunteering (or being asked by a friend or colleague) to prepare an index for no pay. In my case, an academic friend had a first book coming out and he asked me for help with the copyediting and indexing. I was a librarian and part-time instructor, and I have a strong autodidactic streak, so I agreed. One thing led to another -- but, fortunately, I wasn't at that time in need of an independent source of income, which meant I was under no pressure to make money with indexing or editing *immediately*.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Brooke Elson |Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 2:59 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Breaking into the field | | |Hello all - |First of all, thank you to all who offered advice/suggestions to my last posting. |I am making inroads, talking to my friends in publishing, and was told today |that I won't be hired without previous indexing experience. I guess this is |the annoying part of trying anything new - you can't do it without |experience (which then begs the question, how do I get the experience?!?!) |I was advised by the publishing house to take a course. I'm considering the |USDA course, since it's cheap, not time-constricting, and it seems like a |bunch of you have taken it. Anyone have thoughts on it? You can post here or |reply to me directly. |Thank you! | |Brooke Elson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 06:44:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Marketing In-Reply-To: <199901212227.RAA16591@mail3.bellsouth.net> |Michael wrote: | |> I received an email from the |> Production Manager of a non-university academic press in response to an |> inquiry I'd made regarding their potential need for freelancers. |> |Michael, does this mean you have discovered a way to market through |e-mail - if so, would you be willing to share this with your most |*humble* "collective wisdom"? | |Also, for those of you who have established web site pages, have you |realized an appreciable amount of new business from it? |-- |Julie Sherman Grayson Actually, I made my inquiry by ordinary snail-mail, since I was sending them some samples of my work. They simply chose to reply by email -- which I approve of, since I don't entirely trust the efficiency of the PO anymore... I know my web site has been visited by editors whom I've contacted, because they've told me so -- but I wouldn't go so far as to say the site itself has resulted in a commission. I regard it as simply one more arrow in my quiver, along with phone calls, a paper brochure, referrals from other editors, etc -- all of which *together* help bring in new and repeat business. Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:41:58 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: quick question In-Reply-To: > I don't think it did, but you could check one of her many bio pages, I'm > sure. I think that the HRH was the only one taken away. As far as I know she is always called 'Diana, Princess of Wales' on news programmes etc. Also, a new =A35 coin has been minted with her portrait, the 'Diana'. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:32:45 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Indexing a word document The Society of Indexers office has received the following enquiry from David de Rox. I'm posting it to Index-L on his behalf as SI doesn't have its own discussion list. I'll forward any replies to him - but please feel free to contact him directly. <<<< Return-Path: Reply-To: "David de Rox" From: "David de Rox" To: Subject: Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:21:32 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Could you please post this inquiry to your membership? 1.- We are working on a large document using (MS Word 7.0/97) whose text will be visibly line numbered in the left margin. 2.- Does anyone know of an extension or add-on for Word which will enable an index to be generated which can reference line numbers as well as page numbers in documents with visible line numbered text? 3.- Since we want to use an automatic indexer, do Cindex and Macrex have the capability 'built-in' to reference line numbers as well as page numbers? 4.- If not, (assuming we can locate such an extension/add-on described above), can Cindex or Macrex work in such a way with the extension/add-on so as to create an index with both line numbered and page numbered references? Your help is greatly appreciated. Please contact me at: <mailto:david1200@hotmail.com>david1200@hotma il.com <<<< Best wishes Liza Weinkove Secretary, Society of Indexers ==================================== Liza Weinkove Freelance Indexer 1 Longham Close Bramhall, Stockport SK7 3NL, United Kingdom Tel: 0161 486 6673; Fax: 0161 488 4889 e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ==================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: Re: schedule slips Thanks Ted and Carol. I was going to hit the sack about an hour ago ... but I'm still up, working on the new set of page proofs. :^/ Ted -- If I showed the client my calendar, I suspect she'd start looking for an indexer with more time! And, after investing so much time on this= project, I have mixed feelings about that possibility. :^/ = Carol -- Nice ... I like that. In fact, I think I'll steal those words! :-) Thanks. BTW, I never thought of recording my phone conversations with the editor.= That's an interesting idea ... but is it legal to record phone conversations? Wouldn't most people be uncomfortable knowing that their words were being recorded??? :^/ Happy indexing! .... Lori Lori Lathrop (LoriLathrop@compuserve.com) Lathrop Media Services, Charlotte, NC Web site -- http://idt.net/~lathro19 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:09:24 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: New people At 06:46 PM 1/21/1999 -0500, Barry Rofman wrote: >As am indexer in training this is a little discouraging though I had >heard it is hard to find a good mentor or apprentice position. Those of >you who feel this way, and anybody else for that matter, what do you >suggest for those of us who do fully intend to "make it over the long >haul" as you've done? How did you break into the field? I've never had a real apprentice, but I have tried several times to farm out smaller portions of jobs (not actual indexing, but typing entries, or marking certain kinds of text, etc.) and had very bad luck. A friend with a master's degree in English could not seem to figure out how to take a page-number sort and check second-pass proofs against it, to be sure no page numbers had changed! This, despite my careful and detailed instructions, and sitting down with her and actually doing the work alongside her. There are times I would pay a ton of money to have another "me" to do what has to be done...or even a good clerical helper who could input in Macrex or check page numbers. But I can't seem to find anybody like that. How did I break in? I was almost "forced" into indexing, when a good editing client was desperate for an indexer and insisted that I could do her project. Indeed, she was right...I did it (back in the days of the shoebox and index cards) and I loved it. I did several more for her, and all of a sudden I had an indexing resume and samples, and I was on my way. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:11:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: Re: schedule slips Thanks to Erin, Michael, Sylvia, Paul, and Do Mi. There's some consolati= on in knowing that others have been in the same boat, rowing madly against a= stream of revisions followed by more revisions followed by still more = revisions. There's also some consolation in knowing that several of your= clients have been reasonable when you informed them that their projects were coming in on top of other clients' projects, which had to take priority. Do Mi - I especially liked your tactful, yet straight-forward approach, BTW, the client is paying me a per page rate (not an hourly rate, which i= n retrospect, I wish I'd charged because the text is extremely dense with indexable terms and concepts - much moreso than any other projects I've done for them). Fortunately, they have already paid me for indexing= two chapters that had to be scrapped. Since then, the editor has been giving me a "heads up" before I've invested a lot of time indexing pages that would be revised again. However, each time I get new page proofs, the editor assures me that they're FINAL ... and I have been gullible enough to believe her (probably because I *wanted* to believe her). A week or two later, o= f course, the editor invariably calls to tell me to stop working on those chapters. Today I received a HUGE set of page proofs (~400 pages), and I dearly = hope they're final. However, after so many sets of revisions, I simply can't = risk being too optimistic. In a way, it's like a game of "bluff" (did yo= u ever = play that when you were a kid?). Part of me is saying I'd better dive in= and = start indexing those chapters ... and part of me is saying, "Whoa! You'v= e = been fooled before, ya know! Hold off!" Unfortunately, since it's such = a big = book (over 1200 pages) I don't dare hold off. :^/ Last nite I dreamed that it was the turn of the century, and I was still indexing this one book! :^/ The "Indexer's Nightmare," eh?!! Ah, well ... thanks again for all the encouraging words. Happy indexing! .... Lori Lori Lathrop (LoriLathrop@compuserve.com) Lathrop Media Services, Charlotte, NC Web site - http://idt.net/~lathro19 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:04:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex At 06:34 PM 1/21/1999 -0500, Barry Rofman wrote: >I got the Student version of Cindex for my training and was assuming I'd >get the regular version when I begin working professionally but nearly >every person on this thread has mentioned Macrex when they talk about >software. Does anyone have experience with both and know how similar >they are? Why does the "collective wisdom" seem to, if not prefer, at >least primarily use, Macrex? I have used both, but because I started with Macrex many years ago and am extremely familiar (and happy) with it, I've stuck to Macrex. The two programs are quite different in appearance and operation; both are excellent choices, IMO. It's just what you are used to, or prefer working with. You'll probably want to get the full-on version of Cindex because you've already started with it. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:04:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Breaking into the field At 03:58 PM 1/21/1999 -0500, Brooke Elson wrote: >I am making inroads, talking to my friends in publishing, and was told today >that I won't be hired without previous indexing experience. I guess this is >the annoying part of trying anything new - you can't do it without >experience (which then begs the question, how do I get the experience?!?!) >I was advised by the publishing house to take a course. I'm considering the >USDA course, since it's cheap, not time-constricting, and it seems like a >bunch of you have taken it. >Anyone have thoughts on it? You can post here or reply to me directly. >Thank you! I haven't taken the course, but many who have, have found it extremely useful. It seems to be highly recommended. Aside from that, do everything you can to gain experience...unpaid at first, if that's what is necessary. Offer to index the garden club cookbook, or the historical society newsletter, or anything else that will produce a decent sample to show. It doesn't matter if you are paid or not...it's a Real Indexing Job! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:28:35 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: thesauruses - how long it takes to construct one, and do you know any insurance thesauruses Hi all, Can anyone give me an idea of how long it takes to construct a thesaurus? Reading through papers from the AusSI conference (1995) I find that two people each took 2 and a half years part-time to construct a thesaurus. This is an impossible time for me to contemplate. Has anyone created a rough-and-ready thesaurus in a much shorter time? And does anyone know of a thesaurus (preferably Australian) on the subject of insurance (or including that subject). Part of me thinks it is much more sensible to buy a standard thesaurus to create one (because of time and cost, not quality)? What do you all think? Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:27:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Rate increases Barbara Roos said: Has anyone here been able to pull off any rate rise at all in the last 10 years? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- Because I tie per page/per entry rates to what I expect to clear on an hourly basis, I have always thought in terms of a minimum hourly fee that I'm willing to accept. My current minimum ($30) is 50% higher that it was when I started in 1991. When I quote an hourly rate to a client, I tell them that I will guarantee that rate for 2 years; then at the end of two years, I increase it to whatever hourly rate I'm currently quoting to new clients. And yes, the page rate has also gone up; but that varies with the project, ranging from $1.75/page for a journal index that actually worked out to substantially more than my hourly minimum, to considerably more for very dense material. In general, however, the page rates have not increased nearly as much as my hourly rate -- mostly because I now work a lot faster than I did in 1991. And yes, I'm of the "no page markup" school. Regards, Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:40:28 -0500 Reply-To: pat.buchanan@sympatico.ca Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Buchanan Organization: Buchanan Indexing and Editing Subject: Re: quick question Rachel: As I understood the situation, Diana did have the HRH title taken away. Her title at the time of her death was Diana, Princess of Wales; it was incorrect to still call her Princess Diana. Patricia > Did the title Princess of Wales get revoked from Diana? I know she was > still allowed to be called Princess, but not HRH. I thought Princess of Wales was taken away from her. Anyone know off the top? None of my > reference books are current enough. > ______________________________ Patricia Buchanan Tel: 613-596-9420 Email: pat.buchanan@sympatico.ca Website: http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat.buchanan/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:28:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Schroeder Subject: Re: New people I recently hired 25 indexers for a large project. The first four weeks were very rough. Resumes were scarce. I was worried that I was not going to find skilled and stable people. The hiring went slow. After that four week period, I had a massive onslaught of incredible resumes. I am happy to report that aside from a new few people, who immediately quit, because it was "too mind-numbing" my staff is fabulous. I have managed to put together a great mixture of both experienced and new indexers that are helping each other. My initial problem was finding indexers with experience, not finding eager interns. (Even with a decent payscale.) This is just to let everyone new to the profession know, if you are patient there are people willing to take on brand new indexers. Kim Schroeder Archive Impact www.archiveimpact.com -----Original Message----- From: Barry Rofman To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:50 PM Subject: Re: New people >As am indexer in training this is a little discouraging though I had >heard it is hard to find a good mentor or apprentice position. Those of >you who feel this way, and anybody else for that matter, what do you >suggest for those of us who do fully intend to "make it over the long >haul" as you've done? How did you break into the field? > >Rebecca Rofman > > Mentoring, apprenticeships etc are not worth >> the aggrevation. It seems that if you have the time to teach someone, you >> could do it yourself with time to spare. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:37:21 +0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Faith Howell Subject: Religious titles I'm interested to know of any publications which assist in the indexing of Christian religious/theological titles. I'd appreciate any references anyone on the list is able to provide. Many thanks, Faith Howell Howell Indexing Services E-mail: howdex@uq.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:44:45 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex Dear Barry, I cannot comment on Cindex because I've never used it. But I have been using Macrex for 10 years and simply love it! The technical support, via Gale Rhodes, is excellent (and she is very patient with technical dummies like myself). The program more than paid for itself with my very first job. I cannot say enough nice things about Macrex. My suggestion would be to arrange for a student version of Macrex and decide for yourself which program best suits you. I'm sure that both Cindex and Macrex are good programs but only you can decide which one might suit you best. Best of luck, Sylvia Coates Barry Rofman wrote: > I got the Student version of Cindex for my training and was assuming I'd > get the regular version when I begin working professionally but nearly > every person on this thread has mentioned Macrex when they talk about > software. Does anyone have experience with both and know how similar > they are? Why does the "collective wisdom" seem to, if not prefer, at > least primarily use, Macrex? > > Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: thesauruses Glenda wrote "Can anyone give me an idea of how long it takes to construct a thesaurus?" I have been able to whip out a rough and ready thesaurus in about 2 to 3 weeks, BUT they have never been complete. Every thesaurus I have ever worked on has been a work-in-progress and changes as the nature of the subject changes. "Part of me thinks it is much more sensible to buy a standard thesaurus to create one (because of time and cost, not quality)? What do you all think?" I wouldn't think you would need to buy one. You can probably search your local library and find several good examples to work from in creating your own. Even if not something specific to your needs you can always 'mine' general ones for ideas. Brian Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:51:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. S. Gangolly" Subject: Re: Indexing a word document In-Reply-To: <199901221633.LAA26148@sarah.albany.edu> > From: "David de Rox" > 1.- We are working on a large document using (MS Word 7.0/97) whose text will > be visibly line numbered in the left margin. > > 2.- Does anyone know of an extension or add-on for Word which will enable an > index to be generated which can reference line numbers as well as page numbers > in documents with visible line numbered text? Over the years, I have used a product called indexicon, that works with MS Word. While MS Wurd is not my cup of tea (neither is Windoze), Indexicon is a fairly good product (You can get the info from www.iconovex.com). I do not think this product looks at line numbers, but it does look at page numbering in Word, ie., it prepares a back-of-the-book index for word documents. It also has a fairly sophisticated way of detecting phrases that are to be indexed. Over the years, I think the company has partially dumped the product, at least from a development perspective. I am now in the process of switching either to SMART retrieval system or the INQUERY retrieval system, both of which have indexing capabilities (both work under unix, but I am not sure if they work under Windoze). Once you install indexicon, you get an indexicon option under the tools menu in MS Word. You can choose how comprehensive you want the index to be. You can also use any lexicon that you may have to index. You can also build (or embellish) your own lexicon as you index a document. I hope the above helps. Jagdish ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jagdish S. Gangolly, Associate Professor| Where is the life we have | State University of New York at Albany | lost in living? | Albany, NY 12222. | Where is the wisdom we have| Phone: 518 442-4949 Fax: 518 442-3944 | lost in knowledge? | e-mail: j.gangolly@albany.edu | Where is the knowledge we | URL:http://www.albany.edu/acc/gangolly | have lost in information?| | -- T.S.Eliot | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rimmer Subject: Re: New people Kim, Thanks for the encourgement. We newbies need it! -----Original Message----- From: Kim Schroeder To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:05 PM Subject: Re: New people >I recently hired 25 indexers for a large project. The first four weeks were >very rough. Resumes were scarce. I was worried that I was not going to >find skilled and stable people. The hiring went slow. After that four week >period, I had a massive onslaught of incredible resumes. I am happy to >report that aside from a new few people, who immediately quit, because it >was "too mind-numbing" my staff is fabulous. I have managed to put >together a great mixture of both experienced and new indexers that are >helping each other. > >My initial problem was finding indexers with experience, not finding eager >interns. (Even with a decent payscale.) > >This is just to let everyone new to the profession know, if you are patient >there are people willing to take on brand new indexers. > > >Kim Schroeder >Archive Impact >www.archiveimpact.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Barry Rofman >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:50 PM >Subject: Re: New people > > >>As am indexer in training this is a little discouraging though I had >>heard it is hard to find a good mentor or apprentice position. Those of >>you who feel this way, and anybody else for that matter, what do you >>suggest for those of us who do fully intend to "make it over the long >>haul" as you've done? How did you break into the field? >> >>Rebecca Rofman >> >> Mentoring, apprenticeships etc are not worth >>> the aggrevation. It seems that if you have the time to teach someone, >you >>> could do it yourself with time to spare. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:05:02 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Diana query Sorry, I have already deleted the posts about whether Diana, Princess of Wales, retained her HRH or not, and can't remember who the enquirer was. But as I am currently indexing a book in which Diana appears, I wonder if the reason for the enquiry was to find out whether to include the HRH in an index entry. I think this is unnecessary even in a case where HRH (or HM) does legitimately form part of the person's title. I index Prince Charles as Charles, Prince of Wales, the Queen as Elizabeth II, Queen, and so on. What does bother me is whether to put Edward, Duke of Kent, or Kent, Edward, Duke of, etc. I'm working on it! Christine ************************************************************ Christine Shuttleworth, Indexing & Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB, UK e-mail: cshuttle@dircon.co.uk **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:12:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Indexing a word document Indexicon has been resurrected, and there is a new version of it available. Go to: http://www.iconovex.com/.idun/index/indexicon97.exe It won't do the line numbering referencing that the original poster was looking for, though. (And just as an aside, I think the jury is probably still out as to whether it's a generally useful tool.) I'd certainly be interested in finding out whether there's some way of including line numbers in a Word embedded index. AFAIK, there's not way of doing so, except perhaps by means of a very elaborate Word macro. John Sullivan > -----Original Message----- > From: J. S. Gangolly [SMTP:gangolly@CSC.ALBANY.EDU] > Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 11:51 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Indexing a word document > > > Over the years, I have used a product called indexicon, that works with MS > Word. While MS Wurd is not my cup of tea (neither is Windoze), Indexicon > is a fairly good product (You can get the info from www.iconovex.com). > > I do not think this product looks at line numbers, but it does look at > page numbering in Word, ie., it prepares a back-of-the-book index for word > documents. It also has a fairly sophisticated way of detecting phrases > that are to be indexed. > > Over the years, I think the company has partially dumped the product, at > least from a development perspective. I am now in the process of switching > either to SMART retrieval system or the INQUERY retrieval system, both of > which have indexing capabilities (both work under unix, but I am not sure > if they work under Windoze). > > Once you install indexicon, you get an indexicon option under the tools > menu in MS Word. You can choose how comprehensive you want the index to > be. You can also use any lexicon that you may have to index. You can also > build (or embellish) your own lexicon as you index a document. > > I hope the above helps. > > Jagdish > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jagdish S. Gangolly, Associate Professor| Where is the life we have | > State University of New York at Albany | lost in living? | > Albany, NY 12222. | Where is the wisdom we have| > Phone: 518 442-4949 Fax: 518 442-3944 | lost in knowledge? | > e-mail: j.gangolly@albany.edu | Where is the knowledge we | > URL:http://www.albany.edu/acc/gangolly | have lost in information?| > | -- T.S.Eliot | > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Breaking into the field In-Reply-To: <199901220509.XAA21925@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I am making inroads, talking to my friends in publishing, and was told today >that I won't be hired without previous indexing experience. I guess this is >the annoying part of trying anything new - you can't do it without >experience (which then begs the question, how do I get the experience?!?!) >I was advised by the publishing house to take a course. I'm considering the >USDA course, since it's cheap, not time-constricting, and it seems like a >bunch of you have taken it. I would recommend the USDA course regardless of the question of gaining experience. You are going to have to acquire some basic indexing skills somehow or other, and that's a good way to do it. As for getting started without experience, I guess it depends on what you call experience. Many new indexers do practice indexes, which they can then send off to editors as samples (along with the resume and cover letter). You can either pick out books to index (whether they already have an index or not) or do volunteer indexes for organizations that are publishing stuff. Just don't pass 'em off as paid work, though. The first index I ever did for pay was for an author who got my name from a friend. She didn't seem to care that I'd never done an index before. I've also made referrals to new indexers who were inexperienced but had taken a course. When editors have gone through their pool of indexers and come up empty, they are sometimes willing to take a chance on a newbie. In fact, I wonder how many of us got started that way. So it isn't true that you *can't* get work without indexing experience. Good luck! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:35:55 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Marketing On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:26:59 -0500 Julie Sherman Grayson writes: > >Also, for those of you who have established web site pages, have you >realized an appreciable amount of new business from it? > I have had my web site up for about a year and used !Register-It! Plus to register my web site with search engines. I don't know that I've gotten any leads from my web site, but I haven't given up on it yet. On the topic of search engines, I've tried looking up "indexer" on a couple of them and usually they give me the ASI site, a few individual indexers (not me), and porn sites (of all things.) Have any of you had better luck? Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing BUILDING A BETTER BOOK! indexer@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:22:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: subheads and indexing speed In-Reply-To: <199901220509.XAA21925@mixcom.mixcom.com> >If you read through the book in the first place, you will know for sure that >you need to start making subheads from the beginning of input. Personally, I >find it faster to add subs all the way through rather than having to go back >and add them later. Flipping through all the pages, reading what it says on >the page, etc., takes time. Cutting out subs is not as time-consuming as >adding them. Cutting out isn't the only time-consuming task here; there's also typing them in in the first place. In my experience, going back and looking up 5 names and adding subs is a lot quicker than typing in subs for 100 names and later removing them for 95. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:42:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: Breaking into the field In a message dated 1/21/99 5:34:34 PM EST, Brooke.Elson@NBC.COM writes: << I'm considering the USDA course, since it's cheap, not time-constricting, and it seems like a bunch of you have taken it. Anyone have thoughts on it? You can post here or reply to me directly. Thank you! >> Brooke, I took the USDA to get started and found it very helpful. When I finished, I also did some practice indexes on my own, using books in my personal library. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:44:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: Religious titles I'm also interested in any responses to this query. If anyone has any suggestions, could you please post them to the list? Thanks, Cheryl Jackson ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Religious titles Author: Faith Howell at internet Date: 1/22/99 11:37 AM I'm interested to know of any publications which assist in the indexing of Christian religious/theological titles. I'd appreciate any references anyone on the list is able to provide. Many thanks, Faith Howell Howell Indexing Services E-mail: howdex@uq.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:03:16 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Speaking of ratre hikes... Michael K. Smith wrote: > > BUT: For what it's worth, not ten minutes ago I received an email from the > Production Manager of a non-university academic press in response to an > inquiry I'd made regarding their potential need for freelancers. This is a > well-known, though not terribly large outfit (specializing in rather arcane, > abstruse stuff), which I don't think I ought to name... But she informed me > that she liked the sample index I'd sent them and that she would be happy to > add me to their "freelancer database" and that they paid indexers $2.00 per > page. Period. Au contraire, Michel. I for one would love to hear who this is, as I am likely to try to get on their list otherwise. Although a beginner, I will not work for $2.00/pg. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:00:15 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Marketing Shirley K Warkentin wrote: > > On the topic of search engines, I've tried looking up "indexer" on a > couple of them and usually they give me the ASI site, a few individual > indexers (not me), and porn sites (of all things.) Have any of you > had better luck? Snap, Excite, and AOL NetFind have included our web site in response to searches for "indexer." Other engines did a little better with more information, such as "site indexer" and "html indexer." Despite having the funniest TV ads, HotBot has delivered many poor souls to our web site for no apparent reason (based on the keywords they were searching for, such as "microsoft employees," "power oregon," and "learn C on the mac"). For more information on search engines, see the short article "Why Create an Index?" (http://www.html-indexer.com/WhyIndex.htm). --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:57:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: line numbering Be very careful about using the line numbering - the lines do NOT retain their numbering if the document changes in any way. Added text will change the numbering. Printing the document from a different machine with a different target printer selected will completely repaginate the document and the line numbers as well. Not having the same fonts installed with repaginate, rebreak lines, and change the line numbering. I do not know of any tool that will index to the line numbers. What I would do if I were you would perhaps be to investigate whether FrameMaker, which is much more powerful than Word, might be able to do this for you. Frame is built for large documents with complex numbering schemes, and has much more programming capability. Jan Wright +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:15:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: subheads and indexing speed At 11:22 AM 1/22/99 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: > >Cutting out isn't the only time-consuming task here; there's also typing >them in in the first place. In my experience, going back and looking up 5 >names and adding subs is a lot quicker than typing in subs for 100 names >and later removing them for 95. > > BUT my point was if you have read the book first, you will know what names to add subs to or not in the first place, because you are very familiar with the material. Because you are familiar with the material, you won't have to go to back and add subs AND you won't have added subs that you have to remove later, either. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:33:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Re: subheads and indexing speed -Reply Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: =20 BUT my point was if you have read the book first, you will know what names = to add subs to or not in the first place, because you are very familiar = with the material. Because you are familiar with the material, you won't = have to go back and add subs AND you won't have added subs that you have = to remove later, either. This is assuming that you have received the whole book before you start = working. It's impossible to do this when you are getting the book in bits = and pieces, not even in page order, as you go along, and you haven't even = received all of the pages a few days before the index is due. This is the = life of an in-house indexer. Right now I am waiting for about 20 pages to = come in, the index is due to the editor on Tuesday, I have very little = idea what might be covered in these pages, and because I have a tight line = restriction, I am already way over and have to cut many lines--but how do = you cut when you don't know what else you're going to need to add? I = often add a word or two to the page field, hidden from printing by curly = brackets (I use Cindex), so that if I suddenly find a certain subject has = fourteen page references, I can go back in and add the subheads without = having to go back through 500+ pages of text. Of course, with the space = restrictions, I sometimes have to cut anyway and wind up with long strings = of page numbers. But the editor wants all of these things indexed. This = is an annual encyclopedia yearbook that has to more-or-less follow the = pattern of all the previous years, too, so I spend a lot of time looking = up how certain topics were covered (and phrased) last year and the year = before. But it's almost over for this year...another few days and I can = start going home before 9 pm again! Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:39:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Odyssey Quest Consulting Subject: Re: New people I would like to say thank you to Kim and to Barbara for their encouraging words. I live all the way over in Athens, Greece and would like to hear from anyone who would be willing to mentor someone really "offsite". I a= m currently enrolled in the USDA course. Susan Rance suzyq@hol.gr -----Original Message----- From: Rimmer To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: =D0=E1=F1=E1=F3=EA=E5=F5=DE, =C9=E1=ED=EF=F5=E1=F1=DF=EF=F5 22, 199= 9 12:08 PM Subject: Re: New people >Kim, Thanks for the encourgement. We newbies need it! >-----Original Message----- >From: Kim Schroeder >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:05 PM >Subject: Re: New people > > >>I recently hired 25 indexers for a large project. The first four weeks >were >>very rough. Resumes were scarce. I was worried that I was not going t= o >>find skilled and stable people. The hiring went slow. After that four >week >>period, I had a massive onslaught of incredible resumes. I am happy to >>report that aside from a new few people, who immediately quit, because = it >>was "too mind-numbing" my staff is fabulous. I have managed to put >>together a great mixture of both experienced and new indexers that are >>helping each other. >> >>My initial problem was finding indexers with experience, not finding ea= ger >>interns. (Even with a decent payscale.) >> >>This is just to let everyone new to the profession know, if you are patient >>there are people willing to take on brand new indexers. >> >> >>Kim Schroeder >>Archive Impact >>www.archiveimpact.com >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Barry Rofman >>To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >>Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:50 PM >>Subject: Re: New people >> >> >>>As am indexer in training this is a little discouraging though I had >>>heard it is hard to find a good mentor or apprentice position. Those o= f >>>you who feel this way, and anybody else for that matter, what do you >>>suggest for those of us who do fully intend to "make it over the long >>>haul" as you've done? How did you break into the field? >>> >>>Rebecca Rofman >>> >>> Mentoring, apprenticeships etc are not worth >>>> the aggrevation. It seems that if you have the time to teach someon= e, >>you >>>> could do it yourself with time to spare. >>> >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:42:49 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sven Wair Subject: Re: Religious titles Faith Howell wrote: > I'm interested to know of any publications which assist in the indexing of > Christian religious/theological titles. > > I'd appreciate any references anyone on the list is able to provide. Sheffield Academic Press have published an excellent guide: David J.A. Clines, *The Sheffield Manual for Authors and Editors in Biblical Studies* ISBN 1-85075-727-5 It covers absolutely everything relevant to the subject. It also highlights the differences between Sheffield's house style and that of The Society of Biblical Literature (Missoula, MT and Philadelphia). It mentions that SBL occasionally publishes its style guide in its *Journal of Biblical Literature* and it is also in the Scholars Press *Handbook for Editors* I hope that this is of some use. Sven M. Wair 17, Cedars Road, Colchester, Essex, CO2 7BS, UK. Fax & Tel: 01206 563 824 email: svwa@globalnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:07:01 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Another perspective on subheads All - There might be another possible advantage to being a bit flexible in entering tentative subheads. It seems to me that being too highly selective in making initial entries, and filtering them too narrowly, removes the possbility of more flexible subsequent editing and restucturing. After all, you can't edit, rearrange, or restructure something that you haven't entered. And I often can't anticipate up front exactly which subheadings (or group of related subheadings) will be significant as the index develops and I become more deeply involved with the text. It's a judgment call, but I prefer to err a bit more on the side of making the subentries, and then having the option of restructuring and/or deleting them in the editing pass. For those who tend to overindex this is a slippery slope, but as I said, it's a judgment call. As James Thurber once observed: 'It is as bad to lean over too far backward as it is to fall flat on your face." In some fairly large indexes I have created using CINDEX (bless it!), when doing first-pass editing on the completed index I have used the "FIND/ALL" commands to group together subheads that contain similar, possibly-useful words or phrases. I sometimes discover that there are enough substantive subs scattered about to warrant bringing them together under their own main heading, with appropriate x-refs if necessary. The CINDEX "FIND" command is wonderful for ferreting out these unsuspected relationships (I am certain that MACREX can do the same thing...). This technique enables me to weave a tighter tapestry without the penalty of going back to the text, or having to key in more entries. Just a thought. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Religious titles Faith,=20 There really isn't anything that I know about (like some of the great indexing topic-related handbooks put out by ASI and SI) that discusses specifically how to index religion and theology. I, too, would like to see something along those lines. The following article might be of conceptual use: AUTHOR: Fennewald, Joseph.; Moylan, Mary Elizabeth.=20 TITLE: Preparing an index guide for CPLI CD-ROM. (Catholic=20 periodical and literature index) SOURCE: Catholic Library World v. 67 (June '97) p. 29-33 =20 Here are some print materials that I use occasionally to verify terms and expand concepts, thereby making sure that all the bases are covered, so to speak: The New Catholic Encyclopedia (there is an old version - 1913- of the Catholic Encyclopedia online) The Oxford Companion to the Bible (Metzger & Coogan, eds.) The Oxford Dictionary of Popes (Kelly) The Oxford Dictionary of Saints (Farmer) Pocket Catholic Dictionary (Hardon) Other possibilities include: Concise Dictionary of Christian Theology (Erickson) Dictionary of Theological Terms (2nd ed.)=20 Encyclopedia of Theology: the concise Sacramentum mundi Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology=20 A Handbook of Theological Terms (Harvey)=20 The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (3rd ed.) Who's Who in the Bible (Penguin) At 11:37 AM 1/22/99 +0600, Faith Howell wrote: >I'm interested to know of any publications which assist in the indexing of >Christian religious/theological titles. > >I'd appreciate any references anyone on the list is able to provide. > >Many thanks, > >Faith Howell ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:56:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Marketing In-Reply-To: <199901221739.MAA15132@mail2.bellsouth.net> Hmmm. You got me curious, so I went to some search engines and typed in . I found both direct listings (my site) and/or indirect listings (sites which included *direct links* to my site) at Alta Vista (my favorite search site), HotBot, Excite, and Lycos. It wasn't in WebCrawler -- which is tiny and very outdated. And I've never used any method to specifically add my site to any of these engines, so it must have been picked up by routine spider-sweeps.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. |I have had my web site up for about a year and used !Register-It! Plus to |register my web site with search engines. I don't know that I've gotten |any leads from my web site, but I haven't given up on it yet. | |On the topic of search engines, I've tried looking up "indexer" on a |couple of them and usually they give me the ASI site, a few individual |indexers (not me), and porn sites (of all things.) Have any of you had |better luck? | |Shirley Warkentin |Cornerstone Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:11:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita Levy Subject: Warning about Brookline Books If anyone ever asks you to do an index for Brookline Books, you will have great, great difficulty in collecting from the owner. I wish I had been warned before taking on a project for them. If there are other companies like this out there, it would be very helpful to share the information. Thanks. Anita Levy Space Coast Indexers 1101 S. Atlantic Avenue #401 Cocoa Beach FL 32931 scndx@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:33:06 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: thesauruses - how long it takes to construct one, The message <199901221634.QAA25296@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from Jon & Glenda contains these words: > Can anyone give me an idea of how long it takes to construct a thesaurus? > Reading through papers from the AusSI conference (1995) I find that two > people each took 2 and a half years part-time to construct a thesaurus. This > is an impossible time for me to contemplate. Has anyone created a > rough-and-ready thesaurus in a much shorter time? Yes, as part of my long-ago librarianship studies. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but I'm certain the time could be measured in weeks rather than years. That was a thesaurus for a fairly narrow subject (folk music), for which I already knew much of the vocabulary and structure. If you have to start from scratch with a completely unfamiliar topic, or a more wide-ranging one, it would probably take longer. But 2.5 years? I'm left wondering how many hours per week/month "part-time" actually means in that context! -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:54:50 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: CINDEX or Macrex Some astute indexer recently said: >Your options are too sparse. Hi, I am, of course, getting program names other than CINDEX or Macrex, and I will file and report them appropriately. :-D Larry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:58:45 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: thesauruses - how long it takes to construct one, FWIW, the thesaurus we use for Minnesota Statutes took me a year to construct, working about a quarter to half-time. I borrowed structure, if not terms, from other thesauri whenever I could. The most time-consuming thing about it was the need to coordinate the structures of two existing indexes, one for state statutes and one for administrative rules. The scope of this thesaurus is everything on earth that might conceivably need to be regulated. It is never finished, since the legislature comes up with new notions, and changes the names for old ones, all the time. It's even more fun when the statute gives an idea one name and, much later, the executive branch agency's rules, which are designed to implement the law, call it something else. Naturally, this happens _after_ the statutes index has gone to press. Anybody else got horror stories of ongoing thesaurus maintenance? -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 651-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:41:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: thesauruses - how long it takes to construct one, and do you know any insurance thesauruses >Can anyone give me an idea of how long it takes to construct a thesaurus? > The amount of time needed to construct a thesaurus varies considerably according to the number of words you need to include and the necessity of having the terminology verified by subject specialists. Thesauri reflect world views and the more people you need to consult, the longer it will take to harmonize the results. If you are going to be using this thesaurus, rather than just preparing it for someone else, then there is no reason why you cannot start with a small word core (quick, but hopefully not too dirty) and then add to the thesaurus as you go along. The research for word meaning always takes a long time and you will find that as you actually use the vocabulary you may have to modify the structure. Thus the construction of the thesaurus is strung out over time, but you don't have to wait for the end in order to start indexing (if that is the purpose of it). Getting it all as right as possible and as complete as possible before you start will require considerable time. Full scale, comprehensive thesaurus projects are often measured in years. Good luck, Christine **************************************************************************** ******* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue QC H9X 3L9 (514) 457-6610, loc 470; fax: (514) 457-4730 **************************************************************************** ******** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:41:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ruth V Laningham Subject: Thesauri For a thesaurus of insurance terms, you might try contacting Robert Cunnew at the Chartered Insurance Institute in London, UK. Sorry, I don't have his email address, but he posts frequently on the AUTOCAT library cataloging and authority electronic discussion list. I don't know the AUTOCAT address either off the top of my head, but you should be able to get it pretty easily. I can't imagine constructing a decent thesaurus in a matter of weeks. The last update I did for the U.S. General Accounting Office -- a package of 350+ terms on the subject of government contracting and the bid protest process -- took almost a year! Ruth Van Laningham laninghamr.oimc@gao.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:57:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maria Coughlin Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Apprenticeships, Assistants In-Reply-To: <199901220509.WAA29399@indexing.com> In contrast to some of the messages posted on the subject of assistants, etc., I have had a very positive experience training indexers. In fact, it gives me a lot of pleasure to see so many of my "trainees" go on to successful indexing careers on their own. The training models I've used include: trainees who now work full-time in my office as associate indexers; trainees who come in from out of state for an introductory (1-week) session, then return home with the opportunity for long-distance mentoring; trainees whom I trained almost completely through distance learning; and assistants who want only part-time mindless work (so we give them vetting, mark-up, logging in, or author indexes to do). Generally, I start wannabes by having them read Nancy Mulvany's book. Next, we give them an indexing test that we've devised. Scoring is based on professed experience of the tested person (we score "experienced" indexers and FDA students much more strictly than we score novices). If they do reasonably well on the test and they're still gung-ho, I train them to use either Cindex or Skyindex (I don't know Macrex) -- and they must buy their own licensed copies if they plan to work outside my office. Once the software is conquered, I give them text I've marked, and they type entries from it. At first, I edit these indexes, but as the trainee advances, I challenge him/her to edit the index before returning it to me for my final approval. I am not above inserting some booby-traps in the marked-up pages to test how alert they are. Trainees who are fast, accurate, thoughtful, and not afraid to correct my mistakes are then given a chance to do an entire index solo. I try to give them a short & easy text or a very straightforward project (e.g., an index of drugs) because I do have to go behind them and check what they've done, and I don't want them working on something I couldn't "fix" quickly if I had to. Obviously, there are several points in this process where we could amicably part company. If the person perseveres, I try to remain available to answer questions and solve problems. I also make an effort to instill my standards into the trainee, but I also recognize that there are different legitimate approaches to any given text, so I attempt to let each trainee develop a personal style that he/she can be comfortable with. (Confession here: although I say "I" and "me," as my indexing business has expanded, I've had to turn over lots of training and mentoring functions to my in-house assistants. So I'm grandmothered in: I trained X, X trains Y, etc.) How has this worked? Maybe some of my trainees can answer from their perspective, but from my perspective it has been a rewarding experience. I've met some truly brilliant people, many of whom I count as friends, and I have avoided being lonely in my work, since I have a circle of like-minded persons with whom I can schmooze. With only a few notable spectacularly unsuccessful experiences, in my 16 years of indexing I have taken on nearly 20 trainees. Six of them currently work as my associates at Editorial Services. Each of my associates elects a couple "preferred areas of expertise" (history, journalism, economics, art, automobile repair, pharmacology, etc.), and we try to schedule them on books in their areas. One associate works for us very regularly, although she lives in Youngstown Ohio and we're in Annapolis MD. In this era of e-mail and FedEx, a good indexer shouldn't have to be idle. I also try to shunt overflow work to my associates who have gone into independent practice -- because I know they're well-trained and up to the job. Sometimes I've let a client go with an indexer who's departing, because it's only fair to let her keep a client that she won over for Editorial Services or because her area of expertise fits the client's publications better than anyone else's does. (Note: I've had to accept that good people are also ambitious people. It's inevitable that they want to fly the coop. That's the nature of successful learning. It doesn't mean I'm not hurt, angry, and sad when they go: in my most adolescent moments, I try to remind myself that that's the price of successful teaching.) This process isn't perfect, and I haven't always been happy with it. Sometimes my trainees are vociferously unhappy, too. I've learned to challenge them: I'll listen to their problems if they also are willing to suggest solutions. And sometimes the solutions are blow-your-socks-off clever... I try to pay my in-house associates a fair wage, which right now is ranging from $12 to $27 per hour. I also fund pensions for qualifying employees and I contribute $200 a year toward each employee's health insurance premiums. (We have group coverage.) I try to pay myself no more than my most highly paid employee (sometimes I cheat). The bottom line: good indexers usually turn out to be good people. I *like* them. Editorial Services makes a modest annual profit, and sometimes we have some fun. If I didn't think that was a fairly nice life, I'd do something else. I'm really sorry for indexers who have found mentoring/training/apprenticing to be a negative experience. Somewhere in what I do there is a secret to successful trainer/trainee relationships, and I suspect it's that I'm always very careful to surround myself with people who are lots smarter than I am. (Really.) Maria Coughlin (who wrote this instead of working on an incredibly boring book) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:01:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: thesauruses - how long it takes to construct one, and do you know any insurance thesauruses In-Reply-To: <000001be45bf$ad3a45e0$b5cf23cb@pentium> Hi, From past experience I'd tend to agree with the other writers who spent several weeks/months on developing a new thesaurus. I'd also suggest you take a look at the: "Guidelines for the Construction, Format, and Management of Monolingual Thesauri" [ANSI/NISO Z39.19-1993] Below is a relevant section from the standard -- hope it helps. Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver, BC mss@interchange.ubc.ca 8. Thesaurus Construction 8.1. Avoidance of Duplicate Work The compiler should ascertain, through reference to one of the clearinghouses listed in Appendix D, whether an existing thesaurus covers the same or an overlapping domain of knowledge. Complete duplication of subject coverage is rare, but access to one or more thesauri in related fields can frequently serve as a useful starting point. For example, a thesaurus developer in the field of malpractice law should begin by consulting existing thesauri in medicine and law, which will surely contain many of the terms and relationships required for the more specialized, interdisciplinary thesaurus. 8.2. Determination of Structure and Display Format If possible, the form of the thesaurus (e.g., flat, generic structure, hierarchical display, or graphic display) should be decided before terms are collected and considered as candidates for inclusion. As demonstrated in section 6, the display format of the thesaurus affects the types of cross-references and relationship indicators that are provided. For example, if a tree structure with classification notation is adopted, the thesaurus may not include BT/ NT references. The format should therefore be selected before relationships among terms are constructed. (Although it is possible to convert one thesaurus display format to another, one must begin with consistent coding of relationships in a single system.) 8.3. Methods Three initial approaches to thesaurus construction are 8.3.1. The Committee Approach Experts in the subject domain of the thesaurus draw up a list of the key terms in the field and indicate the relationships among them, with assistance from experts in thesaurus design. 8.3.2. The Empirical Approach a) The deductive method. Terms are extracted from documents (by humans or computers; see section 8.4 for a discussion of machine assistance), optionally during a preliminary stage of indexing, but no attempt is made to control the vocabulary, nor to determine relationships between terms, until a sufficient number of terms has been collected. All terms are then reviewed by a group of experts, preferably consisting of both information and subject specialists. They should first identify terms that represent the broadest classes, and then allocate remaining terms to these classes on the basis of their logical relationships, so that the hierarchies tend to be established on a broader-to-narrower basis. Vocabulary control should be applied at the stage where hierarchies are established, following the principles described in sections 3 and 4. b) The inductive method. New terms are selected for potential inclusion in the thesaurus as they are encountered in documents. Vocabulary control is applied from the outset. Each term, as it is admitted, is designated as a member of one or more broader classes that are constructed on an ad hoc basis at an early stage. The thesaurus is therefore established on a narrower-to-broader term basis. Thesaurus construction is regarded from the outset as a continuous operation. Assistance from subject experts is strongly recommended; these experts may serve as members of a formal editorial board or committee. 8.3.3. Combination of Methods In practice, more than one of these approaches is likely to be employed at one stage or another during the construction of a thesaurus. For example, hierarchies of terms that were first established inductively may later be examined from a deductive viewpoint. Both techniques are essentially empirical, and it should be accepted from the outset that some decisions regarding the terms and their interrelationships that were made during the early stages of compilation may have to be revised as further experience is gained. The compilers should check terms and hierarchies frequently to ensure consistent application of principles in such procedures as the construction of inter-term relationships and the splitting of compound terms. On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Jon & Glenda wrote: > Hi all, > > Can anyone give me an idea of how long it takes to construct a thesaurus? > > Reading through papers from the AusSI conference (1995) I find that two > people each took 2 and a half years part-time to construct a thesaurus. This > is an impossible time for me to contemplate. Has anyone created a > rough-and-ready thesaurus in a much shorter time? > > And does anyone know of a thesaurus (preferably Australian) on the subject > of insurance (or including that subject). > > Part of me thinks it is much more sensible to buy a standard thesaurus to > create one (because of time and cost, not quality)? What do you all think? > > Glenda. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:31:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: copyediting question Well, Index-L seems to be down, either that or everyone's asleep. Meanwhile, for those of you who CE, about how many pages per hour can you do? Obviously there must be a range depending on the material, and on how much editing is needed. As this was my first CE job in 10 years I think I was really slow. Had to look up a lot of things that if I were doing it a lot I'd just know. So I don't want to charge actual hours but rather, what a reasonably experienced copyeditor would charge. This book was 410 ms pages, and actual hours was about 60, which is very excessive, even allowing for the fact that it was wildly inconsistent, had many factual errors, and millions, maybe even billions, of grammar and punctuation errors. Plus there was a lot of typsetters marking up to do. I'm figuring I actually only managed maybe 6 pages an hour. Does that seem really slow? Sorry to take up the time of all you non-CEers. If I take even one more CE job then I'll sub to Copyedit-L and bug them instead. I promise. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 4192176 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:55:26 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita Levy Subject: Warning retraction and apology Several days ago I sent a warning about a company that has not paid my company for an index. Please understand that the warning was based only on my isolated experience. It was not meant to reflect on their business practices in other circumstances, or indeed, even on their dealing with other indexing companies. I apologize for letting my exasperation overtake my judgment. Thank you Anita Levy Space Coast Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:56:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: schedule slips In-Reply-To: <199901230505.XAA03098@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Carol -- Nice ... I like that. In fact, I think I'll steal those words! >:-) Thanks. >BTW, I never thought of recording my phone conversations with the editor.= > >That's an interesting idea ... but is it legal to record phone >conversations? >Wouldn't most people be uncomfortable knowing that their words were >being recorded??? :^/ I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to just think out loud for a moment. My guess is that it wouldn't be illegal so long as you're not using the tape to defraud. If you're just using it so you can have a record of what was said, I should think that would be legal. I would recommend telling anyone you're going to record before you do it. If you tell the editor you're going to tape the conversation simply because you need that kind of a record, that might even (a) get her to be more on the ball or (b) switch to e-mail. I think it really is a good business practice to have everything in writing or as close to that as possible. I don't do that with well-established clients, but I sure do it with new clients or ones who've demonstrated a "poor memory" in the past. I used to work as a claims adjuster for an insurance company, and I had to record people's accident descriptions over the phone. Some of those people were our customers and some weren't (e.g., passengers in the car), but almost all allowed me to tape their descriptions. I was required to tell them they were being recorded and to get (on tape) their permission to be recorded. I don't know whether that was a legal requirement (in New York State) or simply company policy. However, no one acted as if they minded being recorded. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:39:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: OneClick (was: INDEXING SPEED) In-Reply-To: <199901230505.XAA03098@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I use Cindex on the Mac. Could you enlighten me and others about OneClick? OneClick is a nifty little program for Macs that allows you to write macros. You can use it with any other program, but mostly I use it with Cindex. One of the things I frequently have to do is doublepost titles of works, e.g., Amores (Ovid), 146-47n.41 Amores, 146-47n.41 Using OneClick, I wrote a macro that allows me to key in the Ovid entry and sub and then, with one click, input the Amores entry. Other macros I've written allow me to strip out a subentry; italicize a line in a given field; etc. In other words, you can use it for any repetitive task that goes beyond abbreviations. When I bought it (maybe a year ago), it was $60 I think. I'm afraid I can't find the Web site just now, but you should be able to find it by doing a search for OneClick. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:07:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: subheads and indexing speed In-Reply-To: <199901230505.XAA03098@mixcom.mixcom.com> >BUT my point was if you have read the book first, you will know what names >to add subs to or not in the first place, because you are very familiar with >the material. Because you are familiar with the material, you won't have to >go to back and add subs AND you won't have added subs that you have to >remove later, either. I used to read the book beforehand. But a longtime indexer convinced me, in a workshop she gave to my ASI chapter, not to do that. She had a different approach, which still involves determining ahead of time what the main threads are in the book. Some indexers read the book first and some don't (I always advise new indexers to do so). My comments about subheads and indexing speed will be more relevant to those who don't. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:16:41 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Kells Subject: marketing & web sites I mounted my professional web site about 4 years ago. (Has it really been that long?) I've kept stats on hits & unique addresses that visit my site, and after the first year or so I've averaged between 1500-2000 total hits a month (with a monthly average of 100-200 unique addresses). I have no CLUE why that many folks are accessing my site or what terms they type in search engines. D'ya think that many people are really interested in indexing? I have my doubts about that. 8-) I want to start out by saying that even if my site didn't attract any new clients, I'd maintain it. Look at the number of folks who've at least been introduced to the idea of professional indexing. Even if they just say "gee, I thought computers did indexing" and hit their Back button. '-) Obviously, not everyone feels the need to have a web site and I certainly don't think anyone, including me, NEEDS one. Look at the hundreds of successful indexers who don't have web sites! I'd estimate that probably half a dozen of my clients found me via my site (by going to search engines and typing in "indexer" or "indexing") and those contacts have resulted in total income of about $10,000-$15,000 (over 3ish years). One of those is my favorite client who sends me cool projects (fire fighting instruction manuals) every couple of months. So it feels worth it to me. (Someday I'll go through my little phone forms and get exact stats on how clients get my name and which marketing efforts are most worth it.) The downfall of having my web site is that the majority of e-mail generated by folks browsing my site are from small operations wanting their publications indexed by a professional. I do get to educate them a bit, but they usually kinda choke when they hear professional indexing rates. I also get tons of mail from people interested in indexing as a career. I invest much more time in responding to queries of potential indexers than I do to publishers or editors. Not to mention the misc notes from people who don't even read the info: an author sent me his resume & asked if I would contact him so he could write for me. 8-} I've seen numerous other notes from folks who've asked questions completely unrelated to indexing or even publishing. Guess that's the trade-off. Hope this info helps. -Kari ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Kari Kells I n d e x W e s t indexwest@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~indexwest/ P.O. Box 2748 Vashon Island, WA 98070 206-567-5696 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:50:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Re: that $2 offer Dan wrote: "...not ten minutes ago I received an email from the > Production Manager of a non-university academic press in response to an > inquiry I'd made regarding their potential need for freelancers. ..... she informed me > that she liked the sample index I'd sent them and that she would be happy to > add me to their "freelancer database" and that they paid indexers $2.00 per > page.............Although a beginner, I will not work for $2.00/pg." Good for you, Dan ! Many of us received that "invitation" and I think it takes courage for beginners to turn down work. But that rate is just not an acceptable publisher's rate for what is described, and probably not realistic for any established freelance indexer. Barbara Stroup ********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:17:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita York Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex That brings to mind a question I'd like to put out to the list. What word processor do people use with their indexing software? I'm getting ready to buy one, and thus far have only used the ones that come with the various Windows programs. I realize everyone probably has their own favorites, just wanted to hear what you all have to say. Thanks. Anita -----Original Message----- From: Michael K. Smith To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 9:35 AM Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex >I don't think there's any collective wisdom as to which software is the >"best." I've played around a little with Macrex and SKY, but I've never >actually used anything *but* Cindex (both DOS and Windows versions) for real >index production. But I'm also a dedicated WordPerfect user, since 4.2. I >can use Word, and often I am required to by a client, but I don't like it >much. (And I prefer to drive a Toyota, without claiming that it's the best >car for everyone.) So whatever works best for you is the software that *is* >best for you. > >BTW, I was introduced to all the (then) available software a number of years >ago at a 'software comparison' workshop in Austin, which was extremely >useful. If you can get someone knowledgable to do a session like that for >your local ASI chapter, I would recommend it highly.... > >Mike > >Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services >mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 >http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or >the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the >first five minutes of conversation. > > >|-----Original Message----- >|From: Indexer's Discussion Group >|[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Barry Rofman >|Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:34 PM >|To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >|Subject: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex >| >| >|I got the Student version of Cindex for my training and was assuming I'd >|get the regular version when I begin working professionally but nearly >|every person on this thread has mentioned Macrex when they talk about >|software. Does anyone have experience with both and know how similar >|they are? Why does the "collective wisdom" seem to, if not prefer, at >|least primarily use, Macrex? >| >|Rebecca >| > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:07:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: schedule slips In-Reply-To: <199901220011_MC2-6797-716B@compuserve.com> Schedule slips, schedule slips, hmmm . . . Oh Ah, this is where I came in!! I'm still referred to by some of you folks as the one with the Rabbi Book. My first paid index, that was supposed to come to me in April, then slipped to June, then slipped some more, with several warnings from me that I was going on vac. in October, and guess when the manuscript arrives? The day before my vac. It got slipped two more weeks, needless to say. Remember I kept asking you all, is it always like this??? You all mostly said, Well, yes. Yes it is. I find that nowadays I prefer not to schedule work out in advance, but instead, most of my clients will call with their project ready to send out and ask if I can take it or not, at that moment. Saves a lot of wear and tear on my fingernails. So far, even when I turn them away repeatedly, they still call again. I think it actually looks good when I say I have too much work. They think I'm really popular. Most of them don't know I index only part time, and only take one or two projects a month, and I have one client who keeps me very busy and so gets first dibs on my time. Anyway, I don't seem to have to deal with schedule slippage so much anymore. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 4192176 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:51:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Diana query In-Reply-To: <01be4620$fc5fff00$LocalHost@lizard> Christine wrote: >as I am currently indexing a book in which Diana appears, I wonder if the >reason for the enquiry was to find out whether to include the HRH in an >index entry. That was me. No, it was for this copyediting job I'm doing. This book is unbelievably badly written, with millions of inconsistencies, including referring to Diana as Princess Diana, HRH Diana, Princess Diana of Wales, etc. I was pretty sure it was now supposed to be Diana, Princess of Wales (which btw is how I would index her), but as I had no current reference I snuck in and borrowed the Collective Wisdom. You all came through with flying colors! Thanks! I've now made all refs to her as Diana, Princess of Wales. There are so many other errors, I'm starting to worry about the ones I don't catch because I don't know Everything. Thanks again, and again, Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 4192176 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:22:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Fw: MESH (fwd) Medical indexers should be interested in the following message, which I'm forwarding from HLIB-NW, the mailing list for health sciences libraries in the Pacific Northwest. This version of MeSH [Medical Subject Headings] contains significantly more information than is available in other online versions. Carolyn Weaver ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ >A browser of MeSH is now available from the MeSH home page, >www.nlm.nih.gov/mesh. It is designed to present, in hypertext, virtually >all of the information contained in MeSH records. It should be of >interest to indexers, catalogers, reference librarians, and others >concerned with controlled terminology. It is not designed to link to a >search engine, such as PubMed or Internet Grateful Med. > >For those interested in providing a link to the browser, I would point out >that we have chosen to have it appear in a separate window, as it does not >provide navigation to other sites within NLM. I would recommend that >others do the same if making a link. Frequent users might choose to >bookmark the browser directly. > >The browser is a product of the Indexing Initiative. Credit for making it >all work goes to Florence Chang. Responsibility for the content rests >with me. > >Stuart Nelson [NELSONS@mail.nlm.nih.gov] > >forwarded by >Maryanne Blake Outreach Coordinator >National Network of Libraries of Medicine Pacific Northwest Region >University of Washington >Box 357155 1-800-338-7657 >Seattle, Washington 98195-7155 (206) 543-2469 FAX > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:42:15 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Owens Subject: Re: technical terms Dear Friends, I am often ambivalent about indexing a technical term that does not appear in the text. One of my subject areas is psychology. I might, for example, read how one person sees characteristics in another person that are really part of his/her own personality. I will know this to be 'projection'. But if that actual term is not used in the text should I index it? Yes I should - otherwise somebody looking for information on this subject might well miss it. No, I shouldn't - because somebody who does not know what projection means might be confused when he/she looks up the location and finds no mention of the term. No, I shouldn't - because semantics is a tricky problem in this area. So what I consider to be projection, others (including the author) might not. Any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated. Regards Richard ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 08:45:30 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Moira Subject: The Indexer's Tale - SI annual conference Join the pilgrimage, become a part of THE INDEXER'S TALE {British} Society of Indexers annual conference 1999 will be held in Canterbury, Kent 16 to 18 July 1999. Details and booking form can be found on the Society's web page www.socind.demon.co.uk/conf1999 Move over Geoffrey Chaucer! The indexers are coming! Moira Greenhalgh SI Conference Coordinator moiracg@dialin.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:08:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Another perspective on subheads Bob wrote: << There might be another possible advantage to being a bit flexible in entering tentative subheads. It seems to me that being too highly selective in making initial entries, and filtering them too narrowly, removes the possbility of more flexible subsequent editing and restucturing....I often can't anticipate up front exactly which subheadings (or group of related subheadings) will be significant as the index develops and I become more deeply involved with the text. .... The CINDEX "FIND" command is wonderful for ferreting out these unsuspected relationships (I am certain that MACREX can do the same thing...). This technique enables me to weave a tighter tapestry without the penalty of going back to the text, or having to key in more entries. >> Good point, Bob--I do similar things (and yes, Macrex does it too--group mode). Usually for me this applies in complex scholarly books. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:57:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: subheads and indexing speed Carol wrote: << In my experience, going back and looking up 5 names and adding subs is a lot quicker than typing in subs for 100 names and later removing them for 95. >> Also, the more experience you have, the easier it is to judge as you go along which topics might need to be broken down. I tend to put in subs if I think I might possibly need them, because it does feel slow to go back and make those decisions--but I don't do it indiscriminately. I pay attention to where that topic fits into the main topics of the book, and that narrows it down. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:22:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Apprenticeships, Assistants Maria Hi, I'm Patrick. I have a question about your post. You mentioned that indexers that you take on as apprentices come to MD for a week. So, coming to MD. is a mandatory requirement? Am I reading that correctly? Also, are you accepting any more apprentices? Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Shrout Subject: Re: CINDEX or Macrex Larry, Before this all gets out of hand, not what you are doing, but the subject Cindex or Macrex, I have to point out that you are leaving out what may be the best professional indexing software of all, SKY Index Pro. I can document that my gross income has gone up more than 10k after switching to it. I am not a salesman, just an indexer who has gotten results. The new indexers need to know that there is another viable choice to evaluate. Which software package is best depends upon an individual indexer's preferences, methods, and requirements for the type of indexing done. Let's not leave out the package that might be best of many of us. Richard Shrout larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM wrote: > > ***PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THIS MESSAGE*** > > OK, how about this? Everyone who wishes to can send me an email with the > subject of either "CINDEX" or "Macrex" depending on which one you use in > your regular indexing work. I'll count 'em up and report back to the list. > (Note that I have "anti-spammed" my return address, so you will have to get > it from the text below.) > > I don't plan to read the messages, just count them, so the body text is > irrelevant. And for the paranoid among you, I will discard the messages > after counting them, and won't use your email address for anything. > > ***PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THIS MESSAGE*** > > (Index-l readers do not all need to receive this information.!!!) > > --->Send your message to larryh@millcomm.com <--- > --->put either the word "CINDEX" or the word "Macrex" in the subject<--- > > Larry Harrison > (CINDEX user) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:07:07 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: 76434.3136@COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: per request UNIVERSITY DEGREE PROGRAMS Increase your personal prestige and money earning power through an advanced university degree. Eminent, non-accredited universities will award you a degree for only $200. Degree granted based on your present knowledge and experience. No further effort necessary on your part. Just a short phone call is all that is required for a BA, MA, MBA, or PhD diploma in the field of your choice. For details, call 602-230-4252 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: MESH FYI Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org >John Stey >Associate Director >National Network of Libraries of Medicine New England >University of Connecticut Health Center >263 Farmington Ave Farmington CT 06030-5370 >Tel: 860-679-4795 > >A browser of MeSH is now available from the MeSH home page, >www.nlm.nih.gov/mesh. It is designed to present, in hypertext, >virtually >all of the information contained in MeSH records. It should be of >interest >to indexers, catalogers, reference librarians, and others concerned with >controlled terminology. It is not designed to link to a search engine, >such as >PubMed or Internet Grateful Med. > >For those interested in providing a link to the browser, I would point >out >that we have chosen to have it appear in a separate window, as it does >not provide navigation to other sites within NLM. I would recommend >that >others do the same if making a link. Frequent users might choose to >bookmark >the browser directly. > >The browser is a product of the Indexing Initiative. Credit for making >it all work >goes to Florence Chang. Responsibility for the content rests with me. > >Stuart Nelson [NELSONS@mail.nlm.nih.gov] > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:03:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: copyediting question In-Reply-To: <199901241643.LAA11311@mail2.bellsouth.net> Rachel, that doesn't seem an excessive amount of time at all, to me. I average somewhere around 8 pages per hour for academic books, but a really "bad" ms. can easily crawl by at 5-6pp/hour.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Rachel Rice |Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 9:31 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: copyediting question | | |Well, Index-L seems to be down, either that or everyone's asleep. |Meanwhile, for those of you who CE, about how many pages per hour can you |do? Obviously there must be a range depending on the material, and on how |much editing is needed. As this was my first CE job in 10 years I think I |was really slow. Had to look up a lot of things that if I were doing it a |lot I'd just know. So I don't want to charge actual hours but rather, what |a reasonably experienced copyeditor would charge. This book was 410 ms |pages, and actual hours was about 60, which is very excessive, even |allowing for the fact that it was wildly inconsistent, had many factual |errors, and millions, maybe even billions, of grammar and punctuation |errors. Plus there was a lot of typsetters marking up to do. I'm figuring I |actually only managed maybe 6 pages an hour. Does that seem really slow? | |Sorry to take up the time of all you non-CEers. If I take even one more CE |job then I'll sub to Copyedit-L and bug them instead. I promise. | |Rae | | Rachel Rice | Directions Unlimited Desktop Services | Indexing, editing, proofreading | http://homepages.together.net/~racric | racric ICQ 4192176 | ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:10:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex In-Reply-To: <199901241643.LAA11574@mail2.bellsouth.net> This is a whole other matter. There's really only two choices for most of us, and I suspect most of us respond by choosing both! I greatly prefer WordPerfect, as I've been using that heavily since version 4.2, but I also make regular use of Word (which handles Cindex's RTF files much better than WP). IAC, I would strongly recommend to anyone who works as a freelancer *anywhere* in the editing/publishing universe that it is greatly to their advantage to be thoroughly familiar with both WordPerfect and MSWord. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Anita York |Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 10:18 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex | | |That brings to mind a question I'd like to put out to the list. What word |processor do people use with their indexing software? I'm getting ready to |buy one, and thus far have only used the ones that come with the various |Windows programs. I realize everyone probably has their own |favorites, just |wanted to hear what you all have to say. Thanks. |Anita |-----Original Message----- |From: Michael K. Smith |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 9:35 AM |Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex | | |>I don't think there's any collective wisdom as to which software is the |>"best." I've played around a little with Macrex and SKY, but I've never |>actually used anything *but* Cindex (both DOS and Windows versions) for |real |>index production. But I'm also a dedicated WordPerfect user, since 4.2. I |>can use Word, and often I am required to by a client, but I don't like it |>much. (And I prefer to drive a Toyota, without claiming that it's the best |>car for everyone.) So whatever works best for you is the software |that *is* |>best for you. |> |>BTW, I was introduced to all the (then) available software a number of |years |>ago at a 'software comparison' workshop in Austin, which was extremely |>useful. If you can get someone knowledgable to do a session like that for |>your local ASI chapter, I would recommend it highly.... |> |>Mike |> |>Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services |>mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 |>http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html |> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ |>If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or |>the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the |>first five minutes of conversation. |> |> |>|-----Original Message----- |>|From: Indexer's Discussion Group |>|[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Barry Rofman |>|Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:34 PM |>|To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |>|Subject: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex |>| |>| |>|I got the Student version of Cindex for my training and was assuming I'd |>|get the regular version when I begin working professionally but nearly |>|every person on this thread has mentioned Macrex when they talk about |>|software. Does anyone have experience with both and know how similar |>|they are? Why does the "collective wisdom" seem to, if not prefer, at |>|least primarily use, Macrex? |>| |>|Rebecca |>| |> | ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:33:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Apprenticeships, Assistants Yes, I'd like to know that, too. Suellen On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:22:24 EST PDepri5514@AOL.COM writes: >Maria > >Hi, I'm Patrick. I have a question about your post. >You mentioned that indexers that you take on as apprentices come to MD >for a >week. >So, coming to MD. is a mandatory requirement? Am I reading that >correctly? >Also, are you accepting any more apprentices? > >Patrick > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:59:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maria Coughlin Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Etc. In-Reply-To: <199901230504.WAA12269@indexing.com> Many thanks to all of you who have sent me very thoughtful replies regarding my recent posting. I will take time to respond to each individual, off list, as soon as I can, but that may not be until mid-Feb, as we are in the home stretch of a 100,000-entry index. I apologize that I did not foresee how many indexers and beginning indexers are searching for a mentoring/training/assisting relationship. If I were more clued in, I would have written a disclaimer: I am right now involved in training or arranging training for 1) a candidate indexer in Vermont and 2) an established indexer in Maryland who needs training in cell biology and biochemistry. None of my training programs takes less than a year to complete, and I want to give each trainee lots of "quality time," which means that two trainees is the most I can handle in any one year, and therefore I'm not able to take on anyone new in 1999. I will do my best to reply to everyone who has already written me, and I would be happy to advise any ASI chapter that would like to set up a program similar to mine, but, if you intended to write me and haven't yet, please don't. If too many people contact me, I can't give everyone the thoughtful reply I'd like to, and I can't stand the guilt! Barbara Cohen informed me that she's writing an ASI-sponsored publication on the mentoring/training topic, with ms submission scheduled for June 1999, so interested people should look for this publication (if you want it given priority by ASI, tell your ASI Board members). Interested people should press their chapter chairs for chapter meetings on this topic, the editor of Key Words for articles on this topic, and the organizers of ASI's annual meeting for roundtables, presentations, or general-session panel discussions on the topic. I don't think ASI has exhausted this topic or ASI's potential to serve members with problems in mentoring, etc. During Alexandra Nickerson's presidency of ASI, I participated in many formal and informal discussions of how ASI could foster mentoring/training among its members, so the Board and officers were certainly concerned about this in 1997-1998. The current Board and officers would certainly respond if members pressed them for action on such a program. Finally, Dan Connolly wrote me about a newly formed discussion group for indexing students -- (http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/indexstudents) -- that looks like a great resource for *everyone* concerned with the mentoring/training/assisting topic. Finally, I should add one other bit of information that may be of interest to anyone thinking about a mentoring relationship, either as the mentor or as the mentee (is that a word?). I don't take on any trainee whom I haven't met personally and spent some time conversing with, face to face. I don't take on anyone who is *already* a good friend. I "find" people through personal recommendations from friends/indexers whose opinions I respect. My chief source of local trainees has been Kitty Kinzer, the librarian of St. John's College [now retired, as of August 1998], who had a wonderful ability to guide the right people to my door. The trainees with whom I formed long-distance relationships were/are all individuals I met at meetings, on an airplane, or (once) at a B&B. If I had time, I'd explain the rationale for this policy, but I don't (deadline looming -- see above). I have given presentations to ASI on all this, and I'd be happy to go over it again with any chapter that invites me to, but it does take an hour or so to get through my presentation, and then there's usually a lively Q&A, so the time investment isn't possible or appropriate here. I do wish all of you hopeful indexing students/beginners success in your endeavors. Maria Coughlin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:55:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Re: copyediting question -----Original Message----- From: Rachel Rice > I'm figuring I >actually only managed maybe 6 pages an hour. Does that seem really slow? No. I do mostly copyediting, and have been at it for more than 15 years. My speed still varies between 4 and 20 pages an hour! Until I actually see a project, I estimate 8-10 pages an hour. Carol Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: wordprocessors In-Reply-To: <000201be47bc$64cf8d20$25c94dd8@mksmith1.bellsouth.net> Every one of my clients wants the index in Word. I use 5.1 on a Mac, but I have 6.0 if they insist upon that. No matter what you use, nowadays all Mac (current and updated) users can open any file from any wordprocessor. I dunno about Windows/DOS. Thanks Mike, for the CE time-spent info. I did enjoy it as a different kind of thought process from indexing, but I think indexing pays better. At least unless I can negotiate a better per hour rate. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 4192176 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:55:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Xthona Subject: recording phone calls I believe you are legally allowed to record a phone call as long as you are a participant or if at least one of the participants is aware that it is being recorded. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:10:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Xthona Subject: Re: technical terms I think you should use your own term if you know it is an accurate term and people might look for it. If you aren't sure it is accurate then it is probably best not to use it. If it doesn't use up too much space, you could include a term that actually appears on the page in parentheses after your term so the reader does know where you are sending them. Richard Owens wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am often ambivalent about indexing a technical term that does not appear > in the text. > > One of my subject areas is psychology. I might, for example, read how one > person sees characteristics in another person that are really part of > his/her own personality. I will know this to be 'projection'. But if that > actual term is not used in the text should I index it? > > Yes I should - otherwise somebody looking for information on this subject > might well miss it. > > No, I shouldn't - because somebody who does not know what projection means > might be confused when he/she looks up the location and finds no mention of > the term. > > No, I shouldn't - because semantics is a tricky problem in this area. So > what I consider to be projection, others (including the author) might not. > > Any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated. > > Regards > > Richard ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:37:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex To all ASI members: I have some questions about embedding indexing in which the client sends the text electronically. Would someone e-mail me off-line? Thanks. Robert Saigh Razorsharp Communications, Inc. fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:42:05 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: OneClick (was: INDEXING SPEED) On 1/23/1999 9:39 PM Carol Roberts wrote (in part): >OneClick is a nifty little program for Macs that allows you to write >macros. You can use it with any other program, but mostly I use it with >Cindex. Another alternative for the Macintosh is QuicKeys. It's available through the usual Mac outlets for about $90. I have used it to eliminate many of the mouse-clicks in Cindex, e.g., clicking the Find All button during a find, or toggling the Propagate Changes setting. It is also available for Windows at $50. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:50:13 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex Robert A. Saigh wrote: > To all ASI members: > > I have some questions about embedding indexing in which the client > sends the text electronically. > > Would someone e-mail me off-line? Thanks. 2 questions, Robert? Is there a particular reason you want only ASI-member indexers to respond to your post? Is there a particular reason you only want to ask, and have answered, your questions off-line? I'm sure I'm not the only one on the list who learns from the information exchanges on the list, and I am very interesting in embedded indexing, altho' fairly ignorant about it at this point in time. Jackie Flenner ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:01:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyediting question Hi Rachel-- I, too, do occasional copyediting jobs. And just as with indexing, my speed depends upon factors such as the density of the material, the clarity of writing, and how well my brain happens to be functioning at the time. From your description, I'd say your speed was reasonable, and by all means, charge your client for all of the time you spent on the project! Regards, Terri ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Teresa A. Hudoba Indexers Plus: Indexing, Editing, and Other Useful Services tahudoba@aol.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reality is for those who have no imagination. (bumper sticker) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In a message dated 99-01-24 11:42:29 EST, Rachel Rice wrote: << Meanwhile, for those of you who CE, about how many pages per hour can you do? Obviously there must be a range depending on the material, and on how much editing is needed. As this was my first CE job in 10 years I think I was really slow. Had to look up a lot of things that if I were doing it a lot I'd just know. So I don't want to charge actual hours but rather, what a reasonably experienced copyeditor would charge. This book was 410 ms pages, and actual hours was about 60, which is very excessive, even allowing for the fact that it was wildly inconsistent, had many factual errors, and millions, maybe even billions, of grammar and punctuation errors. Plus there was a lot of typsetters marking up to do. I'm figuring I actually only managed maybe 6 pages an hour. Does that seem really slow? Sorry to take up the time of all you non-CEers. If I take even one more CE job then I'll sub to Copyedit-L and bug them instead. I promise. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:59:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Pakistan expert needed Can anyone answer any of the following questions? I'm prepared to submit my queries to the author if necessary, but I'm in the final editing stage, and it would be nice to submit the index as complete as possible. 1. Are the Balochistan National Alliance, the Balochistan National Front, and the Balochistan National Party the same entity? If any of them are the same, which name would be more correct? (This book has been poorly copyedited, or else it hasn't gone through the copyeditor yet; I'm finding inconsistent spellings all over the place, even when I'm sure they are the same person or organization: Hamid/Hameed, Shura/Shoora, etc. That makes it harder to tell when things really are separate, but carry similar names.) 2. Is the National Awami party the same as the Awami National Party? Thanks in advance, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net Wordsmith Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:16:02 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: Pakistan expert needed There is a Pakistan News Service which might be helpful. Here's their FAQ url: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/bit-pns-l-faq/faq.html And these are the links on their FAQ page: PNS-L FAQ: Pakistan News Service Discussion (bit.listserv.pns-l) * Introduction * 1) About bit.listserv.pns-l * 2) Introduction to Pakistan News Service Discussions. * 3) Editorial Policies of PNS-L * 4) History Data on PNS-L * 5) Auto DIGEST setup for PNS-L * 6) Where to Send Contributions? * 7) PNS-L Staff & how to contact them? * 8) How to subscribe to PNS-L * 9) For Information on Pakistan * 10) Archived Digests * 11) WWW Home Page * 12) This FAQ: Archive Info, History & Credits Jackie Flenner ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:23:57 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: copyediting question Rachel, One page every 10 minutes is miraculous, even without all the marks you implied needed to be made. Don't short change yourself! Let your client pay for what he's getting--careful work that improved his ms 100%. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:26:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: recording phone calls Every state has it own laws, I think in California you must have permission to record a call. Remember Linda Tripp's recordings were illegal as she did not let Monica know that she was being taped. Roberta At 10:55 AM 2/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >I believe you are legally allowed to record a phone call as long as you are a >participant or if at least >one of the participants is aware that it is being recorded. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:29:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: copyediting question Rachel, give yourself credit for doing a difficult job at a good rate of speed. I have done quite a bit of copy-editing, and the number of pages I can do an hour varies wildly depending on the quality of the copy. I have many times found myself plodding through bad copy at a rate slower than yours. Charge at the rate you contracted for, and do not apologize. Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing The Ethical Ghost: Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:41:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: technical terms > One of my subject areas is psychology. I might, for example, read how one > person sees characteristics in another person that are really part of > his/her own personality. I will know this to be 'projection'. But if that > actual term is not used in the text should I index it? > > Yes I should - otherwise somebody looking for information on this subject > might well miss it. > > No, I shouldn't - because somebody who does not know what projection means > might be confused when he/she looks up the location and finds no mention of > the term. > If the author uses another term to describe the phenomenon, I would just put in a cross-reference: Projection, See Cross-identification If the term the author uses is very far from standard usage, I might also modify its entry in the index to "cross-identification (projection)" But if the author is talking about something else, and I, as an educated reader, just happen to recognize that it is also projection, I would not index it. It is not my job to write the book the author forgot to write. Janet Russell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:00:01 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Pakistan expert (still) needed Hi Kara, Not a Pakistan expert here, but you might want to use a meta-search engine on this question. I have found the correct form of some incredibly obscure names this way, e.g., the Mayalasian foreign minister in the late 1970s. I did a quick check of this though and here's what I found, for what it's worth. Yes, I think this book is in need of some serious capyediting. John and Kara Pekar wrote: > > > 1. Are the Balochistan National Alliance, the Balochistan National Front, > and the Balochistan National Party the same entity? If any of them are the > same, which name would be more correct? Many sites refer to the Balochistan National Movement. This entity split into two factions, one of which is apparently a major component of the Balochistan National Party. The best site on this seems to be one in German and I confess my German isn't good enough to follow it all. Maybe it can be of use to you though. I didn't see any references to an Alliance or a Front. Unfortunately, the Balochistan home page is under construction. http://www.asienhaus.org/publikat/sab/sab3_98/parteien.htm > 2. Is the National Awami party the same as the Awami National Party? > The Awami National Party (ANP) is a large party and is probaby the one referred to. However, Balochistan has a local party with a similar name, and, given the inconsistencies in this text, I suppose it is possible that the reference is to this entities. Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:14:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: OneClick Web site This is for the people who asked about OneClick. I found the URL for Westcode, who makes OneClick: http://www.westcodesoft.com/lists/ Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:34:18 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beverly Schane Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Etc. Could you please let the list know how many responses you received? I'd like to know how many of us are out there. (I was just going to e-mail you myself to inquire about mentoring.) Thanks. Bev ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:11:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Etc. In-Reply-To: <199901241258.ramnp8.ca2.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> Maria: On behalf of the Carolina chapter, I'd be interested in any pointers you have on mentoring. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:27:12 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: technical terms In-Reply-To: <199901241918.LAA11123@dns1.mcn.org> Christine wrote: >I think you should use your own term if you know it is an accurate term and >people >might look for it. If you aren't sure it is accurate then it is probably best >not to use it. This is, to me, the classic situation in which a consultation with the author works wonders. Not to mention, builds your reputation as an indexer. >If it doesn't use up too much space, you could include a term that actually >appears on >the page in parentheses after your term so the reader does know where you are >sending them. If there is another term that the author uses, I would prefer to use a ^see^ reference from projection to the author's term or concept. But especially in psychology and psychoanalysis, there is a lot of disagreement about these concepts, and academic and even political disagreement about their use, so, again, if at all possible I would contact the author. Most authors are thrilled to be asked the question: "When you refer to x-and-such, I think of projection; am I correct there, and is it okay to use that term in the index?" --Victoria Richard Owens wrote: >> I am often ambivalent about indexing a technical term that does not appear >> in the text. vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:33:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: technical terms In-Reply-To: <199901242142.NAA27876@dns1.mcn.org> Janet Russell wrote: >But if the author is talking about something else, and I, as an educated >reader, just happen to recognize that it is also projection, I would not index >it. It is not my job to write the book the author forgot to write. I think this is a tough line to identify. I definitely think it is my job as an indexer to bring in as many access points as I can to the text, and that includes cross-referencing from synonymns that I add into the index in order to hook up with the language that the author uses. I thought that was the point of being an educated reader as an indexer, was the capacity to do that. But maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. --Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:18:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: recording phone calls In-Reply-To: <199901241903.OAA16159@shooter.bluemarble.net> I am no lawyer but due to my purient interests (listening to lawyers' comments on Lewinsky, etc) I have heard and read these legal opinions on the subject, and feel that they should be used as a caution to not record in questionable circumstances unless you have checked with an actual legal expert: (1) Laws vary tremendously from state to state. When a Floridian recorded the cell phone conversations of high ranking Republican Congressmen discussing naughty matters a year or two ago and revealed it, commentators said he had committed a Florida felony whereas in some other states it would not even be a crime. He was not prosecuted. On the other hand, in Maryland where Linda Tripp recorded Monica Lewinsky, ignorance of the law decriminalizes your act. But, do not count on that being an easy out: the Radio Shack where Tripp bought her equipment had a legal warning printed on the box, a clerk remembered from her striking appearance informing her when she made the purchase, and the store found that it still had the security videotape. (2) If the other guy consents (including if you announce that you will record it to offer him a chance to get out of it) it seems to be legal. Best, Marvant On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Christine Xthona wrote: > I believe you are legally allowed to record a phone call as long as you are a > participant or if at least > one of the participants is aware that it is being recorded. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Diacritics Hi everyone, I need several ASCII values and wonder if anyone has them: lowercase a with macron over it uppercase a with macron n with "dot" under it, l.c. upper case U with "carrot" over it upper case S with an accute accent over it; lowercase also here's a weird one (these are mostly translations of Sanskrit, by the way): it looks like an s and an i with a macron that has an extra little "check" at the front. lowercase u with macron, lowercase h with dot under it, l.c. s with dot under it, l.c. r with a ring under it (not a dot), l.c. I'm sure there's a website that can give me all these ASCII values, but can't find one with my search engine. Anyone have any ideas? I'd consider asking the editor to put all these in, as they obviously were able to get them in the page proofs! But they want camera-ready copy. AACK! I've never had ANYONE ask for camera-ready copy so will have a lot of fun, I'm sure.... Paula C. Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. S. Gangolly" Subject: Re: Diacritics In-Reply-To: <199901250325.WAA24438@sarah.albany.edu> On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I need several ASCII values and wonder if anyone has them: > you might try one of these sites: http://www.msc.cornell.edu/helpful_data/ascii1.html http://bohr.concordia.ca/~eddy/298/ascii.htm http://www.ifcomputer.de/manuals/refman/node539.html http://www.ifcomputer.de/manuals/refman/node539.html http://hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu/~ted/pages/ascii.html http://hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu/~ted/pages/ascii.html (I like this one) hope this helps, jagdish ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jagdish S. Gangolly, Associate Professor| Where is the life we have | State University of New York at Albany | lost in living? | Albany, NY 12222. | Where is the wisdom we have| Phone: 518 442-4949 Fax: 518 442-3944 | lost in knowledge? | e-mail: j.gangolly@albany.edu | Where is the knowledge we | URL:http://www.albany.edu/acc/gangolly | have lost in information?| | -- T.S.Eliot | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:37:59 +0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Faith Howell Subject: Religious titles Thanks for the feedback on references for indexing Christian religious/theological works. I followed up "The Sheffield Manual for Authors and Editors in Biblical Studies" recommended by Sven Wair and have the following information from the internet which may be of interest to others on Index-L: Sheffield Academic Press (Biblical Studies Book List) website is: http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/academic/A-C/biblst/ The book is listed under category Biblical-Theology. The listed price is $16.50. Publication date: November 1997 E-mail: sales@sheffac.demon.co.uk Faith Howell Howell Indexing Services E-mail: howdex@uq.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:56:08 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lise Lingo Subject: JOB-OP: need book indexer in Hong Kong next week I am looking for a Hong Kong based indexer to index a travel guide to the Philippines. The work needs to be done next week, and the indexer needs to have his/her own computer and software (the file will be a PageMaker 6.5 file). Please reply to liselingo@attmysite.com. Thanks very much. Lise Lingo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:03:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Trainee booklet and finding mentors Just to clarify Maria's comments about the publication I am working on: I am trying to finish this booklet, which has been "in prep." for years. I hope to get the final manuscript to the publications committee by mid-June. I started it a number of years ago, based on a panel discussion we had at the San Diego (if I am recalling correctly) ASI conference. The focus of the book is on negotiating a contract between a mentor and a trainee, written from the perspective of someone who has "hired" a number of trainees over the years. There are discussion checklists and suggested procedures for establishing a good working relationship. It touches on the topic Maria brought up this morning: finding someone suitable with whom to work. I liken the process to selecting a life partner. After all, when I bring someone into my business, they learn an awful lot about me, my clients, and my business practices (I'm sure Maria would concur about this), and I need to be sure I am taking on someone with whom I am going to have a long and fruitful relationship. Probably most people willing to take on someone to train are fairly cautious about selecting someone. I think that answers for why we like to have met someone face-to-face and have recommendations of other people about them. For those of you intertested in finding someone to work with: My advice to people who ask me (and like Maria, I am usually too busy to handle more than one person at a time, and like Maria, I am also currently working with someone) is to look for an in-house job that involves indexing, if you can't find a person to mentor you. Go to local chapter meetings. Go to the national meeting in June. Be available, be training yourself as much as possible, and be ready to take advantage of an opportunity to work with someone when it happens. But I generally want to work with someone who has already finished the USDA course, who has had some prior training, who just needs help getting the business side of things up and running (although they have all needed content-related assistance as well, as beginning indexers). You should select the person you ask to mentor you as carefully as you would select a spouse.... not just someone who is available, but someone who can help you get your business going in the way you want it to grow. (Someone with similar subject-area experience, similar client base, similar work habits, etc.) Certainly you select this person more carefully than you select an instructor, which is the paradigm most people try to follow for finding someone (because they are used to that selection method, having been students). I recommend reading any books you can find about mentoring in the business world. The selection process for finding a mentor is quite different from just 'signing up" with someone available, and you should be as pro-active about selecting them as they are going to be about selecting you. I don't think there is database of indexers who work with trainees, from which you can make a selection. Any trained indexer is a potential mentor. But most people tell me they just don't want to take the time or make the effort. If you want to work with someone, you have to convince them you are serious enough for them to overcome some natural reluctance to do so--at least that is how I think most of us got started: we met someone who made us think it would be worth the effort, jumped in, and haven't regretted it. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:52:26 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Diacritics In-Reply-To: <199901250326.WAA21455@mail2.bellsouth.net> Are you using a Windows machine? If so, take a look at the Character Map -- on your Start Menu, under Programs / Accessories... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Paula C. |Durbin-Westby |Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 9:36 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Diacritics | | |Hi everyone, | |I need several ASCII values and wonder if anyone has them: | |lowercase a with macron over it |uppercase a with macron |n with "dot" under it, l.c. |upper case U with "carrot" over it |upper case S with an accute accent over it; lowercase also |here's a weird one (these are mostly translations of Sanskrit, by the |way): it looks like an s and an i with a macron that has an extra | little |"check" at the front. lowercase |u with macron, lowercase |h with dot under it, l.c. |s with dot under it, l.c. |r with a ring under it (not a dot), l.c. | |I'm sure there's a website that can give me all these ASCII values, but |can't find one with my search engine. Anyone have any ideas? | |I'd consider asking the editor to put all these in, as they obviously were |able to get them in the page proofs! But they want camera-ready copy. |AACK! I've never had ANYONE ask for camera-ready copy so will have a lot |of fun, I'm sure.... | |Paula C. Durbin-Westby |dwindex@louisa.net | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:21:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: schedule slips Please note the usual disclaimer: Check with the laws in your individual state or jurisdiction! You can always record conversations as long as you tell the other person that you're doing so (in the US, anyway). The rules for recording without telling the other party get tricky and vary from state to state. To be safe, just tell them. -- Sharon W. x7255 Rm. 223 Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Carol Roberts [SMTP:Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM] > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 10:56 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: schedule slips > > >Carol -- Nice ... I like that. In fact, I think I'll steal those words! > >:-) Thanks. > >BTW, I never thought of recording my phone conversations with the > editor.= > > > >That's an interesting idea ... but is it legal to record phone > >conversations? > >Wouldn't most people be uncomfortable knowing that their words were > >being recorded??? :^/ > > I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to just think out loud for a moment. My > guess is that it wouldn't be illegal so long as you're not using the tape > to defraud. If you're just using it so you can have a record of what was > said, I should think that would be legal. I would recommend telling anyone > you're going to record before you do it. If you tell the editor you're > going to tape the conversation simply because you need that kind of a > record, that might even (a) get her to be more on the ball or (b) switch > to > e-mail. I think it really is a good business practice to have everything > in > writing or as close to that as possible. I don't do that with > well-established clients, but I sure do it with new clients or ones who've > demonstrated a "poor memory" in the past. > > I used to work as a claims adjuster for an insurance company, and I had to > record people's accident descriptions over the phone. Some of those people > were our customers and some weren't (e.g., passengers in the car), but > almost all allowed me to tape their descriptions. I was required to tell > them they were being recorded and to get (on tape) their permission to be > recorded. I don't know whether that was a legal requirement (in New York > State) or simply company policy. However, no one acted as if they minded > being recorded. > > Cheers, > > > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:38:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: CINDEX or Macrex Tally ***PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THIS MESSAGE*** The votes have slowed to a trickle. Here's the tally so far: CINDEX 24 Macrex 10 SKY Index 7 HyperIndex 1 HTML Indexer 1 I will keep counting for another couple of days. Anyone who has not voted and wishes to can send me an email with the subject of "CINDEX" or "Macrex" or "SKY Index" depending on which one you use in your regular indexing work. I'll count 'em up and report back to the list. (Note that I have "anti-spammed" my return address, so you will have to get it from the text below.) I don't plan to read the messages, just count them, so the body text is irrelevant. And for the paranoid among you, I will discard the messages after counting them, and won't use your email address for anything. ***PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THIS MESSAGE*** (Index-l readers do not all need to receive this information.!!!) --->Send your message to larryh@millcomm.com <--- --->put the name of the indexing software you use in the subject<--- Larry Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:44:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DTDIGGS@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyediting question Rachel-- I agree with the other replies you've received to your copyediting question. Obviously, rate varies depending on numerous conditions, but having said that, I would estimate my "average" at 6-8 pages per hour. For a more official estimate, the Freelance Editorial Association cites its "recommended" rates as follows: basic copyediting, 3-8 pages/hour; substantive copyediting, 2-5 pages/hour; developmental editing, <1-5 pages/hour. Best -- Teddy (who, with no basement, sat in the bathtub for several hours on Thursday, reading, and luckily missed out on the tornado damage here in Little Rock!) DIGGS EDITORIAL SERVICES dtdiggs@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:29:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rimmer Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Etc. Maria, I'm sure that there are numerous wannabe "mentees" out here that knew you would be deluged and ,therefore, did not mail to you. We are still hoping that others will respond to the good advice that you gave. Pat -----Original Message----- From: Maria Coughlin To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 1:28 PM Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Etc. >Many thanks to all of you who have sent me very thoughtful replies >regarding my recent posting. I will take time to respond to each >individual, off list, as soon as I can, but that may not be until mid-Feb, >as we are in the home stretch of a 100,000-entry index. > >I apologize that I did not foresee how many indexers and beginning indexers >are searching for a mentoring/training/assisting relationship. If I were >more clued in, I would have written a disclaimer: I am right now involved >in training or arranging training for 1) a candidate indexer in Vermont and >2) an established indexer in Maryland who needs training in cell biology >and biochemistry. None of my training programs takes less than a year to >complete, and I want to give each trainee lots of "quality time," which >means that two trainees is the most I can handle in any one year, and >therefore I'm not able to take on anyone new in 1999. > >I will do my best to reply to everyone who has already written me, and I >would be happy to advise any ASI chapter that would like to set up a >program similar to mine, but, if you intended to write me and haven't yet, >please don't. If too many people contact me, I can't give everyone the >thoughtful reply I'd like to, and I can't stand the guilt! > >Barbara Cohen informed me that she's writing an ASI-sponsored publication >on the mentoring/training topic, with ms submission scheduled for June >1999, so interested people should look for this publication (if you want it >given priority by ASI, tell your ASI Board members). Interested people >should press their chapter chairs for chapter meetings on this topic, the >editor of Key Words for articles on this topic, and the organizers of ASI's >annual meeting for roundtables, presentations, or general-session panel >discussions on the topic. I don't think ASI has exhausted this topic or >ASI's potential to serve members with problems in mentoring, etc. During >Alexandra Nickerson's presidency of ASI, I participated in many formal and >informal discussions of how ASI could foster mentoring/training among its >members, so the Board and officers were certainly concerned about this in >1997-1998. The current Board and officers would certainly respond if >members pressed them for action on such a program. Finally, Dan Connolly >wrote me about a newly formed discussion group for indexing students -- >(http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/indexstudents) -- that looks like a >great resource for *everyone* concerned with the >mentoring/training/assisting topic. > >Finally, I should add one other bit of information that may be of interest >to anyone thinking about a mentoring relationship, either as the mentor or >as the mentee (is that a word?). I don't take on any trainee whom I haven't >met personally and spent some time conversing with, face to face. I don't >take on anyone who is *already* a good friend. I "find" people through >personal recommendations from friends/indexers whose opinions I respect. My >chief source of local trainees has been Kitty Kinzer, the librarian of St. >John's College [now retired, as of August 1998], who had a wonderful >ability to guide the right people to my door. The trainees with whom I >formed long-distance relationships were/are all individuals I met at >meetings, on an airplane, or (once) at a B&B. If I had time, I'd explain >the rationale for this policy, but I don't (deadline looming -- see above). >I have given presentations to ASI on all this, and I'd be happy to go over >it again with any chapter that invites me to, but it does take an hour or >so to get through my presentation, and then there's usually a lively Q&A, >so the time investment isn't possible or appropriate here. > >I do wish all of you hopeful indexing students/beginners success in your >endeavors. > >Maria Coughlin > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:39:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: schedule slips At 09:21 AM 1/25/99 -0500, you wrote: >Please note the usual disclaimer: Check with the laws in your individual >state or jurisdiction! > >You can always record conversations as long as you tell the other person >that you're doing so (in the US, anyway). The rules for recording without >telling the other party get tricky and vary from state to state. To be >safe, just tell them. > >-- Sharon W. > x7255 > Rm. 223 >Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > Anyone know Linda Tripp's email address? She may be able to advise (hopefully for a cheap rate!) ;-) M. J. Barczak Washington D.C. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:27:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Etc. There is another model of mentoring/training. I've done this with a couple of people and it has worked out well; I'm not doing it at this point, but I'd like to encourage other experienced indexers to consider it. I haven't found that my work lends itself to actual apprenticeships; there isn't a part of it that I want or need to lend out (except every once in a while in emergencies!). So what I've done is to do one-on-one training for an hourly fee. I required people to have finished the USDA course or something similar (one person had studied indexing in library school); I wasn't up for teaching the real basics. Then we had sessions in which I critiqued indexes and the person looked at my work and work process and asked questions. We did this in person, which is very nice, but I think it could work long-distance too. I was also available for short phone or email questions, and I didn't charge for that time. I would start by giving them a book that I'd already indexed; they'd take it home and index it, and then together we'd compare their index to mine and I'd give them feedback. Or they'd bring in indexes to other books. With one student, I critiqued enough of her indexes that I eventually felt comfortable recommending her to publishers, and that got her started. Because they were paying me by the hour, the mentoring time didn't take away from my money-earning time. I hope other experienced people will think about trying this method! Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:16:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Mentoring, Training, Etc. Hi Do Mi, Yes, I too have provided what I call "index critiques" for an hourly fee. The people that I have done this for have said it is a useful process. Currently I am working with someone where I am critiquing all of her indexes for a six- month period, so she has continuity of feedback, for a percentage of her income for that period. (I charge 10 percent of what she bills for each job, which is not much money but helps defray at least some of the time I put in.) I find that over a period of time, an indexer makes a recurring set of problems (for each person, this set of errors is a unique combination, and sometimes I am amused by just how different our blind spots are). If I undertake a long-term series of critiques, I feel better prepared to offer advice about correcting problems. On a one-shot deal, I don't think I know enough about the indexer to separate out what are problems imposed by the material being indexed versus indexer errors. So, I think a long-term critique relationship is the way to go. But I don't refuse to do one-shot critiques, which I should add I have done for authors as well as for beginning indexers. For example, once I did it to check an index for an author who had hired a professional--he wanted to have a second opinion, and I knew the indexer involved and she agreed that if the author wanted to pay me, she didn't care. I certainly told the author I thought the index would be fine without my say so, but if he had more money than sense, who were we to object?? And other times I have edited indexes for authors working on their own projects, with good results. I can provide advice and help improve the index, especially for scholarly books where the author might not be able to manage the cost of a professionally prepared index. It's a sensible compromise between money and indexing expertise. (Usually the author manages to find money to get the whole thing done professionally for their next project, so the learning curve is quite fast about the value of a professional index!) I think that the biggest drawback of a traineeship is the amount of time required to set up projects, review them, explain problems, and so forth. It nearly double my workload when I have a regular trainee. The advantage of having a mentor, whether for a fee or through one-time questioning (and I consider Index-L the best mentor of all in this last regard), is that a new person has someone to call when they have a problem. And an experienced indexer gains an assistant and colleague, when all goes well. Unfortunately, because things don't always go well, more risk exists for the mentor than the mentee--hence the problem in finding willing, experienced indexers. Suggestion: I know that there are several other people who provide index critiques, and this would perhaps be a good thing for ASI chapters to keep a list of in their area and SIGs could make a list of people willing to critique indexes in particular topical areas. I will query my own SIGs about this.... Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:46:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Wager Subject: Utah Indexers? Are there any Utah-based indexers on the list? Everyone says to get involved in "your local ASI chapter" to help in getting started, but for me the most local is a 12-hour drive away. I'd love to get together informally with any indexers close to Salt Lake City if there aren't enough to form a chapter. I'm currently taking the USDA course. Debbie Wager ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: technical terms In-Reply-To: <199901250505.XAA16383@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I am often ambivalent about indexing a technical term that does not appear >in the text. I think of that as part of my job as an indexer--to add synonymous terms that don't actually appear in the text. And if I have some expertise in a given area, then I will bring that to bear. For example, in philosophy, some authors talk about the "mind/body problem" and others talk about the same thing and call it "Cartesian dualism." I would be remiss if I didn't include the missing term (whether as a cross-ref. or a doublepost), since I do know about it. This isn't rewriting the book; it's simply helping readers find information no matter how they look it up. Authors can't be expected to use every possible synonym for their concepts. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Leonard Subject: Query: Charging for copyright privileges Greetings all, Aside from indexing, I engage in information research and writing in nutrition and health. A university has shown interest in publishing several of my self-published, reviews (3 to 8 pages in length) of popular low-carbo diets which I market to dietitians. Each has required considerable effort for research and writing. Can anyone share some insight or a source of information re guidelines for a fair fee in this case? Regards and thanks David Leonard Dover, NH (Information research & back-of-the-book indexing in nutrition, health, and ag sciences) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: technical terms I too have occasionally pondered whether to include technical terms in the index that do not appear in the text. I try to stick as close to the author's terminology as possible, even if I don't like some of it. Sometimes one would indeed be serving the reader poorly by omitting an unmentioned term. I recall an author who used the term "assured destruction" in discussing nuclear strategy. This doctrine is far better known as "mutual assured destruction" or by its infamous acronym, MAD. Since readers could reasonably be expected to look these terms up in the index, I included them, although neither occurred verbatim in the text. I think this procedure can get out of hand, however, when one starts to include terms that are not just verbal variations that are better known. I too would probably include a cross ref. from "mind/body problem" to "Cartestian dualism," or vice versa, even if one phrase did not occur in the text. However, the two terms are not synonymous. Cartestian dualism may give rise to a mind/body problem, but the issue is controversial. Descartes didn't think there was a problem at all. Perhaps I would use "mind/body dualism" instead. I can see an indexer getting carried away with the inclusion of synonymous terms that don't actually appear in the text, but perhaps a little voice always advises one to stop. Nick Koenig Carol Roberts wrote: > > >I am often ambivalent about indexing a technical term that does not appear > >in the text. > > I think of that as part of my job as an indexer--to add synonymous terms > that don't actually appear in the text. And if I have some expertise in a > given area, then I will bring that to bear. For example, in philosophy, > some authors talk about the "mind/body problem" and others talk about the > same thing and call it "Cartesian dualism." I would be remiss if I didn't > include the missing term (whether as a cross-ref. or a doublepost), since I > do know about it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:25:41 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Miller Subject: Re: Utah Indexers? perfectly lovely! I am getting ready to take a job in St George and on my off days will be back in las vegas most of the time. I would love to make your acquaintance. I am _only_ on lesson 3/4 but need the stimulation of a real person near to talk to about words and all that. I have a part time residence in St George now. I was wondering myself which index society to join: California, Az or Colorado.....what are your plans? Rebecca paper2@prodigy.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:52:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: CINDEX or Macrex Tally In-Reply-To: <199901251443.GAA06544@dns1.mcn.org> I sincerely question the value of such an unrepresentative, unscientific "vote," especially since some of us sincerely believe that the interface is what people ought to be choosing, as people work in different ways and therefore having choice in software is a boon. What is the point with this? --Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:03:24 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: CINDEX or Macrex Tally Victoria Baker wrote: > > What is the point with this [survey]? I assumed it was simply a matter of curiosity, which is why I voted for HTML Indexer, with ":^)" appended. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:10:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JJDalton Subject: postings I will readily admit that I mostly lurk, so I may be stepping on toes. That is not my intent. When I first joined the list there was a thread concerning attaching your response to the entire e-mail sent to the list. Occasionally I have seen responses attached to the attachment to the original. As a dedicated lurker I find this repetitiously redundant, the 'collective wisdom' could do better. (There is no vocal emphasis on 'could') This is my own opinion and I am totally responsible for it. john 8^D ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:51:08 -0800 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: How to Keep your Hands off the Mouse There's an article on the CNN website on keyboard shortcuts for Windows: http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9901/25/mouse.idg/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:32:43 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rick Hurd Subject: Re: Indexing speed-Macrex vs. Cindex At 06:34 PM 1/21/1999 -0500, Barry Rofman wrote: >I got the Student version of Cindex for my training and was assuming I'd >get the regular version when I begin working professionally but nearly >every person on this thread has mentioned Macrex when they talk about >software. Does anyone have experience with both and know how similar >they are? Why does the "collective wisdom" seem to, if not prefer, at >least primarily use, Macrex? I don't know about Macrex, but I started with Cindex in the same way as you. I am very satisfied with Cindex and the support that I have been given. Rick Hurd, Rick's Indexing, 2125 Birmingham Rd. Liberty Mo. 64068 USA Phone/Fax: 816-781-9042 Email: ricksindexing@hotmail.com URL: http://members.aol.com/Find884344/index.html ICQ NO: 10752175 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:31:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: DH in doghouse Last night I was complaining because his recent favorite child-rearing book (_Ending the Homework Hassle_) has no index. He said, "It's still a great book! Not every book has to have an index!" Growl. == RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: S Fysh Subject: Re: DH in doghouse In-Reply-To: At 09:31 AM 1/26/99 -0800, you wrote: >Last night I was complaining because his recent favorite child-rearing >book (_Ending the Homework Hassle_) has no index. He said, "It's still >a great book! Not every book has to have an index!" > >Growl. The would-be indexer repeats the growl! Stephanie Fysh Editorial Services Oakville, Ontario Phone/Fax: (905)337-7586 E-mail: sfysh@interlog.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:59:51 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Reading the text first 26 January 1999 At the risk of chiming in on a thread that seems to have just about run its course- having only just caught up on reading my Index-L messages-- I wanted to lend my support to Cynthia Bertelsen's practice of reading scholarly texts all the way through before getting close to the computer. (This discussion may pertain to other areas as well, but I limit my discussion to scholarly texts in the humanities and social sciences since that's my expertise). Many factors affect the quality of the indexing we do: the indexing practices we develop (mostly on our own), how much money we need to earn in a year, how much time we are given to create any particular index, and the guidelines and space limitations we're allotted by publishers. Any specific index may be a compromise among any one of these (or other) factors. But it's always good to be reminded that there *are* indexing standards (as outlined by authorities in the field such as Nancy Mulvany, the Chicago Manual of Style, and the criteria for the H.W. Wilson Award for Indexing Excellence, among others), and that one way of getting close to achieving them is to read the book completely before starting to input its names and concepts. I believe that reading the whole book before you start inputting ensures that you understand the arguments of the book, that you're familiar with the main and minor characters in it (and how developed the analysis of each one will need to be), and that you know where you're going in constructing your index to the work--that is, that you know how to make the emphases of index mirror those of the text. I don't even think that reading the whole book slows the indexing process down. Once you understand the book, you *know* what emphases to give things; you *know* whether subentries are going to be needed or not. You almost never have to go back searching through pages looking for a previous citation whose importance you had failed to recognize. But one of the strongest reasons I can give for reading the book is the confidence it gives you in your own work. You know that the author has probably spent several years researching and writing this book. Because of the way the publishing industry works, you have only a few weeks in which to master all that material and to provide easy, graceful, eloquent access to it. Reading the book carefully all the way through honors and does justice to the author's creative efforts. And being familiar with the book means that you can talk easily and comfortably with the author or the publisher if questions arise about the content of the book or of the index itself. Though I know that other factors (like the ones mentioned above--need for money, not having enough time, etc.) impinge on real world indexing, doing one's best on every job seems to me simply the most ethical way of approaching one's work, regardless of what it is. And, to go a little further, I can't quite understand why there's what I perceive as a note of resentment in some of the recent email messages about what *I* see as the nature of indexing work: "I'm not getting paid to read the book, so I'll be darned if I'll do it" (I'm paraphrasing from memory here). My response to that comes in two parts: like so many others who responded to that thread, I regard reading the book, inputting the names and concepts, checking unusual names and supplying first names (where possible), highlighting typos, errors, and inconsistencies, and the editing, repeated proofreading, and final printing (or electronic delivery) of the index all part of the *job* of indexing. It may appear that we're only paid for the product, but what goes *into* the product, even if it's invisible, is part of the whole ball of wax. And, second, no one's *making* anyone be a freelance indexer. That's one of the joys of freelancing. It's an occupation we all freely chose and, though, there's a wide variety of practices within it, the nature of the work seems to me to be a given. Reading the book , as far as I'm concerned, is one of the best--and most basic--parts of it. --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer and 1998 Winner of the H. W. Wilson Award for Excellence in Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Patton Subject: job announcement The following came to my attention, but I cannot help. Maybe another of us can: >The Investment Company Institute, the association for the Mutual Fund >Industry, is currently soliciting vendors for the outsourcing of a large >directory. ICI is interested in vendors with strong layout/editorial >skills, in-depth knowledge of Framemaker (PC version) and the print >production process. Anyone interested in receiving a request for proposal >is asked to contact Margot Ziperman at the address listed at the bottom of >this note. > >Details are as follows: > >* Production of a 416 page, 8 1/2" x 11" , two-color, printed directory, >with 50 supplied film advertisements. Cover artwork and BRC to be supplied >by ICI. > >* ICI will release a tagged PC database file to be incorporated into a >desktop publishing program (Framemaker) by the contracted vendor. Vendor >will generate three separate indices for the publication. > >* Vendor will develop a two-color layout per established directory style. >Vendor will incorporate supplied ads into layout based upon input from ICI. > >* Company listings will not need to be edited for style. However, vendor >will make editorial style corrections such as: search for TM, C, R and SM >and replacing with appropriate superscript symbols; replace all ampersands >with the word "and"; add http:// to all web site addresses; search for >double hyphens and replace with em dash; etc. > >* Other editorial services include: > >* Letter by Letter alphabetization by company name. Database released >to vendor is not set-up in a Letter by Letter alphabetized format. Company >order will need to be edited to match. > >* Manual match of company name with 100 word description. Two >separate files containing 1) company name and address and 2.) 100 word >description. (A field to insert description exits in database file, >however, this task is still time consuming.) > >* ICI will review all proofs, check accuracy of ICI supplied text and >mark-up proofs for revisions to be corrected by vendor. Upon approval of >revised proofs by ICI, vendor will prepare files for output by ICI >publication printer. (Print buying services are not required.) > >* Schedule: Release materials to vendor in Mid July 1999. Materials >prepped by vendor are scheduled to be released to printer in early September >1999. > >If you are interested in receiving a proposal for this project, please send >information about your company to: >Margot W. Ziperman >Production Manager >Investment Company Institute >1401 H Street, NW, Suite 1200 >Washington, DC 20005 >Tel. 202-326-5881 >FAX: 202-326-5888 >Email: ziperman@ici.org ============================== Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:10:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jan Lay Organization: MUSC Subject: Sample letters? Hi, As a VERY new person to the indexing field, I was wondering if there was some reference book, or kind person, that I could go to for sample "letters of introduction/desire to be added to an indexing pool" to send to publishers? TIA Jan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:08:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Changing Roman page numbers to Arabic numbers Dear All, Finally finished "the index from Hell" - haven't been "lurking" - and on to the next impossible task. I've been informed by the editor that 46 pages of the front matter previously numbered in Roman is being changed to Arabic. In Macrex it's no big deal to renumber the appropriate Arabic page numbers to reflect the insertion of the 46 pages in the front. HOWEVER, I now need to renumber the 46 Roman pages to Arabic. Is it possible to do this using the advanced search techniques? I have not had the need to use before this . The other options are to 1) put it in page number order and use macros to change them or 2) import the page number order .mbk file into a word processor and changing them there. (I apologize to Gale Rhodes in advance for her advice regarding this - my web browser died and took my inbox with it - another piece of advice - print out your e-mail which you might need in the future! Thanks in advance for your help with this. Julie Sherman Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:09:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Marketing Thanks All for the replies regarding the effectiveness of web pages for bringing in new business. Julie Sherman Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:13:20 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books Hi everyone, Today a potential client contacted me to talk about my indexing experience and resume etc. which I mailed to her last week. Anyhow, during her conversation, she mentioned that they pay ONLY by per entry and then she quoted her rate which is 50 cents per entry. Needless to say, I was quite shocked. (BTW, they publish only medical books, between 150-200 books in a year. It is a very big publisher). I charge my regular clients by page rate and I have no idea how the entry rate works and what is the fair entry rate for medical books. So my questions (to those indexers who charge by entry) are..... 1....if the entry has a page range, For example, Meningitis, 216-218.......do you consider it just 1 entry or 3 entries , because it has 3 locators. (at least acc. to this publisher it would be considered 1 entry, that is what she told me). As far as I understand,they pay by per LINE, rather by page number/range. 2....if the See also cross reference has multiple entries....will it be considered be 1 entry or more than 1. (this client was not sure about this thing). I have to call her by Friday to tell her whether her 50 cents rate is acceptable to me or not. I will apprecaite any kind of help/response for figuring my per entry rate. Thanks a lot in advance. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:23:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Reading the text first Laura Gottlieb wrote a very thoughtful and insightful piece regarding reading the text first. We all should tuck her wisdom into our indexing kit bags with respect to our responsibility to the professionalism we bring to each one of these indexes. It sometimes becomes easy to cut corners and take shortcuts when we rarely come face to face with our customers, either editors or authors, especially in this day of Fed Ex and e-mail. However, impossible deadlines and a need to "make a living" at this (for some of us) does push us in this direction. It's my personal opinion and my goal to perfect these time-saving procedures while maintaining suitably high standards. BUT it is good to be reminded, and in such a pleasant and professional manner, to keep on guard against the demons of haste and deadline pressures. Thoughtfully, Julie Sherman Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books Well, it would seem to me that if you are charging $4 per page, and there are on average 8 entries per page, then $.50 per entry is approximately equivalent, but you do need a really good definition of what an entry is. I would think that for medical books, there would be more entries than this, so it might be a very good rate. Iris (my 2 cents worth) Manjit Sahai wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Today a potential client contacted me to talk about my indexing > experience and resume etc. which I mailed to her last week. Anyhow, > during her conversation, she mentioned that they pay ONLY by per entry > and then she quoted her rate which is 50 cents per entry. Needless to > say, I was quite shocked. (BTW, they publish only medical books, between > 150-200 books in a year. It is a very big publisher). > > I charge my regular clients by page rate and I have no idea how the > entry rate works and what is the fair entry rate for medical books. So > my questions (to those indexers who charge by entry) are..... > > 1....if the entry has a page range, For example, > > Meningitis, 216-218.......do you consider it just 1 entry or 3 entries , > because it has 3 locators. (at least acc. to this publisher it would be > considered 1 entry, that is what she told me). As far as I > understand,they pay by per LINE, rather by page number/range. > > 2....if the See also cross reference has multiple entries....will it be > considered be 1 entry or more than 1. (this client was not sure about > this thing). > > I have to call her by Friday to tell her whether her 50 cents rate is > acceptable to me or not. > > I will apprecaite any kind of help/response for figuring my per entry > rate. > > Thanks a lot in advance. > > Manjit K. Sahai > RAM Indexing Services > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:09:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books Manjit, Many medical book indexes are compensated at a per-entry rate. I don't know why, but that seems to be a practice that is common in medical indexing. The 50 cents per rate offered is low, but not uncommon. It is the bottom of the pay scale, as far as I'm concerned. It *is* important to clarify how they count entries. I am not trying to discourage you from taking this work. It is important to get a "foot in the door", and this may be a good way to do so. But just be aware that while acceptable, it is a low end rate. Perhaps others on the list can offer some clarification about what "per entry" actually means, in their experience. I don't like to work that way, and have not worked for per entry rates in quite a while. My clients pay me per page, even for medical indexing. I can tell you why I don't like to work that way: I like to keep payment separate from editorial decisions. In other words, I don't like the decisions I have to make as to whether to combine entries, or to add or delete subheads, to have any bearing on how much I get paid for the index. I prefer to have those decisions be "pure" -- on the merits of the case as far as indexing quality goes. If I choose to tighten up the index in places, I don't want to be thinking that I'm cutting my own pay by eliminating those entries, and wondering if I really want to do that, or should I leave it. I hope this information helps. There are many who do work for per entry rates. I hope you'll hear from them too, so you can make a good decision. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:44:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: managing editor position All -- I got this from the "six degrees" mailing list I'm on. = Please note the e-mail address in the message below = if you're interested. Do not reply to me; I know nothing = about the publisher other than what appears in the = message below. Sweatshop publishing company in Minneapolis, = Minn. is seeking a managing editor for its four = inflight magazines and a fitness magazine. = Please contact ckalyna@hotmail.com if = you're interested. I'll tell you more then. I'm = vacating the position and helping them find a replacement. GREAT opportunity for someone Lori Lathrop LoriLathrop@compuserve.com who wants a couple of years of experience; MUST be proactive and able to handle multiple tasks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:59:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Reading the text first In-Reply-To: <199901270506.XAA20867@mixcom.mixcom.com> Laura said: >And, to go a little further, I can't quite understand why there's what >I perceive as a note of resentment in some of the recent email messages >about what *I* see as the nature of indexing work: "I'm not getting paid to >read the book, so I'll be darned if I'll do it" (I'm paraphrasing from >memory here). Although I'm one of the indexers who admits to not reading every book first before beginning the inputting, I will assume that Laura is not addressing me in that statement. I certainly do not resent the intellectual work that goes into creating an index. And Julie said: >It sometimes becomes easy to cut >corners and take shortcuts when we rarely come face to face with our >customers, either editors or authors, especially in this day of Fed Ex >and e-mail. I want to stress that I am using an alternative technique for familiarizing myself with the text. Finding a different technique that appears to be successful is not the same as cutting corners and taking shortcuts. I attend as many indexing workshops as I can, and I experiment quite a bit with the different techniques and approaches that I learn. Although I agree with the importance of familiarizing oneself with the text, I think there is more than one way to do that, and if the Standards dictate only one way, then so much the worse for the standards. There, I said it! I am now donning my bright yellow asbestos suit. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:36:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Reading the text first Laura, I liked what you said about your method (and I know you're an excellent indexer because I helped judge your Wilson Award book!) I'm another indexer who doesn't use that method, though. I've tried reading the whole text first, and it just doesn't seem to help that much. I seem to be able to absorb as I read and input, and when I've tried to decide not to input until I read the whole thing, I find myself thinking of entries and becoming very impatient at not being able to get them recorded. Carol wrote: << I want to stress that I am using an alternative technique for familiarizing myself with the text. Finding a different technique that appears to be successful is not the same as cutting corners and taking shortcuts.>> I feel the same way. I take as much time as I need to explore the text thoroughly so that I understand it and can interpret it for the reader. I just do my exploring in front of the computer. I encourage beginners to try all of these methods and find out which ones work with your particular brain--keeping in mind that as professionals we create the best possible index within the parameters we're given. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:38:16 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: aaro545zzz@AOL.COM Subject: one request INTERNATIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE Need a new driver's license? Too many points or other trouble? Want a license that can never be suspended or revoked? Want ID for nightclubs or hotel check-in? Avoid tickets, fines, and mandatory driver's education. Protect your privacy, and hide your identity. The United Nations gave you the privilege to drive freely throughout the world! (Convention on International Road Traffic of September 19, 1949 & World Court Decision, The Hague, Netherlands, January 21, 1958) Take advantage of your rights. Order a valid International Driver's License that can never be suspended or revoked. Confidentiality assured. CALL NOW!!! 1-937-586-9313 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: CINDEX or Macrex Tally As with all statistics, the value of information gathered from the CINDEX versus Macrex tally will depend on the information gathering procedure. I am curious at the greater number of people using CINDEX than Macrex in the results posted so far, and wonder if this is because there are more Americans than British indexers on Index-L (I do not make this comment based on the quality of the software, just on my previous feeling that the usage was about equal, at least here in Australia). Secondly, as another writer has pointed out, any survey which has not included SkyIndex as an equal partner in the question, will not get a reliable response. I'd also like to add that the lower number of users of SkyIndex might reflect the fact that this package has been available for a much shorter time than the others. I suspect that the number of new purchasers of each of these packages in the last year or two would give a lot different (and more useful) response than the total number of current users. Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:14:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books In-Reply-To: <199901270512.AAA19455@mail3.bellsouth.net> |I can tell you why I don't like to work that way: I like to keep payment |separate from editorial decisions. In other words, I don't like the |decisions I have to make as to whether to combine entries, or to add or delete |subheads, to have any bearing on how much I get paid for the index. I prefer |to have those decisions be "pure" -- on the merits of the case as far as |indexing quality goes. If I choose to tighten up the index in places, I don't |want to be thinking that I'm cutting my own pay by eliminating those entries, |and wondering if I really want to do that, or should I leave it. | |Janet Perlman |Southwest Indexing I agree with this 200% -- but I've never seen it so well stated. I'm going to steal the essence of this, if you don't mind, Janet, for future marketing-and-money panels... :) Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Macrex, changing Roman to Arabic page numbers Dear All, Finally finished "the index from Hell" - haven't been "lurking" - and on to the next impossible task. I've been informed by the editor that 46 pages of the front matter previously numbered in Roman is being changed to Arabic. In Macrex it's no big deal to renumber the appropriate Arabic page numbers to reflect the insertion of the 46 pages in the front. HOWEVER, I now need to renumber the 46 Roman pages to Arabic. Is it possible to do this using the advanced search techniques? I have not had the need to use before this . The other options are to 1) put it in page number order and use macros to change them or 2) import the page number order .mbk file into a word processor and changing them there. (I apologize to Gale Rhodes in advance for her advice regarding this - my web browser died and took my inbox with it - another piece of advice - print out your e-mail which you might need in the future! Thanks in advance for your help with this. Julie Sherman Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books $.50 per entry is quite low for a medical text. To answer your specific questions, the page range (635-638) would be counted as one entry, and multiple entries under see also would be one entry - even worse, a main entry with multiple locators after it (or a sub-entry, for that matter, i.e., "Prostate cancer, 34, 82, 74, 108" would also be just one entry. If that same entry were broken down into four sub-entries under Prostate cancer, then it would be counted as four entries. At times when I am forced to take a per entry rate. But mostly it is for a small publisher of journals whose pages are approx. 1/2 size of a normal ms page and the subject material is more social work oriented - not as dense. There are times, however, when it works to your advantage as in a project that requires a cited author index (all cited authors of referenced research - a cited article by Grayson, Smith and Jones would be three separate entries). But even that is time consuming because you have to check the reference pages for the first name initial. I do have another client who pays $.60/entry, but it still is low, I think. Julie Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Reading the text first I agree wholeheartedly with Carol's statement, and others, that there are as many ways to create a *quality* index as there are people doing it. Familiarizing ourselves with the text *is* very important and as responsible indexers, and as part of the job of creating an index which we are being paid to do, it absolutely needs to be done -- and there are many alternative ways of doing it. Different strokes - end result - quality indexes created via different methods. Julie Sherman Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:51:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: ASI Indianapolis Program The program and schedule for the 31st Annual Meeting of the American Society of Indexers, scheduled for June 9-13 1999 at the Crowne Plaza Hotel in Indianapolis has been posted to the ASI web site as http://www.ASIndexing.com. Sandi Schroeder Vice President, ASI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:52:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Re: ASI Indianapolis Program Sandi Schroeder wrote -- >The program and schedule for the 31st Annual Meeting of the American Society >of Indexers, scheduled for June 9-13 1999 at the Crowne Plaza Hotel in >Indianapolis has been posted to the ASI web site as >http://www.ASIndexing.com. The address is case sensitive. Instead try http://www.asindexing.org/ Karen Lane klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:04:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books In a message dated 99-01-27 09:44:25 EST, you write: << Prostate cancer, 34, 82, 74, 108 >> I don't know about anyone else, but I would never count that as one entry. Interesting issue. for me, (and so far for my clients) that's four entries. Whereas prostate cancer 101-112 is one entry and I count each cross-reference as one entry. I agree complete with Janet Perlman on her reasons for disliking per entry payment. As for profitability of 0.50/entry that really depends on the book. If its around 5 entries per page, well that wouldn't be very profitable, but for some neurology texts ,for example, with up to 20 entries per page, it works out nicely. I think the medical editors are afraid that an indexer will shy away from typing 20 Latin terms per page if they are not paid by the entry. I know there are times when the thought of earnings has kept me pounding the keyboard when I'm sick of a really heavy duty chapter. When there isn't much analysis and just lots of typing per entry payment seems reasonable, although 0.50 is on the low side. Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:19:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books Re: < Prostate cancer, 34, 82, 74, 108 >> "Interesting issue. for me, (and so far for my clients) that's four entries. Whereas prostate cancer 101-112 is one entry and I count each cross-reference as one entry." Macrex counts the number of entries and this is counted as one entry, so that's what I use when counting the total number for "per entry rate" clients because that's how I thought it was done. Thanks to the comments from the "Collective Wisdom" I will now clarify this with those publishers in question. Julie Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:54 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: Re: CINDEX or Macrex Tally The tally has ended. As to the purpose, Victoria Baker wrote: >Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:52:05 -0800 >From: Victoria Baker >Subject: Re: CINDEX or Macrex Tally > >I sincerely question the value of such an unrepresentative, unscientific >"vote," especially since some of us sincerely believe that the interface is >what people ought to be choosing, as people work in different ways and >therefore having choice in software is a boon. What is the point with this? > >--Victoria > >vbaker@mcn.org and David Brown replied: > >Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:03:24 -0800 >From: "David M. Brown" >Subject: Re: CINDEX or Macrex Tally > >Victoria Baker wrote: >> >> What is the point with this [survey]? > >I assumed it was simply a matter of curiosity, which is why I voted for >HTML Indexer, with ":^)" appended. > >--David David is exactly right. A list newcomer posted a question as to why most of the experienced indexers on the list identify themselves as Macrex users, and why Macrex is better for indexing. I figured this was due to mere self-selection based on the topic of the day, so I decided to demonstrate this with a different self-selection method which would generate different results. Not scientific results, just different. I was curious about the outcome. Others were too, and expressed their encouragement to me. In reality, of course, there are many people who read this list without posting messages, and no conclusions or inferences can be drawn from this about the list membership at large except that some people enjoy posting and others don't. Similarly, only a small fraction of list members chose to vote by emailing me, and no inferences can be made about the popularity of various software packages from this effort. If anyone really wants to know which package is more popular, a true sample-based survey would be necessary. Here are the results, just to satisfy curiosity (in descending order of vote count): CINDEX 44 SKY Index 20 Macrex 16 HTML Indexer 1 HyperIndex 1 "wrote my own" 1 Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter American Society of Indexers *What's indexing? ---> http://asindexing.org/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:45:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books >Meningitis, 216-218.......do you consider it just 1 entry or 3 entries , because it has 3 locators. I would consider, Meningitis, 216-218 one entry Meningitis, 216, 217, 218 three entries If I'm reading this correctly, it seems to me the first entry would be, for example, a section on Meningitis that spans 3 pages and by skimming the pages it's obvious that it's all one continuous reference. The second, I'd have searched more closely for the topic and found three separate references. >2....if the See also cross reference has multiple entries....will it be considered be 1 entry or more than 1. More than one, for a similar reason: you're analyzing the relevance of Meningitis to some other term for more than one other term. Meningitis See also This See also That See also The-other (or See also This, That, The-other) is still three separate references each requiring your expertise as an indexer. == RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:53:20 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books For what it's worth, I just ran the Cindex "Index Statistics" against an index I'm working on now. I got 3,009 entries, 5,860 lines, 5,259 page references. "What is an entry" is indeed one critical question - $.50 multiplied by these different figures gives quite a range. As others have pointed out, the content of the entry is another. I've been somewhat burned on simple author indexes which you would think would be easy, but are probably the most inconsistent types of academic writing that takes place - Smith, A.R., Smith, Arthur, Smith, Andrew R., etc. - usually separate by chapters or more - leading to endless checking. My timekeep, index estimator and invoicing system automatically calculates the different figures just for my own benefit even though I normally just submit a bill by the job. Charles Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:53:40 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Miller Subject: Re: Utah Indexers? I would like to hear also : if you live in Utah which society should you go to: the Colorado one? Rebecca paper2@prodigy.net i turned off my 'automatically send email by html' is that good? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:04:53 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Miller Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books Hi charles. could you please explain further what your 'timekeep,index estimator and invoice system' is all about.???? Is it part of Cindex, for example? thanks rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:20:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Michaud Subject: Re: copyediting question In-Reply-To: <199901241642.LAA20443@mx03.erols.com> Rachel - I copyedit as well as index, and I think that 6 pages/hour is entirely appropriate for the sort of work you describe. I say, charge 'em for the whole 60 hours. Christine Michaud Michaud Editorial Services P.S. I try to get an idea from the client before starting of how long they think the job will take. That gives me an idea of how detailed they expect the edit to be, also. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:00:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books In-Reply-To: <199901271619.IAA07770@dns1.mcn.org> At 11:19 AM 1/27/99 -0500, you wrote: >Re: < Prostate cancer, 34, 82, 74, 108 >> >"Interesting issue. for me, (and so far for my clients) that's four >entries. >Whereas prostate cancer 101-112 is one entry and I count each >cross-reference >as one entry." > >Macrex counts the number of entries and this is counted as one entry, Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm clear about what you're referring to as "one" here, but Macrex would count the 101-112 locator as one entry, and the four separate locators as 4 more, and each cross-reference as another. You also have an option, in Macrex, for it to count each page between 101-112 as separate entries, thus rendering 12 entries rather than 1. In previous discussions of per-entry rates it has been argued that a person still has to read and analyze all 12 of those pages and it is therefore justified. But as others now have noted, those 12 pages may be quite clear and therefore not time-consuming to determine. Just hoping to clarify something I felt confused by. Having never worked on a per-entry basis, I don't know what the answers are. --Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:34:11 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books In a message dated 99-01-27 12:53:42 EST, you write: << "What is an entry" is indeed one critical question - $.50 multiplied by these different figures gives quite a range. >> Picking any one figure in a range is a win-lose situation for either the indexer and the client. Better to average them and make a win-win situation for both. And, while the subject is averaging them for the fairest fee, that is why billing by any one element--page, hour, entry, locator, whatever--is methodology indexers need to work on scrapping. Average all the elements, not just one, even include some ridiculous low rate the client may first propose. Why should you or your client bear the brunt of an easy pick when you can both get exactly what you work/pay for instead? Sorry about this soapbox. It comes up at least once every year, and I just can't keep silent about negotiation to treat people on both sides of the economic divide with respect. When people are paid too little for the significant work they do, it affects their self-esteem and attitudes toward work. I will admit it's the part of capitalism I hate, but nowhere is it written that the system is immutable. Honest work to which we apply considerable skill should earn respectable pay, using simple arithmetic--not some incomprehensible algorithm--to justify the bottom line. As freelancers, we can be part of the solution. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:02:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books In-Reply-To: <19990127180759.EJSC10391@listserv.cuny.edu> No, it's not part of Cindex. It's a Windows product, completely re-done and expanded from an old DOS program. It's in beta right now and I am still tinkering with it (besides indexing, I do some programming). I wrote the DOS program about 15 years ago and then because of interest, copyrighted it and distributed it as shareware. Basically, it tracks the time you spend on an index (automatically when inputting or editing with manual input for time spent off the computer); creates an invoice; manages multiple clients; links to form letters (such as Past Due Notices)and a spreadsheet (for various graph reports (if you're using Microsoft Word and Excel); and intelligently builds a database of average times for various tasks that form the basis of estimating - the more indexes you do, the more accurate the forecasting (at least that is the intent). If you have further questions, please reply off-list - this is not at all intended as advertising - but I realized after your question that I might get others so I'm taking a shortcut - Index-L moderator please forgive me. Charles Anderson -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Rebecca Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 2:05 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books Hi charles. could you please explain further what your 'timekeep,index estimator and invoice system' is all about.???? Is it part of Cindex, for example? thanks rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:47:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Per entry rate Dear "Collective Wisdom": Here's a story which will get a chuckle out of some and a "Poor, misdirected soul" from others and "What a Moron!" from others (I must admit, I fall into the third, unsympathetic category). There's "an indexer I know" (who's been indexing for about 10 years) who has just recently subscribed to the Index-L list. She's found it relaxing, informative, an avenue through which to "vent" and most important of all she's gotten a "warm and fuzzy" from being able to reach out and touch others who share the same rewards and miseries as she does. (P.S., this "indexer I know" has been indexing for about 10 years.) As a general rule she tries to charge a standard per indexable page range rather than a per entry rate because she has found that she takes less of a loss on difficult projects. Then a question from a new indexer appeared on the discussion list which basically asked the "Collective Wisdom" to detail the particulars regarding what exactly an entry consists of, i.e., Bernese Mountain Dog, 3, 20, 42 - does this count as 3 entries or one? Because she is ***intimately*** familiar with Macrex (after all, did I mention she's been indexing for TEN years!) the entries are counted by the program (the line numbers during the inputting - yup, you guessed it, this is the MORON part of the story), she replied that "Bernese Mountain Dog, 3, 20, 42" would be one entry while "Bernese Mountain dog, breeding, 3; grooming, 20; show standards, 42" would be counted as 3 entries. It only took one reply to this query from another Macrex user, indicating just the opposite for her to finally figure out that the Index Statistics option under the Utilities Menu does indeed tally both ways as a total of 3 entries. Imagine her fury with herself! But imagine also, her gratitude to the the kind soul who told her about the Index-L list and to Victoria Baker for pointing out something that should have been clearly obvious. (Yes, folks, you guessed it, I, Julie Grayson am the Moron about whom this story is told ... did I mention I've been *****INDEXING FOR TEN YEARS*****?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Reading the text first In my "Threading an Index" presentations (sometimes called "Indexing with Your Pages Closed"), I give a list of places to look for information about the book (and thus its index) before you open the book to the indexable pages. These places include the table of contents, the book jacket, the preface (often un-indexable, but worth reading), other books of similar content, old editions of the same book, and so on. The basic idea, I think, is to approach the book in the same way that a writer should "brainstorm" and "outline" their work before actually writing the full sentences. If you can capture a sense of the important ideas, and determine from those ideas some useful structures with which to organize those ideas, then you have done all the hard work. Now all you have to do is fill in the specific words. I know, that sounds too simple to be true. :-) Clearly the process will work better for some types of texts than others. A reference text book, such as a computer manual, may have very unambiguously defined vocabulary and a limited scope. Under these circumstances, it's easy to map out an approach the index. For books in the humanities or social sciences, this isn't true any longer, and more effort needs to be spent understanding the book. For the really dense books in these fields -- like journal-style collections of articles about high-level abnormal sociology :-) -- reading the book might be the best brainstorming approach available. - Seth Seth Maislin Focus Information Services smaislin@world.std.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:59:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Hernandez Subject: Re: Sample letters? Dear Jan, There are many books dealing with job hunting that contain sample letters. They won't be specific to indexing, but recommend a format in which you introduce yourself, say why you are writing, tell them what you can do for them, and end by stating you will call them within a given time frame to discuss a job. These books have titles such as "Effective Cover Letter Writing," "Guide to Resumes and Job Hunting", etc. Libraries and bookstores have tons of them. I wouldn't recommend sending a letter without calling first. I know it's hard to "cold call," but you can soften it by basically making an "information gathering" call. You want to contact a publisher and find out if they hire freelance indexers, who you should talk to about it, do they maintain a list, what rate they pay, and can you send your resume. You now have an opening line for your letter: "Dear Ms. X, Thank you for speaking with me today about freelance indexing at XXX Publishing." You need to make the call to get a person's name. Never send a letter to "To Whom It May Concern" or "Dear Managing Editor." The body of the letter should quickly state what subjects you index and your qualifications for doing those subjects (work experience, education, strong personal interest that's left you as a bit of an expert on the subject, etc.) Next you should say what you can do for them. I state what can be called my "indexing philosophy." Mine is probably a little different than someone elses, and you will have to devise your own, if you want to include it (fills up space, if nothing else!). If I spoke to the person who would hire me, I end by saying "Thank you and I hope to work with you." If I didn't speak to the correct person but was given their name by someone else in the company, I change my opening line a bit and end with "I will call you in several weeks to discuss indexing opportunities with you." Or something to that effect. I only make a follow-up call for the second circumstance, just to touch base and personalize the contact a bit. I know everyone has their own method for marketing (just as they do for marking the text), and this is just my way. Skimming through books on the subject will give you more ideas, and you can customize anything to fit your own style. (I would avoid, however, a direct mention of the fact that you are new. Just say you are an indexer and can do great things for them!) Hope this helps, and Good Luck! - Susan **************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:25:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Per entry rate In-Reply-To: <199901280148.RAA14775@dns1.mcn.org> At 08:47 PM 1/27/99 -0500, you wrote: >Dear "Collective Wisdom": > Here's a story which will get a chuckle out of some (Yes, folks, you guessed it, I, Julie Grayson am >the ... As a participant in this story I'm going to take the bandwidth to laugh and to say that I was absolutely certain I wasn't reading that post correctly, but just couldn't let it go by without checking in. However, Julie, I have almost no doubt that there is something lurking that you are going to tell me about some day, and I'm going to feel the same way . Truly this must be a large part of what Index-l is about. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:06:48 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books In-Reply-To: > Average all the elements, not just one, even include some ridiculous low > rate the client may first propose. Is this simply a question of adding the values for the parameters (x hrs @ a per hour, y pages @ b per page etc.) and dividing by the number of parameters? How does one include clients' proposed rates? There would have to be an algorithm, I would have thought. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:59:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: Utah Indexers? Rebecca Miller wrote: > I would like to hear also : if you live in Utah which society should you > go to: the Colorado one? > Rebecca Well, that would be my choice because my sister lives in Boulder :-) But someone farther south might choose Arizona. Either way is a hefty travel commitment. Debbie Wager Sandy, UT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:10:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books In-Reply-To: <199901271422.GAA08621@decibel.electriciti.com> At 08:14 AM 1/27/99 -0600, you wrote: >|I can tell you why I don't like to work that way: I like to keep payment >|separate from editorial decisions. In other words, I don't like the >|decisions I have to make as to whether to combine entries, or to add or >delete >|subheads, to have any bearing on how much I get paid for the index. Clearly, Janet makes an important point about the need to separate professional judgment from billing practices. I bill per entry and **never** make professional judgment based on billing any more than I would limit entries because more entries would appear to be "too many" because of a per-page rate. An indexer who is going to make judgment based on billing will do so whatever the billing criteria. My income is based on the quality of my work. THAT is the basis of my editorial judgment and is what generates the most work and resulting income for me.Short-term padding of an index to jack up a billing would be foolish in the long term. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Utah Indexers? >> I would like to hear also : if you live in Utah which society should you >> go to: the Colorado one? [snip] > >But someone farther south might choose Arizona. Either way is a hefty >travel commitment. Don't forget New Mexico! All three of us (NM, AZ, & CO) are active chapters with exciting programs. We're having a short meeting in Albuquerque this Saturday which includes a panel discussion on client relations and a resume swap; AZ has Enid Zafran's very exciting-sounding workshop coming up the following Saturday in Phoenix; and on May 1st we'll be presenting Do Mi Stauber's workshop "Facing the Text". (Sorry, I don't know just what Colorado has planned...!) And I know we'd all love to have you Utah indexers join us! __________________________________________________________ | | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence | | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents, | Software documentation, and Online help systems | | Tijeras, NM | 505-286-2738 | cparks@mindspring.com | | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim." |_________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:58:22 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: index question - ForeHelp Regarding this question about subheadings in a Windows help index: > > I am creating a windows 95 help index using ForeHelp 3. I have > noticed that when I enter K keywords (main keywords and subkeywords), > if I add a subkeyword to a topic, that same topic is automatically > added to the main keyword. This is not what I want. It makes no > sense because then every topic that is in the subkeywords is > automatically in the main keyword. So, when a user views the index, > the main keyword has lots of topics (and they are repeated in the > subkeywords whether I want them to be or not). > > I'd prefer for the main keyword topics to not automatically include > the topics I specify for the subkeywords. So, my question is.... > Is this a Windows help issue or a ForeHelp issue? When I called > ForeHelp, they say it is a Windows help issue. I can only assume it's a behavior of ForeHelp. As I recall, the only constraint imposed by Windows help is that at least one topic WILL BE associated with the main keyword. For example, suppose you have three topics and each topic has a keyword with a common heading: Topic A keyword list: common, Able Topic B keyword list: common, Baker Topic C keyword list: common, Charlie The index will look like this (assuming Topic A "comes first" in the RTF source): common, Able (links directly to Topic A) Baker (links directly to Topic B) Charlie (links directly to Topic C) To avoid that hideous construction, you must add the keyword "common," (yes, INCLUDING the comma) to at least one of the topics, as in: Topic A keyword list: common, Able; common, Topic B keyword list: common, Baker Topic C keyword list: common, Charlie The index will look like this: common (links directly to Topic A) Able (links directly to Topic A) Baker (links directly to Topic B) Charlie (links directly to Topic C) It certainly looks better, but it's just not logical to me. Clearly, "Baker" and "Charlie" are both conceptual subentries of "common", so I'd expect all three to be included in a list produced when I choose "common." To achieve that effect, I make the following modifications: Topic A keyword list: common, Able; common, Topic B keyword list: common, Baker; common, Topic C keyword list: common, Charlie; common, The index looks like this: common (lists Topics A, B, and C in the Topics Found dialog) Able (links directly to Topic A) Baker (links directly to Topic B) Charlie (links directly to Topic C) I realize this is precisely what you're objecting to, but it really makes the most sense to me in a Windows help index. On the other hand, once you understand how the help compiler and viewer handle index entries, no tool should force you to accept its authors' stylistic preferences. I'd be disppointed if that were true of ForeHelp, an excellent product. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:59:06 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: indexing an index entry...! Okay, this is great. I'm indexing a scholarly book, and in the introduction the author is talking about the metatopic of the book, the interaction between Communism and African American literature. He's talking about the common critical position that Communism was bad for black movements, and I find this sentence: "An entry in the index to James O. Young's Black Writers of the Thirties (1973) puts the chronic judgment succinctly: Communist party: stultifying influence of." !! The influence of indexers stretches far....Now, let's see--should I put that index entry in my index?? (I'll wait and see if the wording matches the language my author uses. Probably not, but it would be fun.) Does it ring a bell with any of you? Louisiana State University Press. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:17:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Oswaldo Ferreira Subject: Tallying per-entry rates Dear Folks, As one who has benefited so very much from Index-L, maybe it's time to toss in a thought, about tallying entry rates, in this case. I too recognize the wisdom of Janet Perlman's advice on the subject. But if circumstances require "per-entry" rates, and software calculating features are not available, this may be a rough way to calculate the number of entries. It could help to arrive at "before & after" figures of a revised index. Thinking along the lines that *decisions* are what we are really counting, Julie Grayson's calculations seem right on < Prostate cancer, 34, 82, 74, 108 >> as four decisions, and (or one address as I sometimes think) What strikes me, is that all these decisions are separated by punctuation- usually commas or semi-colons. So to "Count-the-Commas" (and/or semi-colons), is to count the entries and I just tried a nice little test in Word 95. Using "find-and-replace-all", I (temporarily) removed the commas from a test index, read (and recorded) the tally that Word supplies at the end of the task, and then immediately RESTORED the punctuation with the Undo command. A similar search could calculate cross-references. So find-and-replace-all (commas or semi-colons or whatever) Read the task report UNDO immediately to restore whatever punctuation you tested Yes, names and inversions are a problem, but perhaps a handy little formula can be found to discount such commas. In a separate name index a line-count would tell you how many inversions exist. No further thoughts on the subject, but I hope it helps, and others will make more suggestions. Best to all, Carol Ferreira Surrey, B.C., Canada ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:18:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: Re: indexing an index entry...! It is fun to find scholarly references to indexes. Last year I indexed a tome about the history of the book. There were two mentions of indexes to atlases, so (he! he!), of course I put them in the index! There were also entries for frontispieces and title pages. Margie Towery Towery Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:06:19 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Need advice on first project I have been a subscriber to Index-L since last May and am on lesson 7 of my USDA course. I have not started serious marketing since I wanted to have something for my resume. I finally talked my son, Eric Shelman, into letting me index his book, which is to be published in April. I now have in hand the manuscript with barely a week in which to prepare the index. The book presents some special problems since it is a based-on-fact book detailing the story of the first child abuse victim, Mary Ellen Wilson. It is also the story of Henry Bergh's founding of the ASPCA. Their stories come together when the ASPCA rescues Mary Ellen from her pitiful situation. Many famous people are depicted in the book with all items factual. Fictional scenarios, explained in an author's note, also fill in between known facts for continuity of the story. In anticipation of doing this book, I bought Hazel Bell's "Indexing Biographies and Other Stories of Human Lives." While helpful, I will still have some problems. Mary Ellen is mentioned on nearly every page in the sections about her. Most of these would go under a subheading such as "abuse of" but the strings could get very long. Bell says long strings are unavoidable in biographies. If any of you have the time to give me the benefit of your experience, I would certainly appreciate it. I know how pressed for time you are, but I have also had lots of helpful advice from many of you on becoming an indexer. Thank you for any help you can give me. Oh, yes--how do I treat the fictional people, put their names in quotation marks with a headnote in the beginning? Several illustrations are in the middle of the book, but they are paginated with captions. However (against my advice), my son did not put a table of contents in his book and there is no list of illustrations. Should I just list the subject, such as Bergh, Henry (il, p220) or is there a better way? There are pictures of Mary Ellen before and after her rescue. BTW, my son says I have only two pages for the index! I believe I can get more by having him remove his order blanks in the back! Jean Middleton Inland Empire Indexing jeanmidd@prodigy.net