Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9902B" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:50:27 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: e-fax is coming The email fax service that Jackie Flenner describes has been available in Australia from Telstra for some time -- it's called FaxBank. For those Australian subscribers who are interested, go to http://find/telstra.com.au , type in "faxstream enhanced", click "find", and then click on "Telstra Faxstream Enhanced Facilities". Scroll down to "The flexibility of Faxbank." I can't provide you with a direct URL because they use frames, so it's impossible to bookmark or access directly. (Moral: Think twice about using frames on your own Website!) Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:47:25 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: About HyperIndex (I tried to send this message privately, but without success: Glenda or Jeremy, please forward if necessary) Troy Saltzgiver: You have probably been given an inaccurate reference to my review of HyperIndex 6.1 in the Australian Society of Indexers Newsletter of March 1998. I recommended it, with some minor reservations, and I recommend the current improved version (6.1.3) without any reservations at all, except that it isn't a stand-alone program -- you need HyperCard 2.3+ to run it. Unless you already have a suitable version of HyperCard, you will need to add the cost of acquiring that to the cost of acquiring HyperIndex (which itself is quite inexpensive -- US$125). The only alternatives for Macintosh users are Cindex for the Macintosh (a good deal more expensive, and I think no more user-friendly) or else getting bridging software which allows you to run PC programs on the Mac. PC programs such as Macrex and Sky Index can be run on the Mac with the aid of such software, I believe, but (so I understand) with some loss of "functionality". I am very willing to forward you an electronic version of my AusSI Newsletter review if you would like to have it (it's already a bit out of date). Please communicate with me privately if you want it, or would like merely to discuss HyperIndex with me. I shall be very happy to pass on full information about my experience with it. Its earlier versions were a bit rough around the edges, but now it's a neat, slick program. Simon Cauchi, MA, PhD, ANZLA, Registered Indexer (AusSI) Freelance Editor and Indexer, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:10:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ellen Brink Organization: uakron.edu Subject: annotated bibliographies Everyone: I am currently working on an annotated bibliography. Supposedly there is no limit on the the length of the index. The annotations are quite dense, and in many cases I find myself assigning 10+ entries per annotation. I read (in a book by Langridge) that indexes to bibliographies are much like those to periodical articles -- that is, not too detailed. However, this is a scholarly publication and because some annotations condense an entire book, and everything mentioned seems important, I am not sure how to approach this. Any advice or insight would be much appreciated. Ellen Brink bellen1@uakron.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:24:00 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Organization: W W Walker Web Development Subject: Web indexing - any news out in the field? hi Is there anyone doing Web indexing and making any money? Please email me direct. I believe there is sporadic work out there but it is very competitive. Cheers Dwight -- -------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker WWWalker Web Development, PO Box 288, Wentworthville, Sydney, 2145, Australia http://www.wwwalker.com.au, http://www.speakeasy.org/~dwight (US mirror) tel +61-2-96371649, mob +61-412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:22:42 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: annotated bibliographies In-Reply-To: <199902081309.IAA26829@mail6.bellsouth.net> |I am currently working on an annotated bibliography. Supposedly there |is no limit on the the length of the index. The annotations are quite |dense, and in many cases I find myself assigning 10+ entries per |annotation. I read (in a book by Langridge) that indexes to |bibliographies are much like those to periodical articles -- that is, |not too detailed. However, this is a scholarly publication and because |some annotations condense an entire book, and everything mentioned seems |important, I am not sure how to approach this. Any advice or insight |would be much appreciated. | |Ellen Brink |bellen1@uakron.edu I've only done one of these and it was a few years ago, but I stuck pretty much to one or two subject entries per annotation -- just the most major topic. And you would need very, very few subheadings -- if any. Is this book in "classified" order by large topics? Are the bibliographic entries numbered? If so, you will presumably have to do a full author/title index (or maybe two separate ones, for this kind of volume), keyed to the entry numbers. If the volume is purely alphabetical by author (which would be unusual), then you'd only need a title index plus the subjects. Book-length annotated bibliographies are one of the very few kinds of publications for which I *would* recommend separate indexes for author, title, and subject, because each is then much easier for the user to skim through. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If a man has any connection with Texas, Harvard, or the U.S. Marine Corps, he'll let you know it in the first five minutes of conversation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:32:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Professional ethics an oxymoron? What an interesting discussion! I have been involved with large ugly organizations, including a national charity of all things. I understand what you say about the corrupting influence organizing can have. However, I also have experience with good organizations that work well and are good for all involved. The good category includes a university and a for profit company. I believe we can organize and keep our integrity and camaraderie. Off the top of my head I can think of two things that would lead to a healthy good organization: 1) Sound governance and 2) A clear division of labor. Any other ideas, anyone? Nell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:40:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: ASI Certificatiion If someone wants to start a Board of Ceritifed Indexers, I have no trouble with that idea. But that organization would have a very different mission from ASI's. The certification issue is > off-track within ASI's mission, in my opinion ... Until ASI handles its > stated mission better (doing more publicity, education, and marketing), we > should be wary of tackling new projects, especially one like certification > of members. > > Barbara E. Cohen Barbara makes a valid suggestion. As a legal indexer, one of the subjects that we have to index again and again (and again and again...) in every state code is the title on Professions and Occupations. Yes, the TITLE, as in at least one entire code volume of regulations! Anyone who thinks that certification is something that we could pick up on the side or start with a volunteer organization is woefully misinformed about the time and energy involved. Licensure and certification for any profession is a bureaucratic nightmare and is usually handled by a separate board. This is the kind of thing that can turn into a hydra-- the minute you cut off one head, ten more grow in its place. The board would quickly find itself bogged down in not only the extremely valid arguments already raised here, but things like should they or should they not certify particular courses/tools/training aids (many professional and occuapational boards do-- not just the big ones like law schools and medical schools, but things like cosmetology schools, barbering classes, continuing education courses, etc.) I think that if anyone decides to pursue certification, they should form a board separate from ASI and work from there. And incidentally, this would never be more than a cosmetic certification unless the board got authority from the state legislatures to control the certification process, which I do not forsee any legislature going along with. Therefore, it would never be more than a "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval," so we might want to ask ourselves whether this is worth the time, tears and headache for something of such questionable value. Just my two (well, four!) cents... -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:17:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Vaughn Subject: Too many questions by Newbie Magazine Indexer This is my first indexing project and my first email to this list. I am trying to help a local editor prepare an index for 50 years of a music periodical. I have looked at four music periodical indexes to get some general information, but I have a lot of questions. First, the periodical has some inconsistency problems, e.g., duplicate volume numbers, some years the magazine had page numbers that continued from issue to issue and other years (most) the each issue starts with page 1. Should we use Nov-Dec 1972:2, or Vol. XX (Misprinted as Vol. XXI), Nov-Dec 1972, p. 2 or? The magazine frequently has photos or pen and ink drawings on the cover. How are these referenced? Nov-Dec 1972, cover? We're trying to decide whether to organize the index in 10 year increments and then combine all of these into a 50 year index or just go for the fifty. At this point in time, the editor and I are doing this without pay. Hopefully, we'll be able to get a grant. Sorry to ask so many questions and need so much basic info--including what computer program should I use other than Microsoft Word. Thanks for any help. Barbara in New Orleans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:24:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: ASI Certificatiion To everyone: I agree with Sharon. ASI's mission does not mesh well with the implementation of certification. I still implore everyone to think about whether certification would actually bring you more money. If not, you will be spending money to be certified and more money to keep up the certification. The purpose of certification is to separate the wheat from the chaff, the amateurs from the professionals, etc. In scientific endeavors, certification has a better chance of working because the discipline is more standardized, e.g., being certified to be a doctor. In our case, as I have mentioned before, indexing is a creative process and, hence, certification is more slippery and less viable. No matter what, this discussion helps us understand the boundaries of our outlook on certification, so we aid ourselves in getting a clearer view of the situation by "talking" it out. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:26:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Professional ethics an oxymoron? In a message dated 99-02-08 09:37:13 EST, you write: << ... two things that would lead to a healthy good organization: 1) Sound governance and 2) A clear division of labor. >> I agree heartily with 'sound goverance' because it would include support for member nurturance. However 'division of labor,' whether clear or muddled, seems to promote exclusionary feelings such as, "that's not my job," and deprive members of the very nurturance health requires. When a problem arises at any level, the person/people closest to that problem need to address it promptly, not refer it to a committee or another level, up or down the hierarchy of divided functions. People closest to the job know it best; encourage them to deal with it and grow. That's healthy. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:09:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Too many questions by Newbie Magazine Indexer At 10:17 AM 2/8/99 EST, you wrote: >This is my first indexing project and my first email to this list. I am >trying to help a local editor prepare an index for 50 years of a music >periodical. I have looked at four music periodical indexes to get some >general information, but I have a lot of questions. First, the periodical has >some inconsistency problems, e.g., duplicate volume numbers, some years the >magazine had page numbers that continued from issue to issue and other years >(most) the each issue starts with page 1. Should we use Nov-Dec 1972:2, or >Vol. XX (Misprinted as Vol. XXI), Nov-Dec 1972, p. 2 or? The magazine >frequently has photos or pen and ink drawings on the cover. How are these >referenced? Nov-Dec 1972, cover? We're trying to decide whether to organize >the index in 10 year increments and then combine all of these into a 50 year >index or just go for the fifty. At this point in time, the editor and I are >doing this without pay. Hopefully, we'll be able to get a grant. Sorry to >ask so many questions and need so much basic info--including what computer >program should I use other than Microsoft Word. Thanks for any help. Barbara >in New Orleans Hi, good luck. You are doing the right thing so far by referring to other indexes. As far as software I can't sing the praises enough for Cindex (for windows) which is so versatile and easy to use. Contact: Indexing Research, http://www.indexres.com support@indexres.com M. J. Barczak Washington, D.C. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:04:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Cybersillies and certification Nick Koenig wrote in response to my request for a term expressing those investing unnatural powers in computers: >cybersillies (those irrationally enthalled by > computers) Thanks for the interesting terms Nick. One thing about cybersillies that I've noticed is that often they are cognitively unreachable since they don't understand how things were done before computers. Thus a cybersilly might say to me: "check this software out that does xyz!! (replacing some long-established art that's millenniums old) Isn't that great". To which I might reply, "Oh that's certainly elegant but the computer-implemented solution is only half as good as the non-computer-implemented solution, and in addition intoduces several subtle problems not seen in the long-established art (non-computer) solution". To which the cybersilly simply repeats his first sentence, but this time louder as if the problem is with me and perhaps if he just spoke up, you know as if I was hearing-impaired, I would appreciate what a great advance for human society it is to be able to do this by computer. Long ago I adopted a "three strikes and you're out" policy about dealing with the cognitively-impaired. So hoping that perhaps they are of a mathematical bent I'll try laying it all out in numbers. Of course that only makes them repeat their first sentence even louder and now they are clearly annoyed at me so I just walk away muttering "cybersilly" and they leave muttering "Luddite". They seemed to have become cognitively programmed that a computer solution is _by definition_ the best way. It is this sort of misunderstanding that we will increasingly have to deal with as indexers. I have observed that essentially 100% of people who have no direct knowledge of indexing but are Web savvy seem to think "oh you mean Yahoo doesn't just index everything?" when you tell them about what we do. However the good news is I can usually make them access their understanding about how hard it is to find stuff on the Web, the number of false hits, the possibility of nonconclusiveness of search [i.e., a negative Web search doesn't mean the stuff isn't there] which many never even consider until it's explained to them, etc. With this understanding I can very soon convince them that at least in some cases humans are better. On the other hand I have come to accept that automatic indexing can work just fine for some things, and perhaps take the load off human indexers so they can better deal with the explosion of information available today needing good indexes. I agree with numerous others on the certification thread that ASI should first address improving public awareness of what we do and its other mission statements. To introduce certification into a profession that many people increasingly see as unnecessary seems a little strange, although then again maybe it would make them understand us better. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:16:10 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: About HyperIndex Simon Cauchi wrote: > > PC programs such as Macrex and Sky Index can be run on the Mac with > the aid of [Windows emulation software--such as SoftWindows and > Virtual PC] but ... with some loss of "functionality". No loss of functionality, I expect, but a significant reduction in performance. This is because the emulation software eats up a portion of the Mac processor's power, reducing the power available to run the application (such as Macrex, Sky Index, or HTML Indexer). This usually means that the application is less responsive than it would be on a comparably powered Windows PC. I'm told the reduction is unacceptable if you're playing an action game, but it may not have a noticeable effect on indexing software. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:45:56 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing Dwight Walker wrote: > > Is there anyone doing Web indexing and making any money? I think indexers' best strategy is to concentrate on indexing web sites. Special-interest indexes of the greater Web (a complete list of sites pertaining to cancer research, for example) are difficult and ambitious, and seem likely to remain relatively rare. Web-wide searching is a much less expensive solution--and may even be better, in many cases--than an index. But web sites are sprouting like weeds. Large and small, most would benefit greatly from a comprehensive, professionally compiled index. With the right knowledge and tools--and the right attitude toward legitimate business concerns about initial cost and maintenance--I believe indexers can a provide a valuable service, increase their "visibility," and make a good living, too. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:27:24 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Indexing for University Presses Hi everyone, I have been indexing for a year and a half. So far I have indexed books only for commercial publishers. I have sent my resume to lots of University Presses, but none has offered me any indexing project so far. Whenever I talk to the managing editors of the Presses, I am told that the authors prepare their own index and when the author does not want to prepare the index for some reason, only then we use freelancers. They also say that the author contacts the indexer directly whenever he wants to get the index done by a freelancer. I DO want to get into scholarly indexing, but I can't until somebody gives me an actual indexing project to do. (BTW, I have created some samples of scholarly indexes which I always mail alongwith my resume). So my questions are....... 1....I know lot of indexers on the Index-L do work for Presses. If so many indexers are working for the presses, that means so many authors are not preparing the index on their own for one reason or the other. So how do you get indexing projects for scholarly books? 2....what am I doing wrong as far as my marketing efforts for University Presses are concerned? 3....do any of you recommend mailing resumes directly to the authors? Any suggestions and helpful tips would be greatly appreciated. Kind Regards, Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:56:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Subject: Re: Indexing for University Presses I've indexed a couple of books for professors on this campus, and the job has always arisen through serendipity: I'll be chatting with someone about his/her research at a meeting or at the reference desk and the topic of his/her book will arise. At which point I mention tell them that I index and offer the names of other profs who could give references. When I'm ready to expand (later this year), I will send an appropriate indexers business card to targeted departments, not a r=E9sum=E9. Most p= rof I've encountered don't even think about an indexer needing special training, but they feel comforted if they can talk to a trusted colleague before turning their "baby" over to you. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:02:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing for University Presses Manjit wrote: << 1....I know lot of indexers on the Index-L do work for Presses. If so many indexers are working for the presses, that means so many authors are not preparing the index on their own for one reason or the other. So how do you get indexing projects for scholarly books? 2....what am I doing wrong as far as my marketing efforts for University Presses are concerned? 3....do any of you recommend mailing resumes directly to the authors? >> There are quite a few university presses (and independent scholarly presses) that hire indexers directly--you just have to find them. Keep calling presses and offering your services until you find somebody who wants them. Another way is to market yourself through your local university (if you have one). Put up flyers in the departments of the fields with which you're familiar. I do have one caveat, though--scholarly books are much more difficult to index than textbooks. If you haven't yet indexed one, don't offer your services until you've practiced. Find a scholarly book in a field you know about and try indexing it; see if you can pay an experienced scholarly indexer to review your index. Then when you find a press that hires indexers you can be confident that you'll be able to meet their needs. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:08:59 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: American Society of Indexers (ASI) Wilson Award reminder Reminder: Entries for the Wilson Award need to arrive at the ASI administrative office by March 1. The ASI/H.W. Wilson Company Indexing award was established in 1978 to honor excellence in indexing. It includes a $1000 cash prize. Submit entries to ASI Administrative Office, P.O. Box 39366, Phoenix AZ 85069-9366 L. Pilar Wyman Board Liaison, ASI Wilson Award Committee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:08:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah Huse Subject: Indexing for University Presses Manjit stated that some university presses had told her that the authors are doing their own indexes. Certainly, this is true in some cases. But over the past ten years most of my indexing has been for university presses. I seldom deal directly with the author. The response to my original mailing was spread over a number of years. I once got a call from someone who still had my letter in their files after seven years! It isn't practical to wait that long for responses, of course, but it does show that it may take a while for your offer to match their need. After I started, most of the new university press clients came from referrals from editors at presses I had worked with. Editors talk to each other. One suggestion might be to tailor your introduction letter to the presses that interest you the most. Stress not only your experience in scholarly materials, but also in subject matters of their sphere, making that as precise as is honest and applicable.....if you can't really claim experience in English history, you might promote experience in "political and social histories." This takes more time, but for a few presses of special interest to you, it might be worth it. I have found that it may take a while, but if you can get your materials in their file, they may consider you when their scheduling gets tight. Just one thought. Good luck. Hannah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:24:51 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Re: Indexing for University Presses There will be two programs dealing with scholarly publishing at the Indianapolis meeting. One will be a roundtable on Thursday on scholarship publishing led by Martin White, who does a lot of scholarly work. And then on Friday there will be a panel presentation with representives from Ohio State University Press, U. of Wisconsin Press, and the U. of Chicago Press. This would be one avenue of learning more about scholarly publishing. I would also imagine that the Scholarly SIG will be meeting during this time. Sandi -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Huse To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 12:12 PM Subject: Indexing for University Presses >Manjit stated that some university presses had told her that the authors are >doing their own indexes. Certainly, this is true in some cases. But over the >past ten years most of my indexing has been for university presses. I seldom >deal directly with the author. The response to my original mailing was spread >over a number of years. I once got a call from someone who still had my >letter in their files after seven years! It isn't practical to wait that long >for responses, of course, but it does show that it may take a while for your >offer to match their need. After I started, most of the new university press >clients came from referrals from editors at presses I had worked with. >Editors talk to each other. > >One suggestion might be to tailor your introduction letter to the presses that >interest you the most. Stress not only your experience in scholarly >materials, but also in subject matters of their sphere, making that as precise >as is honest and applicable.....if you can't really claim experience in >English history, you might promote experience in "political and social >histories." This takes more time, but for a few presses of special interest >to you, it might be worth it. > >I have found that it may take a while, but if you can get your materials in >their file, they may consider you when their scheduling gets tight. > >Just one thought. Good luck. > >Hannah > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:38:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Professional ethics an oxymoron? In-Reply-To: <199902080506.XAA17054@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I can see that a 'professional' attitude might be necessary to maintain >cohesion and lobbying power in a workgroup with tens or hundreds of >thousands of members, just as it is in the armed forces. But to see it >promoted in a tiny profession like indexing is rather sad. It's as if we're >ashamed of being so friendly and reasonable and nice when everyone else is >fighting over the money trough. > Since when are professionalism and friendliness mutually exclusive? The doctors and lawyers I know who are pleasant aren't any less professional for that. If by promoting professionalism in indexing, we mean to promote things like: quality indexes delivering on time charging the going rate dressing neatly for meetings I don't see how that's inconsistent with being friendly. I guess I don't accept the characterization of professionalism as "fighting over the money trough." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:30:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Note on Subheadings In a message dated 99-02-05 23:37:35 EST, smaislin@world.std.com writes: > So which is better, "Nile River" or "Nile River, Moses found in"? It > depends on the context of the book. Seth, Thanks so much for paraphrasing Leise's First Rule of Indexing: "There are no rules, only contexts." Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:36:40 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith Owen Richards Subject: Re: Indexing for University Presses Manjit wrote regarding how to break in to academic indexing. While I haven't exactly done this yet either, I hope to as well, and thought I'd offer my initial strategies for doing so, for discussion among those of us trying to get started. The catch-22 is, of course, that it helps to have experience in a field (say academic indexing) before one can get work in it. How to get that experience? First, focus your search on _young_ professors...those with newly minted Ph.D.s who are shopping their dissertations to publishers. These people are incredibly stressed out and overworked, and many of them would prefer to _not_ have to index their own work. They are also less likely to think like the "old school" profs who are all to happy to farm the work out to: a) their wives (who they always give a shout out to in the acknowledgments for help in typing the manuscript); or b) their graduate students, who they mistakenly view as a source of free labour. Seriously, younger professors are _much_ less likely to think that their graduate assistants (if they even have any at this stage of their career) are best served by picking up their dry-cleaning or preparing their indexes. Now, these dissertations, when turned into books, will need an index. However, you could quite easily index the dissertation as it is, to give the author confirmation that you can handle the job. If they like what you have done with the dissertation, then they should be willing to offer you the job when the work goes to press. Now, there are downsides to this. First, you're working for free (initially). I think that the potential payoff may be worth it, though. Secondly, I would recommend that you make sure that the work is being actively considered, and by what press. Lots of dissertations _do_ get published, but many fall of the face of the earth. Then you can prepare a sample index to the publisher's specifications. Anyway, this is the strategy that I'm pursuing. I've got two projects that look like they'll be published soon, and an agreement from the authors that they'll go with me if the work is good. Now comes the hard part! Any suggestions/comments/criticisms? ------------------------------------------------------------- Keith O. Richards richardk@storm.simpson.edu "L'avenir dure longtemps" L. Althusser ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Risa Freeman Subject: Re: annotated bibliographies At 08:10 AM 2/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >Everyone: > >I am currently working on an annotated bibliography. Supposedly there >is no limit on the the length of the index. The annotations are quite >dense, and in many cases I find myself assigning 10+ entries per >annotation. I read (in a book by Langridge) that indexes to >bibliographies are much like those to periodical articles -- that is, >not too detailed. However, this is a scholarly publication and because >some annotations condense an entire book, and everything mentioned seems >important, I am not sure how to approach this. Any advice or insight >would be much appreciated. > >Ellen Brink >bellen1@uakron.edu > Dear Ellen, I would think that the extent and depth of your index would very much depend on the requirements of your client. Your instinct that everything mentioned seems important is quite reasonable, for the very reasons you state. The statement from the book that you refer to may well be true for some indexes, but would not be true for all. For an example of a heavily indexed annotated bibliography, see RILM Abstracts of Music Literature, a international bibliography of scholarly literature on music. RILM indexes every relevant topic within each abstract, according to a thesaurus of indexable topics. All personal names are indexed. Some headings have required subheadings, for the purpose of organizing large headings, and strings may therefore end up with several subheadings. Of course, this type of indexing may be far more detailed than what you need, depending, I would think, on how broad or narrow is the topic of the bibliography itself. Risa Freeman RILM Abstracts of Music Literature ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:05:20 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing for University Presses In a message dated 99-02-08 12:30:46 EST, ramindexing@hotmail.com writes: > > 1....I know lot of indexers on the Index-L do work for Presses. If so > many indexers are working for the presses, that means so many authors > are not preparing the index on their own for one reason or the other. So > how do you get indexing projects for scholarly books? > > 2....what am I doing wrong as far as my marketing efforts for University > Presses are concerned? > > 3....do any of you recommend mailing resumes directly to the authors? > 1. My first indexes were done working directly with editors at university presses. I seem to be getting some referrals from editor to editor. The last direct mail marketing I did was to about 20 university press editors. I heard back from three of them and got work from one. The UPs I work with seem to recommend indexers to their authors rather than requiring authors to come up with them on their own. On the other hand, I have also worked directly for several authors. A few of those jobs were references from other indexers who were unable to take on the job, and some I got because I teach the introduction to indexing course for the University of Chicago Publishing Program, which has a high profile in the Chicago area. 2. Networking is important. Do you know other indexers of scholarly material? Have you let them know of your availability or given them samples of your materials? Are you an ASI member? Do you attend local chapter meetings? All are important ways to spread the word about your availability. 3. The problem with direct mailing to authors is that most authors do only one book - their dissertation. Thereafter it's scholarly articles. But you might try regular ads in nearby campus newspapers, for example. Certainly tell any academics you know that you are available for indexing. Give them your business cards or brochures. Chances are they will remember you when someone asks them about finding an indexer. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:14:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Professional ethics an oxymoron? > Since when are professionalism and friendliness mutually exclusive? The > doctors and lawyers I know who are pleasant aren't any less professional > for that. If by promoting professionalism in indexing, we mean to promote > things like: > > quality indexes > delivering on time > charging the going rate > dressing neatly for meetings > Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but here is where we diverge. How, exactly, would certification by a non-regulatory group possibly promote any of these four things mentioned? Quality indexes-- What is a "quality index"? Who makes that determination? The ongoing thread (that seems to have died down for the moment) about the use of subheads is a great example. Some people strongly advocate using them; some loathe them on sight and use them only when forced to. Neither is wrong, it's just two different ways of doing something. There are no objective criteria out there that determine whether or not an index is of "good quality." If the customer is satisfied and the readers can find what they are looking for, the quality is good enough, regardless of how we as 'professional indexers' would rate the index. Different customers and different subjects require different standards. This is a big can of worms that neither ASI nor some unformed professional board could ever hope to clarify. You can't determine "quality" when there are no objective standards. Delivering on time-- How on earth would certification help with this? How would you envision testing for this in the certification process? How would you account for failures to deliver on time that were outside the control of the indexer (publisher changes or delays, postal worker strike, acts of God, etc.)? Surely the market will weed out those who fail to deliver on time rather quickly. Charging the going rate-- What is the going rate? What about people who are willing to accept less than the going rate? What about people who are currently earning more than the going rate and would have to take a pay cut if word of the "going rate" ever filtered back to their customers? What about specialty indexers? Again-- a huge can of worms with no corral in sight. Dressing neatly for meetings-- Surely you jest. Who on earth in our society would we christen the Fashion Guru responsible for making THAT determination? First of all, again, there is nothing in the certification process that could possibly address this in any kind of a reasonable fashion and secondly, this, too, varies considerably from region to region and situation to situation. No professional organization regulates clothing except for some medical professions, and even that varies from hospital to hospital. Can you imagine the repercussions if we were to revoke someone's certification because they failed to dress appropriately for business meetings?! That whisking sound you hear is the sound of dozens of labor law attorneys rubbing their parchment-like hands together in anticipation of an as-yet-untapped source of income. I strongly suggest that the pro-certification forces lingering out there examine a professions and occupations code and read exactly what kind of things that professional societies can and can't regulate. I think you'll start to see why some of us think that this is a bad idea. Here are some you can browse for free (incidentally, we in Indexing had nothing to do with how the indexes were put up on the web site, so I apologize in advance for them). Go to our website: http://www.lexislawpublishing.com/ Click on Legal Resources Select a code and browse through the Professions and Occupations title (in Delaware it's Title 24, for the rest you can find them, I'm sure) I hope this helps... -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:15:23 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Indexing for University Presses Locatelli@AOL.COM wrote: > > > 3. The problem with direct mailing to authors is that most authors do only one > book - their dissertation. Thereafter it's scholarly articles. But you might > try regular ads in nearby campus newspapers, for example. Certainly tell any > academics you know that you are available for indexing. Give them your > business cards or brochures. Chances are they will remember you when someone > asks them about finding an indexer. Here's a thought. Many of these scholarly articles are re-written as chapters for books with many contributors. In many cases, the "editor" of these books is one of the contributors and has some say over the indexer. Or might ask other contributors for names. Just keep plugging away Although I've not tried this yet, the web might yield names of professors in various specialties at different universities. They can be quickly and easily contacted by e-mail or phone. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:38:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Software acquisition In-Reply-To: <199902052119.QAA10817@carriage.chesco.com> I'm in the process of negotiations for indexing an employees benefits manual for a New York bank, working through a consultant (not my preference as a way to work, but it is a change of pace) I have SKY, Macrex, WordPerfect, Word and PageMaker as possible software for my work. However, the corporate management may want me to provide embedded indexing using Quark. I'd appreciate knowing how others deal with the cost implications. Have you had publishers obtain the software, consider it an addition to the invoice, or ?? Thanks, Nancy Guenther ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:00:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anna Biunno Subject: Re: Web indexing - any news out in the field? Hello Dwight, Until large corporations begin charging a fee each time you access their site to view or download their proprietary information, it is very difficult to persuade them to pay you for your services (i.e., Web Indexing). Companies still believe there is no direct correlation between their website and an increase in revenues (especially those companies who don't necessarily sell you a product but rather a service or consultation). Many companies like to see a corresponding revenue to their expense, otherwise a project is not worth their while. However, I do believe the day when they begin charging is getting closer. Our company has gone to this method when they realized that they were no longer getting orders for their publications because everyone was downloading information from the website. We now charge for the time a surfer logs onto our server and "peruses." Once a company understands the importance of information, they will - categorize it, classify it, label it and ultimately charge you for it. That's when you come in. You just have to wait it out. However, if you learn Web Indexing in anticipation of this trend, you'll be ahead of the curve/ This will give you plenty of time to make some money before everyone else catches on. I went to a web indexing seminar in NY presented by Kevin Broccoli. (Kevin, if you are out there, speak up; I might be off the mark, but I doubt it.) Anna Biunno ABiunno@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:03:21 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Web indexing - any news out in the field? Dear Dwight, I advise indexers to go for the pay sites. The search capability at my company's pay web site is excellent. What I showed you while I was your tutee was the free stuff because I didn't know about the pay sites. Remember, we agreed it looked like it had been designed by techies. The search engine at the pay site, on the other hand, is excellent. There are lots of little windows dividing the search in meaningful ways. What a boon for indexers! I changed from a job indexing hard copy into hard copy to a library job. As a librarian, I rarely consult my old indexing. The pay site is very well designed (I wish I could say I designed it but I didn't. The current indexer has the energy and talent to move into that role if she jumps a few organizational hoops.) Nell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:14:25 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Australian electronic journals - database indexers I'd like to discover which Australian Internet journals are indexed in non-Australian databases. The National Library of Australia is looking to expand its e-journal preservation archiving, by trying to ensure all Australian e-journals indexed within Australia or overseas are archived through our PANDORA project. This means that even if the publisher's site disappears or issues are removed from that site at a future time, copies will remain in the national archive of electronic journals, and will continue to be accessible. The Library is also giving the items permanent names, which can then be included in database citations along with the original URL address. If you can provide any information about titles indexed for non-Australian databases I'd love to hear from you. If you want any information about PANDORA, the National Library of Australia's internet archiving project, go to http://www.nla.gov.au/pandora/ for both a description of the project and a list of the journals so far selected. Archiving is not carried out until the publishers have been consulted and permission is given. Sandra Henderson Manager National Bibliographic Publications National Library of Australia shenders@nal.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:17:31 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Correction: Australian electronic journals - database indexers Correction to preceding message about archiving of electronic journals. If you want to provide any information direct to me, my email is shenders@nla.gov.au (was given incorrectly as shenders@nal.gov.au) - a case of the fingers being faster than the brain! > Sandra Henderson > Manager > National Bibliographic Publications > National Library of Australia > shenders@nla.gov.au > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:16:35 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Cybersillies and certification Well, this description prompts me to coin another term: cybercilious: haughtily dismissive of any suggestion that computers may be inferior to humans Oh, well, maybe "cybercretin" says it all. Nick Koenig indexer@INETCOM.NET wrote: > > Nick Koenig wrote in response to my request for a term expressing those > investing unnatural powers in computers: > > >cybersillies (those irrationally enthalled by > > computers) > > Thanks for the interesting terms Nick. One thing about cybersillies > that I've noticed is that often they are cognitively unreachable since they > don't understand how things were done before computers. > Thus a cybersilly might say to me: "check this software out that > does xyz!! (replacing some long-established art that's millenniums old) > Isn't that great". To which I might reply, "Oh that's certainly elegant but > the computer-implemented solution is only half as good as the > non-computer-implemented solution, and in addition intoduces several subtle > problems not seen in the long-established art (non-computer) solution". To > which the cybersilly simply repeats his first sentence, but this time louder > as if the problem is with me and perhaps if he just spoke up, you know as if > I was hearing-impaired, I would appreciate what a great advance for human > society it is to be able to do this by computer. Long ago I adopted a > "three strikes and you're out" policy about dealing with the > cognitively-impaired. So hoping that perhaps they are of a mathematical > bent I'll try laying it all out in numbers. Of course that only makes them > repeat their first sentence even louder and now they are clearly annoyed at > me so I just walk away muttering "cybersilly" and they leave muttering > "Luddite". They seemed to have become cognitively programmed that a > computer solution is _by definition_ the best way. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Job opportunity: contract indexer All -- I received the following e-mail message from a software developer = in Ukiah, CA. My schedule is quite full for the next few months, but perhap= s some of you might want to bid on this indexing project. Note: Please do *not* contact me about this position. The person to contact is Danny Ramsey (danny@rebol.com) after you review the Web page referenced in his note below.. *******************FORWARDED MESSAGE******************* REBOL Technologies is seeking a contract indexer for an upcoming project in MS Word or WordPro. If interested, please visit our web site (below) and email me your proposal. -- = Danny Ramsey, REBOL Writer Download your FREE copy of REBOL Messaging Language at http://www.rebol.com REBOL Quick Start, User's, and Expert's Guides are at http://www.rebol.com/docs.html *******************END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE******************* Lori Lathrop (LoriLathrop@compuserve.com) Lathrop Media Services, Charlotte, NC Web site - http://idt.net/~lathro19 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:55:45 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Professional ethics an oxymoron? In-Reply-To: <199902081841.KAA10619@mole.electriciti.com> I thank Carol Roberts for expressing my view better than I could have. Best, Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erin Pierce Subject: Re: Software acquisition In-Reply-To: <199902082241.RAA20677@alphaclp.clpgh.org> Nancy - I am currently indexing a corporate training manual, and the firm that hired me wants a tagged index in Framemaker. We discussed the different possibilities of me getting the software, and they offered to allow me to put it on my computer - at the end of the job they are going to come and take it off (I expect to be working on this [roject on and off for several months at least). That way they are not violating their licensing aggreement - and do not have to put out the money for another copy of the software. An option to consider... Erin On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Nancy A. Guenther wrote: > I'm in the process of negotiations for indexing an employees benefits > manual for a New York bank, working through a consultant (not my preference > as a way to work, but it is a change of pace) > > I have SKY, Macrex, WordPerfect, Word and PageMaker as possible software > for my work. However, the corporate management may want me to provide > embedded indexing using Quark. > > I'd appreciate knowing how others deal with the cost implications. Have you > had publishers obtain the software, consider it an addition to the invoice, > or ?? > > Thanks, > > Nancy Guenther > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:44:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: Web indexing - any news out in the field? Yes, Anna, I would say you're right on the mark. One thing worth mentioning, though, is that if one learns how to create Web indexes, they can create indexes for company intranets. Since intranets are not really designed specifically to make a profit, but to aid information access to company employees, corporations may be more interested in having information access devices developed for their intranets than for their Web sites. This is especially true when it can be demonstrated that their employees are being paid hefty salaries or wages, yet spend a good deal of time searching the company intranet trying to access the information that they need. Thus, without a good intranet index, they are actually loosing money! Lori Lathrop, for one, either is working on an intranet index presently, or has one coming up in the future...so there is some work out there. One last thing...an intranet index can be a huge job. And since the indexer needs to continue to update the index indefinitely, the job could go be permanent. Kevin Broccoli -----Original Message----- From: Anna Biunno To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Web indexing - any news out in the field? >Hello Dwight, > >Until large corporations begin charging a fee each time you access their site >to view or download their proprietary information, it is very difficult to >persuade them to pay you for your services (i.e., Web Indexing). Companies >still believe there is no direct correlation between their website and an >increase in revenues (especially those companies who don't necessarily sell >you a product but rather a service or consultation). Many companies like to >see a corresponding revenue to their expense, otherwise a project is not worth >their while. > >However, I do believe the day when they begin charging is getting closer. Our >company has gone to this method when they realized that they were no longer >getting orders for their publications because everyone was downloading >information from the website. We now charge for the time a surfer logs onto >our server and "peruses." Once a company understands the importance of >information, they will - >categorize it, classify it, label it and ultimately charge you for it. That's >when you come in. You just have to wait it out. However, if you learn Web >Indexing in anticipation of this trend, you'll be ahead of the curve/ This >will give you plenty of time to make some money before everyone else catches >on. > >I went to a web indexing seminar in NY presented by Kevin Broccoli. (Kevin, >if you are out there, speak up; I might be off the mark, but I doubt it.) > >Anna Biunno >ABiunno@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:33:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: About HyperIndex In-Reply-To: <199902090506.XAA06784@mixcom.mixcom.com> >You have probably been given an inaccurate reference to my review of >HyperIndex 6.1 in the Australian Society of Indexers Newsletter of March >1998. Or he's thinking of my earlier review of HyperIndex, which came out before the 6+ versions and before Cindex for Mac. That was in vol. 4, issues 3 and 4, of Key Words. > >The only alternatives for Macintosh users are Cindex for the Macintosh (a >good deal more expensive, and I think no more user-friendly) or else >getting bridging software which allows you to run PC programs on the Mac. I would have to disagree with this assessment of the comparison, unless the newer versions of HyperIndex are also much faster than the 5+ versions. I switched to Cindex because it was worlds faster, which, if you charge by the page, pays for itself in no time. My experience with HyperIndex was that it took upwards 15 minutes to format an index (as compared with seconds in Cindex). Again, that was with an earlier version of HyperIndex, and for all I know, the 6+ version may be much faster. Since Simon talks only of functionality and user-friendliness, I think it's worth asking about speed as well. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:39:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: annotated bibliographies In-Reply-To: <199902090506.XAA06784@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I am currently working on an annotated bibliography. Supposedly there >is no limit on the the length of the index. The annotations are quite >dense, and in many cases I find myself assigning 10+ entries per >annotation. I read (in a book by Langridge) that indexes to >bibliographies are much like those to periodical articles -- that is, >not too detailed. However, this is a scholarly publication and because >some annotations condense an entire book, and everything mentioned seems >important, I am not sure how to approach this. Any advice or insight >would be much appreciated. I've only done a handful of these, but in each case, the editor wanted all the names and themes included--that is, detailed. I would definitely go back to the editor and ask very specific questions about what is to be included. I would even send her or him a list of the terms you picked out from a random biblio entry and see if all of those should be indexed. In a case like this--where the wrong guess about what the client wants could be disastrous--I would contact the editor before I would take the word of any of us, if you get my drift. ;-) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:48:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Software acquisition In-Reply-To: <199902081741.rbuq18.4f7.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> Publishers will rarely want to buy something like Quark for you.... It's expensive. They usually won't do it, and expect you to. You could try and get it in the contract? Jan Wright At 05:38 PM 2/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >I'm in the process of negotiations for indexing an employees benefits >manual for a New York bank, working through a consultant (not my preference >as a way to work, but it is a change of pace) > >I have SKY, Macrex, WordPerfect, Word and PageMaker as possible software >for my work. However, the corporate management may want me to provide >embedded indexing using Quark. > >I'd appreciate knowing how others deal with the cost implications. Have you >had publishers obtain the software, consider it an addition to the invoice, >or ?? > >Thanks, > >Nancy Guenther > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:53:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Software acquisition In-Reply-To: <199902090914.rc0gm6.34n.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> Well, unless they completely remove it from one of their computers at work, or they have a site license, they are violating the licensing agreement. Jan Wright At 09:12 AM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >Nancy - > >I am currently indexing a corporate training manual, and the firm that >hired me wants a tagged index in Framemaker. We discussed the different >possibilities of me getting the software, and they offered to allow me >to put it on my computer - at the end of the job they are going to come >and take it off (I expect to be working on this [roject on and off for >several months at least). > >That way they are not violating their licensing aggreement - and do not >have to put out the money for another copy of the software. An option >to consider... > >Erin > >On Mon, 8 Feb >1999, Nancy A. Guenther wrote: > >> I'm in the process of negotiations for indexing an employees benefits >> manual for a New York bank, working through a consultant (not my preference >> as a way to work, but it is a change of pace) >> >> I have SKY, Macrex, WordPerfect, Word and PageMaker as possible software >> for my work. However, the corporate management may want me to provide >> embedded indexing using Quark. >> >> I'd appreciate knowing how others deal with the cost implications. Have you >> had publishers obtain the software, consider it an addition to the invoice, >> or ?? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Nancy Guenther >> > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Software acquisition Jan wrote: Well, unless they completely remove it from one of their computers at work, or they have a site license, they are violating the licensing agreement. That might not be the case -- you really need to read the license agreement. Many agreements prohibit simultaneous use, not simultaneous installation -- so that you can install a version at home, for example; as long as the single license is not being used by any more than one person at a time, you're within the requirements of the agreement. Not all software companies allow you to do this, of course. John Sullivan > -----Original Message----- > From: Jan C. Wright [SMTP:jancw@WRIGHTINFORMATION.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 10:54 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Software acquisition > > Well, unless they completely remove it from one of their computers at > work, > or they have a site license, they are violating the licensing agreement. > > Jan Wright > > At 09:12 AM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Nancy - > > > >I am currently indexing a corporate training manual, and the firm that > >hired me wants a tagged index in Framemaker. We discussed the different > >possibilities of me getting the software, and they offered to allow me > >to put it on my computer - at the end of the job they are going to come > >and take it off (I expect to be working on this [roject on and off for > >several months at least). > > > >That way they are not violating their licensing aggreement - and do not > >have to put out the money for another copy of the software. An option > >to consider... > > > >Erin > > > >On Mon, 8 Feb > >1999, Nancy A. Guenther wrote: > > > >> I'm in the process of negotiations for indexing an employees benefits > >> manual for a New York bank, working through a consultant (not my > preference > >> as a way to work, but it is a change of pace) > >> > >> I have SKY, Macrex, WordPerfect, Word and PageMaker as possible > software > >> for my work. However, the corporate management may want me to provide > >> embedded indexing using Quark. > >> > >> I'd appreciate knowing how others deal with the cost implications. Have > you > >> had publishers obtain the software, consider it an addition to the > invoice, > >> or ?? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Nancy Guenther > >> > > > > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > Wright Information Indexing Services > http://www.wrightinformation.com > Jancw@wrightinformation.com > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:55:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Professional ethics an oxymoron? (*not* certification) In-Reply-To: <199902090506.XAA06784@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but here is where we diverge. How, >exactly, would certification by a non-regulatory group possibly promote any >of these four things mentioned? I didn't say it would. I'm not responding to the certification issue, only to the poster's characterization of professionalism. >If the customer is satisfied and the readers can find what >they are looking for, the quality is good enough, regardless of how we as >'professional indexers' would rate the index. Different customers and >different subjects require different standards. This is a big can of worms >that neither ASI nor some unformed professional board could ever hope to >clarify. You can't determine "quality" when there are no objective >standards. I would have to disagree that there are no standards; in fact, you just alluded to them: whatever it is that makes clients happy and readers able to find what they need (which might well be different for different kinds of books). The fact that different approaches are needed for different audiences and books does not mean there aren't any standards. Surely we can all agree that blind cross-references, for example, and substandard. And surely an index sorted this way would be substandard: Sekiguchi Shindai, 120n.10 "Small Caves" (Mount Sung), 3 self: Dharma as free of, 11; and ego, 26-27; sentient beings as lacking, 10 Shao-lin Monastery (Mount Sung), 3 Seng-ch'ou, 122n.1 Shen-kuang. See Hui-k'o >Can you imagine the repercussions if we were to revoke someone's >certification because they failed to dress appropriately for business >meetings?! Again, I said nothing about certification. Please read posts carefully before charging in for the attack. I am not recommending a fashing police for indexers, but if a new indexer asks, "Is it OK to wear jeans and a t-shirt to a meeting with a new client," I would not hesitate to say no. I hope by now everyone realizes that I was addressing a very particular post about professionalism, in which neither the subject line nor the content said anything about certification. If I am steering the certification question (I was not following that thread at all, so I don't know what was said about it) in a different direction, my apologies. I meant to address a broader question of professionalism. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:08:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Scholarly SIG (was: Indexing for University Presses) In-Reply-To: <199902090506.XAA06784@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I >would also imagine that the Scholarly SIG will be meeting during this time. Thanks, Sandi. Yes, the Scholarly SIG will be meeting in Indy. At that time, I will distribute a new member networking list, and we'll have a chance to discuss all sorts of questions about scholarly indexing: anything from how to break into it to handling endnote page ranges (U of Calif Press has just changed it's mind on that). All ASI members at the conference who are insterested in scholarly indexing are welcome to attend; you needn't already be an established scholarly indexer. Please bring lots of questions to the meeting. Date, time, and location of SIG meeting to come. Please contact me off-list if you have further questions about this SIG. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:44:36 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Software acquisition A possible alternative for acquiring new software is to take a course at a community college. That qualifies you to buy the software with a student discount, which is sometimes substantial. Not something everyone can do, but worth thinking about for those who can. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:20:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Software acquisition Another possibility to keep down the cost of software is to buy the previous version of a program. I found that I needed just some basic word processing for a second computer and found WordPerfect Suite 7 (full version) was $29.00 while WordPerfect Suite 8 was $329.00. You need to see if the latest version has something you really need but if not you can save alot of money. I buy most of my software from http://www.outpost.com Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:26:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Software acquisition In-Reply-To: <199902091247.rc0t4m.hkd.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> Another thing to consider is whether acquiring the software is going to pay for itself. I would not invest big bucks and a heavy learning curve into a package I'm only going to use for one job. I *used* to do that, but every time I look at the copy of PageMaker, bought for a job that never materialized and gathering dust on the shelf for years, I remember the folly of it. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Software acquisition Craig Brown wrote: >A possible alternative for acquiring new software is to take a course at >a community college. That qualifies you to buy the software with a >student discount, which is sometimes substantial. Not something everyone >can do, but worth thinking about for those who can. > Good point Craig, but have you seen the kind of tuition they get for continuing ed courses these days? Maybe my comparison is apples and oranges since I'm talking university not community college, but at U of Delaware you can't take any sort of continuing ed computer course for less than $250-500. Maybe auditing the course would substantially change that picture; that's something I'm looking into currently at U of D. So I think like for example one of Woody Leonard's $ 14.95 books on Word is a better investment for me. I too have faced Nancy's dilemma, most recently whether or not I should jump on the Framemaker bandwagon, [a possibility that I would need it for a project materialized but then it turned out I didn't], and I wonder what approaches other people have used. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:35:13 -0500 Reply-To: studebas@mlc.lib.mi.us Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sandra A. Studebaker, MSLS" Subject: Compliments & Software Query To all, Before posting my query, I would like to compliment everyone on this list for their willingness to help newcomers, and for the professionalism exhibited in the quality of responses to queries I've seen since signing on to the list in early January. As a paid, but non-active member of ASI since 1991, I've been reading most issues of Keywords from cover to cover with the desire to get into the field when I retired--a status recently acquired. After 24 years as a Librarian in the medical field, I was on the orther side, i.e., using indexes. Now I would like to learn how to construct them. My query has to do with software for indexing of newspapers, especially a DOS-based program called NewsCite. I purchased a copy of NewsCite in 1995 for a half-price, introductory offer of $90 in response to an ad in Computers in Libraries, thinking to use it to index the local medical society's quarterly newsletter (a 5-6 year run) as a way of "getting my feet wet." I didn't use the program much until my recent retirement, and, of course, now have some questions about it. Unable to track down the developer in Oak Lawn, IL, I searched the Internet for someone who might be using NewsCite, but struck out when the one person I located in Canada didn't respond to my Email. So, my query is twofold. First, does anyone have any experience with NewsCite, and if so, would they be willing to give me some assistance/advice regarding use of it for the voluntary indexing project referenced above. Mostly, I need some input on the output--the printed product. Second, is there another software program that I should consider instead--one that is designed for, or applicable for, indexing of newspapers and/or association newsletters. I am aware of Cindex, Macrex and Sky Index, but, from past reviews, I have the impression they are for use primarily for back-of-book indexes. Also, I am reluctant to buy an expensive program until I'm able to assess my aptitude for indexing --preferably by using a less expensive program that will get the job done for the project at hand. Regarding hardware--I treated myself at Christmas to a new high end, custom built PC with lots of memory, hard drive, Mhz, expansion ports, and--most important--a 17" monitor. I relay this in case computer capability is a factor in software recommendations. I would really appreciate any, and all, comments from the experts on this list. Thank you in advance for taking the time away from looming deadline to help another "newbie." Sandra A. Studebaker, MSLS Fraser, Michigan studebas@mlc.lib.mi.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:04:11 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: Indexer Certification "Robert A. Saigh" wrote: > No matter what, this discussion helps us understand the boundaries >of our outlook on certification, so we aid ourselves in getting a >clearer view of the situation by "talking" it out. I agree with Rob. I do not consider myself an advocate of certifying indexers, but I am trying to maintain an open mind. I would like to see a specific proposal (not necessarily within the context of ASI) for discussion so that we could deal with the issues actually raised and form an educated opinion. Many issues specific to indexing would arise and have to be addressed. Any discussion of the pros and cons in the absence of a proposal will yield both objections and potential benefits which might or might not apply to a specific proposal developed by thoughtful advocates, especially with the benefit of having heard these discussions and concerns. It seems to me, and it seemed so at the panel discussion in Seattle, that the advocates and opponents each have valid points about their own vision of what certification could become at its worst, or at its best. One way to advance the discussion would be for advocates to write something down that the rest of us could read and comment on, instead of each of us responding to a vague idea with many possible interpretations. For example: in the case of professional licensure and regulation of physicians, attorneys, civil engineers, etc., the government does get involved to protect the public interest. I haven't ever heard an indexer or publisher representative suggest this kind of regulation for our field. Another example: on the point that certification would not be possible in the absence of objective standards, I would offer the example of interior design, a field which thrives on creative expression, yet there is professional certification for interior designers (without government-backed licensure, as far as I know). Finally: without government regulation, certification could not be "required" in order to work as an indexer. On the other hand, the recent announcement from SI concerning disallowing the listing of certain indexers in "Indexers Available" based on their certification status concerns me. This could be viewed as exactly the kind of abuse of certification that we have heard opponents decry. I would very much like to hear more about the justification for and impact of this decision from SI members. Perhaps there are not enough backers to prepare a proposal, but I would not like to see the conversation itself discouraged just because ASI has rejected the idea in the past. Larry Harrison (to reply directly to me, remove "NOSPAM" from my email address) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:08:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Software acquisition On 2/9/1999 12:44 PM indexer@INETCOM.NET wrote (in part): >Good point Craig, but have you seen the kind of tuition they get for >continuing ed courses these days? At St. Louis Community College, the tuition for a 4-session course in Quark XPress is $59.50. I haven't taken any of their computer courses, but have been very satisfied with the other continuing ed. courses I've attended there. You're right about the universities. The QuarkXPress course at the University of Missouri St. Louis is $149. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Software acquisition Craig wrote: >On 2/9/1999 12:44 PM indexer@INETCOM.NET (Me!) wrote (in part): > >>Good point Craig, but have you seen the kind of tuition they get for >>continuing ed courses these days? > >At St. Louis Community College, the tuition for a 4-session course in >Quark XPress is $59.50. I haven't taken any of their computer courses, >but have been very satisfied with the other continuing ed. courses I've >attended there. You're right about the universities. The QuarkXPress >course at the University of Missouri St. Louis is $149. > Like I said I suspected I was mixing apples and oranges. 60 bucks would certainly be reasonable for a course if you could save a big bunch off the software. And it sure seems as if learning is cheaper out there! Even a perpetually broke freelancer like me might be able to swing $150 for a university course on something as important as QuarkXPress or Framemaker. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:15:18 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Williams Subject: homeschoolers I am a homeschooling parent considering taking on this profession of indexing. My question is to anyone out there who is currently successfully indexing while also homeschooling - can it be done and what hints do you have for someone who is just starting out indexing? Thanks! ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:29:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex Support Office Subject: Re: Compliments & Software Query In a message dated 2/9/99 11:40:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, Sandra Studebaker writes (in part): << I am aware of Cindex, Macrex and Sky Index, but, from past reviews, I have the impression they are for use primarily for back-of-book indexes. Also, I am reluctant to buy an expensive program until I'm able to assess my aptitude for indexing -- preferably by using a less expensive program that will get the job done for the project at hand. >> I always cringe when I see a comment such as this. It is clear evidence that more than 15 years of advertising has failed to convey the versatility of Macrex. Macrex is regularly used to index an amazing variety of materials including works-of-art, photographs, magazines, newspapers, stamp & coin collections, geneological source materials, etc., etc. This, of course, in addition to being used in the creation of standard back-of-the-book indexes. Many indexers also use Macrex to track their client contacts or to maintain their address books. I have often said that Macrex will eliminate the drudge work of ANY indexing project (including, if you add voice control such as DragonDictate, the typing) leaving the indexer to concentrate only on the creative matter of index content. I've used Macrex for years to index my collection of books, magazines, file cabinets and bankers' boxes. I started out focused on computer-related materials but have expanded the index to include our collection of VHS tapes, family records and photographs, my collection of owl objects, and anything else that would otherwise take a great deal of digging to find a single citation. With Macrex only the speed of the printer defines the time it takes to get a listing of everything in a specific location (nice for compiling a home inventory) and I can locate an article about Joe Montana for my husband in seconds -- he has a nice collection of the sports section of our local newspaper. Each item or bit of information has a locator which tells me EXACTLY (room, cabinet, bookcase, box, drawer, folder, shelf, book, magazine, newspaper, page, etc.) where to find there original document (or whatever) and, because I use Macrex, I can change the wording associated with a locator at a moment's notice. I do not pretend to be objective. I like Macrex; I became involved with the distribution and support of Macrex in North America because I found it to be easy-to-use, versatile and sufficiently powerful to handle anything I wanted to index. Now, if only I could rid the world of the idea that Macrex was only suitable for indexing books, I would be content. Gale Rhoades Macrex Support Office, North America ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:37:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Beginner information Dear "Collective Wisdom", It occurs to me that it would be very helpful to the *many* indexer wanna-bes and newbies if *someone* or multiple *someones* could/would comb some of the archive files and assemble the really good responses to their frequently asked questions regarding how to begin indexing, marketing, mentoring, software, etc. Then when "the usual" questions get asked, we/someone could post the assembled answers to "frequently asked questions". I would be glad to help with this project, assuming, of course it's a good idea and if someone else would be willing to share the responsibility. You can communicate off-list if you would like. Thoughtfully, Julie Sherman Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:56:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: Beginner information In-Reply-To: <199902092239.RAA02942@carriage.chesco.com> At 05:37 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >Dear "Collective Wisdom", > >It occurs to me that it would be very helpful to the *many* indexer >wanna-bes and newbies if *someone* or multiple *someones* could/would >comb some of the archive files and assemble the really good responses >to their frequently asked questions regarding how to begin indexing, >marketing, mentoring, software, etc. Index-L already has an FAQ as part of its archives: http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/FAQ In addition ASI has an FAQ on its web site: http://asindexing.org/indfaq.htm Do we really need another? Are new and potential indexers checking these & finding them lacking in some specific information? Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:59:59 -0800 Reply-To: Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny McLaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Beginner information Charlotte's FAQ might be a good starting point for very basic information, such as indexing software and courses. I keep a personal achive of what I consider to be well-put posts on particular topics. For example, I have a nice post by Carolyn Weaver on estimating a job, one by Therese Shere on finding work, and a sample confirmation letter posted by Ann Norcross. Also a great post on embedded indexing by, who else but, Lynn Moncrief. If these individuals would agree to include these posts in such an assemblage as you suggest, I would be glad to forward them to the person who agrees to maintain this archive. Notice I'm not exactly volunteering, but I would be glad to share the responsibility. Bonny McLaughlin Julie Sherman Grayson wrote: > Dear "Collective Wisdom", > > It occurs to me that it would be very helpful to the *many* indexer > wanna-bes and newbies if *someone* or multiple *someones* could/would > comb some of the archive files and assemble the really good responses > to their frequently asked questions regarding how to begin indexing, > marketing, mentoring, software, etc. Then when "the usual" questions > get asked, we/someone could post the assembled answers to "frequently > asked questions". I would be glad to help with this project, assuming, > of course it's a good idea and if someone else would be willing to > share the responsibility. > > You can communicate off-list if you would like. > > Thoughtfully, > Julie Sherman Grayson > juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:58:41 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Fwd: 500 Famous Chinese Names BOOK FYI, Martha BWI >Delivered-To: index@TELEPORT.COM >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:30:17 +0000 >Sender: American Name Society >Subject: 500 Famous Chinese Names >X-To: ans-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu > >A bit of clarification for those interested in purchasing the book, _500 >Famous >Chinese Names_. > >To order by surface mail ($5.80) contact Melanie Oliveiro at >E-mail: tedcsd@corp.tpl.com.sg >Use of a credit card will eliminate bank charges. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:15:06 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: IndexBks@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beginner information In a message dated 2/9/99 2:59:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, nanguent@CHESCO.COM (Nancy A. Guenther) writes: << Index-L already has an FAQ as part of its archives: http://www/indexpup.com/index-list/FAQ >> I just took a look and the FAQ is definately out-of-date. When/how does it get updated? Barb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:19:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: homeschoolers Pamela wrote: << I am a homeschooling parent considering taking on this profession of indexing. My question is to anyone out there who is currently successfully indexing while also homeschooling - can it be done and what hints do you have for someone who is just starting out indexing?>> I've been homeschooling for three years (and I attempted to index while caring for my 2-year-old many years ago). There are several other people too. In many ways it works well--we do structured academics and my daughter works independently at her desk in the same room as mine. When I'm on a crazed deadline the homeschooling can flex; when indexing's under control I focus more on homeschooling--although I always end up worrying that I'm slighting my daughter's education when I have to let it slide. But the flexibility is definitely a plus. But there are downsides, especially for a beginner. Indexing takes a lot of concentration, and you must find some time when you aren't in charge of the kids. Even with one older kid I do quite a lot of work in the late afternoon and evening (when my partner's in charge) and I work almost every weekend. If you have young kids it's even harder--I have a vivid memory of Alex as a potty-training toddler getting my attention (effectively) by standing in front of me and peeing on the rental carpet...! The other problem is deadlines--it's very rare to go through your first year of actually doing jobs without some major pushes. You know that saying--having your own business means having complete freedom to decide which twelve hours of the day you will work? That will happen to you, and you'll need alternatives for your kids during those times. When you've been indexing for a while you'll be both faster and more able to predict how long things will take, and the pushes will be less frequent and more controllable. I do think it's possible, especially if you have a flexible and supportive partner. Feel free to email me privately if the homeschooling part of this gets too far away from Index-L appropriateness! And good luck. Do Mi Stauber DStaub11@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:24:33 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Beginner information It was stated that FAQs already exist on ASI for information to newcomers who are interested in indexing. However, when I first became interested, it was the long, detailed letters written to me by experienced indexers that really helped me and gave me insight into what indexing was all about. I believe the idea of a consolidated group of these letters would very much help novices (for some reason the term "newbies" disturbs me). I will be glad to comb my files for these letters (if I still have them). Jean Middleton Inland Empire Indexing Riverside, CA jeanmidd@prodigy.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:17:46 -0500 Reply-To: julie means Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: julie means Subject: Re: homeschoolers Hi Pamela I homeschooled and indexed for a number of years. While I am no longer homeschooling, I am continuing to index. I would be happy to discuss it all with you more privately. You can mail me at: jemm@yourinter.net Julie -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Williams To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 5:15 PM Subject: homeschoolers >I am a homeschooling parent considering taking on this profession of >indexing. >My question is to anyone out there who is currently successfully indexing >while also >homeschooling - can it be done and what hints do you have for someone who >is >just starting out indexing? > >Thanks! > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:20:20 -0500 Reply-To: contextcomm@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Software acquisition Regardless of the price of a Quark or other software course, I don't think you'd be eligible for the student discount from the software company simply by taking one course (particularly one like the 4-session course mentioned below). Just like ASI won't give someone the student membership rate simply because he's taking the USDA course. I believe these discounts are actually agreements between software companies and school bookstores, and the school may require that you're enrolled in a full-time program to qualify. Contacting you local graphic arts school is probably the only way to get specifics. Anne Day indexer@INETCOM.NET wrote: > Craig wrote: > >On 2/9/1999 12:44 PM indexer@INETCOM.NET (Me!) wrote (in part): > > > >>Good point Craig, but have you seen the kind of tuition they get for > >>continuing ed courses these days? > > > > >At St. Louis Community College, the tuition for a 4-session course in > >Quark XPress is $59.50. I haven't taken any of their computer courses, > >but have been very satisfied with the other continuing ed. courses I've > >attended there. You're right about the universities. The QuarkXPress > >course at the University of Missouri St. Louis is $149. > > > > Like I said I suspected I was mixing apples and oranges. 60 bucks would > certainly be reasonable for a course if you could save a big bunch off the > software. And it sure seems as if learning is cheaper out there! Even a > perpetually broke freelancer like me might be able to swing $150 for a > university course on something as important as QuarkXPress or Framemaker. > > Kevin Mulrooney > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dyslexics of the world untie! > > First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 > 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net > Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html -- Anne Day, Indexer ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania contextcomm@worldnet.att.net "Great minds discuss ideas... Average minds discuss events... Small minds discuss people." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:59:14 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Indexer Certification Re: Larry's comments: To address one of your points: When I began working on my writing up the apprenticeship booklet some years back, I investigated the mechanism within the federal government for establishing a true nationwide apprenticeship program for ASI (there is actually a bureau of such things), and we just weren't up to fulfilling all of the requirements stated in the statutes. I suspect that we would find the same situation with certification.... In other words, the requirements are very tough to meet, and ASI doesn't have the resources to police a program of the type the carpenters union has (for example). If someone wants to establish a certification board, I think that many of us would be interested in seeing the criteria. But bringing any legal or formal clout to the certification would be a whole other level of headache. At the same time, my reaction is: without some kind of "legitimacy" or clout, why bother? I'm not sure that most of my clients are going to be that interested in hiring only certified indexers. I mean, if someone does good work, who is going to care whether or not they are certified. It's one thing to hire a Board-certified CPA, and quite another to hire an indexer. What we lack is the "punishment" implied in not hiring a certified indexer. I'd like to see someone address the consequences of uncertified vs. certified indexers more clearly. So far, the arguments haven't compelled me to reconsider. But I agree, the discussion is good! (As long as no one is pointing the finger and saying "why hasn't ASI done this?" My answer to that question usually involves a tirade about how "ASI" doesn't do anything unless some PERSON volunteers to do it! And so far, aside from all the talk, no one has yet written up a proposal of the kind Larry suggests. Any takers??) Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:37:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Indexer Certification Barbara: The problem with certifying an artistic process is who is to say what is the correct form for the endeavor and by what right does he/she/they proclaim omniscience and sanctification in this matter. I, for one, can see no benefit in certification and must proclaim it guilty as charged before being seen as innocent as pandered. Strong words, I know. As I have stated before, I have been indexing for almost ten years. All the clients who have rehired me have done so because of the merit of my work and not because of some parchment from any august body. None have even asked of my college pedigree, if you will. What they want to see is results, and results I give them -- in a timely and professional manner. Certification will not make me a better indexer. Certification will not bring me any more money. Certification will merely add another onerous layer of bureaucracy where none is needed burying us under more undue and fetid masses of paperwork. No matter how you present this beast, no matter how many baubles you dress it up with, the emperor will still have no clothes. Mark my word. Still, I relish a good discussion as this has been. Without such sporting words, we would never know what our compatriots think, would we? Thank you for your eyes on my words. I have said/written all I have to in this matter. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:33:30 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books Hi everyone, Thanks a lot to all those indexers who responded to my question for entry rate for medical books. It sure has helped me to decide about that client. Thanks again. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services >From ibap@crystalsys.com Tue Jan 26 20:30:33 1999 >Received: from [206.103.240.3] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id MHotMailB877E16343C85D101708ECE67F003D7A30; Tue Jan 26 20:30:33 1999 >Received: from crystalsys.com (a153.tc-2.nwk.infinet.com [216.28.54.153]) by mail1.infinet.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14004 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:30:23 -0500 (EST) >Message-ID: <36AE95E4.DCCBCB39@crystalsys.com> >Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:28:21 -0500 >From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Manjit Sahai >Subject: Re: Per Entry Rate for Medical Books >References: <19990127041325.7401.qmail@hotmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Well, it would seem to me that if you are charging $4 per page, and there >are on average 8 entries per page, then $.50 is approximately equivalent, >but you do need a really good definition of what an entry is. I would think >that for medical books, there would be more entries than this, so it might >be a very good rate. > >Iris (my 2 cents worth) > >Manjit Sahai wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> Today a potential client contacted me to talk about my indexing >> experience and resume etc. which I mailed to her last week. Anyhow, >> during her conversation, she mentioned that they pay ONLY by per entry >> and then she quoted her rate which is 50 cents per entry. Needless to >> say, I was quite shocked. (BTW, they publish only medical books, between >> 150-200 books in a year. It is a very big publisher). >> >> I charge my regular clients by page rate and I have no idea how the >> entry rate works and what is the fair entry rate for medical books. So >> my questions (to those indexers who charge by entry) are..... >> >> 1....if the entry has a page range, For example, >> >> Meningitis, 216-218.......do you consider it just 1 entry or 3 entries , >> because it has 3 locators. (at least acc. to this publisher it would be >> considered 1 entry, that is what she told me). As far as I >> understand,they pay by per LINE, rather by page number/range. >> >> 2....if the See also cross reference has multiple entries....will it be >> considered be 1 entry or more than 1. (this client was not sure about >> this thing). >> >> I have to call her by Friday to tell her whether her 50 cents rate is >> acceptable to me or not. >> >> I will apprecaite any kind of help/response for figuring my per entry >> rate. >> >> Thanks a lot in advance. >> >> Manjit K. Sahai >> RAM Indexing Services >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:52:25 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: About HyperIndex >Since Simon talks >only of functionality and user-friendliness, I think it's worth asking >about speed as well. The processing speed of HyperIndex depends greatly on your machine, as well as on the software. On a fast machine, it works very fast. On a slow machine, it doesn't. Version 6.1.3 is very much faster than the earlier versions. Andre De Tienne writes (and I quoted him in my review): "I let the people here run HyperIndex on one of our fastest machines (PowerMac 9500), and boy, did it fly! What would have taken about an hour on my office Quadra 650 took eight minutes on the PowerMac, from merging to final formatting. The final index is 28 pages long, in two columns, eight-point size." It's true that Cindex is WYSIWYG, and that once you've finished entering you see the completed index in front of you. But eight minutes or thereabouts isn't a long time to have to wait while HyperIndex turns your database (your work-in-progress) into a formatted index. Simon Cauchi, MA, PhD, ANZLA, Registered Indexer (AusSI) Freelance Editor and Indexer, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:38:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Indexer Certification Hi Rob, I'm not a fan of certification either. I hope that you haven't misunderstood. What I advocate is taking the discussion (which I believe will continue, depite our belief that it's pointless) outside ASI. (I believe the discussion will continue because the people in favor of certification believe that those of us who are successfully indexing without it are opposed to it only because we don't need it. In my opinion, they fail to grasp that we are opposed to it because we know what they are learning--that without EXPERIENCE, all of the certification in the world means nothing.) I concur with Dick Evans that if some people think this is a good idea, they should present a proposal that everyone can evaluate. Rather than just lighting flares every once in a while (and to my mind, wondering aloud why no one thought of this "brilliant" idea before). Then there would be a solid proposal to be debated. I see that some experienced indexers believe in the certification idea as well, so I don't mean to imply that all advocates of certification are inexperienced indexers thinking it will give them a leg up in the business.... but as far as I can see, beginners tend to bring this up. Experienced indexers in favor of it seem to feel it will provide some guarantee of quality. To my way of thinking, the only guarantee I have about the quality of an index is that it is done and it looks fine to me. I've been indexing for 15 years and I am still occasionally humbled by a topic or an author's writing style. What I bring to difficult topics is 15 years of experience of coping with problems, so that I can guarantee to do the best possible job! For example, I just finished indexing a book in which the author's topic really did defy categorization in neat little keywords--it was a convoluted and multidisciplinary topic, with a "negative" spin on every word I came up with, since the book was about refuting some old ideas about a complex issue..... Plus the author's writing was a bit dense. Few "topic" sentences, but lots of restatement of the thesis in more and more convoluted language. About tribal groups with shifting names and allegiances. Plus names in several African languages, all of which had different currency in different decades. Plus shifting geographical focus within a large river valley. My point is, the only guarantee I had that this index would be servicable is that I know the standards of a good index, and within the limitations imposed by the text (!) I did the best that I could. (As a matter of record, the author and editor thought the index was excellent and detailed. It looked seamless to them, but I struggled mightily to bring the vocabulary under control. The ASI standards helped there. and as a P.S.: Of course, after the fact, the editor admitted that what she had originally sold me as a "straightforward text" was a bear to work on!! Oh well.) What I hope I've said is, the only guarantee NO MATTER HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE BUSINESS is that you can apply the standards for good indexing to the best of your ability on a particular text at a particular time. Nothing guarantees that the end product will be good on any particular book. Ergo, what exactly are we certifying? We'd be better served to put our efforts into educating editors and authors on the standards of good indexing (per ASI's mission statement), so they can recognize a good index (or a bad one) when they see it. Until we've achieved that, certification is pointless. On a lighter note: I'd be able to guarantee better work if authors were better writers (I work on a lot of dense scholarly stuff, but the same holds true for the technical stuff). So, until I am guaranteed a good text to index, I'm not sure how I can guarantee that the index will be good. The way I see it most days, the only thing I am guaranteeing is that I will give it my best shot, will ask for help if the task becomes more than I can manage, and that I bring my best abilities to the table. No amount of certification is going to change that, improve it, or make the client any happier in the long run. (I mean, if I can't get a good index out of a bad book, whose fault is it anyway?? Not that I haven't felt sometimes like I've made a difficult book more manageable..... but that is a tale for another time.) OK. Enough about this for one morning. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: Re: Beginner information > I just took a look and the FAQ is definately out-of-date. When/how does it get > updated? > > Barb It gets updated when I can find the time. It is on my list. Actually, I need to make it a priority. Or, is there someone who would like to take on this task? Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:59:20 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Indexing software Reply re: << I am aware of Cindex, Macrex and Sky Index, but, from past reviews, I have the impression they are for use primarily for back-of-book indexes. Also, I am reluctant to buy an expensive program until I'm able to assess my aptitude for indexing -- preferably by using a less expensive program that will get the job done for the project at hand. >> I would second Gale's Macrex-related remarks on behalf of both Cindex [which I've used routinely in both DOS and Windows versions as a medical indexer of books and journals since 1992] and for SkyIndex, for which I was a beta tester. Both work great for serial and newsletter indexes; I can't imagine using any other method for compiling large projects, since you can index individual volumes and then merge, or work with large cumulated files -- as large as your computer ram will accommodate. According to the Sky Index web site, the standard edition is still only $99; so cost shouldn't be a barrier for your current project. And you can download demos for all 3 programs from their web pages. For those who expect to make a career of indexing, investing in professional software is part of your start-up costs. I bought a "cheap" package (anybody remember $79 In-Sort for the Mac, which never got beyond the beta version?) before using income from my first job to buy a used PC and Cindex for DOS. Best investment I ever made. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service Bellevue, WA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: BELS Re: Indexer Certification Hi all, I wasn't going to chime in on this thread because a) although I do indexing, I'm not a "professional indexer" and b) I'm not a member of ASI. I'm chiming in because someone in the beginning of this thread mentioned the Board of Editors in the Life Sciences (BELS), of which I'm a member. This is the certifying organization for the "ELS" designation among *science* editors (I've got this). I stressed "science" because that is the *subset* of editors it is geared toward. I'm not going to weigh in on pros and cons of certification... a lot of you have already done that. However, to say that the *same* certification criteria would be in effect for *all* types of indexers (science, literature, etc.) sounds about as plausible as the same certification criteria be in effect for all types of editors (science, literature, newspaper, magazine, etc.), which definitely can't be done. Maybe I'm wrong... won't be the first time... My $0.02. Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:08:46 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Main headings: Popular names vs. special law This question is for the attorney-indexers and other legal indexers out there: At the request of a senator, we've embarked on a project to add about six hundred new main headings to our statutes index, one for each of the popular names of acts now listed under "POPULAR NAMES OF ACTS" in our index. This has forced us to revisit an old question. Certain laws, which on their face are drafted in general terms, are known to the press and the general public as laws intended for the benefit of specific companies. Thus, people call the laws by names such as "the Marvin Windows law," or "the Northwest law." For many people those names are the only "handles" they have for those laws, and there is no other subject or issue they know to look up. It would certainly be helpful to users to include main headings like MARVIN WINDOWS LAW and NORTHWEST LAW. We have hesitated to do that, though, because we want to avoid looking as if we are saying that these laws are special laws, which are restricted by the Minnesota Constitution. We don't know that anyone has ever used an index entry as evidence on that point, but we don't know of anything that would prevent it. How do other states address this question? If your statutes index includes a main heading for each popular name, does it include popular names like the ones I've described? or do other states have a policy of omitting these names for reasons like ours? Does anyone know of any case law in which index entries have been used as evidence? Thanks for any help you can give me. -- -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 651-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ruth V Laningham Subject: Re: Main headings: Popular names vs. special law Maryann -- Why don't you follow the approach in _Shepard's Acts and Cases by Popular Name_ and use the popular names as lead-ins to the official names? Ruth Van Laningham Lexicographer U.S. General Accounting Office laninghamr.oimc@gao.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:51:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Tables & Figs (Macrex) In-Reply-To: <199902071615.IAA25004@dns1.mcn.org> Margaret wrote: >I am currently working on a book which has fold-outs like this and am >following the style set by a previous book in the series. In this case I >would put: > > Bouger Anomaly map 251/2 > >with an explanatory note at the beginning of the index. >However, Macrex will not accept / as part of a page number, so you have to >type a 'dummy number' with tildes followed by 251/2 in curly brackets in >order to get 251/2 to file correctly. In other words you have to type: > > ~251~{251/2} Actually, all one has to type is 251{/2} to achieve that locator. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:58:40 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Tables & Figs (Macrex) In-Reply-To: At 01:51 PM 2/10/99 -0800, you wrote: >Margaret wrote: >>I am currently working on a book which has fold-outs like this and am >>following the style set by a previous book in the series. In this case I >>would put: >> >> Bouger Anomaly map 251/2 >> >>with an explanatory note at the beginning of the index. >>However, Macrex will not accept / as part of a page number, so you have to >>type a 'dummy number' with tildes followed by 251/2 in curly brackets in >>order to get 251/2 to file correctly. In other words you have to type: >> >> ~251~{251/2} > >Actually, all one has to type is 251{/2} to achieve that locator. > >Best, >Victoria > >vbaker@mcn.org > Thanks Victoria Why didn't I think of that myself! Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:28:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothea Clark Subject: Newsletter Index - Locators and Format I have already queried the editor on this, but thought I'd see if any of you have ideas as to how to handle the situation. I will be indexing the back issues of a subscription-only electronic newsletter distributed via listserver. When printed out, each newsletter runs approximately six pages. Archives are not available. Therefore, page numbers, paragraph numbers, and search engines cannot be used to provide access points. The only possibilities I see are issue number (or date) and contributor. Here's the general format of the newsletter: Editorial Topic (Question presented, discussion by members) Topic (Question presented, discussion by members) ...more of the same... Odds and Ends (reference materials, web sites, tools, etc.) I've also asked the editor whether she would prefer to have a "back-of-the- book" format or something akin to a periodical index (with a one-sentence abstract for each entry). After reviewing various periodical indexes at the library, I suspect that without page numbers, paragraph numbers, etc., the latter format may be more useful to users. I've not yet had an answer as to who will use this index and how it will be accessed. FYI -- I am a beginner (currently doing the last index of the first USDA course). One positive factor is that I am very, very familiar with the subject area of the newsletters, so in that regard I'm proceeding from an area of strength. I'm really looking forward to the Open/Closed Indexing and Abstracting workshops in Indiana. Too bad this project is coming up before the conference! Thanks for any suggestions. Dorothea (Dee) Clark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:35:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Newsletter Index - Locators and Format I don't know if this will help, but here is how Medline and Cinahl Inforamtion Systems cite online journals. Roberta Horowitz CINAHL Information Systems ONLINE J KNOWLEDGE SYNTHESIS NURS 1998 Jan 26; 5(doc 1): no pagination (32 ref) An integrative review of substance abuse among nurses from 1981 to 1997 ONLINE J KNOWLEDGE SYNTHESIS NURS 1998 Feb 18; 5(doc 2): no pagination (67 ref) The research basis for prevention of preterm delivery in twin gestations ONLINE J KNOWLEDGE SYNTHESIS NURS 1998 Mar 24; 5(3): no pagination (18 ref) Flushing protocols for tunneled central venous catheters: an integrative review of the literature Medline Online J Curr Clin Trials 1996 Jul 30;Doc No 200-201:[34457 words; 185 paragraphs] Conservative management of mechanical neck disorders. A systematic overview and meta-analysis. Online J Curr Clin Trials 1995 Dec 15;Doc No 199:[2725 words; 26 paragraphs] Effect of intensive insulin therapy on abnormal circadian blood pressure pattern in patients with type I diabetes mellitus. Online J Curr Clin Trials 1995 Aug 26;Doc No 197:[81 paragraphs] The methodologic quality of randomization as assessed from reports of trials in specialist and general medical journals. At 05:28 PM 2/10/99 EST, you wrote: >I have already queried the editor on this, but thought I'd see if any of you >have ideas as to how to handle the situation. > >I will be indexing the back issues of a subscription-only electronic >newsletter distributed via listserver. When printed out, each newsletter runs >approximately six pages. Archives are not available. Therefore, page numbers, >paragraph numbers, and search engines cannot be used to provide access points. >The only possibilities I see are issue number (or date) and contributor. > >Here's the general format of the newsletter: > >Editorial >Topic (Question presented, discussion by members) >Topic (Question presented, discussion by members) >...more of the same... >Odds and Ends (reference materials, web sites, tools, etc.) > >I've also asked the editor whether she would prefer to have a "back-of-the- >book" format or something akin to a periodical index (with a one-sentence >abstract for each entry). After reviewing various periodical indexes at the >library, I suspect that without page numbers, paragraph numbers, etc., the >latter format may be more useful to users. > >I've not yet had an answer as to who will use this index and how it will be >accessed. > >FYI -- I am a beginner (currently doing the last index of the first USDA >course). One positive factor is that I am very, very familiar with the subject >area of the newsletters, so in that regard I'm proceeding from an area of >strength. > >I'm really looking forward to the Open/Closed Indexing and Abstracting >workshops in Indiana. Too bad this project is coming up before the >conference! > >Thanks for any suggestions. > >Dorothea (Dee) Clark > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:45:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: embedded indexing & Sky Index A publisher and I are in an e-mail discussion about the following: She is interested in working with me, but doesn't understand about dedicated indexing software; I use Sky Index. Her past experience with a freelance indexer is with Quark. The indexer gave her a file in Quark that they just added to the main manuscript computer file. The editor wants to know how an index from Sky Index is integrated into the project. Can the file from Sky Index, or any other dedicated software program, be easily integrated into their manuscript file? Can anyone out there explain to me how this works, so I can explain it to the editor? I don't want to accept an assignment if I can't give them what they need. Thank you, Debbie Lindblom alindblom@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:48:27 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nallini I have collections of correspondences and minutes of meetings as part of history collection. Can anyone suggest a publication I can refer to as to how to index the collection. many thanks Nallini ----------------------------------- nallini @sghms.ac.uk St. Georges Hospital Medical School Opinions expressed those of the author and not the institution ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:03:54 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: embedded indexing & Sky Index At 09:45 AM 2/11/1999 EST, Debra Lindblom wrote: >Her past experience with a freelance indexer is with Quark. The indexer gave >her a file in Quark that they just added to the main manuscript computer file. >The editor wants to know how an index from Sky Index is integrated into the >project. It's been awhile since I've worked with Sky Index, but I'm certain that you can save your index file in at least one or two formats that are more or less "universal"...probably ASCII and .RTF. Or, you can import your Sky Index file into your word processing program and take advantage of its capabilities to save in any one of many different formats, which you can export to a new file and email to your editor. I'm sure that somebody who uses Sky regularly can tell you the exact sequence of commands to do this. However, the important thing for you and your editor to know is that you can produce files in a number of formats and that dedicated indexing software (of any kind) does not really affect the product the editor receives. It's a tremendous help to the indexer, but has no effect on the finished product, from the editor's POV. He or she will get a file that can be integrated directly into the final book quite seamlessly. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:27:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ellen Brink Organization: uakron.edu Subject: Cindex and Filemaker I apologize in advance for my computer ignorance, but . . . I have a potential client who would like to create a database index for a trade magazine. I have CINDEX for Windows. He has Quark, Filemaker, and a few other programs I don't recall at the moment. Will it be possible for him to read and import my index files? If so, in which format should I be saving the records? We were going to conduct a test wherein I would try several formats, but I suddenly had the brilliant idea of appealing to the experts -- you all. Since this is such a specific/elementary question, please respond to me off list. Thanks. Ellen Brink bellen1@uakron.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:56:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: embedded indexing & Sky Index I think the issue here is more one of the publisher wanting a file which can be revised, and the indexing preserved. Assuming that the software allows revision marking, and given all the concern about indexing revised editions, this does not seem unreasonable from the publisher's standpoint, although it cuts into our business. I can see where if it were "reset" for a bookclub edition or something, that this would eliminate the issue of changing page numbers. Iris Sonsie Conroy wrote: > At 09:45 AM 2/11/1999 EST, Debra Lindblom wrote: > > >Her past experience with a freelance indexer is with Quark. The indexer gave > >her a file in Quark that they just added to the main manuscript computer file. > >The editor wants to know how an index from Sky Index is integrated into the > >project. > > It's been awhile since I've worked with Sky Index, but I'm certain that you > can save your index file in at least one or two formats that are more or > less "universal"...probably ASCII and .RTF. Or, you can import your Sky > Index file into your word processing program and take advantage of its > capabilities to save in any one of many different formats, which you can > export to a new file and email to your editor. I'm sure that somebody who > uses Sky regularly can tell you the exact sequence of commands to do this. > > However, the important thing for you and your editor to know is that you can > produce files in a number of formats and that dedicated indexing software > (of any kind) does not really affect the product the editor receives. It's a > tremendous help to the indexer, but has no effect on the finished product, > from the editor's POV. He or she will get a file that can be integrated > directly into the final book quite seamlessly. > > =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:01:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: embedded indexing & Sky Index In-Reply-To: <199902110952.rc5rlp.978.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> At 09:45 AM 2/11/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Can the file from Sky Index, or any other dedicated software program, be >easily integrated into their manuscript file? Can anyone out there explain to >me how this works, so I can explain it to the editor? I don't want to accept >an assignment if I can't give them what they need. Cindex can export into Quark format. The trick is that it has to be *imported* into Quark and not *opened* in Quark. Of course, you have no embedded tags, just an index appended on the end of the Quark file. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Cindex and Filemaker In-Reply-To: <199902111225.rc64js.4lk.37kbi15.1@mx7.mindspring.com> At 12:27 PM 2/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >I apologize in advance for my computer ignorance, but . . . > >I have a potential client who would like to create a database index for >a trade magazine. I have CINDEX for Windows. He has Quark, Filemaker, >and a few other programs I don't recall at the moment. Will it be >possible for him to read and import my index files? If so, in which >format should I be saving the records? We were going to conduct a test >wherein I would try several formats, but I suddenly had the brilliant >idea of appealing to the experts -- you all. From Cindex, do a WRITE/DELIMIT to create a delimited database file. That file can then be loaded into any database. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:57:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Johnna VanHoose Dinse Subject: Re: Cindex and Filemaker Ellen, I work with publishers who lay out their books in PageMaker, Quark, and FileMaker. My practice has been to submit the finished index in either Word format or as an .rtf file. We haven't had a problem yet. I save my Cindex files as .rtf, then re-save as Word. Johnna VanHoose Dinse Indexing, Editing, Proofreading Indianapolis, IN -----Original Message----- From: Ellen Brink To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: Cindex and Filemaker >I apologize in advance for my computer ignorance, but . . . > >I have a potential client who would like to create a database index for >a trade magazine. I have CINDEX for Windows. He has Quark, Filemaker, >and a few other programs I don't recall at the moment. Will it be >possible for him to read and import my index files? If so, in which >format should I be saving the records? We were going to conduct a test >wherein I would try several formats, but I suddenly had the brilliant >idea of appealing to the experts -- you all. > >Since this is such a specific/elementary question, please respond to me >off list. Thanks. > > >Ellen Brink >bellen1@uakron.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:15:27 -0500 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: embedded indexing & Sky Index In-Reply-To: <199902111452.JAA19952@mx05.erols.com> Hi Debbie, << You asked: The editor wants to know how an index from Sky Index is integrated into the project. Can the file from Sky Index, or any other dedicated software program, be easily integrated into their manuscript file? Can anyone out there explain to me how this works, so I can explain it to the editor? I don't want to accept an assignment if I can't give them what they need. >> The latest update to SKY Index Professional includes a Preset in the Output Format dialog for Quark XPress. This will allow them to import the generated index file. They would probably be able to import RTF just as easily though. If they want the index entries to be embedded, however, that is a different story all together and you'll have to do that manually with Quark XPress. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 email: kamm@sky-software.com web: http://www.sky-software.com phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472 fax: 703-921-9472 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:50:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Sharing info. on slow/non payers. Hello all! I was wondering if there is a database of names listing publishers who are slow payers and also non payers. This way the rest of us can stay away from the chronic non payers and know what to expect from the chronic slow players. :-) Patrick. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:17:04 -0500 Reply-To: contextcomm@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: embedded indexing & Sky Index Debbie, It sounds to me like the individual you spoke with doesn't understand the production side of her project. Integrating an *index* into the manuscript file is no different than creating any other part of the book: text and graphics are imported from other software into the Quark file. Similary, a text- or Quark-format index file from you can be imported into the Quark file they have. I believe the main advantage to exporting an index as Quark format vs. text or rtf is that more of the formatting will be preserved if your client is using Quark. But technically any of these formats can be used and incorporated into their files. Anne Debra Lindblom wrote: > A publisher and I are in an e-mail discussion about the following: > She is interested in working with me, but doesn't understand about dedicated > indexing software; I use Sky Index. > > Her past experience with a freelance indexer is with Quark. The indexer gave > her a file in Quark that they just added to the main manuscript computer file. > The editor wants to know how an index from Sky Index is integrated into the > project. > > Can the file from Sky Index, or any other dedicated software program, be > easily integrated into their manuscript file? Can anyone out there explain to > me how this works, so I can explain it to the editor? I don't want to accept > an assignment if I can't give them what they need. > > Thank you, > Debbie Lindblom > alindblom@aol.com -- Anne Day, Indexer ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania contextcomm@worldnet.att.net "Great minds discuss ideas... Average minds discuss events... Small minds discuss people." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:39:04 -0500 Reply-To: contextcomm@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Cindex and Filemaker Ellen, I mean no offense, believe me, but I'm curious as to why the potential client wouldn't just hire you/someone to produce a database index in the first place using FileMaker, rather than have to figure out a way to import Cindex records into a database. It seems to me that database indexes are used in situations where traditional index formats (and perhaps indexing software) don't work. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suppose it relates to the hierarchical nature of traditional indexing (heading, subhead1, subhead 2... locator) vs. the "relational" nature of databases (many fields per record which are all at the same level). I guess my question is, are you sure you can provide the types of entries and locators that he needs? In the project I'm working on, for example, I use database indexing to create an online index to the archives of a print periodical. (If the index reflected only the print magazine, I could use Cindex.) Each record must contain the article name, a short description if the title is too obscure, issue/volume, html file name and index category. The resulting entry looks something like this online: (heading) Fashion Trends (first entry) March 98: Color Crazy [spring fashion predictions] (next entry) May 98: Silver Lining [white metal jewelry] In the above example, "Fashion Trends" is the category heading, and the article titles (but not the phrases following) are links to the articles themselves. I use a script to automatically export the info. in this format including html codes. The point is, all of these fields could not have been entered using indexing software and then formatted to look like this (I suppose anything's possible but it would be a pain!). My advice is to make sure Cindex can handle the type of information the publisher needs for his database, then figure out which file format might work. Hope this helps! Anne Ellen Brink wrote: > I apologize in advance for my computer ignorance, but . . . > > I have a potential client who would like to create a database index for > a trade magazine. I have CINDEX for Windows. He has Quark, Filemaker, > and a few other programs I don't recall at the moment. Will it be > possible for him to read and import my index files? If so, in which > format should I be saving the records? We were going to conduct a test > wherein I would try several formats, but I suddenly had the brilliant > idea of appealing to the experts -- you all. > > Since this is such a specific/elementary question, please respond to me > off list. Thanks. > > Ellen Brink > bellen1@uakron.edu -- Anne Day, Indexer ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania contextcomm@worldnet.att.net "Great minds discuss ideas... Average minds discuss events... Small minds discuss people." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:19:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Y to K This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_918919178_boundary Content-ID: <0_918919178@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A client sent this to me. I thought you all would enjoy it! Nell > >Taken from a memo received at a Fortune 500 company - > > > >To: VP, Corporate Administration > > > >I hope I haven't misunderstood your instructions, because this Y to K > >problem makes no sense to me. > > > >Be that as it may, I have completed the conversion of the corporate > >calendar for the year 2000, per my understanding of the instructions. > > > >The months now read as follows: > > > >Januark > >Februark > >March > >April > >Mak > >June > >Julk > >(The rest of the months appear to be okay) > > > > > >Please let me know if there is anything else that needs to be done in > >preparation for the year 2000. >> --part0_918919178_boundary Content-ID: <0_918919178@inet_out.mail.virginia.edu.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (rly-yb05.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.5]) by air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v56.26) with SMTP; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:10 -0500 Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id JAA27259 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.mail.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa28727; 12 Feb 99 9:49 EST Received: from deh3k95.virginia.edu (slip-2-16.acc.Virginia.EDU [128.143.7.216]) by unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA56676; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:49:44 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990212095004.00703d40@unix.mail.virginia.edu> X-Sender: deh3k@unix.mail.virginia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:04 -0500 To: Nell Benton , Carol Payne , Dan Wheeler , Nancyjane Bailey , Rick Wheeler , Robin & Wayne , Peter Hunt From: "Dawn E. Hunt" Subject: Two Y2K funnies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi folks. Some Y2K silliness...I bet we'll see a lot of this in the next few months. Subject: Y2K Conversion > > > >Taken from a memo received at a Fortune 500 company - > > > >To: VP, Corporate Administration > > > >I hope I haven't misunderstood your instructions, because this Y to K > >problem makes no sense to me. > > > >Be that as it may, I have completed the conversion of the corporate > >calendar for the year 2000, per my understanding of the instructions. > > > >The months now read as follows: > > > >Januark > >Februark > >March > >April > >Mak > >June > >Julk > >(The rest of the months appear to be okay) > > > > > >Please let me know if there is anything else that needs to be done in > >preparation for the year 2000. ************************************************************** Subject: FW: Humor: A Y2K Bug We'd Like to See > > > > January 1, 2000 > > Re: Vacation Pay > > > > Dear Valued Employee: > > > > Our records indicate that you have not used any vacation time over the > > past > > 100 year(s). As I'm sure you are aware, employees are granted 3 weeks > of > > paid leave per year or pay in lieu of time off. One additional week is > > granted for every 5 years of service. > > > > Please either take 9,400 days off work or notify our office and your > next > > pay cheque will reflect payment of $8,277,432.22 which will include all > > pay > > and interest for the past 1,200 months. > > > > Sincerely, Automated Payroll Processing Dawn E. Hunt Research Assistant Division of Personality Studies 152 Health Sciences Center University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22908 --part0_918919178_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:29:01 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Fwd: Spell checker This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_918919742_boundary Content-ID: <0_918919742@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Another good one from a client: << > Eye halve a spelling chequer >> It came with my pea see. >> It plainly marques for my revue >> Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. >> >> Eye strike a key and type a whirred >> And weight for it too say >> Weather eye am wrong oar write; >> It shows me strait a weigh. >> >> As soon as a mist ache is maid >> It nose bee fore two long >> And eye can put the error write; >> Its rarely ever wrong. >> >> Eye have run this poem threw it, >> I am shore your pleased two no. >> Its letter perfect in every weigh; >> My chequer tolled me sew. >> --part0_918919742_boundary Content-ID: <0_918919742@inet_out.mail.virginia.edu.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ya03.mx.aol.com (rly-ya03.mail.aol.com [172.18.144.195]) by air-ya03.mx.aol.com (v56.26) with SMTP; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:55:29 -0500 Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by rly-ya03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id JAA23944 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.mail.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id ab02600; 12 Feb 99 9:55 EST Received: from deh3k95.virginia.edu (slip-2-16.acc.Virginia.EDU [128.143.7.216]) by unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15412; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:54:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990212095512.0070553c@unix.mail.virginia.edu> X-Sender: deh3k@unix.mail.virginia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:55:12 -0500 To: Nell Benton , Carol Payne , Christopher and Lisa Payne , Cindy Haney , Dan Wheeler , Nancyjane Bailey , Peter Hunt , Rick Wheeler , Robin & Wayne , Sylvia Mansfield , Arnold Lettieri , Marsha Sims , Bruce Greyson , Carol Bowman , "Emily W. Cook" , Jim Tucker , Pat Estes , Antonia Mills , Diane Kyser From: "Dawn E. Hunt" Subject: Spell checker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> Eye halve a spelling chequer >> It came with my pea see. >> It plainly marques for my revue >> Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. >> >> Eye strike a key and type a whirred >> And weight for it too say >> Weather eye am wrong oar write; >> It shows me strait a weigh. >> >> As soon as a mist ache is maid >> It nose bee fore two long >> And eye can put the error write; >> Its rarely ever wrong. >> >> Eye have run this poem threw it, >> I am shore your pleased two no. >> Its letter perfect in every weigh; >> My chequer tolled me sew. Dawn E. Hunt Research Assistant Division of Personality Studies 152 Health Sciences Center University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22908 --part0_918919742_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:53:34 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Cindex and Filemaker Ellen, In a message dated 99-02-11 12:24:24 EST, you write: << I have CINDEX for Windows. He has Quark, Filemaker >> This is not a problem if you have Cindex v6.1, by which you just save your index with an .xtg extension instead of having it produce an .rtf file. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:42:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Updating Index-L FAQS In-Reply-To: <199812091856.KAA12279@neti.saber.net> Charlotte, I'd be happy to work on updating part of the FAQS on Index-L. I would glean the updated information for the following catagories from the ASI site: 4.Books on indexing 5.What software do indexers use? 6. Courses or training for indexers (outside of library schools) 7. Professional societies/organizations for indexers 10.Winners of the ASI/H.W. and I'd add two sites, (indexstudents) and (freelancers) to 9. Internet Sites but I don't think this is a comprehensive update of #9. including a large reference to the ASI-FAQS with a summary of their site: ASI FAQS: [ What is indexing? | Who does indexing? | How is indexing done? | Can't a computer do the indexing? | What skills or education do indexers need? | How do indexers get clients? | How much are indexers paid? | How do indexers price their services? | What kind of annual income can I expect from indexing? | How can I learn to index? ] What would be the mechanics of updating the FAQS on Index-L? Naomi ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** * ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:42:59 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Miller Subject: Re: Cindex and Filemaker no! please reply on list, since many of us newbies need the same information! Thanks so much! re: reformating file from software to software Rebecca paper2@prodigy.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:37:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: xwoods Subject: CD-ROM indexing I would like to locate people who have had extensive experience with CD-ROM indexing and who will also be attending the ASI conference in Indianapolis. Please reply to me directly, at xwoods . Thanks, X Woods ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Updating Index-L FAQS Dear All, Thank you so much for all your responses regarding putting together information for new indexers. I haven't disappeared - my system is behaving very badly, I've lost a lot of material including all of your helpful suggestions and offers to assist with the creation of the help files. Hopefully after my system is back up and running I will be able to get back on track with you all regarding the project. Thanks for your patience. Julie Grayson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:37:46 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Author citations I have a question about author citations in scholarly works. When asked to, I index *all* references to authors whether cited directly in the text or parenthetically. Authors that are cited directly in the text often are cited by full name, for example, Mina P. Shaughnessy. Authors cited parenthetically are usually cited by last name and date of the publication, for example (Shaughnessy, 1977). If I find an author cited both ways I will usually use the full name in the index entry (assuming there is no ambiguity). However, when an author is cited only parenthetically, I look in the bibliography and find, in many cases, that the first name is never listed; only the first initial or initials are shown. This yields what seems to me a rather uneven index with entries like: Shaughnessy, Mina P. Shorer, M. Sheeran, Y. Has anyone on the list ever tried to make the entries look more uniform by, for example, using only first initials, or (shudder) researching the first names of the dozens and dozens of initials-only authors? Opinions gratefully accepted. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:27:04 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Author citations Craig: Since you are at a disadvantage here (not having the complete information), you have limited choices. 1. Forget uniformity and note the names the way they are noted. 2. Ask the client to get you more complete names. 3. Use all abbreviated names (i.e., first initial, last name). I tend toward option one only because the author or editor is comfortable with the way the names have been noted. I once asked if the author wanted more uniformity, and he said no because the authors being cited wanted to be known by first initial or by full name. This seems to be your call. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:35:56 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: Author citations In-Reply-To: <199902141838.MAA21438@mailgw.flash.net> Craig, I opt for the initials-for-everyone option. I think that scholars are used to seeing their names that way, anyway. Joanne AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com 281-469-4461 http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "A good book is the precious lifeblood of a master spirit, embalmed and treasured up on purpose to a life beyond life." John Milton -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu] On Behalf Of Craig Brown Sent: Sunday, February 14, 1999 12:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Author citations I have a question about author citations in scholarly works. When asked to, I index *all* references to authors whether cited directly in the text or parenthetically. Authors that are cited directly in the text often are cited by full name, for example, Mina P. Shaughnessy. Authors cited parenthetically are usually cited by last name and date of the publication, for example (Shaughnessy, 1977). If I find an author cited both ways I will usually use the full name in the index entry (assuming there is no ambiguity). However, when an author is cited only parenthetically, I look in the bibliography and find, in many cases, that the first name is never listed; only the first initial or initials are shown. This yields what seems to me a rather uneven index with entries like: Shaughnessy, Mina P. Shorer, M. Sheeran, Y. Has anyone on the list ever tried to make the entries look more uniform by, for example, using only first initials, or (shudder) researching the first names of the dozens and dozens of initials-only authors? Opinions gratefully accepted. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: "Vampires" under "J" In-Reply-To: <199902091120.rc0o1l.4d2.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> The other day I was in Blockbuster's and noticed that the movie "Vampires" was available on video. Last night I went back to rent it but couldn't find it. There was no trace of it in the "V" section. I could have sworn I'd seen it just a couple of days earlier. While browsing for an alternative selection, I found it under "J." Why? According to the clerk because it's "John Carpenter's Vampires." (Carpenter being the director, whose name, admittedly appears in very small type before the title.) Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:34:52 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: "Vampires" under "J" Richard Evans wrote: > > There was no trace of [the movie "Vampires"] in the "V" section. > ... I found it under "J." > > According to the clerk because it's "John Carpenter's Vampires." Sounds reasonable to me, but shouldn't there be copies under both "J" *and* "V" and another copy under "C"? ;) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:26:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: bad cross-ref index in publication This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE5860.A292FFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering what all of you would think about the following: I am doing an index for a publisher, and the book has a section = entitled, "cross-reference index" in the appendix. It's a rather odd = little section of 6 pgs, and isn't designed like a normal index..but is = basically for training purposes. So, it's more like an outline than an = index. But, it does have reference locators that refer to the = publication I am indexing, and another publication on the same subject = matter. Anyway....I am not going to index this section (naturally),=20 but I looked it over to see what was included in it and compare it to my = index entries. To be frank, it is very poorly done, with reference to = passing mention of topics, and even makes reference to certain pgs where = I cannot even *find* mention of the topic. I don't really think that it's my place to mention how bad this section = is, but I also think it's a shame to let it go out like this. What = would all of you do? Say something or would you relate it to being = similar to just bad writing within the text, and not bother getting = involved in it? Kevin ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE5860.A292FFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was wondering what all of you would think = about the=20 following:
 
I am doing an index for a publisher, and the = book has a=20 section entitled, "cross-reference index" in the = appendix.  It's=20 a rather odd little section of 6 pgs, and isn't designed like a normal=20 index..but is basically for training purposes.  So, it's more like = an=20 outline than an index.  But, it does have reference locators that = refer to=20 the publication I am indexing, and another publication on the same = subject=20 matter.
 
Anyway....I am not going to index this section (naturally),
but I looked it over to see what was included in it and compare it = to my=20 index entries.  To be frank, it is very poorly done, with reference = to=20 passing mention of topics, and even makes reference to certain pgs where = I=20 cannot even *find* mention of the topic.
 
I don't really think that it's my place to mention how bad this = section is,=20 but I also think it's a shame to let it go out like this.   = What would=20 all of you do?  Say something or would you relate it to being = similar to=20 just bad writing within the text, and not bother getting involved in = it?
 
Kevin
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE5860.A292FFC0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:52:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: bad cross-ref index in publication In-Reply-To: <199902142121.rcf15t.ct0.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> At 09:26 PM 2/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > > I don't really think that it's my place to mention how bad this section = > is, but I also think it's a shame to let it go out like this. What = > would all of you do? Say something or would you relate it to being = > similar to just bad writing within the text, and not bother getting = > involved in it? Do they have time to do anythihg about it? If so, approach the subject gently and see how they react. If not, keep quiet. Dick