Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9912A" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:46:58 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Obesa cantavit? Minime. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another good reason for having real, as opposed to virtual, bookstores. Browsing. I seem to recall Brent Musburger mindlessly repeating the fat lady expression during that 1978 series. (Where is that guy now?) But really...... this expression is certainly not in the same ballpark with Grantland Rice's immortal 1924 editorial on the Four Horsemen, now is it? I expect universal agreement on this one. Nick Koenig >All - > >Well, serendipity has struck again! On a recent visit to Barnes & Noble, I >ran across a book entitled "It Ain't Over 'Till the Fat Lady Sings: The 100 >Greatest Sports Finishes Of All Time" by Howard G. Peretz (B&N, 1999). > >Pages XII-XIII are devoted to the Fat Lady legend. > >Mr. Peretz says that in the 1978 National Basketball Playoffs (Washington >Bullets vs. Philadelphia 76ers), Bullets coach Dick Motta said "The opera >ain't over, etc., etc." > >But San Antonio Express News broadcaster Dan Cook evidently said it on the >air earlier, during a game between Washington and the Spurs. > >Also, an obscure 1976 booklet entitled "Southern Words and Sayings" included >the entry "Church ain't out until the fat lady sings." > >Other people remember it going back to the 1960s. Political reporter Bob >Ingraham said that he first heard the "opera" version while with the >Montgomery (ALA) Advertiser in the 1950s. > >So, like all great legends, the origin of this phrase seems to be shrouded in >mystery, if not in history. And, unlike other children of uncertain >paternity, there seems to be no dearth of willing fathers. Or, at least, of >fond uncles. > >On, Dancer! On Prancer! >On Avoirdupois! > >And to all a Good Night... ! > >Bob > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:33:50 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that the whole sentence is the thing that is being indexed, but if the indexed word does not occur on the first page I expect the user is going to spend a frustrated minute looking carefully through the whole page for the indexed word (or a synonym or concept related to it). I am more likely to index only the second page, hope that the user will quickly find the indexed word, and then look back to find the context. (If the context is important enough I trust the user to have enough initiative to look for it). A similar problem occurs when one synonym is used for a concept. In this case I often use the other synonym in parentheses so that the user can find a term from the index on the page they are looking at. For example, in a multi-authored book on adolescence half the authors used 'autonomy' and half used 'independence' to refer to the same concept. I was worried that someone who had looked up 'autonomy' might miss the word 'independence' on the page. Having looked for indexed terms myself when checking books I have indexed I know haw hard it can be to find even the exact word you are looking for on a page. Making this easier is one of my priorities, at the risk of 'accuracy' perhaps. Glenda. > And, yes, if an indexable term appears on, say, p. 122, but the sentence > it's in starts on p. 121, I use 121-22 as the locator. What I'm indexing > isn't just the word itself but what the author is saying about it, and it's > (usually) the entire sentence that gives me that. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:37:08 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: separate index sales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A technical writer once contacted me about a book that she relied on heavily that had no index, and asked how much it would cost to have one tailor-made. Unfortunately it was much to expensive for one person, and we didn't manage to think entrepreneurially enough to devise a marketing plan to make it worthwhile. I can imagine someone paying, say, $5 for an index (assuming that if you found the lack significant enough to make your own, then others have probably suffered too), but probably not much more. The Internet seems to be the obvious low-cost targetable marketing environment. And perhaps, most importantly, the publisher will get the message and hire you to do the index to the next edition. Good luck, Glenda. > I'm writing a couple of indexes for books that were published without > indexes and I'm considering offering the one I'm doing _gratis_ for sale > with the permission of the author and publisher. Anybody have any advice > on pricing or marketing? > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > Brackney Indexing Service > 134 Kathleen Way > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 08:15:28 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexlady@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Paragraphs/Page References MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to those who took time to clarify this point. Most indexers may already being using a literal interpretation of where the information is located. However, there are several of us indexers who come from the same professional research/engineering/technical writing background as I do, and we do it slightly different. Therefore, I'm posting the consensus: While it would be totally wrong in reference works, white papers, and other places, it IS correct in indexing to use a literal interpretation of the information location. Ignore paragraph structure for this purpose. Thanks! Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:49:55 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: page references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred: THis is a very good idea, and might be expanded to even doing something with high school media centers, which is where most students begin to do serious research. I am putting together ideas to go into a Strategic Planning guide, and will add this one to it. I'm thinking that indexers could offer such courses in places they normally work or are involved in. For example, if you are a parent and involved in PTA, you might be able to do the high school media thing. If you are associated with an Athaneum, a library like Newberry, or some professional library, you could easily use this idea to spread the word about indexing. Good to hear from you again. Diana Witt Locatelli@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 99-11-30 16:40:33 EST, lastword@mindspring.com writes: > > > Count me among these in my life before indexing. I also had no idea that > > an index might have explanatory notes at the beginning. > > Which is why I've started giving a course at the Newberry Library titled > "Beginning at the Back of the Book: How to Use Indexes." It's part of the > Library's regular seminar series and is aimed at any readers using the > library. Basically I spend two two-hour sessions covering some of the > standard conventions we indexers use. I also include basic tips for > increasing research efficiency. > > Why not try offering such a course at your public library? It would help the > public learn about indexes (which is certainly a good thing), plus it's great > publicity for you, too (which is definitely a good thing). > > Fred Leise > Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:10:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: page references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diana, I know that some indexers on the list here have already developed a presentation program for schools (I don't remember what grade level, and I don't remember who it was). I'm sure they'll speak up about the issue. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: quaker1 To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 8:49 AM Subject: Re: page references > Fred: THis is a very good idea, and might be expanded to even doing something > with > high school media centers, which is where most students begin to do serious > research. > I am putting together ideas to go into a Strategic Planning guide, and will add > this one > to it. I'm thinking that indexers could offer such courses in places they > normally work or > are involved in. For example, if you are a parent and involved in PTA, you might > be > able to do the high school media thing. If you are associated with an Athaneum, > a library > like Newberry, or some professional library, you could easily use this idea to > spread the > word about indexing. Good to hear from you again. > Diana Witt > > Locatelli@AOL.COM wrote: > > > In a message dated 99-11-30 16:40:33 EST, lastword@mindspring.com writes: > > > > > Count me among these in my life before indexing. I also had no idea that > > > an index might have explanatory notes at the beginning. > > > > Which is why I've started giving a course at the Newberry Library titled > > "Beginning at the Back of the Book: How to Use Indexes." It's part of the > > Library's regular seminar series and is aimed at any readers using the > > library. Basically I spend two two-hour sessions covering some of the > > standard conventions we indexers use. I also include basic tips for > > increasing research efficiency. > > > > Why not try offering such a course at your public library? It would help the > > public learn about indexes (which is certainly a good thing), plus it's great > > publicity for you, too (which is definitely a good thing). > > > > Fred Leise > > Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:51:07 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: schools and indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diane (and Dan), Both Maria Coughlin and Marilyn Rowland have done such training in the schools. Maria has designed and implemented a program in this area. Maria's program was presented to the ASI Board a few years ago. I don't remember if it got any financial funding at the time. It may have. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:07:05 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blee811@AOL.COM Subject: Re: separate index sales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/99 2:45:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, diagonal@HERMES.NET.AU writes: << I can imagine someone paying, say, $5 for an index (assuming that if you found the lack significant enough to make your own, then others have probably suffered too), but probably not much more. The Internet seems to be the obvious low-cost targetable marketing environment. >> I always buy the annual index to Bon Appetit, the only way I can practically use my saved issues. I think they're about 7.95 and not terribly elaborate. Whether there is a market for indexes for single books, I'm not at all sure. I doubt I'd buy one. Bill Lee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:26:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gravitz Subject: computer and Cindex upgrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am planning on upgrading my old Win 3.1. I am a devoted Cindex for DOS 6.0 user. I would greatly appreciate feedback on 2 issues: 1)How well does Cindex for DOS 6.0 run on either Win 95 or Win 98? Any problems? 2)What are the experiences of indexers who have migrated from Cindex for DOS to Cindex for Windows? I'm really used to keystrokes and am somewhat clumsy with a mouse. (Poor eye-hand coordination I guess!) Thanks in advance, Ina Gravitz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:58:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: separate index sales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/99 12:08:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, Michael writes: > I'm writing a couple of indexes for books that were published without > indexes and I'm considering offering the one I'm doing _gratis_ for sale > with the permission of the author and publisher. Anybody have any advice > on pricing or marketing? Hi Michael, I did the same thing recently for a genealogy/regional history book. I was advised by an experienced genealogist to charge about $10 for the index, plus $2.50 for postage and handling (and printing and mailing envelopes). The index is actually 8 sheets of paper, but the paper is printed double-sided in landscape mode, 2 columns on the left side page and 2 columns on the right side page so the index appears to be 27 pages long (5.5" x 8.5"). Is that clear? The index has nearly 1700 entries. I got one of those big staplers that lets you staple in the middle of the page so you have a nice, finished booklet that closely matches the 7" x 9" size of the original book. I also made the font size and style to match the book as closely as possible. Of course, I put my "copyright @1999 Peg Mauer" in the footer of every page. As for marketing, I had a librarian friend of mine 8-) do a search in their handy-dandy database to see what libraries own a copy of the book. Then I searched for those libraries on the Internet to find US mailing addresses or email addresses for Acquisitions Librarians. I made up an official looking Press Release and sent it by email or snail mail to those librarians. I found a web site for the Historical Society for the region that pertains to the book, and sent an email to the webmaster with the Press Release. I'm already getting a positive response. (I'm also working with the Historical Society who originally published the book. They are eager to republish the book with my index, because the book is out of print but there's still a high demand for it.) BTW, this is a great way for indexers to get started. You can write and produce the index on *your* schedule, without any brutal deadlines and then you just sit back and let the checks come in! (I'd suggest that you wait for the checks to clear before you mail out the index!) Hope that helps. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG www.communication-link.com <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:08:16 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Job in New Jersey: Lotus Notes/Domino Developer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're interested in this position in Northern New Jersey, please REPLY TO Kris Bonello (bonellok@dsainc.com), NOT to me or the list!! Lotus Notes/Domino Developer Posted: November 30, 1999 Start Date: November 30, 1999 DSA is looking for a developer in Lotus Notes formula language, LotusScript, and Lotus agent development for use in a Domino environment. Our project involves implementing ODBC and LDAP connectivity using LotusScript agents, JavaScript, HTML, and Oracle and MS Access. Our project work includes maintaining existing Notes/Domino applications that are used in a corporate intranet environment. These intranet applications allow corporate personnel to order documents, request information searches, register for presentations, index their own research documents and access a variety of news sources. Access is via web browsers, while the backend provides feeds to billing systems and marketing data acquisition systems. New work includes, but is not limited to, development of ODBC interfaces to Oracle databases that are being implemented to improve customer billing and revenue capture, and new document indexing systems. NO HEADHUNTERS PLEASE! This job is located in NJ: Northern New Jersey. Pay rate is open. Job Length is full time. Contact Kris Bonello (bonellok@dsainc.com) at Data Systems Analysts, Inc. Phone: 732-747-2254 Fax: 732-747-2927 See http://www.jobcircle.com/public/public_classifieds?id=10786 for more information. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:30:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Computer Virus Strikes Through Files Attached to E-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Virus Strikes Dozens of Companies 'Mini-Zip' Attacks Through Files Attached to E-mail By MOLLY WOOD .c The Associated Press SAN FRANCISCO (Dec. 1) - Experts scrambled to warn thousands of computer users that a familiar and damaging virus has struck scores of companies and could be slumbering in their e-mail inboxes. The Mini-Zip virus tore through computers on Tuesday, devouring files and crippling e-mail systems, anti-virus analysts said. It was expected to renew its assault today as unsuspecting users logged on. Dan Schrader, vice president of new technology at Trend Micro in Cupertino, Calif., said he fielded complaints of significant problems from four Fortune 500 companies and scores of smaller companies. Sal Viveros, a marketing manager for Santa Clara-based Network Associates, which makes anti-virus software, said 20 large corporations had been affected by Tuesday evening. The experts refused to release the names of affected companies. Mini-Zip's parent bug, Worm.Explore.Zip, struck last summer. It was considered the most destructive virus since the Melissa outbreak in the spring. ''The last time this virus came along it affected tens of thousands - maybe hundreds of thousands of computers - and caused millions of dollars in damage,'' Schrader said. ''It's malicious and fast-spreading. We consider this to be high-risk.'' It wasn't clear whether the problem had been reported to the government-chartered CERT Coordination Center - formerly the Computer Emergency Response Team - at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh. There were no warnings on its Web site early today. Anti-virus experts said the bug gets loose from an infected system as a seemingly friendly reply to a clean e-mail sent via the Microsoft Outlook, Outlook Express or Exchange browsers. The virus intercepts the original message and automatically sends itself as a response - even changing the subject line from, for example, ''Work Meeting'' to ''Re: Work Meeting.'' The body of the message reads: ''Hi (recipient's name)! I received your e-mail and I shall send you an e-mail ASAP. Till then, take a look at the attached zipped docs. bye.'' The e-mail contains an attachment called ''zipped-files.exe.'' If a user double-clicks on the attachment, the virus is set loose in the new victim's system. It then destroys a series of files in a computer's hard drive by replacing them with empty files. Anti-virus experts cautioned users against opening e-mails if they do not know the sender or why they were sent. They said the virus could be fought with updated anti-virus software. AP-NY-12-01-99 0402EDT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:47:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SFrankmail@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This sounds like a GREAT idea! What specific topics are covered in each of the two-hour sessions? Sandi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:58:18 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SageWords1@AOL.COM Subject: Holiday Tipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, Does anyone tip their FedEx/UPS/other overnight service delivery people at the holiday time? One or more of these services have faithfully delivered packages of page proofs to me for my indexing jobs throughout the year. Let's just say, for the sake of example, approximately one package of page proofs per month. And not to mention the other types of packages they've delivered from online ordering I've done--especially as the holiday season approaches. Does anyone have any thoughts on what is an appropriate tipping amount? Thanks... Debbie Graf Sage Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:02:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: separate index sales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're doing the gratis index out of a need for a good index with that book, I suggest you seek encouragement from both the author and the publisher. If you'r feeling is that the author is honest, you might send him or her copies of your index to sell, asking him to take a percentage of the profit. Authors market their books and are the best people to market a book's index. If the author has made a profit from your index, he or she is much more likely to want to work with you in the future. If you have the same arrangement with the publisher, you will probably make even more sales. If, on the other hand, you chose the book to index as one of the few books you have that doesn't have an index and for some reason you wanted to prepare an index, I would suggest you CONSIDER the steps mentioned above only AFTER you make a separate determination on whether the book needs an index. Another step available to you is to contact Amazon and similar online book sellers. You should definitely put a favorable review of the book on their webpages (*****'s tend to get published, others do not always get published) and mention in the review that you have remedied the only fault with the book: That it lacks an index: "Smith's book on the ABC's with an index is one of the best books on ABC's, but it is almost unusable without the index I've prepared." They may not publish it. If they don't write a review they will accept and get yourself a free website with the end url ABCsindex, or something similar, where you advertise and sell the the book index. If a book seller sells enough of the books to warrant selling your index, you could sell them directly to the bookstore at a discount and they are likely to purchase enough for their current stock on hand (which they'll probably tell you is less than what it is). As far as the price is concerned I suggest you do what some other retailers do: Identify your actual or estimated costs. Multiply by three. Charge that amount per index. Print only as many indexes as you think you can sell. Max Dalrymple, MLS mdalry@sr66.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael Brackney To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: separate index sales >I'm writing a couple of indexes for books that were published without >indexes and I'm considering offering the one I'm doing _gratis_ for sale >with the permission of the author and publisher. Anybody have any advice >on pricing or marketing? > >Thanks, > >Michael > > >Brackney Indexing Service >134 Kathleen Way >Grass Valley, CA 95945 >530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:57:12 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Packagers vs. Publishers, marketing to MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings! As someone who's just starting an indexing business, I have a few questions about packagers vs. publishers. First, I gather that many indexers work for packagers as well as publishers. How do you find them and market yourselves to them? Next, do you find that most of your work is from packagers, publishers, or equally from both? Finally, to market yourself to packagers, who do you contact as the "point person" in the organization? What's this person's title usually? Any advice you have would be great. You can email me directly if you like at kfield@stellcom.com. Thanks! Karen Field ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:16:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: schools and indexing Comments: To: JPerlman@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maria's program was slightly different. It focussed on teaching elementary school students to create a simple index. What I do is focus on the needs of adults who want to do research. So I suspect there is a difference in methodology, while having some overlap in content. Fred In a message dated 12/1/99 8:54:06 AM Central Standard Time, JPerlman@aol.com writes: << Diane (and Dan), Both Maria Coughlin and Marilyn Rowland have done such training in the schools. Maria has designed and implemented a program in this area. Maria's program was presented to the ASI Board a few years ago. I don't remember if it got any financial funding at the time. It may have. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:16:31 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: schools and indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janet: Thanks for jogging my memory. I do remember something about that now. It seems to me it was discussed at Seattle, but I could be wrong about that. Anyway, I will make it a point to contact Maria. Diana JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: > Diane (and Dan), > > Both Maria Coughlin and Marilyn Rowland have done such training in the > schools. Maria has designed and implemented a program in this area. Maria's > program was presented to the ASI Board a few years ago. I don't remember if > it got any financial funding at the time. It may have. > > Janet Perlman > SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:21:20 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would recommend Cindex for Windows over the DOS version. It's clumsy to go back and forth from Windows to DOS in my opinion, and the Windows upgrade of Cindex is wonderful. It is really not necessary to use the mouse at all, since most commands can be driven either by the mouse of the control or function keys. However, you may find yourself using some of the mouse commands, I do. The help desk at Cindex is very good about providing guidance on this. I have not yet ordered the new Cindex 1.5, but there were some reviews of it a few weeks ago on the listserve. Check the archive. In any case the Cindex Windows is worth upgrading to. Diana Gravitz wrote: > I am planning on upgrading my old Win 3.1. > I am a devoted Cindex for DOS 6.0 user. I would greatly appreciate > feedback on 2 issues: > 1)How well does Cindex for DOS 6.0 run on either Win 95 or Win 98? Any > problems? > 2)What are the experiences of indexers who have migrated from Cindex for > DOS to Cindex for Windows? I'm really used to keystrokes and am somewhat > clumsy with a mouse. (Poor eye-hand coordination I guess!) > Thanks in advance, > Ina Gravitz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:39:08 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cross-references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, Depending on the kind of book, of course, I would say that I have about 25-50 cross-references in the average scholarly monograph (which may have 1,200 page locators and perhaps 800 entries total), many more in horticulture books (for me, they seem to require them more), and probably up to 100 in anthropology and archaeology books (with so many synonyms and related terms for every aspect of human behavior). So 50/800 is about 6.25 percent. I could send you my stats and you could do more precise math, if you really want to know. I record the statistical information (especially the density of entries per page) on every index I prepare, so that information is available for many years' work. I'd be curious to know what other people think, and it's hard to generalize across subject areas. But in a scholarly book, 10 cross-references sounds low, unless I have lots of room and have double-posted everything under the sun. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:38:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: schools and indexing In-Reply-To: <384565FF.C83C55C9@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:16 PM 12/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >Janet: Thanks for jogging my memory. I do remember something about that now. >It seems >to me it was discussed at Seattle, but I could be wrong about that. Anyway, I >will make it a >point to contact Maria. >Diana Hi All: Yes, it was one of the panels at the Seattle conference, either the Friday or Saturday morning sessions. Willa (who is glad that ASI is not having a conference in Seattle this week.....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:53:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ina, In CINDEX for Windows, the main thing you need the mouse for it "OK." Almost everything else can be controlled from your keyboard. I forget to think about what the strokes are, but my hands know the commands, because I've been doing them for so long. Since I moved to a touchpad, even "mousing" has become less of an issue for the times I need it. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:22:50 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cross-references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << I would say that I have about 25-50 cross-references in the average scholarly monograph (which may have 1,200 page locators and perhaps 800 entries total) >> On the whole, Barbara's numbers are in the same ballpark as mine. Its very hard to quantify this because of the tremendous difference in authors. Some think that using varied terminology shows greater intelligence and a better eductation. (Pity the poor indexer) I also find that I use more cross-references for multi-authored works. Another factor in the whole picture is that I use double posting for headings with less than three entries under both terms. In other words, I wouldn't send a reader to another term using a x-ref if there are only two or three entries. I'd just double-post. It doesn't take any more room. It's difficult to turn that into statistically relevant comparisons, but fun for curiosity's sake. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:27:14 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: page reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to follow this practice myself. Then as I was editing an index with XXX 43-44 in it I first went to p. 43 and scanned it. I was about to conclude I had made a mistake when I realized XXX must appear on the top of the next page. After this occurred a number of times I have started using only the locator on which the word appears, even it it appears in a sentence that begins on the previous page. I have no idea how many others use indexes the way I do, but my own experience is all I have to go on. A reader will quickly see that an indexed word appears in an incomplete sentence and will flip to the next page to view the beginning. It may take a bit longer to figure out that the word appears on the next page in the sentence than begins at the bottom of the page being scanned. Nick Koenig > >And, yes, if an indexable term appears on, say, p. 122, but the sentence >it's in starts on p. 121, I use 121-22 as the locator. What I'm indexing >isn't just the word itself but what the author is saying about it, and it's >(usually) the entire sentence that gives me that. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:34:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade I can tell you that Windows 98 REALLY doesn't like DOS-- DOS programs don't run well at all on it. Also, as computers continue to evolve DOS is going to become more and more obsolete. I work for a publishing company that is fairly high-tech and just got a computer upgrade to a Compaq Deskpro EN (500 mhz) with a Pentium III chip and 128 MB of RAM, and my network connection was recently upgraded to a 100 bit line (from a 10 bit). I'm running Windows 95 for my OS. This is great most of the time-- really speedy!-- but since the upgrades I've been having problems with my DOS programs, partly because the computer is so fast that it's actually too fast for DOS to handle. Just another problem to look out for as you upgrade. I've got Cindex 1.5, and so far I think it's great! Some of the features that were added are really useful for me, personally, and it runs very smoothly. Like Diana, I tend to use the keyboard for most of the functions, but there are some things that I like using the mouse for. Virtually all of the Windows commands have keystrokes, and many of them mirror the DOS keystrokes. I'm not trying to sell you on Cindex for Windows, but you should probably at least go check out their website and see what features are included in the upgrade and decide if they would be useful enough to you to justify the expense. > -----Original Message----- > > I would recommend Cindex for Windows over the DOS version. It's clumsy to > go > back and > forth from Windows to DOS in my opinion, and the Windows upgrade of Cindex > is > wonderful. > It is really not necessary to use the mouse at all, since most commands > can > be driven either by > the mouse of the control or function keys. However, you may find yourself > using some of the > mouse commands, I do. The help desk at Cindex is very good about > providing > guidance on this. > I have not yet ordered the new Cindex 1.5, but there were some reviews of > it > a few weeks ago > on the listserve. Check the archive. In any case the Cindex Windows is > worth > upgrading to. > Diana > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:55:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: cross-references In-Reply-To: <0.9f010494.2576dd9a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:22 PM 12/1/99 -0500, you wrote: ><< I would say that I have about 25-50 cross-references in the average >scholarly monograph (which may have 1,200 page locators and perhaps 800 >entries total) >> > > On the whole, Barbara's numbers are in the same ballpark as mine. Its >very hard to quantify this because of the tremendous difference in authors. There is also a difference in the type of book being indexed. For instance, if you are indexing a medical text with a lot of abbreviations, that would effect the number of cross references or double postings used by the indexer. Willa (thankful that we are not getting the heavy snow that was expected in Boston for tonite....although it would have been nice to have had some snow at Cardigan Moutain this past weekend...) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:25:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: page reference Comments: To: ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (cross-posted to ASI-L from Index-L---sorry about the repeat for many) I think Nick has a good point here, in particular. In general, I note that he relies on his own experience in making indexing decisions: "I have no idea how many others use indexes the way I do, but my own experience is all I have to go on." I have confidence that he has good instincts (esp. since I agree with him on this issue) but there are legitimate questions over which method might be better. Does anyone think it would be a good idea for ASI (or another organization) to set up some index usability studies so that we can obtain some objective data when confronted with these types of problems? I don't have experience in setting up such a formal event, but I'm sure some listmates out there would be able to give us some feedback on necessary sample size for validity, etc. We could brainstorm and come up with topics (this is one, indented vs. run-in might be another, and so on). If people are interested, I will collect topics, while hoping for input on how to set this up. I'm sure we could develop a 2 or 3 page written survey and have various listmembers give them to their local libraries to administer to volunteers. Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents List ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com/indexstudents.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: nkoenig To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:27 PM Subject: Re: page reference > I used to follow this practice myself. Then as I was > editing an index with XXX 43-44 in it I first went to > p. 43 and scanned it. I was about to conclude I had > made a mistake when I realized XXX must appear > on the top of the next page. After this occurred a number > of times I have started using only the locator on which the > word appears, even it it appears in a sentence that begins > on the previous page. I have no idea how many others > use indexes the way I do, but my own experience is all I > have to go on. A reader will quickly see that an indexed > word appears in an incomplete sentence and will flip to the > next page to view the beginning. It may take a bit longer > to figure out that the word appears on the next page in the > sentence than begins at the bottom of the page being scanned. > > Nick Koenig > > > > > >And, yes, if an indexable term appears on, say, p. 122, but the sentence > >it's in starts on p. 121, I use 121-22 as the locator. What I'm indexing > >isn't just the word itself but what the author is saying about it, and it's > >(usually) the entire sentence that gives me that. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:51:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you who are interested, this seemed like a really good tip. BUYING BARGAINS Running a business from home means you must keep a sharp eye on expenses. Deals.com is a site that can help you keep a close rein on expenses while purchasing items you need for your small business. Deals.com sells brand-name products at discounts of up to 90 percent. The company does this by buying directly from companies needing to liquidate their overproduced or discontinued inventory at huge discounts. Deals.com then passes its savings to you. You can find bargains on apparel, jewelry, home furnishings, sports, travel, and so on. For small business needs, the Electronics and Home & Office categories offer phones, answering machines, modems, computers, surge protectors, file cabinets, and more. The site updates its deals every day, so you may want to check the New Deals section often. You can also sign up to receive new product updates via e-mail. You'll find the site at http://www.deals.com -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit my domain http://www.seekaye.com or the World of Whislbabe in Geocities, SoHo/Square/4033 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:50:57 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/99 2:47:33 PM Central Standard Time, Sharon.Wright@LEXIS-NEXIS.COM writes: << I can tell you that Windows 98 REALLY doesn't like DOS-- DOS programs don't run well at all on it. >> I'm running Win98 release #2. I had CINDEX 1.0 loaded and found trouble when trying to save back to the old .dat format. I kept loosing records.(not from the CINDEX 1.0 file but from the .dat file) odd, couldn't find a virus or hard disk problems. But to check it all, I had to load the old CINDEX for DOS version at the same time, and that worked fine. No problems, well one, the additional symbols under F11 didn't all show up but I could still use the ALT codes. I'm loading the CINDEX 1.5 this week. I can't wait. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:44:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade In-Reply-To: <199912012040.PAA25478@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I can tell you that Windows 98 REALLY doesn't like DOS-- I've been running Cindex 6.1 for DOS under Win 95 and now Win 98 for years. The only problem I've ever had is that the path name to the NDX files should conform to DOS naming conventions. Otherwise, I have occasional quirky failures, most notably Cindex sometimes crashes when trying to generate an RTF file. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:10:24 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Usability studies (was: Page references) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think usability studies are an excellent idea! In the software industry, usability can be a make-or-break event; companies that invest in them are investing in their future success. As a new indexer, I'd love to study usability to help me write better indexes for the user. Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: Dan Connolly [mailto:connolly@NECA.COM] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:26 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: page reference (cross-posted to ASI-L from Index-L---sorry about the repeat for many) I think Nick has a good point here, in particular. In general, I note that he relies on his own experience in making indexing decisions: "I have no idea how many others use indexes the way I do, but my own experience is all I have to go on." I have confidence that he has good instincts (esp. since I agree with him on this issue) but there are legitimate questions over which method might be better. Does anyone think it would be a good idea for ASI (or another organization) to set up some index usability studies so that we can obtain some objective data when confronted with these types of problems? I don't have experience in setting up such a formal event, but I'm sure some listmates out there would be able to give us some feedback on necessary sample size for validity, etc. We could brainstorm and come up with topics (this is one, indented vs. run-in might be another, and so on). If people are interested, I will collect topics, while hoping for input on how to set this up. I'm sure we could develop a 2 or 3 page written survey and have various listmembers give them to their local libraries to administer to volunteers. Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents List ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com/indexstudents.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: nkoenig To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:27 PM Subject: Re: page reference > I used to follow this practice myself. Then as I was > editing an index with XXX 43-44 in it I first went to > p. 43 and scanned it. I was about to conclude I had > made a mistake when I realized XXX must appear > on the top of the next page. After this occurred a number > of times I have started using only the locator on which the > word appears, even it it appears in a sentence that begins > on the previous page. I have no idea how many others > use indexes the way I do, but my own experience is all I > have to go on. A reader will quickly see that an indexed > word appears in an incomplete sentence and will flip to the > next page to view the beginning. It may take a bit longer > to figure out that the word appears on the next page in the > sentence than begins at the bottom of the page being scanned. > > Nick Koenig > > > > > >And, yes, if an indexable term appears on, say, p. 122, but the sentence > >it's in starts on p. 121, I use 121-22 as the locator. What I'm indexing > >isn't just the word itself but what the author is saying about it, and it's > >(usually) the entire sentence that gives me that. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:34:41 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" I guess I'm being a little crabby today, but I'd rather not see ads on this list. Otherwise people might post any ad that seems appropriate. (But it would still be an ad.) Am I being too harsh? Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: Christin Keck [mailto:shecrab@CONCENTRIC.NET] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:52 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: A good tip from the Tipworld folks For those of you who are interested, this seemed like a really good tip. BUYING BARGAINS Running a business from home means you must keep a sharp eye on expenses. Deals.com is a site that can help you keep a close rein on expenses while purchasing items you need for your small business. Deals.com sells brand-name products at discounts of up to 90 percent. The company does this by buying directly from companies needing to liquidate their overproduced or discontinued inventory at huge discounts. Deals.com then passes its savings to you. You can find bargains on apparel, jewelry, home furnishings, sports, travel, and so on. For small business needs, the Electronics and Home & Office categories offer phones, answering machines, modems, computers, surge protectors, file cabinets, and more. The site updates its deals every day, so you may want to check the New Deals section often. You can also sign up to receive new product updates via e-mail. You'll find the site at http://www.deals.com -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit my domain http://www.seekaye.com or the World of Whislbabe in Geocities, SoHo/Square/4033 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:05:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: greenhou@EROLS.COM Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Karen. If we wanted the tips from Tipworld, Christin Keck has given us the resource to subscribe ourselves. Thanks for thinking of us, Christin, When you find a good tip, give us only the part that pertains to small businesses, or just give us a URL to go to rather than reproduce the entire thing. Shelley Greenhouse Index-L participant & database indexer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:31:48 -0500 Reply-To: shecrab@concentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: All the time. It's my job. Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Field wrote: > > I guess I'm being a little crabby today, but I'd rather not see ads on this > list. Otherwise people might post any ad that seems appropriate. (But it > would still be an ad.) Am I being too harsh? > > Karen Field > Sr. Technical Writer > Stellcom, Inc. > kfield@stellcom.com This wasn't an ad. I was forwarding on a good tip I got in MY mailbox. That's why I said "This isn't an advertisment or spam" at the top. I was trying to help those us who have home-based businesses. I don't see there's anything wrong with it. I'm not selling anything, or promoting anything. And frankly, if someone has a good place where I, as a home-based businessperson, might find a decent deal, then where better to post the information? Isn't this one of the things we subscribe to this list for? -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: shecrab@concentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: All the time. It's my job. Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit greenhou@EROLS.COM wrote: > > I agree with Karen. If we wanted the tips from Tipworld, Christin Keck > has given us the resource to subscribe ourselves. Thanks for thinking of > us, Christin, When you find a good tip, give us only the part that > pertains to small businesses, or just give us a URL to go to rather than > reproduce the entire thing. > > Shelley Greenhouse > Index-L participant & database indexer That's what I DID do....what IS the problem here? -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:22:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Christin, I didn't mean to upset you. Perhaps I was objecting most to the reposting of the marketing material. It "felt" like spam to me, which, despite the firewall I sit behind at work, somehow makes it to my Inbox daily. I don't want to see that stuff on the lists I'm part of as well. I like Shelley's idea of posting the link without the info. That's what I would be comfortable with. What concerns me most is that this could become a regular occurrance (sp?); then the list would be of little value to me. I'm interested in what the listowner has to say on the issue. Charlotte? Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: Christin Keck [mailto:shecrab@CONCENTRIC.NET] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:32 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks Karen Field wrote: > > I guess I'm being a little crabby today, but I'd rather not see ads on this > list. Otherwise people might post any ad that seems appropriate. (But it > would still be an ad.) Am I being too harsh? > > Karen Field > Sr. Technical Writer > Stellcom, Inc. > kfield@stellcom.com This wasn't an ad. I was forwarding on a good tip I got in MY mailbox. That's why I said "This isn't an advertisment or spam" at the top. I was trying to help those us who have home-based businesses. I don't see there's anything wrong with it. I'm not selling anything, or promoting anything. And frankly, if someone has a good place where I, as a home-based businessperson, might find a decent deal, then where better to post the information? Isn't this one of the things we subscribe to this list for? -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:39:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Christin, you reposted the marketing literature, which begins with "BUYING BARGAINS. Running a home business..." with the link following the paragraphs at the bottom of the message. Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: Christin Keck [mailto:shecrab@CONCENTRIC.NET] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:56 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks greenhou@EROLS.COM wrote: > > I agree with Karen. If we wanted the tips from Tipworld, Christin Keck > has given us the resource to subscribe ourselves. Thanks for thinking of > us, Christin, When you find a good tip, give us only the part that > pertains to small businesses, or just give us a URL to go to rather than > reproduce the entire thing. > > Shelley Greenhouse > Index-L participant & database indexer That's what I DID do....what IS the problem here? -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: "David K. Ream" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc. Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You don't need the mouse for OK !! OK is normally the same as hitting Enter on the keyboard. And ESC is for Cancel. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:53 PM Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade > Hi Ina, > > In CINDEX for Windows, the main thing you need the mouse for it "OK." Almost > everything else can be controlled from your keyboard. > > I forget to think about what the strokes are, but my hands know the commands, > because I've been doing them for so long. Since I moved to a touchpad, even > "mousing" has become less of an issue for the times I need it. > > Barbara E. Cohen > Indianapolis, IN > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:44:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: [ASI-L] Re: page reference Comments: To: "INTERNET:ASI-L@onelist.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, Dan. For more info on usability testing on indexes, you might want t= o contact Jared Spool, founder of User Interface Engineering. He is a usability expert and I believe he has some info on index usability studie= s. His e-mail address is: jspool@uie.com Another good resource is a book by Jeffrey Rubin: Handbook of Usability Testing: How to Plan, Design, and Conduct Effectiveness Tests (ISBN 0-471-59403-2) published by John Wiley & Sons. Happy indexing! .... Lori Lori Lathrop - LoriLathrop@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services - http://idt.net/~lathro19 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:53:51 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CINDEX .RTF hangup (was: Computer and Cindex upgrade) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/99 5:38:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dick Evans (infodex@MINDSPRING.COM) writes: > I've been running Cindex 6.1 for DOS under Win 95 and now Win 98 for years. > The only problem I've ever had is that the path name to the NDX files should > conform to DOS naming conventions. Otherwise, I have occasional quirky > failures, most notably Cindex sometimes crashes when trying to generate an > RTF file. Dick et al - CINDEX 6.1 for DOS runs beautifully under WIN95, but I also ran into that problem when writing an .RTF file. CINDEX occasionally hangs the system. But when I go back and check, I find that the .RTF file actually has been written. The problem seems to be intermittent and unpredictable. CINDEX tech support has worked hard to identify and reproduce it, but with no luck. They even have sent me a new, chemically-pure, system disk. Still happens, especially when I am really under a crunch deadline. I suspect that this is a capricious anomaly (read: Feature) of my current system. Or a psychic manifestation. Take your pick. So why not use CINWIN 1.5, which is much better behaved? I know, I know - - I'm a Certified Curmudgeon, and CIN6.1 is a comfortable old shoe, albeit a bit out of style. I guess that if I am tenacious enough, saddle shoes will come back.... I have found that a useful workaround for this is to specify the complete pathname and filename when giving the PRINT/FILE command, and not simply type PRINT/FILE and leave the rest blank. For example: PRINT/FILE=C:/CINDEX61/FOLDER1/INDEX1.RTF Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:02:31 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/1999 9:35:12 AM Central Standard Time, igravitz@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US writes: << How well does Cindex for DOS 6.0 run on either Win 95 >> Runs very well. I have no problems. I run it in a window with Windows 95 running. The Cindex web site has a PDF file (requires the free Adobe Reader) called Migrate. It explains many of the changes that migrating from Cindex for DOS to the Windows version entails. It is very detailed. Included is a complete list of keyboard commands. The site also has a demo version. www.indexres.com I am still fond of my DOS Cindex, but some of the Windows features are tempting. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:47:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: computer and Cindex upgrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:26:46 -0500 Gravitz writes: > I am planning on upgrading my old Win 3.1. > I am a devoted Cindex for DOS 6.0 user. I would greatly appreciate > feedback on 2 issues: > 1)How well does Cindex for DOS 6.0 run on either Win 95 or Win 98? Any > problems? > 2)What are the experiences of indexers who have migrated from Cindex for > DOS to Cindex for Windows? I'm really used to keystrokes and am somewhat > clumsy with a mouse. (Poor eye-hand coordination I guess!) > Thanks in advance, > Ina Gravitz I don't use Cindex for DOS, but I do use another vintage DOS indexing program, the Micro Indexing System (one of the earliest indexing programs), originally written for MS-DOS 1.0. Well, I'm still using it, in DOS. I have a dual-boot system. I use Windows 95 for e-mail and a few games and I use PC-DOS 6.1 for my indexing, my word processing program, my databases and anything else serious. If you are comfortable with a program in DOS, why do you have to switch to Windows? In my humble opinion, DOS is a much more stable environment than Windows. The problem is that Windows keeps up a constant fight with old DOS programs, that is why I have a dual-boot system. My old DOS programs either won't run at all, or will run with major problems under Windows. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 03:06:54 -0500 Reply-To: William Sternman Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Sternman Subject: How do I become an indexer? I have 20+ years of professional writing experience -- advertising copy, book and movie reviewing, and short stories. I also have about a year's experience as a typesetter, which involved some copyediting, and took a night course in copyediting at Temple University. How do I go about becoming an indexer? Thanks for any help you can give me. All the best. Bill http://www.angelfire.com/pa/jason888/resume.html We need not think alike to love alike. Francis David Unitarian matryr Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:32:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: How do I become an indexer? In-Reply-To: <199912020806.AAA14156@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" William wrote: >I have 20+ years of professional writing experience -- advertising copy, >book and movie reviewing, and short stories. I also have about a year's >experience as a typesetter, which involved some copyediting, and took a >night course in copyediting at Temple University. > >How do I go about becoming an indexer? Your history is a splendid preparation for indexing. I recommend taking a full-length course in indexing, either through the USDA Correspondence school or the Society of Indexers (SI) in Britain. Links to the USDA course can be found on the ASI Web site (http://www.asindexing.org), and the SI course can be found on their site (http://www.socind.demon.co.uk). I took the course, no longer available, through the University of California at Berkeley--the curriculum of the USDA course is nearly identical--and I certainly learned to understand the kinds of issues that I would encounter writing indexes, and a variety of ways to address them. The course has been invaluable. What the course could not prepare me for were certain realities of doing book-length indexing (the assignments being, necessarily, not book-length), among them: 1) the energy and time required, 2) the sheer numbers of entries to be held in consciousness, 3) the exigencies of deadlines. I had worked in publishing for 15+ years at that point, so the deadline part was not unfamiliar; meeting deadlines given the difficulties of items 1 and 2 was, in the beginning, however, quite challenging (deadlines remain challenging but for different reasons). The course taught me the conventions of index preparation, which of course makes it possible to present oneself in a skilled, professional manner. I was mentored in indexing law. I had also received a Certificate in Technical and Professional Writing, which gave my eventual resume even more impact. I did volunteer projects at the beginning, valid projects that were published as indexes, but with nonstressful deadlines. I didn't prepare a resume until I had some volunteer projects (a group newspaper-indexing project, a friend's book) and jobs indexing law and business materials to present, but that was because the part-time indexing work had come, and I was still working as a formatting typesetter of fine books. I needed a resume when I went to full-time indexing. Your background will give you an impressive resume which will make it much easier to get your first job indexing. With your experience and training, you could admit you have little experience on your resume and still have a great advantage over people with less experience in publishing and writing, depending on your areas of expertise. Not all publishers have an idea of what is required to write good indexes, but most publishers recognize a promising resume. Target publishers according to your expertise and interests, and include that information on your resume and in the cover letter. I started off doing anything I could get, and gradually began refusing the areas of study that I didn't enjoy. While I have a generalist's background, my desire for perfection lead me to want to specialize. After 10+ years, that is beginning to happen, in my field (art). Membership in an indexing society such as ASI, SI, or the Canadian, South African, Australian, or Chinese societies can also be an invaluable aid to networking and ongoing education. Best of luck to you, William! --Victoria At 12:06 AM 12/02/1999 , you wrote: >I have 20+ years of professional writing experience -- advertising copy, >book and movie >reviewing, and short stories. I also have about a year's experience as a >typesetter, which >involved some copyediting, and took a night course in copyediting at Temple >University. > >How do I go about becoming an indexer? > >Thanks for any help you can give me. > >All the best. > >Bill > > > >http://www.angelfire.com/pa/jason888/resume.html > >We need not think alike to love alike. > Francis David > Unitarian matryr > > >Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com vbaker@asis.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:38:25 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Input devices In-Reply-To: <0.522e7b2e.2576c8c1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > touchpad, even "mousing" has become less of an issue for the times I need I have just moved to a touchpad too. I think it is an improvement. I find with all these pointer input devices that I get very tensed up trying to move the cursor accurately. It is an unnatural kind of function since what happens is remote from the position of one's hand. I end up with an arm that feels as if it has done heavy lifting rather than just moving a small rodent. Another possible improvement is to use a macro editor such as Macro Express to substitute keystrokes for moving the mouse cursor to certain positions on the screen. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Input devices Comments: To: "jsampson@indexes.u-net.com" Cindex 1.5 has a build in macro writer/recorder. > -----Original Message----- > From: J.R. Sampson [SMTP:jsampson@indexes.u-net.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 5:38 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Input devices > > > touchpad, even "mousing" has become less of an issue for the > times I need > > I have just moved to a touchpad too. I think it is an improvement. I > find with all these pointer input devices that I get very tensed up > trying to move the cursor accurately. It is an unnatural kind of > function since what happens is remote from the position of one's > hand. I end up with an arm that feels as if it has done heavy lifting > rather than just moving a small rodent. > > Another possible improvement is to use a macro editor such as > Macro Express to substitute keystrokes for moving the mouse cursor > to certain positions on the screen. > > Regards > > _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:36:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: CINDEX .RTF hangup (was: Computer and Cindex upgrade) In-Reply-To: <199912020357.WAA05710@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The problem seems to be intermittent and unpredictable. CINDEX > tech support > has worked hard to identify and reproduce it, but with no luck. They even > have sent me a new, chemically-pure, system disk. Still happens, > especially > when I am really under a crunch deadline. I suspect that this is a > capricious anomaly (read: Feature) of my current system. Or a psychic > manifestation. Whenever this happens to me, it is *always* corrected by moving the NDX file to a pathname that is DOS-compliant. I try to keep all my NDX files in a simple DOS directory tree anyway, but every once in a while I'll forget and misname a directory and suffer the consequences. It was the folks at Cindex who originally clued me in to this. I had been suspecting it had something to do with the *length* of the path, since many of my files were five or more levels deep. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:40:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Usability studies (was: Page references) In-Reply-To: <199912012234.RAA14997@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I think usability studies are an excellent idea! In the software industry, > usability can be a make-or-break event; companies that invest in them are > investing in their future success. As a new indexer, I'd love to study > usability to help me write better indexes for the user. > We've talked about doing this (setting up and conducting a usability test) at a future conference. (Yours truly was a human factors engineer before he was an indexer.) As organizer of the Albuquerque conference, I haven't had the time to set it up for 2000, but maybe we could do something for 2001 in Boston. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:25:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Usability studies (was: Page references) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe that's something that the Massachusetts chapter would like to participate in developing. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Evans To: Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Usability studies (was: Page references) > > > > > > I think usability studies are an excellent idea! In the software industry, > > usability can be a make-or-break event; companies that invest in them are > > investing in their future success. As a new indexer, I'd love to study > > usability to help me write better indexes for the user. > > > > We've talked about doing this (setting up and conducting a usability test) > at a future conference. (Yours truly was a human factors engineer before he > was an indexer.) As organizer of the Albuquerque conference, I haven't had > the time to set it up for 2000, but maybe we could do something for 2001 in > Boston. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 08:28:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tanya Novak Subject: Usability studies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A handy site on this topic is: http://usableweb.com/ Usable Web: 736 links about web usability "The ultimate comprehensive collection of useful links" - Jakob Nielsen Last update: December 2, 1999. By Keith Instone. Usable Web is a collection of links about human factors, user interface issues, and usable design specific to the World Wide Web. Value adds: descriptions, multiple organizational schemes (by date, site, topic, popularity), search engine queries to even more resources. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:57:22 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: page ranges (LONG MESSAGE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I passed on Peter Rooney's message (along with other messages in the same digest) to my two immediate predecessors as editors of The Indexer, Janet Shuter and Hazel Bell. Here are their responses. First, Janet Shuter wrote: 3) "passim" is a great word. Use of it was discouraged by Hans Wellisch, >who must not be a Latin-lover. He stepped into the void of no >standards, wrote a book, and proclaimed that "passim" was passe. Likewise >he banned the useful devices "f" and "ff" (121f means 121-122; 121ff >means 121 and a few pages more). I think Wellisch claims that index users >dont understand these Latin tags. Well, they don't understand a lot, but >that doesnt mean we need to write to the lowest standard. I appreciate that Peter Rooney is new to indexing, and clearly not a reader of ^The Indexer^ as his extraordinary dismissal of Hans Wellisch, one of the few true scholars in the indexing profession, indicates -- but even for a new indexer his lack of awareness of the Indexing Standard is worrying. The International Standard ISO 999: 1996 ^Information and documentation -- guidelines for the content organization and presentation of indexes^ is readily available for purchase from standards organisations worldwide, and is referred to in all the recent books on indexing as well as many journal articles. It has been formally adopted in most countries, although not in the USA because the ANSI/NISO committee at one time hoped to publish an American Standard based on an independent reworking of the superseded British Standard BS3700, on which ISO999 is also based. Wellisch represented ANSI/ NISO on ISO TC46 SC9's working group on ISO 999, and made many valuable contributions to the standard. I (like Wellisch a pro-Latinist in the right context) entirely endorse his comments on range numbers, and of course his book says the same thing as the standard -- and for the reason given: that indexes are composed for information users, not not as a demonstration of the erudition (or more often non-erudition) of the indexer. Since the majority of modern indexes are to technical and ephemeral material they should rely as little as possible on the end-user's possible knowledge of 19th century literary conventions. I do, however, like Rooney's suggestion of a tilde instead of a hyphen or en-dash to link a range of locators. At present, however, indexing software is not capable of doing this, and we also have to take into account the problem of using a character outside the basic ASCII set in a range of print and display software. Janet Shuter (Chair of BSI DISC Technical Committee IDT2/2 on indexing and thesaurus construction, former ISO Project Leader for ISO999 and former editor, The Indexer.) [ends] Next, Hazel Bell: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Contacting the listowner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, All. How can I contact the listowner directly? I've looked through the "list how to" I received when I subscribed, but I don't see a direct email to the listowner. Can anyone help? TIA Karen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:16:44 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Usability studies (was: Page references) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << We've talked about doing this (setting up and conducting a usability test) at a future conference. (Yours truly was a human factors engineer before he was an indexer.) As organizer of the Albuquerque conference, I haven't had the time to set it up for 2000, but maybe we could do something for 2001 in Boston. >> The wait is a problem. It looks like a really good topic/project. Why wait so long? This list is international and has a good number of people interested in usability/methods/standards. I'd love to see a group approach this as an independent project with the aim of publishing the results. I'm sure Microsoft already has research on this, there were peripheral details in a talk at the Seattle conference, but the majority of their research may be confidential since it would play a role in the success of their products. Maybe we need a literature search. Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:51:47 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: HyperIndex 6.1.3 In-Reply-To: <38459865.D32CFEBB@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Upon reading ads in KEY WORDS about this product, I'd like to hear how users like the program? Please send information about your experience with the program to my personal address and I'll be glad to send on any responses to those interested. Thanks. Naomi ****************************************************************************** J. NAOMI LINZER: INDEXING SERVICE Post Office Box 1341, Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** The Word of the Day is: quodlibet \KWAHD-lih-bet\ (noun) 1 : a philosophical or theological point proposed for disputation; also : a disputation on such a point *2 : a whimsical combination of familiar melodies or texts ****************************************************************************** * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:51:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: PW Resource Directory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Upon reading the recent ad in KEY WORDS about this service, I'd like to know more about the service from indexers who subscribe. . . .costs and returns, for example. Thanks. Naomi ****************************************************************************** J. NAOMI LINZER: INDEXING SERVICE Post Office Box 1341, Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** The Word of the Day is: quodlibet \KWAHD-lih-bet\ (noun) 1 : a philosophical or theological point proposed for disputation; also : a disputation on such a point *2 : a whimsical combination of familiar melodies or texts ****************************************************************************** * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:09:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: page ranges (LONG MESSAGE) Comments: To: hkbell@dial.pipex.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Christine Shuttleworth To: Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 11:57 AM Subject: Re: page ranges (LONG MESSAGE) > > Next, Hazel Bell: > > May I also take issue with Dan Connolly, who explains that he has no > specific advice on pricing, then gives four paragraphs of it, chiefly, > `You'll need to get what you're happy with'. I hope to produce two small > anthologies of items from *The lndexer*, and would be happy to get 500 > pounds per copy, but think I should also take into account in pricing what > prospective buyers might be persuaded to pay. > Hazel Bell > hkbell@dial.pipex.com You may indeed take issue, Hazel (I will copy this to your e-mail address), but perhaps you needn't. I didn't have a specific dollar figure ("specific advice on pricing"), but had some more general comments about determining price. My use of the word "happy" may have been misinterpreted. I meant that he should try to get what he'll be "content" with, taking into account the factors that I mentioned, with web resources for his further perusal. These factors are all legitmate in determining a price, as you probably know. I would guess that you may be more than "happy" to get 500 pounds per copy of your anthology. I'm sure there is a lower, and more realistic, figure that you'd be "content" to receive. Another issue is that he needn't bother offering it to the public if he isn't satisfied with the price he is likely to get. If his calculations lead him to conclude that $10 is the lowest price he can realistically charge in order to make money (based on projected sales, etc.), but his market research indicates that $5 is the most buyers may be willing to pay, then he might just as well abort the project before sinking money into it. Best/Dan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:12:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: page reference In-Reply-To: <003f01bf3bcd$b28a3640$bdcf23cb@jon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If an indexable topic appears on pp. 121-122 and the operative term for indexing the topic appears on p. 122 I use 121-22 as the locator, not only because I'm indexing the whole topic but also because I think this stands to make the reader's task of finding the indexing term in the text not harder but easier. The point is that in most cases the user looking up a two-page page range does not need to spend time looking for the indexed term through the entire first page but only to look around the bottom of the first page or the top of the second page. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:55:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: page ranges (LONG MESSAGE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janet Shuter comments: "I appreciate that Peter Rooney is new to indexing, and clearly not a reader of ^The Indexer^ as his extraordinary dismissal of Hans Wellisch, one of the few true scholars in the indexing profession, indicates -- but even for a new indexer his lack of awareness of the Indexing Standard is worrying." I got a good laugh out of that passage. I've been indexing for 30 years. If my failing memory can be relied on, I knew Peter almost the entire 30 years. Also, not everyone sees Wellisch as a deity. There is no requirement that any of us must agree with him on everything or anything. Unlike, Peter, I don't care for "passim," "f" or "ff," but I have no problem with his rejecting Wellisch's advice. Both Peter Rooney and I know who Hans Wellisch is. We both have read "The Indexer" for several decades, at least. Finally, we both have areas in which we disagree with Wellisch. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:07:24 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Usability studies (was: Page references) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon: I agree. (See my post on Strategic Planning this morning). I would like to do something at this conference. If not a workshop, at least a roundtable, but I see a workshop. We have enough people who have responded to this thread in the last 48 hours to get something together for Albuquerque. Do you want to work together on it? We should also talk to Fred Leise, who is already running such a workshop. Diana SHughes512@AOL.COM wrote: > << We've talked about doing this (setting up and conducting a usability test) > at a future conference. (Yours truly was a human factors engineer before he > was an indexer.) As organizer of the Albuquerque conference, I haven't had > the time to set it up for 2000, but maybe we could do something for 2001 in > Boston. >> > > The wait is a problem. It looks like a really good topic/project. Why > wait so long? This list is international and has a good number of people > interested in usability/methods/standards. I'd love to see a group approach > this as an independent project with the aim of publishing the results. I'm > sure Microsoft already has research on this, there were peripheral details in > a talk at the Seattle conference, but the majority of their research may be > confidential since it would play a role in the success of their products. > Maybe we need a literature search. > Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:53:05 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Re: A good tip from the Tipworld folks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Field >Christin, I didn't mean to upset you. Perhaps I was objecting most to the >reposting of the marketing material. It "felt" like spam to me, which, >despite the firewall I sit behind at work, somehow makes it to my Inbox >daily. I don't want to see that stuff on the lists I'm part of as well. > >I like Shelley's idea of posting the link without the info. That's what I >would be comfortable with. What concerns me most is that this could become a >regular occurrance (sp?); then the list would be of little value to me. I would rather spend as long as it takes to scroll down twice and find out what it is all about than click on the URL and have to wait while it comes up (and, not having free local calls, spend money on the process). As it is, I know I don't want it, but if Christin had left out the extra info I might be wondering.... It would be pretty terrible if everyone made a frequent habit of it, but in the mean time I'm happy to look through it quickly and pass on. Best wishes Christine Christine Headley Copyeditor and Indexer Stroud, Glos ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Page ranges In-Reply-To: <001301bf3ba1$6e11d8a0$93cf23cb@jon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:51 PM 11/30/99 +1100, Glenda wrote: >. . . >I am a great believer in the 'Keep it Simple' principle, both for indexer >and reader, and I group page ranges whether or not they look funny. > >When I use an index I like to be able to skip between index and text as >easily as possible. If I have to look to the index three times instead of >once (ie, look for 11, 12, 13 instead of seeing 11-13) I feel I have wasted >time. When I see three consecutive page numbers I notice them as a group and don't look back to the index three times. > >In my head I see 11, 12, 13 and say 'there is stuff on pages 11-13'. >To save the user this step I combine page ranges in my indexes. >. . . >To justify the use of the individual page numbers I would have to feel that >the user benefits. Seeing 11, 12, 13 I note that there are three noncontinuous discussions of the topic: this information helps me focus my search in the text, and as an indexer I want to provide readers with this benefit if my publisher's indexing guidelines allow it. However, having said this on behalf of maintaining the accuracy of locators I also want to acknowledge the value of simplicity. For one thing, I'm not ashamed to admit that when space has been short I myself have compressed and concatenated separate page numbers into page ranges to save lines. ;-) What's more interesting to me at this moment is that we could simplify page numbers in this way and also preserve their accuracy substantially by using the format mentioned earlier in this thread, 11-13(3). I wonder whether anybody finds this option attractive. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:58:01 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: page ranges (LONG MESSAGE) In-Reply-To: <19991202.135545.-187133.1.elinzer@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ditto to Elliot's comments from me - and I go back a long ways in indexing as well - to the days when Hans Wellisch was in the doctoral program at the University of Maryland School of Library and Information Sciences and he certainly was no deity in the doctoral seminars that he and I were in then! Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642, Seattle, WA 98115-0642 5028 37th Ave. NE, Seattle, WA 98105 (non-USPS deliveries) Voice: 206-985-8799, 206-524-6624 Cell Phone: 206-841-5209 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Elliot Linzer Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 10:56 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: page ranges (LONG MESSAGE) Janet Shuter comments: "I appreciate that Peter Rooney is new to indexing, and clearly not a reader of ^The Indexer^ as his extraordinary dismissal of Hans Wellisch, one of the few true scholars in the indexing profession, indicates -- but even for a new indexer his lack of awareness of the Indexing Standard is worrying." I got a good laugh out of that passage. I've been indexing for 30 years. If my failing memory can be relied on, I knew Peter almost the entire 30 years. Also, not everyone sees Wellisch as a deity. There is no requirement that any of us must agree with him on everything or anything. Unlike, Peter, I don't care for "passim," "f" or "ff," but I have no problem with his rejecting Wellisch's advice. Both Peter Rooney and I know who Hans Wellisch is. We both have read "The Indexer" for several decades, at least. Finally, we both have areas in which we disagree with Wellisch. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:04:31 -0600 Reply-To: Sandi Schroeder Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Fw: jobposting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01F4_01BF3CCE.27D58F20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01F4_01BF3CCE.27D58F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please direct any responses direct to Megan Scott. Sandi -----Original Message----- From: Megan Scott To: 'sanindex@schroederindexing.com' Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: jobposting >Dear Ms. Schroeder, > >I was given your name and e-mail address from my client, the American >Medical Association. They informed me that you could post the attached >available position for your members to view. > > <<113058 new media spec.doc>> > >If you have any questions or concerns let me know. We appreciate your >assistance in this matter. > >Thanks, >Megan Scott >JTC Advertising >312-640-4274 > ------=_NextPart_000_01F4_01BF3CCE.27D58F20 Content-Type: application/msword; name="113058 new media spec.doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="113058 new media spec.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAIQAAAAAAAAAA EAAAIwAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/99 1:50:58 PM Central Standard Time, dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET writes: << We have enough people who have responded to this thread in the last 48 hours to get something together for Albuquerque. Do you want to work together on it? We should also talk to Fred Leise, who is already running such a workshop. >> I'm a little cautious. I know that real "hard core" usability testing involves videotaping and enumerating and recording activities and a lot of statistics, technology, and test subjects who are uninformed about the product being tested. I'm interested enough to volunteer to work on literature research, and maybe some background interviews to see where we could go while maintaining our credibility with the testing community. I think that the product has to be statistically valid or its not worth doing. That's why I was hoping the members of the academic or industrial community here on INDEX-L would take it over and publish the results. Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:25:47 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: page ranges (SHORT MESSAGE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As long as linguistic conventions are explained in a note at the beginning of an index, a reader should be able to handle even a Tagalog word or two, much less a few in Latin. Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Page ranges > However, having said this on behalf of maintaining the accuracy of > locators > I also want to acknowledge the value of simplicity. For one thing, I'm > not > ashamed to admit that when space has been short I myself have compressed > and concatenated separate page numbers into page ranges to save lines. > ;-) > What's more interesting to me at this moment is that we could simplify > page numbers in this way and also preserve their accuracy substantially by > using the format mentioned earlier in this thread, 11-13(3). I wonder > whether anybody finds this option attractive. > > Michael > > I think this would lead most index users (including myself) to wonder what the little number in parentheses referred to. Note #3? Of course, this wouldn't work for me anyway because most of my references aren't to page numbers but rather to section numbers and parenthetical material is frequently part of the reference. If space is really an issue, I think most users can find three different references in a three page span without additional help from the index. If not, I don't think anything we do is going to help them. -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:09:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Natalie Boon Subject: Re: Usability studies Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 On Thu, 02 December 1999, SHughes512@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 12/2/99 1:50:58 PM Central Standard Time, > dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET writes: > > << We have enough people who have responded to this thread in the last 48 > hours to get something together for Albuquerque. Do you want to work > together on it? We > should also talk to Fred Leise, who is already running such a workshop. >> > > I'm a little cautious. I know that real "hard core" usability testing > involves videotaping and enumerating and recording activities and a lot of > statistics, technology, and test subjects who are uninformed about the > product being tested. I'm interested enough to volunteer to work on > literature research, and maybe some background interviews to see where we > could go while maintaining our credibility with the testing community. I > think that the product has to be statistically valid or its not worth doing. > That's why I was hoping the members of the academic or industrial community > here on INDEX-L would take it over and publish the results. > Sharon Hughes Sharon has some good points here. A critical one is that usability testing is should be done on potential users. Indexers themselves are far too knowledgeable about indexes in general when compared to the users of indexes. ----------------------------------------------------- Natalie Boon natalieboon@icqmail.com ICQ#: 52895289 Information Architect Institute for Leadership Development (ILD): A United Nations Global Partnership Program ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:13:38 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe I wasn't too clear. I wasn't suggesting we ourselves design a usability test, but rather put on a workshop at the conference to discuss how such studies and tests should be designed and used. I would see the workshop as a way to gather background materials for the design and implementation of usability tests. This material could then be used as a way of developing standards and perhaps a template for such testing that ASI could offer other organizations as a guideline for evaluating their indexes. I was not envisioning ASI getting into the usability study business, but I do think we should push for evaluation of indexes and materials that need indexing in the publishing field. Diana SHughes512@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 12/2/99 1:50:58 PM Central Standard Time, > dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET writes: > > << We have enough people who have responded to this thread in the last 48 > hours to get something together for Albuquerque. Do you want to work > together on it? We > should also talk to Fred Leise, who is already running such a workshop. >> > > I'm a little cautious. I know that real "hard core" usability testing > involves videotaping and enumerating and recording activities and a lot of > statistics, technology, and test subjects who are uninformed about the > product being tested. I'm interested enough to volunteer to work on > literature research, and maybe some background interviews to see where we > could go while maintaining our credibility with the testing community. I > think that the product has to be statistically valid or its not worth doing. > That's why I was hoping the members of the academic or industrial community > here on INDEX-L would take it over and publish the results. > Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:57:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Coffield, Janice M." Subject: Job posting LEXIS Publishing(tm) is looking for freelance legal indexers qualified to index statutory material, on a continuing basis, working from your own home or office. J.D. or significant legal indexing experience required. Work will be available beginning as early as January 2000 and continuing on an as-needed basis. Interested candidates should send a resume and applicable index samples if possible (statutory indexes preferred) to: LEXIS Publishing(tm) Attn: Janice Coffield, Rm 231 P.O. Box 7587 Charlottesville, VA 22906-7587 or e-mail janice.coffield@lexis-nexis.com Please do not reply to the listserv. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:28:13 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick, I think this is an excellent idea! I would love to be involved in a workshop or roundtable on establishing the criteria for developing usability studies/tests for indexes. I too have a background in human factors engineering. I know this is last minute, but if it is at all possible, but I think it would be great for Albuquerque. Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 11728 Elkhead Range Road Littleton, CO 80127-3706 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:58:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jmazefsky@AOL.COM Subject: New York Chapter: Informal meeting/pizza party - December 6---Reminder Comments: To: ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.4b7d78cc.2578539b_boundary" --part1_0.4b7d78cc.2578539b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_0.4b7d78cc.2578539b_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Jmazefsky@aol.com From: Jmazefsky@aol.com Full-name: Jmazefsky Message-ID: <0.e40afa2b.2564c91c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:14:36 EST Subject: Re:New York Chapter: Informal meeting/pizza party - December 6 To: ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Please join us for our next meeting on Monday, December 6, at 6 p.m. We'll have a pizza feast and an informal meeting; this isn't a business meeting, just a get together to discuss indexing issues and/or whatever anyone wants to discuss! Place: Maro Riofrancos' apartment 290 Riverside Drive Apt. 9A Entrance is on 101st St. Time: 6 p.m. Cost: Just chip in for pizza & BYOB RSVP to Maro .... 212-864-2121 --part1_0.4b7d78cc.2578539b_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:18:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/99 3:20:32 PM Central Standard Time, dlwitt@CONCENTRIC.NET writes: << Maybe I wasn't too clear. I wasn't suggesting we ourselves design a usability test, but rather put on a workshop at the conference to discuss how such studies and tests should be designed and used. I would see the workshop as a way to gather background materials for the design and implementation of usability tests. This material could then be used as a way of developing standards and perhaps a template for such testing that ASI could offer other organizations as a guideline for evaluating their indexes. I was not envisioning ASI getting into the usability study business, but I do think we should push for evaluation of indexes and materials that need indexing in the publishing field. Diana >> That sounds good to me. Sorry, I didn't get that from your first note. It also sounds like something that we could get some funding to support. You can count me in. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:26:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Usability studies In-Reply-To: <199912022233.RAA01896@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I think this is an excellent idea! I would love to be involved in a > workshop or roundtable on establishing the criteria for developing > usability studies/tests for indexes. I too have a background in human > factors engineering. I know this is last minute, but if it is at all > possible, but I think it would be great for Albuquerque. We don't have a full slate yet. If you want to send me a proposal, I'll add it to the list. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:25:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Hughes and I are talking about getting something ready for Albuquerque. I'm going to put together a proposal for Dick, and will get back to you when things are ready. I need all the help I can get. Diana Witt Susan Olason wrote: > Dick, > > I think this is an excellent idea! I would love to be involved in a > workshop or roundtable on establishing the criteria for developing > usability studies/tests for indexes. I too have a background in human > factors engineering. I know this is last minute, but if it is at all > possible, but I think it would be great for Albuquerque. > > Susan Olason > Indexes & Knowledge Maps > 11728 Elkhead Range Road > Littleton, CO 80127-3706 > 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:50:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Usability studies In-Reply-To: <384729FD.A150AEFD@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Diana: I could help with the research aspect of this topic, along with Sharon, and would be glad to help you with planning before the Conference next spring There is already some information on usability studies at various technical writing sites. It seems like working on such a topic would help us learn how to improve the quality of our indexes. Willa (enjoying a quiet evening before the hectic month of holiday celebrations begins.....) At 08:25 PM 12/2/99 -0600, you wrote: >Sharon Hughes and I are talking about getting something ready for >Albuquerque. I'm going to >put together a proposal for Dick, and will get back to you when things >are ready. I need all >the help I can get. >Diana Witt > >Susan Olason wrote: > > > Dick, > > > > I think this is an excellent idea! I would love to be involved in a > > workshop or roundtable on establishing the criteria for developing > > usability studies/tests for indexes. I too have a background in human > > factors engineering. I know this is last minute, but if it is at all > > possible, but I think it would be great for Albuquerque. > > > > Susan Olason > > Indexes & Knowledge Maps > > 11728 Elkhead Range Road > > Littleton, CO 80127-3706 > > 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:11:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: yet another Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My website is now up and running: http://pattonindexing.home.mindspring.com Deborah ================================ Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer deborahpatton@mindspring.com http://pattonindexing.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:37:12 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kjohnson24@AOL.COM Subject: Re: yet another Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Debbie! This is Kathy Johnson from the DC ASI chapter (we met at Do Mi's seminar). I liked your web site. I was green with envy when I read your resume...all I've done the last 20 years is be in the military (but I have been some interesting places and had some interesting jobs)! I guess the grass is always greener on the other side of the employment fence.... KJ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:00:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I want to pick your brains a bit. Does anyone know how much usability testing was done during/preparing for the ISO standards or the NISO standards? Were they both created from theoretical norms or did someone already design usability tests to confirm the usefulness of the standards? I'm not inclined to reinvent the wheel if this information is already "out there". Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:11:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SageWords1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: yet another Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy, Whoops! Wrong "Debbie." I'm Debbie Graf--I believe you're looking for Deborah Patton. The only reason I know you've got the wrong "Debbie" is because I wasn't even at Do Mi's seminar!!! Debbie Grar ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:35:54 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen G Kasoff Subject: Re: yet another Website When I tried to go here, I got the does not have a DNS entry bit. Suellen On Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:11:14 -0500 "Deborah E. Patton" writes: >My website is now up and running: >http://pattonindexing.home.mindspring.com > >Deborah > >================================ >Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer >deborahpatton@mindspring.com >http://pattonindexing.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: Re: yet another Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suellen wrote: >When I tried to go here, I got the does not have a DNS entry bit. Although people aren't reporting when it works, that error message that you're getting seems fluke-y. MindSpring is pretty stable, and lots of others have websites there. Have had lots of reports from people who have been successful. Try it again. all the best, Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gravitz Subject: Re: Cindex and computer upgrade In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've decidied to bite the bullet and not only upgrade my 3.1 to 98, but also to go whole hog and get CinWin1.5. Much thanks to everyone for all their comments. Hope to meet you in Albuquerque, Ina Gravitz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:56:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon: Thank you for that suggestion that we determine how many usability studies went into the "standards." I'd also like an evaluation of the quality of the standards, if they exist. I've also gone to library school (as someone in a tangential discussion did) and I have had better doctoral level research stolen from my apartment than is produced in most ALA - accredited institutions, which refuse to develop this and other professions in ways that would produce professionals in numbers our society needs. I don't trust men like the professor who is quoted in justifying passim, f, and ff's elimination. Perhaps he is right. What we need are good usability studies, or knowledge that such exist, on things such as passim and f and ff. There have been anti - intellectual trends in this country. I believe that when we stop teaching traditions that work, we participate in those trends if we didn't do the testing. Yes, I railed at their use when I was beginning to read, but when they were there I looked at the key to see what they mean. And, yes, I eschew Latin if getting rid of it allows more people to understand what is written. Only a good, solid usability test of how readers use indexes built with and without those features can tell us if they are worth keeping! Max Dalrymple, MLS mdalry@sr66.com -----Original Message----- From: SHughes512@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Friday, December 03, 1999 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Usability studies >Hi all, > I want to pick your brains a bit. Does anyone know how much usability >testing was done during/preparing for the ISO standards or the NISO >standards? Were they both created from theoretical norms or did someone >already design usability tests to confirm the usefulness of the standards? >I'm not inclined to reinvent the wheel if this information is already "out >there". > Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:19:14 -0600 Reply-To: Sandi Schroeder Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Key Words Editor Comments: To: ASI-L , indexstudent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The ASI board is seeking content editor(s) for Key Words. Key Words is published 6 times per year. Issues are currently limited to 32 pages and a shipping weight of 3 ounces per issue. Print runs average 1200 copies per issue. The Key Words Managing Editor(s) must be current member(s) of ASI, who will be responsible for soliciting contributions, editing and proofreading copy, and transmitting files in electronic format to the Association office for production. Editors will not be responsible for production. Appointment as Managing Editor, Contributing Editor(s) and columnists will be for a three-year term with the mutual option (Editor and ASI Board) of one additional term. All editors/columnists serve at the pleasure of the Board of ASI. Please send a résumé or letter detailing your experience in editing/writing for professional publications to the address given below and let us know if you are interested in being the main editor, a contributing editor or columnist, or if you would like to contribute in some other way, perhaps by fact checking or proofreading. The deadline for submitting a resume is December 15, 1999 Charles R. Anderson Chair, Key Words Editor Search Committee E-Mail: kw-ed-srch@the-indexer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:31:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/3/99 1:01:39 PM Central Standard Time, mdalry@SR66.COM writes: << Only a good, solid usability test of how readers use indexes built with and without those features can tell us if they are worth keeping! >> My whole background is based on the use of solid data to build and check theories. I remember working with a group of surgeons to design a "clinical pathway" for a specific surgery. All the surgeons KNEW that part of proper recovery was the transition to solid food on the third day after surgery.. no question. But when we looked at the data after 6 months of collection, we found that only 1 patient in 8 was eating solid food on the third day, that 7 out of 8 went home on soft food in 6 days and there were no complications or problems. The whole solid food thing was a myth. Sometimes we don't really know what we think we know. We just accept. Because that's what has always been done. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:53:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jmazefsky@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: NY Chapter, Mon. Dec. 6 get-together cancelled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.103de70f.257acb40_boundary" --part1_0.103de70f.257acb40_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_0.103de70f.257acb40_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Jmazefsky@aol.com From: Jmazefsky@aol.com Full-name: Jmazefsky Message-ID: <0.1783f60c.257aca71@aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:50:09 EST Subject: NY Chapter, Mon. Dec. 6 get-together cancelled To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINHAMTON.EDU, ASI-L@ONELIST.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Hi all - We've had to cancel the above pizza party/get together and will reschedule for mid-January or mid-February: exact date to be determined later. Janet --part1_0.103de70f.257acb40_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:03:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SageWords1@AOL.COM Subject: Holiday Tipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Last week, I put a question out to the list about holiday tipping for=20 overnight delivery people who deliver our page proofs faithfully throughout=20 the year. Since I didn't receive any responses, I went out and did an=20 Internet search today to see what I could find! Following are some=20 guidelines I found at "newchoices.com." The guidelines include "private=20 package carriers." It's now so close to holiday time, that I thought others= =20 might be interested, too: Who Gets What for the Holidays? =20 Here are some suggested amounts for holiday tips. Keep in mind that these=20 figures are approximate: The larger the city and fancier your address, the=20 more you=E2=80=99re usually expected to tip.=20 Babysitter: two to three nights=E2=80=99 pay; more if you use the sitter sev= eral=20 times a week. Barber: price of one haircut minimum; more if you=E2=80=99ve been going to t= hat=20 barber for a long time. Building handyman: $10 to $20; more if he helps you on a regular basis. Building superintendent: $20 to $75, depending on where you live. Consider a= =20 $100 tip if you are new to a building, engaged in a major renovation, or=20 running a business from your apartment. Cleaning person: one week=E2=80=99s salary for the first year; two weeks or=20= more=20 thereafter. Delivery person (florist, dry cleaner, take-out food): $5 to $10 if it=E2=80= =99s=20 someone you see repeatedly. Dog walker or pet sitter: one day=E2=80=99s pay. Doorman: $15 to $100; more if you run a business from home and have many=20 visitors or receive a lot of packages. Garage attendant: varies depending on how often you take your car out, but=20 the general rule of thumb is half a month=E2=80=99s rent divided among the e= mployees;=20 if you=E2=80=99re an occasional user, $20 to $25. Gardener: $10 per person if it=E2=80=99s a team, $15 to the boss. Hairstylist: the price of one typical appointment; more if you are a regular= ,=20 longtime customer. Manicurist: $5 to $15. Nanny or au pair: one week=E2=80=99s salary for the first year of work; two=20= weeks or=20 more thereafter. But make adjustments depending on your income. Newspaper carrier: $5 to $20. Personal trainer or masseuse: the cost of one or two sessions; slightly more= =20 if the person comes to your home or office. Private package carrier (such as UPS or Federal Express):$10 minimum; more i= f=20 you have frequent pickups. Secretary or personal assistant: If you run your own business, give a week= =E2=80=99s=20 salary for the first year of work, two weeks or more thereafter; if you both= =20 work for a company you don=E2=80=99t own, give a noncash present, such as a=20= scarf,=20 book, or plant. Shampoo person: $5 to $15. Shoeshine person: $5 to $15. U.S. mail carrier:It=E2=80=99s a federal offense for mail carriers to accept= cash or=20 cash equivalents (such as gift certificates). However, you might include a=20 note of thanks with a small present. Waiter or maitre d=E2=80=99: $10 to $25 if you dine regularly at the same re= staurant. Happy holidays to everyone! Debbie Graf Sage Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Re: Usability studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This thread is very interesting to me, but I'm lost (lost the thread). Could someone please summarize - how did it get started? is it an offshoot from the "References" thread? (that was about formatting of strings like "121-122, 122-123"). Who's in charge? who's volunteered to carry it forward? Offhand, I think it would be very difficult to measure even the above example ("121-122, 122-123"). What is measured - precision or recall? is lookup time and ease a factor? what text and index is being used? a real one? a made up one? what is the size of the research population? We want an answer to which is better: "121-122, 122-123" or "121-123". What kind of answer do we expect to get? Expectantly ... Peter Rooney magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:55:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Usability studies In-Reply-To: <199912052234.RAA09370@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > This thread is very interesting to me, but I'm lost (lost the > thread). Could someone please summarize - how did it get > started? is it an offshoot from the "References" thread? > (that was about formatting of strings like "121-122, 122-123"). > Who's in charge? who's volunteered to carry it forward? > Offhand, I think it would be very difficult to measure even > the above example ("121-122, 122-123"). What is measured - > precision or recall? is lookup time and ease a factor? > what text and index is being used? a real one? a made up one? > what is the size of the research population? > We want an answer to which is better: "121-122, 122-123" or > "121-123". What kind of answer do we expect to get? > Expectantly ... In usability testing in general, and testing indexes in particular, common measurements are: - Success or failure. Did the reader achieve the stated goal. - Time to completion. How long did it take? - Requests for assistance. How many times did the reader ask for help? - Number of references to the index. How many terms did the reader look for before finding the right one? - Subjective evaluation: How did the reader feel abou the overall experience? Frankly, my personal opinion is that any distinction between the numbering schemes mentioned is so subtle as to be virtually untestable by these measures. Usability tests of indexes usually deal with larger issues like "Can the reader figure out how to join adjacent cells in a spreadsheet?" (Assuming, of course, that the book being tested is about spreadsheets.) Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Jenkins Subject: Re: Off-Topic -- Holiday Tipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow!!! Some of these amounts look incredibly generous to me. I must be even cheaper than I thought. Guess I better change my ways, pronto, before Santa finalizes his list. Linda (Scrooge) Jenkins >Who Gets What for the Holidays? >=20 >Here are some suggested amounts for holiday tips. Keep in mind that these=20 >figures are approximate: The larger the city and fancier your address, the=20 >more you=E2=80=99re usually expected to tip.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:44:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Off-Topic -- Holiday Tipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wow!!! Some of these amounts look incredibly generous to me. I must be even > cheaper than I thought. Guess I better change my ways, pronto, before Santa > finalizes his list. > > Linda (Scrooge) Jenkins They look awfully generous to me, too. I suspect they refer more to urban/suburban areas. For instance, I know that babysitters in the DC area can charge as much as $10/hour, and $5 or $7 is not unusual. Down here in rural Virginia, $3/hour is more the standard. I suspect -- I *hope*! -- tips are similarly smaller! Actually, I'd be far more inclined to give something like a gift certificate to a local restaurant or a jar of homemade jam to my delivery guys. I'm not convinced money is the only or even the best medium for conveying my gratitude. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:17:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Indexing CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <003001bf3d87$9d35eee0$9a41f7a5@deborahp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I was recently approached to see if I was interested in doing an index of herbs on CD-ROM. I realized I know little about the mechanics of doing this and would like to get some information from others who have done this type of indexing. What type of information have you indexed? Images? Text? What type of software did you use for the index? How did you charge for your services? Any other relevant information on the subject would be greatly appreciated as well as articles written on the subject. I attended the short meeting on the subject at ASI meeting in Seattle but it was all a bit muddled for me then as I was just beginning my lessons in the USDA course at the time. TIA Naomi PS I must confess I haven't done a search in the archives on the subject but I don't recall much discussion on Indexing CD-ROMs in the last two years, except, perhaps, mention of how to charge for indexing services. ****************************************************************************** J. NAOMI LINZER: INDEXING SERVICE Post Office Box 1341, Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** ^Ý ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Off-Topic -- Holiday Tipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I see these lists I always wonder if they are created by the people who hope to get holiday tips - their wish list, in other words. ;-) Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Jenkins To: Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Off-Topic -- Holiday Tipping > Wow!!! Some of these amounts look incredibly generous to me. I must be even > cheaper than I thought. Guess I better change my ways, pronto, before Santa > finalizes his list. > > Linda (Scrooge) Jenkins > > > >Who Gets What for the Holidays? > >=20 > >Here are some suggested amounts for holiday tips. Keep in mind that > these=20 > >figures are approximate: The larger the city and fancier your address, > the=20 > >more you=E2=80=99re usually expected to tip.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: Off-Topic -- Holiday Tipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know, in most ways the list sounds fairly reasonable to me and represents close to what I'd think about paying anyway. These people are often not very well paid -- I pay $16 for a haircut -- and have been going to the same person for many years. I wouldn't hesitate to give a $25-$30 Christmas tip (unless I knew of something she'd really like and then it would probably cost more). My newspaper deliverer has faithfully delivered my $1.00 paper 313 times this year, so a $15-20 tip doesn't seem too much there either ($10 feels chintzy, but I;m sure that would be appreciated, too). The assistant at the town dump always helps me carry my bags and points me to special tidbits (e.g. chairs, book shelves, books etc.) that might be available (I go to the dump 1-2x/week, that's approximately 60-100 visits), another $15-20. And caretakers -- such as people who clean your house or watch your children or take care of your pets -- these people, if they're reliable and do a good job, are golden and a bonus (I like that better than tip) equivalent to one day's pay seems very reasonable. I'm talking, of course, of people whose services you use repeatedly and depend on. While I like the idea of homemade gifts like jams and jellies, I think money is preferable to an impersonal, usually cheap item such as a scarf. Often times people add up their various tips and bonuses to get themselves (or someone else they know) something really nice. They work hard, just as I do. When I can afford it, I am glad to give a little extra. Diane Brenner http://www.dianebrenner.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:25:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Landeen - Indextrous Subject: Diacriticals Dear Collective Wisdom, Thanks to your help I have found much needed diacritical markings for Arabic. Now can someone help me find diacritical markings for Swedish? You know, that little circle over the "A", (which I have aways thought of as the angstrom mark) and those two little dots, which I think is correctly called an umlat? I am also looking for a diacritical which is used in French and comes off the bottom of the letter c and makes a curve to the left. Thanks, in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:43:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Newbie question about page ranges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings. I'm working on USDA lesson 10. Space limitations prevent subentries in most cases. However, I want to indicate where illustrations and definitions occur for terms by using italic and boldface locators, respectively. Question: If I have a page range, and one of the locators within that range contains illustrations or a definition as well as text, how do I indicate that? Here's an example: desalinization, 44, 45-46, 47 where the illustration appears on p. 45 (as well as text on the topic). Would I make just the locator "45" italic? That's the only thing I can think of, but it looks strange to me. I'd greatly appreciate your opinions. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:38:50 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Diacriticals In-Reply-To: <199912062328.SAA03961@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These are in Cindex, and if you're using Windows and have installed the Character Map - that's another good place for them. The circle over the A is ALT-0197 and the c with a curve (a cedilla) is ALT-0231. As for the umlaut, it will depend on what letter you want - for example a o mit un umlaut is ALT-246. Charles -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Cynthia Landeen - Indextrous Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 3:25 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Diacriticals Dear Collective Wisdom, Thanks to your help I have found much needed diacritical markings for Arabic. Now can someone help me find diacritical markings for Swedish? You know, that little circle over the "A", (which I have aways thought of as the angstrom mark) and those two little dots, which I think is correctly called an umlat? I am also looking for a diacritical which is used in French and comes off the bottom of the letter c and makes a curve to the left. Thanks, in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:49:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "J. Naomi Linzer" wrote: > > What type of software did you use for the index? It depends on the format of the source files. If they're HTML, you can use HTML Indexer to create the index. (You can include other file types, too; but it's primarily for indexing HTML files.) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:35:56 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Newbie question about page ranges In-Reply-To: <210369A967E8D2119B390050041CD4BD34CA2D@pandora.stellcom.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Karen wrote: >I'm working on USDA lesson 10. Space limitations prevent subentries in most >cases. However, I want to indicate where illustrations and definitions occur >for terms by using italic and boldface locators, respectively. Question: If >I have a page range, and one of the locators within that range contains >illustrations or a definition as well as text, how do I indicate that? > >Here's an example: > >desalinization, 44, 45-46, 47 If I am calling out illustrations separately in the index, I add another locator in italics (using ^ to indicate italics) because an illustration is separate from the text: 44, 45-46, 47, ^45^ In cases of definitions, if the definition is on the first page of the page range, then I make that first page of the range bold (*45*-46), because a definition is about the text; but if the definition falls within the page range, I add another locator in bold. 44, *45*-46, 47 or 44, 45-47, *46* If one doesn't follow this schema then the distinctions for illustrations and definitions aren't made consistently, and, imo, lose value. --Victoria vbaker@asis.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:35:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <384C598F.58229B32@brown-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >It depends on the format of the source files. If they're HTML, you can >use HTML Indexer to create the index. (You can include other file types, >too; but it's primarily for indexing HTML files.) > >--David Hi All: What happens if the source files are not in HTML format? Have others used Cindex or other programs for indexing CD-ROMs? Willa (looking forward to playing contra dance music tomorrow nite for several hours.....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:02:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to... > > > It depends on the format of the source files. If they're HTML, you can > > use HTML Indexer to create the index. (You can include other file types, > > too; but it's primarily for indexing HTML files.) Willa MacAllen wrote: > > What happens if the source files are not in HTML format? First, an apology: I meant to send that message only to the person who asked the question. As for *this* question, what happens with non-HTML files is that HTML Indexer cannot store your index entries in the source files (it stores them in a separate project file, instead). The result is that you have to maintain the paths to those non-HTML files by hand. (With HTML files, of course, HTML Indexer takes care of all that for you.) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 05:33:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@AOL.COM Subject: Windows 98 & DOS applications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/1999 12:47:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sharon.Wright@LEXIS-NEXIS.COM writes: << I can tell you that Windows 98 REALLY doesn't like DOS-- DOS programs don't run well at all on it. >> A properly configured Windows 98 system (and also 95) will indeed run a well-written MS-DOS application without problem, supporting even better performance than the application offered on a DOS-only or Windows 3.x system. Unfortunately, it _IS_ true to say that few organizations selling & installing computers know how to properly configure Windows 98 and even more true to say that not all MS-DOS applications are/were written in such a way as to be able to perform on a 32-bit platform. It is also true to say that few printers (and most other peripherals) sold today come with drivers & software which support MS-DOS applications. So ... if you are buying new software and want the speed & control of an MS-DOS application, make sure there'll be _AFFORDABLE_ forward compatibility for the day when MS-DOS applications do not run under the available operating system or on the available hardware. (Or buy a product that offers DOS-like control but has been designed for the 32-bit world.) Gale Rhoades Macrex Support Office, North America voice: 650-756-0821 fax: 650-292-2302 Wise Bytes P. O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 94015 macrex@aol.com www.macrex.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:10:45 +0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Diacriticals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The diacritic you're looking for is called (for Swedish, anyway) a left hook. If you have web access you can find a lot of downloadable fonts. I like one called "Dr. Berlin's Foreign Font Archive" at http://hopi.dtcc.edu/~berlin/fonts.htm. Try looking under "Unicode Multilingual" and you can find a good selection of alphabets with diacritics. I think that the Courier and Times New Roman are good ones. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are many different ways of indexing cd-roms. The cd-rom is only the physical medium. The type of indexing and software required depends on the type and arrangement of the material that is stored on the cd-rom. For example, is it encyclopedic, is it textual, graphic or both, is it amenable to database or back-of-the book type of retrieval, is it in html? Is the information linked internally through hyperlinks and cross-references? Ideally the indexing decisions should be made at the design stage in conjunction with the rest of the design of the text, but this is not always done, so in that case, the first thing to do is to look at how the project is designed and to identify how the information will be used/retrieved. Design the type of indexing that is appropriate and choose how the files should be prepared in conjunction with what the programmers require. Christine Jacobs **************************************************************************** ******* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue QC Canada H9X 3L9 (514) 457-6610, loc 470; fax: (514) 457-4730 **************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:13:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19991207141934.0072ff10@mail.johnabbott.qc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:19 AM 12/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >There are many different ways of indexing cd-roms. The cd-rom is only the >physical medium. The type of indexing and software required depends on the >type and arrangement of the material that is stored on the cd-rom. Hi All: I think this is the kind of information that Naomi and I were looking for. The two projects that I've done have involved images on CD-ROMs, but I haven't indexed anything with text. It would be great to have others describe how they've approached indexing of CD-ROMs that included enclopedias, text files, etc. Thanks. Willa (looking forward to the usual first Tuesday slow jam/contra dance...) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:58:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Landeen - Indextrous Subject: Diacriticals Charles, What a blessing you are. In all my looking for the most obscure diacriticals, I forgot completely that the more common ones are found right here in Windows. Thanks again (perhaps I should be tipping you?) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:39:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Diacriticals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roberta, I tried to bring up the Dr. Berlin's font site and got an error message. Can you check/repost the URL. This is the time of year for journal indexes, and the attendant author indexes -- those diacriticals are needed more than any other time of year! Thanks. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:18:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19991207141934.0072ff10@mail.johnabbott.qc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Christine has hit it right on the head. A CD-ROM is only a form of storage. What you really need to be concerned with is: How will the user find the index? What will the interface of the index look like to the user? How wide of a display do they have? How long? How many lines of index actually show? How will the data or documents be linked to the index? What can you use to prepare the index so that the programmers can link your work to the interface and the documents? All of these questions must be answered before you even start. You must work with the people preparing the CD-ROM to answer them. ANYTHING can be put on a CD-ROM in any file format in any way. So they need to clear their parameters for their own material with you up front. The index interface the user will see must be developed first -- will you have one level, two, three? Can you have links to just one item for each entry, or is there a way to have an entry leap to multiple items? Will cross references be allowed? Will they work interactively or will they be dead? How does the user get back to the index after a wrong hit? Are there sort controls? Where do the entries live? Do you have to put codes in the documents or will your index be a standalone file? Usually, working with online or cd-rom based material requires a lot of up-front clarification. Once you get things somewhat settled, you must test your methods before you do the whole index. Prepare a test run of a few documents, using every kind of index entry you think you will need. Have them build it. See if it works like you think. Then and only then go forth and index the entire thing. Jan Wright At 09:19 AM 12/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >There are many different ways of indexing cd-roms. The cd-rom is only the >physical medium. The type of indexing and software required depends on the >type and arrangement of the material that is stored on the cd-rom. For >example, is it encyclopedic, is it textual, graphic or both, is it amenable >to database or back-of-the book type of retrieval, is it in html? Is the >information linked internally through hyperlinks and cross-references? >Ideally the indexing decisions should be made at the design stage in >conjunction with the rest of the design of the text, but this is not always >done, so in that case, the first thing to do is to look at how the project >is designed and to identify how the information will be used/retrieved. >Design the type of indexing that is appropriate and choose how the files >should be prepared in conjunction with what the programmers require. > >Christine Jacobs > > > > >**************************************************************************** >******* >Christine Jacobs >cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca > >Co-Chair >Information and Library Technologies Dept. >John Abbott College >P.O. Box 2000 >Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue QC Canada H9X 3L9 >(514) 457-6610, loc 470; fax: (514) 457-4730 >**************************************************************************** >******* =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:53:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"J. Naomi Linzer" wrote: >> >> What type of software did you use for the index? David wrote: >It depends on the format of the source files. If they're HTML, you can >use HTML Indexer to create the index. (You can include other file types, >too; but it's primarily for indexing HTML files.) > David In your experience are CD-ROMs usually formatted as an HTML document? I seem to starting from square minus one and am looking to get a handle on the basics one needs to know--or the variables one might encounter-- to prepare an index for information on CD-ROM. If the article hasn't been written yet, I'll be glad to collect information and write it! Naomi ****************************************************************************** J. NAOMI LINZER: INDEXING SERVICE Post Office Box 1341, Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** ^Ý ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:13:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Indexing CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <199912071653.IAA14306@neti.saber.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can check out the reprint of my article "How to index online" at http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw/client.htm#articles& It covers the same kinds of things you need to know to index for a CD-ROM. It's available from my web site as a PDF file. Jan At 08:53 AM 12/7/99 -0800, you wrote: >>"J. Naomi Linzer" wrote: >>> >>> What type of software did you use for the index? > >David wrote: >>It depends on the format of the source files. If they're HTML, you can >>use HTML Indexer to create the index. (You can include other file types, >>too; but it's primarily for indexing HTML files.) >> > >David > >In your experience are CD-ROMs usually formatted as an HTML document? > >I seem to starting from square minus one and am looking to get a handle on >the basics one needs to know--or the variables one might encounter-- to >prepare an index for information on CD-ROM. > >If the article hasn't been written yet, I'll be glad to collect information >and write it! > >Naomi > >***************************************************************************= *** > J. NAOMI LINZER: INDEXING SERVICE > Post Office Box 1341, Redway, CA 95560-1341 > Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 > jnlinzer@saber.net >***************************************************************************= *** >http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers website. >***************************************************************************= * >** =9D =3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+= =3D+=3D+=3D+=3D Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+=3D+= =3D+=3D+=3D+=3D ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:35:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Windows 98 & DOS applications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 7 Dec 1999 05:33:36 EST Macrex@AOL.COM writes: > In a message dated 12/1/1999 12:47:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Sharon.Wright@LEXIS-NEXIS.COM writes: > > << I can tell you that Windows 98 REALLY doesn't like DOS-- DOS programs > don't run well at all on it. >> > Gail Rhoades claims: > A properly configured Windows 98 system (and also 95) will indeed run a > well-written MS-DOS application without problem, supporting even better > performance than the application offered on a DOS-only or Windows 3.x system. > > Unfortunately, it _IS_ true to say that few organizations selling & > installing computers know how to properly configure Windows 98 and even more > true to say that not all MS-DOS applications are/were written in such a way > as to be able to perform on a 32-bit platform. It is also true to say that > few printers (and most other peripherals) sold today come with drivers & > software which support MS-DOS applications. I'm an old hand at DOS. I've been running MS-DOS and PC-DOS since version 1.1 and I've been working with computers for over 40 years, since 1958. It has been my experience that my vintage DOS programs, including my indexing software, do not run well under Windows 95 and I have no reason to expect them to run under Windows 98. There is no way that a programer working in the 1980s could have anticipated the requirements of a 1990s operating system. I've been hearing that a "well written" or "well behaved" DOS program will run under Windows. Well, my experience is that it is a hit or miss proposition. For example, as far as I can tell, Windows 95 will not support any RAM disk software. Many of my old utilities, such as an old version of the Norton Utilities, will not run under Windows or they generate error messages. My indexing program will run only in an enfeebled way, and much slower than it ran on my old 80286-based computer. Also, why does Rhoades say that "few organizations selling & installing computers know how to properly configure Windows 98"? Why should it be so hard to install an operating system on a microcomputer? Frankly, I wish I could live totally without Windows, but thanks to Microsoft's monopoly, I'm stuck with it. However, I have a dual-boot system, so when I work, I just boot up in PC-DOS and ignore Windows. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:54:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Windows 98 & DOS applications In-Reply-To: <19991207.145113.-72071.1.elinzer@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elliot wrote: > I'm an old hand at DOS. I've been running MS-DOS and PC-DOS since >version 1.1 and I've been working with computers for over 40 years, since >1958. It has been my experience that my vintage DOS programs, including >my indexing software, do not run well under Windows 95 and I have no >reason to expect them to run under Windows 98. My DOS indexing software (Macrex) has been running faster and faster as I moved from DOS 3.3 to Windows 95 to 98. But, this is supported software. I also have a highly skilled tech person. > Also, why does Rhoades say that "few organizations selling & installing >computers know how to properly configure Windows 98"? Why should it be >so hard to install an operating system on a microcomputer? Almost anyone can install an operating system, but the default settings are not necessarily the best choices for a given system/use. True knowledge of all the parameters and how they interact with each other is what separates, in my opinion, a tech person from a knowledgeable computer user, and is what makes computer techs so valuable. And worth paying to get set up correctly. I've been working with computers for 25 years, starting with mainframes, and knew machine languages for quite a few of them. That still doesn't mean I knew or know how to set up the computer in the first place to get the highest function for my purposes. That, in my experience, is a separate area of study, one that I know I haven't made. --Victoria vbaker@asis.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:45:02 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Windows 98 & DOS applications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I have no computer expertise to speak of I do have to agree with Victoria. I am running Macrex, a DOS program, using the Second Version of Windows 98 and am delighted with how Macrex runs on it. Macrex is faster than ever and works beautifully for me. And, as Victoria mentioned, it helps to have an expert technical support person like Gale Rhodes (who has patience beyond belief with nontechies like myself!). Best, Sylvia Coates ----- Original Message ----- From: Victoria Baker To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Windows 98 & DOS applications > Elliot wrote: > > I'm an old hand at DOS. I've been running MS-DOS and PC-DOS since > >version 1.1 and I've been working with computers for over 40 years, since > >1958. It has been my experience that my vintage DOS programs, including > >my indexing software, do not run well under Windows 95 and I have no > >reason to expect them to run under Windows 98. > > My DOS indexing software (Macrex) has been running faster and faster as I > moved from DOS 3.3 to Windows 95 to 98. But, this is supported software. I > also have a highly skilled tech person. > > > --Victoria > > > vbaker@asis.com >