Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9904C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:35:03 EDT Reply-To: ROBJRICH@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Doh! Dear Blythe Spirit - Don't worry! We all hit the "SEND" button and then regret it at leisure! Or, as Omar once said: "The moving finger presses SEND. And having press'd moves on. Nor all your piety nor wit Can lure your ISP to cancel half a line, Nor all your tears wash out a word it it." I often have breakfasted on the egg on my face! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:00:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Cindex for Mac question In-Reply-To: <199904150405.XAA13995@b.mx.execpc.com> >I just sent my first index off to the publisher. It was written in >Cindex for Mac, saved as RTF with Windows/DOS conventions, and opened >in MSWord. The publishers have a macro they run on all the indexes. >When they run it on mine, the whole index comes up as Index 1 (What >they call main entries). I had set the fields as Index 1, Index 2, >and Page. What am I missing here? > Blythe, since you work on a Mac (me, too), I take it you weren't able to open this Windows version of the index once you'd saved it to that format? You might try saving from Cindex to MSWord for Mac, so you can see what styles are applied to the main headings and subs. When I do nothing at all to the fields in Cindex, save as rtf-Word-for-Mac, the styles for main and subs come up as "Main" and "Sub 1" respectively (in Word 5.1a), which matches the field names in Cindex. The problem may indeed be the client's macro, but as a troubleshooting procedure, I would check the Word doc at your end, too. Good luck. FWIW, questions about index formats and delivery problems are definitely of interest to many of us on this list. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: another indexing market? In-Reply-To: <199904150405.XAA13995@b.mx.execpc.com> >I have noticed that court reporter services often list "keyword indexing" of >court transcripts and depositions among their services. > >Does any know about this type of indexing? > >Is it a potential indexing market for a freelance indexer? > >How are rates usually established? per page? per hour? What might the range >be for either? > >Am I correct in thinking that knowledge of the law is not as important as the >ability to understand different subjects? > >Thanks in advance to all who can offer information. > >M. Edwards I should think it would be a potential market. Last year I met a few lawyers at a business luncheon. When they found out what I do, they mentioned how great it would be to have depositions indexed. Currently, their secretaries do it. I passed out my business cards, of course, but haven't really followed up; I'd love to hear whether other indexers out there are doing this. If I were doing it, I'd charge by the hour, because it would be pretty difficult to know beforehand how much work each page of a deposition or transcript would require. My guess is that knowledge of the law wouldn't be essential. You'd be indexing things like events, names, possibly dates, evidence, etc. Law might enter into it if the lawyers cite laws as precedent, but then the title of the law would be in the transcript, I suppose. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 05:10:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: another indexing market? In-Reply-To: <199904150546.BAA51308@mail.acm.org> Just a quick note. There are several programs out there that have been written specifically for lawyers which index the documents they produced. My guess is the program basically pull out the words and attach a page number to it. I know West Law, a legal database vendor has written some pretty extensive AI programs to do this type of analysis. The words are then put in a database for a retrieval. This type of automatic indexing is not a good a human intervention but much of what they are looking for are words so it probably does work for them. In very complex cases with thousands of pages, this type of computer work is very useful as it won't miss the word where a human indexer just might because of the large number of documents involved. Small law firms could probably use the help of a professional indexer. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:39:01 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Re: another indexing market? From Christine Headley Melanie Edwards wrote >I have noticed that court reporter services often list "keyword indexing" of >court transcripts and depositions among their services. > >Does any know about this type of indexing? Funnily enough, I got a phone call yesterday from the publisher of a specialist legal journal, whose editor was not happy with the index in the established style. Would I please ginger it up. Three little volumes arrived this morning, and I discovered that the index is in the form of the headnotes to the cases, e.g. SOLICITOR - negligence - fouling up a case ... [name of case] [where it was heard] page ref. I have indexed one case and e-mailed it back to the publisher's editor, to find out whether my idea coincides with hers and the journal editor's. At the moment the page reference is only to the first of the case. However, I would not be in the least surprised if she says she would like the page refs more detailed, which would mean me reading the law lords' judgments (which I don't want to do unless she wants me to do it, as it will add considerably to the time). This firm, English, will pay by the hour, but then they always do. I've done a number of 'real' law books for them as well. >Am I correct in thinking that knowledge of the law is not as important as the >ability to understand different subjects? I have a third of a degree in law and have been indexing law books for nearly ten years. Having used law books - twenty years ago I would have been exempt from solicitors' Part Ones in contract, tort and crime, if I had wished to go in that direction - and seriously studied the English legal system (passed the exam but it didn't create an exemption) I feel able to index law books. It's not a subject I would wish to approach from a standing start. I'm not a court reporter, and I have noticed how court reports in the newspapers here are written by barristers. I don't think it's as easy as it looks! Christine Headley Copyeditor and Indexer Stroud, Glos ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:08:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ellen Brink Organization: uakron.edu Subject: Re: Cindex for Mac question > > > The publishers have a macro they run on all the indexes. > > Carol Roberts wrote: > FWIW, questions about index formats and delivery problems are definitely of > interest to many of us on this list. Indeed. Here's another: what is this macro? I don't think it's the same macro I'm thinking of. Thanks, Ellen Brink bellen1@uakron.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:47:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andrea Anesi Subject: Emailing indexes Good Morning Everyone! I'm a first-time "poster" but have been lurking for awhile. After seeing all the good advice that comes from the group I thought I'd ask a question of my own. I've tried to email completed indexes (actually just test indexes not "real" ones) and have had a problem. A test index was sent as an email file attachment and the person (book producer) on the receiving end got it as part of the email message (in the body of the text), not as an attached file. I'm using Cindex on a Mac and the index was saved with Quark Xpress tags. I tried emailing a test index to myself and had the same result. Has anyone ever experienced this? Feel free to email me personally or post to the list if you think it would be of interest to others. Thank you! :-) Andrea Anesi aanesi@ptdprolog.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:35:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" Subject: Re: this is a test, do not change your screen, this is only a test >>Anyone there? > >Nope. No one here. > >M. J. Barczak > >going nuts in > >Washington, D.C. > Eerie. . . .Is this what Y2K will be like for some who haven't taken precautions? Actually, in Northern Virginia yesterday a construction worker cut a very important wire and all of No. Va. and even to Central Virginia were CUT OFF. It was strange. Back to normal(?) this morning, though. Ardith ABBA Index Svcs. King George, VA (East of Fredericksburg) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:31:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Emailing indexes In-Reply-To: <199904150949.rhbrjr.k7r.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> What email client are you using? If you are using Outlook or Express, this often happens. Outlook at least will have a setting deep in its preferences that you need to go check, some place where you can check how you want to send files, whether as attachments or "embedded." It's the embedded ones that cause this problem. You aren't alone - I receive files this same way, and keep a version of Outlook on my machine to retrieve them when Eudora can't. Go looking in your preferences first, and see if anything is set in there. That's the first step. Jan Wright At 09:47 AM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >Good Morning Everyone! >I'm a first-time "poster" but have been lurking for awhile. After >seeing all the good advice that comes from the group I thought I'd ask a >question of my own. I've tried to email completed indexes (actually >just test indexes not "real" ones) and have had a problem. A test index >was sent as an email file attachment and the person (book producer) on >the receiving end got it as part of the email message (in the body of >the text), not as an attached file. I'm using Cindex on a Mac and the >index was saved with Quark Xpress tags. I tried emailing a test index >to myself and had the same result. Has anyone ever experienced this? >Feel free to email me personally or post to the list if you think it >would be of interest to others. Thank you! :-) >Andrea Anesi >aanesi@ptdprolog.net =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:58:00 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hussein EL dareer Organization: Home Subject: Re: test yes ----- Original Message ----- From: Pam Rider To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 09:53 =E3 Subject: test > Anyone there? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Emailing indexes On 4/15/1999 8:47 AM Andrea Anesi wrote (in part): >I'm a first-time "poster" but have been lurking for awhile. After >seeing all the good advice that comes from the group I thought I'd ask a >question of my own. I've tried to email completed indexes (actually >just test indexes not "real" ones) and have had a problem. A test index >was sent as an email file attachment and the person (book producer) on >the receiving end got it as part of the email message (in the body of >the text), not as an attached file. I'm using Cindex on a Mac and the >index was saved with Quark Xpress tags. I tried emailing a test index >to myself and had the same result. Has anyone ever experienced this? >Feel free to email me personally or post to the list if you think it >would be of interest to others. Thank you! :-) What e-mail program are you using? If it's Claris e-mailer, let me know and we'll compare settings. Or perhaps someone else on the list can compare settings on Eudora, Outlook Express, etc. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www.i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:15:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Emailing indexes I'm very interested in the responses to this thread as I just switched from Eudora to Outlook Express, so I hope you won't take it off-list. Not sure I'm happy with OE yet but Eudora was acting out with me. I gave it a time out. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Freelance indexing and copyediting racric@together.net http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:26:34 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Emailing indexes Dear Andrea, You may need to compress the file using a program like Winzip. Winzip is a shareware program available on the Net. You can purchase (for a very small fee) and download a copy of Winzip from the Internet. I'm sorry that I don't have the URL handy but you should be able to do a search and find it pretty easily. I'll add here that I am emailing about 95% of my indexes to clients these days. And, I have only run into a couple of clients for which I absolutely have to use Winzip to compress my file. Of course, there is that school of thought that says we should all be sending compressed files all of the time, but then I'm as lazy as the other guy :-). Try it out and see if that solves your problem. Best, Sylvia Coates Andrea Anesi wrote: > Good Morning Everyone! > I'm a first-time "poster" but have been lurking for awhile. After > seeing all the good advice that comes from the group I thought I'd ask a > question of my own. I've tried to email completed indexes (actually > just test indexes not "real" ones) and have had a problem. A test index > was sent as an email file attachment and the person (book producer) on > the receiving end got it as part of the email message (in the body of > the text), not as an attached file. I'm using Cindex on a Mac and the > index was saved with Quark Xpress tags. I tried emailing a test index > to myself and had the same result. Has anyone ever experienced this? > Feel free to email me personally or post to the list if you think it > would be of interest to others. Thank you! :-) > Andrea Anesi > aanesi@ptdprolog.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:30:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Emailing indexes Regarding Sylvia's advice about WinZip -- it can be found, surprisingly enough, at http://www.winzip.com John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:48:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Emailing indexes > >What was the trouble with Eudora? Which version? > > Eudora Lite, it will send but not receive my mail. Annoying. Haven't had time to work on it. I just got a call from my contact, the attached file I send via Outlook Express was corrupt. I tried again, nothing in it. More annoying. Will work on it today. Rae ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:33:23 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Emailing indexes Thank you John, I knew if had to be something simple! Seriously, I had the same problem (partial file showing up inside the message etc.) and my software engineer son informed me (his techno-dummy mother) that--and this is in layman terms: your Web browser program is trying to "help" you by reading the file and the result is what you see (partial files, corrupted files, files inside the email message). WinZip fixed the problem completely. It compresses your file and somehow that protects it from any of the "help." I'm sure that even now those of you who are technically savvy are cringing at this explanation :-), all I know (and care) is that it works! Best, Sylvia Coates John R. Sullivan wrote: > Regarding Sylvia's advice about WinZip -- it can be found, surprisingly > enough, at http://www.winzip.com > > John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:31:33 EDT Reply-To: KArrigoni2@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KArrigoni2@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cindex for Mac question Hi Blythe, I use a Mac too and occasionally have Mac/PC file translation problems. Here's something else you might try: 1. From Cindex, save your file as an RTF file. 2. Open this RTF file from Word. 3. Check the style names of the entries (and change them to match the macro if necessary). 4. Save the file again as a Word file. If you have Word 6 or Word 98 for the Mac, the resulting file should be able to be opened from a PC with no problems. If you have Word 5.1, this might not work--in which case, MacLinkPlus might help you out (MacLinkPlus is an application that translates back and forth between all kinds of file formats--including PC formats. It's one of my "must-have" applications!) Good luck and congratulations on completing your first index! Karin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:01:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andrea Anesi Subject: Emailing indexes again Hi everyone! Wow! Thanks for all the fast responses on emailing indexes. I must apologize. I did forget to mention that I'm using Netscape email and I have tried emailing plain Cindex files (no conversion or tags) to myself, which worked fine. I've wondered if the problem has something to do with the Quark Xpress tags (I do not have Quark, but the book producer does). I'm going to look into all of your suggestions - and thanks again!! Andrea Anesi aanesi@ptdprolog.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: HTML Codes for Web Index Dear Collective Wisdom: I am gathering information for a book-style index that will be published on a Web site. This index will just be like a paper index, for reference only, with no links to the text that was indexed. For the one book-style Web index I wrote, I used the "glossary" codes, i.e., the
and
codes. That works fine for indexes with only a main head and one level of subheading. I'm wondering what HTML codes to use if you have entries with more than one level of subheading: Main heading subheading sub-subheading Any suggestions? Thanks, Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:01:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: rates horror and other stuff In-Reply-To: <3715B262.6B867867@slip.net> First let say I got Eudora going again. I don't know what I did to fix it. Some setting was wrong but I don't know which. Next, let me say that never again will I overload myself like I just did this past month. I just finished the 5th index plus one copyedit since March 18. I just heard back that on the copyedit I missed a lot and introduced two errors. I am mortified but it's a good lesson. He said not to obsess about it as all my other work for them has be fine. He's even still going to pay me though I asked him to withdraw my invoice. It embarasses me to confess this but I believe any lesson learned is a valuable one. I'm meanwhile obsessing that I am a horrid copyeditor and probably a horrid indexer too and not only that, I can't do anything right. However, this same publisher offered me an index (my first for them but not my first for this guy as I've worked with him at another pub house). He says their indexing rate is $2 page and they have no trouble finding indexers. I said sorry but I wouldn't index for less than $3/page. He's talking to his boss as he can't find anyone else to do this index as it's hard core porn. (I'll more or less work on anything that doesn't have detailed cruelty to animals or children unless it's about treating those who do it, and even then only if it's not detailingly described.) I still get jobs from a company that pays 50 cents an entry and really wants you to limit to 3 entries per page, but I never do. I usually make about $3 per page for them. I can't believe we're still playing this rates game. How can anyone afford to work for that rate? It's discouraging. I'm discouraged. I'm going to Walmart. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:38:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: another indexing market? In-Reply-To: <199904150546.WAA11732@mx1.eskimo.com> --=====================_28973266==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Abstracting depositions is different from keyword indexing. I do consider this to be a viable market and, in fact, is the direction in which I intend to point my indexing career. While a familiarity with broad legal concepts and the legal process in general would be helpful, I don't think a lack of this knowledge would be a total disqualification. IMHO, indexers are a cut above the crowd and could pick up most of what they need to know rather quickly. In depth speciality knowledge should be quite marketable and I'm interested in hearing how others on the list would approach this market. One particular problem with attorneys is their tendency to not pay in a "timely manner." I'd like to hear other folks' thoughts on creative ways to solve this little dilemma. Jeri Lee >I should think it would be a potential market. Last year I met a few >lawyers at a business luncheon. When they found out what I do, they >mentioned how great it would be to have depositions indexed. Currently, >their secretaries do it. I passed out my business cards, of course, but >haven't really followed up; I'd love to hear whether other indexers out >there are doing this. > >If I were doing it, I'd charge by the hour, because it would be pretty >difficult to know beforehand how much work each page of a deposition or >transcript would require. > >My guess is that knowledge of the law wouldn't be essential. You'd be >indexing things like events, names, possibly dates, evidence, etc. Law >might enter into it if the lawyers cite laws as precedent, but then the >title of the law would be in the transcript, I suppose. > >Cheers, > > >Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My >indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. >Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer >new Web address to come > --=====================_28973266==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Abstracting depositions is different from keyword indexing. 

I do consider this to be a viable market and, in fact, is the direction in which I intend to point my indexing career.  

While a familiarity with broad legal concepts and the legal process in general would be helpful,  I don't think a lack of this knowledge would be a total disqualification.  IMHO, indexers are a cut above the crowd and could pick up most of what they need to know rather quickly. 

In depth speciality knowledge should be quite marketable and I'm interested in hearing how others on the list would approach this market.  

One particular problem with attorneys is their tendency to not pay in a "timely manner."   I'd like to hear other folks' thoughts on creative ways to solve this little dilemma. 

Jeri Lee

>I should think it would be a potential market. Last year I met a few
>lawyers at a business luncheon. When they found out what I do, they
>mentioned how great it would be to have depositions indexed. Currently,
>their secretaries do it. I passed out my business cards, of course, but
>haven't really followed up; I'd love to hear whether other indexers out
>there are doing this.
>
>If I were doing it, I'd charge by the hour, because it would be pretty
>difficult to know beforehand how much work each page of a deposition or
>transcript would require.
>
>My guess is that knowledge of the law wouldn't be essential. You'd be
>indexing things like events, names, possibly dates, evidence, etc. Law
>might enter into it if the lawyers cite laws as precedent, but then the
>title of the law would be in the transcript, I suppose.
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor  | I'm not into working out. My
>indexer@execpc.com         &nbs p;            | philosophy: No pain, no pain.
>Milwaukee, WI                            |              -- Carol Leifer
>new Web address to come
>

--=====================_28973266==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:30:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: HTML Codes for Web Index Linda Fetters wrote: > > I am gathering information for a book-style index that will be > published on a Web site. This index will just be like a paper index, > for reference only, with no links to the text that was indexed. > > For the one book-style Web index I wrote, I used the "glossary" codes, > i.e., the
and
codes. That works fine for indexes with only a > main head and one level of subheading. > > I'm wondering what HTML codes to use if you have entries with more > than one level of subheading: > > Main heading > subheading > sub-subheading Because of the lack of tag support for what you're trying to do, and because of the wildly different appearance of list tags in different browsers, we decided on a simpler solution: Each level of indentation gets 5 nonbreaking spaces ( ) Each heading or entry (regardless of level) ends with a
tag This gives you a nicely formatted index with predictable line spacing (although you do have to watch out for *extremely* long lines). But I just have to ask a larger question: Why create an index for a web site and *not* have the entries be links to the indexed files? If it's because it's too hard to keep track of all the URLs, and you can't see all your entries as you work, then I strongly suggest you look at our product, HTML Indexer, at the URL below. Let me know if you have any questions. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:29:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: another indexing market? Lawyers? Not pay on time? Perish the thought! :-) Of course I'm going to chime in here-- wouldn't you all be disappointed if I didn't? Don't answer that! As for abstracting transcripts, let me briefly say that yes, it is something that a trained indexer could do and do well, and no, you do not need legal training to do it. Transcripts rarely involve complicated legal concepts. If you think about what they are-- a record of questions asked of a witness and the witness answers-- you can see that indexing them should not require legal knowledge. You should index what is there and what was said, not what you think it means. As for not paying on time, a lot of that has to do with the way lawyers get paid (in America, anyway, and in most of the common-law countries, I think). A lawyer cannot accept payment until their services have been rendered. Retainers, for instance, must be deposited into a trust account and the money can be transferred to the business account only when the attorney has documentation showing that he or she has earned it (hence billable hour records). If (in America) an attorney is working on contingency (taking a percentage of what he or she wins for their client), he cannot pay himself or anyone else until the case is settled (or won) and he gets the settlement funds. In complex civil litigation, this could take months or even years. Otherwise, he has to pay third parties (like court reporters or indexers) out of his own pocket and wait until he gets the money from his client for reimbursement. Some small law firms and sole practitioners may not have the cash flow to accomplish this. Court reporters would be a good source to find out how they handle these situations. I believe that a lot of them bill the firm or attorney directly and do not agree to wait for settlement. Some withhold sending the final transcripts until they receive payment and others maintain "blacklists" of attorneys who haven't paid-- they refuse to do any more work for them until the account is settled. Good luck! -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:47:27 EDT Reply-To: Pmauer@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Indexer needed for computer-related manual - RUSH Hi all, I have information about a job that I cannot do myself, so this is a plea for help on behalf of the client. Tim Altom needs an indexer to write an index for a computer-related reference manual. It's 800 pages long and he needs it done by April 30th. So if someone is available to help with this job, please contact Tim directly; do not reply to me. Tim Altom (317) 562-9298 or taltom@simplywritten.com Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 http://www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG http://members.aol.com/Pmauer <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:59:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blythe Woolston Subject: Macros: was Cindex for Mac question The macro in question was written in-house to apply styles/tags to documents before they were given to the desktop publishers in charge of laying out the copy in the page design. In this case, the documents come in as Word files and are then imported into Frame. Since the DTP work on Macs too, it should be peaches to get a file to them that they can work with, but no. . . Unfortunately, the macro was written several years ago. Aside from other burdens, it hasn't worked right since they updated Word, not once but twice. It turns out that my files aren't the only indexes that have been negatively affected. I suspect that part of the problem is that the index files coming in to them now are often more robust; they may not need any help to be imported with type styles, characters, and formatting intact. Blythe Woolston picapica@pacbell.net Ellen Brink wrote: > > > > > > The publishers have a macro they run on all the indexes.> > > > > Carol Roberts wrote: > > > FWIW, questions about index formats and delivery problems are definitely of > > interest to many of us on this list. > > Indeed. Here's another: what is this macro? I don't think it's the > same macro I'm thinking of. > > Thanks, > > Ellen Brink > bellen1@uakron.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:19:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith W. Kip" Subject: Iranian question Can anyone help me understand why the Ayatollah Khomeini dies but seems t= o still be active in Iran in the book I'm indexing on Islam. I seem to remember that there is a reason for this (a name change by someone else?)= but my brain is so fried by this book (which I really don't have enough time to do) that I just can't remember my recent history. I'm hoping not to have to query the author I as I would rather remain anonymous on this one. Thanks, Judy Kip ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff In-Reply-To: <199904151931.PAA04057@mx04.erols.com> >I still get jobs from a company that pays 50 cents an entry and really >wants you to limit to 3 entries per page, but I never do. I usually make >about $3 per page for them. When rates are set by the entry, what counts as an entry? Each page locator, even if it's clumped with several other page locators after a heading or subheading? Or only each heading or subheading? I think I worked a long time ago for someplace that paid by the number of entries, but I can't remember how it worked. Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:34:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Iranian question Unless the book is ten years out of date, I think they may have the spelling or wording incorrect. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini was the ruler of Iran from 1979 to 1989, when he died. He was succeeded by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who is no longer the president of Iran but is still considered the spiritual leader. -- Sharon W. x7255 Rm. 223 Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Judith W. Kip [SMTP:JudithKip@COMPUSERVE.COM] > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 5:19 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Iranian question > > Can anyone help me understand why the Ayatollah Khomeini dies but seems t= > o > still be active in Iran in the book I'm indexing on Islam. I seem to > remember that there is a reason for this (a name change by someone else?)= > > but my brain is so fried by this book (which I really don't have enough > time to do) that I just can't remember my recent history. > > I'm hoping not to have to query the author I as I would rather remain > anonymous on this one. > > > Thanks, Judy Kip ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:48:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Hunziker Subject: Re: Iranian question Judy, I'm no expert, so I can offer only this: Khomeini is still dead, but the name of another ayatollah who rose to prominence after his death sounds a lot like his (KAHmeini not KOHmeini). Also, I have some recollection that Khomeini had a son who followed in his footsteps. He may have been a player for awhile after his father's death. Or, perhaps, Khomeini is the Persian counterpart of Smith. /Susan Judith W. Kip wrote: > Can anyone help me understand why the Ayatollah Khomeini dies but > seems t= > o > still be active in Iran in the book I'm indexing on Islam. I seem to > remember that there is a reason for this (a name change by someone > else?)= > > but my brain is so fried by this book (which I really don't have > enough > time to do) that I just can't remember my recent history. > > I'm hoping not to have to query the author I as I would rather remain > > anonymous on this one. > > Thanks, Judy Kip ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:04:40 -0500 Reply-To: jalnd@earthlink.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julia Land Organization: JLTW Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff Rachel said: > He's > talking to his boss as he can't find anyone else to do this index as it's > hard core porn. I admit to a very limited exposure both to this list and to hard core porn, but I never knew that porography was indexed. Or am I missing something here? Julia Land jalnd@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Johnna VanHoose Dinse Subject: Re: Iranian question OK, how many people (over 30something) suddenly recalled Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live Weekend Update saying "Generalissimo Franscisco Franco is still dead." Johnna VanHoose Dinse -----Original Message----- From: Susan Hunziker To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Iranian question >Judy, > >I'm no expert, so I can offer only this: Khomeini is still dead, but >the name of another ayatollah who rose to prominence after his death >sounds a lot like his (KAHmeini not KOHmeini). Also, I have some >recollection that Khomeini had a son who followed in his footsteps. He >may have been a player for awhile after his father's death. > >Or, perhaps, Khomeini is the Persian counterpart of Smith. > >/Susan > >Judith W. Kip wrote: > >> Can anyone help me understand why the Ayatollah Khomeini dies but >> seems t= >> o >> still be active in Iran in the book I'm indexing on Islam. I seem to >> remember that there is a reason for this (a name change by someone >> else?)= >> >> but my brain is so fried by this book (which I really don't have >> enough >> time to do) that I just can't remember my recent history. >> >> I'm hoping not to have to query the author I as I would rather remain >> >> anonymous on this one. >> >> Thanks, Judy Kip > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:25:14 -0400 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: HTML Codes for Web Index This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01BE876D.4E560D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: David M. Brown > Each level of indentation gets 5 nonbreaking spaces (&nabs;) > Each heading or entry (regardless of level) ends with a
tag I agree with this solution completely. It's unfortunate that it's a complete kludge, but then HTML was never designed for indexing. Heck, it wasn't designed for much at all. > Why create an index for a web site and *not* have the entries be > links to the indexed files? I think the reasoning behind this is that the index is a book index, not an index for a web site, that is being ported to the web. O'Reilly & Associates moves its back-of-the-book indexes to the web, with the page numbers intact, as a form of book advertising. (Go to www.oreilly.com/catalog, choose a book, and follow the link named "Index" in the left column.) These indexes are not intended to be used, but rather to be browsed only. O'Reilly's approach is to present these books honestly, and to allow people to look at an index before buying to emulate the process customers follow when looking through bookstore books. There's no reason to create hyperlinks, because the pages themselves are not available online. It's just an online "copy" of the index, with no functionality added except that it can now be read without requiring a trip to the bookstore. 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In-Reply-To: >When rates are set by the entry, what counts as an entry? Each page >locator, even if it's clumped with several other page locators after a For this publisher, anything locator or cross ref is an entry. So cats, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5-7. See also Yoda the cat is 6 entries. I let Cindex count for me. > Khomeini is still dead Hahahaha, that made me LOL I spent $76 at Walmart. Should have stayed home. OTOH, with all the work I just did, I deserve it all. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff In-Reply-To: <37166278.5F5D@earthlink.net> >I admit to a very limited exposure both to this list and to hard core >porn, but I never knew that porography was indexed. Or am I missing >something here? > > Many distributors won't take on a book that isn't indexed, even if one wouldn't think a book needed it. I did an index on an exercise book that was 100 pages long, and I squeeked out maybe 50 entries. Still, it has an index! If y'all want to know, I'll tell you what there is to index in this book. I promise to stick to PG-13. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:11:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff In-Reply-To: <199904152326.TAA07501@nessie.crosslink.net> At 07:16 PM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I admit to a very limited exposure both to this list and to hard core >>porn, but I never knew that porography was indexed. Or am I missing >>something here? >> >> > >Many distributors won't take on a book that isn't indexed, even if one >wouldn't think a book needed it. I did an index on an exercise book that >was 100 pages long, and I squeeked out maybe 50 entries. Still, it has an >index! > >If y'all want to know, I'll tell you what there is to index in this book. I >promise to stick to PG-13. > >Rae > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 > I don't want to know! Please, Rachel, respond OFF LIST. Thank you. Porn is NEVER amusing to me as I know of children who are kidnapped in our country and other countries to fulfill this "industry." Please, off-list. Thank you. Ardith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:42:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: HTML Codes for Web Index "Seth A. Maislin" wrote (in answer to my question): > > > Why create an index for a web site and *not* have the entries be > > links to the indexed files? > > There's no reason to create hyperlinks, because the pages themselves > are not available online. Yep, I took "index for a web site" at face value. It's really an index *on* a web site. Makes more sense, that way! --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:44:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith W. Kip" Subject: Re: Iran The book treats Khomeini and Khamenei as two people (sorry, I should hav= e mentioned that in my first post) but also mentions Khomeini after he dies= . = I guess it's time to ask the editor if it's a typo and, if not, to conta= ct the author to have him explain it to me. Judy Kip ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:16:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff I just got a call today from an editor who wanted me to index a bibliography for $2.50 per page. The book is to have four separate indexes. I told the editor what I WOULD index it for, and pointed out, nicely, that no indexer in their right mind would make four indexes for a book that complex for only 2.50 a page. She really wanted me to do it but needed to check with her boss. I haven't heard back. Maybe someone who isn't in their right mind took it on! If so, I offer my heartfelt condolences. There's nothing worse than working for a couple of dollars per hour once one has realized that it's too late to get out of it! Thanks to comments on index-L I have become much more assertive about what I will and will not do for certain amounts of money. I've never done indexes for low rates but I know, after 10 years of indexing, that I ought to make sure that I charge near the high end of the scale and not drag it down for everyone else. If I take on a complex project for 2.50, the newer indexers who must sometimes be forced to do work for less-than-desirable rates, will face even lower charges, and so on, in what seems to me an unending spiral! Not that we ought to always hold out if we are starving.... Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:26:00 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff It occurs to me that once of the nicest things about freelancing is that you can say no to jobs. I do acknowledge the right of everyone to exercise their own free will in this respect. And, unless the book was about stopping hard core porn, I would turn down any book on this subject. Just my personal choice, Sylvia Coates Ardith B. Ayotte, RT wrote: > At 07:16 PM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote: > >>I admit to a very limited exposure both to this list and to hard core > >>porn, but I never knew that porography was indexed. Or am I missing > >>something here? > >> > >> > > > >Many distributors won't take on a book that isn't indexed, even if one > >wouldn't think a book needed it. I did an index on an exercise book that > >was 100 pages long, and I squeeked out maybe 50 entries. Still, it has an > >index! > > > >If y'all want to know, I'll tell you what there is to index in this book. I > >promise to stick to PG-13. > > > >Rae > > > > Rachel Rice > > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > > Indexing, editing, proofreading > > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > > racric ICQ 31476947 > > > I don't want to know! Please, Rachel, respond OFF LIST. Thank you. Porn > is NEVER amusing to me as I know of children who are kidnapped in our > country and other countries to fulfill this "industry." > Please, off-list. Thank you. > > Ardith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:03:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: Iran In-Reply-To: <199904160047.TAA19281@shooter.bluemarble.net> I have little or no knowledge on whether the former religious and political leader of Iran (I think the Iranians called him Iman at the end and I understand he was a grand ayatollah for decades) was not the only Ayatollah of his surname. Is the first name Rudollah (sp?)? Marvant ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:39:13 EDT Reply-To: MsendakLL@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "" Subject: Avoiding un-Bear-able volume suspend until further notice. Marion Lerner-Levine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:44:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: The Welcomes Subject: software Can anyone tell me the differences, if any, between the Cindex and Macrex software programs? Thanks in advance. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:17:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff Paula Durbin-Westby writes: >Thanks to comments on index-L I have become much more assertive about what >I will and will not do for certain amounts of money. I've never done >indexes for low rates but I know, after 10 years of indexing, that I ought >to make sure that I charge near the high end of the scale and not drag it >down for everyone else. If I take on a complex project for 2.50, the newer >indexers who must sometimes be forced to do work for less-than-desirable >rates, will face even lower charges, and so on, in what seems to me an >unending spiral! > >Not that we ought to always hold out if we are starving.... In response to a recent market mailing I sent out, I received a call yesterday to index text books (middle school/high school) for $1.35 - $1.75 per page! I started indexing 3 years ago at $3.00 a page; last year I accepted work at $2.50 a page; $1.35? I don't know --the trend is definitely going in the wrong direction! And, what's more, they apparently have an indexing test that one must get through before you even qualify for $1.35 a page! I need the work -- it's definitely a dilemma. Sigh - Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:37:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Macmillan tour Macmillan Tour Indexers and editors attending the Indianapolis Conference will have a unique opportunity on Wednesday afternoon. They will be able to take a tour through Macmillan Computer Publishing, which is a part of Pearson Education. The tour is scheduled for Wednesday afternoon. We will be leaving the Crowne Plaza Union Station Hotel around 2:00 and arriving at Macmillan around 2:30 in the afternoon. There will be a tour of production and some areas of interest in the company, following a brief presentation by the production department about Macmillan. The editorial manager will also give a short presentation on indexes and what they contribute to a book and what the relationship is between the in-house indexers and the book editor. This tour was arranged by Joelynn Gifford at Macmillan. The costs for this tour will be for transportation to and from Macmillan. Anyone who would like to take this tour should contact Sandi Schroeder at 847-303-0989 or Sanindex@xsite.net. You will also be able to sign up at the conference, but it would be helpful to know how many people would like to go so that transportation can be arranged. Macmillan will also be giving two presentations at the Friday general sessions. In Editorial Production Process, several members of the Macmillan Training Team will give a presentation on the development stages of a book from an idea to its delivery to the printer. They will discuss the organizational structure of the editorial areas and the editorial functions. This group is responsible for the training of all editorial people at Macmillan. Embedded Indexing will cover the process Macmillan uses to index their books and why they feel embedding entries has been successful for them. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:56:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Hotel block for the Indianapolis Conference The hotel is sold out from June 6 through June 9. I am looking for alternatives. There are, however, some rooms available for June 10, 11, and 12th. If you still need a place to stay, please let me know and I will try to help you. Sandi Schroeder Vice President, ASI sanindex@xsite.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:09:11 EDT Reply-To: MaryMort@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: rates horror and other stuff I think it's important to keep in mind that the size and layout of a page can be such that $2/page or even $1.50 can be a good rate. I don't like to say that I have a minimum rate per se. That said, some rates really are too low but the only way they'll be raised is supply and demand; if no indexer will work for a given rate, I would assume it would be raised. My 2 cents... Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:19:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: job opportunity Information Services Opportunities Towers Perrin, an international human resources consulting firm located in Valhalla, NY has the following information services opportunity: INDEXER to classify the firm=92s intellectual capital and build and maintain the electronic thesaurus. Must have: 2+ yrs experience indexing/abstracting business materials, familiarity with on-line search methods, strong detail orientation, excellent written and verbal communications skills and a client service as well as a quality assurance orientation. Familiarity with benefits, HR, financial services a plus. MLS or equivalent experience preferred. Towers Perrin offers a fast paced environment where new technologies are constantly being explored. Please send or fax or e-mail resumes to: Towers Perrin 100 Summit Lake Drive Valhalla, NY 10595 ATT: Staffing Specialist FAX: 914-745-4100 E-Mail: Horans@towers.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:35:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JJDalton Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 15 Apr 1999 to 16 Apr 1999 "Survey Says" R. Dawson 'Family Fued' My wife asked a question, and I don't have an answer. Perhaps I could bounce it off 'The Collective Wisdom'? For a full time indexer, how many books/jobs do 'you' get per year? This has to do with moving, changing jobs, and taking a major hit on income. Now this is not for your permanent record or tax purposes, exact numbers are not needed. But realistic numbers will help me make a sound decision. I realize many things are taken into account: number of pages, how many hours it takes, how fast you are, if you really try to cram them in or take them as they come, density, etc.etc.etc. I really want to thank 'the Wisdom' for all of the information and expert opinions that have been freely given. It is this kind of education you can't buy. (It may sound smarmy, but it is sincere). John 8^D ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:12:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Shrout Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 15 Apr 1999 to 16 Apr 1999 Since you seem to understand that these numbers give a very incomplete story, here is my number. 25 last year and I also have a full time job. Richard Shrout JJDalton wrote: > > "Survey Says" R. Dawson 'Family Fued' > > My wife asked a question, and I don't have an answer. Perhaps I could > bounce it off 'The Collective Wisdom'? > > For a full time indexer, how many books/jobs do 'you' get per year? > > This has to do with moving, changing jobs, and taking a major hit on income. > Now this is not for your permanent record or tax purposes, exact numbers are > not needed. But realistic numbers will help me make a sound decision. I > realize many things are taken into account: number of pages, how many hours > it takes, how fast you are, if you really try to cram them in or take them > as they come, density, etc.etc.etc. > > I really want to thank 'the Wisdom' for all of the information and expert > opinions that have been freely given. It is this kind of education you > can't buy. (It may sound smarmy, but it is sincere). > > John 8^D ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:33:25 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Books per year To say "how many books" isn't in itself enough information. This year most of my "books" have been in the 1,000-1,200 page range. If I gave a figure for "books per year", it wouldn't give you enough information. If most books are in the 350-450 page range, then these should count for 3 each. Just be aware of that. As an alternative, over the years I've kept track of the number of pages (page proof pages) I've indexed per month. A rough figure is enough, for comparison purposes. I keep a Master Schedule that shows the jobs, # pp., and date due (plus other thumbnail sketch info) -- by the month. Makes it easy to tally pages per month, for historical comparison, from year to year, and by the year. I know how many pages a "normal month" means (ie, I have a life, weekends, etc). I know how many pages is my absolute maximum (no weekend time off, my eyes are strained to the max, I sleep short nights only). This is what serves as my guide as a fulltime indexer. It helps me decide on the spur of the moment whether I *can* take a job, or had better turn it down. Counting books alone would also not take into account indexing jobs that are other than book-length projects. I index quite a few journals on an annual basis. I also provide a weekly cumulative index for in-house use by an engineering trade publication's staff. I also have worked on cumulations of indexes where I didn't do the actual indexing. So there's more to an indexing business than simply book. That said, my annual figure wis about 60 books (some lengthy, as above) -- plus the other types of projects on top of that. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:42:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Books per year In-Reply-To: <199904171334.rhhhgd.t7.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> At 01:33 PM 4/17/99 -0400, you wrote: > >That said, my annual figure wis about 60 books (some lengthy, as above) -- >plus the other types of projects on top of that. Yeah, what she said. I use a program called FastTrack that shows projects in a Gantt-chart format. I can attach a page count to each project and summarize by week, month, and year. I too did about 60 books last year and bout 20,000 pages. I too have a rough idea of how many pages I can do in a given time and I can look at my FastTrack schedule and determine my anticipated workload for any given period. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:05:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 15 Apr 1999 to 16 Apr 1999 At 01:12 PM 4/17/1999 -0400, Richard Shrout wrote: >Since you seem to understand that these numbers give a very incomplete >story, here is my number. 25 last year and I also have a full time job. I used to do more, for less pay. Over the past few years, I have essentially ceased editing and concentrated solely on indexing...and I've also increased my minimum price for a job. I probably average 3 indexes a month...not a high number, but "enough" under my particular circumstances. I know I could easily increase this with some marketing, but for the time being I am happy with a work week that averages 30 hours, rather than the 50+ I was putting in for awhile. Average page count? Well, that's more of a dilemma. I suppose it would be somewhere around 450-500 pages per book, but I also do a four-volume tax preparation manual every year that contains about 3200 pages total. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:33:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: someone's got to index it... We discussed here recently about indexing books whose content we found disturbing in some way. I didn't pay enough attention then. Wish I had. However, now that I've actually got the book, it isn't hard core porn at all (which is what I was told it would be, which makes me wonder about the sensibilities and attitudes of my contact at this publishing house) but rather a how-to book for enhancing one's sensuality and sexual pleasure with a monogamous partner. About on a level with The Joy of Sex (well, not quite, but almost). But even if it were porn, again, if it didn't contain the things I've mentioned as offensive to me, I'd still be willing to index it. And in fact, at $2.50 per page, I will certainly still make my bottom-line hourly rate as it's quite well-written and well-organized, and will in fact have an average of only 1 or 2 entries per page. I agree with Sylvia that one of the best things about freelance work is being able to say no. I add that one of the things I like best about indexing is reading books that I would never otherwise read. If I had turned this one away, it would have been for the low rate of pay, not the content. I did ask if it contained anything that was abusive or humiliating or nonconsensual to anyone (or anything) and was told no, but I did say that if I found otherwise I might have to stop working on it, and that was agreed to. We all have things we can't deal with. I remember when I was in grad school having to find out what I might not be able to suspend judgment on, so that I would know what population I couldn't effectively treat. I knew then and it's still true that I can't cope with animal or child abuse, but almost anything I can deal with. Not like, not enjoy, but cope. If I couldn't cope with all the horrific things I've heard in 13 years as a psychiatric crisis clinician, I would have to quit and go to indexing full time! And then I could easily avoid those things I couldn't tolerate. What a great thing, to be able to choose! And at the risk of stating the obvious, not all porn has anything at all to do with children, or abuse, or degradation (some of the off-list mail I've gotten has made the assumption that as the book (as I was told it was) was pornography, that that would be the content. It isn't. Far from it. As a side note, it's missing some pages internally, the verb "to lay" is frequently misused (if *I* had copyedited it it wouldn't have been), and the publisher still doesn't have the ability to receive electronic submissions. As my floppy drive hasn't worked in at least a year, and I haven't needed it in all that time, I'm going to have to send it as an attached file to a friend, and offload it onto to a disk, which I will have to go and buy. You'd think publishers would have entered the 20th century by now. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:57:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: someone's got to index it; joys of indexing In-Reply-To: <199904171937.PAA12312@mx04.erols.com> Thanks for your description of the book you are working on, Rachel. I agree that one of the joys of indexing is reading things one might not have otherwise looked at. Today I experienced one of the other joys of indexing, and it was a first for me. Someone came up to me at a gathering after morning services at a Jewish community and said that he had noticed my name listed as indexer for a book he had assigned for a creative writing course. I've always been pleased when I've gotten credit for doing an index, but I assumed no one ever really noticed the credits (no one except other indexers, maybe). The book is a reissue of Muriel Rukeyser, The Life of Poetry, and it's the sort of book for which publishers don't usually provide an index (a short book, not really linear); I had fun with it. The publisher loved what I did and even thought about using one segment of the index in advertisements for the book, to show the wide range of topics discussed. Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:16:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: someone's got to index it... At 03:33 PM 4/17/1999 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote: >However, now that I've actually got the book, it isn't hard core porn at >all (which is what I was told it would be, which makes me wonder about the >sensibilities and attitudes of my contact at this publishing house) but >rather a how-to book for enhancing one's sensuality and sexual pleasure >with a monogamous partner. About on a level with The Joy of Sex (well, not >quite, but almost). But even if it were porn, again, if it didn't contain >the things I've mentioned as offensive to me, I'd still be willing to index >it. And in fact, at $2.50 per page, I will certainly still make my >bottom-line hourly rate as it's quite well-written and well-organized, and >will in fact have an average of only 1 or 2 entries per page. I edited a similar book several years ago, for a publisher who seemed to understand the difference between "porn" and "sensuality" or "eroticism." I made decent money, but also very much enjoyed (and learned from) the book for the fine writing and excellent ideas expressed. When you first brought this up on-list, I was as puzzled by the need for an index as were several other people. I've =seen= hard-core porn, and there is absolutely NOTHING indexable about it. It's formulaic junk, nominally "fiction," with virtually no redeeming qualities and certainly not anything that any self-respecting library would have on its shelves. And, since libraries are the main non-publishing "pushers" of indexes, I just couldn't imagine what kind of book it might be. Thanks for clearing up the mystery! I also did an index for a book about the treatment of pedophiles...very scientific, very dry, and VERY informative. I was told, clearly and up-front, by the publisher, exactly what the book was about. No amorphous "hard core porn" designation, but rather a specific description of what the book contained. The editor had been turned down by a couple of copyeditors early on, and assumed she'd have the same problem locating an indexer. When I understood that it did not contain detailed descriptions of child abuse, but rather was a description of treatment methods, I was willing to sign on for the job. I got "hazardous duty pay" for the job, learned a lot, and felt quite comfortable about the whole transaction. >As a side note, it's missing some pages internally, the verb "to lay" is >frequently misused (if *I* had copyedited it it wouldn't have been), and >the publisher still doesn't have the ability to receive electronic >submissions. As my floppy drive hasn't worked in at least a year, and I >haven't needed it in all that time, I'm going to have to send it as an >attached file to a friend, and offload it onto to a disk, which I will have >to go and buy. You'd think publishers would have entered the 20th century >by now. Rachel, I happen to have a brand-new, still-in-the-box floppy drive if you'd like to try installing one yourself. It is the simplest sort of thing for a beginning repair person to attempt; I know because I installed one in another computer. You probably ought to have an operable floppy drive just on general principles; let me know off-list if you're interested. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:17:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: technological currency, or, keeping up with the Joneses Rachel Rice wrote: > the publisher still doesn't have the ability to receive electronic > submissions. As my floppy drive hasn't worked in at least a year, and I > haven't needed it in all that time, I'm going to have to send it as an > attached file to a friend, and offload it onto to a disk, which I will have > to go and buy. You'd think publishers would have entered the 20th century > by now. They have . If they're accepting disks, they're at least into the late seventies/early eighties! I was in late junior high/early high school when the first home computers appeared. My family was among the first to have one -- a TRS80. I remember him saying of his second computer -- in around 1979 or 1980 -- that he had more power sitting on his desktop than he had had in a whole room at ETS (where he had worked on a room-filling mainframe.) I taught a high school course on computer history in the mid-1990s. The students seemed unable to grasp the idea that computers hadn't been around forever. (Rachel, I'm not implying you have the same problem! Your wry comment merely set me off on a train of thought.) I couldn't convey the enormity of the changes the world has seen in the last 50 years, and especially in the last 25, since the advent of the personal computer. (Yes, this does relate to indexing. Eventually!) The rate of change keeps accelerating. In terms of marketing, a computer or component is now gone from the shelves in 6-18 months. 486s, cutting edge only a few years ago, are rapidly becoming obsolete: they don't have the power to run today's software and operating systems. It's perhaps not too surprising that many publishing firms have lagged behind in acquiring and using some of the latest technology. The more established firms tend to be fairly conservative; the smaller, younger ones may not be able to keep upgrading for financial reasons. Taking advantage of new technologies requires not only investment in the technology itself -- hard to justify if what you have does what you need it to do, and the newer stuff is expensive -- but also investment in training. Conservative or cash-poor firms may make the best use of what they have until there is real incentive to change, i.e., other firms are outpacing them due to more modern technology, or new technology offers real benefits they can't get any other way. The same criteria apply to indexers, as well. The financial outlay to maintain technological currency can be substantial. Some indexers plan for this; they set aside the money to upgrade or replace their system every two or three years. Those of us for whom indexing is a part-time or supplemental income may not have that luxury. I've sunk what for me is a lot of money into making my current system viable. I hope that it will serve me for four or five years. But I know better than to count on that, given the current rate of change and development. Inertia and fear are another reason both publishers and indexers avoid new technologies. Personally, I'm both intrigued and nervous about the growing trend toward web-based, electronic, and embedded indexing. I have no one to teach me HTML or other coding skills. I don't currently have the luxury of time to teach it to myself: when I'm not indexing, I'm being a mother, and vice-versa. Yet I'm worried that if I don't learn it soon, I'll fall behind; I, as well as my computer, will be in danger of becoming obsolete. I try to remind myself that books aren't going to disappear anytime soon. But it is a concern. It strikes me that maintaining technological currency is one of the issues indexers will face increasingly over the next decade. It can be hard to discern which skills and equipment are becoming mandatory, which are useful or "additional" but not necessary, and which are merely a flash in the pan, destined to fizzle as quickly as they arise. Perhaps technological currency is an area which could be addressed by the various indexing Societies through workshops, publications, and discussions. Certainly it has been, and continues to be, a topic on Index-L, for which I am most grateful. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:18:16 -0500 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: Number of books indexed per year I have one computer client who regularly sends me 40-70 manuals per year. Most of them are small, 100-200 pages and only require about 2 hours to index; a few are in the 300-900 page range. I usually index 8-10 medical books per year, averaging 500-800 pages each--a few smaller and few much larger. 2 newsletters per year, a monthly and a quarterly. 6 journals indexes per year, almost all of them are monthly and some have supplements. Two "transactions" of a medical society organization governing body each year, about 300-400 pages. That's about it. I could probably do more if not for helping my husband with his printing business when he gets in a crunch. Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:51:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chandonnet /Soumah Subject: IASC/SCAD Annual General Meeting 1999 INDEXING : FROM PRACTICE TO RESEARCH ... AND BACK! 1999 IASC ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING Planning is well under way for the two-day IASC meeting on May 7 and 8 1999 in Montreal. The planning committee this year is made of Ginette Chandonnet, Michhle Hudon, Christine Jacobs, James Turner, and Noeline Bridge (ex officio). Here s an overview of what we have in store for you. On Friday, May 7 * Two half-day workshops : in the morning (9:00 to 12:30), Indexing 101, offered in English by Catherine Keenan and Christopher Blackburn; in the afternoon (1:30 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.), Gestion du vocabulaire et contrtle d autoriti, offered in French by Michhle Hudon. On Saturday May 8 * 9:00 a.m. : Registration and coffee. * 9:15 a.m. : Welcoming speech. * 9:30 a.m. : Keynote presentation by Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, professor at Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information (EBSI) of Universiti de Montrial, and well known researcher in the field of indexing. * 10:00 a.m. : Break * 10:30 a.m. : Description and discussion of techniques used for indexing visual materials with James Turner of EBSI and Yvon Lemay of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC). * 11:45 a.m. : Lunch * 1:30 p.m. : Presentations of subject and name authority files used in various contexts (local, national, international). * 2:30 p.m. : Round table on the theme: Marketing your indexing services with Noeline Bridge, President of IASC. * 3:30 p.m. : Break * 3:45 p.m. : General assembly of members of the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada. Half of the presentations will be made in English. You will find on IASC website ( http://esi25.ESI.Umontreal.CA:80/~turner/iasc/agm/AGMen.htm ) a more detailed description of the content of the two workshops offered on May 7, an invitation to attend the IASC/SCAD general assembly, as well as a registration form for the workshops and/or the activities of May 8. We hope that many of you will accept our invitation to participate in these activities, a good opportunity to update your knowledge on various subjects, to meet with colleagues, and to make new friends. See you soon, in Montreal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- L'INDEXATION : DE LA PRATIQUE @ LA RECHERCHE ... @ LA PRATIQUE! RENCONTRE GINIRALE ANNUELLE 1999 DE LA SCAD Les priparatifs vont bon train pour la rencontre des 7 et 8 mai prochain ` Montrial. Le comiti d organisation est formi cette annie de Ginette Chandonnet, Michhle Hudon, Christine Jacobs, James Turner et de Noeline Bridge (ex officio). Voici un apergu de ce que nous priparons pour vous. Le vendredi 7 mai : * Deux ateliers de formation d une demi-journie : en avant-midi (9h00-12h30), Indexing 101, offert en anglais par Catherine Keenan et Christopher Blackburn; en aprhs-midi (13h30-17h00), Gestion du vocabulaire et contrtle d autoriti, offert en frangais par Michhle Hudon. Le samedi 8 mai : * 9h00 : Inscription et cafi. * 9h15 : Mot de bienvenue. * 9h30 : Confirence d ouverture donnie par Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, professeure ` l Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information (EBSI) de l Universiti de Montrial et chercheure de renom dans le domaine de l indexation. * 10h00 : Pause * 10h30 : Communications sur les techniques d indexation de l image avec James Turner de l'EBSI et Yvon Lemay de la Sociiti Radio-Canada (SRC). * 11h45 : Dnner * 13h30 : Prisentations de fichiers d autoriti des noms et des sujets en usage dans divers milieux (locaux, nationaux et internationaux). * 14h30 : Table ronde sur le marketing des services d indexation avec Noeline Bridge, Prisidente de la SCAD. * 15h30 : Pause * 15h45 : Assemblie ginirale des membres de la Sociiti canadienne pour l analyse des documents. Nous privoyons que la moitii des communications seront faites en frangais. Vous trouverez sur le site web de la SCAD (http://esi25.ESI.UMontreal.CA:80/~turner/iasc/agm/AGMfr.htm ) une description plus ditaillie du contenu des ateliers offerts le 7 mai, une invitation ` participer ` l Assemblie ginirale de la SCAD, ainsi qu un bulletin d inscription aux ateliers du 7 mai et/ou ` la journie du samedi 8 mai. Nous espirons que vous serez nombreux ` accepter notre invitation ` participer ` ces activitis qui vous donneront l occasion de vous ressourcer, de rencontrer vos collhgues et amis et d itablir de nouveaux contacts. @ bienttt, ` Montrial. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:05:14 EDT Reply-To: Lawrenc846@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re "Survey Says" R. Dawson 'Family Fued' Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:35:55 -0700 From: JJDalton Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 15 Apr 1999 to 16 Apr 1999 "Survey Says" R. Dawson 'Family Fued' My wife asked a question, and I don't have an answer. Perhaps I could bounce it off 'The Collective Wisdom'? For a full time indexer, how many books/jobs do 'you' get per year? This has to do with moving, changing jobs, and taking a major hit on income. Now this is not for your permanent record or tax purposes, exact numbers are not needed. But realistic numbers will help me make a sound decision. I realize many things are taken into account: number of pages, how many hours it takes, how fast you are, if you really try to cram them in or take them as they come, density, etc.etc.etc. I really want to thank 'the Wisdom' for all of the information and expert opinions that have been freely given. It is this kind of education you can't buy. (It may sound smarmy, but it is sincere). John 8^D -------------------------------------------------------- My experience has been different from others responding to this question. First some background: I have a Ph.D in Anthropology, an MLS, and am fluent in Spanish as well as English. My earliest indexing work dates from the '70's when I was project director (and principal investigator) for archival indexing projects in Mexico and Guatemala. I took indexing courses from the Library School at Catholic University (DC) and have been looking for work as a professional indexer since 1992. My lifetime total of indexed works consists of 59 books/monographs and one journal (1992/98). Of these 42 monographs came from one publisher who paid less than $2 per page. Incidentally I asked for a raise this year. The response was to hire someone else. Of the 17 other books, 9 of them were written by me, leaving only 8 books for which I was paid more than $2 per page. One of those books, by the way, was in Spanish. This year I've only had two indexing jobs, both from the publisher who pays less than $2 a page, and as noted above, I will not be getting any more work from him. In terms of soliciting work, I've tried cold calling, mailing of resumes and everything else suggested to me or mentioned on Index-L or elsewhere. Currently I am in the midst, once more (I do this every year), of sending out resumes (600+ so far). My experience is that this is a very hard business in which to get any work at all and I can't recommend it as source of anything other than occasional income. Lawrence H. Feldman Indexer-Researcher-Writer Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Re "Survey Says" R. Dawson 'Family Fued' In-Reply-To: <5aad5053.244b409a@aol.com> I did my first index in November of 1995 (remember the infamous Rabbi book?), and since then have done 39 plus the one I'm doing now, plus one lined up after this one, so 41 since then, which is 41 months! So, uh, one a month after all (though I've had stretches of 2-3 months with no indexes, then big flurries like last month). I do minimal marketing and get most of my work from 3 regular clients (one of whom is an editor and acts as sort of a broker or referral agent and puts me in touch with publishers and authors that she's working with, so I am not paid by her, and I negotiate each index individually with that publisher or author). I get a lot of repeat business from several of them. As we all know by now, I'm not happy with the rates from the newest company, so will probably do a little marketing to find someone else. I find that I am doing the number of indexes I want to do, and supplement my full-time salary by an extra 6 to 10K per year, very nice, for not too much extra stress (not counting this past month which will not happen again, I assure you). I do turn away an average of 2 or 3 a month, so if I wanted to go full time I probably could. I don't wanna. I get way too lonely and feel trapped and isolated, and incompetent to boot. And overwhelmed. And antsy. So my experience is that indexing is a very excellent source of extra income, and could very well support me nicely if I went full time. Today I am ging to index for only a few hours, then go out! I'm actually double-dipping as I'm also on call for my job, which is my job--to be on call. Which is why I can so easily add indexing even though I technically work full time. I realize it's not so easy for other people who also work full time in addition to indexing. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:55:16 EDT Reply-To: Sendx@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita Levy Subject: Books per year Thought I'd join this thread to introduce the issue of seasonality. Space Coast Indexers indexed about 70 books last year; this included many brief ones that are parts of series as well as some 800+ page jobs and most in the 200-300 page range. (We were offered about 10 additional projects which we were unable to accept. I've found that most editors did not want my referrals, preferring to go down their own list until they found somebody to take the project.) Anita Levy Space Coast Indexers Inc. Cocoa Beach FL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:18:19 EDT Reply-To: Anntrue@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: technological currency, or, keeping up with the Joneses Kara, Your comments below gave me an instant flashback to my college days. I attended a small state-run women's college, and in 1965, they were just as proud as punch to have acquired a computer. I have a clear picture of seeing it for the first time - it was about the size of a *large* walk-in cooler. I am sure that it could do almost as much as today's $9.95 pocket calculators, albeit with a lot more trouble for the operator! I remember that it was housed in a room in the basement of the college administration building. Maybe that building was air conditioned - none of the other buildings on campus were. How many kids today could envision living without AC either, esp. in hot, humid SC? ;-) > I taught a high school course on computer history in the mid-1990s. The > students seemed unable to grasp the idea that computers hadn't been around > forever. (Rachel, I'm not implying you have the same problem! Your wry > comment merely set me off on a train of thought.) I couldn't convey the > enormity of the changes the world has seen in the last 50 years, and > especially in the last 25, since the advent of the personal computer. > (Yes, this does relate to indexing. Eventually!) snip > > Conservative or cash-poor firms may > make the best use of what they have until there is real incentive to > change, i.e., other firms are outpacing them due to more modern technology, > or new technology offers real benefits they can't get any other way. > Yep, I've been here too. I had a 3-station LAN at my vet office, which was doing just fine using a DOS vet specialty program, a 486 server and two 286's for workstations. Then the 486 crashed & I ended up with a Pentium with Windows, and a 386 second-hand from my husband's firm plus one of the 286's still in use in the pharmacy to print labels. So with an expense of over $3000, I gained a fancy word processor, my office manager had lots of fun with the screen savers, and I had to figure out how to cut one of the less motivated staffers off from Solitaire! The backbone of the whole works, the DOS program ran *almost* as well as on the 486! You bet the economics of a solo vet practice precludes tossing any computer before it goes up in smoke! Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:18:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: someone's got to index it... At 03:33 PM 4/17/99 -0400, you wrote: >We discussed here recently about indexing books whose content we found >disturbing in some way. I didn't pay enough attention then. Wish I had. > >However, now that I've actually got the book, it isn't hard core porn at >all (which is what I was told it would be, which makes me wonder about the >sensibilities and attitudes of my contact at this publishing house) but >rather a how-to book for enhancing one's sensuality and sexual pleasure >with a monogamous partner. About on a level with The Joy of Sex (well, not >quite, but almost). But even if it were porn, again, if it didn't contain >the things I've mentioned as offensive to me, I'd still be willing to index >it. And in fact, at $2.50 per page, I will certainly still make my >bottom-line hourly rate as it's quite well-written and well-organized, and >will in fact have an average of only 1 or 2 entries per page. Interesting choice of words at this juncture ... "bottom-line" ... ;-) MJB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:35:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: CNN story of interest http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9904/17/internet.clutter.ap/ Note the quote about searchability being improved through "better indexing." We'll teach 'em yet! :-) -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:41:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "MAB (Borchard, Marj)" Subject: Looking for "automatic" indexing software We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of hundreds of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts of the program. Users will have the ability to make their own customized changes to some of these files whenever they want. The programmer has asked me to see if there is some type of software tool that will automatically index these files. My inital reaction is that we will have to identify keywords (create an index) for the software that we send to customers; then, when they update the files, they also will have to identify any keywords they want. --Is there any type of "smart" indexing that would automatically identify keywords? Would this work across many documents and be combined in one big index? --The next question involves compiling these index entries. If the user adds to or makes changes to index entries in a file, is there a way to save these index entries to a main index immediately? I think what the programmer has in mind is some type of software that would "lurk" in the background and "detect" when the user adds to or changes some index entries and then add those to the main index. He is looking for some "batch" processing because he doesn't want the user to sit through compiling hundreds of files each time they save some changes. But if a major compile had to occur at the end of the day or automatically at night, this would be OK. --Would the user need to purchase the indexing software and what costs would be involved? If needed, I can provide more details off-line. Thanks for any insights on this! Marj Borchard mab@roisysinc.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:50:29 EDT Reply-To: ALINDBLOM@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: CNN story of interest In a message dated 4/19/99 9:39:49 AM EST, Sharon.Wright@LEXIS-NEXIS.COM writes: << ttp://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9904/17/internet.clutter.ap/ Note the quote about searchability being improved through "better indexing." We'll teach 'em yet! :-) -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com >> Here is the quote: "Sites like this are slowly improving, mainly through better indexing," Li said. "They're trying to provide meaningful content in an easy way. And we haven't seen much of that." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:53:44 EDT Reply-To: ALINDBLOM@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: CNN story of interest In a message dated 4/19/99 11:50:29 AM EST, ALINDBLOM writes: << << ttp://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9904/17/internet.clutter.ap/ Note the quote about searchability being improved through "better indexing." We'll teach 'em yet! :-) -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com >> Here is the quote: "Sites like this are slowly improving, mainly through better indexing," Li said. "They're trying to provide meaningful content in an easy way. And we haven't seen much of that." >> Oops! I accidently sent this before finishing. They are referring to a new search engine called "Ask Jeeves!" (www.ask.com). Debbie Lindblom alindblom@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:37:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith McQuay Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software I think you might be looking more for text retrieval software. I've worked with one I really liked: Isys (http://www.isysdev.com/) . Isys will organize and present your documents in a coherent list, taking headings from places you specify in the documents. "ISYS indexes over seventy file formats including WP documents, spreadsheets, relational databases and PDF publications." I imagine you can probably set it up to search index terms you assign to each document as well though I've not used it this way. Such an obvious use for it though I can't imagine they've overlooked it. Anyway, might be worth looking into. Keith McQuay Foreword Indexing Services 31 Princeton Place Kingston, Ont. K7N 1E7 613-634-2669 ---------- >From: "MAB (Borchard, Marj)" >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Looking for "automatic" indexing software >Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999, 11:41 AM > >We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of hundreds >of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts of >the program. Users will have the ability to make their own customized >changes to some of these files whenever they want. The programmer has >asked me to see if there is some type of software tool that will >automatically index these files. > >My inital reaction is that we will have to identify keywords (create an >index) for the software that we send to customers; then, when they update >the files, they also will have to identify any keywords they want. > > --Is there any type of "smart" indexing that would automatically identify >keywords? Would this work across many documents and be combined in one >big index? > > --The next question involves compiling these index entries. If the user >adds to or makes changes to index entries in a file, is there a way to >save these index entries to a main index immediately? > >I think what the programmer has in mind is some type of software that >would "lurk" in the background and "detect" when the user adds to or >changes some index entries and then add those to the main index. He is >looking for some "batch" processing because he doesn't want the user to >sit through compiling hundreds of files each time they save some changes. > But if a major compile had to occur at the end of the day or >automatically at night, this would be OK. > > --Would the user need to purchase the indexing software and what costs >would be involved? > >If needed, I can provide more details off-line. Thanks for any insights >on this! > >Marj Borchard >mab@roisysinc.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:27:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "MAB (Borchard, Marj)" Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software Keith - Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look at the Web site. Marj B. -----Original Message----- From: Keith McQuay [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 4:37 PM To: mab; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - I think you might be looking more for text retrieval software. I've worked with one I really liked: Isys (http://www.isysdev.com/) . Isys will organize and present your documents in a coherent list, taking headings from places you specify in the documents. "ISYS indexes over seventy file formats including WP documents, spreadsheets, relational databases and PDF publications." I imagine you can probably set it up to search index terms you assign to each document as well though I've not used it this way. Such an obvious use for it though I can't imagine they've overlooked it. Anyway, might be worth looking into. Keith McQuay Foreword Indexing Services 31 Princeton Place Kingston, Ont. K7N 1E7 613-634-2669 ---------- >From: "MAB (Borchard, Marj)" >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Looking for "automatic" indexing software >Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999, 11:41 AM > >We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of hundreds >of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts of >the program. Users will have the ability to make their own customized >changes to some of these files whenever they want. The programmer has >asked me to see if there is some type of software tool that will >automatically index these files. > >My inital reaction is that we will have to identify keywords (create an >index) for the software that we send to customers; then, when they update >the files, they also will have to identify any keywords they want. > > --Is there any type of "smart" indexing that would automatically identify >keywords? Would this work across many documents and be combined in one >big index? > > --The next question involves compiling these index entries. If the user >adds to or makes changes to index entries in a file, is there a way to >save these index entries to a main index immediately? > >I think what the programmer has in mind is some type of software that >would "lurk" in the background and "detect" when the user adds to or >changes some index entries and then add those to the main index. He is >looking for some "batch" processing because he doesn't want the user to >sit through compiling hundreds of files each time they save some changes. > But if a major compile had to occur at the end of the day or >automatically at night, this would be OK. > > --Would the user need to purchase the indexing software and what costs >would be involved? > >If needed, I can provide more details off-line. Thanks for any insights >on this! > >Marj Borchard >mab@roisysinc.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:35:03 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Indexing speed increase over time? In thinking of my business plan, goals, time available and other assorted items, I've come up against an unknown variable that is throwing off my calculations. I'm wondering if people could speak to the change in speed of indexing that has taken place over the courses of their careers. We wouldn't need to know how fast you can index a certain book, but how much faster you can index it now (x years later) than you could in Year 1 of indexing. Perhaps Years 2, 5 and 10 would be good to talk about. Types of books might be interesting to note, as we could then see whether certain types lend themselves to greater "growth potential." I would assume that a general increase could be calculated across all books per indexer, though I'm sure there are some specific types that take as long now as they did then? I've noted a change within Year 1, but don't have enough experience to give an accurate figure (not enough work done on similar-type books; mine have been across the board so far)./Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:24:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Indexing speed increase over time? I can speak to on change that computerization has made very definitely with one annual index that I've been doing since 1980. On 3X5 cards and having to then type the index to very specific type-setting criteria, it took 200 hours. The same index today with Cindex for Windows takes about 50 hours. Hows that for a dramatic change? Charles anderson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:17:11 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing speed increase over time? I would say that my speed has increased dramatically over time. It should be a major factor in your planning. I can't quantify, but I can see it taking much less time now than it used to ... even after all these years of indexing (for me). Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:59:50 -0700 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: word97 Hi all, I'm desperate. Does anyone know how to convert endnote numerals to superscript in Word 97 for Windows? I can do it one at a time, but I have more than 1200 notes. The endnotes themselves will be placed all together at the end of the chapters. Not really an indexing question, but I am going to index this book--eventually. thanks, kathy p ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:39:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Indexing speed increase over time? My speed has suddenly become faster in the past month or two and seems to be staying that way. I don't know why. I suppose I've been in some sort of learning curve for a year or so. I'm pretty sure two years ago I was much slower because I remember that I had a three-book-per-month limit, whereas now it is up to six (not that I want to do six every month!) Part of that is also that I can stand to do it for longer periods of time, not that I'm twice as fast. I know that I spend about one third of the time reading, one third typing and one third editing. I can usually tell by the end of the first hour of indexing almost exactly how long it will take me to finish the project and at that point I make a schedule for myself. I started out way back when with index cards, a separate person to do the carding, a separate typist, etc. If for some reason indexing software disappeared from the face of the earth, I would start looking for another job. I used to give my marked-up proofs to the carder and typist and not see them for a week or so, then have to spend time wondering what the book was about (bad short term memory) because I was already working on another. I hope this helps. Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:47:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: word97 I'm not sure how your endnotes are entered, but if you use edit-replace in Word97 and click on the "more" box, one of the special characters (use the "special" button) you can search for is an endnote mark. You can then use wildcards to search for the numerals you need, and then use the replace to change their formatting. Is this what you need? Iris Kathy Paparchontis wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm desperate. Does anyone know how to convert endnote > numerals to superscript in Word 97 for Windows? I can do > it one at a time, but I have more than 1200 notes. The endnotes > themselves will be placed all together at the end of the chapters. > > Not really an indexing question, but I am going to index > this book--eventually. > > thanks, > kathy p ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:47:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Karen Lane Subject: Re: word97 Kathy, >Does anyone know how to convert endnote >numerals to superscript in Word 97 for Windows? I can do >it one at a time, but I have more than 1200 notes. The endnotes >themselves will be placed all together at the end of the chapters. I use Word 97 for Windows, and my endnote references are already superscripted. However, if yours are not (for some reason), you can fix that easily. Highlight one of them and notice the name of the style that shows up in the Style box up at the top. In mine it's Endnote Reference. Go to Format | Style, make sure the name of the style in question is highlighted, and click "Modify." Click Format, select Font, and check Superscript. That should do it. E-mail me offlist if you need further clarification. Karen Lane klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:11:31 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing speed increase over time? I'll look up my statistics when I have time--I'm interested in the speed-up curve too, although I only have statistics starting at three years (because before that I was working for a collective). I know that I've gotten faster and faster over the years. And my speed doubled when I started using Macrex. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:22:24 EDT Reply-To: BECohen653@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Returning Home (Update) Hi all, I am returning to my home today, so you can send information to me there for the next few weeks. My parents are starting to show signs of recovery, although they have at least 3-6 weeks more of rest before they will be truly better. Broken ribs and ankles take a long time to heal! Many thanks to everyone who sent me cards or e-mail. I will try to respond personally after I get home and get unpacked, and as soon as the index due today is done! :) Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:51:20 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing speed increase over time? Kevin wrote: << What did you use before Macrex? >I know that I've gotten faster and faster over the years. And my speed doubled when I started using Macrex. >> Index cards, typed into a word processor. The interim step (I think I used it for about three indexes before I got wise) was indexing directly into the word processor. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:55:56 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: books indexed per year Last time I checked I was indexing about 52 books per year, or about one a week (!) About half of those are scholarly books: 250-350 pages but quite dense; the other half are textbooks or other long books: 600-800 pages or sometimes longer, but faster to index. I don't quite index full time since I'm homeschooling--maybe 3/4 time? Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Indexing speed increase over time? Another consideration regarding indexing speed is my interest in the topic. It turns out, perhaps unfortunately for my maximum-dollars-per-hour goal, that the books that are the most captivating to me are also the most time-consuming. I'll work on them for hours at a time. If I get an "easy" book that doesn't hold my interest, it will take me just as long because I tend to get up and down from my seat, wander around the house, and generally act like a kid who's waiting for the recess bell to ring. I used to wonder why such a simple book took the same amount of time as one that required me to almost turn the book upside down trying to figure out what the author meant (as can happen with a branch of philosophy that's new to me). I think the extra mental effort rewards me because the time seems somehow well-spent. I'm too cognizant of pushing buttons on the keyboard with the other sort of book. So I'm not as tempted by something that seems "easy" these days. Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: Employment opportunity FEDERAL AND STATE TAX Position: Senior Indexer Grade 16 Department: Federal Tax Service Location: Riverwoods Reports to: Pam Carron Responsibilities: Generates and maintains index for Federal Tax Service (FTS) and other Federal tax products. Supervises and provides technical, troubleshooting and problem-solving support for FTS index in the SGML environment. Responsible for index quality assurance for FTS and other assigned products. Work with FTS staff to develop and implement efficient production workflows for all elements of product maintenance, enhancement and revision. Participates in product evaluation, development and enhancements. Qualifications: Bachelor degree or equivalent is required. 2+ years indexing experience in a publishing environment. Experience indexing technical publications and/or trade publications a plus. Knowledge of CINDEX indexing tools required. Knowledge of Ingress indexing tools a plus. SGML experience/knowledge a plus. Ability to work independently and in a team environment (both as a team member and as a leader). Outstanding oral and written communication skills. Professional attitude, flexible and positively responsive to change. Strong organizational, time management, project management and interpersonal skills. Familiarity with CCH systems as plus. Familiarity withWindows 95, Lotus Notes 4.6, Office 97, and general computer literacy required. Excellent proofreading skills and keen attention to detail required. All interested and qualified individuals are encouraged to Submit an application to CCH INCORPORATED 2700 Lake Cook Road Riverwoods, IL 60015 Fax: 847/267-7878 Phone: 847/267-2213 Attention: Denise Felch ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:00:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information, Inc. Subject: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! Hello, All - My brain is fried; I'm proofreading and indexing a book (as well as finishing up two other indexes) and I suddenly came across this awkward sentence... that I have no idea how to fix. Oh yes, and UPS is coming at 7:00 pm to pick up the completed proofreading. Please edit this sentence for me. It's the "that's" that froze my brain in this sentence. I think it's wrong, but can't seem to fix it. Sheesh! Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application that's memory activities cause other applications to fail? Or maybe it's ok as is? Ann -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:06:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Aganita Varkentine (S&T Onsite)" Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! that's = "when its" or "where its" -----Original Message----- From: Ann Norcross [mailto:norcross@IPASS.NET] Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 3:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! Hello, All - My brain is fried; I'm proofreading and indexing a book (as well as finishing up two other indexes) and I suddenly came across this awkward sentence... that I have no idea how to fix. Oh yes, and UPS is coming at 7:00 pm to pick up the completed proofreading. Please edit this sentence for me. It's the "that's" that froze my brain in this sentence. I think it's wrong, but can't seem to fix it. Sheesh! Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application that's memory activities cause other applications to fail? Or maybe it's ok as is? Ann -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:31:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information, Inc. Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! Bless you all. Here are the answers I got... in VERY speedy order, I might add. Thank you all so much. Does "whose" sound better than the posessive "that's" in this case? (Although it is a thing, not a person...) Change "that's" to "whose". It's OK; blessed by Theodore M. Bernstein in "The Careful Writer." His example is "whose broad stripes and bright stars." Substitute whose for that's. Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application with memory activities that cause other applications to fail? Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application when its memory activities cause other applications to fail? that's = "when its" or "where its" Try..."An event viewer can be selected to monitor your system for applications whose memory activities cause other applications to fail." I went with this one: Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application with memory activities that cause other applications to fail? Thank you all. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:48:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Brown Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! Hi Ann, Fowler's "Modern English Usage," which is not very modern, suggests using "whose" as the possessive for inanimate objects to promote clarity. This would produce the following: Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application whose memory activities cause other applications to fail? A more awkward phrasing that avoids using whose for an inanimate object would be as follows: Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application the memory activities of which cause other applications to fail? Another possibility: Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application that because of its memory activities causes other applications to fail? > > Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an > application that's memory activities cause other applications to > fail? > > Or maybe it's ok as is? > I don't think so, as it would appear to stand for "that is." Or that's how it seems to me (and Fowler), ____ /om tombrown@mint.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:09:26 -0700 Reply-To: penguins@wave.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Breffni Whelan Subject: E-mailing indexes I have been sending my indexes mostly in the old-fashioned way - by UPS. But given the discussion about e-mailing indexes I have tried to send myself a sample. Results have not been successful so far.... I attached an index in the form of an ASCII file and e-mailed it to myself. I then tried to open the received attachment. Got an "open attachment warning" with two options: -- Open it -- Save it to disk I selected the first option, and got a message: "This file does not have a program associated with it for performing this action. Create an association in My Computer by clicking View then clicking Options." I went there - the options were: FOLDER, VIEW and FILE TYPE. Nothing looked likely in the first, the second had to do with hidden files, and each time I went to the third I got a message "Program Caused illegal option and will be shut down." I found a way around this finally - by going straight to the File Type option without looking at "View." Unless it's "Add new file type" I can't see what they are suggesting. Nor is it obvious to me which file type to add.... So, then trying the "Save it to disk" option, I saved it to a .wpd file and looked at it using my word processor. I could see it, alright, but the text was blurred. And it eliminated the double-spacing between one pair of lines on each page. I have been able to open attachments sent to me by other people - what am I doing wrong here? ---- Breffni ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 02:17:27 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! << Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an application that's memory activities cause other applications to fail? >> I would substitute "whose" for "that's." Good for you for asking for help! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 03:04:36 -0400 Reply-To: HMCMURRA@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! substitute "whose" for "that's"? Heather ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:09:48 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software In-Reply-To: <199904191447.KAA14228@mag1.magmacom.com> Sounds like you are thinking more of a concordance than an index... Cordially, Yves jingting@magma.ca ---------- > > We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of hundred= s > of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts = of > the program. Users will have the ability to make their own customized > changes to some of these files whenever they want. The programmer has > asked me to see if there is some type of software tool that will > automatically index these files. > > My inital reaction is that we will have to identify keywords (create = an > index) for the software that we send to customers; then, when they upda= te > the files, they also will have to identify any keywords they want. > > --Is there any type of "smart" indexing that would automatically ident= ify > keywords? Would this work across many documents and be combined in one > big index? > > --The next question involves compiling these index entries. If the use= r > adds to or makes changes to index entries in a file, is there a way to > save these index entries to a main index immediately? > > I think what the programmer has in mind is some type of software that > would "lurk" in the background and "detect" when the user adds to or > changes some index entries and then add those to the main index. He is > looking for some "batch" processing because he doesn't want the user = to > sit through compiling hundreds of files each time they save some change= s. > But if a major compile had to occur at the end of the day or > automatically at night, this would be OK. > > --Would the user need to purchase the indexing software and what costs > would be involved? > > If needed, I can provide more details off-line. Thanks for any insights > on this! > > Marj Borchard > mab@roisysinc.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:00:44 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: atypical indexing jobs (was: job opportunity) In-Reply-To: This ad really interests me, as it seems to be a different sort of employment environment for an indexer. I'd be interested to hear from indexers who have done work in corporate environments or the like. Glenda. > Information Services Opportunities > > Towers Perrin, an international human resources consulting firm located > in Valhalla, NY has the following information services opportunity: > > INDEXER to classify the firm=92s intellectual capital and build and > maintain the electronic thesaurus. Must have: 2+ yrs experience > indexing/abstracting business materials, familiarity with on-line search > methods, etc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:40:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: atypical indexing jobs (was: job opportunity) Glenda's message: This ad really interests me, as it seems to be a different sort of employment environment for an indexer. I'd be interested to hear from indexers who have done work in corporate environments or the like. > Information Services Opportunities > Towers Perrin, an international human resources consulting firm located in Valhalla, NY has the following information services opportunity: > INDEXER to classify the firm=92s intellectual capital and build and > maintain the electronic thesaurus. Must have: 2+ yrs experience > indexing/abstracting business materials, familiarity with on-line search > methods, etc Actually, this is fairly typical for in-house/corporate indexing. I worked as a corporate indexer/abstractor for several years. We had an on-line database we indexed, CD-ROM products and print indexes, and a corporate name, proper name and subject thesaurus covering everything. I worked on a select group of journals, periodicals government reports and monographs for a specific area (South Asia and the Middle East). The diversity of material kept me from going crazy. For a while I worked in an office environment with supervisory duties, etc. and later I worked from my home office sending my work in on disks (this was pre-email). This was closest to what many free-lancers experience. Currently, I work in a government environment where I maintain the index for a database along with its thesaurus, as well as an annual back of the book index. My current work is strictly legislation with the odd index for in-house reports. The pros of the corporate environment are a set salary/benefits and, if you're lucky, good people to work with. The cons are less freedom and the possibility of working with some abrasive personalities (if not sometimes hostile). Also in the corporate/government there are often many duties outside of indexing. Often these organizations can't justify full-time indexers so they lump it together with something else. In my case this is Librarian. I have to say I like the corporate/government somewhat better than working from home. Brian M. Peck Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:58:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information, Inc. Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! DStaub11@aol.com wrote: > > << Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an > application that's memory activities cause other applications to > fail? >> > > I would substitute "whose" for "that's." > > Good for you for asking for help! It was one of those moments that I hate, and that are, sadly, becoming more frequent as I get older (just turned 40 last month (I know, I know, that's not OLD, but I have been noticing changes in mental agility and speed for the last couple of years)) when I simply blank on something simple, and then get stuck on that thing. Like forgetting the name of a person I've known forever, or remembering a fragment of conversation clearly and accurately, almost hearing it replayed verbatim in my mind, and being completely unable to attach a face or a name to the speaker. I *really* hate that one. Big stuff, no problem. Holding an index in my mind as I work through a book--no problem. Juggling two or three projects on two different computers, all with the same due date, whilst listening to the workmen just outside my office window replacing the roof on the house and carport--no problem. Remembering to put dinner in at 4:30, and take the wash out at 3:30--got it covered. Remembering to pick up my sweetie at 5:00--I'm there. Resetting the VCR to record Matlock at noon because the power glitched in the night--piece of cake. But suddenly, in the midst of all this sparkling efficiency and concentration, a glaring grammatical error caught my eye and my mind (at least it caught, thank goodness), and froze there, like the proverbial deer in the headlights. I must have re-read that sentence 30 times, saying, "It's wrong, that's obvious. Painfully wrong, at that. Couldn't be more wrong, in fact. I'll just fix it up by... um, it's the "that's," right? Yes, the word "that's" is clearly wrong, because, ummm. Well, it just doesn't belong there, that's why! It should be, ummm... something else... or maybe just somewhere else. Let me read it again. Do they mean possessive, as in the memory belonging to "that?" Well, maybe. Would that construction be ok? Well, maybe. Oh surely not. But I can't use "whose." Or can I? Or do they mean "that is" or "that has" or "that was?" What the hell is this sentence trying to say, anyway? Is it ok the way it is? Maybe I could ask someone...." And thus my post to INDEX-L, which was answered by so many kind folks out there, none of whom said, "Are you nuts? You're actually asking people to pay you money to proofread their important computer books, and you don't know what's wrong with this construction? I'm putting your name on a list, young lady. No more referrals, you're clearly incompetent." No, everyone was very kind, and offered excellent suggestions, and I appreciate the support more than I can say. Thanks so much. Regards, Ann (I know the answer as well as I know my own name) -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:20:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "MAB (Borchard, Marj)" Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software Yves - Thanks for your reply. I've heard of concordances before, but do you know of any Web sites that might explain their use or listings of software that handles them? Marj Borchard mab@roisysinc.com > -----Original Message----- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:09 PM To: mab; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Sounds like you are thinking more of a concordance than an index... Cordially, Yves jingting@magma.ca ---------- > > We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of hundreds > of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts that would automatically ident= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:39:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: E-mailing indexes In-Reply-To: <199904210116.rhqnp4.7pk.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> Don't save it as ASCII. Save it as a .wpd file, the normal way. When you send it to yourself, choose the MIME format if you have it available. If you get a warning to either open it or save it to disk, save it to disk. Try that and see if it works... Jan Wright At 10:09 PM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >I have been sending my indexes mostly in the old-fashioned way - by UPS. >But given the discussion about e-mailing indexes I have tried to send myself >a sample. Results have not been successful so far.... I attached an index >in the form of an ASCII file and e-mailed it to myself. I then tried to >open the received attachment. >Got an "open attachment warning" with two options: > -- Open it > -- Save it to disk >I selected the first option, and got a message: "This file does not have a >program associated with it for performing this action. Create an >association in My Computer by clicking View then clicking Options." > >I went there - the options were: FOLDER, VIEW and FILE TYPE. Nothing looked >likely in the first, the second had to do with hidden files, and each time I >went to the third I got a message "Program Caused illegal option and will >be shut down." I found a way around this finally - by going straight to >the File Type option without looking at "View." Unless it's "Add new file >type" I can't see what they are suggesting. Nor is it obvious to me which >file type to add.... > >So, then trying the "Save it to disk" option, I saved it to a .wpd file and >looked at it using my word processor. I could see it, alright, but the text >was blurred. And it eliminated the double-spacing between one pair of lines >on each page. > >I have been able to open attachments sent to me by other people - what am I >doing wrong here? > > ---- Breffni =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:41:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software In-Reply-To: <199904210926.rhrkfd.b38.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> Sonar Bookends is one concordance builder. Sorry, don't have time this morning to look them up on the web. Jan Wright At 08:20 AM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >Yves - Thanks for your reply. I've heard of concordances before, but do >you know of any Web sites that might explain their use or listings of >software that handles them? > > >Marj Borchard >mab@roisysinc.com > >> > -----Original Message----- >From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= >[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] >Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:09 PM >To: mab; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >Sounds like you are thinking more of a concordance >than an index... > >Cordially, > >Yves >jingting@magma.ca > ---------- >> >> We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of >hundreds >> of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts > that would automatically ident= =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:51:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Maori names Hello all, I am hoping that someone familiar with Maori names can help me out here. I am indexing a book about Maori renewal movements. I have two questions: 1) With the the following names, I can't be sure whether ot not they need to be inverted for correct alphabetization: Anaru Matete Eria Raukura Huri Te Ao Matene Te Whiwhi Matiaha Tiramorehu Ngakoku Pera Rikirangi Hohepa Rongo Whakaata Ropata Wahawaha Wi Pere Wiremu Nera Wi Tako Any help you can give me with this would be greatly appreciated! 2) The other issue is the use of "Te" before certain names, like Te Ua Haumene and Te Rangihiroa. According to one source, the "Te" is ignored in sorting, but in the bibliography, the author has arranged the names by "Te..." It also looks like LC alphabetizes the "Te" first, so that is my answer, I guess. Thanks. Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:58:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ellen Brink Organization: uakron.edu Subject: Cindex question Hello, While I was editing my index I noticed that I had two entries that were not consolidated. Marriage: ceremonies, 8-9,19 Marriage, 16-17 When I tried to consolidate nothing happened to these two -- all others in the same format were fine. I tried deleting and then re-entering one of them. This time when I attempted to consolidate, one of them disappeared completely. Can someone tell me what's going on here? Ellen Brink bellen1@uakron.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:05:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Cindex question On 4/21/1999 8:58 AM Ellen Brink wrote (in part): >While I was editing my index I noticed that I had two entries that were >not consolidated. > >Marriage: ceremonies, 8-9,19 > >Marriage, 16-17 > >When I tried to consolidate nothing happened to these two -- all others >in the same format were fine. I tried deleting and then re-entering one >of them. This time when I attempted to consolidate, one of them >disappeared completely. Can someone tell me what's going on here? One possibility is that the two entries are not exactly the same. For instance, if you have specified that main headings all begin with capital letters, and then entered marriage in one instance and Marriage in another, Cindex would treat them as separate entries. No idea about the disappearing entry. hth, Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www.i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:08:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! At 06:00 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, All - > >My brain is fried; I'm proofreading and indexing a book (as well >as finishing up two other indexes) and I suddenly came across >this awkward sentence... that I have no idea how to fix. Oh yes, >and UPS is coming at 7:00 pm to pick up the completed >proofreading. > >Please edit this sentence for me. It's the "that's" that froze my >brain in this sentence. I think it's wrong, but can't seem to >fix it. Sheesh! > >Which event should be selected to monitor your system for an >application that's memory activities cause other applications to >fail? > >Or maybe it's ok as is? > >Ann >-- >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information, Inc. >mailto:norcross@ipass.net > > Which event should you select to monitor your system for an application that causes other applications' memories to fail? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Cindex question What version of CINDEX do you have? Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:43:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software "Jan C. Wright" wrote: > > Sonar Bookends is one concordance builder. Another, apparently for web sites, is the sadly misnamed WWW Index Wizard from bMAD Computing. Their "read me" file lists this URL: http://bmad.pair.com/w3iw/faq.html I stress that WWWiw *does not* create what any indexer would consider an index. Generating concordances is a simple task for computer software, and this program appears to do it as well as any other. I also assure you I have *no* connection with WWWiw or its developers. When it comes to indexing, my loyalties lie elsewhere. :) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:52:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Maori names ""Te" is the Polynesian definite article -- "the" -- so do not count it in alphabetization. Many names begin with it" - From ^People's Names^ by Holly Ingram. Then I looked through the sections on female and male names for each first and last name you gave and only found one "Rikirangi Hohepa" where Hohepa was a male name - but I wouldn't made any global decisions on that. Sorry but this didn't seem to be much help. Julie Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:57:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "MAB (Borchard, Marj)" Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software Thanks - I'll try to search for them on the Web. Marj B. -----Original Message----- From: Jan C. Wright [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 6:41 AM To: mab; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Sonar Bookends is one concordance builder. Sorry, don't have time this morning to look them up on the web. Jan Wright At 08:20 AM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >Yves - Thanks for your reply. I've heard of concordances before, but do >you know of any Web sites that might explain their use or listings of >software that handles them? > > >Marj Borchard >mab@roisysinc.com > >> > -----Original Message----- >From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= >[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] >Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:09 PM >To: mab; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >Sounds like you are thinking more of a concordance >than an index... > >Cordially, > >Yves >jingting@magma.ca > ---------- >> >> We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of >hundreds >> of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts > that would automatically ident= =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software Sonar Bookends: http://www.virginiasystems.com/bkwin95.html John Sullivan Stratus Computer > -----Original Message----- > From: MAB (Borchard, Marj) [SMTP:mab@ROISYSINC.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 3:57 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software > > Thanks - I'll try to search for them on the Web. Marj B. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jan C. Wright [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 6:41 AM > To: mab; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > Sonar Bookends is one concordance builder. Sorry, don't have time this > morning to look them up on the web. > > Jan Wright > > At 08:20 AM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Yves - Thanks for your reply. I've heard of concordances before, but do > >you know of any Web sites that might explain their use or listings of > >software that handles them? > > > > > >Marj Borchard > >mab@roisysinc.com > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= > >[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] > >Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:09 PM > >To: mab; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > >Subject: Re: Looking for "automatic" indexing software > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > > >Sounds like you are thinking more of a concordance > >than an index... > > > >Cordially, > > > >Yves > >jingting@magma.ca > > ---------- > >> > >> We are writing software that includes the automatic assembly of > >hundreds > >> of .rtf files (or maybe .txt files or Word docs) from various parts > > that would automatically ident= > > > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > Wright Information Indexing Services > http://www.wrightinformation.com > Jancw@wrightinformation.com > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:55:02 EDT Reply-To: Anntrue@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! Ann, Join the club. I'm 55. I am attached to my daytimer by an umbilical cord. I have timers all over the place to remind me to take the roast out of the oven, leave on time for that appointment, turn off the water sprinkler in the garden, etc. I'm OK if I can just remember what the @#$&** timer was set *for* when it goes off. ;-D Seriously, I have never had any sense of time when I get focused on something. But the weird little glitches just keep getting worse. The only good thing I have figured out is that the info *is* in there somewhere, and if I just go on to something else, or take a break, often the access pathway is open again when I come back to it, and I can retrieve the erstwhile info once again. They say your brain works differently as you get older, but they will never convince me that it works *better*. I think mine is like an attic in an old house which has never been cleaned out. Ann Truesdale > Big stuff, no problem. Holding an index in my mind as I work > through a book--no problem. Juggling two or three projects on > two different computers, all with the same due date, whilst > listening to the workmen just outside my office window replacing > the roof on the house and carport--no problem. Remembering to > put dinner in at 4:30, and take the wash out at 3:30--got it > covered. Remembering to pick up my sweetie at 5:00--I'm there. > Resetting the VCR to record Matlock at noon because the power > glitched in the night--piece of cake. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:25:30 -0700 Reply-To: Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny McLaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Cindex question This has happened to me when I have put subheadings into page-order sort rather than alphabetical. Is that what you're doing? I have never figured out any solution other than to type in the page numbers and comma as part of the main entry and carry it throughout the subentries. Thus Marriage, 16-17 (typed in main entry of first subheading) ceremonies, 8-9,19 Hope this makes sense. Bonny McLaughlin Ellen Brink wrote: > Hello, > > While I was editing my index I noticed that I had two entries that were > not consolidated. > > Marriage: ceremonies, 8-9,19 > > Marriage, 16-17 > > When I tried to consolidate nothing happened to these two -- all others > in the same format were fine. I tried deleting and then re-entering one > of them. This time when I attempted to consolidate, one of them > disappeared completely. Can someone tell me what's going on here? > > Ellen Brink > bellen1@uakron.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:30:21 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Need quick, brief answer to stupud question! Take heart, Ann. A full attic is preferable by far to an empty one. >They say your brain works differently as you get older, but they >will never convince me that it works *better*. I think mine is like an attic >in an old house which has never been cleaned out. > >Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:16:25 EDT Reply-To: ROBJRICH@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Attics Full & Empty Anntrue et al - Well, you've touched a responsive chord. Come to think of it, I haven't a clue as to what a "responsive chord" is. Lost chord, OK. But responsive? I have the image of fooling around at the keyboard, playing a chord, and a faint voice says "Oooh, I Liked that! Do it again!" Or, conversely, the voice says, peevishly, "Sorry. I can't respond to that. I'm just not in a minor seventh mood today...." But back to attics: My Cranial Attic is getting pretty full. In fact, I have had to evict the bats in my belfry to make room for more unwanted but apparently inescapable trivia. "OK, you guys!" I said, "Go hang head down in some other attic! I need the space!" And so off they went and before I could say good-bye, those precious few square inches of attic wall were hidden behind a new carton of Certified Mental Clutter. And once stored in, as Wodehouse would say, the old CA, most of these trivia never go away. Even when I wish I could forget them, they seem to be instantly retrievable and utterly indestructible. Not the Important Things. Oh no! The Really Important Things (such as family birthdays) seem to elude me, and go bounding off into the thickets and hide. But the true trivia is forever. For example, about thirty years ago I noted that the letters OBI stand, not for a Japanese costume, but for Open Bed Inclinable, a type of large sheet-metal press. I never have needed to know that, not even at the time. It is not useful for cadging drinks at a bar, or impressing that dynamite lady at the next table: "Pardon me, miss. Did you know that OBI stands for Open bed Inclinable?" "Oh, no, I didn't, you silver-tongued devil! That is fascinating. Tell me more...." But, of course, I can't forget it. That and the googolplex of other disconnected irrelevancies that have taken up permanent residence in the Cranial Attic. You can talk about HTML and web indexing. Bah! Child's play! Can't even begin to compare with the Galaxy-class random retrieval system that, usually at odd times, brings to my awareness a kaleidoscope of unbidden recollections. Very much like some hyperactive kitty laying mouse after mouse at my feet! Oh, yes, I know about Meditation. Stilling the inner voices. Centering. Single-point attention. Following the blue pearl. Uh-huh. Been there, done that. Works, too. For a while. But then that damned cat drags in the fact that the B-17G had a chin turret and I wonder "Where did you get that?" I often wish that there were some way, short of lobotomy, to perform Memory Triage. Sounds so simple. Just make three piles: Stuff that is really important (whatever that means), stuff that you want to retain for a while longer, and the useless bits of obsolete, fragmented memories that should be swept away. Then, to use a computer metaphor, simply defrag the disk and get everything of apple-pie order. By the way, what is an orderly apple pie? Now, if you're still with me, let me tell you about a real attic. Many years ago, when I was young and very cocky, I bought a large Victorian house in a small Massachusetts town. The house had been, some years before (but not just prior to my buying it) a funeral home. Believe me, that is something that I never would do again! It was distinctly eerie to have neighbors visit and tell us that the last time they had been in the living room was at dear old Aunt Martha's wake! The house was quite large, and at one time must have been a very Elegant Establishment. I probably was seduced by the large circular driveway on one side and the equally large two-car garage, all of which had been designed for the convenience of the hearses. Clearly if a large single garage is good, a large double garage with a circular driveway is, as Orwell would say, Doubleplusgood ! The house had a slate Mansard roof. It also once had sported a cupola, but that structure was gone when I bought it. But the stairs in the attic leading to the cupola, and the platform that was the floor of the cupola, still remained. "What?", you say, "Stairs in the attic leading Up?" Yup. Aside from the fact that slate Mansard roofs are, today, almost unrepairable because a) you can't find a slater and b) because if you can find one you probably can't afford him, these attics are, to coin a phrase, Sumpin' Else Again! I could stand in the attic, holding up a broom by the end of the handle, and not come close to touching the top. The attic had been divided into small servants' rooms, but it was huge! Now, the erstwhile funeral director evidently had offended (presumably) the living, because we were told that one day he had been found in a field with a series of tire tracks across his body. At the time, nobody seemed to think that this was a psychic manifestation. He also drank heavily, and it was his custom to climb the steps to the cupola, carrying a supply of booze, close the trapdoor on the cupola floor, and ... well ... you know the rest. After we bought the place we examined the attic. That might be another example of regretting at leisure what is done in haste. Piled against the inside wall we found groups of dusty, lugubrious, framed pictures, all appropriate for an old funeral home. The subjects ran heavily to weeping angels, sad cherubim, and my favorite, a large rock-hewn cross set in stormy surf, to which clung a diaphanously-draped lady bent in grief. "Touching" doesn't begin to do justice to that work of art! I wish that I still had it.... But the piece de resistance of all of this, the little touch that so movingly summed up the ambiance of that cavernous attic, we discovered a bit later. To appreciate this you must understand that old houses, really old 19th-century houses, used two-by-fours that really measured a full 2" x 4". So between the outside and inside walls of the house there was an air space that was four inches wide. And placed carefully in this wall space, running almost entirely around the perimeter of that very large attic, was a row of empty wine bottles standing shoulder-to-shoulder! Ah! Those were the days! Best wishes, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:42:07 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Maori names It's been a long time since I lived in New Zealand, and until a New Zealand indexer kicks in on this query, I can give limited help. I think all of the names on your list should be inverted, as they all look like first and last names, in that order, to me. For example, the names Anaru and Wiremu are Maori versions of Andrew and William, respectively, and I recognize some of the last names in your list. As for how to treat last names beginning with Te, I would be guided by the usage in the bibliography and LC--come to think of it, I follow both for guidance with any names that present problems with order, as I'm sure many of us do. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 Canada phone 506-870-1113 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:26:13 EDT Reply-To: KArrigoni2@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KArrigoni2@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing speed increase over time? My indexing speed has increased a lot over the years. I can't give exact figures either, but it increased the most when I started using Cindex. Karin Arrigoni ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:26:41 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Attics, Full & Otherwise Thank you, Bob, Ann, et al .... I thought I was the only one having these recall problems (both too much and too little, as the case may be). Glad to see it's not my Fatal Flaw, but a problem of Humanity at Large. Or, as I often say .... I NEED MORE RAM, MORE MEMORY! So many factoids, so little .... memory! Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:37:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: "jobs from the web" summary Eleven people responded. Besides current information, I got some referrals to previous such discussions in the index-l archives. A similar survey done about 4 years ago and the results indicated -- as here -- that websites are more useful for closing business than generating leads. Note that this was a very rough survey. I didn't ask these specific questions, but invited people to tell me how their website contributes to their business. If anyone would like to discuss any of the points made below, please do so ... IMHO it would be interesting. These topics have been discussed here before, but the answers are IMHO a constantly moving target. How does your website help you get business? ... Clients read the website and then make contact: 2 (one respondant reported one such contact; the other reported six.) ... The website is useful as promotional material after first contact: 6 (This includes: The website is a convenient brochure or resume; Having a website adds credibility to my business image; Other personal info on my website helps in building rapport with client.) How do you pay for your website? ... It's bundled with my email & other ISP services: 2 ... I use a free commercial host (bcity.com): 1 How much yearly business volume can you attribute to your website? Anywhere from 0 to US$5000 Clients find my site via ... ... Search engines 1 ... URL published in print media (news, journal articles, listings) 2 ... My business cards or previous conversation with the client 3 === RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:55:05 +0800 Reply-To: Ling Heang Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ling Heang Subject: Human vs robotic indexer ** Recently I asked Alan Walker (President of AusSI) and Dwight Walker (past webmaster of AusSI) (Alan informed me that they are not related) about the perception of indexers and robotic indexers. I would like to share with you our views regarding this issue. Alan Walker and Dwight Walker's reply to my query is highlighted under our first names. Ling: I have been deeply concerned about the perception of indexer as it is assumed as the same as robotic indexer when talking to some members of the metadata community who have no indexing background. This was highlighted when I attended a metadata workshop last November. The instructor kept using the term 'indexer' as in robotic index machine. When I questioned and explained to him about the differences to him, he couldn't see the distinctions. Alan: We do have problems here. So much of the language which is used by indexers (and librarians and editors) is given new meanings by IT people. For instance, the HTML people use ".index" to identify the opening page on a website, which is not (usually) and index, but more like a menu or table of contents (if you're lucky). I recently came across a similar use of the "indexer" to the one you mention. Something called the Thunderstone Automated Categorization Enginewas described as follows: "This application works with the Webinator indexer to add pages to categories automatically." Clearly "the Webinator indexer" is not a person. Dwight: Yes they are from an IT background so assume an index is computer generated like in full text searching. This is OK for very large databases. I am working on a compromise solution. You design the search engine indexing from the top - the indexer chooses what pages or Web sites go into the search engine's input. You can't index by concept for 1000s of pages. However you can help engineer the search engine so it is not so 'dumb' and indexing is better 'guided' rather than just brute force like with IT type work. Do you understand my view? Ling: Can you help me with this issue? I am sure no indexers would like to be assumed as robotic! Alan: Well, we can't stop language changing, but at least we can try to market ourselves better and advertise the existence of real indexers. AusSI is trying to do this with our "Guide to Indexing Services" which we'll be publishing later in the year, and with our "Indexers Available", soon to be on the website, which we'll be publicizing among publishers and other potential employers. How we reach the IT people is more difficult. I don't know if you're an Index-L subscriber, but if so you will have seen the recent thread about "cybersillies" (those irrationally enthalled by computers). Somebody wrote: >One thing about cybersillies that I've noticed is that ... they don't understand how things were done before computers. Thus a cybersilly might say to me: "check this software out that > does xyz!! (replacing some long-established art that's millenniums old) > Isn't that great". To which I might reply, "Oh that's certainly elegant but > the computer-implemented solution is only half as good as the > non-computer-implemented solution, and in addition intoduces several subtle > problems not seen in the long-established art (non-computer) solution". To > which the cybersilly simply repeats his first sentence, but this time louder > as if the problem is with me and perhaps if he just spoke up, you know as if > I was hearing-impaired, I would appreciate what a great advance for human > society it is to be able to do this by computer. Dwight: It is curly. I am working on using automation to assist concept indexing. Just remember IT people are very narrow in their view of data. They have no information science background. They assume all information can be digested using statistical analysis - I have just read about the Digital Library Initiative in USA and they are just using bigger and bigger number crunching algorithms to try and simulate the human brain filtering information into categories. Can you see the chasm here? IT people only see data and ways to store and manipulate it. We see information with relationships and concepts. Unfortunately the two fields are way apart. I am in the middle and can see both people's viewpoint. Just point that there is another view to indexing, not just robotic. I guess this why AusSI is on the cutting edge with my help. We have a kind of interdisciplinary area here that most IT people are completely ignorant of. If I hadn't done a diploma in librarianship I would only think of robotic indexing too. Not now that I have studies information retrieval systems. Many thanks to Alan and Dwight's contribution. Fruits for thought for everyone.... I posted the message in ALIA-Index but didn't receive any response. Your feedback is most welcome. Cheers Ling ================================ Ling Heang Indexer Kondinin Group PO Box 913 Cloverdale WA 6105 Australia Tel: 08-9478 3343 / Fax: 08-9478 3353 http://www.kondinin.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura R Rustin Subject: Re: Attics, Full & Otherwise In-Reply-To: <199904220126.UAA29798@freebird.ghofn.org> All, I often say that if I could delete all of the old rock and roll lyrics from my brain I could then remember where I put my eyeglasses every morning when I take my shower. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:33:29 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Per Entry Rate Hi everyone, I have 2 questions regarding entry rate. 1.....what do you do when the client *only* wants to work with you on the basis of entry rate? Personally, I hate entry rate method. But sometimes you do not have a choice. One editor of my most favorite client works with me on page rate basis. The *other* editor from the *same* publisher wants to work with me on the basis of entry *only*. Yesterday the 2nd editor called me to give me a project and asked for entry rate. When I told him that I work with editor #1 on page rate basis, he said that he likes only entry rate sytem. I was surprised to find out that the 2 editors at the same publishing house are using 2 different methods. Needless to say, I did not want to lose 800 pages book project.I quoted my entry rate and got the project. But I still do not like this method. 2....when you index on the basis of entry rate method, do you count *main entries* also in the final count? For example....... Diphtheria......immunization against (as sub)...22, 27, 28, 475-477 Diphtheria......prognosis for (as sub)...27-28. Are these 5 entries....or 6 entries (including main) in total? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com