Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9904B" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:30:49 +0800 Reply-To: Ling Heang Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ling Heang Subject: Re: ACCESS INDEX PROGRAM In-Reply-To: <19990407213325.301ae4fb.in@kondinin.com.au> I have used MSAcess for indexing for 4 years. There are downsides and upsides depending on the size of your index (one-off output or mass storage in the database). The upsides the IT people love the program, the relational aspect of it and they can link it with other Microsoft products. The product is cheap to buy. However, the cost involved in programming Access is expensive. It took the IT guy at least 3 months full-time to program the software to our requirements. On top of that, we have to keep employing IT people who can program Access to keep up with upgrades and maintenance. Among the 3 IT people we have, only one has the knowledge to do so as the programming has been complex. When the particular IT person has other projects, it will take a long time to have any index programming done. This is particular difficult when we need to add more fields or some major changes because the program is linked to a series of inquiry interfaces and results. When the database grew, the speed has gone a lot more slower. It's extremely frustrated at times. We didn't have a choice or say in the selection of software when the project first started. 4 years down the track, we have decided to change to a software that does not programmers and support is available from the producer. I am a lot more comfortable now where I have control over the changes over the software. Regards, Ling --------------------------------------- Ling Heang Indexer Kondinin Group PO Box 913 Cloverdale WA 6105 Australia http://www.kondinin.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] On Behalf Of Ardith B. Ayotte, RT Sent: Wednesday, 7 April 1999 1:59 To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: ACCESS INDEX PROGRAM Dear Indexers, Have any of you heard of or even used "Access" for indexing? I heard of it inadvertently and wonder if folks think it is as good as an indexer's work? Ardith Ayotte, RT ABBA Index Services Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:19:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ted Neveln (Write Stuff)" Subject: Re: ACCESS INDEX PROGRAM I use Access and Excel a lot on my job and find it very useful but that's because there are whole teams of programmers and administrators upstream from me to make it friendly. Even to get Excel to do flips requires the writing of special macros. I suppose Access could also do it but I simply import back and forth. Even so I would never consider either for use at home. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:07:28 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Help for indexing religious names and other questions Dear Manjit, I have a lot of experience indexing for religious presses. Here are my suggestions: Manjit Sahai wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Today I received a manuscript for a book on Prison Ministry written > by a nun. She is the main author of the book and the book is also > written by another author. The book is about nun's personal > experiences she had with prison inmates while she was providing > counseling and prayer services to them. The book is a sort of memoir. > > This book has lots of names of 'Sisters'. This is my first book where > I have to index names and obviously I am not enjoying them. Moreover > the book is also very boring. Obviouly I want some help for indexing > those names. So my question are... > > 1...should the title 'Sister' be mentioned in the index? For > example... > > Kittleson, Sister Renee....or......Kittleson, Renee Yes, always use the religious title: Bishop, Father, Abbot, Sister, Reverend etc. > > > Which entry is correct? I did not get much information from Chicago > manual unless I am looking in the wrong section. > > Only in the first chapter this Sister Kittleson is mentioned with her > full name. In the rest of the book she is mentioned as 'Sister Renee' > only. so my question is... > > 2...should I make an entry under the full name and cross reference > Sister Renee to the full name entry? > > 3...the 2nd author of the book is referring to the main author (the > nun) as 'Sister Josephine'throughout the book. Should I create an > entry under 'Sister Josephine' and cross reference it to the full > name entry under "Migliore, Sister Josephine? In my opinion, the nun > does deserve its own main entry and her experiences with various > inmates as sub entries. I would make these entries: If the text goes back and forth between using Sister Josephine and Sister Migliore but uses Sister Josephine more often: Migliore, Sister Josephine. See Josephine (Migliore), Sister If the text only mentions Sister Migliore once and then uses Sister Josephine exclusively afterwards: Migliore, Sister Josephine. See Josephine, Sister The main entry for Sister Josephine would be written as follows: Josephine, Sister > > > 4...there is one name which is mentioned in the book throughout as > 'Sister Innocent'. How should I index this name? > As: Innocent, Sister Even though this is a religious order name which this sister has chosen it is still her name and should not be indexed as "Sister Innocent" anymore than you would index Pope John (for example) under "Pope." > 5...the last question is about the letters of the inmates. In *each* > chapter, there are 2-3 *long* letters written to the nun from > different prison inmates. In these lettes, they are thanking the nun > for improving their life through prayers, counseling and her > kindness. Should these letters be indexed under each 'chapter' > heading? For example..... > > death row....letters from inmates on (as sub) > substance abuse program...letters from inmates on (as sub) They would probably be just fine as subentries. But I would also create a main entry for them like: prison inmate letters, or letters from inmates, And I would also do a cross reference from the nun's name over to whatever entry you've chosen to place the inmate letters under. > > > BTW, I can't use the names of the inmates in the sub entry as the > book gives only the first name of the inmates in order to protect > their privacy. I never realized that inmates have their privacy too. > . Actually it would be very useful to include the inmates in the index even using only their first names. This is often the case with case studies in psychology or social work books. Depending upon the text you could index the prisoner names as: John (substance abuse prisoner) or John (prison inmate) or just use the name alone John You could also cite references to their letters to the nun under their name entries. > > > I would appreciate a QUICK reply on these questions as I just have 3 > days to do this boring index. Thanks in advance. Good luck with your project! Best, Sylvia Coates > > > Manjit K. Sahai > RAM Indexing Services > > like 'death ro > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:33:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith W. Kip" Subject: Off topic question -- proofreading rates Can anyone help me off-list with acceptable rates for proofreading? I ha= ve been asked to do "library market" books at the starting rate of $10 an hour. Sounds really low to me. Can anyone shed some light on current rates? Thanks. Judy Kip JudithKip@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:10:04 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Circular Cross-references Hello - have lost the reference to the famous circular cross-reference joke, which I thought was in Knight: chase, wild goose, see Kluck, von goose chase, wild, see von Kluck Kluck, von, see von Kluck von Kluck, see Kluck, von wild goose chase, see Kluck, von I would welcome any info on this. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:10:04 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Mail traffic jams There was a 24-hour period here with no messages from Index-L or the Cindex-user list. Then there were about 50 messages from Index-L. Nothing yet from the Cindex list. I think the holiday period is when computers on the Internet take an opportunity to go wrong. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Authors and titles I have an entry for a book co-written by two authors who have the same last name. My entries look like this : *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* (Glueck and Glueck) 51 Glueck, Eleanor T.: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 Glueck, Sheldon: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 I don't like the way this looks, even if it is right. I'm wondering whether or not it is permissible to conflate the Gluecks: Glueck, Eleanor T. and Sheldon: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 Unlike the politicians in DC, I don't think the Gluecks will be scanning the index to see if their names are on separate lines. I think it would look even worse to enter: Glueck, Eleanor T.: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* (with Sheldon Glueck) Gleuck, Sheldon: *One Thousand...* (with Eleanor T. Glueck) My problem is mostly with the way it LOOKS, since the names are right next to each other. If it were Smith and Jones, the answer would be easy enough. The authors and their book appear on only one page although they are dicussed at length on that page. Any ideas? Paula C. Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:37:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Circular? Was migration terms. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19990405163220.4c4f68ca@pop.electriciti.com> >Seriously. I thought a circular See entry would be > >Staub. See Do Mi > >Do Mi. See Staub I thought that was a blind entry. Have I got my terms all scwewy? R Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:19:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Qualifying names/Titles In-Reply-To: <199904071433.rgn98f.p02.37kbi14.1@mx6.mindspring.com> At 11:30 AM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Sounds like you're definitely having fun... It's an eye-opening experience. Term selection is particularly problematic. There are far fewer headings than one finds in computer books and therefore fewer clues as to the "aboutness" of the discussion. In a section about budget negotiations, there is one sentence: "The [budget meeting] agenda included saving social security, reducing average class size, modernizing schools, establishing a patient's bill of rights, enabling people 62 to 65 to buy into Medicare, and raising minimum wage." None of those topics is mentioned in any greater detail, so I categorize them as passing mention. But the whole page is full of similar unelaborated details. I keep waffling between wanting to create 20 entries for the page and creating 1 entry for the page. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:59:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Bishop Subject: Re: AOL PROBS>>>Reply This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE810F.AAE6D660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thelda; We, too, have been experiencing log-on and interrupted = internet service problems. We have AT&T as our ISP....I get prompts from my computer = that tell me AT&T cannot verify my account, my credit card acct. cannot = be found, cannot locate my server, my modem doesn't respond,etc.etc. From March 31st thru April 4th, we received no e/m's from the = INDEX-list. That occured again yesterday. Have you or anyone else "blank" days??? Charles ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE810F.AAE6D660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thelda;
           = We, too,=20 have been experiencing log-on and interrupted internet service=20 problems.
           We = have=20 AT&T as our ISP....I get prompts from my computer that tell me = AT&T=20 cannot verify my account, my credit card acct. cannot be found, cannot = locate my=20 server, my modem doesn't respond,etc.etc.
           = From March=20 31st thru April 4th, we received no e/m's from the INDEX-list. That = occured=20 again yesterday.
          &nbs= p; Have=20 you or anyone else "blank" days???
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;      =20 Charles
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE810F.AAE6D660-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:58:37 -0700 Reply-To: Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny McLaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: [Fwd: Profile of Hans Wellisch] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5472F1BBDE9C3DEF86F5400C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------5472F1BBDE9C3DEF86F5400C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from dns1.mcn.org ([204.189.12.26]) by mail.cgu.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA265B for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:19:15 -0700 Received: from vbaker (ha-1e-pw-m078.mcn.org [209.209.31.211]) by dns1.mcn.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA21161 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990405141956.00820750@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: vbaker@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:19:56 -0700 To: Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Profile of Hans Wellisch In-Reply-To: <199904052115.OAA20551@dns1.mcn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For everyone's information, we are going to reprint this article in KEY WORDS. --Victoria At 02:17 PM 4/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >A nice profile of Hans Wellisch by Hazel Bell appears in the July 1998 >(just received) issue of Journal of Scholarly Publishing: "Personalities >in Publishing: Hans Wellisch" > > --------------5472F1BBDE9C3DEF86F5400C-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:44:25 -0700 Reply-To: "David K. Ream" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc. Subject: Re: ACCESS INDEX PROGRAM Au contraire, Access is very robust and has rarely crashed for me. I actually develop in-house and product applications in Access for publishers who use it across a network. But still dedicated software is better for all but database indexing situations. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Wright, Sharon F. To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 12:00 PM Subject: Re: ACCESS INDEX PROGRAM > I've used Access as a database program and am familiar with its > capabilities, but I would not want to use it as an indexing program. > Frankly, if I had to use something other than dedicated software, I think > I'd prefer Excel. Access is a very limited database program-- it's meant > for small, desktop databases-- and it has more bugs than a bait shop. The > slowness and tendency to crash at random, unpredictable moments are only > some of the more frustrating features. > > I suppose you could design a database that would work as a simple index, but > I wouldn't want to have to do it. > > -- Sharon W. > Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:36:14 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: ACCESS INDEX PROGRAM In-Reply-To: <199904071922.PAA14472@mx02.erols.com> Access includes the Visual Basic for Applications programming language and as such could be programmed to do anything that a dedicated indexing program can do. However, programming Access to include the functionality of programs like SKY Index Professional, Cindex or Macrex, would take every bit as much time as it took to program those indexing packages. It is unlikely that you'll achieve the same productivity or the same quality of output formatting with Access. At least not without years of programming. All of the above applies to Excel too. BTW, I use Access as the foundation for my Customer Management System and find it to be a wonderful database program. I've tried dBase and Lotus' database program (I think it is called Approach) and found them to either lack in functionality or in user friendliness compared to Access. I highly recommend it to anyone needing a database program. Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com, Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472, Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:02:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Circular versus blind cross-references See Hans Wellisch on page 131 of Indexing From A to Z (2nd ed.): "Even worse are 'circular' cross-references, leading the hapless user from one heading to another and back again in a ring-around-the-rosy: Iran, see Persia Persia, see Iran endless loop, see loop, endless loop endless, see endless loop" A blind cross-reference, as Wellisch states, is one where the cross-reference sends the user to a heading that does not exist: farming, see agriculture and agriculture is not there in the index. Cynthia At 05:37 PM 4/7/99 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote: >>Seriously. I thought a circular See entry would be >> >>Staub. See Do Mi >> >>Do Mi. See Staub > >I thought that was a blind entry. Have I got my terms all scwewy? > >R > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:08:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Circular Cross-references In-Reply-To: <199904081338.GAA09278@decibel.electriciti.com> It was not a joke. I have seen such errors and seriously--very seriously--posit that circular would only correctly refer to itself in a round-robin manner. I am will to be the only person holding and using this definition. The other things are just cross postings to me. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:12:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Aboutness (was Re: Qualifying names/Titles) Oh yes, aboutness, that old bugaboo. It is one of the hardest things to handle in scholarly books and others that do not have definitive section titles or in books that are poorly organized. In most scholarly books, the best strategy is to index paragraph by paragraph. In this case, given below, perhaps an entry like: budget negotiations issues/topics discussed in might be a possible choice (I am just guessing, because I know nothing about your book).=20 (You could choose either issues or topics depending upon other similar discussions in the text.) Cynthia At 05:19 PM 4/7/99 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >It's an eye-opening experience. Term selection is particularly >problematic. There are far fewer headings than one finds in computer books >and therefore fewer clues as to the "aboutness" of the discussion. > >In a section about budget negotiations, there is one sentence: > >"The [budget meeting] agenda included saving social security, reducing >average class size, modernizing schools, establishing a patient's bill of >rights, enabling people 62 to 65 to buy into Medicare, and raising minimum >wage." > >None of those topics is mentioned in any greater detail, so I categorize >them as passing mention. But the whole page is full of similar >unelaborated details. I keep waffling between wanting to create 20 entries >for the page and creating 1 entry for the page. > >Dick > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:11:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: AOL PROBLEMS In-Reply-To: <199904071609.rgnerm.8ml.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> AOL was also having problems sending and receiving files last week. It would crash if you tried to do it. They admitted there was a problem. Jan Wright At 03:59 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >I have been having a lot of trouble with AOL lately: > > Interrupting the service with no warning. > Problems with connecting. > Inferences that my modem is inadequate. > ETC. > >Has anyone else had such problems? > >Thanks. Thelda =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:26:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: AOL PROBS>>>Reply I ran into similar problems last year, just around this time of year. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is an April Fool's prankster who has figured out how to disrupt large sections of the Net in subtle ways. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net > We, too, have been experiencing log-on and interrupted = > internet service problems. > We have AT&T as our ISP....I get prompts from my computer = > that tell me AT&T cannot verify my account, my credit card acct. cannot = > be found, cannot locate my server, my modem doesn't respond,etc.etc. > From March 31st thru April 4th, we received no e/m's from the = > INDEX-list. That occured again yesterday. > Have you or anyone else "blank" days??? > Charles > > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE810F.AAE6D660 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
Thelda;
>
size=3D2>           = > We, too,=20 > have been experiencing log-on and interrupted internet service=20 > problems.
>
size=3D2>           We = > have=20 > AT&T as our ISP....I get prompts from my computer that tell me = > AT&T=20 > cannot verify my account, my credit card acct. cannot be found, cannot = > locate my=20 > server, my modem doesn't respond,etc.etc.
>
size=3D2>           = > From March=20 > 31st thru April 4th, we received no e/m's from the INDEX-list. That = > occured=20 > again yesterday.
>
size=3D2>          &nbs= > p; Have=20 > you or anyone else "blank" days???
>
size=3D2>          &nbs= > p;            = > ;            = >             &= > nbsp;      =20 > Charles
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE810F.AAE6D660-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:22:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Authors and titles Paula wrote: > I don't like the way this looks, even if it is right. I'm wondering > whether or not it is permissible to conflate the Gluecks: > > Glueck, Eleanor T. and Sheldon: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 I think it would be fine to conflate the Gluecks. I would include Sheldon's last name, though: Glueck, Eleanor T. and Sheldon Glueck: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 for the simple reason that not doing so makes them appear to be husband and wife. Since they could possibly be father and daughter, or mother and son, or even siblings or cousins, I think it's better to include both names. (Actually, I do this even when I'm certain that they are married, because I think it accords the "second" person more respect than just their first name.) OTOH, do you really need to include the title here? If you index only the name here (with the title indexed at "One",) then I would make the names separate entries. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:42:26 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Aboutness (was Re: Qualifying names/Titles) Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > > Oh yes, aboutness, that old bugaboo. It is one of the hardest things to > handle in scholarly books and others that do not have definitive section > titles or in books that are poorly organized. In most scholarly books, the > best strategy is to index paragraph by paragraph. Aboutness, thy name is the devil! This is an excellent (concrete) tip regarding how to tackle this kind of text. Thanks Cynthia. I wonder if others with more experience than I have any similar tips to share. I'd certainly enjoy general discussion about aboutness./DAC -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:16:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: more questions OK, now I'm doing an index for a book on cosmetic surgery for patients, not for professionals. The first half of the book is general discussion, no probs there, but the second half is a rundown of each procedure. Each chapter is laid out exactly the same way with sections in each, and in the same order. Most of paragraphs (after the discussion on the procedure) are identical, except for pain level. I can't obviously send the reader to the same info over and over. For example, if there could be a risk of hematoma, the paragraph is exactly the same in all procedures in which that is a risk (which is basically all of 'em). So what I want to do is this (subentries in order of appearance, not alpha-sorted): brachioplasty (armlift) procedure,1 pre-surgery instructions, 2 post-surgery instructions, 3 pain, 4 prescriptions, 5 recovery, 6 risks, 7 and again exactly like that for each one. If I sort alphabetically on those, then the reader is all over the place within the procedure: brachioplasty (armlift) pain, 4 post-surgery instructions, 3 prescriptions, 5 pre-surgery instructions, 2 procedure,1 recovery, 6 risks, 7 so I'm wondering if all my subentries should be sorted chronologically by page number instead of alphabetically. Has anyone ever done that? Is it a stupid idea? Then if there are any new things introduced, they'd get their own main entry, just the first time, or maybe something like hematoma brachioplasty facelift etc. Except that in each of those, the para on hematoma is exactly the same. There are discussions in the first half about things like hematomas, so probably I should just refer the reader to those discussions and not to the ones in each procedure, for which they could look under risks for the procedure they want and find hematoma there anyway. I'm pretty sure of how I want to handle it, but I keep thinking of different ways, so I thought I'd just ask you all how you'd do it, as you might have a better way. Afraid of looking like an idiot if the solution is something really obvious that I've missed. This is the first book I've had that is 50 percent the same info over and over. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:31:28 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Authors and titles Paula wrote: << I have an entry for a book co-written by two authors who have the same last name. My entries look like this : *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* (Glueck and Glueck) 51 Glueck, Eleanor T.: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 Glueck, Sheldon: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 >> This is interesting--what kind of book is it? I never index a title as a subhead under the authors. I would just be indexing the title as you did, with the authors' last names in parentheses, and then each author on their own. I think that conflating people just because they have the same last name is inconsistent--co-authors who had different names wouldn't be conflated. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:08:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: more questions In-Reply-To: <199904081527.IAA12194@decibel.electriciti.com> At 11:16 AM 4/8/99 -0400, Rachel wrote: > >so I'm wondering if all my subentries should be sorted chronologically by >page number instead of alphabetically. Has anyone ever done that? Is it a >stupid idea? > There is a tradition of other-than-alphabetical sorting. It's rarely my choice, but it can be perfectly acceptable. I really think this is a query for your customer. Unless it's really off-the-wall, I defer to my client's druthers. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:59:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Hunziker Subject: Re: Authors and titles DStaub11@aol.com wrote: > Paula wrote: > > << I have an entry for a book co-written by two authors who have the > same last > name. My entries look like this : > > I think that conflating people just because they have the same last > name is > inconsistent--co-authors who had different names wouldn't be > conflated. > I agree. Also, because both individuals have the same name and appear to be of different genders, one assumes they are married. They probably are, but there's always the chance that they aren't. If I knew that the authors were brother and sister or were not related, I wouldn't be as tempted to lump (though I agree that it *looks* better if you do.) /Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:18:47 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: more questions Dear Rachel, Sorting by page number order is an acceptable format. Although the only press which I know of that regularly uses it is Stanford University Press. However, I have another suggestion for you: I think that it would be better to not breakdown the individual procedures into subentries if (as they appear to be in your example) they are only over a very few page spread. If the text is able to cover each procedure in only three or four or even seven pages then index it as: brachioplasty (armlift), 1-7 and also: armlift (brachioplasty), 1-7 I would never suggest this format if the book was for professionals or a serious nursing or medical text. However, since this book is for the layman and a trade book it is perfectly acceptable to do this. Remember that the index is to be useful to the reader and for this kind of book this format serves that purpose. I would also then list the pertinent information for each procedure under these headings: pain, from brachioplasty (armlift), 4 prescriptions, during brachioplasty (armlift), 5 recovery time, for brachioplasty (armlift), 6 risks, of brachioplasty (armlift), 7 My feeling is that this format would allow the reader to very quickly access specific information without making the index look cumbersome and over indexed. Hope this helps, and good luck with your book! Best, Sylvia Coates Rachel Rice wrote: > OK, now I'm doing an index for a book on cosmetic surgery for patients, not > for professionals. The first half of the book is general discussion, no > probs there, but the second half is a rundown of each procedure. Each > chapter is laid out exactly the same way with sections in each, and in the > same order. Most of paragraphs (after the discussion on the procedure) are > identical, except for pain level. I can't obviously send the reader to the > same info over and over. For example, if there could be a risk of hematoma, > the paragraph is exactly the same in all procedures in which that is a > risk (which is basically all of 'em). > > So what I want to do is this (subentries in order of appearance, not > alpha-sorted): > > brachioplasty (armlift) > procedure,1 > pre-surgery instructions, 2 > post-surgery instructions, 3 > pain, 4 > prescriptions, 5 > recovery, 6 > risks, 7 > and again exactly like that for each one. > > If I sort alphabetically on those, then the reader is all over the place > within the procedure: > > brachioplasty (armlift) > pain, 4 > post-surgery instructions, 3 > prescriptions, 5 > pre-surgery instructions, 2 > procedure,1 > recovery, 6 > risks, 7 > > so I'm wondering if all my subentries should be sorted chronologically by > page number instead of alphabetically. Has anyone ever done that? Is it a > stupid idea? > > Then if there are any new things introduced, they'd get their own main > entry, just the first time, or maybe something like > > hematoma > brachioplasty > facelift > etc. > > Except that in each of those, the para on hematoma is exactly the same. > There are discussions in the first half about things like hematomas, so > probably I should just refer the reader to those discussions and not to the > ones in each procedure, for which they could look under risks for the > procedure they want and find hematoma there anyway. > > I'm pretty sure of how I want to handle it, but I keep thinking of > different ways, so I thought I'd just ask you all how you'd do it, as you > might have a better way. > > Afraid of looking like an idiot if the solution is something really obvious > that I've missed. This is the first book I've had that is 50 percent the > same info over and over. > > Rachel > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:07:09 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Archaic Medical Terms I thought this might be a useful resource for not only genealogy types (for whom it is created), but others in indexing: Archaic Medical Terms for Genealogists http://www.gpiag-asthma.org/drpsmith/amt1.htm Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:42:52 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Circular Cross-references Hi all, As Pam states, circular cross-references are a very serious error. However, several years ago I was working for a very mischievous author, Cliff Stoll, who asked me to put a joke in the index. Anything I wanted, he said, but something funny and preferably involving "endless loop." In Cliff's book Silicon Snake Oil I did put in a series of circular cross-references. I can't put my hand on a copy of the book right now (too many books in this house apparently) but as I recall they went like this: endless loop. See repetition repetition. See reiteration reiteration. See endless loop Cliff was delighted to report to me, after the book had been published, that the "endless loop circular cross reference" joke was mentioned in several book reviews! Best, Sylvia Coates Pam Rider wrote: > It was not a joke. I have seen such errors and seriously--very > seriously--posit that circular would only correctly refer to itself in a > round-robin manner. > > I am will to be the only person holding and using this definition. The > other things are just cross postings to me. > Pam Rider > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > prider@electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:23:05 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: [Fwd: Authors and titles] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1FDEF6CFD3488F9EC195EA3E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oop! I sent this to Do Mi directly instead of to the list. Doesn't this usually go the other way around? Best, Sylvia Coates --------------1FDEF6CFD3488F9EC195EA3E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <370C7DE6.442CF0F6@slip.net> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:59:02 +0000 From: Sylvia Coates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DStaub11@aol.com Subject: Re: Authors and titles References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Paula, I have to agree here with Do Mi. I would not index the title under the author's name either. The only time I see something like this done is with artists and their artistic works (paintings, sculpture etc.) and that is only when the book is on art which requires that kind of format. Also, I wouldn't combine the authors names as a main entry, they should each have their own entry. Best, Sylvia Coates DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > Paula wrote: > > << I have an entry for a book co-written by two authors who have the same last > name. My entries look like this : > > *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* (Glueck and Glueck) 51 > > Glueck, Eleanor T.: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 > Glueck, Sheldon: *One Thousand Juvenile Delinquents* 51 >> > > This is interesting--what kind of book is it? I never index a title as a > subhead under the authors. I would just be indexing the title as you did, > with the authors' last names in parentheses, and then each author on their > own. > > I think that conflating people just because they have the same last name is > inconsistent--co-authors who had different names wouldn't be conflated. > > Do Mi --------------1FDEF6CFD3488F9EC195EA3E-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Stump the group... Anyone have any information about the difference between METATADA and Embedded electronic indexing? MJBarczak Washington DC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:09:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Circular Cross-references In-Reply-To: <199904081902.MAA21620@decibel.electriciti.com> At 10:42 AM 4/8/99 +0000, Sylvia wrote about: > > > endless loop. See repetition > repetition. See reiteration > reiteration. See endless loop > A circular delight! Thanks. As an editor, I always change "centering around" to "centering on." I think you actually qualify as one who centers around. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:45:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Frank Exner Subject: Re: Stump the group... --- "M. Jessie Barczak" wrote: > Anyone have any information about the difference > between > > METATADA > > and > > Embedded electronic indexing? > > MJBarczak > Washington DC > Hi Jessie, I can tell you the difference as of a couple of weeks ago. Of course things change rather quickly in the whacky world of information science, but ... Metadata is, literally, data about data. This is based on the pattern established by the term "metarules" which are rules about rules (e.g., all rules must be expressed in an "if ... then" format). Library catalogs are a classic example of metadata. However the term has become popular since computers have become popular instruments of information organization. File names, content descriptions, addresses, etc. are all examples of metadata. By attaching this material at the beginning of a file, it should be more easily found. Embedded electronic indexing is a specific form of metadata about format (e.g., what is a main entry and what is a subentry). Typesetters need information in order to format each index. Traditionally, this was provided through a paper copy which showed how the index should look. Embedded electronic indexing declares entry types, etc. with a set of tags. If you have any questions (or if this message hgas been as clear as quicksand), please send me a note. I'll try to be clearer. Frank Exner, Little Bear Little Bear Indexing Services Durham, NC _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:47:07 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Schultz, Darrel" Subject: Re: Stump the group... Well, here goes--The short story is that embedded electronic indexing is a subset of metadata. In Microsoft Word, for example (and in other publishing systems, as well), you can attach a variety of metadata to text. For example, when you specify whether a character is italic or bold, the system attaches metadata of sorts to that character. When you attach a bookmark to text, that's metadata, and, by extension, when you insert index "tokens" or markers (embedded electronic indexing) into a document, that, too, is metadata. Metadata is information that works behind the scenes to accomplish a a variety of tasks. Think of metadata as an underlying set of rules or protocols for data--in other words, data about data. Darrel Schultz Editor, Technical Publications J.D. Edwards World Source Company (303)334-1664 > -----Original Message----- > From: M. Jessie Barczak [SMTP:jbarczak@CQ.COM] > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 1999 2:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Stump the group... > > Anyone have any information about the difference between > > METATADA > > and > > Embedded electronic indexing? > > MJBarczak > Washington DC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Stumps From http://www.whatis.com/meta.htm "Meta is a prefix that in most information technology usages means "an underlying definition or description." Thus, metadata is a definition or description of data and metalanguage is a definition or description of language. Meta (pronounced MEH-tah in the U.S. and MEE-tah in the U.K.) derives from Greek, meaning "among, with, after, change." Whereas in some English words the prefix indicates "change" (for example, metamorphosis), in others, including those related to data and information, the prefix carries the meaning of "more comprehensive or fundamental." "The Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML) defines rules for how a document can be described in terms of its logical structure (headings, paragraphs or idea units, and so forth). SGML is often referred to as a metalanguage because it provides a "language for how to describe a language." A specific use of SGML is called a document type definition (DTD). A document type definition spells out exactly what the allowable language is. A DTD is thus a metalanguage for a certain type of document. (In fact, the Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) is an example of a document type definition. HTML defines the set of HTML tags that any Web page can contain.) "The Extensible Markup Language (XML), which is comparable to SGML and modelled on it, describes how to describe a collection of data. It's sometimes referred to as metadata. A specific XML definition, such as Microsoft's new Channel Definition Format (CDF), defines a set of tags for describing a Web channel. XML could be considered the metadata for the more restrictive metadata of CDF (and other future data definitions based on XML). "In the case of SGML and XML, "meta" connotes "underlying definition" or set of rules. In other usages, "meta" seems to connote "description" rather than "definition." For example, the HTML tag is used to enclose descriptive language about an HTML page. "One could describe any computer programming or user interface as a metalanguage for conversing with a computer. And an English grammar and dictionary together could be said to define (and describe) the metalanguage for spoken and written English. " and from the AuSI site http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/metadata/index.htm "Metadata Definition: Metadata is a means of providing Web users access to pages by including cataloguing and other information in the head section of the page. Information scientists world-wide are developing a single consistent system of tagging and description, based around a universally-accepted nucleus of information known as the Dublin Core (from Dublin Ohio, where the first metadata conference was held). This page aims to give some links to resources that may be of use in introducing and familiarising the use of metadata to indexers and cataloguers coming from a more traditional background." For embedded indexing: from the AuSI site again, from Glenda Browne's article "Automatic Indexing and Abstracting" at http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/resources/conferencepapers/browneg.htm "Embedded indexing software is available with computer packages such as word processors, PageMaker, and Framemaker. With embedded indexing the document to be indexed is on disk, and the indexer inserts tags into the document to indicate which index terms should be allocated for that page. It does not matter if the document is then changed, as the index tags will move with the part of the document to which they refer. (So if twenty pages are added at the beginning of the document, all of the other text, including the index tags, will move 20 pages further on). "Disadvantages of embedded indexing are that it is time-consuming to do and awkward to edit (Mulvany 1994). Indexers who use embedded indexing often also use a program such as Macrex or Cindex to overcome these problems. "Embedded indexing is commonly used for documents such as computer software manuals which are published in many versions, and which allow very little time for the index to be created after the text has been finalised. With embedded indexing, indexing can start before the final page proofs are ready. "Embedded indexing will probably be used more in the future: for indexing works which are published in a number of formats; for indexing textbooks which are printed on request using only portions of the original textbook or using a combination of sources; and for indexing electronically published works which are continually adapted. In some of these applications the same person may do the work of the editor and indexer. " ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:57:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Mullinix Subject: Re: Stump the group... In-Reply-To: <199904082151.RAA12504@mail.accessa.net> At 02:45 PM 04/08/99 -0700, you wrote: >--- "M. Jessie Barczak" wrote: >> Anyone have any information about the difference >> between >> >> METATADA >> >> and >> >> Embedded electronic indexing? >> >> MJBarczak >> Washington DC >> > >Hi Jessie, > There was a pair of articles by Jessica Milstead and Susan Feldman in the January-February issue of ONLINE magazine on this subject: "Metadata" and "Metadata - Cataloging By Any Other Name." Both articles are said to be available at ONLINE's web site: http://www.onlineinc.com/onlinemag/metadata They are a full discussion of what Frank said very succinctly. Barbara Mullinix Beeline Index Writing Service Emmitsburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:01:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Stump the group... "M. Jessie Barczak" wrote: > > Anyone have any information about the difference between > > METATADA > > and > > Embedded electronic indexing? "Metadata" is "data about data." In a Word document, for example, you can embed information about the author, creation date, and so on. That information isn't part of the text of the document, it's information (or data) *about* the document (also a kind of data). In HTML, you can store the same kind of information (and more). The tags you use are called META tags. They go in the HEAD of the HTML file, rather than the BODY. One of the META tags specifies character strings you want to associate with the file. Some search engines scan your files for a "keywords" META tag, and associate file with keywords in a database. When someone searches the database for a word, the search engine returns links to all the files that had that word in a "keywords" META tag. "Embedded electronic indexing" is "using software to store index entries in source files for use by computers in building access mechanisms." In Word, for example, you can insert index entries in a document, then use Word's indexing feature to build an index out of your entries. This is very handy if you use the document in several different publications, or if you simply don't want to bother typing in page numbers that may change right up to pubication. In HTML, the "keywords" META tags are a kind of embedded index entry--at least if you're willing to accept search engines as a rudimentary form of index. As a superior alternative to search engines :) you may want to look at HTML Indexer, at the URL below. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:18:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: Qualifying names/Titles This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BE82AC.F87733E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >None of those topics is mentioned in any greater detail, so I categorize them as passing mention. But the whole page is full of similar unelaborated details. I keep waffling between wanting to create 20 entries for the page and creating 1 entry for the page.< I usually toss in these apparent passing mentions in case the topic comes up again later in the book. If not, I delete them during final edit. I've indexed at least book in which virtually every topic was "passing mentions" scattered throughout the text. Without them, the index would have been little more than an alphabetized table of contents plus a few proper names. I find that it's easier to overindex and then weed out than try to find the three or four sentence discussion that was earlier passed up as not sufficiently substantive, but gained significance in light of later text. Jeanne ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BE82AC.F87733E0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Jeanne C. Moody.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Jeanne C. Moody.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moody;Jeanne;C. FN:Jeanne C. Moody ORG:Beaver Wood Associates TEL;WORK;VOICE:603-835-7900 TEL;WORK;FAX:603-835-6279 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 290;Alstead Center;NH;03602 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 290=0D=0AAlstead Center, NH 03602 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:jcmoody@top.monad.net REV:19990409T211822Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BE82AC.F87733E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:18:31 -0400 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Stumps This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BE81EC.34D9B360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a nutshell: Metadata describes a quantity of information. For example, a text book has authors, an ISBN number, a Library of Congress designation, and so on. These data tell you something about the book as a whole, but not about the content. Embedded indexing is the process of inserting descriptive (indexing) data into the information. The embedded information allows access to the content itself. Using the same example, a text book has information to which index entries point. In the computer world, you would have to identify those locations (anchors) so that you could navigate to them. I suppose it's similar to what your college textbooks look like with all the highlighting; the highlights are the anchors, "embedded" in the content. They don't describe the content, really, so much as they identify it for future reference. 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We still had availability for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday when I checked last. So if you are having problems, please let me know direct and I will get it taken care of. Sandi Schroeder Vice President, ASI sanindex@xsite.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:49:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Crowley Subject: Re: Stump the group... In-Reply-To: <19990408200432.GGQJ188313@listserv.cuny.edu> I have also heard that cataloging is a form or subset of metadata, or data about data. The word "Metadata" has been used so much, I am confused. Would anyone care to comment about this? Thanks! Julie At 04:05 PM 4/8/99 -0400, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: >Anyone have any information about the difference between > >METATADA > >and > >Embedded electronic indexing? > >MJBarczak >Washington DC Julie Moore Crowley Cataloger Stetson University, College of Law Library 1401 61st St. S. St. Petersburg, FL 33707 727-562-7829 "Listen for the rustling of Christ's robe at your side." -- Pasadena Presbyterian Church bulletin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:08:04 EDT Reply-To: Jmazefsky@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Mazefsky Subject: Fwd: ASI New York Chapter Conference - Saturday, May 8, 1999 --part1_a3649c9a.243ebb04_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_a3649c9a.243ebb04_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ya05.mx.aol.com (rly-ya05.mail.aol.com [172.18.144.197]) by air-ya03.mx.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 15:15:43 -0400 Received: from gateway.tpp.com (gateway.TPP.com [198.81.246.2]) by rly-ya05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id PAA09903 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gateway.tpp.com id PAA10374 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for jmazefsky@aol.com); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:15:40 -0400 Received: by gateway.tpp.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:15:40 -0400 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: RIAG From: "Janet Mazefsky" To: jmazefsky@aol.com Message-Id: <8525674C.006A1646.00@riavalmta02.riag.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:16:29 -0400 Subject: ASI New York Chapter Conference - Saturday, May 8, 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: JMazefsky@riag.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The New York Chapter of ASI is delighted to invite you to its first Annual Conference. Here is anf outline of the program. 8:15 a.m. Registration, networking, and coffee 9:00 a.m. Introductory Welcome and Comments 9:05 a.m. **Medical Indexing: Its Diagnosis, Treatment & Prognosis** Speakers: Frances Lennie, Maria Coughlin and Alexandra Nickerson 10:25 a.m. **Periodical Indexing** Speaker: Dorothy Thomas 11:45 a.m. Lunch (not included in conference fee. Restaurants are nearby or you are invited to bring takeout back to the location) 12:45 p.m. Networking before afternoon session 1:00 p.m. **The Changing Faces of the Publishing Industry** Speaker: Nan Fritz 2:20 p.m. Break 2:30 p.m. **Pageless Indexing** Speaker: Seth Maislin 3:45 p.m. Concluding Comments Location: Williams Club 24 E. 39th Street (between Park and Madison) New York City (212) 697-5300 If you wish to stay overnight, accomodations may be made at the conference location. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- Registration form: Name ________________________________________________ Affiliation _____________________________________________ Telephone or email: ____________________________________ ***Registrations postmarked by 4/15/99 $65/members $75/nonmembers Registrations postmarked by 5/1/99 $75/members $90/nonments After 5/1/99 or pay at door $95 members $105/nonmembers Please make check payable to ASI New York Chapter and mail to Janet Mazefsky 1636 Third Avenue #292 New York, NY 10128 ******************************************************** Note: if you have any questions and/or would like to receive a flyer with full details of the presentations and the notes on the speakers, please contact Janet Mazefsky (212-427-7375/ jmazefsky@aol.com), or Kevin Broccoli (914-985-9465/broccoli@bim.net) --part1_a3649c9a.243ebb04_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:38:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Circular Cross-references Pam Rider wrote: <> I enjoyed this - I always harp on this plus the use of the non-word "irregardless" (although by now it may be in the dictionary, I don't know - I'll have to look one of these days before I get smug about it again to someone). My point regarding "center on" vs. "center around" is that this is the only time I have ever heard anyone else other than myself make a point about it. Julie Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:47:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: [Fwd: Authors and titles] In-Reply-To: <199904081953.MAA13289@mail.mcn.org> Sylvia wrote: >I have to agree here with Do Mi. I would not index the title under the author's >name either. The only time I see something like this done is with artists and >their artistic works (paintings, sculpture etc.) and that is only when the book > is >on art which requires that kind of format. Chicago Manual of Style sections 17.95-96 clearly show titles indexed with authors, and it is my practice to do so when dealing with the works as indexable objects and not simply citations. In some books the distinction is unclear and I usually err on the side of inclusion in that case. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:57:18 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: more questions In-Reply-To: I would do exactly what Sylvia has suggested here. I always consider one of the strengths of an index to be that it offers a *different* sort of access (ie it is an alternative to the classified organisation of the Table of Contents, and of page number order). If someone wants to go through each of the subheadings in page number order they can do that easily within the text. The index is for those who want to search for a specific subdivision, and alphabetic order is the most straightforward way to allow this. If they want the topic in general, then they are best served by the whole page range 1-7. Glenda. > Dear Rachel, > > Sorting by page number order is an acceptable format. Although > the only press > which I know of that regularly uses it is Stanford University Press. > > However, I have another suggestion for you: I think that it would > be better to > not breakdown the individual procedures into subentries if (as > they appear to > be in your example) they are only over a very few page spread. If > the text is > able to cover each procedure in only three or four or even seven > pages then > index it as: > > brachioplasty (armlift), 1-7 > > and also: > > armlift (brachioplasty), 1-7 > > I would never suggest this format if the book was for professionals or a > serious nursing or medical text. However, since this book is for > the layman and > a trade book it is perfectly acceptable to do this. Remember that > the index is > to be useful to the reader and for this kind of book this format > serves that > purpose. > > I would also then list the pertinent information for each > procedure under these > headings: > > pain, from brachioplasty (armlift), 4 > > prescriptions, during brachioplasty (armlift), 5 > > recovery time, for brachioplasty (armlift), 6 > > risks, of brachioplasty (armlift), 7 > > My feeling is that this format would allow the reader to very > quickly access > specific information without making the index look cumbersome and > over indexed. > > Hope this helps, and good luck with your book! > > Best, > Sylvia Coates > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:43:29 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: [Fwd: Authors and titles] Victoria is correct. I was thinking about art objects and not about literature, but this also applies to authors and their literary works. I've done the same thing myself when indexing literary subject matter. It obviously slipped my mind, which seems to be slipping more and more on a daily basis :). However, when titles are only cited in the text, as in the original question starting this thread, they would not be included as a sub entry to the author's name. Best, Sylvia Coates Victoria Baker wrote: > Sylvia wrote: > >I have to agree here with Do Mi. I would not index the title under the > author's > >name either. The only time I see something like this done is with artists and > >their artistic works (paintings, sculpture etc.) and that is only when the > book > > is > >on art which requires that kind of format. > > Chicago Manual of Style sections 17.95-96 clearly show titles indexed with > authors, and it is my practice to do so when dealing with the works as > indexable objects and not simply citations. In some books the distinction > is unclear and I usually err on the side of inclusion in that case. > > Best, > Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 03:36:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Stump the group... In-Reply-To: <199904090156.VAA43380@mail.acm.org> A 1997 issue of the Bulletin of the American Society of Information Science covers this topic and full text of the articles are available at: http://www.asis.org/Bulletin/Oct-97/index.html Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 09:49 PM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >I have also heard that cataloging is a form or subset of metadata, or data >about data. The word "Metadata" has been used so much, I am confused. >Would anyone care to comment about this? > >Thanks! > >Julie > >At 04:05 PM 4/8/99 -0400, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: >>Anyone have any information about the difference between >> >>METATADA >> >>and >> >>Embedded electronic indexing? >> >>MJBarczak >>Washington DC > > >Julie Moore Crowley >Cataloger >Stetson University, College of Law Library >1401 61st St. S. >St. Petersburg, FL 33707 >727-562-7829 > >"Listen for the rustling of Christ's robe at your side." >-- Pasadena Presbyterian Church bulletin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:56:43 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: center on vs. center around Julie Grayson wrote: My point regarding "center on" vs. "center around" is that this is the only time I have ever heard anyone else other than myself make a point about it. Since I have been a longtime editor and have only recently begun to learn indexing, this is the kind of discussion I enjoy. One of my favorite reference books, "The Careful Writer: A Modern Guide to English Usage" by Theodore Bernstein, states: ""The strikers are at odds over their actual grievances, but these appear to center around the vacation provision of the contract.' "The verb *center* means to be collected or gathered to a point. Therefore, one may use *center on, center in, or center at,* but should not use the word *around.* If one has a particular fancy for the word *around," he should precede it with "revolve, rotate, cluster* or some similar word." So you are not alone in your preferences, Julie. Jean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 05:45:25 EDT Reply-To: SHSweeney@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sharon H. Sweeney" Subject: Indexing newspapers I have volunteered to index a group of populist newspapers from the late nineteenth century for a historical society. Can anyone give me some tips on how to set this up? The newpapers and their date ranges have already been identified. I want to limit the sections of the papers to be indexed to those that have some bearing on populism--in other words, not local news, features, fashion, etc., unless they relate to the populist movement. Since there are more than 100 newspapers, I will need to identify each paper in each record--The Abilene Dispatch as AD, for example--plus the page and column? Is there a standard format for this? What other issues should I confront before starting the actual indexing? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated! Sharon Sweeney ssweeney@midusa.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:03:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: JOB POSTING: Index Editor - DC Area All -- I am posting this announcement for David m. Bird (David.Bird@Lexis-Nexis.com), Managing Editor, Statistical Reference Inde= x, Congressional Information Service. Please reply directly to him (NOT to me!). *** Index Editor Congressional Information Service (CIS), a leading publisher of reference= and research products and services, and a division of LEXIS-NEXIS, locate= d in the DC metro area. Statistical Reference Index (SRI) is recruiting an Index Editor. SRI is a= monthly reference publication, abstracting and indexing statistical publications from private and State govt sources. Index Editor is responsible for publication of index book section and for assuring indexi= ng thoroughness, accuracy, and consistency, including term selection and accuracy of brief content descriptions appearing under index terms. Also provides training/consultation for abstractor/indexers. Requires superior= indexing and editing skills, experience with hierarchical controlled vocabulary, and good interpersonal skills. Familiarity with statistics helpful. Salary: low 30s. = CIS provides a comprehensive benefits package, including 401(k), medical,= dental, education assistance and parking/metro subsidy. Conveniently located one block from Bethesda Metro. Send resume with cover letter to:= Congressional Information Service, Attn: Human Resources # 44, 4520 East= West Highway, Bethesda MD 20814, Fax: 301-654-4033, e-mail: = hr.cis@lexis-nexis.com *** Lori Lathrop ASI President, 1998-1999 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:07:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: decisions In-Reply-To: <000201be8245$71f9c060$87cf23cb@pentium> Thanks to all for all the suggestions. I'm doing a combination of all your advice. I've decided not to sort in page number order, though I really liked the idea, but I would have to do the whole index that way and for the rest it wouldn't make sense. While I normally agree that if the chapters are short (and these are all less than 10 pages), then just the page range is adequate, in this case, the chapter titles are the name of the procedure and are all in the TOC, so just putting the the page range in seems just like a duplication of the TOC. So I'm putting in the section headings, but I'm also pulling out all the other info such as pain, length of procedure, special instructions, etc. and also putting each procedure under those, making it much longer but I have plenty of space. This was my original plan that I had for some reason discarded. Can't remember why now. I had started this index and then stopped it in favor of a closer deadline on another, so I lost track of what I had originally planned. I feel it is now a good index thanks to you all. Before it seemed lacking and I could not figure out why. Too many indexes in one 3-week period! How do those of you who regularly work on more than one project at a time keep your brains intact? I normally do one index a month, but since March 20 I've done 3 plus this one with another on the desk to start this afternoon. Plus working, plus I had a hysterectomy less than a month ago. I feel a little fried. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:56:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: scholarly SIG contact person I just wanted to let y'all know that the ASI scholarly SIG contact person (i.e., me) has a new e-mail address: indexer@execpc.com Cheers, Carol Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:06:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Names as subentries In-Reply-To: <199904080410.XAA20612@c.mx.execpc.com> >What about this for relating people? I've seen it in periodicals: > > Clinton, William Jefferson > Dick Moris, relationship with Does anybody else do the following (primarily in biographies)? I tend to use "and" for most of the relationship-type subs and "relationship with" for immediate family members. So (without defending my placement of "and") an entry for Clinton might look like this: Clinton, William Jefferson and Bush and Morris relationship with daughter relationship with wife Yes, yes, I know it looks inconsistent. But it has the advantage of grouping the close relationships together (and readers learn to look for them there). Whereas the less close relationships are listed by name, which is how people would be likely look for them. I think. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: decisions At 09:07 AM 4/9/99 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote: >I feel it is now a good index thanks to you all. Before it seemed lacking >and I could not figure out why. Too many indexes in one 3-week period! How >do those of you who regularly work on more than one project at a time keep >your brains intact? I normally do one index a month, but since March 20 >I've done 3 plus this one with another on the desk to start this afternoon. >Plus working, plus I had a hysterectomy less than a month ago. I feel a >little fried. > > >Rachel You put your mind on auto-pliot and don't have a life for the time you are doing the indexes! Nothing matters except the work, it seems. One does get fried after too long at this pace. That's how I learned that taking off time periodically throughout the year is vitally important. I used to think that I could just do that (take time off) during slow periods, but after a while there were no slow periods, so I had to carve out the time by saying "No," and thus referring projects to other indexers. I call these periods my re-charging periods. I do nothing related to indexing at all during my time off, and then I find myself itching to get going again as the end of my time off looms ahead.=20 Rachel, honestly, you are amazing if you have been doing that much work after a hysterectomy! You have every right to feel tired, fried, and frazzled! Take it easy now! Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony."=20 --Car=EAme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:02:08 EDT Reply-To: Locatelli@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: For the PoliSci folks In a message dated 99-04-07 09:36:58 EDT, infodex@mindspring.com writes: > In this book I'm doing on the Clinton legacy, there are references to > various buzzwords and catch phrases associated with the Clinton presidency: > " I feel your pain", "ending welfare as we know it", etc. > > It seems to me that such phrases deserve to be indexed in their own right. > For instance, the "feel your pain" entry would direct the reader to a brief > discussion of the context in which the phrase was initially uttered. > > Your thoughts? > > Dick This answer may be a few days late, but here it is nonetheless. I would probably index this as Clinton, William Jefferson favorite phrases feel your pain If sub-sub-entries are not allowed in the index you're working on, then I'd go the route of Clinton, William Jefferson, favorite phrases feel your pain Another alternative would be to use the heading "phrases." Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexind and Editorial Services www.betweenthelinesindexes.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:39:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: [Fwd: Authors and titles] I'm enjoying the responses. I generally follow the Do Mi and Sylvia method, that is, no titles under the author's name (unless there is a good reason). But upon rereading Chicago, I saw in 17.95: " A reference to a work by an author (or composer or painter) is usually indexed both as a main entry under its title and as a subentry under the main entry for the author." (p 737) Hence my query to the list. I have had one author "yell" at me for not doing it the "17.95 way". No one else has ever seemed to notice or care. I suppose being yelled at by an author is a good reason, but just for that book and not all the others. It takes up a lot of precious space to include titles, and since they are already listed as main entries, if one forgets either the title or the author, it will be easy enough to find in the index. I suppose that is the bottom line, after all. Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:47:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: [Fwd: Authors and titles] One more item: When I DO include the title as a subhead under the author's name, I sometimes choose to do so to indicate that it's the book that's being talked about rather than the person. I imagine this practice might lead us back into the thread on how much qualitative information to put in the index. Paula C. Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:29:42 EDT Reply-To: Locatelli@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: more questions Pam, I think this is a perfect place to use my principle of "breaking the rules." I think there are times when chronological order makes a better presentation of information, and that seems to be the case here. I certanly don't think the reader would be confused by the chron order and, in fact, might even be able to make more sense of the information. With regard to: > hematoma > brachioplasty > facelift > etc. I would include every instance, even if the actual information in the text is the same. It lets the reader know with what procedures that problem is associated. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services www.betweenthelinesindexes.com In a message dated 99-04-08 11:19:06 EDT, racric@together.net writes: > So what I want to do is this (subentries in order of appearance, not > alpha-sorted): > > brachioplasty (armlift) > procedure,1 > pre-surgery instructions, 2 > post-surgery instructions, 3 > pain, 4 > prescriptions, 5 > recovery, 6 > risks, 7 > and again exactly like that for each one. > > If I sort alphabetically on those, then the reader is all over the place > within the procedure: > > brachioplasty (armlift) > pain, 4 > post-surgery instructions, 3 > prescriptions, 5 > pre-surgery instructions, 2 > procedure,1 > recovery, 6 > risks, 7 > > so I'm wondering if all my subentries should be sorted chronologically by > page number instead of alphabetically. Has anyone ever done that? Is it a > stupid idea? > Then if there are any new things introduced, they'd get their own main > entry, just the first time, or maybe something like > > hematoma > brachioplasty > facelift > etc. > > Except that in each of those, the para on hematoma is exactly the same. > There are discussions in the first half about things like hematomas, so > probably I should just refer the reader to those discussions and not to the > ones in each procedure, for which they could look under risks for the > procedure they want and find hematoma there anyway. > > I'm pretty sure of how I want to handle it, but I keep thinking of > different ways, so I thought I'd just ask you all how you'd do it, as you > might have a better way. > > Afraid of looking like an idiot if the solution is something really obvious > that I've missed. This is the first book I've had that is 50 percent the > same info over and over. > > Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:49:29 EDT Reply-To: DStaub11@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: decisions Cynthia wrote: << One does get fried after too long at this pace. That's how I learned that taking off time periodically throughout the year is vitally important. I used to think that I could just do that (take time off) during slow periods, but after a while there were no slow periods, so I had to carve out the time by saying "No," and thus referring projects to other indexers. >> I've found the same thing. (Although, Rachel, haven't you noticed that my brains aren't always completely intact??! :-) In fact, I have to go away somewhere else. My partner and I go to the coast for a childless weekend about three times a year (we really need more). I also schedule down times by turning down jobs. Usually by the end of one or both of these, I'm eager to index again. Getting together with other indexers has the same effect, which is why ASI meetings are essential to my continuing to do this job (that's how I put it in the family budget discussions!). Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:48:00 EDT Reply-To: Locatelli@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: decisions In a message dated 99-04-09 09:32:30 EDT, racric@together.net writes: > Thanks to all for all the suggestions. I'm doing a combination of all your > advice. I've decided not to sort in page number order, though I really > liked the idea, but I would have to do the whole index that way and for the > rest it wouldn't make sense. No, you don't have to do the entire book in page order. When my index for "Art and Affection: a Biography of Panthea Reid" was shortlisted for the H.W. Wilson Award, one of the things cited what that the different sorting methods worked so naturally that they were almost transparent to the user. It took the evaluator over an hour before she noticed what I had done. So use chronological or page order where it works and leave the rest in page order. Breaking the rules is liberating! (For good cause, of course.) Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services www.betweenthelinesindexes.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:03:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: For the PoliSci folks Dick Evans wrote: >In this book I'm doing on the Clinton legacy, there are references to >various buzzwords and catch phrases associated with the Clinton presidency: >" I feel your pain", "ending welfare as we know it", etc. > >It seems to me that such phrases deserve to be indexed in their own right. >For instance, the "feel your pain" entry would direct the reader to a brief >discussion of the context in which the phrase was initially uttered. > >Your thoughts? Be careful. I once did an index for a history book, the first and only one of those I've done in fact. I had exactly the same thought. I thought it would be a good idea to have terms like Roosevelt, Franklin Delano ... claims "all we have to fear is fear itself", 254 ... Well the editor didn't see it the same way. She went ballistic. She made me eliminate all sorts of terms like Sanger, Margaret support for birth control, 350 saying these were "value judgements", and replace them with essentially long series of undifferentiated locators. So much for a career indexing history books. Interestingly this same editor will be giving a talk in Indiana, making it a no-brainer no-attend for me, as if I would ever have the bucks anyway! Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:10:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: decisions I got really burned out at another non-indexing job and found that I *could not go to work*. It was a very unsettling feeling. I would go to the job in the morning and leave by noon. I didn't quite get fired because the boss depended on me, but we were both very unhappy. Fortunately, I had started indexing again part-time (took off some time to go get a music degree) so just segued into my new career. It is very important to me to never get that burned out again, mostly because after that experience, I can't be sure I could make myself do it if I got burned out and then I'd be casting about desperately for something to do! I once indexed 20 hours in a row due to computer problems (in the days before Cindex!). And, in the repressed memory department, I once did an editing job while I had the flu. I editied the As, then threw up, edited the Bs, then threw up, etc. I had no recollection of this experience until Do Mi reminded me of it several years later! The only value I get from having had these experiences is that if I'm having a bad day I can look at them and say, "THIS isn't as bad as THAT was!" Like Cynthia, I've always planned to get some breaks during those slow times. I haven't had a slow time since 1994. I haven't even had an "indexless" week except for the week I got married, and then I had to turn down a job or two to get the week off. Over the past four years I've been taking on a bit more work each year, once I've determined that I can handle the workload. My goal is to index about 10 more titles each year than the year before. Last year my average was 4.5 indexes a month. When deadlines are 2 days apart I just grit my teeth and promise myself a treat later. I take lots of breaks during the day and try to always take off weekends unless the deadline just can't be met otherwise. I've decided not to take indexes on what are supposed to be vacations, because the page proofs would always call me from their place in the bottom of my suitcase. Back to my index. Thanks for the break! Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:43:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" Subject: Re: Stump the group... In-Reply-To: <199904090156.VAA17666@nessie.crosslink.net> I obediently went to the Aussie Newsletter site given by Jon & Glenda. There is an entire section on metadata, including a definition. Ardith B. Ayotte, RT ABBA Index Services Virginia At 09:49 PM 4/8/99 -0400, Julie Crowley wrote: >I have also heard that cataloging is a form or subset of metadata, or data >about data. The word "Metadata" has been used so much, I am confused. >Would anyone care to comment about this? > >Thanks! > >Julie > >At 04:05 PM 4/8/99 -0400, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: >>Anyone have any information about the difference between >> >>METATADA >> >>and >> >>Embedded electronic indexing? >> >>MJBarczak >>Washington DC > > >Julie Moore Crowley >Cataloger >Stetson University, College of Law Library >1401 61st St. S. >St. Petersburg, FL 33707 >727-562-7829 > >"Listen for the rustling of Christ's robe at your side." >-- Pasadena Presbyterian Church bulletin > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:27:31 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Qualifying names In-Reply-To: <199904071338.GAA02847@nccn.net> At 01:43 PM 4/6/99 -0400, Dick wrote: >In this Clinton book I find a lot of names mentioned only once, and then in >a very narrow context. Is it useful to indicate that context in the index >entry? > >For example: > >Smith, John J. > on health care > >Given that there is only one entry per name, this gives a lot of primary >entries with only one subentry, which I try to avoid. Is the utility >value to the reader worth the sacrifice of style? I use "So-and-so: on this-or-that" to index a discussion about what someone has said, but if the context is "very narrow" like the one here, as in a quotation without a discussion, an "on" subheading is probably too much. At Do Mi Stauber's "Facing the Text" workshop in Berkeley last month I suggested this method for indexing an undiscussed quotation and Sylvia Coates objected saying that she thought this would be overindexing. I agree with Sylvia about this and I very much appreciate her criticism, but I'm still not content to plug in the locator right after the name and leave it at that, so here are some ruminations on indexing names on which I'd appreciate hearing your comments. As I said at the workshop, I want every index entry I write to give the reader a good idea of what the text it points to is about, and it seems to me that the common practice of adding unannotated locators to unmodified names, while fine for indexing descriptions of or general discussions about the persons themselves, is inadequate for indexing more specific or differentiated information including quotations, discussions of quotations and/or views, discussions of works, and citations of works (unless all names indexed happen to be citations). As I said above, I use "So-and-so: on this-or-that" for indexing discussions of quotations and/or views, and I also use "So-and-so: " for indexing discussions of someone's works: I'd also like to make use of a couple of new tools for indexing undiscussed quotations and citations of works: the annotation "_q_" (italicized in Academic Press style) for undiscussed quotations (and maybe also for discussions of quotations in addition to "on" subheadings) and the annotation "_w_" for works cited. By using such tools we could avoid overloading unannotated locators after unmodified names by reserving their use for descriptions of or general discussions about persons themselves, which is exactly what I believe most readers unfamiliar with the intricacies of indexing would expect such references to indicate. At first these tools might appear to be too complex but I think that most readers would discover their meaning quickly, and that they'd enhance index usability significantly by enabling readers to home in on or pass over material that clearly is or is not what they're looking for. Reactions, anyone?!!! Thanks, Michael P.S. I don't think having single subheadings is a sacrifice of style. Indeed, isn't it the other way around? Isn't eliminating single subheadings a stylistic sacrifice of clarity? I wonder whether the need to sacrifice single subheadings in order to meet space limitations got turned into a virtue in some minds somewhere along the way. Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:11:37 -0700 Reply-To: tanghill@pacbell.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Tang Subject: INDEX-L Does anyone know how to "unsubscribe" to INDEX-L? After lurking in the shadows for awhile, I've decided that this profession is not suited to me and I would like to eliminate receiving the mail on INDEX-L. Thanks! Tanghill@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:18:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: For the PoliSci folks Kevin Mulrooney wrote: > Be careful. I once did an index for a history book, the first and only one > of those I've done in fact. I had exactly the same thought. I thought it > would be a good idea to have terms like > > Roosevelt, Franklin Delano > ... > claims "all we have to fear is fear itself", 254 > ... > > Well the editor didn't see it the same way. She went ballistic. She made > me eliminate all sorts of terms like > > Sanger, Margaret > support for birth control, 350 > > saying these were "value judgements", and replace them with essentially long > series of undifferentiated locators. So much for a career indexing history > books. Kevin, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Frankly, I can't see where the editor was coming from. After all, Sanger *did* support birth control. The "value judgement" was Sanger's, not yours! Yes, we do have to be leery of allowing our own feelings and interpretations to influence our word choices, but it doesn't sound to me as though you did that. Your entries read as sensible ones to me... and I've never had an editor challenge similar entries, myself. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:13:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Re: Qualifying names/Titles In-Reply-To: <199904071833.TAA16408@nickel.cix.co.uk> Sorry to chip in so late, but I would always add the sub-heading (unless space was really tight)in an entry like the one quoted. I feel that if the entry was just Smith, John J. the reference would be to something about that person; if it's only to his views on something I would think that the reference without a subheading would be misinformation. So I would put (like Elinor) Smith, John J., on health care all on the same line. The convention that MACREX follows (taken from a variety of sources) is that entries with a single subentry do not have the subentry indented. You can, of course, change this if you wish! Drusilla Drusilla Calvert D.Calvert@macrex.cix.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:13:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Re: Names as subentries In-Reply-To: <199904091343.OAA04617@nickel.cix.co.uk> Carol - I couldn't agree more! I'm a great believer in "and" - it covers a multitude of sins and has the great advantage of being completely un-judgmental (very useful if you think the subject of the biography might be likely to sue!) Drusilla (Carol wrote: <> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:28:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Re: Names as subentries In-Reply-To: Whoops! I meant non-judgmental! Sorry Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:07:56 EDT Reply-To: TBrtrm@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: AOL PROBLEMS/THANKS Thanks to all who replied to my query. I see I am not alone in my frustration. Would that there would be some recourse other than switching carriers. Thelda ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: AOL PROBLEMS In-Reply-To: <199904072009.QAA19597@mx06.erols.com> Hi Thelda, Since I just went through the process of buying a new modem, I might have some useful information for you. My original 56K modem was a Zoom modem and it worked pretty well (connected usually, but not always, on the first try and at a high speed). I recently decided to buy a new modem with voicemail features. The first one I bought was a ModemBlaster. It was awful as far as making a connection was concerned. It generally took three or four tries. When it did connect I got the highest speeds I have ever achieved though (53,333). My Zoom modem usually connected between (49,333 and 50,666). I took that modem back and bought a U.S. Robotics 56K Voice Faxmodem. It was very significantly more expensive, but it installed easily and has not once failed to connect on the first attempt - NOT ONCE. It generally connects at (49,333) which is plenty fast and I am very happy with it. The only reason I mention this is that apparently your modem *can* be the cause of your connection problems. If you have had any thoughts at all of investing in a new modem, you might want to try that prior to assuming that AOL is the problem. (I'm not saying they are not - just that they may not be.) Oh yea, one other thing that I should mention is that with the ModemBlaster, I was disconnected in the middle of a session. That is the only modem with which this has ever happened to me. Again, the modem apparently *can* make a big difference in your online experience. Anyone else had a similar experience with different modems? Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com, Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472, Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:39:04 EDT Reply-To: MAMalnor@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Malnor Subject: ASI SHIRTS Dear Fellow Indexers, ANNOUNCING THE OPPORTUNITY TO PROMOTE OUR PROFESSION AND TO LOOK GREAT IN THE PROCESS! The Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter of ASI is selling ASI polo shirts, T-shirts, and sweatshirts for the whole family. Each item is embroidered with the ASI logo and the phrase "THE INDEX IS THE KEY." The shirts come in either forest green with a cream logo or wheat with a plum logo. We will be taking orders for the shirts at the annual conference, but this is your chance to order ahead - shirts can be mailed in advance (see shipping charges on order form), or picked up in Indianapolis (no shipping charges.). Important "order by" dates: May 7, 1999 - to have shirts shipped to you in time for conference. May 21, 1999 - to pick up order at Indianapolis Please send order forms and checks (made out to Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter) to Caryl Wenzel (address below). Thanks! Following are product descriptions and the order form: ************************************************************ Polo Shirts (Adult only): Jerzees brand, 100% combed cotton pique with quarter-length sleeves, two wood-tone button placket, welt collar and cuffs, side vents with 2" dropped tail. 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[ ] SHIP order to above address: see Delivery* Charges below. Order Total Delivery* $20-100 $5.00 $101-150 $7.00 $151-200 $9.00 Over $201 $11.00 NO EXCHANGES NO REFUNDS STYLE CODE COLOR CODE SIZE CODE UNIT PRICE QTY TOTAL Subtotal Delivery* TOTAL Make check payable to: Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Mail to: Caryl Wenzel 8315 Route 53, #B-14 Woodridge, IL 60517 Subtotal ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:48:22 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: For the PoliSci folks Kevin, I'd be even less charitable to this editor than Kara was. It looks to me like the editor might have been determined to foist HER value judgments onto the index. I recall someone commenting some time ago that objections were raised because the index began with the word "abortion." I just finished an index the first word of which was "abortion." No problem. Whew! Of course, it isn't clear whether the motivation behind such tinkering is based on strictly moral judgments or on a judgment that commercial success is related to the avoidance of anything that smacks of controversy in the index. Nick Koenig >Kevin Mulrooney wrote: >> Be careful. I once did an index for a history book, the first and only >one >> of those I've done in fact. I had exactly the same thought. I thought >it >> would be a good idea to have terms like >> >> Roosevelt, Franklin Delano >> ... >> claims "all we have to fear is fear itself", 254 >> ... >> >> Well the editor didn't see it the same way. She went ballistic. She >made >> me eliminate all sorts of terms like >> >> Sanger, Margaret >> support for birth control, 350 >> >> saying these were "value judgements", and replace them with essentially >long >> series of undifferentiated locators. So much for a career indexing >history >> books. > >Kevin, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Frankly, I can't see where >the editor was coming from. After all, Sanger *did* support birth control. > The "value judgement" was Sanger's, not yours! Yes, we do have to be >leery of allowing our own feelings and interpretations to influence our >word choices, but it doesn't sound to me as though you did that. Your >entries read as sensible ones to me... and I've never had an editor >challenge similar entries, myself. > >Kara Pekar >Wordsmith Indexing Services >jkpekar@crosslink.net > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:49:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: "value-loaded" terms Nick Koenig wrote: > I recall > someone commenting some time ago that objections were > raised because the index began with the word "abortion." > I just finished an index the first word of which was "abortion." > No problem. Whew! > > Of course, it isn't clear whether the motivation behind such > tinkering is based on strictly moral judgments or on a judgment > that commercial success is related to the avoidance of > anything that smacks of controversy in the index. I'd say usually the latter. Yes, abortion can be a loaded word, but in and of itself, it's hardly a value judgement. People make value judgements about the process -- often quite vehemently -- but the word itself simply names the process. Theoretically, both a pro-life publication and a pro-choice publication could have indexes beginning with the word "abortion." (After all, it starts with the letters "ab;" if it occurs as an indexable topic at all, it's bound to end up near the top!) The difference between those publications would probably be apparent in the subentries, but not in the entry itself. I'm currently working on a book for which the first entry is likely to be "abortion." If I left it out, I'd be leaving out a significant theme of the book. I doubt the editor will contest the term's inclusion, but if he did, I would make precisely that point. BTW, terminology for the two sides in the abortion controversy is a lot more value-loaded than the word "abortion." There *is* no value-neutral term for either of the opposing sides, which could pose an interesting dilemma for the indexer. If one term ("right-to-life", pro-life," or "anti-abortion;" "pro-choice", "pro-abortion," or "abortionist") is used exclusively, the indexer would, I assume, use that term in the index. But if the terms are used interchangeably, which should be chosen for the index? You'll notice above that I chose to use the most "positive" of each set of terms, which I believe corresponds to the term preferred by each of the sides. But even those terms are negatively-charged to the opposing side. As W.S. Gilbert puts it, "A nice dilemma we have here, That calls for all our wit." Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:35:40 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: aussi website index - references revisited A few days ago I announced a new index to the AusSI website, with a bit of work remaining to be done on references. These have now been fixed. If you have comments on these or any other aspects of the site please let me know. Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:54:46 EDT Reply-To: Sendx@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita Levy Subject: AOL Problems Ironically, two of the replies to AOL problems illustrate my main problem with AOL (Mac version); the message part is solid black. AOL's technical help blames it on the messages being HTML but I don't think that's it. In fact, another message from the same source (JPEKAR) today was perfectly legible. Ny ideas? Another question, does anybody know how to post an "Out of the office" message on AOL, e.g. when someone sends you E-Mail they get an automatic message back that you've set up. Kind of like voice mail for E-Mail? (AOL help didn't know what Iwas talking about but referred me to the product that lets you speak instead of keyboard.) Thanks, Anita Levy Space Coast Indexers Inc. Cocoa Beach, FL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:02:58 EDT Reply-To: Sendx@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita Levy Subject: Decisions On the topic of working several indexes at once, I find the following helpful: 1.Work on different kinds of books at once, so that each seems a kind of vacation from the other. 2.Be at different stages on different indexes, such as final editing on one, data entry on another, preliminary scanning on a third. 3.Take a break for some physical activity such as working out in the middle of the day or tennis. 4.Keep one index on a laptop and work on it in a different place, such as the local library or a Barnes & Noble coffee shop. The vacation ideas are great too! Anita Levy Space Coast Indexers Inc. Cocoa Beach FL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:43:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: AOL Problems --------------C9D49A6D0A22F3B0AB882259 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anita Levy wrote: > Another question, does anybody know how to post an "Out of the office" > message on AOL, e.g. when someone sends you E-Mail they get an automatic > message back that you've set up. Kind of like voice mail for E-Mail? (AOL help didn't > know what Iwas talking about but referred me to the product that lets you speak > instead of keyboard.) > Click on whatever you need to to access AIM (AOL Instant Message Service), click on "show buddy list", click on "File", click on "away message" and then you can type in whatever you would like. (I don't subscribe to AOL, but most web browsers now have the AIM capability built in) and this is what I do. Hope this works. Julie Grayson --------------C9D49A6D0A22F3B0AB882259 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anita Levy wrote: 
Another question, does anybody know how to post an "Out of the office"
message on AOL, e.g. when someone sends you E-Mail they get an automatic
message back that you've set up. Kind of like voice mail for E-Mail? (AOL help
 didn't
know what Iwas talking about but referred me to the product that lets you speak
instead of keyboard.)
Click on whatever you need to to access AIM (AOL Instant Message Service), click on "show buddy list", click on "File", click on "away message" and then you can type in whatever you would like. (I don't subscribe to AOL, but most web browsers now have the AIM capability built in) and this is what I do.

Hope this works.
Julie Grayson --------------C9D49A6D0A22F3B0AB882259-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:58:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Patton Subject: WWW essence Since I subscribe in digest form, I don't know if someone else has beat me to this -- there's an article by George Johnson in today's (Sunday 4/11/1999) New York Times: "Searching for the Essence of the World Wide Web" with the subtitle "Shall I Compare Thee to A Swarm of Insects?" It's a study of "Webology" and describes use of the Web as an ecosystem to which "informavores" are drawn. Even back of the book indexers should read this one. It starts on the first page of the Week in Review section, and certainly can be found on the Times Web site -- I prefer the hard copy myself. Deborah ============================== Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:11:51 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Out of Office messages In-Reply-To: > > > Another question, does anybody know how to post an "Out of the office" > > message on AOL, e.g. when someone sends you E-Mail they get an automatic > > message back that you've set up. A thing that intrigues me is this: suppose A sets their machine up to give 'Out of Office Messages' (OOM). B sends an email to A, then sets her machine up to give OOM because she is going out. A's machine replies to B's email with an OOM, to which B's machine replies with an OOM, to which... you get the idea. What stops the cycle? Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:11:51 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: "value-loaded" terms In-Reply-To: > BTW, terminology for the two sides in the abortion controversy is a lot > more value-loaded than the word "abortion." There *is* no value-neutral > term for either of the opposing sides, which could pose an interesting > dilemma for the indexer. If one term ("right-to-life", pro-life," or > "anti-abortion;" "pro-choice", "pro-abortion," or "abortionist") is used > exclusively, the indexer would, I assume, use that term in the index. But > if the terms are used interchangeably, which should be chosen for the > index? Perhaps one should insist on a preliminary note being included, which would explain the criterion on which value-laden terms are included, where value-free ones are not available. The criterion itself would have to be value-free. Perhaps simply one would choose whichever term occurred earlier in the alphabet, or whichever appeared earlier in the text. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:32:15 EDT Reply-To: WordenDex@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: "value-loaded" terms Abortion used to be a neutral term for a process that could have included natural, non-induced miscarriage. However, last night's newspaper quoted an anti-abortion proponent who extended it to include contraception. This goes back to the rant of several months ago when someone wrote, "Words are what we say they mean." Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:45:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: Out of Office messages - GRRR In-Reply-To: >> > Another question, does anybody know how to post an "Out of the office" >> > message on AOL, e.g. when someone sends you E-Mail they get an >>> automatic message back that you've set up. Don't you DARE! This little perk is fast becoming my personal pet peeve. If a person is on lists and goes on vacation (or whatever), the courteous thing to do is postpone so that every single member of a list does not get an out-of-office message every time the list software distributes mail. So, now you know. To quote the US West Information Operator: Please Make A Note of It. Martha - assuming everyone will cheerfully hop-to in order to avoid annoying her ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:53:38 EDT Reply-To: ROBJRICH@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Grrrr! Martha - First we have a Rolybear on Index-L, now we have a Growly Bear! Sounds like the Pacific Northwest is getting to be a scary place - all teeth and claws! I guess the bears are just coming out of hibernation and are hungry and grumpy.... But that's OK - -a good mess of marionberries will do wonders for the angst! Gee, Toto, I don't think we're dealing with Winnie the Pooh anymore! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:09:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Out of Office messages - GRRR In-Reply-To: <199904112344.QAA07573@decibel.electriciti.com> My experience, if not choice of subject lines, is in concert with Martha's opinion. Strongly. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:51:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chandonnet /Soumah Subject: IASC Annual General Meeting INDEXING : FROM PRACTICE TO RESEARCH ... AND BACK! 1999 IASC ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING IASC Annual General Meeting will be held on May 7 and 8 1999 in Montreal, Quebec. An overview of the program is available at: http://esi25.ESI.UMontreal.CA:80/~turner/iasc/agm/AGMen.htm Registration to workshops ends April 30, 1999. Don't miss it! Ginette Chandonnet soumah@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:01:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Out of Office messages - GRRR Properly operating "out of office" messages should only be sent to a recipient ONCE during the out-of-office period, and could probably be configured so as to not be sent to mailing lists, but people have to be aware of how their software works, and how the mailing list messages that are being sent to them are addressed. Another reason for computer literacy for those using computers and e-mail. Iris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:05:36 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: qualifying names Correction: I just realized that in my post of 4/9/99 on this subject I did not clearly describe the problem I was talking about: it's not the problem of "overloading unannotated locators after unmodified names" but the problem of overloading unmodified names with locators referring to undifferentiated topics. Sorry for not getting this clear before posting it. Michael ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:55:31 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: "value-loaded" terms In-Reply-To: > Abortion used to be a neutral term for a process that could have included > natural, non-induced miscarriage. However, last night's newspaper quoted > an anti-abortion proponent who extended it to include contraception. This > goes back to the rant of several months ago when someone wrote, "Words are > what we say they mean." > Diane in Kazoo > As far as I know the medical term for an induced miscarriage is 'termination of pregnancy'. I think if one used 'abortion' in a medical book one would have to qualify it as it might be either spontaneous or induced - two different subjects. Some contraceptives act, or may act, by inducing a miscarriage, if one takes that to mean stopping a pregnancy after fertilization of the ovum. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:03:06 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Out of Office messages - GRRR In-Reply-To: Iris wrote: > Properly operating "out of office" messages should only be sent > to a recipient > ONCE during the out-of-office period, and could probably be > configured so as > to not be sent to mailing lists, but people have to be aware of how their > software works, and how the mailing list messages that are being > sent to them > are addressed. My normal response to out-of-office messages on the computer trainers' mailing list was to send back a chatty reply - via the list - wishing the sender a happy holiday and the very best of luck with the secretary that was going with him/her. The messages were seldom repeated. Jon. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Patton Subject: DC Chapter meeting The Washington DC Chapter of ASI will meet to discuss the Index Process, Saturday, April 24th at AlignMark, (1340 Braddock Place, Suite 400) in Alexandria, VA beginning at 9:30 am. Our speaker will be Alexandra Nickerson who's been freelance indexing from an office outside her home since 1986. For those of us with home offices, we want to know why she finds this arrangement to be cost-effective. We'll also talk about office technology, billing, and a variety of other related topics. We should be done by noon. Alexandra specializes in medical and health-related materials and also indexes software applications books, cookbooks, and textbooks. She's been indexing since 1965. In addition, she is an instructor for the U.S. Department of Agriculture Graduate School basic indexing course. The cost is $15. To register, please send a check made out to DC/ASI to Deborah Patton 1301 W. 42nd Street Baltimore, MD 21211-1508 Questions? 410/243-4688 Directions: By Metro: From Braddock Line Road Metro Station (Blue/Yellow Line), AlignMark is a 2-minute walk. As you exit the station, look left for the brick Braddock Place Arch. Go through the arch and across the plaza to #1340 at the far end. By car: Take Route 1 or the George Washington Memorial (Washington Street) to Alexandria. From the north, turn right onto Madison; from the south turn left onto Madison. Proceed west. Turn right on Fayette, then left onto Braddock Place. Parking: From the Braddock Place cul-de-sac, pass the underground parking entrance and turn right into the entrance marked "hourly parking." Proceed down the drive and park in spaces behind #1340. Alternatively, street parking is available on Fayette, First, and Payne. This is our last meeting for 1998-1999 -- the next meeting for our chapter won't be untill the fall. Hope to see you there, Deborah ============================== Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Vice Chair, Washington, DC Chapter of ASI Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: For the PoliSci folks At 01:03 PM 4/9/99 -0400, you wrote: ... >Well the editor didn't see it the same way. She went ballistic. She made >me eliminate all sorts of terms like > >Sanger, Margaret > support for birth control, 350 > >saying these were "value judgements", and replace them with essentially long >series of undifferentiated locators. So much for a career indexing history >books. > Interestingly this same editor will be giving a talk in Indiana, >making it a no-brainer no-attend for me, as if I would ever have the bucks >anyway! > >Kevin Mulrooney > > Just for yuks, wonder if editor would have same feelings towards indexing the Quayle gaff of spelling potato(e) wrong, or George Bush's infamous blunder "No New Taxes." Some of the pc folks would be apalled if those were omitted. Gotta check up on publishers and media to see if they make exceptions to their own rules ... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:34:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Re: For the PoliSci folks -----Original Message----- From: indexer@INETCOM.NET >Roosevelt, Franklin Delano > ... > claims "all we have to fear is fear itself", 254 > ... >Sanger, Margaret > support for birth control, 350 Speaking as both an editor and an indexer, I might go along with the editor on the Roosevelt entry, to the extent that "claims" can be read as non-neutral. I think I would merely have omitted "claims." On the Sanger entry, even if the editor read "support" as expressing a judgment rather than a fact, why change to "essentially long series of undifferentiated locators"? Why not "views on birth control," etc., or even the often-maligned construction "and birth control"? Carol Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:10:38 EDT Reply-To: Sendx@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita Levy Subject: Out-of-office messages--Sorry! Thanks to all who responded. The one time I received an out-of-office message from somebody I was actually quite grateful to know the person was out-of-town, and was glad to know when I could reasonably expect to make contact. I only intend to use the feature on the screen name I use for clients, not for the one where I receive listserv mail, so it shouldn't affect anyone who responded so vehemently. It is useful to know that the topic creates such strong feelings! Anita Levy Space Coast Indexers Inc. Cocoa Beach, FL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:51:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" Subject: Re: "value-loaded" terms In-Reply-To: <199904120858.EAA09509@nessie.crosslink.net> Diane wrote: >> Abortion used to be a neutral term for a process that could have included >> natural, non-induced miscarriage. However, last night's newspaper quoted >> an anti-abortion proponent who extended it to include contraception. This >> goes back to the rant of several months ago when someone wrote, "Words are >> what we say they mean." >> Diane in Kazoo >> > At 09:55 AM 4/12/99 +0100, J.R. Sampson wrote: >As far as I know the medical term for an induced miscarriage is >'termination of pregnancy'. I think if one used 'abortion' in a medical >book one would have to qualify it as it might be either spontaneous >or induced - two different subjects. > >Some contraceptives act, or may act, by inducing a miscarriage, if >one takes that to mean stopping a pregnancy after fertilization of >the ovum. > >Regards > >_John Sampson_ Ardith writes: Terms are important and I hope this is helpful. Diane's first sentence is correct - to a point. As a general, non-medical term, to abort means to end, cancel or terminate prematurely and can refer to just about anything, a project, a mission, an engagement, etc. This is from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition. A "spontaneous abortion" means a premature birth occurring "naturally" without medical intervention, before the fetus can survive ex utero. However, this is NOT called a "miscarriage." Because of the negative impact the word abortion has now, when a woman has a spontaneous abortion, unless she is a medically trained, we (medical folks) usually say she had a "miscarriage." A spontaneous abortion happens when the fertilized ovum or the fetus is born after only a short time of maturation in utero. If I remember correctly, having been out of the medical field for over 5 years now, this would be the loss of the fetus from the womb before 6 (or so)weeks gestation. It is after this period of time that the loss of the fetus is called a "miscarriage." As Diane said, however, the word abortion once referred to the spontaneous loss of the fetus. A "spontaneous abortion" is probably what Diane meant - never called a miscarriage by medical professionals. She was right about it being non-induced. I am willing to be humbled if I have this information wrong - for the sake of correctness of terms. But, Diane said, "However, last night's newspaper quoted an anti-abortion proponent who extended it to include contraception." Unlike a spontaneous abortion, an "abortion" is the purposeful termination of the life/viability of the fetus caused EITHER by (1)chemicals/drugs or (2)a medical procedure. So, in this case, the "anti-abortion proponent" (or pro-life proponent, depending how you view her/him) is correct if she/he is referring to a form of contraception which chemically induces the loss of the fetus. These are often oral hormones that do not allow the fertilized ovum to implant in the uterine wall and mature into a fetus. However, there are also other oral drugs that destroy the developing fetus in utero and these, too, are called contraceptives. They do not contracept at all. They abort and are correctly termed "abortifacients." The use of the term "contraception" is the misnomer here. The "proponent" was obviously versed on this matter of contraceptives which are truly abortifacients. This is not making words mean what we say they mean. The result is an induced abortion or induced miscarriage, depending on the maturation of the fertilized ovum or fetus (not interchangeable terms, either). This is a medical fact. Most importantly to the discussion on value loaded terms, I agree that the word abortion in an index is totally without a value judgment on the part of the indexer. I thank Kara Pekar and others who have pointed this out. It will be helpful to me in the future. Hope I haven't confused us further.... Ardith Ayotte ABBA Index Services "The subject was roses!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:25:01 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Out of Office messages vs Digest Format In-Reply-To: <199904112336.QAA07893@neti.saber.net> >>> > Another question, does anybody know how to post an "Out of the office" >>> > message on AOL, e.g. when someone sends you E-Mail they get an >>> > automatic message back that you've set up. > > >Don't you DARE! This little perk is fast becoming my personal pet peeve. If a > person is on lists and goes on vacation (or whatever), the courteous thing to > do is postpone so that every single member of a list does not get an > out-of-office message every time the list software distributes mail. So, now > you know. > >To quote the US West Information Operator: Please Make A Note of It. Or perhaps (depending on the length of the vacation) setting the subscription to digest format would consolidate the incoming without missing out. I'm thinking of doing this when i go to ASI National. Naomi *****************************************************************************J. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/indexstudents <--Indexing students e-mail-list. http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/FAQ <--Index-L e-mail list FAQS. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Stumped! Many thanks to all the responses I got to my "Stump the List" query abou t metadata. I am digesting these delicious morsels and should be contacting some of you (individually, if my finger s don't rush ahead of my brain) ... "The details of my life are inconsequential." M. J. Barczak detailed in Washington, D.C. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:00:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Avoiding un-Bear-able volume The RolyBear characteristically "whuffles mildly" rather than growling. Nevertheless, she's in full agreement with the prevailing sentiment about auto-responders on email lists! If you're going to be away, please set all your email lists to "suspend" or "postpone" or "nomail" or whatever keyword stops delivery without actually unsubscribing you. *Especially* please do this if you're enabling an auto-responder for the duration! Otherwise, you may return to find your inbox full of recriminations and your back-issues full of gossip about you. Auto-responders are notorious for replying to the full email list for *each* message they receive! Thank You For Your Consideration. Original Message Follows: Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:53:38 EDTFrom: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Grrrr!Martha - First we have a Rolybear on Index-L, now we have a Growly Bear! Sounds like the Pacific Northwest is getting to be a scary place - allteeth and claws! I guess the bears are just coming out of hibernation andare hungry and grumpy.... But that's OK - -a good mess of marionberrieswill do wonders for the angst! Gee, Toto, I don't think we're dealing with Winnie the Pooh anymore!Bob === RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:25:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Metadata those interested in descriptive metadata and rights metadata might want to have a looksee: http://www.doi.org/mailman/listinfo/metadata/ "The details of my life are inconsequential." M. J. Barczak detailed in Washington, D.C. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:28:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" Subject: Metadata & New AusSi newsletter on Web In-Reply-To: <199904082354.TAA05396@nessie.crosslink.net> Jessie wrote today: "those interested in descriptive metadata and rights metadata might want to have a looksee: http://www.doi.org/mailman/listinfo/metadata/" On 4/9/99 Jon & Glenda wrote: >By the time you read this the AusSI newsletter for April should be available on the Web at >http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/anl/9903apr > >------------------------------ >Jonathan Jermey >Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers >http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi I obediently went to the Aussi website and found an entire section on "metadata." Try it. Ardith Ayotte ABBA Index Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:21:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Metadata & New AusSi newsletter on Web "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" wrote: > > I obediently went to the Aussi website and found > an entire section on "metadata." Try it. ...and the easiest way to find anything on the AusSi web site is Glenda Browne's excellent site index at http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/aussiwebindex.htm --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:53:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: test Anyone there? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:20:16 EDT Reply-To: JPerlman@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: test Pam, List is quiet, but mail is getting through. Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:50:20 EDT Reply-To: Mgendx@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: another indexing market? I have noticed that court reporter services often list "keyword indexing" of court transcripts and depositions among their services. Does any know about this type of indexing? Is it a potential indexing market for a freelance indexer? How are rates usually established? per page? per hour? What might the range be for either? Am I correct in thinking that knowledge of the law is not as important as the ability to understand different subjects? Thanks in advance to all who can offer information. M. Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:10:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: test At 11:53 AM 4/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone there? > > Nope. No one here. M. J. Barczak going nuts in Washington, D.C. "This is me in a nut shell; Help! I'm in a nut shell! how did I get into this nutshell? What kind of nut has a shell like this one?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:35:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: test Yes. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pam Rider [SMTP:prider@ELECTRICITI.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 11:54 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: test > > Anyone there? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:17:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" Subject: Re: test In-Reply-To: <199904142027.QAA19275@nessie.crosslink.net> At 04:10 PM 4/14/99 -0400, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: >At 11:53 AM 4/14/99 -0700, you wrote: > >>Anyone there? > >> > >> > >Nope. No one here. > > > > >M. J. Barczak > >going nuts in > >Washington, D.C. > > >"This is me in a nut shell; Help! I'm in a nut shell! how did I >get into this nutshell? What kind of nut has a shell like this >one?" > Eerie. . . .Is this what Y2K will be like for some who haven't taken precautions? Actually, in Northern Virginia yesterday a construction cut a very important wire and all of No. Va. and even to Central Virginia were CUT OFF. It was strange. Back to normal(?) this morning, though. Ardith ABBA Index Svcs. King George, VA (East of Fredericksburg) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:28:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blythe Woolston Subject: Cindex for Mac question I just sent my first index off to the publisher. It was written in Cindex for Mac, saved as RTF with Windows/DOS conventions, and opened in MSWord. The publishers have a macro they run on all the indexes. When they run it on mine, the whole index comes up as Index 1 (What they call main entries). I had set the fields as Index 1, Index 2, and Page. What am I missing here? The people who run the macros don't know what happens when they do, and I can think of any more settings to fool with. By the way, writing the index itself was fun. It fairly zipped along. On the other hand, this file transmittal problem is like doing taxes. You can reply off-list if you think this is useless to the general readership. Blythe Woolston picapica@pacbell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:53:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, RT" Subject: Re: this is a test, do not change your screen, this is only a test >>Anyone there? > >Nope. No one here. > >M. J. Barczak > >going nuts in > >Washington, D.C. > Eerie. . . .Is this what Y2K will be like for some who haven't taken precautions? Actually, in Northern Virginia yesterday a construction cut a very important wire and all of No. Va. and even to Central Virginia were CUT OFF. It was strange. Back to normal(?) this morning, though. Ardith ABBA Index Svcs. King George, VA (East of Fredericksburg) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:27:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Cindex for Mac question In-Reply-To: <199904141827.rha5il.p1.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> Whatever their macro did, it managed to change all your styles in the output RTF file to "Index 1." Before running the macro, if you used Cindex to save as RTF, each of your level 1's should have been styled as Index 1, and each level 2 as Index 2. Cindex is really intelligent about saving and applying Word-based styles in the RTF file. They need to learn more about their macro before running it, because it could be that your file didn't need some portions of the macro run on it at all. Their problem, not yours, as far as I can tell. Jan Wright At 03:28 PM 4/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >I just sent my first index off to the publisher. It was written in >Cindex for Mac, saved as RTF with Windows/DOS conventions, and opened >in MSWord. The publishers have a macro they run on all the indexes. >When they run it on mine, the whole index comes up as Index 1 (What >they call main entries). I had set the fields as Index 1, Index 2, >and Page. What am I missing here? > >The people who run the macros don't know what happens when they do, >and I can think of any more settings to fool with. > >By the way, writing the index itself was fun. It fairly zipped along. >On the other hand, this file transmittal problem is like doing taxes. > >You can reply off-list if you think this is useless to the general >readership. > >Blythe Woolston >picapica@pacbell =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:41:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blythe Woolston Subject: Re: Cindex for Mac question Jan: Thanks for the reality check. I am lucky enough to be close enough to visit them tomorrow in person tomorrow. I'll hand deliver the index file and talk to the mysterious, great, and all powerful people-behind-the-curtain who created the macro. When I do, I can say with confidence that Cindex saves and applies Word-based styles. Then I'll try and find out what the macro is supposed to do. On the positive side: I start my next index for them tomorrow. Thanks for the help. Blythe Woolston picapica@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:48:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blythe Woolston Subject: Doh! List members: I just sent a message to the list that was intended for Jan Wright. I'm not proud, just punchy. Nothing like making my debut with a toilet paper comet streaming behind me. Blythe Woolston picapica@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:49:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: test > Actually, in Northern Virginia yesterday a construction cut a very > important wire and all of No. Va. and even to Central Virginia were CUT OFF. > > It was strange. Back to normal(?) this morning, though. According to my ISP, a large fiber optic cable was cut, probably by a backhoe or something. As far as the local ISP guy knew, that knocked out us (Crosslink) and some of AOL as well. It happened midday eastern time, and wasn't fixed until well into the night. You don't realize how you've come to depend on email until you can't reach anybody. I'm only glad I wasn't supposed to email an index yesterday! Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net