From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Thu Dec 24 18:09:16 1998 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:45:27 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Ilana Kingsley Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9810E" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:30:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cindex and the mouse << The mouse does facilitate Windows operations that cannot be performed in DOS, such as...text from a word processor file into an index entry.>> Actually, I just found out how to do this one (and its opposite, from index into word processor) in Macrex. It's very slightly more cumbersome than copying text between Windows programs, but not much, and I've found it easy enough that I use it regularly to copy proper names to my publisher letter (ie not just for very long chunks of text). Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:08:55 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Why home pages are called INDEX.HTM/L In-Reply-To: <05051774107798@domain1.bigpond.com> Nancy Guenther wrote: >Another problem I'm aware of after attending a workshop on Web page >development >is the way in which Web page creators have used the word "index" to mean >something totally different from what we as indexers do. At the workshop, the >demonstrator repeatedly referred to her "index page" and only towards the end >did I realize that she was meaning her home page. If you check many (most?) >ISPs that offer Web sites the initial page in many cases has the name >"index.html" Another area where we need to educate . This convention is inherited from the days of FTP servers on the Internet. An FTP program would take you to a particular specified computer (e.g. ftp.syduni.edu.au) and to a particular directory in that computer (e.g. usr/download/DOS/games) where, if you were lucky, you would find a file called INDEX.TXT. Downloading that file and opening it on your own computer would show you a (man-made) alphabetical list of the files in that directory with a brief description of each one, so that you could identify and download the file(s) you were looking for. Thus INDEX.TXT was the first file you looked at in the directory. Although it wasn't really an index in the conceptual sense, it was a bit closer to it than the current usage of INDEX.HTM/L, which is the default Web page that appears when you specify a directory name but not a Web page file name. Microsoft have (as usual) gone their own merry way here, preferring the name DEFAULT.HTM/L for these pages on Web sites using the MS Webserver software - I can't really see this as an improvement. No doubt things will sort themselves out eventually. Jonathan Jermey Moderator Web indexing mailing list (http://WINDMAIL.listbot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:44:16 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginner rates, revisited (but short and mellow) I was going to write something similar to what Susan Hernandez wrote, but she did a much better job than I would have done. My experience has been much the same as hers. If I held out for $3 a page I wouldn't be indexing. It should be kept in mind that medical schools try to regulate the number of doctors that they graduate so that the field does not get flooded. Naturally, this helps keep the salaries up. Needless to say, this situation finds no counterpart in the indexing field. Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:55:46 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael J. Heary" Subject: Beginner rates This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01BE032A.AF5BEEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm an experienced indexer (over 10 years) and quite happily take on = work that pays =A31 a page (about $1.70). I use Macrex and I'm fast and = can turn that into =A320+ an hour - $30+ or so). The more indexes you = do, the faster and better you get (otherwise you'd pack it in and do = something else). Of course beginners expect to get paid less - that's = true of all professions. Michael J. Heary Indexer 42 Electric Avenue Harrogate HG1 2BB England ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01BE032A.AF5BEEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm an experienced indexer (over 10 = years) and=20 quite happily take on work that pays £1 a page (about $1.70). I = use Macrex=20 and I'm fast and can turn that into £20+ an hour - $30+ or so). = The more=20 indexes you do, the faster and better you get (otherwise you'd pack it = in and do=20 something else). Of course beginners expect to get paid less - that's = true of=20 all professions.
 
Michael J. Heary
Indexer
42 = Electric=20 Avenue
Harrogate HG1 2BB
England
------=_NextPart_000_007C_01BE032A.AF5BEEA0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 08:09:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: linguistics specialists If you are an indexer with a specialization in linguistics texts, would you please contact me, off-list, as soon as possible. Thank you. Barbara Stroup ********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:09:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fred Brown Subject: Re: ergonomics Like Pam Rider, I also use the Kinesis Ergonomic Keyboard. I went one = step further and switched to the Dvorak keyboard layout as well. I = really like the feel of the keyboard. There have also been a couple = laboratory studies that demonstrate it's effectiveness in reducing the = strain associated with typing. I found adjusting to the keyboard's split design and light touch fairly = easy. The keyboard also moves the Enter, Delete, Backspace, Alt, and = Control keys from the little fingers to the thumbs, which are stronger = than the little fingers. While I found the keyboard's physical design = fairly easy to adjust to, it took a full summer to adapt to the Dvorak = keyboard layout and recover my rather poor typing speed. Fortunately, I = was mostly editing technical documents, which demands much less typing = than does indexing. Now, two years later, I'm very happy with the change = and continue to steadily gain speed and accuracy. The Dvorak keyboard layout reduces finger movement by about two thirds = by placing the most heavily used keys on the home row. The QUERTY = keyboard, on the other hand, was designed to maximize finger movement in = order to prevent typists from jamming the early mechanical typewriters = -- it worked and the QUERTY keyboard layout became the standard. Now, when I work on-site, I have to bring my keyboard with me because = I'm literally all thumbs on a standard keyboard. And if I spend too much = time on a QUERTY keyboard, I start to lose accuracy on my Dvorak = keyboard. While I'm more than satisfied with the change to my new = keyboard, I definitely feel married to it. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fred Brown McCrae Consulting Associates "effective business and technical documentation" Email: fredb@cyberus.ca Web: http://www.cyberus.ca/~fredb Phone: 613-728-5761 Fax: 613-728-9373 Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1Y 0N8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:13:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Valerie Brooks Subject: Re: Beginner rates, revisited (also long and ranty) Susan, As a beginner as well, all I have to say about your post is "Amen!" Valerie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:47:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: Re: Y2K Compliance Hi, The simple date test described by Joanne Clendenen and Michael K. Smith will detect ONE of the potential problems which could lurk in your hardware, BIOS, and software. I recommend contacting vendors directly about their products and Y2K. Most hardware and software vendors who maintain web pages or technical support phone operations now have information available. Here are two links: http://www.apple.com/macos/info/2000.html http://www.microsoft.com/y2k/ Regards, Larry Harrison [spam-proof return address: remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barczak, Jessie" Subject: Re: Y2K Compliance Larry, thank you so much...I have'nt even begun to think about the millenium bug and it almost bit me ... M. Jessie Barczak Research Analyst Powell Tate Washington 202-434-8533 jbarczak@washington.com > -----Original Message----- > From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM [SMTP:larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM] > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 10:48 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Y2K Compliance > > Hi, > > The simple date test described by Joanne Clendenen and Michael K. Smith > will detect ONE of the potential problems which could lurk in your > hardware, BIOS, and software. I recommend contacting vendors directly > about > their products and Y2K. Most hardware and software vendors who maintain > web > pages or technical support phone operations now have information > available. > > Here are two links: > > http://www.apple.com/macos/info/2000.html > > http://www.microsoft.com/y2k/ > > Regards, > Larry Harrison > [spam-proof return address: remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:59:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Beginner rates, revisited (also long and ranty) Excellent rant! Susan D. Hernandez wrote: > I know this subject was brought up over a week ago, but part of Lynn's > response to it has bothered me a bit all week. I agree with her that you > shouldn't claim to be an indexer until you have practiced alot and are > honest with yourself about your progress. I agree with her that you > shouldn't present yourself to publishers as "a new indexer" (they will > figure it out when they see your resume, and hopefully forget about that > when they see your samples). And I agree with her that we should be paid > a fair price for a good product. > I disagree, however, with the implication that a person who is new in > this field should turn down jobs that pay low. In any field, a > businessperson who is just starting out needs a edge - a person with no > professional indexing experience does not have any advantage over a > person with years of indexing experience - except in the price she is > willing to accept. > Every publisher I have called who pays $3 per page says they have a > long list of indexers already. The publishers who pay less than that > have a short list of indexers. Where do I have the better chance of > being picked? > If I held out for only $3 per page indexes the number of > professional indexes I would have done would be zero. None. The null set. > As it stands, however (by swallowing some pride and initial > indignation), I accepted lower wages and got jobs. Quite a few, > actually. I work hard on my indexes and (invoking some of Lynn's > chutzpa) I do a good job. They are getting a bargain. And they know it > - so they call me often. > And what do I get? I GET PAID FOR INDEXING! I also get tremendous > experience, a resume that is getting too long for one page, some > encouraging feedback, and an awful lot of (possibly useful) trivia from > reading books that are, for the most part, pretty interesting (well, I'll > give you that "New Uses for the Poisson Distribution" was not a high > point). > But don't think I don't mutter to myself about my lot of low wages > and long hours. I don't intend for my career to remain where it is price > wise. I periodically send updated resumes to previous contacts and make > marketing calls whenever I get a chance. Other editors and production > managers do not know what I am getting paid now, and when the subject of > rates comes up I quote a range much higher than what I'm getting now. > Once those higher paying jobs start coming in, I can wean myself of the > low paying jobs. (And when my current clients start noticing that I have > moved on to higher paying jobs, they might be able to convince the > Exulted Rate Setter at their publishing house that a good indexer is > worth paying more for.) > A doctor starting her own practice doesn't charge "beginner rates" > because she has years of schooling and internships during which she > learned her profession. How much did she get paid as an intern? Not > very much, despite being a degreed Doctor. > So, my advice to beginning indexers is: take whatever jobs you can > get, and do your best work on each one, no matter what the pay. They > will notice, and your professional reputation will benefit well from it. > > End of rant. > > - Susan > > *************************************** > Susan Danzi Hernandez > BookEnd Indexing > susanhernandez@juno.com > bookend@sprynet.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:09:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jan Williams Subject: Re: linguistics specialists Hi Barbara, I may be a linguistics specialist.... have worked in psycholinguistics for many years. What do you need? Jan Williams jan.williams@valley.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: wrist support These fingerless gloves are sold in yarn shops, because knitters need wrist support, too. They're made by Nikken, a Japanese company. Someone on Techknit, who swears by magnets and uses the gloves to hold the magnets in place during two consecutive sleep cycles, listed three sources for the gloves: * your local yarn shop (probably not a chain) * Harmony catalogue (1-800-869-3446 in North America) * Inner Balance catalogue (1-800-482-3608 in North America) You could also knit up a pair quickly, or persuade a knitter to do it. Just do a swatch and make a tight fingerless glove, perhaps with i-cord tubes for boning, which you can buy at a fabric store. Knit the thumb gusset, but not the thumb, and stop above the fingers. If any indexer wants to try this, I'll make one for myself, in stockinette with seed-stitch borders, and write it up -- or try it with your favorite mitten or glove pattern, one size down. I'll try one with and one without tubes for boning. This can be my New Year's present to the list; if interested, contact me privately. Cheers, Deborah shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:17:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Geography Question Several people I know indicate that the CIA World Fact Book is considered the authority on country names and other geographical information. You can find the 1997 book at the following site. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html> You can also try Medline as the Z tree is a geographical tree. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:51:13 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: CHAT: Children & indexes Cynthia wrote: "From the perspective of a Children's Librarian/Indexer, it seems that kids really do know how to use book indexes (for the few times that they go to books instead of the Internet) even if they don't know how to use the OPAC, Dewey Decimal, or those dusty periodical indexes." This week I helped my 8-year old son's class do research for projects (they have each chosen a country to study). All of them could use an index - the greatest frustration was when the index was inadequate. A while back I was in the local library and my son said "Hey, they use the 900s for History here just like they do at school". Obviously he had learnt how to use Dewey in one library, but hadn't realised that the same system was used elsewhere. Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:51:22 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Beginners' rates One reason for charging beginners' rates, where hourly payment is concerned, is that beginners often work more slowly than experienced indexers. As a publisher I may get an equally good index from A and B, but A takes twenty hours to do it while B takes ten. Obviously if A wants the work then (until she speeds up) she's going to have to quote less than half of B's hourly rate. I've commented elsewhere about the dodgy assumption underlying recommended hourly rates - that everyone produces the same amount of work in the same time. In indexing, at least, this is demonstrably untrue. Jonathan =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal Diagonal@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:51:24 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Beginner rates, revisited (also long and ranty) In-Reply-To: <06025389069447@domain1.bigpond.com> Quoting in the US seems to be simpler than in Australia. Here there is no standard per page rate (nor even a range of per page rates that I am aware of). We base our quotes on a recommended hourly rate (currently Aus$35 per hour; of course some charge more and some charge less) and prepare a quote for every book we index. It is pretty difficult to know how fast you work compared to other indexers, and therefore how your quotes compare with other indexers' quotes. Susan D. Hernandez wrote: > If I held out for only $3 per page indexes the number of > professional indexes I would have done would be zero. None. The null set. > As it stands, however (by swallowing some pride and initial > indignation), I accepted lower wages and got jobs. One thing that frustrates me about quoting for editors is when I can see no rhyme or reason in the budget they have available for indexing. For one book my quote might be readily accepted; for another they might ask me to do less and charge less. But to be fair, my own quoting is probably somewhat erratic. If my schedule is free, if the book sounds great, if the book is well structured, perhaps I quote less. If the book is 1,000 pages on Advanced Accounting, or a short treatise on Poisson distributions, perhaps I charge more. If beginner's charge the same per page rate they will almost inevitably earn less per hour, because they will work more slowly. In addition, if I was a beginner I would certainly take less money to get the experience. I have been indexing for 10 years, but recently prepared my first quote for a *periodical* index, and quoted at the lower end of my range because I wanted the job. I got the job and it was terrific experience. (And in fact, it paid fine per hour as well, perhaps thanks to SkyIndex speeding my data entry up). Well, that was my medium-length rant. Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:40:43 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates I got an hourly rate on my first index and simply didn't charge for the time I spent fumbling with the software or reviewing basic techniques. Some estimation was necessary, of course, but I avoided quoting an explicit beginners' rate. And I still tend to think this is my best index delivered at a fair price. Per page rates are solely in the interest of the publisher. Neither the experience of the indexer nor the nature of the subject matter is taken into account. Such rates are not much different from the piece work that used to characterize factory operations. I did an index for a book in a field in which I have an advanced degree. It still took me 35 hours to do. I got paid about $350. Needless to say, I was not fully aware of the nature of this project when I agreed to take it on and will be more careful in the future. The publisher got a real bargain on that one. Nick Koenig Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: > > One reason for charging beginners' rates, where hourly payment is concerned, > is that beginners often work more slowly than experienced indexers. As a > publisher I may get an equally good index from A and B, but A takes twenty > hours to do it while B takes ten. Obviously if A wants the work then (until > she speeds up) she's going to have to quote less than half of B's hourly > rate. > > I've commented elsewhere about the dodgy assumption underlying recommended > hourly rates - that everyone produces the same amount of work in the same > time. In indexing, at least, this is demonstrably untrue. > > Jonathan > =================================== > Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne > Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring > http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal > Diagonal@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:01:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Nicholas wrote: << Per page rates are solely in the interest of the publisher. Neither the experience of the indexer nor the nature of the subject matter is taken into account. Such rates are not much different from the piece work that used to characterize factory operations. >> I disagree! Per page rates make it possible to work at my fast rate and not end up earning less money. They also make it possible for me to earn more per hour than publishers would (I assume) be willing to pay me straight out--which enables me to earn a decent living, taking overhead and self-employment taxes into account. Per page rates, which do take the nature and complexity of the book into account, make the speed at which I do the job my own business. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:01:40 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates To Everyone: I agree with Do Mi. I raise my rates because my cost of living increases, because my abilities increase, because my speed and expertise increases. If more indexers would stop accepting low rates, then we would all benefit. Why should a publisher pay a higher professional rate when he/she can get a lower less professional rate? Let's not offer the lower less professional rate (for those who consider themselves professionals, of course). Rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:43:54 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: Beginners' rates I agree! But the main reason I hate getting paid by the hour is this: I have 2 young kids at home and tend to get interrupted a lot. Or I'll have snatches of free time that last as long as, say, one episode of Barney. It's a real drag clocking in and out, in and out. As a general rule, I much prefer getting paid by the entry, page, or project! Bonnie Taylor << Per page rates make it possible to work at my fast rate and not end up earning less money. They also make it possible for me to earn more per hour than publishers would (I assume) be willing to pay me straight out--which enables me to earn a decent living, taking overhead and self-employment taxes into account. Per page rates, which do take the nature and complexity of the book into account, make the speed at which I do the job my own business. >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:25:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates > I agree with Do Mi. I raise my rates because my cost of living >increases, because my abilities increase, because my speed and >expertise >increases. If more indexers would stop accepting low rates, then we >would all benefit. Why should a publisher pay a higher professional >rate when he/she can get a lower less professional rate? Let's not >offer the lower less professional rate (for those who consider >themselves professionals, of course). > > Rob > fugleman@mindspring.com > And who decides what a "professonal" rate is? The issue shouldn't be indexers saying "I am a professional so you should pay me more." The issue is indexers saying "I am a professional, I offer you a quality service and product, and this is what I feel it is worth." The rate you get is what the market will bear. A lower rate is not "less professional." A poorly written index is less professional. Not every indexer is a full time freelancer who is paying all the bills. According to last year's ASI salary survey, the majority (32.7%) of indexers make less than $5000 per year. Many are part timer workers who, I imagine, are happy with occasional indexing jobs from a regular (perhaps low paying) client that doesn't require any extra marketing efforts. I might be working for that same client now, too, but if I'm willing to put in some marketing effort, than I won't have to stay there if I don't want to. We can not get together and set rates - unless we form a union or don't mind landing in jail for price fixing. I'm glad to know there are publishers that pay $3 per page and more. I'm on their list, and some day they will work their way down to me. But, to quote an old Southern friend, "my momma didn't raise no fool," and I'm not going to sit on my hands doing nothing in the meantime. If mid-town auto shop B notices that uptown auto shop A is getting $75 for the same tune-up job auto shop B charges $50 for, B might decide to raise his/her rates. Some B customers, liking the work B does and not wanting to shop around, will pay the new price. Others will think the price increase is too much and will shop around and go to downtown auto shop C, which still charges $50. (B and C could also get together and agree to charge what A charges. But that would be illegal, and would no doubt result in customers doing their own tune ups.) Customers at A, B, and C still get their cars tuned up. Sometimes A does the best job, sometimes C does the best job. They all have their loyal customers - because of quality, convenience, price, or some combination of all three. But everyone still gets their car tuned up. The customer gets to choose. It's the way the market works, and indexing is no different. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:40:36 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Of course, if an indexer can get different rates per page depending on subject matter, it is much to his/her advantage. I'm sure that is done, but I have yet to do it myself. I admit that I hadn't thought of the speed issue. I guess some of us had better start putting the pedal to the metal. DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > > Nicholas wrote: > > << Per page rates are solely in the interest of the publisher. Neither the > experience of the indexer nor the nature of the subject matter is taken into > account. Such rates are not much different from the piece work that used to > characterize factory > operations. >> > > I disagree! Per page rates make it possible to work at my fast rate and not > end up earning less money. They also make it possible for me to earn more per > hour than publishers would (I assume) be willing to pay me straight out--which > enables me to earn a decent living, taking overhead and self-employment taxes > into account. Per page rates, which do take the nature and complexity of the > book into account, make the speed at which I do the job my own business. > > Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:49:35 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates I need to make a few comments here. Robert A. Saigh wrote: > > To Everyone: > > I agree with Do Mi. I raise my rates because my cost of living > increases, because my abilities increase, because my speed and expertise > increases. If more indexers would stop accepting low rates, then we > would all benefit. In the long run or the short run? In the long run we are all dead. The economic conditions of indexers may vary enough to make such general claims imprudent. Why should a publisher pay a higher professional > rate when he/she can get a lower less professional rate? Because the publisher knows that the indexer will provide a good product with no hassle. The publisher might not be willing trust a rush project to something not known (happened to me actually). Let's not > offer the lower less professional rate (for those who consider > themselves professionals, of course). > Let me make sure I have this straight. Only those who offer higher, "professional" rates are professionals? > Rob > fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:11:15 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810300528.VAA01302@pacific.net> > Not every indexer is a full time freelancer who is paying all the >bills. According to last year's ASI salary survey, the majority (32.7%) >of indexers make less than $5000 per year. I just need to point out that the ASI salary survey was not a scientific survey and should not be relied upon too heavily. It may be that indexers making less than $5000 a year have more time to read journals and respond to surveys. We have no idea how the results of the survey actually reflect the real world; it is only some information. And for myself, I don't believe I've ever accepted less than $2.75/page except for the volunteer work I did, and I started in 1990. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:38:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barczak, Jessie" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Couldn't you just estimate? Why the stickler for actual time? In my real job (9 to 5 outside of home) we have to keep time and we always "estimate" within guidelines. M. J. Barczak Washington, DC > -----Original Message----- > From: Bonnie Taylor [SMTP:Bonald@AOL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 9:44 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Beginners' rates > > I agree! But the main reason I hate getting paid by the hour is this: I > have 2 > young kids at home and tend to get interrupted a lot. Or I'll have > snatches of > free time that last as long as, say, one episode of Barney. It's a real > drag > clocking in and out, in and out. As a general rule, I much prefer getting > paid > by the entry, page, or project! > > Bonnie Taylor > > << Per page rates make it possible to work at my fast rate and not > end up earning less money. They also make it possible for me to earn more > per > hour than publishers would (I assume) be willing to pay me straight > out--which > enables me to earn a decent living, taking overhead and self-employment > taxes > into account. Per page rates, which do take the nature and complexity of > the > book into account, make the speed at which I do the job my own business. > >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:14:07 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Beginner rates, revisited (also long and ranty) In-Reply-To: <199810292355.SAA10731@mail1.bellsouth.net> |-----Original Message----- |Quoting in the US seems to be simpler than in Australia. Here there is no |standard per page rate (nor even a range of per page rates that I am aware |of). We base our quotes on a recommended hourly rate (currently Aus$35 per |hour; of course some charge more and some charge less) and prepare a quote |for every book we index. It is pretty difficult to know how fast you work |compared to other indexers, and therefore how your quotes compare |with other indexers' quotes. We quote both ways in the U.S., too -- per page or per hour. For my own purposes, I reckon my "average" speed (whatever that may mean) at 10pp./hour, so my generic rate of $3.00/page equals more or less $30/hour. I often work faster than that, but some of the stuff I do (such as technical philosophy or psychology) is a good deal slower, so it all averages out. Quoting a per-page rate allows the editor to know pretty closely in advance what the total damage is going to be. But only twice or thrice in 15 years have I been asked to submit a formal quote. Usually, there's simply not time -- the editors I deal with want to send me the pages the next day! |One thing that frustrates me about quoting for editors is when I can see no |rhyme or reason in the budget they have available for indexing. For one book |my quote might be readily accepted; for another they might ask me to do less |and charge less. But to be fair, my own quoting is probably somewhat |erratic. If my schedule is free, if the book sounds great, if the book is |well structured, perhaps I quote less. If the book is 1,000 pages on |Advanced Accounting, or a short treatise on Poisson distributions, |perhaps I charge more. I think it has very little to do with the density or difficulty of the text -- with a commercial publisher, it's the expected or predicted profit margin that determines how much overhead the publisher (and therefore the editor) is willing to spend on overhead. I do a lot of work for university presses, and their motivation is different; they also seem willing to spend more to get a really thorough index. (And they seldom pre-set a limit on the length, which is nice; they leave it to me to index the work "enough".) Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:16:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810300111.RAA21622@decibel.electriciti.com> I agree completely with Do Mi. I charge by entry, which I interpret as another form of per page rate. I find I am more rewarded by being efficient. If a manuscript is dense, the per page rate goes up. If it's less complicated, I'm billing less per page and at a fair rate for simple material. There are pluses and minuses of all forms of payment. I just like to be able to base my billing on objectively countable elements. When I have to turn down jobs, I know my customers check out new names on their lists of available indexers--I am delighted that you are there! It takes pressure off me. My customers know my work and are not going to dump me because a newcomer charges less. None of us is indispensible, but more often than not dispendsibility is based on quality of product than of billing. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Web Indexing Hits the News!!! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE03F1.14A96500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey everyone: Check out this article on Web indexing in Editors & Publishers = Interactive: http://www.mediainfo.com/ Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE03F1.14A96500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey everyone:
 
Check out this article on Web = indexing in=20 Editors & Publishers Interactive:
http://www.mediainfo.com/
 
Kevin A. Broccoli
Broccoli Information = Management
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE03F1.14A96500-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:26:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: [CE-L] QUERY: indexing resource In-Reply-To: <3639C702.CEC648AF@chuma.cas.usf.edu> _Chicago Manual of Style_ provides excellent guidelines for index style. There's also _Indexing Books_ by Nancy c. Melvany, ISBN 0-226-55014-1 (cloth), University of Chicago Press. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:41:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Macrex question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE03FA.429C4F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone know how to sort a number so that it appears before the a's in = the index in Macrex? Everytime I enter the number, 1149, it says that the first character is = not valid. Usually in Macrex you put the character/s in brackets, ex: = {1149} is you want it to be ignored. However it is saying that it = doesn't recognize the "{" Kevin Broccoli ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE03FA.429C4F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone know how to sort a number so = that it=20 appears before the a's in the index in Macrex?
 
Everytime I enter the number, 1149, = it says that=20 the first character is not valid.  Usually in Macrex you put the=20 character/s in brackets, ex: {1149} is you want it to be ignored.  = However=20 it is saying that it doesn't recognize the "{"
 
Kevin = Broccoli
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE03FA.429C4F00-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:42:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: computer term This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another question people: Does anyone know what the spelled out version for the following term is: PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor family I can't find it anywhere. Kevin Broccoli ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another question = people:
 
Does anyone know what the spelled = out version=20 for the following term is:
 
PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor = family
 
I can't find it = anywhere.
 
Kevin = Broccoli
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:49:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Duhon Subject: Re: computer term In-Reply-To: <199810301639.LAA01535@indiana.edu> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > > Another question people: > > Does anyone know what the spelled out version for the following term is: > > PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor family > Reduced Instruction Set Computer "processors designed to carry out a limited number of simple instructions very quickly" Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary Susan ______________________________________________________________ Susan T. Duhon Indiana University Axolotl Colony Phone 812-855-8260 Jordan Hall 407 Fax 812-855-6705 Bloomington, IN 47405 USA email duhon@indiana.edu http://www.indiana.edu/~axolotl/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Re: computer term This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE0426.2CF8C332 Content-Type: text/plain Kevin, RISC is Reduced Instruction Set Computer. A great resource for this type of this is: http://webopedia.internet.com/ You'll find more info about RISC and other computer-related terms there. Have fun! Marsha Lofthouse TargetSmart! The Power of Smart Business http://www.targetsmart.com mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE0426.2CF8C332 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: computer term

Kevin, =

RISC is = Reduced Instruction Set Computer.

A great = resource for this type of this is:

http://webopedia.internet.com/

You'll find = more info about RISC and other computer-related terms there.

Have = fun!

Marsha Lofthouse
TargetSmart! The Power of Smart = Business
http://www.targetsmart.com
mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com=

------ =_NextPart_001_01BE0426.2CF8C332-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:00:04 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: computer term Kevin, If you click on the link on this page, you can infer more about what the entire phrase, using the acronym definition that Susan posted, means, perhaps? Motorola SPS Products http://mot-sps.com/sps/General/chips-new.html Jackie Flenner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:03:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Aldrich Subject: Re: computer term RISC means Reduced Instruction Set Computer, according to my Computer Encyc. it is a "computer architecture that reduces chip complexity by using simpler instructions. RISC compilers have to generate software routines to perform complex instructions thate were previously done in hardware by CISC routines. In RISC, the microcode layer and associated overhead is eliminated...." CISC is a Complex Instruction Set Computer. My first post! Nancy Aldrich ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:44:24 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810300528.AAA25849@mail3.bellsouth.net> |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Susan D. |Hernandez |Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 11:26 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: Beginners' rates | We can not get together and set rates - unless we form a union or |don't mind landing in jail for price fixing. I'm glad to know there are |publishers that pay $3 per page and more. I'm on their list, and some |day they will work their way down to me. But, to quote an old Southern |friend, "my momma didn't raise no fool," and I'm not going to sit on my |hands doing nothing in the meantime. | |- Susan Susan, I have to say that even when I was doing this stuff part-time (through the end of 1997, actually), I declined to underprice myself -- and I cheerfully admit that only I am the judge of what my work is "worth." But I ALSO have to say that there are several publishers for whom I've been doing indexing (and copyediting) for a number of years, and from whom I routinely get $3.00/page -- whom I know are also paying certain other indexers of my acquaintance rather less than that for what I have reason to believe is very similar work (in terms of subject matter and complexity). No, I won't say which publishers or which indexers! But I've privately encouraged at least one colleague to raise his rates in dealing with a particular publisher, and he was delighted to get an increased rate with no questions asked and no extended justification required. Which I can only assume means that some publishers are willing to pay as little as they can get away with to different freelancers for the same work -- which also means, I guess, that in order to pay me the rate *I* ask, they're willing to UNDERpay someone else.... This makes me a little uncomfortable at times -- but not much and not often. Just don't anyone expect charging what they *think* "the market will bear" to result in an even playing field for all of us. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:51:19 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810301342.IAA03082@mail2.bellsouth.net> |Couldn't you just estimate? Why the stickler for actual time? In my real |job (9 to 5 outside of home) we have to keep time and we always "estimate" |within guidelines. | |M. J. Barczak |Washington, DC It's difficult to estimate accurately, consistently, if you're handling more than one job at once. (Which, obviously, I'm not doing at the moment or I wouldn't have time to write posts!) I use a little shareware program called TRAXTIME, which is very simple to use, very cheap, and lets you manage multiple jobs/clients/whatever. When it gets hectic, I sometimes forget to clock out or in, or I forget to change clients, and *then* I have to do a little estimating. I also let the clock run while I'm doing a first quick-read or wrapping a ms for UPS, so I've also been able build up a pretty good idea how much REAL time a job is going to require before I've gotten very far into it. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:49:36 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: computer term Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > > Does anyone know the spelled out version for the following term? > > PowerPC RISC microprocessor family "PowerPC" doesn't get spelled out--it's a proper name. "RISC" stands for "reduced instruction set computing," a processor technology vastly superior to the aging behemoths produced by Intel. (Not that I have a preference, mind you!) ;) --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:57:19 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810301524.KAA02383@mail2.bellsouth.net> Pam, never having charged per-entry, I have to ask: Do you count the FINAL entries in the index you submit? Or the number you input the first time through, before weeding and editing? Perhaps I tend to over-index certain kinds of books, but some publishers routinely set a limit that's just too low for what *I* consider a good index and I end up having to trim by perhaps 20%. I've also done some rather thick books that had relatively few entries per page (art history, f'rinstance), and vice versa (such as thin philosophy books), so I'm not sure I could reliably estimate how many entries a given book is going to require just by looking at it. So, what's the process in counting your entries? Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Pam Rider |Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 9:17 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: Beginners' rates | | |I agree completely with Do Mi. I charge by entry, which I interpret as |another form of per page rate. I find I am more rewarded by being |efficient. | |If a manuscript is dense, the per page rate goes up. If it's less |complicated, I'm billing less per page and at a fair rate for |simple material. | |There are pluses and minuses of all forms of payment. I just like to be |able to base my billing on objectively countable elements. | |When I have to turn down jobs, I know my customers check out new names on |their lists of available indexers--I am delighted that you are there! It |takes pressure off me. My customers know my work and are not going to dump |me because a newcomer charges less. None of us is indispensible, but more |often than not dispendsibility is based on quality of product than of |billing. |Pam Rider |Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth |prider@electriciti.com |prider@tsktsk.com | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: computer term I'm not sure what PowerPC RISC is exactly; however, I'm familiar with PA-RISC: Palo Alto Reduced Instruction Set Computer. John Sullivan Stratus Computer > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin A. Broccoli [SMTP:brocindx@CATSKILL.NET] > Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 11:43 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: computer term > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Another question people: > > Does anyone know what the spelled out version for the following term is: > > PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor family > > I can't find it anywhere. > > Kevin Broccoli > > ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
Another question = > people:
>
 
>
Does anyone know what the spelled = > out version=20 > for the following term is:
>
 
>
PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor = > family
>
 
>
I can't find it = > anywhere.
>
 
>
Kevin = > Broccoli
> > ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720-- > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:08:40 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Victoria Baker writes: >> Not every indexer is a full time freelancer who is paying all the >>bills. According to last year's ASI salary survey, the majority >(32.7%) >>of indexers make less than $5000 per year. > >I just need to point out that the ASI salary survey was not a >scientific >survey and should not be relied upon too heavily. It may be that >indexers >making less than $5000 a year have more time to read journals and >respond >to surveys. I misstated (miswrote?) this statistic. 32.7% isn't a majority, so allow me to rephrase this: Almost a third of the surveyed indexers say they make less than $5000 per year. To quote the survey further, when the numbers are added up, about 54% (there's that majority!) report they make less than $20,000 per year. That isn't an extravagant living wage, and they have their own reasons for taking the jobs they take. Now, according to the survey, 2 people responded that they make over $100,000 per year in indexing and indexing-related activities. They had time to respond! To most people (definitely myself included), that is a pretty decent living wage. But, depending on what their mortgage is and how many Suburbans they own, some people might not think that is a reasonable amount of money. It's all relative, and we all have made informed choices about what career we want to engage in. And we all get something a little different out of it. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:14:11 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810301803.KAA10572@decibel.electriciti.com> At 11:57 AM 10/30/98 -0600, Michael asked >So, what's the process in counting your entries? > I bill for the number of entries counted in the final "silent" formatted print command in Cindex 6.1.Some people bill on the count of a raw sort, which presents a higher number, but I prefer to bill on the basis of actual formatted entries. I do not bill per page locator. I bill for what both my customer and I can count. I judge that I have worked hardest and done the most evaluation on indexes with the most intries--no matter how many pages in the book. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:33:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nulla Subject: Re: computer term In-Reply-To: Since this a Macintosh related question, I went through all my Mac manuals. I was able to find the information for half of your question: RISC = Reduced Instruction Set Computing. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the PC part means "processing chip", "power chip", "personal computer" or something else. I would check at the Apple site: . They have a library, and if that doesn't answer your questions, you can probably find an email address to contact someone. JC Another question people: > >Does anyone know what the spelled out version for the following term is: > >PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor family > >I can't find it anywhere. > >Kevin Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:49:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Subject: Re: computer term(s) In case no one has yet mentioned it, a superb "Reference" site to bookmark is www.techweb.com/encyclopedia You can look up RISC there, and any other computer terms you come across. Robin +++++++++++++++++ Robin Black-Dunigan Freelance Copyeditor Fort Worth, Texas +++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:47:43 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Clearly a number of established indexers have developed ways to beat the rate-per-page system, at least to their satisfaction. The primary variables seem to be speed and volume. The faster one can index the more one makes, which is just the process piece work tends to foster. Or, one can regard a no-brainer and a scholarly tome, both done for $3 per page, as balancing each other out. Here it seems that a voluminous or at least varied work load is critical. The trick is to get the work in the first place. Exploring ways to convince authors and publishers that professionally written indexes are better seems more likely to increase work for everyone than universal refusal to do existing work for less than $3 per page. Wages do tend to rise with demand. Publishers, and some other employers I know of who hire freelancers, probably like to pay by the page because it makes things easy for them. They can't supervise freelancers, can't be sure their hourly charges are accurate and are absolved from having to pay people who work at different speeds exactly the same. Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fred Brown Subject: Re: computer term What is the PowerPC RISC microprocessor? "PowerPC" is a brand name of a family of high-performance = microprocessors. RISC, as others have noted, means "Reduced Instruction = Set Computer." A RISC microprocessor can only do a small number of = simple instructions -- but it does them very fast, often doing two or = more instructions in parallel. The PowerPC microprocessor was developed by an alliance of Apple, IBM, = and Motorola. The Power Macintosh uses a PowerPC microprocessor as do = some IBM workstations. For further information on the PowerPC family, you can refer to: http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fred Brown McCrae Consulting Associates "effective business and technical documentation" Email: fredb@cyberus.ca Web: http://www.cyberus.ca/~fredb Phone: 613-728-5761 Fax: 613-728-9373 Ottawa, Ontario, Canada=20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * =00=00 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:09:12 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: IndexerJ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Another advantage of charging per page instead of hourly: When the editor's estimate of 275 pages ends up as 327 pages, there is no hassle over payment for the increased number of hours that will have to be spent indexing. Nor will the editor wail about exceeding the budget because my original "estimate" has now been set as the maximum allowance by the accounting folks. Won't I take pity? By charging per page, inaccurate estimates are the publisher's problem, not my crime of greed. I learned this long ago--the hard way. Of course my first questions are always "how big is the page?" and "how small is the type?" My rates vary accordingly. In recent years editors' estimates of final page numbers seem to be much closer to the mark than they used to be. Would the advent of desk-top publishing have something to do with this? Jeanne Moody ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:09:44 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: Beginner's rates Nick Koenig wrote: (snip) and Do Mi responded (snip) I've got to chime in here and join Do Mi in disagreeing with Nick. Page rates are good for all of us who expect to get better and better at what we do--because if we're paid an hourly rate, the faster we get the less money we make, unless we constantly raise the rate--which we all know is difficult to do. I'm a (relative) beginner, have indexed for pay for about a year and a half, having now done about 20 jobs. I track my indexing time very carefully and figure out what my "hourly rate" is for every project by dividing what I billed by the time I had in it. (This includes all time spent on a specific project, including phone calls and emails with editors, etc.--but NO marketing or networking time). I find this very educational; I know exactly which jobs were "worth doing" moneywise, and which were not. Just the other day I sat down and averaged all my jobs to date to see what my average hourly rate has been. The range was very wide, but the average was just over $40 per hour--and I don't believe for a minute that I would have gotten all those jobs if I'd told the editors I'd bill them $40 per hour. My lowest-paying job was the one I did for an hourly rate. I'm not charging premium page rates, and I'm not particularly fast (except in a couple of specific subject areas, like anybody else). And $40 is not as much as it sounds like, when you consider that there's no way you're putting in forty hours a week, week in and week out, on actual project time (at least I can't). Of course, there are situations where an hourly rate might make sense--if the job is so hard to define that you just can't make a good estimate of what the time involved will be, for instance. But usually, a page rate is going to give the indexer the best chance to make enough money, I believe. Therese Shere ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:12:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Walker, Alvin" Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: Beginner's rates I am out of the office until Monday, November 9. See Renee Mason if assistance is needed. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:25:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810302315.SAA28275@camel16.mindspring.com> At 06:09 PM 30-10-98 EST, Jeanne Moody wrote: > Another advantage of charging per page instead of hourly: . . . Of course my first questions are always "how big is the page?" and "how small is the type?" My rates vary accordingly. < Traditionally, "page" for price quotes means the 250-word manuscript page. That's how I quote 'em. If the proofs have 500-word pages, then it's double rate; for one client, whose pages average 750 words, it's triple rate. Cheers, Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:27:43 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: computer term Reduced instruction set computing. Suellen On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:42:57 -0500 "Kevin A. Broccoli" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Another question people: > >Does anyone know what the spelled out version for the following term >is: > >PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor family > >I can't find it anywhere. > >Kevin Broccoli > >------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
Another question = >people:
>
 
>
Does anyone know what the spelled >= >out version=20 >for the following term is:
>
 
>
PowerPC RISC mircoprocessor = >family
>
 
>
I can't find it = >anywhere.
>
 
>
Kevin = >Broccoli
> >------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BE03FA.702DA720-- > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:44:25 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginner's rates TShere7566@AOL.COM wrote: > Page rates > are good for all of us who expect to get better and better at what we > do--because if we're paid an hourly rate, the faster we get the less money we > make, unless we constantly raise the rate--which we all know is difficult to > do. > I find it personally difficult to equate better and better with faster and faster. I would prefer the option to go slower with more difficult material, perhaps in the foolish belief that the final product will be better. Presumably, the faster one gets with practice the more jobs one can do, even if the amount earned on individual jobs may be less than earlier. Just the other day I sat > down and averaged all my jobs to date to see what my average hourly rate has > been. The range was very wide, but the average was just over $40 per hour--and > I don't believe for a minute that I would have gotten all those jobs if I'd > told the editors I'd bill them $40 per hour. My lowest-paying job was the one > I did for an hourly rate. I'm not charging premium page rates, and I'm not > particularly fast (except in a couple of specific subject areas, like anybody > else). And $40 is not as much as it sounds like, when you consider that > there's no way you're putting in forty hours a week, week in and week out, on > actual project time (at least I can't). > Individual experiences can certainly differ markedly. My highest-paying job was on an hourly rate. I am not extremely slow but I doubt that any of the books I've done could be read in 10 hours, much less indexed. And $400 would be about right as an average per index. Subject matter may be relevant here. Perhaps with all this recent emphasis on speed and ergonomic devices indexing should be considered an athletic as well as an intellectual activity. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 22:45:34 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Macrex question At 11:41 AM 10/30/98 -0500, Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > >Anyone know how to sort a number so that it appears before the a's in = >the index in Macrex? > >Everytime I enter the number, 1149, it says that the first character is = >not valid. Usually in Macrex you put the character/s in brackets, ex: = >{1149} is you want it to be ignored. However it is saying that it = >doesn't recognize the "{" Kevin: Precede the number with a sort string of "a"s. I usually use ~aaz~ for numbers (and ~aa~ plus the first four or five letters of the name of a symbol for most symbols). The character that Macrex does not recognize in "{1149k}" is not the "{" but the first "1". Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:47:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beginner's rates Nick wrote: << I find it personally difficult to equate better and better with faster and faster. >> Well, of course not. The goal is to maintain extremely high quality while working fast enough to make a living. People have different amounts of money they need to make, and I respect the fact that some of us are able to work part-time or have indexing not be the main source of their family's income. But a full-time indexer who ^is^ supporting her- or himself should be the hallmark for how much money we earn. (Sorry about the clumsy grammar--end of a tiring week!) I wouldn't encourage anybody to speed up if it was compromising the quality of their indexes! I'm somewhat ambivalent about this whole issue. The arguments for beginners working for less are pretty good ones, and I know how hard it is to break in to this business. But the fact remains that when publishers can say "I can always get somebody to do that for $1.50 a page," rates are depressed for all of us. Still cogitating, Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:53:11 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Macrex question << Anyone know how to sort a number so that it appears before the a's in = the index in Macrex? >> Kevin, I'm pretty sure there's a more elegant way to do this, but I've used ~aaa~ before the entry. Have you joined the Macrex loop yet? I would ask this question on there too. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:44:22 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Macrex question Michael Brackney wrote: > > > Everytime I enter the number, 1149, it says that the first character > > is not valid. Usually in Macrex you put the characters in brackets, > > ex: = {1149}, if you want [them] to be ignored. However [Macrex] is > > saying that it doesn't recognize the "{". > > [Prefix] the number with a sort string of "a"s. I usually use ~aaz~ > for numbers (and ~aa~ plus the first four or five letters of the name > of a symbol for most symbols). > > The character that Macrex does not recognize in "{1149k}" is not the > "{" but the first "1". I'm confused by the notion of indexing software that makes you go to such lengths to index symbols and numerals. For example, it seems unnecessarily circuitous to prefix numeric entries with a string of letters so they precede the letter entries, since numbers precede letters in the standard character sequence anyway. It's analogous to prefixing "Aardvark" with "aaaa" so it comes before "Ability," which you prefix with "aaa" so it comes before "Acrimony," which you prefix with"aa" so it...well, you catch my drift. It just seems like a lot of work. Is there an indexing principle behind this design? Just curious... --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:44:48 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginner's rates DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > > Nick wrote: > > << I find it personally difficult to equate better and better with faster and > faster. >> > > Well, of course not. The goal is to maintain extremely high quality while > working fast enough to make a living. > Yes, this is indeed the goal. But one also has to get enough jobs to begin with. > People have different amounts of money they need to make, and I respect the > fact that some of us are able to work part-time or have indexing not be the > main source of their family's income. But a full-time indexer who ^is^ > supporting her- or himself should be the hallmark for how much money we earn. > (Sorry about the clumsy grammar--end of a tiring week!) > In the US it is far from unusual for part-timers to make less than full-timers. Even when the hourly rate is the same, part-timers are often paid no benefits. And of course part-timers are often used by employers for just these reasons. See below. > I wouldn't encourage anybody to speed up if it was compromising the quality of > their indexes! > I wouldn't either, unless they really needed the bread. > I'm somewhat ambivalent about this whole issue. The arguments for beginners > working for less are pretty good ones, and I know how hard it is to break in > to this business. But the fact remains that when publishers can say "I can > always get somebody to do that for $1.50 a page," rates are depressed for all > of us. > Well, first of all, $1.50 a page is in itself insulting. I regard indexing as a form of creative writing, a view that is evidently not shared by numerous publishers. If someone actually pulled this on me I would tell her/him that s/he ought to ashamed of her/himself. This is a classic case of an employer pitting one potential employee against another to lower wages. Actually, I might use something more colorful. An indexer already making a living could surely do the same. Such publishers are the culprits here, not part-time indexers who may feel they have to accept such a rate. Now, if the names of such publishers were disseminated on INDEX-L and they were boycotted, they wouldn't be able to "get somebody to do that for $1.50 a page." Ok, so I'm fantasizing. It's late. By the way, does anyone know of any other creative writers who are paid by the page or something similar? I do recall an add some years ago for people to write pornography for $1 a page but I don't know of any other examples. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 01:04:08 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Beginner's rates Nick wrote: >By the way, does anyone know of any other creative writers who are paid >by the page or something similar? I do recall an add some years ago for >people to write pornography for $1 a page but I don't know of any other >examples. Other examples have included standard journalism, in which writers are/were paid by the word. But, I am not being paid by the page of finished work, I'm being paid by the page of work to be analyzed, which is basically agreeing to a set fee for work hired. There is no way I will work for an hourly rate on standard print-object indexes. With imbedded indexing it sounds like it makes sense to go with an hourly rate, because of the vagaries involved. But I know for a fact I couldn't get an hourly rate from publishers that is comparable to what I make. And by the way, at a page rate, I am completely free to lolligag as much as I want to, and I do luxuriate in some subjects, just for my own enjoyment. Nobody is standing over me telling me how fast I have to work. Hourly rates put a pressure on me that I don't enjoy, and when I have worked for an hourly (all 3 times) I've been pressured to work for less money, to bill for fewer hours, because the publisher was surprised at the time it took. I'm a freelance indexer for many reasons, and one of them is not having to answer to anyone but myself about my time. YMMV, of course. --Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:31:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beginner's rates and "faster" vs. "better" In a message dated 98-10-30 21:38:16 EST, Nicholas W. Koenig wrote: << I find it personally difficult to equate better and better with faster and faster. I would prefer the option to go slower with more difficult material, >> "Faster" may or may not mean just skimming the material. As one uses the software more, one becomes "faster" accessing various functions of the software. If one is not a fast typist to begin with, one's typing speed may increase. With more and more indexing, one may increase skill in marking text and/or wording entries, so one does not have to go back and double-check as many earlier entries. I'd better mention that one can gain speed in the basics of organizing the concepts in books, lest someone suspect I am just typing in a list of key words. In summary, there can be increases in speed that do not require skimping on the analysis of the material. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:20:13 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Nash Subject: Re: Macrex question To put numbers (e.g. 1149) above A: (1) If several numbers like this, use: ~AADI~{1149} - unless you have words starting with "aac..." or "aab..." (2) If only one, use: ~AAA~{1149} (3) If you want sorting in spelling of the word, use: ~ONEONEFOURNINE~{1149} See Macrex manual, version 6, section 4.16 NUMBERS IN HEADINGS. Good luck. (Why would you want to do this?) Paul Nash Perth, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:31:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Patton Subject: indexing quality It's been interesting reading the rates thread. Yesterday I got a call from an editor who was Very unhappy about the indexing work another freelancer had submitted and wanted some lingo to use as ammunition in dealing with this person. This was this person's third job for this press, and the editor was stunned to receive not a conceptual index but rather a too-long-for-the-specs concordance for the second job. She hadn't hired the "indexer" for the third job but was going to have to cope with what comes in on Monday. This press is not going to hire this freelancer again, but is looking for ways to protect against over-priced shoddy work. They're going to explore giving indexers a test. The freelancer is retired and must have a huge ego. Thinks that years of experience in the subject area will make anyone an indexer and will qualify one enough to charge $4 per page to index. Evidently has learned a little about indexing, but never learned to analyze concepts. I've been heartened of late by the way this press has worked to improve the indexes in their books. They can't afford to receive shoddy work and it pains them when they do. They write a letter to the authors that should scare them enough to hire a professional indexer. And the authors agree. (Hurrah!) And I've been getting more indexing work from them as result. Often these are reprints and they send me the previous index -- which are usually incredibly awful. It feels really good to provide a light year leap in the quality of the indexes for their books. In summary here -- professional indexers provide conceptually-analzyed quality indexes. Other indexers won't get rehired by knowledgeable editors. Deborah ============================== Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA 410/243-4688 deborahpatton@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 05:28:15 MST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy McElroy Subject: Unsubscribe Please remove me from this mailing list or send me instructions on the proper procedure. Nancy McElroy mcelroy.nancy@usa.net Douglasville, GA, USA (770) 942-6226 ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 08:35:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sally Klingener Subject: Re: ergonomics In-Reply-To: <199810291416.JAA15153@eliot.oit.umass.edu> I read these ergonomic postings rather wistfully because I haven't been able to find a satisfactory left handed keyboard. I have an Adesso "ergonomic" keyboard with center stick pointer at work which is very difficult to control. I also think wrist supports need to be twice as high as they normally are in order to put your hands in line with your arms properly. Haven't tried it 'though. Can we hear from any other left-handers out there/ Sally At 09:09 AM 10/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >Like Pam Rider, I also use the Kinesis Ergonomic Keyboard. I went one = >step further and switched to the Dvorak keyboard layout as well. I = >really like the feel of the keyboard. There have also been a couple = >laboratory studies that demonstrate it's effectiveness in reducing the = >strain associated with typing. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alice G. Klingener email: skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu Biology Department tele: (413) 545-0449 221 Morrill Science Center fax: (413) 545-3243 University of Massachusetts Amherst, MA 01003 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:09:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Guenther Subject: Re: ergonomics In-Reply-To: <199810311337.IAA27466@carriage.chesco.com> At 08:35 AM 10/31/98 -0500, you wrote: >I read these ergonomic postings rather wistfully because I haven't been >able to find a satisfactory left handed keyboard.=A0 > >Can we hear from any other left-handers out there/ > >Sally Hi from another leftie, For several years I've been using the Comfort Keyboard from Health Care Systems.=20 I It is split into 3 separate components (one for each hand, plus the numeric keypad with the cursor movement keys. All are on a base & all are= adjustable in countless ways. They slide on tracks in the base; they can be rearranged= on the base (numeric pad could be in the center if you would like. The angle= of each section is individually set as you prefer=20 I can't imagine now using anything else. http://www.tifaq.com/keyboards/adjustable-split-keyboards.html#kb-comfort One potential drawback is that there are no mouse alternatives with it. I solved that problem by placing a piece of heavy-duty cardboard under the= left side of the keyboard which provides me a place for my trackball without= major stress on my hand. =20 Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:19:19 -0800 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: ergonomics Sally Klingener wrote: > > I read these ergonomic postings rather wistfully because I haven't been > able to find a satisfactory left handed keyboard. I have an Adesso > "ergonomic" keyboard with center stick pointer at work which is very > difficult to control. I also think wrist supports need to be twice as high > as they normally are in order to put your hands in line with your arms > properly. Haven't tried it 'though. > > Can we hear from any other left-handers out there/ > > Sally Sally, At the Cornell Univ. ergonomics web site there's a case history of a left-handed person (with photos). The "preset tiltdown keyboard system" they refer to is made by Proformix, and is an adjustable keyboard platform. http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHProjects/ErgsCases.html http://www.proformix.com/ Laura ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:28:48 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: Beginners' rates You know, I have thought about that before. After all, when I worked in an office, I certainly didn't clock out every time I ran to the rest room or engaged in idle chit chat with my coworkers. But I think that when I estimate, I tend to short-change myself. I guess I could quit clocking out so much (e.g., serving up Goldfish crackers on the clock), but it's just so easy to get distracted. Also, by keeping an exact timesheet, I feel like if anyone ever challenged me on the amount of time something took, I could show them that. Bonnie << Couldn't you just estimate? Why the stickler for actual time? In my real job (9 to 5 outside of home) we have to keep time and we always "estimate" within guidelines. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:44:44 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Macrex question Oh, forgot to say: make a keyword for your ~aaa~ so you don't have to type it more than once. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:53:03 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: vacation spam? Is anyone else getting repeated "I'm on vacation" messages from annew@interdyn.com (Anne Weiner)? I've been getting about two a day for two weeks, and it's starting to feel like spam. I replied to the email addressed and asked what was going on but didn't get a reply. It's signed Anne Weiner, Technical Writer, Internet Dynamics. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:07:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Part-timers' rates; Was: Beginners' rates Somebody said: "According to last year's ASI salary survey, the majority (32.7%) of indexers make less than $5000 per year. Many are part timer workers who, I imagine, are happy with occasional indexing jobs from a regular (perhaps low paying) client that doesn't require any extra marketing efforts." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- I have been moonlighting as an indexer since 1991, working a 40+ hour full- time job (until August 98 when I dropped back to 80%) plus working up to 20 hrs/week as an indexer. I assure you that I will NOT accept sub-standard rates simply because I index part-time. I deliver the same quality of work as an experienced full-time indexer, and I expect to be compensated accordingly. I turn down jobs if I can't meet the publisher's time requirements. I routinely work evenings, weekends, and holidays, and my notebook computer and index-in-process goes on vacation with me if necessary to meet a deadline. I'll use vacation time from the 'day job' if necessary to bring an index in on schedule; I don't miss deadlines unless the client's slippage on page delivery causes it. In other words, I'm a PROFESSIONAL. My part-time status has NOTHING to do with that; my quality of work does. My gross annual indexing income is certainly lower than that of a full-time indexer; but I'm willing to bet that if you convert it to full-time equivalent (income divided by hours worked during the year times 2080) it is equal to that of a typical full-time indexer. Why do I do this? Because is a way to generate the income needed to put two kids thru college, doing a task I enjoy, while developing the competencies and the client base necessary to allow me to index full time at some time in the future. But much as I enjoy indexing, I would NOT be putting in these hours if the income didn't offset the impact on my "free" time. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:28:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Autoresponders and Index-L Do Mi's query about vacation spam brings up an interesting point. More and more folks are discovering autoresponders -- answering machine-like email programs that *automatically* generate a prewritten response to incoming email messages when the correspondent is away from their computers for awhile. For subscribers to email lists, this generates problems for the rest of the membership, in that the autoresponse is forwarded to the entire membership by the listserv as another piece of list mail. Each and every message from the listserv is greeted with an instant "I'm not here message" that gets propagated to the entire group. If you are going on vacation (or business travel or whatever) and are taking the trouble to set up your autoresponder, then **please** take the additional time to send a message to index-l's listserv, temporarily stopping list traffic to your mailbox. Write to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU and send the following commands at the appropriate times (subject lines empty): Set index-l NOMAIL --> toggles OFF receipt of list mail Set index-l Mail ---> toggles ON receipt of list mail. We all thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: vacation spam? What's going on is that she set an autoreply and did not unsubscribe from the list before she left. I discovered that I only get a message from her whenever I post to the list (directed to my email address, not the listserv's incidentally). We had the same problem here within the company magnified about 1000 times because we had a lady who went on vacation and set Outlook not only to respond to all messages received, but to respond to "the sender and all other recipients." FURTHERMORE, she set it to notify her whenever someone read one of her messages. Therefore, whenever a company-wide email went out, everyone in the company got a message from her saying that she was out of the office, and if anyone in the company opened the autoreply message, Outlook would automatically send a message back to her saying that Jane Smith has opened her message, thus generating another round of everyone in the company getting another message saying she was out of the office! We were getting 20 and 30 messages at a time from her until the Help Desk folks intervened and told everyone to delete her messages without opening them. Needless to say, about once a day someone would forget and start the cycle again. I think she got about 200 messages welcoming her back from vacation when she returned! :-) The moral: Be very, very careful when you set up autoreplies! Incidentally, most autoreply programs can be set to not respond to messages from certain addresses. As an alternative to unsubscribing from your lists, you can set the autoreply to ignore messages from the list. As a precaution, I usually set mine to ignore all messages coming from the internet, and only autoreply to internal messages. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: DStaub11@AOL.COM [SMTP:DStaub11@AOL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 11:53 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: vacation spam? > > Is anyone else getting repeated "I'm on vacation" messages from > annew@interdyn.com (Anne Weiner)? I've been getting about two a day for > two > weeks, and it's starting to feel like spam. I replied to the email > addressed > and asked what was going on but didn't get a reply. It's signed Anne > Weiner, > Technical Writer, Internet Dynamics. > > Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:36:55 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Beginner's rates Victoria Baker wrote: > There is no way I will work for an > hourly rate on standard print-object indexes. With imbedded indexing it > sounds like it makes sense to go with an hourly rate, because of the > vagaries involved. But I know for a fact I couldn't get an hourly rate > from publishers that is comparable to what I make. That's too bad. It seems to be further confirmation that some publishers want to pay as little as they can and have no scruples about how they get a bargain. And by the way, at a > page rate, I am completely free to lolligag as much as I want to, and I do > luxuriate in some subjects, just for my own enjoyment. Nobody is standing > over me telling me how fast I have to work. As long as the client isn't charged for lolligaging, I think anyone is free to do it, however they are being paid. What you can't do is get paid for taking more time to deal with denser subject matter. I suppose only the level of economic need tells you how fast to work. Hourly rates put a pressure on > me that I don't enjoy, and when I have worked for an hourly (all 3 times) > I've been pressured to work for less money, to bill for fewer hours, > because the publisher was surprised at the time it took. > Sounds to me like it is the publisher who is putting on the pressure here, just like the ones Do Mi referred to who refuse to pay decent per page rates. I suppose the threat was to not pay your invoice, perhaps on the assumption that you would not take action to enforce it. The thread about publisher mangling of indexes and the one about payment reveal a good deal about the power relationship between publishers and freelancers. I'm grateful to these discussion for enlightening me concerning what I might expect in the future. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:53:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: wrist support The gloves Deborah mentions below are a different type from the ones I am using. Mine are called "Handeze" and are made of a stretchy knit fabric which is 87% nylon and 13% Spandex. The material is more like that in exercise tights than a knitted sweater, though I bet that would be comfy too. The Spandex gives more support, I would think. This is not a wrist brace, just a snug fingerless glove that covers the wrist also. As I posted before, direct ordering number (in US) is 1-800-432-4352. The box also says "made 100% in USA." In a message dated 10/29/98 3:17:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, shawd@MINDSPRING.COM writes: > These fingerless gloves are sold in yarn shops, because knitters need wrist > support, too. They're made by Nikken, a Japanese company. Someone on > Techknit, who swears by magnets and uses the gloves to hold the magnets in > place during two consecutive sleep cycles, listed three sources for the > gloves: > > * your local yarn shop (probably not a chain) > * Harmony catalogue (1-800-869-3446 in North America) > * Inner Balance catalogue (1-800-482-3608 in North America) > > You could also knit up a pair quickly, or persuade a knitter to do it. Just > do a swatch and make a tight fingerless glove, perhaps with i-cord tubes > for boning, which you can buy at a fabric store. Knit the thumb gusset, but > not the thumb, and stop above the fingers. If any indexer wants to try > this, I'll make one for myself, in stockinette with seed-stitch borders, > and write it up -- or try it with your favorite mitten or glove pattern, > one size down. I'll try one with and one without tubes for boning. This can > be my New Year's present to the list; if interested, contact me privately. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:53:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Getting Around Web/Web Sites In a message dated 10/27/98 7:05:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, Indexlady@AOL.COM writes: > (snip) > > Good design equals ease of use. Bad design equals total frustration. With > the > Internet, it's not just professionally trained graphic artists who are > designing web sites. It's novices with no graphic sense at all. What these > novices have are software programs. Big difference. > The irony in this is that I have run across some very easy to navigate "amateur" sites. The ones that have given me the most trouble are the *HUGE* professionally designed sites. Microsoft's is a good example. I remember very well my first attempt to download a patch there -- I got to the download page & clicked a button on the right side which gave me information about the download site, but *not* the file i wanted. After much head-scratching & blind circling, I finally spotted the button on the *left* side which was the one I needed. Guess I really can't blame that on Microsoft though. And I can't really say the MS site is not well organized either. There is just *so* much that by time I decide if I want software support, or software downloads, or software upgrades or whatever, and then find the software product for which I need the patch or upgrade, and then get the download started -- well, I feel like I have just traversed the jungles of Borneo without a compass! And, yes, I do bookmark that tree in the forest, when I find it. Query for the technically oriented among us: Is there some reason why MS does not zip their files? When I downloaded the upgrade from Outlook 97 to Outlook 98 it took over 2 hours, for Pete's sake! (Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I did not sit there watching the little pages fly -- I went to bed & let AOL sign off.) Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:15:02 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Part-timers' rates; Was: Beginners' rates >Somebody said: > >"According to last year's ASI salary survey, the majority (32.7%) >of indexers make less than $5000 per year. Many are part timer >workers >who, I imagine, are happy with occasional indexing jobs from a regular >(perhaps low paying) client that doesn't require any extra marketing >efforts." > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------- > >I have been moonlighting as an indexer since 1991, working a 40+ hour >full- >time job (until August 98 when I dropped back to 80%) plus working up >to 20 >hrs/week as an indexer. > >I assure you that I will NOT accept sub-standard rates simply because >I index >part-time. I deliver the same quality of work as an experienced >full-time >indexer, and I expect to be compensated accordingly. I turn down jobs >if I >can't meet the publisher's time requirements. Carolyn, I referenced the survey to demostrate that not every indexer is a full-timer. The $5000/yr number can be arrived at by many combinations of page rate and the number of books indexed (or hourly rate and time spent indexing). I agree wholeheartedly with you that a part-timer shouldn't get paid any less than a full timer. As far as when, where, and how much you work goes, and index is an index is an index. Publishers don't owe us a living, but they also are not in a position to make a distinction between full and part timers and then base their rates on that. In the case of freelancers, our "independent contractor" status is all they need to know. - Susan ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: eBook-List Discussion List This was posted on ASIS-L and I thought it would be of interest to the list. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org > _eBook-List Discussion List_ > > In reponse to my recent posting regarding the identification, acquisition >and management of WebBooks, it was suggested that perhaps a separate >discussion list be established to address these and related issues for >libraries. In investigating if a current list existed, I (re)discovered >the _eBook-List_ mailing list. As stated in its Welcome message, > > _eBooks-List_ "is open to all individuals and organizations >interested in developing, researching, producing, authoring, >publishing, distributing, reading, and even dreaming about electronic >books. That should include just about everybody!" > > [snip] > >"The primary long-term goal of EBook-List is to create a unified >community of individuals and organizations (both commercial and >non-profit) which will promote the continued research, development >and marketing of electronic books, composing and viewing software for >computers, and portable electronic book readers." > > >"A sample list of topics to discuss on EBook-List include, among *many* >others: > >1) The electronic publishing formats currently available that could >be used for producing electronic book titles. What are their >comparative >advantages and disadvantages? Does there now exist the "ideal" >format? > >2) Should a "standardized" electronic book format be developed for >the long-term future? Is it even possible? > >3) The advantages and disadvantages of electronic books over their >paper cousins -- present and future. What are the social >ramifications when (or "if", for the skeptics out there) electronic >books become dominant in our society? > >4) What will the electronic book reader of the future look like? >What technology development is required to make such readers >attractive to >the point that electronic books will become dominant over paper >books? How many years from now will this happen? Do we have the >technology today to make a marketable portable electronic book >reader, or do we have to wait for substantially cheaper and much >higher resolution flat screens to be developed? > >5) Network vs. local access of electronic books. Do consumers prefer >to actually possess their own copy to store on their own >computer/reader rather than pay to access it elsewhere over a network? > >6) Publishing issues: Will electronic book publishing allow authors >to gain more control over their works? Will it allow authors to >bypass publishers and self-publish? How will electronic book titles >of the future be marketed -- over the Internet or via portable media >like CD-ROM and its successors? How will the electronic book >consumer be able to sort through the expected huge number of >electronic book titles produced outside of the "big" publishers? > >7) Copyright/security/encryption issues: Is it possible to develop >electronic books and readers that provide copyright security to >authors and publishers, such as the use of machine-specific passwords >(e.g., SoftLock), data encryption, etc.?" > > >To subscribe, send e-mail to ebook-list@mabooks.com. In the Subject: line >add the word "subscribe" (but without the quotes). Leave the message blank. > >In the average day, there are probably a dozen or so postings, typically >list. [This weeks top topic is the recently announced Rocket e-Book from >NuvoMedia][BTW: There was a review of the Rocket e-Book in the "Circuits" >section of the _New York Times_ on Thursday, October 29, 1998] > > It response to my posting about WebBooks on the list earlier this week >I received a response that acknowledged and recognized the potential role >that libraries and librarians should play in the evolution of the >E-Book/WebBook and which encouraged wider cooperation among developers, >publishers, and librarians. > > Joy! > >/Gerry McKiernan >Theoretical Librarian >Iowa State University >Ames IA 50011 > >gerrymck@iastate.edu > > > "The Best Way to Predict the Future is To Invent It!" > Alan Kay > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:40:14 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Beginners' rates; a slice of the pie (long) In a message dated 10/30/98 12:28:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, susanhernandez@JUNO.COM writes: > (snip) > If mid-town auto shop B notices that uptown auto shop A is getting > $75 for the same tune-up job auto shop B charges $50 for, B might decide > to raise his/her rates. Some B customers, liking the work B does and not > wanting to shop around, will pay the new price. Others will think the > price increase is too much and will shop around and go to downtown auto > shop C, which still charges $50. (B and C could also get together and > agree to charge what A charges. But that would be illegal, and would no > doubt result in customers doing their own tune ups.) Customers at A, B, > and C still get their cars tuned up. Sometimes A does the best job, > sometimes C does the best job. They all have their loyal customers - > because of quality, convenience, price, or some combination of all three. > But everyone still gets their car tuned up. The customer gets to > choose. It's the way the market works, and indexing is no different. > > > - Susan > Hmmm... This reminds me of the reverse scenario, which was often considered in discussions of how to generate more net income from a veterinary practice. If one of two competing clinics *lowers* fees in order to increase their volume of clients, the fee cut has to generate a *big* increase in volume to offset the reduced net profit per client visit. This can be calculated out (by the management gurus) and basically happens because the overhead does not decrease with the fees, so that if you cut your fees without generating much new business you will be in big trouble. It seems to me that the same premise would apply to indexing, although there is not any drug inventory or (usually) employee expense. So, if beginners cut their rates in order to get more jobs, then they will really drop their "net" overall. The computer, software, fax, phone bills, etc., still cost the same. If an indexer cuts rates to get more jobs, it better be a temporary move to get started, or he/she better learn to make that keyboard smoke. I think the publishers who would use the "volume" indexer would be a bit different form the ones who use the indexer who charges more. In veterinary medicine the "volume" practice will get clients whose priorities are cost, speed and convenience. The higher fee practice will have the clients who want more time spent on their visit, more individual care, complete explanations, etc. In indexing, the quality of the index the publisher expects to receive determines which indexer they will use (or are willing to pay for). Cravat: the above is not meant to imply that all "fast" indexers produce lower quality indexes; only that, on the average, indexers produce better indexes when they have sufficient time. If the indexer is willing to take shortcuts to produce what the publisher wants, on the publishers budget -- well, that is their chosen market "niche." Also, if an indexer is willing to accept the negative effect on their net income, he/she is free to spend the time needed to produce a great index even if the pay is low. Neither option is "ideal", and I know that many people here would not approve of either. However, this is the real world, and there are people who will accept these jobs. It is their decision and they have to bear the consequences. The REAL QUESTION is: Does this cause a problem for those indexers who want to be proud of every index and who refuse to work for less than they believe their work is worth? I have a feeling the answer is: Not very much. They have their own "niche." That was my experience as a veterinarian. When a low-cost clinic opened in the area, I did lose some clients, but they were the bottom 10% (i.e., the ones who were not really producing any income). Many of those clients were "good" clients for the new clinic -- they were set up to get them in and out quickly and inexpensively. And that was the level of service those clients wanted. When they left we had more time for our top 20% clients. The result: my gross income went down slightly but my net income remained the same. The real issue is to promote better indexes (or in many cases, any index at all) so there is more demand for indexers on all levels. The buzz word is "enlarging the pie." I am often intrigued by the similarities in the concerns of the two businesses; indexing and veterinary medicine. I have to say that I think the vets are more freaked by the "low cost" competition than indexers. Twenty-five years ago a young Dr. could hang out his shingle (yes, they were pretty much all male then), and have all the business he could handle. Now things are very competitive. When that first camper pulled into the shopping center on the corner and put up the "low-cost vaccination clinic" sign a lot of s**t hit the fan. Imagine how the vet across the street with a couple of hundred thousand invested in a hospital and half a dozen employees on the payroll felt to see that most profitable service snatched away! They thought that bankruptcy was just around the corner at the time. There were a lot of changes, but those hospitals figured out how to cope. I think the common denominator is the fact that anyone who works "for him/herself" is acutely aware of where the money to buy the groceries comes from. The rest of the world collects a paycheck every two weeks and this gives them a false sense of security! I guess the point of this long ramble is *keep everything in proportion*. There are always people who are willing to work for less for a variety of reasons (some good & some bad). There are always clients who want to skimp, or don't know enough to know what they ought to pay for a service, or even don't know they should buy the service at all. I won't say that this should not be of some concern, but it does not automatically drag everybody down, and it certainly is not a moral issue! End of lecture on veterinary economics! ;-) Somehow this did not end up quite where I thought I was headed! Ann Truesdale, DVM (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 07:38:47 +0000 Reply-To: paper@lj.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sunny Subject: Re: Beginner's rates Yes! by all means , inform us of the offending publishers: like being a victim, dont help them keep doing the crime , criminals hate having light in their faces.... Nicholas W. Koenig wrote: > DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > > > > Nick wrote: > > > > << I find it personally difficult to equate better and better with faster and > > faster. >> > > > > Well, of course not. The goal is to maintain extremely high quality while > > working fast enough to make a living. > > > Yes, this is indeed the goal. But one also has to get enough jobs to > begin > with. > > > People have different amounts of money they need to make, and I respect the > > fact that some of us are able to work part-time or have indexing not be the > > main source of their family's income. But a full-time indexer who ^is^ > > supporting her- or himself should be the hallmark for how much money we earn. > > (Sorry about the clumsy grammar--end of a tiring week!) > > > In the US it is far from unusual for part-timers to make less than > full-timers. Even > when the hourly rate is the same, part-timers are often paid no > benefits. > And of course part-timers are often used by employers for just these > reasons. > See below. > > > I wouldn't encourage anybody to speed up if it was compromising the quality of > > their indexes! > > > I wouldn't either, unless they really needed the bread. > > > I'm somewhat ambivalent about this whole issue. The arguments for beginners > > working for less are pretty good ones, and I know how hard it is to break in > > to this business. But the fact remains that when publishers can say "I can > > always get somebody to do that for $1.50 a page," rates are depressed for all > > of us. > > > Well, first of all, $1.50 a page is in itself insulting. I regard > indexing as > a form of creative writing, a view that is evidently not shared by > numerous > publishers. If someone actually pulled this on me I would tell her/him > that s/he > ought to ashamed of her/himself. This is a classic case of an employer > pitting > one potential employee against another to lower wages. Actually, I > might use > something more colorful. An indexer already making a living could > surely do > the same. Such publishers are the culprits here, not part-time indexers > who > may feel they have to accept such a rate. > > Now, if the names of such publishers were disseminated on INDEX-L and > they > were boycotted, they wouldn't be able to "get somebody to do that for > $1.50 > a page." Ok, so I'm fantasizing. It's late. > > By the way, does anyone know of any other creative writers who are paid > by the page or something similar? I do recall an add some years ago for > people to write pornography for $1 a page but I don't know of any other > examples. > > Nick