From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Thu Dec 24 18:08:45 1998 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:45:25 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Ilana Kingsley Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9810D" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:29:45 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Beginner rates (WARNING: looong and ranty) It may have been "long and ranty," Lynn, but you said some things that beginners need to hear. We find ourselves caught in the catch-22 of lacking experience but needing it to get that first job. I agree that continuing to read and practice is beginning to make me feel part of the indexing community even though I have yet to "hang out my shingle." Thank you for your good advice. Jean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:51:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: MEDLINEplus web site For medical indexers (or anybody else who's interested in consumer health information), check out NLM's new consumer health web page, MEDLINEplus, at http://medlineplus.nlm.nih.gov/health/medlineplus.html The site contains a direct link to PubMed, other databases and directories, several dictionaries, full-text newsletters, journals, and reference books. It's a keeper! Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:40:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: HUMOR: Year 2K problem <<< please hit delete if you don't feel like laughing!! >>> > Corporate has defined a lower cost alternative to the ongoing studies > surrounding the Y2K (Year 2000) issue: The goal is to remove all > computers from the desktop by Jan, 1999. Instead, everyone will be > provided with an Etch-A-Sketch. There are many sound reasons for doing > this: > 1. No Y2K problems > 2. No technical glitches keeping work from being done. > 3. No more wasted time reading and writing email. > 4. Serves as a laptop, so more work can be done at home and while > traveling. > Thank you. > > Frequently Asked Questions from the Etch-A-Sketch Help Desk: > > Q: My Etch-A-Sketch has all of these funny little lines all over the > screen. What do I do? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I turn my Etch-A-Sketch off? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: What's the shortcut for Undo? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I create a New Document window? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I set the background and foreground to the same color? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: What is the proper procedure for rebooting my Etch-A-Sketch? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I delete a document on my Etch-A-Sketch? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I save my Etch-A-Sketch document? > A: Don't shake it. __________________________________________________________ | | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence | | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents, | Software documentation, and Online help systems | | Tijeras, NM | 505-286-2738 | cparks@mindspring.com | | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim." |_________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:08:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KGarcia549@AOL.COM Subject: LEGAL INDEXER NEEDED Legal publisher needs table of cases and table of statutes done within next two weeks for details e-mail teresa.mysiewicz@westgroup.com. Please mention your indexing credentials. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:46:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wirt Subject: HUMOR: Year 2K problem - Reply > The European Commission has just announced an agreement that English > will be > the official language of the European Community (EU) - rather than > German (the > other possibility). As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's > Government > conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement, and has > accepted > a 5 year phase-in of new rules that would apply to the language and > reclassify > it as EuroEnglish. The agreed plan is as follows: > > In year 1, the soft "c" would be replaced by "s". Sertainly this will > make > the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be replased by > "k". This > should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan now have one less letter. > > There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the > troublesome "ph" is replased by "f". This will reduse "fotograf" by > 20%. > > In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted > to > reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. > Governments will > enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a > deterent to > akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent > "e" in > the language is disgrasful, and they should elimat them. > > By year 4, peopl wil be reseptiv to lingwistik korektions such as > replasing > "th" with "z" and "w" with "v" (saving mor keyboard spas). > > During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords > kontaining "ou", > and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of > leters. After > zis fifz year, ve vil hav a reli sensibil riten styl. Zer vil be no > mor trubls > or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. > > Ze drem vil finali kum tru!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:00:27 +0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Beginner rates (WARNING: looong and ranty) In-Reply-To: > Oh dear, Meredith! Time for my periodic rant about "beginners' > rates". It should be in the training syllabi :-) Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 06:10:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: LEGAL INDEXER NEEDED This is surely a job for a tabler, not an indexer? Kim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sharon N. Warren" Subject: Journal Indexing Dear Madam or Sir: I would like to know how can I get my journal published in Library of Information Science Abstract indexes. The name of the Journal is Journal of Global Information Technology Management. You can view the journal at this website: http://www.people.memphis.edu/~ppalvia/jgitm.htm Thank You, Dr. Prashant Palvia Editor in Chief ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:31:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes In a message dated 10/20/98 5:28:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fugleman@MINDSPRING.COM writes: (friendly snip) > > I know indexers have been complaining that their index jobs have > been mangled, but isn't that really the publisher's loss? The > important thing should be did you do your part of the job the best you > could? If the publisher, does not check back with you about taking > lines and/or x-refs out, then it is the publisher's loss. We should > educate him/her about this loss, but we cannot expect to be in the > final phases of production if the publisher feels we are not needed. > > Rob > fugleman@mindspring.com > Seems to me everybody loses; reader who can't find the info, publisher & author with a less marketable book and indexer who sees his/her good work "wasted" (but who still gets paid). For the indexer, I think there is a fine line between having pride in a job well done and being too personally invested in the final outcome. In an ideal world we would all have total control all the time over everything, but it ain't gonna happen. Still trying to learn to *not* be a control freak myself... Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:36:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: books have endured for a reason At this address, you'll find a wonderful article with this title - hope you enjoy it on your next break ! http://www.beil.com/bksendr.htm Barbara Stroup ********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:50:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: books have endured for a reason In-Reply-To: <199810231544.LAA24610@camel26.mindspring.com> Except for one thing - he claims computer-based full-text search is better than book indexes! At 11:36 AM 10/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >At this address, you'll find a wonderful article with this title - hope you >enjoy it on your next break ! > >http://www.beil.com/bksendr.htm > >Barbara Stroup >********************** >Barbara Stroup, Indexer >30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 >413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Confused by the return e-mail address? Doesn't matter whether you use Jancw@wrightinformation.com OR Jancw@mindspring.com - they will wind up in the same place, as will the URLs below: http://www.wrightinformation.com OR http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:08:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: books have endured for a reason All, The article we were pointed to appeared in the NYTimes in 1997. The "offending statement" Jan refers to is this: <> I don't think so! The author of the article has obviously not run into good indexes in his path through libraries! IMHO, in the service of a trained and experienced indexer, the human mind can do a much better job. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:55:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: books have endured for a reason JPerlman@AOL.COM quoted for us this statement from the article we've been discussing: > > > < book using an index and then try the same hunt with a computer word search > program. Here, computers have the clear advantage. >> > I've been thinking about how this ties in with several threads, both recent and recurring. They all knot together to explain why people _think_ search programs work better than indexes, even though we know they do not. We've been discussing how editors and layout people can murder our indexes and render them less useful. So we know there is a nonzero probability that a reader will be left feeling frustrated by the index s/he finds. We're also discussed in the past how little instruction kids get--or ever got--in using indexes. We've talked about how people misunderstand the differences in alphabetization schemes, we've noted with dismay that there are some readers who have trouble with alphabetical order per se. Longer ago, we've discussed Elizabeth Liddy's research and what it revealed about the difficulties students encounter with indexes (I regret that I've forgotten the complete cite). All these add to the evidence that people can leave an index feeling they haven't found what they needed. A search program usually gives users some result, which fools them into thinking that it is a correct result. Dave Billick showed us, at the ASI conference in Seattle, how poorly people use Internet search engines and how spotty is the quality of what they get back. But they don't know that. They leave the task without feeling frustrated, even when they ought to. To fight the notion that searches are better, we indexers need to do battle on several fronts: ensure that the indexes that see print are the best that can be produced, teach readers how to use them to best advantage, and get publicity for articles that show how much the computer can miss. My 1.5 cents. (I may have time for the full 2 cents when I have finished checking the pages of three volumes of statutes index :-) -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:17:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: books have endured for a reason In-Reply-To: <199810231657.MAA32691@camel10.mindspring.com> As more grist for the mill -- One company I work with did tests that showed that users didn't even know half the time whether they were using the Find (full-text search) tab in Windows Help or the Index tab. Their results were better with the index - more hits that were quality hits. But the users themselves didn't notice how they were getting their hits. Plus, they would not search by scrolling down in the list of hits -- if it wasn't in the first five, forget it ever being found. So in a direct comparison, where both technologies were available, the users weren't able to discriminate between them. So maybe we need a tab on online indexes that says "THIS IS THE INDEX! YOU WILL FIND SOMEONE HAS THOUGHT ABOUT YOUR TOPIC HERE, AND HAS TRIED TO ANALYZE AND PRESENT IT TO YOU LOGICALLY. YOU CAN USE THE "FIND" TAB IF YOU WANT, BUT WE REALLY SUGGEST YOU START WITH THE INDEX. IT'S LESS FRUSTRATING!!!!!" I feel much better now. Of course, if we put that label on online indexes that consist of nothing but topic titles beginning with the word "using" or "about," we are hosed. Jan Wright At 11:55 AM 10/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >JPerlman@AOL.COM quoted for us this statement from the article we've >been discussing: >> >> >> <> book using an index and then try the same hunt with a computer word search >> program. Here, computers have the clear advantage. >> >> >I've been thinking about how this ties in with several threads, both >recent and recurring. They all knot together to explain why people >_think_ search programs work better than indexes, even though we know >they do not. > >We've been discussing how editors and layout people can murder our >indexes and render them less useful. So we know there is a nonzero >probability that a reader will be left feeling frustrated by the index >s/he finds. > >We're also discussed in the past how little instruction kids get--or >ever got--in using indexes. We've talked about how people misunderstand >the differences in alphabetization schemes, we've noted with dismay that >there are some readers who have trouble with alphabetical order per se. >Longer ago, we've discussed Elizabeth Liddy's research and what it >revealed about the difficulties students encounter with indexes (I >regret that I've forgotten the complete cite). All these add to the >evidence that people can leave an index feeling they haven't found what >they needed. > >A search program usually gives users some result, which fools them into >thinking that it is a correct result. Dave Billick showed us, at the ASI >conference in Seattle, how poorly people use Internet search engines and >how spotty is the quality of what they get back. But they don't know >that. They leave the task without feeling frustrated, even when they >ought to. > >To fight the notion that searches are better, we indexers need to do >battle on several fronts: ensure that the indexes that see print are the >best that can be produced, teach readers how to use them to best >advantage, and get publicity for articles that show how much the >computer can miss. > >My 1.5 cents. (I may have time for the full 2 cents when I have >finished checking the pages of three volumes of statutes index :-) >-- >Maryann Corbett >Language Specialist >Office of the Revisor of Statutes >Minnesota Legislature >612-297-2952 > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Confused by the return e-mail address? Doesn't matter whether you use Jancw@wrightinformation.com OR Jancw@mindspring.com - they will wind up in the same place, as will the URLs below: http://www.wrightinformation.com OR http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:33:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: books have endured for a reason "Search Capability: Finally, score one for computers. Try searching >through a book using an index and then try the same hunt with a computer word >search program. Here, computers have the clear advantage." I would have to label this a fifty-fifty split. Remember that not all books are indexed, but all electronic books are searchable (in theory). Fiction, for instance is almost never indexed and a large quantity of non-fiction is not indexed as well. There are also those times when you may be searching for a specific quote or word that is important to what you are interested in, but is not necessarily a important in the context of the book and therefore not indexed. Remember, as indexers we are often working under time and space constraints that makes us come to certain decisions about what is indexed. BRIAN M. PECK Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly 300 N. Salisbury Street Raleigh, NC 27603-5925 Phone: 919-733-9390 Fax: 919-715-5460 email: brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:37:51 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: books have endured for a reason Jan's comments remind me of the comment made a few years back at an ASI annual meeting to the effect that if every book came with a indexer, readers would have less trouble using their indexes. Perhaps we should lobby Bill Gates to supply an indexer with every computer program he sells! Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:12:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah Huse Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of Indexes Lynn, Thanks for your suggestions on approaching the production department in order to lessen space restrictions. I've talked with production departments only a few times. Once was when the instructions the editor had given me were mostly the opposite of what production wanted (what a mess, coding was involved). One of my pet peeves is being told that there is no more space on the index page because the designer and/or production person (sometimes they seem to be the same) needs to have lots of white space on the page to look contemporary. I sometimes wish the contemporary design would stay in the text part of the book, and leave me (and the book user) more lines for an adequate index at a readable font size! Do appreciate your constructive suggestions. Hannah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:19:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? Hello, all-- Somewhere I read that Norton Utilities 3.0 for Windows 95 is buggy, or showing problems. Does anyone know if this is a true fact? It would be a pity, as I just bought the thing. Since this is not strictly an indexer's problem you should reply privately. Cheers, Dave Talcott 75711.1537@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:49:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? In-Reply-To: <199810240023.UAA16640@camel26.mindspring.com> At 08:19 PM 10/23/98 -0400, you wrote: >Somewhere I read that Norton Utilities 3.0 for Windows 95 >is buggy, or showing problems. Does anyone know if this is a true fact? It was buggy enough for me that I removed all Symantec products from my machine. The last straw was when my PC kept hanging during defragmentation. Turns out the defragmenter can't defrag the disk on which it itself is installed. Since I only had one partition, C:, the defragmenter was pretty much useless. Also, 3.0 hyped the ability to recover from a Zip disk, but that ability was seriously flawed. At best you could create a Zip disk that would not work for recovery. At worst it trashed the Zip disk so you couldn't reuse it. If you have access to CompuServe, GO SYMANTEC and look at the discussion groups there. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:59:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? Norton utilities was removed from my system at the somewhat emphatic suggestion of my computer guru. I've not missed it. . . Jeri Lee Dafydd Llwyd Talcott wrote: > Hello, all-- > > Somewhere I read that Norton Utilities 3.0 for Windows 95 > is buggy, or showing problems. Does anyone know if this is a true fact? > > It would be a pity, as I just bought the thing. Since this is > not strictly an indexer's problem you should reply privately. > > Cheers, > Dave Talcott > 75711.1537@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:05:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? At 08:49 PM 10/23/1998 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >It was buggy enough for me that I removed all Symantec products from my >machine. > >The last straw was when my PC kept hanging during defragmentation. Turns >out the defragmenter can't defrag the disk on which it itself is installed. > Since I only had one partition, C:, the defragmenter was pretty much useless. I installed Norton 3.0 when I got my new machine about 2.5 years ago. It came with W95 preinstalled...maybe that's the difference. Norton has performed flawlessly for me (even alerted me to a virus on a floppy before it could infect the entire machine). I've used the defrag function hundreds of times with nary a glitch, and I have only one partition...or did, until just a couple of months ago. I wonder if the problems with Norton don't involve situations where Windows 95 has been installed over/next to another OS (like Windows 3.1). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:23:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? In-Reply-To: <199810240110.VAA32192@camel26.mindspring.com> At 06:05 PM 10/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >I installed Norton 3.0 when I got my new machine about 2.5 years ago. It >came with W95 preinstalled...maybe that's the difference. Norton has >performed flawlessly for me (even alerted me to a virus on a floppy before >it could infect the entire machine). For me, it detected a virus that didn't exist then trashed my hard disk when I told it to fix the virus. Later I actually had a MS-Word virus and the virus checker never detected it. I sent contaminated files to several clients. > >I wonder if the problems with Norton don't involve situations where Windows >95 has been installed over/next to another OS (like Windows 3.1). My experiences with 3.0 were on a brand new machine. My computer guru refuses to support PCs that have Norton installed. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:58:34 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mstewart Subject: Per-page rates & contracts I've been offered my first job, so I'm turning to the collective wisdom for advice. What would be a reasonable (or average) rate per indexable page for a book with the following characteristics? The book is about microoptics, and is written at a level that requires the reader to possess a good grounding in physics and a bit of specialized knowledge of optics. I have the page proofs, so I have a realistic picture of what I'm getting into. The total length is 328 pages, but if chapters two and six are typical, it's 60-65% figures and tables, which will not be indexed, so I'm probably looking at about 120-130 indexable pages. It isn't printed very densely - the print is a comfortable size to read, the line length is 4.5 inches, with a maximum of 42 lines per page. I'm dealing directly with the author, who is a colleague and a friend. To ensure that we're still friends when the project is finished, we'll need a written contract. Where can I find some sample contracts that I can access immediately so I can have something ready to sign by the middle of next week? (I'm writing this late on Friday evening.) If samples aren't that readily available (or even if they are), I'd be enormously grateful for any advice. Fortunately, the deadline for the project is about six weeks away. I'm an extreme beginner, and have a full-time day job. It will take me much longer to do the work at a professional level of quality, so I certainly won't make the minimum acceptable per-hour rate, even though I'll be asking a standard rate per page. He knows that I have no experience and have just begun the USDA Basic Indexing course, but he also knows that I won't accept what he called "practice rates". Thanks to recent threads here, I had all the ammunition needed to set him straight! ------------------------------------- Name: Marianna Stewart E-mail:mstewart@stny.lrun.com Date: 10/23/98 Time: 9:58:34 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 08:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Per-page rates & contracts Marianna - This is a private reply, NOT posted to the list. You can obtain a sample contract from ASI. The following is from their website: ASI Recommended Indexing Agreement The agreement is offered as an example of some of the issues that may occur in indexer/publisher relationships. Both disk and paper copies are included. You may use the agreement as the basis for contracts you may wish to establish with clients. It is recommended that you consult professional legal counsel to obtain advice about any contract you may sign or offer a client. Please specify disk size and density when ordering. Price: $5 for ASI members, $10 for nonmembers You can reach them at (206) 241-9196 (Seattle). I think it is great that your friend is willing to give you a shot at it, but when you say you are a rank beginner and have just BEGUN the USDA course.... I have completed the course, and am a chemist, so I can appreciate the nature of the text. I too, would probably have asked you for "practice rates" given your level of training, if it was my book you were indexing. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but I think you just need to come up with some flat rate for the job (given that you have the whole text to see in advance) that both you and your friend are comfortable with. I would not expect it to be as high as a standard rate. Recently, someone on this list commented that their bottom rate was $3/page. Perhaps you should quote at half that, or $1.75-$2 per page, based on the 130 page length. Point out to your friend that these rates will never again be in effect, but that was what your friends on "the list" told you was fair AT THIS STAGE OF YOUR TRAINING. Don't ignore the fact that you would have a "real" index to point to, even before you finish the course. Iris mstewart wrote: > I've been offered my first job, so I'm turning to the > collective wisdom for advice. > > What would be a reasonable (or average) rate per indexable > page for a book with the following characteristics? > > The book is about microoptics, and is written at a level that > requires the reader to possess a good grounding in physics > and a bit of specialized knowledge of optics. I have the > page proofs, so I have a realistic picture of what I'm > getting into. The total length is 328 pages, but if chapters > two and six are typical, it's 60-65% figures and tables, > which will not be indexed, so I'm probably looking at about > 120-130 indexable pages. It isn't printed very densely - the > print is a comfortable size to read, the line length is 4.5 > inches, with a maximum of 42 lines per page. > > I'm dealing directly with the author, who is a colleague and > a friend. To ensure that we're still friends when the > project is finished, we'll need a written contract. Where > can I find some sample contracts that I can access > immediately so I can have something ready to sign by the > middle of next week? (I'm writing this late on Friday > evening.) If samples aren't that readily available (or even > if they are), I'd be enormously grateful for any advice. > > Fortunately, the deadline for the project is about six weeks > away. I'm an extreme beginner, and have a full-time day job. > It will take me much longer to do the work at a professional > level of quality, so I certainly won't make the minimum > acceptable per-hour rate, even though I'll be asking a > standard rate per page. He knows that I have no experience > and have just begun the USDA Basic Indexing course, but he > also knows that I won't accept what he called "practice > rates". Thanks to recent threads here, I had all the > ammunition needed to set him straight! > ------------------------------------- > Name: Marianna Stewart > E-mail:mstewart@stny.lrun.com > Date: 10/23/98 > Time: 9:58:34 PM > > This message was sent by Chameleon > ------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 08:30:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Per-page rates & contracts OOPS - It wasn't a private reply, but I stand by what I said. Iris Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik wrote: > Marianna - > > This is a private reply, NOT posted to the list. > > You can obtain a sample contract from ASI. The following is from their > website: > > ASI Recommended Indexing Agreement > The agreement is offered as an example of some of the issues that may > occur in indexer/publisher relationships. > Both disk and paper copies are included. You may use the agreement as > the basis for contracts you may wish to > establish with clients. It is recommended that you consult professional > legal counsel to obtain advice about any > contract you may sign or offer a client. Please specify disk size and > density when ordering. > Price: $5 for ASI members, $10 for nonmembers > > You can reach them at (206) 241-9196 (Seattle). > > I think it is great that your friend is willing to give you a shot at > it, but when you say you are a rank beginner and have just BEGUN the > USDA course.... I have completed the course, and am a chemist, so I can > appreciate the nature of the text. I too, would probably have asked you > for "practice rates" given your level of training, if it was my book you > were indexing. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but I think > you just need to come up with some flat rate for the job (given that you > have the whole text to see in advance) that both you and your friend are > comfortable with. I would not expect it to be as high as a standard > rate. > > Recently, someone on this list commented that their bottom rate was > $3/page. Perhaps you should quote at half that, or $1.75-$2 per page, > based on the 130 page length. Point out to your friend that these rates > will never again be in effect, but that was what your friends on "the > list" told you was fair AT THIS STAGE OF YOUR TRAINING. Don't ignore > the fact that you would have a "real" index to point to, even before you > finish the course. > > Iris > > mstewart wrote: > > > I've been offered my first job, so I'm turning to the > > collective wisdom for advice. > > > > What would be a reasonable (or average) rate per indexable > > page for a book with the following characteristics? > > > > The book is about microoptics, and is written at a level that > > requires the reader to possess a good grounding in physics > > and a bit of specialized knowledge of optics. I have the > > page proofs, so I have a realistic picture of what I'm > > getting into. The total length is 328 pages, but if chapters > > two and six are typical, it's 60-65% figures and tables, > > which will not be indexed, so I'm probably looking at about > > 120-130 indexable pages. It isn't printed very densely - the > > print is a comfortable size to read, the line length is 4.5 > > inches, with a maximum of 42 lines per page. > > > > I'm dealing directly with the author, who is a colleague and > > a friend. To ensure that we're still friends when the > > project is finished, we'll need a written contract. Where > > can I find some sample contracts that I can access > > immediately so I can have something ready to sign by the > > middle of next week? (I'm writing this late on Friday > > evening.) If samples aren't that readily available (or even > > if they are), I'd be enormously grateful for any advice. > > > > Fortunately, the deadline for the project is about six weeks > > away. I'm an extreme beginner, and have a full-time day job. > > It will take me much longer to do the work at a professional > > level of quality, so I certainly won't make the minimum > > acceptable per-hour rate, even though I'll be asking a > > standard rate per page. He knows that I have no experience > > and have just begun the USDA Basic Indexing course, but he > > also knows that I won't accept what he called "practice > > rates". Thanks to recent threads here, I had all the > > ammunition needed to set him straight! > > ------------------------------------- > > Name: Marianna Stewart > > E-mail:mstewart@stny.lrun.com > > Date: 10/23/98 > > Time: 9:58:34 PM > > > > This message was sent by Chameleon > > ------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 08:43:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Guenther Subject: Re: Per-page rates & contracts In-Reply-To: <199810241228.IAA02345@carriage.chesco.com> >Recently, someone on this list commented that their bottom rate was >$3/page.=A0 Perhaps you should quote at half that, or $1.75-$2 per page, >based on the 130 page length.=A0 Point out to your friend that these rates >will never again be in effect, but that was what your friends on "the >list" told you was fair AT THIS STAGE OF YOUR TRAINING.=A0 Don't ignore >the fact that you would have a "real" index to point to, even before you >finish the course. Given the level of technical expertise the text requires, something it= sounds like you have the experience to handle, be very careful not to start too= low. If you go with a per page rate -- a standard per page rate -- based on the technical nature of the project, you will still end up offering your friend= a bargain because as a beginner you will, in all probability be working at a slower rate than those of us who have been developing our skills for years, and therefore your hourly rate will be impacted. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:12:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Getting a journal into LISA Most indexing and abstracting services (like LISA) have specific policies as to what they cover. Your best bet is to send a sample copy of your journal to the index's editorial offices, with a cover letter asking to have it considered for indexing. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA In a message dated 10/23/98 9:09:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU writes: > > I would like to know how can I get my journal published in Library > of > Information Science Abstract indexes. The name of the Journal is Journal > of Global Information Technology Management. You can view the journal at > this website: > > http://www.people.memphis.edu/~ppalvia/jgitm.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:14:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: second editions Just wanted to share my experience with you all ....... I am working for a good client, on an index for a second edition of a book. I was told that the index of the original book was a good one, and the client could provide the file of the original index. With help (thank you, Gale), it is in Macrex, and I proceeded to work with a printout of the index in alpha order and another in page number order. My editor, being a dear, even highlighted the new material that was added. However, nothing could be done to indicate any portions that were deleted in the rewrite for the new edition. I figured it MIGHT be OK to work this way, rather than approaching the job as if it were a new book that needed indexing. I was marking the page # changes in red and intending to make those changes later. I thought I'd save myself all of the basic input. Well, to make a long story short, I fought it for a about two half days, getting through only 80 pages worth of the book, and feeling very unsure about it all. It was tedious, I didn't like working that way, and had a very uneasy feeling that things might remain in the index that no longer belonged there and that there were mistakes. I just gave up. I have to work "my way". I am inputting the entries for these first 80 or so pages into a fresh file, will read the 80 pages again and basically index them and check the file I came out with, to be sure I like what I've done and it's "my work". From then on, I intend to do the indexing work as if it were a new project, and ignore the printouts and old file completely. Has anybody else had this experience? Just wondering. I feel as if I have to turn in an index that is "my work", and not a re-do of somebody else's. Updating doesn't work for me, unless perhaps if it were my work (the original was done by me). I'm not sure. Working away this weekend ...... Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:53:55 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: second editions Janet Perlman wrote about her experience in indexing a second edition. Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: second editions At 01:14 AM 10/25/98 EST, JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: >Just wanted to share my experience with you all ....... > >I am working for a good client, on an index for a second edition of a book. I >was told that the index of the original book was a good one, and the client >could provide the file of the original index. With help (thank you, Gale), it >is in Macrex, and I proceeded to work with a printout of the index in alpha >order and another in page number order. My editor, being a dear, even >highlighted the new material that was added. However, nothing could be done >to indicate any portions that were deleted in the rewrite for the new edition. My recent experience might also be of interest to someone: I just did a project where I was to repaginate the index to a new printing of a book. I was given free rein to redo the index if I saw fit (and I did that, too). But my job was essentially a repagination project and fortunately the index was pretty short (6 pages in fairly large type with wide columnns). Also the basic concepts in the original index were good, too, so I had something worthwhile to work with. The original index had been done by the authors/editors. So I keyed in the entire index with the page numbers--there was no digital copy (I might have been able to scan it, true, but the time it would have taken to do that and then make it fit into a CINDEX file would have taken longer because of having to drive to do the scanning, etc.). Then I sorted the file in CINDEX by page number and made my way through the text page by page, changing the page numbers--there was no real system to this so it had be done on case by case basis--and adding or deleting terms and subheadings. I discovered as I went along that I could pretty much count on the page numbers to have been reduced, chapter by chapter, anywhere from 2-4 pages per chapter, with a few terms sneaking back 3 pages instead of four, etc. That made it easier, so I did the ALTER references command for each range of pages in the chapters and it worked quite well. The original index, I forgot to mention, was so short because there were very few subheadings, but long ranges of page numbers were common. Because CINDEX has the wonderful ability to find terms when you type a few letters (this does not mean the FIND or Go To commands, which are also VERY useful), I was able to breeze through the project because I could find the terms in the old index (or not find them as the case might be) as I went through the text. It was certainly easier than trying to work with just a hardcopy of the index. I was amazed by how much time I saved in the end by doing this. That is, by having the main terms already typed up. If I ever got a large project of dozens of pages of old index to work from, I might have the old index scanned and put into CINDEX format so that I could save time by not having to rekey main terms. Another thing--I recently indexed a journal again that I had indexed last year. I made a copy of the old file and renamed it. I stripped out the page numbers in the new file and put Xs in the page field so that I could later easily remove any terms that were not discussed in this last year's version of the journal. Some people use extensive abbreviation files but I find that with the new CINDEX it is just as easy to type the first few letters as I mentioned above (for the most part). However, I do use extensive abbreviation files for medical materials. I keep a print out of the appropriate abbreviations file next to my screen for easy remembering. I agree with both Janet and Christine that generally repagination jobs are hellish if all that is required is the insertion of new page numbers into old slots. (I had one like that, too, recently, where I was not allowed to change anything in the index, and I will never work under those circumstances again.) If there is time, creating a new index is always preferable, especially if there have been major changes in the text. The project I discussed above was straightforward AND I had permission to make changes as I saw fit, and so naturally I did make changes. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: second editions In-Reply-To: <199810250616.BAA05112@camel9.mindspring.com> At 01:14 AM 10/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Has anybody else had this experience? Just wondering. I feel as if I have to >turn in an index that is "my work", and not a re-do of somebody else's. >Updating doesn't work for me, unless perhaps if it were my work (the original >was done by me). I'm not sure. Absolutely. I have successfully done a second edition when I also did the first edition. I sort the first edition Cindex file in page order and match entries page by page. It's tedious and takes almost as much time as doing it from scratch, but it's doable. On the other hand, I would not care to work from someone else's first edition. It feels like walking into someone else's finely landscaped lawn and hacking and slashing individual shrubs without really understanding the overall effect. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:01:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: second editions In-Reply-To: <199810251247.HAA32346@camel23.mindspring.com> At 07:44 AM 10/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Because CINDEX has the wonderful ability to find terms when you type >a few letters >Some people use extensive abbreviation files but I find that >with the new CINDEX it is just as easy to type the first few letters as I >mentioned above (for the most part). The above comments sound like two different features. I know the Windows Cindex had the ability to *find* entries by typing the first few letters, but I didn't know it could *complete* entries (after the fasion of SkyIndex). Is that a new feature? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 07:09:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: second editions At 09:54 AM 10/25/1998 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >Absolutely. I have successfully done a second edition when I also did the >first edition. I sort the first edition Cindex file in page order and >match entries page by page. It's tedious and takes almost as much time as >doing it from scratch, but it's doable. I've been "redoing" a multivolume tax preparation handbook for a number of years, and do essentially what Dick describes. Though unlike him, I'm sure I save at least 1/3 of the time it would take to do the index from scratch, because I'm not typing in any of the heads or subheads (unless there are new ones). In addition, I feel it has helped me refine the index quite a bit. Every year, I tweak it a little, and I'm quite pleased with the result. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:21:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Advisor needed in/near Anaheim CA. Howdy, collective wisdom. A friend's sister is a lawyer and is very interested in learning about indexing. I need to find some legal indexing types, or someone willing to talk to her about indexing, near Anaheim. If you're willing to do this, please respond off-list. I'll forward a list to my friend's sister and email those answering to let you know who to expect to call. Thanks. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:45:14 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Graf Subject: Geography Question I am trying to create some fairly simple (or so I thought!) cross-references for "Armenia" and "Russia", among others. I have consulted several standard geographic references, and have received conflicting information. Are Armenia and Russia currently considered part of Asia or Europe or both (or neither?!) Is Armenia currently considered a part of the Middle East? Examples: Europe Armenia Austria France Greece Italy Russia ("Armenia" and "Russia" look "funny" to me in this list.) Asia Armenia Cambodia Japan Mongolia Russia ("Armenia" and "Russia" look funny to me also in this list.) Middle East Armenia Egypt Israel Morocco ("Armenia" looks really funny to me in this list--just doesn't have the right "feel.") Perhaps "Armenia" and "Russia" should stand on their own? Two other questions: 1) Is it correct to say that "Mexico" is a part of North America? 2) Should "Mediterranean" and "Caribbean" have "the" included in their references; should "the" be initial capped?: Caribbean, the Barbados Cuba Mediterranean, the Greece Italy Thank you, in advance. DEBBIE GRAF ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Rofman Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Other indexing courses Regarding concerns about the USDA course-has anyone taken the course noted on the Society of Indexers website given by Ann Hall? They noted its very similar to their course but uses tutorials. What exactly is a tutorial in this context? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:45:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: second editions At 10:01 AM 10/25/98 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >At 07:44 AM 10/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Because CINDEX has the wonderful ability to find terms when you type >>a few letters > >>Some people use extensive abbreviation files but I find that >>with the new CINDEX it is just as easy to type the first few letters as I >>mentioned above (for the most part). > >The above comments sound like two different features. I know the Windows >Cindex had the ability to *find* entries by typing the first few letters, >but I didn't know it could *complete* entries (after the fasion of >SkyIndex). Is that a new feature? I did not mean to imply that you can complete entire words; I just meant that rather than typing two or three letters for an abbreviation, for me, it is just as easy to type the first two or three letters of a main heading and then create a new record based on the one that pops up. Such a feature, to complete entire entries using the two or three letters, WOULD be nice. Abbreviations are useful to create entire words, but I find I canot remember all of the pertinent abbreviations even with the print out of the appropriate abbreviations file next to my desk. So for me, abbreviations are not always faster. Sorry for any confusion in the previous post. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jenny S." Subject: Re: Geography Question Just an unresearched thought but I would have to consider a term such as Eurasia when referring to Russia and Armenia. Note that Russia could be considered Europe except that I think it includes Siberia which is clearly Asia. But then, last I knew Russia hadn't joined the EU so perhaps its not Europe. Also, depending on the period, there is the politically centered Soviet Socialist Republic in the case of Armenia. Depending on context Mexico could be North America or Central America. Personally, I would igonor any use of "the" with Mediterranean etc. Perhaps an oversimplified answer but the context should give some clues and much depends on what time period you are covering and whether you are concerned with geography or political terms. Jenny S -----Original Message----- >I am trying to create some fairly simple (or so I thought!) cross-references >for "Armenia" and "Russia", among others. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:04:31 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: second editions Christine Shuttleworth wrote: > > The idea that it is a comparatively simple job "just" to > replace old page numbers with new ones may derive from some > lingering notion that indexing is an automatic process ...and she's right. But the publisher isn't asking for the highly complex and creative art of indexing--just the mindless drudgery of search and replace. Embedded index entries would have made this a five-minute job--allowing about FOUR AND A HALF minutes to find the source files, open the appropriate program, save the updated index, and send the output to the publisher by e-mail. The publisher is just expressing the quite reasonable notion that replacing old page numbers is something a computer can do more quickly and more accurately than a person. If that's what the publisher wants and perhaps all the book needs, then why shouldn't the indexer provide it? --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:15:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: second editions In-Reply-To: <199810251705.MAA12310@camel9.mindspring.com> At 09:04 AM 11/25/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Embedded index entries would have made this a five-minute job--allowing >about FOUR AND A HALF minutes to find the source files, open the >appropriate program, save the updated index, and send the output to the >publisher by e-mail. Assuming the first edition had embedded tags, how do you create the tags for the updated second edition? How do you verify that text that was deleted from the first edition didn't compromise the integrity fo the index by deleteing cross reference targets? Any way you slice it, it's more than four and a half minutes. >The publisher is just expressing the quite reasonable notion that >replacing old page numbers Reasonable as a notion, but not as a matter of practicality. It's only reasonable if the first edition had an adequately prepared embedded index and the second edition has changed only in organization: no new material, no deleted material. Indeed, you can probably *recompile* an index in a few minutes, but that is the most trivial part of reindexing a second edition. >If that's what the publisher wants >and perhaps all the book needs, then why shouldn't the indexer provide >it? Um, because the book in question did not have an embedded index? And for the reasons stated above? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:01:44 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: second editions Hang on! I was responding to a message in which a publisher had asked the indexer to "replace the old page numbers," and the indexer was concerned about accuracy and thoroughness. The point of my response was that replacing old page numbers--merely "recompiling the index"--is precisely the kind of task at which computers outperform humans. As for Mr. Evans' other comments and questions: * OF COURSE embedded tags help with a second edition only if they were embedded in the first edition. (Good grief!) * OF COURSE deleted material may change your decisions about how to cast and organize remaining entries. * OF COURSE new material needs index entries. * OF COURSE you have to refine the results of any substantive changes. Again, the original statement and my response pertained to replacing the old page numbers. In all my statements about embedding as an indexing technique, I've never claimed that indexing was easy--just that compiling indexes should be. I still contend that well-formed embedded index entries (in conjunction with a well-designed indexing tool) are a means to that end. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:19:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Geography Question In-Reply-To: <199810251546.HAA22657@neti.saber.net> >I am trying to create some fairly simple (or so I thought!) cross-references >for "Armenia" and "Russia", among others. I have consulted several standard >geographic references, and have received conflicting information. > >Are Armenia and Russia currently considered part of Asia or Europe or both (or >neither?!) Is Armenia currently considered a part of the Middle East? > >Examples: > >Europe > Armenia > Austria > France > Greece > Italy > Russia > >("Armenia" and "Russia" look "funny" to me in this list.) > >Asia > Armenia > Cambodia > Japan > Mongolia > Russia > >("Armenia" and "Russia" look funny to me also in this list.) > >Middle East > Armenia > Egypt > Israel > Morocco > >("Armenia" looks really funny to me in this list--just doesn't have the right >"feel.") > >Perhaps "Armenia" and "Russia" should stand on their own? > >Two other questions: 1) Is it correct to say that "Mexico" is a part of North >America? 2) Should "Mediterranean" and "Caribbean" have "the" included in >their references; should "the" be initial capped?: > >Caribbean, the > Barbados > Cuba > >Mediterranean, the > Greece > Italy > > >Thank you, in advance. > >DEBBIE GRAF Debbie, I've deduced the following using the Geographic Names Index in the back of the MWC Dictionary 10th edition. Europe Armenia Austria France Greece Italy Russia Asia Cambodia Israel Japan Mongolia Russia Middle East Egypt Israel Africa Egypt Morocco Mexico is part of Central America. IMHO: If Middle East doesn't have "The" then "Mediterranean" and "Caribbean" don't need it either. (I think it's fine to omit "The.") Or, all may have "The" initially and it's not alpha sorted, of course. The Caribbean The Mediterranean The Middle East Hope this helps. Naomi ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:01:37 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jgreene Subject: Re: Other indexing courses Hello Barry, I am almost through the SOI course, having only one more unit to complete. The way that the SOI course works is this: There are five separate units to study on your own. You must request (separately) the formal tests for each of those units. You can order all five units at once or you can order the units one at a time. Each unit presents material to study and a self-administered test, which will help you to prepare for the formal test. When you are ready, you order the test for the unit you have studied. The test is sent to you by mail from London. You have approx 3 wks to complete the test and mail it back to London where someone will mark and evaluate your work. You will be notified by mail (within approx 3 wks) whether you have failed or passed the test. You will not get back the material you submitted, but you will receive a written report which briefly tells you about errors that the marker detected along with general about the quality of your work. When you have completed all five units and all five tests successfully, you become an "Accredited Indexer". In addition to the five units, you will need to purchase British Standards to use as reference tools for answering questions on the tests. I acquired five of these British Standards to keep as ready reference and had to do a considerable amount of visiting my local library to access additional reference material to answer test questions. With reference to the tutorial support, I have never used it, but this is what the literature states: "Tutorial support is available - for an additional charge set by the tutor - to trainees who are members of the Society. Tutors do not mark the formal Test Papers, but can help with enquiries and advise whether a trainee is ready to undertake a Test Paper." In addition to this suppport, the Society runs occasional workshops for trainees at various locations---mainly in the UK, I suppose. Since I live in Germany, I did not have easy access to these workshops. One more thing. I see in the literature which is provided by the Society that a trainee who is also a Society member can obtain "telephone advice" on topics covered in the Course Units or on the Standards. The trainee sends a query in to a Training and Research Board course adviser who will then telephone the trainee to discuss the query. I have never used this service, and suspect that it is most likely limited to those trainees living in the UK. I have not checked the Society's web site to see if it is possible to email a query to an adviser and perhaps be in touch through email or a chat service, which would be a great idea! I hope that this answer helps you understand the SOI course a little better and am sorry to have rambled on beyond the bounds of your exact question. If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know. Sincerely, Joyce Barry Rofman wrote: > Regarding concerns about the USDA course-has anyone taken the course > noted on the Society of Indexers website given by Ann Hall? They noted > its very similar to their course but uses tutorials. What exactly is a > tutorial in this context? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:02:21 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? In a message dated 10/23/98 10:55:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM writes: > > Somewhere I read that Norton Utilities 3.0 for Windows 95 > is buggy, or showing problems. Does anyone know if this is a true fact? > > It would be a pity, as I just bought the thing. Since this is > not strictly an indexer's problem you should reply privately. > > Cheers, > Dave Talcott A suggestion: check the documentation to see if there is any "guarantee" offered by the software producer. When McAfee's PC Medic 97 trashed my system, at least I did get my measley 20 bucks back. Ann Truesdale anntrue@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:08:48 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Geography Question << Depending on context Mexico could be North America or Central America. >> Actually, as far as I know, Mexico is in North America, period. I believe that Russia is part in Europe, part in Asia (the reason it looks "funny" in both lists). Widening the discussion a little (and I know you weren't asking about this directly): I don't know the context of the book you're working on, but are you sure it's appropriate to have a list of countries under each continent? Are your readers going to look under the continent or are they more likely to look under the individual country? In that case, if you still needed an entry for the continent (because it was discussed en masse sometimes, for instance) you could use a see also reference: Europe, See also ^specific countries^. (Again, the appropriateness of this depends on the book.) Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:24:36 -0800 Reply-To: penguins@wave.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Breffni Whelan Subject: Re: Geography Question How about using "Mediterranean Sea" or "Mediterranean region" and "Caribbean Islands" (if not referring to the east coast of Central America and Venezuela as well). Or "Caribbean region (or area)." This will eliminate the "the" altogether. You will oftimes find Armenia included in, for example, Middle Eastern cookbooks. Also, until World War I and its unfortunate occurences in the area, the Armenian "nation" (people, not independent country) also occupied a section of Turkey as least as large as the current Republic of Armenia, and Turkey is generally considered the Middle East (although there are some E. C.-oriented Turks that would like to consider it part of Europe [ which in fact part of Turkey is, though not the part the Armenians formerly inhabited.] ) And both Russia and the current Armenian state are part of the "Commonwealth of Independent States." I always thought the Europe-Asia border ran north of Armenia, along the crest of the Caucasian Mtns.... ---- Breffni -----Original Message----- From: J. Naomi Linzer To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Sunday, October 25, 1998 11:25 AM Subject: Re: Geography Question >>I am trying to create some fairly simple (or so I thought!) cross-references >>for "Armenia" and "Russia", among others. I have consulted several standard >>geographic references, and have received conflicting information. >> >>Are Armenia and Russia currently considered part of Asia or Europe or both (or >>neither?!) Is Armenia currently considered a part of the Middle East? >> >>Examples: >> >>Europe >> Armenia >> Austria >> France >> Greece >> Italy >> Russia >> >>("Armenia" and "Russia" look "funny" to me in this list.) >> >>Asia >> Armenia >> Cambodia >> Japan >> Mongolia >> Russia >> >>("Armenia" and "Russia" look funny to me also in this list.) >> >>Middle East >> Armenia >> Egypt >> Israel >> Morocco >> >>("Armenia" looks really funny to me in this list--just doesn't have the right >>"feel.") >> >>Perhaps "Armenia" and "Russia" should stand on their own? >> >>Two other questions: 1) Is it correct to say that "Mexico" is a part of North >>America? 2) Should "Mediterranean" and "Caribbean" have "the" included in >>their references; should "the" be initial capped?: >> >>Caribbean, the >> Barbados >> Cuba >> >>Mediterranean, the >> Greece >> Italy >> >> >>Thank you, in advance. >> >>DEBBIE GRAF > >Debbie, > >I've deduced the following using the Geographic Names Index in the back of >the MWC Dictionary 10th edition. > >Europe > Armenia > Austria > France > Greece > Italy > Russia > >Asia > Cambodia > Israel > Japan > Mongolia > Russia > >Middle East > Egypt > Israel > >Africa > Egypt > Morocco > >Mexico is part of Central America. > >IMHO: >If Middle East doesn't have "The" then "Mediterranean" and "Caribbean" >don't need it either. (I think it's fine to omit "The.") Or, all may have >"The" initially and it's not alpha sorted, of course. > >The Caribbean >The Mediterranean >The Middle East > >Hope this helps. >Naomi > > >*************************************************************************** ***** >Ms. J. Naomi Linzer >Indexing Services >POB 1341 >Redway, CA 95560 >(707) 923-4361 >jnlinzer@saber.net >*************************************************************************** ***** >******* > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:57:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Rofman Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Other indexing courses outside the US Hi Joyce, Thanks very much for the information on the SOI course. I was waiting to hear about it from another recent listing and welcome the quick answer. My listing actually referred to a course given only by Ann Hall, who lives in Scotland and apparently does something similar to the SOI but entirely by tutorial. I've ordered a set of self-tests from the SOI to see how it compares to the USDA Basic Course and wanted to know about her offering, too. I'd rather be over than under prepared and may end up taking one or both in addition to the Basic course though I don't know if I'll bother with the formal accreditation since it isn't required in the US. Becky R. jgreene wrote: > > Hello Barry, > > I am almost through the SOI course, having only one more unit to complete. > > The way that the SOI course works is this: There are five separate units > to study on your own. You must request (separately) the formal tests for > each of those units. You can order all five units at once or you can > order the units one at a time. Each unit presents material to study and a > self-administered test, which will help you to prepare for the formal > test. When you are ready, you order the test for the unit you have > studied. The test is sent to you by mail from London. You have approx 3 > wks to complete the test and mail it back to London where someone will > mark and evaluate your work. You will be notified by mail (within approx > 3 wks) whether you have failed or passed the test. You will not get back > the material you submitted, but you will receive a written report which > briefly tells you about errors that the marker detected along with general > about the quality of your work. When you have completed all five units > and all five tests successfully, you become an "Accredited Indexer". > > In addition to the five units, you will need to purchase British Standards > to use as reference tools for answering questions on the tests. I > acquired five of these British Standards to keep as ready reference and > had to do a considerable amount of visiting my local library to access > additional reference material to answer test questions. > > With reference to the tutorial support, I have never used it, but this is > what the literature states: "Tutorial support is available - for an > additional charge set by the tutor - to trainees who are members of the > Society. Tutors do not mark the formal Test Papers, but can help with > enquiries and advise whether a trainee is ready to undertake a Test > Paper." In addition to this suppport, the Society runs occasional > workshops for trainees at various locations---mainly in the UK, I > suppose. Since I live in Germany, I did not have easy access to these > workshops. > > One more thing. I see in the literature which is provided by the Society > that a trainee who is also a Society member can obtain "telephone advice" > on topics covered in the Course Units or on the Standards. The trainee > sends a query in to a Training and Research Board course adviser who will > then telephone the trainee to discuss the query. I have never used this > service, and suspect that it is most likely limited to those trainees > living in the UK. I have not checked the Society's web site to see if it > is possible to email a query to an adviser and perhaps be in touch through > email or a chat service, which would be a great idea! > > I hope that this answer helps you understand the SOI course a little > better and am sorry to have rambled on beyond the bounds of your exact > question. > > If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know. > > Sincerely, Joyce > > Barry Rofman wrote: > > > Regarding concerns about the USDA course-has anyone taken the course > > noted on the Society of Indexers website given by Ann Hall? They noted > > its very similar to their course but uses tutorials. What exactly is a > > tutorial in this context? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 18:19:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Geography Question In-Reply-To: <199810260111.RAA28511@neti.saber.net> ><< Depending on context Mexico could be North America or Central America. >> Do Mi said: >Actually, as far as I know, Mexico is in North America, period. I misread the Dictionary which says on p.1491 Mexico S N. America. Must wear my glasses next time. Naomi ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:36:20 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Nash Subject: Re: Per-page rates & contracts In the message from mstewart , Marianna said: > .............. The total length is 328 pages, but if chapters > two and six are typical, it's 60-65% figures and tables, > which will not be indexed, so I'm probably looking at about > 120-130 indexable pages. It isn't printed very densely - the > print is a comfortable size to read, the line length is 4.5 > inches, with a maximum of 42 lines per page. The comment "...figures and tables which will not be indexed" is a little disturbing. In a technical text like this (microoptics, I believe) the information contained in figures and tables is as important (for reader access) as is the main text. As a professional indexer (20 years' experience) I would ALWAYS include such data/information (from figures and tables) in the index. On rates, I believe a novice should charge bottom rate (but NOT 50%) for the first index, and should expect to spend 2 or 3 times usual time (i.e. page rate the same, but hourly rate lower) Paul Nash Registered Indexer with (UK) Society of Indexers e-mail: paulnash@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:02:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Schroeder Subject: Indexing Courses I am about to teach Indexing for the first time and am interested in having running copies of Macrex and Cindex for the students to use for at least two sessions. Since I do not use these programs, I am interested in any contacts or suggestions you may have. Do they give out copies to Universities for training? Thanks. Kim Schroeder Archive Impact www.archiveimpact.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:54:54 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Other indexing courses The message <199810251557.PAA18731@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from Barry Rofman contains these words: > Regarding concerns about the USDA course-has anyone taken the course > noted on the Society of Indexers website given by Ann Hall? They noted > its very similar to their course but uses tutorials. What exactly is a > tutorial in this context? Barry, if you can get hold of a copy of the October 1997 issue of The Indexer, it includes an article by Ann Hall and a descriptive advertisement for the course. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 05:07:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Thomas P. Copley" Subject: ANNOUNCE> Fall/Winter Web Workshops Now Open Workshops on the World Wide Web (WWW) for the beginner and slightly more advanced user will be conducted this fall and winter by Arlington Courseware. All four are distance-learning workshops that are conducted entirely by email and the Web. NEW>> GROWING MINDSHARE WORKSHOP: OUTREACH FOR YOUR WEBSITE ^^^ This workshop focuses on enhancing mindshare, that ephemeral quality that causes users to put your site at the top of their short list relating to a particular topic or subject. The workshop covers positioning on search engines and indices, the latest in meta information, including RDF and Dublin Core, as well as publicity and promotion techniques. The cost is $35. For further information, see the Growing Mindshare home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/grow.html DYNAMIC DUO WORKSHOP: XML & DYNAMIC HTML This workshop introduces the beginner to XML (Extensible Markup Language) and some of its major supporting standards such as XSL (Extensible Stylesheet Language) and the DOM (Document Object Model). Covers elementary applications of dynamic HTML (DHTML). The cost is $30. For more information, see the Dynamic Duo homepage (Note: starts in December): http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/duo.html TUNE IN THE NET: GLOBAL REACH FOR THE 21ST CENTURY This workshop concentrates on Internet interactivity and assisting the more experienced user in making his or her Web pages into a standout interactive site. It is a sequel to Make the Link: The cost is $40. For additional information, see the Tune In the Net homepage: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/tune.html MAKE THE LINK WORKSHOP: WORLD WIDE WEB FOR EVERYONE This elementary workshop focuses on how to gain maximum advantage from the Web. It covers Web navigation, searching, and beginning HTML authoring. The cost is $20. For further information, see the Make the Link http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/links.html Package prices are available: $99 for first three workshops listed $109 for all four workshops HOW TO SIGN UP Sign up for ONE session of each workshop only unless you plan to take it more than once. To sign up, please send an email message to the address: majordomo@arlington.com and in the body of the message: include the words: to subscribe to: Dates: ------------------ ---------------- ------ subscribe grow Growing Mindshare Nov 2-Dec 10 subscribe duo-dec Dec session of Dynamic Duo Dec 1-Jan 8 subscribe duo-jan Jan session of Dynamic Duo Jan 4-Feb 12 subscribe tune-nov Nov session of Tune In the Net Nov 2-Dec 21 subscribe tune-dec Dec session of Tune In the Net Dec 1-Jan 22 subscribe links-nov Nov session of Make the Link Nov 2-Dec 21 subscribe links-dec Dec session of Make the Link Dec 1-Jan 22 This will automatically put you on the mailing list for more information about each workshop, and you will receive an acknowledgment with the particulars about signing up, and unsubscribing, should you decide not to participate. If you have any difficulty with this procedure or fail to receive a response, please send email to the address in the signature line. * A plain ASCII text version is also available. ________________________________________________________________ THOMAS P. COPLEY tcopley@arlington.com Growing Mindshare Workshop www.bearfountain.com/arlington/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:42:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barczak, Jessie" Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? Can I ask a stupid question: Why are you using 3.0 instead of a later version? > -----Original Message----- > From: Ann Truesdale [SMTP:Anntrue@AOL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 8:02 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? > > In a message dated 10/23/98 10:55:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > 75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM writes: > > > > > Somewhere I read that Norton Utilities 3.0 for Windows 95 > > is buggy, or showing problems. Does anyone know if this is a true fact? > > > > It would be a pity, as I just bought the thing. Since this is > > not strictly an indexer's problem you should reply privately. > > > > Cheers, > > Dave Talcott > > A suggestion: check the documentation to see if there is any "guarantee" > offered by the software producer. When McAfee's PC Medic 97 trashed my > system, > at least I did get my measley 20 bucks back. > > Ann Truesdale > anntrue@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Ogden Organization: Ogden Indexing & Technical Writing Services Subject: Organizing exercises for workshop I'm about to teach a small indexing workshop and would like some opinions on the most effective way to organize the exercises. The workshop is geared specifically to indexing technical manuals and online help. In the past, I've used a series of short examples (1-5 pages of indexable material) and had students mark the main entries, sub-entries, and cross-refs in one exercise. We would then discuss and compare the results. I'm thinking using the same indexable material but having the students mark main entries in exercise 1, sub-entries in exercise 2, and cross-refs in exercise 3. Personally, when indexing, I mark everything in one pass, but think breaking up the components might help to emphasize learning. What's your opinion? Karen Ogden -- Ogden Indexing & Technical Writing Services http://www.ultranet.com/~kao ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 06:13:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: second editions In-Reply-To: <199810250622.XAA08263@decibel.electriciti.com> I agree with Janet that, for me, treating a second edition as a new project is the "way to go." My contact with a later edition was of an eighth edition in which a standard text by a correctly hghly regarded senior scholar was picked up by my client. The author--who has never adapted to PCs--had revised the previous edition by cutting and pasting! He was a skilled author indexer and only approved of me after he checked out my work. Because of his deserved stature, using his previous index as the foundation for the revision made some sense. My job was to enter the previous edition index in Cindex and adapt. No one had marked additons, but having the previous edition was helpfu, as I could verify additions and deletions. I would highlight chapter pages in the fifth edition index, check those for additions and deletions, and make the entries in Cindex. As the book was typeset from manuscript and not disk, I was also enlisted as back-up proofer as I indexed. That client--although happy with my work--now agrees with me that just indexing each edition from scratch is the best and most efficient route. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:55:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: second editions I've been following this thread with some interest since virtually all of my work involves updating existing indexes created by someone else. I occasionally get to index a work completely from scratch, but that is increasingly rare. I think that the bottom line is that you can't generalize either way. Creating new indexes from scratch isn't always practical-- it certainly isn't when you're talking about something the size of an average legal code (from about 15 to over 200 volumes, excluding the index volumes). We also rarely do new indexes for new editions of treatises or textbooks unless either the authors have specifically requested it or the material has changed so dramatically that the previous edition is no longer useful. Working from someone else's work isn't ideal, and you do have to spend time figuring out what they were thinking and their rationale for indexing certain ways, but like most things in our trade it is a skill that can be learned. Having the correct tools is essential-- you HAVE to have the old index sorted in page number order along with the new copy (actually, if you can get the publisher to provide you with marked up copy of the old edition, showing the changes for the new edition, that's even better. Since we're in-house we can usually get this, but I don't know how willing publishers would be willing to provide that to an outsourcer). At the very least, ask for a marked up copy of the Table of Contents. That will alert you to big reorganizations of the material, new chapters, deleted chapters, name changes, etc. It's tedious, but for most publications, it is definitely faster than creating an index from scratch. The result may not by suitable for framing, and you may strongly (and correctly) believe that you could do a much better job if left to your own devices, but the emphasis here is on saving time and money and giving the client what they want. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 19:19:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: REMOVE please >Workshops on the World Wide Web (WWW) for the beginner and slightly >more advanced user will be conducted this fall and winter by Arlington >Courseware. All four are distance-learning workshops that are >conducted entirely by email and the Web. > >NEW>> GROWING MINDSHARE WORKSHOP: OUTREACH FOR YOUR WEBSITE >^^^ >This workshop focuses on enhancing mindshare, that ephemeral quality >that causes users to put your site at the top of their short list >relating to a particular topic or subject. The workshop covers >positioning on search engines and indices, the latest in meta >information, including RDF and Dublin Core, as well as publicity and >promotion techniques. > >The cost is $35. For further information, see the Growing Mindshare >home page: > > http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/grow.html > > >DYNAMIC DUO WORKSHOP: XML & DYNAMIC HTML > >This workshop introduces the beginner to XML (Extensible Markup >Language) and some of its major supporting standards such as XSL >(Extensible Stylesheet Language) and the DOM (Document Object Model). >Covers elementary applications of dynamic HTML (DHTML). > >The cost is $30. For more information, see the Dynamic Duo homepage >(Note: starts in December): > > http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/duo.html > > >TUNE IN THE NET: GLOBAL REACH FOR THE 21ST CENTURY > >This workshop concentrates on Internet interactivity and assisting the >more experienced user in making his or her Web pages into a standout >interactive site. It is a sequel to Make the Link: > >The cost is $40. For additional information, see the Tune In the Net >homepage: > > http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/tune.html > > >MAKE THE LINK WORKSHOP: WORLD WIDE WEB FOR EVERYONE > >This elementary workshop focuses on how to gain maximum advantage from >the Web. It covers Web navigation, searching, and beginning HTML >authoring. > >The cost is $20. For further information, see the Make the Link > > http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/links.html > > >Package prices are available: > > $99 for first three workshops listed > $109 for all four workshops > > >HOW TO SIGN UP > >Sign up for ONE session of each workshop only unless you plan to take >it more than once. To sign up, please send an email message to the >address: > > majordomo@arlington.com > >and in the body of the message: > >include the words: to subscribe to: Dates: >------------------ ---------------- ------ > >subscribe grow Growing Mindshare Nov 2-Dec 10 > >subscribe duo-dec Dec session of Dynamic Duo Dec 1-Jan 8 >subscribe duo-jan Jan session of Dynamic Duo Jan 4-Feb 12 > >subscribe tune-nov Nov session of Tune In the Net Nov 2-Dec 21 >subscribe tune-dec Dec session of Tune In the Net Dec 1-Jan 22 > >subscribe links-nov Nov session of Make the Link Nov 2-Dec 21 >subscribe links-dec Dec session of Make the Link Dec 1-Jan 22 > >This will automatically put you on the mailing list for more >information about each workshop, and you will receive an >acknowledgment with the particulars about signing up, and >unsubscribing, should you decide not to participate. > >If you have any difficulty with this procedure or fail to receive a >response, please send email to the address in the signature line. > >* A plain ASCII text version is also available. > >________________________________________________________________ >THOMAS P. COPLEY tcopley@arlington.com >Growing Mindshare Workshop www.bearfountain.com/arlington/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:07:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laurie Sarney Subject: Re: Geography Question I would put Morocco under North Africa rather than the Middle East. Or is there some sort of convention that I am not aware of? Laurie Sarney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:01:05 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Re: ergonomics I have been indexing for a few months and am already starting to have aching in fingers, wrists, etc. My husband is suggesting that I get a Microsoft "natural" keyboard, the ones that are curved to fit the natural shape of the hands as they would rest on the keyboard. My questions to all indexers is, do any, many, or most of you use a regular keyboard, or have you found the "natural" keyboard to be helpful? Thank you, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:02:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: Organizing exercises for workshop I'm very much in favor of multi-pass marking. You always pick up something on the second (or third) pass that you've missed previously. And it really doesn't take much time if you "train" your eye to see only what you're looking for (bold-faced terms, author references, etc.) each pass goes much more quickly than trying to find everything at once. It's a targeted approach rather than a "shotgun" approach. Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:11:18 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Courses Kim wrote: << I am about to teach Indexing for the first time and am interested in having running copies of Macrex and Cindex for the students to use for at least two sessions. Since I do not use these programs, I am interested in any contacts or suggestions you may have. Do they give out copies to Universities for training? >> Kim, for Macrex, call Gale Rhoades at 650-756-0821. I don't know the policies, but I'm sure something can be worked out. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:13:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: ergonomics The natural keyboard is quite "comfy" and I find fewer typos caused by putting my fingers in the wrong place -- since the keyboard is split, it's easier just to drop your hands into position without having to look. Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:19:45 -0800 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: ergonomics Debra, I have found the Cornell Univ. Ergonomics web site very useful. The following link has a section on computer ergonomics and the ideal typing posture: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/cuslides.html Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:26:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ergonomics << I have been indexing for a few months and am already starting to have aching in fingers, wrists, etc. My husband is suggesting that I get a Microsoft "natural" keyboard, the ones that are curved to fit the natural shape of the hands as they would rest on the keyboard. >> I have one of these and I love it! It takes a little getting used to, because of the split between the two halves, but that doesn't take long. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:23:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: ergonomics I've had a Microsoft natural keyboard for about a year now, and I love it! It takes some getting used to, but I have arthritis in my right wrist (a souvenier from a car accident), and switching keyboards has drastically reduced the pain and numbness in my wrist and arm. Of course, now I can't type on regular keyboards... :-) -- Sharon W. x7255 Rm. 223 Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Lindblom [SMTP:ALINDBLOM@AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 12:01 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: ergonomics > > I have been indexing for a few months and am already starting to have > aching > in fingers, wrists, etc. My husband is suggesting that I get a Microsoft > "natural" keyboard, the ones that are curved to fit the natural shape of > the > hands as they would rest on the keyboard. > > My questions to all indexers is, do any, many, or most of you use a > regular > keyboard, or have you found the "natural" keyboard to be helpful? > > Thank you, > Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:32:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Re: ergonomics This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE0106.9BB20B2E Content-Type: text/plain To Debbie who has been having "aching in fingers, wrists, etc.": I use a Cirque Wave Keyboard which is similar to the "natural" keyboards with the split keys and slightly mounded shape, but it also has a Glidepoint mouse - a touchpad - built in to the keyboard, just below the arrow keys. It has really helped me and didn't take as long as I though to get used to it. You can see a picture of it at Glidepoint's Web site: http://www.glidepoint.com Click to Retail Products and look for the "Smooth Cat". I also, at the suggestion of someone of this list (thank you whoever you are ) got a Hand-Eze glove for my right hand. (My left doesn't give me any problems.) It's a funny looking thing with an elastic wristband and stretchy material for the hand but no fingers. I found mine in a large fabric store. Apparently it is also good for people who do a lot of stitchery. Hope this helps, Marsha Marsha Lofthouse TargetSmart! The Power of Smart Business http://www.targetsmart.com mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE0106.9BB20B2E Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: ergonomics

To Debbie = who has been having "aching in fingers, wrists, etc.":

I use a = Cirque Wave Keyboard which is similar to the "natural" = keyboards with the split keys and slightly mounded shape, but it also = has a Glidepoint mouse - a touchpad - built in to the keyboard, just = below the arrow keys. It has really helped me and didn't take as long = as I though to get used to it. You can see a picture of it at = Glidepoint's Web site:

http://www.glidepoint.com
Click to = Retail Products and look for the "Smooth Cat".

I also, at = the suggestion of someone of this list (thank you whoever you are = <grin>) got a Hand-Eze glove for my right hand. (My left doesn't = give me any problems.) It's a funny looking thing with an elastic = wristband and stretchy material for the hand but no fingers. I found = mine in a large fabric store. Apparently it is also good for people who = do a lot of stitchery.

Hope this = helps,

Marsha

Marsha Lofthouse
TargetSmart! The Power of Smart = Business
http://www.targetsmart.com
mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com=

------ =_NextPart_001_01BE0106.9BB20B2E-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:32:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Subject: natural keyboard I have a curved, "natural" keyboard at home (not from Microsoft), and I think it helps. There is a slight learning curve, however. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:48:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Henry Meyerding Subject: Re: natural keyboard In-Reply-To: <199810261844.KAA06977@goomba.com> from "Joy Thomas" at Oct 26, 98 09:32:42 am The only problem with having keyboards like this in an organization of any size, is that you're flitting between worksations, half having "natural" keyboard and theother not, resulting in severe stress on your hands and a typing speed of about 12 wpm. Learning curveitis. > I have a curved, "natural" keyboard at home (not from Microsoft), and I > think it helps. There is a slight learning curve, however. > > -- > Joy Thomas > Social Sciences Librarian > California State University, Long Beach > 562 985-7817 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:49:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Ooops In-Reply-To: <36349E97.56C7@brown-inc.com> >You posted this to the entire INDEX-L mailing list. I assume you meant >to send it to "Thomas P. Copley" : >> >> >Workshops on the World Wide Web (WWW) for the beginner and slightly Was it Rachel who had the perfect word for responding to this kind of faux pas: AAARGH!! Martha (slinking off to a dark corner) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:14:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: books have endured for a reason My pet peeve is trying to find my way around web sites. (I have not yet even tried learning how to do searches with browsers.) Many times I find a web site is a total maze of crosslinks, so that I wander blindly around for ages, going in circles back to where I have already been. Sometimes I realize that double clicking on a button has sent me whirling off into the universe, only to land at some other web site (equally confusing, of course). *Eventually* I stumble onto the right page, if I persist. I sure wish those buttons labeled "site map" really gave you some sort of map or index. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get to the info I want more quickly? I feel about as ignorant as those poor people Jan describes in the 1st paragraph below. Also, I do use the index tab in help files, but often do not find the information I want under any term I can think up, and finding stuff under the actual name given in the software is often futile, also. I don't think "double posting" or "term selection" is very often considered. Oh well, *if* I do find the stuff in the help file, it practically never tells me what I need to know -- either, (1) what is this and what is it supposed to do for me, or, (2) how do I set this up to work? The help files seems to contain mainly "how to use this, *after* you decide that it will be useful and *after* you have set it up." I guess they bide by the KISS system. #$&%!! Ann Truesdale anntrue@aol.com If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? In a message dated 10/23/98 1:21:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jancw@WRIGHTINFORMATION.COM writes: > > One company I work with did tests that showed that users didn't even know > half the time whether they were using the Find (full-text search) tab in > Windows Help or the Index tab. Their results were better with the index - > more hits that were quality hits. But the users themselves didn't notice > how they were getting their hits. Plus, they would not search by scrolling > down in the list of hits -- if it wasn't in the first five, forget it ever > being found. So in a direct comparison, where both technologies were > available, the users weren't able to discriminate between them. > > So maybe we need a tab on online indexes that says "THIS IS THE INDEX! YOU > WILL FIND SOMEONE HAS THOUGHT ABOUT YOUR TOPIC HERE, AND HAS TRIED TO > ANALYZE AND PRESENT IT TO YOU LOGICALLY. YOU CAN USE THE "FIND" TAB IF YOU > WANT, BUT WE REALLY SUGGEST YOU START WITH THE INDEX. IT'S LESS > FRUSTRATING!!!!!" > > I feel much better now. Of course, if we put that label on online indexes > that consist of nothing but topic titles beginning with the word "using" or > "about," we are hosed. > > Jan Wright > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:14:58 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: ergonomics In a message dated 10/26/98 12:33:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, marsha_lofthouse@TARGETSMART.COM writes: (snip) > > I also, at the suggestion of someone of this list (thank you whoever you are > ) got a Hand-Eze glove for my right hand. (My left doesn't give me any > problems.) It's a funny looking thing with an elastic wristband and stretchy > material for the hand but no fingers. I found mine in a large fabric store. > Apparently it is also good for people who do a lot of stitchery. > These gloves can be hard to find, and the one I got from a needlework cataloge was more expensive that buying direct. Call 800-432-4352 There is a size "chart" on the box which you can easily reproduce: Draw a vertical line intersecting a horizontal line at the left end. (You will have a giant "T" which has been rotated 90 degrees to the left.) Measure along the horizontal line and make marks at 2-5/8", 3-1/8", 3-5/8" and 4-1/4". This will give you 1/2" ranges for sizes S, M and L. To measure, place your *knuckles* along the horizontal line with the vertical line lined up with one side of your hand. Order according to what range the other side of your hand reaches. (Is that clear as mud?) If you fall right on the dividing line, I would tend to order the smaller size. I have used these in the winter to keep my hands warm while I type or do paperwork, as well as to help the aches I sometimes feel in damp weather. If you just want to use them for warmth, you might want to go up in size? Or the other option is to find glove liners (in an outdoor clothing cataloge or store). They are cheaper but may "unravel" if the fingertips are cut off. I have a pair but have not tried them yet -- not chilly in SC yet. :-) Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:16:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: natural keyboard In-Reply-To: <199810261754.MAA08125@camel23.mindspring.com> I've found the major thing that leads to pain is using the mouse extensively, and positioning the keyboard wrong. Until you get a natural one (which I haven't done) make sure that if you have an extended keyboard with number pad, that you do not center it in front of you. Center the letter keys section in front of you, which means the number keypad sticks out to one side. Also, learn every quick key command to reduce your use of the mouse, and have a wrist rest for your mouse hand as well, so that you are using the mouse with a nice angle, not with your arm resting on the desk. I found a combo mouse pad with a wrist rest built into it. It makes a big difference. Those two things alone have kept my hands and wrists quite happy at the keyboard. Jan Wright At 10:48 AM 10/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >The only problem with having keyboards like this in an organization of any >size, is that you're flitting between worksations, half having "natural" >keyboard and theother not, resulting in severe stress on your hands and a >typing speed of about 12 wpm. Learning curveitis. > > >> I have a curved, "natural" keyboard at home (not from Microsoft), and I >> think it helps. There is a slight learning curve, however. >> >> -- >> Joy Thomas >> Social Sciences Librarian >> California State University, Long Beach >> 562 985-7817 >> > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Confused by the return e-mail address? Doesn't matter whether you use Jancw@wrightinformation.com OR Jancw@mindspring.com - they will wind up in the same place, as will the URLs below: http://www.wrightinformation.com OR http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Re: second editions Cynthia Bertelson wrote: "However, I do use extensive abbreviation files for medical materials. I keep a print out of the appropriate abbreviations file next to my screen for easy remembering." I find the CINDEX abbreviation files very useful. I don't bother to print= them out, though, but keep the Abbreviations window open onscreen next to= the index window. It's great using CINDEX's facility to be able to highlight a term and save it straight to the Abbreviations window. Sue ------------------------------------------------------------- Sue Lightfoot =AD Indexing, Proofreading Tremorva, Talland Hill, Polperro, Cornwall PL13 2RZ, England Tel/Fax: 01503 273006 Email: SLightfoot@compuserve.com ------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:47:29 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nickel, Joyce" Subject: Re: Geography Question The Europe/Asia border is the Ural Mountains, so consult a current map to see how Russia fits. Good luck with your index. Joyce > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Graf [SMTP:SageWords1@AOL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 7:45 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Geography Question > > I am trying to create some fairly simple (or so I thought!) > cross-references > for "Armenia" and "Russia", among others. I have consulted several > standard > geographic references, and have received conflicting information. > > Are Armenia and Russia currently considered part of Asia or Europe or both > (or > neither?!) Is Armenia currently considered a part of the Middle East? > > Examples: > > Europe > Armenia > Austria > France > Greece > Italy > Russia > > ("Armenia" and "Russia" look "funny" to me in this list.) > > Asia > Armenia > Cambodia > Japan > Mongolia > Russia > > ("Armenia" and "Russia" look funny to me also in this list.) > > Middle East > Armenia > Egypt > Israel > Morocco > > ("Armenia" looks really funny to me in this list--just doesn't have the > right > "feel.") > > Perhaps "Armenia" and "Russia" should stand on their own? > > Two other questions: 1) Is it correct to say that "Mexico" is a part of > North > America? 2) Should "Mediterranean" and "Caribbean" have "the" included in > their references; should "the" be initial capped?: > > Caribbean, the > Barbados > Cuba > > Mediterranean, the > Greece > Italy > > > Thank you, in advance. > > DEBBIE GRAF ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:10:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker Subject: Suggestions for getting around the web Ann Truesdale said: "My pet peeve is trying to find my way around web sites. (I have not yet even tried learning how to do searches with browsers.)" Eek! I can't imagine getting around the web without using search engines. My favorite is Metacrawler (http://www.metacrawler.com). It searches eight other search engines--including such biggies as AltaVista, InfoSeek, Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos--and gives you the cumulative results. And, for me, the bonus is the little "Minicrawler" box, which minimizes when you're not using it, and eliminates the need to scroll up or down to get to the line where you want to do another search. (Trust me, as a reference product editor who sometimes needs to check multiple sites for info, this is a godsend.) [BTW, I'm in no way connected to Metacrawler ... just a satisfied customer.] Also, I'm a bookmark-aholic. Find something you like? Add it to your bookmarks (except, like a good index, make sure you have proper headings, so that everything isn't filed under one giant, general heading). So......Ann. Simply using a search engine and bookmarks should make life on the Internet much smoother than it is now. Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:53:58 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ergonomics < I also, at the suggestion of someone of this list (thank you whoever you are ) got a Hand-Eze glove for my right hand. >> I wear (at the recommendation of my doctor) wrist braces while typing. They sound a lot like the Hand-Eze: they're elastic and have metal inserts that keep me from bending my wrists. They feel wonderful. When I started having problems I slept in them for about a month to retrain myself to keep my wrists straight while asleep. I got them at a medical equipment store--quite easy to find. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:54:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: natural keyboard In-Reply-To: <199810261800.KAA12548@decibel.electriciti.com> I had a Microsoft keyboard and found the learning curve to be a couple of hours. I now have a Kinesis keyboard, which also has programmable foot pedals. The learning curve was nearly a week. I need to take my keyboard with me when I work on another PC. I got the keyboard just before I smashed my right elbow in a clumsy fall. I recommend a split keyboard and believe the steeper learning curve was a small price to pay for the increased productivity and usability of the Kinesis keyboard. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:34:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: ergonomics Debbie: I use the ergonomic keyboard with a touchpad included. I recommend the ergonomic keyboard. I also recommend the touchpad which clears up some desk space and relieves the index finger from clicking. Remember, that when typing the arms must be parallel to the ground, the monitor at eye level, take frequent breaks, etc. rob fugleman@mindspring.com Debra Lindblom wrote: > I have been indexing for a few months and am already starting to have aching > in fingers, wrists, etc. My husband is suggesting that I get a Microsoft > "natural" keyboard, the ones that are curved to fit the natural shape of the > hands as they would rest on the keyboard. > > My questions to all indexers is, do any, many, or most of you use a regular > keyboard, or have you found the "natural" keyboard to be helpful? > > Thank you, > Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 20:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? A later version of what, Norton? I didn't know there WAS a later version. Puzzled, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:20:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: ergonomics Just thought I'd put in my two cents... I have a natural/curved keyboard, and I love it. The wrist position is far more comfortable, and it's easier on my shoulders. The only trouble I had in adjusting to it is that the 6 is in the "wrong" position for touch-typing as I learned it; I usually type 6 with my right pointer finger, and on the Microsoft keyboard, the 6 is on the left. A minor irritation I can live with; in a few more months it will probably be second nature to use the left hand. The only other annoyance is that I frequently use a laptop, and I find myself wishing the laptop had a curved, split keyboard as well! Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services 8112 Harrison Dr. King George, VA 22485 (540) 775-4072 jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Virus Detection Website? Once upon a time someone on this list mentioned a place to go to find out about computer viruses. I have been sent another one of those pesky warnings about a virus attached to a Budweiser frogs screensaver, and I'm pretty sure there is no such virus. Anyone remember the site? I'd like to pass along the info to the other lucky ones on the warning list. I appreciate it! -- Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:48:44 -0800 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: Virus Detection Website? Here's the one that I use: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html Kari Miller wrote: > > Once upon a time someone on this list mentioned a place to go to find > out about computer viruses. I have been sent another one of those pesky > warnings about a virus attached to a Budweiser frogs screensaver, and > I'm pretty sure there is no such virus. Anyone remember the site? I'd > like to pass along the info to the other lucky ones on the warning > list. I appreciate it! > > -- > Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:21:00 +0000 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Re: natural keyboard In-Reply-To: <199810261754.RAA13201@mail-relay.compulink.co.uk> I have two computers that I use regularly and two others I use for a short time most days. Three of the computers have ordinary keyboards and one has a "natural" keyboard. I have no problems at all in flitting between the two kinds of keyboard - it's a bit like getting used to driving an automatic car and a manual ("stick-shift") one. I also have four different kinds of mouse-alikes - a normal mouse, a touchpad, a trackball and a pencil-type mouse (can't remember what this is called, but I'll find out if anyone is interested). Since each kind of mouse uses a different set of muscles in my hand I feel sure that moving from one to another during the day is beneficial. I also avoid "mouseing" by using keyboard shortcuts as much as possible - and there are far more of these than most people (I think) are aware of. Of course another way to ease one's hand muscles is to combine all of the above with a speech recognition package. It is possible to use such a package in conjunction with keyboarding and using the mouse, so it would be possible, for instance, to use the speech recognition package for function keys or numbers (the keys which aren't normally learned in a touch-typing course) and reserve fingers for the "normal" keyboard keys. Variety is the spice of life! Drusilla Calvert D.Calvert@macrex.cix.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rance, Susan, Ms, ODC/SA" Subject: Re: Geography Question Laurie, Actually, Morocco is part of the Mahgreb which encompasses Algeria, Libya, and Tunisia also. Sometimes Egypt and Mauritania are also included. Susan Rance > -----Original Message----- > From: Laurie Sarney [SMTP:LaSarney@AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 6:07 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Geography Question > > I would put Morocco under North Africa rather than the Middle East. Or is > there some sort of convention that I am not aware of? > > Laurie Sarney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:36:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: Indexing Courses You can download a demo version of both the Windows and the Macintosh version of CINDEX from the vendor's web page at http://www.indexres.com/ that you can copy and distribute at will. They differ from the full version only in that they only allow you to enter 100 records and the spellchecker is disabled. I have used the Windows demonstration version for teaching classes (I even got the techie to load it on the classroom network, but I've no idea what magic he wove to achieve this). The students didn't get anywhere near 100 records -- you'll find they spend more time experimenting with the features than they do entering records. I suggest you also consider downloading the demonstration version of SKYIndex Professional (a Windows program) for the same purpose, from www.sky-software.com. You can enter about 300 records in this version. (The techie was able to set this up for me on the network too, with each student computer having its own shortcut to start it.) I can only speak for myself, but I would hesitate to use demonstration time on a program that is only available in a DOS version, when there are two Windows programs at least arguably as powerful. Perhaps you could contact the vendors and tell them your plans. They are extremely helpful. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 >Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:02:49 -0600 >From: Kim Schroeder >Subject: Indexing Courses > >I am about to teach Indexing for the first time and am interested in having >running copies of Macrex and Cindex for the students to use for at least >two sessions. > >Since I do not use these programs, I am interested in any contacts or >suggestions you may have. Do they give out copies to Universities for >training? > >Thanks. > >Kim Schroeder >Archive Impact >www.archiveimpact.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:05:10 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 25 Oct 1998 to 26 Oct 1998 In-Reply-To: <06052032865491@domain1.bigpond.com> Ann Truesdale wrote My pet peeve is trying to find my way around web sites. (I have not yet even tried learning how to do searches with browsers.) Many times I find a web site is a total maze of crosslinks, so that I wander blindly around for ages, going in circles back to where I have already been. Sometimes I realize that double clicking on a button has sent me whirling off into the universe, only to land at some other web site (equally confusing, of course). *Eventually* I stumble onto the right page, if I persist. I sure wish those buttons labeled "site map" really gave you some sort of map or index. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get to the info I want more quickly? I feel about as ignorant as those poor people Jan describes in the 1st paragraph below. I've passed this on to the Web Indexing mailing list for comment. Of course, one long-term solution is to send off feedback to the Webmaster setting out the advantages of Web Indexing ;-). Jonathan Jermey Moderator Web indexing mailing list (http://WINDMAIL.listbot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:02:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Spencer Subject: Re: Getting Around Web/Web Sites In a message dated 10/27/98 3:08:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, Diagonal@BIGPOND.COM writes: << Ann Truesdale wrote>> Ann, here's my take on your situation. <> About crosslinks (x-links) in web sites: A certain amount of x-linkage is good. They are like roads. If you follow a certain road, without a x-link you will wind up at a "dead end." Getting just the right amount of x-links and having them make sense to the web site user is mostly web site DESIGN. Now you understand POOR web site design. << Sometimes I realize that double clicking on a button has sent me whirling off into the universe, only to land at some other web site (equally confusing, of course). >> Yep. One thing that causes this is when "ads" are clicked on. Ads almost look like part of the web page, and since they are ads, of course they get your attention to click on them--thinking they are part of the web page. SURPRISE! They aren't. That's when people start winding up at different web sites. It takes a keen eye to identify some of the ads since they are geared for the web site they appear on. Your best bet, when you've been mysteriously transported to another universe, is to use the "BACK" button to get back to where you were instead of trudging onward. And send a complaint to the webmaster. However, ads generate money (or some other compensation) for the webmaster so your complaint may go unnoticed. << I sure wish those buttons labeled "site map" really gave you some sort of map or index. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get to the info I want more quickly? >> Never had problems with site maps, as long as I didn't click on ads. Other than that, when you finally find what you want--do as Larry Baker suggested--BOOKMARK. I'm in the process of tutoring a senior (about the Internet and such) who has never used a computer before. She experiences many of the same problems. For her, the poorly designed graphics at the web sites cause problems. As I watch her, she gets around VERY GOOD if the site has good design. When she starts getting lost, she think it's her own fault. But in reality, the web site design has thoroughly confused her. Good design equals ease of use. Bad design equals total frustration. With the Internet, it's not just professionally trained graphic artists who are designing web sites. It's novices with no graphic sense at all. What these novices have are software programs. Big difference. An easily accessible index WOULD help ease the problem of bad design. But often, the word "Index" is in an unimportant font, stuck somewhere out of site (oops! sight). Just my own opinion. Good luck! Dawn Spencer CHOICE INDEXING indexlady@aol.com http://members.aol.com/indexlady/ --------------- Coordinator of the Tennessee Regional Group of the American Society of Indexers tennwords@aol.com http://members.aol.com/tennwords/home.html --------------- author of the Indexing topic at Suite 101 http://www.suite101.com/topics/page.cfm/1019 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Guenther Subject: Re: Getting Around Web/Web Sites In-Reply-To: <199810271204.HAA23134@carriage.chesco.com> Dawn wrote: >An easily accessible index WOULD help ease the problem of bad design. But >often, the word "Index" is in an unimportant font, stuck somewhere out of site >(oops! sight). Another problem I'm aware of after attending a workshop on Web page development is the way in which Web page creators have used the word "index" to mean something totally different from what we as indexers do. At the workshop, the demonstrator repeatedly referred to her "index page" and only towards the end did I realize that she was meaning her home page. If you check many (most?) ISPs that offer Web sites the initial page in many cases has the name "index.html" Another area where we need to educate . Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:30:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Guenther Subject: CHAT: Children & indexes In-Reply-To: <199810271204.HAA23134@carriage.chesco.com> Just had to share events of yesterday with others who would understand -- After a trip to the library, my 7-year-old was exploring a book she had borrowed about dogs. (Currently sharing research with mom on all the "wonderful benefits" if we were to get a dog :-) ) She was trying to find a picture of the type of dog she likes but didn't know the breed. When she described it, I suggested a terrier. No sooner did I give her the term than she returned to the text & said "Terrier, let me see the index & find the "Ts" Made this mother's heart feel good ! Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Viruses I have found this to be a useful site. http://www.kumite.com/myths/home.htm BRIAN M. PECK Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly 300 N. Salisbury Street Raleigh, NC 27603-5925 Phone: 919-733-9390 Fax: 919-715-5460 email: brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barczak, Jessie" Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? There is an NAV 5.0 ... check it out at the Symantec home page http://www.symantec.com/servsupp.html M. Jessie Barczak Research Analyst jbarczak@washington.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott [SMTP:75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM] > Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 8:59 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? > > A later version of what, Norton? I didn't know there WAS a later version. > > Puzzled, > Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:50:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? In-Reply-To: <199810271344.HAA13530@deimos.flash.net> I have followed the Norton thread with some interest because I've used their products, with mixed results. I understand from a review of utilities software that Norton Utilities 3.0 (which is the latest one, after a check of the Symantec site yesterday) is a good program with lots of features....and one very big bug. The reviewer (PC Computing, I think) recommended the product, but also recommended downloading and installing the bug fix immediately to avoid problems. I think that any program that gets as far into your operating system as Norton is going to have the possibility of causing trouble, particularly if your operating system is altered by other programs or by the hardware manufacturer. In preparation for installing Norton 3.0, which I have not obtained yet, I took 2.0 off my machine. I haven't had any problems, but I didn't have any I could attribute to the program anyway. I miss the information on my system's status, though. The Win95 information is not nearly as comprehensive, and is harder to find. Joanne AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "That love is all we know is all we know of love" Emily Dickinson -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu] On Behalf Of Barczak, Jessie Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 7:41 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? There is an NAV 5.0 ... check it out at the Symantec home page http://www.symantec.com/servsupp.html M. Jessie Barczak Research Analyst jbarczak@washington.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott [SMTP:75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM] > Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 8:59 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? > > A later version of what, Norton? I didn't know there WAS a later version. > > Puzzled, > Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? I think this thread may be confusing everybody because there are 2 different products being discussed here. One is Norton AntiVirus, which is designed to protect your hard drive and removable disks from infection by viruses. Version 5.0 seems to be the latest for both Mac and PC. A separate product, Norton Utilites, is used to repair crashed or damaged hard drives/disks when something goes wrong. This has nothing to do with viruses, though I suppose a virus infection could cause disk damage requiring repair by Norton Utilities. According to the Symantec website, there's a V 4.0 for Mac, a V 3.0 for Windows 95/98, and a V 8.0 for Windows and DOS. I use a Mac so I don't know about the PC versions or the differences between them. The original post, as noted in the subject line, concerned problems with Norton Utilites, not AntiVirus. They are sold separately and perform completely different functions. Both are worth discussing but not interchangeably. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barczak, Jessie" Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? OK, many thanks for clearing that up! I am very sorry if I confused anyone (looks as though I was quite confused myself) M. Jessie Barczak Research Analyst Powell Tate Washington jbarczak@washington.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne Day [SMTP:ADay@PROFESSIONALJEWELER.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:09 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: QUERY: Norton Utilities Problems? > > I think this thread may be confusing everybody because there are 2 > different > products being discussed here. > > One is Norton AntiVirus, which is designed to protect your hard drive and > removable disks from infection by viruses. Version 5.0 seems to be the > latest for both Mac and PC. > > A separate product, Norton Utilites, is used to repair crashed or damaged > hard drives/disks when something goes wrong. This has nothing to do with > viruses, though I suppose a virus infection could cause disk damage > requiring repair by Norton Utilities. According to the Symantec website, > there's a V 4.0 for Mac, a V 3.0 for Windows 95/98, and a V 8.0 for > Windows > and DOS. I use a Mac so I don't know about the PC versions or the > differences between them. > > The original post, as noted in the subject line, concerned problems with > Norton Utilites, not AntiVirus. They are sold separately and perform > completely different functions. Both are worth discussing but not > interchangeably. > > Anne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:51:11 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Marketing for Web Sites Indexing Hi everyone, I would like some advice and tips for marketing my services for indexing Web sites. So far I have done just 1 Web site indexing project (I got it through a personal friend). Right now I am doing the 2nd indexing project for a Web site of a local Engineering company. My husband is the VP of this Engineering company. So he got me this project. Both of these projects have come through personal contacts. My questions are.... 1...Should I create a different kind of resume/marketing package for getting web indexing projects? 2...Should I contact the Webmaster for marketing my services or should I contact the company directly for sending my resume? 3...For book indexing I send my marketing package to editors/managing/production editors. For web indexing marketing purposes, who is the right person to get the marketing package? Any helpful tips/suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:33:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Thank you for keyboard info Thank you, everyone, for sharing your experiences with "natural" keyboards and other ergonomic solutions. It looks likes a "natural" keyboard will be my next investment in indexing. Debbie Lindblom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:03:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Geography Question << I would put Morocco under North Africa rather than the Middle East. Or is there some sort of convention that I am not aware of? >> The confusion probably comes from the fact that Morocco (in North Africa) is an Arab country--which is not the same thing as the Middle East. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:04:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Marketing for Web Sites Indexing The best way to market yourself would be to refer potential clients to your existing projects' web addresses so they can see your "portfolio." As for who to contact... you should call the company and talk to the person who manages the website. This may not be the webmaster, per se, but the person who is reponsible for the content and development of the site. For example, in the publishing company I work for, the editorial management is certainly more concerned with the usability of our website than are the webmasters (who are offsite and just handle technical stuff). In any case, make sure you send your promo to the attention of someone BY NAME, not just a position title. Anne > ---------- > From: Manjit Sahai > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:51 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Marketing for Web Sites Indexing > > Hi everyone, > > I would like some advice and tips for marketing my services for indexing > Web sites. > > So far I have done just 1 Web site indexing project (I got it through a > personal friend). Right now I am doing the 2nd indexing project for a > Web site of a local Engineering company. My husband is the VP of this > Engineering company. So he got me this project. Both of these projects > have come through personal contacts. > > My questions are.... > > 1...Should I create a different kind of resume/marketing package for > getting web indexing projects? > > 2...Should I contact the Webmaster for marketing my services or should I > contact the company directly for sending my resume? > > 3...For book indexing I send my marketing package to > editors/managing/production editors. For web indexing marketing > purposes, who is the right person to get the marketing package? > > Any helpful tips/suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance. > > Manjit K. Sahai > RAM Indexing Services > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:08:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Software demos Michael Wyatt wrote: << I can only speak for myself, but I would hesitate to use demonstration time on a program that is only available in a DOS version, when there are two Windows programs at least arguably as powerful. >> I do need to speak to this. Many of us feel no need to go to a Windows-based program, since we have a program that works just as fast and well. As a Macrex user, I index extremely fast using my keyboard. In the Windows programs I use, I learn as many keyboard equivalents as possible and try to stay away from the mouse. Please read Nancy Mulvany's comments on this subject at the Macrex website (http://www.macrex.cix.co.uk/). Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:41:57 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Software demos Another comment from a Macrex user regarding: << I can only speak for myself, but I would hesitate to use demonstration time on a program that is only available in a DOS version, when there are two Windows programs at least arguably as powerful. >> I echo Do Mi's comments. I am perfectly happy with the functionality ... and speed ... of my [non-Windows] Macrex program. It does all I need it to without the distraction of "mousing". Now, one of the interesting comments I heard from Cindex users regarding the learning curve when the Windows version became available was that they now had to learn to do things with the mouse that they were perfectly happy doing in other ways, and it was annoying to have to take the hands off the keyboard and put them back over and over again. Some of those folks went to great lengths to find non-mouse ways (using control keys, etc) of doing the same things. Admittedly, that was part of learning, but I think it has relevance here. Now ... without wanting to start a Cindex/Macrex war here, let me say that both programs are powerful and will fill the bill for working indexers. They work differently -- that's all. They are both excellent. The fact that Macrex is a non-Windows program does not detract in the least from its value to indexers. As a busy working indexer it fills my needs. [And yes, I have tried the other programs.] The concern I have is how I will be able to continue using Macrex if and when computers (in the near future) no longer support DOS, or have a way of running DOS-based programs. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:54:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: Marketing for Web Sites Indexing -----Original Message----- From: Manjit Sahai To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:46 AM Subject: Marketing for Web Sites Indexing >Hi everyone, > >I would like some advice and tips for marketing my services for indexing >Web sites. > >So far I have done just 1 Web site indexing project (I got it through a >personal friend). Right now I am doing the 2nd indexing project for a >Web site of a local Engineering company. My husband is the VP of this >Engineering company. So he got me this project. Both of these projects >have come through personal contacts. > >My questions are.... > >1...Should I create a different kind of resume/marketing package for >getting web indexing projects? > >2...Should I contact the Webmaster for marketing my services or should I >contact the company directly for sending my resume? > >3...For book indexing I send my marketing package to >editors/managing/production editors. For web indexing marketing >purposes, who is the right person to get the marketing package? > >Any helpful tips/suggestions would be appreciated. > >Thanks in advance. > >Manjit K. Sahai >RAM Indexing Services > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Another idea is to write articles for Web-related mags. I'm doing this presently. You get lots of exposure to the individuals whom you really need to reach (webmasters and developers). Also many bk publishers are doing something w/ online material now. Intranet development mags are another good target area. Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management brocindx@catskill.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:07:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Guenther Subject: Re: Indexing Software demos In-Reply-To: <199810271744.MAA10553@carriage.chesco.com> At 12:41 PM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >Another comment from a Macrex user regarding:=A0=A0 << I can only speak for >myself, but I would hesitate to use demonstration time=A0 on a program that= is >only available in a DOS version, when there are two Windows programs at= least >arguably as powerful. >> > >I echo Do Mi's comments.=A0 I am perfectly happy with the functionality ...= and >speed ... of my [non-Windows] Macrex program.=A0 It does all I need it to >without the distraction of "mousing". I haven't checked my files to see how long I used Macrex but I would= consider myself a proficient user when I made the switch a year ago to SKY Index. I also consider myself a fast typist but the efficiency of SKY was a dramatic increase in my data entry. I'd like to believe that by reducing data entry (through features like Autocomplete & macros) I can spend more time on= editing & improve the product I offer. =20 I, like so many on this list, dislike using the mouse & SKY, while providing mouse features, has many shortcut keys. I rarely find it necessary to use= the mouse.=20 My understanding of the original note was simply to affirm the need to acquaint new indexers with more of their options & not just the usual standards. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:43:19 -0500 Reply-To: HMCMURRA@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather Subject: Re: ergonomics Debra Lindblom wrote: > > I have been indexing for a few months and am already starting to have aching > in fingers, wrists, etc. My husband is suggesting that I get a Microsoft > "natural" keyboard, the ones that are curved to fit the natural shape of the > hands as they would rest on the keyboard. > > My questions to all indexers is, do any, many, or most of you use a regular > keyboard, or have you found the "natural" keyboard to be helpful? > > Thank you, > Debbie Debbie, If your wrists hurt then don't type -- use dragon naturally speaking or another voice package if possible. I got injured in 1991 and went through it all - splints, ergonomic keyboards etc. I did a year off with occupational therapy, and took over twenty drugs (four for inflammation). Don't type, and find a good physiatrist (muscle and bone doctor) or chiropractor. god bless Heather McMurray ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:44:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Software demos And one more thing (forgot to add this to my other post): As an indexing teacher, I think it's extremely important for teachers to give students information about all of the professional indexing programs, whatever our personal preferences may be. When I'm teaching a general indexing workshop (as opposed to a software-specific program like the introduction to Macrex that I also lead) I share some of my indexing strategies that use Macrex; I always make clear that Cindex and Sky Index can do similar things. These programs are all powerful and useful; indexers need to try them and choose the one that best fits their personal style. In my opinion it would be unethical to use my power as a teacher, especially of beginners in the field, to limit their access to one or more of the programs. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:18:36 -0800 Reply-To: Bonny.McLaughlin@cgu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny McLaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Virus Detection Website? Here's some info on the Budweiser frogs from the Tourbus archives: STORY: The Bud Frogs screen saver contains a virus. TRUTH: Not true, but it could be. Because the Bud Frogs screen saver is an executable file, it *COULD* contain a virus or a Trojan horse, although none have been found. Solution? Virus check every executable file you download from the Net. For more information, see http://www.av.ibm.com/BreakingNews/HypeAlert/BudFrogs/ Kari Miller wrote: > Once upon a time someone on this list mentioned a place to go to find > out about computer viruses. I have been sent another one of those pesky > warnings about a virus attached to a Budweiser frogs screensaver, and > I'm pretty sure there is no such virus. Anyone remember the site? I'd > like to pass along the info to the other lucky ones on the warning > list. I appreciate it! > > -- > Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:36:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michelle Bond Subject: Seeking Information I am seeking advise and information on indexing software. I came across your listserve on the Internet, from the American Society of Indexers, and am asking your indulgence in answereing some questions. My organization and library were recently established. We are a small office and have started publishing documents, this activity will increase over time. We will need to have a good software for indexing. I have come across CINDEX, Macrex and SKY Index for Windows. They seem pretty comprehensive. I know also that Microsoft word can index, but with limitations. Can someone advise on best suited package for a small office with limited work load, and budget. I have never used any of these programs, and would want to know if it would be advisable to recommend purchasing one of these packages for long term usage. Also, I am a solo librarian, and will have to take on most of the task of indexing. Looking forward to your response. Regards Michelle Bond Michelle Bond Librarian International Seabed Authority 14-20 Port Royal Street Kingston JAMAICA Tel: (876) 92-29105 Fax: (876) 92-20195 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:36:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark and Kay Popp Subject: Re: Virus Detection Website? Here's another virus website. www.kumite.com/myths/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:31:32 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: second editions In-Reply-To: <199810251516.HAA21588@nccn.net> At 07:09 AM 10/25/98 -0800, Sonsie wrote: > >At 09:54 AM 10/25/1998 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: > >>Absolutely. I have successfully done a second edition when I also did the >>first edition. I sort the first edition Cindex file in page order and >>match entries page by page. It's tedious and takes almost as much time as >>doing it from scratch, but it's doable. > >I've been "redoing" a multivolume tax preparation handbook for a number of >years, and do essentially what Dick describes. Though unlike him, I'm sure I >save at least 1/3 of the time it would take to do the index from scratch, >because I'm not typing in any of the heads or subheads (unless there are new >ones). > >In addition, I feel it has helped me refine the index quite a bit. Every >year, I tweak it a little, and I'm quite pleased with the result. I have used the same process, working on a .pno (page number order) file in my trusty old wordprocessor (WordPerfect 5.1) instead of my indexing program (Macrex) so as not to have to open and close the entries every time I add or change page numbers. On my last job I wrote a macro that improves the process by separating all the page number groups from each other, thereby significantly reducing the mind glaze factor. I actually wrote this macro for a different purpose -- to facilitate checking the page numbers in an original index of my own -- but it will work as well for creating second editions by modifying .pno files. (I would be glad to share this macro with anybody else who still uses WP51, and I'd be glad too if any grateful user felt like making a contribution back to me in return.) Having said this, I want to repeat what I said in a post many moons ago that I usually prefer to update page numbers not in pno mode in WordPerfect 5.1 but in group mode in Macrex, grouping on page numbers one after another and thereby being able to see, compare, and check all the page numbers entered after all listed headings, and to have access to the index in alphabetical order at a keystroke. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:48:27 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Indexing Software demos I just thought I would mention that a recent demo presented by SoCal chapter of ASI, the Macrex rep stated that a windows version of her program was almost ready to be introduced. She said, however, she was not authorized to demo it or even talk about it at that time (October 3). Jean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:02:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Seeking Information Michelle, As a former librarian and current indexer, I am puzzled by your question about appropriate indexing software. Cindex, Macrex, and SKY are not meant to be used in cataloging or assigning subject heading to holdings, but to create back of the book or journal indexes. Perhaps I've misinterpreted your note. As a solo librarian in a nonprofit organization that also sometimes published books, I had the opportunity to develop several indexing skills for various kinds of indexes. Is this your situation now? Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:04:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: CHAT: Children & indexes Nancy's story reminded me of another child who is learning well--in kindergarten! My friend's son Adam came home thrilled with African peanut soup, which a visitor to the classroom had made for all the children. "Mom, it looked gross, but it tasted awesome!" "And, Mom, we can make that soup. The recipe is in a book. She wrote the book's title on the board, and I copied it all down. The book is in the library, and we can get it!" Mom took Adam to the library almost immediately, and they found the book together. "Now, Mom, all we need to do is look in the index for 'Soup.' It's in the back. Then we can read all the kinds of soup in the book and we can find the right one." They followed his directions immediately, located the soup recipe, and took the book triumphantly home. Awesome. Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:16:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Grabke Subject: Re: CHAT: Children & indexes From the perspective of a Children's Librarian/Indexer, it seems that kids really do know how to use book indexes (for the few times that they go to books instead of the Internet) even if they don't know how to use the OPAC, Dewey Decimal, or those dusty periodical indexes. Cynthia Grabke ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:01:37 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Legal indexing position at AustLII Here is information about an interesting job for an indexer of legal material on the Internet, based in Sydney, Australia. AustLII (Australasian Legal Information Institute) is responsible for large international legal indexes and subject gateways, and was given an award in the Australian Society of Indexers' Web Indexing Prize in 1997, for its World Law Index (including Project DIAL). If you are interested, please get in touch with Graham Greenleaf (addresses below). Alan Walker >>From graham@austlii.edu.au Wed Oct 28 15:27:00 1998 >X-Sender: graham@138.25.65.7 >Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:27:57 +1000 >To: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au >From: graham@austlii.edu.au (Graham Greenleaf) >Subject: Legal indexing position at AustLII > >Dear Alan, > >As I mentioned when we spoke today, I would like to draw to the attention >of any indexers the position of 'Legal indexing project officer' which has >been advertised at AustLII. The full details are on the AustLII site at >http://www.austlii.edu.au/austlii/employment/19981001.html but I have also >included below the brief position description that is found there. > >It is a very challenging position and the person who takes it will play a >key role in AustLII's future development, and be at the cutting edge in >developments in internet indexing. > >The closing date for expressions of interest is this Friday 30th, but it >will take us a few days to organise interviews, so there is still time for >anyone who is interested to contact us. > >Regards, > >Graham Greenleaf > > >(2) Legal indexing project officer > >This position is part of the team responsible for AustLII's secondary legal >materials (including subject-specific databases, organisational home pages, >and legal indexes). The major responsibility of the position is the >creation of indexes to (or catalogues of) legal materials already available >on the internet, within AustLII's Australian and World indexes to law on >the >internet, and associated indexing work which creates the World Law Search >facility by use of a targeted web spider. Particular indexing/web spider >projects include: > > * Project DIAL, a project funded by the Asian Development Bank >(Project details), with a focus on world-wide legal materials related to >legislation. > * Support for internet index aspects of other AustLII projects such >as the Reconciliation and Social Justice Library on indigenous law >materials (Project details), the Australian Treaties Library, and the >Industrial & Labour Law Project. > >AustLII intends to create the most extensive world-wide and Australia-wide >access points to legal information on the internet, and this position will >play a key role in that development. > >Qualifications: Tertiary qualifications in Law or Librarianship (with Law >Librarianship specialisation) are essential, but applicants who are near to >completion of qualifications will be considered. Applicants require a sound >knowledge of, and experience in, indexing or cataloguing >legal materials, particularly internet indexing of legal materials. >Knowledge and use use of HTML and internet protocols and experience in >developing internet resources, are desirable. A degree in computer science >is not required for this position. > >-- >*************************************************************** >Graham Greenleaf Tel: +61 2 93852233 (UNSW) >Professor of Law, Faculty of Law +61 2 95695310 (Home) >University of New South Wales Fax: +61 2 93851175 (UNSW) >Sydney 2052 Australia +61 2 95698384 (Home) >E-mail: mailto:g.greenleaf@unsw.edu.au or graham@austlii.edu.au >Home page - http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~graham/ >Co-Director, Australasian Legal Information Institute (AustLII) >General Editor, Privacy Law & Policy Reporter >*************************************************************** > > > > -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:22:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marite Tweeddale Subject: Website indexing Exactly what is this. ie how is it done? As I am unclear about what it is I'm unlikely to be doing it in the near future, but would like some elucidation. Thanks Marite ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 04:05:48 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Software demos In a message dated 98-10-27 12:50:20 EST, you write: << I echo Do Mi's comments. I am perfectly happy with the functionality ... and speed ... of my [non-Windows] Macrex program. It does all I need it to without the distraction of "mousing". Now, one of the interesting comments I heard from Cindex users regarding the learning curve when the Windows version became available was that they now had to learn to do things with the mouse that they were perfectly happy doing in other ways >> Another echo. I am perfectly happy with Cindex for DOS. If the Windows version requires a mouse, I doubt I will "convert" until the last DOS-compatable computer dies of old age. Lack of a rodent residency requirement does not reduce usability in any way. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:55:02 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Warren Subject: Keyboarding problems Apart from indexing, most of my work is onscreen editing and so I am using keyboard and mouse throughout my working day. My problem was with my wrist rather than my fingers -- the inside of my wrist where it rested on the desk and mousemat became inflamed and painful. I have solved this very simply by wearing a wristband made of stretch cotton towelling, which was bought at a sports shop (pack of 2 cost 1.50 pounds) and intended for racket players -- tennis, squash, etc. This not only supports the wrist but acts as a cushion and I have found it far more effective than the expensive purpose-designed wrist rest, which was tried and discarded. Mary Warren ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:15:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michelle Bond Subject: Re: Seeking Information Hi Diane, Thanks for replying. I am looking for software for back of book indexes. We are currently working on a book project and will have to create an index on completion. I envisage that I will in the future have to work with different types of indexes, depending on the volume and type of publication from the office. This we have not determined as yet, as the office is in the development stages, charting our work programmes etc. I want to ensure that I recommend the correct type of package, and not go for something which will make indexing complicated or difficult in the future, especially if the work load increases. Reagrds Michelle > -----Original Message----- > From: Diane Worden [SMTP:WordenDex@AOL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 5:02 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Seeking Information > > Michelle, > > As a former librarian and current indexer, I am puzzled by your > question about > appropriate indexing software. Cindex, Macrex, and SKY are not meant > to be > used in cataloging or assigning subject heading to holdings, but to > create > back of the book or journal indexes. Perhaps I've misinterpreted your > note. > As a solo librarian in a nonprofit organization that also sometimes > published > books, I had the opportunity to develop several indexing skills for > various > kinds of indexes. Is this your situation now? > Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barczak, Jessie" Subject: Re: Seeking Information I am just becoming familiar with CINDEX ... and I believe it is designed for just such a project. Correct me if I'm wrong ... M. Jessie Barczak Research Analyst Powell Tate Washington 202-434-8533 jbarczak@washington.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Michelle Bond [SMTP:Mbond@ISA.ORG.JM] > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:16 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Seeking Information > > Hi Diane, > Thanks for replying. I am looking for software for back of book indexes. > We are currently working on a book project and will have to create an > index on completion. I envisage that I will in the future have to work > with different types of indexes, depending on the volume and type of > publication from the office. This we have not determined as yet, as the > office is in the development stages, charting our work programmes etc. I > want to ensure that I recommend the correct type of package, and not go > for something which will make indexing complicated or difficult in the > future, especially if the work load increases. > > Reagrds > Michelle > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Diane Worden [SMTP:WordenDex@AOL.COM] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 5:02 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Re: Seeking Information > > > > Michelle, > > > > As a former librarian and current indexer, I am puzzled by your > > question about > > appropriate indexing software. Cindex, Macrex, and SKY are not meant > > to be > > used in cataloging or assigning subject heading to holdings, but to > > create > > back of the book or journal indexes. Perhaps I've misinterpreted your > > note. > > As a solo librarian in a nonprofit organization that also sometimes > > published > > books, I had the opportunity to develop several indexing skills for > > various > > kinds of indexes. Is this your situation now? > > Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:33:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Website indexing Marite, Web indexing is the creation of electronic indexes for web-based documents. Using links, a web index might cover all the documents in a single website, for example, or might include many websites on a similar topic. It differs from back-of-book indexing mainly in the tools used, since links instead of page numbers must be inserted into the index to guide users to the relevant information. Also, since the index itself is an electronic document, it must be prepared using HTML or another web-friendly language. A Web Indexing special-interest group (SIG) formed several months ago. You can contact Kevin Broccoli at brocindx@catskill.net for information about joining. I'm helping to construct a website for the group, which will hopefully help to clarify the scope of web indexing. Anne > ---------- > From: Marite Tweeddale > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:22 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Website indexing > > Exactly what is this. ie how is it done? As I am unclear about what it is > I'm unlikely to be doing it in the near future, but would like some > elucidation. > > Thanks > > Marite > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:48:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Welsh Subject: Y2K Compliance Can anyone tell me how to test my computers for Y2K compliance? I do most of my work on a P-166 running Win95, and I keep my accounts on a 486-33 running Win 3.1. My guess is neither of them are compliant, and I'm almost scared to run the test for fear just doing that will do something drastic to the computers! Looking on the bright side, however... I understand that replacing hardware and software for Y2K compliance is 100% tax-deductible (up to $50,000), in Canada. (Given my tax bracket, that news isn't as cheery as it could be...) Kate Welsh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:14:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: Y2K Compliance In-Reply-To: <199810281951.NAA16836@deimos.flash.net> My husband brought home some interesting instructions on how to test. I bet your Win95 machine is compliant. I bought mine in 1995, and it is, probably because I installed an updated bios in the mean time. I think you need to start your computer (the Win95 one) and choose delete to go into setup before Windows begins loading. You will see DOS-type screen with the current date and time in the top left area. Just change the date to 12/31/1999 and the time to about 23:58 or something. Then power down the machine before it gets a chance to load Windows. Wait a couple of minutes, and start it again, choose delete again to go into setup and see what the date/time say. For mine the year said 2000, so I knew it was ok. You then have to change the date/time back to current. The instructions didn't say that performing the test could itself cause damage, but I wouldn't let Windows finish loading with the 2000 year. And, just because your basic computer is compliant, doesn't mean your software is. I think I have to get a new version of Quicken, for instance, to make sure it's compliant. I don't know about Win3.1, but I doubt it's compliant. I never used it, since I changed from Mac to PC in 1995. Joanne AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "That love is all we know is all we know of love" Emily Dickinson -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu] On Behalf Of Kate Welsh Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 1:49 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Y2K Compliance Can anyone tell me how to test my computers for Y2K compliance? I do most of my work on a P-166 running Win95, and I keep my accounts on a 486-33 running Win 3.1. My guess is neither of them are compliant, and I'm almost scared to run the test for fear just doing that will do something drastic to the computers! Looking on the bright side, however... I understand that replacing hardware and software for Y2K compliance is 100% tax-deductible (up to $50,000), in Canada. (Given my tax bracket, that news isn't as cheery as it could be...) Kate Welsh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:19:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Y2K Compliance In-Reply-To: <199810281954.OAA07519@mail2.bellsouth.net> Hi, Kate-- Assuming your Pentium is less than 2 or 3 years old, you *probably* won't have a problem with it. But it's very easy to check both machines, like thusly: 1. Dig out your Win95 boot disk. (You have one, don't you? Well, make a new one via the Add/Remove Programs icon in the Control Panel...) 2. Kill your Pentium, put the boot disk in the floppy drive, and start ' er up. 3. At the a: prompt, type . The DOS date command shows the current date and then prompts you for a new one. Enter <12-31-1999>. 4. Type