From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Thu Dec 24 18:09:55 1998 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:45:59 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Ilana Kingsley Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9811A" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:25:39 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Beginners' rates Nicholas W. Koenig wrote: by the page or something similar? I do recall an add some years ago for > people to write pornography for $1 a page but I don't know of any other > examples. I don't know about writing porn, but translators (who, it could be argued, are also creative writers) in Europe are effectively paid by the page. One German publisher whose contract I have in front of me pays 'per manuscript page'. Their definition of a manuscript page is 1,800 keystrokes (including blanks) which is about 270-300 words - rather more than the 250 words I have seen quoted in other contexts as an average. In the UK, however, the rate for translation is normally calculated per 1,000 words. Christine ************************************************************ Christine Shuttleworth, Indexing & Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB, UK e-mail: cshuttle@dircon.co.uk **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 08:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: vacation spam? Some autoresponders can be set, or are automatically set, to send only one message to an e-mail address during the time frame it is set for, so you only get one for as long as they are away. (These are the relatively "smart" ones.) The Exchange (pre-Outlook) one I am familiar with did not respond to internet messages at all, only to internal company ones, so mailing lists were unaffected. Iris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:34:00 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Shotter Subject: beginners questions Hi all I am compiling a practice index and have come across a couple of points that I need clarification on. When an illustration is on the same page as the text, should the page number be repeated (bearing in mind that I would use italics to indicate an illustration but haven't learnt how to do that on e-mail yet!) i.e. glass industry 21, 21ill I'm pretty sure that this is correct but a whole string of entries like this looks a bit clumsy. The book that I am indexing is on the history of Sussex. I have made a heading for "Roman villas" with subheadings for the locations of the villas. My problem is Fishbourne Roman Palace. I realise that there is a difference between a Roman villa and a Roman Palace but, being a local, I have heard Fishbourne Roman Palace referred to as Fishbourne Roman villa on numerous occasions. Should I use this knowledge to enter Fishbourne beneath Roman villas, bearing in mind that a great many of the users would be local? The author only refers to it as a Palace. Should I list it separately under Roman Palace, Fishbourne I have of course, already entered it under Fishbourne, Roman Palace I would be grateful for any input you could give me. You can see that confidence in my own decisions is something that I have to work on! Cheers Sandra sandrashotter@whd.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:03:56 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Standardizing rates A question has been raised in previous discussions regarding what a standard "page" is. This problem occurred in medical transcription. It was solved when a transcriptionist developed a word counting utility program which works in WordPerfect 5.1 through 7 (and maybe now 8, I haven't checked) as well as Word. The standard now is to charge $X rate per thousand words. This could be made to apply to indexing as well. For those receiving manuscripts on disk or via e-mail, the manuscript could be convered into WP or Word format, counted, and the rate be charged per thousand words. Or, since the "average" page is about 300 words, the rate could be quoted as per 300 words. Just a thought . . . Jeri Lee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:22:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Standardizing rates I think that the solution of standardizing rates per X number of words doesn't solve the real problem inherent in per-page rates. The words in a children's science book are not equivalent to the words in a high-level philosophy book because the index is based upon the relative number of points of access to the topics involved, not to the number of words on a page. So there is still the problem of establishing criteria per fields of endeavor. In my experience, some topics require more index entries than other fields do. For example, history and archaeology books have lots of synonyms terms, overlapping terms, object versus behavior double-posts, and so forth. I can calculate a relative number of indexable terms per page for these fields (based on experience), which has nothing to do with the actual number of words per page. My rate for a history book would still be higher than my rate for a children's science book, whether I calculate it per page or per word because I know that I will include more points of access (more entries) in the former than in the latter. We would need rates based on book audiences, topics, space limitations, and so forth. When I quote a rate to a client, I take all these factors and more into account. From my soapbox, Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:35:43 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Standardizing rates I think you have the best of both worlds. You quote a per page rate that takes into account the complexity of the subject matter and elicit a commitment from the publisher to pay a specific amount for the job. You probably feel comfortable with what you're being paid and the publisher can't complain about how much the job costs. Barbara Cohen wrote: > > I think that the solution of standardizing rates per X number of words doesn't > solve the real problem inherent in per-page rates. The words in a children's > science book are not equivalent to the words in a high-level philosophy book > because the index is based upon the relative number of points of access to the > topics involved, not to the number of words on a page. > > So there is still the problem of establishing criteria per fields of endeavor. > In my experience, some topics require more index entries than other fields do. > For example, history and archaeology books have lots of synonyms terms, > overlapping terms, object versus behavior double-posts, and so forth. I can > calculate a relative number of indexable terms per page for these fields > (based on experience), which has nothing to do with the actual number of words > per page. My rate for a history book would still be higher than my rate for a > children's science book, whether I calculate it per page or per word because I > know that I will include more points of access (more entries) in the former > than in the latter. > > We would need rates based on book audiences, topics, space limitations, and so > forth. When I quote a rate to a client, I take all these factors and more into > account. > > >From my soapbox, > > Barbara E. Cohen > Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:52:02 -0600 Reply-To: huffmanb@earthlink.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Huffman Subject: Beginner's rates Hi. everyone... As an observer and student, I have not decided whether charging a lower rate to start out is a good idea or not. If it means working instead of not working, then I would do it. However, my fear would be getting stuck at that rate for all time. Regarding charging by the hour or page, here I have no doubt ... I definitely think by the page (or as someone mentioned, by the entry) is the way to go. I know for a fact on my first professional job I am going to spend ten times the amount of time on it that a similar job will take a year later. Therefore it would be really unfair to charge the publisher for my slowness in getting the job done. It's somewhat similar to my work as a medical transcriptionist. Starting out I did get paid by the hour (and come to think of it, it was only $5 hour -- which might be analogous to indexing a page for maybe $1.00 a page). However, now I definitely work for a place where I can earn incentive based on what I produce. The reason is that whereas I can turn out 2300 lines in a ten-hour day, the person in the opposite cubicle struggles to produce 800 in eight hours. Similar quality of end product, but who is doing more? Just from a "greed" point of view, charging by the unit, whether page or entry, is much more attractive to the indexer. Yes, the indexer will want to make sure the quality is good. The publisher is also going to do this, and will not hire you again if the quality is not good. This has been an interesting discussion and I have learned a lot! Thanks! Nancy Huffman Rose Hill, KS huffmanb@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:03:26 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: vacation spam? In-Reply-To: <199810311654.KAA24764@phobos.flash.net> Do Mi, I only got one. I thought it was from a tech support service I'd just signed up for. Perhaps not.... Joanne AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "That love is all we know is all we know of love" Emily Dickinson -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu] On Behalf Of DStaub11@AOL.COM Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 10:53 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: vacation spam? Is anyone else getting repeated "I'm on vacation" messages from annew@interdyn.com (Anne Weiner)? I've been getting about two a day for two weeks, and it's starting to feel like spam. I replied to the email addressed and asked what was going on but didn't get a reply. It's signed Anne Weiner, Technical Writer, Internet Dynamics. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:40:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TennWords@AOL.COM Subject: (no subject) Good Morning to All! The Nov/Dec issue of "TennWords," the online newsletter of the Tennessee Regional Group of ASI, has been uploaded to our web site. This month's issue contains: Communication Skills in Writing and Speaking by Susan Wilkerson Window on Web Indexing--Is It Just Hype? by Kevin Broccoli The Answer Guru--What Do I Need for My Office? by Dawn Spencer and more! Our web site is at: http://members.aol.com/tennwords/home.html We hope you will come by to visit us! As always, we keep the cyber-coffee hot.... Dawn Spencer indexlady@aol.com Contact for the Tennessee Regional Group of the American Society of Indexers tennwords@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:32:37 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 30 Oct 1998 to 31 Oct 1998 In-Reply-To: <04595884037816@domain1.bigpond.com> Anne Truesdale wrote: >Query for the technically oriented among us: Is there some reason why MS does >not zip their files? When I downloaded the upgrade from Outlook 97 to Outlook >98 it took over 2 hours, for Pete's sake! (Before anyone gets the wrong idea, >I did not sit there watching the little pages fly -- I went to bed & let AOL >sign off.) Probably because Microsoft knows that novices have enough problems just finding their programs, downloading and installing them, without having to add another step to the process. Apropos of long downloads, may I suggest that you all check your local newsagencies for computer magazines with CD-ROMs on the cover? These often contain updates and patches in a more portable and more permanent form than the Internet and can be excellent value for money. In Australia my choice is Australian PC User. Jonathan =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal Diagonal@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 04:44:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Standardizing rates In-Reply-To: <199811012208.OAA00250@decibel.electriciti.com> At 02:03 PM 11/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >A question has been raised in previous discussions regarding >what a standard "page" is. This problem occurred in medical >transcription. It was solved when a transcriptionist >developed a word counting utility program which works in >WordPerfect 5.1 through 7 (and maybe now 8, I haven't >checked) as well as Word. > In my experience, book indexing varies enormously in complexity and indexing challenge. A strickly per-word rate--beyond being price-fixing (illegal in the USA)--would just not be fair. Even though I may do more intellectual analysis for a page with three index entries than a medical text page with 10 medication entries, this evens out and per-entry rates, in my opinion, most fairly (for me and customer) reflects my work and the value of my work to those who hire me. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:09:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Christine Shuttleworth wrote: >I don't know about writing porn, but translators (who, it could be argued, > are also creative writers) in Europe are effectively paid by the page. One > German publisher whose contract I have in front of me pays 'per manuscript > page'. Their definition of a manuscript page is 1,800 keystrokes (including > blanks) which is about 270-300 words - rather more than the 250 words I have > seen quoted in other contexts as an average. In the UK, however, the rate > for translation is normally calculated per 1,000 words. _________________ Might the difference in definition of a manuscript page have to do with the size of the paper? In the US, the average size of business writing paper is 8 1/2" x 11". In Europe, isn't the standard "A4" paper, which is about 1 1/2" longer? Just asking. Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:52:06 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: vacation spam? I'm not getting doubles, but I do wonder what they're about. Who Is Anne Weiner? I've gotten others like this. Suellen On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:53:03 EST DStaub11@AOL.COM writes: >Is anyone else getting repeated "I'm on vacation" messages from >annew@interdyn.com (Anne Weiner)? I've been getting about two a day >for two >weeks, and it's starting to feel like spam. I replied to the email >addressed >and asked what was going on but didn't get a reply. It's signed Anne >Weiner, >Technical Writer, Internet Dynamics. > >Do Mi > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:00:16 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Update: web indexing article in E&P Online I just learned that the "Stop the Presses" column featuring an interview with Kevin Broccoli is no longer listed on the main contents page of Editor & Publisher Magazine's web site. After several futile attempts with E&P's behemoth search engine, I finally found the article by following a link to the author's web site and another link back to E&P's archives. (They could use a good index!) Here's the address where you can read it, too: http://www.mediainfo.com/ephome/news/newshtm/stop/st103098.htm --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! (http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/) See our web site to download HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:37:13 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Beginners' rates Elaine R. Firestone wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker Subject: Vacation spam I've gotten busted on this a couple times. I checked with one of our techies, who said there's a way to indicate who gets the messages and who doesn't. Sure enough, I went to our little "Vacation" database, and the default is set to "All messages sent to you." So those annoying little messages get sent to the world! The alternative (which I will now always do) is to click on the "Messages with your name in the To: field" line. Then, only those who are sending ME a message (as opposed me as part of a listserv) will get the vacation message. Our program is called "Out of Office" by Qxcom. Probably other packages have a similar way to change who gets these messages. Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:29:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: vacation spam? It makes sense that this was some kind of autoresponder. Thanks for the information, everybody! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:20:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Nicholas W. Koenig (nkoenig@SPRYNET.COM) wrote, in part: >... >Publishers, and some other employers I know of who hire >freelancers, probably like to pay by the page because >it makes things easy for them. They can't supervise >freelancers, can't be sure their hourly charges are accurate >and are absolved from having to pay people who work at >different speeds exactly the same. >... As Do Mi and others pointed out, many indexers find per-page pricing advantageous. I would like to mention another advantage of the per-page method for publishers, in addition to predictability and simplicity. The US Internal Revenue Service has guidelines for distinguishing employees from independent contract workers; this is a crucial financial consideration for publishers, since they are liable for various taxes and penalties if people doing contract work are found by the IRS to be "employees." According to the IRS document (which is not an exact checklist, just a list of factors), being paid by the hour weakens the case for independent contractor status, whereas the contractor taking a risk of loss (as in bidding jobs at a fixed price, thus risking the consequences of underestimating a job) strengthens the case for same. As has been pointed out, pricing indexing services per page is a type of fixed bid. Of course, there are other factors which lean strongly against freelance indexers being found to be "employees." Obviously, some publishers do not find the fixed-bid factor compelling, since they prefer paying by the hour or by the entry, but it may be a consideration for some in choosing per-page pricing for indexes. Larry Harrison [Spam-proof return address; remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:33:35 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Mashrak / Lome From Christine Headley I am indexing a law book. It has a chapter on the EU's relationship with countries around the Mediterranean, which has a subsection entitled 'Maghreb and Mashrak'. This subsection is almost entirely concerned with North Africa, particularly Tunisia, though there is a brief glance at the West Bank and Gaza. My encyclopaedia - the one which includes the word - and a quick websearch indicate that 'Mashrak' is roughly cognate with 'the Middle East' (about which there is a very short chapter later which deals with the Gulf States [particularly Iraq, which I wouldn't have put there, myself] and Yemen). The editor is hassling me for the index, which indicates that the rest of the book is beyond the point of no return. 1) Is the inclusion of 'Mashrak' with 'Maghreb' a certain blooper? (Facts please) 2) If so, is it worth drawing it to the attention of the editor, who may then lose what hair he has left? (Opinions welcome!) I'm also coming across a lot of references to the current Lome Convention and the majority are to the 'Lome IV Convention'. Its fourthness is not in doubt, but the word order looks rather odd. I'd appreciate opinions from others who do more books on developing countries than I do. Christine A version of this has also been crossposted to Copyediting-L. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:39:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Fw: Windows NT Tip - Handling Viruses -----Original Message----- From: ESI Tech Support To: ESI Tech Support Mail List Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 7:34 PM Subject: Windows NT Tip - Handling Viruses > Windows NT* Technical Article > 2 November 1998 > Handling Viruses > > >We all know about computer viruses, and many people are quite worried about >them, but they are not really dangerous if you understand them and take >reasonable precautions. > > >E-Mail Viruses > >I'm sure you have all received e-mails warning you of dire consequences if >you read an e-mail whose subject is "Good News!" or "AOL4FREE" or something >like that. These are hoaxes intended to damage free communication by making >people afraid to use e-mail. When you consider the time wasted reading and >forwarding such things, they are as destructive as the real thing. > >It is not possible -- NOT POSSIBLE -- to get a virus by just reading an >e-mail, unless the e-mail contains a macro or attachment that you then >execute. > >Here are two simple rules that, if followed, will protect you from any >e-mailed virus: > >1. If you ever read a mail message and you get a warning that alerts you >that the mail contains macros, make sure that you select the option to >disable macros before you continue. > >2. If you ever receive a mail message from someone you do not know and that >mail contains an attachment, do not open the attachment till you have made >sure the attachment does not contain a virus. There are programs on the >market that can be used to check such things. > >You should also be aware that both Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Word have a >built-in macro checker that will alert you to the existence of a macro in a >file that you open as long as you do not disable this function. > >The next time you get one of these hoaxes, instead of forwarding it, please >reply to it with this article. > > >Sources of Viruses > >Computer viruses are not as common as most people believe, and rather easy >to avoid. Commercial software on commercial CD-ROMs is almost guaranteed to >be virus-free, but any software on floppy disks or non-commercial CDs can be >a risk. Anyone can make floppies and non-commercial CDs, and can put >anything they want on them. It doesn't matter who wrote the program; >someone else can add to it or alter it. Commercial CDs have data, usually >the name of the company that burns the CDs, burned into the inside track and >visible to the naked eye. Recordable CDs lack this, and usually have a >batch number on the unsilvered area of the hub. Be wary of any CD that >lacks this identification, and certainly of anything with a stick-on label. >Of course, even a commercial CD could be infected, since a criminal could >hack into the manufacturer's system and plant a virus before the CD master >is made, but this is extremely unlikely. > >By far the most common source of a virus infection is downloaded software. >Anything downloaded can be infected, even from big, reliable, >long-established companies. It's not easy for criminals to break into such >systems, and it certainly is very rare, but it has been done. A public >bulletin board (BBS) is probably the easiest place to plant a virus. A good >Sysop (the System Operator for the BBS) can keep the BBS clean, but some are >careless. > >Some viruses attach themselves to programs on the infected system, and are >transmitted to other systems when the programs are copied. If a friend >gives you a copy of a program, check it for a virus, even if you trust your >friend; his system may be infected. > > >Protection > >It is a good idea to have an anti-virus program; they are cheap, easy to >use, and easy to keep updated. You do have to keep getting the updates, >because these programs use an anti-virus database to recognize viruses, and >this database must be upgraded when new viruses are discovered. Sometimes >an anti-virus program will interfere with the installation of new software, >especially if you are installing a Service Pack. That means you should >disable the anti-virus when installing new software, but that leaves you >unprotected should there be a virus. What now? > >The best defense is to have a test machine, not on a network, not connected >to anything else. You disable the anti-virus on the test machine, load the >new software, then start the anti-virus and test. Once you have established >that the software is clean, you can load it onto your production system. > >OK, most of us can't afford to have a machine we only use for virus >checking. The next best solution is a test disk. On my home machine, Disk >0 is a 2GB IDE disk, with two 1GB partitions. The first is a secondary >Windows NT installation which I use to repair my primary system partition as >needed. The other partition has Windows NT installed, but the disk >configuration only sees the two partitions on Drive 0. I boot to it and do >virus checks. I figure the worst a virus can do is wipe out the two >partitions on Disk 0, and they are easily rebuilt. > >Naturally no system or procedure can guarantee absolute safety. If you are >reasonably careful, use an anti-virus, always virus-check new software, and >keep your backups updated, you should never have any significant trouble >from a virus. > >For more data on virus hoaxes, try these sites: > >http://kumite.com/myths/home.htm > > > > >Lance Jensen >Technical Support Manager >Executive Software* International, Inc. > > >If you do not wish to receive these articles, or you would like to be added >to the list, please let us know by sending your request to >TECH_SUPPORT@EXECUTIVE.COM. > >If you have any problems or questions, please send them to me at >tech_support@executive.com. > >For reprint permission for any of these articles, please >contact Jobee Knight, Director of Public Relations, by e-mail at >dirpr@executive.com or by phone at 1-800-829-6468. > >If you have any comments or suggestions, please send them to Quality >Assurance at QA@executive.com. > > > >* 1998 Executive Software International, Inc. All Rights Reserved. > >Diskeeper, Undelete and Executive Software are trademarks owned by > Executive Software International, Inc. > >Microsoft, Windows NT and Backoffice are either registered > trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corporation in the > United States and/or other countries. > >All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:05:09 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Daniel A. Connolly" Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Merriam-Webster Geographical Dict. As i build my library...can anyone tell me if the MW Geographical Dictionary is a worthwhile resource? I'll be getting a good deal on it. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:29:57 +0000 Reply-To: mil0409@ibm.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Miller Subject: HELP PLEASE I changed internet providers and now I need to let someone know. I cant seem to get the bookmarks or even sign on using netscape with my other user name. the new provider has 'ownership' now of communicator and so I wonder what to do to move my mail or at least my bookmarks to this new user profile. paper@LJ.NET is no longer. thanks for advice. rebecca miller I am now mil0409@ibm.net love it since i dont get disconnected so frequently as with the other...! go big blue! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:08:03 +0000 Reply-To: paper@lj.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sunny Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE So sorry: I HAVE discovered how to access my other netscape profile. ONly now, I still wish to have my bookmarks , set in one profile to go tot he other profile, seamlessly.....wonder how... Rebecca Miller wrote: > I changed internet providers and now I need to let someone know. I cant > seem to get the bookmarks or even sign on using netscape with my other > user name. the new provider has 'ownership' now of communicator and so I > wonder what to do to move my mail or at least my bookmarks to this new > user profile. > paper@LJ.NET is no longer. > thanks for advice. > rebecca miller > I am now mil0409@ibm.net > love it since i dont get disconnected so frequently as with the > other...! > go big blue! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 05:30:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Mashrak / Lome Dear Christine I've never come across the Mashrak difficulty but I've indexed (I'm a pure (well, I only do!) law books)) many materials which mention the Lome Convention and the word order you quote is the common and correct one. Best wishes Kim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:06:18 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: Re: Merriam-Webster Geographical Dict. I just recently purchased the latest addition of the Geographical Dictionary. I HAVE found it useful over the years (I do scholarly indexes), even though I don't use it as much as the Webster's Biographical Dictionary. Margie Towery Towery Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:44:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Mesner Subject: Re: Fw: Windows NT Tip - Handling Viruses In-Reply-To: <199811040204.VAA24331@smtp.uky.edu> Hi Folks, I can see the "WIN A VACATION" message is traveling. I'm not sure this is a virus or not, but virus warnings are a familiar form of electronic hoax. I'm going to check with my gurus and find out this morning if there is anything to this. In the meantime, I thing the following message might be of some help. Love, Lil At 08:39 PM 11/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: ESI Tech Support >To: ESI Tech Support Mail List >Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 7:34 PM >Subject: Windows NT Tip - Handling Viruses > > >> Windows NT* Technical Article >> 2 November 1998 >> Handling Viruses >> >> >>We all know about computer viruses, and many people are quite worried about >>them, but they are not really dangerous if you understand them and take >>reasonable precautions. >> >> >>E-Mail Viruses >> >>I'm sure you have all received e-mails warning you of dire consequences if >>you read an e-mail whose subject is "Good News!" or "AOL4FREE" or something >>like that. These are hoaxes intended to damage free communication by >making >>people afraid to use e-mail. When you consider the time wasted reading and >>forwarding such things, they are as destructive as the real thing. >> >>It is not possible -- NOT POSSIBLE -- to get a virus by just reading an >>e-mail, unless the e-mail contains a macro or attachment that you then >>execute. >> >>Here are two simple rules that, if followed, will protect you from any >>e-mailed virus: >> >>1. If you ever read a mail message and you get a warning that alerts you >>that the mail contains macros, make sure that you select the option to >>disable macros before you continue. >> >>2. If you ever receive a mail message from someone you do not know and that >>mail contains an attachment, do not open the attachment till you have made >>sure the attachment does not contain a virus. There are programs on the >>market that can be used to check such things. >> >>You should also be aware that both Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Word have >a >>built-in macro checker that will alert you to the existence of a macro in a >>file that you open as long as you do not disable this function. >> >>The next time you get one of these hoaxes, instead of forwarding it, please >>reply to it with this article. >> >> >>Sources of Viruses >> >>Computer viruses are not as common as most people believe, and rather easy >>to avoid. Commercial software on commercial CD-ROMs is almost guaranteed >to >>be virus-free, but any software on floppy disks or non-commercial CDs can >be >>a risk. Anyone can make floppies and non-commercial CDs, and can put >>anything they want on them. It doesn't matter who wrote the program; >>someone else can add to it or alter it. Commercial CDs have data, usually >>the name of the company that burns the CDs, burned into the inside track >and >>visible to the naked eye. Recordable CDs lack this, and usually have a >>batch number on the unsilvered area of the hub. Be wary of any CD that >>lacks this identification, and certainly of anything with a stick-on label. >>Of course, even a commercial CD could be infected, since a criminal could >>hack into the manufacturer's system and plant a virus before the CD master >>is made, but this is extremely unlikely. >> >>By far the most common source of a virus infection is downloaded software. >>Anything downloaded can be infected, even from big, reliable, >>long-established companies. It's not easy for criminals to break into such >>systems, and it certainly is very rare, but it has been done. A public >>bulletin board (BBS) is probably the easiest place to plant a virus. A >good >>Sysop (the System Operator for the BBS) can keep the BBS clean, but some >are >>careless. >> >>Some viruses attach themselves to programs on the infected system, and are >>transmitted to other systems when the programs are copied. If a friend >>gives you a copy of a program, check it for a virus, even if you trust your >>friend; his system may be infected. >> >> >>Protection >> >>It is a good idea to have an anti-virus program; they are cheap, easy to >>use, and easy to keep updated. You do have to keep getting the updates, >>because these programs use an anti-virus database to recognize viruses, and >>this database must be upgraded when new viruses are discovered. Sometimes >>an anti-virus program will interfere with the installation of new software, >>especially if you are installing a Service Pack. That means you should >>disable the anti-virus when installing new software, but that leaves you >>unprotected should there be a virus. What now? >> >>The best defense is to have a test machine, not on a network, not connected >>to anything else. You disable the anti-virus on the test machine, load the >>new software, then start the anti-virus and test. Once you have >established >>that the software is clean, you can load it onto your production system. >> >>OK, most of us can't afford to have a machine we only use for virus >>checking. The next best solution is a test disk. On my home machine, Disk >>0 is a 2GB IDE disk, with two 1GB partitions. The first is a secondary >>Windows NT installation which I use to repair my primary system partition >as >>needed. The other partition has Windows NT installed, but the disk >>configuration only sees the two partitions on Drive 0. I boot to it and do >>virus checks. I figure the worst a virus can do is wipe out the two >>partitions on Disk 0, and they are easily rebuilt. >> >>Naturally no system or procedure can guarantee absolute safety. If you are >>reasonably careful, use an anti-virus, always virus-check new software, and >>keep your backups updated, you should never have any significant trouble >>from a virus. >> >>For more data on virus hoaxes, try these sites: >> >>http://kumite.com/myths/home.htm >> >> >> >> >>Lance Jensen >>Technical Support Manager >>Executive Software* International, Inc. >> >> >>If you do not wish to receive these articles, or you would like to be added >>to the list, please let us know by sending your request to >>TECH_SUPPORT@EXECUTIVE.COM. >> >>If you have any problems or questions, please send them to me at >>tech_support@executive.com. >> >>For reprint permission for any of these articles, please >>contact Jobee Knight, Director of Public Relations, by e-mail at >>dirpr@executive.com or by phone at 1-800-829-6468. >> >>If you have any comments or suggestions, please send them to Quality >>Assurance at QA@executive.com. >> >> >> >>* 1998 Executive Software International, Inc. All Rights Reserved. >> >>Diskeeper, Undelete and Executive Software are trademarks owned by >> Executive Software International, Inc. >> >>Microsoft, Windows NT and Backoffice are either registered >> trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corporation in the >> United States and/or other countries. >> >>All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. >> > > ***************************************************************************** Lillian R. Mesner Lexington, KY 40506-0456 Serials Dept. Phone: 606-257-0500 Ext. 2130 William T. Young Library Fax: 606-257-8379 University of Kentucky Email: lmesner@pop.uky.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:52:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "W. Nadine Kruger" Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE Rebecca, I have switched internet providers a FEW times and I haven't had this problem.... I was with a company before this one in which Netscape was their main browser...now I'm with a company that really has no main browser. What I noticed was, I could still use Netscape, I just chose my OLD profile and all my old bookmarks came up. (I had already dialed up using "My Connection" from the new ISP. I would assume if you tried to log on my opening the browser, which starts the connection process going, it probably wouldn't work. The other thing is, I have always used Outlook Express for my mail program, never the one that is on Netscape. That way, all I have to do is change the settings in Outlook Express and keep the program open. It will work with whatever browser I happen to be using. Your new ISP should be able to help you with the bookmarks....but like I said, after having switched providers...uh....3 times? I haven't lost my bookmarks..... (but then, I mainly use IE 4.0. It works best with my company's extranet site.) Don't know if this will help. :) PS--Usually you can copy your bookmark files (under My Computer/Windows/Favorites) to a floppy disc and then save them into your New blank bookmark files with the new profile. Nadine -----Original Message----- From: Rebecca Miller To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 11:36 PM Subject: HELP PLEASE >I changed internet providers and now I need to let someone know. I cant >seem to get the bookmarks or even sign on using netscape with my other >user name. the new provider has 'ownership' now of communicator and so I >wonder what to do to move my mail or at least my bookmarks to this new >user profile. >paper@LJ.NET is no longer. >thanks for advice. >rebecca miller >I am now mil0409@ibm.net >love it since i dont get disconnected so frequently as with the >other...! >go big blue! > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:18:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Fw: Windows NT Tip - Handling Viruses The WIN A VACATION message is a hoax. There are several versions out there purporting to be from Bill Gates and Microsoft and Walt Disney, Jr. for Disney (which is amusing if you know anything about Walt Disney-- he didn't have any sons!) or some combination thereof. I've seen about four different versions of it. All of the virus/hoax pages list it-- it's been going around for two or three years. -- Sharon W. x7255 Rm. 223 Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillian Mesner [SMTP:lmesner@POP.UKY.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 8:45 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Fw: Windows NT Tip - Handling Viruses > > Hi Folks, > I can see the "WIN A VACATION" message is traveling. I'm not sure > this is > a virus or not, but virus warnings are a familiar form of electronic hoax. > I'm going to check with my gurus and find out this morning if there is > anything to this. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:49:08 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Owens Subject: Standard Generalised Markup Language Can anyone tell me what is meant by Standard Generalised Markup Language? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:28:00 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Szakal Gabriella (NTC/MSG-Bu)" Subject: Re: Standard Generalised Markup Language Hi, Here is a short description: Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML) A generic markup language for representing documents. SGML is an International Standard that describes the relationship between a document's content and its structure. SGML allows document-based information to be shared and re-used across applications and computer platforms in an open, vendor-neutral format. SGML is sometimes compared to SQL, in that it enables companies to structure information in documents in an open fashion, so that it can be accessed or re-used by any SGML-aware application across multiple platforms. SGML is defined in "ISO 8879:1986 Information processing -- Text and office systems -- Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML)", an ISO standard produced by JTC 1/SC 18 and amended by "Amendment 1:1988". Unlike other common document file formats that represent both content and presentation, SGML represents a document's content data and structure (interrelationships among the data). Removing the presentation from content establishes a neutral format. SGML documents and the information in them can easily be re-used by publishing and non-publishing applications. SGML identifies document elements such as titles, paragraphs, tables and chapters as distinct objects, allowing users to define the relationships between the objects for structuring data in documents. The relationships between document elements are defined in a DTD (Document Type Descriptor). This is roughly analogous to a collection of field definitions in a database. Once a document is converted into SGML and the information has been 'tagged', it becomes a database-like document. It can be searched, printed or even programmatically manipulated by SGML-aware applications. Companies are moving their documents into SGML for several reasons: Reuse - separation of content from presentation facilitates multiple delivery formats like CD-ROM and electronic publishing. Portability - SGML is an international, platform-independent, standard based on ASCII text, so companies can safely store their documents in SGML without being tied to any one vendor. Interchange - SGML is a core data standard that enables SGML-aware applications to inter-operate and share data seamlessly. A central SGML document store can feed multiple processes in a company, so managing and updating information is greatly simplified. For example, when an aeroplane is delivered to a customer, it comes with thousands of pages of documentation. Distributing these on paper is expensive, so companies are investigating publishing on CD-ROM. If a maintenance person needs a guide for adjusting a plane's flight surfaces, a viewing tool automatically assembles the relevant information from the document repository as a complete document. SGML can be used to define attributes to information stored in documents such as security levels. There are few clear leaders in the SGML industry which, in 1993, was estimated to be worth US $520 million and is projected to grow to over US $1.46 billion by 1998. A wide variety tools can be used to create SGML systems. The SGML industry can be separated into the following categories: Mainstream Authoring consists of the key word processing vendors like Lotus, WordPerfect and Microsoft. SGML Editing and Publishing includes traditional SGML authoring tools like ArborText, Interleaf, FrameBuilder and SoftQuad Author/Editor. SGML Conversions is one of the largest sectors in the market today because many companies are converting legacy data from mainframes, or documents created with mainstream word processors, into SGML. Electronic Delivery is widely regarded as the most compelling reason companies are moving to SGML. Electronic delivery enables users to retrieve information online using an intelligent document viewer. Document Management may one day drive a major part of the overall SGML industry. SGML Document Repositories is one of the cornerstone technologies that will affect the progress of SGML as a data standard. "ISO 8879:1986//ENTITIES Added Latin 1//EN" defines some characters. [How are these related to ISO 8859-1?]. ISO catalogue entry SGML parsers are available from VU, NL, FSU, UIO, Norway. See also sgmls. ["SGML - The User's Guide to ISO 8879", J.M. Smith et al, Ellis Harwood, 1988]. (30 Sep 1997) ********************************** Hope this helps. BR, Gabriella ---------- From: Richard Owens To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Standard Generalised Markup Language Date: Thu, Nov 5, 1998 12:49PM Can anyone tell me what is meant by Standard Generalised Markup Language? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Standard Generalised Markup Language Thanks, Gabriella! That's a wonderful, concise definition! -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Szakal Gabriella (NTC/MSG-Bu) [SMTP:gabriella.szakal@NTC.NOKIA.COM] > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 6:28 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Standard Generalised Markup Language > > Hi, > > Here is a short description: > > Standard Generalized Markup Language > > (SGML) A generic markup language for representing > documents. SGML is an International Standard that describes the > relationship > between a document's content and its structure. SGML allows document-based > information to be shared and re-used across applications and computer > platforms in an open, vendor-neutral format. SGML is sometimes compared to > SQL, in that it enables companies to structure information in documents in > an open fashion, so that it can be accessed or re-used by any SGML-aware > application across multiple platforms. > > SGML is defined in "ISO 8879:1986 Information processing -- Text and > office > systems -- Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML)", an ISO standard > produced by JTC 1/SC 18 and amended by "Amendment 1:1988". > > Unlike other common document file formats that represent both content and > presentation, SGML represents a document's content data and structure > (interrelationships among the data). Removing the presentation from > content > establishes a neutral format. SGML documents and the information in them > can > easily be re-used by publishing and non-publishing applications. > > SGML identifies document elements such as titles, paragraphs, tables and > chapters as distinct objects, allowing users to define the relationships > between the objects for structuring data in documents. The relationships > between document elements are defined in a DTD (Document Type Descriptor). > This is roughly analogous to a collection of field definitions in a > database. Once a document is converted into SGML and the information has > been 'tagged', it becomes a database-like document. It can be searched, > printed or even programmatically manipulated by SGML-aware applications. > > Companies are moving their documents into SGML for several reasons: > > Reuse - separation of content from presentation facilitates multiple > delivery formats like CD-ROM and electronic publishing. > > Portability - SGML is an international, platform-independent, standard > based > on ASCII text, so companies can safely store their documents in SGML > without > being tied to any one vendor. > > Interchange - SGML is a core data standard that enables SGML-aware > applications to inter-operate and share data seamlessly. > > A central SGML document store can feed multiple processes in a company, so > managing and updating information is greatly simplified. For example, when > an aeroplane is delivered to a customer, it comes with thousands of pages > of > documentation. > Distributing these on paper is expensive, so companies are investigating > publishing on CD-ROM. If a maintenance person needs a guide for adjusting > a > plane's flight surfaces, a viewing tool automatically assembles the > relevant > information from the document repository as a complete document. SGML can > be > used to define attributes to information stored in documents such as > security levels. > > There are few clear leaders in the SGML industry which, in 1993, was > estimated to be worth US $520 million and is projected to grow to over US > $1.46 billion by 1998. > > A wide variety tools can be used to create SGML systems. The SGML industry > can be separated into the following categories: > > Mainstream Authoring consists of the key word processing vendors like > Lotus, > WordPerfect and Microsoft. > > SGML Editing and Publishing includes traditional SGML authoring tools like > ArborText, Interleaf, FrameBuilder and SoftQuad > Author/Editor. > > SGML Conversions is one of the largest sectors in the market today because > many companies are converting legacy data from mainframes, or documents > created with mainstream word processors, into SGML. > > Electronic Delivery is widely regarded as the most compelling reason > companies are moving to SGML. Electronic delivery enables users to > retrieve > information online using an intelligent document viewer. > > Document Management may one day drive a major part of the overall SGML > industry. > > SGML Document Repositories is one of the cornerstone technologies that > will > affect the progress of SGML as a data standard. > > "ISO 8879:1986//ENTITIES Added Latin 1//EN" defines some characters. [How > are these related to ISO 8859-1?]. > > ISO catalogue entry > > SGML parsers are available from VU, NL, FSU, UIO, Norway. > > See also sgmls. > > ["SGML - The User's Guide to ISO 8879", J.M. Smith et al, Ellis Harwood, > 1988]. > > (30 Sep 1997) > > ********************************** > > Hope this helps. > > BR, > Gabriella > ---------- > From: Richard Owens > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Standard Generalised Markup Language > Date: Thu, Nov 5, 1998 12:49PM > > Can anyone tell me what is meant by Standard Generalised Markup Language? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:19:24 -0400 Reply-To: lfs7@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Loraine Schacher Organization: Editor, Writer, Indexer Subject: Re: Standard Generalised Markup Language Thank you, Gabriella, for the best description/explanation of SGML I have seen! L. Schacher Szakal Gabriella (NTC/MSG-Bu) wrote: > > Hi, > > Here is a short description: > > Standard Generalized Markup Language > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:50:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Is the list up? INDEX-L seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, or very nearly. I've gotten only 4 or 5 messages in two days. Are we just having a slow period, or do I need to contact my ISP to find out what is going on? I would try resubbing, but since I've gotten a few messages, I don't think I've been unsubscribed. Please respond privately, as I may not be/am probably not receiving all messages to the list. TIA, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:14:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barczak, Jessie" Subject: Re: Is the list up? I'm still here, alive, and kicking ... M. Jessie Barczak Research Analyst Powell Tate Washington 202-434-8533 jbarczak@washington.com > -----Original Message----- > From: John and Kara Pekar [SMTP:jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET] > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 3:51 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Is the list up? > > INDEX-L seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, or very nearly. > I've gotten only 4 or 5 messages in two days. Are we just having a slow > period, or do I need to contact my ISP to find out what is going on? I > would try resubbing, but since I've gotten a few messages, I don't think > I've been unsubscribed. Please respond privately, as I may not be/am > probably not receiving all messages to the list. > > TIA, > > Kara Pekar > jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Is the list up? Judging from the few messages I've gotten in reply to my query, it is just a slow period. Everyone must be on deadline... Kara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:35:51 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Christine Headley Subject: Yugoslavia From Christine Headley Are the constituent parts of the erstwhile Yugoslavia, former Republics, Former Republics, Republics, or a mixture? The au has the latter and I don't know whether to go for consistency in the index. TIA Christine Stroud, Glos crossposted to Copyediting-L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:53:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Golden Gate chapter meeting American Society of Indexers--Golden Gate Chapter N O V E M B E R M E E T I N G A Roundtable on "What to Index--and Why: Hands-On Interpretations" Saturday, November 14, 1998 10:00 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. Marin County Free Library 2097 Sir Francis Drake Blvd. Fairfax (Marin County) Please bring a bag lunch; the chapter will provide coffee and drinks. Here's an opportunity for indexers with different backgrounds, skill levels, and specializations to come together to brainstorm and share information on what the indexing process is all about. Several short texts will be distributed at the meeting. We will index them on the spot and discuss the process together. Come prepared for a lively session! It will provide a great "warm-up" for Do Mi Stauber's intensive full-day workshop, "Facing the Text", coming up on March 20. Cost: $10 for members, $12 for nonmembers to cover materials and room cost Please register by printing out the form below and sending it in with your check by NOVEMBER 10. Questions? Email Therese Shere at tshere7566@aol.com. Directions: Get to Marin County from points south, north, or east. From Highway 101 at Greenbrae, get onto Sir Francis Drake Blvd heading west and continue to Fairfax. The library is on Sir Francis Drake at the northern border of Fairfax (not downtown), across from St. Rita's Church. If you are on the road and need more help, call the library at 415-453-8151 (they open at 10:00). Yes, I will be attending ASI-GG's Nov. 14th meeting. Name: _________________________________________________________________ Telephone: ______________________________________________________________ Amount enclosed ($10 members, $12 nonmembers): _____________________________ SEND TO: Therese Shere, 7566 Eastside Rd., Healdsburg CA 95448 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:45:45 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Daniel A. Connolly" Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Textbook Indexer posting Oops. That was Mayfield Publishing. I thought it was in the text. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:44:10 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Daniel A. Connolly" Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Textbook indexers wanted In the interests of helping someone, somewhere, I am posting this job lis= ting, which I stumbled across while doing some web browsing. I don't qualify, b= ut hope that the lucky recipient of a job might look kindly on a new indexer= , trying to get that first paid index job... (actually, the second--I helpe= d a fellow listmate complete a long name index last summer; he said my work w= as good). Freelance Indexer If you are an experienced indexer who has worked on college textbooks and would like to be added to our list of freelance indexers, please send a r=E9sum=E9, list of books indexed, and three refe= rences (preferably production editors you have worked for) to April Wells-Hayes, Senior Production Editor, at awhayes@mayfieldpub.com. We accept manuscripts and disk in many different programs; please indicate which software programs you use.= (We are happy to review copies of indexes you have created, but please do not send actual published books.)=20 Good luck to all, Dan --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:11:12 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Daniel A. Connolly" Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Indexing Shareware Chapter Two of Browsing the Internet: I have found an interesting shareware indexing program called KINDEX. It is supposed to be for author-indexers, and is only available for DOS, but will work with Windows (according to the write-up). I'm on Mac and was wondering if anyone wanted to check it out: http://www.apg.u-net.com/kindex.htm Here I go again... Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:37:00 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Beginner rates, revisited (long, but not as ranty as my original post ;-D) In-Reply-To: <199810290441.UAA10446@mail-gw5.pacbell.net> At 22:38 10/28/98 -0600, Susan wrote: > I know this subject was brought up over a week ago, but part of Lynn's >response to it has bothered me a bit all week. Hi Susan, Eeek! And you thought *you* were late in responding to this thread? ;-D I had yet ANOTHER Win98 adventure which had me off my system for nearly a week until hubby got it up and running again. In case anyone here has forgotten: I HATE Win98!!! ;-D OK. Now having gotten that out of my system, I am truly sorry that part of what I said bothered you all week. Honestly!!! I'd hate to be walking around for a week with something nagging at me like that. So, I'm responding right after having read your message so that *I* won't be going around for a week being bothered by the fact that part of what I wrote bothered you for a week. ;-D > I disagree, however, with the implication that a person who is new in >this field should turn down jobs that pay low. In any field, a >businessperson who is just starting out needs a edge - a person with no >professional indexing experience does not have any advantage over a >person with years of indexing experience - except in the price she is >willing to accept. > Every publisher I have called who pays $3 per page says they have a >long list of indexers already. The publishers who pay less than that >have a short list of indexers. Where do I have the better chance of >being picked? I *do* know that some beginners would find what I said to be difficult. Honestly, I do understand how you feel. And, I hope that I didn't come off as being arrogant in my "rah-rah" post. And, I sincerely hope that it didn't imply a condemnation of indexers who started out by accepting "beginners' rates". I can't tell you how sorry I am if my post gave that impression. This is definitely not about criticizing indexers for doing what they feel they have (or had) to do to get started. Please accept my deepest apologies if that is how it made you feel. I was hoping that the tactics I suggested in my post would help beginners get past the problem of not yet having done an index for pay and enable them to get projects at "standard" rates. By that, I mean how to handle the whole marketing pitch so that the subject of prior experience (the lack thereof) wouldn't come up. Or, that by the time it came up, the prospect was already impressed by the sample index you sent them and it didn't matter. However, after I posted that message, I had this nagging feeling that I was describing tactics that worked for me, but that I should have also said that there was no guarantee these tactics would work in every situation. For one thing, they may have required a level of downright brashness that everyone may not be comfortable with. ;-D So, without backing down from my original diatribe about "beginner's rates", I'll take a different tack. One thing that also helps in getting started is being referred by another indexer who is overloaded at the time. Potential clients are less likely to ask for *The Resume* when they are calling you as a result of a referral from another indexer. (I said in my original post that I hate resumes, but am waiting for that whole thing to come up again as it does here at least annually. ;-D) OK, so then the issue is how to get referrals from other indexers. And that is to become active in your local chapter of ASI (or whichever national indexing society you belong to if you're not in the U.S.). Sometimes chapters have sessions where the attendees create sample indexes from the same text and discuss them. This is one way that experienced fellow chapter members can get an idea of your skill. I don't recommend overtly marketing to them because skillful networking does not include the hard sell. I've heard networking defined as "relationship marketing", a concept I strongly agree with. Forming warm, *sincere* relationships with your fellow indexers is important to gaining their trust in your proficiency and professionalism--essential to getting referrals. (I strongly recommend that indexers who are just starting out attend a workshop on networking or read books on the topic. I can't stress how much that helped me in getting started.) Opportunities are very likely to come up where you can show a sample of your work to other indexers without being "pushy" about it. (By "you", I don't mean you personally, Susan, because it sounds as if you've been indexing for a while now.) Now, here's an example of how it could work out. When I had my first heart attack, I was in the middle of an index. (I was also in the middle of an index when I had my second one, but it didn't work out for the purposes of this example. ;-D) Anyway, I frantically called a fellow chapter member (who hadn't done an index for pay yet) and asked her to help me finish the index and told her I would pay her half. Now, I hadn't yet seen her work, but because I knew her well from chatting with her at local chapter meetings, I truly trusted her as a competent professional and as a good friend. (This kind of thing is part of what I meant by relationship marketing or networking. It's not traditional marketing at all.) So, I did half of the index in the CCU and she did the other half, visiting me frequently in the hospital to consult. (We were even consulting all the way to the door of the cardiac cath lab where they were wheeling me for an angioplasty. ;-D) When I got out of the hospital, she and I worked together to mesh our two halves of the index together which gave me a great opportunity to see the quality of her work. (Yes, Virginia, you can mesh a Cindex index with a Macrex index and survive.) It so happened that she was here in my home office when another client called me to do an index. I had to turn down the index, but was able to put her on the phone directly with the client. Thus, she got that all-important opportunity to do her first index for payment (aside from the one I paid her directly for her half of the work). If I remember correctly, she got further indexing projects from my client (a big publisher with plenty of work to go around). Anyway, she was now in business, building up a bibliography of indexes to show potential clients if needed and she does have other clients now. (I'm really glad that *something* good came out of that heart attack for a friend! :-D) The whole gist of this is that opportunities can and do arise if a new indexer networks with other indexers. While I hope it's not on the dramatic scale of an indexer having a heart attack and needing help , situations frequently arise that present opportunities for new indexers to become established. When receiving a project via a referral, the client has always paid the same as s/he would have paid the referring indexer. This has been my experience on being on both ends of the referral situation (i.e., getting or giving a referral). So, again, we get around the whole thing of "beginners' rates". > If I held out for only $3 per page indexes the number of >professional indexes I would have done would be zero. None. The null set. > As it stands, however (by swallowing some pride and initial >indignation), I accepted lower wages and got jobs. Quite a few, >actually. I work hard on my indexes and (invoking some of Lynn's >chutzpa) I do a good job. They are getting a bargain. And they know it >- so they call me often. And, I'm truly glad that you are working!!!! I mean that! > And what do I get? I GET PAID FOR INDEXING! I also get tremendous >experience, a resume that is getting too long for one page, some >encouraging feedback, and an awful lot of (possibly useful) trivia from >reading books that are, for the most part, pretty interesting (well, I'll >give you that "New Uses for the Poisson Distribution" was not a high >point). How about the trivia I learned from indexing: that there are two types of earwax? While the huge majority of folks have the sticky yellow kind, some folks in Northern China have a gray powdery kind. ;-D > But don't think I don't mutter to myself about my lot of low wages >and long hours. I don't intend for my career to remain where it is price >wise. I periodically send updated resumes to previous contacts and make >marketing calls whenever I get a chance. Other editors and production >managers do not know what I am getting paid now, and when the subject of >rates comes up I quote a range much higher than what I'm getting now. >Once those higher paying jobs start coming in, I can wean myself of the >low paying jobs. (And when my current clients start noticing that I have >moved on to higher paying jobs, they might be able to convince the >Exulted Rate Setter at their publishing house that a good indexer is >worth paying more for.) Susan, I am truly rooting for you! It will work out for you, though it is more likely that you'll increase your income by getting higher-paying jobs than by getting the low-paying clients to increase what they pay you. Some clients insist that they never pay indexers higher than their abysmally low rate and you're unable to nudge them upward, regardless of the amount of experience you have. OTOH, I had one potential client who said they only paid $2.65/page. I flat out replied that I don't work for less than $3/page, but would do the project for a flat rate of $1000 (which came out to more than $3/page) and they agreed to that price!!!!! (Apparently, they didn't do the math during our negotiations. ;-D) After that, I worked for $3/page on all their projects for several years, though the editor told me that management grumbled about having to pay me so much!!!!!! ($3/page is something to grumble over?????) So, sometimes you *can* nudge them upward an eentsy bit. I'm wishing you the best on this. > A doctor starting her own practice doesn't charge "beginner rates" >because she has years of schooling and internships during which she >learned her profession. How much did she get paid as an intern? Not >very much, despite being a degreed Doctor. I see where you're coming from. However, when a doctor is an intern, they're not out in private practice, but are on the low-end of the food chain in a hospital. IOW, they're not in business for themselves at that point. We're talking about actually starting out in business. > So, my advice to beginning indexers is: take whatever jobs you can >get, and do your best work on each one, no matter what the pay. They >will notice, and your professional reputation will benefit well from it. > > End of rant. Oh dear! ;-D I do wholeheartedly agree with doing your best work on each project. But perhaps if beginning indexers tried actively networking in the indexing community, they may be able to avoid that whole thing of working for low-paying publishers altogether. I do hope that the day will eventually come when the low-paying publishers (excepting nonprofits who simply can't afford to pay a decent rate) won't be able to find indexers who will work for those abysmal rates. That seems to be the only solution that will benefit all of us. Well, even if you still disagree with me (and that's OK), I hope you feel better now. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:49:55 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810292353.PAA24409@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 10:51 10/30/98 +1100, Jonathan wrote: >One reason for charging beginners' rates, where hourly payment is concerned, >is that beginners often work more slowly than experienced indexers. As a >publisher I may get an equally good index from A and B, but A takes twenty >hours to do it while B takes ten. Obviously if A wants the work then (until >she speeds up) she's going to have to quote less than half of B's hourly >rate. > Hi Jonathan, To be totally honest with you, when I posted the message starting all of this, I wasn't even thinking about hourly rates, but solely of per page rates. ;-D I don't think that the client should be penalized by having to pay a beginner for additional hours. That's why I'm in favor of per page rates or per entry rates as being the fairest to the client. Also, as someone else stated here, hourly rates penalize the experienced indexer who may be able to crank 20 pages/hour (which is possible on some computer topics that you've indexed umpteen times). OTOH, I would have loved an hourly rate when I embedded an index in a Framemaker+ SGML document. Don't try this at home, boys and girls. >I've commented elsewhere about the dodgy assumption underlying recommended >hourly rates - that everyone produces the same amount of work in the same >time. In indexing, at least, this is demonstrably untrue. > Indeed! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:11:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Beginners' rates In-Reply-To: <199810300105.RAA25519@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 20:01 10/29/98 EST, Do Mi wrote: >Nicholas wrote: > ><< Per page rates are solely in the interest of the publisher. Neither the >experience of the indexer nor the nature of the subject matter is taken into >account. Such rates are not much different from the piece work that used to >characterize factory > operations. >> > >I disagree! Per page rates make it possible to work at my fast rate and not >end up earning less money. They also make it possible for me to earn more per >hour than publishers would (I assume) be willing to pay me straight out--which >enables me to earn a decent living, taking overhead and self-employment taxes >into account. Per page rates, which do take the nature and complexity of the >book into account, make the speed at which I do the job my own business. > Hi Do Mi, Yes, yesss, yessssss!!!!!!! I've indexed some books where, because I've indexed the same topic for who knows how many books, I've cranked merrily along at 20-30 pages/hour. Now, try asking a publisher for $60-90/hour. Hah!!! But should you be penalized financially because you happen to be able to produce a quality index to a book so fast that it's one of your One-Day Wonders (as I call them)? Of course, there are the other tomes where you end up making $.50 to $1.00 because you're typing in a hideous mess of chemical terms with forced sorting strings, mega-formatting of super/subscripts and italics, APA codes, etc. (When I submitted one of those indexes, the editor told me it gave him a headache just to look at it. ;-D) Or you get a book that's so poorly organized and muddled conceptually that you plod along at 5 pages/hr (even from the same clients that send you One-Day-Wonder texts). Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:43:24 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Daniel A. Connolly" Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Search Engine Techonology Do you ever get caught in one of those "discovery" modes where you fell like you have a lot of information to share with others? I'm in one of those modes now. I'd like to refer everyone to an interesting article in yesterday's (Thursday) Boston Globe. It was in the Communications Special Section and was entitled "A search engine that uses linguistic analysis to cut to the chase." The writer was Bob Weinstein. It was not on the Globes's web site, so you'll have to get the actual paper at your library, but it is well worth the effort. Let me quote a few relevant passages: "Developing the software wa a tedious and exhausting process because the partners had to mimic every aspect of human linguistic reasoning. But it was worth the effort because the software has enough data--including vocabulary, grammar and world knowledge--to interpret Time magazine." "Radical? You bet, because the program is the closest thing to artificial intelligence, or AI, on the market." "InQuizit is unusueal because it actually analyzes language according to linguistic principles. From a linguistic standpoint, it is the most sophisticated program of its kind. The other programs try engineering tricks, but they don't draw on what we know about the structure of human language." "Ask a typical search engine what the stock market's high and low was for a specific day and you're asking for trouble. Be prepared for everything relating to the word "market," which could mean virtually any kind of market and "stock" which could be livestock or "stock" meaning inventory or shares of stock. "InQuizit interprets 'high' with high value and 'stock' means certificate of ownership as opposed to a kind of cow," she says. "And a 'market' means the place where it sells those things, not a 'market' where you go to buy food or other products." "Next month, InQuizit will be hoisting a sprawling web site for Bible.com, an opportunity to put InQuizit through its paces." Just thought you'd like to know. Dan -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Beginners' rates Lynn wrote: > Yes, yesss, yessssss!!!!!!! I've indexed some books where, because I've > indexed the same topic for who knows how many books, I've cranked merrily > along at 20-30 pages/hour. Now, try asking a publisher for $60-90/hour. > Hah!!! But should you be penalized financially because you happen to be > able to produce a quality index to a book so fast that it's one of your > One-Day Wonders (as I call them)? > > Of course, there are the other tomes where you end up making $.50 to $1.00 > because you're typing in a hideous mess of chemical terms with forced > sorting strings, mega-formatting of super/subscripts and italics, APA > codes, etc. (When I submitted one of those indexes, the editor told me it > gave him a headache just to look at it. ;-D) Or you get a book that's so > poorly organized and muddled conceptually that you plod along at 5 pages/hr > (even from the same clients that send you One-Day-Wonder texts). Per page rates do vary according to the type of material, and that is reasonable. There is no reason for a publisher to pay me $3.00/page for indexing a children's book with *at most* 4 paragraphs on a page, and usually less than half that: a book with an average of 2-3 entries per page. I can whiz through one of those in short order, I enjoy them as a break from scholarly indexing, and I can usually squeeze one in on top of another project. Though the per-page rate is quite a bit less than the rates I charge for trade or scholarly indexing, the hourly rate is probably as good or better. When I was just starting out, In my ignorance I lost a potential client by quoting a rate that was far too high for the type of material they produced. It takes some experience to recognize how much time and effort a project is going to take you, and to determine whether a publisher's "standard rate" is in fact reasonable, generous, or outrageously low. What appears outrageously low may be reasonable given the low density and relative ease of the text. I'm learning to have a potential client send me a few sample pages before I negotiate a rate. As a beginner, though, I didn't have the experience to make a judgement based on sample pages -- and I knew that my lack of experience would also require far more time than the same project would require in a few years. So I took jobs at rates that were lower than I wanted, but not unacceptably low *to me*. In retrospect, those per-page rates were not outrageously low, just a little lower than what I now charge. My hourly rate for those early projects was abysmal...but I got valuable experience in indexing, dealing with publishers, and rate-setting, and just-as-valuable titles to add to my project list. That said, I entirely agree with Lynn's other post about networking. Networking works: I was referred to my most valued client by my mentor. But given that some chapters meet only 4 or 5 times a year, and some indexers' circumstances don't allow them to attend all meetings, I think beginners should also contact publishers directly. Lynn's comments about how to deal with publishers without the dreaded lack of experience rearing its head (discussed in her first post on this subject, the one that kicked off all this debate!) were very helpful in that regard. By combining networking with direct marketing, you increase your chances of "breaking in," -- getting that important first job. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services 8112 Harrison Dr. King George, VA 22485 (540) 775-4072 jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:55:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology I visited the InQuizit web site several months ago and sent email asking whether they had considered developing an "automatic" indexing product based on the InQuizit technology. I received a very pleasant response stating that nothing of that sort had been considered as yet, but that they would be willing to work with someone to pursue such a product. I know that even mentioning the concept of an "automatic" indexing program is sacrilege here (and as one of the few owners of Indexicon, I can understand why). However, from what I've seen of InQuizit, it holds some promise as the basis of perhaps a "first-pass" indexing tool. John Sullivan Stratus Computer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:47:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: ASI Call for 1999 Nominations Hello all ASI members, Please take a look at the ASI website at http://www.ASIndexing.org for information on the 1999 ASI board elections. Once you are in the site, click on News, and then go to Nominations.... Cynthia D. Bertelsen Chair, Nominations Committee, 1999 elections ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:06:45 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: An accolade I just want to take this opportunity to say that I think that Lynn Moncrief is one classy lady. Toni Clark Williams The Procyon Group Documentation Department ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:27:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology In-Reply-To: <199811061457.GAA03136@ixmail6.ix.netcom.com> Do you have the URL for InQuizit or is it just the company name.com ? Linda Sloan At 09:55 AM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote: > I visited the InQuizit web site several months ago and sent email >asking whether they had considered developing an "automatic" indexing >product based on the InQuizit technology. I received a very pleasant >response stating that nothing of that sort had been considered as yet, but >that they would be willing to work with someone to pursue such a product. > > I know that even mentioning the concept of an "automatic" indexing >program is sacrilege here (and as one of the few owners of Indexicon, I can >understand why). However, from what I've seen of InQuizit, it holds some >promise as the basis of perhaps a "first-pass" indexing tool. > > John Sullivan > Stratus Computer > > Linda Kenny Sloan indexer@ix.netcom.com ******************************************* Information Universe Editorial services for the aerospace and astronomy communities http://informationuniverse.com ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:27:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology http://www.inquizit.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda Sloan [SMTP:indexer@IX.NETCOM.COM] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:27 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology > > Do you have the URL for InQuizit or is it just the company name.com ? > Linda Sloan > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:50:46 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology About the following quotes from someone at InQuizIt: > > "InQuizit is unusual because it actually analyzes language according > to linguistic principles. From a linguistic standpoint, it is the most > sophisticated program of its kind. The other programs try engineering > tricks, but they don't draw on what we know about the structure of > human language." But they're all software, and software performs the instructions that are encoded within it (sometimes unintentionally!) and nothing more. The speaker is merely saying, "Our search engine is better than the others because we wrote better code." Perhaps so, but software is still a long way from the human brain in its ability to interpret words in context to determine meaning. > "InQuizit interprets 'high' with high value and 'stock' means > certificate of ownership as opposed to a kind of cow," she says. > "And a 'market' means the place where it sells those things, not a > 'market' where you go to buy food or other products." It should be interesting to see how it handles a question about "the place where live stock is sold." Sure, I'm showing my bias (and preaching to the choir!), but I'd rather have a real index, made by a real human, than a search engine. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! (http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/) See our web site to download HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology David wrote: >Sure, I'm showing my bias (and preaching to the choir!), but I'd rather >have a real index, made by a real human, than a search engine. It wasn't my intention to start a "Human versus Machine" battle (on this list, the machines are going to lose every time!). My point is simply that we should keep an open mind about the possibility of developing software tools for automatic creation of simple indexes. Right now, an Indexicon-generated index is worse than no index at all; in the future, an InQuizit-generated index might be adequate for certain applications. John Sullivan > -----Original Message----- > From: David M. Brown [SMTP:dmbrown@brown-inc.com] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:51 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology > > About the following quotes from someone at InQuizIt: > > > > "InQuizit is unusual because it actually analyzes language according > > to linguistic principles. From a linguistic standpoint, it is the most > > sophisticated program of its kind. The other programs try engineering > > tricks, but they don't draw on what we know about the structure of > > human language." > > But they're all software, and software performs the instructions that > are encoded within it (sometimes unintentionally!) and nothing more. > > The speaker is merely saying, "Our search engine is better than the > others because we wrote better code." Perhaps so, but software is still > a long way from the human brain in its ability to interpret words in > context to determine meaning. > > > "InQuizit interprets 'high' with high value and 'stock' means > > certificate of ownership as opposed to a kind of cow," she says. > > "And a 'market' means the place where it sells those things, not a > > 'market' where you go to buy food or other products." > > It should be interesting to see how it handles a question about "the > place where live stock is sold." > > Sure, I'm showing my bias (and preaching to the choir!), but I'd rather > have a real index, made by a real human, than a search engine. > > --David > > ============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > ============================= > > N O W A V A I L A B L E ! (http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/) > > See our web site to download HTML Indexer, the easiest way to > create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: Yugoslavia In-Reply-To: <199811060037.TAA25741@shooter.bluemarble.net> Answer: it depends. Some (Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, etc) are independent states and mainly republics (much more accurately described in English as republics than was appropriate for constituent parts of Yugoslavia, or the USSR, under communism). Serbia, where the leaders and most of the people seem to have not the slightest interest in democracy, has annexed another former "republic" and rules it under the name of Yugoslavia (the Western media if they acknowledge it at all usually call this the rump state of Yugoslavia). It has also gobbled up without the slightest consent of the people there the Kosovo Autonomous Region, claiming it to be part of not just Yugoslavia but of Serbia itself, which has not been the case for centuries. As is often the case in indexing, you should know enough about the subject to properly frame the question, then ask (if it is not obvious in the book) what perspective is appropriate. Marvant Duhon On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Christine Headley wrote: > >From Christine Headley > Are the constituent parts of the erstwhile Yugoslavia, former Republics, > Former Republics, Republics, or a mixture? The au has the latter and I > don't know whether to go for consistency in the index. > TIA > Christine > > Stroud, Glos > crossposted to Copyediting-L > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:23:10 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology Sullivan, John wrote: > > It wasn't my intention to start a "Human versus Machine" battle. ... > My point is simply that we should keep an open mind about the > possibility of developing software tools for automatic creation > of simple indexes. Oh, I didn't take your comments as at all inflammatory, nor did I intend mine to be. I just bristle when some marketer says "our is better because we say so." I've been hearing about AI since my first Prolog class in '84, and it still seems more toy than tool, at least in non-gaming applications. As a programmer, I have fun with software that gives the appearance of intelligence. As a user, I'm frustrated by the "natural-language " that gets thrown onto the market from time to time. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! (http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/) See our web site to download HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:47:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Article: History of Indexing The newest issue of _18th Century Life_ (May 1998 but just mailed) includes an excellent article: "The Eel of Science: Index Learning, Scriblerian Satire, and the Rise of Information Culture" by Roger D. Lund. It points out: "Between 1700 and 1800 more than ll00 titles advertised the presence of an index as both a new and a peculiarly desirable feature. Prior to the eighteenth century a number of works had been published with "Alphabetical Tables" of various kinds, but the systematic indexing of learned works hadn't been all that frequent." The articles deals with satires on indexing by Pope, Gay, and others. Satires in some cases seem to be motivated by nostalgia for a world in which learning was hard work. (An index evidently opens the doors of learning to the lazy.) In other cases, satirists enjoy parodying weak indexes, listing random terms in alphabetical order: "A sampling of items from the index to _A Journey to London_ includes, in order, Snails, Soups, Squares, St. James's,&c, Statues, Steenkirks, Sticklebacks, Streets lighted, ___clean, Syllabubs, Mrs. Prices's, Tadpoles, Tea, Tennis-balls, Turnips. . . ." "Such indexes," says Professor Lund, "reveal a world that has suddenly been overrun with insignificant detail." The start of the Information Age, and the beginning of our profession. I recommend this article to members of the List. Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:11:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: company names as examples Hi all. I've been mostly doing editing lately, so I haven't kept up with INDEX-L, but here I am, back in the saddle. I am doing a textbook on marketing. I've done a ton of them in the past, but it's been a while. I'm encountering constant references of 2 lines or so to various companies. These are small examples of this and that. Would you include them in the index? I am inclined not to. I've only been including companies that are actually discussed. But I thought I'd better double check. After all, once I start second guessing myself, who knows where I'll go!!!!! Thanks Leslie Frank Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:29:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: company names as examples << I am doing a textbook on marketing. I'm encountering constant references of 2 lines or so to various companies. These are small examples of this and that. Would you include them in the index? I am inclined not to. I've only been including companies that are actually discussed. >> Leslie, this is a judgement call, and sometimes is the kind of thing I run by my editor. If they don't have an opinion and you don't have a space limit, I might put them in--they're so closely related to the marketing topic (as towns, for instance, wouldn't be--see what I mean) that there's an added reason for including them even though it could be argued that they're just examples. And since they are examples, there's a good argument for leaving them out if you don't have space! Do Mi, revelling in ambivalence... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:56:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: company names as examples Leslie: I only include company names in my index if my clients request me to do so. Otherwise, the names stay out -- unless the company comes up in a case study. Rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:11:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology -----Original Message----- From: Sullivan, John To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology > I visited the InQuizit web site several months ago and sent email >asking whether they had considered developing an "automatic" indexing >product based on the InQuizit technology. I received a very pleasant >response stating that nothing of that sort had been considered as yet, but >that they would be willing to work with someone to pursue such a product. > > I know that even mentioning the concept of an "automatic" indexing >program is sacrilege here (and as one of the few owners of Indexicon, I can >understand why). However, from what I've seen of InQuizit, it holds some >promise as the basis of perhaps a "first-pass" indexing tool. > > John Sullivan > Stratus Computer Yes, someday perhaps an automatic indexing tool will be developed. It will be just good enough to be utilized by penny-pinchers who put little importance on quality and only look at the bottom-line (and not the even the bottom-line in the long run). Having indexed detailed material on artificial intelligence, I can tell you that time and research will never recreate the human mind. It will also never create at truly useful index. Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:22:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: search engines This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01BE09AA.146B01C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: David M. Brown To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L = Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology >About the following quotes from someone at InQuizIt: >> >> "InQuizit is unusual because it actually analyzes language according >> to linguistic principles. From a linguistic standpoint, it is the = most >> sophisticated program of its kind. The other programs try engineering >> tricks, but they don't draw on what we know about the structure of >> human language." > >But they're all software, and software performs the instructions that >are encoded within it (sometimes unintentionally!) and nothing more. > >The speaker is merely saying, "Our search engine is better than the >others because we wrote better code." Perhaps so, but software is = still >a long way from the human brain in its ability to interpret words in >context to determine meaning. > >> "InQuizit interprets 'high' with high value and 'stock' means >> certificate of ownership as opposed to a kind of cow," she says. >> "And a 'market' means the place where it sells those things, not a >> 'market' where you go to buy food or other products." > >It should be interesting to see how it handles a question about "the >place where live stock is sold." > >Sure, I'm showing my bias (and preaching to the choir!), but I'd rather >have a real index, made by a real human, than a search engine. > >--David > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D And David Brown (who wrote the above) is a programmer! So it is not = just indexers who are recognizing the superiority of human-created = indexes...this is coming straight from the horse's mouth. -Sorry David, don't mean to = call you a horse :-) ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01BE09AA.146B01C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-----Original Message-----
From: David M. Brown <dmbrown@brown-inc.com>
To= :=20 Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BING= HAMTON.EDU>
Date:=20 Friday, November 06, 1998 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Search Engine=20 Techonology


>About the following quotes from someone at=20 InQuizIt:
>>
>> "InQuizit is unusual because it = actually=20 analyzes language according
>> to linguistic principles. From a = linguistic standpoint, it is the most
>> sophisticated program = of its=20 kind. The other programs try engineering
>> tricks, but they = don't draw=20 on what we know about the structure of
>> human=20 language."
>
>But they're all software, and software = performs=20 the instructions that
>are encoded within it (sometimes = unintentionally!)=20 and nothing more.
>
>The speaker is merely saying, "Our = search=20 engine is better than the
>others because we wrote better=20 code."  Perhaps so, but software is still
>a long way = from the=20 human brain in its ability to interpret words in
>context to = determine=20 meaning.
>
>> "InQuizit interprets 'high' with high = value=20 and 'stock' means
>> certificate of ownership as opposed to a = kind of=20 cow," she says.
>> "And a 'market' means the place = where it=20 sells those things, not a
>> 'market' where you go to buy food = or other=20 products."
>
>It should be interesting to see how it = handles a=20 question about "the
>place where live stock is=20 sold."
>
>Sure, I'm showing my bias (and preaching to = the=20 choir!), but I'd rather
>have a real index, made by a real human, = than a=20 search engine.
>
>--David
>
>=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
>  David M. Brown - Brown=20 Inc.
>     dmbrown@brown-inc.com
>=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D


And David Brown (who wrote the above)=20 is a programmer!  So it is not just
indexers who are recognizing = the=20 superiority of human-created indexes...this
is coming straight from = the=20 horse's mouth. -Sorry David, don't mean to call
you a horse=20 :-)
------=_NextPart_000_005F_01BE09AA.146B01C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology >It wasn't my intention to start a "Human versus Machine" battle (on this >list, the machines are going to lose every time!). My point is simply that >we should keep an open mind about the possibility of developing software >tools for automatic creation of simple indexes. Right now, an >Indexicon-generated index is worse than no index at all; in the future, an >InQuizit-generated index might be adequate for certain applications. > >John Sullivan Well, let's analyze this then. What type of applications? Product lists? Sure, I believe that. But are we talking about a genuine index with cross-refs, interrealtionships, inclusion of implied (though not directly stated) concepts..etc? How, for example, would the program recognize the definition of a word on a page if the word were defined but the term "definition" was never used? Surely the subentry "definition of" belongs under the main heading for this topic. Kevin A. Broccoli Broccoli Information Management ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:40:51 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Horse's Mouth Kevin wrote: >And David Brown (who wrote the above) is a programmer! So it is not just >indexers who are recognizing the superiority of human-created indexes...this >is coming straight from the horse's mouth. -Sorry David, don't mean to call >you a horse : ) Be comforted, David, at least Kevin placed you at the proper end of the horse! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:06:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: company names as examples It all depends on several factors: a) Is there a separate company name index (fairly common in this field)? If so, always add the company name. Unless, of course, the name is fictional, which is also fairly common in examples (Smith-Brown-Jones Widgets Inc.) You might consider discussing separate company name indexes with the editor or author -- sometimes this will "clean up" an index heavy with name mentions and make it easier to locate the subject entries. b) Does the reference to a particular company provide factual information? If the reference is "companies such as IBM, UPS, and USX...." do not include them. If the reference is something like "USX offered early retirement options to 500 management-level personnel in late 1998 because..." then include them. c) What is the preference of the author or publisher? I've had some that want every company name in, whether it will annoy the reader or not, and I've had others who want only "substantive discussion" indexed. Whee. d) How much room is there? Sandy Topping "No matter where you go, there you are." (Buckaroo Banzai) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:08:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: company names as examples (addendum) Another reason for including them (perhaps coded for later removal, if necessary) is that a company given a 2-line mention on page 103 may have a 2-page discussion on page 703, making you want to go back and find those forgotten 2 lines. It's always easier to cut hair than to grow it. Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:28:48 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: company names as examples I vote for asking the editor about adding company names. I index Congressional Quarterly's Weekly. As a matter of course I neglected company names because, naively, I thought the references were peripheral to the main topic, legislation. It took me a year and a half to realize the importance of commerce in lawmaking. Also, company executives buy the magazine and have a right to know how they are represented. Now I consider every mention and only weed out passing references. In short, ask the editor about your audience. If names of companies matter to the readership, add them. If not, don't glug up the index. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:43:50 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Horse's Mouth Bob wrote: > > Be comforted, David, at least Kevin placed you at the proper end > of the horse! Yes, indeed--and I've fared worse in discussions on this list! ;) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! (http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/) See our web site to download HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:35:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: company names as examples Here's my practice: I include all company references used as illustrative examples of business/marketing concepts unless I'm told otherwise. A related issue is what to do with the names of companies when the emphasis is on a statement made by the owner. This might read "Joe Smith of Smith's Consulting Associates has found that yada yada yada". Here the "potential indexable" as I see it would be Smith, Joe and not Smith's Consulting Associates since the emphasis is on his point of view versus what his company does. I will often include the names if the situation warrants (enough room, no explicit instructions _not_ to include names) but never the company names in these situations. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:05:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Search Engine Techonology In-Reply-To: <199811062213.OAA01973@decibel.electriciti.com> The problem I see with "first pass" automatic indexing is that it takes inordinate time and a great deal of effort to go into exteremely complicated coded files and edit material into usable indexes. To me, from what I have seen and heard predicted, going back to handwritten index cards would be easier. At times, I would appreciate a machine-generated concordance for entry into Cindex for a few necessary terms/materials. But, generally I feel as if: If it ain't broke, why fix it? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:28:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: AOL attaching In the past, my Cindex 6.1-generated attachments for Quark (.xtg) have transmitted like a charm to a service bureau using a local ISP and have never successfully been transmitted to a service bureau using AOL. The first bureau is switch to AOL. Do others have experience with sending xtg files as attachments through AOL. The files have worked best with the non-AOL folks when sent as BinHex. Is there a way for a Eudora user to tweak attachments to get them through AOL (I know it will be slow, but that can't be helped.) Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: Editor woes I am indexing a one volume encyclopedia of cities. The editor would like the index to be as comprehensive as possible-- which will make the index quite redundant. The book is approx. 700 pages. Each city listed includes 4-5 pages with the following headings: location population and demography history government and politics economy transportation health care education housing culture, the arts, and entertainment map table (of the above categories) Here is the dilema. I find it silly to index each city as a heading and use the above entries as subheadings. This is the outlay of the book, mentioned in the introduction, and is very clear to the users. Furthermore, (and this is just one example) the education category in the book includes literacy rates. The editor would like me to include this in the index. So, I will have a heading literacy rates and then approx. 150 entries under this (there are 150 cities). Is this silly?? I feel like making an index for the editor and then an index as how I think it should be. I have looked at similar encyclopedias. One out of five had an index. The index included names of people and well know events. --Ilana P.S. Anne Norcross...I tried emailing you, but did not have your correct address. Everything worked out fine. ***************************************** * Kingsley Indexing Services * * 125 Olive Branch Church Road * * Roxboro, NC 27573 * * inewby@beryl.ils.unc.edu * * http://www.prairienet.org/~inewby * * (336) 597-5380 * ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: AOL attaching In-Reply-To: <199811071532.KAA02113@ulster.net> >Do others have experience with sending xtg files as attachments through >AOL. The files have worked best with the non-AOL folks when sent as BinHex. > >Is there a way for a Eudora user to tweak attachments to get them through >AOL (I know it will be slow, but that can't be helped.) All sorts of files have trouble going from the net to aol. the way I deal with this is to keep the $4.95/month cheapest aol account and use it to send files to any clients silly enough to use aol. And I keep aol set to TCP Connection so I don't have to deal with its busy phone lines. Just sign on my ISP and then open aol and sign on. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:08:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Beginner rates, revisited HI Lynn, Thanks for your response! I didn't lose (too much :D) sleep over the issue! I also appreciate the networking advice - I think the people in my chapter are interested in this, but we're a little handicapped by geography - we're fairly spread out. I also appreciate the negotiating advice from you and others. I notice that the more dead end phone calls I make the more brash I get (though still working on it!) - now I ask for ball park rates before I send a follow-up letter, and I'm starting to ask how publishers who say they don't use indexers manage to get indexes done (one answer - the editors do them - another explanation for sub par indexes) in the hopes I might convince them to give a professional a chance. I do engineering and scientific indexes (I noticed in your signature block that that's what you do) and it helps to know what I should be getting - you, and others, have shown me that a better rate is not an absurd thing to require. You've probably "been there, done that," but, here's the number for Microsoft's Windows 98 technical support line: (425) 635-7222. (Of course, it's not toll free - how else would Bill Gates build his high tech mansion!) - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:13:02 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: AOL attaching In-Reply-To: <199811071529.HAA07830@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 07:28 11/7/98 -0800, Pam wrote: >Do others have experience with sending xtg files as attachments through >AOL. The files have worked best with the non-AOL folks when sent as BinHex. Hi Pam, I've never dealt with xtg files, so my comments have to be sort of general. I think that BinHex encoding works best if the recipient is on a Mac. If the recipient is on a PC platform, you may want to use UUENCODE to encode your attachments. (The recipient must have either the DOS-based UUDECODE or Wincode--the Windows version of both--to decode it.) It shouldn't matter that the recipient is on AOL when you use either form of coding because both encoding techniques convert the file to pure ASCII. And even cranky AOL (my former ISP) can handle ASCII file attachments. ;-D >Is there a way for a Eudora user to tweak attachments to get them through >AOL (I know it will be slow, but that can't be helped.) If you convert the file first to either the BinHex or UUENCODE formats, you shouldn't have any problem attaching it and sending it using Eudora. Anyway, the slowness will mostly be on the AOL user's end when they go to download it, IMHO, rather than yours unless the file is humongous. BTW, some service bureaus have FTP sites because they receive so much material electronically. If you can FTP the file to them rather than sending it as an email attachment, you can totally get around the whole encoding thing, plus the file transfer is a lot faster. It is *so* much better that I've made it a habit to ask every single client or service bureau when I have to transfer files to (or from) them if they have an FTP site. Sometimes your contact will have to ask around and have their server guru set things up so you'd have access, but it's worth it. Trust me on this. When a client emailed me several MEGABYTES of file attachments without warning, I really pushed and pushed until I was given access to their FTP site. A great shareware program for FTPing stuff is CuteFTP. And CuteFTP lets you keep track of all the stuff you need to know and do for each FTP site you use. (IOW, once you've entered everything into CuteFTP and tell it to save it, all you have to do is select a particular site's name and it will do everything necessary to connect you to it and log you in, provided you've already dialed into your ISP.) CuteFTP is probably available on that mega-shareware site at http://www.winfiles.com. HTH, Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:44:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: An accolade In-Reply-To: <199811061605.IAA05562@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 08:06 11/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >I just want to take this opportunity to say that I think that Lynn Moncrief >is one classy lady. > >Toni Clark Williams >The Procyon Group >Documentation Department > Hi Toni, Ooooooooo!!!! Geeeeeee!!! Thanks!!!!!!! :-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:56:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Editor woes In-Reply-To: <199811071916.LAA23949@decibel.electriciti.com> At 02:08 PM 11/7/98 -0500, as I understand, Ilana's editor is looking for entries such as San Diego: location, 4 >population and demography, 4 >history, 4 >government and politics, 4-5 >economy, 5 >transportation, 5 >health care, 5 >education, 5 >housing, 5-6 >culture, the arts, and entertainment, 6 >map, 6 >table (of the above categories) > >Here is the dilema. I find it silly to index each city as a heading and >use the above entries as subheadings. I agree >book includes literacy rates. The editor would like me to include this in >the index. So, I will have a heading literacy rates and then approx. 150 >entries under this (there are 150 cities). Is this silly?? Absolutely not. If I'm thinking of moving to a city, I want some indication of the quality of the educational system. My index would have categories, with city listings as subs--only >I feel like making an index for the editor and then an index as how I >think it should be. > I feel for you. I was once told to do an index of a dictionary and use only the dictionary's alphabetic headings, the index would have been like: Apples, 1 Bananas, 2 Carrots, 3 and so on. Fortunately, folks realized an index--at least in that format--was not needed. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:19:57 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Yugoslavia In the interest of historical accuracy (I don't have any axes to grind in this matter) and defining of terms, one should note the present day country of Yugoslavia is the remnant of the post World War II republic and consists of the remaining two republics Montenegro and Serbia. Serbia did annex Montenegro but that happened at the end of World War I when both were kingdoms, not republics. Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia formerly were part of Yugoslavia but are now recognized as independent republics. Under the post World War II regime, Kosovo was organized as Autonomous Region within Serbia. That autonomy was abolished by the Serbian government a few years ago. The area of Kosovo belonged to Serbia since the reemergence of Serbia as an independent country in the last century. Before then it, like the rest of Serbia, was part of the Ottoman Empire. I would call the present day Yugoslavia a federal republic consisting of the two republics of Serbia and Montenegro. LH Feldman -------------------------------------------------------- Marvant Duhon wrote: Serbia, where the leaders and most of the people seem to have not the slightest interest in democracy, has annexed another former "republic" and rules it under the name of Yugoslavia (the Western media if they acknowledge it at all usually call this the rump state of Yugoslavia). It has also gobbled up without the slightest consent of the people there the Kosovo Autonomous Region, claiming it to be part of not just Yugoslavia but of Serbia itself, which has not been the case for centuries. As is often the case in indexing, you should know enough about the subject to properly frame the question, then ask (if it is not obvious in the book) what perspective is appropriate. On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Christine Headley wrote: > >From Christine Headley > Are the constituent parts of the erstwhile Yugoslavia, former Republics, > Former Republics, Republics, or a mixture? The au has the latter and I > don't know whether to go for consistency in the index. > TIA > Christine > > Stroud, Glos > crossposted to Copyediting-L > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:59:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Beginner rates, revisited In a message dated 11/5/98 10:14:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, techndex@PACBELL.NET writes: A belated response -- I dozed off during that lull earlier this week! Lynn "rants" -- ;-) (friendly snip) > I do hope that the day will > eventually come when the low-paying publishers (excepting nonprofits who > simply can't afford to pay a decent rate) won't be able to find indexers > who will work for those abysmal rates. That seems to be the only solution > that will benefit all of us. > But I bet some of them won't be using indexers at all -- they will use some sort of crummy concordance or other "shortcut". But *then* they will be getting what they are willing to pay for. I suspect most indexers (as a matter of personal pride) give those low-paying publishers more than they deserve in quality. Well, hopefully, some publishers would decide to pay more if they *had* to in order to get a decent index. I hate to admit to such a jaundiced viewpoint, but my experience has been that some folks are only interested in the price. In a lot of cases, they really can't see beyond the ends of their noses, since other factors besides price nearly always come into play. (Such as, will books with crummy indexes sell as well as those with good ones?) P.S. Reading on, I found Kevin on the same wavelength in his posting on the Search Engine Technology thread: >Yes, someday perhaps an automatic indexing tool will be developed. It will >be just good enough to be utilized by penny-pinchers who put little >importance on quality and only look at the bottom-line (and not the even the >bottom-line in the long run). Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:35:31 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: encyclopedias Ilana wrote about single-volume encyclopedia indexing, and since this has been my latest challenge, I'll talk about what I do--I would like to hear other people's experiences too. <> You're right, and you can explain to the editor that this is not helpful to the reader, since they don't need to look through a long list--they can just go to the 4-5 page entry. You should have a simple main entry for each city (unless it's mentioned elsewhere in the text). The most useful headings in the index, though, are going to be the ones in which you pick up subjects that are mentioned within the encyclopedia entries. I find this to be quite a creative process--you never know what's going to turn into an ongoing thread. Crime? Parks? Standard of living? Homelessness? Schools? << So, I will have a heading literacy rates and then approx. 150 entries under this (there are 150 cities). Is this silly??>> This is the rub--literacy rates being exactly the kind of topic I was just talking about--because you must break these down somehow if they have more than about seven page references, and there's usually no way to break them down except by the encyc. entry (city, in this case), which gives you your list of 150 subheads. I usually just go ahead and do this. Every once in a while I can group the subheads somehow (in this case, maybe by state?) But often I'm just stuck with the list. Encyclopedias do seem to turn out with lots of classification headings, more than textbooks. I've just concluded that that's the way it is. And some fairly knowledgeable editors have liked my indexes. How have other people handled these issues in encyclopedias? (Gosh, I"m tired of typing that word!) Do Mi Stauber