From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-APR-1998 14:55:21.46 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9803D" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:35:12 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9803D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:09:34 +0300 Reply-To: kharashi@kacst.edu.sa Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ibrahim Al-Kharashi Subject: unsub Dear Index-l group I have been in this list long time ago, my account was changed while I still get posting from your list. I tried to unsubscribe several times but with no success. I requested the subscriber list to check my entry there but could not find it. Please help me by removing my name from this list. My old account was aaic19@sakacs00.bitnet OR kharashi@sakacs00.bitnet -- Regards, Ibrahim A. Al-Kharashi Computer and Electronics Research Institute (CERI) King Abdulaziz City for Scinece and Technology (KACST) P. O. Box 6086, Riyadh 11442 Phone: 481-3273 Fax: 481-3274 e-mail: kharashi@kacst.edu.sa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:59:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: Re: For those who index history/literary theory >I just read a book called The Killing of History: How Literary Critics and >Social Theorists are Murdering Our Past (Windschuttle, Keith. The Free >Press, c1996, ISBN 0-684-84445-1, $25.00). For those of you non-philosophers >out there who index history (and literary theory, too) and who are trying to >make head or tail of terms and relationships in postmodernism, >poststructuralism, semiotics, cultural relativism, historical fiction and >theory of poetics, anti-humanism and discourse theory, and the whole bit, >this might be a good book to examine. I used to hate indexing books with these terms in them, but soon I realized that they are actually a breeze to do, because there's so little content. You just take all the terms, mix them up, and randomly combine them. Then you add an entry for "Vietnam War" and an entry for "Reagan, Ronald" (it doesn't matter that the book is technically about gardening practices in the High Middle Ages--these terms will find their way in somehow), and you're done! Now if I've offended anybody, I don't want to hear it. To the author of my last postmodernist book, of course I don't mean that _your_ book was anything like this. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:37:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: book titles in indexes In-Reply-To: <199803212313.SAA19510@ulster.net> > >I'd like to respectfully disagree. In this instance, in a scholarly book, I >think the book title is an appropriate index entry along with the author's >name and the subject of the argument. Scholars are continually referring to >each other and to each other's works, whereas cookbook users are usually not >so research-oriented. > But this depends on whether there's already a footnote or other citation available for the mentioned book. In that case it would be kinda redundant. And most scholoarly books are pretty good about their reference citations. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:56:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Subscribe Help I'm trying to help a former list member get resubscribed, without any luck. Here's what I've told her to do: address the message to: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.ed in the body, write: subscribe index-l don't sign the note, or put anything in the subject line. If you use software that REQUIRES a subject line, just type a single character (an asterisk will probably not cause indigestion) She's tried it exactly this way about four times, with no luck. Here's her email address, if anybody can give her better instructions. mit@phillipsfox.co.nz Drop me an off-list email, if you can see what I've done wrong, so I'll be able to give better advice in future. Thanks! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: Subscribe Help In-Reply-To: <199803230022.TAA32026@ulster.net> >I'm trying to help a former list member get resubscribed, without any luck. >Here's what I've told her to do: > >address the message to: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.ed > > in the body, write: subscribe index-l > But it should be: subscribe index-l first name last name send to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU That's what worked for me. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:03:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Subscribe Help At 03:56 PM 3/22/98 -0800, you wrote: >I'm trying to help a former list member get resubscribed, without any luck. >Here's what I've told her to do: > >address the message to: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.ed Did you really say binghamton.ed and not binghamton.edu? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:04:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Subscribe Help At 03:56 PM 3/22/98 -0800, you wrote: > in the body, write: subscribe index-l > How about: subscribe index-l {subscriber's name} Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:21:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Subscribe Help At 08:03 PM 3/22/1998 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >Did you really say binghamton.ed and not binghamton.edu? No, Dick, I cut-and-pasted the message to her into my post to the list, and dropped the "u" by mistake. BTW, thanks all for the complete instructions. I will remember better next time about including the NAME. [slapping self on forehead...] =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:59:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Buying embedded indexing programs Craig: This e-mail is not in relation to your e-mail. I am moving to Saint Louis in a few months, and if you have any information I could use to land in one piece more safely, I would appreciate it. You are welcome to call if you think a conversation would be more efficacious than e-mail. Thanks. Rob Craig Brown wrote: > By sheer coincidence I just got off the phone with a local (St. Louis) > graphic designer who uses Quark and my buying the program was a topic of > discussion. She suggested taking a course in Quark at the local > community college which not only gives you the academic discount but also > gives you a head start in learning the software. The course is > relatively inexpensive and the discount she described sounded to be in > the range of 50 percent. > > Craig Brown > > ========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword > ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:02:37 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer Subject: genealogy and indexing names In a message dated 98-03-22 00:12:42 EST, you write: > As a potential indexer, I am interested in indexing genealogical = > materials. Does anyone out there work with that and can you tell me how = > you like it? Yes, I like indexing genealogy and family history materials. It's fun to be paid to learn about history! One of the challenges is how to index names, and the different ways that a name is spelled. For example, I'm indexing a collection of letters and newspaper articles which have several different spellings of the same name: Edward Birge; Edward Berge; Edward Burge; Edward Benge. The author indicates in his endnotes, "Birge, Edward, listed as Benge or Burge, ..." This could be indexed as: Benge/Berge, Edward, See Birge, Edward Birge, Edward, 25 Burge, Edward, See Birge, Edward or Birge/Benge/Berge/Burge, Edward, 25 I've looked in CMS and Bell and Mulvany, without much help. Mulvany gives the rule of thumb, "post the entries in a way that readers are most likely to look up." Most of these names are not well known, so Merriam Webster's Biographical Dictionary isn't of much help to me either. I'm open to suggestions on this one! Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY ASI chapter Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:08:11 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer Subject: Buying embedded indexing programs In a message dated 98-03-22 00:12:42 EST, you write: > Is FrameMaker only for DOS/Win? Or Mac, too? Yes, FrameMaker runs on Mac as well as Windows. Actually, FrameMaker runs on 24 different platforms! One of the strongest benefits of FM is that its files can be transferred from one platform to another with very little, if any, changes. It's a great tool for publishing *big* documents (books with chapters, illustrations, Tables of Contents, etc). Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY ASI chapter Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:48:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Decker Subject: two questions from a newbie In-Reply-To: <199803140512.AAA09693@mailhost.infi.net> I have just gotten my materials for the first indexing course through USDA. I have two questions: 1. I have seen on this list the suggestion to send your assignments directly to your instructor to hasten the turn around time. I only have the name of my instructor. How would I get her snail mail or email address? Would I just have to make a comment on the Student Response Sheet and wait? 2. I have also seen others who have just started the course too. Are you interested in being in contact with each other by private email to share our thoughts and progress? Thanks to all, Debby Decker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:50:03 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Re: two questions from a newbie I, for one, would be happy to set up a USDA Course SIG of the Index-L. If current USDA course students would like to e-mail me with their interest, lesson number completed and e-mail address, I will compile and mail to all interested. I'm not able to do a true mailing list (if somone else can, please step up), but if you select the USDA names from your address book when you send a message, it should work out ok. Dan -- Dan Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing and Editing Services http://WFWIndex.necaweb.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:06:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: book titles in indexes Good Morning, >Speaking from the perspective of a reader, a cook and an indexer: > >I'd *love* to see a cookbook's index list other books mentioned. If I see a >mention in the text, and think "I'll look for that book at the library or >bookstore," later I won't remember the title or where I saw the mention. >Turn to index, look up "Cookbooks," find the entry, voila! I can go book >shopping. > >But I would only index them under "Cookbooks" not under their own titles. > >-- LG [...] Like Ms. Sonsie, I don't think I'd put the titles in the index, either. But I would suggest to the editor(s) that if the cookbook's titles aren't already listed in a bibliography/reading list, they might include them on one. If the eds don't intend to create a bib/reading list, then Ms. Gower's idea of having a "cookbook" entry in the index is the next best move on behalf of the readers. Anne ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:10:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: For those who index history/literary theory In-Reply-To: <199803220519.XAA24236@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I just read a book called The Killing of History: How Literary Critics and >Social Theorists are Murdering Our Past (Windschuttle, Keith. The Free >Press, c1996, ISBN 0-684-84445-1, $25.00). For those of you non-philosophers >out there who index history (and literary theory, too) and who are trying to >make head or tail of terms and relationships in postmodernism, >poststructuralism, semiotics, cultural relativism, historical fiction and >theory of poetics, anti-humanism and discourse theory, and the whole bit, >this might be a good book to examine. The author is a traditional historian >who loathes these "Paris designer" labels (as he calls these terms) and >dissects the weaknesses of actual books of history based on these theories. >In each chapter of his book, Windschuttle takes one or two of the labels and >proceeds to "deconstruct" the theories! It sure beats reading Derrida in the >original! Just to set the record straight, most of those theories are being generated in English departments, not philosophy departments. The philosophers I've known and/or studied with want nothing to do with it. So this is one philosophy indexer who can't make heads or tails of it either, and I'm certainly happy to hear about that book and will try to get a look at it (even though I turn down indexes for books that deal with Derrida at length). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:18:35 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: book titles in indexes In-Reply-To: <199803220519.XAA24236@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I'd like to respectfully disagree. In this instance, in a scholarly book, I >think the book title is an appropriate index entry along with the author's >name and the subject of the argument. Scholars are continually referring to >each other and to each other's works, whereas cookbook users are usually not >so research-oriented. > My take on this is that researchers look each other by name and concept, not book title. If the discussion is about the concept and the book title is there only to tell you where you can read the quote firsthand, then the book isn't the subject, IMO. To index it would be to duplicate the task of the endnotes and bibliography. Of course, I don't use that approach when the discussion is clearly about the book itself--for example, a discussion about which works attributed to Aristotle were likely written by his students. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:24:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: For those who index history/literary theory At 03:10 PM 3/22/98 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: > >Just to set the record straight, most of those theories are being generated >in English departments, not philosophy departments. The philosophers I've >known and/or studied with want nothing to do with it. So this is one >philosophy indexer who can't make heads or tails of it either, and I'm >certainly happy to hear about that book and will try to get a look at it >(even though I turn down indexes for books that deal with Derrida at >length). These theories (philosophies, if you will) were originally generated by French philosophers like Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, and others who apparently were influenced by such philosophers as Martin Heidegger and Friedrich Nietzsche. In turn, these theories were taken up by literary critics and other academics, who expanded the original ideas into nearly all areas of academic writing. We as indexers are seeing the results of the second tier of thinkers who are applying the original (philosophical) theories in some of the books we are indexing today (unfortunately). Yes, most traditional academics do not want to have anything to do with these theories at all. Windschuttle makes that very clear in his book, The Killing of History. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:09:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Buying embedded indexing programs In-Reply-To: <199803230224.SAA07239@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 09:08 PM 3/22/98 EST, Peg wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-22 00:12:42 EST, you write: > >> Is FrameMaker only for DOS/Win? Or Mac, too? > >Yes, FrameMaker runs on Mac as well as Windows. Actually, FrameMaker runs on >24 different platforms! One of the strongest benefits of FM is that its files >can be transferred from one platform to another with very little, if any, >changes. It's a great tool for publishing *big* documents (books with >chapters, illustrations, Tables of Contents, etc). Hi Peg, That's the amazing thing about FrameMaker, it's so powerful and versatile, yet they forgot a little but important thing like enabling the creation of keyboard macros. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:04:08 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: For those who index history/literary theory In-Reply-To: <199803222153.NAA22180@mail-gw5.pacbell.net> ROFL!!!!!! This had me on the floor!!!! Thanks for the belly laugh first thing this morning!!!! Lynn At 02:59 PM 3/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >>I just read a book called The Killing of History: How Literary Critics and >>Social Theorists are Murdering Our Past (Windschuttle, Keith. The Free >>Press, c1996, ISBN 0-684-84445-1, $25.00). For those of you non-philosophers >>out there who index history (and literary theory, too) and who are trying to >>make head or tail of terms and relationships in postmodernism, >>poststructuralism, semiotics, cultural relativism, historical fiction and >>theory of poetics, anti-humanism and discourse theory, and the whole bit, >>this might be a good book to examine. > >I used to hate indexing books with these terms in them, but soon I realized >that they are actually a breeze to do, because there's so little content. >You just take all the terms, mix them up, and randomly combine them. Then >you add an entry for "Vietnam War" and an entry for "Reagan, Ronald" (it >doesn't matter that the book is technically about gardening practices in the >High Middle Ages--these terms will find their way in somehow), and you're done! > >Now if I've offended anybody, I don't want to hear it. To the author of my >last postmodernist book, of course I don't mean that _your_ book was >anything like this. > >Heather > >/---------------------------------------------------------------------\ >| There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | >| do with each other... | >|---------------------------------------------------------------------| >| Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | >| Los Alamos, NM | >\---------------------------------------------------------------------/ > > *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:56:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: FrameMaker keyboard macros In-Reply-To: techndex@pacbell.net "Re: Buying embedded indexing programs" (Mar 23, 7:09am) Lynn wrote: > That's the amazing thing about FrameMaker, it's so powerful and versatile, > yet they forgot a little but important thing like enabling the creation of > keyboard macros. ;-D Actually, I learned only a few days ago that you can use keyboard macros with FrameMaker. I'm not very good at it yet, but I can get you started. Under the File menu, choose the Utilities submenu and select Keyboard Macros. >From there, you're on your own. :-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:07:38 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: two questions from a newbie On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:48:44 -0500 Deborah Decker writes: >I have just gotten my materials for the first indexing course through >USDA. >I have two questions: > >1. I have seen on this list the suggestion to send your assignments >directly to your instructor to hasten the turn around time. I only >have the >name of my instructor. How would I get her snail mail or email >address? >Would I just have to make a comment on the Student Response Sheet and >wait? Debbie, Chances are good that your instructor is a member of ASI - try looking her up in the members' directory for regular and e-mail addresses. Otherwise, she'll probably let you know her address with the return of your first lesson. Susan Hernandez BookEnd Indexing _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:24:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Hill Subject: ASIS 1998 Mid Year Meeting Collaboration across Boundaries: Theories, Strategies, and Technology May 16-20, 1998, Orlando, FL [This is a summary version of the Mid Year program prepared for listserve distribution. The schedule of sessions will be posted soon and regularly updated on the ASIS Web site, http://www.asis.org/Conferences/MY98/index.html --- Great News! If this is your First ASIS Conference or if you've never taken an ASIS Continuing Education course, you can SAVE BIG! Just register for the full conference AND any full day CE course and take $50 off your total registration fee. This offer is not available at the student or retired registration rate. --- Featured Speakers Michael Schrage A Merrill Lynch Forum Innovation Fellow, Michael Schrage writes and consults widely on the design and deployment of digital innovations. He is executive director of Merrill Lynch's Innovation Grant Competition and executive producer of IDG's Spotlight conference on interactive media. He explores technology design issues as a research associate with MIT's Media Lab. He is author of the critically acclaimed Shared Minds: The New Technologies of Collaboration [Random House 1990] - the first book to explore both the tools and dynamics of successful collaboration in business, science and the arts. The Japanese edition was published as Mind Networks [President 1992]. Jeffrey D. Smith Jeff Smith is a researcher at Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation (NTT), currently at the NTT Multimedia Communications Laboratories in Palo Alto, CA USA. His research interests include CSCW, organizational theory, organizational design, and classical rhetoric. One current project is EColabor, a collaborative requirements analysis system. Part of his work with EColabor is designing a distributed media server and control protocols. Technical Session Titles: - Demonstration - Ecolabor - Collaboration for Community Outreach: Bridging the Gap (SIG LAN, TIS, and MED) - Corporate and University Collaborative Partnerships: Report from the Field - Collaboration and Conflict in Using Technologies to Develop Human Service Organizations - Managing Groupware: Hosting and Appropriation - Issues in the Administration of Distance Learning (SIG ED) - Motivating Collaboration Within Organizational Settings (Contributed Paper Session) - Teaching Collaborative Skills - Leveraging Knowledge Through Collaboration: Knowledge Management in Theory and Practice (SIG MGT) - Student-Faculty Interactions across Distances (SIG ED) - Collaboration Across Organizational Boundaries (Contributed Paper Session) - Information Seeking/Retrieval (Contributed Paper Session) - Collaborative Authoring and Document Management (SIG PUB) - Student Collaboration across Distances - Collaborating with IT Groups to Promote Technology Training (SIG LAN) - Collaborative Knowledge Development: Methods, Models, and Tools Report/Demonstration of Work in Progress - If We Build it They Will Come: Collaboration in Advancing Information Arcade-inspired Teaching and Learning Spaces. - An Interactive and Collaborative Approach to Answering Questions for an Organization - Librarian-Faculty Partnerships & Collaborative Learning in Intercultural Communications - Case Studies in Academic Collaboration (SIG CRS, LAN, TIS) - Intra-Organizational Teams (Contributed Paper Session) - Educational Collaboration across International Boundaries (Contributed Papers Session) - Protection of Intellectual Property -- Collaboration or Conflict: Hearings for an ASIS White Paper (SIG IFP, PUB) - DEMO Customized Products: Users and Developers as Collaborators. - Interdisciplinary Teaching Innovations in Quantitative Studies (SIG TIS, ED) - Technologies Supporting Collaboration in an Educational Setting (SIG ED) CONTINUING EDUCATION (ALL COURSE 9-5 UNLESS SPECIFIED) Saturday, May 16 - Finding the Right Stuff: Using and Evaluating Internet Search Engines (Half Day). Candy Schwartz, associate professor, Simmons College Graduate School of Library & Information Science. - Law and the Internet. Mickie A. Voges, Director, Legal Information Center/associate professor of law, Chicago-Kent College of Law. - Harnessing New Technologies for Collaboration (Half Day). Micah Beck, assistant professor of computer science, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, faculty associate to the Java SunSITE, and Terry Moore, Network Services Coordinator at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. Sunday, May 17 - Digital Libraries: Computer Concepts & Technologies for Managing Library Collections. William Saffady is a professor at the Palmer School, Long Island University. - Copyright and Intellectual Property in an Electronic World. Mickie A. Voges, director, Legal Information Center and associate professor of law, Chicago-Kent College of Law. - Introduction to Image Databases. Howard Besser is a frequently published author and speaker on this subject. - Building the Virtual "Intranet" Knowledge Center. Howard McQueen is president of McQueen Consulting, Inc. - Mingling...With Intent!. Sunday, 4:00pm (Leadership Development Program, SIG/Chapter Officer Workshop) N. Bernard "Buzzy" Basch, Basch Subscriptions Headquarters Hotel Holiday Inn International Drive Resort 6515 International Drive Orlando, FL 32819 (407) 351-3500 http://www.destinationuniversal.com/HolidayInn-InternationalDrive Room rates: $75 (single or double) Reservations must identify the ASIS meeting to receive these preferred rates and must be made by April 24, 1998. Early Registration Discounts: To qualify for registration discounts, your registration and payment information must be received by ASIS by April 24, 1998. Late rates apply to registrations received after this date. This deadline will be strictly adhered to. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:52:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: (Fwd) Business Thesaurus I'm forwarding this message to the list because I can't answer it myself. Can anyone help? I'd recommend writing him directly. (However, let me know what your recommendations are so that I can include them on the ASI Web site.) - Seth --- Forwarded mail from Douglas Reynolds Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:25:28 -0500 From: Douglas Reynolds Subject: Business Thesaurus Hi, I'm looking for a business term thesaurus. Do you know of any? Thanks, Doug Douglas Reynolds Web Architect TVisions 21 Erie St. Cambridge, MA 02139 Phone: 617.349.0028 Fax: 617.441.8530 ---End of forwarded mail from Douglas Reynolds -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:56:46 -0800 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny McLaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: ASI So. Cal. Chapter meeting NEXT SOCAL MEETING: APRIL 4 The American Society of Indexers' Southern California Chapter invites you to attend a roundtable discussion with editor Faith Sands of Hope Publishing. Ms. Sands and SoCal indexers will compare viewpoints on various aspects of creating high-quality indexes. You will have an opportunity to ask questions about author-indexer contact, deadlines, rate-setting, and how an editor evaluates your resume and sample indexes when considering whether to hire you for freelance work. This will be a joint meeting with the Pacific Southwest Chapter of the American Medical Writers Association, so we should have a good turnout and a lively discussion. Date: Saturday, April 4, 1998 Time: 11:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. Location: Hamburger Hamlet "Garden Room (tel. 213-681-9281) 214 So. Lake Avenue, Pasadena, CA Parking: Behind building at corner of Mentor and Cordova No reservations are necessary. Lunch is your choice from the menu. We're looking forward to seeing you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:17:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Buying embedded indexing programs Lynn, I am using Framemaker for an embedded index, and find that I can use keyboard macros for text in the marker window. Am I missing something? Is there a "tip" here worthwhile for index-l? Joel Lynn Moncrief wrote: > > Hi Peg, > > That's the amazing thing about FrameMaker, it's so powerful and versatile, > yet they forgot a little but important thing like enabling the creation of > keyboard macros. ;-D > > Lynn > > *********************************** > Lynn Moncrief > (techndex@pacbell.net) > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing > *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:54:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Page proofs -- a moving target? My first (and so far only) index was published last year by a well-known publisher who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty. I did the index for the experience and as a favor for the author who is a friend. Since the author IS a friend, he gave me a copy of the book once it was published. I was leafing through it the other day and decided to look up an entry from the index. The entry I chose was the name of an acquaintance whose entry read -- Smith, John. 32-33. I turned to page 32, but the actual information began and ended on page 33. I couldn't understand how this careless error could have crept into the index (not to say there aren't other errors -- I'm sure there are). So I checked the original page proofs, and guess what: after the index was submitted, the page proofs were slightly changed, in this case probably to get rid of a bad page break. In the page proofs, the entry for John Smith DID begin on page 32 and extend into page 33. But in the final book, the paragraph had been pushed entirely onto page 33, so the index was now in error. My questions -- Is it commonplace that a publisher changes the page layout, even slightly, after the page proofs are sent to the indexer? And since I would like to index for this author again (he's working on the second draft of another book right now), should I point out to him that the publisher "screwed up" with regard to at least this one thing? [The new book has the same publisher.] And is there any way to get the publisher to notify the indexer or at least the author if there are to be changes made after the book has been sent to be indexed? I'm sick about this (all right, just mildly sick), because I know that at least one person thinks I'm a bad indexer, namely the acquaintance who surely turned right to his name in the index and noticed that I "made a mistake." What do you all think? Karen Lane klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:27:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Thomas P. Copley" Subject: ANNOUNCE> Spring Web Workshops Still Open Workshops on the World Wide Web (WWW) for the beginner and slightly more advanced user will be conducted monthly this spring by Arlington Courseware. Two sessions of each workshop are now open. Both are eight week distance-learning workshops conducted entirely by HTML mail.* MAKE THE LINK WORKSHOP: WORLD WIDE WEB FOR EVERYONE This workshop focuses on how to gain maximum advantage from the Web. It covers how to gain access to the WWW, linking to and interpreting URLs, distinguishing between different browsers, navigating and searching, organizing your bookmarks, designing your own home page with HTML and installing it on a server, utilizing principles of good Web design, and choosing between and using HTML editors. The cost is $20. For further information, see the Make the Link Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/links.html TUNE IN THE NET: GLOBAL REACH FOR THE 21st CENTURY This is the sequel to Make the Link, but may be taken independently by the more experienced beginner or intermediate user. It concentrates on Internet interactivity and assisting the more experienced user in making his or her Web pages into a standout interactive site. It covers prototyping Web pages with page generators and site builders, making HTML forms, using client-side image maps, customizing pages with frames and HTML 4.0, making content interactive with layers, dynamic HTML, Cascading Style Sheets (CSS), scripting with JavaScript, and utilizing push media, such as Netscape Netcaster and Microsoft Active Channels. The cost is $40. For additional information, see the Tune In the Net Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/tune.html The cost of both workshops taken together is $55. HOW TO SIGN UP Two Make the Link Workshops are scheduled for this spring: April Session March 30 - May 22 May Session April 27 - June 19 Two Tune In the Net Workshops are also scheduled: April Session March 30 - May 22 May Session April 27 - June 19 Sign up for ONE session of each workshop only unless you plan to take it more than once. To sign up, please send an e-mail message to the address: majordomo@arlington.com and in the body of the message, include the words: to subscribe to: ------------------ ---------------- subscribe links-apr the April session of Make the Link subscribe links-may the May session of Make the Link subscribe tune-apr the April session of Tune In the Net subscribe tune-may the May session of Tune In the Net This will automatically put you on the mailing list for more information about each workshop, and you will receive an acknowledgment with the particulars about signing up, and unsubscribing, should you decide not to participate. If you have any difficulty with this procedure or fail to receive a response, please send e-mail to the address in the signature line. * A plain ASCII text version is also available. ________________________________________________________________ THOMAS P. COPLEY tcopley@arlington.com Tune In the Net Workshop www.bearfountain.com/arlington/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:49:49 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: For those who index history/literary theory In-Reply-To: <199803231926.LAA18156@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> Cindy, You are absolutely awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your biggest fan, Lynn At 02:24 PM 3/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 03:10 PM 3/22/98 -0600, Carol Roberts wrote: >> >>Just to set the record straight, most of those theories are being generated >>in English departments, not philosophy departments. The philosophers I've >>known and/or studied with want nothing to do with it. So this is one >>philosophy indexer who can't make heads or tails of it either, and I'm >>certainly happy to hear about that book and will try to get a look at it >>(even though I turn down indexes for books that deal with Derrida at >>length). > > >These theories (philosophies, if you will) were originally generated by >French philosophers like Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, and others who >apparently were influenced by such philosophers as Martin Heidegger and >Friedrich Nietzsche. In turn, these theories were taken up by literary >critics and other academics, who expanded the original ideas into nearly all >areas of academic writing. We as indexers are seeing the results of the >second tier of thinkers who are applying the original (philosophical) >theories in some of the books we are indexing today (unfortunately). > >Yes, most traditional academics do not want to have anything to do with >these theories at all. Windschuttle makes that very clear in his book, The >Killing of History. > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen >Freelance Indexer >Bertelsen Indexing Services >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > >***************************************** > > *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:48:10 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: genealogy and indexing names The message <199803230223.CAA31806@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from Pmauer contains these words: > Edward Birge; Edward Berge; Edward Burge; Edward Benge. The author indicates > in his endnotes, "Birge, Edward, listed as Benge or Burge, ..." > This could be indexed as: > Benge/Berge, Edward, See Birge, Edward > Birge, Edward, 25 > Burge, Edward, See Birge, Edward > or > Birge/Benge/Berge/Burge, Edward, 25 Intuitively, I don't like the look of the last option, even if accompanied by "see" references from Benge, Berge and Burge. The first option looks better, though if space allows I'd prefer separate references from "Benge" and "Berge". -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:53:56 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Karen: I have been indexing for eight years and, if I have the proof to show I am blameless, I bring out the proof. If your acquaintance thinks you did a bad job and does not realize the pagination was altered after you were done, show him the goods. If he still does not believe you, don't work for him -- it won't be worth it. Just make sure the publisher believes you because you can't many more jobs from one publisher than you can from one author. Rob Karen Lane wrote: > My first (and so far only) index was published last year by > a well-known publisher who shall remain nameless to protect > the guilty. I did the index for the experience and as a favor > for the author who is a friend. > > Since the author IS a friend, he gave me a copy of the book > once it was published. I was leafing through it the other > day and decided to look up an entry from the index. The > entry I chose was the name of an acquaintance whose entry > read -- > > Smith, John. 32-33. > > I turned to page 32, but the actual information began and > ended on page 33. I couldn't understand how this careless > error could have crept into the index (not to say there aren't > other errors -- I'm sure there are). > > So I checked the original page proofs, and guess what: after > the index was submitted, the page proofs were slightly changed, > in this case probably to get rid of a bad page break. In the > page proofs, the entry for John Smith DID begin on page 32 and > extend into page 33. But in the final book, the paragraph had > been pushed entirely onto page 33, so the index was now in error. > > My questions -- > > Is it commonplace that a publisher changes the page layout, even > slightly, after the page proofs are sent to the indexer? > > And since I would like to index for this author again (he's > working on the second draft of another book right now), should > I point out to him that the publisher "screwed up" with regard > to at least this one thing? [The new book has the same publisher.] > > And is there any way to get the publisher to notify the indexer > or at least the author if there are to be changes made after the > book has been sent to be indexed? > > I'm sick about this (all right, just mildly sick), because I know > that at least one person thinks I'm a bad indexer, namely the > acquaintance who surely turned right to his name in the index and > noticed that I "made a mistake." > > What do you all think? > > Karen Lane > klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:02:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? In-Reply-To: <199803240559.VAA15544@powergrid.electriciti.com> I think that sending page proofs to indexers before final changes is becoming a common and lamentable practice. I have squawked about it loudly. Cindex and, I'm confident, other dedicated indexing software can make automatic adjustment to page spreads. I strongly request that I not get page proofs until after the first run of publisher and author corrections, but am beginning to think that it's a futile request. One publisher keeps saying that they'll adjust the index to last-minute changes, but it never seems to happen. This is not a case of malice, I'm certain: They just are so busy with last-minute changes before shipping, that they forget the index. I received a LOT of praise for a particular index last year and discovered that all illustration were 1-page off. The production editor looked at me with a glazed stare of recognition. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:22:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Pam: I agree, but I understand the publishers I work with. Their schedules have become so tight -- they blame their salespeople -- that the luxury of time no longer exists. Tant pis, as they say in French. We can only hope they come to their senses. Unlikely, though. Rob Pam Rider wrote: > I think that sending page proofs to indexers before final changes is > becoming a common and lamentable practice. I have squawked about it loudly. > Cindex and, I'm confident, other dedicated indexing software can make > automatic adjustment to page spreads. > > I strongly request that I not get page proofs until after the first run of > publisher and author corrections, but am beginning to think that it's a > futile request. > > One publisher keeps saying that they'll adjust the index to last-minute > changes, but it never seems to happen. This is not a case of malice, I'm > certain: They just are so busy with last-minute changes before shipping, > that they forget the index. > > I received a LOT of praise for a particular index last year and discovered > that all illustration were 1-page off. The production editor looked at me > with a glazed stare of recognition. > Pam Rider > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:31:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? As a former statistician, it occurs to me that one solution (I write this tongue-in-cheek) is to add a margin of error to all index entries, thusly: Washington, George, 38-39 +/- .5p Meaning, information about George Washington will be found on pages 38 and 39, plus or minus half a page. Elizabeth _______________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Robert [mailto:] Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 10:22 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Pam: I agree, but I understand the publishers I work with. Their schedules have become so tight -- they blame their salespeople -- that the luxury of time no longer exists. Tant pis, as they say in French. We can only hope they come to their senses. Unlikely, though. Rob Pam Rider wrote: > I think that sending page proofs to indexers before final changes is > becoming a common and lamentable practice. I have squawked about it loudly. > Cindex and, I'm confident, other dedicated indexing software can make > automatic adjustment to page spreads. > > I strongly request that I not get page proofs until after the first run of > publisher and author corrections, but am beginning to think that it's a > futile request. > > One publisher keeps saying that they'll adjust the index to last-minute > changes, but it never seems to happen. This is not a case of malice, I'm > certain: They just are so busy with last-minute changes before shipping, > that they forget the index. > > I received a LOT of praise for a particular index last year and discovered > that all illustration were 1-page off. The production editor looked at me > with a glazed stare of recognition. > Pam Rider > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:50:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? In-Reply-To: <3517BAF4.B11BFD4F@mindspring.com> Karen, I sent in an index to a company I had done several for. My contact called me on this one, having never done so before, saying that my alphabetization had been wrong in quite a few places, but that they had fixed it and it had gone to print. She just thought I would want to know. I freaked, and checked, and could find no errors, and then I thought, OH MY GOD what if the subentries somehow lost their style tags, and everything had gotten mooshed together (but fortunately that wasn't it). What we finally found out was that a brand new editor had not known that in indexes one doesn't sort on articles and preps, and had re-alphabetized all the ands, ofs, etc. Not a horrific thing, and most readers of that particular book won't know the difference, but any other indexer or editor, or savvy reader who gets the book will think I'm an idiot, and I *am* named as the indexer. And in another book for the same company, about 30 locators ended up missing in the print version, though they are there in the file I sent them. And I just sent in an index (to a different company) all done all nice, and they call back and say they're redoing the whole last section. Gotta do it all over. And in a hurry. At least they gave me a chance to check the new pages and fix the locators. This time. So these things happen, and no one likes it but I file it under Things I'm Not In Charge of and let it go (as much as I can anyway). Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:48:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? The view from a publisher.... It's true: pages often reflow. It's the nature of the beast. Photos are placed incorrectly; photos are mis-sized; permissions don't come through when we expected them to; a coding glitch occurred, meaning a chunk of data was missing or printed at a much smaller or larger point size; late-breaking information requires a passage to change (say, somebody died, and you need to rewrite a passage). You get the picture. Stuff happens. Ideally, we'd hold off until *everything* is in place before turning the pages over to the indexer. But schedules are schedules, and we know that it takes time for the indexer to do his or her thing. So we usually send along the first-pass pages to the indexer. And that's usually OK, since reflows typically occur in limited areas of the book. And if chapters are relatively small, the reflow eventually stops at the next chapter. (I don't recall our letting a reflow effect the whole dang book--if it looks like it will, we pull the photo, find a different photo---anything to keep the whole book from reflowing.) Our feeling is that, in the long run, it still takes less time to fix the reflows then it would to hold off on the index til the pages are perfect--that would mean the book would probably come out later than planned (slipped dates are frowned upon--I mean, a lost month is a lost month) or the indexer would have less time. Bottom line, though. Whether a reflow effects one page or the whole book, it's the publisher's responsibility to make those pagination changes. Usually we do it ourselves. Sometimes we send it back to the indexer. But to let it go unchecked is unthinkable. Egads, indexes for us (a reference publisher) are the key access points. They've got to be right. Larry Baker Gale Research ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:05:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jngcain Subject: Re: Subscribe Help Could it be that you need to to address the unsubscribe note to "binghamton.edu", and not "binghamton.ed"? Jennifer Cain ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? -Reply Larry makes the definitive point: Page changes are inevitable, but it is the publisher's responsibility to either fix the index or notify the indexer and have them do it. I have the luxury of working as an in-house indexer so I'm very familiar with the whole process, and last minute page changes are, as Larry said, the nature of the beast. Our people know to let us know when that happens so that the problem can be fixed, but admittedly, it took years of tap dancing on various people's heads to make the point! I wouldn't hesitate to bring it up with the publisher (diplomatically, of course), and it might even be a good idea to include a boilerplate reminder whenever you turn your work in ("Let me know if there are any last minute page changes so that we can fix the index..."). I would guess that most publishers would not mind in the least being reminded about the impact on the index, and would probably appreciate having someone who is a) willing to bring it to their attention and b) willing to fix it for them, if need be. You would probably score big points for taking that added burden off of them! Just my 2 cents from yet another insider perspective... -- Sharon W. >>> 03/24/98 10:48am >>> The view from a publisher.... It's true: pages often reflow. It's the nature of the beast. Photos are placed incorrectly; photos are mis-sized; permissions don't come through when we expected them to; a coding glitch occurred, meaning a chunk of data was missing or printed at a much smaller or larger point size; late-breaking information requires a passage to change (say, somebody died, and you need to rewrite a passage). You get the picture. Stuff happens. Ideally, we'd hold off until *everything* is in place before turning the pages over to the indexer. But schedules are schedules, and we know that it takes time for the indexer to do his or her thing. So we usually send along the first-pass pages to the indexer. And that's usually OK, since reflows typically occur in limited areas of the book. And if chapters are relatively small, the reflow eventually stops at the next chapter. (I don't recall our letting a reflow effect the whole dang book--if it looks like it will, we pull the photo, find a different photo---anything to keep the whole book from reflowing.) Our feeling is that, in the long run, it still takes less time to fix the reflows then it would to hold off on the index til the pages are perfect--that would mean the book would probably come out later than planned (slipped dates are frowned upon--I mean, a lost month is a lost month) or the indexer would have less time. Bottom line, though. Whether a reflow effects one page or the whole book, it's the publisher's responsibility to make those pagination changes. Usually we do it ourselves. Sometimes we send it back to the indexer. But to let it go unchecked is unthinkable. Egads, indexes for us (a reference publisher) are the key access points. They've got to be right. Larry Baker Gale Research ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:48:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Larry: I agree. Schedules are inviolate until violated. That is the nature of the beast. If I do an index for a client, I will repaginate at no extra cost if my schedule will allow and if the repagination is not too horrific. Otherwise, I must bill the client -- something I don't really want to do. Unfortunately, today's printing and publishing schedules have tightened too far. But what to do? Rob Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > The view from a publisher.... It's true: pages often reflow. It's the > nature of the beast. Photos are placed incorrectly; photos are mis-sized; > permissions don't come through when we expected them to; a coding glitch > occurred, meaning a chunk of data was missing or printed at a much smaller > or larger point size; late-breaking information requires a passage to > change (say, somebody died, and you need to rewrite a passage). You get the > picture. > > Stuff happens. Ideally, we'd hold off until *everything* is in place before > turning the pages over to the indexer. But schedules are schedules, and we > know that it takes time for the indexer to do his or her thing. So we > usually send along the first-pass pages to the indexer. And that's usually > OK, since reflows typically occur in limited areas of the book. And if > chapters are relatively small, the reflow eventually stops at the next > chapter. (I don't recall our letting a reflow effect the whole dang > book--if it looks like it will, we pull the photo, find a different > photo---anything to keep the whole book from reflowing.) Our feeling is > that, in the long run, it still takes less time to fix the reflows then it > would to hold off on the index til the pages are perfect--that would mean > the book would probably come out later than planned (slipped dates are > frowned upon--I mean, a lost month is a lost month) or the indexer would > have less time. > > Bottom line, though. Whether a reflow effects one page or the whole book, > it's the publisher's responsibility to make those pagination changes. > Usually we do it ourselves. Sometimes we send it back to the indexer. But > to let it go unchecked is unthinkable. Egads, indexes for us (a reference > publisher) are the key access points. They've got to be right. > > Larry Baker > Gale Research ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:51:37 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? In-Reply-To: <199803241537.KAA03355@camel23.mindspring.com> I've actually had one client who told me that no one would care if all the index entries were wrong. She said "People are used to having the index be wrong and they always look before and after a few pages." I think my jaw made a really loud noise when it hit the floor. I told her "Okay, fine, at the bottom of every index page, let's print a notice telling people to look 5 pages before and after each entry. That way they will know." I actually did manage to convince her to have a correct index when the book was printed. At 10:31 AM 3/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >As a former statistician, it occurs to me that one solution (I write >this tongue-in-cheek) is to add a margin of error to all index entries, >thusly: > >Washington, George, 38-39 +/- .5p > >Meaning, information about George Washington will be found on pages 38 >and 39, plus or minus half a page. > >Elizabeth >_______________________________________________ > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robert [mailto:] >Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 10:22 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? > > >Pam: > > I agree, but I understand the publishers I work with. Their >schedules have >become so tight -- they blame their salespeople -- that the luxury of >time no >longer exists. Tant pis, as they say in French. > > We can only hope they come to their senses. Unlikely, though. > > Rob > > >Pam Rider wrote: > >> I think that sending page proofs to indexers before final changes is >> becoming a common and lamentable practice. I have squawked about it >loudly. >> Cindex and, I'm confident, other dedicated indexing software can make >> automatic adjustment to page spreads. >> >> I strongly request that I not get page proofs until after the first >run of >> publisher and author corrections, but am beginning to think that it's >a >> futile request. >> >> One publisher keeps saying that they'll adjust the index to >last-minute >> changes, but it never seems to happen. This is not a case of malice, >I'm >> certain: They just are so busy with last-minute changes before >shipping, >> that they forget the index. >> >> I received a LOT of praise for a particular index last year and >discovered >> that all illustration were 1-page off. The production editor looked at >me >> with a glazed stare of recognition. >> Pam Rider >> Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth >> >> prider@electriciti.com >> prider@tsktsk.com > Jan +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Jan C. Wright Wright Information Indexing Services Jancw@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:31:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Robert said, "Unfortunately, today's printing and publishing schedules have tightened too far. But what to do?" Obviously, there's a positive spin on that, too. Technological advances (the use of postscript, for example, thereby eliminating the need to strip in negatives, etc.) allows the printing process to be quicker. Well, that's a good thing ... it means that most of the editorial process can extend a week or two because it won't take as long at the other side. There's SGML and the like, so we're coding the bejeebers out of our files now, so that typesetters--er, desktoppers--spend less time cuz they're working with templates and cleaner copy. (I mean, we've come a long way from turning in typewritten copy to be *re*typed by the typesetters, dealing with galleys, etc., etc.) And that's a good thing, too. That, too, means we have more time at the editorial process. (Two weeks saved at typesetting + two weeks saved at P&B = one month earlier publication = one month of additional sales. I hate to bring the ol' revenue subject up, but facts is facts.) But going back to the negative spin... what happens is that because we have shorter typesetting and P&B schedules, we have less time to deal with the bad stuff that happens during the production phase--like page reflows. And while the technological advance of using postscript helps in most cases, I don't need to tell my publisher kin how that negatively effects the time we have to deal with something like images. In the old days, sizing, shooting negatives, etc. could happen simultaneously with the typesetting phase cuz the typesetter had nothing to do with images--we'd just batch up the negs, make sure they were labelled appropriately (Size X, pg. 46, caption = blah, blah, blah), and send 'em off to the printer to be stripped in. Now, of course, the images need to be scanned and sent to the typesetter with the text because everything goes into the postscript file. That means we have to be done with the photo process 6-8 weeks before we used to have to be done. Yikes... didn't mean to turn this into a diatribe!! Just wanted to point out some of the advantages and disadvantages of advances. Larry Baker Gale Research ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:45:12 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Larry: Maybe I am being anachronistic, but this increase in speed has also had the detrimental effect on proofreading (which I also do). I cannot read a newspaper today. Too many typos. Moreover, too many typos that should have been caught. Does the world need to be in such a rush? Must every company show a 15 percent increase in profits every quarter? Yes, I know; I am being old-fashioned, but I still believe in quality over quantity. Anytime, anywhere. That's why, you will notice, the movie "Titanic" did not win any acting or scriptwriting awards. The essence of a movie is its writing and acting, just as the essence of a work of nonfiction is its writing and its index. Period. Rob Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > Robert said, "Unfortunately, today's printing and publishing > schedules have tightened too far. But what to do?" > > Obviously, there's a positive spin on that, too. Technological advances > (the use of postscript, for example, thereby eliminating the need to strip > in negatives, etc.) allows the printing process to be quicker. Well, that's > a good thing ... it means that most of the editorial process can extend a > week or two because it won't take as long at the other side. There's SGML > and the like, so we're coding the bejeebers out of our files now, so that > typesetters--er, desktoppers--spend less time cuz they're working with > templates and cleaner copy. (I mean, we've come a long way from turning in > typewritten copy to be *re*typed by the typesetters, dealing with galleys, > etc., etc.) And that's a good thing, too. That, too, means we have more > time at the editorial process. (Two weeks saved at typesetting + two weeks > saved at P&B = one month earlier publication = one month of additional > sales. I hate to bring the ol' revenue subject up, but facts is facts.) > > But going back to the negative spin... what happens is that because we have > shorter typesetting and P&B schedules, we have less time to deal with the > bad stuff that happens during the production phase--like page reflows. And > while the technological advance of using postscript helps in most cases, I > don't need to tell my publisher kin how that negatively effects the time we > have to deal with something like images. In the old days, sizing, shooting > negatives, etc. could happen simultaneously with the typesetting phase cuz > the typesetter had nothing to do with images--we'd just batch up the negs, > make sure they were labelled appropriately (Size X, pg. 46, caption = blah, > blah, blah), and send 'em off to the printer to be stripped in. Now, of > course, the images need to be scanned and sent to the typesetter with the > text because everything goes into the postscript file. That means we have > to be done with the photo process 6-8 weeks before we used to have to be > done. > > Yikes... didn't mean to turn this into a diatribe!! Just wanted to point > out some of the advantages and disadvantages of advances. > > Larry Baker > Gale Research ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Robert--I hear ya. Proofing sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. But it goes beyond that. There's the issue of control over product. We outsource a LOT. The trick is to make sure we hire good authors and freelancers, they adhere to well-defined standards, and they turn in material in time for us to do quality checks. I don't mean to imply that quality is solely in the hands of freelancers ... it's just not totally an increase-in-speed issue. Obviously it's a mixture of a lot of things. And, yeah, I sometimes wish everything didn't need to be faxed, modemed, emailed, overnighted, voicemailed, etc., etc. (I remember HATING those pink, "While You Were Out" forms that sat on my desk when I came back from vacation. Now they seem so ancient!) But that's the world we live in. I used to be more cynical about company profits and stuff like that. But then I became interested in the company-matching funds for my 401K, what the company revenue goal was so that we'd get that end-of-the-year gain-sharing check, what the financial implications were if a product didn't meet its month.... The company I work for pays me fairly well, provides benefits, gives me lots of flexibility, let's me dress casually, lets me set up a work-at-home schedule, pays for my parking, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, I guess it's only fair that they care about the bottom line, and that I should care about that, too. Don't get me wrong... I gripe and complain about stuff just like the next guy (hey, we're human) and I still maintain that proper planning and proper resources will result in high quality product, but I know that, just as *I* seek a balanced checkbook every month, so does my employer. Chuckling, feeling like I've gotten into something I didn't mean to get into (what was the topic--page reflow??), and ready to react to those who wonder "Where the heck did this former lurker come from??!!, Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:54:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AllWrite N Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? BRAVO! I also have a hard time at websites with spelling errors and other mistakes -- especially when they are supposedly 'professional' and/or literary sites. Up with quality! Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:14:09 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "isko.conf" Subject: Fifth International ISKO Conference in Lille -- Preliminary Program and Registration Materials Preliminary Program and Registration Materials Fifth International ISKO Conference on "Structures & Relations in Knowledge Organization" Lille, August 25-29 1998 organized by the International Society for Knowledge Organization & the University Charles de Gaulle Lille 3 Conference activities will take place in La Maison de la Recherche Building, Universiti Lille 3, Domaine Universitaire Pont de Bois, 59653, Villeneuve d'Ascq, except where otherwise indicated. The registration will take place on Tuesday, August 25, 8:30 am-9:30am Tuesday, August 25 Session A1a: Opening of the Conference Session A1b: Panel addressing the general theme of the Conference. Chair : Rebecca GREEN Panelists: Carol BEAN, Christian FLUHR, Michhle HUDON, Ia McILWAINE, Joan MITCHELL, A. NEELAMEGHAN LUNCH Session A2 : Epistemology and Information Ecology 7 The Perspective from Nowhere, Roberto POLI 7 The Role of Classificatory Structures as Boundary Objects in Information Ecologies, Hanne ALBRECHTSEN and Elin K. JACOB 7. Mitaphore organisation et construction des connaissances dans les sciences textuelles, Alain DEREMETZ 7 Du raisonnement abductif, Jacques ROUAULT BREAK Session A3 : Cognitive Approaches to Knowledge Organization A: Conceptual Entities and Modelling of Ontologies 7 From Thesauri towards Ontologies? Dietrich FISCHER, Wiebke MVHR 7 Ontology Models for Supporting Exploratory Information Needs, Maria LEE, Riichiro MIZOGUCHI 7 System of Types + Inter-Concept Relations Properties: towards Validation of Constructed Terminologies ?, Christophe JOUIS BREAK Session A4 : Computational Models 7 Computational Mechanisms for Knowledge Organization, John MYLOPOULOS, Igor JURISICA, Eric YU 7 Two Modes of Automated Domain Analysis: Multidimensional Scaling vs. Kohonen Feature Mapping of Information Science, Howard D. WHITE, Xia LIN, Katherine W. McCAIN An Artificial Neural Network Perspective on Knowledge Representation from Databases: the Use of a Multilayer Perceptron for Data Clusters Cartography., Xavier POLANCO, Claire FRANCOIS, Aly OULD Reception at the University of Lille 3 7:00pm-8:30 pm Wednesday, Aug. 26, 1998 Session B1 : Development and Analysis in Classification Systems 7 Classification Systems in their Historical Development: Problems of Typology and Terminology, Eduard R. SUKIASYAN 7 Relationships in Ranganathan's Colon Classification: a critical Appraisal, M.P. SATIJA, Hemalta IYER Classification Structure Principles: Investigations, Experiences and Conclusions, Ingetraut DAHLBERG 7 General Classification Systems: Structural Principles for Multidisciplinary Specification, Clare BEGHTOL 7 Knowledge Classifications, Bibliographic Classifications and the Internet, Ia C. McILWAINE BREAK Session B2: Interdisciplinary Approaches to Knowledge Organization 7 Modeling Users Needs : Schema of Interrogation and Filtering the Answers from the Web in Cooperation Mode, Omar LAROUK 7 An Interdisciplinary World and Discipline Based Classification, Nancy J. WILLIAMSON A Cognitive Science System for Symbol Grounding, Jean-Pierre GRUSELLE LUNCH Session B3 : Design of Information Systems - A : Thesaurus Design 7 The Nature of Explicit Parent-Child Relationships in Mesh Tree Structures, Carol A. BEAN 7 A preliminary Investigation of the Usefulness of Semantic Relations and of Standardized Definitions for the Purpose of Specifying Meaning in a Thesaurus, Michhle HUDON 7 Bringing Thesauri Forward: towards Flexibility and Reusability: Contribution to the Preparation of a New Standard on (Multilingual) Thesauri, Corentin ROULIN 7 Defining the Conceptual Space for a World Exhibition: First Experiences, Winfried SCHMITZ-ESSER 7 Future Thesauri: What Kind of Structure and Relations do Searchers Need?, Marianne LYKKE NIELSEN BREAK/POSTERS 7 Automatic Building of a Relationships Transducer between Proper Names Based on Relational Database System: an Example of Detection and Processing of Relationships between Names of Places and Names of Inhabitants, Claude BELLEIL, Denis MAUREL 7 Changes in the Structure of a Thesaurus Reflecting Changes of its Function, Ewa CHMIELEWSKA-GORZICA .. The Structure of Judicial Opinions: Identifying Internal Components and their Relationships, Jack G. CONRAD, Daniel P. DABNEY 7 Preserving KBS Integrity Using a Unified Knowledge Representation, John DEBENHAM 7 External Dialog and Internal Structure of an Iconographic Database, Marie DESPRES-LONNET, Kattel BRIATTE 7 The Divergence and Diversity of Thesauri, Stella G DEXTRE CLARKE 7 Information and Metainformation: a Pragmatic Approach, Maria Nelida GONZALES DE GOMEZ Towards an Elaborate Information System: Automatic Classification of Terms Using Variations Relations, Fidelia IBEKWE-SANJUAN .. Computer-Assisted Plurilingual Reading System, Jacques LADOUCEUR, Arman TAJAROBI 7 A Semiotic Analysis of Icons on the World Wide Web Library Homepages: an Analysis of Indexing and Use, Yan MA, Virgil DIODATO .. Internal Representation of Knowledge in an Interactive, Multimedia and Encyclopedia Oriented System, Houria OUICI, J.P. METZGER 7 The Indexing of Technical Documents : the Use of a Knowledge Representation Model, Ciline PAGANELLI, Jacques ROUAULT 7 Understanding Information Retrieval: Analysis of Users' Activity, C. ROS, N. MATTA 7 Organizing Knowledge as Cases for Effective Information Retrieval, V.SHANKARARAMAN, D.JOB Automatic Indexing of Multimedia Documents Based on the Extraction of Nominal Phrases, Sahbi SIDHOM, Sami OUESLATI, Malek GHENIMA 7 Development of a Knowledge Infrastructure for the Canadian Forest Services, A.J. SIMARD 7 Transposition de connaissances sur la tilimatique dans un contexte de communication didactique sur support hypermidia, Isabelle VIDALENC, Olivier DUPONT Reception at the Town Hall by the Mayor of Lille 7:00pm: Thursday, Aug. 27, 1998 Session C1: Design of Information Systems - B : Knowledge Structures at the Interface 7 Using Syntagmatic Relationships as a Browsing Relevance Feedback Strategy in an WWW_OPACs Based on RAMEAU List: an Empirical Study, Madjid IHADJADENE, Richard BOUCHE 7 Visualizing the Full Spectrum of Document Relationships , Elizabeth G. HETZLER, Wyllona M. HARRIS 7 The Application of the Dewey Decimal Classification in a View-Based Searching OPAC, Steve POLLITT 7 A Graphical Interface for Conceptual Navigation in Faceted Thesauri or other Nested Hierarchies, Uta PRISS 7 Dewey as an Internet Subject Guide, Diane VIZINE-GOETZ BREAK Session C2: Linguistic Aspects (A) 7 Concept Structures for Large Vocabularies, Gerhard RAHMSTORF 7 Automatic Term Extraction & Building Tools : Examining the New Interfaces and their Effective Communication Role in LSP Discourse, Widad MUSTAFA el HADI 7 Peering through the Linguistic Keyhole: What Can Term Choice Tell Us about Knowledge Organization?, Lynne BOWKER 7 Breaking of UDC Subject Headings into Sets of Key Words, Gerhard J.A. RIESTHUIS LUNCH Session C3 : The Comparative Approach .. ICC and ICS: comparison and relations between two systems based on different principles, Giliola NEGRINI, Tamara FARNESI .. Charting a Journey across Knowledge domains: Feminism in the Dewey Decimal Classification, H.A. OLSON, D.B. WARD BREAK Session C4 : Cognitive Approaches to Knowledge Organization B : Applications: Image Retrieval 7 Graphic Language Documents: Structures and Functions, Caroline BEEBE, Elin K. JACOB 7 A Cognitive Approach to Representing Moving Image Documents, Abby A. GOODRUM BREAK Session C5: Linguistic Aspects (B) 7 Thesaurus Usage and Mental Development, Annette BEGUIN 7 The Linguistic/Semiotic Conditions of Information Retrieval/Documentation in the Light of a Saussurean Conception of Language, Vesa SUOMINEN 7 Text Structure and Indexing Vocabulary Structure in Large Technical Documents, Genevihve LALLICH-BOIDIN, Christel FROISSARD, Evelyne MOUNIER, Cicile PAGANELLI ISKO Business Meeting (6:30-7:30) Dinner in a Flemish restaurant Friday, Aug. 28, 1998 Session D1: Design of Information Systems - C : Design of Special-Purpose Systems of Knowledge 7 On the Use of Categorizations Employed in Research Reports as the Basis for Organizing Knowledge in Specific Domains: Exploring the Tension between Stability and Change in Systems of Categories, Paul SOLOMON 7 Information Processes within a Professional Activity, Jean-Paul METZGER, Rosalba PALERMITI, Claire MORISET 7 Representing Knowledge Structure of a Digitized Historical Fashion Collection, Marcia LEI ZENG 7 Document Related Concepts and Relationships as a Basis for Knowledge Management in Viticulture, Craig McDONALD BREAK Session D2: Conceptual Modeling 7 Attribution and Relationality, Rebecca GREEN 7 A Model of Ontologies by Differentiation, Stiphanie LACROIX, Jean-Charles MARTY, Christophe ROCHE 7 Subdivisions vs. Conjunctions: a Discussion on Conceptual Theory, Yiukio NAKAMURA 7 Database and Knowledge Representation: the Greek Legacy, Alan PHELAN LUNCH 7 Session D3 : User Profile modeling 7 Metadata Structures and User Preferences: Designing User-Focussed Knowledge Access System, Lynne C. HOWARTH 7 Information Transfer Considering the Production and Use Contexts: Information Transfer Languages, Maria SALLET FERREIRA NOVELLINO 7 Conceptual Maps: Paradigmatic and Syntagmatic Links for Users, Elisabeth KOLMAYER, D. LAVANDIER, D. ROGER BREAK Session D4: Structures and Relations in the On-line Environment 7 The Structure of Classification Schemes Used in Internet Search Engines, Marthinus S. VAN DER WALT 7 Organizing Conceptual Knowledge Online, Robert E. KENT 7 The ALCOM/NIST Heterogeneous Structures Database: Knowledge Structure f or Basic and Applied Research in an Interdisciplinary Scientific Collaboration, Laura BARTOLO, Maja ZUMER, Robert CASSON, Leo HOLMBERG Individual Differences and the Use of Medical World Wide Web Resources: The Use of Graphical Representations of Navigational Patterns to Support Traditional Analysis of Qualitative Data, Honey LUCAS 7 Domain Knowledge Organization for Encyclopedia Design: an Object Oriented Approach, J. AKAICHI, G. LOSFELD Session D5 : Concluding Remarks Close of the Conference (6:15-6:30pm) .. Le Coup de l'itrier (One for the road) (6:30-7:30) Saturday, Aug. 29 1998 Extra-Conference Excursions : 7 Bibliothhque Nationale de France, Frangois Mitterand, Paris 7 ENSSIB (Ecole Nationale des Sciences de l'Information et des Bibliothhques) Lyon Program updated version(s), registration, etc. and more information about the Conference will soon be available on our Web Site: < http://WWW.univ-lille3.fr/www/isko/isko2.htm> ************************************************** REGISTRATION FORM Return to: Christophe JOUIS, IDIST, UNIVERSITE CHARLES DE GAULLE LILLE 3, BP 149, 59653 Villeneuve d'Ascq CEDEX, FRANCE Fax: +33 (3) 20 41 63 79 Tel: +33 (3) 20 41 64 08 Name: _________________________ First name: __________________________________ Company/University: _________________________________________________________ Address:____________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ Country: _____________ Tel:_________________ E-mail:___________________________ Please indicate if it is your personal r or professional r address Invoice to be sent to (if different from above):______________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ Do not include my mailing address in a non-society mailing list r Registration fees (including VAT 20,6 %) Registration fees include access to sessions, proceedings and coffee breaks. 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Room basis only, taxes and service included. 2** hotel category (Lille centre) La Belle Etoile 57, rue de Bithune 59800 Lille 230-330 FF Tel. 03 20 12 96 96 Fax 0320 40 25 87 St Maurice 8, parvis St Maurice 59000 Lille 300 FF Tel. 03 20 06 27 40 Fax 03 20 42 13 29 BRUEGHEL 3/5 parvis Saint-Maurice 59000 Lille 200-350 FF Tel. 03.20.06.06.69 Fax 03.20.63.25.27 Minerva 28, rue Anatole France 59800 Lille 200-300 FF Tel. 03 20 55 25 11 Fax 03 20 06 02 20 (1) Average prices per room and per night. Room basis only, taxes and service included. Program updated version(s), registration, etc. and more information about the Conference will soon be available on our Web Site: < http://WWW.univ-lille3.fr/www/isko/isko2.htm> ********************************************************** Widad MUSTAFA ELHADI UFR IDIST Universiti Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve D'Ascq France TEL 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 FAX 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 Personal e-mail address : mustafa@univ-lille3.fr ISKO 5 e-mail address : isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr *********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? On 3/24/98 14:34 Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: >Chuckling, feeling like I've gotten into something I didn't mean to get >into (what was the topic--page reflow??), and ready to react to those who >wonder "Where the heck did this former lurker come from??!!, Larry... Don't beat up on yourself. There are many among us who appreciate the editorial voice. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:40:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Larry: Absolutely true. I have noticed, while proofreading, editing, or indexing, that authors have a tendency to introduce an acronym and then not spell it out for another 100 pages or so. I hate that. Not only that, in financial, legal, and computer books, the authors can never agree on how to spell out an acronym or the acronym itself. For me, the case should be clear: If the words, spelled out, are initial caps, then the acronym should be all caps. Period. Nobody spells IBM as Ibm. But, why then, do they spell NASDAQ as Nasdaq? All I would like is a little consistency. Yikes. Seems so impossible. Rob 773.761.4381 Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > Robert--I hear ya. Proofing sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. But it goes > beyond that. There's the issue of control over product. We outsource a LOT. > The trick is to make sure we hire good authors and freelancers, they adhere > to well-defined standards, and they turn in material in time for us to do > quality checks. I don't mean to imply that quality is solely in the hands > of freelancers ... it's just not totally an increase-in-speed issue. > Obviously it's a mixture of a lot of things. > > And, yeah, I sometimes wish everything didn't need to be faxed, modemed, > emailed, overnighted, voicemailed, etc., etc. (I remember HATING those > pink, "While You Were Out" forms that sat on my desk when I came back from > vacation. Now they seem so ancient!) But that's the world we live in. > > I used to be more cynical about company profits and stuff like that. But > then I became interested in the company-matching funds for my 401K, what > the company revenue goal was so that we'd get that end-of-the-year > gain-sharing check, what the financial implications were if a product > didn't meet its month.... The company I work for pays me fairly well, > provides benefits, gives me lots of flexibility, let's me dress casually, > lets me set up a work-at-home schedule, pays for my parking, blah, blah, > blah. So, yeah, I guess it's only fair that they care about the bottom > line, and that I should care about that, too. Don't get me wrong... I gripe > and complain about stuff just like the next guy (hey, we're human) and I > still maintain that proper planning and proper resources will result in > high quality product, but I know that, just as *I* seek a balanced > checkbook every month, so does my employer. > > Chuckling, feeling like I've gotten into something I didn't mean to get > into (what was the topic--page reflow??), and ready to react to those who > wonder "Where the heck did this former lurker come from??!!, > > Larry Baker > Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:16:45 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Craig: I have being trying to e-mail you back but have been unsuccessful. Is your e-mail address: lastword@il.net (i - l) or lastword@i1.net (i - one) Anyway, thanks for the information about the indexers' meeting. If it occurs on April 15th, I will not be able to make it. If it occurs that Friday (during the day?) or the Thursday evening before (the 16th), I can probably make it. Let me know. In either case, if I cannot make the meeting, maybe you and I can meet up somewhere? Let me know about that also. see ya Rob 773.761.4381 Craig Brown wrote: > On 3/24/98 14:34 Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > > >Chuckling, feeling like I've gotten into something I didn't mean to get > >into (what was the topic--page reflow??), and ready to react to those who > >wonder "Where the heck did this former lurker come from??!!, > > Larry... > > Don't beat up on yourself. There are many among us who appreciate the > editorial voice. > > Craig Brown > > ========================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing > (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword > ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:52:16 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Embedded indexing codes--eliminating for editing Hi all, Can anyone help Jane here (below). She is on a different list (editing) that I participate in and has a question that relates closely to the embedded indexing thread we had recently. Thanks. Dan From: "J. Lyle" An author who is currently unreachable sent us his files in Word 5.1A for the Mac. But he ran an index from the files and then forgot to turn off or erase his indexing codes. So when the files were converted, those codes came along, and now every paragraph is full of them--e.g., a sentence that should read "There is a great correlation between professional sports and music" now reads "There is a great correlation between .i.Sport: Professional;professional sports and music." Does anyone know how to turn off this feature or automatically get rid of these indexing codes if we go back to his disks and start all over? Or am I really going to have to do a manual search for .i. and strip every one of these out by hand? Thanks! Jane Lyle Indiana University Press jlyle@indiana.edu -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Dan Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing and Editing Services http://WFWIndex.necaweb.com/ Woodstock, CT, USA -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:06:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rj2km Subject: Re: Unsubcribe Please delete my name in the listserv ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:41:12 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: OK: A Fresh Challenge You were looking for a challenge today, weren't you? 1. So -- how would you index: two men with the same name in a two generational biography - both went by Will unless they were seen together, and both have a lot of subentries William Jones Smith (Will, William) William Jones Smith II (Will, William, Willie) James King of William (murdered San Francisco editor) James Ben Ali Haggin Alexander Leigh Henry Leith, Lord Burgh of Northcourt Elizabeth Rose Vincent, Leith's wife Lord and Lady Ardiluan, of the Guinness family Henry Van Brunt Eamon de Valera (Irish president) Eugene de Salba Crazy Horse King Philip (Wampanoag tribe leader) Chief Massasoit, the late father of King Philip (above) Chief Mayo, with a very indirect connection to a tribe 2. Let's assume that each member of the following categories has its own listing. Would you or would you not also gather the names of 14 fancy mansions under the category "mansions" 22 sailing ships under the category "ships" 19 huge dams under the category "dams" 15 competitors under the category "water and electric companies" The lists would have about 30 different locators if the individual names were not used as subentries to break up the list. Let's pretend that one reader is interested in dams (ships/mansions/whatever) and would like to know which dams (ships/mansions/whatever) are discussed in this historical biography. A double-posting of dams (ships/mansions/whatever) by name AND by category in this biography would be useful to that reader, but is that one (?) reader worth a minimum of 74 more lines in my index - or is this particular reader too dam (ship/mansion/whatever) many times removed? Besides, where does one stop? I could create more double-posted lists of architects, musicians, rivers, mines, people at funerals, and members of clubs for the same index... ( Martha Osgood ) Back Words Indexing ( index@teleport.com C\__/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:49:48 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Larry Baker writes: ---- Whether a reflow affects one page or the whole book, it's the publisher's responsibility to make those pagination changes. Usually we do it ourselves. Sometimes we send it back to the indexer. ---- The misconception here is the mistaken belief that a publisher is able to make the necessary changes in the index. Let us say that a paragraph has been rewritten on p. 32 and that all the material from p. 32 to p. 38 has been shifted by (say) half a dozen lines. How is the publisher to know which entries in the index are affected? No doubt by scanning the pages you can pick out some proper names and look for them in the index. Perhaps there will be a section heading or subheading that offers a few more clues. But the only sure way is to examine all the locators in every entry to see if they refer to any of the pages between p. 32 and p. 38. No in-house person is going to attempt to do that. It's not worth the bother. But an indexer with the appropriate software can make all the necessary adjustments accurately and swiftly. HyperIndex, for example, lets you print out a list of all the entries referring to pp. 32-38, so that you can compare them with the new set of proofs. No doubt Cindex and other indexing programs have similar capabilities. But without such software an in-house editor (or anyone else) will be reduced to guesswork in trying to find out where changes need to be made. I make a point of telling my clients that I need to be sent revised proofs of any pages that are altered after I have been sent proofs for indexing, and in all but a very few instances they have agreed to do so (and, if necessary, done so). From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:05:40 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: OK: A Fresh Challenge Martha: Thanks for the challenge. I'll take a look at these later today and e-mail you back as soon as I have completed the "test". Rob 773.761.4381 Martha Osgood wrote: > You were looking for a challenge today, weren't you? > > 1. So -- how would you index: > two men with the same name in a two generational biography - both went by > Will unless they were seen together, and both have a lot of subentries > William Jones Smith (Will, William) > William Jones Smith II (Will, William, Willie) > > James King of William (murdered San Francisco editor) > James Ben Ali Haggin > Alexander Leigh Henry Leith, Lord Burgh of Northcourt > Elizabeth Rose Vincent, Leith's wife > Lord and Lady Ardiluan, of the Guinness family > Henry Van Brunt > Eamon de Valera (Irish president) > Eugene de Salba > Crazy Horse > King Philip (Wampanoag tribe leader) > Chief Massasoit, the late father of King Philip (above) > Chief Mayo, with a very indirect connection to a tribe > > 2. Let's assume that each member of the following categories has its own > listing. Would you or would you not also gather the names of > 14 fancy mansions under the category "mansions" > 22 sailing ships under the category "ships" > 19 huge dams under the category "dams" > 15 competitors under the category "water and electric companies" > The lists would have about 30 different locators if the individual names > were not used as subentries to break up the list. Let's pretend that one > reader is interested in dams (ships/mansions/whatever) and would like to > know which dams (ships/mansions/whatever) are discussed in this historical > biography. A double-posting of dams (ships/mansions/whatever) by name AND > by category in this biography would be useful to that reader, but is that > one (?) reader worth a minimum of 74 more lines in my index - or is this > particular reader too dam (ship/mansion/whatever) many times removed? > Besides, where does one stop? I could create more double-posted lists of > architects, musicians, rivers, mines, people at funerals, and members of > clubs for the same index... > > ( > Martha Osgood ) > Back Words Indexing ( > index@teleport.com C\__/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:32:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bruce Clingaman Subject: unsubscribe Please delete my name from the listserv. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:01:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman Subject: Ergonomic Check-Up A different question for all ......... A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. She posed the question humorously, but then again ........ where does one go for an "ergonomic check-up"? Does one expect a general practitioner physician to have this knowledge (I wonder!), or are there specialists? Just wondering ......... Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:26:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up My greatest success has been with a chiropractor. They have been able to realign what has been stressed by overwork & also offered exercises to reduce the likelihood of continuing problems. For what is it worth, I moved from a mouse to a trackball & found it reduced the strain on my fingers, arm & shoulder. Nancy >A different question for all ......... > >A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer >for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. >Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. > >She posed the question humorously, but then again ........ where does one go >for an "ergonomic check-up"? Does one expect a general practitioner physician >to have this knowledge (I wonder!), or are there specialists? > >Just wondering ......... > >Janet Perlman >Southwest Indexing > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:40:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen W Ochej Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up I would recommend going to an orthopedist for an evaluation. NIH lists clinical trials on the internet and it might be worthwhile to see if a clinical trial is ongoing concerning this problem. I believe that there is one on carpal tunnel going on right now for patients undergoing active treatment. Chair height and desk height come to mind as a variables for adjustment. A good friend of mine with a bad back problem found that an acupunturist was able to get her back to normal function without pain quicker and less invasivelly than traditional medical solutions. A referral to a competent acupuncurist is important. Medical insurance does not cover acupuncture in all states of the union and it can get expensive because the acupuncturist requires regular follow-up visits over an extended period of time. Usually these kind of problems fit into the realm of occcupational medicine. Unfortunately, occupational medicine practitioners usually work for large corporations. Running a search on PubMed might be helpful for gathering information on this topic. At 10:01 25-03-98 EST, you wrote: >A different question for all ......... > >A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer >for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. >Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. > >She posed the question humorously, but then again ........ where does one go >for an "ergonomic check-up"? Does one expect a general practitioner physician >to have this knowledge (I wonder!), or are there specialists? > >Just wondering ......... > >Janet Perlman >Southwest Indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In the DC area, there is a chain of stores called Joanne's Bed and Back (Store.) Some of their ads say that they will come to you with a selection of back-friendly furniture etc. to try. There may be similar businesses in other metropolitan areas. I don't know whether they will come to a private address or single-employee company, but it might be worth asking. If I understand the question correctly, Janet, your friend is looking for a way to check the actual work environment as well as physical habits that may be affecting the back. In addition to Nancy Guenther's suggestion, your friend might try contacting people who teach the Alexander technique and/or Feldenkrais. While neither of those techniques directly addresses the ergonomic working environment (AFAIK), they do address posture and habitual movement. Practitioners of either technique might also know of people or places where an "ergonomic checkup" of the work environment might be available. Kara Pekar (who is about to be addressing the same problem in her own office!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:14:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGWeaver Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In a message dated 98-03-25 10:09:18 EST, you write: << A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. >> I developed the same problem a few months ago (coincidentally while indexing material on massage therapy!), to the point that sitting at a keyboard was agony. I found a licensed massage therapist thru a local massage school. It took exactly ONE treatment to get me functioning normally again, with a full range of shoulder and neck motion. Since then, every time my shoulders, neck, and back start tightening up (which is about once a month), I visit my therapist and am back in business. Check out the American Massage Therapy Assn web site at for advice on how to locate a qualified/licensed massage therapist. Massage therapy is often covered by health insurance if prescribed by a physician; depends on your state and your health plan. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:14:37 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up Nancy A. Guenther wrote: > > My greatest success has been with a chiropractor. They have been able to > realign what has been stressed by overwork & also offered exercises to > reduce the likelihood of continuing problems. > > For what is it worth, I moved from a mouse to a trackball & found it reduced > the strain on my fingers, arm & shoulder. > > Nancy > As with everything, your mileage may vary. I'm in my early 30's, a former runner/triathlete, very healthy. I went to a chiropractor last summer for lower back pain (a mild sciatic pain) that was somehat chronic and annoying, but not debilitating. I visited him on Monday, Wed. and Fri. On Monday he easily diagnosed the problem, "manipulated" me, gave me a massage and sent me home. He did the same on Wed. On Fri. I woke with more pain than before. I thought the massage might help and so did he. By the time I finished the visit, I could not stand upright. I left on crutches and went straight to my doctor. I was hospitalized for two days with nerve-related muscle cramps (on morphine--no effect on the pain, but a strange floating sensation and fogginess) in bed for almost a month and had surgery to remove a herniated disc in late September. I'm still feeling some pain in my foot from the nerve damage from time to time. Proceed slowly is my advice. My recovery from surgery was greatly aided by physical therapy, which I had to practically demand (surgeons think they can fix it all). The exercises were low impact, designed to strengthen the abdominal and back support muscles. Physicians have their own belief systems and will steer patients into treatments without explaining other options (they're not evil, just human). Get a second opinion and explore your options -- educate yourself. Well that's the end of my rant. Hope all turns out well. Dan -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Dan Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing and Editing Services http://WFWIndex.necaweb.com/ Woodstock, CT, USA -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:41:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: FrameMaker keyboard macros In-Reply-To: <199803231952.LAA21204@mail-gw5.pacbell.net> At 02:56 PM 3/23/98 -0500, Seth wrote: >Lynn wrote: >> That's the amazing thing about FrameMaker, it's so powerful and versatile, >> yet they forgot a little but important thing like enabling the creation of >> keyboard macros. ;-D > >Actually, I learned only a few days ago that you can use keyboard macros >with FrameMaker. I'm not very good at it yet, but I can get you started. >Under the File menu, choose the Utilities submenu and select Keyboard Macros. >>From there, you're on your own. :-) and at 09:17 PM 3/23/98 -0800, Joel wrote: >Lynn, > >I am using Framemaker for an embedded index, and find that I can use >keyboard macros for text in the marker window. Am I missing something? >Is there a "tip" here worthwhile for index-l? Hi Seth and Joel, I was on my first cup of coffee when I read your posts, so I thought this was just me. My face flushing with embarrassment over posting misinformation, I brought up FrameMaker and looked under the File/Utilities submenu as Seth suggested. There wasn't a menu item for creating macros. My Utilities submenu only had menu items for comparing documents, document reports, or for converting them to HTML. I looked through all the other menus and couldn't find anything. I looked in the online "help". Nada. I looked in the manual. Niente. Now that I'm on my second cup of coffee, I'm posting this question. Are we all talking about version 5.1.1? (My version 4 is zipped and is hiding somewhere on my hard disk. I couldn't find anything in FM 5+SGML either. And hubby zipped or deleted everything I created in FrameBuilder, so the Utilities submenu is grayed out with no document loaded.) I'm not at all saying you're wrong, Seth, but just want to make sure we're both on the same page (or that I don't have something reallllly big to complain to Adobe about ;-D). Yes, Joel, this would be a tip for Index-L since this is where I posted apparently erroneous information. Even though I've found workarounds for using macros in FM (by programming the keyboard or using Keyboard Express), I'd still like to know how to do this in FrameMaker itself. Also, since Frame/Adobe seems to have really buried this info, I'm sure there are other indexers out there who would appreciate being able to automate insertion of building blocks into index markers without having to run a third-party TSR. Thanks in advance! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:32:45 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In-Reply-To: <199803251509.HAA15291@firewall.persistence.com> At 10:01 AM 3/25/98 EST, Janet wrote: >She posed the question humorously, but then again ........ where does one go >for an "ergonomic check-up"? Does one expect a general practitioner physician >to have this knowledge (I wonder!), or are there specialists? The internet is a great resource for info on RSI and ergonomically correct posture, techniques and equipment. As far as practitioners, it's best to shop around for an MD, Chiropractor or PT who has experience with these conditions. It is not always easy to find the right practitioner -- perservere! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Lindsay Gower lindsay@persistence.com -or- Lindsay.Gower@persistence.com Technical Writer Persistence Software, Inc. 1720 So. Amphlett Blvd #300 San Mateo CA (650) 372-3606 http://www.persistence.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:35:31 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: For those who index history/literary theory In-Reply-To: <199803250521.XAA27525@mixcom.mixcom.com> >>These theories (philosophies, if you will) were originally generated by >>French philosophers like Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, and others who >>apparently were influenced by such philosophers as Martin Heidegger and >>Friedrich Nietzsche. In turn, these theories were taken up by literary >>critics and other academics, who expanded the original ideas into nearly all >>areas of academic writing. We as indexers are seeing the results of the >>second tier of thinkers who are applying the original (philosophical) >>theories in some of the books we are indexing today (unfortunately). >> >>Yes, most traditional academics do not want to have anything to do with >>these theories at all. Windschuttle makes that very clear in his book, The >>Killing of History. Yes, I should have specified that I was referring to the Western analytic philosophic tradition rather than Continental philosophy. It reminds me how glad I am to have studied phil. here in the U.S., where the Continental stuff--which all reads like free association to me--was available but not required. Some of my editors, when they approach me with a philosophy or lit crit book are quick to point out that the poststructuralist trend in writing is waning. Let's hope they're right. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:01:48 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up You might check out Physical Therapists as there are some who will come out and check your work environment as well. There are some web sites like ErgoWeb that might have more information. Roberta Horowitz At 10:01 AM 3/25/98 EST, you wrote: >A different question for all ......... > >A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer >for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. >Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:05:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW Subject: Washington, DC Chapter, ASI -- 20th Anniversary Reminder REMINDER ----- REMINDER ----- REMINDER Washington, DC Chapter American Society of Indexers 20th Anniversary Celebration Where We've Been -- Where We're Going: From CRT to the Internet Saturday, April 4, 1998 9:00 am -- 4:00 pm Embassy Suites Old Town Alexandria, VA Highlights Keynote Speaker, Ron Dunn, President, Information Industry Association, and former indexer, "Confronting the Future: Bracing for the Brave New Information World" Indexers Panel with USDA instructor Vicky Agee, long-time indexer Susan Lohmeyer, Wilson Award-winner Jeanne Moody, Chapter Secretary Richard Shrout, and moderated by past Chair L. Pilar Wyman Great Moments in Indexing Dorothy Thomas, ASI's oral historian, will interview officers and member s who have been active from the start, including first DC/ASI Chapter Chair Jolene Blozis, Vicky Agee, Jane Maddocks, and Enid Zafran Publishers Panel with Mary Ann Chulick, West Group, Nancy Davidson, Brookings Institution, and others, and moderated by past Chair Enid Zafran Annual Business Meeting Drawing for a free airplane trip to the annual meeting in Seattle, WA Software Demos: Cindex, SkyIndex, and Macrex How to get there Embassy Suites is at 1900 Diagonal Road in Alexandria, VA, 703/684-5900. Directly across the street is the King Street Metro Station, served by both the blue and yellow lines. By car, from the south, take I-95 North to Capital Beltway exit 2B, Telegraph Road. Take exit 236 East to Alexandria, and then left at the 3rd light onto Diagonal Road. The hotel will be on your right. From the north, take I-95 South across the Woodrow Wilson Bridge to exit 1, Route 1, to North Alexandria. At the 4th light turn left onto Duke Street, then right at the 4th light onto Daingerfield. Turn left at the 2nd light onto Diagonal Road. The hotel will be on your left. Parking at the hotel garage is $2/day. Pay as you leave. For more information contact Chair-Elect Mike Bernier at mbernier@bna.com or 202/452-6395 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ Registration Form Fee: $45/members, $55/nonmembers, lunch included. Send checks made out to "Washington, DC Chapter, ASI" to: Mike Bernier, The Bureau of National Affairs, 1231 25th Street, N.W., Room N-464, Washington, DC 20037 by March 25, 1998. Name Telephone Mailing address E-mail Dietary Restrictions/Vegetarian? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:42:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Simon Cauchi writes: "The misconception here [re: my comment that it is the publisher's responsibility to make pagination changes] is the mistaken belief that a publisher is able to make the necessary changes in the index. Let us say that a paragraph has been rewritten on p. 32 and that all the material from p. 32 to p. 38 has been shifted by (say) half a dozen lines. How is the publisher to know which entries in the index are affected? No doubt by scanning the pages you can pick out some proper names and look for them in the index. Perhaps there will be a section heading or subheading that offers a few more clues. But the only sure way is to examine all the locators in every entry to see if they refer to any of the pages between p. 32 and p. 38. No in-house person is going to attempt to do that. It's not worth the bother." Well, I beg to differ. Obviously, I can't speak for other publishers, but we DO check all locators in this kind of situation. Again, at reference publishers anyway, the index is God. And, as a matter of fact, we're currently working on a book where some reflows happened and we're doing EXACTLY what Simon says we wouldn't be bothered doing. (I spent all last Sunday working on this ... missed the NCAAs, so, yes, it's important!!) Actually, the process itself is pretty simple (though, yes, it's time-consuming). We compare first-pass pages with second-pass pages. On the first pass pages affected by the reflow, we clearly show which lines are still on p. X, and which have reflowed to another page (or pages, if you've introduced, say, a 3/4-page image box). Then, we go to the index file--in this case, the CINDEX-generated index was submitted to us in Word, which we then converted to WordPerfect 5.1, because doing searches is SOOOOOOOO much easier with an F2 key then it is clicking a mouse back and forth between text and index box--and search for "space [page number]"--"space" so that if we're searching for p. 42, we don't also pick up 142, 242, 342, etc. At each stop, we make a quick check of the first pass pages to see if the text being cited has moved to a different page. If it has, we make the correction in the index file; if it hasn't changed, cool. Well, anyway, you get the idea. We DO do this. Indexes matter. We take the time. I know what Simon is talking about, too, though, cuz we've had indexers print out their CINDEX files. But sometimes this is not an option ... maybe we're only days away from the to-printer date, maybe the indexer is out of town, etc. And, again, if we're only talking about several pages strewn about the book, time is usually not an issue. Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:15:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? -Reply Just to reinforce Larry's statements, I work for a different publishing company and we do the same thing. Usually the Indexing group is asked to handle these sort of last-minute changes to the master index file, but sometimes the changes are made by the Prepress group (what in former times would have probaly been called Typesetting), depending on timing. BTW, I am SO glad to hear someone else say that doing these kind of searches is easier in WordPerfect 5.1! We are being strong-armed into switching to Word and I have been trying to diplomatically relate to The Powers That Be that, for the purposes of our common tasks, Word SUCKS!! Search and Replace is a common task and Word is not as robust. We have been covertly using WP5.1 for awhile, but we've been busted and now we're having to justify its continued use. Oh, well. One of the disadvantages of working for an evil corporate empire is that you don't always get the final say in your choice of tools. :-) C'est la vie. >>> 03/25/98 01:42pm >>> Well, I beg to differ. Obviously, I can't speak for other publishers, but we DO check all locators in this kind of situation. Again, at reference publishers anyway, the index is God. And, as a matter of fact, we're currently working on a book where some reflows happened and we're doing EXACTLY what Simon says we wouldn't be bothered doing. (I spent all last Sunday working on this ... missed the NCAAs, so, yes, it's important!!) Actually, the process itself is pretty simple (though, yes, it's time-consuming). We compare first-pass pages with second-pass pages. On the first pass pages affected by the reflow, we clearly show which lines are still on p. X, and which have reflowed to another page (or pages, if you've introduced, say, a 3/4-page image box). Then, we go to the index file--in this case, the CINDEX-generated index was submitted to us in Word, which we then converted to WordPerfect 5.1, because doing searches is SOOOOOOOO much easier with an F2 key then it is clicking a mouse back and forth between text and index box--and search for "space [page number]"--"space" so that if we're searching for p. 42, we don't also pick up 142, 242, 342, etc. At each stop, we make a quick check of the first pass pages to see if the text being cited has moved to a different page. If it has, we make the correction in the index file; if it hasn't changed, cool. Well, anyway, you get the idea. We DO do this. Indexes matter. We take the time. I know what Simon is talking about, too, though, cuz we've had indexers print out their CINDEX files. But sometimes this is not an option ... maybe we're only days away from the to-printer date, maybe the indexer is out of town, etc. And, again, if we're only talking about several pages strewn about the book, time is usually not an issue. Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:49:20 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie & Steve Rizzo Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up A general practitioner is not a good source for this kind of help. Her best bet would be either a physical therapist or someone who specializes in anatomical kinesiology. They should be able to evaluate her posture, strengths and weaknesses and through exercise and awareness (as well as maybe changing chairs, work area etc.) be able to correct her problem. Good luck. Marie Rizzo JPerlman wrote: > A different question for all ......... > > A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer > for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. > Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. > > She posed the question humorously, but then again ........ where does one go > for an "ergonomic check-up"? Does one expect a general practitioner physician > to have this knowledge (I wonder!), or are there specialists? > > Just wondering ......... > > Janet Perlman > Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:25:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AllWrite N Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up While I won't go to a chiropractor (having broken my back and suffered a badly bruised disk I don't trust anyone to 'adjust' such a delicate thing -- but that's me) I found switching to a trackball, investing in a good chair, periodic stretching and flexing and learning to recognize when I am tensing up then walking away from it have relieved 99% of my similar complaints. Good luck! Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:49:49 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? -Reply At 02:15 PM 3/25/1998 -0500, Sharon Wright wrote: >BTW, I am SO glad to hear someone else say that >doing these kind of searches is easier in WordPerfect >5.1! We are being strong-armed into switching to >Word and I have been trying to diplomatically relate to >The Powers That Be that, for the purposes of our >common tasks, Word SUCKS!! Search and Replace >is a common task and Word is not as robust. We have >been covertly using WP5.1 for awhile, but we've been >busted and now we're having to justify its continued >use. I just did this very thing for an index I'm working on...but I did it in WP 8 for Windows. It's even easier, faster, and more convenient. You can search forward AND backward from the same window, and do just about everything you want to do from that one location. You can skip mousing entirely, if you want to. I've been a loyal WP fan for about ten years, and that sort of speed and convenience is just one reason. Stage a rebellion! Wave the flag! Demand GOOD tools, like WordPerfect. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:54:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: francine cronshaw Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? -Reply In-Reply-To: With regard to Sharon Wright's observations on covert use of WP5.1, especially for search and replace and resisting the move to Word: A year or so ago one of the presses I regularly work for sent a paper survey to all the outsourcers/freelancers, basically asking which of the two was better. My emphatic comment in the bottom area for remarks was: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! And guess what? We're still submitting our work on disk in WP5.1. Francine Cronshaw East Mountain Editing Services Tijeras, New Mexico -se habla espanol- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:56:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? -Reply Sharon: Yes, yes, and yes. I used to create indices in Word Perfect 5.1 DOS until I switched to Cindex. The clients always loved the format. Word is just another power play by Bill Gates to strangle the market. Luckily, Cindex can be formatted in a number of ways allowing it to mimic Word Perfect 5.1 (which is neither Word -- thank goodness -- nor perfect -- well, who is?) Rob Sharon Wright wrote: > Just to reinforce Larry's statements, I work for a > different publishing company and we do the same > thing. Usually the Indexing group is asked to handle > these sort of last-minute changes to the master index > file, but sometimes the changes are made by the > Prepress group (what in former times would have > probaly been called Typesetting), depending on timing. > > BTW, I am SO glad to hear someone else say that > doing these kind of searches is easier in WordPerfect > 5.1! We are being strong-armed into switching to > Word and I have been trying to diplomatically relate to > The Powers That Be that, for the purposes of our > common tasks, Word SUCKS!! Search and Replace > is a common task and Word is not as robust. We have > been covertly using WP5.1 for awhile, but we've been > busted and now we're having to justify its continued > use. > > Oh, well. One of the disadvantages of working for an > evil corporate empire is that you don't always get the > final say in your choice of tools. :-) C'est la vie. > > >>> 03/25/98 01:42pm > >>> > Well, I beg to differ. Obviously, I can't speak for other > publishers, but we DO check all locators in this kind of > situation. Again, at reference publishers anyway, the > index is God. And, as a matter of fact, we're currently > working on a book where some reflows happened and > we're doing > EXACTLY what Simon says we wouldn't be bothered > doing. (I spent all last > Sunday working on this ... missed the NCAAs, so, yes, > it's important!!) > > Actually, the process itself is pretty simple (though, > yes, it's time-consuming). We compare first-pass > pages with second-pass pages. On the first pass > pages affected by the reflow, we clearly show which > lines are still on p. X, and which have reflowed to > another page (or pages, if you've introduced, say, a > 3/4-page image box). Then, we go to the index file--in > this case, the CINDEX-generated index was submitted > to us in Word, which we then converted to > WordPerfect 5.1, because doing searches is > SOOOOOOOO much easier with an F2 key then it is > clicking a mouse back and forth between text and > index box--and search for "space [page > number]"--"space" so that if we're searching for p. 42, > we don't also pick up 142, 242, 342, etc. At each stop, > we make a quick check of the first pass pages to see if > the text being cited has moved to a different page. If it > has, we make the correction in the index file; if it hasn't > changed, cool. > > Well, anyway, you get the idea. We DO do this. > Indexes matter. We take the time. > > I know what Simon is talking about, too, though, cuz > we've had indexers print out their CINDEX files. But > sometimes this is not an option ... maybe we're only > days away from the to-printer date, maybe the indexer > is out of town, etc. And, again, if we're only talking > about several pages strewn about the book, time is > usually not an issue. > > Larry Baker > Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:06:37 +0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? -Reply In-Reply-To: <98Mar25.155943-0500_est.53320-328998+56@email.unc.edu> Yes! Let's hear it for WordPerfect 5.1. It's the coke classic of word processing. I have started using 8 for Windows to downloand from Cindex into and am pretty happy with it, especially with being able to retain the same keyboard, but WordPerfect 5.1 is a really great tool and deserves to be around for a long time. ________________________________________________________________________ Roberta Engleman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:11:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Page proof The "page proof" thread is starting to morph into "Wordperfect vs. Word." Truth of the matter is not that Word sucks (never liked that word in polite company, but it's been used in previous messages) and Wordperfect doesn't, but perhaps that Wordperfect sucks less than Word. We all have preferences for the tools we've chosen; that doesn't mean that those tools are necessarily superior to the ones we haven't chosen. Just my 2 cents' worth. I'll crawl back into my cave now.... John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:54:19 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Larry: I agree with you in this wholeheartedly. I have a question, though. I hope I can ask it. You talk about using indexers. I am sure you have an entire retinue of them you use. If you can use another freelance indexer, proofreader, or editor, then can I send along my resume to you, etc.? And, if so, where would I send it to? I hope these questions do not seem too intrusive. Thanks. Robert 773.761.4381 Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > Simon Cauchi writes: > > "The misconception here [re: my comment that it is the publisher's > responsibility to make pagination changes] is the mistaken belief that a > publisher is able to > make the necessary changes in the index. Let us say that a paragraph has > been rewritten on p. 32 and that all the material from p. 32 to p. 38 has > been shifted by (say) half a dozen lines. How is the publisher to know > which entries in the index are affected? No doubt by scanning the pages you > can pick out some proper names and look for them in the index. Perhaps > there will be a section heading or subheading that offers a few more clues. > But the only sure way is to examine all the locators in every entry to see > if they refer to any of the pages between p. 32 and p. 38. No in-house > person is going to attempt to do that. It's not worth the bother." > > Well, I beg to differ. Obviously, I can't speak for other publishers, but > we DO check all locators in this kind of situation. Again, at reference > publishers anyway, the index is God. And, as a matter of fact, we're > currently working on a book where some reflows happened and we're doing > EXACTLY what Simon says we wouldn't be bothered doing. (I spent all last > Sunday working on this ... missed the NCAAs, so, yes, it's important!!) > > Actually, the process itself is pretty simple (though, yes, it's > time-consuming). We compare first-pass pages with second-pass pages. On the > first pass pages affected by the reflow, we clearly show which lines are > still on p. X, and which have reflowed to another page (or pages, if you've > introduced, say, a 3/4-page image box). Then, we go to the index file--in > this case, the CINDEX-generated index was submitted to us in Word, which we > then converted to WordPerfect 5.1, because doing searches is SOOOOOOOO much > easier with an F2 key then it is clicking a mouse back and forth between > text and index box--and search for "space [page number]"--"space" so that > if we're searching for p. 42, we don't also pick up 142, 242, 342, etc. At > each stop, we make a quick check of the first pass pages to see if the text > being cited has moved to a different page. If it has, we make the > correction in the index file; if it hasn't changed, cool. > > Well, anyway, you get the idea. We DO do this. Indexes matter. We take the > time. > > I know what Simon is talking about, too, though, cuz we've had indexers > print out their CINDEX files. But sometimes this is not an option ... maybe > we're only days away from the to-printer date, maybe the indexer is out of > town, etc. And, again, if we're only talking about several pages strewn > about the book, time is usually not an issue. > > Larry Baker > Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Word vs. WordPerfect I agree that there's two sides to everything. There are some things I like about Word that you don't get with WP. (We had gotten to WP6.1 before the quasi-switch to Word, so I'm not familiar with any of the WP versions beyond that.) To me, though, the question ultimately isn't so much a Word/WordPerfect thing, but a DOS/Windows thing. Certain things that I do over and over and over again (searches, simple macros, etc.), I overwhelmingly prefer in the old DOS environment. Repeatedly pushing F2 F2 F2 F2 (for searching) is far more efficient than Move Mouse, Point, Click (oops, missed the click ... do it again ... oops, moved it too far again). When I need to do things repeatedly (and, editorially speaking, there's always a laundry list of things to check... chapter by chapter), my mind works better with rote functions: I'm making this up, but let's say I needed to search for a font code... my fingers would almost work faster than my brain at hitting combinations of function keys, shift keys, and Alt keys. With the mouse, well, I've got to move it around, click on the pull-down menus, click again, move in and out of different boxes, etc. Don't get me wrong. I definitely like the Windows environment. There's a lot of the old DOS environment that now seems antiquated to me. And I love my smarticons and button bars and stuff. But we editorial types love our WP5.1 when managing our manuscripts. Here's a point someone told me that helps explain the conceptual difference between the two: There's a difference in design philosophy between the two programs. WordPerfect assumes you want to format after you key, and that you'll be tinkering (which we do a lot of)--therefore it gives you tools to do that easily. Word assumes you want to format as you go and to have as much done automatically as possible. (For instance, it assumes that if you used a bullet on the first line, you'll want it on the next line.) Therefore it hides the tools. (I hate the fact that there's no Reveal Codes in Word.) That might be oversimplifying it, but that generally gets at the differences that I've observed. Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:44:56 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect Larry: But you don't need any reveal codes in Word since the toolbars reveal everything that was normally in the reveal codes for WordPerfect. Why duplicate what does not need duplicating? Rob Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > I agree that there's two sides to everything. There are some things I like > about Word that you don't get with WP. (We had gotten to WP6.1 before the > quasi-switch to Word, so I'm not familiar with any of the WP versions > beyond that.) > > To me, though, the question ultimately isn't so much a Word/WordPerfect > thing, but a DOS/Windows thing. Certain things that I do over and over and > over again (searches, simple macros, etc.), I overwhelmingly prefer in the > old DOS environment. Repeatedly pushing F2 F2 F2 F2 (for searching) is far > more efficient than Move Mouse, Point, Click (oops, missed the click ... do > it again ... oops, moved it too far again). When I need to do things > repeatedly (and, editorially speaking, there's always a laundry list of > things to check... chapter by chapter), my mind works better with rote > functions: I'm making this up, but let's say I needed to search for a font > code... my fingers would almost work faster than my brain at hitting > combinations of function keys, shift keys, and Alt keys. With the mouse, > well, I've got to move it around, click on the pull-down menus, click > again, move in and out of different boxes, etc. > > Don't get me wrong. I definitely like the Windows environment. There's a > lot of the old DOS environment that now seems antiquated to me. And I love > my smarticons and button bars and stuff. But we editorial types love our > WP5.1 when managing our manuscripts. > > Here's a point someone told me that helps explain the conceptual difference > between the two: There's a difference in design philosophy between the two > programs. WordPerfect assumes you want to format after you key, and that > you'll be tinkering (which we do a lot of)--therefore it gives you tools to > do that easily. Word assumes you want to format as you go and to have as > much done automatically as possible. (For instance, it assumes that if you > used a bullet on the first line, you'll want it on the next line.) > Therefore it hides the tools. (I hate the fact that there's no Reveal Codes > in Word.) > > That might be oversimplifying it, but that generally gets at the > differences that I've observed. > > Larry Baker > Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:58:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect Rob said: But you don't need any reveal codes in Word since the toolbars reveal everything that was normally in the reveal codes for WordPerfect. Why duplicate what does not need duplicating? OK, I'll bite, but, um, I better get back to work pretty soon!! Say I accidentally clicked on something and it changed the appearance of my text. With Reveal Codes, you can see what it is you just keyed in. ("Oh... I see, I accidentally inserted the center justification kerning macro code. ;>) Let me delete that code. Great! Everything's back in order.") In Word, when I want to change something that I don't want, I've got to block the whole thing, create what it is I DO want to happen.... I don't know how to explain it. It's oftentimes easier to UNDO something then it is to change it. And with WordPerfect, you can undo something by simply deleting the code that you can see with Reveal Codes. You can't do that in Word. Can somebody else out there help me with this explanation? OK, I've GOT to get some work done!!!! Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:23:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Melissa C. Moore" <55742@PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET> Organization: Middle Georgia College Subject: Unsubscribe Please unsubscribe me from this listserv. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Word vs. WordPerfect -Reply One other difference between the two is that WordPerfect, as written, can be used as a substitute for a programming language. It is "macro-based," so it allows you to do the tinkering by providing codes which can be searched upon. Word is not macro-based and most of the codes are hidden. Even though there are keystrokes to duplicate the F2 functionality, I agree that it just isn't as easy or as friendly to use when you have to do repetitive tasks or if you have a very large document to search (for some reason, WP handles really big documents-- 1,000 pages or so-- much better. It's not a hardware issue because my computer is a Pentium 166 with 64MB of RAM, which is four times more than Microsoft claims that Word needs!). There are some things about Word and the other Microsoft Office products that I like, but for some functions WP is just better. A programmer friend of mine described it like this: Word was not designed to do anything except basic word processing. WordPerfect, while designed as a word processors, has allowed its users to go beyond conventional word processing and actually write mini programs that WP can incorporate into document. This is a very difficult feature to replace once you've gotten used to it! And incidentally, I apologize if I offended anyone with my choice of language earlier. I am aware that while "sucks" is one of those words (like "shmuck") whose meaning has morphed into common usage and for many has lost its original, vaguely obscene, definition, some people still find it objectionable. I should have been more careful. -- Sharon W. >>> 03/25/98 04:43pm >>> I agree that there's two sides to everything. There are some things I like about Word that you don't get with WP. (We had gotten to WP6.1 before the quasi-switch to Word, so I'm not familiar with any of the WP versions beyond that.) To me, though, the question ultimately isn't so much a Word/WordPerfect thing, but a DOS/Windows thing. Certain things that I do over and over and over again (searches, simple macros, etc.), I overwhelmingly prefer in the old DOS environment. Repeatedly pushing F2 F2 F2 F2 (for searching) is far more efficient than Move Mouse, Point, Click (oops, missed the click ... do it again ... oops, moved it too far again). When I need to do things repeatedly (and, editorially speaking, there's always a laundry list of things to check... chapter by chapter), my mind works better with rote functions: I'm making this up, but let's say I needed to search for a font code... my fingers would almost work faster than my brain at hitting combinations of function keys, shift keys, and Alt keys. With the mouse, well, I've got to move it around, click on the pull-down menus, click again, move in and out of different boxes, etc. Don't get me wrong. I definitely like the Windows environment. There's a lot of the old DOS environment that now seems antiquated to me. And I love my smarticons and button bars and stuff. But we editorial types love our WP5.1 when managing our manuscripts. Here's a point someone told me that helps explain the conceptual difference between the two: There's a difference in design philosophy between the two programs. WordPerfect assumes you want to format after you key, and that you'll be tinkering (which we do a lot of)--therefore it gives you tools to do that easily. Word assumes you want to format as you go and to have as much done automatically as possible. (For instance, it assumes that if you used a bullet on the first line, you'll want it on the next line.) Therefore it hides the tools. (I hate the fact that there's no Reveal Codes in Word.) That might be oversimplifying it, but that generally gets at the differences that I've observed. Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:03:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect -Reply No, it doesn't. I will be happy to enlighten you off list (since this is getting pretty far afield) if you really want to know what it is that Word doesn't do, but trust me on this one. Even the Microsoft people told us that it doesn't. -- Sharon W. >>> Robert <> 03/25/98 04:44pm >>> Larry: But you don't need any reveal codes in Word since the toolbars reveal everything that was normally in the reveal codes for WordPerfect. Why duplicate what does not need duplicating? Rob Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > I agree that there's two sides to everything. There are some things I like > about Word that you don't get with WP. (We had gotten to WP6.1 before the > quasi-switch to Word, so I'm not familiar with any of the WP versions > beyond that.) > > To me, though, the question ultimately isn't so much a Word/WordPerfect > thing, but a DOS/Windows thing. Certain things that I do over and over and > over again (searches, simple macros, etc.), I overwhelmingly prefer in the > old DOS environment. Repeatedly pushing F2 F2 F2 F2 (for searching) is far > more efficient than Move Mouse, Point, Click (oops, missed the click ... do > it again ... oops, moved it too far again). When I need to do things > repeatedly (and, editorially speaking, there's always a laundry list of > things to check... chapter by chapter), my mind works better with rote > functions: I'm making this up, but let's say I needed to search for a font > code... my fingers would almost work faster than my brain at hitting > combinations of function keys, shift keys, and Alt keys. With the mouse, > well, I've got to move it around, click on the pull-down menus, click > again, move in and out of different boxes, etc. > > Don't get me wrong. I definitely like the Windows environment. There's a > lot of the old DOS environment that now seems antiquated to me. And I love > my smarticons and button bars and stuff. But we editorial types love our > WP5.1 when managing our manuscripts. > > Here's a point someone told me that helps explain the conceptual difference > between the two: There's a difference in design philosophy between the two > programs. WordPerfect assumes you want to format after you key, and that > you'll be tinkering (which we do a lot of)--therefore it gives you tools to > do that easily. Word assumes you want to format as you go and to have as > much done automatically as possible. (For instance, it assumes that if you > used a bullet on the first line, you'll want it on the next line.) > Therefore it hides the tools. (I hate the fact that there's no Reveal Codes > in Word.) > > That might be oversimplifying it, but that generally gets at the > differences that I've observed. > > Larry Baker > Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:13:34 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SCTopping Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect Perhaps I've missed it, but I haven't seen mentioned one of the greatest features of WordPerfect 5.1 -- the ability to create macros to make corrections. Those annoying codes that popped up in the document originally referred to would have been gone in a matter of seconds. It is just a matter of searching for the pattern (.i.), blocking to the end code (;) and deleting the entire block. Once the macro is written (2 minutes) one turns it loose and the corrections are done seconds later. Unfortunately, versions of WP numbered 6.0 and up haven't lived up to my highest expectation -- a program that does what I want it to do without ANNOYING me in the process. I refer to anything 6.0 and beyond as WordImperfect, and I'm still using 5.1 for DOS -- it's what my clients prefer. Sandy Topping ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: WP 5.1 (was Page Proofs) Jee, I thought I was the only holdout. I can't print from WP 5.1 to an HP Deskjet 722c through Windows NT, or I'd still be in DOS land. (As an aside, can anyone out in Index-L land help me achieve this and restore my sanity?) Now, who's for killing the damn paperclip and getting direct answers from Word help? I hate the paper clip (it should take over Bill Gate's brain)! If I want personality in my computer software, I'll buy a virtual dog. Shelley ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:36:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AllWrite N Subject: Re: WP 5.1 (was Page Proofs) Shelley, The paperclip can be eliminated -- it involves resetting your user preferences. You can find other animated characters to substitute or you can simply change it to the Microsoft puzzlepiece logo (appropriate, huh?) and then set your preference so that it doesn't automatically appear every time you do something. It will still show up when you do F1 or click on Help, but you can then close it after you get your solution. I haven't had a chance to see if you can totally eliminate it, but this is a whole lot better than the alternative of the 'wagging tail'. Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:07:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AliaMM Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up > A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer > for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. > Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. One thing that has worked for me is to switch the mouse to the other side of the keyboard when doing excessive work using the mouse. In fact, I've found that, even though I am right handed, I prefer to use the mouse with my left hand! This lets me write notes and handle papers with my right hand. I switch the mouse to the right when I find I'm doing a lot of mouse clicking and my left hand gets tired. Also, I've found that having the desk/table at the correct height makes a _big_ difference. I notice it immediately when I work on someone else's system. For me, it's best to have my hand, wrist, and forearm aligned horizontally. Your friend might try experimenting to find out what is the best orientation for her. Alia *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Alia Michaels aliamm@aol.com Freelance Technical Writer and Editor *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:07:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AliaMM Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect Larry wrote: >It's oftentimes easier to UNDO something then it is to change >it. And with WordPerfect, you can undo something by simply deleting the >code that you can see with Reveal Codes. You can't do that in Word. > >Can somebody else out there help me with this explanation? When you actually *see* the codes that impose the formatting, you can see *exactly* what needs to be changed and change it directly in the code. If you know the codes, you can read them and understand them quickly. With the graphical interface in the MacOS and Windows versions of Word and WordPerfect, in a sense you are guessing what (and where sometimes) the formatting is. You have to go back to the area in question, place the insertion point in the area, and decipher the information from the interface clues (toolbar button on/off, ruler status, etc.). That's why it's easier to Undo and then reformat -- instead of trying to decipher numerous graphical clues in various places. Alia *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Alia Michaels aliamm@aol.com Freelance Technical Writer and Editor *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In-Reply-To: <199803251624.LAA17992@ulster.net> >home. He did the same on Wed. On Fri. I woke with more pain than before. I >thought the massage might help and so did he. By the time I finished the >visit, I could not stand upright. I left on crutches and went straight to my >doctor. I was hospitalized for two days with nerve-related muscle cramps (on >morphine--no effect on the pain, but a strange floating sensation and >fogginess) in bed for almost a month and had surgery to remove a herniated >disc in late September. I'm still feeling some pain in my foot from the nerve >damage from time to time. > My rant is similar. After a couple months of back pain I went to a regular chiropractor for treatment. she "cracked" various things in a few sessions and next thing I knew I had a completely extruded disk and was out of it for several months and had to have surgery to remove the disk. Result, I still go to a chirpractor, but only to what are called "soft-touch" practitioners who don't crack things, just use various other techniques to get stuff into alignment. I also see a massage therapist regularly. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:34:56 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In-Reply-To: <199803260008.TAA07899@camel23.mindspring.com> A few years ago, Don Sellers wrote "Zap" which was about ergonomics and computer use, published by PeachPit Press. You might see if it is still out and around - I have a copy, and it outlines all kinds of things you can do to be more comfortable at the computer, and avoid RSI stuff. At 07:07 PM 3/25/98 EST, you wrote: >> A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer >> for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. >> Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. > Jan +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Jan C. Wright Wright Information Indexing Services Jancw@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:42:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Page proofs I'm glad that Larry and Sharon affirmed that the publishers they work for do such painstaking checking of index entries when locators change, and I found their contributions reassuring. Nevertheless, like Simon, I would prefer to take this responsibility myself, as indexer, if permitted. Although many publishers do value the index highly and treat any changes to it with respect, there are enough horror stories in the indexing literature--and on Index-L in the past--to justify indexers' concern when an editor is to make any amendment. I also think that with many books, especially the academic/scholarly ones dealing with ideas rather than more concrete concepts or objects, it wouldn't be easy for anyone else to link the indexers' entries to the precisely relevant part of the text. (Well, the reader/user should be able to, or the indexer has failed to be clear--but then the reader/user is approaching the index/text interface from a different point of view.) Recently the locators of several chapters of a book I was indexing were to change because of some inserted illustrative matter after the deadline for my index and just a couple of days before the print deadline. Because of lack of time, the editor wanted to make the locator changes herself in the index. To help her and to protect my work, I gave her a printout of the portion of the index pertaining to those chapters, sorted in page number order and returned my marked-up proofs to her, having revised my markup wherever I had changed the wording significantly in my final version of the index; and I numbered all the entries, from 1 to whatever, both in the part-index and on the proofs to further link the entries to the text. It may have been overkill, but I wanted to leave no area of doubt. If the book had been one of the guidebooks I sometimes index, my marked-up text would have sufficed--and even not needed. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@planet.eon.net 10979 123 Street Edmonton, AB T5M 0E1 Canada phone 403-452-8325 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:04:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect & a bouquet to Index-L I'm finding the comparisons between Word and WordPerfect illuminating and depressing, the latter because, convinced that I was the only person in the world still using WP5 (except for a couple of client-publishers, benighted souls like myself) I recently began working my way through the Word 6.0 manual, sure that I would soon wonder how on earth I could have stuck with WP5 (which I've loved using) all these years. Seriously, your observations have already clarified some areas of puzzlement, and will no doubt help me more as I persevere. And that leads me to say how much I have learned from Index-L since I began to lurk, three years ago. The discussions have been an enormous help in my own work, first as an indexer, in solving problems, in opening up new ways of working or handling some matter, or in just reassuring me that I'm not the only one in a particular situation; and second, in teaching and speaking on indexing, in broadening my perspective beyond my own perceptions and experience, just giving me so much more to impart, and with the increased conviction that comes from having "heard" it from so many other indexers. So, thanks from me to all who go to the trouble of contributing. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@planet.eon.net 10979 123 Street Edmonton, AB T5M 0E1 Canada phone 403-452-8325 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:52:13 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect Maybe all of us who still use WP51.1 and think it is great should let the company, maybe we can send them a summary of the recent posts. Companies sometimes listen to their customers. Roberta Horowitz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:24:19 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RHurd44884 Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In a message dated 98-03-25 20:52:31 EST, you write: << A few years ago, Don Sellers wrote "Zap" which was about ergonomics and computer use, published by PeachPit Press. You might see if it is still out and around - I have a copy, and it outlines all kinds of things you can do to be more comfortable at the computer, and avoid RSI stuff. >> Hello Jan, I read your postings on index-l and would like to read "Zap" written by Don Sellers. Could you please tell me how I might go about finding this. Thank you. Sincerely, Rick Hurd. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Zap book source From Amazon.com Zap How Your Computer Can Hurt You and What You Can Do About It ~ Usually ships in 24 hours Don Sellers, Stephen F. Roth (Editor) / Paperback / Published 1994 Our Price: $10.36 ~ You Save: $2.59 (20%) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect Larry wrote: > Here's a point someone told me that helps explain the conceptual difference > between the two: There's a difference in design philosophy between the two > programs. WordPerfect assumes you want to format after you key, and that > you'll be tinkering (which we do a lot of)--therefore it gives you tools to > do that easily. Word assumes you want to format as you go and to have as > much done automatically as possible. (For instance, it assumes that if you > used a bullet on the first line, you'll want it on the next line.) > Therefore it hides the tools. (I hate the fact that there's no Reveal Codes > in Word.) Actually, there is, but it's a pain to get to and it isn't as useful as the one in WP. (I have Word 97. I don't know if the following sequence is the same on previous versions of Word.) Go to the Tools icon, then choose Options, then View, then click whatever you want to see in the NonPrinting Characters box. That will turn on most of the codes. I still don't know how to see the codes for things like font size in Word. I use both Word and WP, because each has strengths. For instance, one publisher I work for wants subentries preceded by a code, rather than indented. I make a Macrex file with Tabs, bring it into Word, and use Word's Find and Replace to replace the tabs with the code, since Word has a "bank" of special characters and codes that it can use when doing F&R. I haven't figured out how to do that in WP yet; mine doesn't seem to want to accept non-printing characters in Search and Replace. It's also harder (in terms of number of clicks) to insert special characters like en dashes or diacriticals into the S&R function in WP; Word makes it somewhat easier, at least for the en dashes. However, I agree that for most things, I much prefer WP. (BTW, I'm using WP7. I did love my old WP5.1, but I haven't had any major problems with this one, and it can do some nice stuff that 5.1 didn't do.) Of course, another reason I use both is that I have publishers who prefer one or the other. No matter how good the transfer is from one to the other, something often goes slightly or not-so-slightly awry. For example, if I'm working with an index file in WP, and I've used en dashes as page number concatenators, the en dashes don't show up when I save the file in Word format -- they simply disappear. Not good! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:02:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 24 Mar 1998 to 25 Mar 1998 In-Reply-To: <199803260518.XAA03327@mixcom.mixcom.com> OK, I'll try your test. >1. So -- how would you index: >two men with the same name in a two generational biography - both went by >Will unless they were seen together, and both have a lot of subentries > William Jones Smith (Will, William) > William Jones Smith II (Will, William, Willie) I would probably add dates in parens to distinguish them: Smith, William Jones (1900-1975) Smith, William Jones, II (1925-1995) Perhaps also add their relationships to each other: (1900-1975; father); (1925-1995; son) > Any of the following that I couldn't find in the bio. dict. I would take a stab at but also query: >James King of William (murdered San Francisco editor) King, James, of William >James Ben Ali Haggin Ali Haggin, James Ben >Alexander Leigh Henry Leith, Lord Burgh of Northcourt Leith, Alexander Leigh Henry, Lord Burgh of Northcourt >Elizabeth Rose Vincent, Leith's wife Vincent, Elizabeth Rose [but did she later take the name Leith? double-post?] >Lord and Lady Ardiluan, of the Guinness family Ardiluan, Lord and Lady >Henry Van Brunt Van Brunt, Henry >Eamon de Valera (Irish president) de Valera, Eamon [listed that way in Cambridge Bio. Dict.] >Eugene de Salba de Salba, Eugene >Crazy Horse Crazy Horse >King Philip (Wampanoag tribe leader) Philip, King (Wampanoag tribe) >Chief Massasoit, the late father of King Philip (above) Massasoit, Chief (Wampanoag tribe) >Chief Mayo, with a very indirect connection to a tribe Mayo, Chief Again, I must stress that I would query all of these, except the one I actually found in the bio. dict. > >2. Let's assume that each member of the following categories has its own >listing. Would you or would you not also gather the names of > 14 fancy mansions under the category "mansions" > 22 sailing ships under the category "ships" > 19 huge dams under the category "dams" > 15 competitors under the category "water and electric companies" No, I wouldn't categorize them *unless* there was substantive discussion about the categories *per se*. For example, if there was a 20-page discussion of mansions generally, then I might list the mansions as subs (but also index them as main headings). The trouble is, everything in a book could conceivably be listed under some category or other, so I guess the rule of thumb I follow is not to go around inventing categories that the author doesn't discuss. Here's another example that might help. In a cookbook, if you wanted to, you could always pull together all the meatless recipes and list them under "vegetarian dishes." But you wouldn't do that if the author didn't treat that as a category. I'll be interested to see what other indexers will do with your list of names. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:02:18 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In-Reply-To: <199803260518.XAA03327@mixcom.mixcom.com> >A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer >for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. >Assorted complaints that relate to ergonomics more likely than not. > >She posed the question humorously, but then again ........ where does one go >for an "ergonomic check-up"? Does one expect a general practitioner physician >to have this knowledge (I wonder!), or are there specialists? Janet, there are two kinds of experts your friend might need. One to check out her body (her doctor). One to check out her office setup. I would caution against using someone who sells office furniture. There are experts who have no particular vested interest in this or that furniture; they come in and look at your office configuration and actually watch you use it. After all, you could have the most ergonomically designed chair in the world, but it won't help you if your back pain is caused by the way you reach for the telephone, or hold the receiver to your ear with your shoulder. I think it was at the Montreal ASI conference that an ergonomics expert came and talked about how important it was to look at the whole setup. Some of the solutions she suggested--covering the hard arms of desk chairs with kids' waterwings!--didn't require any special or expensive furniture. I don't know how you locate these experts, but perhaps there is a professional organization of them by now. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:06:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect From Kara: >I use both Word and WP, because each has strengths. For instance, one >publisher I work for wants subentries preceded by a code, rather than >indented. I make a Macrex file with Tabs, bring it into Word, and use >Word's Find and Replace to replace the tabs with the code, since Word has a >"bank" of special characters and codes that it can use when doing F&R. I >haven't figured out how to do that in WP yet; mine doesn't seem to want to >accept non-printing characters in Search and Replace. If I understand your description, try looking in the Match menu of the Find and Replace dialog box for WordPerfect. Clicking on "Codes" will give you a long list of codes to search for (including a box to check if you want merge codes displayed). There is a separate list in the "Match" menu if you want to insert the special code in the "Replace" field. > >Of course, another reason I use both is that I have publishers who prefer >one or the other. No matter how good the transfer is from one to the >other, something often goes slightly or not-so-slightly awry. For example, >if I'm working with an index file in WP, and I've used en dashes as page >number concatenators, the en dashes don't show up when I save the file in >Word format -- they simply disappear. Not good! Could this be a result of using different fonts in the 2 software packages? I can save a WP file in Word format (when my editors need it) & retain the en dashes. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:51:45 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman Subject: ASI Brochures available ****************************************************************************** *************** AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS ****************************************************************************** *************** For those of you who need American Society of Indexer brochures for distribution at speaking engagements, professional meetings, workshops, or to new/potential indexers ....... The ASI brochure has been reprinted and is now available from Loraine Schacher. You can request brochures from her at mms@ucla.edu Help us spread the word by making these brochures available to non-ASI folks at meetings. Janet Perlman ASI Secretary and Publicity Committee Chair ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:57:42 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? I'm very glad to know that Larry Baker, unlike some others, takes the index seriously enough to correct it if the pagination changes after the index has been submitted. But his method of doing so, by using the search facility of his wordprocessing software, is needlessly complicated and time-consuming -- as he says himself: >Actually, the process itself is pretty simple (though, yes, it's >time-consuming). We compare first-pass pages with second-pass pages. On the >first pass pages affected by the reflow, we clearly show which lines are >still on p. X, and which have reflowed to another page (or pages, if you've >introduced, say, a 3/4-page image box). Then, we go to the index file--in >this case, the CINDEX-generated index was submitted to us in Word, which we >then converted to WordPerfect 5.1, because doing searches is SOOOOOOOO much >easier with an F2 key then it is clicking a mouse back and forth between >text and index box--and search for "space [page number]"--"space" so that >if we're searching for p. 42, we don't also pick up 142, 242, 342, etc. At >each stop, we make a quick check of the first pass pages to see if the text >being cited has moved to a different page. If it has, we make the >correction in the index file; if it hasn't changed, cool. My point is that an accurate, complete list (or lists) of all entries in the index referring to the affected page-range (or page-ranges) can be produced within seconds by INDEXING software, but not by WORDPROCESSING software (and the subsequent debate about the relative merits of different wordprocessing software packages has been off the particular point at issue). I suspect, too, that the search facility won't work properly and will miss some entries. Let us suppose there is changed pagination from p. 36 to p. 40. Let us also suppose that in the document you are searching the maximum digit deletion (as required, for example, by Oxford University Press) has been effected. Can you be sure your search will find such locators as the following: 31-6, 32-7, 34-8, 35-9? From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:51:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Schwilk Subject: Re[2]: Page proofs To second Larry and Sharon's comments, as a production editor-indexer, I have spent more than one weekend fixing indexes to account for a refolioed text. If there is the time, I'll ask the indexer (one of whom told me, in essence, "that's your problem, buddy"). More often, I'll either work from the Cindex file, or Cinvert the wp file and do the cx's myself. It's nice when it's an even page-for-page adjustment, but more often than not, it's a line here, a paragraph there. It's time consuming, but someone's got to do it. Mike Schwilk Academic Press ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:13:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect -Reply Where this gets more complicated is when you have more than one person working on a document. In Word, it is sometimes virtually impossible to decipher how the creator of a document achieved a certain look. (Being more concerned with style over substance? Who would have guessed!) This is a huge issue for us when we get in author-supplied material that doesn't meet our formatting requirements and we have to attempt to reformat it. God help you if the document has tables or columns or anything complicated! With WordPerfect, all you have to do is look at the coding and edit or eliminate it. Then, as a previous poster mentioned, you can write a quick macro to implement the fix throughout the document. Word doesn't always let you do that because a) you can't always figure out why something appears the way it does and b) sometimes the coding is "hidden," which makes writing a macro impossible unless you want to go into Virtual Basic and write it in programming language. The macro feature of Word is very, very limited compared to WordPerfect unless you know Virtual Basic (and sometimes even if you do). As for the paper clip, has anyone ever gotten a useful suggestion from the blasted thing? It's like the tip bar in Word 7.0-- full of useless suggestions. I also do not appreciate Word making formating assumptions for me. For example, if you try to make a short line with a series of underline marks, when you hit enter it automatically changes it to a horizontal rule that extends the width of the page. You can undo the change, but what a pain! If I want a horizontal rule, I'll put one in myself, thank you very much! As a rule, I don't like anyone to do my thinking for me unless and until they prove to me that they are better at it than I am. So far, Bill Gates and his cadre of programmers have yet to convince me! But enough ranting for now... :-) -- Sharon W. >>> AliaMM 03/25/98 07:07pm >>> Larry wrote: >It's oftentimes easier to UNDO something then it is to change >it. And with WordPerfect, you can undo something by simply deleting the >code that you can see with Reveal Codes. You can't do that in Word. > >Can somebody else out there help me with this explanation? When you actually *see* the codes that impose the formatting, you can see *exactly* what needs to be changed and change it directly in the code. If you know the codes, you can read them and understand them quickly. With the graphical interface in the MacOS and Windows versions of Word and WordPerfect, in a sense you are guessing what (and where sometimes) the formatting is. You have to go back to the area in question, place the insertion point in the area, and decipher the information from the interface clues (toolbar button on/off, ruler status, etc.). That's why it's easier to Undo and then reformat -- instead of trying to decipher numerous graphical clues in various places. Alia *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Alia Michaels aliamm@aol.com Freelance Technical Writer and Editor *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:10:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect -Reply At 05:03 PM 3/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >No, it doesn't. I will be happy to enlighten you off list >(since this is getting pretty far afield) if you really want >to know what it is that Word doesn't do, but trust me on >this one. Even the Microsoft people told us that it >doesn't. > >-- Sharon W. Sharon: I would like to hear what else you have to say on what it is that Word doesn't do. Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:37:45 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthea Lee Rose Subject: Good to be Back! Greetings All!!! It's good to be back on Index-L! Cynthea Lee Rose The CyberScribe _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:10:43 -0500 Reply-To: lawyer@internetmedia.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robert Markowitz Subject: There Must Be Another Way! My name is Robert Markowitz. I have been a licensed attorney for 31 years and have enjoyed a prosperous career. But I found myself saying more frequently, "There Must Be Another Way." Can you identify with that? Well, there is, and I found it! If you think that it may be a good idea to explore a way to obtain extraordinary financial security before the stress kills you, it won't cost you anything to learn the details. And, you can decide to eventually participate without having to jeopardize your current income situation. About six and a half years ago, I began an affiliation with a well known and respected company that has allowed me to do just what the previous paragraph suggests. This publically traded company has received favorable reviews in Success Magazine, Investor's Business Daily and was ranked #106 in Forbes 200 best small companies in America. I am currently expanding my team of attorneys and would be interested in working with you directly in this extraordinary business. To obtain a free, no obligation audio tape outlining this timely enterprise, call now, toll-free to 1-800-413-8473 (24 hour recorded message), or you may E-mail your name, address and phone number, and a cassette will be sent to you immediately. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and your name will be deleted from our file. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:26:11 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Framemaker keyboard macros for indexing This is how I use Framemaker keyboard macros for indexing. I've used this technique for the tedious <$startrange>, <$endrange>, and <$nopage> controls as well as for lengthy, repetitive text. I retain the start/end/nopage macros in a file, which is available the next time I load Framemaker. You can replace a temporary macro simply by reusing the same trigger (invoking keystroke), or retain temporary macros for your next session. I am using Framemaker Release 5, May 1995 (I don't see a revision number), on a Unix platform. I don't know why Lynn's Framemaker doesn't have the Begin Macros selection on the File/Utilities submenu. 1. Get a new, empty document (blank paper) for recording keystrokes: Select New, then (say) Portrait. 2. Begin creating a keyboard macro: Select File, Utilities, Keyboard Macros On my system, Utilities contains Compare Documents, Document Reports, Capture, and (fourth and last) Keyboard Macros. There is a Help box, and two file selection boxes, which can be ignored until you want to retain macro(s). Select Record a New Macro, and Begin; then OK to Begin Recording Keys. 3. Record the macro Type the keyboard sequence you want for the macro into the new, scratch document. For example: <$startrange> (Don't type a carriage return; that would exit from the Framemker marker window and embed the marker when you invoke the macro.) 4. End recording the macro Select file, Utilities, Stop Recording Keys 5. Specify the keystroke you want to invoke the macro In the Trigger box, type the key that will invoke the macro. (I've used the numeric keypad keys, including the decimal point and arithmetic signs. Function keys work also.) Select Continue (in the Enter Trgger menu), type an Optional comment if you want, and select Continue again. 6. Test the macro Either in the scratch document or the marker window, type the key you've defined to invoke the macro. 7. Retain the macro(s) in a file. Select File, Utilities, Keyboard Macros. Choose a file. In Options, select Add New Macros to File, then select Begin. On exiting, if you have not retained new macros Framemaker will bring up the Keyboard Macros menu, with the Add New Macros to File option selected. You can choose Begin to retain any newly recorded macros. If you choose Cancel not to retain new macros, previously retained macros will still be retained. Enjoy! Joel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:23:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex Subject: Re: Word vs. WordPerfect In a message dated 98-03-25 16:59:02 EST, Larry Baker wrote: << And with WordPerfect, you can undo something by simply deleting the code that you can see with Reveal Codes. You can't do that in Word. >> Now, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not a particular fan of either Microsoft Word or WordPerfect (any version). Each revision of both programs has its own strengths and weaknesses, I use the program/version I've found most useful for the task at hand and teach the use of both. I would like to remind users of Windows-based programs that most have an "Undo" function. In most instances it is ^Z and usually, especially in word processors, repeated ^Zs will under (in reverse) order, undo changes since the file was last saved. I would be in deep trouble without the undo and repeat (^X) functions -- I still find my fingers using WordStar (keyboard) commands, especially when there is not a keyboard shortcut and the program expects me to use a pointing device. I must admit though that I do enjoy the flexibility of the search/replace in Word95 (and Word97). By using macros, I even manage to emulate my favorite WordStar 4.0 commands. (I still use WS4 because it allows me to have a single line of an infinite length -- limited only by disk space -- which can be very convenient when cleaning up messy files and because it allows me to move/copy/delete vertical columns in addition to blocks.) Gale Rhoades (Note: ^ = the key) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Reina Pennington Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up In-Reply-To: <01IV3P70FX4S8Y75H1@InfoAve.Net> At 7:01 PM -0500 3/25/98, JPerlman wrote: >A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer >for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. Get rid of the mouse; buy a keyboard that integrates a trackball or touchpad -- preferably in the center area rather than off to one side. I ADORE my Datadesk Switchboard (no longer available, but they have other keyboards). I've heard bad things about Adesso keyboards, but ALPS has touchpad keyboards. Other ergonomic essentials: Monitor directly above keyboard & in front of face, not off to side. Slantboard between keyboard shelf and monitor shelf. (You can buy a rolling computer cart like this for under $100). Then everything's lined up, and assuming your friend has a good chair and the proper height for the keyboard, she should get tremendous relief. Reina Pennington Dept. of History, University of South Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:11:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Alphabetizing text files In-Reply-To: <199803261901.NAA25114@mail.minn.net> Since I spend about 90% of my professional time editing and 10% indexing, I haven't invested in an indexing program. I've used my word processing program (previously WordPerfect, now Word 97, and don't get me started) and put my entries into a text file. I start each line with the main head; if what I'm entering is a subhead, I add a character of some sort (usually #) and then the subhead. For further levels, I continue in the same way, with an additional character each time. Here's a made-up example: Minnesota#St. Paul Minnesota#Minneapolis##lakes###pollution Minnesota#Minneapolis#politics Minnesota#Minneapolis##lakes###fishing Periodically I have the program sort the entries alphabetically. When I'm ready to edit, I have the computer alphabetize one more time. I get Minnesota#Minneapolis##lakes###fishing Minnesota#Minneapolis##lakes###pollution Minnesota#Minneapolis#politics Minnesota#St. Paul Then I Replace # With . At the end, I have something like Minnesota Minneapolis lakes fishing Minnesota Minneapolis lakes pollution Minnesota Minneapolis politics Minnesota St. Paul Then as I go through line by line, checking things, I just delete the extraneous lines. Hey, it works for me. But now I'm reading Nancy C. Mulvany's _Indexing Books,_ of which folks on this list have spoken highly. She says that one CAN'T allow the computer to alphabetize the entries. One reason is that the computer doesn't "sort properly." I'm not sure what she means; yes, I have to make some changes, but I just cut and paste things that the computer didn't put where I want them. The thing that really concerns me is this: ". . . there is the added problem of subentries beginning with a tab character or spaces that indicate an indention level. The character or characters used to indicate indention levels will be sorted along with the text characters. . . ." Now, this simply isn't an issue with my system. Using the # doesn't affect the sorting at all. So what I want to know is this: (1) Did Ms. Mulvany have a failure of imagination and just not think of my system? (2) Is my system so cumbersome that no other indexer would ever consider it? (3) Is there some other horrible problem with my system that neither I nor my clients have never discovered but that will come back to haunt me? Thanks for any insight. Best wishes, Carol Kennedy colfaxgp@minn.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Alphabetizing text files -Reply Actually, your system sounds pretty ingenious! If it works for you and if your clients are happy with the output, I would stick with it. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." In some word processing programs, hidden codes and spaces can interfere with sorting, but most of the recent releases have solved that problem. As long as you review your index to make sure that it is in the order you want it to appear in, I don't see a problem. However, if you find that your indexing business is picking up and you are spending more of your time on indexing, you might want to consider investing in dedicated indexing software. It's just easier. -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:40:24 -0800 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up Here's an interesting web site at Cornell Univ.: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu You may have to root around a little for the information you need. This page http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html will show you the ideal typing position. There are also some case histories with pictures. Have fun! Laura ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:40:11 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Ergonomic Check-Up Reina: Good points to remember. Also, remember that when you are typing, your arms should be parallel with the ground. Keep the monitor as far away from you as possible. Take frequent breaks. Exercise the hands and fingers. One good exercise is to use those thick, short rubber bands that hold broccoli together. Put two fingers inside the rubber band and try to stretch outward. And so it goes. We will now always be slaves to the computer. C'est la vie. Unless, of course.... Rob Reina Pennington wrote: > At 7:01 PM -0500 3/25/98, JPerlman wrote: > > >A friend is having some trouble with back discomfort when using the computer > >for extended periods of time, or thinks perhaps it is all the mousing. > > Get rid of the mouse; buy a keyboard that integrates a trackball or > touchpad -- preferably in the center area rather than off to one side. I > ADORE my Datadesk Switchboard (no longer available, but they have other > keyboards). I've heard bad things about Adesso keyboards, but ALPS has > touchpad keyboards. > > Other ergonomic essentials: Monitor directly above keyboard & in > front of face, not off to side. Slantboard between keyboard shelf and > monitor shelf. (You can buy a rolling computer cart like this for under > $100). Then everything's lined up, and assuming your friend has a good > chair and the proper height for the keyboard, she should get tremendous > relief. > > Reina Pennington > Dept. of History, University of South Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:57:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Simon Cauchi wrote: I'm very glad to know that Larry Baker, unlike some others, takes the index seriously enough to correct it if the pagination changes after the index has been submitted. But his method of doing so, by using the search facility of his wordprocessing software, is needlessly complicated and time-consuming -- as he says himself: My point is that an accurate, complete list (or lists) of all entries in the index referring to the affected page-range (or page-ranges) can be produced within seconds by INDEXING software, but not by WORDPROCESSING software (and the subsequent debate about the relative merits of different wordprocessing software packages has been off the particular point at issue). I suspect, too, that the search facility won't work properly and will miss some entries. Let us suppose there is changed pagination from p. 36 to p. 40. Let us also suppose that in the document you are searching the maximum digit deletion (as required, for example, by Oxford University Press) has been effected. Can you be sure your search will find such locators as the following: 31-6, 32-7, 34-8, 35-9? My response: I don't dispute that the process is often time-consuming, but the majority of the time spent isn't with the search of the page number (I mean, that's just hitting F2 a couple times), it's with the analysis of the text page itself. ("OK, I see that 'Clinton, Bill' was listed as being on p. 34. Lemme check the old p. 34 ... OK, part of it's still on 34, and part of it has moved to 35, so the new citation should be 34-35.") I can see where that analysis process goes away when the reflow is a straight addition of, say, two pages. (Everything on 34 is now on 35, everything on 35 is now on 36, etc.) But most of the time, reflows are a result of an incorrect image box code, a missed paragraph, an end code that didn't get keyed in properly, so you've got two pages of a 9-point font that needs to be 11 point--that sort of thing. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, sometimes there are other reasons that make the do-it-yourself method preferable. Usually, reflows aren't major enough to be overly concerned about time. (More times than not, when reflows happen, they're within a chapter or two. Not sure why that's been the case....) Sometimes we're really down to the wire, time-wise. And, sorry folks, the later in the game one gets, the less apt we're willing to give up control--even to someone we trust wholeheartedly. Actually, it's not really a control issue, per se, but a piece-of-mind issue: Working on something over the weekend so that it's done--and I know it's done, cuz I did it--in time for Monday morning is often our preference ... well, just because. You other publisher types out there ... can I get an Amen?? And there are other reasons, too. And we HAVE gone back to indexers on occasion, too, so it's not like we don't consider that option. As for the efficiency of the search facility--trust me, it works just fine. I'm certainly aware that a citation that includes page 34 in the range 33-36 won't show up in a specific search of 34. But, c'mon, I take that into account. When I've just searched for page 33, and I come across a page range, I stop right there and make sure that range is right. (FYI, we use the Chicago style of inclusive numbers for under 100, so the Oxford example above wouldn't be a problem for us.) I'm not saying that the way we do it is always the perfect way to do it. But I guess I'll keep defending the fact that we DO look at all the scenarios, we DO carefully check our work, we DO care about our quality. I want the stuff I work on to be right. Is that really out of the ordinary?? Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:00:08 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MBSTR8K Subject: RE ASI meeting in Seattle Just curious....I haven't seen much talk about the upcoming ASI meeting on the list. Are a lot of people going? This will be my first conference and I'm looking forward to meeting the people who are "see" on-line everyday.... I have officially started my indexing business this January...after doing indexing off-and-on for the last several years.....and I am hoping to garner a lot of information from the ASI meeting! Mary Beth Straight Kiss Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:15:05 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: Page proofs -- a moving target? Larry and Simon: I used to do indices with word processing software and survived just fine. Then I switched to indexing software. What a difference, and vive la difference. Yes, indexing software may be lacking in some ways but makes up for those disadvantages in speed, ease, and a host of other priorities. I doubt I will ever return to word processing software for indexing software; the advantages of staying with the newer technology outweigh the disadvantages. Rob Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > Simon Cauchi wrote: > > I'm very glad to know that Larry Baker, unlike some others, takes the index > seriously enough to correct it if the pagination changes after the index > has been submitted. But his method of doing so, by using the search > facility of his wordprocessing software, is needlessly complicated and > time-consuming -- as he says himself: > > My point is that an accurate, complete list (or lists) of all entries in > the index referring to the affected page-range (or page-ranges) can be > produced within seconds by INDEXING software, but not by WORDPROCESSING > software (and the subsequent debate about the relative merits of different > wordprocessing software packages has been off the particular point at > issue). > I suspect, too, that the search facility won't work properly and will miss > some entries. Let us suppose there is changed pagination from p. 36 to p. > 40. Let us also suppose that in the document you are searching the maximum > digit deletion (as required, for example, by Oxford University Press) has > been effected. Can you be sure your search will find such locators as the > following: 31-6, 32-7, 34-8, 35-9? > > My response: > > I don't dispute that the process is often time-consuming, but the majority > of the time spent isn't with the search of the page number (I mean, that's > just hitting F2 a couple times), it's with the analysis of the text page > itself. ("OK, I see that 'Clinton, Bill' was listed as being on p. 34. > Lemme check the old p. 34 ... OK, part of it's still on 34, and part of it > has moved to 35, so the new citation should be 34-35.") I can see where > that analysis process goes away when the reflow is a straight addition of, > say, two pages. (Everything on 34 is now on 35, everything on 35 is now on > 36, etc.) But most of the time, reflows are a result of an incorrect image > box code, a missed paragraph, an end code that didn't get keyed in > properly, so you've got two pages of a 9-point font that needs to be 11 > point--that sort of thing. > > And as I mentioned in an earlier post, sometimes there are other reasons > that make the do-it-yourself method preferable. Usually, reflows aren't > major enough to be overly concerned about time. (More times than not, when > reflows happen, they're within a chapter or two. Not sure why that's been > the case....) Sometimes we're really down to the wire, time-wise. And, > sorry folks, the later in the game one gets, the less apt we're willing to > give up control--even to someone we trust wholeheartedly. Actually, it's > not really a control issue, per se, but a piece-of-mind issue: Working on > something over the weekend so that it's done--and I know it's done, cuz I > did it--in time for Monday morning is often our preference ... well, just > because. You other publisher types out there ... can I get an Amen?? And > there are other reasons, too. And we HAVE gone back to indexers on > occasion, too, so it's not like we don't consider that option. > > As for the efficiency of the search facility--trust me, it works just fine. > I'm certainly aware that a citation that includes page 34 in the range > 33-36 won't show up in a specific search of 34. But, c'mon, I take that > into account. When I've just searched for page 33, and I come across a page > range, I stop right there and make sure that range is right. (FYI, we use > the Chicago style of inclusive numbers for under 100, so the Oxford example > above wouldn't be a problem for us.) > > I'm not saying that the way we do it is always the perfect way to do it. > But I guess I'll keep defending the fact that we DO look at all the > scenarios, we DO carefully check our work, we DO care about our quality. I > want the stuff I work on to be right. Is that really out of the ordinary?? > > Larry Baker > Larry.Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:26:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Job Opportunity Here's a job listing from the Library Jobs listserve. Jean Thompson *********FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS**************************************** Position Open: Indexing/Editing Technician Location: National Emergency Training Center Learning Resource Center Emmitsburg, MD Qualifications: Required - High School Diploma Highly Preferred - Prior indexing and/or library experience; thorough knowledge of English grammar and spelling; knowledge of emergency services subject areas (i.e., firefighting, EMS, emergency management) also helpful Responsibilities: Selects articles to be indexed, according to established criteria; inputs bibliographic citations and subject headings into online catalog; maintains the Subject Headings Lists for staff and patrons; edits abstracts and cataloging records in the online catalog; maintains Interest Profiles from selected journals for staff; prepares weekly and monthly statistical reports; and provides reference services on a periodic basis to both in-house and phone-in patrons. Salary: Currently $13.22/hour (Full-time position) Availability: Available immediately; will remain open until filled by a qualified applicant. Resumes with names, addresses and telephone numbers of at least three references can be mailed or faxed to: Julie Beecken, Project Manager National Emergency Training Center Learning Resource Center 16825 S. Seton Ave. Emmitsburg, MD 21727 1-800-638-1821 (301) 447-3217 (Fax) julie.beecken@fema.gov *********************************************************************** * LIBJOBS is a free service provided by the International * * Federation of Library Associations and Institutions. * * For individual membership information, contact: IFLA@ifla.org * * * * URL: www.ifla.org * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:58:00 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margot_Diltz_at_iac-editor8%IACGATE@IACNET.COM Subject: Re: unsubscribe New Text Item: unsubscribe Also, please delete/remove my name from the listserv. Thanks. Margot Diltz ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: unsubscribe Author: bclingaman@IQUEST.NET @ igate@IGATE at mailex Date: 3/25/98 9:32 AM Please delete my name from the listserv. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: pat.buchanan@sympatico.ca Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Buchanan Organization: Buchanan Indexing and Editing Subject: Extended characters Dear Index-L people: I have a small problem with extended characters and was hoping someone on the list could help. I need to reproduce a registered sign (R within a circle), a lowercase gamma, and a lowercase kappa. I have been confining myself until now to the IBM extended character set because this index has to be exported to .rtf, WP, and QuarkXPress formats. I worry somewhat about these symbols/Greek letters surviving the transfer process intact if I get a symbol from, say, Word. Any help would be appreciated. (By the way, I am using Cindex.) Thanks in advance. Pat ______________________________ Patricia Buchanan Tel: 613-596-9420 Email: pat.buchanan@sympatico.ca Website: http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat.buchanan/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:12:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: IndexAH Subject: Re: Framemaker keyboard macros for indexing Joel S. Berson writes: > I am using Framemaker Release 5, May 1995 (I don't see a revision > number), on a Unix platform. I don't know why Lynn's Framemaker doesn't > have the Begin Macros selection on the File/Utilities submenu. I have FrameMaker 5.5 on Windows 95. My manual says the macros are only available on the Unix platforms. I'm guessing Lynn is working on Windows, instead. Angela Howard Technical Writing and Indexing IndexAH@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:59:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301 Subject: alpha order Carol Kennedy asked about alpha order in wordprocessing programs. The only difference that matters is the type of alpha sort. With dedicated indexing programs we can choose whether we want 1) a Simple sort -- straight ASCII, and what any of us would get when we sort in a word processor; or 2) a Letter-by- Letter sort (preferred by some publishing people), or 3) a Word sort. The rules for sorting these last two are outlined in Mulvany and elsewhere. Carol is probably indexing in-house doesn't have to have some indexes in this alpha order and others in that alpha order. The ASCII sort is pretty close, and I think the wordprocessors work around italics or other codes that would throw those things up to the beginning of the index and hence out of order. However, when I have a publisher who prefers Letter-by-Letter, I still prefer to think more about the index than about alpha order...it's that tedium that I'm no good at -- so I'm one who probably would have been unsuccessful indexing before dedicated indexing software. Thank you programmers, all of you. Deborah ==================== Deborah Patton, Indexer Baltimore, MD dp1301@aol.com 410/243-4688 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:55:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Re: alpha order In-Reply-To: <199803281400.IAA13693@mail.minn.net> At 08:59 AM 3/28/98 EST, Deborah wrote: >Carol is probably indexing in-house doesn't have to have some indexes in this >alpha order and others in that alpha order. No, I'm a freelancer. Some publishers want letter-by-letter and some want word-by-wrod. >However, when I have a publisher who prefers Letter-by-Letter, I still prefer >to think more about the index than about alpha order... Since I put in all my entries before I worry about alphabetization, and I go through to check the computer's alphabetization as a separate step, the processes don't conflict for me. Best wishes, Carol Kennedy colfaxgp@minn.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:45:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Mulvany Subject: Alphabetizing Text Files The sort modules in word processing programs do not alphabetize text files correctly. These modules sort lines of text based on very crude, simple-minded notions of sorting. Indexers are expected to alphabetize their indexes according to a variety of methods. The first alphabetizing decision that must be made is whether to alphabetize letter-by-letter or word-by-word. Sort modules in word processors, database programs, spreadsheet programs, etc. cannot arrange lines of text in a letter-by-letter format. Sort modules sort everything in a line of text. They sort leading prepositions in subentries. They often sort symbols incorrectly. They sort numbers incorrectly. Professional indexers simply do not have time to clean up the sorting errors created by these sort modules. Professional programs like Macrex, SkyIndex, and Cindex contain lines and lines of programming code to accommodate the diverse alphabetizing methods needed by indexes. Here is an example of Word 97's sorting method: As Entered Dogs#walking with#99 Dogs#food for#77 Dogs#in cars#88 Dogs#and horses#44 =93Old Man and the Sea=94#9 Intel 80386#11 Intel 8088#11 Sorted =93Old Man and the Sea=94#9 Dogs#and horses#44 Dogs#food for#77 Dogs#in cars#88 Dogs#walking with#99 Intel 80386#11 Intel 8088#11 Problems with sorted list: 1. double quote character is sorted in ASCII order 2. leading conjunctions and prepositions in subentries are sorted 3. can't sort numbers in ascending numeric order Sorting modules in word processing cannot alphabetize index entries correctly. -nancy Nancy Mulvany Voice: 510-524-4195 Fax: 510-527-4681 Email: nmulvany@well.com Reference Books for Indexers =3D=3D=3D=3D> http://www.well.com/~nmulvany ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:48:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer Subject: ASI meeting in Seattle Hi Mary Beth! > Just curious....I haven't seen much talk about the upcoming ASI meeting on the > list. Are a lot of people going? I'm going! ;-) And since this conference will include members of IASC (Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada) as well as ASI members, I suspect that we're going to have the best attendance ever! This will be a truly international conference, with Presidents attending from England (SI), Australia (AusSI), Canada (IASC) and the US (ASI) participating in an International Panel. I'm sure that Margie Towery or Sharon Hilgenberg can give us a better idea of how many folks are attending, but regardless of the numbers, the annual conference is always a *great* time for professional development and networking. Whether you're a beginner indexer or a veteran, there's always something new to learn. For more information, see the ASI web site at: American Society of Indexers . See you in Seattle! Peg Peg Mauer | Manager of STC Indexing SIG Communication Link | co-leader of Western NY ASI chapter Indexing, Technical Writing | phone: (518) 359-8616 Piercefield, NY 12973 | fax: (518) 359-8235 http://members.aol.com/Pmauer <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:56:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: ASI meeting in Seattle In-Reply-To: <199803281749.JAA00232@smtp1.teleport.com> >> Just curious....I haven't seen much talk about the upcoming ASI meeting on >>the list. Are a lot of people going? I'm definitely going! I want to meet and greet all you generous people who help me so much with your own questions and your answers! The classes I'm signed up for will be very useful, too! Eagerly, Martha Back Words ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:13:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: ASI conference in Seattle I am currently too poor to attend the upcoming conference, which sounds like it's going to be a winner. Does anyone on the List know whether offprints of selected papers will be available? Or if there is a Website address that I can query? Cheers to all, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:52:13 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie & Steve Rizzo Subject: Re: ASI conference in Seattle I , too, am unable to attend the ASI conference in Seattle, but would love any offprints, summaries, etc. I am particularly interested in Web indexing and am very sorry to have to miss Dwight Walker as I am taking his online class now. Marie Rizzo Dafydd Llwyd Talcott wrote: > I am currently too poor to attend the upcoming conference, which > sounds like it's going to be a winner. Does anyone on the List know > whether offprints of selected papers will be available? Or if there > is a Website address that I can query? > > Cheers to all, > dllt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:42:05 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: STortora Subject: 1st index I just completed my first index and during my follow-up call, the publisher indicated that they were pleased. As you might imagine I am very happy, especially since it took a year to get this first assignment. My question is, now what? How do I go about letting publishers I have already written to know that I have done an index? Is it advisable to send out the same materials plus a sample, or do a follow-up letter and send a sample? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Sue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:20:46 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert " <> Subject: Re: 1st index STortora: I would ask your publisher if (1) he/she has any future work in store and (2) if he/she knows any other publishers that might be interested in your services. I would also contact other publishers; I believe the one in charge of hiring the freelancers is usually called the Production Coordinator. Send a cover letter, resume, etc. And, keep at it. As they say, looking for a job is a full-time job. If you have any other questions, please ask. Rob STortora wrote: > I just completed my first index and during my follow-up call, the publisher > indicated that they were pleased. As you might imagine I am very happy, > especially since it took a year to get this first assignment. My question is, > now what? How do I go about letting publishers I have already written to know > that I have done an index? Is it advisable to send out the same materials > plus a sample, or do a follow-up letter and send a sample? Any thoughts or > suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Sue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:22:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: 1st index At 07:42 PM 3/28/1998 EST, STortora wrote: >I just completed my first index and during my follow-up call, the publisher >indicated that they were pleased. As you might imagine I am very happy, >especially since it took a year to get this first assignment. My question is, >now what? How do I go about letting publishers I have already written to know >that I have done an index? Is it advisable to send out the same materials >plus a sample, or do a follow-up letter and send a sample? Any thoughts or >suggestions would be appreciated. Sue, I wouldn't make a point of writing or calling publishers to tell them that you've just completed your first index. :-) Rather, I'd do a targeted mailing (to publishers who produce similar books) to the effect that you've just completed the index for XXX book, published by YYY publishers, and you're interested in more work in this particular subject area. Even if you're really not crazy about the subject matter, this is a good entree to getting more work...and eventually you can move on to more interesting topics. It's really important to get the first few indexes, no matter what you have to take on, IMO, than to hold out for particular favorites. I'd also make a point of staying in touch with the publisher and editor who hired you for this job...not to the point of being annoying, but every few months (if you haven't already started getting regular work) call or drop a note or postcard and remind them that you did such-and-such index for them already. Congratulations and good luck. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:35:09 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Leonard Subject: Re: 1st index (getting that first assignment) In-Reply-To: <199803290043.RAA01963@polaris.azstarnet.com> At 07:42 PM 3/28/98 EST, Sue Tortora wrote: >I just completed my first index and during my follow-up call, the publisher >indicated that they were pleased. As you might imagine I am very happy, >especially since it took a year to get this first assignment. (SNIP...) Sue's experience of taking a year to get her first assignment gave me a serious reality jolt. I'm presently taking the USDA indexing course with the aim of eventually becoming a full-time freelancer, but her experience makes me have serious second thoughts. I'd very much appreciate a response from established indexers re the following questions: 1. Is Sue's experience typical of how difficult it is to get your first assignment (at least for those of us with no existing publisher contacts)? 2. Are the indexes one prepares as part of the USDA course useful as a "portfolio" for breaking into the business? Thanks, David