From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 2-JUL-1998 04:48:43.07 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9806C" Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 04:47:36 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9806C" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:41:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: names (for your amusement) I'm nearing the end of a marathon indexing session. Made more money than I've ever made in 4 days. Never want to do it again. Check out this passage: "Also present is 'Zoane Maria dal gitarino' (player of the soprano lute), undoubtedly the same as the virtuoso lutenist and composer Zoane Maria, variously known as Zoane Maria Giudeo, Zoane Maria Alemano, or Zoane Maria de' Medici." Got that folks? It's that hot guitar-pickin' dude, Zoane Maria, the German Jew, who worked for the Medicis. Catch ya later, indexer dudes (sorry, I've got "Bill & Ted" fever) Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:17:13 +0300 Reply-To: kharashi@kacst.edu.sa Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ibrahim Al-Kharashi Subject: Re: ASI's directory Somebody remove me from this list please. Kari Miller wrote: > > Just out of curiousity...has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from > their listing in ASI's directory? Thanks! > Kari Miller -- Regards, Ibrahim A. Al-Kharashi Computer and Electronics Research Institute (CERI) King Abdulaziz City for Scinece and Technology (KACST) P. O. Box 6086, Riyadh 11442 Phone: 481-3273 Fax: 481-3274 e-mail: kharashi@kacst.edu.sa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:21:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: ASI's directory In-Reply-To: <199806150013.RAA26221@smtp2.teleport.com> >Just out of curiousity...has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from >their listing in ASI's directory? Thanks! >Kari Miller Yes. Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:32:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Opinion: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget In-Reply-To: <199806150021.RAA28701@smtp2.teleport.com> At 1:43 PM -0700 6/14/98, Barbara Cohen wrote: >The Board has taken steps to hold down operating costs in the face of >mounting expenses, and I understand the appeal of the "quick fix" that >rescinding THE INDEXER represents. However, cutting the journal only solves >our budgetary problem for the immediate future. It does nothing to address the >real problem, which is that ASI dues are not sufficient to cover essential >services as they have developed in recent years. Excellent letter, Barbara. As an indexer with less than two year's experience, I admit to getting a little fussy about the claims that "...These new indexers may see little value in maintaining THE INDEXER as a member benefit when the issue is presented as "the journal versus higher dues..." Surely, I need THE INDEXER even more than experienced indexers. But that was only one of several supporting pillars of your argument - your conclusion is excellent. Let me build on it a little more. It seems that we might be taking some steps backwards if we cut that vital benefit of membership. We as ASI members need to determine the value to ourselves of our memberships in professional organizations. In my experience, $65 annual dues is peanuts when compared to other professional associations - I've paid $360 annual dues for membership in a professional organization in a previous incarnation, and considered it an expected cost of doing business. Let's ask ourselves what we see as ASI's future if we cut its benefits and services - and also consider what could it become if we ordinary members support it even more fully - 'more fully' in the sense of not just raising dues a tiny amount every third year to cover inflation, but significantly, with timely member and publisher services, living wages and health insurance for the office staff, adequate funds for PR and promotion of professional indexers, and long range goals in mind. I don't have money to just hand out. But rather than give a pittance here and a pittance there, I'd rather chose the issues that matter to me, then contribute enough to make what I give count. 'Making do' and 'getting by' are not good enough. Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing - Still reeling from the quality of the Seattle conference ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:59:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Indexing genus and species At 04:23 PM 6/11/98 -0400, Barry Koffler wrote: >>Susan, >> Use the second option. A species epithet by itself is a faux pas in >>taxonomy and systematics. Even though the meaning is perfectly >>understandable in your first example, many readers would wince at seeing >>that usage. >> >Hmmm - not in my experience, both as indexer, research scientist, and >assistant to chief librarian at American Mus. of Natural History for many >years. > > >-Barry The person (not named here in Barry's reply) who wrote the message to Susan is right, according to the booklet printed by the British Society of Indexers (Indexing the Medical and Biological Sciences, 1995). On page 34, "Where several species of the same genus are to be listed there are two forms of approach [note: all names are in italics and the B. botulinus example is cited as it was in the booklet]: Bacillus alvei Bacillus anthracis Bacillus larvae Bacillus botulinus see Clostridium botulinum or Bacillus B. alvei B. anthracis B. larvae B. botulinus see Clostridium botulinum ....Species without a generic initial should NEVER be used as subheadings." In other words, Bacillus alvei anthracis botulinus (see Clostridium botulinum) larvae is not correct. One reason that the authors give is that, when the index page are turned and the index is structured like this last example, it can create confusion. Another reason is that these are examples of compound names. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:42:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: George Buys Subject: Reader Volunteer Reader Opportunity Audio International, Inc., is seeking volunteers to record audio clips of stories appearing in major online newspapers and magazines for the world to enjoy. As a volunteer reader, you'll be sharing what you find exciting, enriching and informative in an audio format over the web for those who have difficulty reading print or scanning a screen. For many people, audio is easier. Usee your speaking skills as a teacher, actor, minister, publisher, motivational speaker, writer or trainer to reach those who are blind, visually impaired or learning disabled so they can enjoy the best in print through audio streaming. Audio International, Inc., has just introduced its new 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 for Windows 95, which combines the cutting-edge technology of voice mail with audio streaming on the Internet. As a volunteer reader, you will receive a, free, registered version of this new software when you are approved and be featured on a special web site for those who prefer to receive their information verbally. This web site will be absolutely free. We are offering it as a free service to the blind and visually impaired community. There is no obligation to purchase the 1-Step Audio Publisher to access the files which we will create. The demo version of our player is an audio-streaming plug-in for the major browsers. There will be no need to purchase the player to access any of the files on our site. Audio International is a small business in which all of the officers are either blind or have a physical disability. There is no government program involved. We are funding this effort with money out of our own pockets because we believe it's the right thing to do. I'm Audio International's CEO. As a blind person, I know how much this service can mean to those of us who are print disabled. As a volunteer, here's what you'll gain 1. You'll become a member of a private e-mail list of individuals like yourself who have volunteered to periodically record worthwhile and appealing printed material. 2. Valuable exposure for your vocal skills. Your web site and E-mail addresses will accompany each audio clip you post. Audio International will transfer your recordings to a web site designed for audio offerings and publicize that site throughout the Internet. 3. You'll provide a valuable service for others. This service will be used and appreciated by many different groups of people who spend time on the Internet. 4. You'll receive a, free, registered of our 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0, which will give you an easy, 1-step, way to upload sound files to Audio International's e-mail list - and to your own ftp server. 5. You'll receive a comprehensive tutorial with the 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 as well as free individual technical help to make sure it is working properly. Technical help from Audio International staff is also available through a user-based e-mail list. But, probably the most exciting benefit of all, is the ability to place sound clips on your own web site without a special encoder. You need only four things to publish your own audio clips 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 a sound card a microphone Windows 95 The applications for 1-Step range from voice mail and sales to marketing and audio books, further enhancing the Internet's capabilities to form virtual communities. The audio stream function of 1-Step allows the user, through a free, standard plug-in, to access sound files with a browser such as Netscape or Microsoft Internet Explorer. As a volunteer reader, you must be equipped with a pentium processor, a sound card, a microphone and Windows 95. You must also have an ftp account through your ISP. When we receive your query about becoming a volunteer reader, we'll send you further details about this opportunity. To apply as a volunteer reader, telephone me, George Buys, at 602/503-2659. or send a post to buys@audio-tips.com with apply in the subject line. For more information on the 1-Step Audio Publisher and services which are currently being offered, please visit our web sites http//www.audio-international.com http//www.audio-tips.com Also, if you are a web designer of a disability related web site, please continue reading. As a web designer, we know that innovative tools are always appreciated and at Audio-International, we are proud to be able to offer our new 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 for Windows 95 free of charge, no strings attached, to web designers of disability related web pages.. If you would like to take advantage of this exciting offer and receive an absolutely free, no strings attached, copy of this revolutionary new product, simply send your name and URL to buys@audio-tips.com, with disability in the subject line. a registration code will be returned to you shortly and you will be on your way to Audio Publishing on the Internet. For more information on the 1-Step Audio Publisher, please read on. The 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 gives you voice e-mail as well as the ability to place sound clips on your own web site without a special encoder.The applications for 1-Step range from marketing your product to communicating with your customers and visitors by audio, further enhancing your capability to form virtual communities. Also visit our web sites http//www.audio-international.com http//www.audio-tips.com I look forward to hearing from you. George Buys CEO Audio-International buys@audio-tips.com This is a request for volunteers to assist in an exciting new project to assist the blind and visually impaired in accessing the Internet. If you are not interested in volunteering your services or in receiving the product described above, free of charge, please send a post to buys@audio-international.com, with the word "remove" in the subject field of the message. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:06:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: names (for your amusement) Carol, Of COURSE we knew that! Doesn't EVERYBODY?? But who are Bill and Ted? The authors? They didn't pay you anywhere NEAR enough... ;D Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:31:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Opinion: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget (long) In-Reply-To: <199806150030.UAA12647@mail3.bellsouth.net> Barbara, I wasn't aware the budget problem was *that* bad... and I've been a member of ASI for rather more than 10 years. I objected strenuously (by email and with my ballot) to THE INDEXER being dropped. Personally, I would prefer (well, not exactly "prefer," but...) a significant dues increase and/or an ala carte menu of services. I mean, $65/year is not much at all for a professional organization. It's just part of my overhead, and it's not even close to what STC and the several freelance editorial groups charge. (FTM, have any of the other list subscribers paid ALA dues lately? It's like a thirteenth mortgage payment....) At the same time, I'm aware that (say) doubling the dues could create a problem for part-time freelancers. Hence, a list of added charges for added services, including THE INDEXER, being listed in the Directory, etc. Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Barbara Cohen > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 1998 3:44 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Opinion: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget (long) > > ASI members are currently being asked to decide whether to continue > subscribing to THE INDEXER or to raise ASI dues as if this is an > "either-or" > question. Members may not be aware of the fact that even if THE INDEXER is > discarded as a member benefit, dues will need to be raised because ASI's > expenses exceed income--and have for several years now. Getting rid of THE > INDEXER as a member benefit is a short-term solution to a > long-term problem. > The real problem of the ASI budget is the proliferation of member > services and > the rising cost of fixed expenses without a raise in dues to > cover essential > services of the organization. [...snip...] > Either ASI needs a major restructuring to live within the income generated > from $65.00 dues, or members must be willing to pay for the cost > of services > most of us regard as necessary to the continued health of the > organization. > What the actual cost per member would be remains unclear, but to > present the > removal of THE INDEXER as an "either-or" solution to the dues > problem does a > disservice to the issues at hand. [...snip...] > However, an informal poll of senior members of ASI (indexers with > 10 or more > years of experience and membership in ASI) reveals unanimous support for a > dues increase over suspending THE INDEXER. Senior indexers do not > question the > importance of the journal or what it signifies about ASI as a serious > professional organization with ties to our counterparts in Great Britain, > Canada, and Australia. What senior indexers question is why the ASI Board > would think receipt of the journal is an expendable service and what the > Board's decision will mean for the development of the organization in the > foreseeable future. [...snip...] > Barbara E. Cohen > Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:53:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Bryant Subject: Re: Opinion: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget >professional organizations. In my experience, $65 annual dues is peanuts >when compared to other professional associations - I've paid $360 annual >dues for membership in a professional organization in a previous >incarnation, and considered it an expected cost of doing business. Let's >ask ourselves what we see as ASI's future if we cut its benefits and >services - and also consider what could it become if we ordinary members >support it even more fully - 'more fully' in the sense of not just raising >dues a tiny amount every third year to cover inflation, but significantly, >with timely member and publisher services, living wages and health >insurance for the office staff, adequate funds for PR and promotion of >professional indexers, and long range goals in mind. >Martha Osgood >Back Words Indexing >- Still reeling from the quality of the Seattle conference I agree Martha. I have paid $320 a year in dues when I was teaching in middle school just so I could receive the insurance benefits. I have dropped two other organizations that I had belonged to as a media specialists because they cut back on the benefits several years ago and now are raising dues. I'll be honest, I am not a member of ASI just now because I just paid for my USDA course in indexing. I was planning to join in the very near future and was looking forward to receiving my first THE INDEXER. Charlotte Bryant Anderson, SC 29625 cbryant@carol.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:03:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: ASI's directory In a message dated 98-06-15 04:12:38 EDT, you write: << has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from their listing in ASI's directory? >> Well, maybe not a job (yet!), but a welcome-back from ASI Seattle included email inquiries of availability from publishers. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:13:56 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Opinion: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget To Martha and anyone else who might have taken offense about my comments about new indexers being less committed to THE INDEXER: I agree 100 percent that new indexers need THE INDEXER as much or more than experienced indexers do. I'm just not sure that they will vote to maintain our subscriptions rather than keep costs down, when the issue is presented in the way it has been presented by the Board. After all, the journal can be somewhat dry and scholarly on occasion (although many of us cherish its entertainment value). I only meant to convey that new indexers might have less commitment to the journal than long-term ASI members do. As for your other comments, I couldn't agree more. We need to put our money where our mouths are, shell out to support the organization and a living wage for our employee (who works hard to keep up our facade to the world), and we need to grow the organization, not cut valued services. Let's hope the Board is listening. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:14:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Opinion: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget I want thank Barbara for bringing up the ASI ballot. I was very surprised to learn that ASI was thinking of dropping the INDEXER. I've been reading both it and Keywords since I joined ASI. I thought I understood the relationship between the two publications. I thought that the INDEXER was the "official" publication of the International Society and was the forum for the more theoretical and technical communications. I thought Keywords was a more local journal serving to keep the members of the American Society informed about internal matters. The tone was more casual. Will KEYWORDS plan to step in and take over the INDEXER's role? Maybe I just accepted the INDEXER board evaluation of the relationship. Maybe I'd formed this idea of their respective missions because I thought that made sense. Did I get it wrong? Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:16:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Venneman Subject: Re: ASI's directory Good Morning, Excellent thoughts on ASI have led me to wonder about when a new directory process etc. will be started. Pamela Venneman Lighthouse Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:15:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Monday Gift In-Reply-To: <199806151407.HAA04647@powergrid.electriciti.com> I have begun to savor Douglas Hofstadter's _Le Ton beau de Marot_. The author (who actually wrote to preserve desired line breaks), introduces the index (type is too, too small in trade paperback). I share these with you. If more authors had such insight on indexing, we might have less work. All-in-all I see him more as colleague than competitor. P. 609: "Though completeness is an ideal for any index, it is chimerical. Doing an index is a lesson to end all lessons in the vagueness and subjectivity of human categories. I have tried to compensate for inevitable lacunae and subjective mismatches with readers' minds by indexing most major topics in several different ways." Of course, I'm a bit jealous (even though my indexes rarely need to be written to size) with Hofstadter's ability to have a free hand. And the type size is likely a result of the length from the "several different ways." Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:42:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Opinion: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget In a message dated 98-06-15 08:56:31 EDT, you write: << But rather than give a pittance here and a pittance there, I'd rather chose the issues that matter to me, then contribute enough to make what I give count. 'Making do' and 'getting by' are not good enough. Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing >> Thanks, Martha, you (and apparently Barbara -- haven't gotten to her input yet in the long list of Index-L mail accumulated after a "no-post" weekend) hit it exactly. If I do have to pay separately for *The Indexer,* so be it. It is too valuable not to get, but paying appropriate dues for what it is that we want is a better option. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:01:20 -0400 Reply-To: mirjana martic Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mirjana martic Subject: Re: Monday Gift This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BD984C.ED89A800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pam, I found the title of the book most intriguing. It is very poetic. What is it about? If the rest is a play like the title I'm rushing to a library or bookstore. Mirjana >I have begun to savor Douglas Hofstadter's _Le Ton beau de Marot_. The >author (who actually wrote to preserve desired line breaks), introduces the >index (type is too, too small in trade paperback). > >I share these with you. If more authors had such insight on indexing, we >might have less work. All-in-all I see him more as colleague than competitor. > >P. 609: > >"Though completeness is an ideal for any index, it is chimerical. Doing an >index is a lesson to end all lessons in the vagueness and subjectivity of >human categories. I have tried to compensate for inevitable lacunae and >subjective mismatches with readers' minds by indexing most major topics in >several different ways." > >Of course, I'm a bit jealous (even though my indexes rarely need to be >written to size) with Hofstadter's ability to have a free hand. And the >type size is likely a result of the length from the "several different ways." > > >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BD984C.ED89A800 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Mirjana Martic.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Mirjana Martic.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Martic;Mirjana FN:Mirjana Martic ORG:CEIM TITLE:responsible for the Documentation Center TEL;WORK;VOICE:514 866 0575 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(514)733 9958 TEL;WORK;FAX:514 866 3591 TEL;HOME;FAX:(514)733 9958 ADR;WORK:;;33,rue Prince;Montreal;Quebec;H3C 2M7;Canada LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:33,rue Prince=3D0D=3D0AMontreal, = Quebec H3C 2M7=3D0D=3D0ACanada URL: URL:http://www.ceim.org EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:mirjanam@videotron.ca EMAIL;INTERNET:mmartic@ceim.org REV:19980615T150120Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BD984C.ED89A800-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:04:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: ASI's directory In a message dated 98-06-15 06:25:41 EDT, karimiller@MINDSPRING.COM writes: > > Just out of curiousity...has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from > their listing in ASI's directory? Thanks! > Kari Miller From the ASI Membership Director -- not to my knowledge. From Indexer Services [formerly Indexer Locator] -- Yes! I've gotten at least one job/referral from that source every year I've had a listing. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:04:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing genus and species Glenda wrote: << I vaguely remember from my formal library studies that there is a rule that subheadings are best used for *aspects* of the main heading, rather than narrower terms or examples of the main heading. In an index on dogs we would list all breeds by name (dalmations under D; collies under C), so why do we feel the need to do differently just because the species start with the same name? >> I don't know anything about genus/species issues. But in general, what kind of subheadings are appropriate, in a back-of-book index, depends on the material you're trying to divide up. If the "narrower terms or examples of the main heading" are all on the same page, it would not be helpful to use them as subheadings! But if, for instance, the main heading is a big section divided into sub-sections, one for each narrower term, than it would make perfect sense to use those as subs. Or if the main heading information is scattered through the book, and narrower terms divide it better than aspects of the main heading, then they would be useful. I call this "Do Mi's second rule." Make subheadings that best divide up the main heading information. (And of course any subheading that someone might look up on its own should ALSO be a main heading. That goes without saying.) Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael L. Olason" Subject: ISPs SUMMARY I tried to post this to the list this weekend, but did not see it show up...so here it is again. I apologize if this is a duplicate post. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion of ISPs. There seems to be three options: free or low-cost ISPs, sharing space with another company or group, and established, larger ISPs. Here is a summary of the comments that I have received personally and from those posted to the list. Free or low-cost ISPs offer some extremely good deals. However, you need to research these ISPs very carefully, they also have some restrictions that you may or may not want to live with. Some of these restrictions include: what you may use your web site for, limits on transfer volume, amount of space provided is usually under 10 mg, maintenance may be performed during peak hours, there may be software/hardware conflicts, some may use COOKIES (which some of your potential clients may not allow on their computer), some force you to have ads on your site, and some of these companies do not have a professional image. However, depending on the requirements for your particular web site, you can find some good deals. Sharing space with another company or group may be another really good option. Buying service from larger providers, like AOL or Netcom, costs more, but has some advantages. Some of these advantages would include: stability of company, more lines to handle traffic, more disk storage, more data transfer, more e-mail accounts, FTP access, Common Gateway Interface (for online forms), log files to track traffic on your site, and technical support. One mistake that I made in calling these larger providers was that when I was asking for information regarding web site hosting, I failed to tell them that I did NOT need internet access (I already have this). The costs they initially quoted me included the costs of internet access AND web site hosting. Once I figured this out, the costs were about cut in half. For example, Netcom quoted me $45.00 per month for internet access and web site hosting; the quote was changed to $25.00 per month for web site hosting only. The biggest recommendation seems to be to figure out the requirements (purpose of your site, disk storage needed, what your budget can afford, etc.) for your particular situation, then carefully research your options and inquire about ALL packages offered. Thanks again, Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:48:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: ISPs SUMMARY FYI Be very careful with Netcom as I found there accounting department impossible to deal with. It took 5 months and a lawyer to get an account cancelled. I found they do not answer email or faxes to the accounting department. Also, for their regular email accounts you have to call San Jose and usually spend an hour on hold. This is just my experience but others I know with netcom email accounts had similar problems. Roberta Horowitz At 02:30 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >I tried to post this to the list this weekend, but did not see it show >up...so here it is again. I apologize if this is a duplicate post. > > >Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion of ISPs. >There seems to be three options: free or low-cost ISPs, sharing space >with another company or group, and established, larger ISPs. Here is a >summary of the comments that I have received personally and from those >posted to the list. > >Free or low-cost ISPs offer some extremely good deals. However, you >need to research these ISPs very carefully, they also have some >restrictions that you may or may not want to live with. Some of these >restrictions include: what you may use your web site for, limits on >transfer volume, amount of space provided is usually under 10 mg, >maintenance may be performed during peak hours, there may be >software/hardware conflicts, some may use COOKIES (which some of your >potential clients may not allow on their computer), some force you to >have ads on your site, and some of these companies do not have a >professional image. However, depending on the requirements > for your particular web site, you can find some good deals. > >Sharing space with another company or group may be another really good >option. > >Buying service from larger providers, like AOL or Netcom, costs more, >but has some advantages. Some of these advantages would include: >stability of company, more lines to handle traffic, more disk storage, >more data transfer, more e-mail accounts, FTP access, Common Gateway >Interface (for online forms), log files to track traffic on your site, >and technical support. One mistake that I made in calling these larger >providers was that when I was asking for information regarding web site >hosting, I failed to tell them that I did NOT need internet access (I >already have this). The costs they initially quoted me included the >costs of internet access AND web site hosting. Once I figured this >out, the costs were about cut in half. For example, Netcom quoted me >$45.00 per month for internet access and web site hosting; the quote >was changed to $25.00 per month for web site hosting only. > >The biggest recommendation seems to be to figure out the requirements >(purpose of your site, disk storage needed, what your budget can >afford, etc.) for your particular situation, then carefully research >your options and inquire about ALL packages offered. > >Thanks again, > >Susan Olason >Indexes & Knowledge Maps > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:34:50 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: E: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: E: Original tag data was -> Charles Anderson Subject: Re: ASI's directory At 06:21 PM 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Just out of curiousity...has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from >>their listing in ASI's directory? Thanks! >>Kari Miller For what it's worth, in my early days in the indexing profession (1970's) when I had a listing in either the Directory or Locator (or whatever it was called back then - I don't even remember - I never got even a sniff of a job through ASI. I would say that over the past 25+ years, the source of 95% of my indexing work has been word-of-mouth from one editor to another. Charles Anderson > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:42:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Aganita Varkentine Subject: Re: Newspaper Indexing ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD987D.0FD9AE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was an indexer for Information Access Co. from the beginning of = National Newspaper Index (1978) through 1994. I don't know of books, = but have personal experience. -----Original Message----- From: Dawn Spencer [SMTP:Indexlady@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 1998 8:06 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: FWD: Newspaper Indexing Hi All! This is forwarded from another list. Please respond directly to: kimmis@netvigator.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subj: Any suggested readings/info? Date: 98-06-11 10:41:52 EDT From: kimmis@netvigator.com (Kimmi) Sender: owner-newslib@listserv.oit.unc.edu Reply-to: newslib@listserv.oit.unc.edu To: NewsLib@listserv.oit.unc.edu CC: kimmis@netvigator.com Dear all, I am a student who is doing an assignment which entitled "historical = review of newspaper indexing and the technological impact to newspaper indexing". = I find the book "News Media Libraries" proved to be very useful. But for the = latter part of my topic "the technological impact to newspaper indexing", I = hardly find anything current information about the topic. Could anyone suggest = any resources/reading lists which could me a hint where to locate = information for doing the topic. I urgently need some help and suggestions. Cheers, Kimmi =3D=3D=3D=3D Thank you, Dawn ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD987D.0FD9AE20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjYXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA9AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAWgAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAEluZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNj dXNzaW9uIEdyb3VwAFNNVFAASU5ERVgtTEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAHgAC MAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACIAAABJTkRFWC1MQEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRP Ti5FRFUAAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAdAAAAJ0luZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNjdXNzaW9u IEdyb3VwJwAAAAACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOklOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5DQy5CSU5HSEFNVE9O LkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAGwAAAEluZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNjdXNzaW9uIEdy b3VwAAACAfdfAQAAAFoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vz c2lvbiBHcm91cABTTVRQAElOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5DQy5CSU5HSEFNVE9OLkVEVQAAAAMA/V8B AAAAAwD/XwAAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACQWgBBIABABcAAABSRTogTmV3c3BhcGVyIEluZGV4 aW5nAPwHAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcGAA8ADQAqABcAAQA5AQEggAMADgAAAM4HBgAPAA0AKQALAAEALAEB CYABACEAAAA3RkQyRUQzMzM0MDREMjExOTRGQUY0RDkwM0MxMEUyNwAlBwEDkAYAiAgAACIAAAAL AAIAAQAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAQAAAAMALgAAAAAAAgExAAEAAADIAAAAUENERkVC MDkAAQACAEwAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAATVNQU1QuRExMAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCq ADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1NcbWFpbGJveC5wc3QAGAAAAAAAAAANfAKlQhLREZT4REVTVAAAooAA AAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAA18AqVCEtERlPhERVNUAADCgAAAEAAAAH/S7TM0BNIRlPr02QPBDicXAAAA UkU6IE5ld3NwYXBlciBJbmRleGluZwADADYAAAAAAEAAOQAA+m4Znpi9AR4AcAABAAAAFwAAAFJF OiBOZXdzcGFwZXIgSW5kZXhpbmcAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG9mJ4ZGzPt0oIENBHSlPr02QPBDicA AB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAOAAAAYXZhcmtAaWJtLm5ldAAAAAMABhAsdI1/ AwAHECQEAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABJV0FTQU5JTkRFWEVSRk9SSU5GT1JNQVRJT05BQ0NFU1NDT0ZS T01USEVCRUdJTk5JTkdPRk5BVElPTkFMTkVXU1BBUEVSSU5ERVgoMTk3OClUSFJPVUdIMTk5NElE T05US05PAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAoAQAAJwEAAAwBwAATFpGdResPiF3AAoBAwH3IAKkA2MCAGOCaArA c2V0MCAHbQ8CgwBQA9QCAHBycTI2IAcTAoB9CoAIyCA78QliMTI4CboT0QKACoFsdWMAUAsDYwBB C2BuYGcxMDMzC6USEEl4IHdhBCADkQuAAQB4zQSQIAIQBcBJbhgxAMDMdGkCIBIgY2MHkAQgDQhQ LhggA2EgdGhlcCBiZWcLgAMAFjAgvG9mB7AY0wdAB7JzCrAOcBgBGHAX0SAoMTkYNzgpGiEDYHVn aLIgHOA5NBnAFxFkAiDiJwVAa25vB+AbEQbg0G9rcywaYHUFQA+A9nYaUBwxcxuDF+AcMQiQem4Z UC4KogqECoQLMGx4aTM2AUAV0AFAEeBvCnQFkHQRJDE2IC1dJDJPBRAakRuhTRlhYfxnZSQzIXYj RCMRCxMjRmBpLTE0NAFAIpAxHDgwAUAM0CfTYiBGFQNhOgyDYg/gRGF3HQOgUxwwITEFwFtTTRhU UDoccwtgZHlAAEFPTC5DT01dnyF1KQAGYAIwKWdUaAhwEHNkYXkfgEp1bhkaUDExH4AdwTggOCQ6 MCQQQU0sR1Rv8SlnTXVsGOALUBpQCXB2YwUgIRF0BCAbESKQcwEFQElOREVYLUwxLEh1YmojcSln Rlf8RDobzhrRJd8m6iKWEUETFrQhdEhpEiBsbCH/IXotoAQAF6AEIBgxF0ALIP8JgBnUAHAjUBpA BcAyQhnAflAxMBdQMUIcAAIgO3Bk4mkxYXRseRogMDEhiSprB3BtBABALmB0dlckoBjQBbAuBaBt IXo9n0FFIXozkjTAQtFBbj4g/nMdgCVgMmA7YQlwK4Aa0exzLwuAAhA/IXQp8CNgW0LCLvAtL0An wDEdsDAgOjQxOjUSEEVEflQhdCkjQtE/P0BCHMBL/UfyKUIlCfAEgTTAHtAuYJxyLS5gG/AikGJA MkLBD7Bydi5vaTyQLlCcYy4JgAxwIYNSZQtQ/HktPkFC0kLRSv9MDzAhm02jG9JMTm9MWkNDTZQ7 R+9ATkQ84AXAB0BsLJshehcgYTvBQ0B0dQEA8wIwFzBobzqyHlAa0gORsxdQAJBnbgeAV3NpD3Df ILACMEwQMTA7cCI6gVQx/1lwG6EJcFPwB9EbECF0ThK/HBQXs1g0O3AaMiNhaB7A/wkAGpBawgdw CrAjgD4xTgP9XDwiGcAXICegF8AhdBozfx9BWjAb0iUBPbBXAFDxcvMKwAiQcyIgIANgIABdQatX wBpwICAAcj4gdQ+w9mYw4BnAQh+xGDIaMgtgvwJABJAhdAqxBUAbEW0+Iv0xoGNaMF1vXn9fix+A FyC9D4FkPhAhdGCSF3F5GjD9GtJjCHAJcFdxRIIYtgGgvwhgaOFngmcSGcAIUWxrk/8CIBpQQ1Vr oiF0PTEIYRlR/i9D9TIzBCBZVAWgbrIHgL9W8WvxV4IEkG4CMjBvWsD/I2BsuxgxIXRYFG3pFyAI cP8lYAIwPhEuYDthIGBysRpAXGxwXRNDVRjxcyFrQ/8aQCBBVetJU0DoObwAcGGgfW8QdVXrKfIh fgqAEqEAAX/wAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAAMAgBD/////QAAHMMDEUO6dmL0BQAAIMMDEUO6dmL0B CwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQ hQAAAAAAAAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAC3DQAAHgAlgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOC4wAAMAJoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAv gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAADADCACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAA AAAAAAMAMoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgBBgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYA AAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAA AAAeAEOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6 IAAAAAADAA00/TcAABkX ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD987D.0FD9AE20-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:44:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: ASI ballot and The Indexer I would like to thank Barbara Cohen for her heartfelt and carefully considered explanation of the budgetary problems confronting ASI, and the place of The Indexer as a part of our membership. I won't repeat what she said, but I urge everyone to read it. I would only add: Why is the board asking us to approve a new official set of sub-organizations (SIGs), which will have to cost money to maintain, while at the same time asking us to curtail one of the most important services we receive as part of our membership--the international journal of the indexing profession? I would also question the wisdom of government by poll taking. Elinor Lindheimer Past President, ASI elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:49:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael L. Olason" Subject: Bid on web spave for ASI Just clearing up a misunderstanding... When I posted my questions regarding ISPs to Index-L, I stated that the Colorado Chapter of ASI was investigating a web site, not the national ASI organization (they already have a wonderful web site). If Robert Dinse wants to give the Colorado Chapter of ASI a bid, that would be fine. Please have him forward the bid or any questions to me at oleduke@ix.netcom.com. Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:18:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: ASI's directory Yes, I have. Bonnie called and asked me if I wanted a two-month job (which turned into three). It was just what I wanted. I wish it had lastedlonger. Seullen On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:29:43 -0400 Kari Miller writes: >Just out of curiousity...has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from >their listing in ASI's directory? Thanks! >Kari Miller > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:41:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: ASI's Directory Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about ASI's directory! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:20:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: ASI ballot and The Indexer Barbara Cohen has made some excellent points about The Indexer and the lack of explanation in the questionnaire. It certainly seems shortsighted to be disconnecting from an international journal just after the editorship has changed and efforts have started to make it more relevant to the members of all the societies. Keywords is excellent, but it is not the same thing as the Indexer. I am in the lucky position of receiving two Indexers (one for the office, one for home...) because of holding membership in both IASC and ASI. Therefore I would not be in real distress if ASI cancelled it. However, if it were my only subscription, I would be very upset at having to pay more for my individual subscription than if ASI increased its fees and allowed me to benefit from the special rate it receives. This aspect -- the actual cost of an individual subscription compared to ASI's actual rate-- is not clear on the questionnaire. Running a national organization with a farflung membership is very difficult. It is a challenge to try to meet all needs and to reflect as many interests as possible. Choices do have to be made. However, if membership is to be consulted, it should be given as accurate information as possible, and the consequences of various options should be made really clear. Since self-education is such an important component of indexer training, it would be unfortunate if ASI had to choose to discontinue the only journal devoted to the subject. Christine Jacobs IASC Past-President ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:40:48 -0700 Reply-To: jimj@wt.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jimj Organization: Lonewolf Inc. Subject: Messy Reference Locators I am preparing to create two indexes for the body of Quality System documentation that I manage: 1) a subject index of documents and 2) a job title/departmental index covering the documents and their associated forms. My problem is I'm having a hard time determining a reference locator format that is not extremely *messy* looking. I'm trying to keep the format accessible to employees at all levels of the organization, but right now it looks like a secret code! The form numbering looks like "QS2-0068" with the important bit being the last four digits (the serial number). Consequently, I felt ok about the following format: term, 0068: 6-7, 13; 0070: 2 However, form numbering looks like "QSF-0068-2" with the important bit being the four digit serial number and the one digit ID#. Forms are only a page or two in length, so I don't want to use a hyphen in the locator and "to" in the page range. (In fact, they're all so short I could forgo the page #, but I think that would create more visual confusion.) So, I am considering the following options for forms: term, 0068:2: 1-2 term, 0068_2: 1-2 term, 0068.2: 1-2 term, 0068(2): 1-2 Ugh. I have to get that extra digit in the locator (but not like 00682: 1-2). Together it all might look like: term, 0068: 6-7, 13; 0068:1: 1-2; 0070: 2 I would appreciate any opinions on what looks the best or advice that might simplify this scheme. Thanks in advance. Renate Jones PS: I am a newbie (another newbie willing to pay more for The Indexer) and having trouble determining exactly what this type of index would be called (and consequently, what to call this type of reference locator). Is it a cumulative index even if there were no individual indexes for each document? It is multi-authored documentation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:35:11 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Note on the Board and The Indexer (long) All - Well, once again the stress level on Index-L seems to be rising, and once again the Board apparently has failed, as it does with such consummate skill, to communicate a balanced and meaningful explanation to the ASI membership either before or after dropping The Indexer. The point here is not to start a "Let's Dump On the Board" flame war. My point is that the Board has failed to communicate its reasons for the Indexer Decision, and apparently for other more important decisions. The comments on Index-L regarding The Indexer, reasonable as most are, largely address peripheral issues. As I see it, the most important immediate questions about this issue are "Why was The Indexer dropped? Were there alternatives? Could this decision have been made at another time (i.e., not in a closed Board meeting at Seattle) or made in another way? And, last: Why wasn't this matter presented to the membership before the decision was implemented?'" These are both financial and procedural questions. But by extension they lead to another more basic question that is addressed briefly toward the end of this note. Again, PLEASE do not flame me! I am trying to shift this discussion to a slightly different direction, not to take sides or campaign for one point of view or another. I am not attacking new indexers, experienced indexers, SI, The Indexer, the Board, or believers in UFO abductions. I AM suggesting that we at least ask why and how the decision to drop The Indexer was made, and what circumstances surrounded it. The Board seems to have failed to make this clear. 1. First, I do not believe that the decision by the Board to drop The Indexer can be dismissed as simply arbitrary or irrational, although the manner in which it was done could be questioned. 2. The recent ballot that ASI members returned regarding long-range planning did have a question ranking the perceived usefulness of The Indexer. My question (and here the Board has a clear responsibility to publish acccurate infomation) is this: did a majority of respondents rank the Indexer highly so far as usefulness to their work is concerned? Note, please, that this poll did not address the quality of the journal, or the professional depth of its content. The question simply was "Do you find The Indexer very useful for your work?" and if the answers generally were "Not Very" then this would be an important factor in the Board's decision.. Again I say, wearily, I am not denigrating how very useful The Indexer can be, or how it addresses issues that are critically important to many experienced and/or inexperienced indexers. I simply am observing that in this supposedly unbiased poll, if the majority of respondents didn't consider The Indexer central to their professional health then dropping it becomes at least a reasonable candidate alternative. So the membership response to the questionnaire could be one of the factors that the Board used in deciding to drop The Indexer. I am not talking about governing by polls. I am saying that sooner or later every governing body must make some sort of decision, that this decision must be based on some set of criteria, and that no decision ever satisfies everybody in any given constituency. I have no problem with the Board making decisions; that is their responsibility and they are welcome to it. I am more concerned about the decision-making process. 3. It seems obvious that in apportioning a substantial part of each member's dues to this subscription, ASI has contributed significantly to the cost of publishing The Indexer. So, regardless of its reasonablenes, how much has been so apportioned? The figure $20/member has been mentioned. I believe that this figure is accurate. I do not know if $20/member from ASI is matched by an equivalent amount from each SI member, or what portion of the cost of publishing The Indexer ASI is shouldering. But there is no reason, in my view, that in a not-for-profit organization such as ASI this expenditure, or any expenditure, should be held secret. If ASI is hard poor, as it claims to be, and if the Board is considering dropping The Indexer as an excessively expensive member perk, then I don't believe that this action is irrational or foolish. I am not saying that I agree or disagree; I merely am saying that the decision could have some basis in fact. But I also believe that the situation should not have been resolved privately by the Board. 4. In the context of my comments regarding secrecy, I would make this futher point: Ideally, in my view, the Board would have assembled all the relevant financial facts, It also would have polled the membership as it did (more or less) regarding their ranking of the usefulneness of The Indexer. But not as an abstract question embedded in a larger poll, but explicitly as in: "We are spending this much of your dues on this publication. How do you rank its usefulness TO YOU in the contex of your work versus its cost?" That would be a reasonable question regardless of whether ASI was rolling in money or was on its uppers, as it seems to be. The Board then could have assembled all pertinent information and decided upon one or more courses of action. And THEN (and this is what it did not do) it could have submitted these alternatives to the membership for approval/disapproval, etc. Please note, though, that for every satisfied "Nay" sayer there probably is a disappointed and frustrated "Yea" sayer. But that is the democratic voting process: argue before the fact and then get behind the decision after it is made. Historically we don't do this very well in any venue, public or private 5. After all, the decision re The Indexer does affect us all, financially and professionally. It is not an end-of-the-world big deal in any case, but it is, unfortunately, representative of a decision-making process that I believe needs serious review and revision. T 6. Now, if the $20/member that has been allocated to SI were now to be used for other purposes, it would be tempting to suggest what these new uses should be. I disagree with this, and believe it to be premature and inappropriate. It is exactly like the Washington politicians arguing how they will spend every penny of a supposed budget surplus, all the arguments being short-term and self-serving. If ASI can save the entire $20/member by dropping The Indexer, that is not a $20 surplus that is up for grabs. That simply is a slight easing of an overall very complex and tight financial situation. It is not found money to be spent in the near-term by competing interests. Don't rush to count these $20 chickens; the eggs have not even been laid, no less hatched. 7. Why should it be necessary to spell this out? It would have forestalled all of this had the Board provided the membership with some reasonable alternatives to simply slamming the door shut on The Indexer. But let's try to be fair. I was at Seattle. Soon after the Board meeting the whispers around the halls were "Gee! Guess what the Board has done! Wow! Gosh! Golly!" Or, if you prefer, "Damn, Damn, Damn!!" But the point is that before anything could be done in a proper and deliberate manner, touching the necessary bases (if indeed there ever was any serious intention to do so) the matter was leaked on the street and, to continue this mixed metaphor, the fat was in the fire. So much for proper protocol, administrative discretion, and responsible restraint... And before outraged Board members flame me, I would point out that it probably wasn't the Cavanaugh busboys who leaked the decision... So if the hat doesn't fit your head, then please don't wear it. 8. Alternatives? Certainly, such as independent subscriptions to The Indexer. Or, more innovative, using only, say, $5 per member toward a general fund for SI, and then having SI provide individual subscriptions to ASI members at substantially reduced rates. Aha!! Why spend MY $5 toward a reduced subscription for somebody else for a journal that I don't especially want? UNFAIR!!! Not at all. ASI does (should?) support our profession as a whole, and making the Indexer available to its members at reduced rates does, in my view, help strengthen us all even though in some cases the journal is not relevant to a specific indexer. The argument might be analogous to continuing to pay school taxes in your community even though your children have grown up and moved away. There still is some flickering merit to the idea of the Common Good... 9. It would be helpful, of course, if the Board, or some designated member thereof, made a rational, logical explanation, in simple English. of how and why the infamous Indexer Decision was made, rather than simply remaining silent and allowing this disputation to continue unabated. 10. Keep in mind, please, that altrhough dropping The Indexer might be an example of Board ineptitude in bringing important issues before the membership, it also is the tip of a much larger and more dangerous iceberg: How do we address the basic questions of ASI structure, ASI mission, ASI staffing, and ASI financing? 11. The last issue of Keywords had a message from the President outlining what seems to be the Board's conception of the Millennial ASI (my phrase, not theirs). If this is the case, I object to having the Board, through a note in Keywords, appear to hand down a decree as to where ASI will be going in the future. If I am mistaken then I offer my apologies up front. But it seems that this mission statement was developed in closed Board meeting(s). Keywords then apparently published a list of Board-approved ASI goals and did not, if I read it correctly, state clearly that this was merely a tentative list intended to stimulate thought and discussion, or indicate what the next steps would be. Again, if I missed this I apologize for my oversight. 12. I don't believe that any Board, past, present or future, has the right to determine privately and in closed session, what the fundamental direction of ASI should be for the forseeable future. I don't want to be told, I want to be asked. This, I suggest, is the fundamental issue of which dropping the subscription to The Indexer is only one small manifestation. I do not flatter myself that my views are universally shared. I am fairly sure that some (small?) fraction of the ASI membership couldn't care less about these issues, except possibly for the narrow concerns of how much membership will cost them in dollars, and how much professional benefit might accrue to them from the cachet of being an ASI member. There always are persons like that; every organization has them. And in a sense that could be a blessing, for it could be really difficult to deal with a thousand frothing, passionate partisans contesting every issue. Apathy doubtless has its virtues. But not much. 13. And now, perhaps surprisingly, I want to say something in defense of the Board. Primary observation: they're human. So, like most groups of human critters, they get frustrated, experience joy, make great decisions, make lousy decisions, handle themselves well, climb up on pedestals, exercise extreme patience, storm off in a huff (a small British car - - usually blue), form miserable little cliques, offer unstinting help to others, yada-yada- yada, world without end. They also are unpaid, often are required to make complex decisions entirely without prior administrative experience, and usually have difficulty threading the line between prudent decision-making and wafffing. But remember, eventually the buck stops with the President and the Board, and it could be quite unfair, in most circumstances, for some members to carp and complain when they never had to stand up and face the potential wrath of the entire membership for their decisions. As Lincoln said: "You can't please all of the membership all of the time. Some people just can't be satisfied" Or words to that effect. But the Board are in office to represent the interests of the membership, not to run a private fiefdom based on personal preferences. So the president, the Board and the membership must work cooperatively or ASI will fail. It really is that simple. But please remember this: The Board has the right to make mistakes. Not all the time, but now and then. Most of us probably couldn't do much better; all we would do is change the mix of successes and failures. So let's not rush to judgement. Let's give the new Board, and the new President, a chance to settle in. An American admiral once observed that good management isn't characterized by the absence of mistakes; it is characterized by the manner in which mistakes are handled. That is my concern with the Board and with the critical need for Board-Membership cooperation. With regard to the comment on Index-L expressing the hope the Board will be responsive to these online commentaries: Note, please, that Index-L is not an official venue for ASI, or required reading for the Board.. Best wishes, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:26:19 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: Note on the Board and The Indexer (long) ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote: > > All - > > Well, once again the stress level on Index-L seems to be rising, and once > again the Board apparently has failed, as it does with such consummate skill, > to communicate a balanced and meaningful explanation to the ASI membership > either before or after dropping The Indexer. > > The point here is not to start a "Let's Dump On the Board" flame war. My > point is that the Board has failed to communicate its reasons for the Indexer > Decision, and apparently for other more important decisions. The comments on > Index-L regarding The Indexer, reasonable as most are, largely address > peripheral issues. As I see it, the most important immediate questions about > this issue are "Why was The Indexer dropped? Were there alternatives? Could > this decision have been made at another time (i.e., not in a closed Board > meeting at Seattle) or made in another way? And, last: Why wasn't this matter > presented to the membership before the decision was implemented?'" These are > both financial and procedural questions. (snip) I thought that Lori Lathrop's letter to ASI members, which is posted on the ASI web site: http://www.asindexing.org/pres1.htm answered many of these questions. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:22:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Society of Indexers' conference in Tynemouth, England, October 1998 BRACING UP TO INDEXING - A CONFERENCE BY THE SEA The SOCIETY OF INDEXERS' annual conference for 1998 is to take place at the Grand Hotel, Grand Parade, Tynemouth, Tyne & Wear, NE30 4ER, England on 9=9611 October 1998. The Tynemouth conference is designed to be primarily a practical indexing conference with sessions run by indexers for indexers. Our keynote speaker is Nancy Mulvany, author of =91Indexing Books', Associate Editor of The Indexer and past ASI President. There will be panel discussions on the indexer/editor relationship (with senior representatives of major publishing houses on the panel); electronic aspects of indexing (including indexing for CD-ROMs and the web, Year 2000 compliance, and using the internet to attract business); indexing of images and related material and health issues for indexers. Meetings of local and special interest groups will be arranged, and round-table discussions are planned on a wide variety of topics. Software for indexing will also be exhibited during the conference. In addition, an extra-curricular activity is on offer: a qualified instructor in Qigong will supervise early morning exercises. If you are planning to extend your visit to the area you may also be interested to know that the conference is taking place in the middle of the four-week Newcastle season of the Royal Shakespeare Company. The conference will run from midday on Friday until after lunch on Sunday. Workshops will take place on Sunday afternoon (for experienced indexers and trainees) and Monday morning (pre-registration workshop). Details of speakers will be posted on Index-L nearer the time. *Accommodation and conference facilities*: The Grand Hotel, a Victorian spa hotel, was once the summer residence of the Duchess of Northumberland. It is situated next to Long Sands beach and five minutes' walk from the medieval ruins of Tynemouth Priory and Castle and the mouth of the River Tyne. Accommodation is being booked in the Grand and its sister hotel, the Windsor, which is in Whitley Bay, just under two miles away along the sea front. Guests at the Windsor are welcome to stay in the bars at the Grand in the evening for as long as they like; there are taxi services available to take guests back to the Windsor in the small hours. The Windsor is six minutes on foot from Whitley Bay metro station and the Grand 10 minutes from Tynemouth metro. Accommodation at both hotels is excellent, with all rooms en-suite. We are offering a considerably reduced rate for shared accommodation in twin-bedded rooms. Please note that we cannot guarantee rooms with a sea view. Lifts and disabled access are available at the Grand Hotel. Budget accommodation is available in guest houses in Tynemouth and Whitley Bay. If you are interested in this please let us know. All the conference activities will take place in the Grand Hotel. *Getting to Tynemouth*: Tynemouth is approximately 8 miles to the east of Newcastle and is connected to Newcastle Central Station and Newcastle Airport by the Tyne & Wear metro. Train journey times from London, Manchester and Birmingham to Newcastle range between 2 hours 40 minutes and 3 hours 15 minutes (slightly longer on Sundays). The train journey from Edinburgh to Newcastle is about one and a half hours. Newcastle airport has several flights a day from Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted as well as from most other major British cities. International connections include direct flights to Dublin, Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris and Bergen. Although there will be limited free time during the conference itself, we may (weather permitting) arrange a trip to the many castles on the coast north of Newcastle or to Hadrian's Wall on the Sunday afternoon if there is sufficient interest. -------------------------------------------------- BOOKING FORM Please return by 30 June 1998 or as soon as possible after that date to Audrey Judkins, Treasurer, Society of Indexers Conference 1998, 134 Elwick Road, HARTLEPOOL, Cleveland, TS26 9LX, England (Tel: +44 1429 274731) Name: ___________________________________________ Address: ___________________________________________ ___________________________________________ ___________________________________________ Phone/Fax No(s): ____________________________________ e-mail address ___________________________=09 --------------------- The following fees include dinner on Friday and Saturday night, and breakfast and lunch on Saturday and Sunday as well as the costs of attendance at all conference sessions within the Grand Hotel (there is no separate registration fee). Please indicate number of places required (20 pounds sterling excess for non-members will be refunded on joining the Society of Indexers): *Grand Hotel* Resident SI member in single room at 190 pounds sterling per person ..... Resident SI member in shared room at 145 pounds sterling per person ...... Resident non-SI member in single room at 210 pounds sterling per person .. Resident non-SI member in shared room at 165 pounds sterling per person .. Windsor Hotel Resident SI member in single room at 175 pounds sterling per person ...... Resident SI member in shared room at 130 pounds sterling per person ...... Resident non-SI member in single room at 195 pounds sterling per person .. Resident non-SI member in shared room at 150 pounds sterling per person .. I will be sharing a room with _________________________ NB We are not able to decide who will share with whom. Please arrange this yourselves if possible. If you wish to be put in touch with someone to share with ring +44 191-414 2595. ----------------- The following fees for non-residents include lunch on Saturday and Sunday and the costs of attendance at all conference sessions within the Grand Hotel. =20 Non-resident SI member at 66/78*/90** pounds sterling per person Non-resident non-SI member at 86/98*/110** pounds sterling per person * including Friday OR Saturday dinner ** including Friday AND Saturday dinner (please state which) Do you have any special dietary requirements? Do you require disabled access? Any other special requirements? I should/should not be interested in a trip to the Coast/Hadrian's Wall on Sunday afternoon. The number of rooms in each hotel is limited. I accept that my first choice may not be available. I enclose _______________ in full advance payment for the place(s) reserved above Signed ________________________________ Date _____________ Cheques should be made payable to The Society of Indexers Conference 1998 and sent to Audrey Judkins, Treasurer, Society of Indexers Conference 1998, 134 Elwick Road, HARTLEPOOL, Cleveland, TS26 9LX, England. NOTE: Any bookings received after 30 June 1998 may incur an administrative charge, and will be taken subject to availability of accommodation. The full programme and maps will be sent out in August 1998. Although well advanced, the conference programme is not yet finalized. We should like to involve as many indexers as possible. If you would be prepared to participate in a forum, round-table discussion, or poster session on the practical topics already suggested, or on any other topic of particular interest to you, please give details below: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:42:39 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: Note on the Board and The Indexer (long) Whew!!! I've been reading my email this morning, most of it on INDEX-L, and most of it contradictory. (And what follows is paraphrased.) "Who does the board think it is making decisions without asking the membership?" "Why is the board asking for opinions. Didn't we elect them to make these decisions?" Guess I don't understand something fundamental to all this. I belong to other professional organizations, and for the most part, the board sets policy for the society. The results of board meetings are published in the society newsletters, and people can either live with the results or get in touch with their representatives to voice their disapproval. Better yet, stay in touch with what the board is doing and give them your opinions before they vote. If our elected representatives in Washington--sorry those of you in other countries--had to ask our individual opinions on every topic of importance before they voted, they'd get even less done than they do now. And they are in office for at least 2 years, some for 6, and many stay on interminably. Our board leadership changes yearly, and before the president can even get the chair warmed up, the next president is chomping at the bit in the wings. (Given this brawl, next year probably can't come soon enough for Lori.) :-) My take on this is that if ASI is in the financial trouble as reported in the announcement of the Indexer decision, then either past elected boards have fallen asleep at the switch, or the membership--that's us folks--has been completely uninvolved in what the board has been doing. If I may return to my Washington analogy, then we have gotten the government we deserve. Why are we only *now* asking questions about the financial health of the society? Where were we last year and the year before when the decisions were being made--and not communicated--that led to this financial situation that requires immediate action. If *we* let the board run the society in complete isolation from our input for years, then I don't think we have a lot to complain about when a new board tries to make a strategically important decision and communicates that decision to us. Why don't we rage at past boards? I see this board's actions as responsible. There is an apparent financial crisis. Time doesn't allow creating and testing a meaningful questionnaire, sending it to the membership, waiting for 10 percent of the members to respond, then making a decision. By then ASI is broke? Would you wait that long to solve a financial problem in your business or family? I'm not a political animal. I've tried several jobs in other societies, and have come away shaking my head that anyone in his or her right mind would continue to take jobs like that. If I were an ASI board member, I'd be looking in my thesaurus for different ways of saying "I quit!" Rather than complaining about why this decision was made "in secret" or "in public" depending on your viewpoint, how about suggesting some solutions: "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem." Tell the board members not that they are a bunch of tyrannical idiots, but that you'd like to see the dues raised to include the cost of a subscription to the Indexer. Or, tell them that you'd like to keep the dues at a lower level and subscribe to the Indexer on your own. Sheesh! Be constructive. Save your nitpicking for your professional work where it counts and is productive, not divisive. ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:39:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: Genus and species indexing. In-Reply-To: <199806160411.AAA01017@calval-2.gsfc.nasa.gov> Cynthia writes: >>The person (not named here in Barry's reply) who wrote the message to Susan is right, according to the booklet printed by the British Society of Indexers (Indexing the Medical and Biological Sciences, 1995). On page 34, "Where several species of the same genus are to be listed there are two forms of approach [note: all names are in italics and the B. botulinus example is cited as it was in the booklet]: Bacillus alvei Bacillus anthracis Bacillus larvae Bacillus botulinus see Clostridium botulinum or Bacillus B. alvei B. anthracis B. larvae B. botulinus see Clostridium botulinum ....Species without a generic initial should NEVER be used as subheadings." In other words, Bacillus alvei anthracis botulinus (see Clostridium botulinum) larvae is not correct. One reason that the authors give is that, when the index page are turned and the index is structured like this last example, it can create confusion. Another reason is that these are examples of compound names. << I'm sorry y'all, but this argument of "One reason that the authors give is that, when the index pages are turned and the index is structured like this last example, it can create confusion," just doesn't make sense to me. First of all, if the index is structured as in the second example of B. alvei, B. anthracis, etc., when you turn the page, it's _still_ going to be confusing if someone just sees "B. alvei" on the first line of the first column. There must be many genera of microbes that start with a "B" after all. Second of all, in a good index, when you have a column or page where entries are continued from the bottom of the preceding column or page, there should be a "continued" statement on that first line of the new column or page, e.g., "Bacillus (cont.)" or something like that, before the next subentries are given. My $0.05. Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:57:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Herr Hallinger Organization: Herr's Indexing Service Subject: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget Someone (Charlotte?) wrote that they had recently joined ASI and were looking forward to receiving the Indexer. To that I say good luck! I am still waiting for the October issue. The Indexer is not an important part of my ASI membership, since I rarely see it! I think the choice of having the Indexer as a membership option is a reasonable solution. Those that actually get the Indexer and enjoy reading it can then pay extra for it. Those of us who do not receive it or enjoy it, would no longer have to pay for it. Linda Hallinger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:11:54 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Note on the Board In a message dated 98-06-15 22:39:53 EDT, Bob Richardson wrote: << With regard to the comment on Index-L expressing the hope the Board will be responsive to these online commentaries: Note, please, that Index-L is not an official venue for ASI, or required reading for the Board.. >> Very true and, since posing a request for some explanation of operating guidelines re decision-making by the Bd, I have learned that the Bd considers Index-L an inapproprate forum to discuss business. OK. Then, what mechanism is available to the membership to ask organizational questions or give input on issues? Do we need to attend every Bd mtg, which of course is not an option if some mtgs are "closed"? And, even if all were open, the agendas might not include non-Bd input. Do we have to lobby each individual Bd member to not only stay informed but to attempt to influence consequent actions? What do we need do to become a truly participative member of our professional organization? Just elect Bd members and stay out of their hair? What?? Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:38:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Barbara Cohen wrote: >To Martha and anyone else who might have taken offense about my comments about >new indexers being less committed to THE INDEXER: > >I agree 100 percent that new indexers need THE INDEXER as much or more than >experienced indexers do. I'm just not sure that they will vote to maintain our >subscriptions rather than keep costs down, when the issue is presented in the >way it has been presented by the Board. After all, the journal can be somewhat >dry and scholarly on occasion (although many of us cherish its entertainment >value). I only meant to convey that new indexers might have less commitment to >the journal than long-term ASI members do. > >As for your other comments, I couldn't agree more. We need to put our money >where our mouths are, shell out to support the organization and a living wage >for our employee (who works hard to keep up our facade to the world), and we >need to grow the organization, not cut valued services. > >Let's hope the Board is listening. > >Barbara E. Cohen >Indianapolis, IN Not only that, but at our recent chapter meeting, another problem with the ballot methodology was revealed: because of the delivery problems of the INDEXER, one person who has been an ASI member for just over one year has never SEEN the INDEXER, so her vote was based solely on second-hand comments. If the turnover rate in ASI is as large as 30% per year, how many very new members received this ballot and don't even know what we are talking about? Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter American Society of Indexers *What's indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:39:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget Ditto. I've never received The Indexer. Elizabeth _______________________________________________ > "Correspondence is the consolation of life." - Voltaire -----Original Message----- From: Linda Herr Hallinger [mailto:index@TOGETHER.NET] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 11:57 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: THE INDEXER vs. The Budget Someone (Charlotte?) wrote that they had recently joined ASI and were looking forward to receiving the Indexer. To that I say good luck! I am still waiting for the October issue. The Indexer is not an important part of my ASI membership, since I rarely see it! I think the choice of having the Indexer as a membership option is a reasonable solution. Those that actually get the Indexer and enjoy reading it can then pay extra for it. Those of us who do not receive it or enjoy it, would no longer have to pay for it. Linda Hallinger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:54:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Note on the Board Diane Worden wrote: >Very true and, since posing a request for some explanation of operating >guidelines re decision-making by the Bd, I have learned that the Bd considers >Index-L an inapproprate forum to discuss business. OK. > >Then, what mechanism is available to the membership to ask organizational >questions or give input on issues? Do we need to attend every Bd mtg, which of >course is not an option if some mtgs are "closed"? And, even if all were open, >the agendas might not include non-Bd input. Do we have to lobby each >individual Bd member to not only stay informed but to attempt to influence >consequent actions? What do we need do to become a truly participative member >of our professional organization? Just elect Bd members and stay out of their >hair? What?? > Diane in Kazoo > I agree with the Board's position that Index-L is not the place to discuss ASI business. But ASI does have a very functional Web site, and (with all due respect to ASI's Web site committee, which I am not on) perhaps it would be an option to incorporate a message board specifically for the purpose of notifying interested members of what's going on, and accepting feedback from said members. Occaisional notes could be posted to Index-L alerting people to interesting discussions or Board notices. Another option would be a separate ASI-Board listserv, for those of us who would like to be more closely in touch with these issues, with a link to the archives of the listserv from the ASI Web pages. I am one of those members who would welcome more information about what's going on at the Board level. I might not have an opinion about every issue (then again, I might!), but I would very much appreciate the opportunity to make my voice heard on those issues that are important to me. It does strike me that this is a moment in ASI's history when it is important to make decisions that will truly serve its members. And I frankly don't see how the Board can do that without knowing what is important to the members. The strategic planning questionnaire was useful in a general, big-picture sort of way. But there are obviously a multitude of issues intertwined with the Indexer/ASI budget question, as has been eloquently pointed out here in the last couple of days, yet because the Board (rightly) chooses not to use Index-L as a forum for Board business, we really have no way of knowing the details of those issues. Consequently our reply to the questionnaire recently sent out can't be much more than whistling in the dark. Finally, while I have not a shred of experience setting up Web sites or listservs (although lord knows I've indexed enough books on such topics!), I would be willing to work with someone who *does* have some experience to make something like this happen. Assuming, of course, that there was sufficient interest from both the Board and other ASI members. ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:59:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karin Arrigoni Subject: ASI's directory > Just out of curiousity...has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from > their listing in ASI's directory? Thanks! > Kari Miller Hi Kari, One of the larger computer companies in my area called me in January regarding indexing a programming reference manual for them. When I asked them who referred me, I was very pleased to hear that they heard about me through the ASI (Indexer Services). The client was great to work with and said that she would use me for her next Frame indexing project. That one job referral will pay for several years of my ASI membership and future listings in Indexer Services, so I'd say it was definitely worth it! Karin Arrigoni ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:32:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Note on the Board In a message dated 98-06-16 12:57:29 EDT, Caroline Parks wrote: << with all due respect to ASI's Web site committee, which I am not on) perhaps it would be an option to incorporate a message board specifically for the purpose of notifying interested members of what's going on, and accepting feedback from said members. Occaisional notes could be posted to Index-L alerting people to interesting discussions or Board notices. Another option would be a separate ASI-Board listserv, for those of us who would like to be more closely in touch with these issues, with a link to the archives of the listserv from the ASI Web pages. I am one of those members who would welcome more information about what's going on at the Board level. I might not have an opinion about every issue (then again, I might!), but I would very much appreciate the opportunity to make my voice heard on those issues that are important to me. >> Caroline's remarks point to solving the problem many of us are facing, for which I and probably many lurkers thank her. Today, while revisiting my Seattle notes for chapter purposes, I was reminded of how three of the four organizational panelists on "International indexing" noted that communication with members and among their leaders is of present concern. Besides the suggestions Caroline made, I'd like to tweek ASI's organizational structure by adding a Bd subcommittee or Bd-delegated task force to do the background research on issues for balanced presentation along with ballot proposals Uninformed voting is almost worse than not voting at all. The results are not worth much. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: ASI, the Board, The Indexer, and Index-L Everyone has been making superb comments, and analyzing the situation so well. I'm wondering though, if the board feels Index-L is not a proper venue, is anyone from the board (or ASI) being CC'd on any of these comments? Everything being discussed is worthwhile for the board to know, but they do need to _see_ it. As we continue to discuss ASI and the board, shouldn't we CC those relevant to the discussion, instead of hoping they hear us by telepathy or innuendo? Just a thought. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Name index work available Anyone available for some name index work? I'm nearing the end at last of the subject index for a bruiser 1200 pg school psychology text. However I still have about 15 chapters of name index left. You may have read my posts on scanning, whether or not to include all the names, etc. The work involved ranges from a minimum of 1 hour up to as much as 4-5 hours on some grueling chapters. They average about 2 hours. Typically they have 20-30 text pages and 4-12 reference pages. Each chapter has its own reference section. Initials are not included in the text cites, so there are a minimum of 3 steps involved: 1) typing the references in as they appear in the text, 2) retrieving initials from the reference section 3) splitting up the multi-name references. Alternatively you could enter/scan all the names in the reference section first and then go through the text to get the page numbers. I prefer the first method because once the references from the text are all entered with their proper page numbers you can start at the beginning (good place to start) in edit mode and the references on the screen will be in the same exact order as they appear on the reference pages; this makes the step of adding the initials a relative bunny. I already have 3 people helping me but the more the merrier. My deadline for the name index is Monday. What I'd like ideally is to find 2-3 people who can each do say 2-4 chapters each; this should be a managable portion and reduce _your_ chances of name index psychosis; which has been shown by Bandura et al. (1968) to occur primarily in the event of simultaneous subject index duties. I on the other hand am beyond help! Well actually I was before this but that's another story. Since I'd be able to send chapters tommorrow by Fed Ex for Thurs AM arrival the time frame is not too terribly bad. I'd prefer e-mail return of the finished chapter name indexes. You'll want to charge me by either the reference or hour whichever you prefer. I on the other hand made the mistake of bidding $ 1/page for the name index and will probably take a big hit on the name index. thanks Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:32:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Deason Subject: New to indexing I have been reading this list for a couple of weeks and have not yet read any posts from people new to indexing, so I hope it is okay to ask some questions here. I am interested in learning indexing and the only class I have been able to find is a correspondence course from the "USDA, Graduate School." Is this a good course? Is it reasonable to expect to find indexing work after taking this course? Can people begin indexing on a freelance basis or is it necessary to get experience first before working on your own? Do any indexers ever specialize in a specific topics, such as art, music, etc? Well, these are just a few of the questions I have. Thanks for your help. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:40:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Name index work available Kevin, I'm brand new to indexing; still taking the USDA course. Right now I am doing a test project for indexing with a legal publishing house, but I'd love to get a bit of "real" experience. If you don't get enough takers, please let me know. I do have SKY professional, so software isn't a problem. My mailing address is: Jeri Lee 17236 - 140th Avenue SE, #505 Renton, Washington 98058 Phone: (425) 254-1352 indexer@INETCOM.NET wrote: > > Anyone available for some name index work? I'm nearing the end at > last of the subject index for a bruiser 1200 pg school psychology text. > However I still have about 15 chapters of name index left. You may have > read my posts on scanning, whether or not to include all the names, etc. > The work involved ranges from a minimum of 1 hour up to as much as 4-5 hours > on some grueling chapters. They average about 2 hours. Typically they have > 20-30 text pages and 4-12 reference pages. Each chapter has its own > reference section. Initials are not included in the text cites, so there are > a minimum of 3 steps involved: 1) typing the references in as they appear in > the text, 2) retrieving initials from the reference section 3) splitting up > the multi-name references. Alternatively you could enter/scan all the names > in the reference section first and then go through the text to get the page > numbers. I prefer the first method because once the references from the > text are all entered with their proper page numbers you can start at the > beginning (good place to start) in edit mode and the references on the > screen will be in the same exact order as they appear on the reference > pages; this makes the step of adding the initials a relative bunny. > I already have 3 people helping me but the more the merrier. > My deadline for the name index is Monday. What I'd like ideally is > to find 2-3 people who can each do say 2-4 chapters each; this should be a > managable portion and reduce _your_ chances of name index psychosis; which > has been shown by Bandura et al. (1968) to occur primarily in the event of > simultaneous subject index duties. I on the other hand am beyond help! > Well actually I was before this but that's another story. > Since I'd be able to send chapters tommorrow by Fed Ex for Thurs AM > arrival the time frame is not too terribly bad. I'd prefer e-mail return of > the finished chapter name indexes. You'll want to charge me by either the > reference or hour whichever you prefer. I on the other hand made the > mistake of bidding $ 1/page for the name index and will probably take a big > hit on the name index. > > thanks > Kevin Mulrooney > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dyslexics of the world untie! > > First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 > 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net > Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:46:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Name index work available Obviously, I didn't check the "To" box! "Scuse me!" JL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:49:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: names (for your amusement) In-Reply-To: <199806160414.XAA01605@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Of COURSE we knew that! Doesn't EVERYBODY?? But who are Bill and Ted? The >authors? > Bill and Ted, as in _Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure_ and _Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey_. In the end, I did get this index done on time. It's gone, gone, gone, and I'm taking the week OFF!!!!! Party on, dudes, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Thanks: Name index work available Thanks to the people who responded to my work available note. I wanted to post to say I would seem to have more than enough people to help me and I don't need any further offers of assistance. I can find something to do for everyone who's gotten into contact with me for sure. I think the best approach would be to spread it pretty thin. I'm still responsible for the name index for each chapter, but as soon as I give up direct physical control of the situation it's as they say "out of my hands"; or as I like to say "the toothpaste is out of the tube", which I happen to like since it expresses the unidirectional nature of entropy. So in the very unlikely event someone freaks and in the long lonely hours of their private torment decides this isn't what they wanted to do, any one person won't have too much impact and the deadline will still be met. [talk about your psychotic statements] Not that I have the slightest fear anyone will, although almost all were new indexers who contacted me. I think the Index-L crowd has seen a fair bit of natural selection already. I missed a FedEx deadline tonight to send some stuff to a woman from Baltimore who's name I got from Maria Coughlin's crew. I survived travelling at 75-85 mph on I-95, (but if you press me on it I'll deny it!) only to get there about 2 minutes before 8:00, and discovered in my rush I'd picked up the sheet with her number but not the one with her address! In addition, in my advanced state of name index psychosis I spaced the fact that I could have used my calling card and gotten her address, since I had a _means_ to the end of getting her address. So I thought I'd use the extra time to write up a brief instruction sheet for everyone who contacted me. It will have detailed instructions. You'll have it with the material I send. thanks Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 04:47:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Monday Gift Pam Rider wrote about her discovery of Douglas Hofstadter's Le Ton beau d= e Marot, with its idiosyncratic index, and Mirjana Martic asked for more information about the book. I'm sure Pam will reply with her own description, but I would like to dra= w attention unblushingly to my short article on the book and its index, und= er the title "Marot, Hofstadter, index" in The Indexer, Vol. 21, No. 1 (now distributed to Society of Indexers members in this country; have any othe= r Index-L readers seen it yet?). It's difficult to explain what this unusual book is about - I've tried to= do so in my article. It's basically about translation and language (the subtitle is "In praise of the music of language"). The title refers to th= e French 16th-century poet Clement Marot; Hofstadter includes in his book a= number of translations of a short poem by Marot, to illustrate the almost= infinite possibilities open to the translator and, more generally, to use= rs of the English language. Mirjana, and everyone else, do rush out and buy it. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:02:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: more on Society of Indexers conference in Tynemouth It seems that I used an en-dash when mentioning the dates of the conference - which may make them illegible. So - here are the definitive dates of the 1998 Society of Indexers conference in Tynemouth, England: October 9th through October 11th 1998. If you're interested in coming - and we should be delighted to have representatives from all countries where indexing takes place - here are some web sites you might find helpful: Grand Hotel, Tynemouth http://www.theaa.co.uk/region1/2600.html Tynemouth Priory and Castle http://www.leisurehunt.com/info/tynpr.htm Tyne & Wear metro http://on-tyne.north-east.co.uk/metro-summary.asp Trains to Newcastle http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/VG/trail.html Newcastle airport http://www.newcastleairport.com/index.html Castles on the coast north of Newcastle http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~wendavey/castles.html Hadrian's Wall http://www.northumbria-tourist-board.org.uk/hadrian/index.htm Qigong - http://www.robelle.com/~dlo/qigong/brochure.html Royal Shakespeare Company http://www.royal-shakespeare.co.uk/ Drusilla Calvert for 1998 Conference Committee hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:04:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marlene London Subject: October indexing conference in England Having inadvertently deleted the e-mail notice on the indexing conference to take place in England in October, I'd be grateful if someone would forward it to me. Marlene London Profindex@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:25:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: names (for your amusement) I was only kidding about not knowing who B&T were...should have punctuated with my cheeked tongue...but thanks for thinking of me. Go relax and enjoy! Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Note on the Board In-Reply-To: <199806170414.XAA13437@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Diane Worden wrote: >>Very true and, since posing a request for some explanation of operating >>guidelines re decision-making by the Bd, I have learned that the Bd >considers >>Index-L an inapproprate forum to discuss business. OK. Caroline Parks wrote: >I agree with the Board's position that Index-L is not the place to discuss >ASI business. But ASI does have a very functional Web site, and (with all This is perhaps a nitpicky matter of syntax, but I assumed that Diane (and the Board?) meant only that this is an inappropriate for the *Board* to conduct its own business. Not that this is an inappropriate place for *ASI members* to discuss the Board's actions among ourselves. One would hope that the Board wouldn't try to dictate how and where we talk to each other. Given how far-flung we are and how immediate e-mail is, I think this is an entirely appropriate place for us to talk about this and all issues that affect us professionally. Power to the people! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:14:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Thanks: Name index work available Kevin, From this, may I look forward to receiving a package from you tomorrow morning? (I hope, I hope!) Jeri indexer@INETCOM.NET wrote: . I can find something > to do for everyone who's gotten into contact with me for sure. I think the > best approach would be to spread it pretty thin. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:25:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: ASI matters and index-l Here's the "official" word from the list owner. As most of you know, Index-l is not an ASI listserv. That does not mean that ASI business cannot be discussed here. It is the only place to do this at present. About 75% of a little over 1000 subscribers are from the US, and many of those are ASI members. Keep in mind that those who are not ASI members are not particularly interested in ASI matters. This is true of most of the discussions carried on here. There is probably no topic that is of interest to 100% of the subscribers. The recent discussion deals with important matters that deserve a forum. My concern is that we not get carried away. That is, keep the discussion brief and to the point and not reiterate points that have already been made. I assure you that many if not all board members are subscribers to the listserv and are aware of the concerns being voiced. Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:52:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: "Scuze me, (again) Sorry - I keep forgetting to check the "to" box! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:11:05 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Note on the Board > >Caroline Parks wrote: >>I agree with the Board's position that Index-L is not the place to discuss >>ASI business. But ASI does have a very functional Web site, and (with all > >This is perhaps a nitpicky matter of syntax, but I assumed that Diane (and >the Board?) meant only that this is an inappropriate for the *Board* to >conduct its own business. Not that this is an inappropriate place for *ASI >members* to discuss the Board's actions among ourselves. One would hope >that the Board wouldn't try to dictate how and where we talk to each other. >Given how far-flung we are and how immediate e-mail is, I think this is an >entirely appropriate place for us to talk about this and all issues that >affect us professionally. Power to the people! > I completely agree that some form of internet-based communication is essential for ASI members to discuss matters of concern to us. I think the point here is that Index-L has no organizational connection with ASI, so subscribers to Index-L are not automatically interested in what's going on with ASI. I personally would prefer to have Index-L remain a "nuts and bolts of indexing" venue (including those occaisional water-cooler chats!), and to receive separately (filtered into a different mailbox in my email program) information and discussion about ASI policy questions. Of course, YMMV (I've been waiting months for an opportunity to use that abbreviation ;D ). That's why I think a separate listserv for ASI business would be a good thing. Caroline ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:41:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Thanks: Name index work available At 08:14 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Kevin, > >>From this, may I look forward to receiving a package from you tomorrow >morning? (I hope, I hope!) > >Jeri > Yes. Be sure you've sent me your snail mail address. I may send it standard overnight for tommorrow since I will be sending 4-5 packages out. It will probably just be one chapter. Thanks Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:04:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: ASI matters and index-l At 11:25 AM 6/17/1998 -0400, Charlotte Skuster wrote: >The recent discussion deals with important matters that deserve a forum. >My concern is that we not get carried away. That is, keep the discussion >brief and to the point and not reiterate points that have already been >made. I assure you that many if not all board members are subscribers to >the listserv and are aware of the concerns being voiced. Some ideas... If discussion continues here, we could put "ASI" in the subject line so that uninterested persons don't have to wade through these messages. We could also, alternatively, form an email list of persons who do wish to discuss the ASI situation in depth...and, essentially, "take it to email." ASI could structure some sort of mechanism at its website to accept discussion or comments so that those of us who would like to do so, can interactively talk about these issues in a more appropriate forum. (I'm sure we can leave email at the website, but I was thinking more along the lines of a message board.) I think =having= this discussion is at least as important as any specific solutions that might be developed. I would hate to see people stop talking because of a fear of taking excess bandwidth, or annoying other list members, or airing disagreements in public, or any other reason. I would really like to find a compromise that enables us to continue the conversation AND involve the ASI board...while not excessively disrupting normal list traffic. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:11:56 -0700 Reply-To: vbirchfield@kalesis.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Re: Monday Gift- more on Hofstadter Thanks, Christine, I'll be looking forward to your article. I believe Hofstadter received a Pulitzer for his "G=F6del, Escher, Bach":= An Eternal Golden Braid. A Metaphorical Fugue on Minds and Machines in the Spirit of Lewis Carroll". As Christine said of Le Ton beau de Marot, it's difficult to explain what it's about - the Library of Congress categories= are Metamathematics, Symmetry, Artificial Intelligence. First published in = 1979, it became an 'instant classic' in computer science/AI. The work is breathtaking in scope, depth and playfulness. From the Overview (expanded Table of Contents), "The book opens with the = story of Bach's "Musical Offering". Bach made an impromptu visit to King Frede= rick the Great of Prussia, and was requested to improvise upon a theme present= ed by the King. His improvisations formed the basis of that great work. The "Musical Offering" and its story form a theme upon which I "improvise" throughout the book, thus making a sort of "Metamusical Offering". Self-reference and the interplay between different levels in Bach are discussed; this leads to a discussion of parallel ideas in Escher's drawi= ngs and then G=F6del's Theorem....the history of logic and paradoxes is given= as background for G=F6del's Theorem. This leads to mechanical reasoning and computers, and the debate about whether Artificial Intelligence is possible...." The index has a note pointing the reader to a diagram within the text "fo= r possible help in crossreferences". The diagram itself is a complex web ("semantic network") of topics connected by lines. Worth a look at, even= if you don't want to tackle the whole book. Vicki ********************* Vicki Birchfield Kalesis Systems (206) 524-2026 vbirchfield@kalesis.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:28:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Index-L subscribers Charlotte Skuster wrote: "About 75% of a little over 1000 subscribers are from the US" I wonder where you get your information from? As previously mentioned on the list the email address is not a reliable indication of the sender's snail mail address. If anyone has a list of countries represented by Index-L subscribers I would be glad to see it - I am still trying to find= out more about indexing in countries other than those affiliated to the Society of Indexers. Best wishes Sue Lightfoot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:28:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: New to indexing Don't forget the British Society of Indexers course "Training in Indexing". There are five open learning course units with test papers leading to Accreditation for members of the society. It's an excellent distance learning course with good feedback. Further information may be obtained from: = Society of Indexers Mermaid House 1 Mermaid Court London SE1 1HR England or I can email details to you if you contact me. Sue Lightfoot Cornwall, England ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:59:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Messy Reference Locators At 09:40 PM 6/15/98 -0700, Renate Jones wrote: >. . . I'm having a hard time determining a reference >locator format that is not extremely *messy* looking. . . . > >The form numbering looks like "QS2-0068" with the important bit being >the last four digits (the serial number). Consequently, I felt ok about >the following format: > >term, 0068: 6-7, 13; 0070: 2 > >However, form numbering looks like "QSF-0068-2" with the important bit >being the four digit serial number and the one digit ID#. Forms are only >a page or two in length, so I don't want to use a hyphen in the locator >and "to" in the page range. (In fact, they're all so short I could forgo >the page #, but I think that would create more visual confusion.) I don't understand your last point here: if you don't need the page numbers, something like "term, 0068; 0068-2; 0070", or "term, QS2-0068; QSF-0068-2; QS?-0070" seems clear to me. But if you do need the page numbers, as in your first example, you could try keeping the hyphens as they are in the form numbers and use en dashes as page range concatenators (as you should anyway). If you're using a proportional font that gives you stubby little hyphens as opposed to long en dashes this may solve it for you. > So, I am considering the following options for forms: > >term, 0068:2: 1-2 >term, 0068_2: 1-2 >term, 0068.2: 1-2 >term, 0068(2): 1-2 I don't care for any of these variations on your actual form, but if I had to pick one it would be the last one. Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:25:58 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI's directory In a message dated 98-06-15 04:12:38 EDT, you write: << Just out of curiousity...has anyone ever gotten an indexing job from their listing in ASI's directory? Thanks! Kari Miller >> No, not from the directory, but I have gotten referrals from ASI members I met by being active in the local ASI chapter. I also had one referral from an indexer I met at a SIG meeting at last year's national conference. So I have gotten work through netwoking in ASI, but not from the directory. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:40:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers In-Reply-To: <199806171732.NAA11382@library.lib.binghamton.edu> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Paul Lightfoot wrote: > I wonder where you get your information from? As previously mentioned on > the list the email address is not a reliable indication of the sender's > snail mail address. If anyone has a list of countries represented by > Index-L subscribers I would be glad to see it - I am still trying to find= > > out more about indexing in countries other than those affiliated to the > Society of Indexers. > > Best wishes > Sue Lightfoot > Sue, That information comes from the listserv software. You can get it too by sending a request to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu review index-l countries noheader You will get a list of subscribers with a listing of countries at the end. Here is the country listing as of today: Country Subscribers ------- ----------- Argentina 1 Australia 24 Canada 51 France 2 Germany 2 Great Britain 20 Iceland 2 Ireland 2 Israel 2 Italy 1 Japan 1 Mexico 1 Netherlands 1 New Zealand 5 South Africa 3 Spain 2 Sweden 1 Taiwan 1 USA 771 ??? 155 Total number of users subscribed to the list: 1048 Total number of countries represented: 20 Charlotte Skuster ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:17:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers review index-l countries noheader On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:40:04 -0400 Charlotte Skuster writes: >On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Paul Lightfoot wrote: > >> I wonder where you get your information from? As previously >mentioned on >> the list the email address is not a reliable indication of the >sender's >> snail mail address. If anyone has a list of countries represented by >> Index-L subscribers I would be glad to see it - I am still trying to >find= >> >> out more about indexing in countries other than those affiliated to >the >> Society of Indexers. >> >> Best wishes >> Sue Lightfoot >> >Sue, > >That information comes from the listserv software. You can get it too >by >sending a request to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu > >review index-l countries noheader > >You will get a list of subscribers with a listing of countries at the >end. >Here is the country listing as of today: > > Country Subscribers > ------- ----------- > Argentina 1 > Australia 24 > Canada 51 > France 2 > Germany 2 > Great Britain 20 > Iceland 2 > Ireland 2 > Israel 2 > Italy 1 > Japan 1 > Mexico 1 > Netherlands 1 > New Zealand 5 > South Africa 3 > Spain 2 > Sweden 1 > Taiwan 1 > USA 771 > ??? 155 > > Total number of users subscribed to the list: 1048 > > Total number of countries represented: 20 > >Charlotte Skuster > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:27:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers You can get it too >by >sending a request to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu > >review index-l countries noheader Don't send the message to the list. At 03:17 PM 6/17/98 EDT, Suellen Kasoff wrote: >review index-l countries noheader > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:25:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Note on the Board I agree. The board certainly shouldn't dictate how and when we talk to each other. What is INDEX-L for? Suellen On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:04:08 -0500 Carol Roberts writes: >>Diane Worden wrote: >>>Very true and, since posing a request for some explanation of >operating >>>guidelines re decision-making by the Bd, I have learned that the Bd >>considers >>>Index-L an inapproprate forum to discuss business. OK. > > >Caroline Parks wrote: >>I agree with the Board's position that Index-L is not the place to >discuss >>ASI business. But ASI does have a very functional Web site, and >(with all > >This is perhaps a nitpicky matter of syntax, but I assumed that Diane >(and >the Board?) meant only that this is an inappropriate for the *Board* >to >conduct its own business. Not that this is an inappropriate place for >*ASI >members* to discuss the Board's actions among ourselves. One would >hope >that the Board wouldn't try to dictate how and where we talk to each >other. >Given how far-flung we are and how immediate e-mail is, I think this >is an >entirely appropriate place for us to talk about this and all issues >that >affect us professionally. Power to the people! > >Cheers, > > >Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My >Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no >pain. >Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer >http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:45:58 -0600 Reply-To: kwelsh@planet.eon.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Welsh Organization: Researcher Writer Editor Subject: Statute indexing I've been asked to quote on indexing a couple of fairly lengthy statutes. (One is 740 sections, 340 pages; the other one is even longer.) Does anyone have a per-page rate to suggest on this kind of work? The figure I've seen here for texts is roughly $3.00 per page (I guess that would $6.00 Canadian!), but it seems to me that statutes would tend to be more intensivily indexed. So far I've found that when I'm editing, I can get a good idea of a rate by just editing for an hour or so, and seeing how many pages I get done. But indexing doesn't seem to work that way, at least for me. I appreciate any help or suggestions -- thanks! Kate -- Kate Welsh, BA(English), LLB Indexing - Research - Substantive editing - Stylistic editing - Writing Briefs - Policies - Legal materials - Manuals - Plain language materials ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:48:27 -0600 Reply-To: kwelsh@planet.eon.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Welsh Organization: Researcher Writer Editor Subject: Statute indexing Thanks to all who replied privately. Just to clarify my previous post, I'm talking about "back-of-the-book" type indexes, for individual statute consolidations. (My jurisdiction is currently not maintaining an index for the whole collection of statutes.) Kate -- Kate Welsh, BA(English), LLB Indexing - Research - Substantive editing - Stylistic editing - Writing Briefs - Policies - Legal materials - Manuals - Plain language materials ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:18:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Non-receipt of Indexer Janet Shuter, editor of The Indexer, has asked me to forward the followin= g message to Index-L subscribers. (forwarded by Christine Shuttleworth) ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- I note that some people are saying they have been ASI members for a year and = have not received The Indexer or that they have not received regular = issues, or that they have still not received the October 1997 issue. As you all know by now, the October issue was delayed until April, and th= e = non-UK copies further delayed, but all qualifying ASI members should have= = received theirs weeks ago. ASI is responsible for sending out missing copies to ASI members. We send= = the ASI admin office a number of extra copies (free of charge) of each = issue automatically so this can be done, and will provide further copies = on request. So if you have not received the October 1997 issue, contact ASI admin = office now, and ask for a free replacement. If you have any problem = getting replacements from ASI you should contact the appropriate ASI boar= d = member, but I would appreciate being kept informed of any problems. By the way, the April 1998 issue has now reached UK members, and should = arrive in the USA within a couple of weeks. We have changed our carrier s= o = that the delays that affected the October issue should not occur. Janet Shuter (shuter@cix.co.uk) Editor, The Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:42:15 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: New to indexing Carol, Since I haven't seen any response to your inquiry I'll take it upon myself to share my experience with you. I took the beginning indexing USDA course ten years ago and found it to be an excellent foundation for indexing. As to getting work; that is really an experience unique to each individual. I would suggest that you join your local ASI chapter as networking with other indexers can be a wonderful source of work. As to the rest of your questions: Many indexers do specialize in general areas according to their background and experience. I immediately began working on a freelance basis and have worked full-time for many years. However, every indexer I know has had their own special route leading to this profession. Despite the current debate going on over ASI I think (I hope) everyone would agree that ASI membership is a wonderful facilitation to an indexing career. I hope that helps to answer some of your questions. Best, Sylvia Coates Carol Deason wrote: > I have been reading this list for a couple of weeks and have not yet read any > posts from people new to indexing, so I hope it is okay to ask some questions > here. I am interested in learning indexing and the only class I have been > able to find is a correspondence course from the "USDA, Graduate School." Is > this a good course? Is it reasonable to expect to find indexing work after > taking this course? Can people begin indexing on a freelance basis or is it > necessary to get experience first before working on your own? Do any indexers > ever specialize in a specific topics, such as art, music, etc? Well, these > are just a few of the questions I have. Thanks for your help. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:34:51 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Note on the Board What is YMMV? Suellen On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:11:05 -0600 Caroline Parks writes: >> >>Caroline Parks wrote: >>>I agree with the Board's position that Index-L is not the place to >discuss >>>ASI business. But ASI does have a very functional Web site, and >(with all >> >>This is perhaps a nitpicky matter of syntax, but I assumed that Diane >(and >>the Board?) meant only that this is an inappropriate for the *Board* >to >>conduct its own business. Not that this is an inappropriate place for >*ASI >>members* to discuss the Board's actions among ourselves. One would >hope >>that the Board wouldn't try to dictate how and where we talk to each >other. >>Given how far-flung we are and how immediate e-mail is, I think this >is an >>entirely appropriate place for us to talk about this and all issues >that >>affect us professionally. Power to the people! >> > >I completely agree that some form of internet-based communication is >essential for ASI members to discuss matters of concern to us. I >think the >point here is that Index-L has no organizational connection with ASI, >so >subscribers to Index-L are not automatically interested in what's >going on >with ASI. > >I personally would prefer to have Index-L remain a "nuts and bolts of >indexing" venue (including those occaisional water-cooler chats!), and >to >receive separately (filtered into a different mailbox in my email >program) >information and discussion about ASI policy questions. Of course, >YMMV >(I've been waiting months for an opportunity to use that abbreviation > ;D ). That's why I think a separate listserv for ASI business would >be a >good thing. > >Caroline >____________________________ > >Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence >Indexing and Editorial Services > >Tijeras, NM >505-286-2738 >caroline@rt66.com > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:20:24 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers Charlotte Skuster wrote: >Here is the country listing as of today: > > Country Subscribers > ------- ----------- > Argentina 1 > Australia 24 > Canada 51 > France 2 > Germany 2 > Great Britain 20 > Iceland 2 > Ireland 2 > Israel 2 > Italy 1 > Japan 1 > Mexico 1 > Netherlands 1 > New Zealand 5 > South Africa 3 > Spain 2 > Sweden 1 > Taiwan 1 > USA 771 > ??? 155 > > Total number of users subscribed to the list: 1048 > > Total number of countries represented: 20 > >Charlotte Skuster > > However, as I pointed out a while ago, and as Sue Lightfoot mentioned, this is not a reliable indicator of the snail mail address. If your e-mail address does not end in a specific indicator of your country of residence, then you are automatically listed under the USA. I imagine it depends on your server whether your address ends in .com or .uk (or the suffix appropriate for any particular country). Because my e-mail address ends in .com I am listed under the USA as are several other people who I know live in the UK. It is the American domination of the computer networks rather than membership of Index-L that shows up on the list. I have just done a check through the addresses of my regular UK-resident e-mail contacts, and this shows addresses ending in: .uk 11 .com 4 .org 3 .net 2 So on the Index-L list by country 9 out of 20 (45 per cent) would be listed under the USA, because they are not specifically UK. Some of them are my own family and I *know* they don't live in the USA. If you take this a step further (and mathematics never was my strong point), does this mean that the 277 subscribers not listed under the USA only represent 55 per cent of true non-USA residents? In other words, 504 subscribers are non-American, which leaves 544 Americans - ie. 52 per cent of the total rather than 75 per cent as claimed by Charlotte. Sorry, this is rather tongue in cheek, but I do feel quite strongly about being assumed to be American unless I happen to have an address that specifically states otherwise. And don't bother checking my calculations and telling me they are wrong! Margaret Binns ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:27:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: tobiah r waldron Subject: Re: Reader I would like more information please. I have been a public speaker and speech instructor for many years. On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:42:00 -0700 George Buys writes: >Volunteer Reader Opportunity > >Audio International, Inc., is seeking volunteers to record >audio clips of stories >appearing in major online newspapers and magazines for the >world to enjoy. > >As a volunteer reader, you'll be sharing what you find >exciting, enriching and informative in an audio format over >the web for those who have difficulty reading print or >scanning a screen. > >For many people, audio is easier. Usee your speaking >skills as a teacher, actor, minister, publisher, >motivational speaker, writer or trainer to reach those who >are blind, visually impaired or learning disabled so they >can enjoy the best in print >through audio streaming. > >Audio International, Inc., has just introduced its new >1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 >for Windows 95, which combines the cutting-edge technology >of voice mail with audio streaming on the Internet. > >As a volunteer reader, you will receive a, free, registered >version of this new software when you are approved and be >featured on a special web site for those who prefer to >receive their information verbally. > >This web site will be absolutely free. We are offering it >as a free service to the blind and visually impaired >community. There is no obligation to purchase the 1-Step >Audio Publisher to access the files which we will create. > >The demo version of our player is an audio-streaming >plug-in for the major browsers. There will be no need to >purchase the player to access any of the files on our site. > >Audio International is a small business in which all of the >officers are either blind or have a physical disability. >There is no government program involved. We are funding >this effort with money out of our own pockets because we >believe it's the right thing to do. > >I'm Audio International's CEO. As a blind person, I know >how much this service >can mean to those of us who are print disabled. > >As a volunteer, here's what you'll gain > >1. You'll become a member of a private e-mail list of >individuals like yourself who have volunteered to >periodically record worthwhile and appealing printed material. > >2. Valuable exposure for your vocal skills. Your web site >and E-mail addresses will accompany each audio clip you post. >Audio International will transfer your recordings to a web >site designed for audio offerings and publicize that site >throughout the Internet. > >3. You'll provide a valuable service for others. This >service will be used and appreciated by many different >groups of people who spend time on the Internet. > >4. You'll receive a, free, registered of our 1-Step Audio >Publisher 2.0, which will give you an easy, 1-step, way to >upload sound files to Audio International's e-mail list - >and to your own ftp server. > >5. You'll receive a comprehensive tutorial with the 1-Step >Audio Publisher 2.0 as well as free individual technical >help to make sure it is working properly. Technical help >from Audio International staff is also available through a >user-based e-mail list. > >But, probably the most exciting benefit of all, is the >ability to place sound clips on your own web site without a >special encoder. You need only four things to publish your >own audio clips > >1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 >a sound card >a microphone >Windows 95 > >The applications for 1-Step range from voice mail and sales >to marketing and audio books, further enhancing the >Internet's capabilities to form virtual communities. > >The audio stream function of 1-Step allows the user, >through a free, standard plug-in, to access sound files >with a browser such as Netscape or Microsoft Internet >Explorer. > >As a volunteer reader, you must be equipped with a pentium >processor, a sound card, a microphone and Windows 95. You >must also have an ftp account >through your ISP. > >When we receive your query about becoming a volunteer >reader, we'll send you >further details about this opportunity. > >To apply as a volunteer reader, telephone me, George Buys, >at 602/503-2659. or send a post to buys@audio-tips.com with apply in >the >subject line. > > >For more information on the 1-Step Audio Publisher and >services which are currently being offered, please visit >our web sites > > >http//www.audio-international.com > >http//www.audio-tips.com > > >Also, if you are a web designer of a disability related web site, >please continue reading. > >As a web designer, we know that innovative tools are always >appreciated and at Audio-International, we are proud to be >able to offer our new 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 for >Windows 95 free of charge, no strings attached, to web >designers of disability related web pages.. If you would >like to take advantage of this exciting offer and receive >an absolutely free, no strings attached, copy of this >revolutionary new product, simply send your name and URL to >buys@audio-tips.com, with disability in the subject line. a >registration >code >will be returned >to you shortly and you will be on your way to Audio >Publishing on the Internet. For more information on the >1-Step Audio Publisher, please read on. > > > >The 1-Step Audio Publisher 2.0 gives you voice e-mail as >well as the ability to place sound clips on your own web >site without a special encoder.The applications for 1-Step >range from marketing your product to communicating with >your customers and visitors by audio, further enhancing >your capability to form virtual communities. > > >Also visit our web sites > > >http//www.audio-international.com > >http//www.audio-tips.com > > >I look forward to hearing from you. > >George Buys >CEO Audio-International >buys@audio-tips.com > > > > > > > > > >This is a request for volunteers to assist in an exciting >new project to assist the blind and visually impaired in >accessing the Internet. If you are not interested in >volunteering your services or in receiving the product >described above, free of charge, please send a >post to buys@audio-international.com, with the word "remove" in the >subject >field of the >message. > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:21:30 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers >From Christine Headley Charlotte Skuster wrote: > Here is the country listing as of today: > Country Subscribers > Great Britain 20 > Iceland 2 >USA 771 > ??? 155 > > Total number of users subscribed to the list: 1048 > > Total number of countries represented: 20 > > Charlotte Skuster I think this illustrates Sue Lightfoot's point. My ISP doesn't have a country code, but regular readers will know that I am in Hong Kong, which isn't listed at all. Best Christine H who will have a British ISP from August or September! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:20:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Note on the Board On 6/17/98 14:34 Suellen Kasoff wrote: >What is YMMV? Suellen Your Mileage May Vary :) Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:31:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: How NOT to get a job A hiring editor, who posted this on another list, said I could share the lesson with Index-L. I have altered the identifying details. ======= > I just received a letter from someone pitching his indexing services. I'm not looking for an indexer, but if I were, this one would be the poster child for how *not* to get the job. > > The letter and promotional materials he sent had just enough errors in them to make me doubt his attention to detail, but it's the second line in the address that really did him in. If this guy wanted to prove his worth as an indexer, he should have stopped to make sure he had typed my employer's name correctly. I'd rather misspell my own name than let a piece go out the door with "Eagle-eye Publishing" on it. Both errors would be highly embarrassing, but Eagle Eye will no doubt be publishing long after I've moved on to other employment, so that's the more important piece of information. > > --Kathy, who promises to be polite and not send the indexer an e-mail message saying "Lose the hyphen and cap the 'e,' bucko" ======= Cheers, Deborah, who is one of a thousand extras for the next two 14-hour days in a Robin Williams movie being shot locally, and thus unreachable for further comment shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:40:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: ASI-related business All -- I have asked the ASI Webmasters to post one announcement (about the new group insurance plans available to ASI members) and two new files for the "Letters from ASI's President" page (http://www.asindexing.org/pres.htm). Happy indexing .... Lori *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com President - 1998-1999, American Society of Indexers Lathrop Media Services, 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 / Phone: 704-531-0021 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:50:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Venneman Subject: Re: Note on the Board YMMV means Your Mileage May Vary Pamela Venneman Lighthouse Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:16:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Note on the Board >What is YMMV? Suellen "Your mileage may vary" - Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:17:26 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers J.A Binns wrote: > > Charlotte Skuster wrote: > > >Here is the country listing as of today: > > > > Country Subscribers > > ------- ----------- > > USA 771 > > ??? 155 > > > > Total number of users subscribed to the list: 1048 > > > > Total number of countries represented: 20 > > > >Charlotte Skuster > > > > > > However, as I pointed out a while ago, and as Sue Lightfoot mentioned, this > is not a reliable indicator of the snail mail address. If your e-mail > address does not end in a specific indicator of your country of residence, > then you are automatically listed under the USA. I imagine it depends on > your server whether your address ends in .com or .uk (or the suffix > appropriate for any particular country). > > > Margaret Binns I'm American! (I thought Hong Kong was in China, actually.) Having received the list Charlotte referred to, I see that the ??? are people whose e-mail addresses end in 'NET', many of whom seem to write to the list from the US of A... So the perceived preponderance of Americans is probably correct, but not necessarily quite as would appear from Charlotte's list. Christine Headley HONG KONG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:31:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Note on the Board At 03:34 PM 6/17/1998 EDT, Suellen Kasoff wrote: >What is YMMV? Suellen "Your Mileage May Vary"...used as a sort of shorthand for, "your experience may be different." =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 04:04:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers Margaret Binns' comments were an eye-opener: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: ASI ballot and The Indexer In-Reply-To: <04100112560697@domain1.bigpond.com> In Australia receipt of The Indexer is optional, and apparently about half of us subscribe. The cost is quite reasonable (it is a special rate for AusSI members). If ASI could still get the special rate it seems to me that debundling the subscription would give everyone the chance to make an individual choice (i.e. those who don't want it pay nothing and don't get it, and those who want it get it at a reasonable rate). (Personally, I have subscribed to The Indexer since I became an indexer, and wouldn't miss it for the world.) Glenda. Christine wrote: >... I would be very upset at having to pay more > for my individual subscription than if ASI increased its fees and > allowed me > to benefit from the special rate it receives. This aspect -- the > actual cost > of an individual subscription compared to ASI's actual rate-- is not clear > on the questionnaire. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:46:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers In-Reply-To: At 04:04 AM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >Margaret Binns' comments were an eye-opener: > >several other people who I know live in the UK. It is the American >domination of the computer networks rather than membership of Index-L tha= >t >shows up on the list. > >That means I, too, must be included among the US subscribers to Index-L, = >as >my address also ends in .com. This makes the whole breakdown worthless. = > > >Christine > >************************************************************* >Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services >Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB >Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 >email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com >or 106234.1745@compuserve.com >************************************************************* > > Christine Yes, you are listed under the USA, as is Christine Headley in Hong Kong. I have just done a quick scan through the USA-listed subscribers and I can only see about 25 with the country code .us at the end of their address. Surely these are the only ones who should be listed under USA, with all the rest added to the 'Country could not be determined for' list (the ones ending in .net). I don't understand why .net is not listed under USA, whereas .com, .edu and .org are. Can someone enlighten me? I am sure Charlotte is right that about 75 per cent of subscribers are American, but I object to the assumptions made in the listing by country. Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:15:03 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: Mutual of Omaha Insurance for ASI members I am FURIOUS. I just checked the ASI web page on the new insurance. It a ll looked great--all kinds of life insurance, medical coveage, DISABILITY coverage, long-term care coverage, IRA stuff--but then it says "you must be [sic] in business for at least one year, have earned $36,000 in the past year".... Just how many ASI members earn $36,000 per year (presumably from indexin g)? I've been indexing full time since 1991, and I've never made $36,000 in a year. My partner has been indexing full time since 1988 (she had been indexing part time since 1977), and she has yet to make $36,000 in a year. Just who is this coverage designed for? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:20:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Note on the Board In a message dated 98-06-17 09:44:11 EDT, Carol Roberts wrote: << I assumed that Diane (and the Board?) meant only that this is an inappropriate for the *Board* to conduct its own business. Not that this is an inappropriate place for *ASI members* to discuss the Board's actions among ourselves. >> I meant to specify that I have come to understand the ASI Bd believes Index-L an inappropriate forum on which to conduct *Bd* business, and I do agree. I also agree with Carol that Index-L is perfect for members to discuss ASI matters for the reasons she stated. Additionally, I believe Bd members have demonstrated that they do read Index-L posts; individually they have contributed expertise many times as individuals to questions and problems raised here. The fact remains that Index-L is an informal conduit of member concern that Bd members may or may not act upon. What I believe ASI needs is an appropriate mechanism for timely member input that includes opinions, reasons, feelings, background info, etc. Bd members now act as best they can from their personal perspectives. A member-input channel would increase their knowledge base (yes, feelings are facts too) for perhaps better decision-making. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:54:18 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: message posting I tried to post a message on index-l recently, but it didn't appear. Are messages vetted for appropriateness? If so, what period of time can one expect to elapse between posting and reappearance on my screen? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:08:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: message posting At 01:54 PM 6/18/98 +0100, David Amundson wrote: > I tried to post a message on index-l recently, but it didn't appear. Are >messages vetted for appropriateness? If so, what period of time can one >expect to elapse between posting and reappearance on my screen? > > The message appeared; if you don't have your settings for e-mail set at REPRO (copy of message sent to you) or ACK (your posting is acknowledged), you won't know if the message appeared or not. To do this, send a message to the listserver at LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU (not the list!) as follows: SET INDEX-L ACK or SET INDEX-L REPRO ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:05:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: message posting If you haven't told the server to let you see your own messages, you won't be copied with the messages that you send. If the message you are referring to is about the insurance offered through ASI, I got it. I assume everyone else did, too. -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Amundson [SMTP:amundsn@PENN.COM] > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 8:54 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: message posting > > I tried to post a message on index-l recently, but it didn't > appear. Are > messages vetted for appropriateness? If so, what period of time can one > expect to elapse between posting and reappearance on my screen? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:31:04 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Note on the Board - and a point of personal information >From Christine Headley As an exiled British member of the Society of Indexers, I have been reading the posts regarding the Indexer and the ASI with great interest. There is always something to learn from how others conduct their affairs, and I rather think I would miss it if ASI members handled things through another route. I have no opinion on the matter. I do however believe that Index-L would lose if a veil were drawn and Index-Lers were banned from expressing their opinions. On another matter, I am sorry if my sudden claim to be American misled many people about twelve hours ago. I should know by now that sarcasm doesn't work broadcast (doesn't always work one-to-one, either). This Hong Kong ISP for some reason has a 'com' extension - many of them do here. I am not and have never been American... Best Christine Headley Hong Kong Hoping to transmogrify to a uk extension in about two months ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:18:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: October indexing conference in England Inadvertent deletion is a federal offense :-) TW > -----Original Message----- > From: Marlene London [SMTP:Profindex@WORLDNET.ATT.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 2:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: October indexing conference in England > > Having inadvertently deleted the e-mail notice on the indexing > conference > to take place in England in October, I'd be grateful if someone would > forward it to me. > > Marlene London > Profindex@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nickel, Joyce" Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers " .com" is used in Canada as well. -----Original Message----- From: J.A Binns [SMTP:binns@HANGLETON.U-NET.COM] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 3:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers Charlotte Skuster wrote: >Here is the country listing as of today: > > Country Subscribers > ------- ----------- > Argentina 1 > Australia 24 > Canada 51 > France 2 > Germany 2 > Great Britain 20 > Iceland 2 > Ireland 2 > Israel 2 > Italy 1 > Japan 1 > Mexico 1 > Netherlands 1 > New Zealand 5 > South Africa 3 > Spain 2 > Sweden 1 > Taiwan 1 > USA 771 > ??? 155 > > Total number of users subscribed to the list: 1048 > > Total number of countries represented: 20 > >Charlotte Skuster > > However, as I pointed out a while ago, and as Sue Lightfoot mentioned, this is not a reliable indicator of the snail mail address. If your e-mail address does not end in a specific indicator of your country of residence, then you are automatically listed under the USA. I imagine it depends on your server whether your address ends in .com or .uk (or the suffix appropriate for any particular country). Because my e-mail address ends in .com I am listed under the USA as are several other people who I know live in the UK. It is the American domination of the computer networks rather than membership of Index-L that shows up on the list. I have just done a check through the addresses of my regular UK-resident e-mail contacts, and this shows addresses ending in: .uk 11 .com 4 .org 3 .net 2 So on the Index-L list by country 9 out of 20 (45 per cent) would be listed under the USA, because they are not specifically UK. Some of them are my own family and I *know* they don't live in the USA. If you take this a step further (and mathematics never was my strong point), does this mean that the 277 subscribers not listed under the USA only represent 55 per cent of true non-USA residents? In other words, 504 subscribers are non-American, which leaves 544 Americans - ie. 52 per cent of the total rather than 75 per cent as claimed by Charlotte. Sorry, this is rather tongue in cheek, but I do feel quite strongly about being assumed to be American unless I happen to have an address that specifically states otherwise. And don't bother checking my calculations and telling me they are wrong! Margaret Binns ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:35:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen McKevitt Subject: Take me off list I don't know how I got on your list, but I suddenly started receiving a bunch of e-mails today. Please remove me from the list. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:26:07 -0600 Reply-To: kblack@itsnet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristen Black Subject: Need Unsubscribe Help Sorry to bother you all, but I need to unsubscribe from this list at one address and subscribe at another. Could someone please send me directions? Thanks! Kristen Black Freelance Editor, Writer, Indexer, and Book Reviewer kblack@exit109.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:40:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Note on the Board - and a point of personal information Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > > >From Christine Headley > > As an exiled British member of the Society of Indexers, I have been > reading the posts regarding the Indexer and the ASI with great > interest. There is always something to learn from how others conduct > their affairs, and I rather think I would miss it if ASI members handled > things through another route. > > I have no opinion on the matter. I do however believe that Index-L > would lose if a veil were drawn and Index-Lers were banned from > expressing their opinions. > > On another matter, I am sorry if my sudden claim to be American misled > many people about twelve hours ago. I should know by now that sarcasm > doesn't work broadcast (doesn't always work one-to-one, either). This > Hong Kong ISP for some reason has a 'com' extension - many of them do > here. I am not and have never been American... And of course not all American addresses end in .com! And not all .com addresses--as you point out--are american. Here's more info than you probably wanted to know (:-) about Internet domain-naming conventions and addressing. All info taken from "The Official Netscape Communicator 4 Book" published by Ventana: There are six standardized domain names currently in use, corresponding to types of organizations. These top-level domains are used regardless of the country where the organization resides. .com (commercial entity) .edu (educational institution) .gov (government agency or department) .mil (military organization) .net (network resource) .org (other type of organization, usual a not-for-profit Seven new top-level domains have been proposed (or perhaps already added--I'm not sure): .firm (business) .store (online store) .web (Web-related organization) .arts (cultural and entertainment organizations) .rec (organizations emphasizing recreational activities) .info (organizations that provide information) .nom (individuals) "In addition, Internet sites outside the United States are identified by a special two-letter, top-level domain name. [...] There is even a two-letter designation for the United States (you guessed it, .us), but it is rarely used since the six "organizational type" names are more descriptive." In other words, some organizations choose to add another two letters to the end of the domain names listed above; it is not automatic. -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 Note new email address ==> norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:11:37 -0400 Reply-To: norcross@ipass.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers J.A Binns wrote: > I don't understand why .net is not listed under USA, whereas .com, .edu and > .org are. Can someone enlighten me? Please see my post in the thread "Note on the Board - and a point of personal information." Hope it helps. -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 Note new email address ==> norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:20:40 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers [again] In-Reply-To: At 03:11 PM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >J.A Binns wrote: > >> I don't understand why .net is not listed under USA, whereas .com, .edu and >> .org are. Can someone enlighten me? > >Please see my post in the thread "Note on the Board - and a point of >personal information." Hope it helps. > >-- >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services >(919) 852-0042 >Note new email address ==> norcross@ipass.net > > Thanks Ann Yes it helps - to a certain extent. I still don't understand why .net (like you for instance) are listed as 'Country could not be determined for' on the list. And if, as you say: 'these top-level domains [ie. .com .edu .org etc.] are used regardless of the country where the organization resides' why are they all listed under USA? Anyway, I guess that is enough on this subject for now, it's not strictly indexing anyway! Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:32:55 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Personal e-mail address If anyone can please give me (off list) the email address of Chris Carr, CccJlc@????.???, I'd appreciate it very much. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:44:28 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers [again] J.A Binns wrote: > > And if, ... 'these top-level domains [ie. .com .edu .org etc.] are > used regardless of the country where the organization resides' why are they > all listed under USA? > > Anyway, I guess that is enough on this subject for now, it's not strictly > indexing anyway! > > Margaret > Aren't *we* being indexed according to our perceived nationality of origin? ;) Christine Headley Brit in Hong Kong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:52:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Index-L subscribers [again] J.A Binns wrote: > > At 03:11 PM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: > >J.A Binns wrote: > > > >> I don't understand why .net is not listed under USA, whereas .com, .edu and > >> .org are. Can someone enlighten me? > > > >Please see my post in the thread "Note on the Board - and a point of > >personal information." Hope it helps. > > > >-- > >Ann Norcross > Thanks Ann > > Yes it helps - to a certain extent. I still don't understand why .net (like > you for instance) are listed as 'Country could not be determined for' on > the list. > > And if, as you say: 'these top-level domains [ie. .com .edu .org etc.] are > used regardless of the country where the organization resides' why are they > all listed under USA? Good question. I have no idea who (or what code) is compiling a list of countries of origin for index-l. Maybe an algorithm needs to be changed somewhere, as you and others have said: if there's a country code, use it; and if not, report as unknown. Maybe it's just a SMOP (Simple Matter Of Programming) :-). And yes, the Internet is USA-centric. Even the book I was quoting from says that the .us domain is not often used. Nothing we can do about the Internet in general (from here on index-l anyway), but I suppose we could collect statistics differently in this little corner of the 'Net. Charlotte? Am I way out of line here? I think I missed the original question, and have barged in late to the conversation, spouting opinions and stray facts as if they were of interest. Oh well. Ann -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 Note new email address ==> norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:44:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: book on file transfer Here goes-- It's now time for me to really learn about file transfers, what works the best, what messes them up the most, and why! and how to avoid all those pitfalls. Any suggestions? Books are my favorite, but *understandable* web pages are welcome too! Thanks, Chris Carr cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:53:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen King Subject: Re: ASI's Directory PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO BE REMOVED FROM THIS EMAIL THREAD!! thank you ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:21:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen King Subject: Re: Take me off list <> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:24:47 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Unsubscribing from Index-L Send the following message, using the same name and email address that you subscribed with: SIGNOFF INDEX-L Send it to: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu No subject is necessary. You do not need to put your name after "index-l". ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:34:52 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Possible work from Hong Kong publisher >From Christine Headley Is anyone interested in indexing a 300-page book on Chinese communism? I don't know the deadline, but can find out. This publisher offers as flat fee of HK$5000 per book, which isn't much for a book of this length and likely complexity. They are however getting worried. I have just enough committed to see me through until I leave at the end of July and I simply can't take on another 300-pager. Anyone interested? Christine Headley Hong Kong ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:38:49 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Take me off list >From Christine Headley If you didnt' subscribe to Index-L, I somehow doubt unsubscribing, as suggested by LJM, will work. If you are still trying to disentangle yourself, I suggest you contact the listowner cskuster@LIBRARY.LIB.BINGHAMTON.EDU who will doubtless be able to help. Good luck! Christine Headley Hong Kong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:53:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judith Gibbs Subject: Renting laptops in Seattle I need to rent a laptop or notebook computer--a pentium 200 MHz or better with a CD reader--from a shop in the Seattle area for a week or two. Does anyone have any experience renting laptops in the Seattle area? Judi Gibbs jmgibbs@wolfenet.com Please note the "e" in wolfe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:33:26 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: ASI's Directory Karen King wrote: > > PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO BE REMOVED FROM THIS EMAIL [list]!! > > thank you This is the third time I've sent this message today, so I decided to send it to the whole list, just in case there are any others out there who are desperate to unsubscribe. :) > Although the list owner may see your request and be able to > accommodate you, I believe the fastest solution is this: > > 1. Log in to the same account as the one in which you're receiving > the unwanted messages. > > 2. Create an e-mail message with only this in the message body: > > SIGNOFF INDEX-L > > NOTE: Make sure there's nothing else in the message body, and > make sure your mail software doesn't automatically a signature. > > 3. Send the message to this address: > > LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET > > 4. If you get a message asking you to confirm your cancellation, > just follow the instructions. > > You may get a few more messages from the list before your cancellation > is processed, but that should do the trick. --David ======================= David M. Brown Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com www.brown-inc.com ======================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:09:11 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Moira Greenhalgh Subject: YMMV Your mileage may vary? And I always thought it was *you make me vomit* Moira moiracg@dialin.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:11:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: SI Conference 1998 - addendum Just to clarify matters: the rate for Society of Indexers' members mentioned in the booking form for the Tynemouth conference applies also to members of all societies affiliated to SI - ASI, AusSI, IASC/SCAD and the Southern African Society of Indexers. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:43:33 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Re: Personal e-mail address Chris Carr is @aol.com -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:44:43 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Re: Personal e-mail address Sorry about posting to the list on that address. I don't usually do that. -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:03:29 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: ASI insurance Lori Lathrop was kind enough to inform me that 40% of ASI members make enough money to qualify for the Mutual of Omaha insurance services listed on the ASI webpage. Shouldn't we be looking for an insurance connection that will serve thos e of us who can't get affordable insurance by ourselves? Freelance indexers who make over $36,000 per year are more likely to be able to afford individual policies; indexers who are employed by publishers and other corporations, at salaries at or above $36,000, are fairly likely to have an insurance connection through their employer. Mutual of Omaha is practicing an interesting form of redlining here: the y won't sell their product to anyone who makes less than $36,000 per year! Fascinating. By agreeing to Mutual of Omaha's terms, however, ASI is doing the redlining. Our effort, as a group (ASI), should be to seek insurance for those of us who most need it, not those who need it least. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:06:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Schwilk Subject: Re: ASI insurance I agree completely. This is outrageous. Has anyone on the list ever heard of a minimum income requirement for an insurance policy? Does Mutual of Omaha require a copy of your latest 1040? And as for a minimum of 1 year as a full-time freelancer, what about those who have indexed as a sideline for several years and are contemplating doing it as a full-time occupation? What is the likelihood of earning that amount the first year out? Not bloody likely at all. I think ASI should do some serious shopping around before committing the membership to, in effect, complicity in this redlining. Thanks for this opportunity to vent. Mike ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: ASI insurance Author: at ~Internet_Mail Date: 6/19/98 2:03 PM Lori Lathrop was kind enough to inform me that 40% of ASI members make enough money to qualify for the Mutual of Omaha insurance services listed on the ASI webpage. Shouldn't we be looking for an insurance connection that will serve those of us who can't get affordable insurance by ourselves? Freelance indexers who make over $36,000 per year are more likely to be able to afford individual policies; indexers who are employed by publishers and other corporations, at salaries at or above $36,000, are fairly likely to have an insurance connection through their employer. Mutual of Omaha is practicing an interesting form of redlining here: they won't sell their product to anyone who makes less than $36,000 per year! Fascinating. By agreeing to Mutual of Omaha's terms, however, ASI is doing the redlining. Our effort, as a group (ASI), should be to seek insurance for those of us who most need it, not those who need it least. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:18:10 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: ASI insurance David is concerned that Mutual of Omaha is offering disability insurance only to those making $36,000 per year or more. I want to assure all that disability insurance is VERY hard to get for freelancers, and Mutual of Omaha is one of the few companies that offer it. ASI has been looking to offer disability insurance for a long time, and will continue to seek better coverage, I am sure. However, in the interim, this is the best they can do. I am wondering if people who make less than $36,000 might be able to pursue a state disability policy for individuals. California has one, and it is affordable, although during most of the first half of my career (before computers and before ASI membership) I wasn't earning enough to afford even that. Call your state disability office, and ask. It can't hurt. Meanwhile, I urge all of you to become active in ASI, go to meetings (even if it means several hours of travel--it was always worth it for me), run for chapter office, help build your chapter.... There is no better way to build up your business to the point where you have trouble juggling all those jobs with the time you need to spend on ASI business. You will soon be making that $36,000 per year. Remember, too, that you are a professional, and charge accordingly. And finally, remember that is GROSS income, from which you deduct thousands of dollars of legitimate business expenses, including travel to those meetings, to the bank to deposit your checks, to the office supply store, etc. Good luck! Elinor Lindheimer Past President, ASI elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:55:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: E-mail to Christine Headley Hi- Sorry to put this out on the list. Christine, I can't reach you; my server won't accept your address -- I've tried numerous times. I know you're there! Can you please try to reach me from your end? Thx and, my apologies again to the list, Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: rumpergj@jmu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rumper, Gail J" Subject: Seeking Assistance Hi, I am new to this, so please bear with me. If anyone out there can help me I will be ecstatic with gratitude. I have recently become fascinated and intrigued by what I have learned so far about indexing. I have never done an index before nor have I taken any courses, but I have done a lot of preliminary research and studying on my own. I am currently employed and am a student majoring in English at college (I will graduate May 1999). I have a good friend here who is an English professor, head of the Honors Program, and who owns and operates an art gallery specializing in works by local artists. During a conversation with her today, I discussed my interests and aspirations. As it happens, she has just completed a book about American poets, and after some discussion, she offered me the job of indexing it for her! I do not know the status of the book in terms publication, but she did say that she would like the index done in about two months. Also, she stated that if I can do a good job of this, she will recommend me further. She suggested that there be no payment involved since this will be a learning process for me and therefore will benefit both of us. (Any opinions about that? I am willing to do this without pay.) As you may gather, I am beyond excited about this opportunity. I want very much to learn all I can and to do the very best job I can but I am at a bit of a loss as to how to get started. As I said, I have some general knowledge but my hope is that someone can provide me with some information and/or advice as to what to do next or if I am even being realistic in thinking that I can do this. Any assistance anyone can provide this novice (and slightly glassy-eyed) indexer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- Gail rumpergj@jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:39:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: ASI insurance At 10:18 AM 6/19/1998 -0700, Elinor Lindheimer wrote: >David is concerned that Mutual of Omaha is offering disability insurance >only to those making $36,000 per year or more. I want to assure all that >disability insurance is VERY hard to get for freelancers, and Mutual of >Omaha is one of the few companies that offer it. ASI has been looking to >offer disability insurance for a long time, and will continue to seek better >coverage, I am sure. However, in the interim, this is the best they can do. Elinor, I'm glad you cleared this up...I had misread (or misunderstood) the original message in this thread and thought that it was ALL the insurance that was limited only to people making $36,000 or more per year. I'm glad to hear it's just disability! I'm no actuary, but I'm curious as to why this income limitation should exist in what looks like the opposite direction from where it might otherwise be placed. You'd think an insurance company would be eager to take on LOW-earning disability insurance clients, because it would have to pay out LESS to them. Instead, it appears that Mutual of Omaha only wants the "wealthier" indexers involved...which means, I assume, that they will probably buy bigger policies and the company would have to pay out more. Of course, those policies would also be priced higher, so maybe that's the reason. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:50:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip Montgomery Subject: Re: ASI insurance ---Sonsie wrote: The lower the income the more likely chance of a claim, the higher the less. . . _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:47:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Seeking Assistance On 6/19/98 15:24 Rumper, Gail J wrote (in part): >She suggested that there be no >payment involved since this will be a learning process for >me and therefore will benefit both of us. (Any opinions >about that? I am willing to do this without pay.) This may seem harsh, but I feel that part of the "learning experience" will be that others will sometimes take advantage of you. If I were in a similar position I think I would bargain for some kind of monetary compensation, perhaps a small flat fee. At the absolute minimum you should receive a copy of the finished book. Another minor point (with the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer) is that when you finish the index you will own the copyright and that the transfer of the index copyright is customarily done in exchange for money. Best of luck in your decision and your indexing! Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:59:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Seeking Assistance At 03:47 PM 6/19/1998 -0500, Craig Brown wrote: >This may seem harsh, but I feel that part of the "learning experience" >will be that others will sometimes take advantage of you. > >If I were in a similar position I think I would bargain for some kind of >monetary compensation, perhaps a small flat fee. At the absolute minimum >you should receive a copy of the finished book. I agree. The only time I would do work for free is for a charity or volunteer organization. I've recommended to many beginners that they take on the indexing of their group's cookbook or other publication...but I wouldn't make the same suggestion when it involves giving free services to someone who is going to make a profit on his/her book. If the author prepared his or her own index and asked Gail to type the final draft as a "learning experience," she'd expect to be paid at least something for her time and clerical work...even if, in the process of the typing, she was able to learn more about how an index is constructed. I would definitely suggest negotiating a small payment (even as low as $100) AND a copy of the finished book. Future recommendations for work are all well and good...if they materialize. And many of us find most of our work comes directly from publishers to begin with. (A further note, Gail...if you do this job, whether for pay or not, make a point of writing or calling the publisher and telling them that you did the work--if the author doesn't do this. If they're pleased with the job, say that you'd like to be considered for other freelance indexing assignments.) Good luck... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:55:14 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Seeking Assistance I agree with the other responses to your situation. Learning experience or not, you are entitled to some compensation for your work. I have several children in college who have worked as interns and they are all handsomely paid during their "learning experiences." There is no reason that the indexing profession should be any different. I would also urge you to obtain, either directly or through the author, the specific instructions on the indexing format they require. It's important to make both the author and the editor happy with your project and that's not necessarily the same thing. The author, concerned with index content, may not be very concerned with the indexing format. The editor will be wild if they have to "fix" the index format and not be inclined to give you more work. Formats can vary among publishers and you want to make sure that the index you turn in will conform to the publisher's specifications. Good luck with your project, Sylvia Coates Rumper, Gail J wrote: > Hi, > > I am new to this, so please bear with me. If anyone out > there can help me I will be ecstatic with gratitude. > > I have recently become fascinated and intrigued by what I > have learned so far about indexing. I have never done an > index before nor have I taken any courses, but I have done > a lot of preliminary research and studying on my own. > > I am currently employed and am a student majoring in > English at college (I will graduate May 1999). I have a > good friend here who is an English professor, head of the > Honors Program, and who owns and operates an art gallery > specializing in works by local artists. During a > conversation with her today, I discussed my interests and > aspirations. As it happens, she has just completed a book > about American poets, and after some discussion, she > offered me the job of indexing it for her! I do not know > the status of the book in terms publication, but she did > say that she would like the index done in about two months. > Also, she stated that if I can do a good job of this, she > will recommend me further. She suggested that there be no > payment involved since this will be a learning process for > me and therefore will benefit both of us. (Any opinions > about that? I am willing to do this without pay.) > > As you may gather, I am beyond excited about this > opportunity. I want very much to learn all I can and to do > the very best job I can but I am at a bit of a loss as to > how to get started. As I said, I have some general > knowledge but my hope is that someone can provide me with > some information and/or advice as to what to do next or if > I am even being realistic in thinking that I can do this. > > Any assistance anyone can provide this novice (and slightly > glassy-eyed) indexer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > > -- > Gail > > rumpergj@jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Seeking Assistance On 6/19/98 15:24 Rumper, Gail J wrote (in part): >As you may gather, I am beyond excited about this >opportunity. I want very much to learn all I can and to do >the very best job I can but I am at a bit of a loss as to >how to get started. As I said, I have some general >knowledge but my hope is that someone can provide me with >some information and/or advice as to what to do next or if >I am even being realistic in thinking that I can do this. This is the part of your query that you probably consider more pressing. You said that you have done some preliminary research and study. If you have not already done so I recommend absorbing the most readily available text on the subject of indexing, _Indexing Books_ by Nancy Mulvany (ISBN 0-226-55014-1) and carefully reading chapter 17 of _The Chicago Manual of Style_ (ISBN 0-226-10389-7). Study indexes of books similar to the one your advisor has written. You should soon be able to discern the excellent from the good from the mediocre. When it comes to the mechanics of creating the index I would suggest the index card approach as described in detail in CMS. Many beginners use their first job to pay for indexing software, but since that is in question in your case, and since you have a generous time allowance, I think the classic approach would be satisfactory. As you progress on the index ask questions here. You will find answers, sometimes conflicting, but answers nonetheless. Again, best of luck. Craig Brown ========================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing (314)352-9094 www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:11:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: Seeking Assistance In-Reply-To: <199806191925.PAA12297@camel5.mindspring.com> Gail, you need to be paid, with money and with a copy of the published book. That's exactly how I learned to index. A good friend, who is an anthropology professor, asked me to index a book for which she was the lead editor. She knew I'd never done it before, but she also knew I'm meticulous, detail-oriented, and had majored in anthropology. Her book was a anthropology anthology, with three subject areas, another academic editor, and twelve authors. Carol didn't know much about religion and the other editor didn't know much about land tenure and kinship ritual. All of the authors used different terms for the same things. I went out and bought _Indexing, The Art of_, a set of alphabetic dividers, fountain pen ink, a new ribbon for my typewriter, and a banker's box, bummed a pile of used catalogue cards from the library, and dived right in. Carol gave me a long two months with the page proofs, so I was able to read the book a couple of times before I started extracting entries. I sent my husband and the kids to the beach the weekend before deadline. It was a real education in indexing. Carol gave me a great reference by thanking me in the preface and sending me a copy of a review that panned the book, but concluded with "good index." BUT, she also paid me, and more than a token amount, too (although it would sound token now), and made sure I got a copy of the book when she did. And we're still friends. Learning this way is not like learning from coursework. It's like learning on the job. If you take a course, you get feedback from the instructor, but the lessons are not a published product. When you learn by doing, you provide your own instruction and feedback. It's a big responsibility, there is a product, and you deserve to be paid. If you do decide to do it, do your research and pay special attention to the preliminary steps. Read the book first. Find out who will use the index. Look at the index to her last book. Test yourself on something, to see if you enjoy it. Indexing is dissection and reconstruction, and not every doctor is a surgeon. Cheers and good luck, Deborah ======== At 03:24 PM 19-06-98 -0500, Gail wrote: > I am currently employed and am a student majoring in >English at college (I will graduate May 1999). I have a >good friend here who is an English professor, head of the >Honors Program, and who owns and operates an art gallery >specializing in works by local artists. During a >conversation with her today, I discussed my interests and >aspirations. As it happens, she has just completed a book >about American poets, and after some discussion, she >offered me the job of indexing it for her! I do not know >the status of the book in terms publication, but she did >say that she would like the index done in about two months. >Also, she stated that if I can do a good job of this, she >will recommend me further. She suggested that there be no >payment involved since this will be a learning process for >me and therefore will benefit both of us. (Any opinions >about that? I am willing to do this without pay.) ======= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:34:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Portuguese--urgent Hi all you language experts! Does anyone know whether the word "A" in Portuguese is an article? This encyclopedia is international enough that I'm excluding all articles from alphabetization; I have three titles beginning with A so I suspect I should exclude it. Index due tomorrow, so quick responses very much appreciated! Thanks! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Portuguese--urgent Yes, it is. For verification, see Wellisch's table of foreign language articles, in Indexing A to Z (2nd ed.), p. 240t. "A" is the feminine definite article (plural is "as"); "o" is the masculine definite article (plural is "os"). Similar to Spanish la, lo, las, los... At 11:34 PM 6/19/98 EDT, DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: >Hi all you language experts! Does anyone know whether the word "A" in >Portuguese is an article? This encyclopedia is international enough that I'm >excluding all articles from alphabetization; I have three titles beginning >with A so I suspect I should exclude it. Index due tomorrow, so quick >responses very much appreciated! >Thanks! > >Do Mi > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:55:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Van Huss Subject: Assistance I have recently run across a similar situation with a professor who does not want to pay me either for doing an index. A few weeks ago, I asked one of my professors to proof read an inquiry letter which I was going to mail out to publishers. As it turned out he has just finished writing a book on classroom management, which happens to be in my field. He asked me if I could index the book. Having just about finished the indexing course through USDA, I was very excited about this opportunity. I told the professor that the average rate for a beginner indexer would be about 3.00 per page. The book is 600 pages long. He was in shock. The professor has written several books and said normally he just has the publisher take care of the indexing part. He had no idea what an indexer charged. (so he claims) Well, not wanting to loose my first indexing job, I told him that I really wanted the experience and that I would go as low as $1.75 per page. Still, the professor thought that was too much money. His comment was that he had already paid someone to type the manuscript at $2.50 per page. He said he would keep me in mind, but I got the impression he was being cheap and was going to go ahead and let the publisher hire someone. My point here is that professors who have written many books, I think, take advantage of their students. They know exactly what it's going to cost them for an index. Whether they pay for one outright, or through their royalties. Like you, I hate to let this opportunity go, but there is a lot of work involed in preparing an index. We should be paid fairly for our services even if we are beginners. For a beginner, doing an index is much, much, more time consuming than for an experienced indexer. What I think I am going to do is give my resume to my professor. Ask the professor to recommend me to his publisher for this job and see what happens from there. This way he's not paying me directly, but through his royalties. Pam Van Huss ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:47:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Assistance ---------- > > >I stopped indexing for three years when I went back to school. In my final semester a professor friend who was writing a book asked me to index it. Because I had been out of the business for 3 years and was a bit rusty I agreed to do the book for $2.00 per page. This was in 1993. He didn't ask me to do the work for free; then again, I already had indexing experience. I did this index without the aid of indexing software. I estimate the indexing took me 48 hours extra due to software problems. If you find you like indexing, don't do too many indexes without the aid of indexing software; it will pay for itself soon! Paula C. Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:38:08 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: Assistance Pamela Van Huss wrote: > > I have recently run across a similar situation with a professor who does not > want to pay > me either for doing an index. A few weeks ago, I asked one of my professors to > proof > read an inquiry letter which I was going to mail out to publishers. As it > turned out he > has just finished writing a book on classroom management, which happens to be in > my > field. He asked me if I could index the book. Having just about finished the > indexing > course through USDA, I was very excited about this opportunity. I told the > professor > that the average rate for a beginner indexer would be about 3.00 per page. The > book is > 600 pages long. He was in shock. The professor has written several books and > said > normally he just has the publisher take care of the indexing part. He had no > idea what > an indexer charged. (so he claims) Well, not wanting to loose my first > indexing job, I > told him that I really wanted the experience and that I would go as low as $1.75 > per > page. Still, the professor thought that was too much money. His comment was > that he > had already paid someone to type the manuscript at $2.50 per page. (friendly snip) You should have pointed out to him that you certainly could not take less than $3.00/page for indexing his book when he was willing to pay $2.50/page for someone to type his book. Indexing is an intellectually demanding process, whereas typing is mostly automatic, once you have achieved a certain level of expertise. There's an old saying: "Begin as you mean to go on." If you act hesitant or apologetic for charging for your services, people will take advantage of you. Accepting a sub-standard fee at the beginning only means that you will have to renegotiate your fees in six months or a year, if you want to be paid fairly for your services. (Back to lurk mode :-) Laura ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:14:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Deason Subject: Indexing fees I'm still learning about indexing while trying to decide whether or not to take the USDA indexing course. I get the idea from reading your posts that $3.00 per page is average for an indexing job. If, for example, a book is 600 pages long, what would you estimate to be the length of time needed for an indexing job? Do most of you work on multiple books at the same time? How far in advance do you contract your work? In your opinion, is it reasonable for someone to start out freelancing on a part-time basis and actually find work? I am interested in doing this part- time and continuing to work at another job. Well, thanks to everyone who is answering my questions! Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:45:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Festschrift Is anyone familiar with the German term "Festschrift" as in the footnote: 14. H. -J. Hermisson, "Der Lohn des Knechts", in _Die Botschaft und die Boten_, Festschrift H. W. Wolff, ed. J. Jeremias and L. Perlitt (Neukirchen-Vluyn: Neukircherverlag, 1981), 286. I've looked it up, but "a collection of sentences" is no help... Martha Back Words ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:19:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Festschrift A Festschrift is a collection of writings gathered together to honor a scholar. It is a very common practice to present Festschrifts to scholars in the history profession, for example. Often the articles or chapters are written by the scholar's former students, who are also practicing scholars. At 12:45 PM 6/20/98 -0700, Martha Osgood wrote: >Is anyone familiar with the German term "Festschrift" as in the footnote: > > 14. H. -J. Hermisson, "Der Lohn des Knechts", in > _Die Botschaft und die Boten_, Festschrift H. W. Wolff, > ed. J. Jeremias and L. Perlitt (Neukirchen-Vluyn: > Neukircherverlag, 1981), 286. > >I've looked it up, but "a collection of sentences" is no help... > >Martha >Back Words > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:31:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura R Rustin Subject: Re: Festschrift In-Reply-To: <199806201945.OAA15154@freebird.ghofn.org> This term is used for a volume usually published in someone's honor. As an example, many of the professional colleagues of an individual will join together and each submit a chapter/article for a festschrift to be published in honor of the 75th birthday of a noted scholar in a field. I can't access both Index-l and my library's catalog at the same time, but I think that 'fesetschrift' is even often used as a subject catalog term. laura Rustin Houston, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura R Rustin Subject: Re: Festschrift In-Reply-To: <199806201945.OAA15154@freebird.ghofn.org> To finish my reply........ Hermisson is the author of the chapter in the festschrift honoring Wolff. The festschrift was edited by Jeremais and Perlitt. laura ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:40:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Festschrift In-Reply-To: <199806202020.QAA143334@rs8.loc.gov> On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > A Festschrift is a collection of writings gathered together to honor a > scholar. It is a very common practice to present Festschrifts to scholars in > the history profession, for example. Often the articles or chapters are > written by the scholar's former students, who are also practicing scholars. Or as my favorite French professor, the late Dr. Nicolich, used to maintain: it was a way to get articles published which had been rejected by everyone else! :) Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:19:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Indexing fees/etc In-Reply-To: <199806201916.MAA23459@smtp1.teleport.com> Carol asks > If, for example, a book is 600 >pages long, what would you estimate to be the length of time needed >for >an indexing job? Other considerations include type of book, subject matter, how well written the book is, how much you know about the topic already. I like having three weeks to do 350 pages of scholarly stuff. I immediately and without regret turned down 300 pages of "breezy" (HA!) money management because they wanted it done in 3 days. >Do most of you work on multiple books at the same time? I don't (or rather, haven't had the opportunity) do more than one book at a time, although if I had a book or journal without a deadline, or one with a distant deadline, I might do another book in the middle. >How far in advance do you contract your work? My work seems to come in right when I'm ready for it. Don't ask me how. I have seldom been given more than a week's lead time. >In your opinion, is it reasonable for someone to start out freelancing >on >a part-time basis and actually find work? One of the ways I decided I liked indexing was I found a small-ish book in the field in which I wanted to index. I taped the index shut, then actually indexed the book myself. Then I compared the existing index with my own and decided which entries were better and why. Some of my entries seemed better than the book's, and I understood more and more about indexing from those that weren't. The other thing I might suggest is something I did accidentally. I analysed what I wanted my work DAY to look like (ala What Color is Your Parachute). I did not look at WHAT I might want to do; rather I looked at the overall picture. For example (don't laugh): I knew I wanted anyplace I worked to be air conditioned. I'm often insommniac, so I saw myself doing whatever I would do in the middle of the night sometimes - then sleeping when I finally got tired without having to be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed by 8am. And I hated answering a busy phone for other people in previous (real) jobs, so I envisioned a quiet workplace with few interruptions. The "public" is completely crazy out there, and I knew I did not want to deal with them. I loved being a student (in a previous incarnation) so I wondered what kind of research I could do. I had written all this out before I ever considered or even knew about indexing, so when it crossed my path, I was, in a sense, ready for it. Voila. Be aware, too, of some of the (for some people) downsides: repetition, detail, deadlines, constant and agonizing decisions about how to word something, bidding too low then having to produce anyway, waiting for your check. Good luck, Carol. Martha ___________________________________ Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing index@teleport.com www.teleport.com/~index ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:00:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Indexing fees In-Reply-To: <199806201916.PAA20649@mail3.bellsouth.net> Carol Deason wrote: > I'm still learning about indexing while trying to decide whether or not to > take the USDA indexing course. I get the idea from reading your > posts that > $3.00 per page is average for an indexing job. If, for example, > a book is 600 > pages long, what would you estimate to be the length of time needed for an > indexing job? Do most of you work on multiple books at the same > time? How > far in advance do you contract your work? In your opinion, is it > reasonable > for someone to start out freelancing on a > part-time basis and actually find work? I am interested in doing > this part- > time and continuing to work at another job. > Well, thanks to everyone who is answering my questions! Carol Seriously, the best answer has to be "It depends." I do a lot of university press and other academic books, mostly in the social sciences and humanities, but not many of them are as long as 600pp. But a 300-page book on Wittgenstein (which I did recently) is NOT the equivalent of a 300-page history of the Napa Valley wine industry (which I also did recently). It's not only the number of locators you pull from the average page, it's the density of the material itself, which determines just how quickly and easily you can slurp it up. The Napa Valley took me about 5 days (not 8-hour days, either); Ludwig was more like three intense weeks. Having said that, I nevertheless tend to charge by the indexable page, simply because it allows the editor (or, sometimes, the author) to get an immediate estimate of the total cost. And I've been doing this long enough that I'm seldom surprised anymore when I actually get the indexer's pages. I expect most indexers do one book at a time -- given a choice, they certainly would. that's especially true for academic work; there's a tendency to really immerse yourself in the book and shifting gears to something very different is not easy. Besides, I don't know that you'd gain anything. It would take each of two books twice as long (or maybe longer) to get finished if you tried to switch back and forth. Better to do one, get it in the mail, and then tackle the other one. The trick is to get the books in at the right pace, so there's seldom too large a blank spot on your calendar. (...and if anyone has a sure-fire solution to THAT one, lemme know!) Ideally, I'll be able to schedule more than one book at a time with a given editor while we're on the phone together. I have one regular client in particular whose good about that, since she knows she's sort of in competition for my time. She usually can't set an exact date when the next-book-after will be ready to send me, but she can narrow it down to a window less than a week long. (I hope she stays satisfied with my work for a long, long time....) As far as freelancing part-time,... that's usually the only realistic way to approach it. I was a librarian for 30 years (retired earlier this year), and for the past 15 years I did indexing strictly part-time. I'm not quite full-time now, since I want to at least *pretend* that I'm retired, but I let my regulars know that I was going to be more available and I'm getting a lot more work (per month, or whatever) than I ever have. Again, there's now way to plan that and you certainly can't COUNT on it: You just have to start in with whatever jobs you can get and build up a reputation and a clientele. My first several years, I was doing only two or three or four books a year.... The other possibility, if your interests run to it, is to not limit yourself to indexing. I've always done copyediting, too, and the past five or six years I've also been doing more and more writing (business reports, brochures, a little ghosting -- whatever they'll pay me for). I prefer a little variety, but many of my colleagues don't. I never took the USDA course, but I recommend it. It's a little different for librarians, I think, and I'm also pretty much an autodidact, but I've often thought I did it all the hard way by NOT taking the course. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:20:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: Indexing fees Mike Smith wrote: > I expect most indexers do one book at a time -- given a choice, they > certainly would. that's especially true for academic work; there's a > tendency to really immerse yourself in the book and shifting gears to > something very different is not easy. Besides, I don't know that you'd gain > anything. It would take each of two books twice as long (or maybe longer) to > get finished if you tried to switch back and forth. Better to do one, get it > in the mail, and then tackle the other one. I think this depends on your individual work style. I average 5-6 completed indexes per month and almost always have more than one underway at the same time. I like being able to switch between different topics and types of books when I'm feeling burnt out with one book. > The trick is to get the books in at the right pace, so there's seldom too > large a blank spot on your calendar. (...and if anyone has a sure-fire > solution to THAT one, lemme know!) Wish I did - scheduling, and changes to the schedule, is one of my biggest challenges. But having multiple projects here helps me be more flexible when last-minute changes happen. YMMV of course (and I mean 'your mileage may vary', not the other ;-) ) And as for Carol's original question about fees: ASI did a survey last year but I can't find my copy of the results right now. But as I recall, the majority of the answers to the per-page rate question clustered between $2 and $3/page. But different types of books call for different per-page rates, so again, it depends. And some publishers pay by the hour or by the entry. One more small point when dealing with authors directly: In my experience, they tend to give me a higher estimate than the actual number of pages turns out to be. This may be because they've been dealing with a double-spaced manuscript and also counting the page of the bibliography and endnotes (which might or might not be indexable). I always estimate my expected income (for myself) based on a lower number of pages than they tell me before the proofs are ready. Hope this helps, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:44:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Indexing fees I'm a full-time librarian and have been moonlighting as a medical indexer for about seven years. It is indeed possible to do both, as long as you can function on a minimal amount of sleep and accept that vacations and holidays from your "day" job are prime indexing time for moonlighters. I generally index 15-20 hours on a weekend, plus whatever additional hours are needed evenings to finish the job on schedule. My ballpark as a moonlighter is that I can index 150-200 pages a week. So I would tell a client that I need 3 weeks minimum (and would try to finagle 4) for a 600 page book. I know full-timers can do a much shorter turnaround; but any less is just not realistic for the type of materials I index. I don't deliberately double-book projects; but it sometimes happens that pages do slip and you end up juggling more than one at a time. I also usually have a journal index or two in progress and squeeze books in between the arrival of journal issues. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA In a message dated 98-06-20 15:27:33 EDT, you write: > If, for example, a book is 600 > pages long, what would you estimate to be the length of time needed for an > indexing job? Do most of you work on multiple books at the same time? How > far in advance do you contract your work? In your opinion, is it reasonable > for someone to start out freelancing on a > part-time basis and actually find work? I am interested in doing this part- > time and continuing to work at another job. > Well, thanks to everyone who is answering my questions! Carol ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:04:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Seeking Assistance and setting fees Gail, The advice you received on Index-L is all very good. In setting fees, being "new" is not appropriate criteria. If you produce a quality index, you should get a decent fee. New indexers take longer to produce a qualtiy index, but you are not being paid by the hour. I have to give credit to Lynn Moncrief for that opinion. She posted it last time the topic came up. Doing a free index for a non-profit organization is reasonable. I have done two. That's how I got started. I wouldn't feel bad about giving this author a discount, as it is a gamble that your index might not be good. You don't yet have a sample index to show your competence. If the publisher doesn't like your work, they may have to pay big bucks to get another indexer at the last minute. If you do take the job, don't feel shy about asking for help on Index-L. I wouldn't give discounts often. It sends a message that indexing is an unskilled profession. It is not obvious to most people how much intelligence and skill is actually involved. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:04:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing fees and working part-time In a message dated 98-06-20 15:27:14 EDT, you write: << In your opinion, is it reasonable for someone to start out freelancing on a part-time basis and actually find work? I am interested in doing this part- time and continuing to work at another job. >> Carol, That approach is not only possible, but probably very wise. Indexers often work a 40 hour job and index on the side. Many full-time indexers say it takes about a year to build up your business to the point where your income is acceptable. What is acceptable varies widely, of course! I began indexing while having the "perfect" part-time job. I could work between 3 and 20 hours per week, and most weeks I could decide how many hours I wanted. When I had an index to do, I worked 3 hours at the hospital. If not, I worked 20. I quit that job last year. Many indexers derive their incomes from a variety of skills. I just edited a book and I do a bit of programming. I am moving to a farm soon and may have a very, very small income from livestock. (A recent magazine article stated that most small farmers actually lose money.) You will probably get quite a few replys from indexers with interesting stories of their other income sources. Good luck to you, Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:14:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing fees and working part-time Carol, I went back to indexing after being away from it for years. I worked part- time for 4 years, with an increasing workload, before I gave up my day job. I couldn't give up that full-time income until I had to. I lasted 4 years at moonlighting; the last year I was working day and night to exhaustion. When I had to turn away work again and again due to my inability to keep up that type of schedule, I realized I had arrived at the crossover point. With fear and trepidation I quit my full-time job, and have been full-time freelance for 4 years now. Best move I ever made. My business has continued to grow, and I'm always busy. It is very do-able to index as a part-timer. You may have to say "no" more often than you like to keep it at part time, but it is all under your control. And that's what being your own boss is all about. It's *your* business. You set the time, the price, etc. The freedom is wonderful, despite the long work hours. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 21:33:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: book on file transfer Chris [and others], From your message I gather that FTP is _not_ your only interest, and so assume that XMODEM, KERMIT and all the others are pertinent. Yes, books are nice, as well as superior. I find, however, that the only references in my otherwise fairly good computer library are a bit old, published in 1993. "Introduction to PC Communications", published by QUE, might be a good bet; a quick glance at the index shows a troubleshooting section, which might address your question about reliability. Other books that I have from QUE seem to have been updated regularly so a later edition is probably available. "The Modem Coach", by New Riders Publishing, has only six or so pages that cover transmission protocols, but they _are_ informative. I am fairly certain that one of the "Dummies" series books will cover this subject. You might try as well amazon.com or Barnes & Noble; B&N's local stores -- in the SF Bay Area -- have finally come up to speed and carry a large number of computer-related books. My file transfer experience is currently limited to CompuServe -- using the DOS version, which I prefer -- and the Internet, using Netscape Navigator. A few pointers follow: 1. Speed of transfer is primarily based on your modem's "base" speed. If you connect your 56K system to a library using only a 9600 baud modem, you will be limited to 9600 baud. Most modern systems will handshake -- talk to each other -- to optimize the transmission speed. I THINK this function is partly included in the protocol as well. 2. If you download a ZIP file and it appears corrupted when unzipping it, sometimes running PKZIPFIX will repair it. Probably not. Go back out there and get a new copy, perhaps from a different source; remember that glitches occur both at the sending and receving ends, AS WELL AS all points between, which may include landlines, microwave links, and satellite links. 3. I get a lot of error messages when using Netscape: frequently hitting the button will fix a problem, including 404 NOT FOUND, ENTRY CONTAINS NO DATA, and others. This sometimes works even when the status bar is saying "Connected. Waiting for reply...". 4. I had to have my phone line replaced recently since it was UNUSABLE for data, I therefore have some recent experience with NOISE. Even though some of the transmission protocols will correct for a lot of data loss or errors, they have limitations. In my case the crap on the line became so intrusive that my ISP's server would bail out and disconnect, leaving the message "C/S ERRORS EXCEED LIMIT". If you're using Navigator, noise will manifest itself in the status bar at the screen's lower edge. The information shown changes rapidly, but every now and then a "rate" will appear: "...AT 3.1K/MIN" or some such. When I start seeing "650 BYTES" or even "126 BYTES" I know someone's in trouble. Line noise will corrupt data files, lose HTML icons and page data, and really garble images. The phone company is legally responsible -- I think -- for providing noise-free service, as long as noise is being generated in THEIR side of the system. You can check for noise, at least, with a few simple tests. First, pick up a telephone and punch any number to cancel the dial tone. Listen carefully for a minute for clicks, pops, fizzing, skutching, whatever. If indeed you DO hear something untoward, take the same phone, if you can, find the "protector block" or the box where the phone company's cable enters the building; in modern installations there is a "jack" or connector where you may disconnect the customer's wiring and substitute a test set -- your phone -- in its place. If you STILL hear noise at this point, then I suggest trying the same test using a different telephone. All this folderall is to determine that the problem lies NOT within your equipment but in theirs, since the phone company will charge for making the same tests. My apologies to everybody for gabbling at such length, but I get enthusiastic about troubleshooting, believe it or not. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:42:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing fees Carol Deason wrote: << I get the idea from reading your posts that $3.00 per page is average for an indexing job.>> In my fields (social sciences/humanities textbooks and scholarly books) it's somewhat low but not outrageous. Remember that different fields pay different amounts (and that some publishers pay much less--but their indexers don't earn enough to live on!). << If, for example, a book is 600 pages long, what would you estimate to be the length of time needed for an indexing job? Do most of you work on multiple books at the same time?>> As Mike said, it depends on what kind of book it is! I usually have four or five deadlines per month, staggered when I manage to do that. I usually get two to three weeks to index a book; textbooks often flow pages for a month or so, and the index is due a week or two after the final pages arrive. I earn a decent amount, but I wouldn't be able to do that if I just indexed one book at a time. Sometimes I switch between jobs to give myself a break (as Mary said); sometimes I buckle down and finish one all at once. When you're just starting you won't be able to do this much at once--you'll speed up a lot as you learn to index and when you start using freestanding software to its capacity. << How far in advance do you contract your work? >> I'm usually booked two or three months in advance; I also get lots of calls from editors needing a job done right now. However, everything tends to slip. Once you have four or five steady clients you can fill in gaps as you need to, so it all works out in the end (sometimes by the skin of the teeth...). <> Yes, I would say this is the best way to do it. You have to be able to do a lot of hours of indexing at once when you have a deadline, though, so either a flexible part-time job or not too many heavy responsibilities outside it would be good. Deadlines must absolutely be met! Good luck! Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:35:58 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Insurance This message may have already appeared. I am having problems with my Xsite account and I am not sure what is getting out. Please see the updated insurance listing on the ASI Web site (ASINDEXING.ORG). Sandi Schroeder ASI Board Member ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:21:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Thanks, as usual Many thanks to Cynthia Bertelsen, Sam Andrusko, and Laura Rustin for their Festschrift clarifications. Martha Back Words -wondering how I got to be this old without knowing that... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:59:17 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: ASI insurance The announcement about new insurance available through ASI at asindexing.org/announ.htm#insurance has not changed. It still says you have to make $36,000 per year to qualify. Am I looking in the wrong place? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:22:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: ASI insurance At 04:59 PM 6/21/1998 GMT, David Amundson wrote: >The announcement about new insurance available through ASI at > asindexing.org/announ.htm#insurance has not changed. It still says you have to > make $36,000 per year to qualify. Am I looking in the wrong place? I checked it myself this, and it does not specifically call out disability insurance as the only part of the package that requires a minimum $36,000 in earnings last year. I'd really like to get this cleared up; perhaps Sandy Schroeder, who is credited with coordinating the planning, could post a brief message here about the restrictions. I did send an email to ASI (from the site) asking for more information about the insurance, and suggesting that they have a link right there to whoever is sending out applications and information. I also noted that there's nothing in the site index about insurance or health insurance or disability insurance--and nothing of the sort is listed as a subentry under "American Society of Indexers." The average visitor would have to know the information was there to begin with, and do some random clicking, before he or she found the announcement. I'll gladly share any information I get on the insurance options; if anybody else has already requested and received more information, an application, etc., would you like to give us the details? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:59:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Word to Cindex conversion I'm getting ready to proofread a large index for a client; it's a 1000 page book, and a 100 page index. The index is currently in Word. I want to bring in into Cindex so I can sort it in page number order. Is there an easy wy to do this? Like saving the file as some sort of ASCII delimited file and naming it with a .dat extension? Any tips appreciated; my brain seems to have stopped working tonight. -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:00:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Word to Cindex conversion Ann, I am not a Word expert, but would suggest you talk with the folks at Indexing Research if you can't get the job done otherwise. They recently converted a WordPerfect index for me at a reasonable price. Best, Craig Brown On 6/21/98 18:59 Ann Norcross wrote: >I'm getting ready to proofread a large index for a client; it's a >1000 page book, and a 100 page index. The index is currently in >Word. I want to bring in into Cindex so I can sort it in page >number order. Is there an easy wy to do this? Like saving the >file as some sort of ASCII delimited file and naming it with a >.dat extension? Any tips appreciated; my brain seems to have >stopped working tonight. >-- >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services >(919) 852-0042 >mailto:norcross@ipass.net >