From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Wed Sep 16 15:48:55 1998 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:08:08 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9808B" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:53:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808080139.SAA03728@pacific.net> Tom wrote: >> Jonathan wrote: >> >While we're talking about stereotypes and discriminatory language, let me >> >stick my neck out and suggest that intolerance of people who are in the >> >out-group makes good sense for the cultural survival of the in-group. >> >> What I hear you talking about is the need for the less-powerful to preserve >> identity in the face of the more-powerful. We don't disagree. >> >> --Victoria > >Wasn't Jonathan "sticking his neck out" by saying precisely the opposite? >Sorry if I'm misunderstanding something. Actually, I didn't quite understand the sentence I quoted from Jonathan's post. It was simply the first sentence as I tried to hold my quotation to a minimum. I apologize for that. But if France (or Australia) chooses in any way to oppose the United States and its ubiquitous commercial culture, I see that as a smaller group opposing the impositions of the larger. That even smaller groups within those groups are oppressed is another matter altogether, one that illustrates the fact that conquest, rather than cooperation, is the norm in history. And again, when oppressed groups within a larger group begin to name themselves (thus preserving their own language), indexers must strive to recognize these developments. To do so is no different than writing cross-references that potential users might start with, directing them to the term used in the index. It is an accessibility issue. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 08:33:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: name page rate I would strongly second the suggestion to do a sample, with the per-entry [name] rate based on the hourly rate you want to net. I do an annual journal index with separate author and subject indexes. The author index is approximately 20% the size of the subject index in terms of number of entries; the edit on the author index requires just as long or longer than the subject index because of the necessity of manually verifying the spelling of EVERY name -- which the Cindex spell checker can't do. I charge by the hour on this one; but if I were charging by entry, the rate would be higher for the name index than for the subject index. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 10:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808080655.BAA0000007650@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Victoria Baker wrote: > Tom wrote: > >> Jonathan wrote: > >> >While we're talking about stereotypes and discriminatory language, let me > >> >stick my neck out and suggest that intolerance of people who are in the > >> >out-group makes good sense for the cultural survival of the in-group. > >> > >> What I hear you talking about is the need for the less-powerful to preserve > >> identity in the face of the more-powerful. We don't disagree. > >> > >> --Victoria > > > >Wasn't Jonathan "sticking his neck out" by saying precisely the opposite? > >Sorry if I'm misunderstanding something. > > Actually, I didn't quite understand the sentence I quoted from Jonathan's > post. It was simply the first sentence as I tried to hold my quotation to > a minimum. I apologize for that. But if France (or Australia) chooses in > any way to oppose the United States and its ubiquitous commercial culture, > I see that as a smaller group opposing the impositions of the larger. That > even smaller groups within those groups are oppressed is another matter > altogether, one that illustrates the fact that conquest, rather than > cooperation, is the norm in history. True enough, but I think Jonathan was talking more about a principle than a specific example (France). That is, this whole thing cuts several ways. By the principle of "in-groups" discriminating against "out-groups" as a matter of cultural survival, we are also talking about white supremacists. White supremacists in the US do what they do in large part, as their rhetoric explicitly states, because they feel their superior status is threatened by minorities. They are discriminatory because they feel they must be for cultural survival, whether that threat is real or imagined. The point seems to me to be that even the largest, most powerful "in" group (maybe that would be American commericial culture in today's world) discriminates or is intolerant because it feels its survival is threatened by smaller "out" groups. Certainly American commerical culture's (admittedly an unwieldy, broad term) has as one of its goals the elimnation of, or at least superiority over, competition that threatens its profit and dominance. Again, sorry if I'm taking this far afield of what the original intent was. This is how I understood the original point. Tom Dean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:16:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808081552.IAA28312@pacific.net> Tom wrote: >The point seems to me to be that even the largest, most >powerful "in" group (maybe that would be American commericial >culture in today's world) discriminates or is intolerant because it feels >its survival is threatened by smaller "out" groups. Certainly American >commerical culture's (admittedly an unwieldy, broad term) has as one of >its goals the elimnation of, or at least superiority over, competition >that threatens its profit and dominance. I was trying to show that I see resistance to larger, more powerful groups to be a struggle for identity against the larger. The larger frequently uses all means (as evidenced by white supremacists, e.g.) to continue its conquest. However, I personally don't feel the world is big enough for separatisms anymore, whether they be religious, political, or sexual orientation. I don't think intolerance, as such, is an appropriate tool for peace. People congregating in like-groups is one thing, and limiting the commercial behemoth is another, but my experience is that separatisms (e.g. nationalism, religious chauvinism) will never create a peaceful planet. I think indexers may play a small part in a creating a peaceful planet through respectful, inclusive language appropriate to the field and medium being indexed. Thank you, Tom, for the opportunity to clarify my thoughts. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:36:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808071456.KAA12049@ulster.net> >Of course some culturres appear to be more intolerant than others, but I have >to take exception to your characterization of the French as intolerant. I >think it's just Parisians and the Academy who are intolerant, for the reasons >you state so well. On the other hand, having just returned from a trip to >rural France, I can report that the rural French are as pleasant and friendly >as can be, except for the occasional shop girl! It's so interesting to me. I spent about a month in Paris, and found the Parisians to be warm, helpful and friendly. All the things everyone tells me they're not. I wanted warm friendly people, I guess, so that's what I found--but thruout the city in all types of places. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 20:19:32 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: intolerance as a cultural survival skill Since my background is in sociology I have read with particular interest this thread on intolerance as a cultural survival skill. It may be of general interest to know that this is the premise of the conflict school of sociology. Furthermore, the conflict school was actually used by several terrorist groups of the 1960s as a justification for their terrorist activities. The Red Brigade, for example, had several graduate sociology students among their founding members. In short hand: the conflict school states that since the majority group may use any means necessary (i.e. intolerance as a cultural survival skill) to keep the minority groups subjugated the minority groups are therefore justified in using even violent means to establish their rights. (Sorry about that very run-on sentence but you get the point) Just thought this might be of general interest even though it has nothing to do with indexing :). Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 20:58:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808090306.UAA16957@pacific.net> Sylvia wrote: >In short hand: the conflict school states that since the majority group >may use any means necessary (i.e. intolerance as a cultural survival >skill) to keep the minority groups subjugated the minority groups are >therefore justified in using even violent means to establish their >rights. (Sorry about that very run-on sentence but you get the point) Thanks Sylvia. Once I started hearing the terms rephrased before my last post, I realized I was making a whole lot of assumptions, including that we have all seen enough of this method of change to recognize its limitations. Chief among these limitations, of course, is the killing, maiming, and harming of civilians. Of course some believe that there are no civilians in such cultural wars, but I don't happen to think this is true. ^See also^ Indexers as peacemakers comments in previous post. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 09:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808082115.QAA0000026054@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Victoria Baker wrote: > conquest. However, I personally don't feel the world is big enough for > separatisms anymore, whether they be religious, political, or sexual > orientation. I don't think intolerance, as such, is an appropriate tool > for peace. People congregating in like-groups is one thing, and limiting > the commercial behemoth is another, but my experience is that separatisms > (e.g. nationalism, religious chauvinism) will never create a peaceful planet. > > I think indexers may play a small part in a creating a peaceful planet > through respectful, inclusive language appropriate to the field and medium > being indexed. > > Thank you, Tom, for the opportunity to clarify my thoughts. > I agree with and appreciate what you say. And thanks, Victoria, for bringing this back to indexing--great point. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:47:52 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Barber Subject: misleading subentries In-Reply-To: <199808070510.AAA19271@prtel.com> Hi Sunday workers-- I'm indexing an annotated bibliography and was told not to index the lists of plates, maps etc, but now the bibliographer has requested that subentries like "illustrations of," "maps of," "portraits of," and "views of," be added to some entries and he has supplied the page numbers. The editor and I are concerned that the reader is going to expect to find illustrations, maps, portraits and views on the pages given but what they will really find is the name of a publication where this illustrative material can be found. Is there a less misleading way to word these subentries? Or can we expect that users of bibliographies understand what those subentries mean? Thanks, Kathy Barber Indexing abarber@prtel.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 14:30:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Books Site for Comparison Price Shopping Since buying books is a theme on this list, I though you might find this Book price search Engine http://www.acses.com helpful. You put in a title or ISBN and it searches 25 books stores and come back with a nice table showoing Store Price Shipping Cost Shipping Method Shipping Time. It was pretty fast. Roberta Hoorwitz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:35:45 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Standing Subject: Call for Papers JoSIT Call For Papers The Journal of Systems and Information Technology The Journal provides an avenue for scholarly work that takes a systemic or holistic perspective in relation to areas such as information systems development, information technology and information systems management. The Journal of Systems and Information Technology fosters primarily, although not exclusively, interpretive or qualitative research methods including ethnographic, genealogical, action research and case studies of various kinds. Research that uses quantitative methods, for example statistical surveys, will be suitable if they take a broad perspective of the problems and issues. This means very often that the social and political aspects will be considered as well as the technical. Target topics that will be relevant to JoSIT include but are not limited to: o IS/IT planning that takes a systemic approach o Innovative Soft Systems approaches used in information systems developme nt o The integration of software and/or hardware technologies that provide holistic solutions to problems. For example, the integration of various aspects of software engineering paradigms. o Human Computer Interaction (HCI) problems tackled in an systemic or integrated way. o Research papers that promote the development of interpretive or qualitative research methodologies in relation to Information Systems through case studies. o Systems approaches in the management of information systems. o Holistic approaches in the development of technology policy and technolo gy transfer. o Integrative methods of systems design. o Systems perspectives in IS/IT evaluation. o The use of metaphors as an integrative theme for aspects of IT/IS. o The influence of politics and culture on systems development and the use of information technology. Book Reviews JoSIT will include book reviews and information concerning conferences in the holistic information systems field. Publication and Manuscript Guidelines Researchers as well as Information Systems Professionals are invited to submit papers for the Journal. All papers will undergo a blind refereeing process by at least three referees. Papers can be sent in hard or soft copy. Soft copies should be in Microsoft Word for MAC or PC format. The Journal will be published twice a year in March and September. Further details are available upon request. All submissions must be original works which have not appeared elsewhere and which are not being considered for publication with another journal. As the reviewing process will be conducted anonymously, please leave your name(s) off the manuscript. People are encouraged to send their papers either in by email or hard copy form to: Dr. Craig Standing, Editor-in-Chief, JoSIT email: c.standing@cowan.edu.au Fax: 61 8 9400 5633 Tel: 61 8 9400 5545 School of Management Information Systems Edith Cowan University, Joondalup, Western Australia 6027 Editorial Board Chief Editor: Dr. Craig Standing Edith Cowan University, Western Australia Members of the Editorial Board Rakesh Agrawal University of Western Sydney, Australia Robert Flood University of Hull, UK James Alleman University of Colorado, USA Duncan Langford University of Kent, UK Teodosio Perez Amaral Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain Chantal Morley Institute National des Telecommunications, Evry, France Richard Baskerville Binghamton University, N.Y., USA Michael Myers University of Auckland, NZ Paul Beynon-Davies University of Glamorgan, Wales, UK. Dewald Roode University of Pretoria, S.A. Subhash Bhatnagar Indian Institute of Management Ross Smith Swinburne University of Technology, Australia Bill Doolin University of Waikato, NZ Hazel Suchard Australian Catholic University Keith Ellis University of Humberside, UK Ned Kock Temple University, USA ***************************************** Dr Craig Standing School of Management Information Systems Edith Cowan University Joondalup Western Australia 6027 Te: 61 8 94005545 Fax: 61 8 94005633 Email: c.standing@cowan.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:35:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Unsubscribing I thought I was so obedient and all, saving the instructions on how to unsubscribe from Index-L, so that when I'd return from vacation I wouldn't have a bulging mailbox. But it didn't work. I was greeted with 504 messages this morning. (No offense to all, but my delete key will be busy over the next few days!) Could somebody quickly let me know what I did wrong? I promise I'll copy THAT, and use it next time! Thanks. This is what I typed. To: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu cc: Subject: Unsubscribing SIGNOFF INDEX-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:43:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Unsubscribing Larry, Sorry about your overloaded mailbox. I tell people to use the word "unsubscribe" instead of signoff. I was under the impression, however, that "signoff" would work as well with most listserv software. Maybe not. I will look into it. In the future, another way to stop mail is to send the message: set index-l nomail and upon your return send the message: set index-l mail. At least with the nomail option you will receive a message confirming your request. Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: > I thought I was so obedient and all, saving the instructions on how to > unsubscribe from Index-L, so that when I'd return from vacation > I wouldn't have a bulging mailbox. But it didn't work. I was > greeted with 504 messages this morning. (No offense to all, but > my delete key will be busy over the next few days!) Could > somebody quickly let me know what I did wrong? I promise I'll > copy THAT, and use it next time! Thanks. > > This is what I typed. > > > > To: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu > cc: > Subject: Unsubscribing > > SIGNOFF INDEX-L > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:55:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Unsubscribing On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:35:00 -0400 Larry.Baker@GALE.COM writes: > >This is what I typed. > > > >To: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu >cc: >Subject: Unsubscribing > >SIGNOFF INDEX-L Perhaps the problem was the Subject line - it should be blank. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:52:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: reflow I know I've seen mention of indexers dealing with reflow after an index has been completed, but I'm wondering how common this is and what processes people use to handle it? And do you charge extra for it, or do you figure it's part of the original job? I've just finished (and I think I've finally really *finished*) the third or fourth revision to an index I completed two weeks ago. Some of the changes were simply "everything from page 361 to the end of the book has lost two pages," which is easy enough to deal with. But there were several clumps of 15 - 30 pages where figures had been relocated, resulting in page breaks jumping around all over the place. And one or two of those clumps got revised twice. In the 2 1/2 years I've been indexing, this is the first time I've had to deal with reflow after an index has been turned in. It's understandable in this case, since it was a multi-authored book and I guess it was somewhat of a challenge to communicate with all of them. And I knew up front that there would be one round of final revisions immediately after I handed off the index. But this got to feeling like the eveready bunny -- they just kept coming and coming and coming! (complicated by the fact that my ISP crashed early Friday morning and didn't come back up till Sunday afternoon, losing three days worth of incoming email in the meantime...and the revisions were being posted to an ftp site in PDF form on Friday.) (I've got a backup ISP now! Amazing how attached we -- I, anyway -- have become to this email stuff!) TIA for your thoughts on this issue! Caroline (note new email address below) ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 cparks@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: reflow In-Reply-To: <199808101822.OAA10341@mail4.bellsouth.net> Caroline, I know (and dread...) the process of revision and last-minute changes you're talking about -- but I've never heard the term "reflow" before. Any idea where it comes from? Does it have a more technical meaning in another field? Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Caroline Parks |Sent: Monday, August 10, 1998 12:52 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: reflow | | |I know I've seen mention of indexers dealing with reflow after an index has |been completed, but I'm wondering how common this is and what processes |people use to handle it? And do you charge extra for it, or do you figure |it's part of the original job? | |I've just finished (and I think I've finally really *finished*) |the third or |fourth revision to an index I completed two weeks ago. Some of the changes |were simply "everything from page 361 to the end of the book has lost two |pages," which is easy enough to deal with. But there were several |clumps of |15 - 30 pages where figures had been relocated, resulting in page breaks |jumping around all over the place. And one or two of those clumps got |revised twice. | |In the 2 1/2 years I've been indexing, this is the first time I've had to |deal with reflow after an index has been turned in. It's understandable in |this case, since it was a multi-authored book and I guess it was |somewhat of |a challenge to communicate with all of them. And I knew up front |that there |would be one round of final revisions immediately after I handed off the |index. But this got to feeling like the eveready bunny -- they just kept |coming and coming and coming! (complicated by the fact that my ISP crashed |early Friday morning and didn't come back up till Sunday afternoon, losing |three days worth of incoming email in the meantime...and the revisions were |being posted to an ftp site in PDF form on Friday.) (I've got a backup ISP |now! Amazing how attached we -- I, anyway -- have become to this email |stuff!) | |TIA for your thoughts on this issue! | |Caroline | |(note new email address below) |____________________________ | |Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence |Indexing and Editorial Services | |Tijeras, NM |505-286-2738 |cparks@mindspring.com | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:20:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: reflow This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC472.6E9EAB10 Content-Type: text/plain In publishing production we talk of "flowing type into the pages" of a layout program (I use Quark), and of type "flowing" continuously from one page's text box to the next. We use the term "reflow" on a daily basis around here, since it occurs anytime someone makes a type change after I proofread an article! In fact, when page film comes back from the service bureau and type has shifted for some unexplained reason, we shrug and attribute it to "The Reflow Problem" (type occasionally reflows due to typeface inconsistencies during film output). Maybe not a "technical meaning" but one frequently used in my office. Anne -------------------------------------------- Anne B. Day Editorial Production Manager Professional Jeweler magazine Bond Communications aday@professionaljeweler.com http://www.professionaljeweler.com > ---------- > From: Michael K. Smith > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Monday, August 10, 1998 2:47 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: reflow > > Caroline, I know (and dread...) the process of revision and > last-minute > changes you're talking about -- but I've never heard the term "reflow" > before. Any idea where it comes from? Does it have a more technical > meaning > in another field? > > Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services > mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 > http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > > > |-----Original Message----- > |From: Indexer's Discussion Group > |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Caroline Parks > |Sent: Monday, August 10, 1998 12:52 PM > |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > |Subject: reflow > | > | > |I know I've seen mention of indexers dealing with reflow after an > index has > |been completed, but I'm wondering how common this is and what > processes > |people use to handle it? And do you charge extra for it, or do you > figure > |it's part of the original job? > | > |I've just finished (and I think I've finally really *finished*) > |the third or > |fourth revision to an index I completed two weeks ago. Some of the > changes > |were simply "everything from page 361 to the end of the book has lost > two > |pages," which is easy enough to deal with. But there were several > |clumps of > |15 - 30 pages where figures had been relocated, resulting in page > breaks > |jumping around all over the place. And one or two of those clumps > got > |revised twice. > | > |In the 2 1/2 years I've been indexing, this is the first time I've > had to > |deal with reflow after an index has been turned in. It's > understandable in > |this case, since it was a multi-authored book and I guess it was > |somewhat of > |a challenge to communicate with all of them. And I knew up front > |that there > |would be one round of final revisions immediately after I handed off > the > |index. But this got to feeling like the eveready bunny -- they just > kept > |coming and coming and coming! (complicated by the fact that my ISP > crashed > |early Friday morning and didn't come back up till Sunday afternoon, > losing > |three days worth of incoming email in the meantime...and the > revisions were > |being posted to an ftp site in PDF form on Friday.) (I've got a > backup ISP > |now! Amazing how attached we -- I, anyway -- have become to this > email > |stuff!) > | > |TIA for your thoughts on this issue! > | > |Caroline > | > |(note new email address below) > |____________________________ > | > |Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence > |Indexing and Editorial Services > | > |Tijeras, NM > |505-286-2738 > |cparks@mindspring.com > | > ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC472.6E9EAB10 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In publishing production we = talk of "flowing type into the pages" of a layout program (I = use Quark), and of type "flowing" continuously from one = page's text box to the next. We use the term "reflow" on a = daily basis around here, since it occurs anytime someone makes a type = change after I proofread an article! In fact, when page film comes back = from the service bureau and type has shifted for some unexplained = reason, we shrug and attribute it to "The Reflow Problem" = (type occasionally reflows due to typeface inconsistencies during film = output). Maybe not a "technical meaning" but one frequently = used in my office.


Anne

--------------------------------------------
Anne B. Day
Editorial Production = Manager         
Professional Jeweler = magazine       
Bond Communications
aday@professionaljeweler.com
http://www.professionaljeweler.com

    ----------
    From:   Michael K. Smith
    Reply To: =       Indexer's = Discussion Group
    Sent:   Monday, August 10, 1998 2:47 PM
    To:     = Multiple recipients of list = INDEX-L
    Subject: =        Re: = reflow

    Caroline, I know (and dread...) the = process of revision and last-minute
    changes you're talking about -- but = I've never heard the term "reflow"
    before. Any idea where it comes from? = Does it have a more technical meaning
    in another field?

    Michael K. = Smith           Smith = Editorial Services
    mksmith1@bellsouth.net      = ;          ICQ = #15741870
    http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html
     ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just = HAVE all kinds


    |-----Original Message-----
    |From: Indexer's Discussion = Group
    |[    mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Caroline Parks
    |Sent: Monday, August 10, 1998 12:52 = PM
    |To: Multiple recipients of list = INDEX-L
    |Subject: reflow
    |
    |
    |I know I've seen mention of indexers = dealing with reflow after an index has
    |been completed, but I'm wondering = how common this is and what processes
    |people use to handle it? And do you = charge extra for it, or do you figure
    |it's part of the original = job?
    |
    |I've just finished (and I think I've = finally really *finished*)
    |the third or
    |fourth revision to an index I = completed two weeks ago.  Some of the changes
    |were simply "everything from = page 361 to the end of the book has lost two
    |pages," which is easy enough to = deal with.  But there were several
    |clumps of
    |15 - 30 pages where figures had been = relocated, resulting in page breaks
    |jumping around all over the = place.  And one or two of those clumps got
    |revised twice.
    |
    |In the 2 1/2 years I've been = indexing, this is the first time I've had to
    |deal with reflow after an index has = been turned in.  It's understandable in
    |this case, since it was a = multi-authored book and I guess it was
    |somewhat of
    |a challenge to communicate with all = of them.  And I knew up front
    |that there
    |would be one round of final = revisions immediately after I handed off the
    |index.  But this got to feeling = like the eveready bunny -- they just kept
    |coming and coming and coming!  = (complicated by the fact that my ISP crashed
    |early Friday morning and didn't come = back up till Sunday afternoon, losing
    |three days worth of incoming email = in the meantime...and the revisions were
    |being posted to an ftp site in PDF = form on Friday.)  (I've got a backup ISP
    |now!  Amazing how attached we = -- I, anyway -- have become to this email
    |stuff!)
    |
    |TIA for your thoughts on this = issue!
    |
    |Caroline
    |
    |(note new email address = below)
    |____________________________
    |
    |Caroline Parks -- = Indexcellence
    |Indexing and Editorial = Services
    |
    |Tijeras, NM
    |505-286-2738
    |cparks@mindspring.com
    |

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC472.6E9EAB10-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:28:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: E-mail format apology I apologize for all the extra "gunk" at the ends of my posts. I thought I had this solved, but I apparently do not. This message is a test to see if it happens again. Again, sorry about this... Anne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:41:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Neck problems This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BDC475.53CB6BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is just a few words of advice from a usual lurker. Do not ever talk = on the phone while cradling the phone between your ear and your = shoulder. I have had that bad habit for years and now face surgery for = two herniated discs and three months of wearing a rigid collar during = which I will not be able to drive a car. Doing two things at once is = tempting, and with cordless phones entirely possible, but, trust me, = it's not worth it. Thinking happy thoughts and hoping to have saved a few necks, Linda Cardella Cournoyer (feeling a kinship with those of you suffering = through the heat because it's even pretty hot and humid up here in = Beloeil, Quebec) cardella@videotron.ca ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BDC475.53CB6BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is just a few words of advice = from a usual=20 lurker. Do not ever talk on the phone while cradling the phone between = your ear=20 and your shoulder. I have had that bad habit for years and now face = surgery for=20 two herniated discs and three months of wearing a rigid collar during = which I=20 will not be able to drive a car. Doing two things at once is tempting, = and with=20 cordless phones entirely possible, but, trust me, it's not worth=20 it.
 
Thinking happy thoughts and hoping = to have saved=20 a few necks,
Linda Cardella Cournoyer  = (feeling a=20 kinship with those of you suffering through the heat because it's even = pretty=20 hot and humid up here in Beloeil, Quebec)
cardella@videotron.ca ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BDC475.53CB6BE0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:09:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Neck problems In-Reply-To: <199808101951.MAA27809@pacific.net> >This is just a few words of advice from a usual lurker. Do not ever talk = >on the phone while cradling the phone between your ear and your = >shoulder. I have had that bad habit for years and now face surgery for = >two herniated discs and three months of wearing a rigid collar during = >which I will not be able to drive a car. Doing two things at once is = >tempting, and with cordless phones entirely possible, but, trust me, = >it's not worth it. But what does work and makes it not a health issue for most people is getting a telephone headset, which consists of a very lightweight one- or two-eared headset plus a box that sits on the desk and plugs into the phone. I loved mine (need to get a replacement, they do wear out eventually). --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:12:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: reflow Normally, I do not charge extra for reflow problems if: (a) it's a matter of whole pages, as you mentioned, since that takes only a few minutes; (b) it requires one hour or less to fix; and/or (c) the problem is discovered and remedied before I turn in the index. Anything outside that is charged at an additional hourly rate. I find that the best way to quote a rate is to figure what you are making hourly for the index (assuming it's priced per page), add what you feel is fair for the aggravation, and deduct a bit if it's for a good (pleasant to work for) client. This *karmic* formula should yield an hourly rate that you feel is fair. (OK -- so I don't do things just like everybody else -- I was an only child.) Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather McMurray Subject: Voice software Does anyone on the list work with voice software, or work around a hand/wrist/neck injury? I'm not an indexer yet, but am thinking about taking the course. I worked at software QA for 15 years after getting an M.S. in zoology, and am disabled with bilateral CTS pain and RSD. I was part of a mass layoff at CompuServe when it was purchased by AOL in February and would like to work with voice software. I would need to work at my own pace because voice software use can create vocal cord nodules if overused. Heather McMurray, certified software test engineer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:13:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: reflow charges If you had a confirmation agreement or contract with the client (and you should!), it would state what your charges are for work performed after the index has been submitted. Like Sandy, I do not charge if it takes less than a couple of hours, if it is for a good (repeat) client who apologizes for the nuisance factor, and if I have time. When I am rushed on other projects, have been treated poorly by the client, or if the project takes a day or 2 to fix (once I spent 18 hours "fixing" an index), I am glad that I have a clause in my confirmation letter than clearly states that all work on the index performed after it has been submitted is subject to a charge of $X per hour. That fee is, as Sandy says, the approximate cost of an hour of my time on that particular indexing project (as projected). In 15 years in business, I have only ever charged this additional fee once or twice, but I have been glad that it is clearly stated up front and long before the time to negotiate around a problem. In one instance where I refused to charge a client because the problem didn't take long to solve, they bought me a reference book of my choice as a way to pay me back without "paying" me. I felt satisfied with that arrangement, and I think that the client was also pleased with this solution. Anyway, my main point here is that you should have a confirmation agreement or contract, and you should spell out contingency expenses before you ever begin an index. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:16:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Unsubscribing You"re suppossed to leave the subject line blank. Suellen _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:22:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Neck problems In a message dated 8/10/98 3:53:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cardella@VIDEOTRON.CA writes: > > This is just a few words of advice from a usual lurker. Do not ever talk = > on the phone while cradling the phone between your ear and your = > shoulder. I have had that bad habit for years and now face surgery for = > two herniated discs and three months of wearing a rigid collar during = > which I will not be able to drive a car. Doing two things at once is = > tempting, and with cordless phones entirely possible, but, trust me, = > it's not worth it. > Linda, I really sympathize with you on this! I have problems with neck pain, mostly associated with tension, but also from being tossed off a horse onto my head. In my former workplace we had speaker phones, which I hate to talk on, but I found them great for times when I was on hold. I have been thinking of buying one for my home desk, and your post has given me some motivation. Perhaps I'd better get used to talking on the things! Good luck with your surgery! Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: reflow In-Reply-To: <199808101926.MAA23917@pacific.net> Anne wrote: >In publishing production we talk of "flowing type into the pages" of a >layout program (I use Quark), and of type "flowing" continuously from >one page's text box to the next. We use the term "reflow" on a daily >basis around here, since it occurs anytime someone makes a type change >after I proofread an article! In fact, when page film comes back from >the service bureau and type has shifted for some unexplained reason, we >shrug and attribute it to "The Reflow Problem" (type occasionally >reflows due to typeface inconsistencies during film output). Maybe not a >"technical meaning" but one frequently used in my office. Two historical notes: This used to be called "pagination" or "pagination changes" in the old days before desktop publishing introduced its own publishing jargon. And, in the old days, pagination didn't change at the printer because they printed directly from the boards that the compositor provided. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: Periodical Indexing I have finally gotten my first batch of letters out to various publishers in search of my first indexing job. While waiting for an answer, I continue to query other publishers. I guess that puts me in the LURKING stage of this career field. I recently came across a term/title I am unsure of.....Periodical Indexer as opposed to Back of the book indexer. Can someone please enlighten me. Thank you, Steve Sawula Indexing IMUKIE2@JUNO.COM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:11:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "B. Wurf" Subject: How many indexers does it take. . .? Hi, The quote below was forwarded to me by a friend. Having read it, I am now wondering what indexers will say about how many indexers it takes to change/screw in a lightbulb. As in: Q. How many indexers does it take to change a lightbulb? A. I could not think of any great responses myself, but I'm sure others can, and I'd love to hear them. > >Since there are more than a few people reading this who are associated with >publishing in one way or another, I take the liberty of forwarding this >message, which I received from Irene Sloan, herself an editor par >excellence: > >Q. How many editors does it take to screw in a lightbulb? >A. Only one; but first they have to rewire the entire building. > >Q. How many sales directors does it take to screw in a lightbulb? >A. (pause) I get it! This is one of those lightbulb jokes, right? > >Q. How many managing editors does it take to change a lightbulb? >A. You were supposed to have changed that lightbulb last week! > >Q. How many art directors does it take to change a lightbulb? >A. Does it HAVE to be a lightbulb? > >Q. How many copy editors does it take to change a lightbulb? >A. The last time this question was asked, it involved art directors. > Is the difference intentional? Should one or the other instance > be changed? It seems inconsistent. > >Q. How many marketing directors does it take to change a lightbulb? >A. It isn't too late to make this neon instead, is it? > >Q. How many proofreaders does it take to change a lightbulb? >A. Proofreaders aren't supposed to change lightbulbs. They should > just query them. > >Q. How many writers does it take to change a lightbulb? >A. But why do we have to CHANGE it? > >Q. How many cover artists does it take to change a lightbulb? >A. Why is there...an eggbeater, I think?...sticking out of this > light fixture? > >Q. How many publishers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? >A. Three. One to screw it in, two to hold down the author. Barbara Wurf Indexpert Services ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Barbara Wurf ------ bwurf@earthlink.net and... -----/@ \ Los Angeles, Calif., USA \ | \\ \_____ | / \ | \_/ \ |~~~~~~~~\ "Buddy" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:21:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Periodical Indexing Sawula Periodical indexing (also called database indexing) are those that index journals for database like Medline, Sociological Abstracts, create year end indexes to a volume of journals and even the indexing of newspapers. Roberta At 09:35 PM 8/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have finally gotten my first batch of letters out to various publishers >in search of my first indexing job. While waiting for an answer, I >continue to query other publishers. I guess that puts me in the LURKING >stage of this career field. I recently came across a term/title I am >unsure of.....Periodical Indexer as opposed to Back of the book indexer. >Can someone please enlighten me. >Thank you, >Steve > >Sawula Indexing >IMUKIE2@JUNO.COM > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 01:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: Neck problems In-Reply-To: <199808110024.UAA23803@camel23.mindspring.com> Ann Truesdale suggests: > In my former workplace we had speaker phones, which I hate to talk on, but I found them great for times when I was on hold. I have been thinking of buying one for my home desk, and your post has given me some motivation. Perhaps I'd better get used to talking on the things! < My new computer came with a telephone program, Megaphone, which includes a speakerphone function, a microphone, and speakers. It works well and I use it the telephone on my desk. If you need to save them, you can use it to record voice mail messages as a .wav file. Cheers, Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 03:55:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: How Many Indexers to Change a Lightbulb? Hi - Well, one answer that springs to mind is: A: "One, if you can give me an extra day..." Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 04:09:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Speed-reading Has anyone tried a speed-reading course (a course, not what comes naturally) to improve productivty? (NO, I'm not thinking of doing it; it's just that someone broke a record in NY yesterday). Kim (Kim Harris) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 01:34:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Greek history/philosophy question Will someone please tell me if the group referenced by Socrates in the ^Apology^ as "the Thirty" (for whom he refused to collude in the execution of an innocent man) is the same as the Thirty Tyrants, two members of whom were Plato's relatives? TIA, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:20:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Barringer Subject: GETTING STARTED-NEED ADVICE ON COURSES Would anyone be willing to advise me on the priority of courses to take for getting started in indexing? I am looking at the USDA courses (Basic and Applied Indexing) and/or Susan Holbert's video course. How much do I need to get work initially? In addition, is there any source that gives an indication of the job market for indexers in various cities? I live in Columbus, Ohio. Thanks! Jill B. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:56:32 -0400 Reply-To: TonyDavies@sprintmail.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tony Davies Organization: Camillo Subject: Re: Greek history/philosophy question Victoria Baker wrote: > > Will someone please tell me if the group referenced by Socrates in the > ^Apology^ as "the Thirty" (for whom he refused to collude in the execution > of an innocent man) is the same as the Thirty Tyrants, two members of whom > were Plato's relatives? > > TIA, > Victoria Yes, Tony Davies ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:44:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? To everyone: The answer to the lightbulb is 1,004. One to screw it in. One to index it under "e" (electric lightbulb) One to index it under "t" (tungsten lightbulb) One to index it under "f" (fluorescent lightbulb) One to index in under "l" (lightbulb) and another 1,000 to debate the indexing protocol over the e-mail. How's that? rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: GETTING STARTED-NEED ADVICE ON COURSES I can't help you with prioritizing courses (I got my start informally while working as a reference librarian). On the issue of job markets it is my experience that your location is not signficant if you are planning to freelance. FedEx & e-mail make it just as easy to work for a company on the opposite coast as it is to work for a company in your area. I live in the suburbs of Phila and regularly provide indexes for publishers in California, New York, Indiana, etc. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com >Would anyone be willing to advise me on the priority of courses to take >for getting started in indexing? I am looking at the USDA courses (Basic >and Applied Indexing) and/or Susan Holbert's video course. How much do I >need to get work initially? In addition, is there any source that gives >an indication of the job market for indexers in various cities? I live >in Columbus, Ohio. Thanks! > >Jill B. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:00:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: reflow Actually, type doesn't reflow for us at the printer, per se, since they use the film that we've checked and sent them. However, when this film is made from our electronic files by our service bureau, strange things can and do happen. It's my job to see that this film doesn't make it to the printer! Instead, new film is made to reflect the way we intended the type to flow. In other words, we can't really blame anyone but ourselves, as production managers, if the final product is wrong. Translating this to book publishing (I believe the process is the same), indexers are owed a current copy of the manuscript to work from and shouldn't be expected to make later revisions free of charge, in my opinion, since any unintended reflow should be corrected. Last-minute author corrections are of course a fact of publishing life, but I can't imagine an editor would expect the indexer to adjust the index at no charge. Am I being naive? By the way, I hope I'm not confusing any INDEX-L listmembers by the fact that I wear two hats... as production manager for a trade periodical (for which I compile the editorial index!) and as an occasional freelance back-of-book indexer. In my posts, I try to qualify the word "we" when I use it, so you'll know which perspective I'm speaking from. Anne B. Day Editorial Production Manager Professional Jeweler magazine Bond Communications aday@professionaljeweler.com http://www.professionaljeweler.com ----------- Victoria wrote: Two historical notes: This used to be called "pagination" or "pagination changes" in the old days before desktop publishing introduced its own publishing jargon. And, in the old days, pagination didn't change at the printer because they printed directly from the boards that the compositor provided. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:07:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Optimum thesaurus size We are building a thesaurus for use by reporters. Some of our products will be classified by top terms only, some by secondary terms and some (my job) using tertiary terms to make a detailed index. I have been asked what is the optimum number of top terms. The reporters are all well educated good writers but they don't necessarily have training or any interest in indexing. I put together this little survey to collect your opinions. 20 terms? Why? 40 terms? Why? 80 terms? Why? Also, do you know of any research that has already been done in this area? If you want to contact me off-list I will compile the results for the group. Many thanks, Nell Benton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:09:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day This means compiling an editorial index for one or more periodicals. Many periodicals send an index to subscribers once per year or so... though some might only use the index in-house. My understanding is that such indexing can be done with regular indexing software as well as with a database (which is what I'm trying to do). Anne B. Day Editorial Production Manager Professional Jeweler magazine Bond Communications aday@professionaljeweler.com http://www.professionaljeweler.com ------------- I have finally gotten my first batch of letters out to various publishers in search of my first indexing job. While waiting for an answer, I continue to query other publishers. I guess that puts me in the LURKING stage of this career field. I recently came across a term/title I am unsure of.....Periodical Indexer as opposed to Back of the book indexer. Can someone please enlighten me. Thank you, Steve Sawula Indexing IMUKIE2@JUNO.COM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:32:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? << I could not think of any great responses myself, but I'm sure others can, and I'd love to hear them. Q. How many indexers does it take to change a lightbulb? >> A. Indexers don't change lightbulbs. But they'll be happy to make a list of all the lightbulbs and their locations so that the maintenance crew can find them later. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:05:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? In-Reply-To: <199808110421.AAA08140@camel26.mindspring.com> At 09:11 PM 8/10/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >The quote below was forwarded to me by a friend. Having read it, I am now >wondering what indexers will say about how many indexers it takes to >change/screw in a lightbulb. As in: > Q. How many indexers does it take to change a lightbulb? A. See lightbulbs, changing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:03:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: reflow In-Reply-To: <199808111309.GAA16317@decibel.electriciti.com> As I recall, the actual query was to colleagues about how you handle the mechanics of reflow. I, too, am interested. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:17:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? Q. How many indexers does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Only one. However, when that indexer puts in a bid for the task, the person who requested that the bulb be changed will claim that the bid is much too high, and that he/she can hire someone for much less money to simply hang a flashlight from the ceiling. If the indexer does get the job and performs the task, he or she will be asked at the last minute to make substantial changes because the bulb is too small (or too large), too bright (or too dim), or the wrong color. John Sullivan > -----Original Message----- > From: B. Wurf [SMTP:bwurf@EARTHLINK.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 12:12 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: How many indexers does it take. . .? > > Hi, > > The quote below was forwarded to me by a friend. Having read it, I am now > wondering what indexers will say about how many indexers it takes to > change/screw in a lightbulb. As in: > > Q. How many indexers does it take to change a lightbulb? > A. > > I could not think of any great responses myself, but I'm sure others can, > and I'd love to hear them. > > > > > >Since there are more than a few people reading this who are associated > with > >publishing in one way or another, I take the liberty of forwarding this > >message, which I received from Irene Sloan, herself an editor par > >excellence: > > > >Q. How many editors does it take to screw in a lightbulb? > >A. Only one; but first they have to rewire the entire building. > > > >Q. How many sales directors does it take to screw in a lightbulb? > >A. (pause) I get it! This is one of those lightbulb jokes, right? > > > >Q. How many managing editors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. You were supposed to have changed that lightbulb last week! > > > >Q. How many art directors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. Does it HAVE to be a lightbulb? > > > >Q. How many copy editors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. The last time this question was asked, it involved art directors. > > Is the difference intentional? Should one or the other instance > > be changed? It seems inconsistent. > > > >Q. How many marketing directors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. It isn't too late to make this neon instead, is it? > > > >Q. How many proofreaders does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. Proofreaders aren't supposed to change lightbulbs. They should > > just query them. > > > >Q. How many writers does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. But why do we have to CHANGE it? > > > >Q. How many cover artists does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. Why is there...an eggbeater, I think?...sticking out of this > > light fixture? > > > >Q. How many publishers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? > >A. Three. One to screw it in, two to hold down the author. > > Barbara Wurf > Indexpert Services > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Barbara Wurf ------ bwurf@earthlink.net > and... -----/@ \ Los Angeles, Calif., USA > \ | \\ > \_____ | / \ > | \_/ \ > |~~~~~~~~\ > "Buddy" > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:44:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Greek history/philosophy question Victoria asked: << Will someone please tell me if the group referenced by Socrates in the ^Apology^ as "the Thirty" (for whom he refused to collude in the execution of an innocent man) is the same as the Thirty Tyrants, two members of whom were Plato's relatives? >> I'm pretty sure they are. The innocent man was Socrates. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:25:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? In-Reply-To: <199808111250.HAA0000004062@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Robert A. Saigh wrote: > To everyone: > > The answer to the lightbulb is 1,004. > > One to screw it in. > One to index it under "e" (electric lightbulb) > One to index it under "t" (tungsten lightbulb) > One to index it under "f" (fluorescent lightbulb) > One to index in under "l" (lightbulb) > and another 1,000 to debate the indexing protocol over the e-mail. > > How's that? > > rob > fugleman@mindspring.com Now, shouldn't we have a listing under "b", too, for "bulb"? Should "lightbulb" be one or two words? Should all the variations of "lightbulb" be subentries or have their own entries? Should there be any cross-referencing? ;_) Tom Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:50:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Dempsey, Mark F." Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? And, if Fluorescent Light Bulb is a heading, Incandescent Light Bulb should also be a heading. > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Dean [SMTP:deantom@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 11:25 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? > > On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Robert A. Saigh wrote: > > > To everyone: > > > > The answer to the lightbulb is 1,004. > > > > One to screw it in. > > One to index it under "e" (electric lightbulb) > > One to index it under "t" (tungsten lightbulb) > > One to index it under "f" (fluorescent lightbulb) > > One to index in under "l" (lightbulb) > > and another 1,000 to debate the indexing protocol over the e-mail. > > > > How's that? > > > > rob > > fugleman@mindspring.com > > Now, shouldn't we have a listing under "b", too, for "bulb"? Should > "lightbulb" be one or two words? Should all the variations of "lightbulb" > be subentries or have their own entries? Should there be any > cross-referencing? > > ;_) > > Tom Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:57:16 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Search engine and index for a simple HTML help system! Tytus Pluciennik wrote: > > ... some HTML help systems use an alphabetical index that usually > starts with a set of buttons representing each letter of the alphabet > (a link to topics that start with the letter chosen). > The point is that my help system is as gimmick-free as possible and > I'd like an index that follows the same rule. > > Do any of you know of an application that can generate such > a straight-forward index...? That is *precisely* the purpose of our new program, HTML Indexer(tm). HTML Indexer produces a single, simple HTML file that you add to your HTML project. The file consists of a "back of the book"-style index with links across the top (and optionally the bottom, too) that point to the letter groups within the index. You can choose whether to use text or graphics for these links to the letter headings (and for the headings themselves). The program even includes two sets of graphics (Symbols, Numbers, and A through Z) that you can use in your own indexes. To use HTML Indexer, you simply tell it which files you want to include in your index. HTML Indexer scans the files, creating an index entry for each file and another for each named anchor within those files. If you're satisfied with the default entries, just set a few stylistic options (or accept the default settings), and click the Make Index button. Most indexers will override the default entries, adding synonyms, making entries consistent in capitalization and terminolgy, and so on. HTML Indexer makes it easy to create exactly the index you want. As you work, you can sort index entries by type (file-level or anchor-level, default or enhanced), by entry text (as they'll be in the finished index), or by target URL. You can even view subsets of your index by selecting target anchors and files in the project "tree." Best of all, HTML Indexer stores your index entries right in your source HTML files, so you can refresh the index any time you add files or move them around. HTML Indexer determines the target URLs, so you can concentrate on making the best index possible. Please visit http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/FAQ.htm for more information about HTML Indexer. Then, if you have any questions, send mailto:HTML-Indexer@brown-inc.com. Thank you, --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:08:07 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CHARLES LACEY Subject: New email address Hi everyone! Beginning tomoorw (about noon, they tell us) we will have a new e-mail address: CTLACEY@FLASH.NET We'll send you another message on the new service when all the connections are complete. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:11:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? In-Reply-To: <199808111248.IAA32538@ulster.net> > The answer to the lightbulb is 1,004. > > One to screw it in. > One to index it under "e" (electric lightbulb) > One to index it under "t" (tungsten lightbulb) > One to index it under "f" (fluorescent lightbulb) > One to index in under "l" (lightbulb) > and another 1,000 to debate the indexing protocol over the e-mail. > > How's that? Rob - are you referring to the answer or the math? (1,005 by my count) -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:25:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC512.E3B58810 Content-Type: text/plain This is ABSOLUTELY the best response. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 3:06 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? > > At 09:11 PM 8/10/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >The quote below was forwarded to me by a friend. Having read it, I am > now > >wondering what indexers will say about how many indexers it takes to > >change/screw in a lightbulb. As in: > > > > Q. How many indexers does it take to change a lightbulb? > A. See lightbulbs, changing ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC512.E3B58810 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is ABSOLUTELY the best = response.

Toni

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Richard Evans = [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM]
    Sent:   Tuesday, August 11, 1998 3:06 PM
    To:     Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
    Subject:       = Re: How many indexers does it take. = . .?

    At 09:11 PM 8/10/98 = -0700, you wrote:
    >Hi,
    >
    >The quote below = was forwarded to me by a friend. Having read it, I am now
    >wondering what = indexers will say about how many indexers it takes to
    >change/screw in = a lightbulb. As in:
    >

    Q. How many = indexers does it take to change a lightbulb?
    A. See lightbulbs, = changing

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC512.E3B58810-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:29:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Apologies I apologize for my last post. I failed to amend the send properties. Sorry. Toni Clark Williams The Procyon Group Documentation Department ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:28:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: reflow >As I recall, the actual query was to colleagues about how you handle the >mechanics of reflow. I, too, am interested. >Pam Rider Actually, I was asking both about the financial aspects and the mechanical aspects. Thanks for all the responses so far, and don't stop now! I have a better idea of how to handle the financial end, and since this is a new client, I will probably discuss it with him in terms of "in the future, this is how I would like to handle this situation." But I am very interested in your mechanical processes as well. Here's how I handled this project: Each time I got a new set of PDF files, I compared my paper pages to the pages on the screen. If there was a change in the page break, I marked it in colored pen by drawing a line across the the page and marking the appropriate new page numbers on both sides of the line. (Unfortunately I only had red and green pens, so the third set of changes to one range of pages was a little problematic! I'll be prepared next time...) I kept notes of page ranges whose page breaks had migrated, and when I had the breaks marked on the pages, I went to my Expanded, page-order-sorted index (Expanded so that each page number or page range had it's own entry record) and painstakingly changed the page numbers when necessary. What a laborious job! And not one that falls in the category of grunt work, either. Luckily these were all relatively small ranges (< 25 pages), but even that was a chore. Then I took care of the "all the pages in this range have shifted by -2" types of changes. I didn't mark those numbers on the pages, but I did keep notes of those changes, since several ranges went back and forth over the course of the two weeks. So when I checked page breaks against the *really* final files, I could verify that I really had modified the index to match the real page numbers. (I think that sounds a little vague, but I really did just make it up as I went along...!) So I'm relatively confident that I've turned in an accurate index. But I'm hoping for some brilliant ideas on how to do this more efficiently from all you creative and productive indexers out there! Thanks to all! Caroline ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 cparks@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:35:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: multiauthored work authors Hello all: In indexing a book on songwriting I've come across a number of songs written by two or more songwriters. I want to index all of the songwriters' names separately but I don't know of a standard way of doing this. Along with "Lyin' Eyes" (Henley and Frey), 155 I could write, in bibliographic style, Frey, Glenn, and Don Henley: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 Henley, Don, and Glenn Frey: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 This does the trick, but it may seem like too much to some, especially when three or more songwriters are involved, as in Campbell, Mike, Don Henley, and John David Souther, "Heart of the Matter", 154 Henley, Don, Mike Campbell, and John David Souther, "Heart of the Matter", 154 Souther, John David, Mike Campbell, and Don Henley, "Heart of the Matter", 154 On the other hand, Frey, Glenn: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 Henley, Don: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 may be misleading in that neither songwriter is a single author of the song. Back to bibliographic style, using initials for the given names of all the writers but the first, as in Frey, Glenn, and D. Henley: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 Henley, Don, and G. Frey: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 and Campbell, Mike, D. Henley, and J. D. Souther, "Heart of the Matter", 154 Henley, Don, M. Campbell, and J. D. Souther, "Heart of the Matter", 154 Souther, John David, M. Campbell, and D. Henley, "Heart of the Matter", 154 may help a little. Any comments or further ideas? Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:42:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Optimum thesaurus size In a message dated 98-08-11 09:10:51 EDT, Nell wrote: << what is the optimum number of top terms >> By "top terms," do you mean basic categories, like the 10 ways to organize the universe with the Dewey Decimal Classification or the 26 used by Library of Congress, or what? Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:52:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: multiauthored work authors In-Reply-To: <199808111736.NAA08349@mail1.bellsouth.net> It might depend on how many repeat listings you have for some of the songwriting teams, and how thick the book is. But I think I would just list the name of the song under each name separately: Jones, John [CA]: "Deep in the Heart of Manitoba," 250 Roe, Richard [CA]: "Deep in the Heart of Manitoba," 250 "Deep in the Heart of Manitoba" (Jones & Roe), 250 ...with a note at the head of the index that '[CA]' means "co-author" and to see the title entry (I would prefer '[CW]' for "co-writer," but...) This would shorten things a bit. Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Brackney |Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 12:36 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: multiauthored work authors | | |Hello all: | |In indexing a book on songwriting I've come across a number of |songs written |by two or more songwriters. I want to index all of the songwriters' names |separately but I don't know of a standard way of doing this. Along with | |"Lyin' Eyes" (Henley and Frey), 155 | |I could write, in bibliographic style, | |Frey, Glenn, and Don Henley: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 |Henley, Don, and Glenn Frey: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 | |This does the trick, but it may seem like too much to some, especially when |three or more songwriters are involved, as in | |Campbell, Mike, Don Henley, and John David Souther, "Heart of the |Matter", 154 |Henley, Don, Mike Campbell, and John David Souther, "Heart of the |Matter", 154 |Souther, John David, Mike Campbell, and Don Henley, "Heart of the |Matter", 154 | |On the other hand, | |Frey, Glenn: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 |Henley, Don: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 | |may be misleading in that neither songwriter is a single author of |the song. | |Back to bibliographic style, using initials for the given names of all the |writers but the first, as in | |Frey, Glenn, and D. Henley: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 |Henley, Don, and G. Frey: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 | |and | |Campbell, Mike, D. Henley, and J. D. Souther, "Heart of the Matter", 154 |Henley, Don, M. Campbell, and J. D. Souther, "Heart of the Matter", 154 |Souther, John David, M. Campbell, and D. Henley, "Heart of the Matter", 154 | |may help a little. | |Any comments or further ideas? | |Michael Brackney | |Brackney Indexing Service |134 Kathleen Way |Grass Valley, CA 95945 |530-272-7088 | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:57:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Neck problems I avoid the neck crick by using a 2-line speaker phone in the office. It's great for talking while typing, as in talking to service techs talking you thru a software problem, or to clients who want changes in an index, which you can minipulate on-screen while talking to them. I've also found it very handy for listening in on a phone conversation with somebody on another extension in the house where the other people do most of the talking. For instance, during my mother-in-law's long, chatty calls on weekends, where husband and daughters are also talking on the other extensions, I can quietly go on indexing, editing, or doing bookkeeping in my office while the others do most of the talking, just putting in my comments where appropriate. I keep up on all the news and don't lose an hour on the phone! [DON'T try this if you're deep into a technical index that demands undivided attention!] Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:02:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Optimum thesaurus size In a message dated 98-08-11 13:46:37 EDT, you write: << By "top terms," do you mean basic categories, like the 10 ways to organize the universe with the Dewey Decimal Classification or the 26 used by Library of Congress, or what? Diane in Kazoo >> Yes, the basic broadest categories. This thesaurus covers legislation and politics. Examples of the top terms we are using are: Education Elections Social policy Taxes We will be using the thesaurus to classify articles, databases, books and web products. I am very happy with my 800 term thesaurus, but when we ask the reporters to classify their own work we would like much shorter list. We were wondering how many terms it would take to do the job adequately without expecting every reporter to learn to index! Nell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:43:22 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing In-Reply-To: <199808042139.OAA22945@neti.saber.net> I have thoroughly enjoyed the recent discussion on language, descriptions and the influence indexing can have in supporting--even leading the way to--a greater awareness of the meaning and sub-text of words. In reading the current issue of the Indexer (Vol 21 No. 1 April 1998), on page 12, a description in the article on indexing archival photographs in the GM collection jumped out at me. Under Image A: 1912 Cadillac it states that this vehicle, a self-starter, *Allowed women to use automobiles independently, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to start the car). I somehow find this statement slightly offensive, if not a bit inaccurate. I wonder, in the early 1900's, were there no women who were strong enough to crank a car? Were there no men who were not strong enough to crank a car? I think it might have been more accurate to just say, *Made use of the car more accessible, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to start the car). This would neatly side-step the male/felamle, weaker/stronger issue altogether. What do you think? Naomi ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer, M.A. POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** ******* What would be thought of an architect who built a large house and left it without staircases for exploration? What, then, shall be said of an author or publisher who sends a book into the world without an Index? Correspondence of the N.Y. Tribune, 10/27/1860 ******************************************************************************** ********* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:04:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing In-Reply-To: <199808111847.OAA04304@camel20.mindspring.com> At 11:43 AM 8/11/98 +0100, you wrote: >In reading the current issue of the Indexer (Vol 21 No. 1 April 1998), on >page 12, a description in the article on indexing archival photographs in >the GM collection jumped out at me. Under Image A: 1912 Cadillac it states >that this vehicle, a self-starter, *Allowed women to use automobiles >independently, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to start >the car). I somehow find this statement slightly offensive, if not a bit >inaccurate. You've obviously never had to crank start a car. It's not only the physical effort of getting the thing to turn over, but also the very real danger of the crank turning backward with extreme force if the engine fails to fire. Broken thumbs, hands, wrists, and even forearms were not uncommon. I'm sure there were some men who were not well suited to the task and there were some women who were more than up to it, but overall I think it's a fair statement that crank starting was a problem for women. Dick (who once owned a 1932 crank-start Allis Chalmers farm tractor) Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:06:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing In-Reply-To: <199808111846.OAA10690@mail1.bellsouth.net> My gr-grandmother was a youngish widow in Iowa c1900. She was also a talented real estate sharpie and made a very comfortable living buying and selling small farm acreages (sometimes the same land, several times). So she bought one of the very first automobiles in Mahaska County, and I have a photo (somewhere) of her in a duster cranking the thing. She was not a small woman. :) Oh, yeah: She also had (reportedly) the first traffic accident recorded in the county -- swerved on a country lane to avoid hitting a flock of ducks and got her flivver rolled up in a barbed wire fence.... Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of J. Naomi Linzer |Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 5:43 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing | | |I have thoroughly enjoyed the recent discussion on language, descriptions |and the influence indexing can have in supporting--even leading the way |to--a greater awareness of the meaning and sub-text of words. | |In reading the current issue of the Indexer (Vol 21 No. 1 April 1998), on |page 12, a description in the article on indexing archival photographs in |the GM collection jumped out at me. Under Image A: 1912 Cadillac it states |that this vehicle, a self-starter, *Allowed women to use automobiles |independently, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to start |the car). I somehow find this statement slightly offensive, if not a bit |inaccurate. | | I wonder, in the early 1900's, were there no women who were strong enough |to crank a car? Were there no men who were not strong enough to crank a |car? I think it might have been more accurate to just say, *Made use of the |car more accessible, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to |start the car). This would neatly side-step the male/felamle, |weaker/stronger issue altogether. | |What do you think? | |Naomi | |******************************************************************* |************* |Ms. J. Naomi Linzer, M.A. |POB 1341 |Redway, CA 95560 |(707) 923-4361 |jnlinzer@saber.net |******************************************************************* |************* |******* | What would be thought of an architect who built a large house and | left it without staircases for exploration? | What, then, shall be said of an author or publisher who |sends a book | into the world without an Index? Correspondence of the N.Y. Tribune, |10/27/1860 |******************************************************************* |************* |********* | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:14:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Teresa Peterson Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing J. Naomi Linzer wrote: In reading the current issue of the Indexer (Vol 21 No. 1 April 1998), o= n > page 12, a description in the article on indexing archival photographs = in > the GM collection jumped out at me. Under Image A: 1912 Cadillac it sta= tes > that this vehicle, a self-starter, *Allowed women to use automobiles > independently, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to sta= rt > the car). I somehow find this statement slightly offensive, if not a b= it > inaccurate. Here's a quote from http://www.mi-autoweb.com/marsh/100YEARS.htm 1912: : Cadillac reduces the number of users' broken wrists by introducin= g the first electric self-starter. Also in 1912, the first white traffic lines appear= on a street in Redlands, California, but few drivers know what they meant=ADp;= several head-ons later, some people begin to catch on. ;-> Teresa Teresa Peterson Technical Writing, Editing and Indexing 206.527.7311 tmpete@aa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:48:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Dunne, April" Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing In 1912, I don't think the male/female thing was much of an issue. -----Original Message----- From: J. Naomi Linzer [mailto:jnlinzer@SABER.NET] Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 5:43 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing I have thoroughly enjoyed the recent discussion on language, descriptions and the influence indexing can have in supporting--even leading the way to--a greater awareness of the meaning and sub-text of words. In reading the current issue of the Indexer (Vol 21 No. 1 April 1998), on page 12, a description in the article on indexing archival photographs in the GM collection jumped out at me. Under Image A: 1912 Cadillac it states that this vehicle, a self-starter, *Allowed women to use automobiles independently, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to start the car). I somehow find this statement slightly offensive, if not a bit inaccurate. I wonder, in the early 1900's, were there no women who were strong enough to crank a car? Were there no men who were not strong enough to crank a car? I think it might have been more accurate to just say, *Made use of the car more accessible, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to start the car). This would neatly side-step the male/felamle, weaker/stronger issue altogether. What do you think? Naomi **************************************************************************** **** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer, M.A. POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net **************************************************************************** **** ******* What would be thought of an architect who built a large house and left it without staircases for exploration? What, then, shall be said of an author or publisher who sends a book into the world without an Index? Correspondence of the N.Y. Tribune, 10/27/1860 **************************************************************************** **** ********* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:03:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: multiauthored work authors At 12:52 PM 8/11/98 -0500, Michael K. Smith wrote: >It might depend on how many repeat listings you have for some of the >songwriting teams, and how thick the book is. But I think I would just list >the name of the song under each name separately: > >Jones, John [CA]: "Deep in the Heart of Manitoba," 250 >Roe, Richard [CA]: "Deep in the Heart of Manitoba," 250 >"Deep in the Heart of Manitoba" (Jones & Roe), 250 > >...with a note at the head of the index that '[CA]' means "co-author" and to >see the title entry (I would prefer '[CW]' for "co-writer," but...) This >would shorten things a bit. > >Michael K. Smith I like this idea, Michael. I think "[CW]" would work better than "[CA]" since the operative term is "songwriters", but since such qualifiers resemble U.S. state abbreviations it occurs to me that "[cw]" -- or "(cw)" -- might work better. I have two questions for you regarding style: why do you suggest "[CW]" instead of "(CW)"?, and is your choice of "&" instead of "and" in the song title qualifier a personal choice or is it based on any standard usage you know of? Thanks very much, Michael Brackney P.S. Any other comments, folks? Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:13:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rose Kennedy Subject: Re: Party invitation - North Carolina I am quite, quite green with envy over this opportunity to be in the presence of great, live music (especially dancing music). This is one of the few times I've regretted living in California! I hope that your celebration is a wonderful success, full of the best things in life (music, dancing, fiddles, friends). Rose Kennedy A technical writer (and occasional amateur indexer) Deborah Shaw wrote: > My friend Ted Ehrhard, fiddler extraordinaire, is moving to Brattleboro, > Vermont on 15 August. I am hosting a farewell party for him on Tuesday, 11 > August, at our formal bonfire pit. Osei, a drummer from Ghana with the > Chuck Davis dance troupe, is coming and will lead a drum circle. Many > Celtic musicians are coming, with instruments. Ted wants to try a meld of > Celtic and African music and say good-bye to all his friends in grand > style. If you are a local fan of Celtic or traditional music, you probably > own CDs by many of the musicians (Footloose, for example). > > This is the first party I have ever given. I just want a grand ceilidh. > > If you would like to come, please contact me privately for details; this > is my only post on the subject. Trust me, you can't get here without > explicit directions or a map. > > Cheers, > Deborah, who has no rain plan > Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA > shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:04:37 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: Optimum thesaurus size In-Reply-To: <902840948.21612.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In article <902840948.21612.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, Nell Benton writes >We are building a thesaurus for use by reporters. Some of our products will be >classified by top terms only, some by secondary terms and some (my job) using >tertiary terms to make a detailed index. If you mean a hierarchical information retrieval thesaurus, and not a classification scheme as Diane Worden guesses you might, it would be worth reading ANSI/NSIO Z.39.19-1993 : "Guidelines for the construction, format, and management of monolingual thesauri". Don't think of top, secondary and tertiary terms - a term is a term is a term, and you may add or remove relationships to and from it which will change its place in a hierarchy. Different depths of hierarchy will be appropriate in different places. If you are producing a printed index the approach will be different than when indexing material for on-line retrieval. >I have been asked what is the optimum number of top terms. The reporters are >all well educated good writers but they don't necessarily have training or any >interest in indexing. As you don't give any indication of the subject area, it's difficult to assess the various facets you may need to include, but think along the traditional lines of objects, materials, people, organisations, events, activities, places, times, etc. for a start. Have you looked at existing thesauri? As you just say "reporters", perhaps you are interested in general news items. I vaguely recall that the New York Times had a big thesaurus for this purpose, though I haven't seen it for a long time. [I've just had a look on the Library of Congress and British Library catalogues for this, and the nearest I can find is: Title: The Information Bank thesaurus : a guide for searching the Information Bank and for organizing, cataloguing, indexing and searching collections of information on current events Edition: 8th ed Publisher: Parsippany, N.J. : Information Bank, c1981 I think the Information Bank must be a spin-off company from the New York Times] >Also, do you know of any research that has already been done in this area? There are some references to standard texts on our WWW site (URL below). Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 181 372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex, EN2 7BQ, UK Fax: +44 181 372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk --------------- --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:36:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing At 03:04 PM 8/11/1998 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >You've obviously never had to crank start a car. It's not only the >physical effort of getting the thing to turn over, but also the very real >danger of the crank turning backward with extreme force if the engine fails >to fire. Broken thumbs, hands, wrists, and even forearms were not >uncommon. I'm sure there were some men who were not well suited to the >task and there were some women who were more than up to it, but overall I >think it's a fair statement that crank starting was a problem for women. Dick, I can attest that this is true. I am not a small woman, and quite muscular. For several years, my boyfriend (now husband) owned a crankable old MG with a lousy battery. The drill was that I cranked while he sat in the car and manipulated the starter, clutch, and gas...because I had never driven a stick shift and it just worked better for him to manage that part of it. While I never broke anything, it was damned hard to crank and I was also terrified of the "backfire" if the crank got away from me at the critical moment. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:40:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Barringer Subject: Re: thank you from a former PA resident Nancy, Thank you very much for the reply. I am guessing you are in the Chester County area. My folks are in Westchester and I grew up in the "burbs" of Philly. I too was a reference librarian and loved those excellent indexes. Now I am home with children but thought indexing work might fit our lifestyle. Jill > ---------- > From: Nancy A. Guenther[SMTP:nanguent@CHESCO.COM] > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 8:51 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: GETTING STARTED-NEED ADVICE ON COURSES > > I can't help you with prioritizing courses (I got my start informally > while > working as a reference librarian). > > On the issue of job markets it is my experience that your location is > not > signficant if you are planning to freelance. FedEx & e-mail make it > just as > easy to work for a company on the opposite coast as it is to work for > a > company in your area. I live in the suburbs of Phila and regularly > provide > indexes for publishers in California, New York, Indiana, etc. > > Nancy Guenther > nanguent@chesco.com > > >Would anyone be willing to advise me on the priority of courses to > take > >for getting started in indexing? I am looking at the USDA courses > (Basic > >and Applied Indexing) and/or Susan Holbert's video course. How much > do I > >need to get work initially? In addition, is there any source that > gives > >an indication of the job market for indexers in various cities? I > live > >in Columbus, Ohio. Thanks! > > > >Jill B. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:05:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: multiauthored work authors In-Reply-To: <199808112005.QAA05318@mail2.bellsouth.net> |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Brackney |Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 3:04 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: multiauthored work authors | | |I like this idea, Michael. I think "[CW]" would work better than "[CA]" |since the operative term is "songwriters", but since such qualifiers |resemble U.S. state abbreviations it occurs to me that "[cw]" -- or "(cw)" |-- might work better. Actually, I was thinking that -- esp in a book about popular music -- readers might leap to the wrong conclusion and assume "CW" stood for "Country & Western"! |I have two questions for you regarding style: why do you suggest "[CW]" |instead of "(CW)"?, and is your choice of "&" instead of "and" in the song |title qualifier a personal choice or is it based on any standard usage you |know of? Well, I generally use brackets when it's my own *artificial* addition; when it's something standardized and expected, like "(eds.)" for "editors", I use parentheses. Using "&" to join two authors' surnames is pretty common as a space-saver. When I have a main entry with coauthors, I use it, too: Jones, George & J.S. Bach, "Tulsa Symphonette," 210-12 I don't know, frankly, where I first saw that, or whether some editor in the long ago suggested it, but I've been doing it for a loooooong time.... :) Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: leditor@frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing Naomi asks: > > I wonder, in the early 1900's, were there no women who were strong enough > to crank a car? Were there no men who were not strong enough to crank a > car? I think it might have been more accurate to just say, *Made use of the > car more accessible, since great physical effort was no longer needed (to > start the car). This would neatly side-step the male/felamle, > weaker/stronger issue altogether. > > What do you think? > > Interesting questoin. Here's what I think. (It's not an attack on you, Naomi, but just an expression of a different viewpoint.) I think that whenever one is writing history it a big mistake to sidestep any issues that might explain why things were the way they were. The self starter was, in fact, marketed precisely on the premise that it made it possible for women to start cars on their own. And it did have precisely that effect. Thus, recasting language to reflect modern sensibilities to gender roles would, in essence, be to rewrite history. The point isn't really whether some or all women had the physical strength to to use a crank. Clearly, they did. The majority of the population lived on farms in 1912 and women on farms often had considerable physical strength because manual labor was a fact of life for them. The more important point is that social contract and sex role socialization applied in 1912 made it (for most people) a man's task to use the crank for a number of reasons other than pure physical strength. The type of clothing worn by most women in 1912 would interfere with safely cranking an engine. (That's why a man always took his suit coat off before using the crank.) There was a certain risk is using a crank since kickback could result in the breaking of an arm or the throwing of the "cranker" to the ground. In 1912, a man who exposed a woman or a child to that result would not be highly regarded by most members of either gender. Perhaps, we should ask why this was rather than pretend that this wasn't the way most people -- male or female -- thought in 1912. All this notwithstanding, Naomi is quite right that the self starter plainly benefited both genders. (Once it passed on to vehicles less expensive than the Cadillac on which it was first fitted.) While the degree to which self starters were mismarketed as a balm to male egos would be an interesting topic of historical analysis, I can only hope that such an analysis would be undertaken by a historian who would look at the past as it was rather than through a filter of modern attitudes. If were're going to rewrite the history of the self starter, we might as well rewrite Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath since it expressly takes a gender-biased view by stating that most women had the adaptability to survive the dust bowl whereas many men did not. Of course, we might lose sight of the fact that the very reason these men were too brittle to survive was precisely because the role of their gender was to serve as "providers" so that, once they could not longer serve that role, they lost all justification for their existence. But, so what. As the generation of historians now predominating in the academic community all too often said in their youth -- history is not relevant. Larry Edmonson...who has cranked automobiles and other motor vehicles and has always hated it ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:06:56 -0700 Reply-To: jlee@eskimo.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: How many indexers does it take. . .? None -- it recharges itself from the brilliance of their repartee! Jeri Lee B. Wurf wrote: > Hi, > > The quote below was forwarded to me by a friend. Having read it, I am now > wondering what indexers will say about how many indexers it takes to > change/screw in a lightbulb. As in: > > Q. How many indexers does it take to change a lightbulb? > A. > > I could not think of any great responses myself, but I'm sure others can, > and I'd love to hear them. > > > > >Since there are more than a few people reading this who are associated with > >publishing in one way or another, I take the liberty of forwarding this > >message, which I received from Irene Sloan, herself an editor par > >excellence: > > > >Q. How many editors does it take to screw in a lightbulb? > >A. Only one; but first they have to rewire the entire building. > > > >Q. How many sales directors does it take to screw in a lightbulb? > >A. (pause) I get it! This is one of those lightbulb jokes, right? > > > >Q. How many managing editors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. You were supposed to have changed that lightbulb last week! > > > >Q. How many art directors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. Does it HAVE to be a lightbulb? > > > >Q. How many copy editors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. The last time this question was asked, it involved art directors. > > Is the difference intentional? Should one or the other instance > > be changed? It seems inconsistent. > > > >Q. How many marketing directors does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. It isn't too late to make this neon instead, is it? > > > >Q. How many proofreaders does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. Proofreaders aren't supposed to change lightbulbs. They should > > just query them. > > > >Q. How many writers does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. But why do we have to CHANGE it? > > > >Q. How many cover artists does it take to change a lightbulb? > >A. Why is there...an eggbeater, I think?...sticking out of this > > light fixture? > > > >Q. How many publishers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? > >A. Three. One to screw it in, two to hold down the author. > > Barbara Wurf > Indexpert Services > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Barbara Wurf ------ bwurf@earthlink.net > and... -----/@ \ Los Angeles, Calif., USA > \ | \\ > \_____ | / \ > | \_/ \ > |~~~~~~~~\ > "Buddy" > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:35:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Schroeder Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing Naomi, Regarding the recent discussion of the GM Self-starter, there is no reason to be even slightly offended. This is a fact of history. I am a woman and the author of that article. I have been studying automotive history for eight years and the plain fact is that the self-starter gave woman wonderful independence that we had never known. There is no implication that women as a whole could not crank vehicles. As someone else pointed out, however, due to certain gender roles it was not as common for woman to try. Nowadays, we would have the freedom to attempt this, in ways that we could not in 1912. Yes, there were woman who cranked vehicles, especially in farming communities. But, cars were still expensive then and the bulk of GM cars were still being sold to those of a high economic level and those folks were extremely limited in what was "womanly" and "manly" behavior. After the self-starter on the Cadillac, women of means, could start and drive cars themselves. As this innovation filtered down to other mid-priced vehicles, everyone could enjoy the ease of use. And thus, the Auto Industry broke wide open and the market need rose geometrically. In the Indexer article, there certainly was not space to go into the history of the self-starter, but I hope that this sidepoint to the article has now been better clarified. If anyone has any questions, feel free to reply to me directly. Kim Schroeder kschroed@mail.msen.com Archive Impact ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:47:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: E-mail format apology Gunk? What gunk? I don't see any Gunk... Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:47:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: INFO: Y2K Resource Update My soon-to-be-famous Doomsday List is not yet assembled, but I just came across a couple of sites worth sharing with you: http://www.cnet.com/Content/Reports/Special/Y2K/?dd.cn http://www.cnet.com/Content/Reports/Special/Y2K/Main/?dd.cn NB: The "Y2K" is CAPITALIZED! Very fussy, these cnet people. One of these sites lists tools and resources; I downloaded a Y2K checking program from our Aussie colleagues and it is useful and "seems" inexpensive. Seems is in quotes since after a brief dialogue with the company I am still a bit unsure as to how much it really COSTS for a single user to get the program's unlocking code. Be advised that first, this program tests hardware only and second, the floppy disk which the program generates was NOT the bootable disk it was supposed to be [easily fixed by running the DOS "SYS" command or Norton Disktool]; the company said it was probably my system's fault when I sent them a complaint about this. Following is the URL from which I downloaded the program; if it fails to work you may have to go to cnet.com and download from there. http://www.simcomcity.com/files/ac2000x.exe This file is NOT a self-expanding file but an INSTALL file and runs under DOS rules. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:32:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: Re: Reader ddd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:29:51 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Organization: W W Walker Web Development Subject: email instead of ICQ for Web courses? Hi indexers, librarians and record managers! How many of you are not willing to install ICQ chat or have older PCs and don't want to upgrade to Windows 95, however you can still send and receive emails? (ICQ can be downloaded from http://www.icq.com/ for free). I am considering offering my Web indexing course via email and Web course notes with ICQ as an optional extra. This also helps me immensely as getting a time to fit everyone can be tricky at times, e.g. getting 3 continents at once to be online at once can mean early in USA, midday in Europe and night in Australia. Also people work at a time that suits them - not have to work into the evening or get up with the birds or miss the football for several weekends in a row. ICQ chats could be reserved for a 'seminar' kind of session of 2 hours or so maximum. These are still commercial but I have done one free chat for Sue Wilkerson to get people introduced to Web indexing. Now we offer US/Australia and Europe/Asia/Australia classes with possibilities of having a US/Europe/Australia class if the US people can get up real early! :) I am waiting for your replies. All the best from Western Sydney! Dwight -------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker WWWalker Web Development, Sydney, Australia http://www.wwwalker.com.au tel +61-2-98960286, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:35:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing Larry wrote: >I think that >whenever one is writing history it a big mistake to sidestep any issues >that might explain why things were the way they were. The self starter >was, in fact, marketed precisely on the premise that it made it possible >for women to start cars on their own. And it did have precisely that >effect. Thus, recasting language to reflect modern sensibilities to >gender roles would, in essence, be to rewrite history. To tie this in to another recent thread, I make this point as well in my article on gender and sexual orientation as issues in indexing history. The words gay men, lesbian, and homosexuality are all relatively recent constructions. Thus, it becomes important to attend to language used by the indexer when referring to same-gender sexual behaviors in history. In addition, persons who are now deemed lesbian or gay may very well not have thought of themselves that way, even during this century. It is important, I think, to consider this when we modern indexers apply our current sensibilities to texts that may or may not use modern referents for social behaviors. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:06:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: Cheap or nasty? Glenda Browne and I have been discussing a problem that arises when attempting to provide a useful index when there is clearly not enough money and/or time to produce a good one (but when there is not necessarily a space restriction). We saw two options: * restrict entries to the most obviously useful ones and produce as high a quality index as possible using those; or * put in as many useful entries as you can for the money/time and sacrifice perfection. Initially, we both thought that it was probably more useful to the user to have more entries and less perfection. But we also agreed that our sense of professionalism would probably make us uncomfortable. In her latest email to me she says: Have been thinking whether it is better to have a small amount of quality or a lot that's not so great. I like to think that a bit of quality is better, because you would get all of the most important references, and would only miss secondary ones. The quality arrangement of the whole index would contribute to optimal access to all the bits. If you put in heaps without such care, users might miss the key references, and might be put off by the whole index. Thats what I like to think. In practice I think if time was short users might be best served by a sloppily organised index with a few more references. Depends on the exact case. But for our self-respect I think we have to put the quality of our work before user's satisfaction. (Is that heresy?) and fight for enough time and money for every index. and later she says My first thought was actually that quality was best, I then thought that maybe bulk was worth some sacrifice, and then I thought that an indexer's pride couldn't let them do that, even if it would be more useful. What does the group think? Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 06:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Hudson Subject: index files by e-mail A couple of months back I reported that British publishers didn't seem to= be very keen on e-mail and that I'd never been asked to submit an index this way. At a Society of Indexers meeting shortly afterwards several people said that they had sent indexes by e-mail. And yesterday I sent m= y first index (to a travel guide) by e-mail (at the publisher's request) an= d it seems to have worked. So Britain is catching up! ANN HUDSON ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:48:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? When time is an issue, I prefer a shorter index with a few quality terms that are well organized. My working technique actually leads to that choice naturally. When I start on an index I try to grasp the whole concept and organize it into broad groups. Only after I have a broad mental outline do I start indexing and throwing in detail. The structure usually stays basically the same throughout the project. If I get caught in a time pinch, I'm not ashamed to turn in whatever I have. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:56:16 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: index files by e-mail Dear Ann Yes, I've sent quite a few indexes by e-mail now, usually when the work is urgent (but they still want a hard copy and disk!). Kim (Kim Harris) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:36:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: multiauthored work authors Go for the single-name entries for each of the authors. I'm ASSUMING that there is an entry for: "Lyin' Eyes" (Frey & Henley), 155 Minimum of space -- maximum information. Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:30 -0400 Reply-To: Sam Andrusko Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing In-Reply-To: <199808112329.TAA144420@rs8.loc.gov> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Kim Schroeder wrote: > GM cars were still being sold to those of a high economic level and > those folks were extremely limited in what was "womanly" and "manly" > behavior. This reminds me of a bit of social history trivia: at one time wristwatches and cigarettes were supposed to be used "only" by women (and of course ladies did not smoke to begin with); men used pocket watches and smoked cigars or pipes. Vaguely recall reading once that the Chicago Tribune published an editorial attacking Valentino because he started wearing a wristwatch which of course was a sign of effeminancy, the collapse of civilization, the decline of morals, the degeneracy of the times, etc., etc. And of course in the late teens-20's (?) the scandal of women wearing men's clothes (pants and shirts)--have always thought it odd that women can wear "men's" clothes, but generally speaking men cannot run around in "women's" clothes (Mardi Gras, Halloween, etc. excepted). Assume it has something to do with those in an "inferior" social class position "aping their betters" and all that whereas those in a "superior" class position cannot "demean" themselves that way or they face losing their power, position, etc. But of course in other parts of the world, it is the opposite: men of position wear robe-like "dresses" whereas as the peasants (men and women) wear pants-like clothing. Such a strange world! Dick, Sonsie, Larry, Michael, and others, have really enjoyed reading about cranking cars, real estate great-grandmoms (hmmm, 1st traffic accident? dare one say it?? ), etc. Very enjoyable! Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:21:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Optimum thesaurus size Nell, I don't know that there is an optimum size for a whole thesaurus, but certainly it's reasonable to limit the "top" broadest categories 15-20. In your example, I think Elections would be a secondary category under Government. Other top categories might be Politics, International Law, Business and Finance, Economics, Education, Science, Technology, Humanities, Social Work, etc. Maybe they're too academic for reporting purposes, but fewer than two dozen categories makes subdividing them twice more ever more specific. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:17:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Greek history/philosophy question In-Reply-To: <199808120410.XAA18513@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Will someone please tell me if the group referenced by Socrates in the >^Apology^ as "the Thirty" (for whom he refused to collude in the execution >of an innocent man) is the same as the Thirty Tyrants, two members of whom >were Plato's relatives? > Yes. In Terry Irwin's book (Irwin is an expert on Socrates, Plato and Aristotle), _Classical Thought_, he gives "the Thirty" in several places (and "Thirty Tyrants" in one place) and indexes it as "Thirty Tyrants (404-403 B.C.)." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:37:07 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Luanne Carabelos Subject: HTML Indexer I recently saw a posting for HTML Indexer on another listserv. The program boasts the ability to "generate" an back-of-the-book style index using and inserting HTML tags to create indexes for the Web. The whole process "appears" to be somewhat automated. Has anyone heard of this product (due for release in Sept. 98)? If you have, what are your thoughts? If you haven't heard of this product, take a look at the FAQ page: http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/FAQ.htm Luanne Carabelos Technical Writer/Editor/Indexer ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ Luanne Carabelos Technical Writing ~~ ~~ Design IT Media Services Editing ~~ ~~ 11766 W. Chenango Dr. #11 Indexing ~~ ~~ Morrison, CO 80465 Web Development ~~ ~~ (303) 904-2307 Multimedia ~~ ~~ astro@privatei.com Marketing Communicatio ns ~~ ~~ http://www2.privatei.com/~astro ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:50:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Optimum thesaurus size Nell, You might want to contact the Newspaper Librarians Division of the Special Libraries Association. This is a group that would use and develop such thesaurus. The number for SLA Headquaters is 202 234-4700 and they can direct you to the Chair of the Newspaper Division. ROberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 10:21 AM 8/12/98 EDT, you wrote: >Nell, > >I don't know that there is an optimum size for a whole thesaurus, but >certainly it's reasonable to limit the "top" broadest categories 15-20. In >your example, I think Elections would be a secondary category under >Government. Other top categories might be Politics, International Law, >Business and Finance, Economics, Education, Science, Technology, Humanities, >Social Work, etc. Maybe they're too academic for reporting purposes, but fewer >than two dozen categories makes subdividing them twice more ever more >specific. > Diane in Kazoo > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:23:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing In-Reply-To: <199808120634.CAA28983@ulster.net> >I think, to consider this when we modern indexers apply our current >sensibilities to texts that may or may not use modern referents for social >behaviors. > True - but don't we need to consider that it is this same modern population with its modern referents that are gonna be using the index in many cases. And that's where that audience will look, if we're talking indexes outside of academia, anyway. -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:05:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KGarcia549@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Neck problems Can't read your message ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:08:55 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Re: email instead of ICQ for Web courses? That sounds like a good plan Dwight. I like the flexibility. Marsha Lofthouse TargetSmart! The Power of Smart Business http://www.targetsmart.com mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight Walker [SMTP:dwight@SPEAKEASY.ORG] > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 9:30 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: email instead of ICQ for Web courses? > > Hi indexers, librarians and record managers! > > How many of you are not willing to install ICQ chat or have older PCs > and don't want to upgrade to Windows 95, however you can still send and > receive emails? (ICQ can be downloaded from http://www.icq.com/ for > free). > > I am considering offering my Web indexing course via email and Web > course notes with ICQ as an optional extra. > > This also helps me immensely as getting a time to fit everyone can be > tricky at times, e.g. getting 3 continents at once to be online at once > can mean early in USA, midday in Europe and night in Australia. > > Also people work at a time that suits them - not have to work into the > evening or get up with the birds or miss the football for several > weekends in a row. > > ICQ chats could be reserved for a 'seminar' kind of session of 2 hours > or so maximum. These are still commercial but I have done one free chat > for Sue Wilkerson to get people introduced to Web indexing. > > Now we offer US/Australia and Europe/Asia/Australia classes with > possibilities of having a US/Europe/Australia class if the US people can > get up real early! :) > > I am waiting for your replies. > > All the best from Western Sydney! > > Dwight > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Dwight Walker > WWWalker Web Development, Sydney, Australia > http://www.wwwalker.com.au > tel +61-2-98960286, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 > ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:52:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Speed-reading In a message dated 98-08-11 04:12:59 EDT, you write: << Has anyone tried a speed-reading course (a course, not what comes naturally) to improve productivty? (NO, I'm not thinking of doing it; it's just that someone broke a record in NY yesterday). Kim >> Kim, I tried the course offered through the USDF Graduate School Independent Study Center. It comes with a manual containing practice reading material and a computer program. The program had not only timed reading exercises, but also exercises intended to broaden your visual field and to teach the skill of reading phrases as a whole rather than one word at a time. I stuck with it most of the way through, and found that I *hate* speed reading and the course couldn't talk me out of that view. (a) I am a perfectionist so I'm always fighting the feeling that I might be missing something. (b) My science/medical education often required reading every single word for full comprehension. I also am a "study it once" person, stopping frequently to review and pound it into my head. I know some people read material over quickly several times to learn it thoroughly. (c) When I read for pleasure, I want to take my time to enjoy a well written book. After all,a (good) writer has taken a lot of effort to phrase the text to express his/her ideas. It seems disrespectful to skim over the high points. (I just can't stand to read badly *written* books, no matter how useful the info. or interesting the story. I'm always criticising the inept sentences in the back of my mind.) This didn't exactly answer your question. I am sure this course would be excellent for some people. I just felt uncomfortable with working so hard at something I usually enjoy. Perhaps I just did not stick with it long enough to become comfortable with the new style. And I may give it another try yet! So much for the psychological implications of speed reading... Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:18:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: HTML Indexer Luanne, I sent an e-mail to David Brown, the developer of the software and the sender of that post. I had some questions as to how it might help me in a project I'm working on. It sounds like it works this way (obviously he's the one to ask, though): if you have a set of, say 30 html files, for which you need to create indexed links, you'd define that set of files and the software would check each and assign a default index entry (based on what, I'm not sure, maybe the page title). The indexer would then edit these entries as necessary to reflect what's really in the files. Then the software would create the b-o-b style index from these. The point seems to be to avoid creating the links by hand with your html editor software. He says that once you've assigned entries, you can view the list of these existing entries as your assigning them to new files. He seemed willing to explain how the product works (though it's still under development) so I'd recommend contacting him at the address he gave in his post. He has a b-o-b style index on his site, which I assume is the type created by HTML Indexer. Anne Day ------------ Luanne Carabelos wrote: I recently saw a posting for HTML Indexer on another listserv. The program boasts the ability to "generate" an back-of-the-book style index using and inserting HTML tags to create indexes for the Web. The whole process "appears" to be somewhat automated. Has anyone heard of this product (due for release in Sept. 98)? If you have, what are your thoughts? If you haven't heard of this product, take a look at the FAQ page: http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/FAQ.htm Luanne Carabelos Technical Writer/Editor/Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:31:55 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: HTML Indexer Luanne Carabelos wrote: > > I recently saw a posting for HTML Indexer on [the TECHWR-L] listserv. > The program boasts the ability to "generate" an back-of-the-book > style index using and inserting HTML tags to create indexes for > the Web. The whole process "appears" to be somewhat automated. > > Has anyone heard of this product (due for release in Sept. 98)? > If you have, what are your thoughts? > > If you haven't heard of this product, take a look at the FAQ page: > > http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/FAQ.htm > As the developer of HTML Indexer(tm), I'd like to elaborate on a few of the points in Ms. Carabelos' message. OUTPUT: HTML Indexer does generate a "back of the book"-style index. It's an HTML file with an alphabetized list of links to the files you include in your index project, and to the named anchors within those files. The output file includes navigation links that point into the list of entries (so you don't have to scroll to find the R's, for example). INPUT: Once you specify the files you want to include in your index project, HTML Indexer scans those files for potential targets. In HTML, any file or named anchor can be the target of a hypertext link, so HTML Indexer lists them for you. Each target *can* have associated text, too--if it does, HTML Indexer includes that text in the index preview. This text is really a "freebie"--it's there, it helps you identify the target, and sometimes it makes a good index entry. But we don't expect or encourage anyone to stop with these default entries, unless it makes sense to do so. USAGE MODEL: Using HTML Indexer, you can see all the targets (files and named anchors) in your project, and all the index entries. As an indexer, you evaluate the content of the HTML files to determine the best index entries. You select targets, and add (or edit) index entries. You exclude targets that don't require entries. You use your HTML editor to add anchors to source files that need entries but have no appropriate targets (or simply apply the index entries at the file level). Sometimes you accept a default entry or two. :-) You add or remove files as the project matures, creating entries for them and adjusting existing entries to maintain the quality and consistency of the overall index. In other words, you focus your energy on creating the best index possible. HTML Indexer helps you format the output, constructs all the navigation links, and guarantees that all the links work. PURPOSE: I decided to produce this tool because I've never found an easy way to create and maintain a comprehensive, reproducible index for the sets of HTML files (web sites, internal docs, and the like) for which I am responsible. I was tired of having to "re-create the wheel" every time I started a new project; of having no way to view and edit all my index entries at once, or to view subsets of index entries to ensure consistency of treatment; and of having to check every URL in an existing index when files were added or deleted or when the directory structure was altered. So I've designed HTML Indexer to handle all of that for me. As it nears completion, I'm convinced that this is a tool that other professional indexers, who provide high-quality access to HTML files, will want to use. I'm working hard to make the UI as intuitive as I can; to provide online assistance with common tasks and answers to common questions about indexing HTML files; and to create a printed tutorial that explains what I think are the most important features of the program. CONCLUSION: If I may paraphrase Ms. Carabelos' message, "read the information at http://www.brown-inc.com/indexer/FAQ.htm, and tell me what you think." I'll be happy to answer your questions. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:13:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? At 08:48 AM 8/12/98 EDT, Nell Benton wrote: >When time is an issue, I prefer a shorter index with a few quality terms that >are well organized. > >My working technique actually leads to that choice naturally. When I start on >an index I try to grasp the whole concept and organize it into broad groups. >Only after I have a broad mental outline do I start indexing and throwing in >detail. The structure usually stays basically the same throughout the project. >If I get caught in a time pinch, I'm not ashamed to turn in whatever I have. > >Nell Interesting, Nell: sounds like you index by making at least two passes through your material, correct? Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:13:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: multiauthored work authors Dear Michael K. Smith: Despite liking your suggestion of using a qualifier like "[cw]" to distinguish co-authors (songwriters in this case) from sole authors, I've ended up not using it. In her review of my index the author of the book made no objection to my original format Frey, Glenn: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 Henley, Don: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 even though, as I said in my original post, it "may be misleading in that neither songwriter is . . . [the sole] author of the song". Clearly, after all, although this format parallels the standard single author--book title format, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person indexed is the sole author. Trying to make co-authorship crystal clear by adding the qualifier (or by adding the other co-authors in bibliographic style) muddies other waters in that it requires different main headings for writers as sole authors and for the same writers as co-authors and thereby prevents the gathering of everything pertaining to one writer under a single main heading, as in Henley, Don: "Hotel California", 12 (correct in this example if DH is the sole Henley, Don [cw]: "Lyin' Eyes", 155 \ author of HC) Perhaps the qualifier could be added to the song title instead of the songwriter's name, but that looks more complicated to me. Better, equivocal simplicity I think! Thanks again, Michael, for thinking about this with me, and for your comments on brackets and ampersands. I used '"Lyin' Eyes" (Henley & Frey), 155' instead of '"Lyin' Eyes" (Henley and Frey), 155'. All the best, Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:22:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? Michael, Yes, I look at it twice. I am a text marker and I like to have a good grasp before I start typing! Nell n a message dated 98-08-12 13:15:30 EDT, you write: << >When time is an issue, I prefer a shorter index with a few quality terms that >are well organized. > >My working technique actually leads to that choice naturally. When I start on >an index I try to grasp the whole concept and organize it into broad groups. >Only after I have a broad mental outline do I start indexing and throwing in >detail. The structure usually stays basically the same throughout the project. >If I get caught in a time pinch, I'm not ashamed to turn in whatever I have. > >Nell Interesting, Nell: sounds like you index by making at least two passes through your material, correct? Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:24:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shelby Coleman Subject: Re: multiauthored work authors I might suggest (in the future) calling ASCAP. Los Angeles phone number is (213) 883-1000. They have a completely indexed song file and probably have a protocol. Just an idea. (ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers and Publishers) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Cheap or nasty? I seem to recall someone on the list a while back saying something like: "Cheap, fast, good - pick any two". I liked the idea and am sorry I didn'= t copy it accurately. Can the perpetrator please identify him/herself? = Sue ------------------------------------------------------------- Sue Lightfoot =AD Indexing, Proofreading Tremorva, Talland Hill, Polperro, Cornwall PL13 2RZ, England Tel/Fax: 01503 273006 Email: SLightfoot@compuserve.com ------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:38:31 -0600 Reply-To: aelser@uswest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Art Elser Organization: U S WEST Communications Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? Cheap, fast, good. Pick two. That's been a long-standing dictum in the technical writing business for a long time. I'm sure it's been around lots of other businesses too, but it sure applies in trying to get a written product out the door. art elser ================================================================== Art Elser (303) 965-4825 aelser@uswest.com Information Developer, U S WEST There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. Illusions, Richard Bach =================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:58:54 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? Art Elser wrote: > > Cheap, fast, good. Pick two. I'm having trouble picturing the "cheap and good" combination. How would that work? :) --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:28:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Wanted: cookbook editors and indexers Amy Schneider has asked me to forward the following message to the list. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* Hello, all -- One of my clients asked me to pass this on, as she recently moved to a ne= w division at Penguin Putnam, from fiction to trade books, and needs to broaden her freelance pool. She said she didn't mind me telling everyone= that the pay is on the low side, but I've found that Lara's projects are nice little (<500 mspp) projects on interesting subjects that fit in nicely between the large, dry textbooks that provide the bulk of my bread= and butter. Lara is also a pleasure to work with, and Putnam has been averaging about 3 weeks from invoice to payment. Here's Lara's request -- contact information is below. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I need copyeditors! Specifically, I need good, experienced cookbook copyeditors. I am also seeking a few exceptional indexers: Nearly every title I now d= o will have an index. I need more than the one person I used for my previous position. It would be wonderful if you could put the word out with your connections. I am open to all qualified candidates! If anyone wants to E-mail me his or her resume, feel free to give them my E-mail address or they can also use the good old-fashioned mail-by-hand method. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D You can reach Lara at: Lara Robbins Managing Editor Perigee & HPBooks 375 Hudson Street, 5th Floor New York, NY 10014 LRobbins@penguinputnam.com Best, Amy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Amy J. Schneider Words That Work! ajschn@ptnt.net Wautoma, WI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:01:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debbie Olson Subject: Newspaper Indexing-Reply Regarding newspaper indexing projects, I am currently working on indexing my personal newspaper clipping file. There are 2+ years of clippings from local newspapers (approximately 500 articles per year) arranged chronologically. As I only began clipping midway through the first year, I have spent a lot of time reading microfilm and printing copies of articles for those months missed or only sporadically covered. All articles clipped are local stories written by local reporters. I began planning this project in January and started working on it in February. I also did some research on newspaper indexing as I have not had experience indexing this format. So far I have found that the time taken in developing objectives and defining the scope of the project has really helped to keep me focused. Also, before I started indexing, I spent a lot of time collecting terms from general and subject specific thesauri as well as local sources. Although I am continually adding new terms to the list, I have a better sense of the hierarchical relationships between terms and a better understanding of the subjects covered. I think this introduced consistency to the index at a much earlier point too. I would also like to join any discussions regarding newspaper indexing, but don't know if there is, or ever has been, a formal newspaper indexing SIG under ASI. If there is not enough interest in continuing a discussion on the list, I would be interested in discussing this topic off the list. Thanks, Debbie Olson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:53:26 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? I wish I had this trouble. All but one of the indexes I have written would fall into the cheap and good category. :( Nick > > Art Elser wrote: > > > > Cheap, fast, good. Pick two. > > I'm having trouble picturing the "cheap and good" combination. > How would that work? :) > > --David > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:56:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Outlook security My apologies for sending my neck problem message in HTML. Many, if not all of you, got the message along with a lot of code. I've sent this message in text only. I hope that solves the problem. Recently there has been discussion of a newly discovered bug in Microsoft Outlook 98 and Outlook Express. A patch was issued but a new wrinkle in the bug has since been discovered. The latest patch was updated August 11 and is available at www.microsoft.com/security/ Linda Cardella Cournoyer Beloeil, Quebec (where it is thankfully cool today) cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:10:05 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? Nicholas W. Koenig wrote: > > I wish I had this trouble. All but one > of the indexes I have written would fall into > the cheap and good category. :( Ah. I see your point! --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:37:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Wanted: cookbook editors and indexers In-Reply-To: <199808121936.MAA25042@decibel.electriciti.com> Lara: I understand that you are seeking indexers. I have been the freelance indexer for a San Diego-based textbook publisher for 15 years. I could send you an rtf file of a few pages of samples. I work in Cindex and can provide e-mailed attachments ready for import into Quark XPress. I am bright, an avid cook and cookbook purchaser. I USE indexes. I don't have a vita, as I assume something so often compiled by commercial services really so often has little of substance. Titles I have worked on include (early): _Evaluation and Treatment of Swallowing Disorders_ (Logemann, 1983) [no pun intended: the book that established what has become a medical subspeciality] recent: _Speech Sciences_ (Kent, 1997). I know what a deadline is and am a team worker. Please let me know how I can better tell you about myself and if I can send you samples. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:38:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Wanted: cookbook editors and indexers In-Reply-To: <199808121936.MAA25042@decibel.electriciti.com> AAAAAAAAAArgh! Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:37:30 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Kells Subject: Re: Cheap or nasty? In-Reply-To: <199808120810.EAA13764@camel9.mindspring.com> Michael brings up an issue I'm sure we all struggle with in this business. I personally give my client the choice. I see each project that has less-than-ideal conditions as a chance to educate clients about indexing. I explain that this project's time line or the rate won't allow me to work my usual magic in the usual way (of course, I don't use those words '-) ). We talk about which they would rather have. I usually have to give examples (since few really, truly understand what indexing is and how one goes about writing indexes), and I always include an example of what the index could look like if given more time or higher rates. I then offer my professional opinion about the project, and leave the final decision up to them. Sometimes they actually re-evaluate and decide they can find more time or more money for me to write the most useful index. Usually they make a decision for that project and say they'll find more time or more money "next time". How do others handle this situation? -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari Kells I n d e x W e s t indexwest@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~indexwest/ P.O. Box 2748 Vashon Island, WA 98070 206-567-5696 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- At 06:06 PM 8/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >Glenda Browne and I have been discussing a problem that arises when >attempting to provide a useful index when there is clearly not enough money >and/or time to produce a good one (but when there is not necessarily a space >restriction). We saw two options: > >* restrict entries to the most obviously useful ones and produce as high a >quality index as possible using those; or > >* put in as many useful entries as you can for the money/time and sacrifice >perfection. > >Initially, we both thought that it was probably more useful to the user to >have more entries and less perfection. But we also agreed that our sense of >professionalism would probably make us uncomfortable. > >In her latest email to me she says: > > > >Have been thinking whether it is better to have a small amount of quality or >a lot that's not so great. I like to think that a bit of quality is better, >because you would get all of the most important references, and would only >miss secondary ones. The quality arrangement of the whole index would >contribute to optimal access to all the bits. If you put in heaps without >such care, users might miss the key references, and might be put off by the >whole index. > >Thats what I like to think. In practice I think if time was short users >might be best served by a sloppily organised index with a few more >references. Depends on the exact case. But for our self-respect I think we >have to put the quality of our work before user's satisfaction. (Is that >heresy?) and fight for enough time and money for every index. > > > >and later she says > > > >My first thought was actually that quality was best, I then thought that >maybe bulk was worth some sacrifice, and then I thought that an indexer's >pride couldn't let them do that, even if it would be more useful. > > > >What does the group think? > >Michael Wyatt >Keyword Editorial Services >22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 >Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:06:11 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Organization: W W Walker Web Development Subject: Mac ICQ installation tips - Stuffit! Hi To install ICQ on a Mac you need to have Stuffit (freeware). You have to get it from a friend, shop or user group. You cannot download it over the Internet. Once you have this you can install the file you download from http://www.icq.com/. I have 1 Mac user at present doing my ICQ version of the Web indexing course. They are using an LCIII. He found a copy of Stuffit, downloaded ICQ, registered and we have swapped messages. First class this Saturday. Later Macs I believe have Stuffit as part of the operating system. Netscape 2.0 and higher has Stuffit thrown in too. I have a Mac expert in Sydney I can refer curly Mac questions to, so fire away, I am ready for you now!!! Bring on the Apples! Dwight -- -------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker WWWalker Web Development, Sydney, Australia http://www.wwwalker.com.au tel +61-2-98960286, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: HMCMURRA@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather Subject: Re: email instead of ICQ for Web courses? Dwight Walker wrote: > > Hi indexers, librarians and record managers! > > How many of you are not willing to install ICQ chat or have older PCs > and don't want to upgrade to Windows 95, however you can still send and > receive emails? (ICQ can be downloaded from http://www.icq.com/ for > free). > > I am considering offering my Web indexing course via email and Web > course notes with ICQ as an optional extra. > > This also helps me immensely as getting a time to fit everyone can be > tricky at times, e.g. getting 3 continents at once to be online at once > can mean early in USA, midday in Europe and night in Australia. > > Also people work at a time that suits them - not have to work into the > evening or get up with the birds or miss the football for several > weekends in a row. > > ICQ chats could be reserved for a 'seminar' kind of session of 2 hours > or so maximum. These are still commercial but I have done one free chat > for Sue Wilkerson to get people introduced to Web indexing. > > Now we offer US/Australia and Europe/Asia/Australia classes with > possibilities of having a US/Europe/Australia class if the US people can > get up real early! :) > > I am waiting for your replies. > > All the best from Western Sydney! > > Dwight > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Dwight Walker > WWWalker Web Development, Sydney, Australia > http://www.wwwalker.com.au > tel +61-2-98960286, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 > ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) Dwight, Hi, would you send me info. about your indexing class, and the price? thanks, Heather McMurray ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:16:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: language, descriptions and indexing In-Reply-To: <199808121504.IAA24799@pacific.net> I wrote: >>I think, to consider this when we modern indexers apply our current >>sensibilities to texts that may or may not use modern referents for social >>behaviors. Barry wrote: >True - but don't we need to consider that it is this same modern population >with its modern referents that are gonna be using the index in many cases. >And that's where that audience will look, if we're talking indexes outside >of academia, anyway. This is where cross-referencing comes in. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:27:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Wanted: cookbook editors and indexers In-Reply-To: <199808122140.RAA19904@mail4.bellsouth.net> That's actually a pretty nice "cold-call" letter, Pam... :) Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Pam Rider |Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 4:37 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: Wanted: cookbook editors and indexers | | |Lara: | |I understand that you are seeking indexers. I have been the freelance |indexer for a San Diego-based textbook publisher for 15 years. | |I could send you an rtf file of a few pages of samples. I work in Cindex |and can provide e-mailed attachments ready for import into Quark XPress. | |I am bright, an avid cook and cookbook purchaser. I USE indexes. | |I don't have a vita, as I assume something so often compiled by commercial |services really so often has little of substance. | |Titles I have worked on include (early): _Evaluation and Treatment of |Swallowing Disorders_ (Logemann, 1983) [no pun intended: the book that |established what has become a medical subspeciality] | |recent: |_Speech Sciences_ (Kent, 1997). | |I know what a deadline is and am a team worker. | |Please let me know how I can better tell you about myself and if I can send |you samples. |Pam Rider |Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth |prider@electriciti.com |prider@tsktsk.com | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:47:06 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: Wanted: cookbook editors and indexers Michael K. Smith wrote: > > That's actually a pretty nice "cold-call" letter, Pam... :) > (copy of Pam's message snipped) I don't think you should have reposted her message, Michael, since she was obviously embarrassed that it was sent out to the index-l list the first time. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:23:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Mac ICQ installation tips - Stuffit! This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC69B.FB994B80 Content-Type: text/plain Dwight, I just went to the ICQ website... is it the "beta preview" version for Mac that I need? It says that this "time-limited free beta preview version" may not include some features of other versions of the software. Do you know if this is the version your other Mac-user is using? If you don't know, I can contact him directly at the address you gave me. I don't see any other version available for the Mac. Also, just to clarify, I do need ICQ even though I'll be taking the e-mail version of the course, right? If not, I guess this is all unnecessary... Anne > ---------- > From: Dwight Walker > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:06 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Mac ICQ installation tips - Stuffit! > > Hi > > To install ICQ on a Mac you need to have Stuffit (freeware). You have > to > get it from a friend, shop or user group. You cannot download it over > the Internet. > > Once you have this you can install the file you download from > http://www.icq.com/. > > I have 1 Mac user at present doing my ICQ version of the Web indexing > course. They are using an LCIII. He found a copy of Stuffit, > downloaded > ICQ, registered and we have swapped messages. First class this > Saturday. > > Later Macs I believe have Stuffit as part of the operating system. > Netscape 2.0 and higher has Stuffit thrown in too. > > I have a Mac expert in Sydney I can refer curly Mac questions to, so > fire away, I am ready for you now!!! Bring on the Apples! > > Dwight > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------- > Dwight Walker > WWWalker Web Development, Sydney, Australia > http://www.wwwalker.com.au > tel +61-2-98960286, mob 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 > ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) > ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC69B.FB994B80 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dwight,

I just went to the ICQ = website... is it the "beta preview" version for Mac that I = need? It says that this "time-limited free beta preview = version" may not include some features of other versions of the = software. Do you know if this is the version your other Mac-user is = using? If you don't know, I can contact him directly at the address you = gave me. I don't see any other version available for the = Mac.


Also, just to clarify, I do = need ICQ even though I'll be taking the e-mail version of the course, = right? If not, I guess this is all unnecessary...


Anne

    ----------
    From:   Dwight Walker
    Reply To: =       Indexer's = Discussion Group
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:06 PM
    To:     = Multiple recipients of list = INDEX-L
    Subject: =        Mac = ICQ installation tips - Stuffit!

    Hi

    To install ICQ on a Mac you need to = have Stuffit (freeware). You have to
    get it from a friend, shop or user = group. You cannot download it over
    the Internet. <sigh>

    Once you have this you can install = the file you download from
    http://www.icq.com/.

    I have 1 Mac user at present doing my = ICQ version of the Web indexing
    course. They are using an LCIII. He = found a copy of Stuffit, downloaded
    ICQ, registered and we have swapped = messages. First class this Saturday.

    Later Macs I believe have Stuffit as = part of the operating system.
    Netscape 2.0 and higher has Stuffit = thrown in too.

    I have a Mac expert in Sydney I can = refer curly Mac questions to, so
    fire away, I am ready for you now!!! = Bring on the Apples!

    Dwight

    --
    --------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
    Dwight Walker
    WWWalker Web Development, Sydney, = Australia
    http://www.wwwalker.com.au
    tel +61-2-98960286, mob 0412-405727, = fax +61-2-97772058
    ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker = (www.mirabilis.com)

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDC69B.FB994B80-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:34:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Hill Subject: ASIS Annual Meeting, October 24-29, Pittsburgh ASIS 1998 Annual Meeting October 24-30, 1998 Pittsburgh Hilton, Pittsburgh, PA For complete conference description, schedule and registration information, see , email meetings@asis.org, call (301) 495-0900, or write to the address below. Information and knowledge are rapidly becoming available to anyone, located anywhere, at any time. Information science has provided many of the key elements in making global information accessible to those who need it. The ASIS 1998 Annual meeting will examine information access and what it means in a global information economy. * Featured Sessions * HERBERT A. SIMON. Recipient of the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences, the National Medal of Science; the A.M. Turing Award of the Association for Computing Machinery (with Allen Newell)... recognized as part-founder of Artificial Intelligence, of *cognitive science and of computer science. HAL R. VARIAN, Dean of the School of Information Management and Systems at the University of California at Berkeley; also Professor in the Haas School of Business & the Department of Economics. PERSPECTIVES ON UNIVERSAL SERVICE: MYTHS, REALTIES, AND MADNESS. Charles McClure, John Carlo Bertot, Jean-Claude Burgelman (invited), Andrew Magpantay, Milton Mueller and others. SAMPLE TOPICS: * New Interfaces for Information Visualization * UNICODE: Standards, Implementation Issues, & Future Directions * Using the Web for Global Business Intelligence * Designing Discipline-Oriented Information Systems * Classificatory Structures: Applications & Integration * Intellectual Property * Digital Libraries in the K-12 Environment * Retrieval of non-Textual Documents * The Ethics of Access: Global Perspectives * Knowledge Discovery in Databases -- Tools & Techniques for Collaboration * User Modeling Research & IR Systems Design * Information Retrieval Technology * Organizing Images/Visuo-Spatial Data for Retrieval: From Indexing to Metadata * Web Effects on Global Economies * Electronic Scholarship * International Classification and Subject Analysis Research * Web Searching * Economics of Web Link Collections * Cross Language Applications & Large Scale Vocabularies * Evaluating Services * Accessing Full-text: Integrating Electronic Resources * Social and Organizational Informatics Pre Conference Seminars (All courses 9-5 unless specified. Separate registration required.) Saturday, October 24 * Finding the Right Stuff: Using and Evaluating Internet Search Engines (Half Day, 9:00am - 1:00pm) * Vocabulary Management and Thesaurus Development Introduction to Dynamic HTML (DHTML)Part 1: JavaScript (Presented in cooperation with the University of Pittsburgh.) Sunday, October 25 * Introduction to Dynamic HTML (DHTML) Part 2: Cascading Style Sheets (Presented in cooperation with the University of Pittsburgh.) * Delivering Databases via the World Wide Web * Introduction to Image Databases * Digital Libraries: Computer Concepts & Technologies for Managing Library Collections * Building the Virtual "Intranet" Knowledge Center * The Role of Information Management In Knowledge Management - Stimulating Creativity and Innovation Through Information. * Statistics for Practitioners and Readers of Research: A Practical Update (Half day, 9:00am - Noon) * 9th Classification Research Workshop ( 8:30 am - 5:00 pm) Richard Hill Executive Director American Society for Information Science 8720 Georgia Avenue, Suite 501 Silver Spring, MD 20910 http://www.asis.org rhill@asis.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:07:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: chat: Re: Wanted: cookbook editors and indexers In a message dated 98-08-13 08:48:05 EDT, you write: << Michael K. Smith wrote: > > That's actually a pretty nice "cold-call" letter, Pam... :) > (copy of Pam's message snipped) I don't think you should have reposted her message, Michael, since she was obviously embarrassed >> I think it is OK to reassure a friend. We all make mistakes. Kindness is never wasted. Micki Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 20:07:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dennis Lastique Subject: Indexers' Referral Network Greetings! If you would like help getting your next indexing assignment, check out http://jump.to/referrals ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:01:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network In-Reply-To: <199808140114.VAA21762@camel20.mindspring.com> At 08:07 PM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > >If you would like help getting your next indexing assignment, check out > The help is not free -- these guys want a cut from any assignments you get through them. Therefore, this is a commercial advertisement and inappropriate for this list. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:25:16 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Timothy Griffin Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! In a message dated 8/14/98 1:59:52 AM, you wrote: <> Ah. Thanks for letting us know, and save us precious time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:19:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Food words Hello everyone, All the talk lately about being PC and all that has been interesting; I agree with Victoria that ultimately what we are really concerned with is good cross-referencing. But now on to the topic of this post: I just got a most interesting book by Jay Jacobs (a food critic for Gourmet magazine--a "hired belly" as he puts it!). The Eaten Word: The Language of Food, The Food in Our Language is just great! Both a serious and light-hearted history of naming/labeling food and the dishes/recipes made from all the strange and not so strange ingredients, this is a great read for the food-minded indexer. The first chapter is aptly titled, "Wording Our Eats." This sort of book gives us a sense of how certain names/words come to be used for different foods, but I also see it as presenting something more: it shows how language and societies evolve together. I think indexers always need to be aware of that evolution, because it gives a broader scope to our work and allows us to see beyond the current trends in language and naming. Well, now I am going to pull back from my lectern and relax with Jacobs' book for a day before the next book to index arrives this afternoon. After redoing an author-generated index for a 500-page double-column book, I need a break big time. That was some project, let me tell you! I was not allowed to change the structure of the index, though I added stuff the authors had missed the first time around. It was basically plugging page numbers into the index structure after the entire book was reset and printed with new tables and charts. Never again, thank you! BTW, does anyone have other books like Jacobs' to suggest? Anything about etymology? ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Just a note to let the world know I'm going to be outta town and unavailable for the next two weeks. (I'll be wandering about in Ohio and Indiana courthouses for a change, in pursuit of genealogical answers....) Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Food words All - Quick response to Cynthia's question about [readable] etymology books: I recommend "Made in America: An Informal History of the English Language in the United States" by Bill Bryson. My copy is quality paperback, Wm. Morrow, 1994. Think I got it from Daedalus (1-800-395-2665) but not sure (it's been a while). Readable and Lots of fun. He also wrote, among others, "A Dictionary of Troublesome Words" and "The Mother Tongue". Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:55:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Web sites of interest to indexers, sources for I just got my Supplement to vol. 35 of Choice: Current Reviews for Academic Libraries. (Choice is a publications review periodical for academic librarians and is a good source for (1) finding out what is being published in a subject area and, therefore, (2) what is probably being bought by academic libraries. I use it to satify my curiosity about what publishers are publishing what and then slant my marketing in that direction when I can.) Anyway, this Supplement is about 120 pages of actual reviews with approximately 5 Web sites reviewed on nearly every page. There are sites for every possible academic discipline and most of the sites are free-access types. Some interesting sites: Finding Information on the Internet http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/TeachingLib/Guides/Internet/FindInfo.html Librarian's Guide to the Best Information on the Internet http://www.sau.edu/CWIS/Internet/Wild/access.htm On-line Medical Dictionary http://www.graylab.ac.uk/omd/ and so on forever. You might be able to get a look at this issue of Choice if you live near a university. Extra single copies can be had for the whopping sum of $24. If you buy 20 or more copies, they are $17.50 each. Ouch! Oh well. If you are interested in getting a copy, send an e-mail to subscriptions@ala-choice.org. And no, I have no ties to Choice, ALA, or anything like that. Just passing on some interesting resources. Have a good day! ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:01:05 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: Food words Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com)lists over 50 books on etymology, including,"When a Loose Cannon Flogs a Dead Horse, There's the Devil to Pay: Seafaring Words in Everyday Speech", and "Labels for Locals: What to Call People from Abilene to Zimbabwe". Which ones to buy first? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:34:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Seattle summary? Is there an online summary of the Seattle conference? I checked the ASI page, but it is only the announcement that appeared before the conference. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:02:38 -0700 Reply-To: cpuryear@cpis.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlene Puryear Subject: website I would appreciate your taking a look at a webpage I just uploaded about South Carolina during the American Revolution. As a new indexer (in training--not working in the field yet), I wanted the experience of preparing the webpage (somewhat) in back-of-book indexing style. I chose the topic--S.C. history--because of my work experience as a school media specialist. I'm hoping that school librarians, students, and teachers will find the index to be useful. I need some feedback from professional indexers. I'm new at this and especially need guidance on the wording of subheadings. So, please if you have the time, take a look and give me your words of wisdom. I have also asked my USDA indexing course instructor to take a look. http://members.tripod.com/~CharlenePuryear/index.htm Thanks. Charlene Puryear cpuryear@cpis.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:42:52 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: website Charlene Puryear wrote: > > I would appreciate your taking a look at a webpage I just uploaded > > http://members.tripod.com/~CharlenePuryear/index.htm I am curious what the page numbers represent. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:48:25 -0700 Reply-To: cpuryear@cpis.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlene Puryear Subject: Website Let me clarify a couple of things about the website I asked y'all to check for me. The index is for websites, not a book. The parenthetical comments such as (select: things to do; attractions/activities/interests; historic battle sites) were included to help guide users to the indexed information. Unfortunately, on a few websites different pages do not have their own address; consequently, I couldn't link directly to the webpage needed. I assigned each webpage a number (hence the "page" numbers). I was going to put the entire URL next to each subject, but that was very messy looking. The Notes area is rather blurred. It has been suggested that I change the background. I certainly will consider that; I want the index to be easy on the eyes. I've received a couple of responses, and I appreciate your questions and advice! Charlene cpuryear@cpis.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:55:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! Speaking strictly for myself, I'm not offended that this URL was put out on the list. I appreciate being warned about the fee, but if they truly are good at drumming up work (the part of the job I hate) then for some (like me) it may be worth paying to have someone else do the dirty work. I'm part of other lists where contract work both independent and for agents is discussed, and most people seem to appreciate the information. I do. Julie At 10:25 PM 8/13/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 8/14/98 1:59:52 AM, you wrote: > ><through them. Therefore, this is a commercial advertisement and >inappropriate for this list. > >Dick Evans>> > >Ah. Thanks for letting us know, and save us precious time. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:58:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dennis Lastique Subject: Referral Network - Revisited Greetings: A change has ben made to the Indexers' Referral Network. Finders' fees are no longer required. There are no charges of any kind to indexers. URL: jump.to/referrals ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:10:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! I think 10% is a perfectly reasonable fee. Unless we pay for a service like that with membership fees, how would the company get paid for work they do setting up and maintaining the service? You don't have to pay unless you get the work. If I get a referral I plan to ask the publisher to split the fee with me. I will consider it money well spent. Another issue, however, is putting ads on the list. I was glad of it this time, but in general I don't like it. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:24:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! In-Reply-To: <199808141556.LAA10290@camel5.mindspring.com> At 08:55 AM 8/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >Speaking strictly for myself, I'm not offended that this URL was put out on >the list. I appreciate being warned about the fee, but if they truly are >good at drumming up work (the part of the job I hate) then for some (like >me) it may be worth paying to have someone else do the dirty work. I'm not offended either, but it is a commercial ad and is therefore inappropriate. Beyond that, the text of their offer reminds me of a late night infomercial. They trumpet up front that there are no "out of pocket expenses" and downplay the fact that they expect a cut. I have no idea who is offering this service and it frankly struck me as sleazy and deceptive. Who is behind the service? How much is their cut? Do you work for high enough rates that you can afford to skim a commission? What will they do with the profile information you provide? Dollars to donuts that the more you get involved, the more fees you will discover. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:23:20 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Referral Network - Revisited Dennis Lastique wrote: > > A change has been made to the Indexers' Referral Network. > Finders' fees are no longer required. > There are no charges of any kind to indexers. Wow--it'd be pretty hard to complain about that! ;) --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:32:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Referral Network - Revisited In-Reply-To: <199808141605.MAA28422@camel20.mindspring.com> At 10:58 AM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings: > >A change has ben made to the Indexers' Referral Network. Finders' fees are >no longer required. There are no charges of any kind to indexers. >URL: jump.to/referrals Does anyone know who is behind this? Apparently someone who follows INDEX-L and is responding to my earlier post about charges. The fact that they so quickly removed the charges leads me to believe that their real goal is to collect profile information. How about it? Anyone affiliated with this service willing to talk about it? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:42:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network In-Reply-To: <199808140114.VAA21762@camel20.mindspring.com> At 08:07 PM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings! > >If you would like help getting your next indexing assignment, check out Dennis: Care to introduce yourself? A Deja News search finds neither your name nor you e-mail address. I don't recall you contributing to this list before and I don't see you in the ASI directory. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:38:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! In-Reply-To: <199808141620.JAA19891@corpmail1.jps.net> My reaction was similar to Dick's. I thought the sleaze factor was very high, and I particularly don't like the use of a "jump-to" - it seems to be set up to deliberately hide something, and I expect it has to do with gathering profile information. My gut tells me to stay away. Here's a warning on another service: Thomas P. Copley (Arlington Courseware) often posts notices for on-line seminars to this list. I took his HTML course last year, and it was fairly good, for $20 or so. I had a few problems receiving lessons, but after some complaining got it straightened out. But this year I signed up for a $30 XML course that was supposed to have 6 lessons. I received only 3, and they were nearly devoid of content. I never got any response to my frequent requests for the final lessons. So I am out $30, along with a lot of other people. FWIW. Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:52:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: Re: Seattle summary? In-Reply-To: <199808141429.HAA13856@smtp2.teleport.com> >Is there an online summary of the Seattle conference? I checked the ASI >page, but it is only the announcement that appeared before the >conference. Hi Dick - I can summarize it. It as a useful, friendly, delicious, useful, eye-opening, well-organized, useful, inspiring,connection building, useful, fun conference! And the photo directory has turned out to be something I, incorrectly, didn't expect to use. I use it often. There. Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:43:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! In-Reply-To: <199808141625.JAA26573@decibel.electriciti.com> I agree with Dick about the sort of sales pitch employed. It is one I would not personally chose to be represented by. Fine indexers would not necessarily share my view. I prefer that the list not include commercial pitches, but simple announcements without comment and contact information or website @dresses should be okay. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:13:32 -0400 Reply-To: ADay@professionaljeweler.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Website Charlene, I looked at your site briefly, and I also was confused by the numbers until I read your latest post. I assume you wanted some sort of text to serve as the link to the corresponding page, so you chose the file numbers. Have you considered using a short phrase for each link that gives a hint about what's in the corresponding file? For example (linked text represented by asterisks, topics picked out of the air): Vegetables: *broccoli*, *carrots*, *lettuce* or Vegetables [indent]*broccoli* [indent]*carrots* [indent]*lettuce* instead of your current method: Vegetables: *1*, *8*, *10* where 1, 8, and 10 refer to the broccoli, carrots and lettuce pages respectively. I think this type of setup looks more at home on the web and also helps people choose which link to click on first when there are several per topic. Sorry about the veggie examples, but I've deleted your original post containing your site address so I couldn't use actual headings. I recall one of the links led to the text of the Articles of Confederation, so maybe that link could actually say "Articles of Confederation" instead of just a number. The word clues might also help you to keep track of which links are which as your site grows. Hope this helps, Anne Day Charlene Puryear wrote: > Let me clarify a couple of things about the website I asked y'all to > check for me. The index is for websites, not a book. The parenthetical > comments such as > (select: things to do; attractions/activities/interests; historic battle > sites) were included to help guide users to the indexed information. > Unfortunately, on a few websites different pages do not have their own > address; consequently, I couldn't link directly to the webpage needed. > > I assigned each webpage a number (hence the "page" numbers). I was > going to put the entire URL next to each subject, but that was very > messy looking. > > The Notes area is rather blurred. It has been suggested that I change > the background. I certainly will consider that; I want the index to be > easy on the eyes. > > I've received a couple of responses, and I appreciate your questions and > advice! > > Charlene > cpuryear@cpis.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:17:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Referral Network - Revisited DejaNews profile for Dennis Lastique of Burnet, TX shows only MLM (multi-level marketing) activities. Go here to see a list of his most recent posts: http://www.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=dennisl@tstar.net&ST=PS For those of you not familiar with DejaNews, it is a service that archives everything posted to Usenet (a.k.a. newsgroups). One can request that one's posts not be archived, and can also go through a fairly arduous process to remove all archived posts. I find that DejaNews is a quick, publicly-accessible way to see what a person has posted in the past. For instance (and to play fair) here's my current profile: http://www.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=Ann%20Norcross%20%3cnorcross@ipass.net %3e&ST=PS And finally, I am curious about why the gender of the indexer is part of the information being gathered at Dennis' site? -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services (919) 852-0042 mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:22:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: Anonymous Cookies All indexers, if you haven't already, you should load the (freeware) Luckman's Anonymous Cookies so that info grabbers can't grab you. It is at www.luckman.com There are other products, but this is the best one I know. Rivka ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:47:24 -0400 Reply-To: HMCMURRA@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! Timothy Griffin wrote: > > In a message dated 8/14/98 1:59:52 AM, you wrote: > > < through them. Therefore, this is a commercial advertisement and > inappropriate for this list. > > Dick Evans>> > > Ah. Thanks for letting us know, and save us precious time. The FAQ on their page says that they used to charge a fee but not any longer. Heather ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Michaud Subject: "examples" - to index or not? Hi all, I am working on my second professional index, and I have a question (actually I have lots of questions, but I'll try to keep this short). The book is on skin care, and it is a textbook for beauty school students - aspiring professional estheticians. The author has scattered many "examples" through the text. Just to make up an example, he might say, "There are a number of treatments for acne, salicylic acid and benzyol peroxide are examples." I've been indexing this as: acne, treatments for, 3 salicylic acid, 3 benzyol peroxide, 3 But now I'm in a whole section on ingredients, which he has divided by type, i.e. "Humectants retard moisture loss in the product while it is in the container and also help trap moisture on the skin. Glycerin, sorbitol, and propylene glycol are widely used." My problem is that when I index both the category of ingredient and the several specific ingredients I am approaching 50 entries per page of text, and I'm starting to feel this is overkill. On the other hand, the readers are skin care professionals, and I think that they would want to find ingredients in the index. What do you think? I don't have a space limit. Thanks for your help. Christine Michaud Michaud Editorial Services cmichaud@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:54:59 -0400 Reply-To: ADay@professionaljeweler.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network I somehow missed the original post regarding this supposed referral service, but given the author's history of get-rich-quick schemes (thanks to Ann Norcross for pointing us to DejaNews), and the apparent quick change to no-fee terms, I'd have to agree with Dick, who warns that this is probably an info-gathering ploy. Does Index-L have a policy regarding commercial posts? I probably read about it in the initial "welcome to index-l" message, but I don't recall now. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:03:06 -0400 Reply-To: HMCMURRA@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network-Thanks Dick! Nell Benton wrote: > > I think 10% is a perfectly reasonable fee. Unless we pay for a service like > that with membership fees, how would the company get paid for work they do > setting up and maintaining the service? > > You don't have to pay unless you get the work. If I get a referral I plan to > ask the publisher to split the fee with me. I will consider it money well > spent. > > Another issue, however, is putting ads on the list. I was glad of it this > time, but in general I don't like it. > > Nell Nell, Wouldn't the publisher pay a finder's fee to the company for the indexer-referral? I am uncomfortable with the thought of splitting salary with a publisher, unless I was learning to index. Heather ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:58:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Hayes Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network In-Reply-To: <199808141640.MAA19963@smtp03.kent.edu> I went to the internic site: http://www.rs.internic.net and looked up the source server. There is a tstar.net; but no tstar.ne. There is an administrative contact and etc., if information about this person is desired. Thayes thayes2@kent.edu On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Richard Evans wrote: > At 08:07 PM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Greetings! > > > >If you would like help getting your next indexing assignment, check out > > Dennis: > > Care to introduce yourself? A Deja News search finds neither your name nor > you e-mail address. I don't recall you contributing to this list before > and I don't see you in the ASI directory. > > Dick Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:08:33 -0400 Reply-To: HMCMURRA@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather Subject: Re: Referral Network - Revisited Richard Evans wrote: > > At 10:58 AM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Greetings: > > > >A change has ben made to the Indexers' Referral Network. Finders' fees are > >no longer required. There are no charges of any kind to indexers. > >URL: jump.to/referrals > > Does anyone know who is behind this? Apparently someone who follows > INDEX-L and is responding to my earlier post about charges. The fact that > they so quickly removed the charges leads me to believe that their real > goal is to collect profile information. > > How about it? Anyone affiliated with this service willing to talk about it? > > Dick Ahh, that quickness might explain why they spelled "used" as "use"! I agree with another post about the JUMP. Heather ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:26:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dennis Lastique Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network In-Reply-To: <199808141636.LAA08450@orion.tstar.net> At 12:42 PM 8/14/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Care to introduce yourself? A Deja News search finds neither your name nor >you e-mail address. I don't recall you contributing to this list before >and I don't see you in the ASI directory. > >Dick Evans > > Dick: I certainly didn't mean to cause any controversy. My name is Dennis Lastique. I live in Burnet, Texas. I've been involved with computers, teaching application software since 1983 under my company name Personal Computer Directions, (and later Majestic Computer Services). I have been interested in indexing for ten years, but have just recently begun to do something about it. I have taken Susan Holbert's Video course, and I now reading Nancy Mulvaney's Indexing Book. In my quest for locating appropriate publishers I have come across what I feel will be an excellent method. I would like to provide such a service to other indexers, hence the Indexers' Referral Service. This is a brand new operation and consequentlt have a track record (yet). My e-mail address is dennisl@tstar.net The Indexers' Referral Network URl is: http//www.freeyellow.com/members/lastique/page1.html it has been re-directed to www.jump.to/referrals in order to save your fingers. I did have some DejaVu postings about a year ago. I am not an ASI member (yet). Can I help with anything else? --Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:36:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Indexers' Referral Network Dennis, Your project sounds like a good service to me. I was wondering, how are you marketing it to publishers? Nell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:27:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judith Gibbs Subject: Yet another test This is yet another test to see if the repro command took this time around. Judi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:30:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judith Gibbs Subject: Test Thanks for the update, Charlotte. Just another update to see if it works this time. Judi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:20:57 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Organization: W W Walker Web Development Subject: WWWalker Web Indexing course finishes I am no longer taking any more new students for the Web indexing course. It was not paying me and was becoming harder and harder to get quality chat sessions to work - stuffed AOL connections, people with no idea whatsoever about HTML editors or installing internet software on their Macs, times in peak period when ICQ would be very flakey - so I was spending most of my time trouble-shooting - not exactly a tutorial experience! The course notes will be there still so you can buy access to them via a userid and password. You can also read them in your leisure. Current students will be able to do the course or finish it. Thanks for your support. Sad to say my US trip was not what I had hoped financially so I am being hit hard now paying for it - hence the closure of the course. Something had to go. Take care USA. Adieu Dwight -- -------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker WWWalker Web Development, PO Box 288, Wentworthville, Sydney, 2145, Australia http://www.wwwalker.com.au tel +61-2-98960286, mob +61-412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.mirabilis.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:22:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: "examples" - to index or not? Christine, This seems like one of those situations in which knowledge of the field (and what users of the book will need) should guide you, rather than some arbitrary density figures. I would tend to index all of the chemical names also, but perhaps you can find some criteria for selectively indexing them or grouping them in some way with mere cross-references from the specific names (rather than separately entering a locator for each one (which reduces the number of hits on separate chemicals, even though you would still have to type each one once): example: (using easier-to-spell items) vegetables, 2, 5, 12, etc. carrots. See vegetables zucchini. See vegetables This kind of grouping might be appropriate if the groups like "astringents" are consistent and clearly defined in the field, and if the lists of examples only list some of the available ones--esp. if this is a somewhat arbitrary list (In other words, perhaps the specific chemicals are less important than the topical groups, even to the beauticans--if they need an astringent, perhaps which one isn't important.) At 50 entries per page (and assuming the whole book will be like this--maybe it is only a chapter or two?), it's certainly time to call the client and confer. You probably didn't sign on for that much work. At the moment I'm also working on a project that is denser than expected, and I was grumbling to myself until I read your post! (A clear case of my feeling better knowing it could be worse.) Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:27:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beverly Schane Subject: Re: GETTING STARTED-NEED ADVICE ON COURSES Jill--did you get any replies on this? If you did, could you let me know the responses? I'm thinking about Susan Holbert's video, too. Also, did you hear anything on the market out there? Thanks! Beverly