From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 1-JUL-1998 14:24:59.27 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9804E" Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:42:59 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9804E" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:10:59 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Attention! Macrex users and Interested Indexers In-Reply-To: <893433586.3125130.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In message <893433586.3125130.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, Macrex writes > You Are Invited to a Macrex Reception >On Wednesday, May 13, 1998, at Cavanaughs on Fifth Avenue (the ASI conference >hotel) Hilary & Drusilla Calvert will host a reception for Macrex users. >Starting at 6pm, this will be your chance to meet the designers of the Macrex >software and to get to know other Macrex users. You do not need to be >registered for the Macrex Workshops (or the ASI conference) in order to >attend. Max McMasters, Macrex distributor for Australia, New Zealand and South >East Asia will be the special guest. If possible, please let us know you are >coming. RSVP by e-mail to hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk or by phone to (650) >756-0821. > Hello Drusilla, I'm not very likely to be able to attend, as I don't expect to arrive in Seattle until some time on Thursday. Exciting plans for California, including a trip to Yosemite Nat. Park, I hope. Much more attractive, even (dare I say it?) than a Macrex Reception. By the way, I have the latest CD-ROM of Archbold (with the ex-printed index). How can I best display the original index? A floppy in Word/RTF, or --? Unless I hear to the contrary, I will leave here at dawn on Sunday with a floppy with the index as above. I have just been printing lots of SI invoices, and I 'll send you your ration today, you lucky people! I can't trace receiving payment for the previous one, so I'm sending a copy reminder. If you feel like paying, please send cheque to Mermaid Court for Sue Robertson to deal with. Brief Entry no.4 is due from the printers tomorrow (I think). I probably shan't get around to invoicing those advertisers until June, so you will have to await that pleasure as best you can. Best wishes, see you soon! Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Mobile: 07771-615239 (Vodafone) ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:43:25 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Dermody" Subject: Opinions and Advice Hello, I am writing to get opinions on the Indexing correspondence course offered by the USDA. I have been doing some reading and research about indexing and have seen many references to the USDA Indexing course. I would like to find out how this course is viewed by indexers working in the field. Have many of you taken one of the indexing courses offered by the USDA? If so, what is your opinion of the course? Do you recommend other sources of indexing training instead? The description of the course sounds very interesting, and the flexibility of it is appealing, but I would like to get views from practicing indexers. When I was in library school, I was unfortunately unable to take the one Indexing and Abstracting course that was offered during my stay. I welcome opinions on the USDA course as well as any advice in general on how to obtain indexing training and experience. Please feel free to contact me personally at dermody@lfc.edu if this topic is not appropriate for the entire list. thank you in advance, Melinda Dermody dermody@lfc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:09:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susanne Ford-Croghan Subject: Re: Opinions and Advice I too have been researching indexing and would be interested in your results. Could you forward your responses to me, or send me a quick note with your results? One course that I have heard quite a bit about is Susan Holbart's video course. Other than that, I'm not sure. Thanks Susanne > Susanne Ford-Croghan, Librarian Salem Central School East Broadway Salem, New York 12865 crogan@sover.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carol T. Bradford" Subject: Re: Opinions and Advice In-Reply-To: <199804291552.LAA29677@freedom.cce.cornell.edu> >I welcome opinions on the USDA course as well as any advice in general >on how to obtain indexing training and experience. > >Please feel free to contact me personally at dermody@lfc.edu if this >topic is not appropriate for the entire list. Please do post answers to the list. I joined to get exactly this kind of information and I'm looking forward to the responses. ****************************************************************************** Carol T. Bradford c/o Home and Garden e-mail:cbradfor@cce.cornell.edu Syracuse Newspapers Fax:315-470-2111 P.O. Box 4915 Syracuse, New York 13221 ****************************************************************************** e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:35:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura Lyons Subject: Unsubscribe Please unsubscribe my name to the Index-L listserve. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:23:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters I'm currently indexing a book which is chock-full of German terms and names. I have several questions regarding the alphabetization thereof: 1. In an English-language index, are letters with umlauts alphabetized as though they have no umlaut, or are they alphabetized preceding or following the un-umlauted letter? IOW, if Brunig is spelled with a U-umlaut, would it be: (a) brunch Brunig brunt or (b) Brunig brunch brunt or (c) brunch brunt Brunig 2. How is the German letter which looks like a capital B and sounds like a double-S alphabetized in an English-language index? Like a double-S? Or should it have its own place in the alphabetical scheme, and if so, where? (They teach all the wrong things in German class... I can still quote from "Winnie der Pooh", but we never discussed alphabetization. Ah, well.) TIA, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:29:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar I've been thinking about a name for my indexing business. I'd rather not use my own name as the primary business name, since people are often baffled by how to pronounce it. (It's PEE-kahr, or possibly peh-KAHR. But you wouldn't believe how many times I've been called Ms. Pecker!) I'd also rather not duplicate a name -- not fair to the original "owner." Does anyone know if the name "BookEnds" is currently in use by an indexer or freelance editor? Feel free to reply privately if you wish. Thanks, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:09:56 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nmbenton Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters The Library of Congress alphabetizes an an umlaut as if there is an "e" after the letter. I don't know how widespread that practice is, but it is an option. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:03:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters At 07:09 PM 4/29/98 EDT, Nmbenton wrote: >The Library of Congress alphabetizes an an umlaut as if there is an "e" after >the letter. I don't know how widespread that practice is, but it is an option. >Nell (Note: I cannot get the umlaut over the vowels in my e-mail program, so I am using "umlauted u", etc. to indicate the diacritic.) Hans Wellisch states, in Indexing from A to Z (2nd ed., p. 140), that "diacritics should be disregarded in alphabetizing...and only the basic letter be taken into account." He goes on to discuss the umlaut (or dieresis), a special case in German. Only in German can the umlauted a, o, u also be written as ae, oe, and ue. So Muller, Fritz (umlauted u) can also be Mueller, Fritz. Wellisch says cross-references are needed from one to the other form of the name if the person prefers the ae, oe, ue treatment over the umlauted vowel, etc. Mulvany (p. 121) says an umlauted u "sorts as a u." Hope this helps. For those of you out there just getting your basic indexing reference books together, CMS (The Chicago Manual of Style) and Wellisch's book are two necessary books. My copies are well worn from all the use I make of them and worth every cent I paid for them. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:54:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11 Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters Kara wrote: << 1. In an English-language index, are letters with umlauts alphabetized as though they have no umlaut, or are they alphabetized preceding or following the un-umlauted letter? As if they have no umlaut--unless they are spelled with the added "e" signifying the umlaut (Bruenig) in which case they are alphabetized including the e. In other words, in an English-language index one assumes the reader doesn't know what an umlaut is and allows them to ignore it. 2. How is the German letter which looks like a capital B and sounds like a double-S alphabetized in an English-language index? Like a double-S? Or should it have its own place in the alphabetical scheme, and if so, where? Hmm. I would alphabetize this as a double S, but non-German speaking readers might have a hard time with it. I haven't run into it much, as most books for English audiences change it into a double S in the text. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:17:55 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jgreene Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters Dear Kara, 1. To write out a german word that has an umlaut without using the umlaut you would attach an "e" to the umlauted vowel; ie. schoen, Goethe, Bruenig. 2. That character that looks like a capital B and represents the sound of a double ss (or sz) in a german word can also be written as a double ss; ie. essen, and strasse. Then you would alphabetize these words the same way you alphabetize your other words, either word by word or letter by letter. Joyce Greene John and Kara Pekar wrote: > I'm currently indexing a book which is chock-full of German terms and > names. I have several questions regarding the alphabetization thereof: > > 1. In an English-language index, are letters with umlauts alphabetized as > though they have no umlaut, or are they alphabetized preceding or following > the un-umlauted letter? IOW, if Brunig is spelled with a U-umlaut, would > it be: > > (a) brunch > Brunig > brunt > > or (b) Brunig > brunch > brunt > > or (c) brunch > brunt > Brunig > > 2. How is the German letter which looks like a capital B and sounds like a > double-S alphabetized in an English-language index? Like a double-S? Or > should it have its own place in the alphabetical scheme, and if so, where? > > (They teach all the wrong things in German class... I can still quote from > "Winnie der Pooh", but we never discussed alphabetization. Ah, well.) > > TIA, > Kara Pekar > jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:58:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters Kara Pekar asked: <1. In an English-language index, are letters with umlauts alphabetized a= s though they have no umlaut, or are they alphabetized preceding or followi= ng the un-umlauted letter? = 2. How is the German letter which looks like a capital B and sounds like = a double-S alphabetized in an English-language index? Like a double-S? Or= should it have its own place in the alphabetical scheme, and if so, where= ? I'd like to add my vote to those of Cynthia Bertelsen and Do Mi Stauber. = I ignore umlauts in alphabetization, and sort the double-s character as ss (on the rare occasions when it is needed). In the Oxford-Duden German dictionary, the guide to the use of the dictionary specifically states th= at this is the style followed, and I don't see why it should be different in= English. I'm not sure, but I think Macrex also sorts this way as a default. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:54:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters In-Reply-To: <199804292311.TAA94066@rs8.loc.gov> I would ignore the umlaut for an English-language index because most English (and indeed, most non-German?) speakers are unaware of what the umlaut stands for over a vowel and it would only make it out of place and therefore wrong. On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Nmbenton wrote: > The Library of Congress alphabetizes an an umlaut as if there is an "e" after > the letter. I don't know how widespread that practice is, but it is an option. > Nell Umm, no it doesn.'t. Not since computers arrived on the scene. Any special letter (umlauts, transcriptions of African or other languages, the Scandinavian o-with slash, etc.) all file on whatever the closest English letter is. And the German double "ss" is transcribed as "ss." Same is true of the Mc, Mac words--they used to interfile and if I recall correctly it was the custom to have Mc-words precede Ma---, but computers ended those practices. Have always thought it odd you couldn't get a computer to file special forms of a letter (e.g., a-umlaut) after the regular letter, but guess it was too much bother to worry about. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:55:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301 Subject: Re Opinions and Advice The USDA course is well worth it. It's designed to cover not only the technical parts of indexing (term selection, proper comma placement, for instance) but also the business aspects of freelancing. I took it over three years ago and was lucky to have part-time work to hold me together during that time and while I was getting started. Last fall I gave up my part-time job for two important reasons: I had so much indexing I hadn't had a day off in weeks, and my boss had changed and I didn't enjoy working with the new one. I'm still learning what it's like to be a full-time freelance indexer -- generally I like it better than working for someone else. An additional benefit for me was that my USDA teacher sent me work, became a friend, and has sent me work again as recently as this week. The other important piece for getting going in indexing is to hunt down your local area chapter of the American Society of Indexers. Although chapters meet between two and four times each year (wasn't often enough for me when I started), you can gradually become involved. Chapters host wonderful workshops and tell-all meetings. From there you'll have colleagues who may send you work or to whom you'll turn when you (eventually) get swamped or when their expertise is a better fit than yours. The USDA course can take several months to complete, but it's still worth doing. Go for it! Deborah ==================== Deborah Patton, Indexer Baltimore, MD dp1301@aol.com 410/243-4688 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:09:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Macrex reception in Seattle + Term needed There seems to have been some confusion about the Macrex reception on May 13th (6pm at Cavanaugh's Inn, Seattle). This is just to confirm that we are hosting a reception to which all Macrex users are invited. If you are a Macrex user and haven't yet let us know you are coming please could you do so as soon as possible so that we can tell the hotel how many people to expect? And - What about a circular cross-reference of indexers? ('Indexers ^see^ indexers' - or, for that matter 'indexers ^see also^ indexers')? Best wishes to all Drusilla Drusilla Calvert MACREX Indexing Services hcalvert@macrex.cix.co.uk http://www.macrex.cix.co.uk/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters At 05:23 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote: >I'm currently indexing a book which is chock-full of German terms and >names. I have several questions regarding the alphabetization thereof: > >1. In an English-language index, are letters with umlauts alphabetized as >though they have no umlaut, or are they alphabetized preceding or following >the un-umlauted letter? IOW, if Brunig is spelled with a U-umlaut, would >it be: > > (a) brunch > Brunig > brunt > >or (b) Brunig > brunch > brunt > >or (c) brunch > brunt > Brunig > > >2. How is the German letter which looks like a capital B and sounds like a >double-S alphabetized in an English-language index? Like a double-S? Or >should it have its own place in the alphabetical scheme, and if so, where? > >(They teach all the wrong things in German class... I can still quote from >"Winnie der Pooh", but we never discussed alphabetization. Ah, well.) > >TIA, >Kara Pekar >jkpekar@crosslink.net When writing German umlauted names in English, most authorities change the umlauted letter to a vowel combination, example: The town of Tubingen--umlaut over the "u"--becomes Tuebingen in English. "a" with an umlaut becomes "ae"; "o" with an umlaut becomes "oe", etc. DO NOT LEAVE THE VOWEL UNCHANGED WHEN TRANSLATING. There are words and place names where the only difference in spelling is the umlaut and such a difference can change the meaning of the word. (1) Bruenig brunch brunt The "capital B", or esset, should be written in English as a two "s"s. Anne Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:29:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters At 04:58 AM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote: [...] >I'd like to add my vote to those of Cynthia Bertelsen and Do Mi Stauber. I >ignore umlauts in alphabetization, and sort the double-s character as ss >(on the rare occasions when it is needed). In the Oxford-Duden German >dictionary, the guide to the use of the dictionary specifically states that >this is the style followed, and I don't see why it should be different in= > >English. > >I'm not sure, but I think Macrex also sorts this way as a default. > >Christine [...] I can't emphasize enough that you should NOT ignore the umlauts! It can change the meaning of the word if you do not account for the difference in vowels. Same with the esset, make it a double "s". I have used indexes where this has been done and the result ain't good. As a book selector, I also rejected some books because it was obvious the editors and indexers hadn't a clue. (I also had a German professor who made fun of English-language indexes that did ignore such.) Anne Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:04:16 -0600 Reply-To: mcnulty@montana.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne or Moose McNulty Subject: that first job! Hi all-- I am still in the process of learning indexing and haven't even begun to market myself. I'm not in a position to take the USDA course because of finances so I'll check out Susan Holbert's workshop video as well as some good books (and practice lots). First, is this enough training to land me a job after some heavy duty marketing? Also, is that first job as hard to get as everyone says? I hear about people who have sent out 100 letters or made 70-100 calls to publishers to land that first job. Is this what I should expect? Is there anybody out there who lives in Montana? I'd love to connect with some local people. Thanks guys Joanne McNulty mcnulty@montana.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:07:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters In-Reply-To: <199804301442.KAA42564@rs8.loc.gov> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Anne Taylor wrote: > I can't emphasize enough that you should NOT ignore the umlauts! It can > change the meaning of the word if you do not account for the difference in > vowels. Same with the esset, make it a double "s". I believe the original question concerned how to alphabetize the word. The umlaut would still appear, so the meaning would not change, just its location. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:20:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters Thank you to everyone who replied to my questions about the German esset and umlauts. Your advice was very helpful. To sum up the replies, the majority opinion seems to be to retain the umlauts and not sort them differently, and to treat the esset (thanks for reminding me of its name!) as a double-S. Anne Taylor said, > When writing German umlauted names in English, most authorities change the > umlauted letter to a vowel combination, example: The town of > Tubingen--umlaut over the "u"--becomes Tuebingen in English. "a" with an > umlaut becomes "ae"; "o" with an umlaut becomes "oe", etc. DO NOT LEAVE > THE VOWEL UNCHANGED WHEN TRANSLATING. There are words and place names > where the only difference in spelling is the umlaut and such a difference > can change the meaning of the word. > > (1) Bruenig > brunch > brunt The only problem with doing so in this case is that the text has not followed this convention; by and large, the text retains the umlauts. This may be the fault (or decision) of the translators, or of the copyeditor, or both. Since I am indexing (and it is much too late for the text to be changed, even if they wanted to) it seems to me that I ought to follow the text rather than changing the umlauted vowels to a vowel combination. Changing them would only result in confusion for the reader, unless I crossreferenced from one to the other, which I don't have space to do. (The book is loaded with names; I'm going to have to squeeze as it is.) However, I will certainly remember this tip if I'm ever copyediting a book containing German words and names! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:02:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters At 11:20 AM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote: >Thank you to everyone who replied to my questions about the German esset >and umlauts. Your advice was very helpful. To sum up the replies, the >majority opinion seems to be to retain the umlauts and not sort them >differently, and to treat the esset (thanks for reminding me of its name!) >as a double-S. [...] >> (1) Bruenig >> brunch >> brunt > >The only problem with doing so in this case is that the text has not >followed this convention; by and large, the text retains the umlauts. This >may be the fault (or decision) of the translators, or of the copyeditor, or >both. Since I am indexing (and it is much too late for the text to be >changed, even if they wanted to) it seems to me that I ought to follow the >text rather than changing the umlauted vowels to a vowel combination. >Changing them would only result in confusion for the reader, unless I >crossreferenced from one to the other, which I don't have space to do. >(The book is loaded with names; I'm going to have to squeeze as it is.) >However, I will certainly remember this tip if I'm ever copyediting a book >containing German words and names! > >Kara Pekar >jkpekar@crosslink.net I misread the original query (Thanks Sam Andrusko!), believed that the umlauts were being dropped and howled accordingly. Using the "Times Atlas" and "Cassell's German Dictionary" as yardsticks, the convention is to alphabetize the umlauted vowel after the "regular" ones. Buchen (in Baden-Wuerttemberg) comes before Bu(umlaut)chen (in Schleswig-Holstein). Sorry for the shrillness. Anne Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:58:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Msg Recipient Subject: Mail failure TO: John and Kara Pekar DATE: 04-30-98 TIME: 10:58 SUBJECT: Mail failure ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [021] Message was not delivered due to missing routing file. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: John and Kara Pekar [SMTP:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L [SMTP:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] Date: 1998-04-30 11:20 Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you to everyone who replied to my questions about the German esset and umlauts. Your advice was very helpful. To sum up the replies, the majority opinion seems to be to retain the umlauts and not sort them differently, and to treat the esset (thanks for reminding me of its name!) as a double-S. Anne Taylor said, > When writing German umlauted names in English, most authorities change the > umlauted letter to a vowel combination, example: The town of > Tubingen--umlaut over the "u"--becomes Tuebingen in English. "a" with an > umlaut becomes "ae"; "o" with an umlaut becomes "oe", etc. DO NOT LEAVE > THE VOWEL UNCHANGED WHEN TRANSLATING. There are words and place names > where the only difference in spelling is the umlaut and such a difference > can change the meaning of the word. > > (1) Bruenig > brunch > brunt The only problem with doing so in this case is that the text has not followed this convention; by and large, the text retains the umlauts. This may be the fault (or decision) of the translators, or of the copyeditor, or both. Since I am indexing (and it is much too late for the text to be changed, even if they wanted to) it seems to me that I ought to follow the text rather than changing the umlauted vowels to a vowel combination. Changing them would only result in confusion for the reader, unless I crossreferenced from one to the other, which I don't have space to do. (The book is loaded with names; I'm going to have to squeeze as it is.) However, I will certainly remember this tip if I'm ever copyediting a book containing German words and names! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ------------------------- Original message header: >MAIL FROM: >RCPT TO: >DATA >Received: from listserv.cuny.edu (listserv.cuny.edu [128.228.100.10]) by fafhrd.SDState.Edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12264 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:41:54 -0500 (CDT) >Message-Id: <199804301541.KAA12264@fafhrd.SDState.Edu> >Received: from listserv (listserv.cuny.edu) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.FFF12D87@listserv.cuny.edu>; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:40:09 -0400 >Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:20:38 -0400 >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >Sender: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >From: John and Kara Pekar >Subject: Re: alphabetizing German diacriticals and characters >X-To: Indexer's Discussion Group >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > ------------------------- End of message header. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:54:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: reduced payment offer and serious frustration Hey all, I recently acquired a new client and did an index for them in a few days just to please them so they'd call me again. Subsequently I did a proofreading job for them and am prepared to do more work for them. The problem is actually with the author of the book, sort of.... I quoted $3 per page as a rate, got approval, completed the index and sent it in, and then sent in my invoice. I know, this is pretty typical so far. Then a few days later, I got a call from the author of the book. He gave me his name, but didn't identify himself in any way and told me he was looking at the invoice I'd sent in. I didn't know if he was with the press, or who the @#$% he was. I politely asked what this was about and with whom was he connected. He was a bit rude, but explained who he was. Then he started asking me about my invoice. Wasn't this rate too high, was this typical, what "style" did I use, did I use special software, etc. Very strange. Now, I sent the invoice in on 3/18. It's 4/29 and I've been calling my contact at the press trying to get paid. Suddenly I got a letter from the author telling me that $750 was too high, and he was prepared to pay me $500 and call it even!!!! Even for whom, I'd like to know. He claims that the person who hired me is no longer with the press, and he is not bound by my agreement with the press. During our conversation, he mentioned a person by name (this person who is no longer with the press) and asked if she was the one who hired me. I said no, someone else had. He obviously didn't listen well. This really gets my goat (polite way of saying it). This guy sent me this letter on his business stationery, listing his offices in five locations, including an international office. In his book he claims to be a big PR guy to the stars, he's making royalties on the book, and he doesn't want to pay my measly little $750 for the professional services I provided. ERGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!! My contact at the press is trying to straighten this out, but any advice from you all would be appreciated. And you know what, I didn't insist on a written contract. I will from now on. They wanted it fast, and I wanted a new client. My contact remembers the whole deal and says she got approval from her boss for my rates. She claimed that this is just this author's way of trying to slip around the press to pay less. This is definately not my favorite year!!!!!!! Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:23:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration Regarding Leslie's problem with the publisher and author, two things.... First, from my perspective (someone who works for a publisher), it seems odd that you negotiated a rate with the publisher, but were to be paid by the author. Maybe that's more common than I'm aware, but here, we either contract directly with an indexer and pay him/her ourselves, or the author is responsible for the index him/herself. Whether that means the author handles it or hires someone else is not our concern, as long as a quality index comes in on time. Second, always insist on a contract. It protects both sides. If you agree to terms with John Doe without a contract, then he leaves, then, potentially, it's his word against yours. If you agree to terms with John Doe WITH a contract, then he leaves, it doesn't matter: your contract is with the company, not him. Always, always, always sign a contract. (Do indexers find that it is fairly common for publishers/authors not to have a standard independent contractor agreement? I've always worked at companies where that's a given, but maybe it's not??) Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com Gale Research ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:33:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Web Indexing -- Information Science View I have been following the Web Index thread and would like to bring in some information from the information/library side of the issue. Web indexing is a major topic within this group as the process is very close to cataloging and database indexing and these areas fall into the general issues of online searching and information retrieval. The biggest topic has to do with meta data and developing a standard of which elements should be present in every web site record. The work in selecting these elements has been an international cooperative effort. The Oct 97 issue of Bulletin American Society of Information Science is all about meta data and can be found online at: http://www.asis.org/Bulletin/Oct-97/index.html OCLC, a major non profit organization founded in 80's and did much of the work on Online Public Access Catalogs for libraries. They also maintain the largest database of cataloging records and is used by many libraries for their cataloging records. This group along with others is working on the Dublin Core (they are located in Dublin OH) and more information can be found at: http://purl.oclc.org/metadata/dublin_core/ One last source of information is the Web4Lib listserv. This listserv focuses on issues that librariarns and others have with the Web including the indexing and organizing of it contents. A search of the archives came up with 247 messages dealing with Web Indexing. For those of you not familiar with the field, librarians are responsible for the Web content and organization in many academic, corporate and public libraries. More information about this listserv, access to the archives and sign up instructions can be found at: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Web4Lib/ Since web indexing will involve retrieval you might want to look as some of the information science journals for the latest research in this area. There is one site on the web where you can find abstracts/full text of many library/information science. This site is located at: http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/lis/ Some of the journals to look at are: Journal American Society for Information Science Information Processing and Management Journal of Information Science Journal of Internet Cataloging Internet Reference Service Quarterly Journal of Documentation -- the 1998;54(2) issue has an article on Metadata: Current view of practice and issues. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org (FYI by background is in database indexing of medical, nursing and allied health literature as well as being involved with research in medical informatics.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:09:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration In a message dated 98-04-30 13:26:03 EDT, you write: << (Do indexers find that it is fairly common for publishers/authors not to have a standard independent contractor agreement? I've always worked at companies where that's a given, but maybe it's not??) >> Larry (and others), I would be interested in hearing the responses. My personal experience has been that the larger, more organized presses have standard contracts. The small presses do not. I have done the majority of my work for large, organized presses, but sometimes the small ones sneak by me. I WILL prepare a contract from now on. I've never been burned like this before. And I am taking it up with the publisher. I believe that they contracted with the author to pay for the index. This is not rare, but usually the publisher pays the indexer and takes the indexer's fees out of the author's royalties. I was a bit shocked to hear that this pub had just passed the invoice along to the author. After all, I invoiced the press, not the author. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:20:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonald Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration I wrote a book on education law, and in my contract it specified that I was responsible for either doing the index myself or letting them hire somebody to do it and having the cost subtracted from future royalties. If I had chosen to take on the responsibility myself, I guess I could have found my own freelancer and negotiated the rate. But I just let the publisher handle it and frankly have no idea what it cost. Afraid to ask, I imagine. :) Bonnie Taylor << Regarding Leslie's problem with the publisher and author, two things.... First, from my perspective (someone who works for a publisher), it seems odd that you negotiated a rate with the publisher, but were to be paid by the author. Maybe that's more common than I'm aware, but here, we either contract directly with an indexer and pay him/her ourselves, or the author is responsible for the index him/herself. >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:59:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration Leslie, if you did the work for the publisher, and invoiced the publisher, they are the source of your payment, not the author...even if his royalty agreement specifies that he should pay the bill. In other words, you contracted with the press, and they contracted with the author. Any quibble over your price is between the press and the author, not between the author and you--particularly since you had a verbal contract and had gotten all the necessary approvals. If there is a problem, it is that the publisher did not specify a price range to the author...or that he did not specify a maximum amount he was willing to pay. The guy sounds like he's trying to intimidate you into reducing your fee to meet his expectations--AFTER the work is done. I don't react well to that sort of thing, and I don't expect most professionals do! If it were me, I'd tell him (if he calls or writes again) that this is a matter between him and the publisher and that your fee is not negotiable post-hoc, so to speak. And I think I would also make your contact at the publisher aware that it's their responsibility to solve this problem, not yours. Required disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:13:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration At 01:23 PM 4/30/1998 -0400, Larry.Baker@GALE.COM wrote: Second, always insist on a contract. It protects >both sides. If you agree to terms with John Doe without a contract, then he >leaves, then, potentially, it's his word against yours. If you agree to >terms with John Doe WITH a contract, then he leaves, it doesn't matter: >your contract is with the company, not him. Always, always, always sign a >contract. (Do indexers find that it is fairly common for publishers/authors >not to have a standard independent contractor agreement? I've always worked >at companies where that's a given, but maybe it's not??) Most of my indexing work is NOT done via contract, except with large publishers...and then the contract is between me and the publisher, not the author. I agree that having a written contract is a Good Thing, and may sometimes be essential. But I've rarely been stiffed (three times, I think, over about 20 years), and in those cases I've sued and collected. The way I handle this is informally: I always create a "paper trail" if there is no specific contract. I follow up a telephone agreement with a letter outlining what fees, deadlines, etc., we've discussed, with a note that if this is not correct the person should let me know in writing. This serves quite well as a substitute for a written agreement, as I've discovered when I've had to go to Small Claims Court. It was unclear to me from Leslie's post whether the author was to have paid her directly, or whether the publisher was paying up front and then collecting from the author via royalties. I assumed the latter when I responded to her post. If that's the case, she really isn't responsible for dealing with this problem--it's between the publisher and the author. The press ought to pay her and THEN worry about getting the money from the author. A contract would help if there was any disagreement over her terms, but there isn't. Her contact recalls the transaction, and agrees that Leslie's fee and terms are what she states them to be. If indeed Leslie was to have been paid directly with the author, then a written contract certainly would be the safest way to go...and it might have eliminated this problem immediately, since the author would have been forced to do his negotiating up-front rather than after the work was completed and Leslie would have had the opportunity to say no to a job that did not pay enough. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:13:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration At 03:09 PM 4/30/1998 EDT, LLF EdServ wrote: I've never been burned like this before. And I am taking it up >with the publisher. I believe that they contracted with the author to pay for >the index. This is not rare, but usually the publisher pays the indexer and >takes the indexer's fees out of the author's royalties. I was a bit shocked to >hear that this pub had just passed the invoice along to the author. After all, >I invoiced the press, not the author. If this is what they did, then they should have had you negotiate directly with the author to begin with! I certainly would have prepared a contract under those circumstances, and if the author was unwilling to pay my fee, we would have had a chance to work this out ahead of time. I think you got a raw deal, and I think the publisher was remiss in not making the arrangements clear to you from the beginning. And I =still= think they are responsible for clearing this up...up to and including paying you the extra $250, if it comes to that. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:29:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration In a message dated 98-04-30 16:18:01 EDT, you write: << It was unclear to me from Leslie's post whether the author was to have paid her directly, or whether the publisher was paying up front and then collecting from the author via royalties. >> Let me clear this up, just so we can discuss it on a "scholarly" level. (I'm not feeling very scholarly about it right now.) The press hired me, agreed to my rates, and sent me the material to be indexed. They also told me to send them the invoice. I had no idea at all that an author would be involved in the payment of the index. From my discussions with my contact at the press, I understood that I was contracted (albeit verbally) by the press itself and that they would be responsible. It wasn't until after the fact (index done and sent in, invoice sent in, etc.) that I had any idea that the author was a part of all this. And I think I neglected to mention that the author is an editor for this press as well as the author of the book. Perhaps that is why the invoice landed in his hands (for some odd reason). I have yet to hear from the press on this matter today and will be calling them shortly. Thanks for all your support, Leslie (one mad and mean indexer!!!!) Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:41:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: reduced payment offer resolved Well, they press and the author have come to a resolution. The author is going to pay me the $500 that he so kindly offered (hear the drip, drip, drip of sarcasm there), and the press is going to pay me the remaining $250. This works for me, but I do wish the author were going to pay all of it. I am not impressed with his behavior (to say the very least). And I am going to be a lot more careful up front from now on!!!!! Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:56:52 -0600 Reply-To: mcnulty@montana.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne or Moose McNulty Subject: thank you/index samples Thank you all for sharing your stories of first job experiences. Sounds like it will take some time and effort. One more question for now. Is it standard to send out a sample index with a resume/letter to a publisher? (meaning an index that you put together as practice from an unindexed book) A long time indexer told me that I should only send out an index which I have been paid to do. Many people here at Index-L mention sending out a practice index sample with a resume/letter. What do you all think?? Thanks again for all the input! Joanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:58:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry.Baker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration An independent author AND an editor for the press?? The plot thickens. If he's getting paid above and beyond what he gets paid as an employee for the press, that sounds like a definite conflict of interest to me. (Shhhh.... don't tell the IRS!!) If he's simply an in-house author (we've got people on staff who "author" or "edit" their own books, but they're not paid above and beyond their salary), then it sounds like you're caught amidst some in-house bureaucracy. But if you agreed to terms with your contact, that should be the end of the story. I mean, it doesn't sound like your contact is disputing the $750 amount. And if the author is just handling the book as an employee of the press, why should he care what the amount is (assuming it's not coming out of his pocket--which, if it is, well, again, that's double dipping and I don't think the IRS and their 20 factors that differentiate between employee and independent contractor would look very kindly at that). Wow. Interesting situation. Larry Baker Larry.Baker@gale.com LLF EdServ on 04/30/98 05:29:46 PM Please respond to "Indexer's Discussion Group" To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L cc: (bcc: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing) Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration In a message dated 98-04-30 16:18:01 EDT, you write: << It was unclear to me from Leslie's post whether the author was to have paid her directly, or whether the publisher was paying up front and then collecting from the author via royalties. >> Let me clear this up, just so we can discuss it on a "scholarly" level. (I'm not feeling very scholarly about it right now.) The press hired me, agreed to my rates, and sent me the material to be indexed. They also told me to send them the invoice. I had no idea at all that an author would be involved in the payment of the index. From my discussions with my contact at the press, I understood that I was contracted (albeit verbally) by the press itself and that they would be responsible. It wasn't until after the fact (index done and sent in, invoice sent in, etc.) that I had any idea that the author was a part of all this. And I think I neglected to mention that the author is an editor for this press as well as the author of the book. Perhaps that is why the invoice landed in his hands (for some odd reason). I have yet to hear from the press on this matter today and will be calling them shortly. Thanks for all your support, Leslie (one mad and mean indexer!!!!) Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:01:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Aganita Varkentine (S&T Onsite)" Subject: Re: reduced payment offer resolved Just out of curiosity what was the general subject of author's book. Am not asking for name or even title of book. > -----Original Message----- > From: LLF EdServ [SMTP:LLFEdServ@AOL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 2:42 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: reduced payment offer resolved > > Well, they press and the author have come to a resolution. The author is > going > to pay me the $500 that he so kindly offered (hear the drip, drip, drip of > sarcasm there), and the press is going to pay me the remaining $250. This > works for me, but I do wish the author were going to pay all of it. I am > not > impressed with his behavior (to say the very least). > And I am going to be a lot more careful up front from now on!!!!! > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:49:00 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonald Subject: Re: thank you/index samples Just wanted to share my recent experience (or perhaps I should say "potential experience"). I'm a member of a social club that puts out a cookbook every few years as a fundraiser. It's a nice looking product--professionally printed and in a looseleaf binder. The index, on the other hand, stinks (at least in the last edition anyway). Well, they're doing another one next year, and I've volunteered to do the index. Even though I won't be paid for the index, I would certainly plan on adding it to my list of completed indexes and using it as a sample. (I was the editor for 2 years of this club's monthly magazine, and you better believe THAT went on my resume--of course, I'm also a stay-at-home mommy/attorney, so I don't have a real high-power resume in the first place.) I don't know how others out there feel about doing freebie work, but I'm pretty excited about it. Just wanted to throw this out as an idea for others out there who are looking for "real" work. Bonnie Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:09:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nmbenton Subject: Volunteering In another thread, Bonnie wrote: << I don't know how others out there feel about doing freebie work, but I'm pretty excited about it. >> I have worked for United Way International for years as a librarian/anything- that-needs-doing person. It all goes on my resume and I have learned so very much! The rewards are incredibly rich: in satisfaction, in contacts, in staying connected. What do you say about a downtime volunteer network? Nell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:13:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: sorting question Just for the fun of it, I'd like to know how you would index the following (it's a Web site): @Bat (The Official Site of Major League Baseball) CINDEX sorts "@Bat" under B (ignoring the "@" symbol); however, I'm wondering whether or not it would make sense to sort it under A as well (as if were spelled out - at bat). BTW, I also have an entries for baseball statistics and sports statistics. Any indexers who are baseball fans??? ;-) Looking forward to hearing from you .... Lori *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Vice President/President-Elect, American Society of Indexers Lathrop Media Services, 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 / Phone: 704-531-0021 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:53:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: sorting question At 08:13 PM 4/30/98 -0400, Lori Lathrop wrote: >Just for the fun of it, I'd like to know how you would index the following >(it's a Web site): > > @Bat (The Official Site of Major League Baseball) > >CINDEX sorts "@Bat" under B (ignoring the "@" symbol); however, I'm >wondering whether or not it would make sense to sort it under A as well (as >if were spelled out - at bat). BTW, I also have an entries for baseball >statistics and sports statistics. > >Any indexers who are baseball fans??? ;-) > >Looking forward to hearing from you .... Lori Hello Lori: I would index "@Bat" in a "Symbols" or, preferably, a "Special Characters" section at the top of the index, doublepost it at or cross-refer to it from the "at bat" location in the A's, not post it in the B's at all, and probably post it as a subheading under "baseball" and perhaps under "baseball statistics" as well. Since most of the leading symbols I index have names I sort them as spelled out in the "Special Characters" section, and if they stand alone, like a single "@", I include their names in qualifiers: "@ (at sign)". Thus we might have Special Characters * (asterisk) @ (at sign) @Bat (Official Major League Baseball Web site) \ (backslash) A asterisk (*) at sign (@) @Bat. _See_ @Bat (Official Major League Baseball Web site) _in "Special Characters" section_ B backslash (\) baseball @Bat (Official Major League Baseball Web site) subheading subheading etc. All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:53:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: USDA course address request I'd appreciate someone sending me the office address and phone number of the U.S. Department of Agriculture indexing course. Thanks, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:12:23 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Subject: Re: reduced payment offer and serious frustration In a message dated 98-04-30 18:02:16 EDT, you write: << And if the author is just handling the book as an employee of the press, why should he care what the amount is (assuming it's not coming out of his pocket--which, if it is, well, again, that's double dipping and I don't think the IRS and their 20 factors that differentiate between employee and independent contractor would look very kindly at that). >> As a matter of fact Larry, it is coming out of his pocket! Which means, you're right, we are looking at a conflict of interest here. Oh well. It's resolved as far as I'm concerned. And that's what counts to me; I'm getting paid for the product I provided. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:43:42 -0400 Reply-To: brocindx@catskill.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Organization: Broccoli Information Management Subject: Re: USDA course address request This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B396A83311CE123E2851B99C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Brackney wrote: > I'd appreciate someone sending me the office address and phone number of the > U.S. Department of Agriculture indexing course. > > Thanks, > > Michael > > Brackney Indexing Service > 134 Kathleen Way > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 530-272-7088 Here you go Michael: Graduate School, USDA Room 1112, South Agriculture Building 14th St. and Independence Ave., SW Washington, DC 20250-9911 --------------B396A83311CE123E2851B99C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Kevin Broccoli Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Kevin Broccoli n: Broccoli;Kevin org: Broccoli Information Management adr;dom: 181 Sundown Rd.;;;Grahamsville;NY;12740; email;internet: brocindx@catskill.net title: Director note: http://members.aol.com/tennwords/BroccoliInformationManagement/BIM.html x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------B396A83311CE123E2851B99C-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:26:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: sorting question Batting this question around: I would index it under the @ symbol and cross-reference it with "Bat. See @bat" Not perfect, but doable. rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:33:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli Subject: Re: sorting question In a message dated 98-04-30 20:19:07 EDT, 76620.456@compuserve.com writes: > @Bat (The Official Site of Major League Baseball) > > CINDEX sorts "@Bat" under B (ignoring the "@" symbol); however, I'm > wondering whether or not it would make sense to sort it under A as well (as > if were spelled out - at bat). BTW, I also have an entries for baseball > statistics and sports statistics. > > Any indexers who are baseball fans??? ;-) Lori, To me the name of the Web site is clearly a play on the phrase "at bat," so I would index it first as if spelled out that way. I'd probably also double post it under B for those readers who realize that symbols are not used in sorting, but that would be a second choice. I suspect most people would look for the entry according to how they say it. Fred