From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:53:53.15 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705E" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:45 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705E" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:03:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. At 10:35 AM 5/28/97 -0400, Peg Mauer wrote: >Ah! This is a different question! I've had this problem with clients, but not >necessarily anything to do with embedded index entries. I've had clients that >insisted that the manual had 95 indexable pages, while I felt strongly that >it had 100 or 110 indexable pages. (they didn't count pages with full page >illustrations, maps, partial page, etc.) That was with a publisher who was >paying $3.00/page, so I didn't think it was worth squabbling about; I gave in >to their page count because I liked the kind of books that I was indexing for >them. Perhaps my situation is unusual; I can't recall the last time I had an editor question my page count. I don't do embedded indexes, nor do I print out pages from the client's disk, so there can't be a disagreement about the physical number of pages...only about what is considered "indexable." Either I have particularly trusting clients, or my numbers seem okay to them, as it has never been an issue. Most editors I work with are far too busy to actually thumb through page proofs to see whether page 147 is a full-page chart, or whether there is more than 50% coverage by a photo on page 203. I generally state a per-page rate, then provide an estimate based on their projected final page count (frequently I get pages in batches and nobody knows until the very end just how many there will be). The estimated figure (say, $1500) is what makes or breaks the deal, not how much I charge per page. If the editor's budget is $2000 and I come in $500 below that figure, I could be charging $5 a page and he/she wouldn't care. Ditto about exactly how many indexable pages there are...it just doesn't seem to matter, as long as the total price works within the budget. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:03:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall At 01:07 AM 5/28/97 -0400, LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: >When I hit the wall, I don't see a garbled index so much as I see garbled >words. I lose my ability to recognize correct spelling, and the most common >words look ridiculous. I am doing an author index for a psychology textbook. I don't think there is a single Smith or Jones in this entire index, which will come to about 1500 entries (for authors alone). Recognize the spelling? Are you nuts? It's a miracle if I can eke out 10 WPM on the keyboard, while attempting to spell these incredible names AND match them to the proper page references. :-( My personal feeling is that author indexes, except in very rare situations, serve mainly to massage the egos of one's colleagues, who will of course turn immediately to that section to see if you quoted them. My fee increases for this sort of nonsensical work, but right now even $100 an hour doesn't seem like enough while I am sweating away at the keyboard and it is 95 degrees outside. Crab, crab, crab... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:38:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Multiple indexes In-Reply-To: <199705281606.JAA23669@mx2.u.washington.edu> And may I point out that multiple indexes is the common practice for European scholarly publications. Listing, for example, all the linguistic material in one place, all the personal names in another can be quite useful. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:48:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Foreign terms In-Reply-To: <199705282030.NAA06537@mx5.u.washington.edu> Re: Hebrew terms. I handle this kind of things by having an entry entitled: Hebrew (terms): with all the Hebrew transliterations following. Translations of the terms used in the book would be elsewhere in the index. For example: I have an entry Chinese (terms):... Po-ho [characters].... etc., etc., and one under the "Hundred Together" Lily in a current index. This follows European practice. Actually, the lily in question is mostly called Po-ho or L. martagon in the text, but explained as "hundred together" in one place, the literal meaning of the Chinese name. Complicated, could be worse....There is po-ts'ai also known as pai-ts'ai also known as Bokchoy...., all of which names are used in the text (fortunately no "white vegetable"). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:15:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cross-refs In a message dated 97-05-28 15:42:51 EDT, Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com (Carol Roberts) writes: << experience vs. concept See perspective perspective, linear perspective, multiple-station-point >> Carol, I'd use experience vs. concept See entries beginning "perspective" That lets the reader know right away that there will be multiple entries. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:22:50 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Embedded indexing - page counts The point here as I see it is that an embedded index _has_ no page count in the conventional sense. If the publisher chooses to print the whole document out on one huge page numbered "Page 1", then the index will appear with every reference pointing to page 1. If the publisher chooses to break the same document into, say, 20 pages, then the index will print out with page references from 1-20. If those 20 pages are copied on to the end of an existing 300-page document, then the references will run from 301-321. The page numbering in the index is not fixed until the moment of printing, so clearly page counts will vary. What about charging by the number of words, which should remain the same regardless of how the document is laid out for printing? It shouldn't be hard to agree on the 'standard' number of words that make up a hypothetical page. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:13:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Indexer Web pages Hi, In the last 24 hours I was informed by my ISP that my "personal web page" was a "commercial" site & therefore I was expected to pay triple my monthly charges for ISP services. Since my site was primarily an annotated listing of links with my resume tacked on as a separate page, I couldn't justify the added expense. In the e-mail I received I was told I could retain a personal page if I removed mention of "services" for which there is a price. This morning I deleted the resume from my directory & removed the link to it on my home page. My question is how others who have home pages describing indexing deal with this issue? Do your ISPs have clear policies about when a site crosses the line from "personal" to "commericial? Thanks, Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com http://www.chesco.com/~nanguent (the page being questioned -- accessible for now) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:37:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Foreign terms Barbara wrote: >I am indexing a book with many Hebrew terms used both in transliteration and >in translation, and I find myself creating main entries for the terms based >primarily on the author's use of the terms. > >Where the term is used consistently in the text in transliteration, I find >myself creating the index entry with the italicized word followed by a >parenthetic translation, if one is given in the text. (Double-posting if >necessary.) > >When the author uses an English word in the text, especially where the >English term covers one or more Hebrew terms or where the translation is not >equivalent (so the author choses the English term we will understand, but >indicates the Hebrew equivalents), I find myself using the English term as a >main entry, sometimes with one or more Hebrew terms parenthetically... > (Double-posting only where actual Hebrew equivalents exist.) I'm inclined to suggest using cross-references rather than double-posting in most cases. For instance, if the term "yesher hara" is used consistently in the text, I would cross-ref from "evil inclination." That way if there are multiple English terms used for one Hebrew one, the reader only has to go to one place--and will by reading the book come to know the Herbrew term. I wouldn't bother with putting the Hebrew or English terms in parentheses if they are in the index already. That way terms that are best left in English can be cross-ref'd from several Hebrew terms, and the index won't look cluttered. I don't see this as inconsistency, but as logical ordering of information in two languages so as to make it accessible, which is what our role is as indexers. Hope this helps, Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:48:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Multiple indexes In-Reply-To: <199705291150.EAA07003@mx5.u.washington.edu> I would second this comment. Most of the discussion on this topic has related to BOB indexes; but journals are a different matter. In a journal index users are often searching for articles by a particular author (who may be #7 out of 15). And for the official journal of a professional association there may often be entries for a particular name both as an author and as a subject. A single index requires different typefaces to distinguish between the two types of entries, and it's often simpler both for indexers and users simply to use two indexes. In either case, headnotes are mandatory. It's also not much more time-consuming to create 2 indexes using Cindex; I simply create two files, keep both open, and flip between the two depending on which index I'm working in. Since spelling of names have to be verified individually in the final edit, it's actually easier to edit a separate author index; just do a page number sort and go make to the original pages to verify the spelling of each author's name. The Cindex spell checker works fine on the subject index; but spell checking a name index is definitely a manual process. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Wed, 28 May 1997, P. Buell wrote: > And may I point out that multiple indexes is the common practice for > European scholarly publications. Listing, for example, all the linguistic > material in one place, all the personal names in another can be quite > useful. Paul D. Buell > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:00:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Foreign terms My solution has been to double post the terms, but *without* the use of the parenthetical term in the other language. In other words, I've just given the term in both places, providing 2 points of entry to the text, one from either language. I have not used the index for didactic purposes, in this case -- ie, to teach the person both languages. One could make a point for such a didactic use of the index, but I'm not sure I like it. In my case, I made my decision because the publisher (my client) imposed length/space limitations . This was the most space-effective solution that did not short-change the researcher/reader. It keeps the entries short, and without turnover lines (in most cases), which lengthen the index immeasurably. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:03:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall In a message dated 97-05-29 07:54:18 EDT, you write: > My fee increases > for this sort of nonsensical work, but right now even $100 an hour doesn't > seem like enough while I am sweating away at the keyboard and it is 95 > degrees outside. Ah, does anyone else have the urge to charge what I call Annoyance fees? Where I feel like charging double because the client has made the project very difficult with arcane tool demands, or putting into the process constraints that just delay the project and annoy me? I don't ever do it, but I think about it. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:16:54 -0700 Reply-To: jvanhoose@sams.mcp.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jvh Subject: Re: Embedded indexing - page counts Jonathan Jermey wrote: > > The point here as I see it is that an embedded index _has_ no page count > in the conventional sense. If the publisher chooses to print the whole > document out on one huge page numbered "Page 1", then the index will > appear with every reference pointing to page 1. If the publisher chooses > to break the same document into, say, 20 pages, then the index will print > out with page references from 1-20. If those 20 pages are copied on to the > end of an existing 300-page document, then the references will run from > 301-321. The page numbering in the index is not fixed until the moment of > printing, so clearly page counts will vary. > > What about charging by the number of words, which should remain the same > regardless of how the document is laid out for printing? It shouldn't be > hard to agree on the 'standard' number of words that make up a > hypothetical page. > > Jonathan. I think Jonathan is speaking here of page *references* in the index not *read*, pages. I do only embedded indexing as an in-house indexer, and in order to anticipate the length of time a job will take, we use the number of read pages. When I send out work to freelancers (which is always embedded) their pay is based on read pages. These read pages are based not on the printout but the page count shown by the word processing or DTP program when the chapter is opened. Johnna VanHoose Manager of Indexing Sams Publishing A Division of Macmillan Computer Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:35:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Foreign terms Janet, But what do you do if the foreign term has more than one English equivalent, and the author has chosen one equivalent to emphasize in the text? Don't you have to provide the parenthetic translation to avoid confusion for users of the index?? Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:44:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rashidah Z. Hakeem" Subject: Re: Foreign terms In-Reply-To: <9705282024.AA14142@bme1.utmem.edu> Esteemed collective, I have been lurking and learning for some time. I hope this comment will be helpful. I would create a separate index of Hebrew words and phrases in transliteration. It would be desirable to include the terms in the actual language, however, I don't know if indexing software in general can incorporate foreign language scripts. On Wed, 28 May 1997, Barbara Cohen wrote: > Dear Index-Lers: > > I haven't exactly hit a wall today, but I have stumbled across a problem in > my current project that I'd like to air for discussion. > > I have a question about the treatment of foreign terms in a book written in > English: > > I am indexing a book with many Hebrew terms used both in transliteration and > in translation, and I find myself creating main entries for the terms based > primarily on the author's use of the terms. > > Where the term is used consistently in the text in transliteration, I find > myself creating the index entry with the italicized word followed by a > parenthetic translation, if one is given in the text. (Double-posting if > necessary.) > > When the author uses an English word in the text, especially where the > English term covers one or more Hebrew terms or where the translation is not > equivalent (so the author choses the English term we will understand, but > indicates the Hebrew equivalents), I find myself using the English term as a > main entry, sometimes with one or more Hebrew terms parenthetically... > (Double-posting only where actual Hebrew equivalents exist.) > > I am neither inclined to slavishly double-post every entry nor to convert > every entry to "Hebrew transliteration (English)" or "English (Hebrew)" > format for the sake of consistency... I have been double-posting the > important terms for which equivalents in either language make sense as terms > to be looked up in the index (a judgment call if ever there was one). But > sometimes the foreign language term is used precisely because no adequate > English equivalent exists (or there is some discussion of the correct > equivalent--often alluded to in the voluminous notes to this sort of text). > > I have had this happen in other books with foreign language terms (I am > thinking of some books on Buddhism that I've indexed, in which the > English-language "equivalents" are not used precisely because they are not > really equivalent terms....) and I am wondering if there is a good rule of > thumb someone has devised to help clarify the judgments I am making. > > In looking over my draft index, I am thinking that it looks as though I have > been inconsistent, when in fact I have been adhering as much as common sense > and indexing experience allows to the author's nuanced use of terms. > > I've been trying to be sensitive to the author's specific vocabulary rather > than imposing a slavish but perhaps not useful consistency. I have been > justifying this as sensitive indexing, but it occurrs to me that this could > be construed as my not knowing how to index (a la the discussions here of > looking at other people's indexes and passing judgment)! > > So, what do other indexers do about this? (Most of the rules I see about this > sort of thing don't seem to take into account the kind of nuanced language > that the books I work on abound in.) > > (Some days I long for books with good old plain English and clear subject > sentences in every paragraph....) > > Barbara > ******************************************************************************** Rashidah Z. Hakeem, M L S rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org M E C C A (Memphis Educational Computer Connectivity Alliance) http://www.mecca.org/ LeMoyne-Owen College voice: (901) 942-6227 fax: (901) 942-6272 ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:49:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cross-refs Carol wrote: > Rather than making a >cross-ref. to each kind of perspective (I might end up with more than 2 >before I'm done), I'm tempted to make a general cross-ref. to >"perspective," trusting that the reader will see that there are several >entries for "perspective": Good question! One way to solve it is to make your see reference to perspective ^headings^ (headings is in italics). I just did this in my history of jazz book, in which I had headings like these: Black frustration/alienation Black jazz musicians Black mass audiences Black musical folkways And: African Americans. ^See^ Black ^headings^ Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:49:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple indexes The argument that readers have been proven not to understand or use multiple indexes has given me pause, I admit. But I find the arguments on the other side convincing, too. Multiple indexes can meet multiple reader needs. For instance, in the college textbooks I index, the name index will be used by other authors looking each other up to see if they were cited (you may laugh, but this is important in the world of research and tenure) while the subject index will be used by students studying, selection committees reviewing, and professors assigning. Huge amounts of information like name citations or the internet resources in the example we're talking about can clog up a subject index and, in my opinion, make it less usable. I think a running head is a good idea. So what about the fact that some readers won't find all the indexes? The problem is that in one of the usability studies, they found that readers don't understand cross references, either. Does this mean that we have to stop connecting related concepts and gathering information together in the index? I don't think so. I agree with Virginia that at some point the index becomes a tool that the reader must learn how to use. Our job is to make that process as clear and easy as possible. Do Mi P.S. And a reality check: I don't think I have EVER been the one to make the choice about multiple or single indexes. The publisher decides and I do it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:55:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Foreign terms In-Reply-To: <199705291640.JAA03126@mx3.u.washington.edu> Barbara: isn't the situation you describe a classic case for the use of see also. For example, Bokchoi. See also pai-ts'ai, po-ts'ai, Chinese Cabbage. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Foreign terms Barbara asked me: << But what do you do if the foreign term has more than one English equivalent, and the author has chosen one equivalent to emphasize in the text? Don't you have to provide the parenthetic translation to avoid confusion for users of the index?? >> Barbara, I guess in that situation you would. It hasn't come up with this publisher, so I don't use the parenthetic translation. If it did, given the need to keep it short, I'd have a problem, I guess. In that case, my need for "indexing purity" would conflict with the client's need for a short index of a certain length. It would then require working out with the client. If length of the index isn't a problem, then using the parenthetic translation would be a good solution. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:04:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Foreign terms Barb wrote: >I am indexing a book with many Hebrew terms used both in transliteration and >in translation, and I find myself creating main entries for the terms based >primarily on the author's use of the terms. (details snipped) Barb, I would do ^exactly^ what you are doing. This comes up for me frequently, and I always follow the author's usage in the text, with see references from other forms. If the author uses the English and original terms interchangeably, I usually default to the original (foreign) term. <> I've been thinking a lot about the contradiction that comes up between consistency and following the book's context. I think really good indexing follows the context of the text, being as consistent as possible within that context, and creating consistency through cross-references. But it does often seem like a rock and a hard place. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:06:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Foreign terms In-Reply-To: <199705290501.AAA18658@mixcom.mixcom.com> Barbara, I do what you seem to be doing. I've indexed a number of books that had a lot of German words and recently one that had tons of Spanish words and song titles, and yes I had to make just those sorts of judgment calls. Rather than worry about the appearance of consistency, I take each entry on a case-by-case basis and do whatever I think will help the reader. Often I add a headnote about it, so it will not simply look like inconsistency but something I've thought about. I will usually point something like this out to my client in the cover letter I send back with the index. I tend to concern myself with being judged by readers of the book and by my client but not by other indexers. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:13:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages Hi! I'm a new indexer, and I plan on getting serious about my business following an upcoming military move (to North Carolina) in July. I'm starting to think about a web page, and I'd like some opinions on a couple of Internet matters. First, of those of you who have web pages, how many host your own (either on your own server--way expensive!--or by way of virtual hosting with an ISP) and how many have put your web page on your ISP's server? Second, I have been an AOL subscriber for almost 3 years, sometimes out of satisfaction with the service and sometimes out of a lack of energy for going elsewhere. I know that a couple of years ago, AOLers were the object of some scorn in the Internet world. But I haven't heard the term "newbies" applied to us in some time, so perhaps that is going away. Basically, I guess my question (which sounds so very junior-high now that I'm typing it) is: would people look down their noses at a site listed as "aol.members.com/bonald/indexing" or something similar to that? Bonnie Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:39:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages In reply to Bonnie's question: > Second, I have been an AOL subscriber for almost 3 years, sometimes out of > satisfaction with the service and sometimes out of a lack of energy for going > elsewhere. I know that a couple of years ago, AOLers were the object of some > scorn in the Internet world. But I haven't heard the term "newbies" applied > to us in some time, so perhaps that is going away. Basically, I guess my > question (which sounds so very junior-high now that I'm typing it) is: would > people look down their noses at a site listed as > "aol.members.com/bonald/indexing" or something similar to that? Bonnie, The only thing that I would mention is that it will instantly point out that you are operating on a "low budget". Hosting a web site as a virtual domain is not a lot more expensive ($360/yr. or less), but it usually gives a much more professional appearance and also more flexibility. For instance you can have many forwarded email addresses such as bonnie@bonnieswebsite.com etc. which all give the "perception" of a substantial business. If you don't use AOL for anything other than email there are probably cheaper alternatives that will give you fewer busy signals also. Happy Indexing and good luck! Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:31:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: perspective (Sorry about the weird line breakups in my previous posts--hope this one = is better!) In answer to Carol Robert's question about cross-referencing a topic that applies to both perspective in general and to types of perspective, I think the the problem would vanish if you follow the recommended way of avoiding third level subheadings. This would be to ma= ke the types of perspective be main headings rather than subheadings. Then create see-also cross-references to them from the broader topic, perspective, e.g.perspective, see also linear perspective; multiple station-point perspective. Also, while I'm still puzzling out my own standard each time I index, I appreciate all the responses to my question about duplicating page number= s for a heading and its subheadings. It's been interesting reading them. Thanks for the thoughts shared! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Arizona ASI meeting Mark your calendars! The next meeting of the Arizona Chapter of the American Society of Indexers will be held as follows: Date/time: Saturday, June 14th, at noon* Location: The News Cafe, 5053 North 44th Street, Phoenix* (NE corner of Camelback Road and 44th Street) (for those coming up on I-10, the Hohokam Expressway empties into 44th Street going northbound. Also accessible from Loop 202. Straight up 44th Stree= t to Camelback) Program: Recap of ASI Winston-Salem Conference and Workshops, Report on Indexing Workshop by DoMi Stauber, discussion of future programming *Please note new date and location. For more information contact: Nan Badgett phone: 520-825-2892 email: NBadgett@compuserve.com or Janet Perlman = phone: 602-569-7302 = email: Jperlman@aol.com = ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:42:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: foreign terms I do what Janet does--double-post the terms with no parenthetical translation. I do a lot of books with Japanese or Arabic terms, and a one-word translation just isn't possible for many words. If the reader gets confused about which meaning is the one used in the text, she can find out by looking up the reference. Readers who know enough to look up the word probably know what it means anyway, and your simple translation may look silly to them. I explain that this is how I do it on the first job of this type that I do for a given publisher, and I ask if that is OK with them. However, if the English term is not used on the page and is not obvious from context, I'll cross-reference from the English term to the foreign one so that the reader will know what to look for. And if the foreign term is only used once but the English word is used all over the place, then I'll cross-reference from the foreign term to the English one. But the latter types often get cut to save space--readers who really need to know the meaning of this word can go to a dictionary instead. My job is not to make the book an all-purpose reference tool (unless it IS supposed to be an all-purpose reference), but to point the reader to information unique to the book. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:05:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages In a message dated 97-05-29 18:30:26 EDT, Bonnie wrote: > I know that a couple of years ago, AOLers were the object of some > scorn in the Internet world. But I haven't heard the term "newbies" applied > to us in some time, so perhaps that is going away. Bonnie, Now that WebTV has been unleashed on the Internet, that whole thing about us AOLers has gone away. If you've ever seen some of the Usenet postings from WebTV addresses (from folks who don't even have computers), we AOLers looked like erudite UNIX geeks by comparison. ;-D >Basically, I guess my > question (which sounds so very junior-high now that I'm typing it) is: would > people look down their noses at a site listed as > "aol.members.com/bonald/indexing" or something similar to that? Not at all, IMHO. AOL is the largest of the online services and I'm seeing URLs for AOLers' Web sites all over the place. Go for it!!! :-) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:26:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Didactic use of index Janet, Would you also consider the following use of parentheticals didactic? ALA. See American Library Association (ALA) American Library Association (ALA) Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Cross-refs In-Reply-To: <199705300502.AAA21167@mixcom.mixcom.com> > Black frustration/alienation > Black jazz musicians > Black mass audiences > Black musical folkways > >And: African Americans. ^See^ Black ^headings^ > Do Mi, I like this suggestion and Fred's. I'd have to look long and hard at how the italics look in context. This is a great example, but it reveals a potential hazard, having the word "Black" taken as descriptive of the headings rather than *as* a heading. Don't laugh. I'd also wonder how well the reader would be able to see that the middle term is in rom. rather than ital., and whether an editor would think this was a mistake and change it. Do you alert your editor when you use this technique? What do you think of this alternative? African Americans. ^See "Black" headings^ Thanks for the suggestion. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Cross-refs In-Reply-To: <199705300502.AAA21167@mixcom.mixcom.com> ) In answer to Carol Robert's question about cross-referencing a >topic that applies to both perspective in general and to types of >perspective, I think the the problem would vanish if you follow the >recommended way of avoiding third level subheadings. This would be to ma= >ke >the types of perspective be main headings rather than subheadings. Then >create see-also cross-references to them from the broader topic, >perspective, e.g.perspective, see also linear perspective; multiple >station-point perspective. Thanks, but could you tell me what source you are citing that says this is *the* recommended method? I'm not being contentious; I just don't remember reading any explicit rule about this. In this case, I wanted to keep the "perspective" entries together in the index and not have the adjectives out front. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:26:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Wordperfect 6.1 Are there any Wordperfect 6.1 experts out there who would be willing to advise an eager upgrader? I'm basically competent, having upgraded from 5.1, but I want to polish it, use macros and keep my hands on the keyboard as much as possible. I'm looking for people willing to answer occasional questions like "I can't get the bullet numbers to increment, what am I doing wrong?" Takers? Email me privately, please. Thanks in advance!! Do Mi Stauber DStaub11@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:10:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CKelso Organization: Pre-installed Company Subject: Re: Wordperfect 6.1 DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > > Are there any Wordperfect 6.1 experts out there who would be willing to > advise an eager upgrader? I'm basically competent, having upgraded from 5.1, > but I want to polish it, use macros and keep my hands on the keyboard as much > as possible. I'm looking for people willing to answer occasional questions > like "I can't get the bullet numbers to increment, what am I doing wrong?" > > Takers? Email me privately, please. Thanks in advance!! > > Do Mi Stauber > DStaub11@aol.com Greetings, Do Mi, and other friends: Please don't keep these goodies to yourself! I'm new to Wordperfect 6.1 and would love to see some indexing tips specific to the program. While we're at it, just how many experienced Indexers out there use a word processing program (vs. an indexing program?) ... A show of hands, if you would - Thanks, Cheryl Kelso ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:00:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Kniss Subject: Feedback on Page Locator Format for Continuous vs. Noncontinuous Discussions Thanks to those of you who responded off-list to my post a couple of weeks ago regarding page locator format for continuous vs. noncontinuous discussions on consecutive pages. Sorry it has taken me so long to report back to the list. I received 12 responses, and a summary is below. By way of a refresher, I had asked people to respond as to which of the two practices (outlined below) they regularly use: Practice A - I DO NOT make any distinction between continuous and noncontinuous discussions of a topic on consecutive pages. I utilize a page range format instead of a string of separate page numbers, i.e. 34-36 instead of 34, 35, 36. Practice B - I DO make a distinction between continuous and noncontinuous discussions of a topic on consecutive pages. I list the page numbers separately instead of a page range format, i.e. 34, 35, 36 instead of 34-36. The majority of the respondents first pointed out that they go by the publishers preference on this (if the publisher has one). Otherwise, 9 of the 12 regulary use Practice B. Two of these 9 mentioned they make exceptions from this for huge strings of locators which are hard to split into entries . . . in these cases they link them into the page range format. Another of the 9 mentioned sometimes she has to use the page range format if there are space restrictions. Another of the 9 referenced the British Standard 3700:1988 which recommends each page be listed out and the use of "passim:" is not recommended. He also mentioned this format is likely part of international standards which recently have been worked on. Of the remaining 3 respondents, one regularly uses Practice A, one uses both A and B depending on the text, and the last uses A and B based upon the wishes of the editor of the project (she works for a large publisher on a variety of projects). One person had a question on photographs: "I am not sure which to use when it comes to photographs. Should I use 34-35 when the photos are separate or just when pages 34 and 35 have a photo spread." I have just run into this with one editor, who decided they wanted the photos separate so the reader would not anticipate a double page photo spread. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Again, thanks to those who responded to my question . . . it confirmed my novice thoughts that it's best to list the page numbers separately instead of conflating them into a page range format (of course this is dependent upon the editor's wishes). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:18:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Didactic use of index >Would you also consider the following use of parentheticals didactic? > ALA. See American Library Association (ALA) > American Library Association (ALA) I usually don't include those acronyms in the see references--I think it's redundant. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:28:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Call for Proposals * CALL FOR PROPOSALS * FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Lori Lathrop (303)567-4447, ext. 28 e-mail - 76620.456@compuserve.com The American Society of Indexers (ASI) 30th Annual Conference - May 13-16, 1998 Cavanaugh's Inn - Seattle, Washington The American Society of Indexers (ASI) is currently accepting proposals for presentations at its 30th Annual Conference, which will be held May 13-16, 1998, at Cavanaugh's Inn in downtown Seattle. The theme of the 1998 Annual Conference is "New Frontiers in Indexing." It will feature a variety of topics, including: - managing large indexing projects - indexing Web documents - indexing online documents - indexing CD-ROM documents - creating keywords for online Help - globalization and translation issues in indexing - new indexing tools - indexing newspapers - database indexing - editing indexes - the business of indexing - fascinating indexing projects Your proposal should contain the following information: 1, Your name, address, phone/fax numbers, and e-mail address 2. A brief bio (less than 150 words) that describes your qualifications and experience 3. Format (select one of the following): Presentation, Panel discussion, or Workshop 4. Title of your proposed presentation, panel discussion, or workshop 5. If you are proposing a workshop, indicate how long it will be (for example, it may be 2 hours, 4 hours, or 8 hours) 6. Equipment requirements 7. A one-page abstract describing your presentation, panel discussion, workshop, or group activities (if any). Presentations and panel discussions should be 20-45 minutes and should allow 10-15 minutes for questions from the audience. Workshops may be between 2 and 8 hours in length. Submit proposals to: Lori Lathrop '98 ASI Annual Conference P.O. Box 3065 Idaho Springs, CO 80452 The deadline for submitting proposals is September 1, 1997. Acceptance letters will be sent by November 1, 1997. *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:47:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Didactic use of index Like Do Mi, I don't the acronym into the "see" cross reference. It adds unnecessary length to the entry, and the searcher can find the heading referred to without it. Whether the acronym is added to the subsequent main entry is often a question of publisher's style. My preference is to add the acronym after the full name, but I do have clients who prefer not to have it added. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:47:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wordperfect 6.1 Cheryl wrote: >While we're at it, just how many experienced Indexers out there use a >word processing program (vs. an indexing program?) ... A show of hands, >if you would - Clarification: I ^don't^ create my indexes in Wordperfect--I use Macrex. I finish them off and ship them in Wordperfect, however, and do client letters, invoices, statistics, editing notes, workshop design, handouts.....I always have WP and Macrex running at the same time, toggling back and forth with Alt-Tab. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Feedback on Page Locator Format for Continuous vs. Noncontinuous Discussions Elizabeth wrote: > >One person had a question on photographs: "I am not sure which to use when >it comes to photographs. Should I use 34-35 when the photos are separate or >just when pages 34 and 35 have a photo spread." I have just run into this >with one editor, who decided they wanted the photos separate so the reader >would not anticipate a double page photo spread. Does anyone else have any >thoughts on this? > For photos or illustrations, I agree with that editor: I don't continue the locator unless the photo (table, figure) is itself continued. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:00:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: Wordperfect 6.1 Sent this earlier to Do Mi, then realized that it might help others, so here it is again. Sorry about the duplicate, Do Mi. For those looking for WordPerfect help, did you know there's an e-mail list? I usually work in Word (and I can make it jump through big-time hoops), but sometimes am required to use WordPerfect (it's big in the Canadian government). Besides asking experienced colleagues for help, I sometimes subscribe to the WPWIN list for the duration of a project. Here's how: You can subscribe to it as an e-mail list by sending a message to LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu with the message subscribe wpwin-l in the body of the message, and no signature line. (OK, you probably knew that.) It can also be accessed as a newsgroup (which means you don't have to wade through mail unless you want to). The newsgroup is called bit.listserv.wpwin-l Hope this helps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer, trainer Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "My own boss: when I talk, *I* listen!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:57:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Snoozers Craig, I almost missed your e-mail note. How interesting---especially since I live in St. Louis (Webster Groves) and am trying to market myself in indexing. I would love to see the article (I may not be able to find the Riverfront Times May 21-27 issue). If you would be interested in subcontracting any work in my direction, I'd be most appreciative. My areas are mainly in the humanities/liberal arts. 'Hope to hear from you. Thelda Bertram 611 Eckrich Pl. St. Louis, MO 63119 961-1874 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:45:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Didactic use of index Janet, Of course, not putting the acronym into the 'see' reference will cause Cindex to spit it out upon VERIFY as a non-match. Does that mean you just 'put up' with this reminder or is there a way to shut it off? Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich.