From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 13-AUG-1997 12:25:17.33 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9707E" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:05:21 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9707E" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:30:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Tristram Subject: Re: Online indexing I index in the corporate world, and we use Interleaf 5. We are supposed to be phasing out 5 and going to Interleaf 6 (unfortunately, the indexing feature for Interleaf 6 has a lot of bugs). Jill Tristram ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:56:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chantal Hamill Organization: Steedman Ramage Subject: Re: LAW INDEXES Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli wrote: > > Does anyone know where (perhaps on-line) I can browse through some legal > indexes. I am working on my first one and would like to see how other > indexers dealt with certain situations. > > Kevin A. BroccoliI would not do it without some specialist knowledge of the law. It is not something you improvise. And if you have any specialist knowledge, you must have access to some law indexes. Chantal Hamill law indexer 128 Gowanbank Livingston EH54 6EW Scotland. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:16:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: headings for beyond 2000 I think the subject needs to begin with 2000 what about? Dates 2000 plus At 04:27 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Shocking that this hasn't come up on INDEX-L yet... > >How would you word an entry for computer software & operating systems that >support dates beyond the year 2000? > > Dates > post-2000 > > Dates > 2000 and beyond > > Dates > beyond 2000 > >I'm leaning towards the last. Any opinions? Other ideas? I'd love to >hear 'em. 8-) > > -Kari > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Kari J. Bero >Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 >3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com >Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:49:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Willa Sorry to post this to the list, but... I tried to send mail to you, Willa, but there is some kind of problem. I'll try again later. Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:53:55 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Malcolm X and other cases where users don't know where to look I agree with Pam that there should be a reference from X, Malcolm to Malcolm X. The fact that the question was ever asked on Index-L shows that there are alternatives for indexing, and therefore alternatives for searchers. It doesn't matter which we think is correct. Also, the fact that Library of Congress Subject Headings uses X, Malcolm, means that some users might be familiar with that format. To assume that there is any shared understanding between us all about form of entry, filing rules, etc, is impossible. I recently looked up the phone number of The Australian (a newspaper) in the White Pages (alphabetic phone book). I looked under A, but found it under T. A recent letter to the Sydney Morning Herald bemoaned the fact that the writer had to look under N for the NSW Dept of Sport and Recreation, instead of under S where she thought it belonged. The only way around these problems is to use see refs or double entries. Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:29:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: LAW INDEXES -Reply Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli wrote: > > Does anyone know where (perhaps on-line) I can browse through some legal > indexes. I am working on my first one and would like to see how other > indexers dealt with certain situations. I work as an indexer for a legal publishing company. Most of the big law publishers either have their own indexers on staff or list of outsourcers, and most of us have law degrees (all of us here at Michie do). I would suggest going to your local library and looking in the legal reference section for a publication that matches the type of publication you are working on (casebook, hornbook, treatise, statute set, rule set, etc.). Most public libraries have them, if they don't have separate law libraries. Law publishing is one world where the Dead Tree Edition still rules (although our parent company, Lexis-Nexis would like to alter that equation!). Any publication by any of the bigger names-- Michie, West (although I HATE to tout the competition! :-) ), Lawyer's Coop, etc. will have good representational legal indexes. If you would like to ask any further questions off line, you can e-mail me directly at sharonw@michie.com. Good luck! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:00:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: headings for beyond 2000 One of the programmer shorthand terms is "Y2K." It won't do as a main heading but I would consider using it as a See reference. Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: textbook indexing Chris Carr asked: >1. In the introduction, the authors included a lengthy discussion about why >they use real companies as examples in exercises, etc. In Mulvaney's book, >it says exercises at the end of the chapter are not usually indexed. The >index of this book includes the real companies in the exercises for the first >chapter or two, then leaves them out. Poor planning? Would this be done? I >mean, would anyone index those pages *only* for company names and not any >other content? I have one textbook-publisher client who wants *all* real company names to be indexed, no matter where they are (except publishers of works referenced.) However, I think I would get in trouble if I only did this for the first few chapters! >2. It appears (I haven't checked it completely) that notes within discussion >boxes are not indexed, except when it is one of the authors of the textbook >who is quoted. This seems inconsistent to me. To me as well - I think Peg must be right, that one of the authors indexed the book! >3. Sometimes I feel like I am only picking up terms in bold print, company >names, etc. Is this a common feeling with textbooks? Yes, the way textbooks are organized, I often find myself indexing mainly the headings and subheadings and the terms in bold. The level of detail is definitely not the same as in scholarly books. >4. The book uses one imaginary company in many examples over several >chapters. Again, it looks like the company name is indexed for the first 100 >pages or so, then is left out. I think I would leave it out completely. > Would you? Yes. My two cents. BTW, isn't this a good way to develop your own sense of what goes into an index? I worked on about 10 practice indexes, of different types of books, while finishing and immediately after the USDA course. I still had a lot to learn (I discovered as I got my first paid projects) but the practice gave me the confidence I needed to start marketing with some credibility. And I ended up with 3 or 4 sample indexes that I felt were good enough to send to potential clients. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: sfiferca@ngs.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Fifer Canby Organization: National Geographic Subject: job annoucement Form: Memo Text: (16 lines follow) JOB ANNOUCEMENT Exciting opportunity for an indexer at the National Geographic Society in Washington, DC to create indexes for print and interactive products. The position requires an individual who has knowledge of indexing and project management skills. The successful candidate will have a Masters in Library Science with index training or course work, a broad liberal arts education, strong writing skills and be detail oriented. Cindex, Endeavor, HTML programming experience a plus. The Society has excellent benefits, but will not pay re-location costs. Salary begins at $24-$28,000, depending on experience. Job available September 2. Send resume, salary history, and cover letter to: Human Resources, National Geographic Society, 1145 17th Street NW, Washington, DC or fax to 202-429-5735. Use Proportional Font: true Attachment Count: 0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:11:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: Online indexing You wrote: > >A question came up in the indexing and abstracting class I am teaching as to >what computer programs are used for online indexing. I would appreciate hearing from those of you who do online indexing as to what program(s) you work with. Thanks. > >Fred Leise >Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > The kind of online indexing I'm doing is on the Web. My current project is a practice run using a NASA pub I found online. Since this is public domain it won't be contested for any copyright issues that might come along with other kinds of publications. I hope to eventually upload it to my web site and use it as an example of what I can do. I'm still exploring the tools to make an online index work. I just got HTML/Prep from Leverage Tech. and have been using Webix and an HTML editor (Hotdog Pro) for turning out a www index. I'm using Cindex for indexing. The main problem I have is converting from the Cindex file formats available to a plain text file for the other utilities to work with. This is why I'm trying HTML/Prep and any other converters that I can find. Linda Sloan ************************************************** Linda Kenny Sloan Information Universe Editorial services for the space industry Editing, indexing, proofreading email indexer@ix.netcom.com URL http://pw1.netcom.com/~indexer/infouniv.htm ************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:19:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Re: headings for beyond 2000 -Reply One commonly used phrase for the Year 2000 problem is the "Millennium Bug." That one might reach people where 2000 or Year 2000 or Y2K or Two Thousand does not. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:21:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Mann Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content From my experience, satisfaction with a particular job is very much related to how well the book is written. I have learned not to assume I will either like or not like a book based simply on the subject matter. I've had projects that initially sounded fascinating, due to the subject matter and the title, but which I was most anxious to get finished with and back to the publisher. On the other hand, I've had projects that initially sounded dreadfully boring, but were well written; I ended up enjoying doing those books, and in most cases, learned something. Two examples--I did a book on development of conscience in infants and children. As a mom, I thought that sounded most interesting. Well, it turned out to be mostly mathematical tables, based on counting how many times infants cried in certain instances. It didn't make much sense to me at all. On the other hand, I did a textbook on sociological research methodology, which was written by a newspaper journalist who later became a professor. It was a very well-written book; I learned and enjoyed very much indexing it. I had an editor once make the statement to me that "it doesn't matter to you (an indexer) whether the book is well written or not." That prompted a discussion in which I told her it definitely makes a BIG difference to this indexer...and I proceeded to tell her why. Jean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:03:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content -Reply It has been my observation that poorly written books are much harder to index and at the same time are more dependent on having a high quality index. The index provides some of the organization, clarity, and consistency that the author neglected. >>> Jean Mann 07/29/97 11:21am >>> From my experience, satisfaction with a particular job is very much related to how well the book is written. I have learned not to assume I will either like or not like a book based simply on the subject matter. I've had projects that initially sounded fascinating, due to the subject matter and the title, but which I was most anxious to get finished with and back to the publisher. On the other hand, I've had projects that initially sounded dreadfully boring, but were well written; I ended up enjoying doing those books, and in most cases, learned something. Two examples--I did a book on development of conscience in infants and children. As a mom, I thought that sounded most interesting. Well, it turned out to be mostly mathematical tables, based on counting how many times infants cried in certain instances. It didn't make much sense to me at all. On the other hand, I did a textbook on sociological research methodology, which was written by a newspaper journalist who later became a professor. It was a very well-written book; I learned and enjoyed very much indexing it. I had an editor once make the statement to me that "it doesn't matter to you (an indexer) whether the book is well written or not." That prompted a discussion in which I told her it definitely makes a BIG difference to this indexer...and I proceeded to tell her why. Jean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:30:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content I do find that the interest in the content does increase job satisfaction. However, I find the interest hinges more on something being well-written or well-presented, than on the actual subject. almost any subject will do if it is well-done. Some of the areas in which I have become expert become eventually boring because of the lack of stimulation ( I don't have to do any work to understand them). The resulting indexes may be competent, but I doubt they are inspired. I feel that most of my best work has been in fields in which I know nothing (or next to nothing). It does provide that distance from the material that Pam Rider mentions, and since I love to learn, gives me a spur to providing a good map to the content. However, that only works if the books are not so advanced that they require an academic base to understand them! (I do occasionally turn down advanced technical/scientific material). Christine ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Documentation and Library Systems Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:32:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: counting entries In a message dated 97-07-29 03:06:25 EDT, you write: << IMO, it takes as much time to read a page and locate an appropriate entry on it the first time the subject comes up as it does the second or fifth time. The only difference is whether you need to type in a line of text...and in some cases, it's just as easy to type one or two words as it is to scroll back to the place where the original entry is and add a page number. If I were working on a per-entry rate today, I'd be certain that it was high enough to make the index come out to my usual per-page rate. Then it wouldn't be necessary to count page entries at all. >> This echoes my own opinion. I would not count entries as they are counted in Cindex. I have put in more work, having to locate, digest, and analyze the entry each time I enter a page number for it. And, I may have changed entries, editing them to consolidate them, etc. My vote goes for the per page number and definately not for the per line entry. I would not feel I was being paid for the work I'd done otherwise. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:19:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: headings for beyond 2000 In-Reply-To: <199707291215.FAA14932@mx4.u.washington.edu> Date strings, year 2000 problem ?? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:59:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content Personally, I don't like to index books on topics I'm too close to. I once indexed a book on dog training, which I was very enthusiastic about at first, since at the time I was training my dog for obedience competition. After about the first chapter, though, I realized I didn't agree with most of the material I was indexing. The author's approach was too harsh for me (I like "cookies and praise" :) ), and I hate to think that I contributed to a book that will encourage dog owners to buy prong collars for puppies. It was hard to index a book like that without letting my opinions bias the index. I feel like I do better work if I'm distanced from the topic of the book. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: headings for beyond 2000 In a message dated 97-07-28 22:04:49 EDT, you write: > How would you word an entry for computer software & operating systems that > support dates beyond the year 2000? > > Dates > post-2000 > > Dates > 2000 and beyond > > Dates > beyond 2000 > > I'm leaning towards the last. Any opinions? Other ideas? I'd love to > hear 'em. 8-) Hi Kari, I think I prefer the second one, because computer types look for numbers. I'd probably put another entry under 2000 date for computer systems for the same reason. Whenever I put the numbers and symbols at the beginning of a computer-related index, I get lots of compliments on it. I guess they look there first! Just my .02. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:27:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content -Reply I'll chime in, again. I index textbooks. Writing quality is rarely beyond adequate for communication. I find the major dividing line to be in organization and consistency. A poorly organized book is the devil to index--ditto for lack of consistency in terminology. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content Linda wrote: << Opinions, please - have you found that interest in the content of the books you index provides significant difference in job satisfaction? SIGs exist because people specialize, and interest often leads one person to index science texts and another computer manuals. If you specialized, do you think you are happier and even perhaps more skillful than you might have been otherwise, due to pleasure in the book content? If you didn't specialize, do you wish you had, or do you think variety is the spice? >> I consider myself a generalist (within the social sciences and humanities), and I think it gives me a good perspective on the books I index. I'm the "well-informed general reader," and so I can imagine what readers might look up. I love getting to learn about a thousand different subjects--I never get bored! I do get very happy, though, when I am able to index a book with content I'm specifically interested in! And I don't think the expertise level I have in these areas prevents me from looking at the texts from the reader's point of view. My interest just gives me more energy for the job. I do specialize in the general area of social sciences and humanities, however. I have a liberal arts education that meant I started out with basic familiarity in these fields--terminology and how research is conducted. Even at the beginning of my indexing career I could read, for instance, a scholarly history monograph with a certain amount of comprehension. I think that level of familiarity or expertise is important. I don't have the background in science, medicine, technical documentation or law to index competently in these areas (except introductory textbooks aimed at people like me!). Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:27:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: textbook indexing Chris wrote, and Mary answered: << 3. Sometimes I feel like I am only picking up terms in bold print, company names, etc. Is this a common feeling with textbooks?>> <> I agree. But textbooks do vary in how many ancillary (secondary) topics are floating around within the headed sections. Sometimes none at all, sometimes quite a few. It's usually pretty consistent within one text, though. This quality makes a textbook an ideal practice indexing text! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:40:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Manke, Kristin L" Subject: How do you index a home page? Hi there, I'm a newbie at indexing and am hoping you folks can direct me to some information. I built a home page for work (mostly technical, text-based information) and would like to develop an index for it. I'm quite lucky in that I have people who will do the HTML work and design, but I need to know how to create the index and what to tell them. Any ideas on some good reference materials on this topic? How do I deal with the lack of page numbers? How do I format this for easy reading? Thanks!!! Kristin Manke kristin.manke@pnl.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:08:58 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: counting entries, more info Hi all, In my case, the publisher and I agreed before hand that an "entry" is each page reference or range, and each cross ref. I think the key hinges on what you agree upon *beforehand* as to what constitutes "an entry." I believe I should be paid for each paid ref as I must find them and type them in each time, even if I've used an abbreviation. I only have one client that charges by the entry, thank goodness. And for Mac Cindex users, Frances told me how to get an accurate count. Put your index in draft view and under the Tools menu, select Expand. This puts every page ref in its own record, then under tools do the Index statistics (or whatever it's called) and the resulting total reflects each page ref or range, and all xrefs. Thanks, Frances! However, this means I have overcharged my client by about 100 or so entries and I will have to call tomorrow and tell them to give me less money :-( Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:24:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: SLA Self-course on indexing I wonder if any of you on this list have taken the SLA course on indexing. It is a self-course. I wonder what you thought of it? Would appreciate any comments from those of you who may have taken it. Thanks for any feedback. Loraine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:20:59 -0700 Reply-To: Kari Bero Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: SUMMARY: headings for beyond 2000 In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970729121602.368f6c1a@electriciti.com> FYI... My favorite response came from Julie Knoeller, and wasn't posted to the entire list: Dates 2000+ The computer geeks I asked all said (independently) "Year 2000 problem" is how that topic is usually dealt with, so in this case "Year 2000, support for dates beyond" would be a good entry. INDEX-L is such a terrific resource! Thanks to all who responded. -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:27:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Re: How do you index a home page? In-Reply-To: <3324ACBB84DBD0118A9700A024E9EF100FF8E9@PNLMSE6.pnl.gov> >> On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:40:24 -0700, >> "Manke, Kristin L" said: K> I built a home page for work (mostly technical, text-based information) K> and would like to develop an index for it. I'm quite lucky in that I K> have people who will do the HTML work and design, but I need to know how K> to create the index and what to tell them. Here are the three best papers I've seen on this subject: Naming Objects in your pages http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Shafer/061697/ One of the most important things you can do to make your Web pages technically robust--and ready for upcoming advances in scripting and programming--is to name everything that can be named on your pages. Organizing things http://www.vivid.com/form/unified/ Richard Saul Wurman suggests five ways to organize everything but seven is clearer to me. Everything (and I mean everything) can be organized in one of these ways: by Alphabet, Location, Time, Continuum, Number, or Category. A last way of organizing things can often be Randomly (in other words, by not organizing them). Enabling Extremely Rapid Navigation in Your Web or Document http://www.pdr-is.com/infoaxcs.htm This article presents information design techniques that apply to web sites, help systems, hardcopy, and online documentation. When the standard document navigation structures are provided, readers can rapidly survey the scope of a web or document and jump to the pages of greatest interest. This article explains the nature and benefits of detailed outlines and recommends that web authors provide a reasonably detailed and structured outline of their web site. Surfing the web can be speeded up greatly by loading fewer irrelevant pages and by giving users an (additional) alternative to page-by-page exploration, thus avoiding the lost-in-hyperspace syndrome. The distinctions between overviews, tables of contents, full-text searches, database keyword searches, and topical indexes are explained, to justify providing multiple approaches for the reader. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil "Auntie Em: hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog." -Dorothy --seen on a bumper sticker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:27:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Jacob Subject: SLA Self-course on indexing -Reply Loraine, I have recently got interested in indexing and am looking for training. Could you tell me what "SLA" stands for and where you got info. on it? Thanks, Mary >>> "Loraine F. Sweetland" 07/29/97 03:24pm >>> I wonder if any of you on this list have taken the SLA course on indexing. It is a self-course. I wonder what you thought of it? Would appreciate any comments from those of you who may have taken it. Thanks for any feedback. Loraine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:04:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: SLA Indexing information I got this information from the Special Libraries Association (SLA) home page. I know nothing about the quality or specific content of this material, but here is the information for finding out more about what SLA offers in regard to indexing. Hope it helps. The URL is: http://www.sla.org/professional/self.html#si Subject Indexing: An Introductory Guide. This workbook is designed for special librarians and other information practitioners who handle unique or specialized materials that are lacking access tools. This course does not presume any prior knowledge of indexing or subject cataloging. Available in workbook format only. Workbook -- $85; SLA member fee $69. Order Form This is an ascii text version of the order form. Please print this form then send it or fax it to the address below once it is completed: Mail to: Special Libraries Association Order Department 1700 Eighteenth Street, NW Washington, DC 20009-2514 Fax: 1-202-265-9317 Phone: 1-202-234-4700, ext.643. SELF-STUDY PROGRAM ORDER FORM Quantity / Title Price Total ________ / Communicating With Library Users (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Control of Administrative and Financial Operations in Special Libraries (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Database Design (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Getting Started on the Internet(CD-ROM) $160 $129 (member) ______ ________ / Getting Started on the Internet (Windows) $160 $129 (member) ______ ________ / Getting Started on the Internet (Macintosh) $160 $129 (member) ______ ________ / Grace Under Pressure (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Grace Under Pressure (floppy disk) $125 $100 (member) ______ ________ / Legal Research (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Money Talk (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Owning Your Numbers (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Presenting With Power (workbook) $55 $40 (member) ______ ________ / Subject Indexing (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / The ABC's of Cataloging (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Time Management in the Small Library (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ ________ / Time Management in the Small Library (floppy disk) $125 $100 (member) ______ ________ / Winning Marketing Techniques (workbook) $85 $69 (member) ______ Subtotal: __________ All prices include shipping and handling charges. TOTAL: __________ ______ Payment Enclosed: ______ P.O. Number: ______ Charge to: _____VISA _____MasterCard _____American Express Account # ________________________________ Exp. ____________ Signature:__________________________________________________ Ship to: ______________________________________________________________________________ Last Name First Name MI ______________________________________________________________________________ Organization ______________________________________________________________________________ Street Address ______________________________________________________________________________ City State/Province ______________________________________________________________________________ Zip/Postal Code Country ______________________________________________________________________________ Business Phone Fax ______________________________________________________________________________ SLA Member Name (required to receive member price) ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:05:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "SHARON J. STEINBERG" Subject: Re: Hebrew In-Reply-To: <199707231515.LAA29736@alcor.concordia.ca> Dear Rachel, I don't know if I can be of any help to you, but I could give it a try. I am familiar with transliterated Hebrew ( I sing in a synagogue choir and we use transliterated Hebrew all the time). If you want to , you can e-mail me the terms you are having difficulty with. I could even try to consult with some scholars here who would know about Jewish law more than I would. Here in Montreal, there is quite a network of Jewish scholarship. Best wishes. Sharon Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:40:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Howard R." Subject: Re: CANCELLING SUBSCRIPTION set Marie-Lise Shams wrote: set index-l nomail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:47:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Literary references to indexing Laura Moss Gottlieb writes: < Penelope Lively's _Heat Wave_ [an all-too-apt description of current Midwest conditions!] features the relationship between a female freeelanc= e editor and her son-in-law, who is doing research for a book on tourism. = At one point, the author's mother-in-law receives a phone call from her son-in-law's research assistant, who says: "....if someone could say to h= im that the indexer who did his last book isn't going to be available so we'= re making inquiries about someone else. I only need to hear from him if he isn't happy about that." = Hazel Bell has pointed out to me some references in The Indexer to indexi= ng themes in Penelope Lively's work. In Vol. 14, No. 4, October 1985, p. 27= 8, Judy Batchelor's article "Not-quite-indexers in fiction (and non-fiction)= " referred to Lively's According to Mark (1984). "Here surely", writes JLB,= "is the indexerly mind floating free, creative, full of possibilities: th= e world its book, world and mind to be enlarged, and simultaneously diminished, by the delicate momentary attachment of a network of cognitiv= e relationships." Further comment on indexing in Lively's novels is found i= n Vol. 15, No. 1, April 1986, p. 27, under the heading "Indexers in fiction= ". The novels mentioned are According to Mark (again) and Perfect happiness.= Christine *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:52:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: SLA Self-course on indexing -Reply For those who inquired SLA stands for Special Library Association. Loraine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:42:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content >If you didn't specialize, do you wish you had, or do you think variety is the >spice? Hmmm. I'm the original generalist, and I've long had a policy that I won't work on the same book twice (that is, having copyedited, proofread, and/or indexed one edition, I won't work on subsequent editions of the same book)--though of course I've often worked on more than one book about a given subject. So I guess I'm definitely in the "variety is the spice" camp. I'm something of a polymath, and maybe a compulsive learner to boot, so I'm always happy (and interested) when I'm learning something, whether it be about respiratory problems in premature babies or about the legal aspects of doing business on-line. The chance to work on a variety of materials is a big part of why I've stayed a freelancer, forgoing such benefits as paid holidays, company dental plans, and the like. I just never could picture myself working on the same kind of book over and over. As a freelancer, I also get to use all aspects of my talents: in addition to the actual hands-on work for which I'm paid by clients, each week includes many other tasks related to running a business: administration, marketing, planning, and so on. I like juggling it all and switching hats constantly, and I like to believe that it's all keeping me young. (My mom's hair had gone almost completely grey by the time she was my age--I'll be 41 in August--while I have only one or two silver hairs so far.) No matter: it's certainly keeping me happy and fulfilled. If today were to be my last, I could die knowing I'd used well--and enjoyed thoroughly--all the gifts I was given here. And what else is there, really? Cheers, Rica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net * Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer * Seminar Leader: _Networking With Integrity_ and _Romance Meets Reality: Becoming Your Own Boss_ Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "My own boss: when I talk, *I* listen!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:28:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Hill Subject: ASIS Annual Meeting - Digital Collections DIGITAL COLLECTIONS: Implications for Users, Funders, Developers and Maintainers ASIS 1997 Annual Meeting November 2-6, 1997 Washington, DC Preliminary Program The ASIS 1997 annual meeting will deal broadly with the emerging phenomenon of collections of digital objects -- text, image, sound, and multimedia -- accumulated in central as well as distributed repositories or virtual collections. Following are representative topics. For up-to-date information, session descriptions, schedule, registration information, and more, please see the ASIS Web site at or contact ASIS at the address below. Sunday, November 2, 1:00 pm- Thursday, November 6, Noon Plenary Sessions: * Tom Kalil, Director of Science and Technology for the National Economic Council, The White House "Clinton-Gore Policies and Networked Information * Funders' Forum: Private/Public Support for Digitization Projects. The 1997 Funding Forum is a platform for representatives of a variety of programs to discuss their expectations for projects to be funded, currently funded initiatives, the relative success of past projects, and hopes for future collaborative efforts. Technical Program * Digital Library Evaluation * Digital Collections for Small and Medium-Sized Enterprises * Linking Government Data Producers to the Intermediary User Communities. * Search Engines as Intelligent Agents (Knowbots) * Web User Assessment * Interfaces for Digital Special Collections * Multilingual Databases In the Networking Age * Networked Distribution of Electronic Publications * Retrieval Designs Affecting Digital Collections * Organizing and Representing Knowledge Graphically * Image Retrieval * Library Resources via the World Wide Web: User Studies * Electronic Publication in the Sciences * Metadata, the Uniform Resource Characteristic, and Access * Classification and Indexing for Image Collections * Interface Design * Demonstration of Iterative Prototyping. * Diffusion Theory & Electronic Publishing * Semiotic Approaches to Information Science * Networking in Less-Developed Countries * Communities & Electronic Networks * Faculty Transition To the Use of Electronic Information Resources * Time as a Factor in the Evaluation of Information Quality * Public Interest and Fair Use * Classificatory Structures * Information Retrieval Interaction * Information Technology Projects at the National Library of Medicine Continuing Education/Professional Development Seminars Friday, October 31 (all courses 9:00am - 5:00pm) * Delivering Databases via the World Wide Web * Thesauri for Indexing and Retrieval Saturday, November 1 (all courses 9:00 - 5:00) * Copyright in an Electronic World * Introduction to Computer and Network Security * Data Communications: Understanding the Basics * Introduction to Image Databases * Harnessing New Technologies for Collaboration * Digital Libraries: Concepts & Technologies for Managing Library Collections * Introduction to SGML * Building the Virtual "Intranet" Knowledge Center Sunday, November 2 (9:00 am - 1:00pm unless noted) * Beyond HTML: Cognition, Information Design, and the Computer Interface * Finding the Right Stuff: Using and Evaluating Internet Search Engines * Law and the Internet * 8th SIG CR Classification Research Workshop (8:30am - 5:00pm) * ASIS Leadership Development Program: Meeting Facilitation (10:00am - Noon) * Pamoja: A Training Simulation for International Information Flow.(1:00pm - 5:30pm) Meeting Venue JW Marriott Hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue 1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, DC 20004 (202) 393-2000 Fax: (202) 626-6991 1-800 228-9290 http://www.marriott.com/marriott/dc-042.htm Contact the American Society for Information Science 8720 Georgia Avenue, Suite 501 Silver Spring, MD 20910 FAX: (301) 495-0810 VOICE: (301) 495-0900 asis@asis.org http://www.asis.org Richard Hill Executive Director, American Society for Information Science 8720 Georgia Avenue, Suite 501 Silver Spring, MD 20910 FAX: (301) 495-0810 Voice: (301) 495-0900 rhill@asis.org http://www.asis.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:06:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ssmckitt@CORD.IUPUI.EDU Subject: transcription services In-Reply-To: <199707301356.IAA11420@velcome.iupui.edu> Where could I find rates for transcribing audiotaped interviews into Word? The cassette tapes contain interviews of alumnae from a university for the blind. The material will eventually be published by that university. The author is a former professor. Please reply to me personally. Thank you. Sharon McKittrick 317-352-0615 ssmckitt@cord.iupui.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: SLA self-course on indexing CAVEAT: Given that I teach and sell an indexing course, I obviously have strong opinions about what they should contain. I have not taken the SLA course, but someone who took my course brought in the rather short course book, which seemed to be all the materials you get. I did not think from looking it over briefly that it was at all worthwhile. The big advantage would be that, according to my student who was a librarian, you get librarian continuing education credits for doing it. If that is not something you need, Nancy Mulvany's book "Indexing Books," UChi Press, would teach you much much more for less money (about $30), if you are the kind of person who can learn indexing from a book. In fact, I would recommend Nancy's book over the SLA even if the prices were reversed. Regards, Susan Susan Holbert/Indexing Services -- 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert Indexing Skills training videos Basic Skills workshops (Boston) -- Sept. 13 and Oct. 4 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:25:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re[2]: Your interest level in your book content Thanks for all your responses on this issue. What a snazzy group! One comment that Rica made below brings me a tongue-in-cheek response about being a contractor with variety vs being a permanent employee with non-variety. Having been both contract and permanent technical writer, this permanent position really provides variety! I currently am lucky to have multiple projects that require using FrameMaker, IXGen (index generator for Frame), RoboHelp, Word, Paint Shop Pro, HTML Transit, HomeSite (an HTML design product), two revision control programs, an error-reporting program, and a mainframe program. However, I don't do administration, marketing, and so on, and grant Rica and all contractors the pleasure both of doing those things and of being able to regularly choose a new activity or book. I'm seriously considering indexing. If anyone would like to respond, I have a couple of questions: How do you read a book prior to indexing it - skimming? Do you charge for reading it? And is your software independent of publications software? For example, no one has mentioned IXGen, which goes with FrameMaker. Linda ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Your interest level in your book content Author: Rica Night at unixlink Date: 7/30/97 9:42 AM >If you didn't specialize, do you wish you had, or do you think variety is the >spice? Hmmm. I'm the original generalist, and I've long had a policy that I won't work on the same book twice (that is, having copyedited, proofread, and/or indexed one edition, I won't work on subsequent editions of the same book)--though of course I've often worked on more than one book about a given subject. So I guess I'm definitely in the "variety is the spice" camp. I'm something of a polymath, and maybe a compulsive learner to boot, so I'm always happy (and interested) when I'm learning something, whether it be about respiratory problems in premature babies or about the legal aspects of doing business on-line. The chance to work on a variety of materials is a big part of why I've stayed a freelancer, forgoing such benefits as paid holidays, company dental plans, and the like. I just never could picture myself working on the same kind of book over and over. As a freelancer, I also get to use all aspects of my talents: in addition to the actual hands-on work for which I'm paid by clients, each week includes many other tasks related to running a business: administration, marketing, planning, and so on. I like juggling it all and switching hats constantly, and I like to believe that it's all keeping me young. (My mom's hair had gone almost completely grey by the time she was my age--I'll be 41 in August--while I have only one or two silver hairs so far.) No matter: it's certainly keeping me happy and fulfilled. If today were to be my last, I could die knowing I'd used well--and enjoyed thoroughly--all the gifts I was given here. And what else is there, really? Cheers, Rica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net * Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer * Seminar Leader: _Networking With Integrity_ and _Romance Meets Reality: Becoming Your Own Boss_ Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "My own boss: when I talk, *I* listen!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:25:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Re[2]: Your interest level in your book content At 01:25 PM 7/30/97 -0500, Linda Cast wrote: > I'm seriously considering indexing. If anyone would like to respond, I > have a couple of questions: How do you read a book prior to indexing > it - skimming? Do you charge for reading it? And is your software > independent of publications software? For example, no one has > mentioned IXGen, which goes with FrameMaker. I read as I index, usually, unless the book is something quite difficult and/or specialized, so that I feel I need a brief overview before I plunge in. The time I take to skim/read, I include in my per-page rate...it's not an extra. Most folks on the list use either Cindex or Macrex, both of which are dedicated indexing software programs. Many also use various add-ons to programs such as FrameMaker or PageMaker...or the programs themselves. I'm not sure we have any who are still doing indexing the old-fashioned way--with index cards--but that's how I learned to do it, way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:13:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: multi-authored works Well, my "first job" arrived, and I'm plowing through it as fast as I can. Thank you to everyone who has sent congratulations! I have run into a question about multi-authored works, and I thought I'd ask the experts: When one author's work, including but not limited to the essay chosen for the book, is discussed and/or quoted at length by other authors in their own essays, clearly the discussions/quotes are indexable. However, since that author's essay appears in full elsewhere in the book, should I point that out? (Either by listing the page numbers, which doesn't seem to make sense, or by using some sort of "see also" reference directing the reader to the text: "see also essay by Doe, 22-48".) Or should I ignore the existence of the actual essay, while still indexing those quotes/discussions of it which occur in other essays? Neither solution seems quite appropriate to me. Additionally, if I do add some sort of reference to Doe's actual essay, should the other essays be similarly referenced in the interest of fairness? I'm inclined to say no, but I'm wary of treading on anyone's toes. TIA for your responses! Kara M. Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:34:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: headings for beyond 2000 Hi Kari: I just read all the year 2000 messages. Had deadline, read no e-mail. Here are some more suggestions: 2000+ (year 2000+): date support date support: year 2000+ twenty-first century: date support year 2000+: date support Cheers, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:43:37 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: proofreading Someone recently mentioned to me that doing proofreading for publishing companies is an ideal way to become known by publishers and could be an inlet into indexing for them in the future. What exactly does proofreading involve? How does one make themselves available for that type of work? Simply by writing letters to editors? When just starting (and not being able to supply "samples" of proofreading as could be done with unpublished indexes) how does one present themselves so as to have credibility? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:39:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: proofreading Kevin A. Broccoli writes: << Someone recently mentioned to me that doing proofreading for publishing companies is an ideal way to become known by publishers and could be an inlet into indexing for them in the future. What exactly does proofreading involve? How does one make themselves available for that type of work? Simply by writing letters to editors? When just starting (and not being able to supply "samples" of proofreading as could be done with unpublished indexes) how does one present themselves so as to have credibility? >> Hi Kevin, I proofread for about a year and a half before I started indexing. The job description varies from publisher to publisher, but usually involves reading for spelling, typographical errors, basic grammar, page-layout errors, style conventions (supplied by the publisher). Proofreading usually does not involve re-writing text, although you can make suggestions to the editor in charge of the project. When contacting publishers, I'd contact both editors and production supervisors; many publishers consider proofreading to be part of the production process. (You should be able to find the contact names on the credits pages of other books by that publishing house.) I'd include a resume and possibly a brief writing sample -- the publisher will probably ask to you to take a proofreading proficiency test as part of the application process. Hope this helps! Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:37:00 BST-1 Reply-To: shuter@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Shuter Subject: ISO 999 and other indexing standards BSI:DISC IDT/2/2 is the UK committee responsible for BS ISO 999 and all other UK standards in the area of indexing (e.g. thesaurus construction, but not proofreading). We also contribute to ISO TC46 in this area, and were major players in the development of ISO 999 which was based on BS 3700. This work will initially be done in relation to British Standards, but since all but one of these are identical with international standards, we would expect to submit our proposals to ISO as the ISO standards come up for review. I am therefore interested in hearing from anyone anywhere in the world who uses British or ISO standards (or national standards based on these) -- particularly anyone who is involved in national standards committees in the area, and who has comments to make on the following topics: (a) rationalisation of standards in the indexing area -- there are currently too many, and they overlap and sometimes contradict each other (b) further development of ISO 999 in the area of indexing principles (c) the specific application of ISO 999 principles to the area of electronic indexing (internet sites, online databases, software manuals, electronic books & other CD-ROM publications) I am not sure whether this is something people would like to discuss on Index-L -- it may be more appropriate to email me. Janet Shuter chair: BSI DISC IDT/2/2 email shuter@cix.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:33:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: multi-authored works Kara, I ran into the situation you described just recently. Many contributors to a book of collected essays referred to each other. Fortunately, the editor added a biographical sketch about each contributor to the first page of his/her essay. I decided to include the names of all contributors in the single Subject Index, and to use boldface for the page numbers containing their sketches and regular font for pages containing information about them by other contributors. It seemed to work very well. Diane Worden, Kalamazoo, Mich. WordenDex Plus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:07:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andre De Tienne Subject: Locators and indicators Dear Index-Lers, I have two questions. 1. What is the best order of locators in the following entry? Is there a general rule regarding the placement of a page number with an indicator (e.g., "fig.") vis-a-vis a page range beginning with the same page number? (a) existential graph, 12, 15, 16 fig., 16-19, 24 or (b) existential graph, 12, 15, 16-19, 16 fig., 24 Is it less awkward to have "16 fig." before "16-19," given that "16" would not follow "19," or is the reverse, as a rule, preferable? 2. In case the subject of an entry is both discussed on a given page, and is illustrated on that same page, is it always required to enter both locators separately? Thus, for example: (a) existential graph, 12, 15, 18, 18 fig., 22 instead of, simply, (b) existential graph, 12, 15, 18 fig., 22 where it is assumed that the reader will not only look at the illustration on p. 18, but also read around it? Many thanks for enlightening me on these two matters. Andre De Tienne ************************************************************* Andre De Tienne Tel.(H): 317-328-8789 HyperIndex Tel.(W): 317-274-2033 7590 Harcourt Road # 106 Fax: 317-274-2347 Indianapolis, IN 46260-3143 E-mail: adetienn@iupui.edu ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: list owner away for a while Hi all, Just to let you know...I will be on vacation and away from e-mail until Aug 10. I trust that everything will run smoothly until then. If not, please be patient. I will return. Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:12:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: # of locators Andre's post got me to thinking about a similar question. I have done a lot of books with photos. I have always allowed myself more than five locators if the locators were italicized (for photos) and five or less were textual locators. For example, _Public Enemy, The_, 80-2, _83_, 84-6, _84_, 166, 171, 398 (Note: in this example page 83 is a full page photo, while page 84 is a half-page photo with half-page text) What do the rest of you think? Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing indexer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:01:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Locators and indicators On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:07:01 -0600 Andre De Tienne writes: >1. What is the best order of locators in the following entry? Is there >a general rule regarding the placement of a page number with an >indicator (e.g., "fig.") vis-a-vis a page range beginning with the same page >number? > >(a) existential graph, 12, 15, 16 fig., 16-19, 24 >or >(b) existential graph, 12, 15, 16-19, 16 fig., 24 > I have a publisher who requests that form (b) be used. If form (a) were used, things could get sticky, eg. existential graph, 12, 14, 16 fig., 16-19, 18 fig,24 in this case form (b) is perhaps more logical (always putting the illustrations after the regular pages) existential graph, 12, 14, 16-19, 16 fig, 18fig, 24 > >2. In case the subject of an entry is both discussed on a given page, >and is illustrated on that same page, is it always required to enter both >locators separately? Thus, for example: > >(a) existential graph, 12, 15, 18, 18 fig., 22 > >instead of, simply, > >(b) existential graph, 12, 15, 18 fig., 22 > >where it is assumed that the reader will not only look at the >illustration >on p. 18, but also read around it? > I have always followed (a), letting the reader know there is both textual information and an illustration on page 18. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing indexer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:27:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: UPS on strike I don't know the entire story, but you should be alerted: Starting tomorrow, August 1, the United Parcel Service (UPS) teamsters union is going on strike, which means they won't do a very good job of getting your packages there on time. (This makes an interested addendum to all the FedEx/UPS talk we've recently.) In response, all package delivery services, including FedEx and the US Post Office, will be slowing down. Pickup times will also most likely be affected. Be aware of your shipping requirements, and prepare in advance. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW ADDRESS O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:40:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: The shoe's on the other foot In-Reply-To: <199707181649.AA14553@world.std.com> Well, I've recently had the experience of being edited - twice. I'm not sure I'm happy with the results. I wrote the chapter summaries for a book which I'm not indexing and found the sentences that I carefully worded in active voice were changed to passive voice (by the author?). Then in today's paper, the summary I wrote for my 10-year-old's baseball team was changed to include the sentence, "...so-and-so and so-and-so plated runs with their hits." I didn't know the word "plate" could be used as a verb! The newspaper's sports editor (I assume) also changed the sentences "Hits by so-and-so and so-and-so sparked the rally." to "The rally was sparked by..." I was wondering if there's any way to write a nice note to the sports editor expressing my disappointment and amusement without insulting him... I'm a bit embarrassed by this one because a number of people know I'm writing these summaries. Doesn't anyone care about active voice anymore?! Sorry to spin off into a discussion about editing...... Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:17:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: multi-authored works In-Reply-To: <199707310413.XAA01000@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Or should I ignore the >existence of the actual essay, while still indexing those >quotes/discussions of it which occur in other essays? I face this situation frequently. I do just what you describe here. The actual essay is not about its author (say, author A), whereas author B's discussions *are about* author A, so author A becomes a subject for author B. I think it's nice when author B points out that the quoted article is in the same volume, but if she or he doesn't, I don't sweat it. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:55:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot In-Reply-To: <199707312205.PAA01053@mx2.u.washington.edu> The best way to handle unwanted and unnecessary editing that changes your meaning and makes you look like a fool is the Harlan Ellison solution: make them use a pseudonym of your choosing if they mess with what you write too much. Note that the Star Trek episode "City of the Edge of Time" was written by Cordwainer Bird, i.e., Harlan Ellison after they rewrote him. Everytime (almost; then I threaten to walk) I threaten something like this it works for me. My pseudonym would be far worse. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:36:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot At 03:40 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote: >Doesn't anyone care about active voice anymore?! There are appropriate uses for passive voice. I'd rather write "The paper was inadvertently soiled" than "I spilled coffee on the paper." But reporting a sporting event passively seems oxymoronic, doesn't it? You could call the guy up and say nicely, "I noticed this change; what was your reasoning?" Maybe if he knows you're paying attention, he'll behave, or at least call you to discuss proposed changes. Or, you could red-ink some of *his* articles and send them back to him! -- LG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:22:03 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Dates - year 2000 and after Kari Bero wrote: >How would you word an entry for computer software & operating systems that >support dates beyond the year 2000? >Dates > post-2000 >Dates > 2000 and beyond >Dates >beyond 2000 Since a) these years include 2000 itself; b) 'post' has another meaning in some contexts ('post an article'; 'post the ledgers'), and c) '2000' by itself is only a number, I would opt for: Dates year 2000 and after Incidentally, I'm starting a campaign to avoid going to 2000 at all, but to begin counting again from 1900. This would resolve this indexing problem as well as the Millenium Bug itself. It would also allow the recycling of old diaries and calendars and - incidentally - make us all feel a lot younger. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:09:41 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Interest level/subject knowledge Pam Rider wrote: >I actually think that a certain amount of ignorance in a field helps in the >indexing of a book. The person who is thoroughly knowledgeable in a subject >matter may not index material valuable to a general reader. Or, an expert >might over-index, anticipating that others will be as fascinated with >details as they are. I more-or-less think that it's easier to make >professional decisions on what to index when one is working on material that >the indexer has personal distance from. This topic came up before (a year ago?) and there was a debate between people who claim that you can't have too much knowledge and those (like me) who share Pam's view that the indexer should be a kind of 'stand-in' for the typical reader. (We hear of 'body doubles' for sex scenes - what about a 'mind double'?). Of course, there are many different types of readers, even 'typical readers'. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:53:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: The shoe's on the other foot >There are appropriate uses for passive voice. I'd rather write "The paper >was inadvertently soiled" than "I spilled coffee on the paper." Absolutely true. The "rule" against the passive voice aims at eliminating its *overuse*, not eliminating it entirely. Good writers and editors may choose/allow the passive voice in any of the following circumstances (and there may be others I'm not recalling off the top of my head): (a) the act (or the object of the act) is more important than the actor (a question of emphasis) (b) the actor is unknown ("Some money was stolen from our safe.") (c) the actor is obvious, and the sentence wouldn't be improved by specifying the actor ("The criminal was sentenced to life without parole"--or even "Criminals are now charged, tried, convicted, and sentenced within a year after their arrest, thanks to the improved processing in our court system") (d) the actor is known, but diplomacy/tact dictate a less in-your-face approach ("We received your order, but the cheque was not enclosed" [which allows for the possibility that the addressee did in fact enclose it, but it fell out en route] (e) the actor is known, but the speaker/writer wants to gloss over that uncomfortable fact ("A decision has been reached: 1000 jobs must be eliminated") >But reporting a sporting event passively seems oxymoronic, doesn't it? > >You could call the guy up and say nicely, "I noticed this change; what was >your reasoning?" Maybe if he knows you're paying attention, he'll behave, >or at least call you to discuss proposed changes. > >Or, you could red-ink some of *his* articles and send them back to him! Before you do this, I'd recommend getting a bit of perspective. I, too, have been edited, and not always well: twice, in fact, other supposedly professional (albeit volunteer) editors have actually introduced blatant errors into articles I wrote--articles that were published in a newsletter that is circulated among (you guessed it) some 600 other editors. One must take into account the circumstances of the editing. Newspaper editors, for example, operate under constraints of time and space that book editors would consider nightmarish. What's more, it's *extremely* rare for a journalist to be given a chance to "discuss [or otherwise vet/approve] proposed changes"; probably only someone with the clout of a William Safire is accorded such a privilege (and then only because his column runs weekly, not daily). Making a fuss about a change that doesn't actually introduce an error (that is, the changed sentence is still grammatically correct--it's just in the passive voice) will *not* endear you to this or any other editor. If you want the chance to write for these people again, do whatever it takes to let go of your attachment to the precise words you wrote, and just be pleased and proud that you've got a clipping to add to your portfolio. Whatever you submit to an editor (especially a newspaper editor), no matter how "finished" *you* might consider it to be, is merely a *draft* in the eyes of that editor. Any of the changes you describe may in fact have been made in order to accomplish what's known as "copyfitting"--that is, stretching or shrinking a paragraph so that the columns in a piece line up when the page is laid out. When I edit newsletters, I often make last-minute changes--sometimes dozens of them in a four-page newsletter--for this reason. I do my level best not to change an author's meaning or introduce an error in the process, but believe me, there is *never* time to run such changes past the article's author--particularly since I may make similar changes in half a dozen articles in the same issue (which was due at the printer an hour ago). Hope this helps explain what may have happened. Cheers, Rica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer, Trainer Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "Life is just a bowl of queries." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<