From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 25-NOV-1997 21:01:24.38 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709D" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:31:32 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:22:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr@aol.com Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi everyone, The ICQ chat was a flop only two people besides me showed up. I have change the day a time to Sat. Morning at 8:30 Central Time. Maybe it will be more convenient for everyone. If you haven't download the program. You can get it from: http://members.aol.com/bookindexr Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:22:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199709192014.NAA28853@mail-gw.pacbell.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 04:19 PM 9/19/97 -0400, Ann wrote: >I AM LOVING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LAUGHING SO HARD THAT I MAY HAVE AN >UNSIGHTLY FOOD ACCIDENT RIGHT HERE AT THE COMPUTER! THANKS, LYNN!!!!! > ROFL!!! Just watch out for the static charge as you wipe the food off the screen. You're welcome! ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:22:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@aol.com Subject: Re: author citations in text and footnotes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Concerning Michael's response about omitting spaces and periods from note locators, I think it's a good idea. However, if the publisher wants to follow CMS and the indexer can't convince this client otherwise (Should we even try? Yes, of course, it's worth the beauty of an uncluttered page), they stay in. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:23:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Geographic names In-Reply-To: <199709200416.XAA27884@mixcom.mixcom.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Geneva, Lake > shoreline parks >and > Lake Geneva region > shoreline parks >better to me. Does anyone have any strong feelings one way or another? Is the >noninverted "...region" main entry legitimate? Or does everything except >actual corporate names get inverted? I wouldn't invert the name Lake Geneva any more than I'd invert North Dakoka. If there were a lot in the book on different lakes (and environs), I might have an entry for lakes (with cross-refs as needed): lakes Cayuga Lake Lake Geneva Saranac Lake Although I think "Lake Geneva region" is fine, I'm not sure it's necessary. People commonly say things like, "We stayed on Lake Geneva last summer," and it doesn't mean they were literally *on* the water. I think it's understood that Lake Geneva can include the surrounding land, so that entries like this are not inappropriate: Lake Geneva attractions bed and breakfast inns shoreline water temperature zebra mussels in Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:23:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Disassociating objects ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Another one for the programmers. The text says "The TERMINATE procedure disassociates the module-level object variables fom the objects they refer to." It apparently has to do with releasing an object variable when the object is no longer needed. What is the appropriate task entry? Is the subject of the task: objects object variables object variables, module-level (other?) Is the action involved: disassociating freeing releasing (other?) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:23:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ghg410@aol.com Subject: Re: Geographic names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As a Reference Librarian who has used and taught indexes for many years, I just want you to know that "real people" do not look under Michigan, Lake. Th e World Book, which is one of the most user friendly encyclopedias out there, indexes it as Lake Michigan. I know what CMS says, but it just doesn't make sense to "a reasonable person", as they say in tort law. But then for so many years it didn't make sense to put Mark Twain's books under Samuel Clemens. If he had wanted his books to be known as being by Samuel Clemens, he would have put that on the title page. When AACRII changed to title page form of the author's name as the main entry, it made things much easier for users and catalogers alike, not to mention displaying a kind of respect for an author's choice of how he/she wished to be known in connection with a particular book. There are writers who write under a different form of his/her name depending on the kind of book it is such as scholarly, fiction or juvenile. If you get the chance to make the choice, choose natural order for geographic names. If I were asked to make a recommendation, I would recommend the natural order. Gerri Geraldiine H. Gray Head Reference Librarian Loyola/Notre Dame Library Baltimore, MD ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:23:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Cross-references In-Reply-To: <199709091718.AA11759@world.std.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Any Saturday night indexers out there? I have two terms for the same thing that are right next to each other in the index. Obviously, I'm only going to use one of them in the index but it seems silly to use a cross-reference from the one I don't use. This happens to me a lot but I've never thought to ask the group about it. RT_DATA server RT_DATAsrv See RT_DATA server Creating this seems a bit silly to me. If I was a reader I might be mildly insulted. Both terms are used interchangably in the manual. Thanks, Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:24:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@aol.com Subject: scholarly author citations-more ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- More detail follows, but first, thanks to Sonsie and Michael for responding to my question. Sonsie wrote: First, I'd ask my editor what he/she prefers, or what the press style is, >and do it that way. If there are no specific directions, I would opt for >making entries for both places. (I usually just write, "37, 37n" and explain >in my headnote that "n" stands for "note"). >Michael wrote: I've given this "pesky problem" a lot of thought and I'm curious about how others resolve it. Like Sonsie, I too include references to the body of the text and references to footnotes on the same page (and I don't know anyone who doesn't). However, when note numbers are provided I include them in the note references. Since note references including note numbers can be quite complex I make them as simple and short and yet clear as possible by not using periods, intervening spaces, or enclosing parentheses, as in "37n4", "37nn4,5", and "37nn4-6". Rendering Jill's example "37-38{nn.21,22}" in this style as "37-38nn21,22" would push the limit of what the eye can recognize, but this would be unnecessary and incorrect as well, I believe, because only one of the notes spans two pages. Thus "37n21, 37-38n22" or "37-38n21, 38n22" would do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- You are quite right, Michael about the nonsense footnote above, I just "pulled something from the air" trying to illustrate how klunky the entries can get. That was a bad example. Here's an actual set of entries for one author in my last index with the same pesky problem: (Publisher's pref, is to use periods with notes.) Betz, H.D. 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 227n.80 "Apostle" 82n.3, 92n.31, 170n.213 Galatians 21n.27, 34n.52, 36n.63, 84, 84n.9, 90n.25, 1 14n.87, 116, 116n.90, 117n.91, 120n.98, 138, 138n.149, 145n.170, 150n.179, 156, 176, 212n.46, 231n.86, 283n.10, 328n.132, 335n.149, 355n.203, 386n.3, 394n.23, 395, 395n.29, 420, 421, 430n.114, 441n.143, 454n.175, 457n.180, 468n.2, 474n.18, 475n.24, 486n.48, 487, 487n.52, 489n.56, 491n.63, 498, 504n.94, 516n.126, 530n.177, 537, 542n.2, 543, 543nn.4,5, 544n.7, 546n.12, 548n.19, 550n.26, 551nn.28,30, 560n.49, 564n.61 "Heresy" 35n.59 "Qumran" 266n.165 It is more precise to put both the page and the page with footnote, and I like that idea, but sometimes it strikes me as stupid to be so repetitive. The index users in this case are, for the most part, university scholars who can easily discern that if their colleague is mentioned in a footnote, their name and/or ideas are mentioned above too. To make it easier to read the entries, perhaps a case could be made for dropping one or the other on the reasoning that, when the reader gets to the right page they are smart enough to find the name they are looking for. In fact, on my last scholarly author index, I asked the author his thoughts. When an author citation occurred in the text and footnote of the same page, his preference was to make an index entry only for the footnote. So, instead of: 116, 116n.90 we had 116n.90 In a long string of entries, I thought it made it easier to pick up the succession of page numbers. Granted, the difference wasn't huge, but I thought it helped. What do you all think? BTW, It was also the author's idea to use subentries for each author's works. In my opinion, the differentiation made the long strings of locators more useful. Made sense to me! Jill Jill Barrett Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:24:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Apprentices ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Following up on an earlier discussion of the apprentice idea, I'm wondering if there are some beginners (probably without previous working experience) in the Seattle area who would be interested in an apprenticeship under the following conditions: 1) My reason is to cover myself when two jobs are coming in at the same time and I don't want to disappoint or turn off one editor. 2) The apprentice (and I would prefer someone with an MLS), would, after some training and practice on an older index that I've done, begin by reading, marking, and inputting entries with a simple program on which I'm working at this time. This program will simply create comma delimited entries in a file that I can then import into Cindex. The advantage here for the beginning indexer is that they don't need to invest in an excellent, but somewhat expensive program for a beginner. 3) Fees would be a matter of agreement, but I am tentatively thinking of a gradually increasing percentage of my billing on a particular job as the beginner gains experience and I find that I need to do less and less checking of the work. 4) There are a lot of questions I know that would need answering still, but I'm throwing this out initially to see what interest there might be. Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:24:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199709200416.XAA27884@mixcom.mixcom.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >This is especially true if you're indexing a book about a programming >language that is case-sensitive. In Java, for example, the gameOver variable >and the GameOver variable are two separate items, and would need separate >index entries. It can also be important in philosophy when, for example, you have to distinguish "being" from "Being." Some of my clients who might prefer initial caps for everything come around to using caps only for proper nouns when I point out instances in which meaning will be lost doing it that way. Although I agree with Janet that what we do is often determined by the field we're working in and what our clients prefer, I also think there's room for persuading them that readers will be better served in a given case by bucking tradition. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:24:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: limerick ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 12:44 PM 9/19/97 -0700, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > >There was a young lady named Pam, >Who tried to help out in a jam, >But in "attractions, nearby" >"Nearby" we imply >'Round said lake (which has no dam) > >Lynn >LOVE limericks!> > OK, you limerick lover: There was a young lady named Lynn Whose last lim'rick was terribly thin -- 'had a helluva time just making it rhyme but it still gave us all a good grin! Michael ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:25:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: definitions in collision ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I hope this gets to the list, which seems to have gone down since yesterday when it spewed over thirty "nondelivery" messages from MCI postmaster into my inbox in its death throes. This has always been a consideration when indexing programming books: how to avoid confusing subentries indicating where a term is "defined" with entries for "definitions" such as class definitions, etc. Usually I've been able to delicately dance around the problem because the word "definition" usually appeared as part of a main entry and I use the word "defined" where a term is defined for the reader. However, this author is really focussing on the concept of "definition", especially as opposed to "declaration", and the word "definition" is finding its way into many subentries without an adjective preceding it (like "class" or "object"). In fact, I see another one of these puppies coming up on the very next page : .h files definitions with external linkages, 27 Now, it's clear from this entry that "definitions" doesn't refer to defining the term ".h file". But, I do have subentries for "defining" (i.e., creating a definition for). (These will probably become main headings on the order of "...adjective... definitions" like class definitions.) To make this even more interesting, there are the usual subentries for "defined" for where a term is actually defined (for human beings, not for the compiler/program ;-D). And in this particular book, the author stresses where he defines terms by putting them in big black boxes on the page saying "DEFINITION:". (Of course when I saw the first one, I was confused for a moment and thought it referred to "definition" as an element in a program. ;-D) While it should be obvious from a particular subentry what the terms "definition", "defined", and "defining" mean, a reader could momentarily miss a beat like I did when I first saw one of the DEFINITION boxes. I knew this was really becoming a problem when I made an entry: enumerations, declaring, requirement to define I know that looks weird, but trust me, the author stressed that you need to declare *and* define enumerations. So, I'm thinking of doing this wherever a term is actually defined for the reader: ...concept defined (as term) I know this is really unusual and am wondering what others think. I don't want to go with bold page numbers and a headnote saying that this indicates where a term is defined. (There's no guarantee that all users will see the headnote, which is why I avoid them.) Nor do I want to go with simply tacking locators for such pages unanalyzed off a main entry with subentries. (I feel this makes the reader have to second-guess the indexer as to what those locators indicate. Remember the lengthy thread I started on this before, over a year ago?) Thanks in advance for your comments, suggestions, etc. (BTW, none of this is a complaint about the book itself. It's truly a joy to index.) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:25:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@aol.com Subject: Readability ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The best book I have found on readability is "Type and Layout" by Colin Wheildon, published by Strathmoor Press, Berkeley, CA. While it does discuss the use of all caps vs. lower case in headlines, it does not mention specifically the use of initial caps in lists such as an index. But you might want to check it out for its many other recommendations on type and readability. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:25:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: sharing business plans In-Reply-To: <199709081726.KAA15906@darkwing.uoregon.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Carol Roberts wrote >I also highly recommend writing up a business plan and reviewing it at >least once a year. Come to think of it, I don't know that we've ever >discussed on Index-L how to write up a business plan. I'd be curious to >know how others did it. I'm interested in this, too. I have a plan that was very useful when starting my business because it helped me prioritize when everything needed doing at once. It is really just a list of phrases, some of which were meant to be checked off, others meant to remind me that any free time is not really unclaimed. (Ultimately, I listed what I thought I needed to hang out my shingle and be assured that I wouldn't make a complete fool of myself if an editor or publisher or author actually did call.) I divided the list/plan into categories. All the entries in each category are subject to change at all times: complete list of top ten reasons why I want to do this instead of anything else skill-building plans (how to increase my skills, knowledge of Cindex for Mac, and portfolio while doing marketing) consulting with other indexers/reading the Index-L (including archives) list of books to purchase over time as the business gets going types of work wanted (for example: not computer manuals) subjects wanted to index - expand or contract this list administrative items (work order, logo (etc) creation, quality control checklist, marketing letter, record keeping forms, invoice forms, research couriers, etc) marketing steps - very specific advertising plan - also very specific productivity measurements, billing and rate possibilities from different starting points, and personal income goal, and what it would take to reach it - in dated increments Could other Indexers add to this list or share their different business plan styles? Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:26:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Chipman Subject: Re: Leap-in with Limericks ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This thread is hard to resist. So I'm reviving an old library school effort, which admittedly may not be so amusing to those unfamiliar with the PRECIS indexing system and its coding conventions. But for what it's worth: There is an indexer called Casey, Whose work habits are a disgrace! He Omits (q)s and (p)s, And $ (v)s 'Cause Casey's too lazy for PRECIS. This had 'em all slapping their knees at a PRECIS workshop I once attended. Alison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:26:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: geographic names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 01:07 PM 9/19/97 -0400, Diane Worden wrote: >CMS is clear about main entries that distinguish a geographic feature from a >similarly named geographic place, e.g., > Geneva, Lake > Lake Geneva, Wis. >I want to correctly treat subjects that are related to a specific lake but >are neither in the lake nor in a particular place associated with it. >Consider these possibilities: > Geneva, Lake > shoreline parks >vs > Lake Geneva region > shoreline parks > >"Lake Geneva region" indicates to me that it refers to both the area >surrounding its namesake town and the lake itself, which has several towns >around it plus shoreline, organizational entitites (many counties, g.g.,), an >encompassing watershed, etc. Because shoreline is not lake, but land, I think >the second option above is better. > >Does anyone have any strong feelings one way or another? Is the noninverted >"...region" main entry legitimate? Or does everything except actual corporate >names get inverted? > Although CMS does say that names of geographical features such as mountains and lakes should be inverted when the descriptive terms such as "Mount" or "Lake" come first, and although Nancy Mulvany says the same thing in _Indexing Books_, I've come to question this convention since learning that some publishers do not follow it. Why don't we index names of geographical features in the same way we index other place names -- in natural language order? Wouldn't natural language order work better than inverted order for our readers, most of whom know nothing about indexing conventions? How many index users would look up "Geneva, Lake" before looking up "Lake Geneva"? Nancy herself acknowledges questions about this convention in quoting Hans Wellisch's objections to it. After characterizing inversion as "a misguided attempt to bring the 'more important' word forward", he says, "Since . . . geographical terms in foreign languages . . . are never inverted, the practice of inversion in English place names is quite incongruous and inconsistent". He concludes by asking pointedly, "Is the Isle of Man to be so entered or is the name to be inverted to Man, Isle of?" In the example at hand (a revision of Pam's version), it seems to me that a construction in natural language order works best: Geneva, Lake. _See_ Lake Geneva region Lake Geneva region, 85 attractions, 92-97 shoreline parks, 72-77 And if the reference on p. 85 were to the lake itself (which includes its bottom and its shoreline!), I think "Lake Geneva" instead of "Lake Geneva region" would work fine for all the entries because the subheadings can be written to make the geographical relationships clear: Lake Geneva, 85 attractions nearby, 92-97 shoreline parks, 72-77 To have to enter these entries under "Geneva, Lake" seems unnecessarily artificial to me. How do others feel about this? Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:27:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Index-l is on again ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi all We experienced one of those non-delivery loops again. It filled the index-l disk so we have been frozen since saturday a.m. I have fixed the problem by deleting the offending address. But in case the problem is not fixed, I will moderate the list until tomorrow a.m. The messages you are about to receive were sent between saturday morning and this afternoon (Monday). I am not posting the messages asking about the non-delivery problems. Thanks for your patience. Charlotte List-owner (who is not all that enthusiastic about technology today) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:26:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Ma. conference ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- We have six openings Saturday (September 27) and hope you will join us for "Hot Topics in Indexing." Workshops on marketing, cookbook indexing, negotiating contracts, content analysis, embedded indexing and web page design will be offered. We start at 8:45 am at the Westin Hotel in Waltham, MA., exit 27 off route 128. Join us! Barbara Stroup, President, Mass. chapter ********************** Note correct present address: 297 Fountain St. Springfield MA 01108 and note too that I'm moving to: 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 in late October!!!! (phone number, e-mail stays the same) phone: 413 785-1835 and e:mail indexa2z@the-spa.com and please correct your ASI Membership Directory and Indexer Locator!! **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:26:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Hello again. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm afraid Lynn will not be posting for a few days. She felt very sick this morning, and then started feeling extreme chest pain which radiated down her left arm and up the left side of her neck. We called 911, and she was taken to the hospital (Western Medical Center). After she had been there for five or six hours, the medical staff determined that she had another heart attack and some congestive heart failure. The heart attack was only detectable through elevated enzymes (creatine kinase, I think) present in her bloodstream (they can only be detected four to six hours after the actual attack). Well, I'll try to keep everyone up to date as much as I can given the limited time available to me for such within my day's schedule. Thank you all. Bob Morgan (Lynn's husband) *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:27:14 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Cross-references ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Sarah asks: I agree, a cross-reference looks silly. Why not just put the one you don't use in brackets after the one you do? RT_DATA server (RT_DATAsrv) Christine (relieved that Index-L is back - I thought I was the only one accidentally unsubscribed) *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:27:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: definitions in collision ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lynn wrote: > So, I'm thinking of doing this > wherever > a term is actually defined for the reader: > > ...concept > defined (as term) > > I know this is really unusual and am wondering what others think. I've started using a common cook book convention a lot in the programming books I index: ConceptABC about 13-15 classes, defining 15-20 defining classes 15-20 declaring 20-21 instantiating 22-25 objects, creating 22-25 etc. I find that an "about" subentry takes care of introductory and explanatory info that would otherwise be hanging around on a main entry. Plus--and this the added bonus for long lists of subentries--it sorts to the top, whereas "overview" or "definition of" or "defined (as concept)" might be buried down too far in the list to be of any real use tot he reader. Opinions? Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:27:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGWeaver@aol.com Subject: Re: Cross-references ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My solution in a case like this where the terms really are synonyms, both need to be included, and they are alphabetically very close to each other is to put the less preferred term (the one that would usually get a SEE reference) in parentheses with the other one, e.g., RT_DATA server (RT_DATAsrv) I don't index computer manuals but find this works well with the types of materials I do index in the health sciences. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service In a message dated 97-09-22 17:26:07 EDT, you write: << I have two terms for the same thing that are right next to each other in the index. Obviously, I'm only going to use one of them in the index but it seems silly to use a cross-reference from the one I don't use. This happens to me a lot but I've never thought to ask the group about it. RT_DATA server RT_DATAsrv See RT_DATA server Creating this seems a bit silly to me. If I was a reader I might be mildly insulted. Both terms are used interchangably in the manual. >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:47:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Mesner Subject: Re: Hello again. Lord, Bob, our thoughts are all with you and Lynn. Lil Mesner At 08:26 AM 9/23/97 ECT, you wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I'm afraid Lynn will not be posting for a few days. She felt very sick >this morning, and then started feeling extreme chest pain which radiated >down her left arm and up the left side of her neck. We called 911, and she >was taken to the hospital (Western Medical Center). After she had been >there for five or six hours, the medical staff determined that she had >another heart attack and some congestive heart failure. The heart attack >was only detectable through elevated enzymes (creatine kinase, I think) >present in her bloodstream (they can only be detected four to six hours >after the actual attack). Well, I'll try to keep everyone up to date as >much as I can given the limited time available to me for such within my >day's schedule. Thank you all. > >Bob Morgan (Lynn's husband) > > >*********************************** >Lynn Moncrief >(techndex@pacbell.net) >TECHindex & Docs >Technical and Scientific Indexing >*********************************** > > **************************************************************************** Lillian R. Mesner Lexington, KY 40546-0091 Technical Services Librarian Phone: 606-257-2758 Agricultural Library Fax: 606-323-4719 University of Kentucky Internet: lmesner@pop.uky.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:54:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Re: Geographic names -Reply I applaud the comments about how inverting geographic names can confound index users' expectations, so therefore, Indexers should consider using natural sequence entries. Both Gerri Gray and Michael Brackney have it right when they suggest that inversion can effectively hide entries from the reasonably perspicacious index user. This discussion demonstrates in one small way how indexing is a communication between Indexer and index user; effective communication requires that Indexers apply indexing rules with intellgence so as to meet user expectations. One way to say it would be that an Indexer's Prime Directive is to anticipate where actual index users will look and place relevant index entries there; all other indexing rules are subservient to the Prime Directive and should be applied to further, not to frustrate, the Directive. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 06:54:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: BIPT online? Does anyone know if there is a way I can reach Book Indexing Postal Tutorials (or Ann Hall) via e-mail? TIA -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Re: limerick Okay, one more (sorry): There once was a listserv at SUNY That must have gone totally loony For it sent out a lot Of non-deliv'rable rot Making Index-L' mail quite balloony. Jenny Rowe jenrowe@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:34:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Re: scholarly author citations-more In a message dated 97-09-22 17:26:18 EDT, Jill writes: > To make it easier to read the > entries, perhaps a case could be made for dropping one or the other on the > reasoning that, when the reader gets to the right page they are smart enough > to find the name they are looking for. I recently encountered this problem (whether or not to index both text and footnote mentions when the two are on the same page) in a book that was intended for a general audience, but which for various reasons also had a lot of sometimes-lengthy footnotes. In the interest of saving space and not creating an overly detailed index for a non-scholarly book, I decided on the following (and added a headnote explaining it): When a name or topic was mentioned in a footnote but not in the text, I indexed the footnote. When a name or topic was mentioned in the text *and* in the accompanying footnote, I indexed the text only. I reasoned that anyone turning to the page to read about X would see the superscript footnote number and follow it to the bottom of the same page for additional information. I also thought that anyone directed specifically to a footnote shouldn't have to search out the superscript number above to see if there was more information in the text. This index was a practice one, so it's not out there in print confusing any readers. Still, I'd like to know what you think: was it a reasonable decision? Jenny Rowe jenrowe@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:56:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Robert Austen Subject: Sending get well wishes! In-Reply-To: <199709231228.HAA29151@belize.ucs.indiana.edu> Bob and Lynn, my thoughts are with you in these difficult times. Yours sincerely, David ----- On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 techndex@pacbell.net wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I'm afraid Lynn will not be posting for a few days. She felt very sick > this morning, and then started feeling extreme chest pain which radiated > down her left arm and up the left side of her neck. We called 911, and she > was taken to the hospital (Western Medical Center). After she had been > there for five or six hours, the medical staff determined that she had > another heart attack and some congestive heart failure. The heart attack > was only detectable through elevated enzymes (creatine kinase, I think) > present in her bloodstream (they can only be detected four to six hours > after the actual attack). Well, I'll try to keep everyone up to date as > much as I can given the limited time available to me for such within my > day's schedule. Thank you all. > > Bob Morgan (Lynn's husband) > > > *********************************** > Lynn Moncrief > (techndex@pacbell.net) > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing > *********************************** > ------------------- David Robert Austen Masters Degree Program in Information Science Indiana University, Bloomington Indiana 47405 U.S.A. Telephone 812 335 8835 Fax 812 335 8598 -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:07:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: scholarly author citations-more >I recently encountered this problem (whether or not to index both text and >footnote mentions when the two are on the same page) in a book that was >intended for a general audience, but which for various reasons also had a lot >of sometimes-lengthy footnotes. In the interest of saving space and not >creating an overly detailed index for a non-scholarly book, I decided on the >following (and added a headnote explaining it): > >When a name or topic was mentioned in a footnote but not in the text, I >indexed the footnote. When a name or topic was mentioned in the text *and* >in the accompanying footnote, I indexed the text only. I reasoned that >anyone turning to the page to read about X would see the superscript footnote >number and follow it to the bottom of the same page for additional >information. I also thought that anyone directed specifically to a footnote >shouldn't have to search out the superscript number above to see if there was >more information in the text. > >This index was a practice one, so it's not out there in print confusing any >readers. Still, I'd like to know what you think: was it a reasonable >decision? > >Jenny Rowe >jenrowe@aol.com ............................................................................ ....................... Jenny's reasoning makes good sense to me as a reader, researcher and writer. An index that lists the footnote only when there are both footnote and text references seems counterintuitive to me. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................................... "Whenever books are burned men also in the end are burned." --Heinrich Heine ..................................................................... BANNED BOOKS WEEK SEPTEMBER 20-27, 1997 CELEBRATE THE FREEDOM TO READ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:00:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Limericks I took a break from beating my brains over psychology to come up with this: A woman just learning to index Was deciding 'twixt Macrex and Cindex. "The demos," said she, "Are too hard to see. My screen's fogged -- I'd better get Windex." Now I'd better go back to my index. I'm in the last third of the book, where you begin to despair of *ever* pulling together a cohesive structure, and you realize that half of your terms begin with one of three words...Urk! (This one is going to take cross-references galore, I fear.) Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:16:53 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Schwilk, Michael" Subject: Wilson Award Hello, I am interested in submitting one of our books, actually, an encyclopedia, for consideration for the Wilson Award. Could someone please respond to me, off-line, with contact information? TIA Michael Schwilk Academic Press ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:54:13 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vivienne S Dunstan Subject: The public's attitude to indexing Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a while now and thought it was about time to introduce myself! I'm training as a book indexer using the Society of Indexer's (UK) distance learning course. I'm over half-way through and hope to qualify as an Accredited Indexer by Christmas, fingers crossed. Part of the reason why I've chosen indexing as a career is because of health circumstances. I'm seriously ill (long term) and often housebound, plus I am limited in how many hours a week I can work. It's difficult to find work which fits this but having thought long and hard, indexing seems ideal, at least on a part-time basis, and is something that I would very much enjoy doing and suits my skills. I'm writing because I had an interesting encounter at the bank today which I'm sure will strike a chord with many out there. I was moving my main account from a neighbouring town branch to Cupar where I now live, and of course there was the obligatory form-filling. When I explained that I was training as a book indexer, the customer services advisor looked stunned and asked me to explain what that was. He'd clearly never thought of anyone doing this job before and was interested to hear about the processes involved etc. When I explained that most of the time I would probably be working with paper proofs, he commented that it's a pity I could not work with text on the computer and highlight words for the index. I explained that index entries are often very different from the words in the text of the book, and it's not always a simple matter of highlighting words like that. I think he got the point :) Anyway, that's another person educated about the job. I suppose there is quite a lot of ignorace out there, largely because it's one of those "hidden" jobs that the general public does not usually see or hear about. Best wishes all. Viv Dunstan (Mrs) Cupar, Fife, Scotland, UK httP://www.almac.co.uk/personal/vdunstan/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: Lake Geneva Is it possible the tradition of inversion of geographic names came from library reference book publishers? To put all the lakes of the world unde= r the word "lake" in a geographical dictionary would create a truly overwhelming list! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:10:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: definitions in collision Ann, Regarding your "about" entry, I use the term "overview." I think they're probably covering the same thing, I just prefer "overview." Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:53:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: personal names I want to be sure that I'm handling a particular case appropriately. When a woman, who is well-known by her surname, marries and hyphenates her husband's name to the end of her surname, would you index her under the hyphenated name (assuming that the reader will understand that not all references include the hyphenated name)? Or is it better to index her under her own surname alone? Example: Whitehead-Gould, Mary Beth vs. Whitehead, Mary Beth The text refers to her by both names. She is best known as Whitehead. Opinions? TIA, Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:38:06 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: BIPT online? In-Reply-To: <875022980.065945.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In message <875022980.065945.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, Kari Bero writes >Does anyone know if there is a way I can reach Book Indexing Postal >Tutorials (or Ann Hall) via e-mail? > >TIA > -Kari > You can reach Ann at: 101233.2664@compuserve.com Good luck, Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:31:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Hello again. Oh, I am SO sorry to hear this! My prayers and best wishes are with you both... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:51:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: personal names At 08:53 AM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >a woman, who is well-known by her surname, marries and hyphenates her >husband's name to the end of her surname, would you index her under the >hyphenated name (assuming that the reader will understand that not all >references include the hyphenated name)? Her surname (singular, she only has one surname) has become Whitehead-Gould. For purposes of alphabetizing, a hyphen (or even a space) is a character in a name, *not* a devise to separate two distinct names. It should be alphebetized as if it read whiteheadgould. Her first name itself is an excellent example of this: "Mary Beth." That's what she wants to be called, you'd alphabetize it under "M" and *not* as Mary Whitehead-Gould. However, if Mary Beth wants to retain her maiden name for professional situations, that's a different story. For example, Paul Newman's wife is Joanne Woodward. Maybe the neighbors address their Christmas cards to Joanne Woodward-Newman, but that's not a professional situation. I reply to this based on some years of experience working on educational conferences, for which many women registered under their hyphenated names. When it came time to stand in line for registration materials, the Mary Beth Whitehead-Goulds got into the W line. (OK; I'll admit that _occassionally_ a Mary Beth would get in the Gould line, and would be upset that we didn't have her listed in the G's. We knew to ask if she might have registered under another surname.) -- LG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:31:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: personal names At 08:53 AM 9/23/97 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote: >I want to be sure that I'm handling a particular case appropriately. When >a woman, who is well-known by her surname, marries and hyphenates her >husband's name to the end of her surname, would you index her under the >hyphenated name (assuming that the reader will understand that not all >references include the hyphenated name)? Or is it better to index her >under her own surname alone? > >Example: Whitehead-Gould, Mary Beth > vs. > Whitehead, Mary Beth > >The text refers to her by both names. She is best known as Whitehead. > First of all, AACR2 says that the most commonly used form of the name should be the main entry. In addition, in cases where women are better known under their birth/original names, CMS suggests that the birth/original name be followed by the husband's name in parentheses: Whitehead, Mary Beth (Mrs.___ Gould) You might want to include a cross reference from Gould, Mary Beth Whitehead to the correct form of the name as given above, since if she is called Mrs. Gould at all in the text, a reader might look that up. If there are lots of people named Whitehead in the index, there might be cause for a cross reference from Whitehead-Gould, Mary Beth to Whitehead, Mary Beth. Otherwise, as we discussed in an earlier thread, with the two entries being so close together it would be redundant to have both. For future reference, according to AACR2, Rules 22.5C3 and 22.5C5, English language hyphenated names for married women are usually entered with the first element of the name first (in this case Whitehead-Gould, Mary Beth), but since she is so well-known under just Whitehead, I think that CMS' suggestion is best. BTW, Whitehead's book (A Mother's Story, 1989) is under her "Mary Beth Whitehead" name and according to the Library of Congress Authority File record, entered by Princeton University's library in 1987, there is a cross reference from Gould, Mary Beth Whitehead to Whitehead, Mary Beth. So it looks like all the while that the Baby M. case was going on, apparently she was Mrs. Gould but did not use that name. Just my opinion. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:20:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BIPT online? Hi, Kari? No, I'd like info about BIPT. Who can tell? Thanks. Thelda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: definitions in collision LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > Ann, > Regarding your "about" entry, I use the term "overview." I think > they're > probably covering the same thing, I just prefer "overview." > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing Leslie, I agree that the two entries are equivalent in meaning. I switched to "about" because I wanted overview information to come first in the list of sub-entries, especially when that list runs on for several columns, as computer entries often seem to do :-). Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:46:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Windex limerick Jim Wilson wrote me: >You didn't explain if the windex in your ditty was the liquid, or >Susan Holberts Software product. Oops! I didn't realize there was a software product named Windex. Had I known, I might have written the limerick differently. My apologies for confusing people; I meant the glass-cleaner (in order to de-fog the screen, you see.) And of course, I meant no disrespect to Macrex, Cindex, or Windex (the software product)! > A woman just learning to index > Was deciding 'twixt Macrex and Cindex. > "The demos," said she, > "Are too hard to see. > My screen's fogged -- I'd better get Windex." Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:23:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Preview release of SKY Index Professional Hi Index-L 'ers I have received many requests from indexers wanting to know if they could buy SKY Index Professional as a sort of "Preview" prior to actual release. Since the time to create a "Preview" installation disk will certainly affect the release date of the final product I am posting this message to find out how many people would be interested in a "Preview" of SKY Index Professional. The Preview, if we decide to do it, would work like this: 1. You would buy the program for the normal price less 10% (see our web site for list pricing and competitive upgrade pricing. http::/www.sky-software.com ) 2. You would receive a beta of the program (the beta is very stable). 3. The beta will include a "partially" completed on-line help file for questions on how to use the many features of the program. 4. You would receive technical support only through email or fax until the program is actually released at which time you would be entitled to phone support also. Please note that we may decide to call you, at our expense, if the problem you have with the beta seems to warrant it. 5. You would automatically receive the finished program with comprehensive manual once the program is released. I want to make one thing about this Preview very clear - The program is still in beta testing and therefore still has some issues to be worked out. Bug reports from our beta testers have dropped to essentially zero and the program is very stable, but you may encounter bugs with the preview that would not be there in the release version of the program. There are also a couple of functions that are not complete. This is why we are offering a 10 percent discount. You will get to use the program before the actual release date and for a lower purchase price. We, on the other hand, will benefit from any reports that you may provide on usability and functionality. If you are interested in a Preview of SKY Index please send email off-line to: kamm@sky-software.com If there is enough interest I will contact you individually by email to let you know how to order the Preview. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:57:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Windex limerick Can Windex be used to clean computer screens? Suellen On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:46:33 -0400 John and Kara Pekar writes: >Jim Wilson wrote me: > >>You didn't explain if the windex in your ditty was the liquid, or >>Susan Holberts Software product. > >Oops! I didn't realize there was a software product named Windex. >Had I >known, I might have written the limerick differently. My apologies >for >confusing people; I meant the glass-cleaner (in order to de-fog the >screen, >you see.) And of course, I meant no disrespect to Macrex, Cindex, or >Windex (the software product)! > >> A woman just learning to index >> Was deciding 'twixt Macrex and Cindex. >> "The demos," said she, >> "Are too hard to see. >> My screen's fogged -- I'd better get Windex." > >Kara Pekar >jkpekar@crosslink.net > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:03:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Cross-references In-Reply-To: <199709230412.XAA28907@mixcom.mixcom.com> >RT_DATA server >RT_DATAsrv See RT_DATA server > I would drop one of them, probably the second. And, no, I don't use a cross-ref in this kind of situation. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:04:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: sharing business plans In-Reply-To: <199709230412.XAA28907@mixcom.mixcom.com> Martha, that's interesting--you and I had very different approaches. In my business plan, I focused more on how much work I would like to have in the first year, say, how much I would charge initially, how many hours I would put in, how much money my husband would be earning (so we could swing this), what office space and equipment I'd need, and so on. So, for example, for the first year, if I'd written it like a list as you did, it would have looked something like this: one book a month to index--charge $20 an hour? Raise rates after 10 books? 50% indexing, 50% copyediting work 3/4 time so I can spend more time with my kids in the afternoon Bob's earnings small office space initially; wait a yr before upgrading computer; buy laser printer; need more book shelves; need filing system business cards Of course, I've revised my business plan several times since then, but that's how it looked in the beginning. It really helped to have set goals, so I could have something to aim at and so I could learn what was realistic and what wasn't. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:28:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Peregrim Subject: Best Wishes to Lynn M. Lynn, While we've never corresponded (via Index-L or otherwise), I'm a fairly new indexer (about a year and a half) in Sacramento, California who's learned a great deal from your posts on Index-L over the last several months of lurking. I always look forward to your next submission. Actually, I first encountered your wit, humor, and insights at the Denver ASI conference in 1996 where, as I'm sure you'll recall, technology did its best to undo your talk. But you persevered and got through it with great aplomb and charm. I've no doubt that you'll do the same now. There was an indexer named Lynn, Whose heart slipped her a Mickey Finn. On the way to hospital She posed a great riddle: "Can I keep writing indexes within?" Please accept my wishes for a speedy recovery. John Peregrim, PhD Indexing Services 5710 Callie Lane, F Sacramento, CA 95841 (916)334-5094 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:38:18 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal" Subject: Re: personal names Lindsay Gower wrote: > When it came time to stand in line for registration materials, the Mary > Beth Whitehead-Goulds got into the W line. Unless, of course, they want to be difficult and not use a hyphen, as I do not. I was kind of railroaded by the military into adopting my husband's last name (they issued me this I.D. card saying I was now a McNeal, I didn't want to bother to fight), but I wanted to keep my maiden name as well--still, I'm not too crazy about hyphens, so I don't use one. My mom also goes by a maiden name/last name/no hyphen combo, but she uses her maiden name in place of a middle name, whereas I wanted to keep my middle name in the form of an initial. It's a darn good thing neither one of us has ever done anything making us worthy of inclusion in an index! (Although, come to think of it, I may actually have to be indexing my mom in a collection of newsletters I might be working on for a non-profit group she's involved with--I will be alphabetizing her under Scinto, as I would put me down under McNeal, even without that annoying hyphen.) Maria F. Scinto No Hyphen McNeal ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:58:44 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: NET*Working '97: Shaping the Online Learning Environment This would be an excellent basis for setting up an accredited online indexing course! AusSI is looking into doing this as part of distance education. Please email me if interested. We already have 20 or 30 enquiries since January 1997 from places like Perth, Weipa, Auckland and Texas! It's interesting that their conference will also be online for several weeks via the Web... Stay tuned. >X-Authentication-Warning: www.edna.edu.au: majordom set sender to owner-vetgroup@www.edna.edu.au using -f >X-Sender: ca114056@mail01.mel.aone.net.au >Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:03:26 +1000 >To: vetgroup@edna.edu.au >From: Jack Gilding >Subject: NET*Working '97: Shaping the Online Learning Environment >Sender: owner-vetgroup@edna.edu.au > > NET*Working '97 > Shaping the Online Learning Environment > http://www.nw97.edu.au/ > > An ANTA National Flexible Delivery > Physical and Online Conference > > Adelaide - 19-21 November 1997 > Online Conference - October 30 - December 12 1997 > >ANTA (the Australian National Training Authority) is >holding a conference on the application of online >technologies in the Vocational Education and Training >(VET) sector. The physical conference will take place in >South Australia at the Adelaide Hilton. > >As well, there will be an online conference conducted in >three stages, prior to, during and after the physical >conference. The online conference will provide an >opportunity for a comprehensive and highly interactive >experience for participants, irrespective of their >attendance at the physical conference. > >Both the online conference and the three day event in >Adelaide will provide a mix of invited keynote and theme >speakers on the application of online technologies in the >VET sector. > >The Conference themes are: >* Managing Change >* Developing Skills >* Changing Work Practices >* Improving Learning >* Developing Hardware, Software & Systems: The Virtual > Campus >* Marketing VET Online: International and National > >International presenters: > * Ron Bleed, Maricopa Community Colleges, USA > * Dr Robin Mason, Open University, UK > * Prof Nigel Paine, Scottish Council of Educational > Technology, UK > >National presenters include: > * Allan Ballagh, Western Melbourne Institute of TAFE VIC > * Sarah Davies, Swinburne University, VIC > * Prof Ashley Goldsworthy, Information Industries > Taskforce, Australia > * Terry Moran, ANTA > * Dr Ian Reinecke, University of Queensland > * Brian Stanford, Department for Employment Training > & Further Education SA > * Neil Strong, TAFE SA > * Lin Thompson, Educational Technology Consultant VIC > >As well, there will be project team presentations from >the ANTA Flexible Delivery National Projects and other >ANTA Flexible Delivery Research and Documentation >projects currently being conducted by each of the States >and Territories. It is also anticipated that the >Conference will inform the development of national >directions for Flexible Delivery for the VET sector for >1998 and beyond. > >This event, whether online or in Adelaide or both, is a >'must not miss' for strategic planners and practitioners. >So be there if you are wanting to contribute to the >strategic planning processes for flexible delivery at a >national level, as well as tapping into the most recent >innovations in online applications in the VET sector. > >Further information can be obtained through the >NET*Working '97 Conference Web Site: >http://www.nw97.edu.au/ > >The conference registration fee is $395 for the Hilton >Conference, $50 for the Online Conference or $425 for >both. > >To obtain a conference registration brochure, fill out >the form on the Conference web site or contact Myriad >Conference Management on >Fax: (08) 8322 6290 or Email: myriad@nw97.edu.au > >Program enquiries can be made to Julie Ahern, Project >Manager, National Online Learning Environment, Office of >Training and Further Education, Victoria, on: >Fax: (03) 9628 2472 >Email: julie.ahern@dse.vic.gov.au > > > > > ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:48:41 +0000 Reply-To: inewby@beryl.ils.unc.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: Index Cards Just wondering if anyone out there still uses paper index cards. I'm working on an index on Rhetoric and the Environment, and I'm finding it helpful to use this method to organize my thoughts! Ilana ********************************************* * * Kingsley Indexing Services * * * 125 Olive Branch Church Road * * Roxboro, NC 27573 * * 910-597-5380 inewby@prairienet.org * * http://www.prairienet.org/~inewby * ********************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:17:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: SKY Index Professional Preview Oops! I was just notified that there is a typo in my posting earlier today. Our web site is: http://www.sky-software.com NOT http::/ ... etc. I apologize if this caused any problems. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 09:50:00 -0600 Reply-To: 3ri.webster@MCI2000.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "m.webster" <3RI.webster@MCI2000.COM> Subject: Re: definitions in collision I like it! Especially the sorting to the top. MiRobin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:09:24 -0600 Reply-To: 3ri.webster@MCI2000.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "m.webster" <3RI.webster@MCI2000.COM> Subject: What is the AACR2? I'm new to indexing. What is the AACR2? From Cynthia: | First of all, AACR2 says that the most commonly used form of the name should | be the main entry. MiRobin Webster (Mister Webster, of 3RI Copyediting) 3RI.Webster@MCI2000.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:21:22 -0600 Reply-To: 3ri.webster@MCI2000.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "m.webster" <3RI.webster@MCI2000.COM> Subject: Re: scholarly author citations-more It makes a lot of sense to me. As a reader, I always glance at the footnote, if I'm interested enough to have looked something up in the index in the first place. On the other hand, how large is the cost (in space, visual clutter, etc.) to include both references in the index, for those who would like the extra information? MiRobin Webster (Mister Webster of 3RI Copyediting) 3RI.Webster@MCI2000.com ---------- | In a message dated 97-09-23, Jennifer writes: | | When a name or topic was mentioned in a footnote but not in the text, I | indexed the footnote. When a name or topic was mentioned in the text *and* | in the accompanying footnote, I indexed the text only. I reasoned that | anyone turning to the page to read about X would see the superscript footnote | number and follow it to the bottom of the same page for additional | information. I also thought that anyone directed specifically to a footnote | shouldn't have to search out the superscript number above to see if there was | more information in the text. | | This index was a practice one, so it's not out there in print confusing any | readers. Still, I'd like to know what you think: was it a reasonable | decision? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:37:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephen Ingle Subject: Re: Ma. conference Hi Barbara, Sorry I can't make it, but I'm running a conference for our local home-based business organization the exact same day! Hope all goes well. Steve Ingle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:23:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: What is the AACR2? At 10:09 AM 9/24/97 -0600, m.webster wrote: >I'm new to indexing. What is the AACR2? AACR2 is Anglo American Cataloging Rules, second revised edition (with 1993 amendments) (ISBN 0-8389-3346-7, hardcover--there is a paperback version, too--ISBN 0-83893360-2). It is the "Bible" for library catalogers who catalog (index) library materials for library catalogs. It is full of many rules for cataloging that are pertinent to general indexing, especially the chapters (21-26) on choice of access points, headings for persons, geographical names, headings for corporate bodies, uniform titles, and cross referencing. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:45:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Indexicon In-Reply-To: <199709222137.RAA150716@rs8.loc.gov> Hello, everyone, Yes, I know automatic indexing is anathema to most of us, but has anyone had any experience with Indexicon? Saw a review (July 1996) of an earlier version by Ann Cope who is a professional indexer and she was "not impressed. [she] was amazed" at how how it performed. If anyone has used it, what do you think of it? Thanks. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:22:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexicon At 08:45 AM 9/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, everyone, > Yes, I know automatic indexing is anathema to most of us, but has anyone >had any experience with Indexicon? Saw a review (July 1996) of an earlier >version by Ann Cope who is a professional indexer and she was "not >impressed. [she] was amazed" at how how it performed. If anyone has used >it, what do you think of it? She was amazed? At what? Indexicion has some ability to index newspapers and journals where entries are drawn largely verbatim from text, but it has no use whatsover as a back-of-the-book tool. It was reviewed for that purpose and soundly rejected by Milstead and Mulvany of the ASI when it was first introduced. Claims included: - Indexicon pays for itself after 50 pages of referencing - The standard for Indexing is here - With just a click of the mouse, you create back-of-the-book indexes. - Professional quality indexes at a rate of up to 50 pages per minute. The review by Milstead and Mulvany found: - Lack of analysis and synthesis expected in a professional index - Omission of entries - Inclusion of silly or irrelevant entries - Failure to recognize concepts that do not appear verbatim - No cross-postings In summary, they said: "Indexicon has not demonstrated the ability to produce a professional quality back-of-the-book index. Even applying the most minimal of criteria, Indexicon cannot create a sensible and thorough back-of-the-book index." The president of the Iconovex Company, Steve Waldron, issued the following written apology: The purpose of INDEXICON (and future products) IS NOT to replace professional indexers. The product is intended for situations where it is not possible for a professional indexer to handle the volume and diversity that can be found in on-line services, newsfiles, and in the generation of internal documents that may be revised by a human indexer. It is also intended to be a tool for professional indexers and others. I agree that INDEXICON cannot replace a professional indexer. We have found that there are two kinds of people; those that think that computers have always been able to do this and those that know that they can't. However, Iconovex never changed their marketing claims. As recently as a few months ago, their Web site contained a sample index generated from a "Car & Driver" article on new cars. The article contained this passage: 25 high rollers will have the opportunity to own a 30th-anniversary Lamborghini Diablo SE. With an optional Formula 1-style gearbox and cockpit-adjustable roll stiffness, it'll be just the thing for keeping up with--or blowing away--the Jones's Ferrari. The ante to play: $277,245. What was the one and only index entry that Indexicon generated for the passage? Lamborghini? Formula-1 gearbox? Cockpit-adjustable roll stiffness? None of the above. The one and only index entry was "Jones's" I guess you could say that I too am amazed by such performance. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:05:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: locators after main heads with subs (from "definitions in collision") At 05:25 PM 9/22/97 ECT, Lynn wrote: >. . . I'm thinking of doing this wherever >a term is actually defined for the reader: > >...concept > defined (as term) > >I know this is really unusual and am wondering what others think. I don't >want to go with bold page numbers and a headnote saying that this indicates >where a term is defined. (There's no guarantee that all users will see the >headnote, which is why I avoid them.) Nor do I want to go with simply >tacking locators for such pages unanalyzed off a main entry with >subentries. (I feel this makes the reader have to second-guess the indexer >as to what those locators indicate. Remember the lengthy thread I started >on this before, over a year ago?) . . . Lynn, I'm addressing this first of all to you in hopes that you are or soon will be able to enjoy receiving your e-mail in the hospital as you did last spring. Hope you're feeling better already. I think that "defined (as term)" is a fine term(!), not so unusual, and probably a better one than "term defined", which I've also seen used to deal with this problem (better because the key word "defined" comes first). I remember the thread you started on "tacking" unanalyzed locators onto main headings with subheadings. Back then I didn't have time to contribute anything, but since you and Ann bring it up again I'll contribute something now. I _do_ add unanalyzed locators to main headings with subheadings when and, except for general page ranges and italicized or annotated locators, _only_ when referring to general descriptions or loose definitions of what the topic is about. I do it this way because it puts such references to the basic "aboutness" of the topic right on top, and because I think this is exactly what a reader would expect one or two short, unstylized references located there to indicate (since the following subheadings are used to break the topic down into various aspects). Like Ann, I dislike subs like "described", "explained", "generally", and "overview" -- and even "defined" or "definition" unless the definition is a formal one -- simply because I don't like to stick references to basic aboutness down somewhere among the subheads for the reader to have to search out and find according to whatever sub the indexer happens to have chosen. (I do use "overview" once in a while if that's precisely what's meant.) "About" as a subheading is a neat improvement on the others as far as filing and ease of recognition goes, but it's not foolproof -- subheads starting with numbers and more than a few other "a..." words would file before it -- and to my mind it's just not as good as the main heading itself. The only problem I've had with this system appears when "about" references coincide with the beginnings of general page ranges. Since I always include such page ranges whenever applicable after main headings with subheadings, I drop coinciding "about" references to avoid the oddity of duplicated page references as in "36, 36-41". Sometimes I think I could just leave them in, and sometimes I've considered annotating them with "d" (for "described" or "loosely defined") in order to distinguish them clearly and not to have to feel like I should drop them, but so far I've been satisfied to drop them and let the reader find them at the beginning of the page ranges where they usually occur. What do others think about this issue? Best to you, Lynn, and everyone, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:09:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Indexicon As a developer of indexing software I was obviously concerned that Indexicon (an automatic index generator) might put me out of business. I tried their demo to create a name index for genealogical text. After seeing the results I was no longer concerned. Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:04:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gerri Gray Subject: Re: Indexicon It seems to me that what Indexicon does is to create a partial concordance to the text. It tells you where certain words are, but does not tell you where the concepts in the text are located. Anyone who has searched full text databases and indexed databases knows that each kind of searching serves a different purpose. I don't see how a partial concordance to a book could be very useful. Gerri Gerri Gray Reference Librarian Loyola/Notre Dame Library Baltimore, MD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:32:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Benjamin E. Slen" Subject: Indexicon I am unfamiliar with Indexicon, is it supposed to be a natural language parser utilizing AI technology or something much simpler? I wonder if natural language processing utilities are capable of the content-based judgments that indexers make? There was a brief thread a while back on the "future of indexing," as AI technologies become more sophisticated, and natural language processing techniques become more advanced, will indexer's jobs be threatened? Just a thought.... -Ben Slen Indexer SAMS Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: mailing resumes/letters I am about to send out some resumes and letters in an effort to acquire more clients. It's been a long time since I've done this, so I have a very anal question about presentation. (For the last few years I've either been emailing or faxing off resumes! No one cared about special paper, etc.) OK, I am currently using coordinating letterhead, business cards, and mailing labels with a design down the left side. Should I send my resume with the first page printed on the letterhead-style paper and the second page printed on coordinating solid paper (basically white bond)? or should I send the resume printed on coordinating solid paper only? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:01:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: mailing resumes/letters In a message dated 97-09-24 15:07:00 EDT, you write: > Should I send my resume with the > first page printed on the letterhead-style paper and the second page printed > on coordinating solid paper (basically white bond)? or should I send the > resume printed on coordinating solid paper only? I save the letterhead-style paper for the cover letter, and just use the coordinating solid paper for the resume. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:10:44 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: mailing resumes/letters I've discussed this with someone from a big city marketing firm with lots of experience seeing resume's. She rec'ds a Crane (or similar) high quality paper, like 24 .lb 100% cotton Ivory. I use it for both resume' and the cover letter and (gold) paper clip them togther. I use a white self adhesive label (laser printed) for the large white envelope it's all mailed in; I'm sure this will be discarded immediately, the color is fine, I'd guess. Actually works to enhance the effect of the high quality paper within, I'm guessing. LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I am about to send out some resumes and letters in an effort to acquire more > clients. It's been a long time since I've done this, so I have a very anal > question about presentation. (For the last few years I've either been > emailing or faxing off resumes! No one cared about special paper, etc.) OK, I > am currently using coordinating letterhead, business cards, and mailing > labels with a design down the left side. Should I send my resume with the > first page printed on the letterhead-style paper and the second page printed > on coordinating solid paper (basically white bond)? or should I send the > resume printed on coordinating solid paper only? > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:26:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexicon Wouldn't you know -- one of us just had to be indexing a book reviewing research on natural language programming and information retrieval (and artificial intelligence gets a small mention). This time I got the job. Of course, I kept thinking early on how odd it was to be reading this text and performing "content extraction" on it when it's all about machines trying to extract content. Then I came across a marvelous paragraph that essentially said it'll be eons before natural language programming will be sophisticated enough to be really usable for information retrieval. I've sent that text off to some on certain ASI committees -- maybe we can get permission to use it in some choice spot. Anyhow, not to worry! Deborah ==================== Deborah Patton, Indexer Baltimore, MD dp1301@aol.com 410/243-4688 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: indexing authors I am indexing a psychology book written in APA style. When discussing an author's work, the author usually gives only the last name, plus a date. The bibliography lists works by the author's last name and first initial. I have two questions: 1. Am I right in believing that the author's full name (as it appears on his/her works) should be used in the index? (Some of the authors are quite well known; I'd feel awkward indexing Freud as "Freud, S.") 2. If the answer to the above question is "yes", does anyone have suggestions on how to locate said authors' first names? By logging in to various college libraries, I've been able to find names for most of the book authors. However, I'm having the dickens of a time finding anything on the article or paper authors. Is there a resource I don't know of which might list these folks? (Or is this really not my responsibility, once I've exhausted my available resources? And how far, in terms of time, effort, and mileage, is it reasonable to go in order to locate or verify information?) Thanks in advance for your help, and thanks all the folks who helped out on my APA style manual question. It's really comforting to know there are so many knowlegeable, helpful, and supportive people out there! Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:40:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Kwilecki Subject: test Just testing this address. I'm having trouble sending a request. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:18:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: geographic names Once, again, context rears its ugly head. In most general books and entry of the form "Lake Geneva" works just fine. And I agree that it is preferable to "Geneva, Lake." However, in a book in the ecology of lakes, for instance, there might be columns upon columns of entries beginning with the word "Lake." In that case, it might make more sense to use the distinguishing word as the beginning of the heading. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services "There are no rules, only contexts" [tm] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:40:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: indexing authors At 01:56 PM 9/24/97 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote: >1. Am I right in believing that the author's full name (as it appears on >his/her works) should be used in the index? (Some of the authors are quite >well known; I'd feel awkward indexing Freud as "Freud, S.") IMO, though APA style doesn't specifically mention indexing rules, the overriding rule it DOES cover is first initial[s] and last name for all references to authors. If you've looked through the notes or bibliography for this book, it probably shows Freud's work as "S. Freud." If it doesn't, it's not following APA style thoroughly. In the many social science books I've indexed that use APA style, I've always indexed authors by first initial[s] only. This seems to be preferred by publishers as well. And in fact, if the bibliography or notes are done APA style, you won't even be able to locate full first names. And under normal circumstances, an indexer is NOT expected to do this sort of research without extra compensation. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:50:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: indexing authors At 01:56 PM 9/24/97 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote: > >1. Am I right in believing that the author's full name (as it appears on >his/her works) should be used in the index? (Some of the authors are quite >well known; I'd feel awkward indexing Freud as "Freud, S.") I agree, it is better to have the full name if possible; however, many publishers in the sciences tend to just use the first initial and last name of authors in the bibliography. > >2. If the answer to the above question is "yes", does anyone have >suggestions on how to locate said authors' first names? By logging in to >various college libraries, I've been able to find names for most of the >book authors. However, I'm having the dickens of a time finding anything >on the article or paper authors. Is there a resource I don't know of which >might list these folks? See below. (Or is this really not my responsibility, once >I've exhausted my available resources? And how far, in terms of time, >effort, and mileage, is it reasonable to go in order to locate or verify >information?) As I have said before, anything that you can add to the value of the index, thereby saving a busy editor time, will be to your advantage. I usually try to make names and all as complete as possible, because I learn something each time that comes in handy in later projects that I do. However, if you have tight deadlines, you cannot be expected to do a great deal of extra work. You might try the following to verify author names for journal articles on psychology: TITLE: Psychological abstracts. Author index. PLACE: Arlington, VA : PUBLISHER: American Psychological Association, YEAR: 1984 9999 PUB TYPE: Serial FORMAT: v. ; 27 cm. FREQUENCY: Annual NUMBERING: Vol. 71 (Jan.-Dec. 1984)- NOTES: Published: Washington, D.C., 1991- ISSN: 0033-2887 SUBJECT: Psychology abstracts -- Indexes. Psychology -- Abstracts -- Periodicals -- Indexes. ALT TITLE: Psychological abstracts. Semiannual index (OCoLC)31196259 OTHER: American Psychological Association. TITLE: Psychological abstracts PLACE: Washington, etc.: PUBLISHER: American Psychological Association YEAR: 1927 9999 PUB TYPE: Serial FORMAT: v. 26 cm. NUMBERING: v. 1- Jan. 1927- NOTES: Microfiche. Greenwich, Conn. : Johnson Associates. microfiches ; 11 x 15 cm. PsychFirst (online database of 1,300 journals on psychology and related fields--current year + 3 most recent years--usually available in university libraries) Biographical Dictionary of Psychology, by Noel Sheehy, ed., et al. Routledge. 1997. The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology, by Arthur S. Reber. Penguin. 1996. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:15:11 -0500 Reply-To: sdhdis@mail2.theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Re: mailing resumes/letters > OK, I > am currently using coordinating letterhead, business cards, and mailing > labels with a design down the left side. Should I send my resume with the > first page printed on the letterhead-style paper and the second page printed > on coordinating solid paper (basically white bond)? or should I send the > resume printed on coordinating solid paper only? > Leslie, As Dorothy Ann on The Magic School Bus always says, "according to my research," here are some resume guidelines ( from the book "The Smart Woman's Guide to Resumes and Job Hunting" by Julie Adair King): - Select white, off-white, ivory, or buff-colored paper - easiest to read, (probably) won't inflame personal bias - Use good quality, medium weight paper- 24lb is good. The envelope, cover letter, resume, and attachments should all be on the same quality paper. - The resume should be easy to read, lots of white space (or buff-space, depending on the paper), neat and clean Being creative has its place in some industries (is publishing a creative industry?), but I agree with Peg that the resume should be unadorned. Save the fancy sidebar for the cover letter. The book also recommends that you use a serif typeface, not sans serif. It improves readability. Highlight with boldface type, not by mixing typefaces, underlining, or using all caps. With respect to the caps, and at the risk of raising an apparently touchy subject, "research shows that (the all caps) treatment slows and even stops the eye from reading" (King). Good Luck! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottesen Subject: Online Help System Indexing -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hello everyone: I have been lurking for awhile trying to learn more about the art and science of indexing. I am an engineer turned technical writer, and I am very interested in indexing for two reasons. The first is that I am writing an online Help system right now that has (actually needs) an index. The second is that in the future I may need to find a way to earn at least part of my living from home and so far, at least, indexing seems interesting and fun. I bought Mulvany's book, which was very helpful, and I am planning on taking the USDA course. Anyway, my short term question is the following. I gather from Mulvany's book that main headings are usually made up of nouns. Help systems, on the other hand, are usually task oriented and have action oriented titles, for example, Selecting Data Points, Selecting a Display, Selecting an Analysis Method, etc. How would you handle an index in this case? Would you index like this: analysis methods selecting data points selecting displays selecting or selecting analysis methods data points displays or both? There are no pages numbers of course, the entries are all links. I have looked at all kinds of Help system indexes and they don't seem to follow the relatively strict structure that I find in paper documentation and books. Also, does anyone know of any reference sources for Help system indexing? Thank you very much, Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:59:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Online Help System Indexing At 08:45 PM 9/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >How would you handle an index in this case? Would you index like this: > >analysis methods > selecting >data points > selecting >displays > selecting > >or > >selecting > analysis methods > data points > displays > > or both? There are no pages numbers of course, the entries are all >links. > My personal opinion, as a frustrated user of online help, is that it doesn't make a hill of beans which style you use as long as you get the information in there. Far and away the most common failing I find with online Help is that the material is simply not covered or is covered under some arcane heading that I don't recognize. I believe the outline for a successful online Help system would be an exhaustive matrix of all objects in the product and their respective actions. Ensure that your choice of terms matches the terms used by your readers. Develop all the explanatory material for these objects and actions then present it as either object/action or vice versa. As long as you are consistent the reader will pretty quickly recognize your style. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:45:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexing authors Kara, I second Sonsie's response in that I've only been asked to go as far as using initials with last names. For the scholarly books I've done, the rule of thumb with my clients has been to follow the bibliography. Here's a tip, though, on adding those initials. At first I would waltz back to the bibliography every time I made an author entry to add the initials, check spelling, make sure I had the right person (often there is more than one author with the same last name.) I found that it is easier to enter the name and date (or whatever qualifying info is given) as they appear in the text without stopping. Then, after all the entries are made (and in alphabetical order) it is very easy to go straight through the bibliography adding initials (having the date, title, or whatever, lets you distinguish between authors with the same last name), checking spelling, etc. Jill Jill Barrett Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:46:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Re: scholarly author citations-more In a message dated 97-09-23 10:39:24 EDT, you write: << When a name or topic was mentioned in the text *and* in the accompanying footnote, I indexed the text only. I reasoned that anyone turning to the page to read about X would see the superscript footnote number and follow it to the bottom of the same page for additional information. >> I have to admit, that was my first reaction to. I figured that after getting the reader to the right page they could follow the text down to the footnote. However, the author wanted to go with citing the footnote, instead. I don't know exactly why. I thought about it and decided that probably the reason we index significant footnotes in the first place is because that information is not obvious and is often missed. As a reader, I do not always notice the superscript footnote numbers when they appear in the text because I'm so engrossed in the topic. With this in mind, I figured that a pointer to the footnote would alert the reader to the footnoted info and, by inference, suggest that there is more related material appearing above. I'm not convinced that either approach (citing text only or footnote only) is always the best way to go. Citing both text and footnotes, is of course, the most precise. I just want to continually review my indexing methods for practicality and not only strict adherence to "rules." Thanks to all who responded! Jill Jill Barrett Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:46:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Re: mailing resumes/letters Hi Leslie, I have always done the cover letter on my business stationery with bus. card paper clipped (not stapled - too much trouble to get off) to the top. (It must be removed to read the second page (and hopefully, then immediately put with their other cards.) The resume is printed on a blank sheet of matching paper (not on letterhead.) I like the way it looks and have gotten good results with this. Good luck with the expansion! Jill Jill Barrett Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:39:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: locators after main heads with subs (from "definitions in collision") Michael Brackney wrote: > I _do_ add unanalyzed locators to main headings with subheadings when and, > except for general page ranges and italicized or annotated locators, _only_ > when referring to general descriptions or loose definitions of what the > topic is about. I do it this way because it puts such references to the > basic "aboutness" of the topic right on top, and because I think this is > exactly what a reader would expect one or two short, unstylized references > located there to indicate (since the following subheadings are used to break > the topic down into various aspects). > "About" as a subheading is a neat improvement on the others as far as filing > and ease of recognition goes, but it's not foolproof -- subheads starting > with numbers and more than a few other "a..." words would file before it -- > and to my mind it's just not as good as the main heading itself. > > The only problem I've had with this system appears when "about" references > coincide with the beginnings of general page ranges. Since I always include > such page ranges whenever applicable after main headings with subheadings, I > drop coinciding "about" references to avoid the oddity of duplicated page > references as in "36, 36-41". Absolutely. I edit the heck out of my "about" references when I get the whole index put together. In a recent computer book, I used the "about" entry in this way: several section/chapters of the book had 1)a 1- or 2-page overview of the topic of the chapter, followed by 2)detailed steps on how to use the concept do the tasks, etc, and then 3)a 1-page summary of the steps just performed. I put both the the introductory pages and the summary-of-steps pages on the "about" locator for the main topic. I ended up with things like: panes, custom about 300-302, 351 commands, adding 319-329 creating with xxx 303-307 creating with yyy 311-318 editing attributes 330-350 scrollers, adding 308-312 It could just as easily have been: panes, custom 300-302, 351 commands, adding etc, etc Thoughts? Ann ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:01:33 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Green Subject: Indexing courses in the UK? Does anyone know of any short (1 day?) courses on Indexing in the UK? Or, do you know any good indexers who could come to Cambridge (UK) to run a short training session for 6-8 technical writers? I work in the technology transfer department of a software company. We are keen to develop our indexing skills but, no - we do not all want to go on long intensive courses aimed at proto-librarians. Please can you help? David Green. -- All opinions expressed in this message are purely personal and do not reflect the opinions or policies of Smallworldwide Ltd. David Green Ext: 2004 David.Green@Smallworld.co.uk (Technical Transfer Group ) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:38:40 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Resumes/CVs >From Christine Headley I would be interested to know what information people put in Resumes/CVs. (Are these synonyms or is there a difference?) Is it better to have a customised one-page document, or a catch-all longer one? Do editors appreciate length or conciseness? Is there a consensus on this, or a lot of different viewpoints? Is it a matter of 'horses for courses'? If so, what are the criteria? Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:08:44 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Resumes/CVs; How Long and what? Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > > >From Christine Headley > > I would be interested to know what information people put in Resumes/CVs. > (Are these synonyms or is there a difference?) My resume was nearly three pages long. I've been advised to ALSO have a one or two page ver. which I'd use for the initial contact. They can always ask for the long version if they want more details. Have a goal statement customized for each prospective employer. Cheers, D > > Is it better to have a customised one-page document, or a catch-all longer > one? Do editors appreciate length or conciseness? > > Is there a consensus on this, or a lot of different viewpoints? > > Is it a matter of 'horses for courses'? If so, what are the criteria? > > Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:14:56 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Anderman Guenther Subject: Re: indexing authors Jillbarret@AOL.COM wrote: > Kara, > > I second Sonsie's response in that I've only been asked to go as far > as using > initials with last names. For the scholarly books I've done, the rule > of > thumb with my clients has been to follow the bibliography. > > Here's a tip, though, on adding those initials. At first I would > waltz back > to the bibliography every time I made an author entry to add the > initials, > check spelling, make sure I had the right person (often there is more > than > one author with the same last name.) I found that it is easier to > enter the > name and date (or whatever qualifying info is given) as they appear in > the > text without stopping. Then, after all the entries are made (and in > alphabetical order) it is very easy to go straight through the > bibliography > adding initials (having the date, title, or whatever, lets you > distinguish > between authors with the same last name), checking spelling, etc. > > Jill > Jill Barrett Indexing Services My addition to Jill's tip -- which is also my standard way of working -- add some unique characters that will not appear elsewhere (I use ??). That way you can do a quick search after you think you have made the additions of initials (delete the characters as you add the initials) & be certain no entries are left incomplete. At the very least this gives a quick list to query the editor. More than once I have gotten to the end of checking only to find an author cited a reference in the text but forgot to include it in the bibl. Editors have appreciated learning about these. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:25:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Resumes/CVs In-Reply-To: <199709250841.AA14026@world.std.com> I'm also interested in how much detail people put on their resume. Until now, I've listed all my freelance jobs but now they will no longer fit (along with my education and work experience before freelancing) on two pages and I agree that a three-page resume is not great. I'm sure there are people here whose freelance work wouldn't fit on 5 pages. So how do you summarize? Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:23:41 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: indexing authors In-Reply-To: <199709250044.RAA13062@pacific.net> Sonsie wrote: >IMO, though APA style doesn't specifically mention indexing rules, the >overriding rule it DOES cover is first initial[s] and last name for all >references to authors. If you've looked through the notes or bibliography >for this book, it probably shows Freud's work as "S. Freud." If it doesn't, >it's not following APA style thoroughly. Right. I recently had to write separate author and subject indexes for a large psych text. The author index had 1400 names, most of which had multiple entries and multiple entry locations (Smith, Jones, Miller, et. al.; Jones and Miller; Miller, Smith, and Smith; etc.). I had to look up every last one of those names, and for most of them, every time they occurred (because of surname repetition), in the huge bibliography, which gave only initials per APA style. There is no way I would have looked for first names. If the author doesn't include them in the bibliography, APA style or no, the author obviously doesn't care if they are in the index or not. And for me to have looked for those names would have taken weeks! The schedule would have prevented it even if I were willing to do that kind of clerical task, which I am not (not without being recompensed for every hour I spend doing it). Whew. I definitely asked for, and got, $.25 more per page than my normal (single index) rate with my client (whom I love, btw). I've done author indexes before but never one on this magnitude. I did find a number of omissions in the biblio, name spelling inconsistencies, etc., so I certainly functioned as a serious proofreader in addition to writing the index. Obviously, if the author writes "C. G. Jung" I'm capable of determining what the first name is without the author's help. But "J. Smith"? No. I suppose what it really comes down to is, what constitutes a reasonable effort on my part? Biographical dictionaries and subject familiarity are one thing, extensive library searching for 1400 names is quite another. And then there's Kara's problem, which probably falls somewhere in between. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:00:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Educating authors on indexing Yesterday I saw in a bookstore a new book on how to get published. I'd seen it announced in _Publishers Weekly_ and was interested in whether it mentioned indexes. The book is _The Shortest Distance Between You and a Published Book_ by Susan Page. I was pleased with what it said. "Index" is in the index. and the two or three paragraphs essentially tell authors that publishers of nonfiction books prefer to hire professional indexers and that we're worth it (a rate of $2.50 to $3.00/page is quoted). The author explains how the author is expected to pay for the index out of royalties and says this is nonnegotiable. A small step, but progress, I think. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA * mmortensen@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:37:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: indexing authors A heartfelt thank-you to everyone who responded to my query about APA style author listings. I've contacted the editor (via email), telling him what the prevailing wisdom was (i.e., to go with names as listed in the bibliography), and asking him whether that was all right, or whether he preferred full name listings. He was not all that familiar with APA style in relation to indexes, so I suspect it will be fine to go with initials rather than first names. If so, it will shave a goodly amount of search time off my schedule! I really appreciated your responses, and your suggestions on entering now and checking later. That will save some time next time I'm in a similar situation! Again, let me share my appreciation of everyone on Index-L. You all are a wonderful group. I'm particularly impressed by how supportive Index-Lers are of neophyte and just-getting-started indexers (like me!) Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:17:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Online Help System Indexing -Reply Use both. The Golden Rule of Indexing-- especially something like on-line help files-- is "Where is the user going to look for it?" Furthermore, "user" has many different definitions. This is where a good indexer's skills shine. With an on-line help system, you need to use your imagination and put yourself in the position of as many different users as possible: Beginners, programmers, people comfortable with and conversant in computer terminology, people who still refer to the monitor as "that tv thing on top" (not that I'm suggesting that as an index entry!). :-) You know your product and your target market, so make the on-line help as user-friendly as possible. Good luck! Sounds like a fun project! -- Sharon W. >>> Ottesen 09/24/97 09:45pm >>> -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hello everyone: I have been lurking for awhile trying to learn more about the art and science of indexing. I am an engineer turned technical writer, and I am very interested in indexing for two reasons. The first is that I am writing an online Help system right now that has (actually needs) an index. The second is that in the future I may need to find a way to earn at least part of my living from home and so far, at least, indexing seems interesting and fun. I bought Mulvany's book, which was very helpful, and I am planning on taking the USDA course. Anyway, my short term question is the following. I gather from Mulvany's book that main headings are usually made up of nouns. Help systems, on the other hand, are usually task oriented and have action oriented titles, for example, Selecting Data Points, Selecting a Display, Selecting an Analysis Method, etc. How would you handle an index in this case? Would you index like this: analysis methods selecting data points selecting displays selecting or selecting analysis methods data points displays or both? There are no pages numbers of course, the entries are all links. I have looked at all kinds of Help system indexes and they don't seem to follow the relatively strict structure that I find in paper documentation and books. Also, does anyone know of any reference sources for Help system indexing? Thank you very much, Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:17:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Resumes, CV's Writing resumes is one of my other jobs. The company I work for recommends one page if at all possible, two only if there is a long and varied work history demonstrating different facets of the person's experience. Additional information, such as a list of books indexed, would go on a separate "addendum" page, which could be tailored for specific purposes without changing the basic resume. A CV is an academic resume, highlighting education and including publications, conference presentations, specialty subjects, etc. Jenny Rowe jenrowe@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:33:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: indexing authors Jill and Nancy have described their techniques of handling these author entries so I thought I'd chime in with my variations, in two situations. 1. In the case where I won't have to index all authors in the bibliography, I consult the biblio. as I'm marking pages and write the first name or initials in the margin next to the author's marked name. This saves me a lot of time during entry, as I don't have to flip to the biblio. 2. In the case where all authors cited are to be indexed, I skip the step above and insted enter all names from the biblio., without page numbers, before starting to enter any other index entries. If there are multiple authors with the same surname, I'll include the year (and delete it later.) Then when I come to an author citation in the text, I can just add the page number to the entry already in my index file. If there are spelling discrepancies, or authors missing from the biblio., I find them at this time. When I print out a draft of the index in page number order (standard procedure for me), any authors that do not have page numbers sort to the top where I can find them easily (I use Macrex) and delete them. I have also indexed books with large bibliographies and many multi-authored works like the one Victoria described. After a couple of these, I realized that I could save time if I entered the second, third, etc. authors as subentries after the first author's name. As I index, I just have to enter the page number for a reference once, for example: Smith, W., Jones, M., Miller, A., 50 Then as I edit the index, I move those subentries to become main entries and automatically have the correct page numbers. I do have to check carefully to make sure that I haven't missed any. Hope this helps someone, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA * mmortensen@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:34:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: locators after main heads with subs (from "definitions in Ann wrote: << It could just as easily have been: panes, custom 300-302, 351 commands, adding etc, etc Thoughts? >> I'm with Michael - I do this all the time. To me, "aboutness" is the key - if the material is "about" custom panes per se, and not "about" any of the subentries, it seems logical to me to put the page references at the main heading level. I guess this thinking stems partly from the 10 years I spent analyzing data for database structures using entity-relationship modeling and normalization (3rd normal form, etc.) if anyone is familiar with those concepts. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA * mmortensen@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:37:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Resumes/CVs -Reply I had a lot of luck with an "annotated" resume. What you hear from all of the experts is that, ideally, your resume should be no more than one page. However, when you have a lot of varying job experiences, like I did, one page isn't enough. I compromised on a style that listed on the top page all of the important stuff (name, address, etc., education, special skills, etc.), and under the heading "Experience" (or "Work Experience" or whatever I used), I simply listed my previous jobs in reverse chronological order, including my title, the name of the company, the location and the dates employed. At the end of this list, I centered an italicized phrase that said something like, "For further details, see following pages." (It actually said something better than that, but I don't remember off the top of my head). On pages 2 and 3, I again listed each job in chronological order and included an explanation of my duties and skills at each position. I got a lot of compliments on this style from various places that I interviewed. It may not be appropriate for everyone, but it worked well for me. By the way, Word Perfect 6.1 has a wonderful feature called "Make It Fit" that came in very handy with my resume. After entering all of the information in roughly the format you want (including bullets, scaled fonts, etc.) you click on "Make It Fit" and tell the computer how many pages you want it to fit on, and select what features it can adjust in order to accomplish this: Margins, font sizes, line spacing, etc., and it automatically adjusts your resume to fit on one page. Of course, you may end up with weird font sizes (11.3, 9.7, etc.), but it looks really good! :-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:04:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Online Help System Indexing In a message dated 97-09-24 23:45:17 EDT, you write: > Help systems, on the > other hand, are usually task oriented and have action oriented titles, for > example, Selecting Data Points, Selecting a Display, Selecting an Analysis > Method, etc. > > How would you handle an index in this case? Would you index like this: > > analysis methods > selecting > data points > selecting > displays > selecting > > or > > selecting > analysis methods > data points > displays > > or both? Hi Susan, For task oriented topics, like in computer-related manuals, index entries often start with a gerund, which is a noun derived from a verb. So I'd go with your second example, and: > analysis methods, selecting > data points, selecting > displays, selecting I use terms that the user is familiar with, so it's common to see index entries like the following in computer-related manuals: booting the system installing software troubleshooting Hope this helps. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:19:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: online help indexing Hi Susan, I use both task-oriented and noun-based entries in my online indexes. You don't have any space constraints, so use both kinds of entries. What I would do, if you are using RoboHelp or any of the help authoring systems, is turn off the features that automatically include the topic titles as index entries. You can tell when an index has included these -- almost every index entry begins with "About...." or "Using...", neither of which is helpful. If you want to learn more about online indexing, here's some resources: Lathrop, Lori. "Considerations in Indexing Online Documents," Intercom, January 1996, p. 14-15, 39. Also at http://www.bwa.org/articles/ref4.htm This contains a great list of things to index. Lathrop, Lori, "Indexing with Doc-To_help," hrrp://www.bwa.org/articles/ref3.htm This discusses one tool's approach to online indexing. Wright, Jan C. "How to Index Online," The Indexer, April 1997, 115-120 This is an overview of the different kinds of online indexes, and how to straighten out project issues before beginning an index. Wright, Jan C. "Working with WinHelp Keywords," WinHelp Journal, Winter, 1996, 12-17, Spring/Summer, 1996, 29-35. This is specifically geared towards Windows Help keywords, and I try to indicate basic style issues. You can also send email to me for a copy of this. If you are working with HTMLHelp indexing, Michael Brackney (is that right, Michael???) on the listserv has some experience with this - I am due to do my first one in this new system this month, and then can speak glowingly or abusively after that. You might also want to contact Bill Meisheid at Sageline - they have been working on a new tool to help with WinHelp indexing. wgm@sageline.com Good luck!!! Jan C. Wright -- Wright Information Indexing Services -- -- jancw@aol.com -- http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm -- "One has two duties: to be worried and not to be worried." -- E. M. Forster ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:16:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Venneman Subject: New Software Hi All, Just happened to see that they have new information on Cindex for Windows (updated 9/23/97). Release in Nov. at $525. For us new indexers, with student versions of Cindex the issue now is....... Cindex for Windows or....... SkyIndex Pro issued in October at $495 less 20% for ASI members. Hmmmmmmm. Comments anyone? I am assuming the purchase price of Cindex student version is applied to the Windows version. Web site for Cindex info is www.indexres.com/cindex Thanks, Pam ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:21:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Online Help System Indexing First an editorial comment: IMHO, most online help systems (Office 95 'help' being an excellent example!) are neither user friendly nor helpful; I'm generally amazed when I find what I'm looking for. Which is why I have retained all my older printed applications manuals, since there's a chance that the indexes to those will help me find what I'm looking for in the online help for the current version. Software publishers may save money by skipping the printed documentation; but they are doing a major disservice to their users. I have half a dozen utilities/applications preinstalled on my computer that would probably be quite useful if I had any ideal what they were for; but without the documentation I've never used them; and the only reason they're still taking up space on the hard drive is I don't know if it's safe to delete them! But to answer your specific question, I personally would NEVER use 'selecting' as an entry point. There are entirely too many synonyms for the gerund: choosing, finding, picking, etc. Go for the object, which is much less likely to be ambiguous. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service << How would you handle an index in this case? Would you index like this: analysis methods selecting data points selecting displays selecting or selecting analysis methods data points displays or both? There are no pages numbers of course, the entries are all links. >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:25:10 -0600 Reply-To: kblack@itsnet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristen Black Subject: Re: Online Help System Indexing On Sept 24, Susan Schionning wrote the following: (snip) > Anyway, my short term question is the following. I gather from Mulvany's > book that main headings are usually made up of nouns. Help systems, on the > other hand, are usually task oriented and have action oriented titles, for > example, Selecting Data Points, Selecting a Display, Selecting an Analysis > Method, etc. > > How would you handle an index in this case? Would you index like this: > > analysis methods > selecting > data points > selecting > displays > selecting > > or > > selecting > analysis methods > data points > displays > > or both? There are no pages numbers of course, the entries are all > links. I worked as a technical writer, then editor, for a very large software company for four years, and I did a lot of online indexes in my time. Since an online index is much harder to scan, we used all the entry points/search terms we could. So I would use both "data points, selecting" and "selecting, data points" (commas being where the head/subhead breaks.) I also made sure that synonyms were covered so that no matter how the user tried to get the information, he could find it--for example, I listed "removing, tables," "deleting, tables," "erasing, tables," etc. However, under tables, I usually just listed "tables, deleting" unless the list under "tables" was too long (in which case I did use some or all of the synonyms there as well so the user didn't have to scroll forever to find what he wanted). It did sometimes make for a long index, but space wasn't really an issue, and usability was important to me. (Many of the Help files were several hundred, even a couple thousand, topics long.) Printed indexes are a whole different beast, since they're so much easier to scan. One thing to be aware of is vague terms like "selecting" or "displaying." They're fine to use, but if you list everything that is selected, it could be a very long list. Make sure only relevant terms are listed--terms that really would be looked up or that a user really would want to find out how to select. I've seen (and probably written) lots of useless terms. Also, make sure that the terms are consistent--always use the infinitive or the gerund form of the verb. Likewise for nouns, be consistent in always using singular or plural. For online indexes, we used the infinitive form of the verb and the singular form of the noun, unless the noun made more sense as a plural. This is especially important when editing an index that more than one writer contributed to. I saw lots of variations. I'm not aware of a specific style guide for online indexes. For quite some time, we had an in-house indexing specialist who developed her own training for us. After she left, her training guides were still our "bibles." I can't see that she has a web site, but if you really want to get in touch with her, I could probably give you her address and phone number. Good luck! Kristen Black Freelance Editor, Writer, and Indexer kblack@itsnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:48:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Resumes/CVs My librarian resume is about 10 pages long, after 30 years in the business. But I quickly figured out that most of that is irrelevant to freelance indexing, and it's just generally summarized in my indexing resume as part of my subject expertise as a medical indexer. I have a separate indexing resume which is updated and printed off whenever I need to send it out. When I was starting out I included everything I could think of that was even vaguely related to indexing (database search experience, publishing, etc.) but as soon as I had real indexing experience to cite, the peripheral stuff dropped out. I made the decision a couple of years ago that the indexing resume must never exceed 2 pages (putting myself in the shoes of the editor receiving such) and as a result have started limiting the contents to references to all recent projects (last 2-3 years) , plus selective entries for older material that I'm particularly proud of, or that show subjects that are peripheral for me. I also usually include a sample (3-4 pages printed in columns) of an index relevant to the person the resume is going to. For instance, a scholarly publisher gets a scholarly sample; a medical publisher gets a medical sample, etc. When I read a resume (and I've screened a LOT thru the years!) I want it short, accurate, and to the point, with no typing or factual errors, and a minimal use of fussy fonts/formatting that show off people's computer skills but detract from the content. I assume that editors are similarly picky. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:01:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: To PNW indexers: Fall meeting announcement (fwd) Just a reminder that the registration deadline for the PNW/ASI chapter meeting on October 4 is fast approaching. (The original announcement is repeated below.) I hope to see all of you in Olympia! Carolyn Weaver President, PNW/ASI =========================================================================== PACIFIC NORTHWEST CHAPTER AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS Saturday, October 4, 1997 12noon - 4p.m. Genoas on the Bay 1525 Washington St NE, Olympia, WA IT TAKES ALL KINDS: Indexing and Related Tasks of Non-freelance Professionals Our panelists will discuss how indexing and related information organization skills fit into their companies, and their products. Panelists include: * David Pearlstein, Director of Research and Marketing at Professional Library Services. PLS provides research and document delivery services, document imaging, and indexing services. * Lee Lawing is a keyworder at PhotoDisc, which publishes over 50,000 images both online and on CD-ROM. Lee indexes and categorizes PhotoDisc images. * David Hastings is the Archivist at Washington State Archives. Archival collections usually have accompanying finding aids that are an interesting blend of indexes and catalogs. 12:00 - 1:30 Lunch, Networking, "Ask an Indexer". As usual, we will make sure that working indexers are sitting at each table, so that new and potential indexers have a chance to ask questions. 1:30 - 2:00 Business Meeting. Hear what we have accomplished since our last meeting and what we are planning for the rest of the year. 2:00 - 4:00 Panel Discussion and Questions DIRECTIONS from I-5 Southbound: Take the exit towards State Capitol / City Center / Port of Olympia. Keep RIGHT at the fork in the ramp. Merge onto E. Bay Dr, which becomes Plum St SE. Turn LEFT onto State Ave NE. Turn RIGHT onto Washington St. DIRECTIONS from I-5 Northbound: Take the exit towards State Capitol / City Center / Port of Olympia. Keep LEFT at the fork in the ramp. Merge onto 14TH Ave SE. Turn RIGHT onto Capitol Way S. Turn RIGHT onto 4TH Ave. Turn LEFT onto Washington St. FEE: $20 ASI members; $25 non-ASI members. Includes lunch. (Select lunch from menu.) Three vegetarian pasta dishes are available. To request other options, call Genoas at 360-943-7770.) Registration deadline: Thursday, October 2, 1997. Please send a copy of this registration form and your check payable to PNW Chapter/ASI to: Louise Martin, Secretary/Treasurer, PNW/ASI 3829 SE Harrison, Portland, OR 97214-5944 Names of people attending: ____________________________________________________ Number attending:______ ASI member _____ Non-member_____ Amount enclosed:_______________________ Questions: Louise Martin (lmart@teleport.com or 503-235-8734 or fax@503-239-4353) OR: Program Chair Kari Bero (bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu or 206-937-3673) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:10:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: New Cindex Software Some further "semi-official" information per the comments below. Yes, the purchase price of student and demo versions of Cindex will be applicable towards any full license purchase of any Cindex version. The next issue of Keywords will also have a preview of Cindex for Windows so I am told. Dave Ream Publisher/Government Account Rep for Cindex Leverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 440-838-1203 http://www.LevTechInc.com > Hi All, > Just happened to see that they have new information on Cindex for Windows > (updated 9/23/97). Release in Nov. at $525. > For us new indexers, with student versions of Cindex the issue now is....... > Cindex for Windows or....... SkyIndex Pro issued in October at $495 less 20% > for ASI members. Hmmmmmmm. Comments anyone? > I am assuming the purchase price of Cindex student version is applied to the > Windows version. > Web site for Cindex info is www.indexres.com/cindex > Thanks, > Pam ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:19:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Keywords: Where is it? I have heard that some people are finally receiving the latest Keywords, but I haven't seen mine yet. Is it just me? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:58:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: New Software The website is yet to provide any information on Cindex for Windows. My browser only found the site when I entered http://www.indexres.com/ At 11:16 AM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi All, >Just happened to see that they have new information on Cindex for Windows >(updated 9/23/97). Release in Nov. at $525. >For us new indexers, with student versions of Cindex the issue now is....... >Cindex for Windows or....... SkyIndex Pro issued in October at $495 less 20% >for ASI members. Hmmmmmmm. Comments anyone? >I am assuming the purchase price of Cindex student version is applied to the >Windows version. >Web site for Cindex info is www.indexres.com/cindex >Thanks, >Pam > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:02:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: indexing authors At 09:23 PM 9/24/97 LCL, Victoria Baker wrote: >Right. I recently had to write separate author and subject indexes for a >large psych text. The author index had 1400 names, most of which had >multiple entries and multiple entry locations (Smith, Jones, Miller, et. >al.; Jones and Miller; Miller, Smith, and Smith; etc.). I had to look up >every last one of those names, and for most of them, every time they >occurred (because of surname repetition), in the huge bibliography, which >gave only initials per APA style. There is no way I would have looked for >first names. If the author doesn't include them in the bibliography, APA >style or no, the author obviously doesn't care if they are in the index or >not. And for me to have looked for those names would have taken weeks! >The schedule would have prevented it even if I were willing to do that kind >of clerical task, which I am not (not without being recompensed for every >hour I spend doing it). This exactly describes my last psych textbook indexing job, though I think there may have been even MORE than 1400 entries! And it seemed that every last one of them was Smith or Jones or some other name that appeared 20 times in the bibliography. What made it even worse was that I was indexing from first-pass pages and there were many typos, uncorrected editing errors, and so forth. My list of notes and errata ran several pages just for the names index; the book packager for whom I did the job was enormously relieved to see that I had caught so many potentially disastrous problems. >Whew. I definitely asked for, and got, $.25 more per page than my normal >(single index) rate with my client (whom I love, btw). I've done author >indexes before but never one on this magnitude. I did find a number of >omissions in the biblio, name spelling inconsistencies, etc., so I >certainly functioned as a serious proofreader in addition to writing the >index. I asked for 50 cents per page more than my usual rate and wish I had doubled that. You're durn toot'n that you did more than just index; you probably not only proofread, but did a little miscellaneous editorial work along the way! Toward the end, I prevailed upon my long-suffering husband to sit with me and read off first initials from the bibliography as I typed entries, and this made the latter part of the job go much faster. I could also have farmed this out to somebody by marking names in the text pages and giving him or her the bibliography to work from and add initials...while I did the subject index. The next time this comes up, I'll be better prepared. I'll expect to pay somebody for this sort of clerical work...and I'll charge at least $1 a page more to do it. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:08:06 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rossa Subject: Re: Keywords: Where is it? Dick, I finally received Keywords two days ago with inside pages = missing (13-20 and 37-44.) I can't believe that! The pages were = clearly not bound in at all. I wonder how many went out like that? Mike ************************************* Michael C. Rossa =8B=8B=8B Allied Editorial indexing, proofreading, & typesetting ************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:11:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Re: personal names As an aside to the hyphenated married names issue, Nancy Mulvany uses a word in her book which I cannot find in any dictionary in my house or my favorite bookstore. The word is "eclitic," and it appears as follows on page 166: "Section 22.15B2 of AACR2 advises, 'Include the enclitic ne attached to the names of some Hungarian married women.' I have a hunch this word might have an interesting history. Does anyone know the word and have insights into its etymology? (This is an embarrassingly public place for illness and expressions of sympathy; but in my two months on Index-L, I have grown very attached to Lynn's eloquent, human, and humane messages. Her observations have great character. I hope she will recover quickly and return to sharing her problem indexes with us again very soon.) Emily Adelsohn Pasadena, CA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:21:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: New Software There is much information about the features, cost, etc. of the new CINDEX, plus screens representing the new program. The URL seems to be http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html. Hope this helps. At 10:58 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Pam Rider wrote: >The website is yet to provide any information on Cindex for Windows. > >My browser only found the site when I entered > >http://www.indexres.com/ > >At 11:16 AM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Hi All, >>Just happened to see that they have new information on Cindex for Windows >>(updated 9/23/97). Release in Nov. at $525. >>For us new indexers, with student versions of Cindex the issue now is....... >>Cindex for Windows or....... SkyIndex Pro issued in October at $495 less 20% >>for ASI members. Hmmmmmmm. Comments anyone? >>I am assuming the purchase price of Cindex student version is applied to the >>Windows version. >>Web site for Cindex info is www.indexres.com/cindex >>Thanks, >>Pam >> >> >Pam Rider > >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > >prider@powergrid.electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:37:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: New Cindex Software Dave, Can we also assume that all us long-term DOS Cindex users will get a discount for upgrading, as has been the practice for previous DOS upgrades? Thanks, Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service In a message dated 97-09-25 13:11:03 EDT, you write: << Yes, the purchase price of student and demo versions of Cindex will be applicable towards any full license purchase of any Cindex version >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:45:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: New Software At 02:21 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >There is much information about the features, cost, etc. of the new CINDEX, >plus screens representing the new program. > >The URL seems to be http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html. I get a "Not Found" on that URL. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: New Software I tried it again and the URL works for me. I have no clue why it doesn't work for you. At 02:45 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >At 02:21 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>There is much information about the features, cost, etc. of the new CINDEX, >>plus screens representing the new program. >> >>The URL seems to be http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html. > >I get a "Not Found" on that URL. > >Dick > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:56:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Educating authors on indexing Another place ASI might look at to educate authors is continuing education classes at the local university. A few years ago, I saw a class listing at UCLA about how to get started in writing/publishing your book. It covered finding agents, publishers, contracts etc. Good place for ASI to be mentioned. Maybe some pamphlets to various schools could be used. Roberta Horowitz At 09:00 AM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Yesterday I saw in a bookstore a new book on how to get published. I'd seen >it announced in _Publishers Weekly_ and was interested in whether it >mentioned indexes. The book is _The Shortest Distance Between You and a >Published Book_ by Susan Page. I was pleased with what it said. "Index" is >in the index. and the two or three paragraphs essentially tell authors that >publishers of nonfiction books prefer to hire professional indexers and that >we're worth it (a rate of $2.50 to $3.00/page is quoted). The author >explains how the author is expected to pay for the index out of royalties and >says this is nonnegotiable. > >A small step, but progress, I think. >Mary >-- >* Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com >* Lawrence, Kansas, USA * mmortensen@compuserve.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:13:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: Lynn Really sorry to hear it. Lynn, if you get messages from Index-L, mine is please, please don't work on indexing in the hospital again. Just work on= getting well! It would be really painful to lose your wonderful fun and wise postings. Best of everything to you! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:38:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Lynn Nancy Humphries wrote: >Really sorry to hear it. Lynn, if you get messages from Index-L, mine is >please, please don't work on indexing in the hospital again. Just work on= > >getting well! It would be really painful to lose your wonderful fun and >wise postings. Best of everything to you! My thoughts exactly. Just my luck I should pick _now_ to get caught up again on my e-mail (over 3000 back messages most of which I've just pitched) and rejoin the Index-L discussions, then I read about Lynn. Bummer! Lynn get the heck well again! You're in my thoughts and prayers. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Indexicon [sort of] Referring to AI and indexing, there was a long and fascinating article on language analysis in the Hewlett-Packard Journal a year or so ago. The complexities and downright weirdness of the English language were amazing to behold -- at least for a layman. [Sorry, but I can't find the specific issue!] I agree with Deborah's posting that, when even skilled human indexers sometimes have problems with certain projects, machines will still remain far behind the pack for sometime to come. Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:19:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eileen Lutzow Subject: Re: personal names Emily, I've never used the word myself, but it is in my American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, New College Edition (1976), an oldie that I've had since my college days. en-clit-ic adj. Having no independent accent in a sentence and forming an accentual and sometimes also graphemic unit with the preceding word...for example, 'em in informal English: Give 'em the works; or -que in Latin: Senatus populusque Romanus...[Late Latin encliticus, from Greek enklitikos, "leaning (on the preceding word for accent)," from enklinein, to lead on : en-, in + klinein, to lean. (Sorry, I can't get the italics in there where they belong!) AACR2 Section 22.15B2 gives these two examples of Hungarian names: Magyary, Zoltanne (with acute accents on both the a and the e in Zoltanne) Beniczkyne Bajza, Lenke (with and acute accent on the final e in Benickzkyne) AACR2 does not include enclitic in its glossary. AACR2 Section 22.5C3 on hyphenated surnames also says "If the elements of a compound surname are regularly or occasionally hyphenated, enter under the first element." Examples given include: Day-Lewis, C. ; Chaput-Rolland, Solange. BUT AACR2 Section 22.5C5 says "Other compound surnames. Married women whose surname consists of surname before marriage and husband's surname. Enter under the first element...if the person's language is Czech, French, Hungarian, Italian, or Spanish. In all other cases, enter under the husband's surname. For hyphenated names, see 22.5C3." Examples given include: Stowe, Harriet Beecher ; Bonacci Brunamonti, Alinda. BUT No one ever said indexers were required to follow AACR2, just us poor rule-bound library catalogers! Eileen Lutzow Charleston, SC a cataloger still studying to be an indexer! -------Reply separator----------------------------------------------------- As an aside to the hyphenated married names issue, Nancy Mulvany uses a word in her book which I cannot find in any dictionary in my house or my favorite bookstore. The word is "eclitic," and it appears as follows on page 166: "Section 22.15B2 of AACR2 advises, 'Include the enclitic ne attached to the names of some Hungarian married women.' I have a hunch this word might have an interesting history. Does anyone know the word and have insights into its etymology? (This is an embarrassingly public place for illness and expressions of sympathy; but in my two months on Index-L, I have grown very attached to Lynn's eloquent, human, and humane messages. Her observations have great character. I hope she will recover quickly and return to sharing her problem indexes with us again very soon.) Emily Adelsohn Pasadena, CA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:19:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: personal names At 02:11 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Emily Adelsohn wrote: >As an aside to the hyphenated married names issue, Nancy Mulvany uses a word >in her book which I cannot find in any dictionary in my house or my favorite >bookstore. The word is "eclitic," and it appears as follows on page 166: >"Section 22.15B2 of AACR2 advises, 'Include the enclitic ne attached to the >names of some Hungarian married women.' I have a hunch this word might have >an interesting history. Does anyone know the word and have insights into its >etymology? The word "enclitic" means "leaning or dependent in terms of accent; treated in pronunciation as forming a part of the preceding word (as English _thee_ in _prithee_ and _not_ in _cannot)." That would explain why Nancy says to include it with the name. Derivation: from Greek _enklitikos_; _enklinein_, to cause to incline. This is from Webster's Third New International Dictionary. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Tips on indexing Grade 9-10 textbook? Dear colleagues: I'm about to start indexing a textbook on reading and writing aimed at Grade 9 and Grade 10 students. I've indexed books for young people before, but usually I just take my cues from the book itself, using its vocabulary, and throwing in some more "adult"-oriented cross-references in case--as I think is common in libraries when students are getting help in doing research for a project--an adult (e.g., a librarian or parent) actually consults the index. Seems to me, though, that a *textbook* index is less likely to have this sort of dual audience. Any advice on overall approaches, things to avoid, etc., when indexing for young people (around age 14 or 15)? Oh yeah: I've been given 3 book pages for the index, though there are 250 indexable pages. Thanks in advance for any light you can shed. --Rica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net * Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer * Seminar Leader: _Networking With Integrity_ and _Romance Meets Reality: Becoming Your Own Boss_ Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "My own boss: when I talk, *I* listen!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:00:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Stewart Subject: Re: personal names Emily, From having encountered the term from studying Greek grammar, along with the definition and etymology given in "Webster's 2nd New College Dictionary", "enclitic" serves kind of a phonetic accentuation function in the flow of a sentence. In Greek, there are some 2- and 3-lettered conjunctions, articles, and prepositions that have no accent per se as isolated words; when used in a sentence, the word can acquire an accent (called an "enclitic") if the accent on the word that follows it needs to be maintained at a certain location. From looking at the etymology of the word "enclitic", it looks like the word "incline" is also derived from the same combination of Greek root words. That fits the kind of sliding relationship that seems to happen between the words when this occurs. Hope this isn't all Greek to you. Lynn Stewart Washington Dept. of Revenue LynnS@dor.wa.gov >---------- >From: Emily Adelsohn[SMTP:Emadelsohn@AOL.COM] >Sent: Thursday, September 25, 1997 11:11 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: personal names > >As an aside to the hyphenated married names issue, Nancy Mulvany uses a word >in her book which I cannot find in any dictionary in my house or my favorite >bookstore. The word is "eclitic," and it appears as follows on page 166: >"Section 22.15B2 of AACR2 advises, 'Include the enclitic ne attached to the >names of some Hungarian married women.' I have a hunch this word might have >an interesting history. Does anyone know the word and have insights into its >etymology? > >(This is an embarrassingly public place for illness and expressions of >sympathy; but in my two months on Index-L, I have grown very attached to >Lynn's eloquent, human, and humane messages. Her observations have great >character. I hope she will recover quickly and return to sharing her problem >indexes with us again very soon.) > >Emily Adelsohn >Pasadena, CA > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:46:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Tips on indexing Grade 9-10 textbook? In a message dated 97-09-25 16:50:16 EDT, you write: > Oh yeah: I've been given 3 book pages for the index, though there are 250 > indexable pages. Let's see, if you give 'em the index in 2 point font, that'll just about do it! ;-) Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY chapter of ASI Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:49:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: locators after main heads with subs (from "definitions in collision") At 03:39 AM 9/25/97 -0400, Ann Norcross wrote: >. . . >In a recent computer book, I used the "about" entry in this way: >several section/chapters of the book had 1) a 1- or 2-page overview of >the topic of the chapter, followed by 2) detailed steps on how to use >the concept do the tasks, etc, and then 3) a 1-page summary of the >steps just performed. I put both the the introductory pages and the >summary-of-steps pages on the "about" locator for the main topic. I >ended up with things like: > >panes, custom > about 300-302, 351 > commands, adding 319-329 > creating with xxx 303-307 > creating with yyy 311-318 > editing attributes 330-350 > scrollers, adding 308-312 > >It could just as easily have been: > >panes, custom 300-302, 351 > commands, adding > etc, etc > >Thoughts? Ann, in indexing similar passages I've included the task summary references with all the task references instead of with the basic "about references" in order to restrict the latter to general descriptions or loose definitions _only_. This is the only way to add basic about references onto main headings with subheadings without forcing the reader to "second-guess the indexer as to what those locators indicate" (Lynn's primary concern about the practice). Thus I prefer the following: panes, custom, 300-302 (or, possibly, "custom panes") adding commands to, 319-329, 351 adding scrollers to, 308-312, 351 creating with xxx, 303-307, 351 creating with yyy, 311-318, 351 editing attributes, 330-350, 351 I admit that this amounts to a lot of marginal references to page 351 in that the information they point to adds little to the information that the locators preceding them point to. Still, since what's on page 351 is not a general description of custom panes, I would not add this locator to the main heading. Maybe adding a new subheading like "summary of related tasks" or "related task summary", having the sole reference to page 351, would improve things: panes, custom, 300-302 adding commands to, 319-329 adding scrollers to, 308-312 creating with xxx, 303-307 creating with yyy, 311-318 editing attributes, 330-350 summary of related tasks, 351 BTW, when most of the subs under a main heading begin with gerunds I try to maintain that format -- not slavishly but as much as possible. I find this particularly easy to do with "adding" subs (especially when they are the only subs referring to what's added) because "adding" is a strong key word in subheadings. Further thoughts? Michael ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:08:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: New Cindex Software The Windows version is considered a "new" product line rather than an upgrade but yes there will be a discount. There will be a mailing sometime in the future to all currently licensed users explaining all. > Dave, > > Can we also assume that all us long-term DOS Cindex users will get a discount > for upgrading, as has been the practice for previous DOS upgrades? > > Thanks, > Carolyn Weaver > Weaver Indexing Service > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: New Software At 02:57 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >I tried it again and the URL works for me. I have no clue why it doesn't >work for you. > >At 02:45 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >>At 02:21 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>There is much information about the features, cost, etc. of the new CINDEX, >>>plus screens representing the new program. >>> >>>The URL seems to be http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html. >> >>I get a "Not Found" on that URL. Very interesting. I'm using Netscape and when I click on your link I get a "Not Found." Anyone else? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:52:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Keywords: Where is it? I received mine today. On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:19:38 -0400 Richard Evans writes: >I have heard that some people are finally receiving the latest >Keywords, >but I haven't seen mine yet. Is it just me? > >Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:32:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Re: New Software I tried and got the same "not found" as Dick. << I tried it again and the URL works for me. I have no clue why it doesn't work for you. At 02:45 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >At 02:21 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>There is much information about the features, cost, etc. of the new CINDEX, >>plus screens representing the new program. >> >>The URL seems to be http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html. > >I get a "Not Found" on that URL. > >Dick > >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:06:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: New Software http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html (The above is the URL to try.) I am not kidding--this DOES work. I just brought it up again. Sometimes when there is lots of traffic there will be a message about the server being down or some such thing. Are you sure that you are not leaving off the .html or including the period at the end in the line below? (Just asking and not insinuating anything here. Otherwise, I just cannot understand why you shouldn't be accessing the file.) I DID get a NOT FOUND message when I used the original URL, which did not have the .html added to it. Hope this helps. At 05:23 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >At 02:57 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>I tried it again and the URL works for me. I have no clue why it doesn't >>work for you. >> >>At 02:45 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >>>At 02:21 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>>There is much information about the features, cost, etc. of the new CINDEX, >>>>plus screens representing the new program. >>>> >>>>The URL seems to be http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html. >>> >>>I get a "Not Found" on that URL. > >Very interesting. I'm using Netscape and when I click on your link I get a >"Not Found." Anyone else? > >Dick > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:20:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: New Software You can always get to any information about the various versions of Cindex and other Indexing Research information by starting at the "top" of the web site: http://www.indexres.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Indexing courses in the UK David Green wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Katherine McCann Subject: Thesaurus Building Courses? Does anyone know of a brief (1-2 day) thesaurus-building course offered in the Washington DC area? Alternatively, does anyone have any practical, nuts & bolts advice about how to begin thesaurus-creation process? We currently have an alphabetical list of approximately 3500 subject headings with some "see" references. Our plan is to use Lexico/2 software to create an online, web-accessible thesaurus. Should we begin by putting each word on an index card, establishing some broad subject area groupings (ie: architecture, art, history, political science), and placing each word within an appropriate group? Or is this an antiquated way of approaching a thesaurus? Any advice or words of wisdom would be much appreciated! Thank you! --Kaydee *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Katherine D. McCann HLAS Hispanic Division/LOC 101 Independence Ave, SE Washington, DC 20540-4851 kmcc@loc.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:48:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Nelsen Subject: Re[2]: New Software Dick, Try copying and pasting the URL instead of clicking on the link. I'm using Netscape and that worked for me. Christine Nelsen Macmillan Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: New Software Author: Richard Evans at internet Date: 9/25/97 5:23 PM At 02:57 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >I tried it again and the URL works for me. I have no clue why it doesn't >work for you. > >At 02:45 PM 9/25/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >>At 02:21 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>There is much information about the features, cost, etc. of the new CINDEX, >>>plus screens representing the new program. >>> >>>The URL seems to be http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html. >> >>I get a "Not Found" on that URL. Very interesting. I'm using Netscape and when I click on your link I get a "Not Found." Anyone else? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:22:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: URLs that don't work In a message dated 97-09-25 20:09:14 EDT, you write: My standard trick when a URL doesn't work is to back up to the next level (e.g., the previous /) and try it from there. There's usually a link from that screen to whatever I'm looking for. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service << http://www.indexres.com/cindex.html (The above is the URL to try.) I am not kidding--this DOES work. I just brought it up again. Sometimes when there is lots of traffic there will be a message about the server being down or some such thing. Are you sure that you are not leaving off the .html or including the period at the end in the line below? (Just asking and not insinuating anything here. Otherwise, I just cannot understand why you shouldn't be accessing the file.) I DID get a NOT FOUND message when I used the original URL, which did not have the .html added to it.>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:32:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Hyperindex Versus Cindex I would like to address this query toward those who are familiar with both Hyperindex and Cindex for Macintosh. Not too long ago I received the sample software and user guide for Cindex for Macintosh and it all looks very impressive but I've been using Hyperindex for sometime and I wonder at the value of switching from one system to another. What would be the rationale for doing so? By the way of background to this question, (1) I only do about a dozen indices per year. Most of them are from the same two, low paying, publishers. In brief my net income from indexing is pretty low so I'm not enthusiastic (without a good reason) about additional investment in software. (2) I use Hyperindex, in addition to the usual reasons for indexing software, for another reason. My primary publisher does not want the proof sheets marked up in any way, manner or form unless I see errata and then only for that errata. The proof sheets go back to him with the index. So I use the software as a sort of virtual yellow or red pensil. In other words, instead of marking items of possible interest, I copy everything of possible interest into the software. Do some analysis and then Hyperindex does its magic with alphabetizing etc. and passes everything into microsoft word where I actually work on turning all these half digested notes into a real index. Any comments would be welcome, Lawrence H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Canada/resume thanks Thanks to all of you who answered my questions on resumes and Canada. I'm still getting responses on the Canada "thing" and am keeping them all on file since I may be moving there within a year or two. In the meantime, I'm getting those resumes out to try to acquire a new client or two (or three). Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 05:59:57 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Farned" Subject: Re: CANCELLING SUBSCRIPTION In-Reply-To: <199707300148.SAA05106@coyote.rain.org> >set index-l nomail > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:50:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Lynn's condition Bob here. Sorry I haven't been posting for the past few days. I've been trying to do ten things at once, and I guess I got a little burnt out, both mentally and physically. Well, Lynn has been transferred to the VA hospital in Long Beach: Veterans Affairs Medical Center 5901 East 7th St. Long Beach, CA 90822 She is currently in the CCU, Dept. D2 Room 10. They want to do a cardiac catheterization, but she is running a fever of 103-104, so they want to get that taken care of first. They suspect pneumonia, but they won't be able to tell for sure until they can collect a (yecch!) sample from her lungs. She is on respiratory therapy to help that along. BTW, I am printing her e-mail (the encouraging posts and messages that you all are so kind to send!) so she can feel better in heart, mind, and spirit. She enjoys reading them so much! Thank you all! With faith and prayer, we'll make it through this! My regards to one and all. Bob Morgan (Lynn's husband) *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:32:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rose Iris Subject: Indexing and Menopause OK, after reading in the Key Words survey that most indexers are women between the ages of 40 and 60, I'm going to risk asking a question: did any of you experience any difficulties indexing while going through the "change"? The reason I ask is because some of the symptoms listed for this transition period include memory and intellectual difficulties. I'd appreciate any answers, either public or private. "Rose Iris" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:29:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat For those that have not downloaded the ICQ program in order to participate in the ICQ Book Indexers Chat it is located at: http://members.aol.com/bookindexr I would like to get some feed back from those that are interested in joining the chat and have not downloaded the program. 1. Are to times inconvenient for you, if so which times would be better 2. You can download the ICQ because you have a Mac. ICQ are in the process of making ICQ available for MAC users. 3. Not sure how to download and install the program. If so E-mail me and I can walk you though it. 4. Any other reason. Thanks Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:08:51 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Hyperindex Versus Cindex Lawrence H. Feldman writes: > I would like to address this query toward those who are familiar with >both Hyperindex and Cindex for Macintosh. > > Not too long ago I received the sample software and user guide for >Cindex for Macintosh and it all looks very impressive but I've been using >Hyperindex for sometime and I wonder at the value of switching from one >system to another. What would be the rationale for doing so? > > By the way of background to this question, (1) I only do about a dozen >indices per year. Most of them are from the same two, low paying, >publishers. In brief my net income from indexing is pretty low so I'm not >enthusiastic (without a good reason) about additional investment in software. > (2) I use Hyperindex, in addition to the usual reasons for indexing >software, for another reason. > > My primary publisher does not want the proof sheets marked up in any >way, manner or form unless I see errata and then only for that errata. The >proof sheets go back to him with the index. So I use the software as a sort >of virtual yellow or red pensil. In other words, instead of marking items of >possible interest, I copy everything of possible interest into the software. >Do some analysis and then Hyperindex does its magic with alphabetizing etc. >and passes everything into microsoft word where I actually work on turning >all these half digested notes into a real index. > > Any comments would be welcome, I am in much the same position as you. I have acquired the demo disk and manual for Cindex but have not yet acquired the full version. I too do about a dozen indexes a year and have been using HyperIndex for that work. The version I now use is HyperIndex 6.0, but I believe that HyperIndex 6.1 will shortly be available and will offer some quite considerable improvements. I will buy Cindex if I get indexing work for which HyperIndex is unsatisfactory, but that hasn't happened yet. There's no doubt that Cindex is a more powerful and versatile programme, but if HyperIndex serves your purpose adequately I see no point in going to the extra expense of getting Cindex. One feature that Cindex has and that HyperIndex lacks, for example, is the ability to ignore personal titles in sorting. Thus in Cindex it is easy to produce a sequence such as the following: Murphy, Reverend Mother Anne Murphy, Reverend Father Brendan Murphy, Sister Cecilia Murphy, Major Daniel Murphy, Sir Edward Murphy, Fintan Patrick Murphy, Brother George, etc. but in HyperIndex you will only get the right sequence if you place the titles after the Christian names, e.g. Murphy, Anne (Reverend Mother), and your client may not want that. Another advantage of Cindex is that you can see the index in its formatted state as you work on it. In HyperIndex all formatting is best deferred until after you have completed the inputting of entries. Editing the HyperIndex database is perfectly feasible, however, even though it's not WYSIWYG. The disadvantage of Cindex is its price. It is something like five times dearer than HyperIndex (but HyperIndex is not a stand-alone system: you also need to have, or acquire, HyperCard). I must say I am puzzled by the remarks in your penultimate paragraph. I try to do as much as possible in HyperIndex before exporting the file to Microsoft Word. In this way I can get the benefit of all the various quality control checks that HyperIndex offers. I haven't yet achieved the ideal of exporting an index that requires absolutely no finishing touches in Word, but I believe it is possible to do so. From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:02:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Spencer Subject: Re: Keywords Greetings! Could someone tell me who I need to e-mail to receive my "Keywords"? Still have not received it. Thanks, Dawn indexlady@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:41:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Keywords Re: << Could someone tell me who I need to e-mail to receive my "Keywords"? Still have not received it. >> Since KeyWords goes out as bulk mail, I think your issue right now is with the postal service. There are quite a few people I know of who haven't received their copies yet. The mails must carry the publication to your local post office, and then the mail carrier has some discretion about how long he/she can hold it before delivery. Different classes of mail service carry different guidelines. Perhaps you didn't know that bulk mail could be held at the post office for a certain number of days, by law, and doesn't have to be deivered the day it is received. So I would ask that you wait a little while longer before you request another copy. And complain to your post office that your bulk mail is taking too long to be delivered. If it has not arrived in another week or so, then let the ASI office know of the non-delivery (asi@well.com). The administrator will route that information to the proper party. Janet Perlman Secretary to the Board, American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:08:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Best wishes for Lynn! Dear Lynn--Just wanted you to know there's an indexer out here in Oregon thinking about you and sending healing thoughts your way. I want to give you a little piece of a poem that a friend gave me when I was recovering from surgery a couple of years ago. But, true to form, I can't find the card she sent, so I'm quoting from memory. It's by Becky Birtha. When you can't do anything else Do what you can do. Sleep, Breathe, Dream, Heal. You mean a lot to a lot of us out here. Get well soon. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:08:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Sims Subject: Re: Indexing Income uses In a message dated 97-09-15 13:54:00 EDT, you write: > Benefits? Lunch and sunbathing on our 50' deck with a view of the water and > pine trees, jaunts in my canoe whenever I want, listening to the loons in > the > evening, *fresh* fish for dinner that my husband-the-Guide catches, hiking > when I'm inclined to, NO traffic jams or commutes, NO boss telling me what > he > wants me to do, NOT getting up at 5:00 to drive 30 miles, need I go on? > > You have to make choices. We decided that making the almighty buck wasn't as > important to us as living where we wanted to be. We stepped out in faith and > we've never looked back! > Dear Peg, I know you wrote this a couple of weeks ago, (behind as usual on my email ----- Index-Lers are a prolific bunch!) but I just had to say that you're speaking my language! That's the kind of "company benefits" that my husband and I are looking for. I printed a copy of your message of encouragement to remind me what I'm invariably working toward, as I study my USDA indexing course. I did my first index and didn't do too well -- never felt good about it. Needless to say, I'm feeling a little discouraged. Studying the material and then actually "doing" the index seemed kinda like studying all about water skiing and then actually "trying" it! I'm anxious to get the feel of it. I know some in this group have said it gets easier with more practice and that's what I'm banking on. I guess I need to keep listening for that gurgling mountain stream, the wind in the pine trees, my log home with my cozy office............(sigh) Hopeful future indexer looking for some encouragement, Sharon Sims ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:57:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: frank exner Subject: Re: Lynn's condition In-Reply-To: <199709270129.VAA23014@thumper.acc.nccu.edu> Lynn, Take care of yourself; my prayers and those of my wife, Carol, are with you. Like many others I have lurked at the INDEX-L threshold for awhile, and your messages, advice, and general cheer have been very important. The indexing profession is better for your presence and all of us want nothing more than your well-being. The lurker writes, and, having written, lurks on. Frank Exner, Little Bear Little Bear Indexing Services fexner@nccu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:47:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottesen Subject: Thanks and Reply: Online Help (Long) -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hi again! Thanks to everyone who responded to my online help post; what a great resource you all are! Peg: I received the SIG newsletter; thanks. Some thoughts: Several of you suggested indexing using both of my examples, i.e. using nouns and gerunds as main headings to cover all bases. Unfortunately, there is a space limitation in Winhelp. Each index entry field is 255 spaces. This , I believe, is a WinHelp (Microsoft) restriction, not a Robohelp restriction. I know 255 sounds like a lot, but the index entries take up a lot more space than the entries themselves. For example, for the topic "Creating a Spectral Plot" the index entries you want to end up with might be: frequency plots creating plots, frequency creating spectral plots creating What you have to enter is: frequency plots ,;frequency plots , creating;plots, frequency ,;plots, frequency , creating;spectral plots ,;spectral plots , creating; That's 126 spaces (the odd spaces are intentional and necessary) and I haven't even gotten to gerunds and their synonyms yet! I could save space by leaving each entry on one line, but then for a word that is referenced many times I'd end up with a long list of the word repeated over and over followed by the subentries. Arghh. If anyone knows a work-around to this restriction I would sure like to know it. (Or am I all wet here?) Several of you also expressed frustration with the online help you have used . I can certainly empathize. But please remember, the art of online help hasn't been around nearly as long as the art of indexing. We're trying (and learning all the time); we really are! Thanks again, Susan Schionning Symvionics, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:08:26 +0000 Reply-To: jill@bznet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Lasker Subject: Re: Lynn's condition Although I only know Lynn from her posts here, I just wanted to let you know to add my prayers. Surely anyone cared about this much has lots of powerful thoughts pouring strength into her. Bob, thanks for the updates, and don't forget to take care of yourself too. Jill (going back into lurking mode) -- Jill Lasker jill@bznet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:20:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Blackburn Subject: Indexes for texts for teenagers Rica, = Here are some comments for the list on your question about a text= for Grade 9 and 10 students: The report at the Dublin conference was chiefly concerned with children aged 7 to 11, but many recommendations would apply to older kids= , including keeping the abilities of the young person in mind. Of course yo= u need more space for the index, so it won't be squeezed into three pages o= f tiny type. Paragraph indexes are confusing: you need main entries with so= me indented subentries (preferring main entries to a lot of subentries). The general rule of indexing that a reference should take the reader to a page that gives him useful information about the subject or name indexed applies particularly to indexes for children and teenagers. Don't waste their time with passing references. Avoid too many page references after an entry. Prefer multiple entries to cross-references, as long as the multiple entries are not confusing (of course, include all references aft= er each of the entries). When a young person looks something up he expects t= o find right away a reference to a page that will give him info., not to be= redirected somewhere else around the index. At Dublin it was mentioned that kids like a header before each alphabetical block -- perhaps this is less important for teenagers, but m= ay make the index easier to use. A large part of the index may be keywords, often indicated in bol= d in the text and listed at the end of each chapter. This makes your job easier. You could also use bf for the most important references. Hope to see you again soon, Rica. Chris Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:22:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Blackburn Subject: Texts for Grade 9 & 10 students Rica, Here are some points: Plenty of space for index needed, so type can be large enough and= you can avoid paragraph entries. Each reference should indicate useful info. -- no passing refs. Not more than a few references after each entry or sub-entry. Prefer multiple entries to cross-references. Main entries rather than a lot of sub-entries. If keywords are indicated in the text, use them in the index. = Hope to see you again soon, Rica. --Chris Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:18:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: Indexing Want To Be Until a few short months ago I was unaware that Indexing was actually a cottage industry. Since learning about it I've been studying on my own from various books including "The Art Of Indexing" by Larry Bonura, and "Indexing Books" by Nancy C. Mulvany. I also mailed my application for membership to ASI last week. I have been diligently reading and absorbing your questions and suggestions to each other regarding various indexing problems, thus, LEARNING even more. I have also taken the time to try indexing a couple of periodicals and books I had at home. I then compared them to the real indexes in the books, and must say I felt somewhat happy about my work ( which is not to say that there isn't room for improvement, but that will come with experience). Please advise me on what steps need to be taken for me to actually enter the working world of indexing. I've noticed some people mentioning the USDA course. Is that course a must, and if so how can I get more details about it. Thank you all in advance for any and all guidance in this matter. I am more than anxious to start indexing. Steven Sawula email ssawula@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:03:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Indexing Want To Be Steven, You're definitely taking the right steps by reading those books and practicing. The USDA coorespondence course on Basic Indexing is not mandatory, but I have taken it and I *highly* recommend it. At $286 for an 11-lesson course that you have 1 year to complete (all course material is included), it's a great deal, and an excellent way to get feedback from experienced indexers. I'd suggest that you read the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) part of the ASI home page ( Indexing FAQ s ), which will answer *many* of your questions. Once you finish the USDA course, and practice on several more indexes, I suspect that you'll be ready to hang out your shingle, as I was. I'd also encourage you to attend ASI chapter meetings in your area and plan to attend the ASI conference in Seattle in May, 98 if at all possible. These meetings, seminars and conferences are *the best* way to learn and network, network, network! I wish you the best. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY chapter of ASI Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG