From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:53:49.52 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705D" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:42 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:04:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Wilson Subject: Re: where's the mail? Well, I'm "glad" to see other folks struggling with generating business, too. I'm also a new indexer and, while I haven't really started the marketing blitz in earnest and I haven't quit my day job, deciding how to attack this thing and generate business is a real quandary. I'm looking for help, ideas, suggestions, whatever I can get from those of you out there who've already been there and done that. (It sounds as if sending out a "bulk" mailing (like in a job search) is a low percentage bet (??).) Thanks, folks!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:47:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Timekeep Program Those who do not cover all bases are doomed to repeat things - for those of you who have e-mailed me directly for a mailing address to try out my DOS-based Timekeeping program here it is: Charles Anderson PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Sorry to take up bandwidth here - I should have given this in my earlier posting. Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:53:19 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: paul cowan unsubscribe Here are some actual maintenance complaints submitted by US Air Force pilots and the replies from the maintenance crews. "Squawks" are problem listings that pilots generally leave for maintenance crews. Problem: "Dead bugs on windshield." Solution: "Live bugs on order." Problem: "Number three engine missing." Solution: "Engine found on right wing after brief search." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Disability insurance? (was Where's the Mail?) Does anyone know of an insurance company that provides disability insurance (for indexers' eyes--sort of like the insurance that Lloyd's of London provided for that 1940s actress's legs--what was her name)? I have often thought that if something happened to my eyes, I'd be out of business. Also-- At 02:54 PM 5/21/97 -0500, Laura Rustin wrote: >I have just assumed that at first, people were in Winston-Salem, and then >they were back home catching up. But now I realize that it is Wednesday >already, and ????? And we're STILL catching up! From the look of the mail bag this a.m., we must be back in business on INDEX-L, however. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:10:56 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Vocabulary control & xrefs In-Reply-To: <199705221128.FAA26140@Rt66.com> Welcome back from W-S, everyone! Wish I'd been there...instead I've been tearing my hair out over the index for a poorly edited book. (This isn't just me grumbling about the state of publishing, which I certainly do regularly! The ME says they know the copyeditor isn't working out...) So here's *one* of the problems with this book: I'm faced with a number of concepts for which there are at least two, and often three or more, terms used throughout the book. Here's an example: Add Log phase, 429, 431 Logging phase, 395 Update Logs phase, 276 These all refer to the same thing, but on none of these pages are either of the other two terms mentioned. According to Nancy Mulvany's book, which is the only reference I have in my hand at the moment, See refs are used in situations like this to minimize scattering of information throughout the index. but if I do this: Add Log phase, 276, 395, 429, 431 Logging phase. See Add Log phase Update Logs phase. See Add Log phase then the reader looking for "Add Log phase" on page 276 won't find it. On the other hand, if I do this: Add Log phase, 429, 431 See also Logging phase; Update Logs phase Logging phase, 395 See also Add Log phase; Update Logs phase Update Logs phase, 276 See also Add Log phase; Logging phase then I've got that information spread out all over the place. So I'm taking a vote! Is it more important to give the reader explicit information about what they'll find on a particular page? Or is the reader better served by finding both explicit and (essentially) implicit information in the same place in the index? Eagerly awaiting the collective wisdom of INDEX-L! ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:36:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: Vocabulary control & xrefs Caroline, When I get a situation like this, sometimes I can get around it by putting the synonyms in parens after the main entry, so that >Add Log phase, 429, 431 >Logging phase, 395 >Update Logs phase, 276 becomes Add Log phase (Logging Phase, Update Logs phase) 276,395, 429, 431 Logging phase. See Add Log phase Update Logs phase. See Add Log phase Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:33:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Vocabulary control & xrefs At 07:10 AM 5/22/97 -0600, Caroline asked about: ms >used throughout the book. Here's an example: > >Add Log phase, 429, 431 >Logging phase, 395 >Update Logs phase, 276 > Which logically--although I missed mention of the book's subject--I would enter as: Log phase adding, 429, 431 logging, 395 updating, 276 Adding phases. See also (etc.) Logging phases. See also (etc.) Updating. See also (etc.) Context could certainly mandate your choices. It's just I have learned to search and create indexes with an emphasis on nouns. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Vocabulary control & xrefs -Reply I work for a legal publishing company and we run into this all the time-- legislators come up with remarkably diverse ways of saying the same thing! Our policy is to index under one main heading and put in "See lines" from the other, collateral headings. That way the user can feel certain that the information under any given heading is reasonably complete. As a former researcher, I can say that I found "See also" lines frustrating and annoying-- they make you unsure that you have all of the information that you need and can lead to a grand tour of the whole bloody index! If you believe that the purpose of an index is to get the user OUT of the index and into the text as soon as possible, "See also" lines defeat that purpose. Our policy here is to not use them at all. Hope this helps! >>> Caroline Parks 05/22/97 09:10am >>> Welcome back from W-S, everyone! Wish I'd been there...instead I've been tearing my hair out over the index for a poorly edited book. (This isn't just me grumbling about the state of publishing, which I certainly do regularly! The ME says they know the copyeditor isn't working out...) So here's *one* of the problems with this book: I'm faced with a number of concepts for which there are at least two, and often three or more, terms used throughout the book. Here's an example: Add Log phase, 429, 431 Logging phase, 395 Update Logs phase, 276 These all refer to the same thing, but on none of these pages are either of the other two terms mentioned. According to Nancy Mulvany's book, which is the only reference I have in my hand at the moment, See refs are used in situations like this to minimize scattering of information throughout the index. but if I do this: Add Log phase, 276, 395, 429, 431 Logging phase. See Add Log phase Update Logs phase. See Add Log phase then the reader looking for "Add Log phase" on page 276 won't find it. On the other hand, if I do this: Add Log phase, 429, 431 See also Logging phase; Update Logs phase Logging phase, 395 See also Add Log phase; Update Logs phase Update Logs phase, 276 See also Add Log phase; Logging phase then I've got that information spread out all over the place. So I'm taking a vote! Is it more important to give the reader explicit information about what they'll find on a particular page? Or is the reader better served by finding both explicit and (essentially) implicit information in the same place in the index? Eagerly awaiting the collective wisdom of INDEX-L! ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:10:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Disability insurance? (was Where's the Mail?) As soon as I can get caught up, I will be investigating disability insurance. So look for some information by fall. And once I get my information, it will need to be approved by board. That will not be until November at the earliest. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:40:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Re: en dashes; Cindex In ASCII, the code for a hyphen is 45 and for an en dash is 196. However, in Windows the code for an en dash is 150 (and 151 for an em dash), assuming you use a standard font such as Times New Roman. In Cindex, if you're going to be exporting your index as an RTF file (so you can then convert it into a Word file, for example), you can set your page number connector as ASCII 196 in the SET REF and SET FORMAT options (by pressing Alt+Shift+196), and Cindex will correctly convert it to ASCII 150 when it creates the RTF file. When you open that file in Word, the en dashes will be there. The discussion of this in Cindex is a bit dense, and the index of the Cindex manual is both inaccurate and unintuitive. It lists a reference to PAGE REF:connector [in the SET REF options], but gives the wrong page number-114, when the discussion is actually on page 115. There is no entry to the PAGE REFS:connector option in the SET FORMAT options, discussed on pp. 171-72, although there is a reference to PAGE REFS:...format settings. There is also an entry for "Connecting character, in page references," which actually gives the correct page number for the SET REF option, although the page number is listed as a miscellaneous undifferentiated number. There is subheading under this entry for "in formatted index," which gives the pages for the discussion of the SET FORMAT options. Under the heading for "Page references," which is probably where most users would first turn, the only reference to this topic is buried as a See reference after a sub-subheading (Page references/inclusive range/denoting). Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive, 9A New York, NY 10025 Voice: 212.864.2121 Fax: 212.222.2921 Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com -----Original Message----- From: Vicki Birchfield [SMTP:vbirchfield@APPLIEDVOICE.COM] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 1997 9:23 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: en dashes I'm new to indexing too, but I've been a programmer for a long time. But don't hold it against me - I don't think indexing is something machines will ever do well. Computers and software should be useful tools for human beings, not replacements for them. From what I've gathered from listening to this group, it seems that the indexing software tools you all use could stand some improvement. Anyway, I think I know the secret to the "alt 196" (usually seen in computer manuals as ) mystery. 196 is an extended ascii code for a dash graphics character. It's hard to tell from looking at the ascii chart I have, but it looks longer than the character at 45, which is another dash, the one you get from a standard qwerty keyboard. So my guess is that your software is using 'alt 45' ("-") for the en dash, 'alt 196' for the em dash. Too bad there wasn't an entry in the index. ;-) Hope this helps. Vicki Birchfield vbirch@accessone.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rashidah Z. Hakeem" Subject: Re: where's the mail? In-Reply-To: <9705211922.AA04707@bme1.utmem.edu> They are together in person at the conference in Winston-Salem, I suspect. On Wed, 21 May 1997, Sue Tortora wrote: > I'm currently receiving an unusually small amount of mail from Index-L. Are > people just not writing or is there a problem? I usually receive about 20 > items per day (except weekends) and for the past few weekdays less than 7 > have arrived. Of course the amount of junk mail has increased tremendously > :-) > > By the way, I am still waiting for my first client. I sent out at least 100 > letters with few responses and no offers. I'm trying to be patient, but it's > getting discouraging. > > > Sue Tortora > Tortora Indexing Services > ******************************************************************************** Rashidah Z. Hakeem, M L S rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org M E C C A (Memphis Educational Computer Connectivity Alliance) http://www.mecca.org/ LeMoyne-Owen College voice: (901) 942-6227 fax: (901) 942-6272 ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:44:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Vocabulary control & xrefs Caroline, I would use one as the place to put all of the information, use See x-refs to it, and put the alternative ways describing the phenomenon in parens .... just as Heather suggested. It's not elegant, but it is functional, and follows the First Rule of Indexing (such as it may be) that we not scatter information throughout the index. But ... one caveat. Just be absolutely certain that these things mean exactly the same thing, and aren't describing different aspects of something. In that case, Pam's suggestion is the better of them. The parens thing requires that there be exact parity between the different expressions/terms. Wish you could have gone to ASI Conference! It was a good one! Some good learning and fraternizing for many of us there! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:44:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: New Indexers: Finding Work Quite a few of you have written looking for ideas and encouragement while beginning to market yourselves as indexers. John wrote "It sounds as if sending out a "bulk" mailing (like in a job search) is a low percentage bet (??)." As one who has been there and done that, I can tell you that that kind of mailing is the *only* way to do it. You need to be out there meeting people, also ... networking, introducing yourself to publishers and authors (don't forget them!). You need to get your name out there, where people who are looking for indexers can find it... and you. So the idea of "bulk mailings" -- lots of letters going out to publishers with your credentials and name and phone number -- are vital. It does take time. Don't be discouraged (I know that's not easy!). People keep those letters for a long time. Often it doesn't pan out right away, but you are placing yourself for the future. People don't respond to that kind of mailing, usually. They *do*, however, hold onto the resumes. So don't despair. I can tell you that I still market myself that way, with letters to select, targeted, groups of publishers or potential clients .... even after 20 plus years in the field. I keep marketing myself. The rate of return is low. I find that I get about a 3% rate of response. I get maybe 1 or 2 new clients out of each 100 letters I send out. I still send them out. That is a pretty standard number -- it is one sales people use universally as the rate of return on a "cold" mailing or "cold" calling campaign. It's nothing new. You can only expect that much. Obviously, if you want more then 1 or 2 clients, you market with more than 100 letters. So keep the faith, those of you who are sending mail out. Keep sending it out. And follow up, too! It's true -- editors are busy people, and if you're there when they need you, if you are on the phone, or your resume arrives on their desk at the moment they need an indexer, you *may* be *it*! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: where's the mail? In-Reply-To: <199705220415.XAA22504@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I have just assumed that at first, people were in Winston-Salem, and then >they were back home catching up. But now I realize that it is Wednesday >already, and ????? > >Laura Rustin That's about how long it takes to catch up on one's sleep and work after one of those things. People should start drifting back to the list soon. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:13:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Corrington Subject: Re: master index, updating Dawn - Thanks for the information. Sorry that I'm late in getting this thank you out to you. I attended the ASI national conference last week and had to get a book out by yesterday. Now I'm going through a week's worth of e-mail. Thanks again for the information. If you ever need help with a book or project, please let me know. Paul Corrington voice: (602) 827-8904 Corrington Indexing Service fax: (602) 827-1182 2647 East Kenwood e-mail: Paul Corri@aol.com Mesa, Arizona 85213 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:19:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: En-dash preference from one publisher My preference (and this is just one person's opinion from one publisher) is to use a unique character (as somebody already mentioned) in place of an en-dash, if possible. (Something like "@" or "#" ... anything that you are confident isn't going to be somewhere else in the text.) Then that symbol can be changed globally on our end. Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:02:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: en dash (was: where's the mail?) In-Reply-To: <199705220415.XAA22504@mixcom.mixcom.com> Jean, in the Mac version of Cindex (you didn't say which platform you're working on), the default is set to produce an en dash for page ranges. If I wanted to change it, I could do so in the "page references" window in the "document" menu. Although it looks like a hyphen on the screen, it does print out as an en dash when I change the whole document to Palatino. Dave Ream added: >The en dash is used to specify number ranges and chapter=96page. The >196 is what Cindex uses by default for page number connector. It's also used for compound adjectives that contain open compounds: New York--London flight post--Civil War period [pretend those are en dashes] So you could conceivably need an en dash in the main or the subentry field, not just in page ranges. I don't remember how to do it in DOS, but it's option-hyphen on a Mac, and it seems to travel well in Microsoft Word. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:48:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Tabs, mylar tabs In-Reply-To: <199705221625.AA06303@world.std.com> I got the following question from a prospective employer via e-mail today. Does anyone know what it means? I'm a bit wary of sending out my resume to this person without knowing more although he got my name from the Freelance Editorial Association directory which publishes my name, address, and phone. Here's the question: In your indexing do you use tabs or, even mylar tabs? I guess my answer is no but I wonder what it means to use tabs or mylar tabs? I use a computer! Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: riomaro@riofrancos.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Organization: Riofrancos & Co. Indexes Subject: en-dashes; Cindex In ASCII, the code for a hyphen is 45 and for an en dash is 196. However, in Windows the code for an en dash is 150 (and 151 for an em dash), assuming you use a standard font such as Times New Roman. In Cindex, if you're going to be exporting your index as an RTF file (so you can then convert it into a Word file, for example), you can set your page number connector as ASCII 196 in the SET REF and SET FORMAT options (by pressing Alt+Shift+196), and Cindex will correctly convert it to ASCII 150 when it creates the RTF file. When you open that file in Word, the en dashes will be there. The discussion of this in Cindex is a bit dense, and the index of the Cindex manual is both inaccurate and unintuitive. It lists a reference to PAGE REF:connector [in the SET REF options], but gives the wrong page number--114, when the discussion is actually on page 115. There is no entry to the PAGE REFS:connector option in the SET FORMAT options, discussed on pp. 171-72, although there is a reference to PAGE REFS: format settings. There is also an entry for "Connecting character, in page references," which actually gives the correct page number for the SET REF option, although the page number is listed as a miscellaneous undifferentiated number. There is subheading under this entry for "in formatted index," which gives the pages for the discussion of the SET FORMAT options. Under the heading for "Page references," which is probably where most users would first turn, the only reference to this topic is buried as a See reference after a sub-subheading (Page references/inclusive range/denoting). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: New Indexers: Finding Work Dear New Indexers, Regarding Janet's comments, I would second the opinion that you need to keep doing marketing, no matter how long you have been in business. It does get easier as time goes by, because the more work you have done, the easier it is to get people to notice your letter. In marketing, as in so much else, "diligence is the mother of good luck." However, I don't believe in sending out 100 letters at a time. I suggest to my trainees sending out 5 well-researched and personally addressed letters per week. That way if anyone hires you from the first batch, you haven't used up your list of possible clients to contact after that first assignment is done. In other words, if you have a list of 100 possible clients, you have plans for 20 weeks' worth of marketing letters--which inherently means that each letter will be fresher, but also means you don't send everything out one day and spend 20 weeks being glum because you haven't heard from anyone. Put another way, plan to "be in business" for 20 weeks, even if you have no paying work. Your job for those 20 weeks is to write excellent, personal, and specifically targeted marketing letters (at the rate of one per day). I guarantee that by week 20 your letter will look quite different from what you wrote in week 1. Also, each week you then have fewer cold calls to make... and maybe one of them will lead to a project. (I personally would not be able to face 100 cold calls, but I could face one per day!) I have used this plan for marketing and I have yet to make it to the bottom of my list of "presses I would like to work with." (In fact, I have revised the list several times over the years, but I have never "used up" all of my potential clients, so I always feel that there are new horizons ahead, even on those days or weeks when the phone is quiet. This is an excellent way to trick yourself into feeling hopeful when it seems like finding work is completely hopeless.) Just my thoughts on the subject... Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:09:07 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Vocabulary control & xrefs In-Reply-To: <199705221330.GAA16645@dns1.mcn.org> Just to say that only a couple of weeks ago I posted this same problem and decided to do what Heather has suggested. Although I try to avoid parenthetical comments on my entries, this is one case where they are more than justified. I would agree, though, as to the necessity for the terms being truly used in the work you are indexing as synonyms. (Understanding that in some subjects an author may legitimately use words as synonyms, the use of which another person in the field might disagree with.) Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:19:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: getting work Jean wrote: > I also found my first >mailing to be too dry to solicit a response. The letters I did get a >response to were the one's that were more on a personal level, >explaining my insane desire to index the book that even the author >wouldn't do. I agree. When I did my first major marketing effort (1989) I used cold calls, not letters, but the same principle applied: the two clients I got first (with enough work to keep me moderately busy for a while) were the editors with whom I'd gotten into personal chats (mostly about irrelevant stuff)--a personal connection. Couldn't tell if it was coincidence, but I don't think so. Also, often when I'd call back to "check in" someone would just happen to have a job on hand and would give it to me. Remember the most important thing: you're not asking them for something, you're offering them something they need. Good luck! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:09:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Indexing Software (was: New Kid needs Info) In-Reply-To: <33837182.6C8D@worldnet.att.net> Just a reminder that the ASI Web Site includes a list of dedicated indexing software programs, and descriptions of how different kinds of software is used during the indexing process. For those of you who don't have web access, I've included the text of that page below. -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- American Society of Indexers (ASI) http://www.well.com/user/asi/ ASI Web Committee: Kari Bero (webmaster) Lori Lathrop Seth Maislin (co-webmaster) Lynn Moncrief Janet Perlman (ASI board representative) Charlotte Skuster Neva Smith Jan Wright Pilar Wyman (chair) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ________________________________________________________________ Indexing tools The software tools used to generate indexes come in many flavors and varieties. Which technique is used depends on variables such as budget, eventual re-usability of the source material, time constraints, media used to publish the material, file sizes and transferral issues, and individual preferences. There are essentially six different methodologies for indexing: Standalone or Dedicated tools, usually used for back-of-the-book indexes, allow indexers to work from page-numbered galleys. The indexing is completely separate from the published material. Dedicated indexing tools are listed below. Embedding tools allow indexing codes to be embedded in the electronic text of a book or file, and the index's locators are updated as text changes. Indexers must work in the same files as the publishers. Tagging tools allow indexing codes to be embedded in the electronic text after the indexing is complete. The indexer inserts numbered dummy tags in the files, and then builds the index separately. The final step uses macros to insert the indexing at each tag in the files. Many of these tools are developed in-house to fit the publishing group's needs. Keywording is used primarily in online help materials. It can be hard-coded jumps, similar to WWW links, or it can be inserted as embedded coding and built into a list by the software. Automated indexing software, a tool that now accompanies most word-processing software, builds a concordance, or a word list, from processed files. Although the manufacturers often claim these packages build indexes, the actual results are a list of words and phrases, sometimes useful in the beginning stages of building an index. Usability tests of these packages have shown that the word lists omit many key ideas and phrases, and cannot fine-tune terminology for easy retrieval, or build the needed hierarchies of ideas that professional indexing can. Free-text and weighted-text searching tools are not discussed in these pages, but are aspects of information retrieval that indexers are very interested in. Dedicated Indexing Software Note: Our goal is to provide a list of dedicated software geared toward professional indexers in general. Indexers certainly use other software packages in their work as needed, and to list all the available tools would be an enormous task. We also do not want to cross the line between providing useful product information and providing advertising. Cindex Indexing Research Box 18609 Rochester, New York 14618 (716) 461-5530 FAX: (716) 442-3924 ircindex@aol.com HyperIndex (for Macs) Andre De Tienne Peirce Edition Project, IUPUI CA 545, 425 University Blvd Indianapolis, IN 46202-5140 (317) 274-2033 Adetienn@iupui.edu IndexAid2 Santa Barbara Software Products 1400 Dover Road Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805) 963-4886 Indexer's Assistant INQUIRY 195 Sunny Hill Road Northampton, PA 18067 (215) 837-9615 INDEXX Norman Swartz 1053 Ridley Drive Burnaby, BC V5A 2N7 Canada (604) 420-7454 swartz@sfu.ca IN>SORT Kensa Software P.O. Box 4415 Northbrook, IL 60065 (708) 559-0297 Macrex Bayside Indexing Service P.O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 95015-0051 (415) 756-0821 FAX: (415) 757-1567 Macrex@aol.com SKY Index for Windows SKY Software 4675 York One Rd Lineboro, MD 21102 Voice and FAX: (410) 374-3484 email@sky-software.com wINDEX Susan Holbert Indexing Services 24 Harris Street Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 FAX: (617) 894-4665 susanh@world.std.com ________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:02:31 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: paul cowan unsubscribe Paul Cowan INDEX-L Here are some actual maintenance complaints submitted by US Air Force pilots and the replies from the maintenance crews. "Squawks" are problem listings that pilots generally leave for maintenance crews. Problem: "Dead bugs on windshield." Solution: "Live bugs on order." Problem: "Number three engine missing." Solution: "Engine found on right wing after brief search." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:04:26 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: paul cowan unsubscribe index-l Here are some actual maintenance complaints submitted by US Air Force pilots and the replies from the maintenance crews. "Squawks" are problem listings that pilots generally leave for maintenance crews. Problem: "Dead bugs on windshield." Solution: "Live bugs on order." Problem: "Number three engine missing." Solution: "Engine found on right wing after brief search." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:26:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New Kid needs Info With indexing programs, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for. Both CINDEX and Macrex are full-featured programs that can do most anything an indexer might want to do in the way of manipulating the information in the index. Sky and other less expensive programs give up some of that flexibility for speed of learning and low cost. So which should you buy? How serious are you about indexing. I suffered through using WordPerfect for my first two indexes, and when it became clear that I would be indexing on a regular basis, I opted for one of the professional programs--CINDEX, to be specific. If one were going to be indexing only small projects or only occasionally then one of the cheaper programs might be OK. Fred Leise Between the LInes Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:58:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Snoozers Jean Perla writes of gratitude for work, even if the book is a snoozer. = I agree. Still, some of the stuff that I've worked on lately makes me wish= I DID have a book on the lunar cycles of the celestial warthog. There hav= e been times when I have considered hiring an assistant to rush into my office every half hour or so, screaming and banging a gong to wake me up.= = Sometimes I fear that I will fall asleep and hit my head on the desk on t= he way down. I call it the MEGO cycle. Mine Eyes Glaze Over. Yet, I am grateful. Perhaps someone can explain that to me. In any case, I have another reason for writing to the list. The local (S= t. Louis) alternative newspaper--The Riverfront Times--ran an article on me and indexing in the May 21-27 issue. It is in a column called "Mississip= pi Mud" by Wm. Stage. Unfortunately, they didn't include it in their web page. So far, it has generated one call from a poor soul who has inherit= ed the task of preparing the index for a deceased friend's book. He has no budget and expects no revenues from the book so he isn't willing to pay anyone else to do the index. But I digress. If anyone is interested in seeing a copy of the column, let me know. Cheers, Craig Brown The Last Word = ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:01:45 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Stewart Subject: Re: Vocabulary control & xrefs In-Reply-To: <199705221319.JAA14614@mail.abts.net> Caroline, Good to see a posting from you! Quickly, I prefer the suggestion by Pam Rider Log phase adding, xxx phasing, xxx etc, xx rather than the parenthetical example. I do use parenthetical entries and qualifiers in some of my indexes, but for the example you had I prefered the main entry with subs. Missed you at ASI Hope all is well I will get in touch later when there is more time! dms "Language is the dress of Thought." Stewart Indexing Service dmstewart@abts.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:30:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Wilson Subject: Re: Snoozers Yes, Mr. Brown, I'd like a copy of the article. Address: John Wilson, P. O. Box 920123, Norcross, GA 30092-0123. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:14:46 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Vocabulary control & xrefs--thanks! In-Reply-To: <199705221336.HAA11947@Rt66.com> Thanks so much to everyone for your thoughts on this question! Along with what I think is a workable solution (Heather's), I also got a good lesson in how something that's perfectly obvious to me (because I've been practically *dreaming* about this index lately!) could actually be almost obscure to a fresh, uninvolved eye! The terms I used in my example : Add Log phase, 429, 431 Logging phase, 395 Update Logs phase, 276 are all given as titles of the same phase in the life cycle of an HTTP request being processed on a Netscape server (aren't you glad you asked?) The life cycle is described in four different places over three chapters; there are eight or nine phases. Several of the phases actually have the same title in three out of the four descriptions (!); the others are graced with three different names. So I do feel safe in wrapping all the titles for a given phase up together with parentheses. So Pam's solution, unfortunately, won't work > >Log phase > adding, 429, 431 > logging, 395 > updating, 276 > >Adding phases. See also (etc.) > >Logging phases. See also (etc.) > >Updating. See also (etc.) > But it certainly makes sense if you don't know the context! Back to work...it's gonna be a late one! Thanks again, Caroline ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:45:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: New Indexers: Finding Work At 04:59 PM 5/22/97 -0400, Barbara Cohen wrote: >However, I don't believe in sending out 100 letters at a time. I suggest to >my trainees sending out 5 well-researched and personally addressed letters >per week. That way if anyone hires you from the first batch, you haven't used >up your list of possible clients to contact after that first assignment is >done. Barbara, Interesting idea. I for one do send out loads of letters at once, usually about 50 every 3-4 months (trying to tie some in with publishing cycles, too), and sometimes it will be six months or more before I hear from anyone from a specific mailing. I do not call after I send these packets out, as I found that the usual response when I did was something like, "We'll call you if we have something." BUT I do hear from some of them (rate of return being similar to what Janet mentioned); I also keep sending my stuff to the some of the same places (if I feel that I can't live without indexing some of their books!) and that often works out for me, too. Janet was right; your materials ARE kept on file. I also keep records of to whom I send my marketing packets (date, names, subjects published, etc.). The cost of sending these mass mailings is more than adequately covered by the 1-2 jobs I get from each mailing. Best of all, I have gotten several clients for whom I work on a repeat basis from doing this sort of marketing. Like Barbara, I have a list of publishers for whom I want to work and the list is like a bottomless pit. There are so many publishers doing interesting books! You just have to get started with the mailings and let some time go by because that is just how it works, for the most part. Someone asked if patience is a virtue. I don't know if it is a virtue but it is necessary in this business. BTW, in August 1996, Margie Towery posted a marvelous list of things to do while you are looking/waiting for work. Perhaps Margie could repost that? (Hint.) There are many things to do as well as marketing during the time that you are looking/waiting for work, things that will make you a more competent professional when that phone call does come. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:55:52 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Vocabulary control & xrefs In-Reply-To: <199705230310.UAA27986@dns1.mcn.org> >Quickly, I prefer the suggestion by Pam Rider > Log phase > adding, xxx > phasing, xxx > etc, xx >rather than the parenthetical example. I don't understand why, if the terms given are synonyms, which according to the query in question they were, this is a good solution. It is a good solution if they are separate concepts, but that was not the question. Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:38:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: press releases Hi Everyone, Can anyone tell me what exactly Julia Child said about good indexes being so essential to books? Thanks to the Marketing Roundtable I'm writing myself a press release for our local paper's Business Highlights, and would like to quote Julia but I want to get it right. I should have written it down right away. I'm also working on the web site for the MedSci SIG and I'm open to suggestions. Thanks in advance! Rachel ------------------------------------------------------- Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:18:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MTOWERY@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Heartland Meeting ASI Heartland Chapter Meeting June 7, 1 p.m. - 5 p.m. Decatur Branch Library, 5301 Kentucky Ave. (southwest corner of Indianapolis) This will be primarily a business meeting, but we'll also talk about doings at the annual conference that some of us just attended. Business will include plans for summer picnic, logo pin update, fall meeting plans, and policies and procedures for our chapter. We hope to see you there, as we want everyone's input! Please bring finger foods to share and your own drinks. The Decatur library (a branch of Indy-Marion County Library) is near the southwest corner of Indy, just outside the beltway. From I-465, take exit 8 (Rt. 67/Kentucky Ave.) and turn southwest. The library is a mile or so, next to a high school. Questions? Contact Sandy Topping (sctopping@aol.com) or me. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: reference lists This query is specific to scholarly type books. How many of you on a regular basis index the reference list authors? Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:42:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Laughlin Subject: Re: Snoozers How did you get started as an indexer? I would like to get into the buisness. John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:47:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Laughlin Subject: Re: New Kid needs Info I would like to get started in indexing. Any ideas how? Any good web sites on the topic or possible work? John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:47:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Disability insurance Cynthia, While Sandi is investigating the possibilities of group disability insurance, you might want to check with a local insurance agent. I asked the agent who handles my auto and homeowners insurance recently about disability insurance. She gave me information about 2 companies (Provident and Washington National) so there must be many more that sell policies to individuals. Our occupation is one of the least risky so the premiums are not ridiculously high. I haven't actually purchased a policy yet, but my understanding was that I would be covered for loss of sight as well as loss of a hand or foot. I need to get more details about coverage for long-term illnesses, but in general the coverage was for inability to perform the tasks of my current occupation (after a certain number of months of disability.) Hope this helps, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:32:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New Indexers: Finding Work All, I think Barbara Cohen's comments regarding how she markets are extremely interesting ... and a way of doing things that I hadn't thought of before. I would think about this approach and perhaps go with it. You could blitz the market with 100 letters at a time and be successful, and you could send out fewer letters at a time and refine your letter as time goes by as Barbara suggests too. Barbara, thanks for sharing those ideas. I've learned something myself! Excellent! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:49:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tabs, mylar tabs There are actually two types of indexing. One, which most of us do, and the mechanical insertion of tabs on the sides of pages etc. Actually if you look into Literary Marketplace under indexing, you will find the mechanical types of indexing. We fall under Editorial. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: New Indexers: Finding Work In-Reply-To: <199705230429.XAA27105@mixcom.mixcom.com> Might I add to Janet's wise advice? On the matter of meeting people and networking, be sure to read the business section of your local newspaper for networking opportunities. Just a few days ago, I stumbled across a Milwaukee-based organization called Wisconsin Venture Network. At their monthly luncheons, anyone who wants to can go up to the mike and take two minutes to describe their business and display marketing materials at the back table! All of these two-minute pitches are then written up in the org's newsletter. So look for meetings you can attend where you might run into folks in charge of publications. *Always* bring business cards with you. (If anyone wants info on Venture Network's next meeting, please e-mail me privately.) In fact, I never go anywhere anymore without business cards. Even if you're a brand new indexer, get a business card. Give 'em out like candy. On the matter of bulk mailings, I fully agree with Janet, although I never actually send out as many as 100 at a time. I tend to send out fewer than 50. I also tailor the cover letter for each publisher, looking carefully at what they actually publish. In March I sent out 27 and within a week had a new book from a new client. That's probably very unusual--don't be discouraged if it takes months to hear anything. I certainly am not discounting those other 26 publishers, some of whom may get around to trying me out in a year's time. Or not. In the meantime, I won't be sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. I'll be getting out to meetings. Because I find it difficult to approach strangers, especially in large-group settings, I set myself a modest goal of handing out just 1 or 2 business cards every time I go to a meeting. Good luck, everybody. Try to be patient. It's worth it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: To Debbie Stewart Sorry to post this to the list, but e-mail keeps bouncing! Deborah, please send me a note at norcross@ix.netcom.com. I cannot seem to get any mail to you; the ABTS address bounces back every time, and juno doesn't seem to be getting through, either. Thanks, Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:16:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New Indexers: Finding Work Here's another new indexer's perspective on marketing letters. I think Barbara Cohen's suggestion to send out "5 well-researched and personally addressed letters per week" instead of bulk mailings of 100 exactly-the-same letters makes perfect sense. Here's what I've done. I began sending out marketing letters in March; I've only sent out 12 total. So far the result is one good job (of exactly the sort I'm looking for) and one message from a managing editor saying he'll look for a project for me in the near future. The package I send out consists of a cover letter, my "resume", and two complete sample indexes. I call the publisher to find out who the package should go to. The cover letter demonstrates my familiarity with their current publishing program --I research recent and forthcoming titles before writing. I mention one or two specific titles I admire as well (truthfully of course!). I recap, briefly, those elements of my resume which qualify me to work on books of the sort they publish. I enclose sample indexes, preferably two, in the topic area(s) I'm asking to work in. (I include a kind of disclaimer which says that the samples are not published indexes because I'm fairly new to indexing, and that they were prepared without length or style guidelines, so other styles are of course possible depending on what the client needs.) And I close by telling them I will telephone during a specific week in the near future to see if they need other information. Then I do it (usually I end up talking to their voice mail, saying I look forward to hearing from them when they have a project I can help them with). If I were an editor choosing a new freelancer from a pool of unknowns, I'd pick someone whose work I had seen (hence the samples) and who showed they knew what my publishing program was about. It's time-consuming to do the research it takes to demonstrate this, but I think it's worth it. Preparing a wide variety of sample indexes also takes lots of time--but I've learned so much by doing it. Also, sending out a few letters at a time allows you to make changes as you become aware of refinements you should add. For instance, I've decided to say from now on that I am a *full time* freelance indexer instead of just a freelance indexer, because I had one editor ask, implying that he had found it frustrating to deal with part-timers because of their limited availability. Instead of wishing I had told 100 potential customers something slightly different, I just incorporate the change to my ongoing marketing program. I'd be interested in hearing more from new indexers who have succeeded in getting work on the specifics of their marketing programs--let's offer some more encouragement to those who have not yet had results. --Therese Shere ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: MEGO Craig, that's hysterical. I know the syndrome. The Springfield Union just ran an article on me, let's trade copies! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:02:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: New Indexers: Finding Work Cynthia: Just my two cents, but I thought it was a wonderful idea, sending out five letters a week for 20 weeks. I think this would work for anyone who's job hunting, not just indexers. On Fri, 23 May 1997 06:45:02 -0400 Cynthia Bertelsen writes: >At 04:59 PM 5/22/97 -0400, Barbara Cohen wrote: > >>However, I don't believe in sending out 100 letters at a time. I >suggest to >>my trainees sending out 5 well-researched and personally addressed >letters >>per week. That way if anyone hires you from the first batch, you >haven't used >>up your list of possible clients to contact after that first >assignment is >>done. > >Barbara, > >Interesting idea. > >I for one do send out loads of letters at once, usually about 50 every >3-4 >months (trying to tie some in with publishing cycles, too), and >sometimes it >will be six months or more before I hear from anyone from a specific >mailing. I do not call after I send these packets out, as I found that >the >usual response when I did was something like, "We'll call you if we >have >something." BUT I do hear from some of them (rate of return being >similar >to what Janet mentioned); I also keep sending my stuff to the some of >the >same places (if I feel that I can't live without indexing some of >their >books!) and that often works out for me, too. Janet was right; your >materials ARE kept on file. I also keep records of to whom I send my >marketing packets (date, names, subjects published, etc.). The cost of >sending these mass mailings is more than adequately covered by the 1-2 >jobs >I get from each mailing. Best of all, I have gotten several clients >for >whom I work on a repeat basis from doing this sort of marketing. Like >Barbara, I have a list of publishers for whom I want to work and the >list is >like a bottomless pit. There are so many publishers doing interesting >books! > >You just have to get started with the mailings and let some time go by >because that is just how it works, for the most part. Someone asked >if >patience is a virtue. I don't know if it is a virtue but it is >necessary in >this business. > >BTW, in August 1996, Margie Towery posted a marvelous list of things >to do >while you are looking/waiting for work. Perhaps Margie could repost >that? >(Hint.) There are many things to do as well as marketing during the >time >that you are looking/waiting for work, things that will make you a >more >competent professional when that phone call does come. > > > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > >***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:22:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Responding to e-mail In-Reply-To: <199705101411.AA29078@world.std.com> Group - I got an interesting e-mail yesterday from someone at MercuryCT1@aol.com. This person (Adrian) says his business is Mercury Print Productions and he got my name and e-mail address from the Freelance Editorial Association. I'm not desperate for work (in fact, I'm tied up until late June) and I'm a bit wary about responding to this request but on the other hand, my home address and phone number are in the FLEA book so sending my resume probably doesn't hurt. He's in the 860 area code but I haven't called the number yet to see who answers. Since he's not from an established publisher or corporation, I asked for the names of other freelancers who've worked for him. Does this seem reasonable? I'm kind of inclined to steer clear but I'd hate to blow off a legitimate job oppotunity either. Any advice? Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:31:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Responding to e-mail In-Reply-To: <199705231923.MAA03849@mail5.netcom.com> I would be very careful. On one of those news shows (Dateline I think) there was an episode about someone answering an ad posted on a usenet and ran into major problems. This might not be the same as the information came from the association but a call to the Better Business Bureau or some publisher organization might be helpful. Roberta Horowitz On Fri, 23 May 1997, Sarah H Lemaire wrote: > Group - > > I got an interesting e-mail yesterday from someone at MercuryCT1@aol.com. > This person (Adrian) says his business is Mercury Print Productions and he > got my name and e-mail address from the Freelance Editorial Association. > I'm not desperate for work (in fact, I'm tied up until late June) and I'm > a bit wary about responding to this request but on the other hand, my home > address and phone number are in the FLEA book so sending my resume > probably doesn't hurt. He's in the 860 area code but I haven't called the > number yet to see who answers. > > Since he's not from an established publisher or corporation, I asked for > the names of other freelancers who've worked for him. Does this seem > reasonable? > > I'm kind of inclined to steer clear but I'd hate to blow off a legitimate > job oppotunity either. > > Any advice? > > Sarah Lemaire > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:43:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Responding to e-mail In-Reply-To: Sarah H Lemaire "Responding to e-mail" (May 23, 3:22pm) Sarah, You are right in wanting to know more about Adrian at MercuryCT1@aol.com. I heard from him too. So I wrote back to him asking him who he was, without volunteering any information. I even turned off my message signature. He explained that is from Mercury Print Productions in Connecticut, and that MPP is a print provider. He is marketing his company (not offering a contract). His goal in writing you (and me, and others) is to sell to the people who might use printers: the production people. I replied to him, told him my services (and that I don't use printers often, if at all), and asked him for more detailed information about MPP. I think in general we should always be wary of unsolicited email, just as we are when somebody we don't recognize calls us on the telephone. - Seth > I got an interesting e-mail yesterday from someone at MercuryCT1@aol.com. > This person (Adrian) says his business is Mercury Print Productions and he > got my name and e-mail address from the Freelance Editorial Association. > I'm not desperate for work (in fact, I'm tied up until late June) and I'm > a bit wary about responding to this request but on the other hand, my home > address and phone number are in the FLEA book so sending my resume > probably doesn't hurt. He's in the 860 area code but I haven't called the > number yet to see who answers. > Since he's not from an established publisher or corporation, I asked for > the names of other freelancers who've worked for him. Does this seem > reasonable? > I'm kind of inclined to steer clear but I'd hate to blow off a legitimate > job oppotunity either. -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:29:39 -0400 Reply-To: CKelso@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CKelso Subject: Re: New Indexers: Finding Work Hi All: After reading all the "finding work" postings, I wonder if anyone can post a sample letter that an Indexer would send to a potential client. What about the "newbies" who haven't much experience? I'm considering Indexing - not yet in practice. I'm learning a lot from all the INDEX-L postings. You're a great group! CKelso ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:35:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: Re: Responding to e-mail In a message dated 97-05-23 16:05:38 EDT, Seth writes: << I think in general we should always be wary of unsolicited email, just as we are when somebody we don't recognize calls us on the telephone. >> Good advice! For those who may be interested, this is MercuryCT1@aol.com's profile on AOL. Marilyn Rowland Member Name: Adrian Mercury Print Productions Location: Old Saybrook, CT, but spend a lot of time in NY, and NJ. Birthdate: 06/07 Sex: Male Marital Status: Single and looking !!! Hobbies: All water sports, skiing (water/snow), fishing, mountain biking, rollerblading, weight lifting, photography, travel, many more ! Computers: IBM & Power Mac Occupation: Printing Account Executive Personal Quote: Live every day to the fullest, because every day is another opportunity to succeed ! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:40:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: Re: press releases Rachel, I can't recall exactly what Julia Child said at the conference, but in her Introduction to _The Way To Cook_ (NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1995), she writes: "A reference or teaching book is only as good as its index. This one--by far the most intelligent in any of my books--was prepared by Pat Kelly, one of the founders of The Culinary Historians of Boston." Marilyn Rowland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:47:41 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Disability insurance: where else to shop for it. As for me, I get my insurance through the National Associate of the Self Empoloyed. 800 232 NASE. I have no connection, except my membership, which qualifies me to by major medical insurance there. MaryMort@AOL.COM wrote: > > Cynthia, > While Sandi is investigating the possibilities of group disability insurance, > you might want to check with a local insurance agent. I asked the agent who > handles my auto and homeowners insurance recently about disability insurance. > She gave me information about 2 companies (Provident and Washington > National) so there must be many more that sell policies to individuals. Our > occupation is one of the least risky so the premiums are not ridiculously > high. I haven't actually purchased a policy yet, but my understanding was > that I would be covered for loss of sight as well as loss of a hand or foot. > I need to get more details about coverage for long-term illnesses, but in > general the coverage was for inability to perform the tasks of my current > occupation (after a certain number of months of disability.) > > Hope this helps, > Mary > -- > * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com > * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:20:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Disability insurance I have my disability insurance through Provident (one of the ones mentioned by Mary M.), and I think it is reasonably priced for what I would get if I needed to use it. (Covers basic living expenses should I be incapacitated from indexing for more than 2 months.) I went to a workshop years ago in which we were told the following statistics for a woman, aged 40: 1 in 70 chance of claim for car insurance 1 in 105 chance of claim for life insurance 1 in 88 chance of claim for homeowners insurance 1 in 8 chance of claim for health and disability insurance I decided to get disability insurance shortly thereafter. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:18:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Responding to e-mail Marilyn Rowland wrote: > > In a message dated 97-05-23 16:05:38 EDT, Seth writes: > > << I think in general we should always be wary of unsolicited email, just > as we are when somebody we don't recognize calls us on the telephone. > >> > > Good advice! For those who may be interested, this is MercuryCT1@aol.com's > profile on AOL. > > Marilyn Rowland > > Member Name: Adrian Mercury Print Productions > Location: Old Saybrook, CT, but spend a lot of time in NY, and NJ. > Birthdate: 06/07 > Sex: Male > Marital Status: Single and looking !!! > Hobbies: All water sports, skiing (water/snow), fishing, mountain biking, > rollerblading, weight lifting, photography, travel, many more ! > Computers: IBM & Power Mac > Occupation: Printing Account Executive > Personal Quote: Live every day to the fullest, because every day is another > opportunity to succeed ! Born in in June of 1907??!! Pretty darn active for a 90-year-old guy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:41:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanna Flaherty Subject: Finding Work-New Indexers I find the posts about new indexers and finding work interesting and helpful, especially Therese Shere, who had a great approach. I'm curious---does anyone know exactly how many working free-lance indexers there are, compared to the number of books published each year? I thought I read that ASI had a membership of 950 (??) I've always been impressed by the helpfulness and graciousness of veteran indexers helping out new folks--unlike some professions that actively try to keep newcomers out to have more business for the ones already in! I also wonder if the boom in companies that push home-based businesses has more people than before considering indexing. Jeanna Flaherty Jeanna Flaherty I N D E X I N G ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:57:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: New Kid needs Info In a message dated 97-05-23 14:54:31 EDT, you write: > I would like to get started in indexing. Any ideas how? Any good web sites > on the topic or possible work? John, Check out the American Society of Indexer's (ASI) web site at: http://www.well.com/user/asi/ There's a Frequently Asked Questions section that's very good, how to get started, courses, resources, meetings, conferences, seminars, marketing ideas, etc. Good luck! Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 03:00:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GVHatch@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Finding Work-New Indexers In a message dated 97-05-23 21:19:47 EDT, you write: << I'm curious---does anyone know exactly how many working free-lance indexers there are, compared to the number of books published each year? I thought I read that ASI had a membership of 950 (??) >> Actually, membership now is around 1400. I have no idea how many books are published per year, but when you take into account large presses, small presses, authors publishing their own books etc. there seems to be work enough to go around. Yes, the people in the indexing profession are generous with advice and genuinely nice people to be around. I think most indexers are more concerned with making sure that quality indexes are being produced than trying to sabotage the competition. If you haven't already, you should get involved with the local chapter or group closest to you. That is a wonderful way to develop friendships and find people to offer advice. Gaylene ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:26:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Number of indexers (was: Finding Work-New Indexers) In-Reply-To: <970524030047_-1565549010@emout14.mail.aol.com> On Sat, 24 May 1997 GVHatch@aol.com wrote: > Actually, membership now is around 1400. I have no idea how many books are > published per year, but when you take into account large presses, small > presses, authors publishing their own books etc. there seems to be work > enough to go around. And then you have to think of all the indexers who are not ASI members. Here, in Seattle, I know quite a few. (And I'm just one little person in this enormous city.) My guess is that there are at least half as many indexers in the United States who are _not_ ASI members, as are. So, if membership is 1400, I'd roughly estimate (keywords: roughly estimate) that there are at least another 700 that are not. And, that is just the U.S. Then, there are folks who write indexes, but who don't know that they are "indexing" or that there are professional indexers - folks who do an index for a friend or colleague now & then. It's funny how many people I meet say they've done that before. I bet there are lots of people in that situation. If they knew that there is an entire professional community of indexers, they just might flip. (some have) As for publishers, sure there are small presses & authors publishing their own texts, not to mention the flurry of desktop publishing services..... But, how many of those actually contract with indexers? Do they generate concordances using their word processors? Do they ask authors to create their own? Do they even remember to include an index? I'd love to figure out how to spread the word that a good index is worth XYZ to such a company. Wish there was a way... But I digress. Even given my above estimations, there is _plenty_ of work to go around. (Wouldn't it be neat if we could see how many titles in _Books In Print_ do not have indexes? Even so, that is just U.S. publishing.) That is what I think helps indexers be so comfortable with their skills. We all have a niche. Maybe not a specialization, but a niche. Most of the indexers I've met are good at figuring out what makes them stand apart from the rest & at finding out how to market that. I've been thrilled, too, to meet so many professionals who freely give advice & support. In many (most?) other professions, people get so busy being one-up on everyone else and they seem to feel so threatened by new members of the profession. Indexers are different. We're definitely a rare breed. 8-) -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:07:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: Number of indexers (was: Finding Work-New Indexers) In-Reply-To: <199705251435.KAA04230@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Here at the Florida Legislature's Division of Statutory Revision, the indexing unit holds a single membership to ASI rather than individual memberships. At one time we were six; now we are four. Sue Healy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:44:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: New book on names Just wanted to share this with those who find foreign names to be a problem at times in indexing: Ingraham, Holly. People's Names: A Cross-Cultural Reference Guide to the Proper Use of Over 40,000 Personal and Familial Names in Over 100 Cultures. Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Company, Inc., 1997. ISBN 00786401877. There is a wealth of information about name order, types of names, titles, familial relationships found in naming, day of the week inserted into names , etc. Also included are naming practices in certain historical periods. While the book is not 100% comprehensive because of its size (613 pages), it is a great resource for little known facts about naming practices in many cultures. These facts would be time-consuming to track down otherwise. There is a selective bibliography. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:02:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: reference lists Sandi wrote: >This query is specific to scholarly type books. How many of you on a regular >basis index the reference list authors? In scholarly books, I index: all authors referenced in the text; authors ^cited^ in foot- or endnotes (not authors listed as bibliographic references); and NOT the reference list itself. (I use it for looking up first names if necessary.) All of these choices, of course, are subject to the publisher's preferences; I have one scholarly publisher that does not have me index authors cited in the text unless their views are extensively discussed. An important thing to remember about scholarly books is that research is (almost) always based on other people's research, and therefore knowing who was cited is very important to the book's audience. There's a whole interwoven web of citations in each field. On the other hand, I think that it's the job of the bibliography to ^list^ all of the works cited. The job of the index is to refer the reader to actual textual material related to a citation. When an author recently wanted me to index all of the (many, many) bibliographic citations in the notes (like this: 2. For more information about this subject, read...[15 books].), and I discovered that the book did not ^have^ a reference list, I told her that I didn't think it was good indexing practice, but that I was happy to do it, for an extra amount per page--since she was basically asking me to create the bibliography in the index. There, you have my opinion! Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:18:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: reference lists In-Reply-To: <199705241602.JAA08448@mx4.u.washington.edu> On authors cited in the text, footnotes etc. but not pure references: In my most recent index I have an set of entries under Authorities. Authors and others listed either have their views discussed extensively in the book or were the producers of letters of personal communications cited. Since the work is a translation with a book length introduction, I also list editors of the text (Chinese), etc. In another index, of an anthropological text, I indexed all those cited in the text proper since the book in question was in many ways a guide to the literature on the topic. Note that here I am probably following European indexing methods. The germans often have a separate list for such authorities, foreign words, books, etc. A technical question: what is the best way to index an Arabic work? I have been listing them under the first real word after the article or introductory particle. And should there be a see when, for example, a work is cited without the article or particle? This is what I have done (for a multi-author work with one index) but am not sure the see was necessary, after all, if you have the language one would logically look in both places. Paul D. Buell PS: I am another Seattle indexer who is not an ASI member, but I plan to fix that soon since, unlike the ATA (I do translation too), the ASI does not seem to be comprised of an elite of self-appointed "haves" that is trying to cut the competition whatever the cost... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:54:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: database help requested Hi, I know there are a number of database professionals out there and I wonder if you can help me out. I've been given an assignment because I'm an 'orderly thinker' and because I can spend hours researching facts and figures. Well, the result is that I've been asked to document a database that has been growing for two years and where no data dictionaries or file linkages have been written down. They are all in the heads of two brilliant people who seem to dislike (or simply haven't had the time needed) documentation. On Friday, the 'powers' told me that I would be given two days per week to pull together the documentation. AND that it would be a terrific way for me to learn the database!! I'm sure it will but where should I start. Could anyone fax me a few pages of a data dictionary format that works? I thought I could put it together as an Access database itself. Then I could build a report that would show all the links and which tables were filled in from the which data entry screens. Is this crazy? I haven't done anything like this before. The database seems to have around 100 tables and 20-30 data entry screens. I just flipped through the screens last week for the first time. There are lots of fields named things like userfield 1 and userfield 2 but no one has actually written down what the customary entries are, if tables are used to provide entry, and what reports the fields are appearing in. etc etc. Please write to me off INDEX-L because this isn't quite an indexing problem. Thanks - for 'listening'. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:11:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: database help requested Hi Sharon: I was interested in your post, since I'm also using Microsoft Access for 3 different database projects. However, none of the databases I'll be working with have that many tables. Can you let me know how the project goes. It sounds huge. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:50:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: FRED BROWN Subject: database help requested If you're looking for an "indexing angle" to your database problem you = might consider building your data dictionary initially in a dedicated = indexing package (e.g. MACREX or CINDEX). You would assign a reference locator (i.e. page number) to each table. = Next, you would assign meaningful names to each table and field. Then = you would then index each table with as a main entry with the fields as = sub-entries. You would also post each field as a main entry. You could = also enter the original table and field names and make "See" = cross-references to your more meaningful names. As you find connections = between fields in different tables you would make "See Also" = cross-references. To print the information by table, all you have to do is put the index = in page number order By the end this indexing process you would likely have a pretty good = handle on the contents and structure of your database. Good luck! Fred Brown * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fred Brown McCrae Consulting Associates "Technical Communication" fredb@cyberus.ca Phone: 613-728-5761 Fax: 613-728-9373 31 Grange Ave., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1Y 0N8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:02:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Ethical dilemma I was considering trying to get work from a major publisher of computer books. Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of indexes to their books. I was stunned by what I found. One of the indexes was easily one of the worst indexes I have ever come across in my 25 years as an indexer, the other was just very bad. The kinds of mistakes I found covered the entire range of possibilities: 1. missing page references. 2. important topics covered extensively in the text entirely missing from the index. 3. exactly synonymous terms indexed separately with no cross-references between the synonyms, so that each of the synonyms ended up with different page numbers. 4. double posting with nonmatching sets of page numbers. 5. indexing of terms mentioned only in passing, with no attendant discussion. 6. obvious ignorance of the meaning of basic terms of art. 7. misalphabetization and inconsistent alphabetization. 8. In addition to the above, the indexes were replete with typos and cop yediting mistakes. I could give specific examples ad nauseam of all the types of mistakes (I stopped counting when I got to a hundred). These are the elements of my dilemma: 1. Do I simply forget about working for this company, since it clearly manifests such an indifference to quality? 2. Do I send my resume in but make no reference to the quality issues? 3. Do I send my resume in and call the publisher's attention to these mistakes? 4. Do I write a private letter to the indexer (whose name is given in the book)? 5. Do I have an obligation to readers in general? 6. Which is the higher duty: to say nothing bad about colleagues or to improve the quality of indexes? In the horns, Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive, 9A New York, NY 10025 Voice: 212.864.2121 Fax: 212.222.2921 Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads A while ago, Nancy wrote: > >With all due respect to Fred's pronouncement that duplicate page numbers >are ok, I know that I learned from some expert source they weren't. I went >back to the notes I took years ago and found the source to be G.Norman >Knight's Indexing, The Art of. Knight gives an example: > coloring, 29-40 > with wax, 52 >and says there should be no subheadings about coloring on pages 29-40. He >says not to use a subheading if it can be a heading (unless you are making >a cross-reference to a heading). Now, I don't have the book, so if anyone >does, or has seen this idea, can they explain Knight's reasoning? And why >don't most indexers today follow it? > I'd like to address this, because I keep finding myself discussing it. I don't know Knight, though! I know there are different opinions (and in fact have heard of different publishers requring opposite approaches). Anyway, here's mine. When I find a long page span about one subject, I feel that the reader deserves to know about the existence of a long discussion. As a reader myself I often go looking amid many locators for the Main Discussion of the topic. An example: I was looking in my Wordperfect book for information about search and replace. It turned up in lots of different places in the book; there were lots of different subheads under it in the index. But I knew that the information I wanted was in the basic section where they tell you all about search and replace. And I had a hard time finding that section because the indexer had broken up the information into little bits. I've heard people argue that if the long span is a whole chapter, you shouldn't put it in because it can be found in the table of contents. I don't agree; I think that the index and the table of contents are two different tools, used at different times. When I was looking for the chapter on search and replace I wanted to find it in the index, not have to look in two places. Another example: in the jazz history book I just indexed, there was a chapter on jam sessions and their importance in the development of bebop. Jam sessions, of course, turned up in a great many other places in the book. If I was a reader looking for information on jam sessions, I would want to know that there was a whole long discussion on it. And furthermore, this being a scholarly book, the chapter was called "The Jazzmen's True Academy." Not much help from the TOC! So we have a long span after the general topic, thereby notifying the reader of its existence. It's still not fair to make them look all the way through it if they don't want to. So the section ^also^ needs to be broken down into subheads. And there you have it: duplicate page numbers in the general section and in subheads. On the other hand, if you have a heading that looks like this: Jam sessions, 42, 43, 50 after-hours, 40-45 I would delete 42 and 43 after the main heading! Those are not useful. Okay, let the debate begin! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:32:15 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma Mario, My son, the soon to be graduate of psychology, recently gave me some excellent advice I will pass on - "What is your goal?":-} The answer to that question frequently answers ethical dilemmas for me. Ginny McHenry Maro Riofrancos wrote: > > I was considering trying to get work from a major publisher of computer > books. Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of indexes to their > books. > > I was stunned by what I found. One of the indexes was easily one of the > worst indexes I have ever come across in my 25 years as an indexer, the > other was just very bad. > > The kinds of mistakes I found covered the entire range of possibilities: > > 1. missing page references. > 2. important topics covered extensively in the text entirely missing from > the index. > 3. exactly synonymous terms indexed separately with no cross-references > between the synonyms, so that each of the synonyms ended up with different > page numbers. > 4. double posting with nonmatching sets of page numbers. > 5. indexing of terms mentioned only in passing, with no attendant > discussion. > 6. obvious ignorance of the meaning of basic terms of art. > 7. misalphabetization and inconsistent alphabetization. > 8. In addition to the above, the indexes were replete with typos and cop > yediting mistakes. > > I could give specific examples ad nauseam of all the types of mistakes (I > stopped counting when I got to a hundred). > > These are the elements of my dilemma: > > 1. Do I simply forget about working for this company, since it clearly > manifests such an indifference to quality? > 2. Do I send my resume in but make no reference to the quality issues? > 3. Do I send my resume in and call the publisher's attention to these > mistakes? > 4. Do I write a private letter to the indexer (whose name is given in the > book)? > 5. Do I have an obligation to readers in general? > 6. Which is the higher duty: to say nothing bad about colleagues or to > improve the quality of indexes? > > In the horns, > > Maro Riofrancos > Riofrancos & Co. Indexes > 290 Riverside Drive, 9A > New York, NY 10025 > Voice: 212.864.2121 > Fax: 212.222.2921 > Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:54:16 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads Curious, I pulled out my Art of Indexing and found it was authored by Larry Bonura. Skimming through I found no mention that duplicate page numbers were or were not allowed so I looked at the index of the book itself. I found: testing indexes 22, 24, 135-142 for accuracy 136 for answer-the-question indexing 35 for concisesness 138 Just my two cents! :-] Ginny McHenry DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > > A while ago, Nancy wrote: > > > >With all due respect to Fred's pronouncement that duplicate page numbers > >are ok, I know that I learned from some expert source they weren't. I went > >back to the notes I took years ago and found the source to be G.Norman > >Knight's Indexing, The Art of. Knight gives an example: > > coloring, 29-40 > > with wax, 52 > >and says there should be no subheadings about coloring on pages 29-40. He > >says not to use a subheading if it can be a heading (unless you are making > >a cross-reference to a heading). Now, I don't have the book, so if anyone > >does, or has seen this idea, can they explain Knight's reasoning? And why > >don't most indexers today follow it? > > > I'd like to address this, because I keep finding myself discussing it. I > don't know Knight, though! I know there are different opinions (and in fact > have heard of different publishers requring opposite approaches). Anyway, > here's mine. > > When I find a long page span about one subject, I feel that the reader > deserves to know about the existence of a long discussion. As a reader myself > I often go looking amid many locators for the Main Discussion of the topic. > An example: I was looking in my Wordperfect book for information about search > and replace. It turned up in lots of different places in the book; there were > lots of different subheads under it in the index. But I knew that the > information I wanted was in the basic section where they tell you all about > search and replace. And I had a hard time finding that section because the > indexer had broken up the information into little bits. > > I've heard people argue that if the long span is a whole chapter, you > shouldn't put it in because it can be found in the table of contents. I don't > agree; I think that the index and the table of contents are two different > tools, used at different times. When I was looking for the chapter on search > and replace I wanted to find it in the index, not have to look in two places. > Another example: in the jazz history book I just indexed, there was a chapter > on jam sessions and their importance in the development of bebop. Jam > sessions, of course, turned up in a great many other places in the book. If I > was a reader looking for information on jam sessions, I would want to know > that there was a whole long discussion on it. And furthermore, this being a > scholarly book, the chapter was called "The Jazzmen's True Academy." Not > much help from the TOC! > > So we have a long span after the general topic, thereby notifying the reader > of its existence. It's still not fair to make them look all the way through > it if they don't want to. So the section ^also^ needs to be broken down into > subheads. And there you have it: duplicate page numbers in the general > section and in subheads. > > On the other hand, if you have a heading that looks like this: > > Jam sessions, 42, 43, 50 > after-hours, 40-45 > > I would delete 42 and 43 after the main heading! Those are not useful. > > Okay, let the debate begin! > > Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma Maro Riofrancos wrote: > I was considering trying to get work from a major publisher of computer > books. Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of indexes to their > books. > > I was stunned by what I found. One of the indexes was easily one of the > worst indexes I have ever come across in my 25 years as an indexer, the > other was just very bad. > > The kinds of mistakes I found covered the entire range of possibilities: ------8<--------- > These are the elements of my dilemma: And here are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth. > 1. Do I simply forget about working for this company, since it clearly > manifests such an indifference to quality? Depends on how badly you need the money. Seriously, this is not meant as a snide remark. I have a friend who is a highly-trained graphics artist. She is doing a lot of book covers for computer books and other short-lived publications; she calls herself a graphics prostitute. Sometimes I feel like an indexing slut, myself, but... my mortgage and health insurance are always paid (and usually on time :-). Be aware that a poor index is often contributed to by the time constraints imposed by a publisher, or by publishers editing finished indexes without indexer help. If this would upset you, do not work for that publisher. If you have the income and the freedom to pick and choose clients, by all means do so. There are some books I would not index--because of subject matter--no matter how badly I needed the money; as I've said here before, I do temp office work when I have to, rather than having no work at all. > 2. Do I send my resume in but make no reference to the quality issues? Yes. It is certainly appropriate, and desirable, to talk about your familiarity with the content of their publications. Let them know you are interested in what *they* are producing, and tell them what you can contribute (not what others are failing to contribute). Keep the focus on yourself and your skills and services. > 3. Do I send my resume in and call the publisher's attention to these > mistakes? No. > 4. Do I write a private letter to the indexer (whose name is given in the > book)? If it is my name in the book, then yes, I definitely want to hear from you--but not on the list, please. I do a lot of work for... let's see, what phrase did you use... ah yes, "a major publisher of computer books. In fact, this weekend I am indexing an 800-page book for them (note: I don't know which publisher Maro is talking about). That's right, this *weekend*. I received the entire manuscript on Thursday, at 7:30 pm, and I have to deliver the index at 8:00 am Tuesday morning. Will there be errors in this index? Probably. Errors of omission and depth, mainly. My main goals for this index are: all page locaters correct; no spelling errors; all 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level headings in the book appear in the index under an appropriate keyword. That's about it. Fortunately, it is a very well-written and well-organized book with lots of nice task-oriented headings. I'm doing as many dialog boxes, windows, menus, and buttons as I can, but I can guarantee you that they are not all going to appear in the index. I'm concentrating on tasks rather than on names of things, and I'm using a lot of See and See also references rather than combining topics under a single index entry; I have some page ranges that span more than 5 or 6 pages... not something I usually like to do. I have subcontracted out 2 dense chapters (Hi, Dick!), and am doing the rest myself. This book will have a shelf life (as estimated by the publisher) of approximately 6 months. It is being sold in stores and given away with product purchase in some cases. It is being advertised on the Internet. The audience is both new and experienced users. Am I thrilled that my name will be on the credits page? I don't mind. Will people be able to find things like "e-mail address, finding" and "passwords" and "printing" and "saving" and "home pages" and "Java" and "chat" in my index? Yup. Will they find "ALIGN attribute, EMBED tag" in this index? Nope. But they will find "HTML tags" and "EMBED tag" and "Web pages, creating." What the heck is my point? I'm a good indexer. I work hard, and I don't like to make mistakes and produce poor indexes. I also like to pay my bills, and so I take on projects like this one. If you looked at the index for this book, and based on this index, decided that you needed to call my client and tell them how bad a job I'm doing for them, hindering repeat sales, causing difficulties for their readers, etc., etc., I might be out of work. On the other hand (and perhaps of more interest to you), my client knows how hard I work for them. They appreciate this rush job (appreciate it with words and with bonus money); they might just tell you to take a hike, and then you would be out of work. As I said before, keep the focus on YOU and what YOU can do for the client. > 5. Do I have an obligation to readers in general? Yes. Your obligation is to the readers of the books YOU are indexing; do a good job within whatever constraints you are presented with. Telling one publisher about one or two bad indexes will not serve all that many "readers in general." You can't fix the past; start from where you are now, and do what you can. > 6. Which is the higher duty: to say nothing bad about colleagues or to > improve the quality of indexes? Are they mutually exclusive? Are these the only two choices? I don't really see it that way. You don't have to trash a colleague in order to do good indexing. And seeking to make the world safe for "readers in general" by getting another indexer fired (or not rehired, which amounts to the same thing) doesn't feel like good karma to me. Ann Norcross (Finishing data entry today; starting final edit tonight; will edit all day Monday, then sleep! And thanks, Dick!) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:40:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma That begs the question. The reason it's a dilemma is that there are several incompatible options, and I'm not sure what my priorities are or ought to be. Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive, 9A New York, NY 10025 Voice: 212.864.2121 Fax: 212.222.2921 Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com -----Original Message----- From: Virginia G. McHenry [SMTP:vmchenry@IX.NETCOM.COM] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 1997 12:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma Mario, My son, the soon to be graduate of psychology, recently gave me some excellent advice I will pass on - "What is your goal?":-} The answer to that question frequently answers ethical dilemmas for me. Ginny McHenry Maro Riofrancos wrote: > > I was considering trying to get work from a major publisher of computer > books. Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of indexes to their > books. > > I was stunned by what I found. One of the indexes was easily one of the > worst indexes I have ever come across in my 25 years as an indexer, the > other was just very bad. > > The kinds of mistakes I found covered the entire range of possibilities: > > 1. missing page references. > 2. important topics covered extensively in the text entirely missing from > the index. > 3. exactly synonymous terms indexed separately with no cross-references > between the synonyms, so that each of the synonyms ended up with different > page numbers. > 4. double posting with nonmatching sets of page numbers. > 5. indexing of terms mentioned only in passing, with no attendant > discussion. > 6. obvious ignorance of the meaning of basic terms of art. > 7. misalphabetization and inconsistent alphabetization. > 8. In addition to the above, the indexes were replete with typos and cop > yediting mistakes. > > I could give specific examples ad nauseam of all the types of mistakes (I > stopped counting when I got to a hundred). > > These are the elements of my dilemma: > > 1. Do I simply forget about working for this company, since it clearly > manifests such an indifference to quality? > 2. Do I send my resume in but make no reference to the quality issues? > 3. Do I send my resume in and call the publisher's attention to these > mistakes? > 4. Do I write a private letter to the indexer (whose name is given in the > book)? > 5. Do I have an obligation to readers in general? > 6. Which is the higher duty: to say nothing bad about colleagues or to > improve the quality of indexes? > > In the horns, > > Maro Riofrancos > Riofrancos & Co. Indexes > 290 Riverside Drive, 9A > New York, NY 10025 > Voice: 212.864.2121 > Fax: 212.222.2921 > Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:08:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: database help requested In-Reply-To: <199705250056.RAA13270@mx2.u.washington.edu> Sharon: I will do this on list since it might be of interest to others. It seems to be that you are being asked to write help files? That is, when userfield1 (and that is a most poor name....) comes up one should, idealy, be able to ask what is "userfield1" and get a text written by yourself. You can find out what to put into this text by a) interviewing the "creators" of the database (I refrain from using "nerds") or b) learning about how an ACCESS database works and finding out what the links, properties, etc. are for a given field and using that as the basis for your help file. Sounds like the "creators" are determined to keep it all secret and option b) will be the way to go. But you will have to ask them or those who hired them to explain the purpose of the database etc. You should also learn to enter data into it to find out how it works in practical terms. Be prepared, by the way, for an investment of time. If this is a large database nothing will get done all that quickly. But, in my experience, an index is not what is needed, but online help files. However, an online index to access individual help files would be most helpful as a second stage. Look at the way MS structures its online help files for Office97 to get some clues (I worked on Word97 and PowerPoint97, if I can offer an insiders perspective). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:29:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads Do Mi, Thank you for addressing the issue from the readers perspective. I often check the index to find the main discussion on a topic and have difficulties finding what I need when the material is overly fragmented. AFTER reading the main discussion I will often return to the index for the specifics that I need. Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:46:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads Do Mi, You'll get no debate from these quarters! I agree with your position entirely. I like to give the inclusive pages of the main discussion of a topic after the main heading, and use the subheads to break out specific aspects of the main topic. And I do it often. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:46:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma In a message dated 97-05-25 13:43:06 EDT, Maro wrote: << That begs the question. The reason it's a dilemma is that there are several incompatible options, and I'm not sure what my priorities are or ought to be. >> Maro, With all due respects, I think Ann's posting was right on the mark. I think that all of those incompatible opinions are solved when you prioritize your goals. That breaks the logjam of several incompatible options, all of which are important. You will know how you want to proceed when decide whether you need the money badly enough to market yourself to this publisher, knowing the type of work (minimum standards or below standards) that keeps him/her happy, or whether your principles are that important to you that you need to (a) decide not to even market yourself to him/her, or (b) make a point of educating the publisher *and* the indexer. All of the self-righteousness in the world will not do any good. Action is the only thing that makes change. And if you decide to go after this publisher, either to work for him, or to educate him, you're going to spend time doing it .... lots of time. And it won't earn you any money. In business, time is money. If you can afford to do this, fine, do it. If not, you know what you have to do. But if your goal (goes back to that!), is to earn money, run your business as profitably as possible, then you need to decide to pass on this publisher and market yourself to places where you can earn money easily and quickly, and in a satisfying manner. Alternatively, go ahead and work for this publisher and do your best and skip the self-righteousness and education portion of things. Sometimes money drives the choices we make. People who are hungry for work often don't spend a lot of time solving the world's problems, such as those of quality vs quantity, or the internal decisions made by one publisher. I hope you can clarify your feelings and goals and make a choice that is good for you. Pragmatism would have you just pass on this publisher and move on to someplace else to market yourself. Idealism would have you dialogue with this publisher. Good luck in choosing! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:23:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads I would like to take this discussion a step further and ask about subheads once you have the larger batch of pages listed under the main entry. How far down do you break the subheads? For instance.... I'm thinking.... say, for instance, that you have 10 pages on macros broken up into mini sections of around 2 pages each. I'm sorry that I don't have a specific example in mind or in progress, but I've hit it in the past. Would you include each of those mini sections under your main topic, or just leave the main entry? I agree that as a reader I would like to have the larger discussion called out, and I would like the mini discussions called out, also. I don't like to waste time looking through 10 pages for something specific. I'd rather be directed to it as quickly as possible. I personally consider even a 5-page general discussion to be difficult when an additional entry (or additional entries) could send me right to the topic. Now that doesn't mean that I want every little idea broken down under the main entry, but I do appreciate it (again, as a reader) when subtopics of a page or more appear in the index. (I fully realize that we can't do this all the time due to space constraints, I've had to chop my share of indexes lately:D) Any opinions? Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:33:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dick Luxner Subject: Re: Number of indexers Dear Kari, You said: >...I've been thrilled, too, to meet so many professionals who freely >give advice & support. In many (most?) other professions, people get >so busy being one-up on everyone else and they seem to feel so threatened >by new members of the profession. Indexers are different... I, too, am amazed at the wealth of information those with more experience contribute to newcomers. I subscribe to three other lists in the information and fund-raising sectors related to my memberships listed in my signature below. Many of these people make time in their busy days to give advice on subjects like: suggestions for finding lost alumni, Internet sources of hard-to-find real-estate and financial information on prospective donors to non-profits, a conflict-of-interest dilemma of a consultant who is also a board member of the non-profit, software for tracking time and expenses, and the following response from a systems librarian: >...I work on the technical side of a large home-brew commercial >database CD system in an academic library. A huge challenge arises >in getting librarians and patrons to understand why a database that >worked a few minutes ago is not working now. There can be many >reasons that fix themselves and no specific cause can be identified. >I have discovered an explanation that suffices for all these >'I don't know, nothing's changed' situations. > >The Head of Reference called, frantic about a business database that >was not working. One of the top Business professors had come with a >critical information need. The database had worked just minutes >before for a freshman. "What happened?" he asked in desperation. The >Business professor had left in anger about the failure. I went up to >the Reference desk to try the database myself. Of course, it worked >perfectly. > >"I promise it didn't work!" he insisted. > >"I know it didn't," I replied calmly . "You must remember that >these machines have a mission in life. And that mission is to make >you look like an idiot at the worst possible moment. They are >empowered with a 'Critical Detector'. No matter which machine the >professor used, the database would not have worked. Now he is gone >and I am here. You felt bad enough when it didn't work, but now how >do you feel?" > >"Like an idiot," he answered quietly. > >"See?" I continued. "Fortunately, we are aware of this mission, so >the machine's attempt to make you look like an idiot," I looked at >the machine and spoke sharply "does NOT work!" I turned again to the >librarian and concluded, "Once it realizes this, it cooperates more >readily." > >As I turned to leave, the librarian smiled in relief. Another step >in the battle for understanding had been taken. > >Debra Lords, dlords@library.utah.edu >Database Coordinator, ACLIS - Micro Group >Marriott Library, University of Utah P.S. We also contribute our (in)famous humor for the weekend, e.g. "Insanity is hereditary. You get it from your children." - Sam Levenson Dick __________________________________________________ Dick Luxner, MLS - Fundraising Research Consultant PO Box 277 - Stow, Massachusetts 01775 508-562-1288 - dluxner@ma.ultranet.com Member APRA NEDRA ASIS SLA ASI ALA NENON __________________________________________________ Neither can his mind be thought to be in tune, whose words do jarre; Nor his reason in frame, whose sentence is preposterous. - Ben Jonson, 1641 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:52:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads Leslie, My idea of perfection is to have the block of pages listed as the general ref following the main entry, AND subheads for the various blocks of information in those pages called out separately. Now .... if there is no way to create subheads, or it is indeed a general discussion, then there will be no subheads. But sometimes, as in your example, the text lends itself to subheads also, and I like to call them out separately. Of course, if there are publisher constraints on length of the index, this becomes impossible. But for me it is the best-case scenario. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:29:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads Leslie wrote: >I would like to take this discussion a step further and ask about subheads >once you have the larger batch of pages listed under the main entry. >How far down do you break the subheads? For instance.... I'm thinking.... >say, for instance, that you have 10 pages on macros broken up into mini >sections of around 2 pages each. Yes! Depending on the length of the general span (and whether I'm in the process of chopping the index :-/) I would also make subheads for these subtopics (which, please note, may or may not follow exactly the subtitles in the text!). A problem I often run into: The general span is too long to leave without also having subheads. But the material is broken into little itty-bitty pieces, four or five to a page, that don't clump easily into bigger sections. So I'm stuck with either a long span with no breakdowns (unacceptable) or a heading that looks like this: Punctuation, 10-30 apostrophes, 10 colons, 10 commas, 10 periods, 10-11 quotation marks, 11 question marks, 11 semicolons, 11 etc...... Also very annoying, and the kind of apparent overanalysis that usually flags a poor index. A situation with no good solution; I usually pick the second one in the interests of more information rather than less. What do other people do in this kind of situation? Also--let's please remember that any subheads that are important topics in themselves should also be main headings. If the reader is interested specifically in that topic, they will look it up under itself. So with subhead analysis, we're looking at how to break down the information in the main heading efficiently. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:13:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads In-Reply-To: <199705260233.UAA24904@Rt66.com> We had this discussion at Lori Lathrop's Indexing Skills Workshop last November. A rule in Lori's "Tips for Creating a Great Index" reads, "Place page references (locators) with the lowest-level entries; if a primary entry has secondary entries, use page references with the secondary entries only....[more of the same about tertiary-level entries]." Lori agreed that the only exception she would make to that rule would be the instance brought up in the previous couple of posts: where the main heading gets the locators for the entire discussion (or perhaps a chapter), and the subheads break out the specific topics within that discussion. This makes sense, and so far, it's pretty consistent with the current thread here. But what about a situation where the main discussion of a topic can be broken into subheads, and there are also references to other aspects of that topic scattered throughout the rest of the book? something general, 102-115 something specific, 109-113 another specific thing, 102-105 something else specific, 74 ..... (the rest of the specifics within 102-115) Obviously the topic on p. 74 will probably also be a main head. But I think the concern here is that some readers will assume that the only place the topic is covered is on pp. 102-115, and never suspect that there's another piece on p. 74, especially if it's buried in a long list of subs. I can see two options. Either bring the extra locators up to the main heading as well, or leave the locator off the main head altogether. Are there other possibilities? And what would others do here? ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:02:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: page numbering--heads and subheads In a message dated 97-05-25 22:33:33 EDT, Do Mi writes: << So I'm stuck with either a long span with no breakdowns (unacceptable) or a heading that looks like this: Punctuation, 10-30 apostrophes, 10 colons, 10 commas, 10 periods, 10-11 quotation marks, 11 question marks, 11 semicolons, 11 etc...... >> In this situation I might consider Punctuation, 10-30. See also specific forms of punctuation Then I would enter each specific entry as a main entry. On the other hand, I would wait to see if I get other entries for the forms of punctuation. If I have several locators for each subentry, I do not worry that I have included all those page numbers in the first place. This is one instance where I save my editing 'til the end. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing (was once LLF Editorial Services) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:53:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Multiple indexes I have question for readers, and indexers, of computer books. I am indexing an 800-page book about Netscape. The first 650 pages are about using the various components of the product. The last 150 pages contain nothing but Internet addresses and brief descriptions of interesting Net resources that the user can visit using the product. Here's my question: would it be useful to put the index for that last chapter in a separate index, by itself? The index for that chapter alone runs for 12 two-column pages. In "Indexing Books," Nancy Mulvaney says: " Multiple indexes can be useful with discrete types of entries that can stand alone in their own index. Quite often a secondary index is a specialized subset of the general subject index. The different indexes are designed for different types of users, with one group having more specialized subject knowledge than the other group." She goes on to say that of course each index should have a title, and should refer to the other index in an introductory note. The reason I want to do this is because the 12 pages of Internet sites, spread throughout the 35 pages of the whole index, are (to me) distracting. I'm thinking that people look in the index for two very different reasons: to find places to go, and to find out how to do things. Of course, of the down side, pulling out the Net resource entries eliminates any chance of serendipity for the reader who is searching for "Close button" and comes across "Clothing optional." :-) What is your opinion of having two indexes, with introductory notes (per Mulvaney) of "Following the General Index is a Net Resources Index" and Preceding the Net Resources Index is the General Index" ? Thanks, Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:48:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Ethical Dilemma In-Reply-To: <199705260404.XAA07186@mixcom.mixcom.com> Maro, I agree with what Ann and Janet have said, and I'd like to add a comment about assumptions about the publisher. When I publisher allows crummy indexes in some of their books, what can we conclude? Not much, I think. The author might have been willing to pay only peanuts for the index and gotten a very inexperienced indexer. The indexer might have been required to produce the index overnight. The editor might be very inexperienced and just not know what to look for in an index. My point is that I don't think you can assume that the press *doesn't want* good indexes just because you've seen some trashy indexes from them. So how much does it cost you to make your pitch to this press? If they're interested in giving you a try and can meet your price, then what difference does it make that they've settled for some bad indexing in the past? If you are otherwise interested in this client, I say go for it. Good luck. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:49:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Wilson Subject: Re: database help requested Here's another consideration. This "index" you're creating sounds like a typical data dictionary and I assume it's to be used by both functional (bus analysts and users) and technical types (programmers, database admins, system admins, etc). I'm not familiar with MACREX or CINDEX yet, but leave room for entries covering the uses of the generic fields (e.g., user field 1 actually used for pay rate); this is apparently off-the-shelf software that the company doesn't want to customize, i.e., they want to retain the vanilla version to make it easier to upgrade to later versions. Also, leave room for a description of the uses of each generic field (i.e., those fields whose field names, literals, and/or labels don't describe the actual use) and a data type indicator (e.g., alphanumeric with valid values 1, 2, 3, a, b, and c). If these fields appear on some user screen, then you might want to look into adding an entry for the screen name on which a given field appears. Incidentally, much of this information ought to be in some documentation that came with the software (??). Just my two cents. Good luck. John Wilson Atlanta, GA jwilson999@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:35:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall Hi, all - Anybody around? I've just hit a wall in my final index edit--I was just describing it to another idexer--that wall where suddenly all your words look like an unrealted bunch or crap that will never, EVER become an index? That wall? Anyway, just taking a little break, looking for some brain-restoring chit-chat (and I'm have a little snack, and will go outside for 5 or 10 minutes--those are the things that let my brain relax and get back to work). Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:57:37 -0500 Reply-To: jspool@uie.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Jared M. 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Contact the Tewksbury Holiday Inn (508-640-9000) before June 11th to reserve your room. ____________ To Register By Fax: (508) 975-5353 By Email: Courses@uie.com By Web: http://www.uie.com By Phone: (800) 588-8955 or (508) 975-4343 By Mail: User Interface Engineering 800 Turnpike Street, #101 North Andover, MA 01845 ___________ Order Form ___ Yes! I can't wait to attend Product Usability For Documentation Professionals in Tewksbury, MA on June 25th & 26th, 1997 -- $620.00 per person or $545.00 each for 4 or more. I understand that if I register before June 11th, I will receive a full year's subscription to Eye For Design. ___ Maybe. I'd like to see the eight-page brochure which describes the details of this course. Please fax it to the number below. ___ No, I can't attend this course. But I am interested in hearing about future events. Name: ______________________________________________ Title: ______________________________________________ Email: ______________________________________________ Organization: ______________________________________ Address: ___________________________________________ City/State/Zip/Country: ____________________________ Daytime Phone: _____________________________________ Fax Number: _______________________________________ <6/97-IL> Payment Information: ___ Check enclosed (Payable to User Interface Engineering) ___ NET 15 Purchase Order # _________ (PO must be faxed with registration) ___ Mastercard ___ Visa ___ American Express ___ Discover Account #: __________________________________________ Expiration Date: ____________________________________ Substitions may be made at any time. We will accept cancellations made two weeks before the course, subject to a $40 service charge. Confirmed registrants who do not attend or cancel within two weeks of the course will be elligible for enrollment in future courses at no additional cost. All cancellations must be made in writing. Seating is limited -- register today! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:25:33 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Book/let on indexing computer books Hi all, There are very often detailed discussions on the list about issues in the indexing of books about various aspects of computing. I for one would be interested in a publication on this subject. Perhaps it could be done in the same series as Hazel Bell's on Indexing Biographies. I haven't seen that one, but believe it was published by the SI (UK) or someone else in the UK. What do other people think? Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:00:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma Is this indexer a member of ASI? (Don't tell me who it is. I probably don't know them anyway.) On Sun, 25 May 1997 13:40:16 -0400 Maro Riofrancos writes: >That begs the question. The reason it's a dilemma is that there are >several >incompatible options, and I'm not sure what my priorities are or ought >to >be. > >Maro Riofrancos >Riofrancos & Co. Indexes >290 Riverside Drive, 9A >New York, NY 10025 >Voice: 212.864.2121 >Fax: 212.222.2921 >Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Virginia G. McHenry [SMTP:vmchenry@IX.NETCOM.COM] >Sent: Sunday, May 25, 1997 12:32 PM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma > >Mario, > >My son, the soon to be graduate of psychology, recently gave me some >excellent advice I will pass on - "What is your goal?":-} The answer >to >that question frequently answers ethical dilemmas for me. Ginny >McHenry > > >Maro Riofrancos wrote: >> >> I was considering trying to get work from a major publisher of >computer >> books. Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of indexes to >their >> books. >> >> I was stunned by what I found. One of the indexes was easily one of >the >> worst indexes I have ever come across in my 25 years as an indexer, >the >> other was just very bad. >> >> The kinds of mistakes I found covered the entire range of >possibilities: >> >> 1. missing page references. >> 2. important topics covered extensively in the text entirely missing >from >> the index. >> 3. exactly synonymous terms indexed separately with no >cross-references >> between the synonyms, so that each of the synonyms ended up with >different >> page numbers. >> 4. double posting with nonmatching sets of page numbers. >> 5. indexing of terms mentioned only in passing, with no attendant >> discussion. >> 6. obvious ignorance of the meaning of basic terms of art. >> 7. misalphabetization and inconsistent alphabetization. >> 8. In addition to the above, the indexes were replete with typos and >cop >> yediting mistakes. >> >> I could give specific examples ad nauseam of all the types of >mistakes (I >> stopped counting when I got to a hundred). >> >> These are the elements of my dilemma: >> >> 1. Do I simply forget about working for this company, since it >clearly >> manifests such an indifference to quality? >> 2. Do I send my resume in but make no reference to the quality >issues? >> 3. Do I send my resume in and call the publisher's attention to >these >> mistakes? >> 4. Do I write a private letter to the indexer (whose name is given >in the >> book)? >> 5. Do I have an obligation to readers in general? >> 6. Which is the higher duty: to say nothing bad about colleagues or >to >> improve the quality of indexes? >> >> In the horns, >> >> Maro Riofrancos >> Riofrancos & Co. Indexes >> 290 Riverside Drive, 9A >> New York, NY 10025 >> Voice: 212.864.2121 >> Fax: 212.222.2921 >> Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:58:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple indexes Ann, In an ideal world, your idea sounds like a good one. It make sense to me to put those resources in one index. But, I come more and more to believe that the average reader may never know that there are two indexes. With a note referring to the fact that there are two indexes appearing only on the first page, and most/many index users heading to specific alphabetical spots in the index, I think that index users never or seldom notice that there are two indexes and that they are missing out on a whole section of information. For that reason, I would keep the information in a single index. I might do something like this Net Resources, 150-180. See also specific resources or some such thing. Good luck. It sounds like you're really pounding away at this one. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:02:28 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Multiple indexes Ann, As a frequent user of indices and of Netscape I think a separate index is a wonderful idea. You are right, when I am trying to figure out how to add a signature to my email I don't particularly want to deal with a directory of wonderful web pages although if the answer to my question or an example is on a web page I would like to know that. BTW, do you know how to add a signature in Netscape? I haven't been able to locate that information in the current book and have received no response from the techies at Netscape - seems the support help feature of most software packages leaves a bit to be desired. :-> Thanks. Ginny Ann Norcross wrote: > > I have question for readers, and indexers, of computer books. I am > indexing an 800-page book about Netscape. The first 650 pages are about > using the various components of the product. The last 150 pages contain > nothing but Internet addresses and brief descriptions of interesting Net > resources that the user can visit using the product. > > Here's my question: would it be useful to put the index for that last > chapter in a separate index, by itself? The index for that chapter > alone runs for 12 two-column pages. > > In "Indexing Books," Nancy Mulvaney says: > > " Multiple indexes can be useful with discrete types of entries that can > stand alone in their own index. Quite often a secondary index is a > specialized subset of the general subject index. The different indexes > are designed for different types of users, with one group having more > specialized subject knowledge than the other group." > > She goes on to say that of course each index should have a title, and > should refer to the other index in an introductory note. > > The reason I want to do this is because the 12 pages of Internet sites, > spread throughout the 35 pages of the whole index, are (to me) > distracting. I'm thinking that people look in the index for two very > different reasons: to find places to go, and to find out how to do > things. Of course, of the down side, pulling out the Net resource > entries eliminates any chance of serendipity for the reader who is > searching for "Close button" and comes across "Clothing optional." :-) > > What is your opinion of having two indexes, with introductory notes (per > Mulvaney) of "Following the General Index is a Net Resources Index" and > Preceding the Net Resources Index is the General Index" ? > > Thanks, > Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:13:06 +0000 Reply-To: lbindex@picard.omn.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee Ellen Brower Organization: Brower Indexing Services Subject: Colorado, Indexers in I'd like to know if you are in North-Central Colorado (North of Denver) and actively indexing. Purpose: collaboration on upcoming multi-volume history project. Lee Brower Loveland, Colorado 970 663-6833 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:54:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Multiple indexes In a message dated 97-05-27 09:34:47 EDT, you write: > > What is your opinion of having two indexes, with introductory notes (per > Mulvaney) of "Following the General Index is a Net Resources Index" and > Preceding the Net Resources Index is the General Index" ? > This seems like one situation that would be perfect for two indexes. In addition to the header note, one thing that might be effective is to have the index pages repeat the header note on each page of the index at the bottom. "A Net Resources index, listing each Web site and internet resource by name, follows this general index." at the bottom of each page, in italics or something. I have done this kind of repeated note on each page with software-related print indexes where the majority of actual information on how to use the software is online, and the print piece is just an overview. Another idea is to have running headers and footers that repeat the idea "General index" and "Net Resources index." I think people miss header notes, so every clue you can give them helps. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:03:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Multiple indexes Ann, As a person who might read a book like the one you are indexing I would, as a reader, strongly prefer two separate indexes. It really does seem to me that from your description that you could almost create two separate books from the "one" that you are indexing. There are certainly two very different and distinct subject matters. I (personally) would probably never look at the internet sites portion of that book and would not want references to them needlessly complicating and enlarging the index to the information that I would want to read. Happy Indexing! Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall I know exactly what you mean, Ann! (That wall when the words become meaningless...) Happens to everybody. The only thing to do at that point is take a break and talk to someone else, as you're doing; then get back to it and trust yourself. Trust that the entries you made before you hit the wall were indeed good ones. Go through the familiar steps of editing. You'll come out the other side. Good luck! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:51:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall On hitting the wall ..... I clear my head at those times by going out into the garden and checking on how my growing things are doing, watering, sprinkling, observing the roses, the hummingbirds, etc. Looking into the distance, ie, the blue sky, the distant mountains, is wonderful for relaxing computer-weary eyes, too. A refreshing 15 minute break like that does wonders! (for me, at least) Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:45:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma Yes, sad to say. Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive, 9A New York, NY 10025 Voice: 212.864.2121 Fax: 212.222.2921 Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com -----Original Message----- From: Suellen Kasoff [SMTP:lserve@JUNO.COM] Sent: Monday, May 26, 1997 11:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma Is this indexer a member of ASI? (Don't tell me who it is. I probably don't know them anyway.) On Sun, 25 May 1997 13:40:16 -0400 Maro Riofrancos writes: >That begs the question. The reason it's a dilemma is that there are >several >incompatible options, and I'm not sure what my priorities are or ought >to >be. > >Maro Riofrancos >Riofrancos & Co. Indexes >290 Riverside Drive, 9A >New York, NY 10025 >Voice: 212.864.2121 >Fax: 212.222.2921 >Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Virginia G. McHenry [SMTP:vmchenry@IX.NETCOM.COM] >Sent: Sunday, May 25, 1997 12:32 PM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma > >Mario, > >My son, the soon to be graduate of psychology, recently gave me some >excellent advice I will pass on - "What is your goal?":-} The answer >to >that question frequently answers ethical dilemmas for me. Ginny >McHenry > > >Maro Riofrancos wrote: >> >> I was considering trying to get work from a major publisher of >computer >> books. Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of indexes to >their >> books. >> >> I was stunned by what I found. One of the indexes was easily one of >the >> worst indexes I have ever come across in my 25 years as an indexer, >the >> other was just very bad. >> >> The kinds of mistakes I found covered the entire range of >possibilities: >> >> 1. missing page references. >> 2. important topics covered extensively in the text entirely missing >from >> the index. >> 3. exactly synonymous terms indexed separately with no >cross-references >> between the synonyms, so that each of the synonyms ended up with >different >> page numbers. >> 4. double posting with nonmatching sets of page numbers. >> 5. indexing of terms mentioned only in passing, with no attendant >> discussion. >> 6. obvious ignorance of the meaning of basic terms of art. >> 7. misalphabetization and inconsistent alphabetization. >> 8. In addition to the above, the indexes were replete with typos and >cop >> yediting mistakes. >> >> I could give specific examples ad nauseam of all the types of >mistakes (I >> stopped counting when I got to a hundred). >> >> These are the elements of my dilemma: >> >> 1. Do I simply forget about working for this company, since it >clearly >> manifests such an indifference to quality? >> 2. Do I send my resume in but make no reference to the quality >issues? >> 3. Do I send my resume in and call the publisher's attention to >these >> mistakes? >> 4. Do I write a private letter to the indexer (whose name is given >in the >> book)? >> 5. Do I have an obligation to readers in general? >> 6. Which is the higher duty: to say nothing bad about colleagues or >to >> improve the quality of indexes? >> >> In the horns, >> >> Maro Riofrancos >> Riofrancos & Co. Indexes >> 290 Riverside Drive, 9A >> New York, NY 10025 >> Voice: 212.864.2121 >> Fax: 212.222.2921 >> Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:52:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Multiple indexes >> On Mon, 26 May 1997 20:53:09 -0400, >> Ann Norcross said: A> I have question for readers, and indexers, of computer books. I am indexing A> an 800-page book about Netscape. The first 650 pages are about using the A> various components of the product. The last 150 pages contain nothing but A> Internet addresses and brief descriptions of interesting Net resources that A> the user can visit using the product. A> Here's my question: would it be useful to put the index for that last A> chapter in a separate index, by itself? The index for that chapter alone A> runs for 12 two-column pages. Good idea. The book "Secrets of the Net Super-Searchers" (yeah, I know, I didn't make up the title :) does this, and it's quite useful. The index is only about two pages long. If it were any longer, I'd wish for something like a keyword-at-line or keyword-in-context index. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:12:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Multiple indexes Thanks for all the feedback on this question of multiple indexes (more is welcome, too). I did indeed finish the big book on time, and sent it off. As another indexer pointed out to me, it is WAY too late to introduce such a stylistic change in this particular book, but I think I will approach the publisher with this idea for future books. I would like to use quotes from the posts here on INDEX-L as part of my presentation to them; I will contact each poster offline to ask for permission first, and I don't have to use names, if people prefer that. I can just say, "Certain well-known indexers..." :-) I was thinking of having the introductory notes as running headers or footers, so I was glad to see Jan's suggestion; I've never really understood how introductory notes could be of much use to the reader, but that seemed like a heretical thought so I never said anything! Thanks all, Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:24:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: > > On hitting the wall ..... > > I clear my head at those times by going out into the garden and checking on > how my growing things are doing, watering, sprinkling, observing the roses, > the hummingbirds, etc. Looking into the distance, ie, the blue sky, the > distant mountains, is wonderful for relaxing computer-weary eyes, too. I went out and walked barefoot around my back yard, in a light rain, and said hello to all my trees. Then I came in and kicked some index butt! A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:13:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall Ann, I've got 160 *more* lines to cut before dawn, but I'm off very shortly to play tennis. Probably no possums will clutter my path. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:38:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Corrington Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall Ann - When I get to the point where I just want to hit the wall - I jump in the swimming pool!!!! Just 5-10 minutes works wonders. In Arizona, you can do this "most" of the time too. Paul Corrington Corringtin Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:54:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Embedded page counts. How do you determine the page count when working on an embedded index? Suppose you print the document and generate 100 pages. You index from the 100 pages (using CINDEX, for instance) then embed the tags and return the file to the client. The client prints it with a different font and only generates 95 pages. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:49:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. Where did you get the document from in the first place, if not the client? If you are using the same program, whether word processor or DTP program, and the same font as the client did, there will of course be no discrepancy in page breaks. If you use a different program and/or font, then you use hard page breaks for the document you print out, using the client-supplied hard copy to determine the location of the breaks. Of course you'd have to adjust either the font type or size or the paper size setting in order to make the text fit in the pages you print out. If the client did not supply hard copy, and you use a different program and/or font, then you'd have no idea where the page breaks are in the first place, and you wouldn't be able to type the page numbers for your index entries into Cindex or any other program. But the implication of your question is that the client supplied the original document into which to embed the index. If that's the case, I assume you must have the same program the client uses, otherwise how could you embed the index in the "original document"?. So what's the problem? Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive, 9A New York, NY 10025 Voice: 212.864.2121 Fax: 212.222.2921 Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com -----Original Message----- From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 8:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Embedded page counts. How do you determine the page count when working on an embedded index? Suppose you print the document and generate 100 pages. You index from the 100 pages (using CINDEX, for instance) then embed the tags and return the file to the client. The client prints it with a different font and only generates 95 pages. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. At 09:49 PM 5/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >But the implication of your question is that the client supplied the >original document into which to embed the index. If that's the case, I >assume you must have the same program the client uses, otherwise how could >you embed the index in the "original document"?. So what's the problem? Let me rephrase the question. Suppose I count 100 pages and the client counts 95. What are some possible explanations for such a discrepancy? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pat Fowler Subject: Water cooler chat: hitting the wall Kari Bero wrote: >I've been thrilled, too, to meet so many professionals who freely give advice >& support. In many (most?) other professions, people get so busy being one- >up on everyone else and they seem to feel so threatened by new members of the >profession. Indexers are different. We're definitely a rare breed. 8-) I would really like to second this. I am a newbe indexer ( I've now done 3 books ) and have found this list invaluable. I have received so much advice and encouragement from many of you. I hope someday I can pass along advice to someone new as well. And to Ann Norcross: Thanks for starting the water cooler chat about hitting the wall. I was beginning to think that it only happened to me. I have experienced that wall on each of the 3 indexes that I have done. It is encouraging to know that it happens to other people too. It seems to help to just put the index aside for a while and do other things. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ Pat Fowler Pat Fowler Professional Indexing 2009 Oak Creek Circle Sherman, Texas 75090 (903) 893-6692 email psfowler@texoma.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:00:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. Without knowing the program you used, it's hard to tell. If you're using Microsoft Word, for instance, when you hide the index field codes and their contents, the embedded index does not affect the visible size of the document. When you show the embedded index, however, the embedded index entries do take up space and this bumps everything down, which can add pages to the document. This is a stupid design oversight on the part of Word's programmers, but that's the way it is. Is it possible that you sent the publisher the document with the embedded index showing, and they hid the index for their page count? Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive, 9A New York, NY 10025 Voice: 212.864.2121 Fax: 212.222.2921 Email: riomaro@riofrancos.com -----Original Message----- From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 10:46 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. At 09:49 PM 5/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >But the implication of your question is that the client supplied the >original document into which to embed the index. If that's the case, I >assume you must have the same program the client uses, otherwise how could >you embed the index in the "original document"?. So what's the problem? Let me rephrase the question. Suppose I count 100 pages and the client counts 95. What are some possible explanations for such a discrepancy? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:33:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In-Reply-To: <199705280303.UAA11054@mx2.u.washington.edu> Or is the receiver using Word97, which will generate different page counts (i.e., pagination) than Word 6.0/7.0, for example? What I have learned is that Word97 is quite incompatable with earlier versions for indexing purposes. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:07:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall When I hit the wall, I don't see a garbled index so much as I see garbled words. I lose my ability to recognize correct spelling, and the most common words look ridiculous. I've had times when "of" looked so wrong I didn't know what to do. And today the "wall word" was "control." I had to make sure I was referencing controls properly and suddenly the word looked completely wrong. I almost had to check a dictionary to be sure. Anyway, I sympathize with the syndrome and taking a break is the only cure. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:24:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Multiple indexes I'd be most careful about making a decision to have more than one index. No matter what steps are taken to let readers know there are two indexes, some will miss that information. In addition, having two indexes means that we impose an additional task on the readers. Not only must they find the information they are looking for in the index, they much first find the correct index. And that can be a pain in the gesundtheit. (I know, I speak from personal experience.) After all, if we are indexing the **subjects** of the URLs in the index, why should those subject entries be segregated from the rest of the subject matter of the book? That flies against all we know about the importance of having a single index. (Or am I missing something here? I certainly would have problems with actual URLs appearing in the index. But why should they, if the index **points** to them?) The argument for separate indexes doesn't seem to me to make any more sense the the argument for having separate name/place/subject indexes, which most of us agree is inappropriate. If it is, can someone explain the conceptual difference to me. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:17:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Multiple indexes At 01:24 AM 5/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'd be most careful about making a decision to have more than one index. No >matter what steps are taken to let readers know there are two indexes, some >will miss that information. In addition, having two indexes means that we >impose an additional task on the readers. Not only must they find the >information they are looking for in the index, they much first find the >correct index. And that can be a pain in the gesundtheit. (I know, I speak >from personal experience.) I'm a rank newbie at indexing, but in my defense I do have a decade of experience as an academic librarian who often teaches readers to use all kinds of indexes. All of this is only my personal experience, but a lot of readers must be reminded to use even a simple index in the back of a monograph. The level of work and its readers should guide the decision to use more than one index. (I have, in fact, sent books back to the jobber if I felt that the index was too poor to cover the work adequately.) As an example, I wouldn't stick multiple indexes in an introduction to a subject, but books for scholars and professionals already familiar in the field should have more complex indexing--they get just as frustrated by too little indexing and cross referencing, as general readers get with too much. >After all, if we are indexing the **subjects** of the URLs in the index, why >should those subject entries be segregated from the rest of the subject >matter of the book? That flies against all we know about the importance of >having a single index. (Or am I missing something here? I certainly would >have problems with actual URLs appearing in the index. But why should they, >if the index **points** to them?) Are the URLs scattered throughout the chapters and in the text? In the index, are you placing them together under a heading such as "URLs"? Or, are you listing them twice--once under subject and again under URLs? If the URLs are scattered by subject throughout the index and the reader must flip back and forth between the text and index to find gather a group of them... I find that frustrating when I come across it. >The argument for separate indexes doesn't seem to me to make any more sense >the the argument for having separate name/place/subject indexes, which most >of us agree is inappropriate. If it is, can someone explain the conceptual >difference to me. I'm afraid I'm still yacking about the reader level and intent of the book... >Fred Leise >Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services Don't fry the newbie! Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:19:26 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In-Reply-To: <199705280336.VAA11530@Rt66.com> Dick, This seems like a good bet to me: >Or is the receiver using Word97, which will generate different page counts >(i.e., pagination) than Word 6.0/7.0, for example? What I have learned is >that Word97 is quite incompatable with earlier versions for indexing >purposes. Paul D. Buell > My recent experience was that (1) when the publisher sent me the documents in Word97 format, I couldn't even open them in Word 7.0, (2) that if the publisher saved the docs in Word 7.0 format, I had no trouble opening and indexing them, and (3) they got a *higher* page count than I did. I didn't argue. Actually, it just occurs to me that maybe I should have. Typically my page rate is for *typeset* (ie, proof) pages, and I suspect that when the document that I indexed flows into Pagemaker or whatever (and when figures, etc, have been added), the actual page count will likely be somewhat higher. Oh, well...live and learn. As far as the page numbers you use when indexing in Cindex or Macrex (prior to embedding), they are pretty much irrelevant to the final product, except insofar as you use them to insert the tags. Once the tags are embedded, the page breaks can migrate wherever they want to, given figure insertions, etc. On the other hand, if the publisher is actually using a different font to figure the page count that determines how much you get paid, I'd cry foul! It sounds like you need to have a serious conversation with the managing editor and come up with an acceptable (to you, since it's your livelihood in question) agreement about what constitutes a "page". Good luck! ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In a message dated 97-05-27 21:36:58 EDT, you write: > How do you determine the page count when working on an embedded index? > Suppose you print the document and generate 100 pages. You index from the > 100 pages (using CINDEX, for instance) then embed the tags and return the > file to the client. The client prints it with a different font and only > generates 95 pages. Dick, Actually, I don't charge by the page when I embed index entries in MS Word or FrameMaker; I charge by the hour. (This is mainly because the clients are more likely to be technical writers or corporations, who are used to paying by the hour and not by the page.) But if I were to want to determine the page count, assuming that the client sent me the files electronically, I would count them based on my computer and my printer. If the client sent me a hard copy, I would use the number of the pages that they sent me. If I printed out 100 pages and then returned the files to the client and they reformatted it so that it's 95 pages, that's up to them. But I still count it as 100 pages. Peg Mauer Communication Link ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In a message dated 97-05-27 23:23:41 EDT, you write: > Let me rephrase the question. Suppose I count 100 pages and the client > counts 95. What are some possible explanations for such a discrepancy? Ah! This is a different question! I've had this problem with clients, but not necessarily anything to do with embedded index entries. I've had clients that insisted that the manual had 95 indexable pages, while I felt strongly that it had 100 or 110 indexable pages. (they didn't count pages with full page illustrations, maps, partial page, etc.) That was with a publisher who was paying $3.00/page, so I didn't think it was worth squabbling about; I gave in to their page count because I liked the kind of books that I was indexing for them. Peg Mauer Communication Link ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:41:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In-Reply-To: <199705281429.HAA28881@mx5.u.washington.edu> Actually, Word97 doesn't actually convert to Word 6.0/7.0 but creates an RTF file than can be read by Word 6.0/7.0. This can create real problems if there is lots of special formatting in a document. Word97 got slammed for this in the literature, by the way. It is an imperial pain. I say to members of the list, watch this problem if you are using Word. MicroSoft strikes again. Paul D. Buell On Wed, 28 May 1997, Caroline Parks wrote: > Dick, > > This seems like a good bet to me: > > >Or is the receiver using Word97, which will generate different page counts > >(i.e., pagination) than Word 6.0/7.0, for example? What I have learned is > >that Word97 is quite incompatable with earlier versions for indexing > >purposes. Paul D. Buell > > > > My recent experience was that (1) when the publisher sent me the documents > in Word97 format, I couldn't even open them in Word 7.0, (2) that if the > publisher saved the docs in Word 7.0 format, I had no trouble opening and > indexing them, and (3) they got a *higher* page count than I did. I didn't > argue. > > Actually, it just occurs to me that maybe I should have. Typically my page > rate is for *typeset* (ie, proof) pages, and I suspect that when the > document that I indexed flows into Pagemaker or whatever (and when figures, > etc, have been added), the actual page count will likely be somewhat > higher. Oh, well...live and learn. > > As far as the page numbers you use when indexing in Cindex or Macrex (prior > to embedding), they are pretty much irrelevant to the final product, except > insofar as you use them to insert the tags. Once the tags are embedded, > the page breaks can migrate wherever they want to, given figure insertions, > etc. > > On the other hand, if the publisher is actually using a different font to > figure the page count that determines how much you get paid, I'd cry foul! > It sounds like you need to have a serious conversation with the managing > editor and come up with an acceptable (to you, since it's your livelihood > in question) agreement about what constitutes a "page". > > Good luck! > ____________________________ > > Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence > Indexing and Editorial Services > > Tijeras, NM > 505-286-2738 > caroline@rt66.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:45:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In a message dated 97-05-27 21:36:36 EDT, infodex@MINDSPRING.COM (Richard Evans) writes: > > How do you determine the page count when working on an embedded index? > Suppose you print the document and generate 100 pages. You index from the > 100 pages (using CINDEX, for instance) then embed the tags and return the > file to the client. The client prints it with a different font and only > generates 95 pages. > I never charge by the page for embedding - there are too many factors involved. Charge by the entry or by the hour. I prefer hourly, as so many things can go wrong, and there is troubleshooting to do at the end. Files get corrupted, files won't compile properly, embedded tags get moved or deleted, page-ranging bookmarks have naming problems, and the one you have noted -- the printer font and the targeted printer settings change how the book comes out. Graphics are another question - I receive many files without the graphics in place, so I have no idea how big the book is in real life. It doesn't matter if you are using the same exact program and version of the program -- if you have a different font selected, or if you have a different printer driver selected, you will come out with a different book length. A lot of publishers do not use "hard" page breaks, so you get a different pagination every time you change machines. Whether you have hidden text showing or turned off can affect it. The biggest time drain is that, to do a proper edit, you must go back and edit each embedded tag, as the index is only a snapshot of the document at a particular time. Otherwise you lose your edits the next time the index is compiled. It takes forever to do this properly, much longer than the normal editing cycle. One last thing -- always compile the index on the same machine that broke the pages, especially if you are dealing with Word. I have seen situations where the font was the same, the printer settings were the same, the right drivers were installed, hard page breaks were used, and the index still came out with wrong page numbers. You cannot trust it to come out the same on a different machine, not with the way Word repaginates. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:04:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Multiple indexes >> On Wed, 28 May 1997 01:24:10 -0400 (EDT), >> Locatelli@aol.com said: F> The argument for separate indexes doesn't seem to me to make any more sense F> the the argument for having separate name/place/subject indexes, which most F> of us agree is inappropriate. It depends on the subject matter. For example, Emacs is a programming environment/religion often mistaken for a text editor (I love it, so I get to make fun of it). One Emacs motto was "Over 400 easy-to-use commands". The Emacs user's guide has three separate indexes, and this division has made it much easier to find things. The guide provides: * a key index holding the many keyboard macros which make extensive use of escape and control keys, * a function index describing routines you can call interactively or from your own programs, and * a concept index showing where to find descriptions of fundamental Emacs things like "buffer" or "macro". If they jammed all this stuff into one index, it would be a lot less usable. This may be an exception, but IMO it applies to a lot of computer stuff. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:33:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Kniss Subject: Re: Multiple indexes In a message dated 97-05-27 09:36:37 EDT, you write: << What is your opinion of having two indexes, with introductory notes (per Mulvaney) of "Following the General Index is a Net Resources Index" and Preceding the Net Resources Index is the General Index" ? >> I seem to remember reading in an issue of Keywords or the Indexer (some time during this past year) of a usability study that reviewed the value of multiple indexes through experimental testing performed on users. Unfortunately I can't put my fingers on it right now . . . maybe someone else can? Anyhow, the bottom line from what I remember, was that the "general user" is typically unaware of the existence of multiple indexes, and rarely will look beyond the index they happen to turn to. Hence, the recommendation toward the preparation of one index verses multiple ones. Hope this is helpful, wish I could locate the article! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:48:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: backups on Internet For those who travel a lot or have no safe offsite storage space for disk= s, a local computer mag in the Bay Area just ran an article on backing up files to a site on the Internet. The cost is about $120 a year for varyin= g amounts of space/services. The four companies offering this service are: = DataSaver Online Backup Service www.datasaver.com (New York area only?) McAfee WebStor and Personal Vault www.mcafee.com 408/988-3832 netTape www.sgii.com 412/415-5200 Connected Online Backup www.connected.com 800/353-3078 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:57:43 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Multiple indexes Yes! The only real argument I have seen for one index has been that readers fail to note that there is more than one index. This reminds me of current television (which I despise) practices of catering to the lowest denominator. If people can't read what makes you think they will be reading the book in the first place? I think Karl's point - that people who can and do read but who are unfamiliar with the subject initially need help in segregating the subject matter makes much more sense. Sans publisher restrictions a thorough index or indices acts as a learning tool. The other thing I think should be addressed is the audience. If I have gotten anything out of the numerous books on indexing I have read, it is that the index is a tool to help the reader. Sometimes what is "right" and what is "wrong" must give way to what works. Just my 2 cents worth. Karl E. Vogel wrote: > > >> On Wed, 28 May 1997 01:24:10 -0400 (EDT), > >> Locatelli@aol.com said: > > F> The argument for separate indexes doesn't seem to me to make any more sense > F> the the argument for having separate name/place/subject indexes, which most > F> of us agree is inappropriate. > > It depends on the subject matter. For example, Emacs is a programming > environment/religion often mistaken for a text editor (I love it, so I get > to make fun of it). One Emacs motto was "Over 400 easy-to-use commands". > > The Emacs user's guide has three separate indexes, and this division has > made it much easier to find things. The guide provides: > > * a key index holding the many keyboard macros which make extensive > use of escape and control keys, > * a function index describing routines you can call interactively or > from your own programs, and > * a concept index showing where to find descriptions of fundamental > Emacs things like "buffer" or "macro". > > If they jammed all this stuff into one index, it would be a lot less > usable. This may be an exception, but IMO it applies to a lot of computer > stuff. > > -- > Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil > ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:28:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple indexes The problem with multiple indexes is that they increase search time considerably. In my newbie days (last year), I indexed a 600-page book with separate name and subject indexes. When it came time to index the second volume, I used the first as a reference for how I had treated names. And with every lookup, I growled at having to flip past the subject index to get to the name index. How I wished they were combined! And I am an experienced reader. Besides the frustration factor, another good argument for a single index is that separate indexes separate related material, when one function of an index is to bring together from disparate places material on the same subject. For instance, a subject heading "FDR's administration" in the subject index would be widely separated from the entry on FDR in a name index. Clearly the material is closely related. Yes, one can solve that by having cross-references from the name index to subject index, but again, that creates additional work for the user. And we are agreed that it is important that the user be considered in all decisions affecting the index. My .02 for the day, now off to the Newberry. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:40:57 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andre De Tienne Subject: Multiple indexes One solution to attract the reader's attention to the fact that there are more than one index at the end of the book is simply to have a running head at the top of the page reading something like "Index 1: Subjects," "Index 2: Names," "Index 3: Citations," etc. That way, readers know instantly which index they are in, and that there is something else they might want to examine. Most books have room for a running head, so it should not be a problem for editors. I know of one indexer who recently submitted a proposal to index a certain journal of philosophy, and he suggested to break down the whole thing into eight separate indexes: Authors, Articles, Book reviews, Names, Subjects, Bibliographic References, Citations, and Reports & Conferences. Since the proposed index would constitute a separate volume, such a breakdown is not as problematic as it could be at the end of a book. The fact that most readers would not think of looking at more than one index is never a good argument against having more than one index, by the way. The decision to break down an index into separate parts must depend only on parameters internal to the work that is indexed (complexity, quantity, depth, breadth, type of work, readership, etc.). The equation "one index = greatest ease of use" is a fallacy if it claims to apply universally. There are certainly many cases in which breaking down an index increases its usability. An index should strive more to do justice to the work than to defer to the reader's potential intellectual laziness or rigidity, as far as is economically feasible. Andre De Tienne ******************************************************************** Andre De Tienne Tel.(H): 317-328-8789 HyperIndex Tel.(W): 317-274-2033 7590 Harcourt Road # 106 Fax: 317-274-2347 Indianapolis, IN 46260-3143 E-mail: adetienn@iupui.edu ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:36:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In a message dated 97-05-27 21:37:24 EDT, Dick wrote: > How do you determine the page count when working on an embedded index? > Suppose you print the document and generate 100 pages. You index from the > 100 pages (using CINDEX, for instance) then embed the tags and return the > file to the client. The client prints it with a different font and only > generates 95 pages. > Hi Dick, This is one reason why I insist that the client print and send me a hard copy of the book along with the files for embedded indexing projects. That way, it's printed in their font with their pagination. If they doubt the page count that I bill them for, they can easily verify it because I've generated it using the hard copy that they've sent me. This is aside from the obvious advantages of not having to print it out yourself. :-) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:56:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: multiple indexes for resources First, I'd add to this discussion that I'd list the range of pages and an= y cross-references for resources, such as the 150 pages of Internet resourc= es in your Netscape book, under the words "help" and "troubleshooting" as well as the word "resources", if that is what the purpose of any of these= Internet sites were. Secondly, because all the listings are Internet resources (rather than print) it strikes me that if indexers had more tim= e and the chance to work with production staff, some kind of boxed inset in= middle of the index under "I" for Internet resources would be a better solution than a separate index... I agree with the person who says reader= s often don't read notes or look for multiple indexes. = ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Cross-refs I'm wondering what y'all would do in the following situation. Let's say you want only two levels of entry, main and sub, so you end up with a couple of entries like this (they will each have subs later on): perspective, linear perspective, multiple-station-point Then you have the dichotomy "experience vs. concept" mentioned, which turns out to be really about perspective (all kinds). Rather than making a cross-ref. to each kind of perspective (I might end up with more than 2 before I'm done), I'm tempted to make a general cross-ref. to "perspective," trusting that the reader will see that there are several entries for "perspective": experience vs. concept See perspective perspective, linear perspective, multiple-station-point I know there's a worry that the perspective entries might end up on separate pages in the index, but I'm assuming that that reader will flip the page, just as she or he would to find out whether there were any more subs. Is this a legitimate way to handle cross-refs? Although I didn't find anything about it in Wellisch's _Indexing from A to Z_, in Mulvany's _Indexing Books_ (p. 107), I found this: "Clarity, however, should never be sacrificed to succinctness. Given the sample entries below, a cross-reference such as '_See_ LIST' would be inappropriate. The parenthetical phrase is needed so that the readers will know exactly which term is being referenced. LIST (command) LIST (text tag)" The problem is, I want to direct the reader to all the entries for "perspective" rather than point them to just one. With just the two entries, I would do this: experience vs. concept See perspective, linear; perspective, multiple-station-point But I suspect I'm going to have a lot of entries that start with "perspective." So I'd be interested in what you think. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:28:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Foreign terms Dear Index-Lers: I haven't exactly hit a wall today, but I have stumbled across a problem in my current project that I'd like to air for discussion. I have a question about the treatment of foreign terms in a book written in English: I am indexing a book with many Hebrew terms used both in transliteration and in translation, and I find myself creating main entries for the terms based primarily on the author's use of the terms. Where the term is used consistently in the text in transliteration, I find myself creating the index entry with the italicized word followed by a parenthetic translation, if one is given in the text. (Double-posting if necessary.) When the author uses an English word in the text, especially where the English term covers one or more Hebrew terms or where the translation is not equivalent (so the author choses the English term we will understand, but indicates the Hebrew equivalents), I find myself using the English term as a main entry, sometimes with one or more Hebrew terms parenthetically... (Double-posting only where actual Hebrew equivalents exist.) I am neither inclined to slavishly double-post every entry nor to convert every entry to "Hebrew transliteration (English)" or "English (Hebrew)" format for the sake of consistency... I have been double-posting the important terms for which equivalents in either language make sense as terms to be looked up in the index (a judgment call if ever there was one). But sometimes the foreign language term is used precisely because no adequate English equivalent exists (or there is some discussion of the correct equivalent--often alluded to in the voluminous notes to this sort of text). I have had this happen in other books with foreign language terms (I am thinking of some books on Buddhism that I've indexed, in which the English-language "equivalents" are not used precisely because they are not really equivalent terms....) and I am wondering if there is a good rule of thumb someone has devised to help clarify the judgments I am making. In looking over my draft index, I am thinking that it looks as though I have been inconsistent, when in fact I have been adhering as much as common sense and indexing experience allows to the author's nuanced use of terms. I've been trying to be sensitive to the author's specific vocabulary rather than imposing a slavish but perhaps not useful consistency. I have been justifying this as sensitive indexing, but it occurrs to me that this could be construed as my not knowing how to index (a la the discussions here of looking at other people's indexes and passing judgment)! So, what do other indexers do about this? (Most of the rules I see about this sort of thing don't seem to take into account the kind of nuanced language that the books I work on abound in.) (Some days I long for books with good old plain English and clear subject sentences in every paragraph....) Barbara