Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:48:01 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9701D" To: Julius Ariail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:53:09 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Publications Competitions Pilar Wyman asked how other organizations handle publications competitions. Here's my $.02 worth. I've been a co-chair for STC publications competitions at the local level, and I'm a judge for the international competition this year. Beth Hamilton is right about the way STC handles their competitions. BTW, they hold regional competitions first; then the winners of regional awards go on to the international level. As Beth noted, the feedback from judges is definitely a valuable part of the process. Feedback from judges is also a valuable part of the annual competition sponsored by the Colorado Center for the Book. BTW, they do not return books to the authors or publishers. They do hold a banquet each year to honor the winners in various categories, and all winning entries are displayed. A thought: The STC publications competitions give awards for various categories (hardware documentation, software documentation, newsletters, etc.) The Colorado Center for the Book also gives awards for different categories (children's books, mysteries, mainstream fiction, etc.). I would like to see categories for indexing awards. I've never been a judge for the H.W. Wilson Award, but I think it would be very difficult to compare indexes for, say, computer software books to philosophy books. Lori ********************************************************************* For information on the '97 schedule for the INDEXING SKILLS WORKSHOP FOR TECHNICAL COMMUNICATORS, contact: Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ********************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:59:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Kuhr /Subject Authority Files /6th Organization: The H.W.Wilson Company Subject: positions available Indexer needed for a project indexing and abstracting ABC transcripts and declassified government documents using a controlled vocabulary. The company for which this job is being offered is in the New Haven CT area and the indexer would need to be able to go there on occasion. Please contact Shirlee Schwartz at Library Consulting Services, 203-226-6606 or XVZG56A@prodigy.com for more information. Pat Kuhr Editor, Subject Authority Files H.W.Wilson Company pkuhr@info.hwwilson.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:54:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: index-l return address The reply-to address has been changed to the internet address. Hope this helps. Thanks Rollie. Your message to the listserv administrator added just enough sqeak to the wheel 8). Charlotte Skuster ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gateway Subject: NDN: index-l return address Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:=20 =20 lmoriber,tunanet (The name was not found at the remote site. Check that=20 the name has been entered correctly.)=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:03:16 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Mail Quagmire Hello, all-- Crawling out of my lurking corner to ask for HELP. I am on CompuServe, thank you, and receive all my e-mail through that service. Until a few months ago I had no problem handling the amount of incoming mail. Index-l was posting an amount that I could handle [15-20 a day] without having to look at my mailbox daily. NO LONGER. I feel like I'm sinking in quicksand, with over 100 postings in two days! My mistake, I suppose, was to subscribe recently to two or three other listservers, T-Telcom being one. A reply from CompuServe was not particularly helpful, referring me to another part of their service. The problem is that my mailbox tops out at 100 *messages*, not 100 kilobytes or whatever. CServe maintains that they cannot increase the mailbox size (do we believe this?). I vaguely recall that there *are* mail handling services out there that can handle this sort of problem, but I dislike the idea of becoming involved with yet another online service. I would rather pay my hard-earned cash for more and better software. On the other hand, software wouldn't solve the mailbox size problem. Anyone have suggestions? Criticisms? Witticisms? Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:58:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Switchboxes [also late] I may be late out of the gate but I AM jumping in with all four feet. After following the recent thread on switchboxes, here are a few observations. [I'm glad *someone* finally mentioned Lyben, since that is where I purchase all my boxes and cables.] 1. Yes, turn off everything before throwing a switch. I suspect that good equipment doesn't really care so much about "hot" switching, but it is often a good precaution. [I melted an OLD comm card by switching to a printer that had a dead short in it; the card had no output buffers to isolate the control lines from shorts.] 2. Make sure that your boxes switch ALL 25 lines; some old ones didn't. 3. This may resolve a question I was going to pose to Dick: What does bi-directionality have to do with switches? After all, 25 lines are 25 lines regardless of what they carry. However, do all CABLES carry all LINES, and does pin 1 at one end appear at pin 1 on the other? I noticed when installing a friend's Brother combo fax machine recently, that the supposed RS232 cable that came with the printer was in fact NOT an RS232 cable. AND WAS NOT MARKED as such in any way. All modern cables, as far as I know, carry all lines, and are shielded as well. 4. The situation where software will not address more than LPT1 is bizarre, to say the least. One may configure up to three LPT ports on one machine, according to DOS protocol, but of course you need the appropriate card in your machine to do this. [Even respected manufacturer's seem to do odd things in this regard: my new Sound Blaster card is *hard-wired* to IRQ5! Not even a jumper to play with.] Hope I haven't added to much more dross to this topic. Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:40:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Switchboxes [also late] At 08:58 PM 1/22/97 EST, you wrote: >3. This may resolve a question I was going to pose to Dick: What does > bi-directionality have to do with switches? After all, 25 lines are > 25 lines regardless of what they carry. I have been told that the switch box doesn't necessarily make 25 connections and monodirectional printers don't necessarily need all 25 but bidirectional printers do. I don't understand it, I just know I never had any problems until I got my bidirectional printer. Dick Richard (Dick) Evans Infodex Indexing Services, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:25:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: Mail Quagmire Dafydd Llwyd Talcott writes: >I feel like I'm sinking in quicksand, with over 100 postings >in two days! My mistake, I suppose, was to subscribe recently to two >or three other listservers, T-Telcom being one. > >A reply from CompuServe was not particularly helpful, referring me to >another part of their service. The problem is that my mailbox tops out >at 100 *messages*, not 100 kilobytes or whatever. CServe maintains that >they cannot increase the mailbox size (do we believe this?). I vaguely >recall that there *are* mail handling services out there that can handle >this sort of problem, but I dislike the idea of becoming involved with >yet another online service. Here's a suggestion: I believe INDEX-L is available in digest format (isn't that correct, Charlotte?) which would cut the traffic from this list down to one message per day. I know T-TELCOM is not, but you might consider checking the FAQs and welcome messages for your other listservs to see if you can receive them as digests also. That might be the easiest solution for your problem--if the number of messages is limited but their size is not, it might be better to receive a few very large ones, which would prevent the problem of topping out your mailbox and allow you to read each and every post without worry that you've missed anything. Hope this helps. Sarah |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | Technical Writing * Developmental Editing * Indexing | | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:27:03 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Mail Quagmire In response to Dafydd Llwyd Talcott's question ... you might consider subscribing to discussion lists in DIGEST mode. That way your CompuServe mailbox won't get overloaded. The disadvantage is that your responses to postings will generally be a day late because you'll have to wait for the DIGEST version, which contains all of the messages for the previous day. As I always say, everything in life is a trade-off! To get the DIGEST version of INDEX-L (and most other mailing lists), send a message to the listserv (not to the list!) and, in the first line of the message, write: SET INDEX-L DIGEST Happy indexing .... Lori ***************************************************************** For info on '97 indexing workshops in Boston, New York, Washington (DC), Minneapolis, Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Orlando, and Denver, contact: Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:29:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie-Lise Shams Subject: Re: Mail Quagmire In-Reply-To: <9701230106.AA17410@ciesin.org> To receive one message per day that contains all the daily postings send a message to: listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu, and in the body of the message: SET INDEX-L DIGEST You can do the same for the other discussion groups to which you belong. Marie-Lise ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Marie-Lise Shams ^ ^ Information Specialist ^ ^ Consortium for International Earth ^ ^ Science Information Network (CIESIN) ^ ^ 2250 Pierce Road ^ ^ University Center Michigan 48710 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Phone: +1-517-797-2790 ^ ^ Fax: +1-517-797-2622 ^ ^ E-mail: mshams@ciesin.org ^ ^ URL: http://www.ciesin.org ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:37:52 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: Re: Switchboxes At 08:58 PM 1/22/97 EST, Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote: ... >2. Make sure that your boxes switch ALL 25 lines; some old ones didn't. > >3. This may resolve a question I was going to pose to Dick: What does > bi-directionality have to do with switches? After all, 25 lines are > 25 lines regardless of what they carry. However, do all CABLES > carry all LINES, and does pin 1 at one end appear at pin 1 on the > other? I noticed when installing a friend's Brother combo fax machine > recently, that the supposed RS232 cable that came with the printer > was in fact NOT an RS232 cable. AND WAS NOT MARKED as such in any way. > All modern cables, as far as I know, carry all lines, and are shielded > as well. ... Macintosh users can immediately go to the next message. These comments relate only to the "IBM-compatible" world. This is an area where one can get burned in a hurry (figuratively if not literally). Here are some things I now believe about serial and parallel cables and switches, based on having fought lots of cabling battles over the last twenty years or so (and eventually most of them): Cables: there is no such thing as an "RS232 cable", despite what a catalog may call its products. Cables are mostly defined by what kind of connectors (both "gender" and style) are on the two ends, how many pins are connected, whether the wires are "straight through" or use some kind of cross-over pattern (this applies only to cables intended for serial communication), and whether or not the cable is shielded (i.e., has an outer conductive mesh wrap which is connected to the outer part of each connector, to protect against the effect of aerial signal interference from nearby fluorescent lights, etc.). I disagree with the statement that most "modern" cables are shielded--many cheap ones are not. Since some serial communication setups can get by with as few as three wires, some cheap cables use far fewer than 25 wires. If the male connector has fewer than 25 pins, that is a dead giveaway that the cable does not make 25 connections. But just because the connector has 25 pins does not guarantee that all 25 are connected to the other end of the cable. I don't think I have ever seen a cable *intended for parallel usage* which had fewer than 25 wires connected to both ends (some have up to 36, but you will seldom see that kind of cable for sale today). Back to the magic "word" RS232--there is no real RS232 standard. Despite the best efforts of some parts of the computer industry several decades ago, no real agreement has ever been reached on what "RS232" means, so one product's "RS232" may be far different from another product's "RS232." Switch boxes and switching: Most switch boxes of the sort being discussed here have connections for 25 wires, but often fewer than 25 are actually switched. Often at least the wire assumed to be "ground" is not switched--*all* connectors in the switch box may be unconditionally connected to each other for certain pins. Since the ground wire assignment is different between serial and parallel hookups, this can present problems. It is important when buying a switch box to know whether it was intended for serial or parallel connections. Switch boxes and directionality: For mechanical switches, the concept of directionality does not have much relevance. But for electronic switches, it most definitely does. Most electronic switch boxes and signal splitters use some diodes which allow current to flow in only one direction. The bottom line to all this is: Buy your cables and switch boxes from someone you trust completely and/or who will refund your purchase price if the product you buy does not work with your particular setup. Read the product description carefully before you buy--it may not tell you much of anything, but sometimes you can save yourself a lot of headaches by noticing that the product's intended usage is not *your* intended usage. Rollie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:20:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: Library of Congress subject headings >I'm interested in information about indexing periodicals using Library of >Congress subject headings. Is this common? I don't find any mention of this >approach in the texts I've been using. Can you recommend publications >covering this approach to indexing? Can you tell us more about the application you have in mind? Periodical indexing often uses a controlled vocabulary, unlike back-of-the-book indexing, which tends to draw its terms from the text, with appropriate cross-references from other terms common in the field. However, when I have indexed periodicals, I have tried to use a thesaurus from the field of the periodical, such as library science. Since new terms in a field appear first in periodicals, frequently LCSH will not yet have established a heading. It can therefore be frustrating to use. When I was in library school, I quickly learned that catalogers hide books and reference librarians have to find them. After thirty years as a librarian, I am still at a loss to explain to users why the books are hidden where they are (Cookery?!). Thank goodness for keyword searching in library catalogs. If a client wanted me to use LCSH, I would try to talk them out of it, or at least to supplement LCSH with my own terms if necessary. Janet Russell Corofin Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:24:43 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Switchboxes Rollie Littlewood's argument expands much of what I mentioned in my previous note. As a technician myself, I was forgetting a personal maxim I usually follow when working on equipment: never assume anything. I ASSUMED that cables were shielded in current practice, but this seems not to be a "true fact". And I had *forgotten* that some switchboxes indeed do NOT switch all lines. Rollie states quite clearly what I had only hinted at: that all 25 lines must be pin-to-pin continuous through all cables, all lines must follow the same rule when passing through a switchbox, and all lines must actually be switched. Yes, I suppose there is no "real" RS232 standard, in that the industry has allowed the standard to be too loosely interpreted. [But I had to call it *something*.] The definition of signal voltage levels as being allowable as +3 to +48 volts -- as I recall -- was probably absurd even when the standard was first promulgated. _However_ RS232 still defines control line function assignments and pin numbers, does it not? Or am I wrong again? Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Library of Congress subject headings According to Lois Mai Chan and Theodora Hodges in Technical Services Today and Tomorrow, by Michael Gorman and associates (Libraries Unlimited, Inc., 1990), p. 76, "Currently [as of 1990 anyway], at least twenty commercial online databases use it {LCSH] (some with augmentation or modification) as their indexing vocabulary; these include Business Index, Cumulative Book Index, Education Index, Magazine Index, National Newspaper Index, and Social Sciences Index." I don't want to get into a big discussion of LCSH here, but I do think that to dismiss Library of Congress Subject Headings (LCSH) and rely on only keyword access points is not particularly helpful to anyone. LCSH have a great many good attributes, one of which is predictability of information retrieval and also the bringing together of related topics. Keyword searching misses many things because you cannot use all the possible keywords at once. Using controlled vocab can usually retrieve more relevant information than does keyword searching (try using keyword searching on the Net sometime, for example). LCSH have their problems (lack of currency, political incorrectness, inverted headings) at times, but that is not to say that they have no merit as a tool for term selection. For those interested in diving into the quagmire of discussion on this subject, I would like to recommend Library Science Models: A Guide to Classification, Cataloging, and Computers, by a reference librarian at the Library of Congress, Thomas Mann (Oxford U. Press, 1993, ISBN 0-19-508190-0). Look at his comments on key word access. Another good, but brief, introduction to the crisis in subject analysis and LCSH is at: http://www.unites.uqam.ca/bib/Service/Services_techniques/crisis.html At 03:20 PM 1/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >>I'm interested in information about indexing periodicals using Library of >>Congress subject headings. Is this common? I don't find any mention of >this >>approach in the texts I've been using. Can you recommend publications >>covering this approach to indexing? > >Can you tell us more about the application you have in mind? Periodical >indexing often uses a controlled vocabulary, unlike back-of-the-book >indexing, which tends to draw its terms from the text, with appropriate >cross-references from other terms common in the field. However, when I have >indexed periodicals, I have tried to use a thesaurus from the field of the >periodical, such as library science. Since new terms in a field appear first >in periodicals, frequently LCSH will not yet have established a heading. It >can therefore be frustrating to use. > >When I was in library school, I quickly learned that catalogers hide books >and reference librarians have to find them. After thirty years as a >librarian, I am still at a loss to explain to users why the books are hidden >where they are (Cookery?!). Thank goodness for keyword searching in >library catalogs. If a client wanted me to use LCSH, I would try to talk >them out of it, or at least to supplement LCSH with my own terms if >necessary. > >Janet Russell >Corofin Indexing Services > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:17:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Clifford Urr Subject: Who Needs an Index?! Hello all, I just thought to copy my response below to Michael S. Hart, the fellow who runs the Gutenberg Project (entailing putting entire books into ASCII). I thought many people here would be very interested in what he says about indexes/indexers in an ongoing discussion in another list. I reply to what he says following the quoted text which he wrote. Feel free to write him with your thoughts (his email address is included below). Maybe the list owners here or someone else can invite him to join this list to duke it out for everyone to see? > The books in the libraries are hard the original format. They have > been edited over and over. Most of us would not want to see them in > their original formats, just as we would not want to see a picture > of the them, but would rather use an easily searchable ASCII file, > thus freeing us of the biases of any indexers. Why use an index > when the entire file is its own index. > From: "Michael S. Hart" A major reason why an index is needed is the problem of synonymy - users input words in their search inquiry that don't appear in the document but the equivalent does appear. e.g., user inputs "cars" but the word "autos" is the only one that is actually in the text. When the user gets no results, he/she assumes that "cars", i.e. autos in the text, is never mentioned. But it is: in the form of the word "autos". This is a very simple example, but it can cause a lot of problems for users. Good indexes include faceted listings beneath higher-level concepts mentioned in the text; your brute force ASCII search completely lacks this feature, making it much harder for users to zero-in on sought-for concepts and issues. Brute-force ASCII searching also often brings back excessive numbers of results; who wants to wade through dozens or hundreds of instances of an input word?! Weighted searching engines can help somewhat, but they are hardly panaceas, and they simply can't give the facets of an issue like a good indexer can. Good indexes are seperate, distinct knowledge-adding, value-adding and filtering tools in their own right. When you say "Why use an index when the entire file is its own index," it seems you completely ignore or miss this crucial element of indexes, as if you are implying that indexes are merely a repetition of the text put in a list format. This is true enough about a *concordance* but not an index. And the fact that an index, unlike a concordance, can be copyrighted, is further proof of the value-adding and distinctice nature of this piece of intellectual property. One more point: I don't know what you mean by the "biases of the indexer." Most indexers try hard to adhere closely to the terminology supplied in the text. When they add terminology external to what actually appears in the text, it is usually to add a pointer to something somewhere in the text, often a concept that is strongly implied by the text but which the text does not supply. Indexers are like mapmakers, and some maps are better or worse than others. However, I have never heard of a study that demonstrated that indexer bias seriously effects what I called in an article I wrote about hypertext (see my web page for the article) "access value." But a well-structured index with a bit of indexer bias is a hell of a lot better than none at all, and it's better than forcing users to fend for themselves in the wilds of Booelan forests of ASCII characters. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:13:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Wilson Award >3. Pride. To submit an index takes pride, not "nerve." In fact, > if I lose, nobody ever has to know about it. If a list of those who submitted is published, then in fact everyone will know about it. I would not support such a list being published. Certainly, though, submissions should be acknowledged. In other, related contexts, an SASE is sometimes required of entrants for just that purpose. Usually, return of a manuscript, which the entry-books could be likened to, is contingent upon the entrant's inclusion of sufficient postage. These mechanisms could be put in place to help regularize the process, which sounds like it has been inconsistent. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mail Quagmire In a message dated 97-01-23 15:08:53 EST, you write: << ***************************************************************** For info on '97 indexing workshops in Boston, New York, Washington (DC), Minneapolis, Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Orlando, and Denver, contact: >> Lori, I was glad to see this tag line in your Index-L posting. Why not? You might as well! Bravo! Janet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:15:26 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Indexing awards by category Lori wrote: >A thought: The STC publications competitions give awards for various categories (hardware documentation, software documentation, newsletters, etc.) The Colorado Center for the Book also gives awards for different categories (children's books, mysteries, mainstream fiction, etc.). I would like to see categories for indexing awards. I've never been a judge for the H.W. Wilson Award, but I think it would be very difficult to compare indexes for, say, computer software books to philosophy books. I agree. Hopefully this would have the effect of drawing more entries from people who would otherwise think "my book doesn't have a chance against those heavyweights". Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Blue Mountains Desktop 61-047-398 199 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:09:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GVHatch@AOL.COM Subject: ASI SoCal Conference We are happy to announce that the Southern California ASI conference will take place as planned on Feb. 8, 1997 in Long Beach, CA. We have added one new presenter to our conference: Gale Rhoades will speak on "Purchasing Computer Equipment...Some Recommendations". For details on the conference please contact E. Micki Taylor at EMickiT@aol.com or call her at (213) 465-0827 (not before 10:00 a.m. please). Information is also available on the ASI Web page: http://www.well.com/user/asi/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:08:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mail Quagmire My apologies to Lori and the list readers ... I posted a message to the list that I intended to be sent privately to Lori. These are the things you wish had never happened. My apologies. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:18:49 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bert Boyce Subject: Re: Who Needs an Index?! I just thought to copy my response below to Michael S. Hart, the >fellow who runs the Gutenberg Project (entailing putting entire books into >ASCII). I just thought I would add a point to Mr. Urr's comments. Anyone who has done any serious searching in free text files has some idea of the number of false drops that occur without very sophisticated search strategies. If you don't think so, just try a web search engine. While this will be bad enough dropping pages in a book of any size, if one is searching across a collection the compounding of the problem is troublesome indeed. Consider the problem of name authority, which even with sophisticated controls in OCLC, can cause drops of a size the system can not handle. The point is that "you pay me now, or you pay me later!" A simple free text index saves time and money at creation, but costs time and money at time of search. Transfering the load to the user, who does not have the necessary skills in many cases, may avoid bias, but at the cost of inefficiency and frustration. I would opt for the bias. BRB Bert R. Boyce, Professor & Dean School of Library & Information Science Louisiana State University 267 Coates Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803 (504)388-3158 FAX: (504)388-4581 LSBOYC@LSUVM.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:21:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Who Needs an Index?! Suppose you are an art historian compiling a history of images of Abraham Lincoln. You can search on "Lincoln" and get hits on Abraham Lincoln, including may false hits that have nothing to do with images of the man. Furthermore, you will get hits on Lincoln, Nebraska and Lincoln Town cars. You will not get hits on "our 16th president" or "the Great Emancipator" nor will you get hits on "Mount Rushmore", an important image for your collection. Dick Evans Richard (Dick) Evans Infodex Indexing Services, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:38:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Indexer in NY Times As a former New Yorker, I look at the NY Times every few days online, and one of columns I always read is "Metropolitan Diary", which contains amusing stories about life in the city. Imagine my surprise to see at the end of the column for Wed., Jan. 22, a paragraph by an indexer, Joan Haladay, talking about the reaction she gets when people asks what she does (a familiar story to many of us.) I found this on AOL (keyword @times, Home and Living section) but I'm sure it's also available on the Web (www.nytimes.com.) Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:00:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: New (but small) problems now that Bitnet address is gone Thanks to the cooperation of the LISTSERV administrator at SUNY-Binghamton, the problems of bounced replies to the list (due to the use of the Bitnet Reply-to: address) should be a thing of the past. But for a few list members, this change presented an unexpected problem. If you look in detail at the LISTSERV REFCARD for this LISTSERV host, you will see that you have four choices for the type of mail headers you will receive with your INDEX-L messages. The choices are SHORThdr, FULLhdr, IETFhdr and DUALhdr. SHORThdr is the default, i.e., the one you get if you don't even mention the subject to the LISTSERV host. But some list members discovered while the list was still using its Bitnet address for the Reply-to: header that if they sent a SET INDEX-L IETFhdr command to the LISTSERV host (*not* to the INDEX-L list) all references to the Bitnet address of the list went away. Unfortunately for some reason the use of this command does away with the Reply-to: header altogether. So for those list members who earlier chose to use the IETF ("internet-style") headers, I suggest they now send a new command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU SET INDEX-L SHORThdr The default ("Short") header style appears to me to now be very satisfactory. A few list members might prefer the DUALhdr style because it includes the name of the sender and the subject right in the body of the message instead of just in the headers. Caveat: I did all my investigation in non-digest mode. I can't be sure that the same rules apply in digest mode. By the way, one of the seldom-seen headers for INDEX-L messages indicates that the messages from INDEX-L are also available on a Usenet newsgroup called bit.listserv.index-l. There is no such newsgroup on my news server--has anyone else ever seen this news group, or is this header obsolete? Rollie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:07:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Clifford Urr (by way of Rollie Littlewood )" Subject: Who Needs an Index?! For some reason, this message seems to have been sent just to me instead of the whole INDEX-L list. My apologies if this is in fact a duplicate sending of this message. Rollie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all, I just thought to copy my response below to Michael S. Hart, the fellow who runs the Gutenberg Project (entailing putting entire books into ASCII). I thought many people here would be very interested in what he says about indexes/indexers in an ongoing discussion in another list. I reply to what he says following the quoted text which he wrote. Feel free to write him with your thoughts (his email address is included below). Maybe the list owners here or someone else can invite him to join this list to duke it out for everyone to see? > The books in the libraries are hard the original format. They have > been edited over and over. Most of us would not want to see them in > their original formats, just as we would not want to see a picture > of the them, but would rather use an easily searchable ASCII file, > thus freeing us of the biases of any indexers. Why use an index > when the entire file is its own index. > From: "Michael S. Hart" A major reason why an index is needed is the problem of synonymy - users input words in their search inquiry that don't appear in the document but the equivalent does appear. e.g., user inputs "cars" but the word "autos" is the only one that is actually in the text. When the user gets no results, he/she assumes that "cars", i.e. autos in the text, is never mentioned. But it is: in the form of the word "autos". This is a very simple example, but it can cause a lot of problems for users. Good indexes include faceted listings beneath higher-level concepts mentioned in the text; your brute force ASCII search completely lacks this feature, making it much harder for users to zero-in on sought-for concepts and issues. Brute-force ASCII searching also often brings back excessive numbers of results; who wants to wade through dozens or hundreds of instances of an input word?! Weighted searching engines can help somewhat, but they are hardly panaceas, and they simply can't give the facets of an issue like a good indexer can. Good indexes are seperate, distinct knowledge-adding, value-adding and filtering tools in their own right. When you say "Why use an index when the entire file is its own index," it seems you completely ignore or miss this crucial element of indexes, as if you are implying that indexes are merely a repetition of the text put in a list format. This is true enough about a *concordance* but not an index. And the fact that an index, unlike a concordance, can be copyrighted, is further proof of the value-adding and distinctice nature of this piece of intellectual property. One more point: I don't know what you mean by the "biases of the indexer." Most indexers try hard to adhere closely to the terminology supplied in the text. When they add terminology external to what actually appears in the text, it is usually to add a pointer to something somewhere in the text, often a concept that is strongly implied by the text but which the text does not supply. Indexers are like mapmakers, and some maps are better or worse than others. However, I have never heard of a study that demonstrated that indexer bias seriously effects what I called in an article I wrote about hypertext (see my web page for the article) "access value." But a well-structured index with a bit of indexer bias is a hell of a lot better than none at all, and it's better than forcing users to fend for themselves in the wilds of Booelan forests of ASCII characters. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:13:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Robert Austen Subject: Re: New (but small) problems now that Bitnet address is gone In-Reply-To: <199701241614.LAA19877@obslave.ucs.indiana.edu> Just a test. Cheers. ------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:44:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Switchboxes >From "PC Novice," 1996 Dec, p.90: "If your'e lucky, allyou need is a new printer cable that's certified as 'bidirectional.' Look on the cable's box and see if it says 'bidirectional' or 'IEEE-1284 compliant.' There are some computers (like the ones connected to a printer through a printer-sharing box or network) where it's impossible to ever get printer control software to "see" the printer and work. In that case, consider a $50 utility program called SizeIt (Succinct Systems, 800/639-3711, 802/649-5144). This product can control your printer's settings, including its default settings, without a bidirectional printer plug. It also allows older programs (which don't have the control of fonts that Windows programs do) that normally print in the Courier font to print in any of the elegant internal printer fonts, even proportional fonts that normally would throw off the alignment of columns in reports." Diane Worden, Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:23:16 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Headers for posting Frankly, I like the IETF header, because when I hit the reply button, I send a reply automatically to the _individual_, *not* the list. This makes it easier for me to reply to senders, and cuts down on the traffic on the list. I used my address book to create the address for the listserv so that I can think carefully about who I want to reply to before I hit the send button. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:04:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Switchboxes In a message dated 97-01-23 19:31:43 EST, Daffyd wrote: > Yes, I suppose there is no "real" RS232 standard, in that the industry > has allowed the standard to be too loosely interpreted. [But I had to > call it *something*.] The definition of signal voltage levels as being > allowable as +3 to +48 volts -- as I recall -- was probably absurd > even when the standard was first promulgated. _However_ RS232 still > defines control line function assignments and pin numbers, does it not? > > Or am I wrong again? Daffyd, Here's another electronics technician chiming in. IMHO, you're right about the RS232 protocol defining control line assignments and pin numbers. If I remember correctly, the CTS, ground, and DTR lines (for example) were always *supposed* to be on certain pins. (The allowance for voltages as high as 48v *may* have been to accomodate telephone/TTY equipment where that voltage is pretty common, at least around the time they formulated the standard, as well as the 3v, etc. logic levels it covers. I'm just guessing, as it's been years since I worked on telecom equipment.) I think that some of the confusion over RS232 is not only due to the loose interpretation of it but also because it comes in different flavors (RS232C, for example, as opposed to the older plain RS232, though the RS232C version's been around for quite a while, too.). But there is a lot of just plain sloppiness out there by manufacturers when it comes to adhering "standards" for electronic equipment, especially when it comes to cabling and wiring. So, caveat emptor. BTW, I had to chuckle when I read your maxim about not assuming anything when working on equipment (e.g. zap!!!... after assuming the power was off because the Power On light was burned out...> I find it holds true for indexing too, having just called a client because a section of pages was misnumbered and some pages were actually missing. ;-D (Never assume all of the pages are right when you receive the proofs). See how I brought this topic onto indexing for those who may be bored with all of this techie talk? ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:22:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queries (was clients and computers) Carol wrote: > >What I do is embed the queries as I go along this way: > >Taylor [first name?], 20-23 > >I'm using Cindex, so when I'm done keying everything in and editing, I do a >"find all" for the character "[," which then gives me a temporary grouping >of all my queries. I save that grouping as a text file. Then I go back and >delete every query from the index itself to make absolutely they will not >find their way into the finished book. The text file of the queries can >then be sent to the author or production editor along with the index. > I use the [] method for notes to myself in the index, then search "[" when I'm done editing to make sure they're all out of there. I use Macrex, so I could do the same grouping procedure--I like your method! For queries going to the editor I use Wordperfect, where I have my letter set up (using a macro that not only puts in the address and opening paragraph but my usual query categories: "I found typos on the following pages (enclosed)," "I did not have first names for the following:", "Inconsistencies, indexed in first listed form:". I can easily flip back and forth from the index using Alt-Tab (I run Macrex through Windows) when I find something I need to query. Re computer formats: I always discuss this with the client at the beginning of the job (of course, I already know what my ongoing clients want). If they don't know what they want I ask if I can send a Wordperfect file (easiest for me). I often have to educate them about italic codes for ASCII files, and they often decide that they can convert a Wordperfect file perfectly easily. Do Mi > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:25:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: designations for figures Like Carol, I follow the editor's preference and always ask. Many of them do want figures, tables, etc. specified (using an italicized f or t, or figure or table, in parentheses or not--very few italicize the page number, thank goodness), with pages duplicated if text and figure are in the same entry. If they ask for my opinion or let me decide, I do ^not^ do this; I treat illustrations as text. I know this can be argued both ways, but in my opinion the important thing is to get the reader to the information about the subject. What form that information is in is not necessarily the business of the index, when weighed against making it easy to use--and lots of separate ^f^ or ^figure^ entries can get unwieldy and confusing very fast. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:42:57 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: designations for figures At 06:25 PM 1/24/97 -0500, you wrote: I treat >illustrations as text.lots of separate >^f^ or ^figure^ entries can get unwieldy and confusing very fast. > >Do Mi Stauber > This indexer speaks my mind. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Fwd: RWO & "indexing" (long, but important) As you see, this scholarly project (largely voluntary) is embarking on a serious indexing task and begging for advice. I thought I would forward it to the group that can best advise them. If you have the time and the good will to make suggestions, I will be happy to forward them to the Women Writers Project (Or you could send them directly to Paul Caton, of course.) Thanks! Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing --------------------- Forwarded message: From: paul@URSULA.STG.BROWN.EDU (Paul Caton) Sender: WWP-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Brown University Women Writers Project) Reply-to: WWP-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Brown University Women Writers Project) To: WWP-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list WWP-L) Date: 97-01-24 13:52:03 EST Dear readers of the WWP list, This posting concerns contextual materials for the WWP's "Renaissance Women Online" initiative. If you already know what this is, skip ahead to the third paragraph; if not, just read on. Towards the end of last year the Women Writers Project received a $400,000 award from the Mellon Foundation. Primarily, what is being funded is an economic assessment of electronic text delivery compared to traditional means. To accomplish this the WWP has proposed to create a subset of its overall textbase and put it online in a form that will be useful to teachers, students and informed general readers. This initiative, referred to as "Renaissance Women Online" (RWO), involves initially making available one hundred works by women published between the mid-15th and early 18th centuries. Accompanying the works in the textbase will be two kinds of contextual materials to aid the user. For each work there will be a brief introduction, some information about the author, about the history of the work, about the particular edition that has been encoded, and so on. The other kind of information will help readers understand and identify themes and issues that run throughout the textbase. Collection of the first kind of information has already begun (volunteers welcome--e-mail me for details). John Lavagnino (the RWO project coordinator) and I would like now to decide upon a format for the second type of contextual material. We intend this second type to help users who come to the textbase with thematic questions. We especially want this material to be helpful to the student who lacks familiarity with the period and field and who wants to write a topic-based paper rather than one about a particular author or work. She or he might, for example, want to know what women in the seventeenth century wrote about child rearing, or what women in the second half of the sixteenth century said in print about Queen Elizabeth, and so on. This may sound like a question of providing an index, but there are three reasons why a simple index is not the answer. Firstly, the creation of an automatically generated 'list of words' type of index would be redundant because the textbase interface will give users a very convenient way of searching for and then going to all the occurrences of a particular word. Secondly, there is no guarantee that such an index would indicate all the instances of something. A writer might say important things about a topic without using any of the keywords normally associated with that topic. And thirdly, because an index does not itself give you any information about topics: it only points. We need a structure that works as a *kind* of index, but that is more focussed and more informative than a straightforward index. We have an initial outline which I present here to solicit your ideas on how to improve it. We're thinking of a structure something like this: DIVISION INTO BROAD SUBJECT AREAS We divide the field into a list of very broad areas (such as politics, religion, education, etc.) SUBJECT AREAS DIVIDE INTO TOPICS We break up the subject areas into topics particularly relevant to the concerns of the women writers in the textbase. Within any one subject we try to keep the list of topics to a manageable number, say ten at most. So for example, the subject area "CULTURE" might break up into topics such as: Court life consumption the debate about women the role of the theatre publication representations of women Then for each of these topics a scholar provides a short (up to 1500 words?) essay or headnote. Just like the introductions which are part of the first type of contextual materials these headnotes should be authoritative but not argumentative--a description of the lay of the land, not a presentation of new research into one area of it. We want scholars to give us the benefit of their familiarity with the field and their experience of having to summarise and convey this overarching knowledge to their students. It would be helpful if in the headnote the scholar briefly described the positions some works in the textbase take on the topic. We may find that in some topics a particular issue or event generates a cluster of writings notable or interesting enough to deserve a headnote of its own. For example, within the "debate about women" topic the cluster of "responses to Swetnam" could have a headnote. TOPICS LINK UP TO PARTICULAR WORKS After each topic's (or sub-topic's) headnote comes a list of works in the textbase which significantly manifest this topic. "Significantly" because we have to draw a line to keep the indexing function useful. Here we harness the expertise of the scholars writing the introductions to individual works: they will decide to which subtopics the work they are dealing with is most relevant. If a scholar finds that no topics seem appropriate to what their particular work is about, then s/he is free to suggest a new topic for inclusion in the list--but this will only be really useful if the proposed new topic applies to other works as well. So, for example, following the "responses to Swetnam" headnote would be a list of works that would include "Swetnam the Woman-hater". At the same time, in the contextual materials for "Swetnam the Woman-hater" there would be a list of topics to which it related and it would include "responses to Swetnam". Thus we have a cross-referencing--and this being electronic text, the cross-reference would also be a link. To see our first stab at a breakdown into subjects and topics, have a look at the Web page at this address: http://www.wwp.brown.edu/rwo/topics.html The structure I have been describing represents what we think to be the most useful approach given our current resources. It doesn't pretend to aim at being comprehensive, but it does aim to encourage and facilitate use of the textbase. With this structure in place, a student coming to the textbase with a project of writing on a theme gets two kinds of help: the headnote gives them facts to start from, and they are led to several works to talk about in their treatment of the theme. Not only that, it works the other way: they can follow a path from an individual work out to a general theme. The textbase won't write students' essays for them, but it will put the students in a good place to write from. We invite your comments and suggestions (and, of course, offers to contribute!). The Renaissance Women Online textbase stands to become a major resource for yourselves and your students in the not-too-distant future--please help us make it the best we can. Paul Caton -- Electronic Publications Editor Brown University Women Writers Project Paul_Caton@Brown.edu (401) 863-2031 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:57:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Headers for posting Well, thanks to Rollie one can now have ones personal preference -- IETFhdr if one prefers a default of reply only to original sender, SHORThdr if one prefers a default of reply to the index-l list. S. Greenhouse wrote [in a personal message]: > > Frankly, I like the IETF header, because when I hit the reply button, I > send a reply automatically to the _individual_, *not* the list. This > makes it easier for me to reply to senders, and cuts down on the traffic > on the list. I used my address book to create the address for the > listserv so that I can think carefully about who I want to reply to > before I hit the send button. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: designations for figures I'm with Do Mi: >If they ask for my opinion or let me decide, I do ^not^ do this; I treat >illustrations as text... I've always thought it ridiculous to have: Heading, 12-14, 12illus., 13illus., 14illus., 17-19, 17illus., 18illus., 19illus. Yeah Ok so I exaggerated a bit for effect but I think Heading, 12-14, 17-19 just serves the user a lot better. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:34:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "James L. Curtis" Subject: ASI meeting and work I am a fledgling indexer delurking to seek advice. How valuable would attendance at the upcoming annual meeting of the ASI be in terms of finding indexing jobs? The schedule looks interesting and interacting with other indexers would undoubtedly be very useful, but at this point my client base -- and consequently my income -- is very small, so the decision to attend or not has to be based on finances. Can one reasonably expect that attendance will bring in work so that the expense is a wise investment? Any thoughts on this would be welcome. Jim Curtis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:09 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: designations for figures At 02:11 AM 1/25/97 -0500, indexer@INETCOM.NET wrote: >Yeah Ok so I exaggerated a bit for effect but I think > >Heading, 12-14, 17-19 > >just serves the user a lot better. Generally, I agree. If the editor has no preference, I'll treat the illustrations as text (and I also don't index illustrations unless they are specifically illustrative rather than just decorative). But consider the index to an art survey textbook. There, you will be indexing painters, and their works, and possibly also portraits of the painters. The student most definitely will want/need to know which page contains an essay about Van Gogh, and which contains his self-portrait, and where to find _The Starry Night_ (as opposed to the discussion about that painting). There are other similar situations where in the best of all possible worlds you might prefer to have finely-divided subheads to cover these situations but space limitations prohibit that. So you use typography instead. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:38:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: ASI meeting and work At 11:34 AM 1/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >I am a fledgling indexer delurking to seek advice. How valuable would >attendance at the upcoming annual meeting of the ASI be in terms of finding >indexing jobs? The schedule looks interesting and interacting with other >indexers would undoubtedly be very useful, but at this point my client base >-- and consequently my income -- is very small, so the decision to attend or >not has to be based on finances. Can one reasonably expect that attendance >will bring in work so that the expense is a wise investment? If you are serious about building an indexing business, resign yourself to the necessity of spending money to make money. Accept that networking and getting yourself known is key to success. Attending conferences is one of the best ways to network and the ASI conference is one of the best for that purpose. I had to hock my Nikon camera to raise money for my first ASI conference and, at the time, didn't seem to benefit from it. However, a contact I made there turned into a client two years later. I also made a new client at my third conference. I do suggest that you not appear too hungry. That is, do not make every contact a blatant pitch for work. Talk to people, demonstrate that you are a competent indexer, and take it slow. I also believe (though I have not yet tested the belief) that you are preaching to the choir at the ASI conference. Indeed, there are potential clients but there is also a lot of competition for their attention. Therefore, it might be wise to attend publishing conferences where the client/indexer ratio is much higher. This year I plan to attend the College Art Association publishers conference in New York in February and the Society for Technical Communications (STC) conference in Toronto in May. Dick Evans Richard (Dick) Evans Infodex Indexing Services, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:06:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI meeting and work Another good source of networking contacts are your local chapter meetings. I generally do not refer work unless I know the person. Our chapter sometimes has publishers representatives in attendance and you can get to meet these people at breaks and at lunch. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:43:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: italic text, techniques for data entry Hello, all. I'm indexing a book about perennials. The publisher wants the botanical names in italics. I'm wondering if anyone using Cindex has any hints for speeding data entry. I get tired just thinking about typing all those "/i /I" tags. Ideally I would like to type the name and then press a key to surround the name with the italic tags. My second thought is to enter them all without italic tags but with a special character at the end (Echinacia@, for example) and do a global replace later. Any other suggestions? Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:54:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry I, too, have to do this and what I do to save tedious entry time is the following: I create an abbreviation for the \i\I by typing ab / in the command field and then when the abbreviation screen pops up I just enter \i\I, and the / is only thing I type for the italics code. I then enter the name in between the code by backspacing 2 spaces to be in the middle between the i and the \. (I usually do all italics as underlinings in my drafts for the publisher--they turn them all into italics.) If the names of the plants or animals, etc., gets to be too repetitious, I make another abbreviation for the name or part of the name, like the genus part. For example, in a recent book I had the following, Brachyplatystoma ... , about umpteen million times (or so it seemed), so I just abbreviated it as br and it worked like a charm. [Be sure the code is \i\I (back slash not forward slash).] I print out the abbreviations and keep the list by my proofs so that if I have loads of abbreviations I can remember what they all are. It does save time in the long run to do this. When I start a new book, I usually delete the old abbreviations. If you don't use the abbreviate function much, look at the Cindex manual for more detail. I am looking forward to Cindex's Windows versions where you can just italicize, etc., at the blink of an eye! But the above is the best method that I have found so far. I would like to hear what other people do with this, too. At 01:43 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Ann Norcross wrote: >Hello, all. I'm indexing a book about perennials. The publisher wants >the botanical names in italics. I'm wondering if anyone using Cindex has >any hints for speeding data entry. I get tired just thinking about >typing all those "/i /I" tags. Ideally I would like to type the name and >then press a key to surround the name with the italic tags. My second >thought is to enter them all without italic tags but with a special >character at the end (Echinacia@, for example) and do a global replace >later. Any other suggestions? > >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:32:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry Hi -- I store the italic/ bold etc codes in the function keys. This reduces the typing to only 2 extra keystrokes -- eg: F3= /i; F4 = /I. I too am looking forward to the Windows version! Christine Re: >any hints for speeding data entry. I get tired just thinking about >typing all those "/i /I" tags [in Cindex] >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services Christine Jacobs Documentation and Library Systems John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI meeting and work While the ASI may allow you to make contacts that will bring new indexing work, the most important purpose of the conference is to increase your skills so that you can be a better indexer. Especially for those just beginning in the field, the conference offers an unparalleled opportunity to meet people in the business, talk with experts in the field, attend workshops and roundtables that are of special interest to you, and to get a feel for how the field works. I can't emphasize enough the importance of becoming involved in our field's professional association. The conference offers the best way to meet people and learn about what is going on. >From that point of view, I believe the conference is a great investment. And remember, all expenses you have in connection with the conference are tax-deductible. Fred Leise "Between the LInes" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:58:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: ASI meeting and work In-Reply-To: <199701251542.HAA03149@mx4.u.washington.edu> I've attended the last 3 ASI national meetings and have acquired at least 3 new clients thru contacts made at those meetings. You will in all likelihood not find "jobs available" notices at an ASI meeting; but you have an opportunity to talk to publishers and editors, and get acquainted with other indexers who, when asked to recommend another indexer for jobs they can't handle, tend to make referrals to people they know personally. So I consider the cost of professional meetings (national AND local!) as a long term investment rather than an expense. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, James L. Curtis wrote: > I am a fledgling indexer delurking to seek advice. How valuable would > attendance at the upcoming annual meeting of the ASI be in terms of finding > indexing jobs? The schedule looks interesting and interacting with other > indexers would undoubtedly be very useful, but at this point my client base > -- and consequently my income -- is very small, so the decision to attend or > not has to be based on finances. Can one reasonably expect that attendance > will bring in work so that the expense is a wise investment? Any thoughts > on this would be welcome. > > > Jim Curtis > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry Ann Norcross wrote: > I get tired just thinking about >typing all those "/i /I" tags. Ideally I would like to type the name and >then press a key to surround the name with the italic tags. My second >thought is to enter them all without italic tags but with a special >character at the end (Echinacia@, for example) and do a global replace >later. Any other suggestions? Ann what I do saves some time: just define the pair of them to be a set key. Then all you have to do is 2 left arrows which are relatively brainless. Now if you could save left arrows in set keys that would be neat! Anything good you read in there about echinacea is true I can attest. I'm now about 18 months without a cold or flu and zero allergy symptoms after years of allergy agony. Another wonder herb from the First Americans. For a great read and a book that will change forever how you see the world, read "Indian Givers" by Jack Weatherford. It's a wonderful ironic play on the normal meaning of the term. By the way, somebody e-mailed a while back (9 months or so maybe) about echinacea for her asthma I think it was? Any success? Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:45:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Nagel/MasterWork Subject: ?CHAT (please reply offlist) I am planning a trip to Paris next summer, and would like to take make side-trip to Brugge/Bruges, Belgium for a few days. Are there any list members who know the city and would be willing to give me advice on places to stay and things to see? Please reply off-list. Thank you, Kat Nagel LIFE1: Technical writing / katnagel@eznet.net LIFE2: Vocal chamber music / PlaynSong@aol.com (LIFE1 pays for LIFE2) @Kat _______________________________ katnagel@eznet.net Kat Nagel MasterWork Consulting Services, Rochester, NY Technical writing / Document design / Publications planning "The transformation of calories into words, of words into money, and of money into calories again are the three basic cycles in a freelance writer's metabolism." /Mary Kittredge, _Poison Pen_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 05:31:08 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry At 02:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >Ann Norcross wrote: >> I get tired just thinking about >>typing all those "/i /I" tags. Ideally I would like to type the name and >>then press a key to surround the name with the italic tags. My second >>thought is to enter them all without italic tags but with a special >>character at the end (Echinacia@, for example) and do a global replace >>later. Any other suggestions? > I use Cindex and create an abbreviation for entries with lots of control characters or type codes. Works like a charm. In essence you specify keystrokes (let's say--ech--) and each time you enter ech, the full \iEchinacia\I sequence appear in the entry. > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:46:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry Pam Rider wrote: > > At 02:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Ann Norcross wrote: > >> I get tired just thinking about > >>typing all those "/i /I" tags. Ideally I would like to type the name and > >>then press a key to surround the name with the italic tags. My second > >>thought is to enter them all without italic tags but with a special > >>character at the end (Echinacia@, for example) and do a global replace > >>later. Any other suggestions? > > > I use Cindex and create an abbreviation for entries with lots of control > characters or type codes. Works like a charm. > > In essence you specify keystrokes (let's say--ech--) and each time you enter > ech, the full \iEchinacia\I sequence appear in the entry. > > > Pam Rider > > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@powergrid.electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com This works well if I have a few names repeated several times; in this book I have a few hundred names each used once or, at most, twice. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:27:29 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry Ann, If you bring your Cindex file into Word for formatting and shipping as an RTF this will be an easy fix. Using your special character at the end of the word would make it easy to write a Word macro to automatically format the text as Italic and then remove the character. Let me know if you need assistance. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:37 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry I think that a global replace for "dummy" characters or a set key would either work well, depending on druthers of the indexer. I would not enter characters for type effects with abbreviation, because the form automatically means an extra space gets inserted. This sort of brainstorming helps us all. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:23:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Botanical names Thanks for all the suggestions on italics. Now, for all you gardeners: help needed on binomial nomenclature! Despite the "bi" in "binomial," plants seem to have three parts to their names: genus/species, common, and variety. The publisher wants genus species in italics, common in plain text, and variety in single quotes. So far so good. That gives us the following entries (pretend the italics are there): goldenrod (Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks') 111-112 Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks' (goldenrod) 111-112 Question: do you expect to see the variety name as a primary index entry? Both Taylor's Guide and Rodale do not, so I'm leaning towards "No" as my answer. This book is directed towards novices and beginners; might they want to look up 'Fireworks' rather than Goldenrod (Solidago rugoso)? Is it a bad idea to train them with this index to expect something they won't find in other gardening books? Thanks for any ideas. Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:24:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Botanical names Ann gave this example and asked: > >goldenrod (Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks') 111-112 >Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks' (goldenrod) 111-112 > >Question: do you expect to see the variety name as a primary index >entry? Both Taylor's Guide and Rodale do not, so I'm leaning towards >"No" as my answer. Definitely "no" -- the variety name should never be indexed separately. Now, suppose you have several Solidago species? How does the publisher expect you to handle that? Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:57:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI meeting and work In a message dated 97-01-25 10:44:12 EST, you write: > How valuable would > attendance at the upcoming annual meeting of the ASI be in terms of finding > indexing jobs? ...... Can one reasonably expect that attendance > will bring in work so that the expense is a wise investment? Any thoughts > on this would be welcome. Jim, In my humble opinion, attending the ASI annual conference is a very worthwhile investment. When I attended my first conference, it was great to meet people face to face that I had "met" online in index-l. In addition to networking with publishers and letting them know your area of expertise, I think it's valuable to network with other indexers and let them know your area of expertise too. You never know when another indexer will remember meeting/speaking with you, and ask if you can take on an index for them when they're too busy. I also think these conferences are invaluable for the seminars about different topics in indexing. Like most indexers, I usually work alone, so I think these seminars are very important for my professional growth and development, as well as being a business write-off. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:40:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Botanical names Elinor Lindheimer wrote: > > Ann gave this example and asked: > > > >goldenrod (Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks') 111-112 > >Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks' (goldenrod) 111-112 > > > >Question: do you expect to see the variety name as a primary index > >entry? Both Taylor's Guide and Rodale do not, so I'm leaning towards > >"No" as my answer. > > Definitely "no" -- the variety name should never be indexed separately. > Now, suppose you have several Solidago species? How does the publisher > expect you to handle that? Hmmm. No guidelines. Would this be correct: Solidago (goldenrod) caesia 23 rugosa 'Fireworks' 111-112 virgaurea 65-67 Would you put the common name in parens like that, or have two separate primary entries, one for goldenrod and one for Solidago? I'm leaning towards the latter, I think. Here's the only other rule they gave, and I confess I don't really know what it means. There are no italics in the examples they use: "If the variety name is the same as the common name, always use the single quotes, regardless of whether it comes after the Genus name or as part of common name of plant (Most common examples: 'Autumn Joy sedum and 'Cerise Queen' yarrow)." So does that give me: yarrow 'Cerise Queen' fernleaf common 'Moonshine' 'Paprika' and Achillea filipendulina millefolium millefolium 'Cerise Queen' millefolium 'Paprika' 'Moonshine' and 'Cerise queen' yarrow common yarrow fernleaf yarrow 'Moonshine' yarrrow 'Paprika' yarrow or is this last bunch incorrect because they are variety names? Damn, this is confusing! Thank you for your help. Any published (and downloadable from the Web) guidelines I could download and follow? Keeping in mind that this is a book for beginners. Ann P.S. I will take further discussion with Elinor off-list unless others are interested. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Botanical names Binomial nomenclature is an interesting subject, especially when it is related to indexing! I have done several indexes with taxonomical issues and each discipline seems to present subtle little differences. My comments are sandwiched in between your comments; hope it isn't too confusing. At 01:40 PM 1/26/97 -0500, Ann wrote: >Would this be correct: > >Solidago (goldenrod) > caesia 23 > rugosa 'Fireworks' 111-112 > virgaurea 65-67 Not really, according to Wellisch. You need to put the entire name on one line (this is where the abbreviation function comes in handy); refer to Wellisch, Indexing from A to Z (p. 307) on binomials where he says "The two parts of taxonomic binomials should never be separated in indexing but should always be listed as a unit...', so your example should be Solidago caesia (goldenrod) as Wellisch indcates on page 255, in the section on botanical names. But he also suggests that if run-in index style is used, that "when more than one species of a genus is to be indexed, as in gardening books or in field guides to animals, their names are often listed in run-in style, e.g., Rosa, 67-69; alba, 73; centifolia, 71; chinensis, 83, 85; foetida, 92; rugosa, 75" The Chicago Manual of Style (CMS) has a section on scientific terminology (pages 275-77). They recommend looking at CBE Style Manual Committee's Scientific Style and Format (6th ed., Cambridge University Press, 1994). In Indexing the Medical and Biological Sciences (Blake, et al., Society of Indexers Occasional Paper no. 3, 1995), there is another style, which would be like the following in either in indented or run-in style: Gleditsia triacanthos, 103; 'Sunburst', 155 Thymus, 142, 156, 157; T. druceri, 156; T. vulgaris, 142 In Rodale's Illustrated Encycopledia of Herbs, the arrangement is indented and the names of the genera, if there is more than one species, are given as (following Wellisch's convention): Ephedra major, 184 Ephedra nevadenis, 184 Ephedra sinica, 184 Ephedra spp. (ssp. should be in roman, not italics), 281 > >Would you put the common name in parens like that, or have two separate >primary entries, one for goldenrod and one for Solidago? I'm leaning >towards the latter, I think. > In regard to the common name, I would, if I had room, put in the common name in parens, but I would also have a separate entry for the common name with a cross-reference to the scientific name. This last is the style used in the Ortho books, which are for beginners and others as well. Rodale's herb book would be greatly enhanced by this, if they had used it. >Here's the only other rule they gave, and I confess I don't really know >what it means. There are no italics in the examples they use: "If the >variety name is the same as the common name, always use the single >quotes, regardless of whether it comes after the Genus name or as part >of common name of plant (Most common examples: 'Autumn Joy sedum and >'Cerise Queen' yarrow)." Not seeing the book, I can't say much more than your best bet is to ask the press about this, if they can clarifiy this and be more specific or you could try to find an index of a similar book that the press has done. Asking for guidelines, sample indexes from the press, or having a set of specifications by the phone to refer to when you get a contact for a job is a big help, believe me. Variety names are not indexed separately. > >So does that give me: > >yarrow > 'Cerise Queen' > fernleaf > common > 'Moonshine' > 'Paprika' > No, see above. (Ortho does do something like the following, however.) >and > >Achillea > filipendulina > millefolium > millefolium 'Cerise Queen' > millefolium 'Paprika' > 'Moonshine' > >and > >'Cerise queen' yarrow > common yarrow > fernleaf yarrow >'Moonshine' yarrrow >'Paprika' yarrow > >or is this last bunch incorrect because they are variety names? Variety names are not indexed separately. > Any published (and >downloadable from the Web) guidelines I could download and follow? >Keeping in mind that this is a book for beginners. > Try http://matrix.nal.usda.gov:8080/star/supragenericname.html which leads to a series of searchable databases on plant taxonomy. Hope any of this helps in some way! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry I use Macrex, not Cindex, but I bet Cindex has some equivalent. I use this shortcut for entering endnotes, which need to be in curly brackets and, for some clients, italicized: 124{^n^4}. I use the keyboard macro function, which assigns keystrokes to one of the function keys with alt; the function enters {^n^} and backspaces so that I'm ready to enter the note number. ^Much^ faster. Do Mi, inveterate believer in saving keystrokes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:14:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Miata U. Edoga" Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex I am new to the field of indexing and I am getting ready to purchase computer equipment and one of the indexing programs. I am wondering if anyone has any feedback as to why they selected one program over another. Macrex and Cindex appear to be the most frequently used. Are they basically equivalent? I welcome any responses! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:51:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: designations for figures In-Reply-To: <199701260503.XAA28051@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I've always thought it ridiculous to have: > >Heading, 12-14, 12illus., 13illus., 14illus., 17-19, 17illus., 18illus., >19illus. > >Yeah Ok so I exaggerated a bit for effect but I think > >Heading, 12-14, 17-19 > >just serves the user a lot better. > >Kevin Mulrooney Even in an art history book? I would still do this: Heading, 12-14, 12-14 (illus.), 17-19, 17-19 (illus.) I guess it depends on what you think the reader's needs are. Let's say someone wants to know about calligraphy in Islamic art. I maintain that this kind of entry might better serve the reader's needs than suppressing the illustrations would: calligraphy albums, 212 biographies of calligraphers, 212-13, 224n.3 the circle as proptioning device in, 189 as divinely inspired, 197 and the internal senses, 205 on Iranian monuments, 37 Koranic, 104-106, 105 (illus.) kufic, 10, 21, 34 (illus.), 107,114, 125n.39, 125n.50 in nineteenth-century Qajar scrolls, 37 proportioned script, 104, 188 and squared grids, 49 and Sunnism, 107 OK, my point is that some readers of books of art history, art, architecture, etc., might want to zero in on the illustrations just as much as they might want to zero in on one of the subs. I suppose I could have just used "illustrations" as a sub, but that would have added a line and actually lost some info about the illustrations. Even in other kinds of books, say biographies, some readers might want to go right to the photo. Why should we deny them that? I'm assuming here that space isn't especially a problem. When it is, then obviously the indexer has to make choices about what to leave out. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:34:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Botanical names Ann wrote: >P.S. I will take further discussion with Elinor off-list unless others >are interested. I am interested in seeing the discussion. Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: professional activities survey 1997 Professional Activities and Salary Survey Date Extended If you haven't filled out you 1997 Professional Activities and Salary Survey, please take a few minutes to do so. Most people report needing only 15 minutes. We are extending our date until February 15. The envelope which was enclosed could be used for both the survey and the indexer listing form. If you have already used the envelope for one or the other, the professional activities survey can be sent directly to Sandi Schroeder, 2606 Old Mill Lane, Rolling Meadows, IL 60008, and the indexer form directly to the Seattle office. If the same envelope is being used, care is being taken to maintain confidentiality of the surveys in that an impartial person is opening all envelopes and separating the forms. If you have misplaced your form, please e-mail me your address and I will download one to you. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:35:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "James L. Curtis" Subject: ASI and work To everyone who responded to my inquiry about the upcoming ASI meeting: thanks, and see you in Winston-Salem. Jim Curtis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:05:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Macrex vs Cindex << I am new to the field of indexing and I am getting ready to purchase computer equipment and one of the indexing programs. I am wondering if anyone has any feedback as to why they selected one program over another. Macrex and Cindex appear to be the most frequently used. Are they basically equivalent? I welcome any responses! >> Miata, Try before you buy, if at all possible. They are very different and one will probably feel more comfortable. I wish I had. Jill Barrett Indexing & Editorial Services Newport News, VA USA jillbarret@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:56:35 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jimmy Kaml Subject: Need listserv email address In-Reply-To: <199701261758.AA027621480@hal822.unison.com> All, Would somebody please forward me the email address to unsubscribe from this list? I've misplaced the instructions. TIA, Jimmy Kaml jimmy kaml..........technical writer...........unison software jimmy_kaml@unison.com.....tel:512/478-0611...811 barton springs road http://www.unison.com.....fax:512/479-0735..........austin,texas,usa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:22:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Frances B. King" Subject: Re: Botanical names At 11:23 AM 1/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks for all the suggestions on italics. Now, for all you gardeners: >help needed on binomial nomenclature! > >Despite the "bi" in "binomial," plants seem to have three parts to their >names: genus/species, common, and variety. The publisher wants genus >species in italics, common in plain text, and variety in single quotes. >So far so good. That gives us the following entries (pretend the italics >are there): > >goldenrod (Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks') 111-112 >Solidago rugosa 'Fireworks' (goldenrod) 111-112 > >Question: do you expect to see the variety name as a primary index >entry? Both Taylor's Guide and Rodale do not, so I'm leaning towards >"No" as my answer. This book is directed towards novices and beginners; >might they want to look up 'Fireworks' rather than Goldenrod (Solidago >rugoso)? Is it a bad idea to train them with this index to expect >something they won't find in other gardening books? Thanks for any >ideas. > >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services > >Ann- I am an indexing novice but a professional botanist (the two are closer than you might think) and can help a little. The "binomial" refers to the genus and species which are based in Latin and therefore italicized. Any subspecies (ssp.) or varietal names would also be italicized. It is the cultivated variety names that are in single quotes. _Solidago rugosa_ var. _villosa_ cv. 'Dwarf Golden Rod' (Goldenrod) would be the name if 'Dwarf Golden Rod' was selected from a specific natural variety of S. rugosa. 95% of the names you will encounter will be straight-forward and easy. Plants are seldom listed under their cultivated varietal names unless the whole book is about the single genus and/or the name is particularly famous. If there are several species of Goldenrod, you might see Goldenrod, 'Dwarf Golden Rod' (Solidago rugosa var. villosa) 'Fireworks' (Solidago rugosa) Hard-leaved (Solidago rigida) Solidago rigida (hard-leaved goldenrod) rugosa 'Fireworks' (rough-stemmed goldenrod) rugosa var. villosa 'Dwarf Golden Rod' (goldenrod) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:38:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex You wrote: > >I am new to the field of indexing and I am getting ready to purchase computer >equipment and one of the indexing programs. I am wondering if anyone has any >feedback as to why they selected one program over another. Macrex and Cindex >appear to be the most frequently used. Are they basically equivalent? I >welcome any responses! > I picked Cindex after trying both it and Macrex demos out. The two items that swayed me to Cindex was the ease of locator usage (Cindex says "anything can be used as a locator") which is delightful when you're doing electronic or web-based documents. The other point was the higher entry capacity of Cindex's Standard version (65,000 entries) compared to Macrex's 10,000. The only other issue in picking Cindex was the level of support and continuing activity into upgrades and cross-platform use (PC & Mac versions). I like companies that keep improving their products. I couldn't see much of that from the Macrex people. It's been awhile since I've responded to a message here because of the problems in replying to the group. I hope this goes through. Linda Kenny Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael C. Rossa" Subject: Re: Need listserv email address You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF INDEX-L" command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). Mike Rossa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:52:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Earl Morton Subject: Re: Macrex vs Cindex Miata asked: >> I am new to the field of indexing and I am getting ready to purchase computer equipment and one of the indexing programs. I am wondering if anyone has any feedback as to why they selected one program over another. Macrex and Cindex appear to be the most frequently used. Are they basically equivalent? << and Jill responded: >> Try before you buy, if at all possible. They are very different and one will probably feel more comfortable. I wish I had. << I am giving some thought to joining your ranks, also. I am now a tech writer, and in this industry, it helps--and is sometimes necessary--to have and know ALL the tools, or at least the major ones. Some clients need you to use MS Word, others FrameMaker, etc. Is this not true in the indexing industry? What kind of output do you deliver to your clients? What media, file format, etc.? Thanks! Earl Morton WorkgWords@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:24:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: directory listing AH! I just really read through my form and discovered that the ASI directory listing is due on 1/31. So, I need to mail it out today. Goes to show, no matter how swamped, I should read my mail thoroughly when it arrives and not just glance at it and throw it into a pile. My question is, those of you who are listing, are you listing under your last names. Let me try a clearer way of asking (please forgive me, I finished a project very late last night/early this morning), I have thus far used Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services as my business name. Do you opine that I would be better off listing under "L" or "F"? For some of you, this is not an issue. You were smart enough to use just your last names. In fact, I may solve the problem and immediately abbreviate. Thanks, Leslie LLF Editorial Services (the shorthand version) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Botanical names Ann and Elinor, Please do not disappear offlist. Am interested in why Elinor responded with such an emphatic, "No." Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:53:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Macrex vs Cindex At 12:52 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Earl Morton wrote: >I am giving some thought to joining your ranks, also. I am now a tech writer, >and in this industry, it helps--and is sometimes necessary--to have and know >ALL the tools, or at least the major ones. Some clients need you to use MS >Word, others FrameMaker, etc. Is this not true in the indexing industry? What >kind of output do you deliver to your clients? What media, file format, etc.? Earl, there are really two separate issues here (leaving Framemaker aside for the moment). Most back-of-the-book indexing and periodical indexing is done without embedding (though this is probably going to change eventually). To accomplish the initial indexing chore, you can use anything from a shoebox and index cards to a sophisticated indexing program such as Macrex or Cindex. No matter what path you take, you will end up with a data file on disk. THEN you concern yourself with tweaking the file to the client's satisfaction. You edit, clean up, rearrange if necessary, write a headnote, and so on...and you save it in a format that your client can use. Some people are able to accomplish all this using just their indexing program, but most of us export the basic index into a word processing program and do our editing there. Any modern WP program can export files in at least a dozen formats; mainly, it seems, folks find .RTF to be most successful, especially if they are going to be emailing the completed index. So...during the first stage of actually producing the index, you use whatever you feel most comfortable with. During the second stage, you concern yourself with client requirements. Those of us who do embedded indexes do have to own the program that the client uses, but as I said, that situation is still not quite so common. I most often am asked to provide a paper copy of the index and a file on disk for the compositor to use to set the index in type. This can be an ASCII file (least satisfactory, as it does not retain any formatting), an .RTF file, or a file in any of the common WP programs (Word, WordPerfect, and so on). More and more often, I am requested to send the index as an attached file via email. In that case, .RTF format works great and my Eudora mailing program takes care of encoding/decoding quite invisibly (as it does on the other end). I'm sure others will chime in with their thoughts. Thanks for asking! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:22:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Claire LaForce Subject: Re: Need listserv email address In-Reply-To: <199701271503.KAA01914@ils.unc.edu> Apologies, I also need to know how to unsubscribe. I swore I would never use the list to do this, but I've tried twice and it hasn't worked, so please send correct instructions. Thank you for your patience. ######################################### Claire LaForce (919)969-7831 School of Information & Library Science University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill ########################################## ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Indexing tools (was Macrex vs CINDEX) In a message dated 97-01-27 12:59:41 EST, you write: > I am now a tech writer, > and in this industry, it helps--and is sometimes necessary--to have and know > ALL the tools, or at least the major ones. Some clients need you to use MS > Word, others FrameMaker, etc. Is this not true in the indexing industry? > What > kind of output do you deliver to your clients? What media, file format, etc.? Earl, I also come from a technical writing background, and you're right--you need to have the proper tools if you hope to write indexes for technical documentation. Most of my clients want embedded indexes written for documents in MS Word or FrameMaker, so I have to be familiar with those tools. I deliver the revised electronic files, complete with index entries or tokens, embedded in them. Depending on the size of the files, I return them via email or on a ZIP disk. For publishers who don't need embedded indexes, I use CINDEX to create an ASCII file that I ship on a 3.5" disk. Regardless of my electronic delivery method, I *always* deliver a hard-copy of the index too. Hope this helps, Peg Mauer Communication Link ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:51:45 -0600 Reply-To: jackie@mwt.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jacolin R. Hagen" Subject: Re: Need listserv email address Claire LaForce wrote: > > Apologies, I also need to know how to unsubscribe. I swore I would never > use the list to do this, but I've tried twice and it hasn't worked, so > please send correct instructions. Thank you for your patience. > > ######################################### > Claire LaForce (919)969-7831 > School of Information & Library Science > University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill > ########################################## Q: How do I unsubscribe? A: Send a message to: LISTSERV@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU Leave the subject line blank, and include on the first line of the message: UNSUB TECHWR-L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:56:19 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: FrameMaker For those of you in index-land who are familiar with FrameMaker (FM), I sure could use some guidance, assistance, help. We do a periodical index using FM to format the index which has been compiled in Cuadra STAR. The FM document for the annual is 458 pages long. It takes forever (or _almost_ forever) to do find and change searches when corrections need to be made to the same citation in different places. Is there some way to speed this up? I've turned off the Feather command which helped imperceptibly. The quarterly indexes run from 130-150 pages each so it isn't as much of a problem. It also takes a l-o-n-g time to reformat each time we delete a line or make any other change which affects the length of a column and, therefore, the length of other columns. Breaking the index into chunks is not an option. Suggestions? Tricks? Tips? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:16:57 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry Ann: When typing long lists of plant names, I generally shorten the task by entering the italic codes for Cindex as keys, so I can use a function key instead of the keystrokes. I find this reduces the errors I otherwise made when hitting the wrong code following the \. One thing I have done is enter all of the plant names as one pass through the book on a day when I'm not feeling very much like working. That way I get turn a lot of pages fast but don't have the same kind of thinking between entries that I find I need a clear brain for--better to enter subject categories on days when I have that kind of energy. Another way I have done this is hire a temp to enter the plant names (I have a friend who has done this for me, as she knows her plants and occasionally wants to type for a few hours here and there). That reduces my tedium and leaves me free for the subject entries. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:32:02 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret Ulber Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex ---------- From: Indexer's Discussion Group on behalf of Miata U. Edoga Sent: Sunday, January 26, 1997 7:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex I am new to the field of indexing and I am getting ready to purchase computer equipment and one of the indexing programs. I am wondering if anyone has any feedback as to why they selected one program over another. Macrex and Cindex appear to be the most frequently used. Are they basically equivalent? I welcome any responses! Hello all, First, I must say I have never sent a message to a list before, so please bear with me if I do something dumb. You're asking about Macrex vs. Cindex at a good time: our Wisconsin ASI chapter meeting was a demo of both (plus Hyperindex). I gave the Macrex demo. After seeing Cindex in operation, I would say that both programs do nearly all the same things, just in slightly different ways. You would probably be very happy with either one. Apparently, Macrex can give you some nifty statistics about your index (density [entries per page], # of pg refs per entry, breakdown of length of entries) that Cindex can't. (Cindex users: correct me if I'm wrong!) I like this feature. I also like the Macrex flip and half-flip capabilities (for double posting). Flip automatically moves the "and," "for," etc. to the proper position in the new entry; the half flip deletes these words. Also, it's my impression that entering and doing things in Macrex takes somewhat fewer keystrokes (but maybe I'm just biased). However, both are "clunky" compared to modern word processing programs and take quite a bit of memorization and patience to learn---but are worth the effort. (I' ve heard that Cindex will be coming out in a Windows-based version. Don't know about Macrex.) Macrex has no spell checker, which is just fine with me. I would export to Word and do my spelling checks there anyway. I also print out my final hard copy and make my diskette copy from Word. It's so much easier to do things like that (and choose fonts, page numbering, etc.) from a really slick, specially designed word processing program! I've never had any problem contacting Macrex (and haven't had to more th an two times). When I was deciding between the two, the ASI member discount for Macrex tipped the balance. Meg Ulber M_Ulber@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:38:47 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: Re: Need listserv email address At 03:22 PM 1/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >Apologies, I also need to know how to unsubscribe. I swore I would never >use the list to do this, but I've tried twice and it hasn't worked, so >please send correct instructions. Thank you for your patience. ... The magic message is: signoff INDEX-L (try not to include a signature or a subject line). If you subscribed under a different email address than you use now, things get more complicated. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:23:02 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: italic text, techniques for data entry At 03:32 PM 1/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hi -- I store the italic/ bold etc codes in the function keys. This reduces >the typing to only 2 extra keystrokes -- eg: F3= /i; F4 = /I. I too am >looking forward to the Windows version! > >Re: >>any hints for speeding data entry. I get tired just thinking about >>typing all those "/i /I" tags [in Cindex] >>Ann Norcross >>Crossover Information Services > >Christine Jacobs >cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Yes -- me, too. One of the first things I did in configuring Cindex v.4.whatever and then v.5.0 to my own tastes *years* ago was to put /l and /L on F4 and F5... and /lSee/L and /lSee Also/L on F8 and F9. Each pair surrounds one of the gaps in the row of function keys, which makes it easy to remember where they are -- except when I'm doing indexing on my laptop, which hasn't *got* function-key-gaps! ("Give us back our gaps!") Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:31:28 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: directory listing At 01:24 PM 1/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >My question is, those of you who are listing, are you listing under your last >names. Let me try a clearer way of asking (please forgive me, I finished a >project very late last night/early this morning), I have thus far used Leslie >Leland Frank Editorial Services as my business name. Do you opine that I >would be better off listing under "L" or "F"? For some of you, this is not an >issue. You were smart enough to use just your last names. In fact, I may >solve the problem and immediately abbreviate. >Thanks, >Leslie >LLF Editorial Services (the shorthand version) ...or, you could modify your business name to Frankly Editorial Service... Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith1@swbell.net Smith Editorial Services CIS: 73177,366 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:11:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Book Review: Read Me First! How convenient that _Read Me First: A Style Guide for the Computer Industry_ (which I recently ordered) arrived when I happened to be between indexing projects. :-) Naturally, I turned directly to Chapter 9, Indexing, and I'm delighted to say that I was very impressed with what I found there. As the introduction to Chapter 9 alludes, indexes enhance product usability. In addition to affecting customers' perceptions of the product, indexes affect customers' perceptions of the developer's credibility. Many surveys have shown that one of the biggest complaints end users of technical manuals have is the inability to find the information they need. That doesn't have to be the case. If technical writers apply the guidelines in this Chapter, they will avoid some of the most common indexing pitfalls. Some of the best guidelines focus on strategies for developing concise, specific index entries and on techniques for enhancing the index by double-posting entries, using meaningful cross-references, finding the right balance (not over-indexing or under-indexing), and editing the index. All in all, I must say, the indexing guidelines in this style guide are much better than the indexing guidelines I've seen in other books on developing documentation for the computer industry. BTW, in case you're wondering, I have no connection with Sun Microsystems, Inc., and they did not ask me to write this review! ;-) If you want to find the book, here's the info you need: Title: Read Me First: A Style Guide for the Computer Industry - book & CD-ROM edition by Sun Technical Publications (Editor) Published by Prentice Hall Computer Books (January 1997) ISBN: 0134553470, Paperback - 250 pages Lori ********************************************************************* Schedule - INDEXING SKILLS WORKSHOP FOR TECHNICAL COMMUNICATORS: MARCH: Boston, New York, Washington, DC APRIL: Minneapolis, Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles JUNE: Orlando, Chicago, and Denver Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ********************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:16:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Native American Indian names Hello all: For reassurance, is this how you would treat Native American Indian names? Yellow Thunder, Raymond Bad Heart Bull, Wesley for two people named Wesley Bad Heart Bull and Raymond Yellow Thunder. Thanks! Barbara Stroup ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Native American Indian names Yes, this is right. For backup documentation, assurance, etc., you can follow AACR2, rule 22.5C4: "Other compound surnames...Enter under the first element of the compound surname unless the person's language is Portuguese. If the person's language is Portuguese, enter under the last element." They give this example for Native American names: Hungry Wolf, Adolf At 08:16 AM 1/28/97 -0500, Barbara Stroup wrote: >Hello all: >For reassurance, is this how you would treat Native American Indian names? > >Yellow Thunder, Raymond > >Bad Heart Bull, Wesley > > >for two people named Wesley Bad Heart Bull and Raymond Yellow Thunder. > >Thanks! >Barbara Stroup > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: directory listing In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970127212800.0068b0c0@swbell.net> My question: what is the purpose/point of a double listing in the directory? And if it serves a useful purpose, what do you list the second entry as? I use a business name, Directions Unlimited. Should I use a second listing under my real name? If so, to what advantage? PS Thanks to whomever extended the deadline, and for the reminder to get it in. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:56:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Directory listing address I sent my rate survey in the prepaid envelope and now am trying to mail my directory listing, but find no address on it. I thought there was a posting on this recently, but can't find it. Where do I send the directlry listing? Dick Richard (Dick) Evans Infodex Indexing Services, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:23:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: asi@well.com (Bonnie Parks-Davies) From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: search for indexer: ecology, botany >From: "Aimlee D. Laderman" > > >I am searching for an experienced indexer to prepare my book >COASTALLY RESTRICTED FORESTS. Should be scientifically literate, esp. in >area of ecology; comfortable with botanical Latin names. Preferably in/near New >Haven CT or Woods Hole MA. Samples of work appreciated to help me choose >the right person. >Do you recommend an indexing program? > I am now proofreading pageproofs of the 320pg >book to be published by Oxford University Press: the need is NOW! Your >help appreciated. > > >Aimlee D. Laderman >Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies >360 Prospect St. MARSH HALL >New Haven CT 06511 >T: 203-432-3335 F: 203-432-3809 > >Swamp Research Center >P.O.Box 689 >Woods Hole MA 02543 >T: 508-548-5618 F: 508-548-2822 [when on site only] > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:48:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: directory listing The deadline was extended for the Professional Activities and Salary Survey, not the Indexer Services. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:56:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Directory listing address The Directory listing can be sent directly to the Seattle office of ASI. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:00:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debbie Baier Organization: Writing and Editing Services Subject: Re: FrameMaker Lonergan Lynn wrote: > > For those of you in index-land who are familiar with FrameMaker (FM), > I sure could use some guidance, assistance, help. > We do a periodical index using FM to format the index which has been > compiled in Cuadra STAR. The FM document for the annual is 458 pages long. > It takes forever (or _almost_ forever) to do find and change searches when > corrections need to be made to the same citation in different places. Is > there some way to speed this up? I've turned off the Feather command which > helped imperceptibly. The quarterly indexes run from 130-150 pages each so > it isn't as much of a problem. It also takes a l-o-n-g time to reformat > each time we delete a line or make any other change which affects the > length of a column and, therefore, the length of other columns. Breaking > the index into chunks is not an option. > Suggestions? Tricks? Tips? I've found that docs over 100-200 pages can be a bit slow in FM (also depending on the speed of your system). Have you considered breaking the doc into maybe three files (I usually have a separate doc for each chapter) and using the FM book feature? The index and toc are separate files, but the main doc would be divided. Downside: you have to open each doc to import format changes, but that can be a relatively minor thing if you use the 'open all files' feature in the book file. Macros are another option. With book files, page numbers are nicely handled. It's a great feature. Feel free to email me privately if this sounds feasible and you'd like details. Debbie Baier write1@earthlink.net Writing and Editing Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:03:00 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debbie Baier Organization: Writing and Editing Services Subject: Re: FrameMaker Lonergan Lynn wrote: > > For those of you in index-land who are familiar with FrameMaker ---snip--- Also, forgot to mention, if you haven't already you may want to check out these newsgroups: comp.text.frame bit.listserv.techwr-l ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:39:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: CINDEX 6.0 ALTER command I have just been informed by an editor that the pagination is going to change by 1 less page after page 6 in the book that I am doing right now. I have never used the ALTER command and would like to have some input from others who have used this comamnd; I have read the manual and just want to be sure that there is not some small thing that can happen that might not be mentioned in the manual. Would the command read like ALTER/PAGE=6- -1 [enter]? Thanks for the help. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:43:06 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex In-Reply-To: <199701280507.XAA08933@mixcom.mixcom.com> I use Cindex on a PowerCurve (PowerMac clone) and love it. I can't speak to the Macrex vs. Cindex issue (Macrex isn't available for the Mac, so I haven't tried it), but in addition to trying out Macrex and Cindex if you have the opportunity, you should also try out both PC and Mac. I have used both and greatly prefer the Mac. Please, no flames, folks--all I said was that I prefer the Mac myself. Many people prefer PC. Earl Morton asked: >What >kind of output do you deliver to your clients? What media, file format, etc.? > Actually, one of the things I like about the Mac is that it *seems* better at going cross-platform than the PC is, juding from postings I've read here. In any case, to answer your question, most of my clients accept files in MS Word (which is my word processor of choice), although a few want WordPerfect (which I can easily save Word files to). When I send disks, some clients can take a Mac disk, others want a PC disk--I can give them whichever one they want. Large publishers seem to be able to handle just about anything nowadays, I suppose because authors send files in different formats. I also send a hard copy with the disk. When I send the index as an e-mail file attachment, I (now know to) ask what kind of computer the e-mail will be received on. If Mac, I send the file (using Eudora Light; how good of them to spell it "light" and not "lite"!) BinHexed (i.e., compressed and encrypted); if PC, I send it Apple Doubled. Meg Ulber added: >However, both [Cindex and Macrex] are "clunky" >compared to modern word processing programs and take quite a bit of >memorization and patience to learn---but are worth the effort. Hi, Meg. I'm surprised to hear you say that, or maybe I don't know what you mean by "clunky." I don't find Cindex for the Mac at all clunky. While I was waiting for indexing software to be available for the Mac, I wrote indexes in MS Word. Did you ever try to alphabetize in word processing? Or jump through hoops when doing a run-in index to be able to sort the whole index but keep the subs in their proper places? Or end up having to move all the entries that start with quote marks? Or have to check all the cross-refs manually. Talk about clunky! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:59:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Answering machine tapes Here's a little tip if you use an answering machine. {Like who doesn't}. I'd been getting these weird messages for months on my answering machine. It would be the standard operator's voice "please hang up and dial again..." followed by the ding-ding-ding you get when you leave your phone off the hook. If I had more than one message, the first would invariably be this message followed by a normal one. It got extremely annoying and since it only occurred when I was gone and I never got any crank calls in terms of people hanging up without identifying themselves when I was home, I was beginning to think someone in my neighborhood was harrassing me. As in someone without much of a life who sat by their window and waited till I left then rang me, although that seems hard to swallow since my phone number is unlisted. So I called this one friend who knows about phone "phreaking" (reads "2600", you know the type) and he explained it could be a bad microcassette tape. Something about a small piece of foil that when dirty could cause this. Sure enough I got a new tape and shazam: no more problem. My answering machine was over 5 years old and on the original tape. I would recommend people replace their microcasette tape on a regular basis, maybe once a year. Now I wonder about all the business I may have lost!!! boo hoo Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:02:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex At 11:43 AM 1/28/97 -0600, you wrote: >Hi, Meg. I'm surprised to hear you say that, or maybe I don't know what you >mean by "clunky." I don't find Cindex for the Mac at all clunky. While I >was waiting for indexing software to be available for the Mac, I wrote >indexes in MS Word. Did you ever try to alphabetize in word processing? Or >jump through hoops when doing a run-in index to be able to sort the whole >index but keep the subs in their proper places? Or end up having to move >all the entries that start with quote marks? Or have to check all the >cross-refs manually. Talk about clunky! Not clunky in terms of indexing functions, but certainly clunky in terms of having to use a DOS command line interface instead of a graphical interface. When you get really proficient in CINDEX, you start writing some seriously complex commands and have no way to save them for future use *. Sometimes I feel like I am writing little APL programs on the command line. I'm really looking forward to the Windows version. * Yes, I know you can assign them to PF keys, but there are only so many keys. Dick Richard (Dick) Evans Infodex Indexing Services, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:05:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex (Mac v. PC) No flame war here. Just my comments.:D I have also used both Mac and PC, but not with Cindex. I used a smaller, less powerful indexing program on the Mac for years, and swore I would never go PC. I ate my words a year ago. Bought Cindex and a new system, PC. I dread working on the Mac. I love my PC. It may have to do with the fact that I get more pains from using the mouse than from using the keyboard. It may be that I love Cindex and all its power so much (yes, I do love it), it may be I just love the ergonomic keyboard I use on the PC, or a combination of all 3. Now, I know you can get Cindex for the Mac, so that argument is out, and you can also get an ergonomic keyboard for the Mac. But, you still have to click a lot more. And for me, that leaves me still loving my PC. I haven't tossed the Mac, and still use it for various things. But if I had to choose..... Leslie LLF Editorial Services PS Sandy, thanks for the Directory clarification ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:18:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: saving commands In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970128180216.5177c9da@pop.ral.mindspring.com> Dick mentioned saving complex commands to F keys, of which there are only so many. We Mac users have Quickeys, which I already used to customize Cindex and to save sequences. Do you have such a program? It's worth the $60 just to not have to type my name and addresses 20 million times. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:53:02 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rashidah Z. Hakeem" Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex In-Reply-To: <9701280038.AA15497@bme1.utmem.edu> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Margaret Ulber wrote: Peace, > ---------- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group on behalf of Miata U. Edoga > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 1997 7:14 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Macrex v. Cindex > > I am new to the field of indexing and I am getting ready to purchase computer > equipment and one of the indexing programs. I am wondering if anyone has any > feedback as to why they selected one program over another. Macrex and Cindex > appear to be the most frequently used. Are they basically equivalent? I > welcome any responses! > > Hello all, > First, I must say I have never sent a message to a list before, so please bear > with me if I do something dumb. > You're asking about Macrex vs. Cindex at a good time: our Wisconsin ASI > chapter meeting was a demo of both (plus Hyperindex). Peace to all, I am lurking while taking the USDA course. Just wondered if anyone has feedback on HyperIndex. Thanks I gave the Macrex demo. > this feature. I also like the Macrex flip and half-flip capabilities (for > double posting). Flip automatically moves the "and," "for," etc. to the > proper position in the new entry; the half flip deletes these words. Also, > it's my impression that entering and doing things in Macrex takes somewhat > fewer keystrokes (but maybe I'm just biased). However, both are "clunky" > compared to modern word processing programs and take quite a bit of > memorization and patience to learn---but are worth the effort. (I' ve heard > that Cindex will be coming out in a Windows-based version. Don't know about > Macrex.) > Macrex has no spell checker, which is just fine with me. I would export to > Word and do my spelling checks there anyway. I also print out my final hard > copy and make my diskette copy from Word. It's so much easier to do things > like that (and choose fonts, page numbering, etc.) from a really slick, > specially designed word processing program! > I've never had any problem contacting Macrex (and haven't had to more than > two times). > When I was deciding between the two, the ASI member discount for Macrex > tipped the balance. > > Meg Ulber > M_Ulber@msn.com > ****************************************************************************** ** Rashidah Z. Hakeem, M L S rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org M E C C A (Memphis Educational Computer Connectivity Alliance) http://www.mecca.org/ LeMoyne-Owen College voice: (901) 942-6227 fax: (901) 942-6272 ****************************************************************************** ** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:24:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: per-entry charging Hi! Here's a question: I'm about to charge per entry for the first time in my career. Special case: a textbook in which the second part is literature readings to be indexed by author and title only (that is, two entries per reading). So the editor and I decided I should charge my regular page rate for the first part of the book, and a per-reading fee (really per-entry) for the second part. I have no idea what this should be. Could anyone give me a ballpark figure for a per-entry rate? Thanks you guys--- Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:01:00 GMT0 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: Re: saving commands > > Dick mentioned saving complex commands to F keys, of which there are > only > so many. We Mac users have Quickeys, which I already used to customize > Cindex and to save sequences. Do you have such a program? It's worth the > $60 just to not have to type my name and addresses 20 million times. I have a DOS shareware program called Newkey by FAB Software (Frank A. Bell), PO Box 336, Wayland, MA 01778. It is rather old (1988) but it allows any key, or sequence of keys, to have a macro assigned to it. Macros are stored in files that can be specified by the user. If loaded before starting Cindex or Macrex it enhances the user interface remarkably. It can probably be found in shareware libraries, Compuserve etc. _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:03:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: asi@well.com (Bonnie Parks-Davies) From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: listing for ASI Jobline >From: jhbeckman@iols.com (John Beckman) > >POSITION AVAILABLE: CONTENT ANALYST > >Premier Chicago-based publisher has two immediate openings in our >indexing department in Chicago. Duties: Read and analyze many >information sources, determine posting of new/revised concepts within >established indexing framework and procedures, edit final product per >guidelines. Handle various special projects as needed. Req: two >years' indexing/copy editing experience, B.A./B.S. degree. PC skills a >must, as are strong analytical skills. Competitive salary and >promotional opportunity. Fax/mail resume and cover letter/salary >history to: Encyclopaedia Britannica, ATT: Julia Beckman, >312-294-2176, or 310 S. Michigan Ave., Chicago, IL 60604. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:15:32 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: MACREX problem / urgent Help! Can someone please tell me why MACREX seems to have grabbed my printer driver and won't turn loose? The last file I printed normally was an index file - today, no other program (except MACREX) will print. This has not happened before. I have a Compaq Presario / Canon buble jet printer / Windows 3.1 / 486. Can someone out there please tell me what to do? No one seems to be available at the MACREX telephone number and I can find nothing in any manual that seems to help either. Has anyone else had this problem? TIA Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:51:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dale Foster Subject: New Library Computer Accessory This message was posted to more than one list. Please excuse any duplication. QUICKLOOK Patent Approved (Mobile, Ala.) InfoGraphics Information Services was recently awarded a patent by the United States Patent and Trademark Office for its QUICKLOOK Computer Reference Organizer. QUICKLOOK is a new library computer accessory for displaying essential reference information near computer monitors. It has literally dozens of uses, including online public access catalogs (OPACS), cataloging data entry terminals, wordprocessing workstations, microform readers, slide viewers, computer lab terminals, and many others. It has been successfully tested on public access terminals as well as individual desktop workstations. With QUICKLOOK, librarians can put an end to unsightly sticky notes, tacky messages, and space consuming table displays. Essential reference information can be mounted at your fingertips in one convenient, efficient, and attractive location.QUICKLOOK allows users to organize information, not just display it. Computer users will find QUICKLOOK extremely useful on all type monitors. Software guides, frequently used data, instructions on navigating online library catalogs, policies, floor plans, telephone numbers, etc. are conveniently located at the user's fingertips. With the included sheet protectors, reference pages can be easily updated. QUICKLOOK is attractive, yet functional, and it saves valuable desktop space. Its informational uses are limited only by the user's imagination. QUICKLOOK is unique in its design and its approach to offering reference information to library computer users. The unique three-ring holder design allows no-hassle organization and easy turning of pages. Using the included clear plastic page protectors, pages can be viewed from both sides. Each pocket accommodates sheets up to 5 1/2" x 8 1/2" and can be easily removed for convenient updating. Index tabs are also included for instant location of contents. Up to 40 pages of text can be displayed at eye-level for easy viewing. QUICKLOOK is so versatile it can be positioned on the left-side, right-side, or top of any computer monitor. Works well with IBM-PC/compatibles or Macintosh monitors and comes with either permanent adhesive mounting or removable Velcro mounting. QUICKLOOK retails for $15.95 and is available from Highsmith, Inc. (800-558-2110), Demco, Inc. (800-356-1200), Vernon Library Supplies (800-878-0253), Brodart Co. (800-233-8467), Mead-Hatcher, Inc. (800-225-5644), or directly from InfoGraphics Information Services (334-821-5940). Quantity discounts available. For a demonstration, visit InfoGraphics Information Services at the ALA Mid-Winter Conference, Booth T-2252. For more information, contact: InfoGraphics Information Services P.O. Box 16533 Mobile, AL 36616 Voice: (334)821-5940 E-Mail: infographics@usa.net E-Mail: maf00349@acan.net Internet: http://www.acan.net/~maf00349 Internet: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/infographics ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:47:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Team indexing A potential client has raised this question: "If I can have multiple writers on a book and multiple editors on a book, why can't I have multiple indexers?" I have tried explaining the necessity of a single, consistent view of the organization of the material and the difficulties of melding pieces created by separate indexers who may have had different ideas of what was important. Their rebuttal is that consistency can be imposed on writers and editors, so why not indexers? Your thoughts on the matter? Dick Richard (Dick) Evans Infodex Indexing Services, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Team indexing Dick asks: > Their rebuttal is that consistency can be imposed on writers and editors, so > why not indexers? Would this be where a controlled vocabulary would come in? Seems like some sort of order must be imposed on indexers (albeit against our will:-) if we work on large, ongoing projects like journals, magazines, newspapers, etc, especially if a team (or an empire) of indexers is involved. Ann