From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 25-NOV-1997 21:01:55.57 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709C" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:31:30 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709C" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:27:29 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709141414.HAA27398@pacific.net> Lynn wrote: >Now, I'm dying to know how you got the scorpion out of your >kitchen or are you still treading carefully in there? I thought later I should have said how. I fetched a wide-mouthed pickle jar with a lid, reached up to move the cookbooks one-by-one oh so carefully from underneath the scorpion (adrenalin surged through me--I'm getting a replay just writing this), put on my leather gardening gloves, placed the jar over the beastie, slowly moved the jar so that the lip would nudge her frightfulness and cause her to fall, capped jar, looked at the fighting-positioned scorpion, and shivered. The whole time I was ready for it to awake and drop onto me before I got the jar under. I tried to take it up the road but it was too dark, so scorpion had to spend the night in the jar. Released it away from the living areas this morning. Wouldn't want anyone to think I was a scorpion killer. I'm still struggling with this on-purpose user-unfriendly index thing. That is plain weird. I guess they prefer to have the technical-support phone calls. That's sensible. ;) Lynn, you're pulling our collective leg, aren't you? I mean, about their understanding the effect of their "style"? Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: AOL for mail. Local ISP for surfing. Good mornming! Are you saying that the AOL mail-only service is faster and easier for access than their main or web-type access? Thanks for the tip! David ----- Emily Adelsohn wrote: > > I am reasonably content with using AOL for e-mails only (at their rock-bottom > rate of $4.95/mo.) and a local service provider called Earthlink for > "surfing." I can work around AOL's access problems that way; there's no > delay in getting on-line to download e-mails first thing in the morning, and > then I have all day to read and respond off-line for transmission the next > morning. > > Emily Adelsohn > Pasadena, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:13:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Web site indexing questions For those of you who have indexed Web sites: Background information: I have recently contracted to index a very large Web site of a health organization. For some reason, the client just wants me to list the index terms with the URL of the page on which the term appears and the client will input the HTML codes later. That's fine except that some of the pages are very long indeed. My initial idea was to create the index by linking the term in the index to the exact place in the text of the site where the term occurred (and I told them this. I suspect they want to save some money by having someone in-house do the HTML coding.). I have printed out the pages of the site because as I said it is so large that there is no way one could be sure that all the material is there otherwise (and no, they have not yet provided me with a list of the files on the server. I am going to ask them for that today. They don't want to send me the actual HTML files, however.). I am going to send them a more detailed work plan outline/list of questions in the next day or so and would like some input from all of you on some issues. So my questions are basically the following: 1. Should I mark on the printed copies where the terms are with a suggested code word for the interior links for the index terms and return this with the completed index? Otherwise, in my opinion, the idea of just having the page address is not much better than having a detailed TOC in this case. 2. What about periodically updating the index, which will certainly be necessary in this case as the client will add material to the site constantly? Do you ask for a retainer to do this? What procedure do you follow for this? 3. As far as formatting the index is concerned, I have noticed on some of the examples of Web sites indexes that I have seen that occurrences of subheads with the same wording are left on individual lines and not grouped together as in a normal index. Is this because of the limitations of HTML coding (e.g., the word itself being the linking entity)? Is there some way to have the subheads followed by the links on the same line? (I think perhaps you could have the SUBHEAD then , like page numbers.... You could place a headnote at the top of the index and perhaps before each alphabetical group to inform the reader that the numbers or other codes after terms refer to occurrences of the term and not to actual page numbers or something like that.) What do you think?) 4. Another formatting concern to suggest to the webmasters of the site: is it better to have the index in one file or broken up into several files? 5. Any other advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Book Indexers Chat Hi, Just a reminder that we meet tonight at 8:30 Central Time. AOL Book Indexers Chat Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Indexing Income uses In reply to Linsay Gower, who wrote: > Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. > How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly > bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely > from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you > indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm > trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other > than busy-ness. > I work full time as an in-house indexer, so indexing is 100% of my income. I manage to pay my bills, but that's about it... I'd probably earn more as an administrative assistant. (Depressing, but true.) Our workload is down somewhat this year, so I average about 40-45 hours a week, which translates to about 500 indexed pages. (Last year I averaged 50+ hours a week, but I'm not anxious to repeat the experience. :) ) Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:38:32 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Freelancing "without a safety net? " How safe is it really? Who supplies the net? Greetings, Sonsie and all: I have freelanced all of my life (though not yet as an indexer) and now for the first time I am considering taking a job. _This_ is a scary step because I have always felt very safe having large numbers of regular (or occasional) freelance clients spread around the country and the globe. So there is no way that a decision by one client would cause me any great financial disruption. Royalties (and, ironically, slow payers) "get me by" when I am not able to work (due to my studies and training, for example.) Somewhat on the other side of the coin, I would suggest that having both spouses employed (even worse, in the same community, especially if working for the same employer, as quite a few do) is really rather more risky. Your family income could be cut in half, or worse, in a week or two. Long term job security is a thing of the past. There are some advantages to the traditional workplace which I miss, of course, and I look forward to those when I find the job I want. (A job, because I want the group working and learning atmosphere when starting in my new career.) It would be great to work with decent, supportive people like those on our Listserv, for example. Does it not strike us as strange that so many creative freelancers (and not only on this list) seem to be able to work that way only because there is a spouse with a "better paying job" and "benefits?" If our clients perceive that, they will continue to squeeze us, I'm afraid. And why should that be? That because we work away from the client's location, we should work cheap? I do like the comment I read here recently that authors _will_ pay the fair and reasonable fees that we _ask_ them to pay. If ever a client mentioned (perceived) spouse income and benefits in the course of negotiations I would gently reply that it really isn't logical that a spouse and his/her employer should be expected to underwrite me, the freelancer, and my client. Have any of you dealt with this issue in deep and meaningful discussions at home, or with clients? I'd like to know where others stand on this. David Sonsie wrote: > > At 01:29 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Lindsay Gower wrote: > > >Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. > >How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly > >bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely > >from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you > >indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm > >trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other > >than busy-ness. > > I esimtate that my indexing work totals about 3/4 of a regular workweek most > of the time...weeks where I might have to spend 50-60 hours at my desk, > offset by weeks where I have no current projects. If necessary, I could > support myself solely on indexing, but it would be a mighty low-key > lifestyle. If I were not simultaneously trying to get another business off > the ground and also working at my third job (advertising and graphic > design), I'd be indexing a lot more...and thus would have a much better > income from it. > > My husband also works at home, in his own business, so we are both in a > situation where there are no "givens" in terms of wages or salary or > insurance or any of the rest. It's difficult enough to make it these days > when you have one steady wage-earner and a partner who is a freelancer...try > imagining life when BOTH of you are, essentially, out there without a safety > net! > > =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:28:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe Sonsie wrote: << My husband also works at home, in his own business, so we are both in a situation where there are no "givens" in terms of wages or salary or insurance or any of the rest. It's difficult enough to make it these days when you have one steady wage-earner and a partner who is a freelancer...try imagining life when BOTH of you are, essentially, out there without a safety net! >> Sonsie, I'm in the same situation. My partner runs a very small alternative elementary school. At least, because it's set tuition, her income is relatively predictable--though very small! My indexing income basically supports our family, and quite sufficiently. I probably spend 3/4 time actually in front of the computer indexing (the limit is partly other obligations but also how much scholarly indexing my brain can handle!) and the rest, up to not-quite-full-time, on overhead stuff. (I've never kept exact track of hours, so this is a guess.) I'm usually working on several jobs at a time, often up to five, and now I'm also homeschooling with my daughter. A lot of "role conflict stress" (gee, it even has a name!) but I seem to manage to get everything done and make enough money. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:53:00 +0100 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Drusilla Calvert Subject: Society of Indexers' conference 1998 Just a brief correction to Lisa's note about future conference dates for the Society of Indexers - the North-East conference is in October (not July) 1998 (9th to 11th) in Tynemouth, which is a Victorian seaside town (the meeting's to be held in a hotel which used to be the summer residence of the Duchess of Northumberland). It's about 10 miles from Newcastle - and about 10 miles from Newcastle's international airport. There's an efficient Metro system which connects both the town and the airport directly with Tynemouth. Details will follow soon. Drusilla Calvert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:12:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Balancing Index Columns in FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199709091718.AA11759@world.std.com> I've been asked to balance the columns on the last page of my FrameMaker indexes. I've used the Balance Columns checkbox with mixed results. Is there a better way? Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:33:08 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: Dublin limericks Sorry - the limericks seem to be either unavailable, or to have been thrown away. They tended to refer to things that happened or were said at the conference so wouldn't have meant much to others anyway. Perhaps Index-Lers could compile some of their own.... Liza e-mail: liza-weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Indexing Income uses In a message dated 97-09-15 09:05:34 EDT, you write: > > Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. > > How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly > > bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely > > from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you > > indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm > > trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other > > than busy-ness. I'm in my third year of my business of technical writing, indexing, editing, research, and PC training. More than half of my income still comes from technical writing, but indexing has gained each year. My business is my sole income. I gross more than I did after 21 years in a large corporation, but after taxes, health insurance, retirement, and paying my own medical and dental bills, my net is significantly less. We'll never be rich, but we're a *lot* happier than we were in corporte life! I didn't go independent to get rich; I left the city and corporate life to live in the mountains in our log home and work from my home office! Benefits? Lunch and sunbathing on our 50' deck with a view of the water and pine trees, jaunts in my canoe whenever I want, listening to the loons in the evening, *fresh* fish for dinner that my husband-the-Guide catches, hiking when I'm inclined to, NO traffic jams or commutes, NO boss telling me what he wants me to do, NOT getting up at 5:00 to drive 30 miles, need I go on? You have to make choices. We decided that making the almighty buck wasn't as important to us as living where we wanted to be. We stepped out in faith and we've never looked back! Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:34:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. -Reply The lawyer in me can't help but point out that this thread has established, better than any warning I could come up with, the need to consult a tax professional who is familiar with your local tax laws! Sounds like you two really did your homework-- I recommend that other freelancers do the same. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:42:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: business questions -Reply >>> Chris Carr 09/13/97 09:48am >>> 6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this? Your local law library should have sets of form books available for you to copy at will (ask the law librarian or reference librarian). Actually, this is what most lawyers use! It wouldn't hurt to at least look at a state-specific form in addition to the ASI form since contract law (like most American law) varies from state to state. As for the business names, etc., the best free resource will probably be your local Small Business Administration. They usually have plenty of brochures, forms, etc. to help answer a lot of the questions that you raised. Good luck! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:28:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Richard S. Perla" Subject: HTML question Dear Listers, Do any of you have any experience with HTML? I am considering taking a course at the local university to keep me in the loop. Long range plans are to get into newspaper indexing. My computer training has been 'jump in, then swim', and for once I'd like to get in on the ground floor. As this seems to be the up-and-coming language of choice, I'll take any feedback before I write these guys a check! Many Thanks- Jean Perla Yarmouth Maine-Which way to LL Bean? P.S. Zena: My daughters second grade teacher is a dead ringer for you. Your evil twin? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Dublin limericks >Perhaps Index-Lers could compile some of their own.... >Liza Liza, not meaning to vex us, Asks a question that merely perplexed us: "Do tell, Index-L, Have you rhythm, as well As a talent for writing indexes?" Ann (tee hee) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:53:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: HTML question In a message dated 97-09-15 17:24:32 EDT, you write: > Do any of you have any experience with HTML? I used SGML to write technical documentation for many years, and HTML is a subset of SGML. I highly recommend anyone getting more familiar with HTML; I think it'll be used in fields related to ours for several years to come. I also recommend the book, _Teach Yourself Web Publishing with HTML in a Week_ by Laura Lamay (SAMS publishing, $25.00 US, ISBN 0-672-30667-0). It's straightforward and has practical exercises. Good luck! Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:01:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe At 10:28 AM 9/15/97 -0400, DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: >Sonsie, I'm in the same situation. My partner runs a very small alternative >elementary school. At least, because it's set tuition, her income is >relatively predictable--though very small! My indexing income basically >supports our family, and quite sufficiently. I probably spend 3/4 time >actually in front of the computer indexing (the limit is partly other >obligations but also how much scholarly indexing my brain can handle!) and >the rest, up to not-quite-full-time, on overhead stuff. (I've never kept >exact track of hours, so this is a guess.) I'm usually working on several >jobs at a time, often up to five, and now I'm also homeschooling with my >daughter. A lot of "role conflict stress" (gee, it even has a name!) but I >seem to manage to get everything done and make enough money. It's heartening to hear from others in the same boat...especially others who are able to support themselves and/or a family on what they make indexing. I'm not willing to work quite so hard as you--at least, not just in indexing--so I probably make less, but I still make what I would call a living wage...and we have, for long periods, had to live on it exclusively. Thankfully, my husband, who is an architect, is finally beginning to feel the effects of the recent real estate boom. For the first five years he was in business, building was at a standstill and I was usually the major (if not only) earner. Considering that we had just built our own home and taken on some major financial responsibilities, this was quite daunting. I guess you get toughened up, though, as I can usually get through the night without the 2 AM financial jitters! :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:07:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: HTML question In-Reply-To: "Richard S. Perla" "HTML question" (Sep 15, 4:28pm) Richard, I think that HTML is a good language to know, since it is the prevalent language of the Web. In fact, HTML is *the* language of the Web, since you can't do much on the Web until you understand Java. Nevertheless, HTML isn't really a "language" in the way you might think. HTML is a *markup language*, which HTML is used to accomplish what you might do in an word processor using the menus: italicize text, define styles, indent paragraphs, generate bulleted lists, and so on. With word processors, you can see your changes as you go along. With HTML, you use tags to define text styles you can only see using a browser. Java is the prevalent higher-level language used on the Web. To understand what I mean by higher level, think of this: Java is what allows you to customize your HTML for particular users. But Java is a *programming language*, and is therefore much more complicated, especially for a nonprogrammer. Java is where things get more interesting than just displaying text (although text layout can still be complicated, of course). With Java you can expand from simply publishing text to publishing *fluid* text, which means page counters, customized pages, user records, animation, and so on. By programming your HTML pages with Java, your product will appear to be a "thoughtful" product. On a basic level, it's the difference between a letter that starts with "Dear Sir or Madam" and "Dear Richard Perla". If you have no familiarity with Web languages, you can start with HTML. However, HTML is also simple enough that it can be practically self-taught. Look at some Web pages that interest you, and look at the text of them. Start with the simple ones and notice the similarities in the HTML text. Then start looking and things that are more complicated. You're start to recognize the basic HTML structure and tags. Once you have that down, there isn't much more to learn. :-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:06:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: HTML question At 04:28 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Jena wrote: >Dear Listers, > >Do any of you have any experience with HTML? I am considering taking >a course at the local university to keep me in the loop. Easy to learn, easy to use. Can be frustrating - reminded me of reading the "Reveal Codes" in WordPerfect. I highly recommend learning actual HTML, not just how to use FrontPage and other HTML-document creation tools. If you know some HTML, then using those tools is a snap, but when things go wrong, you can go straight to the code and fix it. Jena, I've been learning HTML from books, web-sites and foolin' around (I designed a site for my church). I suggest you try your hand at similar low cost tutorial options before spending any big money on an extension course. Anyone who has the detail-orientation to do indexing will learn HTML in no time flat. -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:17:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Dublin limericks Liza Weinkove writes: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Jaffe Subject: Re: Indexing Income uses Peg Mauer wrote: > In a message dated 97-09-15 09:05:34 EDT, you write: > ...I left the city and corporate life to live in the mountains in our log > home and work from my home office! > > Benefits? Lunch and sunbathing on our 50' deck with a view of the water and > pine trees, jaunts in my canoe whenever I want, listening to the loons in the > evening, *fresh* fish for dinner that my husband-the-Guide catches, hiking > when I'm inclined to, NO traffic jams or commutes, NO boss telling me what he > wants me to do, NOT getting up at 5:00 to drive 30 miles, need I go on?.... > > Dear Peg, my question is how do you get any work done at all?! Your situation sounds wonderful and well worth some financial sacrifice. Music to the ears of novices like me! Linda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:07:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: HTML question In-Reply-To: <199709152232.PAA05043@mx5.u.washington.edu> Seth: actually, before you get to JAVA there is an awful lot of CGI on the WEB. CGI is actually the most prevalent WEB interface, between HTML at one level (on the surface) and systems that do things, using programs written in C, C++, JAVA, AWK, etc., etc. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:29:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: business questions Thanks for all your help! Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chuck Banks Subject: Re: HTML question For Jena Perla, et al: Lindsay Gower wrote: > Jena, I've been learning HTML from books, web-sites and foolin' around (I > designed a site for my church). I suggest you try your hand at similar low > cost tutorial options before spending any big money on an extension course. > Anyone who has the detail-orientation to do indexing will learn HTML in no > time flat. Although you can learn HTML on your own, as I and Jena have, a good course is likely to be faster. I think any course you take should include some basics of screen design as well as HTML coding. The course should also introduce you to some of the better tools available for HTML generation and graphics creation and optimization. There are a number of good resources online. You might begin with the list of resources at the STC Regions and Chapters Web site. Here's the URL: http://stc.org/Resources#HTML You might also try the resources of the HTML Writers Guild at the following URL: http://www.hwg.org/ I hope this helps, Chuck Banks -- __ ________ ______ |\\ | || // Chuck Banks | \\ | ||_______ || Senior Technical Writer | \\ | || || NEC America, Inc. | \\| \\______ \\______ E-Mail: chuck@asl.dl.nec.com America, Incorporated WWW: http://www.nec.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:03:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Howe Subject: Re: Free BEAT English Thesaurus 3.1.2.p available > Hi > > I have just received the latest copy of BEAT, a freeware thesaurus for > DOS with English online help. > > Download from AusSI's site: > > http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/download/Beat312p.zip > > It is about 104KB zipped. > > Tell me what you think of it. I might do a review of it in the > AusSI Newsletter. > > Dwight > ------- > Dwight Walker > Webmaster and Editor > Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi > NSW 2026 Australia > +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 > URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi > Dear Mr. Walker: I've tried to download BEAT several times the past few days and I get a message File Not Found. John John Howe, CEP Managing Editor 345 E. 47th St. New York, NY 10017 Voice: (212) 705-7334 Fax: (212) 705-7812 e-mail: johnh@aiche.org http://www.aiche.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:05:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Re: AOL for mail. Local ISP for surfing. In a message dated 97-09-15 08:07:29 EDT, you write: > Are you saying that the AOL mail-only service is faster and easier for > access than their main or web-type access? Thanks for the tip! > David, I have AOL's $4.95 account and use it as Emily does, just for e-mail. It is not an e-mail only account, though. I also have access to the rest of the service if I feel like using it. The lack of access trouble is due to Emily's (and my) habit of signing on early in the morning with a "Flash Session" which automatically sends and downloads mail and then signs off. Jenny Rowe jenrowe@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: more questions :-) Hi again! 2 more questions: Do any of you North American indexers work with publishers in Britain? Since there are so many books published there, there must be a market. Does anyone specialize in horticulture? I'd like to hear from you. Chris cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:36:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: Web site indexing questions You wrote: > >For those of you who have indexed Web sites: > >Background information: > >I have recently contracted to index a very large Web site of a health >organization. For some reason, the client just wants me to list the index >terms with the URL of the page on which the term appears and the client will >input the HTML codes later. That's fine except that some of the pages are >very long indeed. My initial idea was to create the index by linking the >term in the index to the exact place in the text of the site where the term >occurred (and I told them this. I suspect they want to save some money by >having someone in-house do the HTML coding.). I have printed out the pages >of the site because as I said it is so large that there is no way one could >be sure that all the material is there otherwise (and no, they have not yet >provided me with a list of the files on the server. I am going to ask them >for that today. They don't want to send me the actual HTML files, >however.). I am going to send them a more detailed work plan outline/list >of questions in the next day or so and would like some input from all of you >on some issues. > >So my questions are basically the following: > >1. Should I mark on the printed copies where the terms are with a suggested >code word for the interior links for the index terms and return this with >the completed index? Otherwise, in my opinion, the idea of just having the >page address is not much better than having a detailed TOC in this case. > Assuming they are your own copies, I don't see why you couldn't mark them up. As for marking for term locations, yes definitly. >2. What about periodically updating the index, which will certainly be >necessary in this case as the client will add material to the site >constantly? Do you ask for a retainer to do this? What procedure do you follow for this? > Though I don't have experience with this type of updating, I would suggest in addition to a retainer a letter agreement or a contract(or possibly putting it in the original agreement). This way both parties know what to expect. >3. As far as formatting the index is concerned, I have noticed on some of the examples of Web sites indexes that I have seen that occurrences of subheads with the same wording are left on individual lines and not grouped together as in a normal index. Is this because of the limitations of HTML coding (e.g., the word itself being the linking entity)? Is there some way to have the subheads followed by the links on the same line? (I think perhaps you could have the SUBHEAD then , second instance> like page numbers.... You could place a headnote at the top >of the index and perhaps before each alphabetical group to inform the reader >that the numbers or other codes after terms refer to occurrences of the term and not to actual page numbers or something like that.) What do you think?) > For a back-of-the-book type index I'm using LevTech's HTML/Prep. This creates an HTML file right out of CINDEX. The format entails using bullets and lists for indents and general layout. Subheadings are used for multiple locators. You could code several entries on the same line by using short numerical or alphabetic locators. Also a number of web indexes I've seen include an alphabet listing at the top of the file for easier navigation. >4. Another formatting concern to suggest to the webmasters of the site: is it better to have the index in one file or broken up into several files? > It depends on how long it is. Using the alphabet header mentioned above would reduce scrolling through a long index but I would also recommend using "Go to top" links to ease navigating a large file. >5. Any other advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Check out the web sites listed from last year's web index contest. They are all listed in the Spring issue of The Indexer or you can check in at the AuSI web site. > Hope this helps! Linda Sloan > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > >***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Howe Subject: FYI: Re: Free BEAT English Thesaurus 3.1.2.p available --part_B0443F5A0012BBC300000001 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: Inline --part_B0443F5A0012BBC300000001 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/RFC822 From filer Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:52:59 -0400 Return-Path: jimw@mail.transport.com Received: from x.aiche.org ([172.16.1.253]) by mail.zt.aiche.org (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id QAA20772 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:46:03 GMT Received: from spanky.transport.com ([204.119.17.10]) by x.aiche.org via smtpd (for zt.aiche.org [198.6.5.153]) with SMTP; 17 Sep 1997 04:45:08 UT Received: from s.transport.com (s.transport.com [204.119.17.52]) by spanky.transport.com (8.8.5/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA06347 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:47:32 -0700 Received: from bend1-13.transport.com (bend2-3.transport.com [209.51.64.194]) by s.transport.com (8.8.4/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA11691 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:47:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199709161647.JAA11691@s.transport.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Jim Wilson" To: "John Howe" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:48:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Free BEAT English Thesaurus 3.1.2.p available Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) John; This message has been posted twice and both times I've tried to connect to this site, the same message appears. "Forbidden You don't have permission to access /~aussi/download/Beat312p.zip on this server." If one must be connected to some "royal" fraternity to visit this site and experience this alledged wonderful product, please let us commoners of the world know this, so we don't waste our time. > > Hi > > > > I have just received the latest copy of BEAT, a freeware thesaurus for > > DOS with English online help. > > > > Download from AusSI's site: > > > > http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/download/Beat312p.zip > > > > It is about 104KB zipped. > > > > Tell me what you think of it. I might do a review of it in the > > AusSI Newsletter. > > > > Dwight > > ------- > > Dwight Walker > > Webmaster and Editor > > Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi > > NSW 2026 Australia > > +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 > > URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi > > > Dear Mr. Walker: > > I've tried to download BEAT several times the past few days and I get a > message File Not Found. > > John > > > John Howe, CEP Managing Editor > 345 E. 47th St. > New York, NY 10017 > Voice: (212) 705-7334 > Fax: (212) 705-7812 > e-mail: johnh@aiche.org > http://www.aiche.org > --part_B0443F5A0012BBC300000001 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: Inline --part_B0443F5A0012BBC300000001-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Blackburn Subject: Re: Dublin Limericks Ann, I enjoyed the limericks, but didn't get permission to reproduce a= ny on the Internet. As I believe the authors hold copyright, I will have to sit back and wait to see if any authors come forward. I did get permission to publish one limerick, by SI member Yvonne= Dixon, which I have sent on to the editor of the Bulletin (publication of= the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada), for possible inclusion i= n my report on the Dublin conference. This limerick was a very adept summar= y of the talk on "Professionalism" given by John Simkin. Chris Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:12:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MRS SUSAN D HOLLER Subject: Keywords? I believe there was mention by someone here that they had received the May-Aug. issue of ASI's Keywords. Has anyone else received an issue? I am anxiously awaiting mine after all these months. Susan Holler ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:12:08 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Brainstorming: Pay your indexer with plastic? Dear all, It is curious that so many creative freelancers are routinely expected to offer credit to clients, as a matter of courtesy, no questions asked. Usually there is no time, or adequate profit, to do a real credit check. Now what happens when that firm's people stay in a hotel on business? ----- "You say you're a publisher? At Globe Publishing? Gee, that's nice. "But we'll still need advance payment by credit card, before we give you the key to your rooms, because your firm has not established a corporate account with us in advance of your stay." ----- Very few freelancers accept credit cards, but it is possible. Perhaps easier if a number of indexers band together and share the up-front administrative expenses. That might seem just "too hard." But now, or soon, the costs of electronic transactions should be coming down quickly. Has anybody looked at this as a possibility? David ----- P. Buell wrote: > . . . Another cost of doing business that no one has mentioned are agencies and > possibly individuals who don't pay. I got caught in a bankruptcy last year > that cost me $800.00 (I am sure this money is gone), robbing me of about > 10 percent of my profits for that year (I also worked onsite). This year I > have had a new experience, encountering for the first time a translation > agency that victimizes translators and never pays, or only when sued and > persistently so. I was only in for $212.00 but it could have been much > more. Someone wrote me about an agency in $50,000 to the same people and > another $25,000 and then $16,000. Urk, you can lose your shirt. > > Did I mention business insurance too. Because I have lots of computer > equipment and occasionally tutor (requiring special coverage in my > household as well as business insurance) this can be expensive. > > Another thing to bear in mind. If one is self-employed one is not covered > by unemployment insurance. Your work goes down to nothing and that is > where your are. The self-employed get no paid vacation or sick leave. If I > want to take off or even get sick I have to be able to compensate for > this. This means making more when I do work. > > So, even if you are doing only indexing, I still think your 50% or so is > low, even less than a minimum. > > Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:08:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Brainstorming: Pay your indexer with plastic? In-Reply-To: <199709162313.QAA23637@mx5.u.washington.edu> Yes, as a freelancer you are always extending people credit. The only abusers for me have been big agencies. I don't take plastic yet but probably should. Anyone out there know the expenses involved (we no longer have any credit cards ourselves). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:07:49 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Anderman Guenther Subject: Re: Keywords? My issue arrived today (Tues). Double issue May/June & July/Aug Nancy MRS SUSAN D HOLLER wrote: > I believe there was mention by someone here that they had received > the May-Aug. issue of ASI's Keywords. > Has anyone else received an issue? I am anxiously awaiting mine after > all these months. > > Susan Holler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:42:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Brainstorming: Pay your indexer with plastic? I can't swear to these expenses, and one would have to decide if they were worth it AND if publishers will actually pay by credit card. Authors might, but publishers might not. Anyway, in a recent discussion with a person who was establishing his own business (bakery), he explained why he only accepted check or cash. The credit companies charge considerably for startup fees and materials and charge a percentage (something like 5%) on every transaction. This would not be worth it in my case. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing BTW, it looks like I won't be moving to Canada for at least a year to a year and a half, just in case you were interested:D ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:20:55 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Knowledge of HTML Jean Perla asked, >Do any of you have any experience with HTML? I am considering taking >a course at the local university to keep me in the loop. Long range >plans are to get into newspaper indexing. My computer training has >been 'jump in, then swim', and for once I'd like to get in on the >ground floor. I have prepared and taught a basic HTML course and the course notes (a slightly older version than the ones I currently use) are available via the Web at: http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal/webauthr Hope this helps, Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:18:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Credit Cards David (and one other before him) asked about credit cards. I looked into the possibility when asked by a government agency if I could accept credit cards. It isn't cheap yet. Either = you pay 2-3% per transaction plus a maintenance fee for months with no activity or you can get a flat rate plan for $29 per month. = Might be worth it except that the government seems to be the = only client interested in paying by credit card. My largest client has no interest at all. What would interest them is payment by EFT. That might be worth looking into. Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:56:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Re: USDA course FYI to those who have written about the long delay: I just this minute gave in and phoned the USDA. They had my registration on the system, all right, but no credit card number (which I HAD sent WITH my registration form). They've been waiting for payment all these many long weeks, apparently, while I prowled the row of mailboxes wondering which of my neighbors had helped themselves to my valuable course materials. Perhaps they've misplaced your payment, too? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:24:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Index workshop I am forwarding this message for Lisa Moretto, please reply directly to her as she is not on the list. >To: lisa moretto >From: Roberta Horowitz >Subject: Re: Index workshop > >>I am on the organizing committee for the annual Technical Communication >>Institute held in Winnipeg each June. We are looking for someone to >>present a one-day workshop on Indexing skills. Do you have any contacts or >>could you pass me request on to the indexing list? >> >>Thanks, >>Lisa Moretto >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:35:13 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: downloads of BEAT DOS thesaurus Hi If any of you were trying to download the above and got 'Forbidden', try again. I have just fixed the problem. http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/download/Beat312p.zip If ever you have any trouble with our site, please email immediately. Thanks. Dwight ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:42:03 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: IEEE Digital Libraries Seminar in Sydney, 28 Oct 97 X-From_: gernot@faure.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU Thu Sep 18 09:29:41 1997 Return-Path: From: Gernot Heiser To: ieee-nsw@cse.unsw.edu.au Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:01:19 +1000 Errors-To: owner-ieee-nsw@cse.unsw.edu.au Subject: Outline of IEEE Seminar "Electronic Commerce & Digital Libraries 28/10/97 Reply-to: G.Heiser@unsw.edu.au Dear IEEE Members, below is the outline of Mike Papazoglou's Seminar to be held on 28 October, 1997. For registration and other details please check the Computer Chapter WWW Page http://www.cse.unsw.EDU.AU/~ieee/comp/, your copy of the last Circuit, or contact Lynette, Tel:95142154 FAX:95141807. Gernot Heiser Computer Chapter Chairman ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PART-1: INTERNET SEARCH TECHNOLOGY ================================= Searching the WWW Search Strategies & Tools Search Tool Examples Problems with Searching PART-2: DIGITAL LIBRARIES ================================= What is a Digital Library? Documents in the Digital Library Goals of DLs DL Requirements Knowledge Navigation in DLs Challenges for DLs Architecture of DLs Meta-Data & DLs - Dublin Core - Warwick Framework - PICS Use of Thesauri in DLs - thesaurus functions - thesaurus structure - examples of use Federating Digital Libraries Interoperability in DLs PART-3: ELECTRONIC COMMERCE ================================= What Is Electronic Commerce Categories of Electronic Commerce Electronic Commerce Activities Challenges f Electronic Commerce The Electronic Commerce Life Cycle Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) EDI-based Architecture Problems with EDI Advantages and shortcomings of Electronic Commerce Electronic Market Places and Network-based Intermediaries Meta-Data Mediation: Representation & Protocols Electro-NC Market Coordination: Examples Electronic Commerce Frameworks & Architectures - Commerce Net's eCo System Electronic Commerce & Transaction Processing Commercial Systems: - Netscape NE - Oracle's Network-based Architecture - Digital's Millicent System & Protocols ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:18:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Balancing Index Columns in FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199709152119.OAA06183@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 12:12 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Sarah wrote: >I've been asked to balance the columns on the last page of my FrameMaker >indexes. I've used the Balance Columns checkbox with mixed results. Is >there a better way? > >Sarah Lemaire I don't know of any way other than the checkbox. But isn't that sort of weird? After all, it *is* the last page and it doesn't look at all strange to have a full column and only part of another, IMHO. Sort of lets the clueless know that they've come to the end of the index. But what do I know? I'm still recovering from importing an index from Word into Frame, losing the indents and spend an entire night manually formatting all 2200 entries. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:40:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Web site indexing questions In-Reply-To: <199709152016.NAA16856@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 08:13 AM 9/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >For those of you who have indexed Web sites: > >Background information: > >I have recently contracted to index a very large Web site of a health >organization. For some reason, the client just wants me to list the index >terms with the URL of the page on which the term appears and the client will >input the HTML codes later. That's fine except that some of the pages are >very long indeed. My initial idea was to create the index by linking the >term in the index to the exact place in the text of the site where the term >occurred (and I told them this. I suspect they want to save some money by >having someone in-house do the HTML coding.). Hi Cynthia, I think your idea is far more user-friendly than having someone click on a link in the index and be taken to the very top of the page they want. >I have printed out the pages >of the site because as I said it is so large that there is no way one could >be sure that all the material is there otherwise (and no, they have not yet >provided me with a list of the files on the server. I am going to ask them >for that today. They don't want to send me the actual HTML files, >however.). How odd, being that anyone who visits the site can save the HTML files from their own browser! I've done it more than once. If using Netscape, select File menu/Save As while at each page you visit. You can save it as either HTML or text, though I recommend saving it as HTML if the page happens to have tables or frames (which are really hosed if saved as text). If you save the files as HTML, however, you may want to view them for indexing in your browser so you don't have all of the HTML code in the way. > >So my questions are basically the following: > >1. Should I mark on the printed copies where the terms are with a suggested >code word for the interior links for the index terms and return this with >the completed index? Otherwise, in my opinion, the idea of just having the >page address is not much better than having a detailed TOC in this case. That sounds like an excellent idea. How ironic that you're doing an Web index and you'll have to snail them the marked up pages! ;-D > >2. What about periodically updating the index, which will certainly be >necessary in this case as the client will add material to the site >constantly? Do you ask for a retainer to do this? What procedure do you >follow for this? A retainer would be an excellent way of handling this. I'd also stipulate in the contract that any hours exceeding a given number (that would be covered by the retainer) would be billed at a specified hourly rate. If you work less hours than covered by the retainer, you come out ahead. :-) BTW, I'd also make sure that they know to notify you whenever they make *any* changes to the site and not expect you to keep visiting the site that could affect the index and rummage through it to find out what's changed if anything. (If they delete something, it could break links in your index.) > >3. As far as formatting the index is concerned, I have noticed on some of >the examples of Web sites indexes that I have seen that occurrences of >subheads with the same wording are left on individual lines and not grouped >together as in a normal index. Is this because of the limitations of HTML >coding (e.g., the word itself being the linking entity)? Is there some way >to have the subheads followed by the links on the same line? (I think >perhaps you could have the SUBHEAD then , second instance> like page numbers.... You could place a headnote at the top >of the index and perhaps before each alphabetical group to inform the reader >that the numbers or other codes after terms refer to occurrences of the term >and not to actual page numbers or something like that.) What do you think?) Your idea is a good one. IMHO, a headnote on a Web index is more likely to be seen than in a book index, especially if placed right above or below a navigational bar (taking you to certain letters in the index). But isn't making distinctive subentries for the different locations another option? Or would that make the index too complex? I agree that unmerged identical entries is weird, leading the user to immediately wonder why. > >4. Another formatting concern to suggest to the webmasters of the site: is >it better to have the index in one file or broken up into several files? Several files are probably better and IMHO essential if the index is very large. One of my pet peeves on the Web is sitting and waiting for an enormous file to load. Another consideration in determining the size of the files is whether they'll put a complex background behind them. Some folks don't seem to know how to code so that the text (which loads relatively rapidly) will load and display before the background. So you're left looking at either a blank screen or placeholders for buttons, etc. that are still loading, all delaying the arrival of the text. So, if they're going to do that to you, I'd make the first file small so that folks will have something to look at before clicking on a link that will take them elsewhere in the index. (Once the background is loaded, it should display pretty quickly if the user goes to another file with the same background.) I'm currently creating a Web index (for my own site) which will be an index to cardiovascular disease sites on the Web. (It will be called the CardioIndex) As big as it's getting, I may end up with separate files for each letter of the alphabet. ;-D I strongly agree with Linda's suggestion of putting the letters of the alphabet at the top of the page for ease in navigation. In fact, I'd put them on each page and include a link at the opposite end of the page that will take you to them. (Obviously, I hate to do a lot of scrolling. ;-D) >5. Any other advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated. If you create entries that have See also refs, I recommend making the targets clickable links. You've probably already thought of this. ;-D If the site and its index is huge, you may want to create navigational aids in addition to the alphabet letters if the webmaster hasn't already done something along these lines and isn't relying on your index as the sole means of navigating the site. If the site covers a broad range of diseases, each with their own treatments, diagnostic tests, preventive methods, etc., I'd create a table or a frame that would include these as links that would take you to certain main headings in the index. This would be for those users who don't know the name of the test they want to look up, etc. But this would entail a lot of extra work on your part and I'd do it only if they agreed to pay me for it. I'll have to do that on my own site because it'll link to a huge number of sites on the Web, but this may not be an issue for you. If the big health organization your're working for is the American Heart Association, write me offlist (if you feel comfortable telling me). I've indexed quite a bit of that site for doing my own index and could at least send you the URLs I've been to that may cover some areas that you haven't found yet. (No charge, but as a professional courtesy.) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:18:41 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Are we futureproof indexers? With the Australian Indexing conference with the theme "The futureproof indexer" coming up in a few weeks, I was wondering what the general feeling on Index-L is about our likely futures. Do you think we can go on indexing books and other items much as we have done in the near future? DO you think we will soon find our markets decreasing and have to look elsewhere? If so, do you think there are emerging markets for indexers, and are any of you working in them? If you have any other comments on the future I'd love to hear them too. Thanks, Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:15:56 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Finders fees and poaching clients - apprenticeship issues Hi, These issues were discussed a few weeks ago, but I deleted the messages and didn't get around to replying. Someone said that they had an apprentice and charged a 'finders fee' for passing on work. I am curious whether other people do this, and whether it is just in a apprenticeship relationship or also at other times. Also someone else said that in their agreement with an apprentice they say that the apprentice musn't poach their clients. I can't see how this could work without saying that the apprentice must never take work from any client they have worked with for the mentor. How long would this apply for? Wouldn't it limit the apprentice's options with the very publishers they might be most suited to? Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:50:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Web site indexing questions At 05:40 PM 9/17/97 -0700, Lynn Moncrief wrote: >Hi Cynthia, > L>How odd, being that anyone who visits the site can save the HTML files from >their own browser! I've done it more than once. If using Netscape, select >File menu/Save As while at each page you visit. You can save it as either >HTML or text, though I recommend saving it as HTML if the page happens to >have tables or frames (which are really hosed if saved as text). If you >save the files as HTML, however, you may want to view them for indexing in >your browser so you don't have all of the HTML code in the way. C: That is essentially what I have done, but I am doing it because as I said in an earlier discussion of marking up text for indexing, that is the way I work best and unless there is something that I am unaware of with CINDEX, I have to have a print copy in front of me in order to enter the data into CINDEX, for one thing, because I do not use CINDEX in a window but in DOS because the screen is bigger and with my eyesight these days bigger is better! C>>So my questions are basically the following: >> >>1. Should I mark on the printed copies where the terms are with a suggested >>code word for the interior links for the index terms and return this with >>the completed index? Otherwise, in my opinion, the idea of just having the >>page address is not much better than having a detailed TOC in this case. > L>That sounds like an excellent idea. How ironic that you're doing an Web >index and you'll have to snail them the marked up pages! ;-D L>I'm currently creating a Web index (for my own site) which will be an index >to cardiovascular disease sites on the Web. (It will be called the >CardioIndex) C: I can't wait to see it! L>If the big health organization your're working for is the American Heart >Association, write me offlist (if you feel comfortable telling me). I've >indexed quite a bit of that site for doing my own index and could at least >send you the URLs I've been to that may cover some areas that you haven't >found yet. (No charge, but as a professional courtesy.) C: It isn't AHA but I appreciate your offer! Thanks for a great response to my questions! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:52:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Web site indexing questions Thanks to all who answered me about the Web indexing sites questions. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:48:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Finders fees and poaching clients - apprenticeship issues At 11:15 PM 9/17/97 +1000, you wrote: >Also someone else said that in their agreement with an apprentice they say >that the apprentice musn't poach their clients. I can't see how this could >work without saying that the apprentice must never take work from any >client they have worked with for the mentor. How long would this apply >for? Wouldn't it limit the apprentice's options with the very publishers >they might be most suited to? I believe I was the one to use the word "poach", so I'll give this a shot. First, let me say that my mentor/apprentice relationship could not have worked better, We dealt with the issue of sharing clients openly and frankly and often set rules that we found weren't working and changed them later. The bottom line is that we now feel that the fewest rules are the best. We have long since progressed from mentor/apprentice to peers, and I liken the evolution to a marriage. During the courtship (mentor/apprentice) you work by rules until you each get an idea of the other's natural style. Once you are confident that you can trust the other, you no longer keep detailed books on who owes what to whom. When I took on an apprentice (Ann, correct me if I am wrong on any of this), I was well established with several regular clients. During the first few months, I dealt directly with all the clients and subcontracted to my apprentice, keeping a percentage of the contract for myself. After a while, my apprentice became a full-fledged indexer and I found it too much trouble to be an intermediary. When a client called with a job I couldn't handle, I simply passed along Ann's name and kept no finder's fee. Soon, Ann was working directly alongside with my biggest client. At that point, we discussed how to handle other clients and I said I preferred that I not simply give unrestricted access to my client base. We continued sharing one client and subcontracting several others. After a while, the lines began to blur. If I work for the Indianapolis office of a publisher, and Ann is independently approached by the Foster City office of the same publisher, can I in good conscience ask that she not service that account except as my subcontractor? I could not. Nor could I formulate a simple, equitable statement of where the lines should be drawn, so we scrapped the lines. We now simply pass jobs back and forth and assume that things come out equal in the end. If one of us accepts an assignment and then has trouble finishing it, we may subcontract to the other on a hourly basis. My only caution to other mentors about poaching is to take it slow and ensure your apprentice will be around long enough to earn the sharing of your clients. You don't want somebody to hit and run, remaining your apprentice just long enough to ingratiate themselves with your clients. Clients are hard to come by and the life's blood fo your business. I believe a mentor owes an apprentice enough of a transfusion to get started, but the apprentice should exercise restraint and not bleed the mentor dry. Furthermore, the apprentice s should grow their own client base and repay their mentors by sharing. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:30:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Book Industry Study Of interest to those who would like some marketing power statistics in regard to libraries' book purchases: Library Journal (LJ), in its latest issue of Sept. 15, 1997 (page 14), has a short, one-page discussion of the Book Industry Study Group's report on book trends for 1997. It says that libraries overall represent about 10% of U.S. "publishers' domestic book sales" and the prediction is that libraries will increase their book purchases by 5% per year through the year 2000. All this in spite of digital resources (libraries' periodical purchases have been affected by digital technology but book purchases have not been affected much). Furthermore, libraries' purchases of professional books are about a 25% share of the total. So...have a good day! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:35:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Finders fees and poaching clients - apprenticeship issues POACHED(clients), FRIED(brains), or SCRAMBLED(invoices): An Eggstraordinary Tale of Apprenticeship: Part II (No, I haven't had breakfast yet... I'm hungry--can you tell??) As an apprentice-turned-colleague, here's my take on the mentoring experience. In July of 1994 I left my corporate technical writing job and worked as a contract technical writer for a while, collected unemployment for a while, and worked as a cashier at the local grocery for a while. I thought about what I wanted to do with the next part of my life, and found I had no clue. Some time in late 1994 or early 1995, I got a series of phone calls from a technical writer I had worked with in my corporate incarnation. Seems he was indexing computer books full-time, and needed help. "Learn the software," he suggested, "This won't turn into full-time money for you; I just need an assistant from time to time, and then, maybe, if it works out, you could do a few small jobs for me every now and then. But don't quit your day job, because I can't offer you anything like steady work." "What day job?" I though, being currently in my unemployment-collecting phase. "OK," I said, "I might be interested. Let's talk more about it... soon." I was not overly anxious to do indexing... it was always the worst part of any project, as far as I could remember. I thought the guy was a little nuts to be doing it full-time. So then he called again. And a third time. And I kept putting him off, not really committing. Finally, the last call: "So, are you interested or not? I need someone NOW. Come over today, or forget it." So I went. I started doing proof-reading and page checking in Dick's office. That let me see the structure of an index, and gave me a great deal of insight into how Dick's indexing brain worked. I could see what order he put the entries in, what he found to be important on any given page of manuscript, how he chose sub-entries, what got cross-posted and what didn't. Looking at an index sorted in page-number order rather than alphabetical order is an excellent way to study the craft, I believe. And, since my job consisted of proofing Dick's indexes, it was important that I knew how Dick indexed. So, I learned his style. Sometime in early 1996, Dick gave me an entire book to index on my own. He did the final check on it, and we shipped to the client. As Dick said in his note, we continued to work that way for a while. Dick accepted more work than he could do by himself, and sub-contracted the balance to me. We split the fee from my jobs 80%-20%. In the beginning he looked at each index before sending it. Eventually, he just said, "Send it." We agreed that I would not solicit work directly from any of his clients. I sent out lots of letters, and made cold calls, and accepted any sub-contracting Dick had for me. At some point (I don't remember exactly when), Dick said: "You're on your own. Call anybody you want. And oh by the way, can you do some page-checking for me next week?" So I let Dick's major client know that I was available to schedule work myself, and Dick and I juggledassignments between us sometimes. Today, when we sub-contract to each other it is still with the 80-20 split for whole books, or, if it is for only part of a job ("Dick! Help! Can you do 3 chapters for me??!) we pay by the hour. There are still some lines I do not want to cross in terms of client poaching. Dick gave my name to one of his clients, and I did an index for them. I now feel comfortable calling that editor to tell her I am available. On the other hand, there are jobs I have sub-contracted from Dick, and delivered to the client, but I do not feel that it would be right for me to call that client directly. I know that Dick does not get a lot of work from them, and it just wouldn't be right. I would find it difficult to put this practice into a hard and fast written contract; I just know that there are some of Dick's clients I will not approach, and some I will. Invoicing. I've found that it is important keep the paperwork scrupulously organized when Dick and I exchange work this way. If I work for him, I send an invoice. If he works for me, he sends an invoice. Dick has said before, and I agree, that a large part of why we work well together is that we have similar work backgrounds, and we index a niche market: after-market computer books. Trust is essential. Dick has likened the apprentice relationship to that of marriage: I can't relate, never having been married. But I trust Dick to be more than fair where money is concerned, and I trust myself not to take advantage. (And sometimes I under-charge him when he's not looking :-). Today I index full-time, and (to tie this to another thread) support myself, my house, my car, my health insurance, and my cat, completely from indexing income. Someone else mentioned stepping out in faith; that's exactly what I did. I have this deal with the universe (I probably mentioned this before, sorry): if today is the day I need to sell my house and get a "real" job, so be it. If not, help me do what's in front of me for today with as much grace and courage as I can. One day at a time, I've been indexing for three years, and: I haven't sold my house; I bought a new-to-me car; I have my nails done every two weeks; I pay my taxes; I haven't used any credit cards for over 6 months; and the cat and I are FAR from starving. Which reminds me... time for breakfast, then back to this darn C++ book. Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:31:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: NM Fall Indexing Conference--Last Chance! Last chance to register for our Fall Indexing Conference--don't miss this great weekend, and enjoy the Albuquerque Balloon Fiesta too! Embedded indexes are becoming a hot item with publishers, and Jan Wright's workshop will give you some hands-on experience with them. And if you have any intention of having your own indexing business, Janet Perlman's session on "The Business of Being In Business" will be indispensable. See below for information about the Friday afternoon tour of Access Innovations and the Wine and Cheese Reception. Contact Caroline Parks (caroline@rt66.com; 505-286-2738) for more information, or print and mail the form below. INDEXING UP, UP, AND AWAY The New Mexico Group of the American Society of Indexers Fall Indexing Conference October 3rd and 4th, 1997 --Embedded Indexing --The Business of Being in Business --Access Innovations Tour --Wilson Award Report --Wine and Cheese Reception Don't miss out of the New Mexico Group's Fall Conference, held during Albuquerque's Balloon Fiesta week. Friday's schedule starts with a tour of Access Innovations, an Albuquerque company specializing in converting printed materials to online formats, developing large document management systems, and specialized indexing software applications. The tour is followed by a Wine and Cheese Reception, where you can meet the conference speakers and other indexers from in- and out-of-state. Saturday's all-day event at the Lomas-Tramway Branch of the Albuquerque Public Library includes: -- a session on embedded indexing by Jan Wright, giving an overview of the process of indexing books electronically and practice in Word documents -- luncheon -- a discussion of the Wilson Award process by Janet Perlman, who was an alternate judge this year -- an afternoon session on the business of being in business by Janet Perlman, marketing your indexing services, managing your time, and other business issues COST: The cost of the conference, which includes lunch on Saturday, will be $50.00. Of course, non-ASI members are welcome. Please note that this cost is for Saturday's events only; the tour of Access Innovations and the Friday evening reception are complementary. Also, we regret that we cannot accept credit cards, and we'll need to have your registration on paper, rather than by email. Thanks! REGISTRATION: For more information, contact Caroline Parks, caroline@rt66.com, or 505-286-2738 (between 9:00 am and 7:00 pm MST, please). Or fill out the form below and send it with a check for the full amount to Caroline Parks, 8 Calle Dorada, Tijeras, NM 87059. Make checks payable to Linda Nelson / ASI. LODGING: *** For lodging information in Albuquerque: *** New Mexico Central Reservations, 800-466-7829 or http://www.nmtravel.com Albuquerque B & B Association Reservations, 800-916-3322 B & B Southwest Reservations, 800-762-9704 Days Inn Motels 800-325-2525 Super 8 Motels, 800-800-8000 (the Bernalillo Super 8 Motel, 505-867-0766, has lots of smoking rooms and a *few* non-smoking rooms open for that weekend, as of 6/2. It's located about 20 miles north of town, but may be a good last-ditch option.) REGISTRATION FORM: ======================================================= Please print out and mail to: Caroline Parks 8 Calle Dorada Tijeras, NM 87059 Name ______________________________________________ Address _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Telephone ______________________ Fax _____________________ Email ____________________________________ Vegetarian or other special dietary considerations? _________________________________________________________________ Can you bring a laptop? ______________________________ Mac or PC? _________________________________ Do you have Word _________ or Pagemaker ___________ installed on it? Will you be planning to attend the tour of Access Innovations on Friday afternoon? _______________ ======================================================= ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com _____________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________ ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Getting the word out to academics Yesterday I assisted a colleague at the library's reference desk in answering a question about indexing. It was posed by one of our professors who had a letter from her publisher saying she had to provide an index to her book. She came to the library to get the Chicago Manual of Style chapter on indexing so she could start. She was very pleased when I informed her that there are free lance indexers she could hire to do the index for her and that there is ASI and INDEX-L where she might be able to locate an experienced indexer with appropriate subject knowledge. I also suggested that her publisher might have free lance indexers they work with although the letter implied that the author was required to write his or her own index! I explained that the author has the responsibility to either write the index or to pay an indexer to write it. It seems as though there is a need for increased communication with academics and it seems as though there are at least some publishers out there who don't adequately inform their authors of their options. Perhaps the American Society of Indexers or Index-L or should have a notice run each week in such publications as The Chronicle of Higher Education. I would assume that most academics are aware of their options but apparently newly minted academics may not be and may not be adequately mentored by their colleagues. (I guess it's an academic eat academic world out there on the campuses of America.) What do others think? Was it a breach of Nettiquette to give out the listserve address to someone seeking to hire an indexer? ******************************************************************************** Jean A. Thompson PHONE: (518) 442-3628 Monographic Cataloger FAX: (518) 442-3630 University at Albany/SUNY University Library, B-35 E-MAIL: thompson@cnsvax.albany.edu 1400 Washington Avenue Albany, NY 12222 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:28:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ottesen Subject: Off topic: editing fees -- [ From: Ottesen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hi everyone! I am a technical writer interested in learning more about indexing so I have been lurking here for a couple of months. I've learned a lot! I've noticed that some you combine editing services with indexing, and if any of you have time to answer a question I would really appreciate it. Not too long ago I saw a posting on the techwriter list serve for a job editing text that had been translated into english. The idea, I guess, was to make the translated text more readable than the original translated version. The job was 20,000 to 200,000 words a month, ongoing. They wanted to know how much an editor would charge per word. Is that how you editors out there handle your fees, by the word? If they have a page count, why not charge by the page? Surely they don't mean to pay the editor by only the words they actually change? Also, wouldn't you need to see a sample of the work before you could estimate it? Thank you in advance, Susan Schionning Ottesen@ccis.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:03:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: APA style Here's a question for you folks who index psychology/psychiatry: I just got a call to do an index for a psychiatry book which uses APA style (for copyediting, etc.) The editor handling this book doesn't know whether the style also affects the index, or whether I should go ahead and do a CMS or other standard-type style. I admitted that I don't know, either, but that I should be able to find out. So -- a) does APA affect the indexing style? And b) if I'm going to need it, does anyone have an idea where I could find the guidelines for this style? I should add that the editor has said that he thinks a standard index style will be just fine, but I'd like to be really sure. TIA, Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Getting the word out to academics Jean A. Thompson wrote: > It seems as though there is a need for increased communication with > academics and it seems as though there are at least some publishers out > there who don't adequately inform their authors of their options. Perhaps > the American Society of Indexers or Index-L or should have a > notice run each week in such publications as The Chronicle of Higher > Education. I don't think the problem is limited to academics (meaning people linked to academic institutions, in this case.) One of my doctors co-wrote a book with two other women doctors. She was quite surprised when I told her that I was learning to be an indexer; she hadn't known such a profession existed. She said something to the effect that she wished she had known earlier, because doing the index was the worst part of the whole project. And this was not a fly-by-night book or publisher. Does anyone know whether books on writing and getting published inform authors of the availability of freelance indexers, or offer any suggestions on finding us? It seems to me that would be a useful subsection, or at least appendix or note, in any book on writing books/getting published. Just my 2 cents. Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:32:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: copyediting l I promised to give someone at a seminar the address for subscribing to copyediting-l. But I can't find it. Can someone give it to me? Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:53:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: APA style The APA has its own style book. I have one, but can't find it on my book shelf right now. You could probably get a copy from them. If I remember correctly, they distinquish in their names as to who is actually discussed and who is a reference, but I can't check this out. You might ask the editor. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:00:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: APA style You wrote: > The APA has its own style book. I have one, but can't find it on my book > shelf right now. You could probably get a copy from them. If I remember > correctly, they distinquish in their names as to who is actually discussed > and who is a reference, but I can't check this out. You might ask the editor. Thanks, Sandi. The editor doesn't know, which is why I'm checking elsewhere. I'll check my local college library for a copy, or at least an address to order one from. I'm on a semi-tight deadline, though, so a local copy may be my only option. Thanks again, Kara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:35:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: APA style My copy of "Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association" (Fourth Ed) doesn't mention anything about indexes. The ISBN is 1-55798-241-4. If you can't find a copy in yor local bookstore, try your local college bookstore. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:41:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: APA style The _Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association_ (APA) does not have rules about indexing (the manual deals with journal rules). The manual index follows logical page ordering, not CMS. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:34:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: copyediting l [and other stuff] This service is on a listserver much as index-l is. Send e-mail to listserv@cornell.edu with "sub copyediting-l Your Name" [no quotes] as the message. While researching this I went to http://www.rt66.com/~telp/inst_cel.htm which lists some VERY interesting stuff, particularly a FAQ sheet. INTERNET USERS: A nice search engine "control panel" that I found recently is http://metasearch.com -- one enters a keyword search first in Metasearch's panel, which in turn sets up the same search in Yahoo, Lycos, and several other search engines using the CORRECT SYNTAX peculiar to each engine: + symbols, AND or " " for Boolean functions, etc. One must, however, start each search engine one at a time. Another useful program is Go-Get-It, which performs searches on its own without having to start a browser. An advertisement for it can be found at: http://informatique.iol.ie/getit/ggiV20press.html; and the program may be downloaded from this site as well. I used this a few times during its alloted 15-day period, and found it quite useful. The next time I have $50 I may buy it. Sorry to gabble, Cheers to all Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:48:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: copy [and other stuff] ----Cut> You might want to use Meta Crawler instead http://www.metacrawler.com as you don't have to start the individual engines, just enter your search and what comes back is one list of sources from 7 or 8 search enginges Lycos, Alta Vista, InfoSeek etc. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org INTERNET USERS: A nice search engine "control panel" that I found recently >is http://metasearch.com -- one enters a keyword search first in >Metasearch's panel, which in turn sets up the same search in Yahoo, >Lycos, and several other search engines using the CORRECT SYNTAX peculiar >to each engine: + symbols, AND or " " for Boolean functions, etc. One >must, however, start each search engine one at a time. > >ySorry to gabble, >Cheers to all >Dave T. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:50:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Off topic: editing fees At 12:28 PM 9/18/97 -0500, Ottesen wrote: >Not too long ago I saw a posting on the techwriter list serve for a job >editing text that had been translated into english. The idea, I guess, was >to make the translated text more readable than the original translated >version. The job was 20,000 to 200,000 words a month, ongoing. They wanted >to know how much an editor would charge per word. Is that how you editors >out there handle your fees, by the word? If they have a page count, why >not charge by the page? Surely they don't mean to pay the editor by only the >words they actually change? Also, wouldn't you need to see a sample of the >work before you could estimate it? I normally charge for editing by the page, or by the hour. It's fairly easy to translate one figure into another...just do a sample and see how many pages you can edit in an hour, then figure the per-page rate that equals your desired hourly fee. WRT the above ad, I'd say that 200,000 words per month is a bit steep, though it's hard to know for sure how detailed the work is and how much actual editing is required. There's no way you would charge ONLY for the words you change; they must be paying by the number of words in the articles, books, whatever. If you're seriously interested in this job, you need to ask for samples to see whether that figure is possible, given the text you would have to work with. Given the wide range of the word count, I'd assume it's text for a journal or other ongoing project, rather than a specific single book or article. They'd probably want a stable of editors who would get several articles a month to work on, but all this ought to be checked out with the organization who is offering the job. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:26:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: author citations in text and footnotes Hi everybody, I'm working on a scholarly author index and I'd like to know how others resolve a pesky problem. What do you do when authors names regularly appear in the body of the text AND in footnotes on SAME page? Do you cite both 37, 37{n.4} or do you drop one, favoring the other? Using both is more precise and helps the reader not miss anything, but gets clunky and sometimes really awkward, like when discussions and/or footnotes continue to subsequent pages. 37-39, 37-38{nn.21,22} Thanks for your input! Jill Jill Barrett Indexing Services VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:07:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: APA style Kara, The APA style guide for indexes looks pretty much like any other index. The index for the manual uses initial caps for all main entries (which I personally find confusing and silly but there it is), and has plenty of articles and prepositions in the subentries. I would say there is no particular style for APA indexes, but you might want to ask the publisher about the main entry initial caps. There is no segment within the manual that discusses how to index or formats for indexes. (Or if there is, no one thought to index it!) Hope that helps. Rachel >Here's a question for you folks who index psychology/psychiatry: > >I just got a call to do an index for a psychiatry book which uses APA style >(for copyediting, etc.) The editor handling this book doesn't know whether >the style also affects the index, or whether I should go ahead and do a CMS >or other standard-type style. I admitted that I don't know, either, but >that I should be able to find out. So -- a) does APA affect the indexing >style? And b) if I'm going to need it, does anyone have an idea where I >could find the guidelines for this style? > >I should add that the editor has said that he thinks a standard index style >will be just fine, but I'd like to be really sure. > >TIA, >Kara Pekar Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:37:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Efthimis N. Efthimiadis" Subject: Don Swanson Talk at UW The Graduate School of Library & Information Science at the University of Washington invites you to a presentation by Professor Don R. Swanson on Wednesday September 24, 1997 at 10:00 am in Suzzallo Library Rm 127. Those interested can join Prof. Swanson for lunch afterwards. TITLE A discovery support system based on natural language processing of MEDLINE records. ABSTRACT The problem I address is that of how to find previously unknown implicit information within the scientific literature. Information can go unnoticed if it does not explicitly exist within any single article, but can be inferred by considering together two (or more) separate articles. The possibility that the articles in question have never before been brought together merits attention, for the implications they jointly contain might then be novel. We have designed and successfully tested computer aids that enhance human ability to discover implicit relationships. This software will be made available to others on a website now under construction at http://kiwi.uchicago.edu. Our immediate goal has been to produce a working interactive system useful to biomedical scientists. We have so far identified seven examples of literature structures based on the above idea, each of which led to a novel, plausible, and testable medical hypothesis. In at least two of these cases, the hypothesis was subsequently corroborated experimentally by medical researchers. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ this is cross posted -- please excuse any duplication +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Efthimis N. Efthimiadis Associate Professor Graduate School of Library & Information Science University of Washington tel.(switchb.) 206-543-1794 Box 352930 fax. 206-616-3152 Seattle, WA 98195-2930 email: efthimis@u.washington.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:17:58 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hj=F8rland=2C_Birger?= Subject: new book on information science I would like to inform you, that I hav just published a book: "Information seeking and subject representation. An = activity-theoretical approach to Information Science" at Greenwood Press. ISBN: = 0-313-29893-9 In this book I discuss the basic approaches to Information Science, including many concrete theories, e.g. Don Swanson's, Nic. Belkins cognitive theory, the semiotic theory, and so on.=20 Review copies are send to all the major IS journals. I would of course welcome any comment or discussion.=20 Kind regards,=20 Birger Hj=F8rland =20 Head of Department, Ph.d. Birger Hjorland Royal School of Library and Information Science 6 Birketinget=20 DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark Phone: +45 32 58 60 66 Fax: +45 32 84 02 01 e-mail: bh@db.dk homepage: http://www.db.dk/nhs/bh/home_uk.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: APA style This bounced back at me from the list so I sent it again. Hope it doesn't come through twice, sorry if it does. Kara, The APA style guide for indexes looks pretty much like any other index. The index for the manual uses initial caps for all main entries (which I personally find confusing and silly but there it is), and has plenty of articles and prepositions in the subentries. I would say there is no particular style for APA indexes, but you might want to ask the publisher about the main entry initial caps. There is no segment within the manual that discusses how to index or formats for indexes. (Or if there is, no one thought to index it!) Hope that helps. Rachel >Here's a question for you folks who index psychology/psychiatry: > >I just got a call to do an index for a psychiatry book which uses APA style >(for copyediting, etc.) The editor handling this book doesn't know whether >the style also affects the index, or whether I should go ahead and do a CMS >or other standard-type style. I admitted that I don't know, either, but >that I should be able to find out. So -- a) does APA affect the indexing >style? And b) if I'm going to need it, does anyone have an idea where I >could find the guidelines for this style? > >I should add that the editor has said that he thinks a standard index style >will be just fine, but I'd like to be really sure. > >TIA, >Kara Pekar Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:58:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: initial caps The APA discussion of the style manual's index (note that the style manual does not include explanatory text on indexes) includes a dig on beginning a main entry with a capital letter--whether the entry is a proper noun or not. With new customers not having a specific house style, I send a sample with and without main entry initial cap. I think accuracy calls for the use of proper noun-only capping, but have to agree with my customers that the lowercase main entries are nearly illegible. Somehow, the caps seem to help readers distinguish the entries as separate. Perhaps the lowercase style would be more legible if there was a half point or so extra line leading between entries. Does anyone know how to tweak Cindex 6.1 to print with such leading? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:22:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: initial caps At 05:58 AM 9/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >With new customers not having a specific house style, I send a sample with >and without main entry initial cap. I think accuracy calls for the use of >proper noun-only capping, but have to agree with my customers that the >lowercase main entries are nearly illegible. Illegible in what sense? Type too small? > >Somehow, the caps seem to help readers distinguish the entries as separate. >Perhaps the lowercase style would be more legible if there was a half point >or so extra line leading between entries. > FWIW, this is contrary to the principles I practiced as a human factors engineer. The established rules were: - Having all primary entries in caps *hinders* retrieval because it makes all the initial letters essentially the same shape: a rectangle. - Lower-case letters are more easily distinguished by shape. Consider: paragraph vs. PARAGRAPH. The lowercase version provides the descenders of the p and g as cues to identifying the word. The uppercase version is a featureless rectangle. - Mixing the case helps find proper names because they stick out. I have some clients who want initial caps. These same clients often publish books about program languages, where case is important and system commands begin with lowercase letters. In such indexes, I usully ask the publisher to drop the caps for that book. They usually do. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:21:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: oops I have just realized that I sent several "thank you" replies to the entire list, instead of directly to the people who responded to my APA style question. My humble apologies; I forgot "Reply" in this case goes to Index-L, and not to the individual sender. Thank you also to anyone I haven't thanked yet. Everyone's information has been helpful. Incidentally, does anyone know how to set Index-L so that you get your own posts, as well as everyone else's? Thank you! Kara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:42:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Pro-Cite Query (Problem) Hi all. I'm hoping somebody can help me with this problem. I have a citations database in Pro-Cite (2.1 for the Mac) of 135 records. In order to build in some redundancy, I want backups made. The problem is that for some reason you can't do a "Save as..." on the database... it's grayed out. Any attempts to rename (even temporarily) the data file alone, results in error messages. I've been on the phone twice with Research Information Systems (who now own it) and they don't have a clue why any of the above two options don't work. The only way I've been able to save with different names, is to rename the _folder_ these files are held in (there are four associated files with each data file) and duplicate the folder. If anybody can shed some light on this problem, I'd really appreciate it. TIA. Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:08:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Who Wrote About All Caps? at 09:22 AM 9/19/97 -0400, Richard responded to Pam's: >>With new customers not having a specific house style, I send a sample with >>and without main entry initial cap. I think accuracy calls for the use of >>proper noun-only capping, but have to agree with my customers that the >>lowercase main entries are nearly illegible. > >Illegible in what sense? Type too small? Actually the complaint is that the initial lowercase letters merge vertically, making it more difficult to distinguish one entry from another. CMS recognizes this in suggesting that list items each begin with an initial cap (to be redundant this means that the first word begins with a cap). >>Somehow, the caps seem to help readers distinguish the entries as separate. >>Perhaps the lowercase style would be more legible if there was a half point >>or so extra line leading between entries. >> > >FWIW, this is contrary to the principles I practiced as a human factors >engineer. The established rules were: > >- Having all primary entries in caps *hinders* retrieval because it makes >all the initial letters essentially the same shape: a rectangle. Where in my posting do you read that anything is in all caps? Disagree if you will, but at least do others the courtesy of actually reading what they post. If Iwas unclear, I intended that the initial letter of main entries is a cap. Acronyms and initialisms are all caps. Elsewise one follows English conventions in capitalization. >- Lower-case letters are more easily distinguished by shape. Consider: >paragraph vs. PARAGRAPH. The lowercase version provides the descenders of >the p and g as cues to identifying the word. The uppercase version is a >featureless rectangle. > Again the original posting never posited anyone used all caps. I consider that accusation insulting. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:16:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: initial caps I have to agree with Dick on this. I personally find lowercase easier to read and all articles that I remember reading on this came to the same conclusion. >FWIW, this is contrary to the principles I practiced as a human factors >engineer. The established rules were: > >- Having all primary entries in caps *hinders* retrieval because it makes >all the initial letters essentially the same shape: a rectangle. Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:19:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: author citations in text and footnotes At 12:26 AM 9/19/97 -0400, Jillbarret@AOL.COM wrote: >I'm working on a scholarly author index and I'd like to know how others >resolve a pesky problem. What do you do when authors names regularly appear >in the body of the text AND in footnotes on SAME page? Do you cite both > >37, 37{n.4} > >or do you drop one, favoring the other? First, I'd ask my editor what ne/she prefers, or what the press style is, and do it that way. If there are no specific directions, I would opt for making entries for both places. (I usually just write, "37, 37n" and explain in my headnote that "n" stands for "note"). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:44:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Who Wrote About All Caps? At 07:08 AM 9/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >at 09:22 AM 9/19/97 -0400, Richard responded to Pam's: >>>With new customers not having a specific house style, I send a sample with >>>and without main entry initial cap. I think accuracy calls for the use of >>>proper noun-only capping, but have to agree with my customers that the >>>lowercase main entries are nearly illegible. >> >>Illegible in what sense? Type too small? >Actually the complaint is that the initial lowercase letters merge >vertically, making it more difficult to distinguish one entry from another. >CMS recognizes this in suggesting that list items each begin with an initial >cap (to be redundant this means that the first word begins with a cap). My CMS 14th does not suggest this. From 17.62: "Principal headings...are preferably lowercased unless they are proper nouns or proper adjectives. The alternative syle of capitalizing all principal headings is also acceptable." This does not suggest that one use initial caps, it merely states what we already know -- that initial caps *may* be used. I would be very interested in any controlled study that showed initial caps gave better retrievability than mixed case. > > >Where in my posting do you read that anything is in all caps? Disagree if >you will, but at least do others the courtesy of actually reading what they >post. If Iwas unclear, I intended that the initial letter of main entries is >a cap. Acronyms and initialisms are all caps. Elsewise one follows English >conventions in capitalization. I know what you posted. I only used an example of all caps to emphasize the differences between the shape of caps vs. lower case. The principle involved is called the orthographic component of recognition. It applies whether the letters are strung together horizontally or vertically. > >>- Lower-case letters are more easily distinguished by shape. Consider: >>paragraph vs. PARAGRAPH. The lowercase version provides the descenders of >>the p and g as cues to identifying the word. The uppercase version is a >>featureless rectangle. >> >Again the original posting never posited anyone used all caps. I consider >that accusation insulting. See previous comment. Lastly, re-read your posting and tell me who has been insulted here. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Are we futureproof indexers? I share Glenda's curiosity about the future of indexing. Perhaps those who attend the conference in Australia will be able to share thoughts with those of us who can't attend. Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:03:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "SHARON J. STEINBERG" Subject: Re: life in/freelancing from Canada In-Reply-To: <199708150438.AAA30227@alcor.concordia.ca> I live in Montreal, Quebec and I just read your letter today. I was away on holidays till now. Montreal is a great city to live in, but be prepared to learn French. This is a question of political correctness here, because we have been in the throes of a language debate here for several decades. There are plenty of English speaking people here, though, and I personaaly know a number of transplanted Americans who have been living here for many years and seem to enjoy it here. Sorry I can't give you any information about free-lancing opportunities. Good luck wherever you go. Best wishes, Sharon On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > I would very much like to hear any information anyone has about freelancing > from foreign countries, especially Canada. My husband has an opportunity to > take a position in Quebec province (we are not sure where in the province, > yet) and my freelance work is part of the decision equation. I would like to > know if there are many freelance opportunities in Canada and if U.S. > companies are willing to work with freelancers in Canada. In addition, if > anyone has any tax tips/knowledge about being U.S. citizens working foreign > countries, I'd be open to reading that as well:D > Also, since this move would be very sudden (much like our move to > Sacramento:D), I would like any information anyone has on Canada and Quebec, > cost of living, popularity/unpopularity of Americans, anything. > All information would be helpful and GREATLY appreciated. > Thanks, > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:38:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: initial caps The decision as to initial caps or not is partly "run" by what discipline you are working in. I know that computer and programming books are often seen with a lower case letter for the initial letter of an entry. It appears to be the convention in that industry. Whether it is "best", or more "usable", is not the issue here. The issue is what your particular client prefers and somewhat of an understanding of where he/she is coming from. That is what should drive the decision, IMHO. Other disciplines seem more used to the initial cap for an entry. I don't have any clients in general indexing, or in my specialties of sciences and engineering who prefer a lower case initial letter. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:45:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Problem: Geographic names CMS is clear about main entries that distinguish a geographic feature from a similarly named geographic place, e.g., Geneva, Lake Lake Geneva, Wis My problem is how to treat subjects that are related to a specific lake but are neither in the lake nor in a specific place associated with it. "Lake Geneva region" as a main entry indicates the area surrounding both its namesake town and the lake itself which has several towns around it plus shoreline, organizational entities (multiple counties, e.g.), an encompassing watershed, etc. Shoreline is not lake, but land. That would make this entry inaccuate Geneva, Lake shoreline parks and Lake Geneva region shoreline parks better to me. Does anyone have any strong feelings one way or another? Is the noninverted "...region" main entry legitimate? Or does everything except actual corporate names get inverted? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and conclusions. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: initial caps Janet Perlman wrote: << I know that computer and programming books are often seen with a lower case letter for the initial letter of an entry. It appears to be the convention in that industry. >> This is especially true if you're indexing a book about a programming language that is case-sensitive. In Java, for example, the gameOver variable and the GameOver variable are two separate items, and would need separate index entries. Our convention is to match the case used in the text when we refer to programming code (functions, variables, methods, etc.), and to use lowercase for general entries. Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:07:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Geographic names (RESEND) This note was returned to me, so here is another attempt to send it: CMS is clear about main entries that distinguish a geographic feature from a similarly named geographic place, e.g., Geneva, Lake Lake Geneva, Wis. I want to correctly treat subjects that are related to a specific lake but are neither in the lake nor in a particular place associated with it. Consider these possibilities: Geneva, Lake shoreline parks vs Lake Geneva region shoreline parks "Lake Geneva region" indicates to me that it refers to both the area surrounding its namesake town and the lake itself, which has several towns around it plus shoreline, organizational entitites (many counties, g.g.,), an encompassing watershed, etc. Because shoreline is not lake, but land, I think the second option above is better. Does anyone have any strong feelings one way or another? Is the noninverted "...region" main entry legitimate? Or does everything except actual corporate names get inverted? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and conclusions. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:22:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Problem: Geographic names In a message dated 97-09-19 12:48:47 EDT, you write: > Lake Geneva region > shoreline parks > better to me. Does anyone have any strong feelings one way or another? Is > the > noninverted "...region" main entry legitimate? Or does everything except > actual corporate names get inverted? Diane, I think that your entry above is accurate. Since that is the proper name of the lake. I think people would look up Lake Geneva before they'd look up region, Lake Geneva. If the book was about regions of the state (NY in my case), then I might create double entries under: regions Lake George, 149, 157 Lake Placid, 79, 87, 90 Saranac Lake, 79, 89 Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:23:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Problem: Geographic names At 12:45 PM 9/19/97 -0400, Diane wrote: >Shoreline is not lake, but land. That would make >this entry inaccuate > Geneva, Lake > shoreline parks Inaccurate only when interpreted literally. It looks like a useful entry to me. Readers looking up Lake Geneva -- or Lake Tahoe or the Mississippi River -- are not just interested in the wet part. (Gosh, I actually had to sing the song to type "Mississippi" correctly.) -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:44:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: initial caps I have a client whose style requires initial caps for all primaries. When I index Java or C++ books for this client, I send two indexes (if I can't get them on the phone before ship day to talk about it): one with all leading caps as required by their style, and one with entries capitalized as in the text. I send a note saying that I recommend they use the mixed-case index, and why. The choice, as always, is theirs. Ann Norcross (still very disappointed that no one else wrote any limericks :-( ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:54:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Venneman Subject: Re: Problem: Geographic names How about: Geneva, Lake, 78, 82 attractions, nearby, 92-97 parks, regional, 72-77 and/or Lake Geneva, Wis, 85 attractions, regional, 92-97 parks, area, 72-77 Seems if people want to look up "things to do" they would look up under Lake Geneva, understanding that this is what the entire tourist region is called. Just a beginners thoughts, Pam ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:00:28 -0700 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: Indexing Income uses Peg, thank you for your refreshing peek into what really matters in life. I'm working hard to extract myself from the corporate grind. I took a mental health day today because I just couldn't face going into the offices and dealing with all the fires that won't matter five years from now. Since I'm responsible for 18 people, I didn't want to contaminate them with my attitude. Sitting here with a blossoming cold sore on my bottom lip (from the all the stress) and FINALLY getting to the digest from the 15th, it was all I needed to reassure me, Yes it CAN happen... and keep focused on the journey there. What I find so rewarding about this discussion group is not only the technical and practical advice that a wanna-be like me absorbs like a sponge, but also the reflective lessons and gentle reminders to care for our souls. Thanks. Lucie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:53:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199709191326.GAA15820@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> This is an exquisitely timed thread. I just sent off an email to a new client about reindexing an already-published programming book with a poor index. That index has initial caps on the main headings, something I forgot to mention to her. I totally agree with Dick. Initial caps are a huge problem in computer book indexes where character case is extremely important. Thanks for your cogent remarks on the subject, Dick. The results of your usability studies vindicate my long-held position on the subject (and were fascinating to read.) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Canada TO: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Hi Leslie -- I'm new on the index list, an editor brushing up on my indexing skills. Some years ago I was editorial director for the Bobbs-Merrill Publishing Co., and we had a reciprocal arrangement with a publisher in Toronto called Copp Clark Pitman. We shared manuscripts that fit both our lists, making only minor editorial changes for language differences and so on (and thus revising the indexes to match). Due to all the mergers and buyouts of the last 15 years, Bobbs-Merrill is no longer, and I have no idea if CCP still exists by that name. But I imagine that such arrangements may exist not only between U.S. and Canadian publishers, but also internally within large companies that have offices worldwide. You might start by looking at the list of publishers in the LMP (Literary Market Place) to see which North American publishers sell books in both markets. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................................... "Whenever books are burned men also in the end are burned." --Heinrich Heine ..................................................................... BANNED BOOKS WEEK SEPTEMBER 20-27, 1997 CELEBRATE THE FREEDOM TO READ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:27:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199709191912.AA14962@world.std.com> The subject of initial caps is interesting to me as well. I just agreed today to index a computer book in October for a publisher who usually requests initial capitals. But this is the first computer book I've indexed for them and it's 1100 pages. Yikes! I guess I'll have to double check the issue of initial caps before I start the project! Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:28:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199709191912.AA14962@world.std.com> Dick - Could you resend me (privately or publicly) the results of your usability studies on initial caps? I overlooked that message earlier. Thanks, Sarah Lemaire shl@world.std.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:33:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199709191741.KAA28637@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 01:44 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >I have a client whose style requires initial caps for all primaries. >When I index Java or C++ books for this client, I send two indexes (if I >can't get them on the phone before ship day to talk about it): one with >all leading caps as required by their style, and one with entries >capitalized as in the text. I send a note saying that I recommend they >use the mixed-case index, and why. The choice, as always, is theirs. > >Ann Norcross (still very disappointed that no one else wrote any >limericks :-( There was a young lady named Ann, Who respects case of every comman'. And when it's too late To determine their fate She delivers both cases by plan ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:44:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Problem: Geographic names In-Reply-To: <199709191756.KAA20132@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 01:54 PM 9/19/97 -0400, Pam wrote: >How about: >Geneva, Lake, 78, 82 > attractions, nearby, 92-97 > parks, regional, 72-77 > >and/or >Lake Geneva, Wis, 85 > attractions, regional, 92-97 > parks, area, 72-77 There was a young lady named Pam, Who tried to help out in a jam, But in "attractions, nearby" "Nearby" we imply 'Round said lake (which has no dam) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:01:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199709191639.JAA08796@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 12:38 PM 9/19/97 -0400, Janet wrote: >I know that computer and programming books are often seen with a lower case >letter for the initial letter of an entry. It appears to be the convention >in that industry. Whether it is "best", or more "usable", is not the issue >here. The issue is what your particular client prefers and somewhat of an >understanding of where he/she is coming from. That is what should drive the >decision, IMHO. There was a young lady named Janet, With whom I luck'ly share our planet, But "best" *is* the issue To spare users brain tissue When the index, they want to fast scan it. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:19:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: initial caps I AM LOVING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LAUGHING SO HARD THAT I MAY HAVE AN UNSIGHTLY FOOD ACCIDENT RIGHT HERE AT THE COMPUTER! THANKS, LYNN!!!!! > There was a young lady named Ann, > Who respects case of every comman'. > And when it's too late > To determine their fate > She delivers both cases by plan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: initial caps At 03:28 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dick - Could you resend me (privately or publicly) the results of your >usability studies on initial caps? I overlooked that message earlier. > I have not personally done studies on initial caps. My comments were based on general principles of human perception and the effects of case on the readibility of text. You might try a college text on sensation and perception and look for the term "orthographic." Don't know offhand where you would find basic studies on readability. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:03:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: author citations in text and footnotes At 07:19 AM 9/19/97 -0700, Sonsie wrote: >At 12:26 AM 9/19/97 -0400, Jillbarret@AOL.COM wrote: > >>I'm working on a scholarly author index and I'd like to know how others >>resolve a pesky problem. What do you do when authors names regularly appear >>in the body of the text AND in footnotes on SAME page? Do you cite both >> >>37, 37{n.4} >> >>or do you drop one, favoring the other? > >First, I'd ask my editor what he/she prefers, or what the press style is, >and do it that way. If there are no specific directions, I would opt for >making entries for both places. (I usually just write, "37, 37n" and explain >in my headnote that "n" stands for "note"). > I've given this "pesky problem" a lot of thought and I'm curious about how others resolve it. Like Sonsie, I too include references to the body of the text and references to footnotes on the same page (and I don't know anyone who doesn't). However, when note numbers are provided I include them in the note references. Since note references including note numbers can be quite complex I make them as simple and short and yet clear as possible by not using periods, intervening spaces, or enclosing parentheses, as in "37n4", "37nn4,5", and "37nn4-6". Rendering Jill's example "37-38{nn.21,22}" in this style as "37-38nn21,22" would push the limit of what the eye can recognize, but this would be unnecessary and incorrect as well, I believe, because only one of the notes spans two pages. Thus "37n21, 37-38n22" or "37-38n21, 38n22" would do. Michael ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Committees I am currently working on expanding membership of the following two committees that I chair for ASI. 1. Indexer Services Committee. Responsible for oversight and preparation of annual directory of indexers and their specialties. 2. Editorial Committee. Responsible for oversight (content, schedule, and design) of Key Words. If you are interested, please e-mail me directly. Thanks. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services Chair, ASI Indexer Services Committee and Editorial Committee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:41:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Don Jones Subject: Re: ASI Committees Hello Fred, I would be glad to help with the Indexer Services prep and pub. I have pretty decent DB and DTP skills and would love to contribute something. Let me give you my home and office phone numbers and snail mail address. Don Jones The Saturn Group Jones, indexes by 8875 Grove Park Drive #G Surfside Beach, SC 29575 Office (803) 215-6273 Home (803) 215-1927 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:42:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: ASI Committees Just a note to mailing list newcomers, or those unfamiliar with Reply-To addresses: If you want to respond to Fred's invitation to join an ASI committee, please make sure you respond to mailto:Locatell@aol.com and not to the Index-L list. With most browsers, clicking REPLY while reading Fred's original note will send your note to the list, and NOT to Fred. Even if your browser tells you it is responding "To Sender," it won't work... Fred's note has a Reply-To address in it that will override the Sender field. (IF this make no sense to you, don't worry about it :-). Also with most browsers, clicking on the link in my previous paragraph (if your browser is showing you a link, that is) will open up a note to Fred, and NOT to the list. Just trying to help, not criticizing or bitching. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:11:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: ASI Committees :sarcasm. Well, that was helpful. An incorrect link. :esarcasm. Sorry, y'all. Here's the correct link for mail to Fred: mailto:Locatelli@aol.com I left of the "i" last time. Sheesh. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: Re: ASI Committees Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 12:24 am EDT , message ID 97092004242450/INTERNETGWDN3IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. 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If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:16:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DEL Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 2:17 am EDT , message ID 97092006171200/INTERNETGWDN1IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:18:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DEL Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 2:19 am EDT , message ID 97092006192268/INTERNETGWDN3IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. 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If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:27:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DEL Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 2:27 am EDT , message ID 97092006274948/INTERNETGWDN2IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:29:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DEL Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 2:29 am EDT , message ID 97092006295833/INTERNETGWDN3IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DEL Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 2:32 am EDT , message ID 97092006321988/INTERNETGWDN3IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:33:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DEL Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 2:34 am EDT , message ID 97092006341018/INTERNETGWDN1IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:35:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: POSTMASTER@MCIMAIL.COM Subject: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DELIVERY: NON-DEL Your message of Sat Sep 20, 1997 2:36 am EDT , message ID 97092006362005/INTERNETGWDN3IG, could not be delivered to: MARTHAS / MCI ID: 0004381282 This mailbox is no longer valid. If you need additional information please contact MCI Mail Customer Support at 800-444-6245 (U.S. only) or 202-833-8484.