From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 25-NOV-1997 20:32:20.12 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709B" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:31:25 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an in-house indexer who would like to remain as such, we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify our existence to The Powers That Be. While outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am selfishly reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job security that comes with having a full-time position, and objectively, I honestly believe that there are benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs. outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral in this debate. >>> Suellen Kasoff 09/06/97 09:39am >>> Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply myself because they want you to be there. If I could work at home, I might have. In this day and age of modems, I don't see why people won't let you work at home. Maybe ASI should have a committee to convince people that home workers are just as good as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko writes: >Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from them in the past >few >months. When the first "position available" offer appeared, I faxed >them a >letter and never even received a "thank you, but" response. So, I am >wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted them? What were the >results? > > Sam Andrusko > >On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote: > >> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing company, seeks >freelance >> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical product > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:56:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question In a message dated 97-09-07 11:07:10 EDT, you write: > Is there a way to create multiple index entries using the same marker? I > can get around it by putting another marker close by but I think it would > be more efficient to put entries about the same topic at the same > location. > Hi Sarah, Yes, you can create multiple index entries in one marker. You separate index entries within a marker with a semicolon (;). Marker text can be up to 255 characters long. I usually put one index marker at the end of each paragraph so that the page isn't cluttered up with "T"s. The following example is in one index entry box: autoloader:disabling;cassettes:loading manually;<$startrange>enabling Feed-Thru mode;disabling Feed-Thru mode;Feed-Thru mode:enabling and disabling Note that all entries after the <$startrange> tag will need a <$endrange> tag. (This is covered in the "Using FrameMaker" manual in chapter 23 in the section, "To put several entries in one marker" -- it's page 23-11 in the Release 5 manual.) Hope this helps. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | pmauer@aol.com Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:23:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Writing for journals and other work without pay In-Reply-To: <199709080252.TAA13853@mx5.u.washington.edu> One more point, David has an Indiana University email account. Never, in my entire career, as academic, as professor, as indexer, translator, writer, etc., etc., was I paid so badly for full-time work and treated so badly as I was at Indiana University. It certainly made be sour. I would also add that journal publishing, while often small and non-profitmaking in scope, can be very much the opposite too. I complained of a journal that did not even provide a free copy of the issue in which an article appeared. It was not a shoe-string publication, but one done by a very big publishing company for profit, a lot of profit. Art for art's sake is fine, but only if every one involved, as is apparenty the case for the journal with which Betty is associated, is working for art for art's sake. However, making the fat cats fatter... that is another story entirely. There is also the element that we may be competing with ourselves by providing free anything. There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of in wanting descent pay or descent work. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:52:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question In-Reply-To: techndex@pacbell.net "Re: Another FrameMaker question" (Sep 7, 11:54am) techndex@pacbell.net writes: [Y]ou can put multiple entries within the same marker box by separating them with a semicolon (;) up to a maximum character limit of 255 characters. Don't put any spaces to either side of the semicolon. However, I do not recommend this technique because it makes editing such entries more difficult. I completely disagree with that last sentence (and agree with Peg). I think it makes much more sense to have the markers as combined as possible, because otherwise you are burdening the text with marker after marker. I think there are three reasons. First, if you have a lot of markers, you have less and less space to create them (assuming you don't want them adjacent, which I think we all agree is just bad :-). You start tossing in cross postings one word at a time, until you can have as many as five or six index markers at the first five of six words of the sentence. If anyone is every going to edit this material when you are done with it, you have just made life very difficult for them; remember that it is very easy to accidentally delete markers. Second, you may want to make changes without having to use the Find dialog of the hypertext linking from the final index. Sometimes you want to look through the pages of the document to find where you know those index markers are. But if when you get there you suddenly find eight of them on the page, all next to each other, how do you know which marker you are looking for? In addition, if you are trying to manually select the markers (instead of using the hypertext of the Find dialog), having several markers makes this a bit more challenging. Third, if you are making global changes and you only have to change four markers instead of sixteen, it's easier -- at least until FrameMaker realizes that sometimes people want to globally find/replace marker text. :-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:01:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Frances Buran Subject: Re: Deleting index markers in FrameMaker You wrote: > >I am finally doing my first index in FrameMaker 5 and came across my >first snag. I'm trying to delete a misplaced index marker. The >on-line help is >useless as far as I can tell and I followed the step-by-step >directions in >the book which didn't work! >Thanks in advance, > >Sarah > Highlight the marker and press Del. Yes, the online help is not very helpful. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Frances Buran Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question You wrote: > >I have another FrameMaker question, less urgent, that isn't covered by >my book. I guess people who write software manuals aren't that >familiar with how people make indexes. > >Is there a way to create multiple index entries using the same marker? >I can get around it by putting another marker close by but I think it >would be more efficient to put entries about the same topic at the >same location. > >Sarah > You can embed multiple entries in the same marker by using a semicolon as the separator character. For example online help:useless;index markers:deleting;embedding multiple entries would put three entries in the index, one at online help, at index markers and at embedding multiple entries ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:39:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: In-house indexing (long) In-Reply-To: Sharon Wright "Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply" (Sep 8, 9:12am) There are a lot of in-house indexers. I'm one of them -- although I have a freelance business as well. That puts me in the unusual position of having both contracted freelancers and been contracted as a freelancer. The advantages of salary work are obvious: benefits and job security, to some extent. The advantages to freelance work are also obvious: total professional freedom, choosing your workplace. So to compare the two is to compare apples and oranges -- although anyone with a knack for working independently has compared them anyway. :-) So from a purely employer-centric point of view, I will tell you why I think in-house indexing is advantageous. Remember, I'm the in-house guy when I write this. :-) Later, I'll present the other side. In-house indexing is faster, especially if you are working with embedded indexing. I am also in closer contact with the book production team and even the authors. This gives me an advantage, which translates to a better index. And if I ever need a freelancer, I choose somebody who best matches *my* needs, so I can still impose my own professional style upon the final product. In-house indexing has also made me a celebrity to this company. When I first came here I was a bit of an underdog. People tended to forget about the index until the last minute, or to forget that moving a piece of art can have a dramatic effect on my work. So I made noise for a long time, explained my needs and requirements, and talked about what I know would help me do my job and create better indexes. Over time, there have been changes in scheduling, author-indexer contact, the index review process, and cost analysis. Over time, then I have developed a niche for myself -- something I have never adequately developed working at home with many many different clients. And the product has improved. I am now responsible not only for the book indexes, but for the indexes to online products and to the online representations of the book indexes (all of which are available off my Web site, for fun :-). In-house indexing teaches you a lot about particular subjects. If I were an indexer for Microsoft, I'd own an amazing amount of Microsoft knowledge. Working for O'Reilly & Associates, I'm surprised to find that I'm one of the few indexers out there who understands a lot of computer stuff: HTML, Java, JavaScript, VBScript, Oracle databases, Microsoft Windows Registries, email, networking, and so on -- because these are the subjects that O'Reilly publishes. Thus I have a knowledge niche as well -- something I didn't quite gain working for myself and indexing books ranging from traffic engineering and wavelets to statistical software and dBASE. This is a real advantage -- very much like an apprenticeship -- and it serves me well in future business endeavors. (People have heard of O'Reilly & Associates, but few have heard of my own company name, Focus Publishing Services.) So in summary, working in-house means the indexes are faster, possibly better, cheaper to produce, and without sudden surprises. In addition, a company who hires an in-house indexer can create a specialty indexer without any extra effort. Now, the devil's advocate side. Where's the advantage to freelancing, then? Because I'm also a freelancer, and when I hear about a company in Virginia that is unwilling to work with me because I live near Boston, that's disappointing, especially with the Internet. The advantages for a company to hire a freelancer are that they are less work to maintain, exchangeable (you can always find a different freelancer for any reason, without explanation), and in some cases more professional (because they know they are exchangeable, and will work a bit harder and bend over backwards to get the job done as desired). They may not specialize, but they bring with them a mix of experience that could prove very useful in books about humanities and social sciences. And, once the book goes out the door in the package, you can just about forget about and worry about other things. (At my job at O'Reilly, I can interfere with the work of other production team members by trying to work on the same chapters at the same time.) They aren't cheaper when it comes to salary -- I believe that indexers should be paid fairly regardless of whom they work for -- but there are additional expenses with freelancers, such as shipping, phone calls, extra management, and so on, especially when you are interviewing for a new indexer. But these costs are balanced because there is no overhead costs for the company: they don't need another office, another email address to maintain, another paycheck to print. Finally, having multiple freelancers on several projects each is an educational process for the company itself, who can learn by talking with people who have worked on other books for other companies -- in some cases, competitors. In conclusion, if you look carefully, there is often a way to provide all of these things, regardless of who employs you. If you are willing to work hard when it's asked of you, to keep lines of communication open, to research well, occasionally to meet somebody in person, and be professional, and take advantage of today's communication technologies, you don't have to be at any disadvantages at all. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:35:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Taxes Janet Perlman wrote: >As long as you've got some income coming in, you > pay quarterly. It comes to about 1/4 of my gross, and since it's quarterly, > it cuts into disposable income in a big way, accumulating that much cash so > you have it on hand for 6/15, 9/15, 12/15, and 4/15, when you have the > pleasure of paying anything you owe for the past year's taxes *plus* your > first quarterly payment for the new year. I have a question regarding when one is required to begin paying self-employment tax. And yes, I've already contacted the IRS with this one. The self-employment experts there are so busy that I had to leave a message; they'll call back within several days. Unfortunately, that puts me awfully close to the 9/15 deadline! I'm hoping someone on the list has experience with a similar situation and can help me out. Of course, the IRS will have the final word. (Don't they always?) I'm a beginning indexer; I've just received a check for my first professional job. (Boy, did that feel good!) Other than that, I have had no income so far this year; my previous employer folded in January owing me around $9000 (it's a long story.) Fortunately, we're able to manage on my husband's income, barely. My question is this: Is there any minimum amount one must make before one is required to pay quarterly self-employment taxes? Must I now, before the 15th, pay 1/4 of what I just earned? Do I also pay 1/4 of what I estimate I'll earn in the next quarter? If the latter, how do I estimate how much I'll earn? As a beginner, I have no earthly idea how many jobs I'll actually get before December, if any. A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D ) TIA for your input! Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:47:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an in-house indexer. However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance job. Sure, ther are benefits to being an in-house indexer. No one says there aren't. Suellen G. Kasoff On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400 Sharon Wright writes: >Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an >in-house indexer who would like to remain as such, >we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify >our existence to The Powers That Be. While >outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am selfishly >reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job >security that comes with having a full-time position, >and objectively, I honestly believe that there are >benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a >debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs. >outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all >indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral in >this debate. > >>>> Suellen Kasoff 09/06/97 >09:39am >>> >Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's >wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply >myself because they want you to be there. If >I could work at home, I might have. In this day and age >of modems, I don't see why people won't let you work >at home. Maybe ASI should have a committee to >convince people that home workers are just as good >as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff > >On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko > writes: >>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from >them in the past >>few >>months. When the first "position available" offer >appeared, I faxed >>them a >>letter and never even received a "thank you, but" >response. So, I am >>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted >them? What were the >>results? >> >> Sam Andrusko >> >>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote: >> >>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing >company, seeks >>freelance >>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical >product >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:03:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Taxes Good questions! Please remember that I am not a tax expert. My knowledge is .... whatever it is, and you need to get a definitive opinion from the IRS or a CPA who works with such matters. It pays to pay a CPA now, IMHO, to stay out of trouble with the CPA. That's what I did as soon as I went fulltime free-lance. I consulted our CPA, who did our taxes, and it was he who gave me the bad news about the quarterly payment I had to make immediately. You'll need CPA advice periodically anyway, so you might as well start now, I'd say. Unless you're a tax expert, and can read IRS publications and understand them. Every quarter, I run income and expense figures to date and annualize them. We are required to pay in 90% of what we owe in my estimated taxes in the course of all the payments, so it's a gamble as to what your final income will be for the year. If you don't stay within the IRS's required percentage (I think 90, but I may be off), then you're in a penalty situation. So estimating is what's needed here. That's why it's called "estimated tax". ;-) Your situation is not an easy one, since it is your first year. You'll have to come up with a dollar figure for your probably income, and see what, if anything was withheld up til the time you became self-employed, figure that in, and figure your taxes owed (you need to know your tax bracket, your expenses, etc). Again, I'd see to seek professional help right now, and stay out of trouble. If you have thousands of dollars in back wages in litigation, you'll need professional advice on how to handle that. I hope this helps. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:26:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments In-Reply-To: <199709080406.XAA06393@mixcom.mixcom.com> Michael, congrats from me, too. The two most difficult adjustments for me have been self-discipline (creating a morning coffee routine helped) and teaching my family not to interrupt me when I'm working. We worked out a system of signs that I put on my office door, depending on what level of concentration I need at any given time. The other thing that was tricky for me was developing the habit of keeping careful records of expenses (in different categories no less!) and earnings. Since you mentioned that you do indexing, copyediting, and other things, I can tell you that tracking (separately) my income from indexing and copyediting for a year turned out to be a real eye opener. I ended up giving up copyediting for academic presses. In general, the record keeping has helped not only in the usual way--with taxes--but with structuring my business the way I want it. I also highly recommend writing up a business plan and reviewing it at least once a year. Come to think of it, I don't know that we've ever discussed on Index-L how to write up a business plan. I'd be curious to know how others did it. On the positive side, an unexpected pleasure was the "strokes." Unlike when I worked as an in-house editor, I now get lots of praise for my work--from both editors and authors. I finally feel appreciated. Best of luck to you! I've been full-time for 4 yrs. I love the work, and I love the lifestyle. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Writing for journals and other work without pay In-Reply-To: <199709080406.XAA06393@mixcom.mixcom.com> >That is my observation of 28 years: creative and artistic people, >including writers, are often so enamored of their craft that they >neglect to learn the business. Youth often neglects to think of the >future. When the universities themselves and the low-wage businesses >that gravitate to such towns take unfair advantage of them, it is pretty >pathetic. I admit to frequently taking advantage of opportunities to >remind my students - and anybody who cares to read my words - to stop, >look and listen to the business bits (and copyright bits) whenever you >are offered an opportunity. I couldn't agree more. I recently had the shock of discovering what value an editor placed on my expertise in philosophy. I used to do copyediting for several academic presses (as well as indexing). When I learned that the presses simply would not pay a living wage for copyediting, I gave that up, but I always figured the editors at least *valued* what they were losing. You can imagine my surprise at learning that one of the editors said that my expertise was icing on the cake but nothing she would pay for. And mind you, the editing I did for her made very good use of that expertise, and the authors were extremely appreciative. Even though I've told this editor that I won't copyedit for academic presses any more, I still get calls from her subordinates that start like this: "I know you're not doing much copyediting any more, but I thought that a philosophy book might tempt you." So there it is again, that view that because I love philosophy and editing so much, I'll be willing to lose a lot of money for the privilege of editing this book. Sheesh! Thank you for bringing this subject up. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:23:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Taxes At 12:35 PM 9/8/97 -0400, John and Kara Pekar wrote: >I'm a beginning indexer; I've just received a check for my first >professional job. (Boy, did that feel good!) Other than that, I have had >no income so far this year; my previous employer folded in January owing me >around $9000 (it's a long story.) Fortunately, we're able to manage on my >husband's income, barely. > >My question is this: Is there any minimum amount one must make before one >is required to pay quarterly self-employment taxes? Must I now, before the >15th, pay 1/4 of what I just earned? Do I also pay 1/4 of what I estimate >I'll earn in the next quarter? If the latter, how do I estimate how much >I'll earn? As a beginner, I have no earthly idea how many jobs I'll >actually get before December, if any. I'm not a tax expert, but I've been self-employed for over 25 years, and here's my take on this (which also includes the advice I've gotten from my own tax preparer over the years). If the withholding your husband has taken from his salary is enough to cover the self-employment tax YOU will owe this year, then you don't have to send any estimated payments. Or, if you somehow paid in enough in withholding at your previous job to cover both that job's taxes and your small freelance income, you're also covered. The whole point of sending in estimated taxes is that our system is "pay as you go." Employed people have withholding; self-employed people use estimated tax payments. If you've sent in enough payments (via either method) to cover at least 90% of what you owe for the year, then you're fine. If for some reason your withholding and estimated taxes come in at less than 90%, you will have to pay a penalty and possibly some interest on the overdue amount. While you certainly don't want to get into this situation, it's not criminal and the fine and interest payments are not huge. >A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken >yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my >expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D ) Business expenses are deducted yearly when you file your tax return, but they do affect how large your estimated tax payments should be. For example, if you had received $1000 as your first indexing check and knew that you had deductible business expenses of $500, your actual net income (on which you pay taxes) is going to be only $500 (not $1000). So that's the amount you base your estimated tax payment on. When you file your Schedule C for 1997, if your expenses still outweigh your freelance income, you'll have a nice little tax loss. If this continues for several years, of course, the IRS will want to know if you're doing a hobby rather than a business, but it's not going to be a problem this year. In fact, if you and your husband file a joint tax return, that loss reduces your gross income...and thereby your tax liability. And if you sent in estimated tax payments, you would get a refund (or the amount can be applied to next year's tax liability). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:52:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Taxes Do talk to a tax professional! The rules and procedures for self-employment income and taxes are complicated. I believe one can pay quarterly estimated taxes based on what one has earned, and ones expenses, up to the end of that quarter. (Note that the "quarters" are not all 3 months long, based on the dates the payments are due.) That is, one does not have to guess what one might earn during the rest of the year. Also, expenses during the quarter may be deducted from gross income to determine the taxable income for that quarter. Aside from the question of expenses, the estimated tax payments are similar to what one is responsible for if one has investment income or capital gains. If one wants to work through the IRS instructions and forms oneself, look at Schedule C, Profit or Loss From Business; Schedule SE, Self-Employment Tax; and Form 4562, Depreciation and Amortization (e.g. for computer equipment purchased), and their associated instruction booklets. Good luck with this! Joel John and Kara Pekar wrote [excerpted]: > > My question is this: Is there any minimum amount one must make before one > is required to pay quarterly self-employment taxes? Must I now, before the > 15th, pay 1/4 of what I just earned? Do I also pay 1/4 of what I estimate > I'll earn in the next quarter? If the latter, how do I estimate how much > I'll earn? As a beginner, I have no earthly idea how many jobs I'll > actually get before December, if any. > > A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken > yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my > expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D ) > > TIA for your input! > > Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:58:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LBaker@GALE.COM Subject: In-house freelancers Larry Baker@ITP 09/08/97 12:58 PM Seth Maislin's email on the pros and cons of in-house and freelance indexers was well-done. I can't say that I disagree with any of it!! I guess I've got to say, though, that I'm surprised that Chadwyck-Healey (or anyone) would hire freelancers who would work inside the company, presumably with their own desk, phone, PC, etc.--in other words, the company's equipment. We would not be allowed to do that at the company I work at (and I thought equipment, location, etc. were on that Top 20 list the IRS uses when determining whether or not someone is an employee in their eyes). We do hire temporary employees from time to time (summer student help, for instance), but there are definite start and end dates. Maybe that's what C-H is doing, and this is just a lesson in semantics. Larry Baker lbaker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:09:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: Taxes Hi, I'm not a CPA--many aren't--but I have been doing taxes since the '70s for my husband who has been self-employed for years. I also do taxes for a few other people--by word of mouth--I don't advertize or get into it in a big way. We used to have a CPA do our taxes until I found all of the errors he made on our business. Once I discovered that, I began doing our taxes and having him check them. Now I just get "Consumer Reports Books "Guide to Income Tax" --available at any Super Crown or other discount book store. It is very clear and gives you all the helpful tips to save you money. If you are doing a tremendous business (I'm not--since I am semi-retired and also on Social Security)-you can get by with this book and a good tax software such as Turbo Tax. Once you are earning a substantial income--then get a CPA if you feel the need. If the CPA makes any errors you are still liable for them, so pick one that is well referred. I do a number of people who went to H&R Block and I had to amend previous years due to the errors. I worked for Jackson Hewit (next to H& R Block) for one year--enough to see what a rip off they are. Not sure this is helpful but I see someone else replied with precise information also. Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:41:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply -Reply I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes. The comment that I was responding to was this: "Maybe ASI should have a committee to convince people that home workers are just as good as in-house workers?" I do not question for an instant that many home workers are as good as or better than in-house workers, but as an in-house worker, I have reservations about ASI forming such a committee because it is detrimental to my best interests and the interests of other in-house employees. If the ASI (or anyone else) convinces my employer that home workers can do my job as well as I can for less money, I'm out of a job, and this is a scenario that many of us "in-housers" frequently find themselves up against. The only point I was trying to make is that I, personally, would appreciate it if the ASI did not form such a committee or make such an effort. Perhaps I was over-responding to a throw-away comment. If so, I apologize. My only explanation is that it touched on a very sensitive subject with me, as I and my department have recently been in the position of having to justify to new owners why they should maintain an indexing department and not just outsource everything. (Incidentally, we seem to have won the day on that one, for now, but it's still a touchy topic!) Seth made any point I could have made on the relative merits of in-house v. self-employed indexers far more eloquently than I could, so on that topic I will defer to him. >>> Suellen Kasoff 09/08/97 12:47pm >>> If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an in-house indexer. However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance job. Sure, ther are benefits to being an in-house indexer. No one says there aren't. Suellen G. Kasoff On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400 Sharon Wright writes: >Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an >in-house indexer who would like to remain as such, >we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify >our existence to The Powers That Be. While >outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am selfishly >reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job >security that comes with having a full-time position, >and objectively, I honestly believe that there are >benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a >debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs. >outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all >indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral in >this debate. > >>>> Suellen Kasoff 09/06/97 >09:39am >>> >Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's >wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply >myself because they want you to be there. If >I could work at home, I might have. In this day and age >of modems, I don't see why people won't let you work >at home. MMaybe ASI should have a committee to >convince people that home workers are just as good >as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff > >On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko > writes: >>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from >them in the past >>few >>months. When the first "position available" offer >appeared, I faxed >>them a >>letter and never even received a "thank you, but" >response. So, I am >>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted >them? What were the >>results? >> >> Sam Andrusko >> >>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote: >> >>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing >company, seeks >>freelance >>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical >product >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:45:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Art for art's sake and Indiana University, life the universe.. In-Reply-To: <199709081840.LAA28709@mx2.u.washington.edu> There is a major typo in a recent message. That is decent, nothing to do with Darwin. I should not do my email until my second cup of coffee... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:05:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Taxes Kara, On the subject of estimated taxes; I will tell you what my procedure is, and what I understand the rules to be, but you also need to confirm this with the IRS or other professionals. I did the same research you're doing back in 1995. Here's the beginner's deal: You don't have to pay estimated taxes unless 1) You estimate you will _owe_ $500 or more _in taxes_ (it's not based on income). 2) If, with your husband's witholding, you are able to put 90% of your combined total tax responsibility in the IRS's hands by Apr 15, you won't be penalized. Some folks just up the withholding on the salaried person's income and forget about estimated taxes, but that seemed ridiculous in my family, because I started in full time and expected to make enough so it would be a struggle to get to that 90%. So, I decided to pay estimated taxes. Now, how to figure out what you're going to make. IRS says you can base this year's estimated taxes on last year's income, although if you have a dramatic increase, you could be in trouble doing that. And, of course, if you had no self-employment income last year, you can't use this method. The IRS has two methods to estimate taxes from estimates of future income. I really didn't understand them that well, let me tell you. I thought about estimating my income and then figuring the tax and paying in equal installments, but some months I don't get any checks because of slow periods, so I felt it was unfair to dig into my husband's income when I knew in the end that I would have the right amount by Apr. 15. So, this is what I do. When I receive a check, I set aside 33% of it into a special Tax saving fund in Quicken. The percentage is based on our combined income's tax bracket (28%), plus a little extra to cover the FICA tax, but not the whole FICA responsibility, because I will have business deductions. The first year I saved out 30% and came up $300 short, so I upped it a little after that. Then, when the estimated payment times come around, I simply empty that special savings fund and send the money to the IRS. Then I start over until the next payment is due. This way I do my own withholding up front, so there's no panic at payment time. Last year I even got a refund, because I had underestimated my business expenses a bit. Anyway, works for me. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen 9597 Jones Rd. #113 Houston, TX 77065 281-469-4461 email: jbclend@flash.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:59:07 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply In-Reply-To: <199709081652.JAA12594@pacific.net> >If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an in-house indexer. >However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance job. Sure, ther are >benefits to being an in-house indexer. No one says there aren't. >Suellen G. Kasoff Someone, I can't find the post, suggested that ASI work to convince employers of in-house indexers to go with freelancers instead. I agree with Sharon that ASI, and really, this list, has no business advocating the downfall of one kind of indexer to the benefit of another. Freelancers' hunger for work nothwithstanding. My mentoring was under the aegis of an in-house indexing department and I am forever indebted and grateful to them. Long may you wave. Further, indexing has always been both freelanced and in-house. I'm sensitive enough to the issues that really, if I thought the source of my freelance work was a result of the downsizing/outsourcing misery that we call corporate conduct these days, I wouldn't have been able to become an indexer in the first place. But that's me. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:52:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position - Sharon Wright writes: <> I think in-house versus freelance is a decision best left to individual companies and indexers... not to ASI. Each publisher has different needs: sometimes in-house indexing is more appropriate (for example, if indexers need to work from production files or files in progress), and sometimes freelance indexing is the best route. Certainly there are qualified indexers who work in both situations. As far as salary goes, our company pays freelance indexers several times what an in-house indexer would earn per page, but they also avoid having to pay insurance, vacation, 401k, etc. And of course indexers choose between freelance and in-house work for many different reasons. Child-care issues, retirement plans, insurance needs (your family may or may not be covered through your spouse), desire for job security/regular paycheck, startup costs of working at home... all of these will influence someone's decision to pursue freelance work. ASI was formed to represent the indexing profession as a whole. I'd hate to see it endorse freelance over in-house *or* vice versa... both freelancers and in-house employees should be equally welcome. Erika Millen (Macmillan/Simon & Schuster) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:02:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position - In-Reply-To: <199709081955.MAA09724@mx3.u.washington.edu> I think that decisions on in-house or external indexers will be made largely in terms of the needs and interests of clients, and a certain conservatism in the market place about telecommuters. I don't think what the ASI wants is going to matter a hill of beans. Perhaps the most significant factor will be that companies in relatively undeveloped areas may not be able to find the kind of indexers they want locally for in-house use. Our skills are often quite specialized. In a city like New York, on the other hand, there may be indexers galore to choose from. I don't think anyone should feel threatened about this discussion. Personally, I find onsite work distasteful period. I hate playing office games and would rather spend time getting something done than going to meetings and getting down on all fours, Thus, another factor: not all indexers want to be in-house indexers. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:05:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: In-house freelancers Larry, I don't think they are hiring freelancers inside the company. Suellen On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:58:00 -0400 LBaker@GALE.COM writes: >Larry Baker@ITP >09/08/97 12:58 PM > >Seth Maislin's email on the pros and cons of in-house and freelance >indexers was well-done. I can't say that I disagree with any of it!! > >I guess I've got to say, though, that I'm surprised that >Chadwyck-Healey >(or anyone) would hire freelancers who would work inside the company, >presumably with their own desk, phone, PC, etc.--in other words, the >company's equipment. We would not be allowed to do that at the company >I >work at (and I thought equipment, location, etc. were on that Top 20 >list >the IRS uses when determining whether or not someone is an employee in >their eyes). We do hire temporary employees from time to time (summer >student help, for instance), but there are definite start and end >dates. >Maybe that's what C-H is doing, and this is just a lesson in >semantics. > >Larry Baker >lbaker@gale.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:12:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply -Reply I still don't see why a committee like that would be detrimental to anyone. Anyway, I doubt that it would be formed. However, it seems to me that ASI is for freelancers as much as in-house indexers. Suellen On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:41:58 -0400 Sharon Wright writes: >I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes. The >comment that I was responding to was this: > >"Maybe ASI should have a committee to convince >people that home workers are just as good as >in-house workers?" > >I do not question for an instant that many home >workers are as good as or better than in-house >workers, but as an in-house worker, I have >reservations about ASI forming such a committee >because it is detrimental to my best interests and the >interests of other in-house employees. If the ASI (or >anyone else) convinces my employer that home >workers can do my job as well as I can for less >money, I'm out of a job, and this is a scenario that >many of us "in-housers" frequently find themselves up >against. The only point I was trying to make is that I, >personally, would appreciate it if the ASI did not form >such a committee or make such an effort. Perhaps I >was over-responding to a throw-away comment. If >so, I apologize. My only explanation is that it touched >on a very sensitive subject with me, as I and my >department have recently been in the position of >having to justify to new owners why they should >maintain an indexing department and not just >outsource everything. (Incidentally, we seem to have >won the day on that one, for now, but it's still a touchy >topic!) > >Seth made any point I could have made on the relative >merits of in-house v. self-employed indexers far more >eloquently than I could, so on that topic I will defer to >him. > >>>> Suellen Kasoff 09/08/97 >12:47pm >>> >If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an >in-house indexer. >However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance >job. Sure, ther are benefits to being an in-house >indexer. No one says there aren't. >Suellen G. Kasoff > >On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:12:01 -0400 Sharon Wright > writes: >>Some of us would appreciate it if you didn't. As an >>in-house indexer who would like to remain as such, >>we are constantly fighting the battle of trying to justify >>our existence to The Powers That Be. While >>outsourcing certainly offers advantages, I am >selfishly >>reluctant to give up the salary, benefits and job >>security that comes with having a full-time position, >>and objectively, I honestly believe that there are >>benefits to having in-house staff. Rather than start a >>debate over the relative merits of in-house staff vs. >>outsourcing, if the list and ASI are truly to serve all >>indexers, perhaps it would be best to remain neutral >in >>this debate. >> >>>>> Suellen Kasoff 09/06/97 >>09:39am >>> >>Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's >>wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply >>myself because they want you to be there. If >>I could work at home, I might have. In this day and >age >>of modems, I don't see why people won't let you >work >>at home. MMaybe ASI should have a committee to >>convince people that home workers are just as good >>as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff >> >>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko >> writes: >>>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from >>them in the past >>>few >>>months. When the first "position available" offer >>appeared, I faxed >>>them a >>>letter and never even received a "thank you, but" >>response. So, I am >>>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted >>them? What were the >>>results? >>> >>> Sam Andrusko >>> >>>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote: >>> >>>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing >>company, seeks >>>freelance >>>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical >>product >>> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:21:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position -Reply Victoria: I think I must have been misunderstood. I never said that Chadwyck-Healey (or anybody else for that matter) should hire freelancers INSTEAD of in-house indexers. I just would like to know why they can't have a few of each. Seems to me ASI is for everybody, not just in-house indexers. Suellen On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:59:07 LCL Victoria Baker writes: >>If I didn't what? No one's telling you not to be an in-house indexer. >>However, I am in the position of wanting a freelance job. Sure, ther >are >>benefits to being an in-house indexer. No one says there aren't. >>Suellen G. Kasoff > >Someone, I can't find the post, suggested that ASI work to convince >employers of in-house indexers to go with freelancers instead. I >agree >with Sharon that ASI, and really, this list, has no business >advocating the >downfall of one kind of indexer to the benefit of another. >Freelancers' >hunger for work nothwithstanding. > >My mentoring was under the aegis of an in-house indexing department >and I >am forever indebted and grateful to them. Long may you wave. > >Further, indexing has always been both freelanced and in-house. I'm >sensitive enough to the issues that really, if I thought the source of >my >freelance work was a result of the downsizing/outsourcing misery that >we >call corporate conduct these days, I wouldn't have been able to become >an >indexer in the first place. But that's me. > >Best, >Victoria > > > >vbaker@pacific.net > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LBaker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: In-house freelancers Larry Baker@ITP 09/08/97 04:21 PM Suellen wrote: >Larry, I don't think they are hiring freelancers inside the company. Hmmm... I thought the email used the word freelancer, but maybe not. I guess I must have read it wrong, it being a Monday and all!! (I erased the original so I couldn't go back to see what had actually been said.) Lurker button reactivated.... Larry Baker lbaker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:16:55 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Inhouse vs. Freelancer Not to shake the tree further, but to clear the air and send the starling home to roost. I think it's up to the individual to convince a company with an opening that hiring oneself is to the benefit of the company regardless of where you do your work. I convinced a company that wanted an on-site employee that I could do the job at home, with telecommuting and FedEx; further, that I could do the job well and in a timely fashion despite the time lost by shipping material back and forth. I offered to work at home on a trial basis and/or work on-site for a limited training period. I have never hesitated to apply for jobs I'm interested in, regardless of the tone of the request. If you really want a job, I think you should let nothing stand in the way of your applying for the job. Let your expertise and experience sell the employer on you. I also recontact companies that have turned me down because I can't work on-site. Sometimes, if they can't find someone who can work on-site, they will look at telecommuters. Be flexible. After all, if you don't get the job, it's really _their_ loss, right? I don't feel ASI should take sides or form committees on these issues. ASI's job is to enhance the opportunities for all indexers, regardless of their worksite. ASI shouldn't support one type of indexing over any other, be it on-site vs. freelance or database vs. BOB vs CD-ROM. ASI has it's collective hands full trying to maximize the opportunities for all indexers to work and be fully regarded as professionals. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:00:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Society of Indexers meeting To UK indexers...... For those of us who didn't have the opportunity to attend your (Society of Indexers) annual conference in Dublin last week, how was it? If anybody would care to post any impressions, summaries, etc, here, it would be most interesting. Wish I could have been there! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments In-Reply-To: <199709081729.MAB02706@SWBELL.net> At 12:26 PM 9/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >The other thing that was tricky for me was developing the habit of keeping >careful records of expenses (in different categories no less!) and >earnings. Since you mentioned that you do indexing, copyediting, and other >things, I can tell you that tracking (separately) my income from indexing >and copyediting for a year turned out to be a real eye opener. I ended up >giving up copyediting for academic presses. In general, the record keeping >has helped not only in the usual way--with taxes--but with structuring my >business the way I want it. Well, I've made a fair amount over the years as a *part-time* freelancer, so I know all about the hit you take with FICA! I haven't had to pay quarterly taxes in the past, but I know how it works, so I *think* I'm prepared for that. I've been using QUICKEN for several years with great satisfaction, since you can set up a whole separate category for "Business" and then make as many sub-categories as you need for accounts. I'm a devotee of TURBO TAX, too. :) Copyediting vs. indexing: I've always charged roughly the same amount per page of print-to-be-read, so I don't think it's mattered too much in terms of gross income -- or is there something I'm missing? But I know copyediting is sometimes more *fun* than indexing and makes a great change of pace.... I do know my record-keeping regarding billable hours has been a bit less than formal, since I've been charging my regular clients at a per-page rate. That minimizes the amount of timekeeping you have to do (except for your own illumination...). I've been experimenting with SIDEKICK and SCHEDULE+97 for that purpose, which are already on my system. >I also highly recommend writing up a business plan and reviewing it at >least once a year. Come to think of it, I don't know that we've ever >discussed on Index-L how to write up a business plan. I'd be curious to >know how others did it. Yeah, I've researching business plans for a couple months and not having much luck -- all the books and examples I see are for marketers of *things*, not brain-workers in front of a terminal. Would someone out there like to write up an essay on "How I Wrote My Indexing Business Plan" and post it on the list? And maybe to the ASI web site?? >Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My >Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. >Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer >http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing Thanks for the replies, everyone---------- Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@swbell.net smith_editorial@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters Joanne, I'm behind on reading my e-mail. Thanks for responding about which person I should try to contact at a publishing co. Stephanie SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: FPO I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations. I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me what that means? (Not an important question. Just driving me nuts.) Craig Brown The Last Word= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:38:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Book Indexer Chat Room Hi everyone, It looks like the best time of the week to officially meet would be Monday night at 8:30 Central Time. However I would like to have a meeting tomorrow night, Tuesday at 8:30, if anyone can make it, to get your input on various questions that have come to mind such as: 1. Should we meet in a private room to keep kids and trouble makers out? The room at the bottom is a private room. Just add it to your Favorite Places list after you click on it. If you want to invite a friend just E-mail the heart to them form your Favorite Places list. Of course this chat room should be open to anyone that is interesting in indexing. 2. How often do you want to meet? If there is enough interest maybe we should meet twice a week once in the mornings and once in the evening. I think the afternoons should be out because of the time zone changes. People will be picking up there kids after school anywhere from 1:00 - 4:00 Central Time. I felt that the first meeting should be at night because a lot of people that are just starting out in indexing still work outside there homes. 3. Any suggestions about how to set up a chat room for non AOL indexer. I have been following up Johnathan's suggestion of the ICQ messaging system. It looks good to me. They are not charging right now but I think they will be in the future but it may be worth it if enough people are interested and they don't charge much. Now is the time to try it while they don't charge to see if it will work. The only problem I see so far is I don't believe they have come out with a Mac version of the program. I have sent them an E-mail to find out when it will be out. If you can't meet tomorrow or you are not an AOL member and have suggestions to the above or anything else, E-mail them to me. I will mention it to everyone for you. I have been going round and round trying to figure this out by myself. :) If Monday night or the time is definitely out for you let me know. Susan Wilkerson BookIndexr Click here to go to the room > Book Indexers Chat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:51:18 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Anderman Guenther Subject: Re: FPO Hi Craig, Not absolutely certain -- but I think it is "For position only" in other words the final graphic might still have some revision to content or quality but you can expect the graphic to be at that spot. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com Craig Brown wrote: > I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations. > I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration > or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me > what that means? > > (Not an important question. Just driving me nuts.) > > Craig Brown > The Last Word= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:21:19 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: FPO In-Reply-To: <199709090132.SAA13353@pacific.net> Craig asks: >I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations. >I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration >or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me >what that means? For Position Only. Meaning that whatever is there is a rough approximation and not the correct computer file, or that it will be cut in by the printer (old style), or whatever. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:01:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question In-Reply-To: <199709081550.IAA07605@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 11:52 AM 9/8/97 -0400, Seth wrote: >techndex@pacbell.net writes: > > [Y]ou can put multiple entries within the same marker box by > separating them with a semicolon (;) up to a maximum character limit of 255 > characters. Don't put any spaces to either side of the semicolon. However, > I do not recommend this technique because it makes editing such entries > more difficult. > >I completely disagree with that last sentence (and agree with Peg). >I think it makes much more sense to have the markers as combined as possible, >because otherwise you are burdening the text with marker after marker. > >I think there are three reasons. First, if you have a lot of markers, you have >less and less space to create them (assuming you don't want them adjacent, >which I think we all agree is just bad :-). >You start tossing in cross postings >one word at a time, until you can have as many as five or six index markers >at the first five of six words of the sentence. If anyone is every going to >edit this material when you are done with it, you have just made life >very difficult for them; remember that it is very easy to accidentally delete >markers. Seth, First of all, my aversion to creating multiple entries in one marker began with version 4 where you had to scroll to see subsequent entries in the box. (Note page 24-10 of the version 4 manual.) When I moved with my clients to version 5, Frame5+SGML, and FrameBuilder, I retained the habit. Also, regardless of the version, are you sure that you'll always remember to toggle page numbers on again if you've made page-numbered entries subsequent to a <$nopage> entry? If you don't, happy editing. However, it's not really all that much of a biggie in later versions unless you run afoul of the building block toggling mentioned above and the <$startrange> <$endrange> bug mentioned below. However, I do want to address certain points where I disagree with you. I took great pains to explain "stacking" the markers at precisely the same location. This would not at all result in a sprinkling of markers throughout the first few words of a sentence--something I NEVER do!!!!! This does *not* result in multiple "T's", but one "T", as I explained in my first post. This does not "burden the text" with markers, nor have I ever run out of space for creating them because FrameMaker conserves that space by "stacking" them and seems to be capable of doing so infinitely. In fact, I have the style guide to a big software company before me which specifically addresses index marker placement in FrameMaker. The proper locations are specified to the character (and happen to be the same that I mention below). While you can concatenate entries separated by semicolons in a single marker, this quickly becomes impossible when you're creating <$nopage> See and See also references (which, IAW the style guide, all go in precisely the same place for the entire book). You can only put so many in one marker because the building blocks and the forced sorting string for the See alsos use up characters. So guess what? Your markers are going to stack, precisely as I said above. If an entry is relevant to everything that comes under a heading, it goes before the paragraph mark ending the heading. If it's relevant to an entire paragraph, it goes before the first character of the paragraph. Only if it is relevant to a sentence or two within the paragraph does it go somewhere within the body of the paragraph and then it's before the first character of the relevant sentence. As I see it, this makes it far easier for anyone who later has to edit the text. If the heading is deleted, all of the relevant markers can easily be deleted with it and on downward in the scope of the deletion. This is a consistent pattern I follow throughout a book with this possibility specifically in mind. I would also assume that someone editing the text would have it zoomed large enough where they can easily avoid markers they don't want to delete, otherwise they're going to have fun getting the insertion point where they want it. I have yet to hear any complaints from any clients for whom I've delivered embedded indexes about these techniques. And yes, while I gave input into creating the above style guide, I gave none about marker placement. They came up with those specifications on their own. I guess I've just had to index too many previously indexed books where I've had to strip markers out of some chapters, but not others, then forgot to check for markers in a file before I started embedding, and wound up having to generate an index for that chapter and delete the markers from the previous index while sparing mine. When they are all contained in a few markers, I end up in the second half of the index clicking on links that no longer exist because I've already deleted the markers but forgot which ones. I hate that. I also hate having to read through a gazillion entries in one marker box to find the one I have to change even without having to scroll. This increases the likelihood of introducing still more errors that need to be corrected, especially when tired and hard up on a deadline. Plus, I don't know if Adobe got rid of the bug that version 4 had, but in that version <$startrange> and <$endrange> markers worked only erratically when included in a marker with other entries. And I'm not the only one who has discovered this bug. That's yet more editing when it rears its ugly head. > >Second, you may want to make changes without having to use the Find dialog >of the hypertext linking from the final index. Sometimes you want to look >through the pages of the document to find where you know those index markers >are. But if when you get there you suddenly find eight of them on the page, >all next to each other, how do you know which marker you are looking for? Many times (before going to the cut/paste from the page-order sort method of embedding) I've made changes to marker text without hyperlinking from the generated index. However, I haven't found occasionally opening the Find box, if not already open, to be a problem. Keyboard commands do it rapidly on the extremely rare occasions I have to edit a marker at all (usually only a misplaced marker). If you think opening the Find box is troublesome, try your hand at embedding in Frame5+SGML where you also have to go into an Elements dialog for every blasted marker that you create. ;-D Anyway, I find selecting those little buggers to read the marker text far more tedious than simply rapidly clicking to the right one in the Find box (which can go forward or backward). (I do first go, by scrolling or by page number, to its near vicinity.) When you have them zoomed large enough to select easily, then you have so little text visible on the screen that you have to spend more time with tedious scrolling when you want to move onward. However, it seems that you are much more likely to want to a change marker text if you don't create the index first in dedicated indexing software. That is only *one* of the reasons I create my indexes in dedicated indexing software first where I can much more easily edit it to my satisfaction as a *finished* product. I then embed by cutting and pasting from the page-order sort to eliminate the likelihood of typos and unmerged page ranges. If you are indexing by embedding directly, then it is not at all surprising that our work methods are quite different because you'd have to edit markers far more than I do. ;-D >In addition, if you are trying to manually select the markers (instead of >using the hypertext of the Find dialog), having several markers makes this >a bit more challenging. Which is why I don't manually select markers. I did that a few times in the very first index I embedded in FrameMaker, then abandoned it for the Find dialog. Furthermore, if you're not editing the marker by hyperlinking to it, you're usually editing it because you made a mistake, clicked the marker box button, and said ooops. So it's usually the last marker you entered that you want to change. Well, all you have to do is move the cursor one character ahead, click Find (backwards) and you have it on the first click with no sweat. Sometimes I work with the Find dialog constantly open because it will rapidly get me to the start or end of a page range without having to scroll. But then I have a 17" monitor for extra screen real estate and use keyboard commands if I need to open a menu obscured by the Find dialog. YMMV. > >Third, if you are making global changes and you only have to change four >markers instead of sixteen, it's easier -- at least until FrameMaker realizes >that sometimes people want to globally find/replace marker text. :-) Right. The global find/replace marker text function doesn't work, though the dialog initially led me to believe that it could. But again, this isn't necessary when the index is created first in dedicated indexing software and a cut/paste method is used. Every time that I didn't create an index first dedicated indexing software, thinking I would save some time, I've seriously regretted it because of the increased time spent in editing, which this is mainly about. That's aside from the fact that the quality of an index totally produced by embedding is immensely more difficult to achieve when "indexing in the dark" in FrameMaker. Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:50:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Taxes In-Reply-To: <199709090417.XAA05855@mixcom.mixcom.com> >A related question: are deductions for business-related expenses taken >yearly or quarterly when you are self-employed? (Right now, my >expenditures definitely outweigh my income! :-D ) Kara, it doesn't sound like you're going to be paying any taxes on your income *at all*, let alone have to pay them quarterly. I earned considerably more than nothing last year (grin), but I, too, had big expenditures, so my accountant told me not to bother filing quarterly this year. As soon as you can possibly afford it, I recommend that you get an accountant. Mine saved me a lot of money these past two years I've used him. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:02:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: FPO In-Reply-To: <199709090143.SAA20802@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> Whew!! I'm so glad Craig asked that question and Nancy and Victoria answered. It's bugged me for years, especially being that the first thing that always jumped to mind was "Fleet Post Office". ;-D Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:49:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: Dublin Conference We had an excellent conference in Dublin - but I haven't got time to write about it now. I'll try to find time in the next couple of days. Liza Weinkove e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:55:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! David Robert Austen wrote: This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are > sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever= ? > I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work > myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade tha= t > book in for groceries. David (or should I say David Robert?) is obviously of the same mind as Samuel Johnson, who said: "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." However, I think that the good doctor had his tongue in his cheek= when he said that. If David R. can't see why one might sometimes perform a service for no reward, I don't think I can explain it to him. Keep on scratching your he= ad there, D.R. Christine *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:20:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: query sheet & software Good evening, I just have a couple of quick questions: 1. What is a query sheet & how does one prepare it? 2. As a re-entering indexer who has no capital at the moment, can I get by with Word 95 for at least one or two indexes or should I really try to come up with the money for a good software program as I try to get re-established? Thanks Stephanie SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:12:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Society of Indexers meeting Janet Perlman writes: I would, but have lost my glasses on the way back from Dublin, and have t= wo indexes to finish... Christine *************************************************************************= * Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************************= * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free) Dear Christine: You wrote: (in part) >>If David R. can't see why one might sometimes perform a service for no >>reward, I don't think I can explain it to him. ---- Christine, I think I already explained my point of view in an earlier posting, but I'd better try to clarify my comments, since there is another distinct waft of an attack here this morning. I'll hope that readers will understand my reply today as a generic comment about certain distortions in the "economy of vounteerism," especially as it affects our creative professions. It is often promoted by the academy. In reply to your comment, I certainly _can_ understand why someone would _sometimes_ perform services without pay. Why would you suggest otherwise? Please be fair. I do make some important distinctions in performing services as a volunteer. And I admit these are fuzzy ones at times. I hesitate before supporting ordinary commercial operations (or even officially registered "nonprofit" entities) which solicit my professional labors without offering any recompense, enticing me to give away what I must normally trade, in order to make a living. That damages the market value of what I and others must sell to support our families. Yes, I know it is often called "paying the dues." But I've found that most clients have always had a lot more respect for my successes in that part of the marketplace where I have to compete with lots of professionals fighting for a sale. My support of community efforts, like my church or youth groups, as a volunteer is rarely related to my profession. I enjoy volunteering when I discover an opportunity to help in the community: leading young people on hikes, decorating the church or helping in fundraising drives to buy playground equipment etc. I may be all wrong about this, or just a little wrong. I'll take that chance. And as I mull over such matters, I promise to keep on scratching my head. Thank you for the chuckles with the quote from Samuel Johnson. Still, I have no reason to think that he had his tongue in his cheek when he wrote, "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." Best, David ----- Christine Shuttleworth wrote: > > David Robert Austen wrote: > > This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are > > sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever= > ? > > I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work > > myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade tha= > t > > book in for groceries. > > David (or should I say David Robert?) is obviously of the same mind as > Samuel Johnson, who said: "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for > money." However, I think that the good doctor had his tongue in his cheek= > > when he said that. > > If David R. can't see why one might sometimes perform a service for no > reward, I don't think I can explain it to him. Keep on scratching your he= > ad > there, D.R. > > Christine > > *************************************************************************= > * > Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services > Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB > Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 > email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com > or 106234.1745@compuserve.com > *************************************************************************= > * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AOL Book Indexer Chat Room Susan, FYI, clicking on "Book Indexers Chat" brings up an error message, "Invalid room name." Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:57:07 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: ASI Kansas-Missouri group meeting AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS Kansas-Missouri Group The next meeting of the Kansas-Missouri group will be held on Saturday, October 11, 1997, from 1:00 to 4:00 p.m. Location: Columbia Public Library Friends Meeting Room 100 W. Broadway Columbia, Missouri Topics: 1. Running a freelance business (roundtable discussion) 2. Editing book indexes (roundtable discussion) 3. Report on the 1997 Annual Conference (Winston-Salem) There will also be a short business meeting. For more information and directions, please contact me. -- * Mary Mortensen * mmortensen@one800.net * Lawrence, Kansas, USA * marymort@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:00:17 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Mass. fall conference Due to an unexpected space crunch at the Westin Hotel and to the high number of registrations already received, the Mass. Chapter announces that registration for our September 27 workshop will close on Friday. If you have not mailed in your registration, we hope you will join us at a future event, and we thank all who responded so quickly and enthusiastically to our program. Please contact Barbara Stroup for information on the "Facing the Text" workshop (Do Mi Stauber, presenter) in November. ****************************************** Note correct address: 297 Fountain St. Springfield MA 01108 phone: 413 785-1835 and e:mail indexa2z@the-spa.com and please correct your ASI Membership Directory and Indexer Locator!! ******************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:13:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free) In-Reply-To: <199709091428.HAA12016@mx2.u.washington.edu> I agree with David that academia in particular often abuses volunteerism. The view within it goes back to the good old days when academics were all independently wealthy and there were certain things gentlemen did not do, i.e., send a bill. While times have changed, the elitist attitude of those in academic power has not. Yes, by all means, let us continue to support small presses, to provide reviews that are nothing more than exchanges for free books, etc., but when a cooperative volunteerism crosses the line into exploitation, the bill should follow. And besides, how many of us provide free academic indexes for books? Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:35:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments In-Reply-To: <199709090417.XAA05855@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Copyediting vs. indexing: I've always charged roughly the same amount per >page of print-to-be-read, so I don't think it's mattered too much in terms >of gross income -- or is there something I'm missing? But I know >copyediting is sometimes more *fun* than indexing and makes a great change >of pace.... Alas, all my clients paid a set hourly rate, one that was nowhere near what I can make indexing. Sounds like *I'm* the one who's missing something! ;-) This is not to say I wouldn't do copyediting for other types of clients. Anybody listening? Copyediting more fun? Hm. Except for the clean-up, which I detest. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:35:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: FPO In-Reply-To: <199709090417.XAA05855@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations. >I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration >or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me >what that means? For placement only. In other words, hold this space for an illustration, which the printer will insert at the proper time. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:11:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Capitalization in Cross-References In-Reply-To: <199709091516.AA10923@world.std.com> I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30 software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also" cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S. Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an uppercase S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct! Obviously, if the client insists, I'll comply. I sometimes figure it's part of my job to point out style standards for indexes but to do what they want anyway. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:12:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Frank Stearns Subject: Notes about Indexing in FrameMaker A few notes about FrameMaker markers -- They are indeed a bit tricky to work with. One way to perform deletions is to use the search engine's ability to look for markers, then cut or delete the found marker. As far as multiple index entries per marker, no problem -- use the semicolon to separate entries. Whether you want multiple entries per marker is a personal choice, but there is a 255 character limit for each marker. Usually, one marker per entry is easiest for many people. In terms of document integrity, you can "stack" as many markers as needed in one place. These do not affect the text in any way. The overhead is there, but it is so trivial as to be hardly noticeable. Now for a very brief commercial: The FrameMaker marker system is quite good and delightfully flexible, but the interface is atrocious. That's why we came up with a product called IXgen. IXgen is a set of tools for accessing and creating FrameMaker markers. The maintenance tools let you quickly (and in bulk) edit marker text, either in textual context or in the context of an alphabetically sorted list. Permutations can be made, along with capitalization unification. The creation tools provide good starting points but are NOT concordance tools (unless you force them into this mode). The upshot is that YOU are still in charge of indexing in FrameMaker, it's just that the mechanics have been made so much more simple. About to enter its fourth year, IXgen has won much praise from current users. For more information, including demos, please visit our web page. + -- T O L L F R E E ( I n U S A ) : 8 0 0 / 5 6 7 - 6 4 2 1 -- + + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + | Frank Stearns Associates | Developers of Tools for FrameMaker(r): | | mailto:franks@fsatools.com | IXgen, FM2A, Programmable Export Kit | | 360/892-3970 fx:360/253-1498 | Now shipping IXgen for Windows!! | + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + | http://www.pacifier.com/~franks (Email if web page access problems) | + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:17:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question In-Reply-To: techndex@pacbell.net "Re: Another FrameMaker question" (Sep 8, 7:01pm) It appears that both Lynn and I have some solid preferences regarding the placement of FrameMaker markers. Have you noticed? :-) I think the difference between our approaches is directly related to *where* we index, not how we index or what the embedded files look like when we're done. My FrameMaker indexing happens during the process of the writing itself, Frame; Lynn tends to create the index someplace different and then "rewrite" the markers into otherwise completed files. When the index is written separately -- and a lot of indexers, who love their indexing software, prefer this method -- you get a chance to fine-tune the text of each entry way in advance. In my case, there is no index until I start to type markers, and the index isn't visible to me until I generate it using FrameMaker (which is why indexers prefer indexing software in the first place). In my case, then, I am constantly editing marker text, and so it's important for me to be able to locate the markers easily. Also, because the book is being written, markers are occasionally moved around without my knowledge, or else the text of the markers needs to be updated to reflect new writing decisions. This is never more obvious than when a new edition of a book is in production and contains the shattered remnants of an index I wrote. Some markers are missing because headers moved. My end markers are destroyed because of global formatting changes. Text is inaccurate because language has changed. Ranges have become single-page entries or vice versa. Maybe even a <$startrange> or <$endrange> marker has been moved into another chapter, making a page range across eight chapters or even reversing the order. All of these things happen because the markers are *embedded*, which means they go wherever the text goes. When a book is rewritten, the markers shift, and this is disastrous. Lynn hints that when she works on a book that has some index markers in it already, she deleted them all. :-) Sometimes I do the same, to avoid the trouble of correcting index marker placement for an out-of-date index. I will say that having never worked with older versions of FrameMaker (which means I have never experienced the bug Lynn mentions, or the unscrollable marker window), I don't have the old die-hard habits. I still prefer the multiple entries within each marker, though, because I like to stay out of the text window as much as possible. I can't afford the huge windows on my monitor because I need to be reading several paragraphs at once (since I'm still writing the entries), so the text tends to be small and hard to navigate. I also think it's easier to make several edits in one index marker than in another, because entries are often grouped together in concept. If I had to make only occasional edits because of misspellings, as Lynn does, then I would prefer her approach: to keep things as sparse as possible to make misspellings stand out. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) <-- NOTE THE NEW DOMAIN O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth <-- NEW DOMAIN Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:17:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Jaffe Subject: beginner Hello to all. I am currently enrolled in the USDA Graduate School's Basic Indexing course and was wondering if others on the list had started with this program. Unfortunately, I seem to be on the two-year plan, and keep forgetting what I've learned. I must say that most of what I've read on this list server has been way over my head. I would love to hear any suggestions on further education, helpful books, etc. I am a Respiratory Therapist and have worked in the medical field for ten years, and hope to find work indexing medical textbooks. Do most Indexers specialize? I would also like to know, for future reference, what software is good for Windows 95. Thanks. Linda Jaffe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: How about if we just give you a book? Dear ones, I still scratch my head when I think about accepting a book as the sole payment for hours of labor reading and writing. I'm not (yet?) an indexer, but in the more than 20 years of my own dealings, publishers have very rarely refused to give me a free copy of the book that I requested, _always in addition_ to normal payment for services rendered. I can say free book because neither party has ever considered it any kind of recompense. It's in their budget be able to give sample books away. Remember that eventually other copies of the book will need to be remaindered or even eventually shredded. Sad, but true. This is just to give indexers another perspective on the world of publishing, from my one small window on that world. Jeeesh! My contribution has got to be pretty much the same value as yours. What's a book review or an index worth? Don't these help sell more books? I hated finding a book without an index, even before I met all of you helpful folks. And I love reading a good book review. I also love the idea of a world of many small businesses (much like my own) and I like to support them, usually by buying their works and then telling all I know about their excellent products. That's just my way of supporting a business, of course. And I don't know how to write a review, I'll confess. David _____ P. Buell wrote: > > I agree with David that academia in particular often abuses volunteerism. > The view within it goes back to the good old days when academics were all > independently wealthy and there were certain things gentlemen did not do, > i.e., send a bill. While times have changed, the elitist attitude of those > in academic power has not. Yes, by all means, let us continue to support > small presses, to provide reviews that are nothing more than exchanges for > free books, etc., but when a cooperative volunteerism crosses the line > into exploitation, the bill should follow. And besides, how many of us > provide free academic indexes for books? Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:59:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Reference book of interest to indexers I am forwarding this from a mailing I received this morning from Amazon.com's Editor's series on books for writers. I have not looked at this book yet and I DO NOT work for Amazon.com, just buy books from them from time to time. The book sounds interesting because of the different glossaries and other words grouped by subject category. It might prove to be useful in certain indexing situations. I thought many of you would find it interesting to know about this book, that's all. ******** The principal title reviewed in this Expert Editors message is: "A Writer's Companion" by Louis D. Rubin Jr.,editor Publisher: HarperCollins You can find this book and more at http://www.amazon.com/reference ****** Desk space is always a limited, and therefore precious, commodity. Bookshelves can be reshuffled, but books that usurp desk space must really earn their salt. A dictionary and thesaurus, an atlas, style guide, and almanac--these were the books I kept within arm's reach. But now I've rearranged my desk to make room for one more: Louis D. Rubin Jr.'s "A Writer's Companion." In "A Writer's Companion," now in paperback, Rubin produced a rare work of reference, a giant of its genre in compact form. It's so practical that I wonder how I eked along before I had it. The 66 categories run the gamut of topics that might interest writers, editors, fact-checkers, teachers, cross-word puzzlers, and insomniacs. There's a glossary of watercraft and another on firearms, a run-down on famous trains, plus popular songs, rock performers, current slang, epic heroes and heroines, a glossary of literary and critical terms, and popular radio shows. There's also a category of Native American tribes, a glossary of economic lingo, a guide to famous animals, a list of baseball pennant contenders, plus still more glossaries of scientific, psychoanalytic, legal, philosophical, and gastronomic terms. There's just about everything you could wish to keep your writing (and discourse) accurate and erudite. Each individual's needs are different, but some of the chapters impressed me right off. "The Guide to Ruins" is excellently done, and the chronological list of historic battles and campaigns is especially useful for those of us who can never keep straight what happened in Megiddo, Aix-en-Provence, Midway, and Chechnya. I'm also grateful for the chapter on treaties spanning the agreements from the 843 Treaty of Verdun to the 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty. I like that "Some Famous Novels" includes principal characters and settings, greatly simplifying the task of finding Doctor Zhivago's full name (Dr. Yurii Andreievich Zhivago), or remembering that Betsy Trotwood and Mr. Murdstone were from "David Copperfield." Reading about slang is also interesting: it's instructive to learn that the insult "asshole" dates back to 1350-1400, while "baby-sitter" didn't originate until 1945-1950 (indicative of when the need for those terms arose?). "Major Religions of the World" is another gem. It's hard enough to keep the holy people of one's own religion straight, but included here are the major holy days, personages, and rites of passage for Protestantism, Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, and Chinese Folk Religion. In his preface, Rubin explains why he undertook this book. Having written and edited for 60 years (plus founding Algonquin Books and teaching English), Rubin knew the sort of book he'd always craved: an eclectic compilation of time lines, lists, and glossaries in one desk-sized volume. Upon retiring, Rubin commenced the reference book of his dreams. The result is a book that will easily win one of your coveted desk spots, filling both literally and figuratively the gaps left by your dictionary, thesaurus, and almanac. --Stephanie Gold freelances from a small office in San Francisco, where bookshelves and desk space are at a premium. You'll find Stephanie's favorite reference books on the shelves of Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/reference ****** If you have friends who might enjoy this mailing, please feel free to forward it to them. To become a new Editors subscriber, or to sign up for additional categories, visit http://www.amazon.com/editors ****** ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:07:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Capitalization in Cross-References -Reply SARAH, neither upper nor lower case S(s)ee is inherently correct. It should not really matter as long as all S(s)ee references are done consistently. Whether the S(s) is capped or not really relevant to the purpose the index is supposed to serve, directing index users to the material contained in the manual. >>> Sarah H Lemaire 09/09/97 12:11pm >>> I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30 software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also" cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S. Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an uppercase S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct! Obviously, if the client insists, I'll comply. I sometimes figure it's part of my job to point out style standards for indexes but to do what they want anyway. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:09:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Notes about Indexing in FrameMaker As a satisfied customer, I'd like to comment on Frank's mention of his product IXgen. I suggested it to my department after *many* people at the STC conference recommended it. We use it now and are pleased with the time saved both creating and edited indexes in FrameMaker. The biggest advantages to IXgen are not having to use the miniscule little marker window Frame provides, and being able to create an editable list of entries. You don't have to search through a long string on entries in the window to find what you're looking for. Using IXgen solved for us a lot of the problems that have been discussed in this whole thread of "Indexing in FrameMaker." -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:12:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Capitalization in Cross-References At 12:11 PM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30 >software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also" >cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have >collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S. > >Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an uppercase >S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct! > This will certainly depend on the style for capitalization. For example, in our documentation, we only capitalize product names. Since nearly everything is lower case, so is see and see also. Personally, I'd be more likely to put them in lowercase even if the entry were uppercase, but that's a subjective response. -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jane E Stoyle Subject: Re: FPO In-Reply-To: <199709090132.VAA10809@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> Craig, FPO near an illustration means "For Position Only" - it is a printers term, and is used when a photocopy of artwork/photograph is included in the hard copy, and the printer is to replace it with original artwork/photograph prior to printing the book. Jane Stoyle NCEER Publications Manager e-mail: jestoyle@acsu.buffalo.edu Phone: 716-645-3391 Fax: 716-645-3399 On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Craig Brown wrote: > I've done lots of indexes for books with copious illustrations. > I usually receive second-pass pages. Beside each illustration > or photograph appear the initials "FPO." Can anyone tell me > what that means? > > (Not an important question. Just driving me nuts.) > > Craig Brown > The Last Word= > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:47:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free) To all. I must come out of semi-hibernation to comment on the "work for free" debate. BRIEF ENTRY is a publication by a group of indexers, for indexers, to help all learn about issues in indexing the law throughout the world. As such, it is little different from the ASI newsletter, KEY WORDS, except that it is not supported by ASI or SI, etc. It expects to meet its expenses by selling subscriptions and advertisements. If it does indeed meet expenses yet, I will be surprised. I'm sure Betty Moys can enlighten us about that! If professional indexers were not willing to give of themselves, to volunteer, in support of their organization and for the benefit of all, there would be no indexing societies, no local chapters, no newsletters... Some who serve in these organizations receive reimbursement for their expenses incurred, but it is never enough to cover all the money spent, and it is never reimbursement for time. In this way, it is no different from local community organizations. This is a community of indexers, and the more we give to each other, the more we get in return. Elinor Lindheimer Past President American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:12:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Capitalization in Cross-References - Reply In response to Sarah H Lemaire, who says, "I'm trying to politely convince my new client...to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also" cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S"-- Sarah, At Grolier we use lowercase "s" for our "see" and "see also" references in all our encyclopedia indexes. Also, Hans Wellisch, in "Indexing from A to Z," uses lowercase "s" in the section about cross-references, and in all the examples throughout the book. I personally think the lowercase looks better if there is no punctuation preceding; if the publisher wants, say, a period preceding the "see," then an uppercase "s" would look better. (Compare "Clemens, Samuel see Twain, Mark" and "Clemens, Samuel. See Twain, Mark.") Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:23:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Capitalization in Cross-References -Reply At 01:07 PM 9/9/97 -0400, Mark Dempsey wrote: >SARAH, neither upper nor lower case S(s)ee is inherently correct. It >should not really matter as long as all S(s)ee references are done >consistently. Whether the S(s) is capped or not really relevant to the >purpose the index is supposed to serve, directing index users to the >material contained in the manual. The only time I'd find a lower-case "s" a real problem is when the "See" or "See also" reference is preceded by a period, as it is in many indexing styles: Bears. See Polar bears Bears, 123, 321. See also Polar bears However, in a setup like this, it wouldn't matter to me: Bears See polar bears Bears see Polar bears Bears, 123, 321 see also Polar bears =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:23:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Fall Workshop Hi, I would like very much to attend the Fall Workshop---the program is just what I would like. However, I'll be out on the west coast at the time. Please let me know if there are any handouts I could send for, or a a syllabus, perhaps. Please keep me informed of future workshops, conferences, etc. Thanks, Thelda Bertram TBrtrm@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:55:25 -0500 Reply-To: sdhdis@mail2.theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Re: Beginner Linda, I am also taking the USDA course. I think it is big on mechanics, but small on the thought processes involved in indexing. I checked out two books from the library (it was a very large library that had these) - "Indexing From A to Z" by Hans Wellisch and "The Art of Indexing" by Larry S. Bonura. Both had many helpful points and guidelines. The Bonura book even has a section called "Eight steps to creating an index." As far as Win95 software goes, many people have kindly answered my recent query about that subject. The bottom line is that Sky Index (http://www.sky-software.com) and Cindex (http://www.indexres.com) will both release professional Win95 versions in the next few months. Both are well regarded. Several of the replies I got also said that, for someone planning to become a professional indexer, the lower priced softwares are not up to the task. Susan D. Hernandez ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:12:50 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal" Subject: Re: Beginner I'm another beginner, another USDA student, another Win95 user, and also wondering about indexing software. Right now I'm leaning towards Macrex, because they offer a $200 discount to USDA (and other) students, and in my impoverished state that pretty much tips the balance. Does anyone know if they have plans to release a Win95 version any time in the future? I do not think I will be buying the software anytime soon, since I'm only on lesson #3 and who knows, I might turn out to really stink at indexing and the money would be wasted. As I'm proceeding at the rate of about a lesson a month, I don't anticipate buying this software for at least another 8-10 months (if ever). Maria McNeal ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:15:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Fall Workshop You are on our mailing list at present. We will be cleaning that list the first of the year. But we will be offering a newsletter suscription by that time. Do Mi will be giving her presentation in several other places, but I do not have a listing. Sandi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:18:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Beginner At 02:12 PM 9/9/97 -0600, Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal wrote: >I'm another beginner, another USDA student, another Win95 user, and also >wondering about indexing software. Right now I'm leaning towards Macrex, >because they offer a $200 discount to USDA (and other) students, and in >my impoverished state that pretty much tips the balance. Does anyone >know if they have plans to release a Win95 version any time in the >future? It's my understanding that a Win95 version is not coming anytime soon, Maria, but I'm a very satisfied Macrex user who operates the program in a DOS window under Win95 absolutely flawlessly. And I just got a new interim release which appears to speed things up even more with some emendations and improvements. You're smart to wait to buy any serious software until you've gotten far enough along to know for sure that the investment will be what you want. As you say, you may end up hating indexing, so why spend several hundred dollars immediately if you don't absolutely need to? I downloaded the Sky Index program from its website (not the professional version, just the plain vanilla software) and was intrigued with its ease of use and the Win95 interface it offers. For $99, it's quite adequate for the occasional user--and might work nicely for you until you decide to take the plunge on Macrex. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:25:16 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free) In-Reply-To: <199709091429.HAA19450@pacific.net> David wrote: >My support of community efforts, like my church or youth groups, as a >volunteer is rarely related to my profession. and Paul wrote: >And besides, how many of us provide free academic indexes for books? Ah! There is the nub of what has troubled me about the concern of its being volunteer work in this instance. I too have heard of the courtesy never to ask a professional to volunteer for what she or he does for a living. But what was being requested was not free indexing services, but a review of a book, the review to be written by someone qualified to review it, in this case an indexer. This is not then a case of free professional work, but a development of professional knowledge/standards, etc., which journals for professions specialize in. As soon as indexers are as moneyed and powerful as M.D.s I will expect recompense for writing in our journals and newsletters. Until then, I consider it community service--in this case, the community of indexers. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:24:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free) In-Reply-To: <199709092135.OAA27822@mx3.u.washington.edu> Victoria: I guess the discussion wandered off. I write for newsletters all the time and expect nothing in exchange. I completely agree with your sentiments. Where I draw the line would be doing, for example, medical abstracts for the National Library of Medicine gratis. A newsletter, a journal that barely breaks even are peanuts, but there are some publications out there that are very much for profit but will still try to tap into volunteerism. I suspect that is where David really has his gripes. And to respond to David's posting, the $245.00 book I got for my last scholarly review was ample payment for two hours work on a topic (Mongolian dictionaries) I love. The time before that I got another valuable book I could never afford and before that a volume of Needham, Science and Civilization in China, that I could certainly not afford. I am happy with the present arrangement for academic reviews and and long as I can choose my cause I am happy to volunteer. However, the for profit journal (it was Ethology and Sociobiology, if anyone is interested) that did not so much as provide a printed copy of my article and tried to bill me for reprints, ah, there lies the rub....... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:26:09 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! (Free) Good point, Victoria. Victoria Baker wrote: > > David wrote: > >My support of community efforts, like my church or youth groups, as a > >volunteer is rarely related to my profession. > > and Paul wrote: > >And besides, how many of us provide free academic indexes for books? > > Ah! There is the nub of what has troubled me about the concern of its > being volunteer work in this instance. I too have heard of the courtesy > never to ask a professional to volunteer for what she or he does for a > living. But what was being requested was not free indexing services, but a > review of a book, the review to be written by someone qualified to review > it, in this case an indexer. This is not then a case of free professional > work, but a development of professional knowledge/standards, etc., which > journals for professions specialize in. As soon as indexers are as moneyed > and powerful as M.D.s I will expect recompense for writing in our journals > and newsletters. Until then, I consider it community service--in this > case, the community of indexers. > > Best, > Victoria > > vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:24:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Legal entry query I am working on an index with numerous legal entries. The text has habeas corpus in both italics and roman type. Can indexers who specialize in legal work tell me if there is a correct type style or if either can fly? TIA, Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:51:59 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suzanne Eggins Subject: moonlighting I'd be grateful if some of those who started out as indexers while still working in another fulltime job could share their experiences of the double-life. In particular: 1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them? Did you tell them what your main job was? 2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump" into fulltime freelancing? All advice (to me privately or to the list) gratefully appreciated. Many thanks, Suzanne Eggins ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:25:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: moonlighting In a message dated 97-09-09 20:53:17 EDT, you write: I've been moonlighting since 1991, averaging 15-20 hours per week indexing in addition to my full-time job as a medical librarian. Yes, it can be done, particularly if you have don't need much sleep and are adept at juggling work, freelance, and personal responsibilities. << 1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them? Did you tell them what your main job was? I've done a couple of mass mailings, have a listing in 'Indexer Services' [formerly Index Locator], and use any other advertising medium that doesn't involve an ethical conflict with my full time job. The important thing is NOT to include your day job phone number, email address, title, or any other 'day job' identification in your freelance ads. And also to let your employer know about your outside career and to make sure they know that you are not conducting an outside business on their time. 2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump" into fulltime freelancing? >> I have always let indexing clients know that I'm a moonlighter and made it clear that my indexing is totally separate from my role as a librarian. For instance, my clients know that I need a week per 200 pages of text and that they need not call me when they need an index for a 400 page book in 48 hours. I simply can't handle it. The bulk of my indexing is done evenings and weekends, and days off are a foreign concept when I'm on deadline. (The longest stretch a couple of years ago was 8 months with exactly 2 days when I wasn't indexing! Now I just enjoy the down time between indexes.) At the same time, I may turn down projects during the period when I know the day job is going to require extra hours to produce annual reports, grant requests, etc., or when there are special things going on in my personal life (like kids' high school graduation) that require Mom's involvement. It's all juggling and knowing your own limits. I've been moonlighting for 6 years, and it will probably be another 3-4 before I make the move to full time (until the last daughter is out of college). Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service Bellevue, WA. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:31:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book? Although I agree that one wants to watch out against being exploited, I think there is a fundamental difference between creating an index for a book that will be sold for profit, and contributing a review to a journal that while it may be sold, certainly will not make a profit. Most scholarly journals are not run profitably. I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the invoice along with the amount owed. I do occasionally write book and video reviews for review journals. As a librarian I know that my professional life, and the professional life of my colleagues, is made easier by the availability of reviews for the process of selecting materials. Many review journals have been started up by librarians frustrated because they could not find reviews of the material they have to buy. To me this falls in the same category as doing volunteer work for a professional association. there are professional associations that I do not volunteer for because I don't approve of how their money is spent. There are a number of others however where I have done stints at whatever needs to be done, because of (in gratitude for?) the professional benefits. Perhaps part of the difference in viewpoints expressed about reviews is that (I suspect) there are two slightly different uses for reviews. One is to sell the book itself, or the journal the review is in, which implies that the review should be linked to the profits (as an index is). The other use of reviews is to help select materials. For librarians this means that reviews are used to compare, evaluate, reject and choose materials. They are, in the jargon, "selection tools", although rejection is as large a part of the process as is selection. With the amount of material published today, the availability of reviews is essential. It would be ironic if libraries had to pay so much for access to the reviews (since if all reviews were paid for, the costs of the journals would skyrocket) that it hindered their purchase of other materials I realize that many scholarly journals have only small sections of reviews, but I think the uses those reviews are put to are similar. Christine ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Documentation and Library Systems Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:04:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Cindex and LPT2; Have any of the Cindex users on the list had occasion to need to print from Cindex to the LPT2; port? The version I have of Cindex (6.0) by default prints only to LPT1. For reasons too complex to explain here, I need to be able to send Cindex output (rather than a word processed version - which would be no trouble) to a second parallel port (card) not the motherboard's LPT1. Reassiging addresses won't work. I tried e-mail to Frances, but they may be traveling or something - no response. If any of you have done this, how? Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:19:42 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book? You've enlightened me. I'm certainly a "foreigner" in these parts. I can see some of the important issues now and accept that I was blind to some of them. Thanks for explaining it so carefully, Christine. It's good we're looking at this matter and learning. Thank you all for your input. David ----- Christine Jacobs wrote: > > Although I agree that one wants to watch out against being exploited, I > think there is a fundamental difference between creating an index for a book > that will be sold for profit, and contributing a review to a journal that > while it may be sold, certainly will not make a profit. Most scholarly > journals are not run profitably. > > I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the > invoice along with the amount owed. > > I do occasionally write book and video reviews for review journals. As a > librarian I know that my professional life, and the professional life of my > colleagues, is made easier by the availability of reviews for the process > of selecting materials. Many review journals have been started up by > librarians frustrated because they could not find reviews of the material > they have to buy. To me this falls in the same category as doing volunteer > work for a professional association. there are professional associations > that I do not volunteer for because I don't approve of how their money is > spent. There are a number of others however where I have done stints at > whatever needs to be done, because of (in gratitude for?) the professional > benefits. > > Perhaps part of the difference in viewpoints expressed about reviews is that > (I suspect) there are two slightly different uses for reviews. One is to > sell the book itself, or the journal the review is in, which implies that > the review should be linked to the profits (as an index is). The other use > of reviews is to help select materials. For librarians this means that > reviews are used to compare, evaluate, reject and choose materials. They > are, in the jargon, "selection tools", although rejection is as large a part > of the process as is selection. With the amount of material published today, > the availability of reviews is essential. It would be ironic if libraries > had to pay so much for access to the reviews (since if all reviews were paid > for, the costs of the journals would skyrocket) that it hindered their > purchase of other materials > > I realize that many scholarly journals have only small sections of reviews, > but I think the uses those reviews are put to are similar. > > Christine > > ************************************************************************* > Christine Jacobs > cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca > > Co-Chair > Documentation and Library Systems Dept. > John Abbott College > P.O. Box 2000 > Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 > of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 > ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:20:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Legal entry query In-Reply-To: <199709092323.QAA07567@mx3.u.washington.edu> Habeas corpus is a foreign term and should normally always be underlined or Italicized. God only knows what lawyers do. I usually follow the Chicago Manual of Style. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:23:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2; At 08:04 PM 9/9/97 -0700, you wrote: >Have any of the Cindex users on the list had occasion to need to print >from Cindex to the LPT2; port? It won't work. Cindex for DOS supports only LPT1. I went through this same thing a while back. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:36:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book? In-Reply-To: <199709100305.UAA23036@mx3.u.washington.edu> Christine: very well put, but many scholarly journals do make a fat profit, or they would not be published by companies such as MacGraw-Hill, although it may be for the publisher that the profit comes. I pity, however, librarians using reviews to make selections. I am constantly amazed by the ignorance of many of those writing reviews. Far too often these are people at the very beginning of their careers trying to make a few toad points but not knowing enough to evaluate the book they are supposed to be evaluating (for examples, look at reviews of the book by an English author I forget--Wood?--on Marco Polo, trying to debunk his journey. Only one of the reviews I saw even mentioned textual problems, the key issue.) There are also the ideological reviews, in the Journal of the American Historical Association, for example. And then there are the friendly reviews with reviewers often carefully selected by the author or by the publisher for this that purpose (I confess that I have written a few of those). Then there are the many books that are never reviewed. When I used to be a member of the American Historical Association and got their journal I always looked at the list of books received and not reviewed, rather than the book reviews themselves. The latter tended to be of the politically correct books, although not always. What I felt were the most interesting new publications were usually on the non-review list. Then there are those with axes to grind, who will say nothing kind about a book no matter what. A final problem is the selection against ground breaking books that threaten the established empires of those in a field. So, pity the librarians that have to rely on book reviews to stock the shelves of their libraries. Paul D. Buell PS: Actually, I think I have just made some excellent arguments for newsletters and small journals and their volunteer reviewers who care most of the field and have fewer axes to grind. So maybe we have come full circle. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 01:45:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: toad points? Okay, Paul Buell has used the term "toad points" three times now, and others besides me must be ignorant on this point -- where's that phrase from, Paul? I've always heard "brownie points," and can't think how you get from there to toads (except via elves sitting under toadstools, which is about as far-fetched an etymology as I can think of). Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:59:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2; In a message dated 97-09-09 23:10:33 EDT, you write: > Have any of the Cindex users on the list had occasion to need to print > from Cindex to the LPT2; port? The version I have of Cindex (6.0) by > default > prints only to LPT1. For reasons too complex to explain here, I need to be > able to send Cindex output (rather than a word processed version - which > would > be no trouble) to a second parallel port (card) not the motherboard's LPT1. I have my PC connected to an Apple LaserWriter Pro 600 on my parallel port. I couldn't get CINDEX to print, so I finally called Apple. They referred me to the thumbwheel on the back of the printer. They told me to turn off the printer, change the thumbwheel from "0" to "1" and then turn on the printer again. This setting is *just* for printing from CINDEX. I must change that printer setting back to "0" in order to print from MS Word or any other program. Hope this helps. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:46:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Schupac@AOL.COM Subject: suspend mail hello - i usually receive the index-L mail through a local server where my address is schupack@vbimail.champlain.edu however, my computer is now having difficulty accessing Netscape through this server. until further notice please suspend index-l messages. thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:43:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chantal Hamill Organization: Steedman Ramage Subject: Re: moonlighting Suzanne Eggins wrote: > > I'd be grateful if some of those who started out as indexers while still > working in another fulltime job could share their experiences of the > double-life. In particular: > 1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did > you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them? > Did you tell them what your main job was? I do not advertise apart from a listing in the society of Indexers directory in the UK. I do not want too much work, and I can hardly cope with my present workload. Publishers do know that I work 'on the side' although I do not see it that way. That is how I started. I index almost exclusively law books, and the first law publisher who employed did so because he knew that I was familiar with Scots law concepts. They know that indexes will not come very quickly. I suppose that when they want a fast job, they do not ask me. > 2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies > did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump" > into fulltime freelancing? I do not have anything as grand as a strategy. I just do it. It is an excellent excuse for neglecting housework and other hateful activities. Like you I work in the evening and at week-ends (what else is there?). I do not see myself ever 'jumping'. My work as an indexer feeds on my full-time job as a law librarian. My very choice of headings tends to change according to some experiences I have as a researcher (I use the books I index and so do my library users, and woe betide me if we cannot find what we are looking for!). Apart from the security of the full-time job (I am too anxious a person to go completely freelance, even now, when the demand on my services has greatly increased, as I would develop high blood pressure at the very thought of work drying up), the two jobs make for variety, one would be just boring. Chantal Hamill Steedman Ramage WS 6 Alva Street Edinburgh EH2 4PS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:54:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Indexer Chat Room Hi The meeting for the AOL Book Indexers Chat went very well. It was short notice so only five people showed up but we had a fun chat and if anyone wants a partial copy of the dialog E-mail me. We didn't decide to log it until half of it was gone...lol. We decided to try setting up a ICQ Chat Room for all indexers from any Internet provider. The first meeting will be next Thursday, September 18th at 8:30 p.m. Central Time. This will give anyone interested time to download the program from the Webb Site: http://www.icq.com. Once you have it installed the program the UIN number for the Chat room is 3240043. There are detailed instructions of how to operate the program at the webb site and very easy to follow but if you have any questions E-mail me: Bookdexr@aol.com The first official AOL Indexer Chat Room will be held next Monday, September 15th at 8:30 p.m. Central Time. For those that are not familiar with the time zone and I wasn't until recently: Pacific 6:30 p.m. Mountain 7:30 p.m. Central 8:30 p.m. Eastern 9:30 p.m. not sure about the rest of the world. Thanks Susan Bookindexr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:07:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Re: Legal entry query -Reply This is not intended as a bash or anything approaching a bash, but it does seem odd to me that habeas corpus is considered a foreign term. Thiw right is guaranteed in the Constitution (Art I, ?9, which is a series of limitations on the powers of Congress, quoted in relevant part below), which is the supreme law of the land (USA at least). When, if ever, does a word or phrase lose its foreign character? ....The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it. ..... >>> P. Buell 09/09/97 11:20pm >>> Habeas corpus is a foreign term and should normally always be underlined or Italicized. God only knows what lawyers do. I usually follow the Chicago Manual of Style. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:30:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: toad points? At 01:45 AM 9/10/97 -0400, Helen Schinske wrote: >Okay, Paul Buell has used the term "toad points" three times now, and others >besides me must be ignorant on this point -- where's that phrase from, Paul? > I've always heard "brownie points," and can't think how you get from there >to toads (except via elves sitting under toadstools, which is about as >far-fetched an etymology as I can think of). My guess (because I haven't had time to check anything like a slang dictionary or other such thing) is that "toad points" has something to do with the standard dictionary definition of "toady" as in a person who "toadies" up to people or "engages in sycophancy." This interpretation brings the term closer to "brownie points," I think. Paul??? Is this how you meant it to be? ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:09:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Legal entry query -Reply Either can fly. Habeus corpus is, obviously, a Latin term, so it can justifiably be put into italics. However, it is also a very common legal term and frequently-- perhaps usually-- appears in regular Roman type. Personally, I kind of prefer having it in italics-- it is stylistically correct, and lord knows we lawyers and legal-types tend to have abysmal writing styles. Anything that preserves the English language is fine by me! :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: Legal entry query Pam Rider wrote: > > I am working on an index with numerous legal entries. The text has habeas > corpus in both italics and roman type. Can indexers who specialize in legal > work tell me if there is a correct type style or if either can fly? In the "Bluebook," more formally known as _A Uniform System of Citation_ and used to guide copyediting in many legal publications, I find: "Italicize foreign words or phrases that have not been incorporated into common usage. There is a strong presumption that Latin words and phrases commonly used in legal writing have been incorporated into common usage and thus should not be italicized..." In Minnesota Statutes, we don't italicize habeas corpus and the like. Neither does West's _Words and Phrases_. On the other hand, Black's Law Dictionary does italicize those words when they occur in the bodies of definitions. So while there doesn't seem to be an absolute rule, the "Bluebook" statement is a good guide. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:02:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Beginner and Thanks Linda Jaffe asks for suggestions on helpful books for asipring indexers. Read books of the type you plan to index, but read = them from the back end forward. That is to say, that if you study the indexes of nonfiction books you will soon find that you can distinguish between good and bad indexes, and you will become familiar with the many techniques indexers use (or don't use) to make an index useful to the reader. When I began to become interested in indexing as a possible career, I spent a fair amount of time in this pursuit. It has now become a habit, as I imagine it is for many of us, to look at the index before anything else when perusing. On another topic, I wish to thank everyone who took the time to respond (onlist and off) to my question about FPO. Thanks! Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:14:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: toad points? At 01:45 AM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Okay, Paul Buell has used the term "toad points" three times now, and others >besides me must be ignorant on this point -- where's that phrase from, Paul? Probably from "toady" -- one who flatters in the hope of gaining favor. See also "sycophant" Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:44:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: toad points? In-Reply-To: <199709100546.WAA27489@mx2.u.washington.edu> Sorry, I always forget: "toad points" is UCLA slang, used in reference to the "points" (yes, like "brownie points") that one gets from "toadying" up to the professors. Toads are low and squat, resembling students when they get down on all fours. It's like "brownie points" only better. What do you expect from a generation of students who identified with rats. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:16:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: query sheet & software In a message dated 97-09-09 09:31:29 EDT, you write: << As a re-entering indexer who has no capital at the moment, can I get by with Word 95 for at least one or two indexes or should I really try to come up with the money for a good software program as I try to get re-established? >> Certainly you can 'get by' with just Word; you can also get by with a stack of 3x5 cards and a shoebox. But the question is, do you really want to? An indexing program (even a very basic one) automates much of the drudgery of indexing (i.e., formatting, sorting, layout) and lets you concentrate on the creative part - assigning subject headings, structuring, etc. I did my first index using a database program and a word processor on my husband's Mac; the fee from that one was used to purchase a used 286 and Cindex (this was in the days before Mac indexing programs were available); the 286 got upgraded within 7 months to a 486, which lasted me for the next 5 years. Any professional indexer should invest in a full-featured indexing program at the earliest opportunity; it will pay for itself with your first index, purely in terms of time saved and headaches avoided. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. i ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:18:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "C. M. Jacobs" Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book? Re >..... I pity, however, librarians using reviews to make selections. I am >constantly amazed by the ignorance of many of those writing reviews. Far >too often these are people at the very beginning of their careers trying >to make a few toad points but not knowing enough to evaluate the book they.... [big snip] Yes Paul -- it's a dirty job but someone has to do it. And to make matter worse the poor librarians may have to have at least two reviews other than the blurbs from the publisher's catalogue (especially if the reviews are not from a review journal) before a purchase can be made. On top of that, some public libraries have to pass it through committee. It would be much nicer to just order the book/video/map/cd-rom... and just return it if one didn't like it, but time being valuable, and postage and handling being what it is... By the way -- as indexers we can be happy that selection librarians are taught to try to avoid books that are reviewed as having no indexes or poor indexes. I don't know about toad points really working. One's peers can be pretty biting if the work is not up to scratch. I suppose if the people on the tenure committee are too dense to recognize a padded publication list when they see it... Christine **************************************************************************** Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Documentation and Library Systems Program (514) 457-6610, loc 470 John Abbott College Fax: (514) 457-4730 Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: ASI pub on indexer training I'm getting ready to update ASI's publication on training in indexing, and I'm writing to ask listmembers for information and leads. Obviously, I'll lift the information that's already available on the ASI web pages, but I suspect that much is omitted in that list. For example, I'm sure I need to contact library schools, the Society for Technical Communication, and the Special Libraries Association about the courses they offer. Can you folks suggest other organizations I haven't thought of? Any while I'm asking, can any tell me where I might find a complete list of American library/ information science programs? Finally, may I ask a favor of those of you who learned indexing on the job? If the employer who trained you does a good job of indexer training, would you let me know? Many of us learn on the job, but little is said about learning to index this way. I think we ought to spotlight employers who train indexers well. Private mail would be fine for responses. Thanks in advance. This list is unfailingly helpful. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:17:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Dye Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training Jennifer Dye@ITP 09/10/97 12:17 PM Maryann, You can get a list of ALA-accredited library/information science programs at http://www.ala.org/ Most (probably all) of the listings include email contact information. Jennifer * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jennifer J. Dye (jdye@gale.com) Bibliographic Authority Control Specialist Gale Research 835 Penobscot Building Detroit, MI 48226-4094 Voice (313) 961-2242 x1889 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:35:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sara Miller-Hively Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training In-Reply-To: <199709101616.MAA17029@mailbox.syr.edu> Hi - just a scrap of info - here at the Syracuse Information Science program, the course is Abstracting and Indexing - was taught by Liz Liddy last year (Barbara Kwasnik has taught it also) - the faculty contacts and course info are on the web page at istweb.syr.edu On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Maryann Corbett wrote: > I'm getting ready to update ASI's publication on training in indexing, > and I'm writing to ask listmembers for information and leads. > > Obviously, I'll lift the information that's already available on the ASI > web pages, but I suspect that much is omitted in that list. For example, > I'm sure I need to contact library schools, the Society for Technical > Communication, and the Special Libraries Association about the courses > they offer. > > Can you folks suggest other organizations I haven't thought of? > > Any while I'm asking, can any tell me where I might find a complete list > of American library/ information science programs? > > Finally, may I ask a favor of those of you who learned indexing on the > job? If the employer who trained you does a good job of indexer > training, would you let me know? > Many of us learn on the job, but little is said about learning to index > this way. I think we ought to spotlight employers who train indexers > well. > > Private mail would be fine for responses. Thanks in advance. This list > is unfailingly helpful. > -- > Maryann Corbett > Language Specialist > Office of the Revisor of Statutes > Minnesota Legislature > 612-297-2952 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:37:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Capitalization in Cross-References Sarah, In the index to Minnesota Statutues, we use a lower case "s" in "see" references, but use uppercase for the item referenced, e.g., Court cases, see Lawsuits under this topic We use an uppercase "s" in "See also" references because "see" is always the first word of the reference. Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-09 12:13:32 EDT, Sarah wrote: << I'm trying to politely convince my new client, for whom I'm indexing 20-30 software manuals, to use an uppercase S in "See" and "See also" cross-references. All the style manuals I checked (and I seem to have collected a lot over the years) use uppercase S. Does anyone think that it should be a lowercase s instaed of an uppercase S? I'd just to make totally sure that I'm correct! Obviously, if the client insists, I'll comply. I sometimes figure it's part of my job to point out style standards for indexes but to do what they want anyway. >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:59:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Blackburn Subject: Society of Indexers meeting The meeting in Dublin was very interesting -- I was lucky to be there fro= m Canada, thanks in part to support from SI and the IASC/SCAD, and enjoyed meeting all the other indexers at least fifty, mostly from the U.K. I contributed to the "international forum" on Saturday afternoon, with six other participants who commented on indexing in their countries. = We had a talk on "professionalism" from John Simkin, Past Preside= nt of the Australian Society of Indexers and now President of the Victorian branch of AUSSI. John felt we had better learn about things like data bas= e indexing and thesaurus construction if we don't want to be considered mer= e "technician" book indexers. Dr. Mary Burke, Head of the Department of Library and Information= Science, University College, Dublin, spoke to us on "Meaning, Media and t= he Internet". She emphasized that meaning is dependent on users, and distinguished levels of meaning. Dr. Burke then discussed Internet searci= ng at present, whether employing rough classification schemes such as Yahoo = or the automatic extraction of character strings by search engines such as Alta Vista. She emphasized problems such as the mechanical searching for= words without context, but also discussed some current research efforts t= o improve the situation (including getting the creators of Web pages to employ indexers to associate subject terms with their material). The conference closed for a few hours out of respect for the funeral of Princess Diana, but then members of the Society of Indexers discussed their training and apprenticeship programs. One of the conclusions was that apprenticeship may be very good for the apprentice b= ut can cause problems for the experienced indexer. Another suggestion was th= at indexers who have been indexing for a number of years should take "refresher courses" to keep up-to-date. At the international forum on Saturday afternoon, seven speakers discussed the state of indexing in their home countries. After dinner on Saturday evening, Elizabeth Wallis and Doreen Blake related entertaining anecdotes from "Forty Years of the SI". = On Sunday morning we had a very interesting discussion on the indexing of children's books, from Ken Bakewell and Paula Matthews. The most important conclusion was that indexers of children's books must consider the abilities of the children who will be using the indexes. Demonstrations on the latest developmemts from Cindex and Macrex were made last, preceding Society business and a farewell lunch. A more complete report will be published in the September edition= of the Bulletin of the Indexing and Abstracting Association of Canada/Societe canadienne pour l'analyse de documents (IASC/SCAD). If the= above notes were of interest and you would like to see a more complete report, please contact me at CBlackburn@compuserve.com or contact the editor, Ginette Chandonnet, at soumah@microtec.net. Let us know as quickl= y as possible, so we can increase the print run if necessary. I'm sure that= small donations to IASC/SCAD at PO Box 744, Station F, Toronto, Ontario M= 4Y 2N6, Canada, would be gratefully received in order to help cover any extr= a printing costs. Hope to hear from you, and also hope to make it to Seattle next year! Christopher Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:19:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Thanks: Legal entry query Thanks to all who have responded to my query about habeas corpus. The work I am dealing wih is not an official legal text and I should have gone to a reference it's always best to check first: Merriam Webster's 10th. It's a main entry and not italics. One note: I am pleased to see how many indexers appreciate that styles vary and that style is a choice and is not synomous with being correct. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:17:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Blackburn Subject: Society of Indexers meeting Janet, Thanks for your message. I really enjoyed the Dublin conference an= d will be publishing a report in the September issue of the IASC/SCAD Bulletin. Let me know if you'd like to receive a copy. Chris Blackburn, CBlackburn@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:48:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes In-Reply-To: <199709101520.IAA29341@mx3.u.washington.edu> Christine: actually, tenure committees love padded bibliographies, etc. They often create them themselves (that is to say, if you think the current system has anything at all to do with scholarship or that "peer" review is worth a fart boy have I got a bridge to sell you). Even several reviews may not be good enough since they may all sing the same refrain. (Academics tend to sing in chorus, as you may have noticed.) The solution in book buying for libraries, in my view, is to have librarians who also have area knowledge, that is, who also have the academic skills needed to figure out what is good and what is bad on their own. Indiana had such a system when I was there and I know of other libraries that do something similar (I happen to know that the librarian at UC Riverside is a Mesoamerican specialist herself, as well as being a librarian). I also think it important that faculty work closely with the librarians. We do at Western Washington University. The librarians, all of whom I think I know fairly well (at least the ones who have been there for years), hear a great deal from me about what books to buy. Of course, the final decision is up to them. We even go them one better by working trades--my new book for yours, etc.--to get good books for the library that it might not otherwise afford. I recently got something quite rare that way, an important, but privately published book that none of the UC system libraries have (heh, heh!) On having good indexes, etc.: I absolutely refuse to take a book seriously that lacks a good index and a real bibliography. When I evaluate a book I look first at the bibliography, then at the index. The bibliography tells me if the author "knows anything at all about the topic upon which he is writing" (Fielding). For example, is the really important scholarship cited, what primary sources are listed, does the author show evidence of being able to read the foreign language materials that may be necessary to approach his or her topic. A spot check of the index tells me how the author treats his or her material. A history of Byzantium that has no entry on Constantinople is not likely, for example, to be very useful. One that treats of the first Byzantine renaissance after the 9th century and has no entries on Const. Porp. or Photios is not likely to be worth reading. Then I read the book. So, yes, indexes are very important. Of course a good book can have a poor index. But that is the publisher's karma. That is like books with so many typos you can't read them... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:50:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Thanks: Legal entry query In-Reply-To: <199709101717.KAA11673@mx3.u.washington.edu> RE: Italics. Am I the only one in the world that capitalizes Italics because the word is related to italy? Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:00:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position In-Reply-To: <199709062014.QAA18247@cap1.CapAccess.org> Dear folks I'm on the advisory board for Chadwyck-Healey's International Index to Music Periodicals. I think that Roberta has the right idea. The other point that I know about is that Chadwyck-Healey indexed many many music periodicals, some of them very obscure. If an indexer working on the West Coast is indexing 20 periodicals, how does C-H get the periodical to them? Or would the indexer be expected to supply their own copy? Those are questions that I know that C-H is wrestling with. I forwarded Sam Andrusko's message to one of the editors at Chadwyck-Healey. I could let you know what's up if you like. Regards Julia Marshall DC Public Library juliam@capaccess.org On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Roberta Horowitz wrote: > One possible reason for the need to be onsite, is that many database > producers index directly online as this is quicker and allows for validation for > certain fields as the data is inputted. If this is the case and the company > is not set up for people to dial into the corporate database from outside > locations, then you would have to be onsite to do the job. > > Roberta Horowitz > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:46:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LBaker@GALE.COM Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes Larry Baker@ITP 09/10/97 02:46 PM Paul Buell makes a good point regarding good indexes *and* bibliographies: "I absolutely refuse to take a book seriously that lacks a good index and a real bibliography. When I evaluate a book I look first at the bibliography, then at the index. The bibliography tells me if the author "knows anything at all about the topic upon which he is writing" (Fielding). For example, is the really important scholarship cited, what primary sources are listed, does the author show evidence of being able to read the foreign language materials that may be necessary to approach his or her topic." I'd insert one small caveat, however. The reader needs to be aware of what the desired market is. If a book is aimed at, say, the middle school or high school market (I work at a publisher that publishes many student products), then the omission of foreign language materials doesn't necessarily mean the author doesn't know about important sources in other countries. In fact, we urge authors to steer clear of foreign language materials--or at least to keep them to a minimum--since librarians want to make sure the sources that are cited are also pretty accessible. Filling up a bibliography with hard-to-find (not to mention impossible-to-read by 99% of that market) or out-of-print material does the student or librarian no good. There have been times (usually with electronic products) when a reviewer has totally missed the fact that a product has been specifically designed for a student market (Read the front matter! Read the press release! Read the name of the catalog! etc. etc.) and just assumes that everything they come across is designed for the mass market! Aaaaargh!! Not *everything* is designed by Bill Gates for home use!! But, again, I understand where Paul is coming from, and his points about a good bibliographies are right on target. Larry Baker Gale Research LBaker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:16:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Thanks: Legal entry query Going again to Merriam-Webster's 10th: as a typeface it's lowercase,as a reference to ancient Italy, its peoples, or their Indo-European languages, it's capped. Capitalization of common words that began as proper nouns is idiocyncratic in English. Common words from proper nouns/names that would be incorrect if capped include ohm, watt, hertz, and so on. I try to check with a good dictionary. At 10:50 AM 9/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >RE: Italics. Am I the only one in the world that capitalizes Italics >because the word is related to italy? Paul D. Buell > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:27:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training About that URL - is there a WWW. before it, or an http://? On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:35:33 -0400 Sara Miller-Hively writes: >Hi - just a scrap of info - here at the Syracuse Information Science >program, the course is Abstracting and Indexing - was taught by Liz >Liddy >last year (Barbara Kwasnik has taught it also) - the faculty contacts >and >course info are on the web page at istweb.syr.edu > > >On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Maryann Corbett wrote: > >> I'm getting ready to update ASI's publication on training in >indexing, >> and I'm writing to ask listmembers for information and leads. >> >> Obviously, I'll lift the information that's already available on the >ASI >> web pages, but I suspect that much is omitted in that list. For >example, >> I'm sure I need to contact library schools, the Society for >Technical >> Communication, and the Special Libraries Association about the >courses >> they offer. >> >> Can you folks suggest other organizations I haven't thought of? >> >> Any while I'm asking, can any tell me where I might find a complete >list >> of American library/ information science programs? >> >> Finally, may I ask a favor of those of you who learned indexing on >the >> job? If the employer who trained you does a good job of indexer >> training, would you let me know? >> Many of us learn on the job, but little is said about learning to >index >> this way. I think we ought to spotlight employers who train indexers >> well. >> >> Private mail would be fine for responses. Thanks in advance. This >list >> is unfailingly helpful. >> -- >> Maryann Corbett >> Language Specialist >> Office of the Revisor of Statutes >> Minnesota Legislature >> 612-297-2952 >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:32:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position How about good old snail mail (USPS)? Suellen On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:00:02 -0400 "Julia B. Marshall" writes: >Dear folks > I'm on the advisory board for Chadwyck-Healey's International >Index to Music Periodicals. I think that Roberta has the right idea. >The >other point that I know about is that Chadwyck-Healey indexed many >many >music periodicals, some of them very obscure. If an indexer working >on >the West Coast is indexing 20 periodicals, how does C-H get the >periodical to them? Or would the indexer be expected to supply their >own >copy? Those are questions that I know that C-H is wrestling with. I >forwarded Sam Andrusko's message to one of the editors at >Chadwyck-Healey. I could let you know what's up if you like. > >Regards >Julia Marshall >DC Public Library >juliam@capaccess.org > >On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Roberta Horowitz wrote: > >> One possible reason for the need to be onsite, is that many database >> producers index directly online as this is quicker and allows for >validation > for >> certain fields as the data is inputted. If this is the case and the >company >> is not set up for people to dial into the corporate database from >outside >> locations, then you would have to be onsite to do the job. >> >> Roberta Horowitz >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:00:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes In-Reply-To: <199709101900.MAA09756@mx4.u.washington.edu> Larry: good points. I do not expect my granddaughter's book on ancient Greece to cite all the latest literature. On the other hand, a book on Iceland in the 11th century that intends to be scholarly rather than popular had better cite and use Icelandic and other Scandinavian primary and secondary literature. Yes, in all depends upon audience. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:19:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: "cheaper freelancers" Recently I went to a party for information searchers. When the time came for introductions, nearly every one of the fifty people in the room said that they were or wanted to be freelance searchers because they had been downsized. Downsizing is the reality of the nineties whether we like it o= r not. The old days of pioneering freelancers are gone. But are the new freelancers taking in-house jobs for cheaper prices? I'd say yes, but not= intentionally. Thanks to IRS rules on independent contractors, the main reason a company outsources is that it has a function that is irregular. Hence it needs to be able to hire freelancers only when it actually needs= them. However, when companies downsize one function, it causes other layoffs. Freelancers know that to earn a living, we have to get paid more= than salaried workers because we have to pay for our own supplies and tax= es and handle our own accounting, marketing, computing, recordkeeping, filin= g and other needs. Likewise when one type of employees are let go, the company no longer has to provide these kinds of support services for them= and cuts support functions (e.g. accountants, librarians, etc.). All thes= e people are out of work too. Some of them can freelance in their fields; others decide to change fields. It seems clear to me that freelance indexing rates are, if not declining, at least not rising. I think this i= s due to the increased supply of downsized employees coming into the information field. Because of the increased supply of workers, freelance= rs are driving each other's and salaried wages down. But it's no good criticizing each other for working "cheaper" or complaining that publishe= rs don't value our work. Supply and demand is what initially sets rates of pay. Freelance or salaried, I think all of us who care about making a living and preserving standards of indexing need to get together and try = to deal constructively with downsizing. = ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:14:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position Suellen Yes, there is mail but there is also a cost factor, unlike a book which is a one time item, with journals you can be talking about 20 to 40 pounds of journals a week and that postage would be twice (coming and going) and this can added up. Also, the publisher has to worry about having the journals lost or damaged in the mail. This is not a reason not to use telecommuting, just some more facts why a publisher might not want to consider it. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 03:32 PM 9/10/97 EDT, you wrote: >How about good old snail mail (USPS)? Suellen > >On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:00:02 -0400 "Julia B. Marshall" > writes: >>Dear folks >> I'm on the advisory board for Chadwyck-Healey's International >>Index to Music Periodicals. I think that Roberta has the right idea. >>The >>other point that I know about is that Chadwyck-Healey indexed many >>many >>music periodicals, some of them very obscure. If an indexer working >>on >>the West Coast is indexing 20 periodicals, how does C-H get the >>periodical to them? Or would the indexer be expected to supply their >>own >>copy? Those are questions that I know that C-H is wrestling with. I >>forwarded Sam Andrusko's message to one of the editors at >>Chadwyck-Healey. I could let you know what's up if you like. >> >>Regards >>Julia Marshall >>DC Public Library >>juliam@capaccess.org >> >>On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Roberta Horowitz wrote: >> >>> One possible reason for the need to be onsite, is that many database >>> producers index directly online as this is quicker and allows for >>validation >> for >>> certain fields as the data is inputted. If this is the case and the >>company >>> is not set up for people to dial into the corporate database from >>outside >>> locations, then you would have to be onsite to do the job. >>> >>> Roberta Horowitz >>> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:18:39 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: "cheaper freelancers" maybe, but it doesn't need to be that way. I'll write of the world of temporary and/or part-time employees and their earnings in Down Under. In New South Wales, the state I know best (and hope I remember clearly for these purposes) employers must pay a premium hourly wage for these workers because the government recognizes that these workers miss out on certain benefits normally provided by employers. The employees must arrange their own superannuation, medical plans and such. It amazes me to see (in comparison) that part-time workers in the USA miss out (usually) on decent wages, and also benefits. And, in an employer's group plan, FT permanent employees get less-expensive health benefits than are available to us who buy our own insurance "out here." Freelancers are not quite the same as contract employees, I know, but we face many of the same problems, of course. Getting away with this only encourages employers to shed full-time workers and use the many part-time, contract and freelance employees who exist because of last year's shedding, as you point out, Nancy. Perhaps those huge differences in remuneration exist because these three groups are typically not unionized or organized, and as such, do not form a voting block that politicians take notice of. Of course, it would be a violation of antitrust laws if we, unlike a union, all decided we needed to lift rates 10%, or whatever. Recently, one of you suggested that indexers should be charging about 1.3 or 1.5 as much as normal employees earn (or cost?) in order to cover our own costs for insurance and so on. Perhaps that person will come back and refresh our collective memory. I think the next step would be a rates survey, and a salary survey, so we can know how much cheaper we come. Meanwhile, feel lucky you don't live in Los Angeles where the "pencil police" will, without appointment, start visiting creative types in their bedroom offices any day now, hands out for taxes. For those of you who do live there, my sympathies - and please advise us on our own preparations for that dreaded day in towns from Missoula to Middletown. Yours, DRA Nancy K Humphreys wrote: > > Recently I went to a party for information searchers. When the time came > for introductions, nearly every one of the fifty people in the room said > that they were or wanted to be freelance searchers because they had been > downsized. Downsizing is the reality of the nineties whether we like it o= > r > not. The old days of pioneering freelancers are gone. But are the new > freelancers taking in-house jobs for cheaper prices? I'd say yes, but not= > > intentionally. Thanks to IRS rules on independent contractors, the main > reason a company outsources is that it has a function that is irregular. > Hence it needs to be able to hire freelancers only when it actually needs= > > them. However, when companies downsize one function, it causes other > layoffs. Freelancers know that to earn a living, we have to get paid more= > > than salaried workers because we have to pay for our own supplies and tax= > es > and handle our own accounting, marketing, computing, recordkeeping, filin= > g > and other needs. Likewise when one type of employees are let go, the > company no longer has to provide these kinds of support services for them= > > and cuts support functions (e.g. accountants, librarians, etc.). All thes= > e > people are out of work too. Some of them can freelance in their fields; > others decide to change fields. It seems clear to me that freelance > indexing rates are, if not declining, at least not rising. I think this i= > s > due to the increased supply of downsized employees coming into the > information field. Because of the increased supply of workers, freelance= > rs > are driving each other's and salaried wages down. But it's no good > criticizing each other for working "cheaper" or complaining that publishe= > rs > don't value our work. Supply and demand is what initially sets rates of > pay. Freelance or salaried, I think all of us who care about making a > living and preserving standards of indexing need to get together and try = > to > deal constructively with downsizing. = ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:17:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: moonlighting Suzanne, I'm still part time by choice as I like a mix of different things to do. My 3/4 time job is as psychiatric emergencies clinician and I'm on call only. If I don't get beeped, I am at home, and I get paid whether I get called or not. So I sort of double dip. I also have small part time jobs that I do for fun, currently one in a nursery--specifically taken to learn about plants in order to index gardening books. I have plenty of time free for indexing, but I try to take only one at a time. It doesn't always work out that way due to slipped schedules, but I seem to average about one index per month. This is what I had always planned on from the beginning. Also I have no husband or children or boyfriend (or girlfriend, to be pc), just a million cats, so I don't have to juggle anyone else's schedules or needs with my own. This is good and bad. I do tell publishers I'm part time, and that I take only one project at a time. They seem to like that, and also they understand and don't hold it against me when I turn something down. They know I make my deadlines. I also tell them when I'll be going on vacation (this happens about every 2 years) and I stop accepting projects enough in advance to guarantee nothing slips into the vacation. I have no plan at all to go full time. I like doing different things, and getting out to meet people. If I were indexing full time I think I'd be extremely lonely and bored, and wouldn't be able to focus very well. I'm lucky (or persistent, or crazy) enough to have trained myself in various fields (can you Attention Deficit Disorder? I'm a textbook case) and worked hard to get the kind of schedule that gives me so much free time yet still generates a pay check. I think I'm an unusual case for a part timer. But it works for me. I think that when I move to Vermont in the spring I won't go for an on call job but might sign on with a couple of temp agencies, and then when I have an index I just won't take assignments. I'll also look for a part time therapist job. I don't think I'll make any drastic changes in the way I take on indexing work, though. In fact, I don't do much marketing because I've got exactly the amount of work I want now. Anyway, that's one way of being an indexer. Good luck. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:30:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Political violence Carol wrote: << Without actually seeing the book, it's hard to second-guess, but I would ordinarily list that sort of thing under violence, since "political" is an adjective, and "political violence" isn't a common phrase like "real estate." And in philosophy books, "political" or "politics" is often too broad to use successfully as a main heading.>> Actually, "political violence" is a common phrase these days in political science/sociology/etc. books. It's used to describe civil conflicts like Bosnia, Somalia, etc. in a way that includes all kinds of , well, political violence. So it might well be a fine entry. As Carol says, it all depends on the context of the book. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:01:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: "cheaper freelancers" -long reply As I raised earlier on the list, this is an issue that I am quite sensitive to. I am currently a FT in-house indexer, which I enjoy very much, but the business climate that Nancy notes is all-pervasive. We merged recently with another, smaller publishing company that uses outsourcers almost exclusively (all of whom are former, downsized employees, I might add), and to further complicate matters, our mutual parent company (who bought us both out and merged us) is not actually in the "dead tree" publishing business-- they are an online company. One of the first things we were asked to do was justify our existence to our new bosses (they don't have in-house indexers, so why do you?). There were and are a lot of good reasons for keeping us in-house that I won't belabor here, and we finally won the day on that one, but I see the handwriting on the wall, and as our parent and grandparent companies keep bringing in new people and new managers who are either unfamiliar with paper publishing or unfamiliar with our publishing processes, we are going to have to continually justify our existence. Since in happier times one of the theoretical benefits of full-time employment was job security, it hurts to lose that. It's nice to say that if a company fires all of its FT employees and re-hires outsourcers to do the work that they should expect to pay more for the outsourcers to cover the additional expenses, but I can tell you that when employers start looking to downsizing and outsourcing, they are looking to save money. They wouldn't do it if they didn't think it was going to save them money, so I don't think that anyone can expect to make as much (in salary and benefits) as the in-house people made. In fact, as David pointed out, since companies get huge discounts on such things as insurance, the net income to the freelancer goes down dramatically. I found myself in great sympathy with the UPS workers on strike this year for precisely the same reason: Opposition to abuse of contract employees. This is a trend that has been going on in manufacturing for years and is becoming more and more commonplace. It's only now reaching our profession. 50 years ago, W. Edwards Deming proved that the companies who prospered the most were the ones that treated their employees the best, but the current corporate culture is no more accepting of this than they were then (which is why, incidentally, Japan has routinely kicked our corporate butts in the last couple of decades). As long as companies treat all of their employees-- full-time, part-time or outsourced-- as commodities, things aren't going to get better for any of us. I don't know what we can do to change corporate culture, but I welcome any suggestions. I'm sorry. It's late, it's been a long day, and I'm rambling. I'll shut up for now! :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:12:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: moonlighting In-Reply-To: <199709100409.XAA02231@mixcom.mixcom.com> >1) Did you advertise as an indexer when you were moonlighting? If so, did >you tell publishers you were only indexing on the side? Did it worry them? >Did you tell them what your main job was? I had a lot of contacts in publishing (because I was already freelance editing), so I contacted them, and I contacted about half of the faculty members in my old PhD program (the half I thought I could stand working with). Come to think of it, the freelance editing began with the shotgun letter approach (but not advertising in the conventional sense). Yes, everyone I contacted knew that I was doing it part-time. I doubt that they all knew what my main job was (in-house editor). No one seemed to care so long as I delivered on time, which I always did. > >2) How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategies >did you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump" >into fulltime freelancing? For me it was very difficult, even though I limited myself to one book per month. Some of the difficulty was self-imposed: I have 2 small children, so I was determined to start my moonlighting work only after the kids were in bed, and I refrained from working on weekends. The rest of the difficulty was that I was on salary at my day job and was expected to bring work home as needed. Unfortunately, it was needed fairly regularly and unpredictably. (No, I was not paid overtime. Now you know, in part, why I'm a freelancer.) Although it was difficult for a time, I'm not sorry I did it, because it allowed me to see what indexing is really like without making a total commitment to it by giving up my salaried job. I can't quite remember how long I did that before quitting my day job (maybe a year--I was also freelance editing, so this gets murky). I remember struggling with the idea of plunging in. Then my mentor at the time told me to "fish or cut bait." I never did find out what that means, but further conversations with her and others on Index-L gave me the information and the support I needed to quit that day job (helped along by the fact that I was very unhappy in my job). The timing of it was that my husband was finishing up his degree, and I figured we'd probably be moving in a year. So I quit my job then, so I'd have a year to get my new business established, in comfortable surroundings, before having to pack up and move. It worked out pretty well. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ;-) Caroly Weaver brings up a good point: >And also to let your employer >know about your outside career and to make sure they know that you are not >conducting an outside business on their time. I would also add that if you have an actual contract at your day job, you'll have to check to see whether it allows freelance work. When I was moonlighting, I could accept work only from clients who weren't eligible to bring their projects in to the publications office. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:05:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: Book buying by libraries and indexes When I review books for Library journal--most say index in the tc but in the pre-proofs there is no index, so I have to say "index not seen." I agree if no index, I rate the book on a lower scale. Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:14:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: moonlighting What part of Vermont are you going to? I was born and raised there but we want to go to TN where the costs are lower and the weather is warmer. I also do various things: I do taxes, do tutoring (in algebra), do teaching for an International Correspondence Course, and now I am doing medical journal indexing--if all goes well, I will be doing that for a while, also. Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MRS SUSAN D HOLLER Subject: bidding on job Like many others, I've been following this list for some time and have gotten a huge amount of information. The one thing I have not seen mentioned is bidding on a job. What should you included in your offer besides the bid itself? What else would be appropriate - your experience, your interest in that type of book? Any info would be greatly appreciated. TIA Susan Holler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:58:33 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: marketing Dear Rachel Rice: You mentioned in a recent post that you hardly need to market any longer because you have the work you need. What marketing method did you use when you first started? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:55:58 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: apprentice Dear Carol Roberts: You mentioned in your recent post that you had the aid of a mentor. How did you find such a person? How did you present yourself to them to show that having an apprentice would be of benefit to them? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:15:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position HI all, When I index journals, the publishers send me a copy of the journals as they are published. It's like having a subscription. The last few for each year come early as folios so that the final issue can have the complete index. I don't think its all that expensive for them. After all , they send out thousands to the other 'subscribers'. It must be considerations other than postage that determines their need for an inhouse indexer. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:35:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: bidding on job With newer clients who require a bid, I use the bid form as a contract as well, just as contractors who furnish bids on putting in a driveway, installing a fence, remodeling, etc. In other words, I say something like, "I propose to furnish a subject [author, etc.] index to [blank (title)}, a work of some [blank] pages. Based on the sample material furnished me, I estimate the index will consist of approximately [blank] entries. Index copy will be furnished in [Microsoft Word for Windows 7.0] (or whatever format is desired) by [e-mail] [disk] (depending on what the editor wants) no later than [blank} days following the date I receive final page proofs. The charge for the above index will be [blank] payable within 30 days of delivery of index copy to [blank.] Then I include a place for my signature and for the editor signature. This has obviated the need for any type of special contract as ASI suggests. Charles Anderson Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:03:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book? Christine Jacobs wrote: > I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the > invoice along with the amount owed. Not sure I want to get involved in this discussion, but... can you say more about this, Christine? I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you charge your client for a copy of the book you are indexing? (Usually my clients send me one free copy.) Do you charge for a copy and then buy it yourself after publication, instead of having the client send you one? How do you know how much it is going to cost? Or am I (as usual) missing a point here? :-) Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:58:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position I think this is in response to my message about the cost of mailing journals could be a factor for not using outside indexers. For clarification, I was referring to online databases that can be indexing any where from 500 to 6000 plus titles (from many publishers) and in these case the journals are received in house, processed to create the bibliographic records, then index etc. This type of production flow would be very different than a journal publisher creating an index for a particular title or creating the end of the year index that occurs in the final issue of the year. My normal work load is between 30 and 50 journals a week and those boxes are heavy. As with any work situation there are a lot of variables that are not always obvious which contribute to management decisions. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 11:15 PM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >HI all, > When I index journals, the publishers send me a copy of the journals as >they are published. It's like having a subscription. The last few for each >year come early as folios so that the final issue can have the complete >index. I don't think its all that expensive for them. After all , they send > out thousands to the other 'subscribers'. > >It must be considerations other than postage that determines their need for >an in house indexer. > Sharon > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:49:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: copyediting more fun? I would like to put my vote in on this subject. I vote for indexing as infinitely more fun. I copyedit every once and a while, when broke or when offered a terrific job. Other than that, my business (which at the start was about 70% copyediting, 30% indexing, 0% proofreading) is presently 90% indexing. And that is by choice. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:42:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Taxes Kara wrote, << I have a question regarding when one is required to begin paying self-employment tax. >> I highly recommend hiring a Licensed Tax Preparer. I struggled through my first year of estimated taxes etc. on my own, then found my "tax guy." He's a one-person business like me (I read an article once that said to hire an tax person with the same size business as yours), and came recommended. I pay him about $100 a year, and he does everything except write the checks (well, I keep track of expenses and income and give him a list), including answering questions like that one over the phone for free. The money is very well worth it. Good luck, Kara! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:45:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: moonlighting In answer to the question << How difficult is it to handle indexing as a second job? What strategiesdid you use to cope with the work? At what point did you decide to "jump"into fulltime freelancing? >> ........... How difficult is it? I'd say very difficult! BUT, the caveat is that if you want something badly enough, you do difficult things. In my situation, I had indexed as a moonlighter for many, many years, had gone away from it, and had come back to it due to extreme staleness and unhappiness at my (unrelated) day job. I knew what I wanted, and I was willing to sacrifice and work my fingers to the bone to get my freelancing to a point where I could leave the fulltime job. It was difficult for 2 reasons. First, holding down 2 "jobs", when one of them is a growing business means you can't/won't get much sleep. I had obligations to my clients, and the list kept growing. I took on as many jobs as humanly possible so that I could "grow" the business. One client at a time wasn't enough for me. So it was difficult to keep up with the volume of work needed. I had to do dinner -- whether prepared *by* me, or *for* me -- and then go to work, for as long as I could before the need for sleep overtook me. Often I'd fall asleep at my desk. Of course, I had to get enough sleep to be reasonably functional at my day job, which demanded a lot of me too. So I walked a tightrope there. Index quality had to be high, sleep had to be had, and a shower and clean clothes was important too. Fortunately, I had a very encouraging and undemanding husband, who understood and supported me. It was also difficult because I had to have a way to return calls from clients during the day, in a timely manner so as not to miss out on jobs, and not from my desk at my day job, of course. I used the USWest messaging service, so that it was easy to retrieve messages periodically throughout the day. I would make return phone calls from a pay phone in the lobby, and hope I didn't get into a phone tag situation. Sometimes I'd be able to slip one in if my boss was at a meeting or something, using a calling card for long distance calls. But I rarely did that because it made me so nervous. I used a mailbox location as my business address, to do away with delivery problems on packages of proof (since I wasn't home by day to receive them), and to obviate trips to UPS or FedEX's office to retrieve non-delivered signature-required packages. I still keep that address. It works like a charm. All in all, it was a bear! It didn't take too long (about 3 years, with the last getting extremely hectic) before I had so much work, I couldn't do it all. I literally wasn't getting any sleep. I was still very fearful of leaving the safe haven of a steady salary and paycheck. It is very much a golden trap. Fortunately, my friends and husband were very persuasive, and I gave notice, and began my new life. PS -- I've never looked back! It's been very good - in every way. I guess you could say that good things don't come easy. But it can be done, and if you want it badly enough, you do it, and get past it, and move ahead. Good luck to all of you who are in this position! It can be done!! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:05:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Arizona Meeting -- Last chance to register Arizona Chapter, American Society of Indexers MEETING Date: Saturday, September 20th Topic: ONWARD TO ONLINE: USING YOUR INDEXING SKILLS TO MAKE ONLINE DOCUMENTS MORE ACCESSIBLE Speaker: Bonni Graham Location: Holiday Inn Casa Grande, 777 North Pinal Avenue, Casa Grande AZ Registration and networking 11:30 a.m.-12 p.m. Lunch 12-12:30 p.m. Program 12:30-2 p.m. ASI business meeting 2 p.m.-3 p.m. This interactive discussion will demonstrate how your existing indexing skills can be used to serve a new market: online documents. Bonni Graham has held a variety of positions in several San Diego software companies. Her documentation business, Manual Labour, claims a number of major corporations as clients and recently won an APEX Award for excellence in design. Menu: Tierra Melon: a melon crown stuffed with chunky chicken salad, garnished with fresh fruit. A vegetarian alternative is available. Fee: $20 Registration: Email your reservation to CarolC777@aol.com, then send check made to ASI to : Carol Chroneos 1960 E. Bendix Drive Tempe AZ 85283 Deadline: Monday, September 15 For more information contact either Janet Perlman (Phoenix) at 602-569-7302, or Nan Badgett (Tucson) at 520-825-2892. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:14:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position Are these medical journals or others?? Just curious since I am just doing medical journals and still learning on them. I can't imagine being able to do 30-60 a week on medical journals--but of course I am in the learning state, also. Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:19:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI pub on indexer training Maryann, The American Library Assn Directory used to, and may still, list lib schools in a separate section. However, I haven't consulted it in several years. Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:56:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: marketing Hi Kevin, At first my "marketing" was word of mouth, telling everyone I knew I was an indexer and looking for work. It was hard to say the words when I had never done one yet, but eventually I got one and after that it was easier. Then I got lucky and was approached by a company who had seen something I'd posted here (!!) and I've been working steadily for them ever since. Then I got a referral from a fellow indexer (Thanks again!) and worked steadily for that company until I raised my rates and they dumped me (we discussed that here when it happened) but then I got another job from them anyway by referral. (That is to say, they gave my name to someone else who hired me--at my new rate!). Then somewhere in the middle of all this I did some cold calling and got one steady customer out of that, which was just about right. (I called about 12 publishers, so that was a pretty good rate of return.) For whatever it's worth, that was my "marketing." I think if I wanted to generate more business I'd do the cold calling again, but I'd do a much better job of it now, and would research the companies I called a little better. And, I've referred companies to 4 people from this list, and those 4 people are now working from my referrals, so if anyone wants to refer anything to me, that would be lovely. I'd like to get into ophthalmology (my previos career) and any animal books. And that's also what I do for "marketing." I know, I'm a bit unconventional, but it seems to be working for me. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:14:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robert Huerster Subject: subscribe Subscribe Robert Huerster ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:59:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: marketing Hi everyone :-), I am a beginning indexer as well. I am just starting to market myself. How do you know which companies use free-lance indexers to be able to even call them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you choose them? I am interested in history, genealogy, antiques, computers, printing, typesetting but will tackle any subject that doesn't require you to have a thorough knowledge of it. Did you just go to the Literary Market Place subject section and just start dialing or is there a more sure way of telling who uses free-lance indexers. I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one response said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use free-lance indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the ASI's directory? Thanks Susan bookindexr ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:23:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Jaffe Subject: Re: marketing Hi Rachel, I have been giving alot of thought to how I am going to actually get a business going. The thought of cold calling just tears me up. I am not a salesman by any stretch. I had thought t o write to publishers on very nice letterhead, enclosing a card and a sample of work, maybe. Is that a reasonable approach? I do not have any contacts in the publishing industry, as that is not my working background. I was curious as to the careers people were in before they became indexers. I'm also enrolled in the USDA Proofreading class, which is not too exciting but at least may generate some income. Any comments on that field? Linda Jaffe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:11:48 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Copyedit-L Could someone please tell me how to get in touch with Copyedit-L (or whatever it's called)? Thanks Christine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:21:50 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Marketing Further to Linda's query about cold calling (the prospect of which terrifies me too!). I decide to contact a number of publishers in a particular field, find out the phone numbers and ask the telephonist or some other minion who to address the letter to. I then send a personalised letter. I've never had the guts to ring and say 'did you get my letter'. Some contacts bear fruit after a remarkably long time. Some people really do keep the details on file! When I'm living in England (which I'm not at the moment), I also make a point of going to the London Book Fair with about thirty well-presented letters ready in envelopes. On arrival I study the catalogue (which they no longer send out in advance) and make a list of companies I could usefully leave my details with. The Fair is a good chance to look at their books and catalogues. The people on the stand are never the ones who commission indexes, but they know who is responsible, so I write out the envelope and 'Dear X' on the letter and ask the person on the stand (awfully nicely) to take it back to the office. I also make a note in my catalogue. I have had a gratifying amount of work this way. When I have got rid of all thirty I can go home with my head held high. I limit the number of copies I take with me, as it is remarkably tiring. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:36:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: marketing At 10:59 AM 9/11/97 -0400, Susan Wilkerson wrote: >I am a beginning indexer as well. I am just starting to market myself. How do >you know which companies use free-lance indexers to be able to even call >them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you choose >them? I am interested in history, genealogy, antiques, computers, printing, >typesetting but will tackle any subject that doesn't require you to have a >thorough knowledge of it. Did you just go to the Literary Market Place >subject section and just start dialing or is there a more sure way of telling >who uses free-lance indexers. The LMP is an excellent way to begin. Also "work backwards" by checking out the publishers of books you love to read. I like the LMP and other publishing lists because they usually give you actual people's names to write to or call. Since I hate cold calling, I will prepare a good letter and mention that I will be calling to check in soon and discuss possible freelance work. Then when I do call, the person has already been introduced to me, so to speak, and the conversation is much easier. If they never use freelancers, well, you're out the cost of a three-minute call. Otherwise, you may get a job. >I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one response >said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use free-lance >indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the ASI's >directory? A 1% response is average-to-good in the mass mailing department. Two or three responses would have been astoundingly excellent! Don't just send out letters and wait by the telephone. Send fewer, and vow to follow them up with phone calls within a reasonable length of time. The personal touch really does help you get more work. Good luck! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:45:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "C. M. Jacobs" Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book? Re: Copies of indexed books Ann asks >> I always bill for a copy of the book I index. It is right there on the >> invoice along with the amount owed. ... can you say >more about this, Christine? I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying >you charge your client for a copy of the book you are indexing? >(Usually my clients send me one free copy.) Do you charge for a copy >and then buy it yourself after publication, instead of having the client >send you one? How do you know how much it is going to cost? Or am I (as >usual) missing a point here? :-) To clarify how I handle acquiring copies of books I index: When I started 15 years ago I naively assumed that I would be sent a copy of the book automatically. WheN I found that I was not, I came up with a solution that saved me and the clients embarrassment (I did not have to ask and be refused or put off, and the client could plan for my copy from the start). Often the problems arose with authors who were given their alloted number of books and then found that after their mother, boss, etc had received their copies, there were no more to pass around. Since academic authors are usually responsible for their own indexes, the publisher would not look after this. I tell all clients that what I charge is my hourly rate plus one copy of the book. I include the copy on the estimate / contract / letter of agreement. Then when I bill I add at the end of the invoice (after the monetary amount and before the Payable 30 days): "Also one copy of [Title]". Now the only times that I do not receive a book is when the client forgets and I forget to follow up. And that happens relatively rarely. Because I am not very good at running after people, I found that this "runnning around beforehand" saved me quite a bit of angst. Hope that makes it clearer. Christine **************************************************************************** Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Documentation and Library Systems Program (514) 457-6610, loc 470 John Abbott College Fax: (514) 457-4730 Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:52:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: marketing In-Reply-To: <970911105649_-97513923@emout12.mail.aol.com> Susan wrote: >them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you choose >them? I looked in Literary Marketplace (available in the library) under the subjects I was interested in, and cross checked the ones that looked interesting in Writer's Market. I also just looked in the Boston Yellow Pages where there are dozens of publishers, and cross checked those as well. Then I just started calling. I had one "we don't have program like that here" and 2 asked me to send a sample and resume which I did. I should probably call those 2 and remind them of my existence. I also forgot that I did get a referral from someone else and that company asked for samples, and then called and said I was now on their approved indexers list and they would call, but it's been at least 6 months and I should probably call them, too. One good way to get in is with book packagers rather than directly to publishers. Book packagers take over the production of the book and hire their own freelancers (editors, indexers, etc.) and usually don't fuss too much about fees because they just bill the publishing company for the jobs. I'm not sure how to find them, though. Anyone have ideas? Probably they're in the Yellow Pages, too. Linda, You'll probably get other responses. I'm not good at getting mailings done, but some people swear by that approach. The thing is you absolutely must follow up your mailings with calls anyway. You could practice with a friend if you want, or at least plan what you're going to say very carefully before you call. After you do it a few times it gets a lot easier. It's never fun, not for me anyway. If you get a voice mail, and you aren't fully comfortable, I suggest not leaving a message until you've planned very carefully what you'll say. Some voice mail systems allow you to delete your message if you don't like it, but some don't, and if you sound hesitant, or unconfident, you'll be worse off than before. When I did the calls, I set a date to do them. When that date arrived, I crossed it off and set a new date. When that date arrived I crossed that off and set a new one. Then my printer started to fail and I needed work, so I did it right then without setting a date. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: How about if we just give you a book? C. M. Jacobs wrote: > To clarify how I handle acquiring copies of books I index: > > When I started 15 years ago I naively assumed that I would be sent a > copy of > the book automatically. WheN I found that I was not, I came up with a > solution that saved me and the clients embarrassment (I did not have > to ask > and be refused or put off, and the client could plan for my copy from > the > start). Often the problems arose with authors who were given their > alloted > number of books and then found that after their mother, boss, etc had > received their copies, there were no more to pass around. Since > academic > authors are usually responsible for their own indexes, the publisher > would > not look after this. I tell all clients that what I charge is my > hourly rate > plus one copy of the book. I include the copy on the estimate / > contract / > letter of agreement. Then when I bill I add at the end of the invoice > (after > the monetary amount and before the Payable 30 days): "Also one copy of > [Title]". Now the only times that I do not receive a book is when the > client > forgets and I forget to follow up. And that happens relatively rarely. > Because I am not very good at running after people, I found that this > "runnning around beforehand" saved me quite a bit of angst. Makes perfect sense now! Thanks. I'm still working without written estimates or contracts or letters of agreement. Hmmm, maybe I'll start a new thread on *that* subject. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:15:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement All my business comes to me over the phone. When approached about a job, I ask some questions (how long, what topic, when due, etc), ask for a few sample pages (usually, though not always, especially with known clients), and then send e-mail or make a phone call to quote a price. Then I do the index. Then I get paid. Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables, and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/ letter/contract for each book? Thanks for your thoughts, Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:36:33 -0500 Reply-To: sdhdis@mail2.theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Fw: WARNING: Virus > > >FYI > > > >Subject: IMPORTANT !!!! > > > >WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOT > >open it! > >It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letter out to > as >many people you can.......this is a new virus and not many people > know >about it! > > > >This information was received this morning from IBM, please share it > >with anyone that might access the Internet. > > > >Also, > >If anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! please delete >it > WITHOUT reading it!! This is a warning for all Internet users - > >there is a dangerous virus propagating across the Internet through an > >e-mail message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!". > > > >DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!! > >This message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you are > >interested in a penpal, but by the time you read this letter, it is > >too > >late. The trojan horse" virus will have already infected the boot > >sector > >of your hard drive, destroying all of the data present. It is a > >self-replicating virus, and once the message is read, it will > >AUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address is > present >in > >YOUR mailbox! > >This virus will DESTROY your hard drive, and holds the potential to > >DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your in box, and > >who's > >mail is in their in box and so on. If this virus keeps getting > >passed, > >it has the potential to do a great deal of DAMAGE to computer > networks > > >worldwide!!!! > >Please, delete the message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!" as soon as > you >see it! And pass this message along to all of your friends, > relatives >and the other readers of the newsgroups and mailing lists > which you >are > >on so that they are not hurt by this dangerous virus!!!! > > >Please pass this along to everyone you know so this can be stopped. > >PASS THIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS!!! WARNING !!! > >There is a new virus going arround in the last couple of days!!! > >DO NOT open or even look at any mail that you get that says: > "Returned > > >or Unable to Deliver" This virus will attach itself to your computer > >components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail items > >that says this. AOL has said this is a very danderous virus, and > there > > >is NO remedy for it at this time, Please Be Careful, And forward to > >all your on-line friends A.S.A.P. > > > >Forward this A.S.A.P. to every single person you know!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:41:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sara Miller-Hively Subject: Re: Fw: WARNING: Virus In-Reply-To: <199709111838.OAA13683@mailbox.syr.edu> This virus warning is a hoax - please don't propagate it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:47:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "C. M. Jacobs" Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement Although I may occasionally take on work arranged over the phone, I find it safest to specify deliverables (using a specifications form), expected date of receipt of material from publisher, expected due date and hourly rate/estimate in writing. If meeting to get contract signature(s) seems awkward and unnecessary, I will just set out the terms in a letter. I think that using a contract form helps your credibility, especially with individuals who are not used to working with freelancers. Once I have established a working relationship with a client however, I don't bother to put everything in writing. I have never had trouble getting paid (luckily), but I have had differences of opinion over the deliverables. Putting things in writing at the beginning ensures that the issues are discussed, and that you have a leg to stand on if the client gets material to you late, changes things in mid-stream... Christine **************************************************************************** Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Documentation and Library Systems Program (514) 457-6610, loc 470 John Abbott College Fax: (514) 457-4730 Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:11:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal" Subject: Re: Marketing What I'm wondering is--as a new graduate of some indexing course such as that offered by the USDA (which I'm not, not yet, but I hope to be some time next year), how does one go about marketing oneself for that very first index? I mean, what would you put on a resume, considering your past experience (prior to taking the indexing course) had nothing to do with indexing? I don't think any prospective employers really want to hear about all the miscellaneous odd (and I do mean odd) jobs I've had over the years, but an entire resume consisting merely of my college degree and the fact that I took the USDA course seems a bit skimpy, too. How do you go about marketing yourself when the only thing you have going for you, indexing-wise, is that one course? I'd like to know now, so if there are other things I should be doing besides just taking the course, I can set about doing those things--or trying to. I too would love to have a mentor, but as I am a military spouse who's always moving to new locations (and is stuck in a real stinker of a one this time--the only publishers are an hour and a half away and they are all fundamentalist Christian pamphleteers who require you to give a "testimonial" before they will even consider you for a position mopping the floors) I don't think I am going to be so lucky as to be able to work with an experienced indexer face-to-face. I have had nothing but good advice, lots of help, and an excellent rapport with both USDA instructors (due to a little administrative mix-up, and to a little mix-up of my own) with which I have ben in contact, and I will certainly be questioning them along these lines as I get closer to finishing the course (if I pass, that is!), but as this thread seemed to be going on right now, I thought I'd jump in, too. Maria McNeal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:17:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position Roberta: Where do you work? Suellen On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:58:29 -0700 Roberta Horowitz writes: >I think this is in response to my message about the cost of mailing >journals >could be a factor for not using outside indexers. For clarification, >I was >referring to online databases that can be indexing any where from 500 >to >6000 plus titles (from many publishers) and in these case the journals >are >received in house, processed to create the bibliographic records, then >index >etc. This type of production flow would be very different than a >journal >publisher creating an index for a particular title or creating the end >of >the year index that occurs in the final issue of the year. > >My normal work load is between 30 and 50 journals a week and those >boxes >are heavy. > >As with any work situation there are a lot of variables that are not >always >obvious which contribute to management decisions. > >Roberta Horowitz >rhorowitz@acm.org > > >At 11:15 PM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >>HI all, >> When I index journals, the publishers send me a copy of the >journals as >>they are published. It's like having a subscription. The last few >for each >>year come early as folios so that the final issue can have the >complete >>index. I don't think its all that expensive for them. After all , >they send >> out thousands to the other 'subscribers'. >> >>It must be considerations other than postage that determines their >need for >>an in house indexer. >> Sharon >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:34:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: marketing At 12:52 PM 9/11/97 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote: >One good way to get in is with book packagers rather than directly to >publishers. Book packagers take over the production of the book and hire >their own freelancers (editors, indexers, etc.) and usually don't fuss too >much about fees because they just bill the publishing company for the jobs. >I'm not sure how to find them, though. Anyone have ideas? Probably they're >in the Yellow Pages, too. Rachel, I believe a lot of book packagers are listed in LMP as well...probably under some category like, "Editorial Services" or "Book Production Services." I work with several and have been very satisfied overall, but I believe it's a bit risky to jump right into this market. These companies are not directly responsible for selling books, and therefore you can wait a long time to get paid...frequently they have to get their money before you get yours. I think some people on the list have had poor experiences, though I have not. It would pay to check out a packager rather carefully before getting seriously involved with an expensive job. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:35:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement At 02:15 PM 9/11/97 -0400, Ann Norcross wrote: >Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a >contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone >else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables, >and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about >clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/ >letter/contract for each book? Only a few of my clients send me contracts to be signed. Most don't bother, but =I= bother...I always send a friendly letter confirming all the details we've arranged over the phone. Price, delivery date of proof to me and index to them, and so on. This is one step removed from a "real" contract, in that you don't have a signature from the recipient, but if you should ever have to go to court to collect your money, it is 1000% better than having nothing but telephone notes. Creating a paper trail for each job is a top priority with me, and not just because of some possible bad experience down the line. I tend to forget the details myself if I don't write them down, and some jobs drag on forever. If I've got a file folder with copies of letters and phone notes, I can tell where I am at all times. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:38:00 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: marketing Yes, I got a job from being in the Indexer Locator. Suellen On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:59:08 -0400 Susan Wilkerson writes: >Hi everyone :-), > >I am a beginning indexer as well. I am just starting to market myself. >How do >you know which companies use free-lance indexers to be able to even >call >them? You mentioned you only called 12 and got a job. How did you >choose >them? I am interested in history, genealogy, antiques, computers, >printing, >typesetting but will tackle any subject that doesn't require you to >have a >thorough knowledge of it. Did you just go to the Literary Market Place >subject section and just start dialing or is there a more sure way of >telling >who uses free-lance indexers. > >I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one >response >said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use >free-lance >indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the >ASI's >directory? > >Thanks >Susan >bookindexr > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:01:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: marketing In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970911193457.009cd938@slonet.org> Sonsie wrote: >These companies are not directly responsible for selling books, and >therefore you can wait a long time to get paid...frequently they have to get >their money before you get yours. This is quite true. The one I work for paid anywhere from 4 to 12(!) weeks after delivery of the index. Another one I worked for as a copyeditor, though, paid upon delivery. So it really varies widely. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:07:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Marketing At 01:11 PM 9/11/97 -0600, Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal wrote: >What I'm wondering is--as a new graduate of some indexing course such as >that offered by the USDA (which I'm not, not yet, but I hope to be some >time next year), how does one go about marketing oneself for that very >first index? I mean, what would you put on a resume, considering your >past experience (prior to taking the indexing course) had nothing to do >with indexing? Having taken the USDA indexing course is an excellent qualification, and joining ASI (and stating that you are a member) gives you a certain professional aura even if you're not terribly experienced yet. To live up to that aura, and to provide some indexes to cite in your resume, you're going to have to hustle up some work, though--probably of the nonpaying variety, but a prospective employer need not know what is done gratis and what is paid employment. One of the first jobs I had was indexing five years' worth of issues of the journal for an obscure horticultural society I used to belong to. I got paid nothing, I learned an enormous amount, and it looked mighty spiffy on my resume. Create an index for an otherwise-excellent nonfiction book you've read (or are willing to read) that is lacking this essential tool. This does double duty: you can put it on your resume, and you might even want to write to the publisher offering to index the next edition. Offer to work with your local newspaper to produce an index of last year's back issues. Do the same for the newsletter of a group you belong to. Find any other way you can think of to produce real work samples that can be shown to prospective employers or listed on your resume. And, if you have education, experience, or skills in some particular subject area (even if you've never indexed a book in that field), this is also worth putting on your resume. Many publishers prefer to work with indexers who already know the literature or have experience in a specific field...even if they are relatively inexperienced as indexers. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:51:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blythe Woolston Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume Sonsie wrote: <> How do you indicate that such indexes are unpublished? I am working on several practice/sample indexes right now. If I post them on a web page or send them as hard copy samples, I will be able to label them clearly as what they are--my own unpublished work. I want to be very honest with prospective clients, but a title followed by "unplublished" doesn't seem at all convincing. My USDA instructor emphasized the point that it is difficult to evaluate the quality of an index without the document to provide context. I guess my real question is this. . . What do you think a prospective client is looking for when they look at a sample index--or a resume for that matter? Thank you. Blythe Woolston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:55:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: VW Miscellany back issues 11 September 1997 Back issues of the _Virginia Woolf Miscellany_ should be available from J.J. Wilson, English Dept., Sonoma State University, Rohnert Park, CA 94928, phone number (707) 664-2140 or (707) 664-2882. -- Best wishes, Laura Moss Gottlieb Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer 212 Highland Avenue Madison, Wisconsin 53705 (608) 233-4599 lauragottlieb@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:42:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2; Can't you "redirect" LPT1 > LPT2 somehow? Or use the command: MODE LPT1=LPT2? In other words, Cindex sends output thinking that it is going to its normal LPT1, but the system really send it to LPT2. THAT WAS MY ORIGINAL NOTE. I went to Peter Norton's immense DOS book to see whether not I was talking thru my hat. I was. MODE may only be used to redirect a parallel port output to a serial port, as in MODE LPT1=COM2. [I have done this when using a serial printer.] Norton also mentions the method hinted at above. Typing DIR of course displays the directory on the screen; typing DIR > LPT1 will *PRINT* the directory on LPT1. Perhaps there is some transmogrification of these commands that will work for you. I'm not really a DOS expert. Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:24:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: apprentice In-Reply-To: <199709110405.XAA26481@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Dear Carol Roberts: > >You mentioned in your recent post that you had the aid of a mentor. How >did you find such a person? How did you present yourself to them to show >that having an apprentice would be of benefit to them? > >Kevin A. Broccoli If memory serves, I simply asked the good folks on Index-L if anyone would be willing. I wasn't an apprentice in the sense that my mentor trained me. It worked out great, partly because I *wasn't* looking for someone to train me, just to answer some questions, take a look at my work and my resume, help me get my foot in the door. It was an informal arrangement, and I think she did it more as a sort of professional courtesy than because she expected to benefit from it (at least in a tangible way). Naively I think, it never even occurred to me to make a case that I would somehow be benefiting her. I think it was something of a fluke that I connected with the right person. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that method newbies (although I've seen it done on this list many times). I would recommend that people try to meet a few indexers (at chapter meetings or by hand selecting indexers from Index-L, rather than sending out a request to any and all, like I did), so you can know more about the person before you approach her or him. I recently "graduated" my first apprentice myself. She had known me for a year before she even approached me about it. She was also a lot more prepared and less naive than I was; she showed me all kinds of samples. I then checked with her indexing instructor to see what he could tell me about her skills. Then we sat down together and talked about just what she would need/want from me, what kind of time I could commit to, what kind of financial arrangement we would have, etc.--then I wrote up a contract. It appears to have worked out splendidly for both of us. I wasn't able to take the time to train her (which she didn't need), but I *was* able to help her get her client base started. I might as well say this, before I start getting letters and phone calls: I'm not available to take on another apprentice just now. Not until my husband and I figure out whether he'll have a job next year--or whether he'll be my next apprentice. Anyway, I hope those two "stories" help. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:24:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: bidding on job In-Reply-To: <199709110405.XAA26481@mixcom.mixcom.com> When it's a straightforward back-of-the-book index, usually the client already has my background info, so I simply bid. If my bid is higher than my base rate, it's because the description of the book includes details that will take more time (e.g., smaller type size, author wants nonsubstantive as well as substantive endnotes indexed), and I say so. Sometimes, a client sends me a sample chapter, and I'm able to make a quick assessment of number of indexables per page. Things are a bit different when I'm bidding on a more complicated or squishy job (one that's likely to change during the process), such as a newspaper. Then I include with the bid a report on how long the sample took me to do, a proposal for how to handle anything unusual, and a sample (a preliminary index of one issue of the newspaper, for example). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:13:06 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: Free BEAT English Thesaurus 3.1.2.p available Hi I have just received the latest copy of BEAT, a freeware thesaurus for DOS with English online help. Download from AusSI's site: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/download/Beat312p.zip It is about 104KB zipped. Tell me what you think of it. I might do a review of it in the AusSI Newsletter. Dwight ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:20:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume At 04:51 PM 9/11/97 -0400, Blythe Woolston wrote: >How do you indicate that such indexes are unpublished? I am working on >several practice/sample indexes right now. If I post them on a web page or >send them as hard copy samples, I will be able to label them clearly as what >they are--my own unpublished work. I want to be very honest with >prospective clients, but a title followed by "unplublished" doesn't seem at >all convincing. Well, I was lucky...my first few samples of this type WERE published; I just didn't get paid for them. So I never confronted the ticklish problem of whether or not to say some or all of the indexes I listed were unpublished. I think you're right--that for the sake of honesty you must indicate that they haven't been published if they haven't been. There must be some good wording for this; does "unpublished" really sound THAT bad? This is another reason I'd scare up a real--if unpaid--assignment or two so that you can use those comfortably. Another suggestion is to work directly with an author, since authors traditionally are responsible for indexing their own books. Frequently they turn this duty over to the publisher, who then hires a professional indexer, but many authors insist on doing it themselves (usually to save the money) and end up with a real mess on their hands...or not enough time to complete the work. If you live reasonably near a university campus, there are bound to be professors who are writing books and getting them published...and in need of indexing help. They will pay you a pittance, but you will end up with a published index worthy of your resume. >My USDA instructor emphasized the point that it is difficult to evaluate the >quality of an index without the document to provide context. I guess my >real question is this. . . >What do you think a prospective client is looking for when they look at a >sample index--or a resume for that matter? Even now, when I have to edit my resume to provide only a sample of the numerous indexes I've created, it would be difficult to evaluate my work based simply on that list. Unless it's the publisher who published one of those books, or someone willing to locate one of them and study it, the quality is an unknown factor. I think one thing that helps is "known quantities" in terms of who you've worked for. If you've done some work for a well-known publisher, or indexed a book that people might be familiar with, it helps. If you're looking for work in periodicals and have several periodical indexes on your list, that helps. As a last resort, the editor who is thinking of hiring you can (and very well may) call a few of the publishers on your list asking about your work. I know what =I= would look for in a sample index, but since I'm an indexer by trade, I'm probably a lot more demanding than a production editor who has many other responsibilities and is usually dealing with an index at the very last minute. Even if you don't have the original document to scan, a good sample can tell you some important things. First and maybe foremost, NO MISSPELLINGS! And no other obvious errors of usage, punctuation, etc. Page numbers checked carefully for obvious errors (61-61, or other clear typos) No long strings of undifferentiated locators (i.e., plenty of subheadings where needed, with no more than, say, five page numbers or ranges per entry) A clear attempt at content analysis (not just a listing of names and terms, but an obvious framework of concepts that are in the text but not necessarily a vocabulary term or proper name) Reasonable use of "see" and "see also" references to guide the reader to the needed material. Be careful with "see also," so that you don't have what amounts to repetitious entries under several similar terms. Finally, if you're providing samples from your own files and not photocopied from the printed index, make sure your copies are clean, crisp, neatly typeset, and in a type size large enough to read easily (you shouldn't use the same 8-point type on 9 point leading that the publisher may be forced to print in to save space). Make them look absolutely professional. If you can do this, you'll have no trouble getting work...though it may take a few months to find that first job. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:28:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: bidding on job If the topic of bidding on indexing jobs interests you, I'm hoping to do a workshop on the subject at the ASI Conference next May in Seattle. I've got my proposal in, and am hoping it'll be selected. Be on the lookout for it when registration materials come out next Spring. To add to Carol's list of enclosures, I also include my CV -- resume, sample books indexed, etc. -- so the person is completely aware of my qualifications. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:32:11 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Marketing One thing I marvel about in indexing is how NO experience, however trivial, is ever wasted. You may not know enough to be able to copyedit a book on the subject, but if you are familiar with it from an 'odd' job, you may well be able to index on it. I am not talking about an ingrowing-toenail operation enabling you to index medical textbooks, but about indexing books for the general public where that odd job means that you know more about the subject than I do. Best not offer whatever-it-is as an Expertise, though - though you might mention the broad subject in a list. I once came badly unstuck with a book about computers (my listed interest are arts/humanities). The level was way above my head and it remains the only book I have ever sent back. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:32:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: packagers Although I'm swamped trying to get an index done, I've finally caught up on the last week or two of email, and I'd like to add my knowledge of packagers. For the most part, I've had very, very good experience with packagers paying me on time, which means within 30-35 days. I've worked for five different packagers that I can bring to mind right now, and four out of the five had excellent track records. The fifth, for whom I only worked once, finally paid me after three months of constant phone calls and letters. That was very difficult, to say the least. But the others paid quickly, some within two to three weeks of me sending the invoice. So, my advice is, don't write off the packagers. Now, the thing you have to watch out for in my experience is how much they'll pay. Some consistently offer low bids to the publishers, and that translates to low rates. Some are more realistic, so rates are decent, and some value their freelancers a great deal and pay pretty well. But, they are worth a try. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:59:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: marketing I'm sure there will be those who disagree with me, but in regard to your question about getting jobs through ASI listing, I have to say that, early in my career in indexing (25 years ago), I belonged to ASI for some years and was listed. I never got a single contact through the listing. Then I dropped out of ASI for a number of years and have recently rejoined. I haven't bothered to submit my name to the Register. Understand, I'm not knocking ASI as our professional association, just reporting my results from being listed. To me, the primary way I have gotten jobs over the years has been through word-of-mouth from one editor to another. I've found that, at least in geographic areas, editors from different presses tend to know each other, and when you've done good work for one, they will recommend you to someone else. I realize this begs the question of how you first build that trust - but I'm really only responding to your question about the Register. Charles Anderson Seattle, WA. Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:59:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: Cindex and LPT2; Yes, my first thought too was the MODE command, but as you point out, it is for directing output from a parallel to a serial port. Oddly enough, in an early DOS book (around v. 1.0), one paragaph states that MODE can direct output to "a second parallel port." Thanks anyway for the suggestion. Charles Anderson Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:18:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: copyediting more fun? In-Reply-To: <199709110454.XAA04124@SWBELL.net> At 12:49 AM 9/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >I would like to put my vote in on this subject. I vote for indexing as >infinitely more fun. I copyedit every once and a while, when broke or when >offered a terrific job. Other than that, my business (which at the start was >about 70% copyediting, 30% indexing, 0% proofreading) is presently 90% >indexing. And that is by choice. >Leslie >Frank Words Indexing and Editing I think *both* can be "more fun" (which is what I meant to communicate in the first place...). I know myself -- and doing only one thing all the time would bore me silly. After doing, say, a dozen indexes in a row, a couple of editing or writing assignments is very welcome... and vice versa, of course. Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@swbell.net smith_editorial@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:37:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement In a message dated 97-09-11 14:18:18 EDT, you write: << Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables, and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/ letter/contract for each book? >> With a new client, I always get something in writing - either a contract (a personalized version of the ASI sample contract) or a letter of agreement outlining the terms, fee, etc. Sometimes the agreement is nothing more than my bid letter, which the client verbally accepts. I often use the format checklist from the ASI sample contract even if I don't use the contract itself, which contains a signature line, index specs, and fee. I don't know if the latter would hold up in court, but at least if gives me something in writing if I ever get in a dispute with the client. Sometimes the letter/contract is initiated by the client, which is also fine with me. For long-term clients I usually skip the written agreements unless their expectations (or my rates) change. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service Bellevue, WA. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:04:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe, but it doesn't need to be that way. In a message dated 97-09-10 17:19:08 EDT, you write: The University for which I work full time has different overhead rates for classified staff, faculty & professional staff, and hourly. (The varying rates reflect different pension contributions, health benefits, etc.) We assume that the actual 'cost' of a new employee is roughly 30 percent more than the salary. As a freelancer in a state with no state income tax (they get us with 8.6% sales tax instead!) I would have to charge about 40% more than my state salary to make an equivalent hourly rate. If I were paying state income tax, the differential would have to be higher. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service Bellevue, Wa. << Recently, one of you suggested that indexers should be charging about 1.3 or 1.5 as much as normal employees earn (or cost?) in order to cover our own costs for insurance and so on. Perhaps that person will come back and refresh our collective memory. I think the next step would be a rates survey, and a salary survey, so we can know how much cheaper we come. >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:16:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Copyediting-L >Could someone please tell me how to get in touch with Copyedit-L >(or whatever it's called)? Christine: It's copyediting-l If you need to speak to a person, that would be Bill Blinn, one of the listowners. His e-mail address is bblinn@sprynet.com If you want to subscribe, here's some information lifted from the welcome message: The mailing list server is known as "listproc", and any administrative request must be sent to the server at this address: listproc@cornell.edu All commands must be sent to . Because ListProc is a computer program, you must follow the command format *exactly*. Type the command on the first line in the body of your message. Don't indent the command, or add any extra text or extra spaces. To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE COPYEDITING-L Your Name To unsubscribe: UNSUBSCRIBE COPYEDITING-L To stop your mail temporarily (mail will not be stored): SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL POSTPONE To un-POSTPONE your mail: SET COPYEDITING-L (choose one of the mail options: MAIL ACK, MAIL NOACK, MAIL DIGEST) To receive individual messages, including your own posts: SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL ACK To receive individual messages, except your own posts: SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL NOACK To receive several messages as one larger message (default setting): SET COPYEDITING-L MAIL DIGEST To check your subscription settings: QUERY COPYEDITING-L To get the index of archived files: INDEX COPYEDITING-L To get a specific archived file (e.g., digest1531--NO SPACE between "digest" and the number): GET COPYEDITING-L digest Hope this helps. Karen Lane klane@digital.net http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~kl08739/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:44:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: marketing In a message dated 97-09-11 11:14:29 EDT, you write: << I sent out about 100 letters and only got one response. That one response said they would keep my letter on file but they usually didn't use free-lance indexers. Also has anyone ever got a job from posting they name in the ASI's directory? >> I've done only one or two mass mailings since I started freelancing, and got one or two jobs with each one; par for the course. And yes, I have received inquiries and jobs as referrals from ASI; I have no idea if publishers saw the printed Index Locator or were referred by ASI headquarters from my inclusion in the database. But the listing has definitely paid for itself each year. One other marketing mechanism that nobody has mentioned: contacts made at professional meetings. I have gotten jobs from (1) contacts made at the ASI annual meeting; (2) staffing an exhibit booth at a (non-indexing) professional meeting; (3) schmoozing with a secretary whose boss was writing a book; (4) word of mouth referrals from other indexers. Personal referrals cost nothing (other than reciprocating now and then) and are probably the most effective form of marketing. Carolyn Weaver Weaver Indexing Service Bellevue, WA. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:22:39 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re Copyediting-L Thanks for all the information about Copyediting-L, which I have passed on to the friend who wants to join it. He is a copyeditor, not an indexer, and was beginning to envy all the goodies I have been getting from Index-L! Christine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:17:21 SAST-2 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Davies, Tessa, Ms" Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume Thanks Sonsie - as a beginner indexer and new to the listserv I found your thoughts really interesting and constructive. Tessa > Well, I was lucky...my first few samples of this type WERE published; I just > didn't get paid for them. So I never confronted the ticklish problem of > whether or not to say some or all of the indexes I listed were unpublished. > I think you're right--that for the sake of honesty you must indicate that > they haven't been published if they haven't been. There must be some good > wording for this; does "unpublished" really sound THAT bad? This is another > reason I'd scare up a real--if unpaid--assignment or two so that you can use > those comfortably. > > Another suggestion is to work directly with an author, since authors > traditionally are responsible for indexing their own books. Frequently they > turn this duty over to the publisher, who then hires a professional indexer, > but many authors insist on doing it themselves (usually to save the money) > and end up with a real mess on their hands...or not enough time to complete > the work. If you live reasonably near a university campus, there are bound > to be professors who are writing books and getting them published...and in > need of indexing help. They will pay you a pittance, but you will end up > with a published index worthy of your resume. > > Even now, when I have to edit my resume to provide only a sample of the > numerous indexes I've created, it would be difficult to evaluate my work > based simply on that list. Unless it's the publisher who published one of > those books, or someone willing to locate one of them and study it, the > quality is an unknown factor. I think one thing that helps is "known > quantities" in terms of who you've worked for. If you've done some work for > a well-known publisher, or indexed a book that people might be familiar > with, it helps. If you're looking for work in periodicals and have several > periodical indexes on your list, that helps. As a last resort, the editor > who is thinking of hiring you can (and very well may) call a few of the > publishers on your list asking about your work. > > I know what =I= would look for in a sample index, but since I'm an indexer > by trade, I'm probably a lot more demanding than a production editor who has > many other responsibilities and is usually dealing with an index at the very > last minute. Even if you don't have the original document to scan, a good > sample can tell you some important things. > > First and maybe foremost, NO MISSPELLINGS! And no other > obvious errors of usage, punctuation, etc. > Page numbers checked carefully for obvious errors (61-61, or > other clear typos) > No long strings of undifferentiated locators (i.e., plenty of > subheadings where needed, with no more than, say, five > page numbers or ranges per entry) > A clear attempt at content analysis (not just a listing of names > and terms, but an obvious framework of concepts that are > in the text but not necessarily a vocabulary term or proper > name) > Reasonable use of "see" and "see also" references to guide the > reader to the needed material. Be careful with "see also," > so that you don't have what amounts to repetitious entries > under several similar terms. > Finally, if you're providing samples from your own files and not > photocopied from the printed index, make sure your copies > are clean, crisp, neatly typeset, and in a type size large > enough to read easily (you shouldn't use the same 8-point > type on 9 point leading that the publisher may be forced to > print in to save space). Make them look absolutely > professional. > > If you can do this, you'll have no trouble getting work...though it may take > a few months to find that first job. > > > > > > =Sonsie= > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:26:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat Room Hi, Sorry I gave ya'll the wrong Uin number this is the correct one. You can send message to me on the other one but this is the chat room number: 3240967 Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:19:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement In-Reply-To: <199709111941.MAA11359@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> I have to admit to leaping without a "parachute" unless the client sends me a contract. However, because of the type of clients I have, I usually get calls asking me if they can send me the proofs that day and if I can get the index back to them a few days later. So, there isn't any time for sending contracts back and forth or sample pages, etc. In fact, I'm working on an index right now where the client called me Tuesday, the pages arrived early Wednesday morning by express courier, and the index is due Sunday. (No, that's not a typo. I'm FTPing it to the client who is also working Sunday.) Fortunately, I haven't been burned. I schedule very flexibly. For example, one client asked me to block out an entire month for them in August of 96. I merrily scheduled in other projects, fortunately, and still haven't received the project from them over a year later. (They're still working on it.) A contract for that specific project probably would have held them to a cancellation or postponement fee, but they're an excellent client and I just work around their scheduling vagaries. I do have some contracts with clients that are general--not specific to one book. We negotiate rates on the fly according the specific project. With one client, my per page rate is set in their Accounts Payable department, so I always must invoice at that particular rate. However, if a project requires a rapid turnaround (like the 24-hour one I did for them last month) or requires unusual overhead, I have an agreement with the editor to adjust upward in my favor the indexable page count. Sonsie mentioned tracking details in a paper trail. I keep a project log for that purpose, simply a notebook in which I write the project number and devote the page(s) to all notes about the project, phonecons, etc. I also establish a lot of my paper trail via email messages which I retain in separate mailboxes for each client. Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:39:23 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Survey? Happiness with ISPs How do you all connect? This message from Carol jogs my memory a bit. It won't be long before good old Indiana University will be pulling the plug on yours truly (They're done with me, now that I'm no longer paying all that tuition!) so I'll be looking for an Internet Service Provider (ISP) _and_ an Internet Presence Provider (IPP) for hosting my web page. Of course, the second solution should take care of the first, I suppose. Can we do an informal survey? Are Index-L folks out there having a lot of frustration with their ISPs, or really happy to recommend some of them? Of course only the biggies will cover small towns in remote areas like this one. More importantly, perhaps, how did all of you shop for yours? And were there other questions you wish you had asked? I'm also interested in knowing about the difficulties experienced by those who need AOL etc. as "simple" ISPs and discover Internet compatibility difficulites e.g. delays sending mail to/ and collecting from the internet "outside." Best, and thank you in advance. David Carol Roberts wrote: > > > . . . If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account, can you > >deduct part or all of the monthly fees . . . > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:32:04 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patrick S. McNeal and Maria F. Scinto McNeal" Subject: Re: Marketing Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > > One thing I marvel about in indexing is how NO experience, however > trivial, is ever wasted. You may not know enough to be able to copyedit > a book on the subject, but if you are familiar with it from an 'odd' > job, you may well be able to index on it.... > Best not offer whatever-it-is as an Expertise, though - though you might > mention the broad subject in a list. Much as I hate to quote so much from a previous post--well, sorry, I felt it necessary in this case. Anyway, what would you suggest? Some type of list to be appended to the bottom of a resume headed--what? Interests? Other job skills? I have avoided doing this so far because I think it makes me look like sort of an idiot. I may have done everything from hot-walking race horses to teaching a class in gun safety to raising chickens, but the fact that I have done all these and more (too much more) has always seemed to me to scream "dilettante!", and so I avoid the mention of these various and sundries. Are you telling me that now, perhaps, I should? I guess the question is how to present one's experiences so they come across as being of value...and this is what I'm not quite sure how to do. (Still, it's an intriguing suggestion. And gives me a hint what types of books to try for--computer books would be right out for me, too.) Maria McNeal ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:53:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Fwd: References about indexing Hi all. Think you can help Theresa? Reply to her directly. TIA. elaine >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:17:27 -0700 >Reply-To: COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu >Sender: owner-COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Theresa Navarro >To: Copy Editors and Editing >Subject: References about indexing >X-To: "'COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu'" > >I'm a technical editor at a small software company and am new to this list. >I don't know if this subject has been covered before, so please forgive me >if it has. > >I'm looking for indexing references. Our writing group is preparing a >rather large web site. We want to create a master index that will include >several large documents, most of which are sys admin docs. I've been >looking for references about indexing both paper documents and large web >sites. I've taken several classes by Lori Lathrop through the STC which >were very good. However, I need more complete references. Does anyone have >any suggestions for books that I could purchase or web sites that I might >browse? > >Thanks for your guidance. > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:15:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Fwd: References about indexing In-Reply-To: The ASI web site has one page devoted to web sites that include indexes. It covers the kinds of indexes that sites create _and_ it includes examples of site indexes. This is exactly the kind of question this page was created to answer. To get there, from the home page (http://www.well.com/user/asi/) under the category "Resources for Indexers", click on "Indexing the Web". Or, go directly to that page (http://www.well.com/user/asi/webndx.htm). As always, if you visit that page and don't find what you're looking for, please let the webmaster know so we can make the page more useful. 8-) Hope that helps, Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- American Society of Indexers (ASI) http://www.well.com/user/asi/ ASI Web Committee: Kari Bero (webmaster) Nancy Cannon Seth Maislin (co-webmaster) Janet Perlman (ASI board representative) Marilyn Rowland Charlotte Skuster Neva Smith Jan Wright Pilar Wyman (chair) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Elaine R. Firestone wrote: > Hi all. Think you can help Theresa? Reply to her directly. TIA. > > elaine > > >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:17:27 -0700 > >Reply-To: COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu > >Sender: owner-COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu > >Precedence: bulk > >From: Theresa Navarro > >To: Copy Editors and Editing > >Subject: References about indexing > >X-To: "'COPYEDITING-L@cornell.edu'" > > > >I'm a technical editor at a small software company and am new to this list. > >I don't know if this subject has been covered before, so please forgive me > >if it has. > > > >I'm looking for indexing references. Our writing group is preparing a > >rather large web site. We want to create a master index that will include > >several large documents, most of which are sys admin docs. I've been > >looking for references about indexing both paper documents and large web > >sites. I've taken several classes by Lori Lathrop through the STC which > >were very good. However, I need more complete references. Does anyone have > >any suggestions for books that I could purchase or web sites that I might > >browse? > > > >Thanks for your guidance. > > > > > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS > elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov > elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:23:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: marketing & unpublished samples In-Reply-To: <199709120400.XAA10472@mixcom.mixcom.com> Linda, I've been freelance indexing full-time for four years, have always had plenty of work, sometimes more than I can handle--and I've never made a single cold call. Now some indexers think the cold calls are absolutely necessary, but I've found the letters (with resume and, when you're a beginner, samples) and lots of networking to be sufficient. By the way, I don't follow up on the letters with a call (so I don't say in the letter that I will). This may not be the most efficient method of marketing oneself, but it *is* the method I'm at least capable of. I have nothing against the *idea* of cold calling (or follow-up calls), mind you. It's just that I personally can't bring myself to do it. In fact, I've given a workshop to my ASI chapter called "Marketing for the Shy: Alternatives to Cold Calling." So I would recommend you go ahead and polish up a nice letter, resume, business card, samples--but be sure to have some indexers or nitpicky friends look them over first to make sure they're very professional. Make a list of subjects you'd like to index (subjects you studied in school, hobbies, just stuff you've read up on--whatever), and send letters out to 25-50 publishers who publish those subjects. In addition, rev up your networking, making heavy use of your business card. Give 'em out like candy. To answer your question about life before indexing: I was an in-house (all-around) editor and a freelance copy editor. Before that I was a grad student in philosophy. I have done a bit of proofreading as well; my recollection is that the pay was pathetic. I hope that helps. Regarding the question someone raised about unpublished indexing samples, the prospective client can already tell by your resume that you're a beginning indexer. So adding "unpublished" after the titles you list isn't going to shock or disgust them. I would simply do the following sort of thing: Indexing Experience title, by author (publisher or organization, year) title, by author (unpublished index; publisher or organization, year) title, by author (unpublished index; publisher or organization, year) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:23:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement In-Reply-To: <199709120400.XAA10472@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Only once have I sent a written letter of agreement, or signed a >contract before doing the work. Am I playing with fire? Does everyone >else obtain some sort of written agreement as to price, deliverables, >and due date *before* starting to work on an index? And what about >clients for whom you do a lot of books? Do you send an estimate/ >letter/contract for each book? > When I was starting out, I asked two indexers (who'd each been indexing more than 10 yrs.) whether they used a contract. They each said no. When I asked them whether they'd ever been stiffed, only one of them had been--just once. So it seemed to me that the time it took to do the contract thing wasn't worth it. But, I do use a contract with authors (also with publishers who've had seriously slipped schedules before). Not because I think authors are dishonest or anything, but because I think they're less experienced with the whole indexing thing, so it's good to have all the terms spelled out. In those cases, I spell out all the terms that are important to me in a letter format. Then at the end, I say, "If you agree with these terms, please sign a copy of this letter and return it to me," by such and such a date, if the timing's critical (I like to have 'em back before I finish the index). I add a line for the date and author's signature. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:01:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe, but it doesn't need to be that way. In-Reply-To: <199709120312.UAA04048@mx2.u.washington.edu> Carolyn: forgot to mention, unless all on the list want to move out here, that we have a relatively high B and O tax on services, 1.5 percent of gross, at the state level although the first $16,000 or so of gross income is exempt. There is a city tax on gross too (think it is now 20% of the state tax) with a similar exemption, although everyone has to pay a business licence fee of $75.00. There are also numerous irritation taxes, including the use tax (sales tax on items purchased in other states upon which no Washington sales tax has been paid) and, the worst of all, the county property tax on things like computers with no depreciation so that an old computer not worth squat that one paid $2,000 for 10 years ago is still taxed at that (I have paid the equivalent of a third of the taxes I pay on my house for my computers and books, etc.). When I throw in my telephone, other home office expenses, medical, retirement, I usually need to make, at my current level of volume, twice what I would as an employee to make a profit. I think your 40% is way too low. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:06:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement In-Reply-To: <199709121333.GAA01030@mx2.u.washington.edu> Indexing and contracts: having learned the hard way, I always, without exception, use a contract which specifies all details, including formatting of the index. My contracts make clear that it is up to the author and/or publisher to specify any formatting or other publishing details out front. If changes come later that require formatting changes compared what is in my contract, my contract makes clear that additional charges will apply. It also makes clear that I fix my mistakes, if any, at my cost. My contract includes a binding estimate for basic work. What I charge changes only if the author or the publisher decides to play games. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:39:40 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Written estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement and such I agree with the importance of "getting it (and giving) in writing," Paul. No firm who has ever hesitated at signing my contract (I require that) has ever given me an adequate reason for refusing to sign. In the age of faxes it is rarely "too late." I understand that the current business etiquette of indexing might go against this, but you sure sleep better at night, "having it in writing." I think clients also respect you more when they see you in this light: a a professional doing business in a very business-like manner. Then it is easier to be chummy with clients, without it being misconstrued, too. David P. Buell wrote: > > Indexing and contracts: having learned the hard way, I always, without > exception, use a contract which specifies all details, including > formatting of the index. My contracts make clear that it is up to the > author and/or publisher to specify any formatting or other publishing > details out front. If changes come later that require formatting changes > compared what is in my contract, my contract makes clear that additional > charges will apply. It also makes clear that I fix my mistakes, if any, at > my cost. My contract includes a binding estimate for basic work. What > I charge changes only if the author or the publisher decides to play > games. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:41:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st job/resume In reply to the question about how to indicate that a sample index you're submitting is unpublished: When I do this, I include a "disclaimer" sentence in my cover/marketing letter that goes like this, more or less: "...Please note that because I'm fairly new to indexing, these are not published indexes. One was prepared for [fill in the blank: an outdoor guidebook, for example] that was published without one; the other [fill in the blank again]. They were prepared without length limits or style guidelines; of course, other index styles are possible depending on the client's needs." That last part is important, I think. I don't think admitting to being new has been a bad thing to do. I've sent out about two dozen marketing letters since March '97 which have included similar language; so far the results have been three jobs from one publisher; one job offer from another, which I didn't get because I was too expensive; and a couple of "we're impressed with your work and resume and will contact you when we have something for you" replies. Of course, once you've done a paid job, you can change the language to something like "...I am enclosing an index I prepared for a cookbook now in press." Good luck! Therese Shere ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:46:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: referrals through ASI I personally have not received any jobs through ASI, at least not directly. BUT, when I worked in-house, my chief copyeditor hired all indexers using the ASI directory. She certainly had some regulars whom she frequently hired, but she hit the ASI directory on a regular basis. And so I was very angry with myself that I wasn't on the ball and forgot to mail in my registry information last spring. I'm sure she was not the only chief copyeditor/editor-in-chief/etc. who does that kind of thing. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:49:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Written estimates, contracts, and letters of agreement and such In-Reply-To: <199709121640.JAA09726@mx5.u.washington.edu> David: they way I get them to sign is by providing a firm estimate as part of the contract. It changes only under very specific circumstances which are spelled out. Clients like that. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:18:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: referrals through ASI To add to the mix .......... I've gotten quite a few new clients from ASI listings in their directory and their marketing tool (you pay for that listing separately). Since the latter is indexed (of course!) by subject matter as well as by type of material indexed, those contacts are people who are interested in just what I do, and usually lead to a successful relationship. It is also important to attend conferences and workshops -- both ASI's national conference, and local chapter workshops and meetings, if they are anywhere near you. The exposure you get at those, the people you meet, may be a potential source of work, through networking. Never underestimate the value of networking -- it's a powerful business tool. Just meet as many people as you can in your field, and keep up those relationships. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JEVN@AOL.COM Subject: Question re Photos in book I have a question about indexing a coffee-table book (most of my experience is with more content-oriented books). This book has full-page photos, the captions to which are in the form of sidebars on facing text pages. Do I enter page numbers for both pages, ie. the page with the caption sidebar and the facing photo itself, or just one or the other? Anyone with experience or opinions on this? Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:08:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe Just to be fair, there are also expenses for in-house staff that freelancers may not have to deal with: commuting expenses (gas, auto costs, and time lost during the commute), child care, business clothing and dry cleaning. A lot of in-house people also keep up home offices at their own expense (it's sometimes just assumed that we can take work home if needed). I just don't want anyone to get the impression that all in-house folks are living lives of wealth and luxury! :) Erika Millen emillen@sams.mcp.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:24:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply If anyone has that impression, I would be happy to disavow them of that notion! Although if most publishing companies are like this one, we don't have to worry too much about the clothing/dry cleaning expenses, since our dress code is, essentially, "Wear clothes." :-) >>> Erika Millen 09/12/97 02:08pm >>> Just to be fair, there are also expenses for in-house staff that freelancers may not have to deal with: commuting expenses (gas, auto costs, and time lost during the commute), child care, business clothing and dry cleaning. A lot of in-house people also keep up home offices at their own expense (it's sometimes just assumed that we can take work home if needed). I just don't want anyone to get the impression that all in-house folks are living lives of wealth and luxury! :) Erika Millen emillen@sams.mcp.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:03:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe In a message dated 97-09-12 13:56:51 EDT, you write: << Just to be fair, there are also expenses for in-house staff that freelancers may not have to deal with: commuting expenses (gas, auto costs, and time lost during the commute), child care, business clothing and dry cleaning. >> You must not be following the comic strip "Cathy.":D Actually, my clothing and dry cleaning bills are about the only things that I don't worry about. I still have to pay for child care. I couldn't work consistently without my kid away. He does not sit quietly beside my desk or anywhere else, and he never has. It's true I don't have to commute, but I do have to take time out to go to the office supply store, the FEDEX box, the post office, etc. My supplies are not usually delivered, and if they are, I pay extra on top of the cost of the supplies. I've worked in publishing both in-house and as a freelancer. My expenses are far far higher as a freelancer. I had a home office then, but my needs are far greater as a freelancer. It's true that I have health insurance benefits through my husbands employer, and that is a relief. But, I have to provide disability insurance, life insurance, retirement plans, sick time, vacation time, fallen-through-contract time, etc. In addition, if I don't have enough of a cushion for the month, and payment is late, I have to paylate fees if I have to pay some bills late. That has happened, and no publisher has been willing to offset that. And I do need professional clothing for face-to-face contact with my clients. I don't need as extensive a wardrobe, but I do need some. Obviously, I have to charge more per hour to offset these costs. Yes, working in any capacity does cost money as well as earn it, but as freelancers we need to charge to cover costs that one does not even think about as an employee. Otherwise it wouldn't be financially worth while. Just read "Cathy" to see how she handles it. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:25:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: Question re Photos in book You wrote: > >I have a question about indexing a coffee-table book (most of my experience >is with more content-oriented books). >This book has full-page photos, the captions to which are in the form of >sidebars on facing text pages. Do I enter page numbers for both pages, ie. >the page with the caption sidebar and the facing photo itself, or just one or >the other? >Anyone with experience or opinions on this? >Thanks! > You need to ask the editor, stating the alternatives very clearly, and ask for his/her preference, or house style. However, in absence of any preference, my practice is this. Assume that pictures are on odd (recto) pages, and their captions are on the even facing pages. 1) devise a term that describes the photo, e.g. Eiffel Tower (Paris) 2) reference the photo to the page where the photo actually appears. (Do this even if the folio is suppressed on the page). Usually your page reference is italicized. Sometimes, instead of a page number, a figure number is used. Sometimes, both are used. Eiffel Tower, 99 (italic) or Eiffel Tower, fig. 9 or Eiffel Tower, 99 (italic); fig. 9 3) do not reference the photo to the page where the caption is located. HOWEVER - sometimes the caption has substantive information about the picture or about related topics. For example, a short biography of Gustave Eiffel might be given in the caption. In this case, treat the caption as text, and reference the page number where the caption is located. Eiffel, Gustave, 98 Let's say that the caption discusses the building of the Eiffel Tower, public reactions to it, etc. In this case, both the caption page and the illustration page might be referenced: Eiffel Tower, 98, 99 (italic) *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:46:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply In-Reply-To: <9709121824.AA20975@henson.cc.wwu.edu> I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more ass a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. If a job takes 20 hours, that is that. On the other hand, if you run out of work in the real job world they usually don't lay you off unless the problem is chronic; you continue to get paid. The business about a dress code requiring you to "wear clothes" reminds me of Microsoft. Saw same strange dress when I was a contractor there. One of the things I like about working at home is that I can wear my bathrobe, or nothing if it is hot enough (not often in Seattle). I also like the lack of a long trip to work. To work an 8 hour day on the east side of our large lake, in Redmond, for example, requires a 2.5 hr trip, back and forth, although Microsoft is only about 16 miles from where I live. When I decide whether or not I want to take on onsite job I take into account the time spent travelling, which I add to my work day when making comparisons. If the sums are not right I continue to work at home. Paul D. Buell PS: Note the new return address for me above. Not having worked for UW for a while I am reverting to my Western Washington University email which is at least permanent. So anyone feels the urge to direct poison email, direct it here (actually, I have never gotten any of that on this list...). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe On 9/12/97, Paul Buell writes: << I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more as a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. If a job takes 20 hours, that is that. On the other hand, if you run out of work in the real job world they usually don't lay you off unless the problem is chronic; you continue to get paid. >> Run out of work? Does that really happen?? I usually have 2-5 books in progress at any given time. I've seen some surveys that show average indexing charges per page (about $3-5 per page, I think?). Does anyone know if there's a survey of salaried staff? I'd love to know if I'm earning above/at/below average, but it's hard to compare a salary to per-page rates. I once calculated what I average per page, but it was a little depressing to see the results. Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:25:43 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Depressing , to see the results . . .(Friday grins) That's why we have depressing lawyers and depressing accountants, to look at the depressing news for us and break it to us. Of course, then their bills later depress us even more. But this explains why they are the way they are. God love 'em. David Erika Millen wrote: > Run out of work? Does that really happen?? I usually have 2-5 books in > progress at any given time. > I've seen some surveys that show average indexing charges per page (about $3-5 > per page, I think?). Does anyone know if there's a survey of salaried staff? > I'd love to know if I'm earning above/at/below average, but it's hard to compare > a salary to per-page rates. I once calculated what I average per page, but it > was a little depressing to see the results. > > Erika Millen > > On 9/12/97, Paul Buell writes: > > << I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more > as a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. If a > job takes 20 hours, that is that. On the other hand, if you run out of > work in the real job world they usually don't lay you off unless the > problem is chronic; you continue to get paid. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:29:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe At 03:28 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Erika wrote: >Run out of work? Does that really happen?? I usually have 2-5 books in >progress at any given time. Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other than busy-ness. -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:01:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply In a message dated 97-09-12 14:24:58 EDT, you write: << I just don't want anyone to get the impression that all in-house folks are living lives of wealth and luxury! :) >> I forgot, since I've worked in-house, I know that in-house folks are not living the lives of wealth and luxury! I've been in that state of poverty myself!:D Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:24:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe Lindsay, You wrote: << Are any of you earning a living solely from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? >> Emphatically YES. Although I am married to a professional, and we are a 2-income family, my indexing business earns me a living that I consider to be well into the "professional salary" range. I do not work solely to "supplement" the primary wage earner's salary. My earnings stand on their own 2 feet and could support me in the fashion to which I am accustomed. ;-) So "busyness" can translate into a good living. I work darned hard. And usually much more than a 40 hours week, but that is my choice. It is rewarding. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:44:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Comments, please: Hyperindex Greetings, I have Hyperindex and have worked with it on an experimental basis. I feel it is quite dependable. It was reviewed in the May-Aug. issue of Key Words. Thelda Bertram TBrtrm@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:42:46 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs In-Reply-To: <199709121339.GAA03370@pacific.net> David inquires: >Can we do an informal survey? Are Index-L folks out there having a lot >of frustration with their ISPs, or really happy to recommend some of >them? Of course only the biggies will cover small towns in remote areas >like this one. Actually, here in northern California, I had to give up a relative biggie (Working Assets Online) because they had no local dial in; AOL wouldn't work because they had no local dial in; and I'd have had to pay $6.00/hr. for 800 access to either of them. I called other biggies and it was the same thing. I had been told there was no local access but in fact there was--a network that benefits the local schools. I did find another statewide service that had a free 800 number but I decided to go with the local. I've since moved and am now on another local provider. I realize California is sometimes ahead of the curve on these matters but I wouldn't assume there is no local service. Neither of my locals were in the Yellow Pages yet, so they weren't easy to find. And, I've been really happy with the local as opposed to gargantuan service. When I left Working Assets Online they wouldn't forward my mail to me, not even for a fee. My current provider is constantly upgrading their connections. Also, when I call, it's like calling my local bank instead of Bank of America or Wells Fargo, which are okay, but there's nothing like actually recognizing the voice of the person who answers. For me, anyway. Of course, my local provider doesn't have the bells and whistles that AOL has, and there are some real benefits to those. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:51:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe In a message dated 97-09-12 17:40:23 EDT, you write: << So "busyness" can translate into a good living. I work darned hard. And usually much more than a 40 hours week, but that is my choice. It is rewarding. >> Most of those in the "professional salary range" who work for corporate America work much more than 40 hours a week also. They don't climb that ladder very high without offering quite a few more hours to their employers, so I think that Janet is climbing her own corporate ladder and doing very well with her success without sacrificing more time than those who climb for someone else. I work only part time by choice, but if I were to translate my part time to full time, I think I would be able to maintain a respectable standard of living on my income. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:02:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply In-Reply-To: <199709121949.MAA21853@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 12:46 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Paul wrote: >I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more >ass a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. Now just what type of "freelancing" are we talking about? Sorry, I couldn't resist!! ;-D Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:58:48 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Anderman Guenther Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe I've been following this thread but have been too busy to respond. Yes, absolutely it is possible to live on an indexer's income. As a single parent of 3 children, I am able to care for my children & myself comfortably. Like others my greatest struggle is guessing which books will slip & leave me either overloaded or with a gap in my schedule. My husband moved out 3 years ago making the statement "now you will have to get a real job" but contacts have allow my business to continue to grow so that I have been able to remain at home & be there when my children need me. This is a priority since I have a first-grader, 9th grader & 11th grader. The oldest has been fighting lyme disease for 4 years so I can't imagine having dealt with my responsibilities without the flexibility of freelancing (the ability to work odd hours & carry my work with me to doctor's offices, etc) . I hate cold calls & don't do them. My contacts have been through ASI, by recommendation from editors who have liked my work, & in early years by sending letters. The last time I mailed out letters was 3 years ago after my husband moved out. Of 20 letters sent based on info in Literary Market Place, I received work from 4 or 5 different publishers. Not sure why my success rate was so much higher than what has been quoted here, but I do want to affirm to those just getting started -- it does get easier. As I write that -- I do have one answer for the response, but it isn't one often discussed in business groups -- I consciously and intentionally had placed my family's care in God's hands. I firmly believe that He has cared for my family, provided me work and a career which grows in such surprising ways. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com Lindsay Gower wrote: > At 03:28 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Erika wrote: > >Run out of work? Does that really happen?? I usually have 2-5 > books in > >progress at any given time. > > Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of > business. > How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your > monthly > bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living > solely > from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are > you > indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's > salary? I'm > trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms > other > than busy-ness. > > -- LG > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Lindsay Gower | email: > lindsay@persistence.com > Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 > Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 > 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com > San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:45:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Re[2]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe -Reply In-Reply-To: <199709130041.RAA14718@mx3.u.washington.edu> Oops. I once wanted to identify myself as an historian and posted, for all to see that I was an analist whereas what I wanted to say was Annalist. Ah well, it is Friday. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:27:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume In a message dated 97-09-12 07:02:19 EDT, you write: I second most of Sonsie's comments, but beg to differ with the statement that "authors will pay you a pittance." They'll pay whatever reasonable fee you quote (unless they can find somebody to work for less). I have done quite a few indexes for authors - including repeat business for one prolific author who publishes a book about every three year. If the author were a personal friend I might offer a discount; but in general, my minimum rates are the same regardless of who's paying the bill. You may have to educate the author as to the characteristics of a good index (e.g., NOT indexing every cited author; NOT using 6 different terms for the same concept); but authors are usually delighted to find out that a professional indexer CAN give them the index to a 400 page book in two weeks in a format that will keep their publisher happy, and that accommodates all their pet likes and dislikes. I ALWAYS use a written contract when the author is the client and make sure that I have an exact billing address; but I've usually gotten paid within two weeks when the author was writing the check, and almost as fast when the payment had to come thru a university accounting department. And authors do recommend an indexer they've been happy with to their colleagues. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. << Another suggestion is to work directly with an author, since authors traditionally are responsible for indexing their own books. Frequently they turn this duty over to the publisher, who then hires a professional indexer, but many authors insist on doing it themselves (usually to save the money) and end up with a real mess on their hands...or not enough time to complete the work. If you live reasonably near a university campus, there are bound to be professors who are writing books and getting them published...and in need of indexing help. They will pay you a pittance, but you will end up with a published index worthy of your resume. >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:36:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Taxes You wrote: > I highly recommend hiring a Licensed Tax Preparer. I struggled through my > first year of estimated taxes etc. on my own, then found my "tax guy." He's a > one-person business like me (I read an article once that said to hire an tax > person with the same size business as yours), and came recommended. I pay him > about $100 a year, and he does everything except write the checks (well, I > keep track of expenses and income and give him a list), including answering > questions like that one over the phone for free. The money is very well worth > it. Thanks, Do Mi! Several other people have suggested that I hire a pro, as well. I plan to investigate that next year. For this year, and based on my current income vs. expenditures, plus my husband's withholding, the IRS suggests that I don't need to do anything until 4/15/98, since our total tax liability will be less than last year, and I will not hit the "penalty" percentage. (Yes, the IRS actually did call me back -- and they were very polite, helpful, and friendly. What a surprise!) But your suggestion and information have been tucked away in my "gonna need this soon" file! Thanks again! Kara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:27:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Marketing Maria McNeal wrote: > Anyway, what would you suggest? Some > type of list to be appended to the bottom of a resume headed--what? > Interests? Other job skills? How about including a few interesting areas in your cover letter, rather than on your resume? And tailor them to the specialty areas of the company. For a publisher with a really broad subject range, try including something about "a wide range of interests and experiences, from aaa to zzz", and list two or three of the most interesting/unusual (as long as they are something potentially useful.) If you use a computer to print your resume, you can also play with tailoring your resume in a similar manner: include those work experiences which might look particularly useful or helpful to that publisher. Mentioning (in your cover letter) titles you've liked which were published by your target company could also help indicate your interests. Kara M. Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:40:33 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: "Cheaper freelancers" or "You want me to do WHAT for $5.00?" (Not a Clinton joke.) Above, the title of an opinion piece I wrote about the jobs offered to Master of Library Science students by the Indianapolis Chamber of Commerce. What's worse, the university cooperates by agreeing to assist this employer in hiring students at this rate, and by distributing such ads free of charge on the internet, saving the employer the cost of advertising. What the student does is conduct research in university and public libraries, and then catalog that data in a relational database. They pay $5 an hour. The sole benefit offered: you don't have to pay for parking at your place of employment. At the same time, convenience stores here offer about $8.50 an hour and benefits, with free Cokes and donuts, I s'pose. I delicious irony. You could take me out and shoot me (behind the counter in that convenience store) before I'd work for that kind of money inth 2 degrees, in 1997. David > At 12:46 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Paul wrote: > >I forgot to mention that another reason why one has to charge much more > >ass a "freelancer" is that you are changing for actual work done. > > Now just what type of "freelancing" are we talking about? Sorry, I couldn't > resist!! ;-D > > Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:59:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe, but it doesn't need to be t In a message dated 97-09-12 14:09:36 EDT, you write: Paul is right, of course, assuming one gets over the $16,000 B&O tax threshold, which I never have as a moonlighter. (Actually, I would love to be grossing enought to have to be concerned about that!) My only quibble is re the city taxes; those are local and vary by community. In Bellevue (which is the yuppie haven across Lake Washington from Seattle, with the highest real estate prices in the state -- which I couldn't afford if we were buying today!) we're also exempt from city taxes if we're under the state B&O threshold. But given that it's possible to use the home office deduction and other business expenses to write off a lot of one's federal taxable income, I would still hold to a 40-50% differential in rate setting, particularly since a home-based worker has much lower job-related expenses for commuting, lunches out, business clothes, child care, etc. Earlier this year my wonderful (day job) administrative assistant decided not to return to work at the end of her maternity leave when she discovered that with a $32,000/yr job, she would net hamburger-flipping wages after paying child care for two kids. It just wasn't worth it to her. Carolyn << Carolyn: forgot to mention, unless all on the list want to move out here, that we have a relatively high B and O tax on services, 1.5 percent of gross, at the state level although the first $16,000 or so of gross income is exempt. There is a city tax on gross too (think it is now 20% of the state tax) with a similar exemption, although everyone has to pay a business licence fee of $75.00. There are also numerous irritation taxes, including the use tax (sales tax on items purchased in other states upon which no Washington sales tax has been paid) and, the worst of all, the county property tax on things like computers with no depreciation so that an old computer not worth squat that one paid $2,000 for 10 years ago is still taxed at that (I have paid the equivalent of a third of the taxes I pay on my house for my computers and books, etc.). When I throw in my telephone, other home office expenses, medical, retirement, I usually need to make, at my current level of volume, twice what I would as an employee to make a profit. I think your 40% is way too low. Paul D. Buell >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:05:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. In-Reply-To: <199709130409.VAA11025@mx2.u.washington.edu> Carolyn: except that the home office deduction is worth very little if you have a house purchased years ago since it is now based on the original, purchase price, plus any improvements. The base value for tax purposes of my house is perhaps 40% of the real value. And yes, one can write off lots of other things too, but if you do you have to list them for country property tax purposes and the country gets you. And there is no way to depreciate anything. I should mention that I work as a translator as well as indexer, a fact which probably inflates my costs. I must have spent $1000 last year on Japanese dictionaries alone (and didn't get that many dictionaries!). Another cost of doing business that no one has mentioned are agencies and possibly individuals who don't pay. I got caught in a bankruptcy last year that cost me $800.00 (I am sure this money is gone), robbing me of about 10 percent of my profits for that year (I also worked onsite). This year I have had a new experience, encountering for the first time a translation agency that victimizes translators and never pays, or only when sued and persistently so. I was only in for $212.00 but it could have been much more. Someone wrote me about an agency in $50,000 to the same people and another $25,000 and then $16,000. Urk, you can lose your shirt. Did I mention business insurance too. Because I have lots of computer equipment and occasionally tutor (requiring special coverage in my household as well as business insurance) this can be expensive. Another thing to bear in mind. If one is self-employed one is not covered by unemployment insurance. Your work goes down to nothing and that is where your are. The self-employed get no paid vacation or sick leave. If I want to take off or even get sick I have to be able to compensate for this. This means making more when I do work. So, even if you are doing only indexing, I still think your 50% or so is low, even less than a minimum. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs In-Reply-To: <199709130419.XAA11597@mixcom.mixcom.com> >> > . . . If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account, >>can you >> >deduct part or all of the monthly fees . . . I'll be darned. I don't think I ever posted that! Clipped from somebody else's and somehow mixed up with one of mine? Oh well. Anyway, I looked for a local provider, because I already knew I didn't want AOL or Compuserv. I pay around $21 a month for unlimited service, including a Web page. My local outfit is called Mix Communications, hence the "mixcom" in my address. I've been very happy with it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:07:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Question re Photos in book In-Reply-To: <199709130419.XAA11597@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I have a question about indexing a coffee-table book (most of my experience >is with more content-oriented books). >This book has full-page photos, the captions to which are in the form of >sidebars on facing text pages. Do I enter page numbers for both pages, ie. >the page with the caption sidebar and the facing photo itself, or just one or >the other? >Anyone with experience or opinions on this? >Thanks! When this has come up for me, I've indexed one or the other. I first ask the editor whether she or he has a preference. And I make sure to add a headnote that explains what I've done. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:07:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe In-Reply-To: <199709130419.XAA11597@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. >How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly >bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely >from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you >indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm >trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other >than busy-ness. > >-- LG Those are some pretty darn personal questions. So let me answer this way, when I say "plenty of busness" I mean I'm working full-time. Very rarely do I have gaps between assignments. And yes, I'm earning a living solely from indexing. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:47:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe, but it doesn't need to be t A freelancer's income is to some degree an illusion. Consider these two scenarios: I work for a corporation, make $50,000 per year in salary. I commute 10k miles per year. I work with computers, so I have one at home. I have it set up in a spare bedroom. My income (leaving taxes out, for the moment) is obvioulsy $50k per year. Now I work for myself. I drive about 10k miles per year meeting clients, going to the Office Max, attending ASI meetings, etc. I have the same computer equipment in the same spare bedroom. Now, these things are business expenses and deducted from my gross so that my income is substantially less than $50k per year. In both cases, I live exactly the same life with exactly the same amenities. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. At 10:05 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >Carolyn: except that the home office deduction is worth very little if you >have a house purchased years ago since it is now based on the original, >purchase price, plus any improvements. The base value for tax purposes of >my house is perhaps 40% of the real value. > Depends on where you live. Here in NC, I have two options: Calculate the total square footage of the house then calculate the percentage dedicated to office space. Calculate all costs of owning the house (mortgage, utilitites, etc) and deduct the percentage corresponding to my office space. Or, divide the number of rooms used for the office by the total number of rooms. If I use one room out of seven, my deduction is 1/7th, regardless of square footage. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:55:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe At 01:07 AM 9/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. >>How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly >>bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely >>from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you >>indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm >>trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other >>than busy-ness. >> Well, I retired from corporate life in '92 and in '96 exceeded what I had been making when I retired. I have the same house I had when I retired, trade cars every two years, and last year bought a $15k motorcycle. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:48:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: business questions Hi- Yesterday I had my first experience with SCORE-not very helpful. I drove about 3 hours round-trip, was supposed to have a 1-hour appointment. The man talked to me for 10 minutes and had absolutely no specific information. Is this typical? Please clarify a few things for me. 1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you legally *have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it were different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't understand. And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or what? 2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID number different than your social security number for this? 3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business accounts? What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know business bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything else that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments? 4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to cover computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance? Does the fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things? Do some of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it complicate things with FedEx or UPS? Also, what about insurance comparable to malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents of our index? Can they sue if they can't find something? :-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance? 5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do you do it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months? 6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this? 7. For volunteering you indexing services: At what point did you feel comfortable doing this? I am about halfway through USDA Basic Indexing and I surely don't feel comfortable with this idea yet (unless I had a mentor). 8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid when there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed? Some take half a page, some take a third... Thanks for your opinions. I know I need to talk to all these agents, bankers, etc., but it helps to know what might be expected. Chris Carr cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:14:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Prakash S. Capen" Subject: Amused aside: interesting wording Maybe I'd simply been too long at the computer, but I glanced through the recent virus warning message just to see what names they'd come up with this time. One phrase caught my eye and my imagination: "AOL has said this is a very danderous virus. . ." Hmm. A new computer term? A virus that sheds all over one's memory chips? Okay. Enough musing. Back to work. Prakash * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Prakash S. Capen Editing and Indexing Services prakash@moonstar.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:31:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: business questions What is SCORE? Suellen On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:48:31 -0400 Chris Carr writes: >Hi- > >Yesterday I had my first experience with SCORE-not very helpful. I >drove >about 3 hours round-trip, was supposed to have a 1-hour appointment. >The man >talked to me for 10 minutes and had absolutely no specific >information. Is >this typical? Please clarify a few things for me. > >1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you >legally >*have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it >were >different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't >understand. > And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or >what? > >2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID >number >different than your social security number for this? > >3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business >accounts? > What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know >business >bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything >else >that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments? > >4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to >cover >computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance? Does >the >fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things? >Do some >of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it >complicate >things with FedEx or UPS? Also, what about insurance comparable to >malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents >of our >index? Can they sue if they can't find something? >:-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance? > >5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do >you do >it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months? > >6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this? > >7. For volunteering you indexing services: At what point did you feel >comfortable doing this? I am about halfway through USDA Basic >Indexing and I >surely don't feel comfortable with this idea yet (unless I had a >mentor). > >8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid >when >there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed? >Some take >half a page, some take a third... > >Thanks for your opinions. I know I need to talk to all these agents, >bankers, etc., but it helps to know what might be expected. > >Chris Carr >cccjlc@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:47:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: SCORE At 11:31 AM 9/13/97 EDT, Suellen Kasoff wrote: >What is SCORE? Suellen Service Corps of Retired Executives, who act as unpaid consultants for those who wish to start small businesses. There are many handouts and other materials available as well from SCORE. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:20:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe, but it doesn't need to be t In-Reply-To: <199709131149.EAA16586@mx4.u.washington.edu> Dick: I am afriad it is not that simple. What about the benefits you get from your $50,000 a year job, pretty substantial one. My bet is that the actual value of your $50,000 a year salary is more like $70,000+. You are not comparing likes to likes. And no one has yet mentioned that the self-employed pay double the social security tax and you cannot write off everything. As I noted before, you home office deduction is very, very limited unless you just bought you house. Health insurance is only partially an expense and putting money away for the equivalent of an enemployment fun is not deductable either. I should conclude that those that think living entirely off of self-employment is nothing more than a spare bedroom and a computer have a rude shock coming. You need much more. How about those on the list making a full-time income from indexing. What percentage of their gross do the think should be expenses, if that is not too personal a question. Paul D. Buell On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > A freelancer's income is to some degree an illusion. > > Consider these two scenarios: > > I work for a corporation, make $50,000 per year in salary. I commute 10k > miles per year. I work with computers, so I have one at home. I have it > set up in a spare bedroom. My income (leaving taxes out, for the moment) > is obvioulsy $50k per year. > > Now I work for myself. I drive about 10k miles per year meeting clients, > going to the Office Max, attending ASI meetings, etc. I have the same > computer equipment in the same spare bedroom. Now, these things are > business expenses and deducted from my gross so that my income is > substantially less than $50k per year. > > In both cases, I live exactly the same life with exactly the same amenities. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. In-Reply-To: <199709131153.EAA20310@mx5.u.washington.edu> But your mortage payments are not the basis of the deduction but the purchase price of the house. My point is that since I purchased my house some years ago at a price that is a third of the current market that strictly limits what I can deduct. My deduction is absolutely peanuts compared to what office space goes for around here and if one is not careful you get audited. The home office deduction is not what it used to be. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:24:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: business questions In-Reply-To: <199709131349.GAA05870@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 09:48 AM 9/13/97 -0400, Chris wrote: >Hi- > >Yesterday I had my first experience with SCORE-not very helpful. I drove >about 3 hours round-trip, was supposed to have a 1-hour appointment. The man >talked to me for 10 minutes and had absolutely no specific information. Is >this typical? Please clarify a few things for me. Hi Chris, Oh what a bummer! I attended a daylong SCORE workshop when starting my business that was excellent. They had a wide range of speakers who spoke about many aspects of running a business. Plus, it was a good opportunity to network. I also strongly recommend attending a workshop on networking held by one of the networking gurus floating around the country. It's worth its weight in gold. If you can't attend any business workshops (it sounds like you're out in the boonies), there are a wide range of books about starting businesses, marketing, networking, etc. Books on consulting are also somewhat relevant to what we do. Bookstar has tons of books on business (I must have bought half of them), but if there's no good bookstore near you, there's always Amazon.com on the Web (a great source of books). Of course, please continue posting your questions to the list. ;-D > >1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you legally >*have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it were >different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't understand. > And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or what? Some areas, like my county, require that you get a Fictious Name (or a DBA "doing business as") certificate if your business name is in any way different from your own name. The major things I found personally helpful about it were that a) I was able to determine that no one else in my county (or the state of California) had the same business name; and 2) banks require a DBA for opening a business account. As you can see, all institutions seem to work with each other to ensure that you jump through the required hoops. > >2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID number >different than your social security number for this? From what I've read here on the list, the sales tax requirement seems to vary with ones location. Many places don't require it for services such as indexing. I'm not sure what credit card company requirements are for being able to accept them. I haven't needed to offer this. AFAIK, you can use your SSN as a tax ID number unless you have employees. > >3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business accounts? > What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know business >bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything else >that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments? While a personal bank account may be sufficient to handle a small business like indexing, the main purpose behind getting a business account is to avoid mixing personal and business funds. This is for tax and accounting purposes. Shop around for your bank! Mine only charges $5/mo, unlimited checking, no minimum balance for my business account. I don't know about your local phone company, but mine (Pac Bell), not only knows that small businesses use residential phone numbers, but supports it. The only real reason for getting a business phone number is that you get an entry in the Yellow Pages and, from what I've heard from other indexers, it wasn't worth the expense. With phone company voice mail, your business image over the phone shimmers quite nicely with a residential line. (Another potential phone company "bennie", possibly coming soon to your area, is that they are also becoming ISPs. Your Internet charges go on your phone bill instead of your credit cards where they can incur finance charges. Plus you're far more likely to get online on the first try since telecommunications *is* their business. Just to touch on another thread here.) > >4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to cover >computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance? When I called around about business liability insurance when starting my business, I kept hearing that you have to be in business for at least a year before a carrier will accept you. I hope I don't have this confused with "business interruption" insurance, because I was checking on that too at the time. The general consensus I've heard from other indexers that liability insurance is not necessary. >Does the >fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things? Do some >of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it complicate >things with FedEx or UPS? You may want to check with your homeowner's insurance about liability issues. I take Fedex/UPS deliveries at my Mailboxes, Etc. address. Beats waiting around at home or having the package left with your neighbors (especially by UPS). Another benefit of having your business address at one of the mailbox places is that you're not handing out your home address to the entire world on your business cards. Plus, it's a street address, whereas PO boxes *can* have fly-by-night connotations for small businesses and don't accept Fedex deliveries. Also, if you move your home business (close enough where you don't have to change your phone number), there aren't any printing costs associated with new stationery. (YMMV, given all the area code and zip code splits these days.) My MBE box is worth every penny. (No, I don't work for them, though my daughter did. ;-D) Express couriers, who I receive quite a few deliveries from when dealing with Southern California clients, come directly to my door. >Also, what about insurance comparable to >malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents of our >index? Can they sue if they can't find something? >:-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance? See above about business liability. Auto insurance rates shouldn't be affected by driving to UPS, etc. unless you're way out in the boonies and do it very often. To save wear and tear on myself vs. my car (being only a block or two away from both UPS and Fedex dropoffs), I deliver most of my indexes electronically. That means I can also send off indexes at 3am and it gives you Sunday when the index is due Monday. Clients like that, too, as it saves them shipping and time. Always remember to offer that as a service when you get a new client. Email attachments and FTP both work. (Download CuteFTP shareware off the Web. It's a great FTP client.) > >5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do you do >it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months? When I did my major marketing blitz when first starting my business, I didn't make followup calls though I did get a client from it because I have a relatively obscure expertise--military electronics. All the rest of my business has come through referrals. > >6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this? No. ASI has a good sample contract. > >7. For volunteering you indexing services: At what point did you feel >comfortable doing this? I am about halfway through USDA Basic Indexing and I >surely don't feel comfortable with this idea yet (unless I had a mentor). I didn't do that myself, though I did index a poorly-indexed obscure electronics manual when I was about two-thirds of the way through the USDA course. It worked and got me a client the very first (and only) time I sent it out. (The client called me via a referral from a local chapter member and asked me to send them a sample index, so it wasn't part of the marketing blitz.) If you don't have a mentor, you can ask an experienced indexer to review it if you offer a reasonable rate or if you're on very friendly terms with one. Bartering services/goods, a time-honored tradition, can also work. If you're short on cash (who isn't when going through the huge expense of starting a business) and on friendships with indexing colleagues, you may want to consider what you could offer along those lines. You'd be surprised with what you come up with. :-D > >8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid when >there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed? Some take >half a page, some take a third... My own rule of thumb is that if I have to consider a page, regardless of whether it actually generates entries, it's indexable. Pages that are partly taken up by nonindexable illustrations containing any text other than the caption are indeed indexable at the full page rate. This not in any way gouging clients because there are likely to be other pages that generate a huge amount of entries. However, I discounted an invoice by hundreds of dollars when I found that a book contained many huge tables that were captured by large page ranges where the row/column data wasn't amenable to indexing (without going ridiculously overboard). If the book is mostly illustrations and light on text, you should reflect this in a lower page rate. Client goodwill resulting from your fairness is of immeasurable value though it may sting at the time to do this. ;-D Good luck to you and keep asking questions! You're doing the right thing by gathering as much info as you can because starting a business is an awesome undertaking. Gotta run. The all-time Godzilla *ever* of all crickets is crawling up my wall right now and I gotta make sure it doesn't go somewhere I don't want it to, like up my leg. Eeeeeeek! It just hopped somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:37:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Small Business Questions Home Office Computing has a web site http://www.smalloffice.com that has a great deal of information about running a home based business. They also have 2 live text chats on AOL Editor's chats Wednesday at 3:00 pm ET, one of the editors will be online to answer questoins abut hardware, software small-businness issues. Keyword HOC Business Dinner Wednesday at 8:00 pm ET Each week is a chat on a topic relting to small business with an expert in a given field. Keyword soho I don't use AOL so I don't know about the chat's but the web site is pretty good. Roberta Horowitz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe At 01:29 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Lindsay Gower wrote: >Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. >How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly >bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely >from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you >indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm >trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other >than busy-ness. I esimtate that my indexing work totals about 3/4 of a regular workweek most of the time...weeks where I might have to spend 50-60 hours at my desk, offset by weeks where I have no current projects. If necessary, I could support myself solely on indexing, but it would be a mighty low-key lifestyle. If I were not simultaneously trying to get another business off the ground and also working at my third job (advertising and graphic design), I'd be indexing a lot more...and thus would have a much better income from it. My husband also works at home, in his own business, so we are both in a situation where there are no "givens" in terms of wages or salary or insurance or any of the rest. It's difficult enough to make it these days when you have one steady wage-earner and a partner who is a freelancer...try imagining life when BOTH of you are, essentially, out there without a safety net! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume At 10:27 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Carolyn Weaver wrote: >I second most of Sonsie's comments, but beg to differ with the statement that > >"authors will pay you a pittance." They'll pay whatever reasonable fee you >quote (unless they can find somebody to work for less). I have done quite a >few indexes for authors - including repeat business for one prolific author >who publishes a book about every three year. If the author were a personal >friend I might offer a discount; but in general, my minimum rates are the >same regardless of who's paying the bill. Carolyn, perhaps I was guilty of overgeneralization, but in my experience authors do their own indexes because they have to--and because they don't want to pay the publisher to hire a professional. Not every author is a penny-pincher, but many are. I agree completely with the rest of your comments about getting a signed contract and so forth. Because you're dealing with an individual and not an organization, if something goes wrong you have somewhat less chance to eventually receive payment. Covering these contingencies is important. I've done a fair amount of work directly for authors and have had generally good experiences...except that overall they pay much less than I can get from a publisher or packager. I'm glad your experience has been better! :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. At 10:05 PM 9/12/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote: >Carolyn: except that the home office deduction is worth very little if you >have a house purchased years ago since it is now based on the original, >purchase price, plus any improvements. The base value for tax purposes of >my house is perhaps 40% of the real value. Paul, I think you may be confusing the depreciation part of the HOD (home office deduction) with the rest of it. From reviewing my Form 8829 (home office deduction for the IRS), I see that my housing expenses (including mortgage, real estate taxes, repairs, maintenance, utilities, and so forth) are set out in full and that I can take that percentage of them that is equal to the percentage of my home that my office occupies (in my case, 17%). I can also take depreciation on the portion of my home that is used for income-producing purposes...and THIS figure is, indeed, based in part on the original price of the property plus improvements. The value of my HOD last year was almost $5000-- definitely worth bothering with! The depreciation portion of that was $737. I expect to be talking with my tax preparer (who is also a personal friend) in the next day or two, and I'll ask him if I'm interpreting this correctly. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:58:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: business questions At 09:48 AM 9/13/97 -0400, Chris Carr wrote: >1. What are the reasons for registering your business name? Do you legally >*have to*? I can see where it would protect your business name if it were >different from your personal name, but other than that, I don't understand. > And, does it protect you for the county, the state, the country, or what? If you're talking about a DBA (Doing Business As) type registration, most localities require this...not so much to protect YOU as to protect your customers. If you;re doing business as ABC Indexing, your customers are entitled to know just who they are really dealing with. The fictitious name statement or DBA is usually filed through your city or county clerk. In my area, it costsabout $15, plus another $30 to have it published in the legal column of the local paper. Yes, you have to do this anywhere I know of. If you want to register your business name so that nobody else can use it, that's a whole other issue and too complex to go into right now. Most people in our situation don't bother. >2. Do you collect sales tax? Accept credit cards? Is your tax ID number >different than your social security number for this? In CA, sales tax is not collected on professional services, which I offer as an indexer. No, I don't collect sales tax. I also don't accept credit cards; in all the years I've been in business, I've never once been asked to take them. I use my SS number as my tax ID number, which is quite proper. You don't need a separate tax ID number for most purposes. >3. Do bank accounts and phone lines *have to* be listed as business accounts? > What extra services do you get for paying that extra money? I know business >bank accounts cost more, but I surely won't do any payroll or anything else >that a personal checking account couldn't take care of. Any comments? If you want a bank account in your business name, you must provide a copy of your DBA. These accounts may or may not cost more. Mine is free, as is my personal checking account. The bank was offering a deal, and I took them up on it. All you really need is a separate account...and this is for convenience and in case you ever have to show the IRS proof of business expenses. A fair number of people don't even bother with a separate account, but IMO they are taking a calculated risk. It makes bookkeeping a lot easier if you have one. A business telephone allows you to have a listing in your area yellow pages...not especially helpful for businesses such as ours. It's probably not essential, unless your local phone company insists on it and will give you a hard time if they discover otherwise. >4. About insurance: I have seen that a lot of you carry insurance to cover >computers and other equipment. What about liability insurance? Does the >fact that delivery people come for business purposes change things? Do some >of you take delivery at a post office to avoid the issue? Does it complicate >things with FedEx or UPS? Also, what about insurance comparable to >malpractice or errors and omissions? Are we liable for the contents of our >index? Can they sue if they can't find something? >:-) Does driving to UPS (or wherever) change your auto insurance? I don't think many of us carry business errors and omissions insurance, though some may. Having an umbrella liability policy is inexpensive insurance against disaster...not only the UPS guy slipping and falling on your front steps, but a client doing the same. Having a delivery person drop by occasionally should not "change things" in terms of cost of insurance, nor should visiting the UPS office in person make your car insurance cost more. Why should it? We do this anyway, even if we're not in business. You should absolutely check with your insurance agent and explain your business and personal situations to him or her and get professional advice, of course. I'm speaking only from my own experience. Yes, I'd say that we're responsible for the contents of our indexes, but in almost no conceivable circumstance would it cost us more than what we were paid to do it if we made some egregious error. That's why most of us don't carry E&O insurance. And most of us also would cheerfully correct any mistakes of ours that were found before publication...so that's also a moot point. >5. Marketing: For those of you who follow up letters with calls, do you do >it only once, or on a regular basis, like every 3-6 months? It depends on how eager I am to work for the specific company, and also on what happend the first time I called. If I was told my name was being put on file, I'd continue to call occasionally to refresh their memory. OTOH, if they don't use freelancers, or use them very rarely, I wouldn't bother to call back. >6. Contracts: How many of you consulted a lawyer about this? I haven't specifically consulted a lawyer, but I've had years of experience with contracts and have read enough do-it-yourself books (especially from Nolo Press, whom I highly recommend) that I feel confident about my skills in this area. I've rarely been "taken," and when I have, I've also been able to sue--and collect. >8. How do you *really* (specifically) count indexable pages for a bid when >there are a lot of illustrations, etc., that will not be indexed? Some take >half a page, some take a third... If the problem is this complex (lots of photographs, partial pages of text, and so on), I develop a final page count WITH the production editor. I've never had a problem doing this; we are both satisfied that it's fair. I've also had instances where there's been a disagreement over a per-hour fee, when the editor has felt I should be able to index more pages per hour than I've based my bid on. When this happens, I frequently offer to do a sample and show how many entries per page are required and how long the sample took. This helps. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:08:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Beginners - USDA indexing course Linda: May I ask how long it took for you to receive your USDA materials after you registered? I have not even received a confirmation after 1 month, even though I e-mailed asking for confirmation. (You can answer me personally.) Emily Adelsohn Pasadena, CA Emadelsohn@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:05:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. At 09:24 AM 9/13/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote: >But your mortage payments are not the basis of the deduction but the >purchase price of the house. My point is that since I purchased my house >some years ago at a price that is a third of the current market that >strictly limits what I can deduct. My deduction is absolutely peanuts >compared to what office space goes for around here and if one is not >careful you get audited. The home office deduction is not what it used to >be. Paul, see my earlier post about how the HOD is figured...I think you've got it wrong. My HOD is worth about $5000 to me. In my area, I can rent an office the size of mine for about $1 a square foot, which would cost me about $3000 a year, so the HOD actually generates a cash benefit in my case. If I took more expensive digs or had a larger space, of course that difference would disappear. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:08:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs I am reasonably content with using AOL for e-mails only (at their rock-bottom rate of $4.95/mo.) and a local service provider called Earthlink for "surfing." I can work around AOL's access problems that way; there's no delay in getting on-line to download e-mails first thing in the morning, and then I have all day to read and respond off-line for transmission the next morning. Emily Adelsohn Pasadena, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:32:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. In-Reply-To: <199709131802.LAA24784@mx3.u.washington.edu> Sonsie: your housing expenses must be much more than mine, your original housing price much greater and your office huge (mine is barely 15 percent of all our 'usable" space). If I can write off $1200 a year, it is a good year. Also note that if you write off a percentage of real estate taxes, mortage interest (not the mortage payment) etc. as a home office deduction you have to subtract this from the amount you use for the regular deduction. If you do not take the standard deduction and have more deductions including mortage interest and real estate taxes, etc., you are simply shifting the deductions to the business side. The only benefit of this is reducing your self-employment tax. On the other hand, if you are paying at the 28% rate there may be a benefit in not shifting things to the home office. And how much are utilties in your area? They are probably more. Around here we have cheap electrical power except for heating and cheap natural gas. Utilities for the whole house usually average only about $140.00 a month. I should mention that I do not include telephone (about $800 a year, more in the past) as a home office expensive, but list it separately. Maybe that is another reason for the different. Then there are capital gains taxes, possibly payable on the part of the home you used for business if you sell the house. In short, your HOD seems astronomical although not unlike the amount I used before the law was changed and I based my HOD on what comparable office space would cost me in the real world. Paul D. buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe,but it doesn't need to be t Someone wrote: >particularly since a home-based worker has much lower >job-related expenses for commuting, lunches out, >business clothes, child care, etc. I've only recently started indexing, but this statement made me do a double-take. Granted, I don't have any expenses for lunches out -- but I bagged it when I was working for someone else, so lunch expenses are about the same. Business clothes -- I was a teacher and dressed in "nice casual", so the clothes I wear now are about the same, in style and price, as when I worked outside my home. Commuting and daycare? I still "commute", in that I take my daughter to daycare and to preschool, and pick her up; if she wasn't in daycare, I wouldn't have much free time to index or market my services. So frankly, my job-related expenses haven't changed much. I'm wondering if this is true for other people, too? Kara Pekar ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:09:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. At 12:32 PM 9/13/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote: >Sonsie: your housing expenses must be much more than mine, your original >housing price much greater and your office huge (mine is barely 15 percent >of all our 'usable" space). If I can write off $1200 a year, it is a good >year. Paul, my office constitutes about 17% of our 2600-s.f. house, so it's not huge by any means. I'm sure the original cost of my house is high compared to yours, as we live in one of the most expensive areas in the country (Central CA). But the depreciation (based on that price) amounts to only 15% of my total HOD. >Also note that if you write off a percentage of real estate taxes, >mortage interest (not the mortage payment) etc. as a home office deduction >you have to subtract this from the amount you use for the regular >deduction. If you do not take the standard deduction and have more >deductions including mortage interest and real estate taxes, etc., you are >simply shifting the deductions to the business side. The only benefit of >this is reducing your self-employment tax. Yep, that's what we're doing...shifting costs from column A to column B, to reduce our SE tax. Since we are both self-employed, this pays off big-time for us. There have been several years in the recent past when the bulk of our federal tax was SE tax, so this makes sense to do. On the other hand, if you are >paying at the 28% rate there may be a benefit in not shifting things to >the home office. We still have plenty of Schedule A deductions (high medical expenses, lots of leftover home mortgage interest, etc.) >And how much are utilties in your area? They are probably >more. Around here we have cheap electrical power except for heating and >cheap natural gas. Utilities for the whole house usually average only >about $140.00 a month. I should mention that I do not include telephone >(about $800 a year, more in the past) as a home office expensive, but list >it separately. Maybe that is another reason for the different. I have a business line to my office, and a separate line for my modem, both of which are deducted on my Schedule C. Our utilities (not counting the telephones and nondeductible stuff like cable TV) average about $250 a month, which I'm sure makes a difference. And we've had some rather high maintenance and repair expenditures, which also adds to the value of our HOD. And remember, both my husband and I are taking the HOD, which pushes the total value even higher. He deducted about $2500 on his Schedule C for 1996, while I took close to $5000 (he's got a smaller office). >Then there >are capital gains taxes, possibly payable on the part of the home you used >for business if you sell the house. In short, your HOD seems astronomical >although not unlike the amount I used before the law was changed and I >based my HOD on what comparable office space would cost me in the real >world. We'll be able to deal with the recapture provisions pretty well, I think. My husband expects to move his office out of the house next year, and since we're in a position to carefully time the eventual sale of this house, I can choose not to take the HOD for a long enough time to obviate any recapture. In short, I think it depends mightily on the individual situation, but the deduction is not specifically tied to the original price of the house plus improvements. That seems to apply only to the depreciation portion of the HOD. The rest depends on your expenses. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:48:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Survey? Happiness with ISPs I am pretty happy using ATT's WorldNet service, which is country-wide and has two local phone numbers in my area (Cambridge, MA). I pay $19.95 per month for unlimited time, and very seldom encounter a busy signal. I pay an additional $9.95 per month for access via WorldNet to AOL, and again seldom encounter a busy signal. WorldNet offers personal Web pages, at a very reasonable charge (I don't recall at the moment, but I think about $5 per month.) One should be able to deduct a fee for a business web page without question; and also whatever percentage of ISP charges are time used for business - and for investment tracking as well. Carol Roberts wrote: > > >> > . . . If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account, > >>can you > >> >deduct part or all of the monthly fees . . . > > I'll be darned. I don't think I ever posted that! Clipped from somebody > else's and somehow mixed up with one of mine? Oh well. > > Anyway, I looked for a local provider, because I already knew I didn't want > AOL or Compuserv. I pay around $21 a month for unlimited service, including > a Web page. My local outfit is called Mix Communications, hence the > "mixcom" in my address. I've been very happy with it. > > Cheers, > > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:42:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" and the costs of doing business. In-Reply-To: <199709132113.OAA16368@mx2.u.washington.edu> Sonsie: sounds like you are on top of it. My house, by way of comparison, cost only $75,000 when we bought it and we have added only about $15,000 in value since then (16 years). So the depreciation amount is very small for us. It is about 2500 sq ft too. Our refinanced mortage, the old unpaid balance plus a new roof, is at a relatively favorable rate too and insurance is low too since we don't have to worry about canyon fires or canyon floods (if a flood reaches our house, 350 ft+, it's goodbye Seattle). The only thing we probably pay more of than you do is property taxes, almost $2,000 a year now. Sounds like I need to move to Bellevue and buy a bigger house. I knew those $300,000+ houses over there had some advantage! Hope all of this provides fodder for those dealing with the HOD. It can be a worthwhile thing. As for myself, I lost much when they changed the tax law and bought a house. I was better off renting. Paul PS: I assume that everyone knows that to take a HOD you must show a profit and at least enough to equal the HOD. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:09:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709131802.LAA06362@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> I just have to vent (and take a needed break). I'm working on an index for a very strange style guide that's driving me up the wall. I'm subcontracting to a packager on this, so there's no hope of reaching anyone responsible for the style guide. First of all, they don't allow *any* prepositions or conjunctions at all in subentries. Now, I can live without leading and ending preps, but sometimes you absolutely need one in the middle if the subentry is to make sense. I've wrestled through a few indexes with this style guide, but this one is extremely difficult because many concepts imply direction if they are to be understood. For example: copying files disk to tape tape to disk So, to avoid using prepositions I'm creating entries, as: copying files disk-tape tape-disk This looks downright weird and I doubt if anyone other than me will understand them. Some look even worse. I did resist the temptation to do "disk-->tape" types of constructions. ;-D Other subentries, not implying directionality, sometimes become downright inscrutable. Because conjunctions are totally forbidden, I've been forced to use a slash instead of the word "and" in some instances where a subentry refers to two things. The alternative is to make two separate subentries with the same page number to grasp both concepts which would make this already huge index even larger. An example: ...(equipment name) powering on and booting became ...(equipment name) powering on/booting The above example isn't too bad, but I've ended with several subentry lists where more than one subentry is like that. To make this even more interesting, I'm limited to three words maximum per subentry, which also causes a lot of slashing or other oddities. Some concepts come as paired words that are totally inscrutable or very misleading if one word is omitted. Well, if the other part of the concept is also a pair of words, I've gone over the limit. Enter stage left the otherwise unnecessary subsubentry. Secondly, the style guide requires that all See also refs be in reciprocal pairs. This wrecks a lot of havoc with the structure of the index. To avoid cross-referencing something to a higher-level concept, I'm forced to either generate tons of subsubentries by double-posting or not create the cross reference at all. This also rules out general cross references, which would be absurd pointing back to the higher level concept from each target, leading to a ridiculous amount of classification. Fourth, the client loves classification (any wonder why?). So, I have column after column of subentries that simply shouldn't be classified in the real world. Plus, the client loves a main entry "procedures", insisting that users love that main heading. Would anyone here look for "procedures" as a main heading in an operations manual where everything is a procedure of one sort or another? Fifth, with all of these restrictions and anomalies, I'm constantly restructuring the blasted thing trying to make it work. So, this book, which would otherwise be a no-brainer, is a tedious, frustrating nightmare. Lastly, I was explicitly told that they don't want user-friendly indexes, that the user can look up the reference if they don't understand it in the index. False drops here we come. Hmmmm. The only absolutely weird thing I've been able to talk them out of is their use of adjectives as main headings!!!! (The packager felt we could sneak that in.) Of course the turnaround time is way too short. Of course the pages are printed on both sides making a lot of messing around with the proofs, looking at the wrong page, etc. Why do I keep doing this to myself? They pay well and within a week of being invoiced. Well, back to the grind. BTW, when the "able to leap tall buildings" cricket hopped onto hubby's desk (thankfully not mine) with an audible thud, it immediately disappeared somewhere. So, I'm indexing in a constant state of glancing around the room wondering "Where is that monster?" With three desks, two bookcases, a credenza and tons of other stuff in here, it could suddenly pounce from anywhere . (No, it hasn't chirped once to give away its location.) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:46:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709132313.QAA16216@mx5.u.washington.edu> Lynn: first of all, don't reenlist. One suggestion tape to disk, why not use the > sign indicating directed output, >, i.e., copying tape > disk disk > tape The problem with using -> is its association with structures., but > or >> are perfectly good output signs. One is Unix, the other Unix and C++. Procedure is a can of worms. Yes, everything is a procedure, I suppose, but procedure is also a computer buzz word for certain languages, where functions are call procedures. Is this the problem. As for the rest, what a nightmare. Too late to quit? And I thought I had worked for some strange people. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:14:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: Re: query sheet & software Carolyn, Thanks so much for your reply. My intent has been to 'get by' for my first index and then with what I make buy a software program. Someone recommended that I get a demo copy of Cindex while I'm waiting for my first job and then after I've played around with it and when I get my first job, turn around and order it posthaste. That's what I'm doing. Thanks again. Stephanie SBO12441 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:29:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) At 04:09 PM 9/13/97 -0700, Lynn wrote: >I just have to vent (and take a needed break). I'm working on an index for >a very strange style guide that's driving me up the wall. . . . > >First of all, they don't allow *any* prepositions or conjunctions at all in >subentries. Now, I can live without leading and ending preps, but sometimes >you absolutely need one in the middle if the subentry is to make sense. >I've wrestled through a few indexes with this style guide, but this one is >extremely difficult because many concepts imply direction if they are to be >understood. For example: > >copying files > disk to tape > tape to disk > >So, to avoid using prepositions I'm creating entries, as: > >copying files > disk-tape > tape-disk > >This looks downright weird and I doubt if anyone other than me will >understand them. . . . This and just about everything else you mention about your project sounds absurd indeed, but since you're still wrestling with it (for good and quick pay) here's a suggestion that might help out a tiny bit: how 'bout turning those hyphens into dashes as a way of communicating the sense of "to" a little more clearly? "Sheeesh", as you would say. ;-) Rotsaruck. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:06:15 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Marketing: 1st Job/Resume In-Reply-To: <199709131802.LAA00969@pacific.net> Carolyn wrote:>>If the author were a personal >>friend I might offer a discount; but in general, my minimum rates are the >>same regardless of who's paying the bill. > Sonsie wrote: <...>Not every author is a >penny-pincher, but many are. Just want to say that the authors I've worked with have paid me at least my minimum, except for a personal friend, and they've been anxious to pay me a living wage. I also have a personal friend who publishes a few books a year, and he pays me my minimum to index when he needs one. I know I've been fortunate in this. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:54:51 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709132313.QAA25028@pacific.net> Lynn wrote: >Lastly, I was explicitly told that they don't want user-friendly indexes, >that the user can look up the reference if they don't understand it in the >index. False drops here we come. Hmmmm. One can't help but wonder, if not user friendly, why bother? And, why go to such lengths to make them unfriendly? But, oh well. >BTW, when the "able to leap tall buildings" >cricket hopped onto hubby's desk (thankfully not mine) with an audible >thud, it immediately disappeared somewhere. So, I'm indexing in a constant >state of glancing around the room wondering "Where is that monster?" I'll see your cricket and raise you a scorpion, which I found on the kitchen shelf over the cookbooks a few minutes ago. Crickets, as the Chinese say, are good luck. Scorpions genuinely make my skin crawl, especially in my kitchen. Something so archetypally terrifying about their shape... Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:44:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In a message dated 97-09-13 19:13:51 EDT, Lynn wrote: << Would anyone here look for "procedures" as a main heading in an operations manual where everything is a procedure of one sort or another? >> No, I'd go directly to the verb (copying, deleting..) or to what the verb was supposed to act on (files, folders...) I do realize you are addressing more complex procedures. And after 15 years of gastroenterology research, I may be biased. When I hear the word "procedure" I think of a polypectomy. ;-) And did I read you right? They do not want it user-friendly? Why even publish a user-hostile index? Good grief! In Sympathy, Micki ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:15:26 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: Dublin conference After a very hectic week, with several deadlines I'm at last finding time to write about the Society of Indexers conference in Dublin. Chris Blackburn has already given a very good summary of the "business" side, so I will just add a few comments about the "social" side. I thoroughly enjoyed the conference, which was held at Trinity College - right in the centre of the city. Although I only live just across the Irish Sea, I've never been to Ireland before, so I yielded to the temptation to skip some of the conference sessions and spend a bit of time seeing the city. Trinity College itself is interesting to look around, and as conference attendees we were allowed free entry to the Old Library with the Book of Kells. The old library itself is fascinating - for a picture see the Trinity College web site. A snippet of info - anyone can stay in the accommodation at Trinity during the summer vacation - prices start at 28 irish pounds a night bed and breakfast, and you can book by e-mail - see the Trinity College web site for details. One of my main reasons for going to conferences is to meet other indexers and see old friends. We missed out a little on this at this conference, as some of the meals were in communal areas, and there was _no_ bar - a surprising omission this, in a land of bars. I didn't even get to try a pint of Guinness... (it's supposed to taste better in Ireland). So I didn't get to meet as many people as usual - I didn't meet Chris, and I didn't meet Maria Sullivan Young - although I did attend her Cindex session (and I now know how to pronounce her name). However indexers are resourceful people and some managed to procure supplies of booze for the usual late night sessions. It was during one of these that a number of indexing-related limericks were composed. These were read out on the last morning. It was very good to have some publishers at the conference. There is a thriving publishing industry in Ireland and not many indexers - two full-time, Helen Litton and Julitta Clancy, although there were complaints that newcomers to indexing found it difficult to get a foothold. One interesting statistic that came up: 100 000 books were published in the UK in 1996. The equivalent figure in the US is 40 000. Future SI conferences planned are (with apologies for any mistakes): July 1998 Tynemouth (North-East England). October 1999 Canterbury Kent (South-East England), and in 2000 a 3 day conference in Cambridge (July I think). All overseas participants are very welcome! Many thanks to Helen Litton and colleagues who organised the Dublin conference - see you in Tynemouth next year. Liza Weinkove e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:04:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: "cheaper freelancers" maybe I am glad to know others rely on God's care also . Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:47:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: Small Business Questions Home Office Computing's Paul and Sarah Edwards have written a number of excellent books (available at most public libraries) on small business; marketing, tax questions, etc. I reviewed many of them for "Library Journal." They are well worth reading if you are a beginner or even if you aren't. Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:11:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Re[4]: "cheaper freelancers" maybe In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970912132930.00979660@mailhost.persistence.com> >Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. >How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly >bills does your indexing work pay? I do about 1 index per month, and it's about an eighth of my total income, sometimes less, sometimes more. Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:13:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709132347.QAA22959@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 04:46 PM 9/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >Lynn: first of all, don't reenlist. One suggestion tape to disk, why not >use the > sign indicating directed output, >, i.e., >copying > tape > disk > disk > tape > >The problem with using -> is its association with structures., but > or >> >are perfectly good output signs. One is Unix, the other Unix and C++. Hi Paul, What an excellent suggestion! Thank you! > >Procedure is a can of worms. Yes, everything is a procedure, I suppose, >but procedure is also a computer buzz word for certain languages, where >functions are call procedures. Is this the problem. No, this isn't the problem. Despite the hundreds and hundreds of commands, it's not a C, C++, etc. book. The commands seem to be associated with the system firmware and its proprietary operating system. I know what you mean about the term "procedure" often referring to subroutines or functions, but fortunately that's not the issue here. The manual is about operating a certain type of hardware with a computerized interface. So it's also full of commands and file management procedures. Awesome equipment produced by a household-name manufacturer. > >As for the rest, what a nightmare. Too late to quit? And I thought I >had worked for some strange people. Paul D. Buell Actually, it would be a piece of cake without the style guide restrictions and if the text wasn't so dense with indexable concepts and terms. I wish I could quit and I was reluctant to take it on in the first place, remembering how hard the other books were. I'm coming down with a bug or something making it an impossible struggle to sit here at the computer for as long as I need to without crashing. So on top of everything else, I'm way behind on it. Eeeek! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:59:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709140154.SAA20848@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 06:29 PM 9/13/97 -0700, Michael wrote: >At 04:09 PM 9/13/97 -0700, Lynn wrote: >This and just about everything else you mention about your project sounds >absurd indeed, but since you're still wrestling with it (for good and quick >pay) here's a suggestion that might help out a tiny bit: how 'bout turning >those hyphens into dashes as a way of communicating the sense of "to" a >little more clearly? Hi Michael, Thanks for the suggestion!! I did try that early on, but still was unsure of whether it would be clear to the user. So, I'm going with Paul's suggestion of using a right angle bracket (>). But thanks so much for trying to figure this out for me. It's deeply appreciated! > >"Sheeesh", as you would say. ;-) And that's just what got printed on index-l. You wouldn't want to hear what I've said here in the privacy of my own office. ;-D > >Rotsaruck. I'll need it! Surely, my magic wand is around here someplace. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:02:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709140645.XAA29538@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 02:44 AM 9/14/97 -0400, Micki wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-13 19:13:51 EDT, Lynn wrote: > ><< Would anyone here look for "procedures" > as a main heading in an operations manual where everything is a procedure > of one sort or another? >> > >No, I'd go directly to the verb (copying, deleting..) or to what the verb was >supposed to act on (files, folders...) I do realize you are addressing more >complex procedures. And after 15 years of gastroenterology research, I may >be biased. When I hear the word "procedure" I think of a polypectomy. ;-) Hi Micki, ROFL!!!!!! This index is like a sigmoidoscopy without the lubricant. ;-D Thanks for confirming how *you'd* look up a procedure which is how I always index them (including in this book). It helps to know that I'm not orbiting another planet after all. > >And did I read you right? They do not want it user-friendly? Why even >publish a user-hostile index? Good grief! I keep asking myself the exact same question! In the second book I did for them (several books back), I had an extremely short turnaround (like 36-48 hrs) on a large book that had to be embedded in FrameMaker no less. So a few five-word subentries got past the editing process. I was angrily told, "You created a user-friendly index and it's *not* supposed to be user-friendly!!" I'm not making this up. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:58:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709140605.XAA22041@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 10:54 PM 9/13/97 LCL, Victoria wrote: > >One can't help but wonder, if not user friendly, why bother? And, why go >to such lengths to make them unfriendly? But, oh well. Hi Victoria, Ah, the perversity of human nature. I can't figure it out either. > > >I'll see your cricket and raise you a scorpion, which I found on the >kitchen shelf over the cookbooks a few minutes ago. Eeeeeek!!!!!!! Fortunately we don't have those critters around here, even though this is supposedly the desert. > Crickets, as the >Chinese say, are good luck. Scorpions genuinely make my skin crawl, >especially in my kitchen. Something so archetypally terrifying about their >shape... Archetypically terrifying is right! That's why they represent an astrological sign, IMHO. ;-D Is it any comfort to know that they try to avoid needlessly stinging since it takes 14 hours to recharge their venom? No, I didn't think so. ;-D For some reason, crickets come into our house all of the time and because of the Chinese saying, we don't kill them or let the cat kill them. Though we do gently catch them in a cup and put them outside when there are too many running around. [Sidenote: Even the cat, huntress extraordanaire, wouldn't come into the office after I spotted that gyrasticus in here. Now that's scarey.] However, this one was so big it should be paying rent and I asked hubby to play the lottery since big cricket should equal big luck. ;-D Weird thing is that hubby (just a few hours later) read in a magazine about a Web site containing images of Jerusalem crickets which are supposedly enormous. (So this puppy is obviously a long way from home.) It hasn't *still* reappeared nor chirped, so I'm still looking over my shoulder. Now, I'm dying to know how you got the scorpion out of your kitchen or are you still treading carefully in there? You won the bet in the Arthropod Olympics, BTW. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:33:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) Lynn: If they don't want it to be user-friendly, then give them literally what they ask for and forget it. There is a crude saying that you can't polish a turd. Your client has specifically requested a turd. Don't waste your time trying to polish it. (And request that your name not be associated with the end product.) Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:59:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Authors, a horror story In-Reply-To: <199709140605.XAA27960@mx4.u.washington.edu> My experience working for authors has been that they pay well and on time. But I do academic indexes. Also: institutes and programs are often the ones paying. As a translator I have often been told not to work for individuals, "they don't pay," whereas I have never been stiffed by an individual, including students, just agencies, often quite big ones. Warning to the list: I recent did an index for an author in Mexico. Her institute was to pay the bill. Leaving aside all the problems I had with electronic and other communication with Mexico, all of which made this the job from hell, payment came by electronic transfer and here the fun started. The bank, in Mexico, initiating the electronic transfer, charged the institute $50.00 for the transfer, when the money reached my account, 2.5 percent has mysteriously disappeared and my bank charged me $20.00 for the transfer, all in all at total of $81.80 for a total bill that was well under $500.00!! Make sure any of you planning to do business across borders, especially with Mexico, take these things in account. Your agreement to do the index should specify net proceeds less all deductions in US $. If you quote a flat price, my suggestion is to add 20% if dealing across borders and if the costs are less, refund the money. I think international money orders are the way they usually do this kind of thing but in Mexico I am told they cannot trust the mails. The result, what a rip off! Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:07:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709141413.HAA16814@mx2.u.washington.edu> Lynn: glad to make one useful suggestion! Sounds like you are in nerd land. I have been in the unfortunate position before of dealing with nerd specifications in a non-nerd area. It is unpleasant. I also interviewed with a company once where the nerds had written the scripts for international voice messages that where to be interchanged country by country. Problem was the scripts assumed an English word order. They went to Japan, and what do you know, the assumed patterns did not work. Apparently they had plans to move into the Turkish market too (English: I am hungry == Turkish: hunger+my there is, and that is an easy pattern for Turkish, it gets much worse). I was told that if I were to be hired it was to fix the problems but that the programmers had already made decisions about the linguistic structures and I was not to alter them. I probably blew it when I cracked up at that point, or was it when they asked me if it would be OK to use Spanish (Mexican) in the Rio market! I think the suggestion that one may have to alter script to fit the language rather than the language to fit the script went write over their heads. It is a wonder that some companies survive and make money at all. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: going up the wall (me, not the cricket) In-Reply-To: <199709141434.HAA13430@mx5.u.washington.edu> Actually, you can polish a turd, one they are fossilized! But not very well. Paul D. Buell (ex-archaeologist, whose tried) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:47:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ Book Indexers Chat Room Hi everyone, We we have now set up an easy entrance page for the ICQ Book Indexers Chat just go to web site: http://members.aol.com/bookindexr or if you are a aol member click on this: ICQ Book Indexr Chat Just click on the download but in the ICQ Communiation Panel. Thanks Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:35:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Indexing Income uses In reply to Linsay Gower, who wrote: > Several people have commented recently that they get plenty of business. > How does this translate into annual income? What portion of your monthly > bills does your indexing work pay? Are any of you earning a living solely > from indexing (and is that living above the subsistence level)? Are you > indexing to bring in income to supplement another wage earner's salary? I'm > trying to get a sense of what "plenty of business" means in terms other > than busy-ness. > I'm not quite sure how most people who have this freelance income actually pay all their bills, but I am fortunate to be able to use my income in a supplementary way, since my husband works for a corporation with good benefits. Since I have slow periods with no income (primarily Mar/Apr), we decided to have my husband's income pay for all recurring expenses, including some that are partially "business" by IRS standards, and to use my income for special projects/events, such as vacation, Christmas, home repair/improvement projects, etc. These items can be put off or worked around during my slow periods. I hope to get my income up to $30,000 eventually. Looks like I might hit 20 this year. But I wouldn't want my income to be the only one, for sure. My colleagues tell me that eventually my slow period will disappear, and that should improve the income flow. I also create an income gap every year by going on a 2 week vacation no matter what. It's well worth the lost income for the gain in sanity and serenity. Again, though, I don't have to pay all my bills with my indexing income. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen 9597 Jones Rd. #113 Houston, TX 77065 281-469-4461 email: jbclend@flash.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:11:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: Dublin Limericks Liza writes: "a number of indexing-related limericks were composed. These were read out on the last morning." If any of these are printable, I would enjoy hearing them. I don't believe I have ever read an indexing-related limerick, and I yearn for broader knowledge. Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing