From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 26-NOV-1997 06:16:59.44 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711B" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:13:01 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:29:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ CHAT Don't forget the ICQ Chat Sat, 7:00 Cental Time Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:44:00 -0800 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS I'm a recovering programmer. Some of the qualities that appealed to me in programmer I also find in indexing: the need for attention to detail and concentration, working with language - using the correct syntax and word for the purpose, researching and analyzing tough problems, the ability to use my creative side in finding that simple but elegant solution, providing a functional service for the end-users. Caroline... I loved the lyrics! Regards, Lucie Haskins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:34:24 -0700 > From: Caroline Parks > Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS > > Thank you, Elsa! I truly needed a good laugh just at the moment your post > came through! > > For the virtual water cooler: > > I've often wondered, are many of us indexers recovering programmers? I > never worked a real job (as opposed to student internships) as a > programmer, but I loved the process of programming; for me it was a very > intuitive process. Indexing has a similar feeling -- I'd be hard pressed > to explain exactly what I do to build a good index -- and I even find > myself unravelling knotty indexes in my dreams, just as I used to do with > elusive programs. > > Caroline > > ____________________________ > > Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence > Indexing and Editorial Services > > Tijeras, NM > 505-286-2738 > caroline@rt66.com > > ------------------------------ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:48:25 -0800 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: NEW LYRICS TO BEATLES SONGS Sorry for the incorrect credit on my previous memo... Elsa, thank you for sharing the lyrics. And... I noticed that I mistakenly wrote "programmer" instead of "programming" in my previous message. A little embarrassing, especially when the message discussed the need for attention to detail. I love the little ways the universe provides lessons in humility. Lucie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:59:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael C. Rossa" Subject: Newby Gets Good News I've had something exciting happen that I'd like to share with y'all. This past week I received copies of the two books that I indexed for a new client in August and September. I had asked for portfolio copies and credit in the books, and the editor said they had never given credit before but he *supposed* I could get credit on the title page. Of course, I wasn't sure he would really do it, but, sure enough, he came through! That's exciting enough (my first credits), but what really astounded me was that the author of the better book mentioned me in his acknowledgments! He said "Thanks to Michael Rossa's stalwart efforts in indexing, the book has become user friendly." Imagine! Did that pick me up! I think that must be the best thing an indexer can hear. Isn't that really our mission? This is a book on pregnancy, and the author is an OB/GYN and professor of medicine at UT. I'm a full-time freelancer, and I wanted to post this to show other new indexers that really exciting things can happen to balance the tribulations of this business, and also to join the many others in thanking all the members of the list who have helped and encouraged us for so long. THANKS :-) Have a great week. I'm going to go read my acknowledgment again! :-) Mike 0000,0000,ffff* * * * * * * * Michael C. Rossa Allied Editorial (972) 267-2537 (972) 267-2538 Fax rossa@flash.net * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes The following was taken from the log of the AOL Bookindexer's Chat last Monday. I thought maybe some of you would have some input or experience in this. The question is. Can you index a book that originally didn't have an index, mainly fiction, and publish and distribute it yourself as a stand-alone index without the author or publishers permission? Or do you have to have their permission? I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. She said that short phrases were not copyrighted no title of books. I explained to her that it would contain several words from different pages of the book but none that would be consider a long phrase at the most probably 7 or 8 an normally one or two. She advised me to ask a lawyer. You would think they would know there own laws. Anyway I am at present considering indexing classic fictions and if the author, publisher, or Cliffs Notes doesn't want to publish it I will publish it myself in a series similar to Cliffs Notes but it will only contain the index. Do I have to have the author or publisher's permission to do this since I am the one creating the index? AOL Bookindexer's Chat 11/3/97 Bookindexr: Did any of you see the remark by Deborah Shaw (Shawd@mindspring) She said that she thought it was illegal to print an index without the authors permission CccJlc: Book author or index author? Bookindexr: Book author Mgendx: Yes book, I saw that. Bookindexr: It seems I have read somewhere where you could Mgendx: It was a good point. I'm not sure if it is correct, but I would be curious. Lawrenc846: For items beyond copyright date, I'm sure there is no problem. Mgendx: I know that when writing abstracts, I have to be careful not to "lift" from the article Lawrenc846: That is for books with an expired copyright. Indexlady: Ignorance here...how does one know if copyright has expire d? Bookindexr: But you are not actually copy the book itself I am going to call the copy right people and ask Lawrenc846: I don't know the exact number of years but at least 70 years since initial publishing. Mgendx: How long does a copyright last? I think there is a limit of some sort Indexlady: Copy right people should be on internet, right? Mgendx: Lawrence - can you read my mind? Mgendx: You answer questions as I type them. Bookindexr: Hmm maybe they are. I'll check into it. I have talked to them several times before. CccJlc: Mel-I don't quote any part of the articles I abstract, hardly even use the same words. Lawrenc846: For books still in print, I think it is a matter of what you produce. Provide added value and you are the author. REvans4: Try http://www.benedict.com/ Bookindexr: From what they have told me in the past the copy right protect a person's creative work. If you are the one creating the index it looks you would have the copy right for it. Mgendx: Ccc - I never quote, but there are times when I have to check to be sure Lawrenc846: In other words are you just doing an index or some sort of tool that is more than just an index. REvans4: Also http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/projects/copyright/index. html Mgendx: I don't have the same string or words in my abstract. CccJlc: Susan-who do you contact? Mgendx: I think the legal limit is 5 consecutive words. Indexlady: Thanks, Dick! Lawrenc846: That is my reading on it anyway. I'm not a copyright lawyer. CccJlc: I hadn't heard that exact number before...just that it could be a sentence here and there. Mgendx: "string or words" = string OF words Lawrenc846: Yes, I would imagine the indexer has the copyright but the publisher has the final say on publication. REvans4: And http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ Bookindexr: I have the number written down at work. I will get it tomorrow. Mgendx: I mean to check that. I'm sure that if it's a list of some sort, some leeway is permissible. Lawrenc846: And the publisher would want to contact the author. REvans4: BTW, my favorite search engine these days is Northern Ligh ts Search at http://www.nlsearch.c REvans4: I get the most useful hits on topics like this. CccJlc: Surely you can't get into trouble with an index as part of the book you need to use the same terminology, right? Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 12:04 PM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. I agrre with you that the answer is not clear cut. Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star Trek folks would have something to say about that. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:43:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Programmers in indexing I was a programmer for many years until the obscure language I used became more or less obsolete. I think there are some parallels between the two endeavors. A systematic approach to tasks is helpful for both. Another helpful ability, especially while editing an index, is being able to focus on one and only one of several concurrent problems. When I began programming someone of note in the field stated if he could apply only one test criteria to a prospective programmer it would be the ability to knit, which requires meticulous attention to detail and the repetition of sets of instructional steps. Again, I think some of that carries over to indexing. My $.02 Craig Brown ===================================== The Last Word Indexing (314)352-9094 lastword@i1.net ===================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:19:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Mullinix Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <199711081702.MAA04618@ kis.net> Consider this: "An index is not a mere appendage to a book. Itg is a separate and distinct written document. Indexes are written, not generated. As creative, authored works, indexes are granted copyright registration. -- Mulvany, Indexing Books At 12:04 PM 11/08/97 -0500, you wrote: >The following was taken from the log of the AOL Bookindexer's Chat last >Monday. I thought maybe some of you would have some input or experience in >this. > >The question is. Can you index a book that originally didn't have an index, >mainly fiction, and publish and distribute it yourself as a stand-alone index >without the author or publishers permission? Or do you have to have their >permission? > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: jill@bznet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Lasker Subject: Re: Newby Gets Good News Congrats! It's nice to see your enthusiasm and you should feel GREAT! A lurker -- Jill Lasker jill@bznet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:34:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In a message dated 97-11-08 12:51:39 EST, you write: << Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star Trek folks would have something to say about that. >> I think with the Star Trek example, you would encounter the same types of problems you would with any other licensed product. You would definately have problems. You would have to get licensing or authorization to do something with it, or maybe pitch yourself and get hired. BUT, with the classics and various fictional literature that are not licensed, I don't think it would be as problematic. I'm just comparing the two; I have no idea how problematic it would be either way. However, you might contact Cliff Notes people to find out what they go through. I do know a freelance permissions expert. If you would like to contact me privately, I can get you in touch with her. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:39:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 12:04 PM 11/8/1997 -0500, Susan Wilkerson wrote: >The question is. Can you index a book that originally didn't have an index, >mainly fiction, and publish and distribute it yourself as a stand-alone index >without the author or publishers permission? Or do you have to have their >permission? Yes, you can do this, from a legal standpoint. There is nothing in copyright law that prohibits making an index of a previously published work, as long as you don't exceed "fair use" standards, which are quite lenient in terms of approximate word count (anywhere from 100-300, roughly, depending on the length of the original work), and as long as you don't damage the owner's right to profit from his or her work. You'd actually be ADDING to the value, rather than detracting from it. However, I wouldn't do this for several reasons. One, you have a much better change of marketing such an index if it is recommended by the author or the publisher of the original book...or published by the same firm. Two, the cooperation of the author can be invaluable to an indexer, especially for such a complex project. Why not include the author? Finally, it seems slightly unethical (though certainly not illegal) to proceed with such a project without involving the author of the original work. I'd certainly do it if the author were dead, but otherwise I'd want to include him or her in the project. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:39:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 12:37 PM 11/8/1997 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek >novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star >Trek folks would have something to say about that. The term, "Star Trek," may very well be copyrighted or trademarked, Dick, which means that the owner of that mark can control the use of the term. IMO this is a different situation from indexing, say, "1001 Arabian Nights," and publishing the index/concordance. What I'm trying to say is that you've brought up what appears to be a trademark issue, which is different from the issue of whether or not a person can index a work not his own and then sell the index. I think THAT issue is pretty clear-cut...you can do it, so long as you do not affect the original author's ability to profit from his or her work. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:51:11 -0600 Reply-To: bookend@theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Regarding the comment about publishing an unsolicited index if the author of the original work is dead - don't forget about the heirs! Recently there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about Maslow's classic theories about management. The article mentioned that the book was out of print but was available on the Internet. It turned out that an individual, acting by himself, typed most of the text onto the Web so others could read and learn from it. He didn't ask for permission. Then one of Maslow's heirs got wind of the Web page and demanded thousands of dollars in compensation for the 'piracy.' The poor man is on the verge of financial ruin just from the legal fight. It seems intuitively wrong that an index can be a stand alone, creative work. It would not exist without the original piece of fiction or nonfiction. You can't claim sole intellectual right to the content when it is dependent on some one else's creativity. Susan Hernandez ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 05:51 PM 11/8/1997 -0600, Susan Danzi Hernandez wrote: >Regarding the comment about publishing an unsolicited index if the >author of the original work is dead - don't forget about the heirs! >Recently there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about Maslow's >classic theories about management. The article mentioned that the book was >out of print but was available on the Internet. It turned out that an >individual, acting by himself, typed most of the text onto the Web so >others could read and learn from it. He didn't ask for permission. Then >one of Maslow's heirs got wind of the Web page and demanded thousands of >dollars in compensation for the 'piracy.' The poor man is on the verge of >financial ruin just from the legal fight. That, IMO, is a clear violation of copyright and Maslow's heirs had a perfect right to sue (assuming that they owned the copyright). This is a good example of how, with the best of intentions, one can compromise a copyright owner's ability to profit from his or her work. If there is a great demand for this particular work by Maslow, let the copyright owners republish it and reap the financial rewwards. If another writer wants to include lengthy quotes or excerpts in his or her book, let that writer contact the copyright holder and ask permission (and pay whatever reasonable fee that is required). Most out-of-print books are available to readers one way or another...either secondhand bookstores, libraries, or reference centers. Entering a whole book on the Internet may seem like it's doing a service to the public, but it actually does a DISservice to the owners of the work in queston. >It seems intuitively wrong that an index can be a stand alone, >creative work. It would not exist without the original piece of fiction or >nonfiction. You can't claim sole intellectual right to the content when it >is dependent on some one else's creativity. Whether it seems intutitively correct or not, indexes are considered separate, creative works that can be registered with the U.S. Copyright Office. Most of us who do back-of-the-book indexing don't normally bother to negotiate copyright ownership with the entity that hires us to create an index (the publisher of the book, usually), but this can be an issue if the index itself has particular value as a separate entity. This would be vitally important, IMO, in the case of an index to a well-known work of fiction, where the index had real sales potential as a separate entity. Probably millions of people own _A Tale of Two Cities_, for example, and an index to that work has great appeal and sales potential. An index can be compared to drawings or photographs that illustrate a book. In one sense, they are dependent on the content of the book (if they were commissioned especially for that work), and you might think they are not "original" or copyrightable...but they are. And if they were selected separately because they relate to the subject of the work, then the author or publisher pays the artist a fee for use of his or her copyrighted material...just as if the writer had purchased the rights to reprint a lengthy excerpt from another book. While we don't normally think of an index as a stand-alone creative work, in many senses it is--or can be. This is particularly true as more and more electronic publishing takes place, where design of an index or keywording for access by search engines is a vital part of the actual publication process. The telephone book, for example, is nothing more than a giant index of phone numbers and addresses. It's a vital tool that stands alone, and it's copyrighted. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:04:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In a message dated 97-11-08 17:55:02 EST, you write: << Why not include the author? Finally, it seems slightly unethical (though certainly not illegal) to proceed with such a project without involving the author of the original work. I'd certainly do it if the author were dead, but otherwise I'd want to include him or her in the project. >> I wrote: <> If the author doesn't want or feel the need for an index I don't see why it would be unethical to produce one one my own? Am I thinking about this all wrong? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Copyright Laws for Stand Alone Indexes Bookindexr: Did any of you see the remark by Deborah Shaw (Shawd@mindspring) She said that she thought it was illegal to print an index without the authors permission CccJlc: Book author or index author? Bookindexr: Book author Mgendx: Yes book, I saw that. Bookindexr: It seems I have read somewhere where you could Mgendx: It was a good point. I'm not sure if it is correct, but I would be curious. Lawrenc846: For items beyond copyright date, I'm sure there is no problem. Mgendx: I know that when writing abstracts, I have to be careful not to "lift" from the article Lawrenc846:That is for books with an expired copyright. Indexlady: Ignorance here...how does one know if copyright has expired? Bookindexr: But you are not actually copy the book itself I am going to call the copy right people and ask Lawrenc846:I don't know the exact number of years but at least 70 years since initial publishing. Mgendx: How long does a copyright last? I think there is a limit of some sort Indexlady: Copy right people should be on internet, right? Mgendx: Lawrence - can you read my mind? Mgendx: You answer questions as I type them. Bookindexr: Hmm maybe they are. I'll check into it. I have talked to them several times before. CccJlc: Mel-I don't quote any part of the articles I abstract, hardly even use the same words. Lawrenc846:For books still in print, I think it is a matter of what you produce. Provide added value and you are REvans4: Try http://www.benedict.com/ Lawrenc846: the author. Bookindexr: From what they have told me in the past the copy right protect a person's creative work. If you are the one creating the index it looks you would have the copy right for it. Mgendx: Ccc - I never quote, but there are times when I have to check to be sure Lawrenc846: In other words are you just doing an index or some sort of tool that is more than just an index. REvans4: Also http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/projects/copyright/index.html Mgendx: I don't have the same string or words in my abstract. CccJlc: Susan-who do you contact? Mgendx: I think the legal limit is 5 consecutive words. Indexlady: Thanks, Dick! Lawrenc846: That is my reading on it anyway. I'm not a copyright lawyer. CccJlc: I hadn't heard that exact number before...just that it could be a sentence here and there. Mgendx: "string or words" = string OF words Lawrenc846: Yes, I would imagine the indexer has the copyright but the publisher has the final say on publication. REvans4: And http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ Bookindexr: I have the number written down at work. I will get it tomorrow. Mgendx: I mean to check that. I'm sure that if it's a list of some sort, some leeway is permissible. Lawrenc846: And the publisher would want to contact the author. REvans4: BTW, my favorite search engine these days is Northern Lights Sea rch at http://www.nlsearch.c REvans4: I get the most useful hits on topics like this. CccJlc: Surely you can't get into trouble with an index as part of the book you need to use the same terminology, right? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:59:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Newby Gets Good News In-Reply-To: <199711081458.JAA06654@beavis.inetdirect.net> >I'm a full-time freelancer, and I wanted to post this to show other new >indexers > that really exciting things can happen to balance the tribulations of this > business, and also to join the many others in thanking all the members of the > list who have helped and encouraged us for so long. THANKS :-) > > >Have a great week. I'm going to go read my acknowledgment again! :-) > > >Mike > Congratulations, Mike! You're an inspiration, and you've set an important example, too. Thanks! Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ..................................................... "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -- H. P. Lovecraft ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Newby Gets Good News Mike, Congratulations. Sometimes we all just gotta crow. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:19:39 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: news from New England 1) The Massachusetts chapter of ASI has a new feature on the chapter's web page. We list our members (with permission) and their indexing services. Please visit our site, and be sure to check our list of professional indexers. You can find us at this address: http://www.marisol.com/maasi/maasi.htm To add your name (Mass. chapter members only), please contact the web-master, Marilyn Rowland. 2) Thirty three indexers enjoyed an all-day workshop with DoMi Stauber yesterday. More on this and other chapter activities can be found in Keywords and on the web-page. Barbara Stroup President, Mass. Chapter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Per Entry Rates Let Bonnie know that you need an issue. There are a problem with some nondelivery, but everyone should have received by now. Many of the problems with KeyWords should be resolved by early 1998. Cynthia Bertelson is the new editor. By the way, I just got home from board and you can pass the word that Carolina is now the latest chapter. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:05:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 11:04 PM 11/8/1997 -0500, Susan Wilkerson wrote: >If the author doesn't want or feel the need for an index I don't see why it >would be unethical to produce one one my own? Am I thinking about this all >wrong? Since the authors of most classical fiction are long since dead, I don't see that there's a problem with this at all. In fact, my own thoughts about indexing fiction have revolved around MY favorite [dead] authors and their works. I was thinking specifically of situations where the author is living, and where I'd naturally ask for input and cooperation from him or her. I can see good sales potential for an index to, say, _Moby Dick_ or some other classical work that is long and complex. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:28:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: cookbook index To all: My sister sent me the following after I complained about a good cookbook having a lousy index. > > From the IC [Inglenook Cookbook, 1906]: > > " These recipes are numbered from one to one thousand, consecutively, and > are grouped according to the following index. To find a recipe, consult the > general index and then look it up between the numbers given after the > departments. To fix its place in the book, remember the number." > > INDEX Example > > Soups---1-32 > Fish, oysters and Game---33 to 50 > Both the recipes and the pages are numbered, the index lists the recipe > number. I suppose it's better than nothing. Mel --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: v. pie, quote Date: 97-11-07 23:04:19 EST From: Beadbe To: Mgendx Vinegar Pie.--Take 1 cup sorghum, 1 cup of sugar, 1cup of flour, 1 teaspoonful of soda, 1 teaspoonful each of cloves and cinnamon, 1 cup of vinegar, and 4 cups of water. Bake with undercrust andstrips of crust on top. This makes four pies.--Sister Stella G. Turner, Iliff, Colo. Vinegar Pie.--Take 1 egg, 1 heaping tablespoonful of flour, 1 teacupful of sugar. Beat all well together, then add vinegat to make it taste real sharp, ann 1 cup of cold water; flavor with lemon essence and bake with two crusts. Sister Cora B. Byer, Albert City, Iowa. These are from the book that ston page nine. Cora's vinegar pie in also in the Inglenook Cookbook that has a cover. It is recipe # 664. From the IC: " These recipes are numbered from one to one thousand, consecutively, and are grouped according to the following index. To find a recipe, consult the general index and then look it up between the numbers given after the departments. To fix its place in the book, remember the number." INDEX Example Soups---1-32 Fish, oysters and Game---33 to 50 Both the recipes and the pages are numbered, the index lists the recipe number. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:37:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: sorry My apologies for botching my forward of the cookbook index quote. If anyone tries the vinegar pie recipe, let me know how it turns out. Mel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <199711081737.MAA71138@rs8.loc.gov> > >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was > >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. In other words, she seems to be saying it is ok and is wondering why you thought otherwise, no? > Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek > novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star > Trek folks would have something to say about that. Aiyaiyai, didn't we go through this a few months ago? It is not a violation of copyright to index, summarize, or abstract another work. Think "creativity"--that is what is protected. One cannot ***at present*** copyright names, dates, facts, etc. "Columbus discovered America in 1492" is a fact and cannot be copyrighted. "In fourteen hundred and ninety-two//Columbus sailed the ocean blue" is "creative" and can be copyrighted. But the individual "indexable" terms (e.g., Columbus, 1492, ocean blue) are not copyrightable and can certainly be indexed, if one wishes. As for Star Trek, the name/character"James T. Kirk" cannot be copyrighted (trademark, however, is another issue) nor can the titles of various episodes, names of other characters, etc. be copyrighted. And am willing to bet the that the first Star Trek concordance was compiled by a fan (or some clever entrepreneur), not anyone associated with the show. Think also of bibliographies and price guides to various types of material (first editions, mysteries, cookbooks, films, etc.), no one needed "permission" to quote author, title, publishing information, etc. because none of that stuff can be copyrighted to begin with. Sam Andrusko *** I wrote "at present" because there was an attempt at legislation this past year by large commercial firms, esp. database firms, to allow them to copyright facts (e.g., baseball statistics), but I assume they did not cough up enough money to their favorite congress"people" because it failed to pass Congress. Stay tuned. Am sure they will try again. I believe such protection for databases has become legal in Europe. Am curious as to how the Supreme Court will rule if it becomes law here. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes (fwd) > >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was > >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. In other words, she seems to be saying it is ok and is wondering why you thought otherwise, no? (I believe you mentioned you and she got into a discussion concerning length of entries and such, but I think she was concerned with the "fair use" aspect--certainly not a problem in indexing). > Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek > novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star > Trek folks would have something to say about that. Aiyaiyai, didn't we go through this a few months ago? It is not a violation of copyright to index, summarize, or abstract another work. Think "creativity"--that is what is protected. One cannot ***at present*** copyright names, dates, facts, etc. "Columbus discovered America in 1492" is a fact and cannot be copyrighted. "In fourteen hundred and ninety-two//Columbus sailed the ocean blue" is "creative" and can be copyrighted. But the individual "indexable" terms (e.g., Columbus, 1492, ocean blue) are not copyrightable and can certainly be indexed, if one wishes. As for Star Trek, the name/character"James T. Kirk" cannot be copyrighted (trademark, however, is another issue) nor can the titles of various episodes, names of other characters, etc. be copyrighted. And am willing to bet that the first Star Trek concordance was compiled by a fan (or some clever entrepreneur), not anyone associated with the show. Think also of bibliographies on various subjects and price guides (to (first editions, mysteries, cookbooks, films, etc.), no one needed "permission" to quote author, title, publishing information, etc. because none of that stuff can be copyrighted to begin with. Sam Andrusko *** I wrote "at present" because there was an attempt at legislation this past year by large commercial firms, esp. database firms, to allow them to copyright facts (e.g., baseball statistics), but I assume they did not cough up enough money to their favorite congress"people" because it failed to pass Congress. Stay tuned. Am sure they will try again. I believe such protection for databases has become legal in Europe though. Am curious as to how the Supreme Court will rule if it becomes law here. Further thoughts on Star Trek--granted once something becomes a huge hit, owners may threaten and fuss at anyone making money off of "their" product, but (IMHO!) I don't think they would win in court (that is, a suit concerning some sort of concordance or index to the show). And I do recall (vaguely) that years ago a group of genealogists interested in indexing the obits from the New York Times were scared off when the Times threatened them with copyright violation, but I firmly believe such a suit would not have been successful, but who wants to take on the New York Times? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 03:59 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >I call the Copyright office in Washington and she wasn't much help. She was >> >questioning me as to why I would have thought it would be illegal to do so. > > In other words, she seems to be saying it is ok and is wondering >why you thought otherwise, no? > >> Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek >> novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star >> Trek folks would have something to say about that. > >Aiyaiyai, didn't we go through this a few months ago? It is not a >violation of copyright to index, summarize, or abstract another work. > From the U.S. Copyright office at http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ01.html#wci: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following: To reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords; To prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work; To distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending; To perform the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works; To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- I think the point about authorizing derivative works is right on target. A Star Trek index would clearly be a derivative work, would it not? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: "computer music" Along the lines of Elsa's new lyrics to Beatles songs...This variation on Gilbert & Sullivan's "I am the very model of a modern major-general" was sent to me the same day by a friend. I thought the computer folks might enjoy it. --Kara Pekar >I've built a better model than the one at Data General >For data bases vegetable, animal, and mineral >My OS handles CPUs with multiplexed duality; >My PL/1 compiler shows impressive functionality. >My storage system's better than magnetic core polarity, >You never have to bother checking out a bit for parity; >There isn't any reason to install non-static floor matting; >My disk drive has capacity for variable formatting. > >I feel compelled to mention what I know to be a gloating point: >There's lots of room in memory for variables floating-point, >Which shows for input vegetable, animal, and mineral >I've built a better model than the one at Data General. > > -- Steve Levine, "A Computer Song" (To the tune of > "Modern Major General", from "Pirates of Penzance", > by Gilbert & Sullivan) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:44:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 07:13 PM 11/9/1997 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: >I think the point about authorizing derivative works is right on target. A >Star Trek index would clearly be a derivative work, would it not? That's an interesting question, Dick, since Nancy M. states clearly (and it is also my understanding) that an index [to anything, as far as I can determine, Star Trek materials included] is copyrightable in and of itself. It IS a derivative work in a way, but apparently it has its own copyright protection. I really believe it is somewhat off-track to concentrate on something like Star Trek, because I'm certain the name itself is trademarked in some way. You can't just produce your own Star Trek mugs, watches, T shirts, etc., without getting permission from the owners of the rights (and probably you'll pay a hefty commission). I think you could produce an index to Star Trek TV episodes, movies, novels, etc., and get around that problem, because an index is a separate work. You'd just have to figure out what to call it so as not to violate the ownership of the Star Trek name. It would cloud the issue less, IMO, to think about a work like _Moby Dick_ or _The Forsyte Saga_, where we know that the title is not owned by some entity and they aren't profiting by licensing its use. Then we could consider the actual issues of making an index for that work and avoid the other complexities involved in trade name ownership. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:02:58 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gillian Lonergan Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <879138478.1411400.0@listserv.cuny.edu> Just a though on the idea of indexing out of copyright books. How do you cope with the fact that there are so many different editions of popular books produced when they come out of copyright? In my experience, they all have different pagination - if you publish an index using the edition of one particular publisher, does that make it derivative? Gillian Lonergan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 11:44 PM 11/9/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 07:13 PM 11/9/1997 -0500, Richard Evans wrote: > >>I think the point about authorizing derivative works is right on target. A >>Star Trek index would clearly be a derivative work, would it not? > >That's an interesting question, Dick, since Nancy M. states clearly (and it >is also my understanding) that an index [to anything, as far as I can >determine, Star Trek materials included] is copyrightable in and of itself. >It IS a derivative work in a way, but apparently it has its own copyright >protection. > >I really believe it is somewhat off-track to concentrate on something like >Star Trek, because I'm certain the name itself is trademarked in some way. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't just say that it's OK to publish an index without consulting with the author. It depends to some degree on the work being indexed. Feel free to substitute whatever popular series you like. Patricia Cornwell mysteries, whatever. Sure, you can *index* them without author permission, but you can't *sell* the index without permission. Check out any of the three copyright URLs posted earlier. I will happily concede to an appropriate cite. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In a message dated 97-11-09 19:38:54 EST, you write: << To prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work; >> Thanks Dick, I don't think this could be any plainer but I looked up the word derivative in my thesauraus..hoping it meant something different from what I thought it did....these are the synonyms it listed: outgrowth, offspring, by-product, offshoot, descendant, spin-off, branch, limb. At first glance I felt like it was refering to a sequel of the book but then "by-product" sold me enough so I think until a copyright lawyer tells me different I think the safest thing to do is get permission. An index would diffinately be a by product based upon a copyrighted work. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes I've been watching with interest all the mails on this subject. My caution to anyone thinking of this is to talk to a copyright attorney. Even if you have permission of the author, the publisher might feel differently. In the legal area, page numbers have been considered copyrighted and couldn't be used without permission. While a work may be a by-product of another work, how this is treated in the law is something that cannot be determined without a legal opinion about a specific circumstance. (I have been through this on one of our products.) Copyright law has not kept pace with the electronic media either. Since these issues are decided in different Federal District courts, conflicting decisions have been handed down as well and the Supreme Court has not seen nor resolved all this yet. I've read articles about various scenarios including the judge's opinion and it is very hard for laymen to appreciate the nuances that make the judge decide one way or the other on an issue. On a positive note, I'd love to see this activity occur and be allowed to occur freely. Good luck to all who pursue it! Dave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:58:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: ASI Washington, DC Chapter meeting Oops sorry I posted that last message to Pilar to the whole list!! I must have gotten discomglobulated in the cutting and pasting step. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Since this is such a fuzzy area, why not simply make a pitch of the publisher of the fictional work/series you want to index? Tell the publisher that you AS A READER would be willing to BUY such an index, and that since none exists, you are willing to produce such for a fee. Enclose a sample with a quote for the work. And conclude with, "If you are unwilling to hire me to produce this index, I am requesting your approval to self-publish and sell the index independently." If necessary, you could offer to pay THEM a royalty for every copy sold and price your work accordingly. In the best scenario you will end up with a paying job; at worst you have the publisher's reply to use in discussing your options with a copyright lawyer. Carolyn Weaver In a message dated 97-11-10 10:43:14 EST, you write: << Even if you have permission of the author, the publisher might feel differently. In the legal area, page numbers have been considered copyrighted and couldn't be used without permission. >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:02:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 11:25 AM 11/10/1997 -0500, Carolyn Weaver wrote: >Since this is such a fuzzy area, why not simply make a pitch of the publisher >of the fictional work/series you want to index? Tell the publisher that you >AS A READER would be willing to BUY such an index, and that since none >exists, you are willing to produce such for a fee. Enclose a sample with a >quote for the work. And conclude with, "If you are unwilling to hire me to >produce this index, I am requesting your approval to self-publish and sell >the index independently." If necessary, you could offer to pay THEM a >royalty for every copy sold and price your work accordingly. In the best >scenario you will end up with a paying job; at worst you have the publisher's >reply to use in discussing your options with a copyright lawyer. This is how I would approach the situation. First, as somebody else pointed out, there are many editions of popular works of fiction, and an index depends on page numbers as locators, so you'd almost HAVE to pin your work to a specific edition (and update it regularly). Second, I believe the cooperation of the author and publisher is extremely helpful, even if it's not essential, in producing a quality index. Finally, Hans Wellisch casts some additional (and detailed) light on this whole subject. For those of you who have his book handy and are interested, pages 58-63 are of interest. Basically, if one compiles an index as an employee of a publisher, that index is not copyrightable in any case (this does NOT include independent contractors--freelance indexers). An indexer who is commissioned by an author or publisher to compile an index (that's most of us) cannot automatically claim a copyright to that work...BUT he or she may obtain the copyright if there is an explicit statement in the contract stipulating that the author and/or publisher waives copyright to the index. Wellisch goes on to say, "Once this has been successfully achieved, an index can then presumably be considered as a 'compilation' or 'derivative work', whose author (that is, the indexer) can claim copyright in it according to Section 103(b) and 106(2). Section 103(b) states that: 'The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such a work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work... The copyright in such work is independent of...any copyright protection in the preexisting material.'" There's a lot more food for thought here, but my impression is that it IS possible, though complex and somewhat difficult, to copyright an index. Still, it would be wise to proceed with caution and to consult an intellectual property attorney, particularly if you're planning on doing a full-fledged index to some popular work. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:30:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 05:51 PM 11/8/97 -0600, you wrote: > Regarding the comment about publishing an unsolicited index if the >author of the original work is dead - don't forget about the heirs! >Recently there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about Maslow's >classic theories about management. The article mentioned that the book was >out of print but was available on the Internet. It turned out that an >individual, acting by himself, typed most of the text onto the Web so >others could read and learn from it. He didn't ask for permission. Then >one of Maslow's heirs got wind of the Web page and demanded thousands of >dollars in compensation for the 'piracy.' The poor man is on the verge of >financial ruin just from the legal fight. > It seems intuitively wrong that an index can be a stand alone, >creative work. It would not exist without the original piece of fiction or >nonfiction. You can't claim sole intellectual right to the content when it >is dependent on some one else's creativity. > > >Susan Hernandez It also might serve to prove that some copyright holders can be stone stupid. If I were the Maslow's heir in this scenario, I'd be thanking the web-pager for showing me the way to the market and trying to strike a deal to charge FUTURE royalties from the web copy; not ripping a hole in what was likely a slim purse to begin with. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes At 09:39 AM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >I think until a copyright lawyer tells me different I think the safest thing >to do is get permission. An index would diffinately be a by product based >upon a copyrighted work. That is the only point I was trying to make. On the one hand, Nancy M. seems to say it is OK, on the other the copyright office seems to say it is not. That conflict alone dictates a ruling by the experts. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:36:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steven Sawula Subject: Changing My E-Mail address Greetings: I just wanted to ask if there is a simple way to change the email address at which I get the Index-L messages at....or is it necessary to unsubscribe and then resubscribe? I would like to receive the messages at my Juno address. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:51:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Dick wrote: > Consider this example: You produce an index for a series of Star Trek > novels and market it as a Star Trek concordance. I would expect the Star > Trek folks would have something to say about that. They certainly would! "Captain, an unidentified and unauthorized index has entered Federation space. It's not responding to our hails, sir." "Red Alert! Raise shields! Mr. Worf, fire lawsuits at will!" (Sorry -- I couldn't resist. ;-D ) On a more serious note, consider this also: Characters, fictional places, and (in the case of science fiction and fantasy) societies, groups, races, and species are all part of the original creation, and many authors would consider them to be proprietary material covered by copyright. I know of at least one sf/fantasy author who will not allow anyone to publish or in any way distribute fiction written in that author's world without permission, even if the story does not make use of actual characters from the author's own books. The same stricture exists for games, etc., set in or based upon this author's work. I understand that some people who have knowingly or unknowingly the author's permission-first policy have been contacted by the author's lawyers, ordering them to cease and desist or face legal action. Not all authors are this protective of the products of their creativity -- but they have the right to be. A fiction writer's livelihood is the fruits of his/her creativity. Other people shouldn't (and probably don't) have the right to capitalize on their works without permission. Please don't think I'm against indexing fiction. I'm all for it; I can think of several series off the top of my head which might benefit from a good index, or an index/encyclopedia combination. I do believe that one ought to seek and receive permission from the author before making such an index or companion volume public (either by self-publishing on the net or on paper, or by offering it to a publisher.) Seeking such permission shows both respect for the author and a healthy desire to avoid lawsuits. :-D Obviously, this does not apply to the indexing of classic fiction which is no longer under copyright. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:24:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes Sonsie wrote: > The term, "Star Trek," may very well be copyrighted or trademarked, Dick, > which means that the owner of that mark can control the use of the term. IMO > this is a different situation from indexing, say, "1001 Arabian Nights," and > publishing the index/concordance. > > What I'm trying to say is that you've brought up what appears to be a > trademark issue, which is different from the issue of whether or not a > person can index a work not his own and then sell the index. I think THAT > issue is pretty clear-cut...you can do it, so long as you do not affect the > original author's ability to profit from his or her work. > The term "Star Trek" does have trademark status; I believe the term "Enterprise" is also trademarked or copyrighted when applied to a starship of the style and design used in the various series. But the entire concept on which the shows are based, the Star Trek universe, is copyrighted, and that copyright is owned either by Paramount or by Roddenberry's estate or both. If I understand correctly, any of the actors who played in the series could write a book about their experiences, using the characters' names, the ships' names, and the name of the show, without violating trademark or copyright. (Just as we can write about going to McDonald's without violating its trademark.) But if someone were to write an unsolicited Star Trek novel -- even one which uses none of the recurring or incidental characters from any of the series -- and that person were to publish the novel without permission from Paramount and/or Roddenberry's estate, I've been told they would be in legal trouble for copyright violation. (The publisher of the Star Trek novels might get pretty peeved, too, since I think they have an exclusive contract for the novels with Paramount.) It comes down to what Sonsie said about "affecting the original author's ability to profit from his or her work". Given a fiction book (say, a Star Trek novel or a short story "spun off" from a best-selling author's novel), the author could argue that the additional story takes away some of the demand for more of the author's own work; that the story's plot interferes with a plotline the author him/herself intended to pursue in a further work; etc. In other words, the author (and their legal advisors) could make a pretty good case that your story does, in fact, affect their ability to profit from their work. Could the same case be made for an index? I think it could, if the author was considering producing such a work, or a similar work such as a companion encyclopedia, at some time in the future. Even if the author can't prove that intent, they can still say, "Ah, but now I don't have the *option* to do an index, do I? Therefore, my right to profit has been affected." The letter of the law may suggest that an indexer has the right to create and market an index with or without the author's permission. In practice, though, I still think you could be looking at a lawsuit -- a lawsuit you might very well lose. At the least, you could end up spending a lot of money to fight it in court. Common sense, as well as the ethics Sonsie mentioned, suggest that receiving permission first is the wiser and safer course before indexing any [fictional] work still under copyright. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:25:45 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Indexing espionage In-Reply-To: <199711062333.PAA23128@pacific.net> Thank you all for your responses to what I consider to be a perplexing problem. Due to the time elapsed, my original post is appended. Kara wrote, regarding the use of "alleged": >after all, if you are indexing a book which >claims the existence of psychic phenomena, are you going to put "alleged" >after every entry because they are unproved and unaccepted by the >scientific establishment? ("telepathy, alleged"; "telekinesis, alleged"; >etc.) The point I'm making is that this is a human being who is being accused of treason, one of the highest crimes. (Remember, Hiss's conviction was for perjury, not treason.) In the law, if an accusation is not proved, it is an allegation. In print, if something is not proved (i.e. conviction obtained), one must refer to the "alleged crime," in order to 1) avoid being the subject of litigation for libel, and 2) rendering a mistrial in certain cases. Hence my question. Not because I fear litigation, particularly, but because I would wish to treat such a thing as sensitively as I could. Best, Victoria I originally wrote: I've just discovered an interesting passage in a review in ^The Nation^ (Nov. 3) by Victor Navasky of a book called ^Perjury: The Hiss-Chambers Case^, by Allen Weinstein. Weinstein's book is an updated version of his 1978 edition, and Navasky, as a reporter then, had raised issues about the author's sources. Large and substantial issues. He reviews those issues and talks about new ones. One of the new ones is about the index. Background: Recently published by the U.S. government, a 1945 cable from Moscow to its U.S. agents referred to a person code-named "Ales". In an unsigned footnote to the cable dated twenty-four years after the original cable was sent, it is stated that Ales is "probably Alger Hiss." Navasky questions this and shows additional evidence why this is probably not true, that Hiss was not "Ales". Navasky finally writes: "Yet Allen Weinstein is so intent on finding certainty where the record exudes ambiguity that he even engages in argument-by-index. Look up 'Ales' in the index of the new edition and one finds '"ALES" (pseud. of Hiss)'." [p.16] My comment is that I'm a strong believer in following the text when I index. The author claims Ales is Hiss. It is not proved. Unfortunately I can see myself doing what that indexer (assuming it was not Weinstein) did, possibly in all innocence. Do others agree that the parenthetical statement should have read (alleged pseu. of Hiss)? I'm not asking about the political truth. I'm asking, where does an indexer draw the line in such matters? Does the indexer need to feel convinced by the author's arguments? Or does the indexer follow the author's statements as the guide? I've never indexed a book in which someone is making a case against another person, although I am trained in international relations and law indexing and would like to eventually. My only guide is this: in law indexing I was taught not to state the law, but to describe it. How have some of you handled cases like this? vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:11:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Publishers who don't pay Sometimes even a signed contract isn't enough. I just want to caution everyone about a press in Mississippi, called Genesis Press Inc. Anybody know a good lawyer in the Milwaukee area? BTW, do any of you happen to know whether ASI keeps (or has considered keeping) a list of publishers who pay late or not at all (or otherwise screw us)? Wouldn't that be a great service? I suppose it might be a legal nightmare for ASI, though. And I s'pose the same problem would arise if we tried to include such a list on the Index-L FAQ? Just thinking out loud. Sigh, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:55:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Publishers who don't pay In-Reply-To: > BTW, do any of you happen to know whether ASI keeps (or has considered > keeping) a list of publishers who pay late or not at all (or otherwise > screw us)? Wouldn't that be a great service? I suppose it might be a legal > nightmare for ASI, though. And I s'pose the same problem would arise if we > tried to include such a list on the Index-L FAQ? Just thinking out loud. I doubt ASI keeps such a list, because maintaining a list & responding to queries about such a list would be a huge task.... However, if folks want to get the word out about certain publishers, they could follow Carol's example and post to INDEX-L. Then folks who want to "check" on a potential client can search the INDEX-L archives for the client's name. That makes it a quick & painless step to check out potential clients. And puts the control in the hands of those concerned: indexers who want to report on negative experiences with clients, and indexers who want to avoid dealing with such clients. That kind of information-sharing is what the 'net & listservs are all about. 8-) Thanks for the idea, Carol! Remember, to get to the INDEX-L archives, check the INDEX-L FAQ mailed to all subscribers periodically (and just recently), or visit the ASI web site (http://www.well.com/user/asi/). -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:11:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers who don't pay In-Reply-To: <199711111444.JAA26505@beavis.inetdirect.net> >BTW, do any of you happen to know whether ASI keeps (or has considered >keeping) a list of publishers who pay late or not at all (or otherwise >screw us)? Wouldn't that be a great service? I suppose it might be a legal >nightmare for ASI, though. And I s'pose the same problem would arise if we >tried to include such a list on the Index-L FAQ? Just thinking out loud. > >Sigh, >Carol Roberts Carol, that's a great idea. Sorry to hear about your problem, but I'll bet it is more common than we realize individually. What kind of publisher is Genesis Press? --Elsa Kramer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:11:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Mulvany Subject: Copyright Law Pertaining to Indexes Copyright for indexes is a murky topic because there is no case law. Dave Ream's suggestion to consult an attorney is a good suggestion. However, all you will get is the opinion of the attorney. One my first official meetings as ASI President was with the Chief Examiner and her staff at the U.S. Copyright Office. I brought along a booklet that was an index to a programming manual. The index was written independently by an indexer. The index was published independently; that is, it was not published by the publisher of the original programming manual. I asked if the indexer could register this index for copyright protection. Without hesitation, the answer was Yes. Again, given that there is no case law, all I got out of that meeting was the opinion of the Copyright Office. Although their opinion has a great deal of weight, it is not law. We discussed several other matters -- they consider indexes "compilations" not "derivative works". You can find more information about this at: http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/copyrite.htm Sonsie posts the following from Hans Wellisch' book, Indexing from A to Z. I disagree with the last part: > Finally, Hans Wellisch casts some additional (and detailed) light on this > whole subject. For those of you who have his book handy and are interested, > pages 58-63 are of interest. Basically, if one compiles an index as an > employee of a publisher, that index is not copyrightable in any case (this > does NOT include independent contractors--freelance indexers). An indexer > who is commissioned by an author or publisher to compile an index (that's > most of us) cannot automatically claim a copyright to that work...BUT he or > she may obtain the copyright if there is an explicit statement in the > contract stipulating that the author and/or publisher waives copyright to > the index. Current Copyright Law is very clear about copyright protection and works made for hire. Authors give up their ownership of copyright in the following ways: works written as an employee works made for hire by specifically transferring rights Specially commissioned works such as indexes can be works made for hire if AND ONLY IF both parties agree to that in writing. Lacking a written agreement, the index cannot be considered a work made for hire. This is not a vague, debatable point. Since so many indexers work without written agreements, the indexes produced cannot be considered works for hire. Therefore, copyright remains with the author. I disagree with Hans. Unless one of the three situations listed above exists, copyright automatically resides with the author. It is the publisher who must obtain the rights in writing. Since I rarely want to retain copyright, I use the this clause in my indexing agreements: "Upon full payment of the invoice, I transfer copyright to XYZ Publisher, Inc." More than once, this language has helped get some invoices paid! Now back to what I think was the original question: can you write and publish an index to pre-existing material? In my opinion, yes you can. There are many examples of this. Does anyone remember the OsDex? It was an index to all the unindexed manuals that were shipped with Osborne CP/M computers. At the ASI meeting in Winston-Salem, reference was made to a book that was an index to several cookbooks. I'm sorry but I can't remember the title. There are more examples when we look at periodicals -- indexes to computer journals, gardening magazines, database indexes. -nancy Nancy Mulvany Books for Indexers ==> http://www.well.com/~nmulvany ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:31:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Changing My E-Mail address I think the unsubscribe and subscribe messages must be received from the email address to which the listserve messages are/will be sent. If that's true, then it will be necessary to unsubscribe from your current email address and resubscribe from your new one. Joel Steven Sawula wrote: > > Greetings: > I just wanted to ask if there is a simple way to change the email address at > which I get the Index-L messages at....or is it necessary to unsubscribe and > then resubscribe? I would like to receive the messages at my Juno address. > > Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:38:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Publishers You might want to be cautious regarding posting negative info about publishers on Index-L. If anything you post causes a publisher to lose business (even if what you say is true!) you could be opening yourself up to a lawsuit. John Sullivan (am I paranoid, or what?!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:59:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Publishers At 10:38 AM 11/11/1997 EST, John R. Sullivan wrote: >You might want to be cautious regarding posting negative info about >publishers on Index-L. If anything you post causes a publisher to lose >business (even if what you say is true!) you could be opening yourself up to >a lawsuit. No, I don't think you're being paranoid...you're being smart! This question has come up before, and as I recall the solution that was proposed (and that sounded reasonable to me) was that a person who has had a bad experience with a publisher post a note (as Carol did) offering additional information privately about a specific problem or situation. Lest we forget, a number of list members are employed by publishers...this isn't a private, freelance-indexers-only list (though it is easy to forget that every now and again). And finally, what if an indexer unfairly (and publicly) blasts a publisher on the list? If the publisher isn't around to respond, we don't get both sides of the story. Here's an idea...if you're taking a job from a publisher you haven't worked with before, ask on-list that people contact you privately with any information they may have about that company. And if you've suffered through the Experience from Hell with a firm, write a note to the list offering information about your experience with that company--in private correspondence. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:38:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JEAN JAUNER FREDERIC LIST ADDRESS JEAN FREDERIC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Publishers I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, too). I have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to email me privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a publisher), I very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:53:27 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: Publishers A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back them up. Just my 0.01 worth. JK LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post > negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, too). I > have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to email me > privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you > open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of > the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a publisher), I > very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of > course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, > he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. > > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply But who has more money to get through a suit? Even if you end up winning, you might end up losing lots of money and time and peace of mind defending a suit. Being right might not be worth it.... Mark >>> Julie Knoeller 11/11/97 01:53pm >>> A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back them up. Just my 0.01 worth. JK LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post > negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, too). I > have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to email me > privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you > open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of > the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a publisher), I > very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of > course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, > he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. > > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711111857.NAA19921@beavis.inetdirect.net> >A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, >could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual >problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? >These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back >them up. Just my 0.01 worth. > >JK I agree, Julie -- as long as I was prepared for the expense of litigation. But I would never hesitate to talk about a nonpayment, particularly because I would already have filed a claim against the company by the time I decided to tell others about the problem. That's the beauty of having a written contract. And if you are sued for libel, the publisher must prove it. I think that would be hard to do. I am waiting (and waiting) on a payment now from a subsidy publisher who has paid promptly in the past but seems to be going through a weird phase. I haven't filed in small claims court yet, so I won't name the publisher yet. I stll hold out some hope. At 120 days, I'll file ... and then I'll tell you all about it without any fear of a libel suit. --efk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Publishers John, I'm also paranoid about posting adverse comments about a company (or a named individual) online. Except I prefer to think of it as being prudent. I would not hesitate to describe a problem situation online or to provide input into an ongoing discussion; but in an Index-L posting I would NEVER include the organization's name or highly specific information that might let people guess the name, and I would hesitate to do so even in private email. I will NOT mention names on a medium that may be archived, reposted God only knows where, inadvertently delivered to the wrong person -- or supoenaed in a court trial. So if anybody wants to know the name the name of the publisher who tried (unsuccessfully) to stiff me several years ago, they're going to have to invest in a phone call or corner me at a meeting; I'm not leaving a paper (or electronic) trail that could come back to haunt me. Rule of thumb: Private email isn't! Carolyn Weaver In a message dated 97-11-11 11:46:09 EST, you write: << You might want to be cautious regarding posting negative info about publishers on Index-L. If anything you post causes a publisher to lose business (even if what you say is true!) you could be opening yourself up to a lawsuit. John Sullivan (am I paranoid, or what?!) >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:27:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply You may very well be right, and one might also consider that a publisher could turn the tables and slander an indexer who is too much trouble. Even if what someone says about you is proven false, it can cause a lot of damage anyway, particularly to a freelancer who is so dependent on reputation. But I just hate the idea of being bullied... Julie Mark Dempsey wrote: > > But who has more money to get through a suit? Even if you end up > winning, you might end up losing lots of money and time and peace of > mind defending a suit. Being right might not be worth it.... > > Mark > > >>> Julie Knoeller 11/11/97 01:53pm >>> > A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, > could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual problems, > or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? > These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back > them up. Just my 0.01 worth. > > JK > > LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > > > I have to agree with Sonsie and John. I would be very reluctant to post > > negative comments about publishers and packagers (must include them, > too). I > > have had some problems with various entities, and if anyone cares to > email me > > privately, I'd be glad to tell you. But, to publicly blast them.... well, you > > open yourself up to libel and other problems. In fact, once, in the heat of > > the moment (during an infuriating contractual argument with a > publisher), I > > very rashly told him I'd put the word out on him with freelancers. He, of > > course, responded that if he'd heard that I did and it hurt his business, > > he'd sue me. Stupid me for losing my professionalism. > > > > Leslie > > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:28:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Publishers As with the copyright issue recently discussed here, it's best to get an accurate legal opinion on the possibility of being sued as the result of bashing someone in a public forum. However, it's my understanding that the truth (or lack thereof) of whatever you post doesn't necessarily come into play. Libel is defined as: "A written, printed, or pictorial statement that damages a person by defaming his character or reputation, damaging him in his occupation, or exposing him to public ridicule." It's also my understanding that something could be considered libelous *even if it's true*. I think just about anything goes in "private" messages (is there such a thing anymore?) between or among list members, but airing someone's dirty laundry on Index-L could lead to trouble. And you can believe me, because I never lie and I'm always right. ;) John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:49:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711111933.OAA27404@beavis.inetdirect.net> Rule of thumb: > Private email isn't! > >Carolyn Weaver > Quite right! Scarcely different from the in-box on your desk, and much like a cordless phone. Never say anything you would not want to hear read in court. --efk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:12:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Publishers At 02:28 PM 11/11/1997 EST, John R. Sullivan wrote: >As with the copyright issue recently discussed here, it's best to get an >accurate legal opinion on the possibility of being sued as the result of >bashing someone in a public forum. > >However, it's my understanding that the truth (or lack thereof) of whatever >you post doesn't necessarily come into play. Libel is defined as: > >"A written, printed, or pictorial statement that damages a person by defaming >his character or reputation, damaging him in his occupation, or exposing him >to public ridicule." > >It's also my understanding that something could be considered libelous *even >if it's true*. Here's what the Associated Press Libel Manual has to say: Libel is injury to reputation. Words, pictures or cartoons that expose a person to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induces an ill opinion of a person is libelous. . . . THERE IS ONLY ONE COMPLETE AND UNCONDITIONAL DEFENSE TO A CIVIL ACTION FOR LIBEL: THAT THE FACTS STATED ARE PROVABLY TRUE. [Emphasis added.] Truth, therefore, is the ultimate defense against a charge of libel. If somebody here wrote, for public consumption, that he had a contract with XYZ Publishing to produce an index, that he had turned in the index on time and in proper condition, and that XYZ had refused to pay his bill, or had held up payment for an unreasonable amount of time, this would not constitute libel (assuming that the facts are true as stated). If, OTOH, the indexer wrote that John Doe at XYZ was an SOB who deliberately and maliciously refused payment of the freelancer's bill...that might very well constitute libel. It's an opinion, not a fact, and certainly not provable. It could be a computer malfunction that kept the check from going out, or it could have been lost in the mail, and so forth. A statement of fact, without any negative comments, cannot be libel (as long as the facts are accurate). I'd still think it would be smart to NOT make such statements on a public forum, unless you are prepared to prove, in a court of law, their truth. Most of us would probably not want to get embroiled in such a situation unless we've already let ourselves in for it, so to speak, by having sued the publisher for our money. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:12:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Publishers At 02:49 PM 11/11/1997 -0500, Elsa F. Kramer wrote: >Quite right! Scarcely different from the in-box on your desk, and much >like a cordless phone. Never say anything you would not want to hear read >in court. While I realize that system operators may read your mail (though they claim they never do), I don't believe it is subpoenable in a court of law. And while it may be possible for somebody to ferret out email that you've sent privately, I can't imagine a publisher with the interest (let alone power) to do this to a small-time operator whose annoyance factor isn't much bigger than a gnat's. IMO, this is a little bit like worrying about sending credit card payments through the mail (they could get stolen) or listening for mysterious clicks on your hard-wired phone to see if you're being tapped. After all, even a phone call can be monitored--legally or not! And mail can be stolen or read by the wrong person, and private in-person conversations may take place where somebody could overhear them or tape them. Your trash isn't safe, your hard drive is accessible to anybody with the expertise and time to engage in highly complex data-recovery routines, shredded documents can be reconstructed, somebody could be watching you through a high-powered telescope, and so forth. At some point, I just have to accept the limitations of the universe and trust that good-sense precautions will have to cover the situation. I can't completely safeguard any personal information or correspondence or conversations, so I'm going to have to live with the way-out-there possibility that somebody is fascinated enough by my private correspondence, conversations, or paper/e-mail to want to track them down. I'm not disputing the fact that somebody, somewhere, can access your email...just that the likelihood is very small of it ever happening in the kinds of situations we are discussing. And even if it were done, the results would not be admissible in court...and would probably land the person in big legal trouble for having violated various privacy laws. Just my two cents' worth... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:10:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Claudia M. Caruana" Subject: Re: Publishers FYI: The American Society of Journalists and Authors publishes=20 > a newsletter, restricted to its members, that lists the names=20 > of periodicals that pay promptly, pay slowly, edit copy=20 > thoughtfully, treat writers poorly, etc. Interested parties might want=20 > to contact the executive director, Alexandra Cantor Owens at 75227.1650@ > compuserve.com for the ASJA point of view on this issue. C. Caruana =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:17:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711112026.PAA08600@beavis.inetdirect.net> Sonsie, I agree with you -- I don't worry about what I say very much. But I have written articles for law and business magazines about the amazing and various ways individuals' "private" email messages *were* retrieved and used against them in private and civil actions. It is more common than you might think. But it would in no way deter me from telling others if a publisher had stiffed me on a contract. As you pointed out, if the publisher wanted to sue me for saying that, it would have to prove that what I said wasn't true. --efk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:26:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply THERE IS ONLY ONE COMPLETE AND UNCONDITIONAL DEFENSE TO A CIVIL ACTION FOR LIBEL: THAT THE FACTS STATED ARE PROVABLY TRUE. [Emphasis added.] Truth, therefore, is the ultimate defense against a charge of libel. If somebody here wrote, for public consumption, that he had a contract with XYZ Publishing to produce an index, that he had turned in the index on time and in proper condition, and that XYZ had refused to pay his bill, or had held up payment for an unreasonable amount of time, this would not constitute libel (assuming that the facts are true as stated). > Ah, my dear, but you underestimate the ability of us lawyers to pick nits and generally make life miserable. I can hear the issues now: What constitutes "proper condition"? What constitutes an "unreasonable amount of time" What is "unreasonable"? Trust me, cases have been tried over much lesser issues, and these questions alone would be enough for the case to proceed to a jury trial. Mark made an excellent point earlier: The real question is who has the financial ability to drag this thing out in court. In a civil jury trial for libel, you could expect to spend well into the five figures defending yourself, even if you ultimately win, and not every court system allows you to recover your attorney's fees and costs for something like that. Incidentally, truth isn't ALWAYS a defense. In certain instances, the truth of the matter is irrelevant if the libel was done for a malicious purpose or involved personal or private facts. Nothing is concrete in the law. So anyway, prudence seems to be the key word. Don't say anything that you don't want to see subpoenaed! -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:04:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Publishers Why not create something like a Better Business Bureau for Indexers. If the Better Business Bureau can do it why can't we. Susan Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:04:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL CHAT - LURKING NEIGHBOR - TYPICAL INDEXER'S DAY The Aol Book indexers' Chat log is available for 11/10/97. E-mail me if you want it. Susan Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:22:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gayle Osburn Subject: Re: Publishers Hi Sonsie: A very common-sense, low-stress assessment of the world we live in. If we choose, we can live our lives consciously ducking from all sorts of horrendous possibilities. If we decide to behave with integrity, state the *facts* in one-on-one situation (ie, email), and someone then decides to come after us, we may suffer our Joan-of-Arc complex but we will have done a service to others and stood up for ourselves. Right On!! (I'm a child of the 60's!) Gayle >I'm not disputing the fact that somebody, somewhere, can access your >email...just that the likelihood is very small of it ever happening in the >kinds of situations we are discussing. And even if it were done, the results >would not be admissible in court...and would probably land the person in big >legal trouble for having violated various privacy laws. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Copyright Law Pertaining to Stand-Alone Indexes In-Reply-To: <199711101311.IAA41412@rs8.loc.gov> Hello, everyone, Was off from work, so was not able to get to the law library to rummage around and do some research. As someone has pointed out there is no case law specifically concerning indexing. However, in rummaging around this morning in the law library, I think some of the reasoning used in a copyright infringement case brought by the Arica Instittue against Helen Palmer and Harper & Row might be germane. The Arica Institute was set up to further the teachings of the Japanese fellow who (among other things) popularized enneagrams a few years ago. Helen Palmer (and Harper Row) published a book on enneagrams and (in part) used passages from Arica Institute publications. Arica sued for copyright infringement and appealed the decision against them. The U.S. Court of Appeals, 2nd District (Southern NY Dist.) ruled against the Arica Institute (case 91-7859) on several grounds, but included the following (my summarization!): "single words and short phrases" did not have the "minimum creativity required for copyright protection." (This harkens back (I think) to the poem I quoted about Columbus: taken as a whole, yes, it is creative and is copyrightable, but when "indexed," that is, taken apart: Columbus, 1492, ocean blue, there is nothing inherently creative in "single words and short phrases." Second, the Fair Use section of the Copyright Law (section 107) allows use of copyrighted material for the "purpose of criticism, comment, scholarship, and research." (And the Appeals Court emphasized how important this exception has always been held). In this case, using text from publications of the Arica Institute (and in three examples they agreed there was a problem, but held it minor) for the purpose of "scholarship" was permissable and did not constitute copyright infringement. I think all of us strongly agree that an index furthers research and scholarship, so (as far as I am concerned), there is no copyright infringement for (as I wrote earlier) indexing, summarizing or abstracting something. QED? Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: Publishers In a message dated 97-11-11 15:41:34 EST, you write: > Libel is injury to reputation. > Words, pictures or cartoons that expose a person to public > hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induces an ill opinion > of a person is libelous. . . . This is off-topic, but what about political cartoons or comedians who poke fun at public figures? They don't seem to get sued for the things they say. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:41:46 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Publishers In-Reply-To: <199711120610.AAA17404@mixcom.mixcom.com> >A publisher couldn't win a suit against you if what you said was true, >could they? For instance, if you relate facts about contractual >problems, or late payments, etc, without attaching value judgements? >These types of things have pretty black-and-white documentation to back >them up. Just my 0.01 worth. That is certainly what I was assuming when I posted. I'm aware of the potential for lawsuits, but what I said was true, so I'll take my chances. A few people did e-mail me privately to get more details. >Don't say anything that you don't want to see >subpoenaed! Unless of course you are willing to take the risk, as I am. Genesis Press would have to be willing to take a risk, too, to sue me for saying they hadn't paid me, given that the contract stipulated that payment was due within 30 days of receipt of the invoice and given that they don't claim to have put the check in the mail or anything like that. Although I do appreciate the concern about lawsuits, and I won't try to tell anyone else what to do, I for one don't intend to keep my mouth shut about any of the following: (a) injustices, (b) improper business practices, and (c) illegal activities. And yes, maybe someday I'll be sued. So be it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:06:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply Public figures are held to a different standard. The hallmark case is New York Times v. Sullivan, and it held that public figures by the nature of their position have to endure character slurs, etc. that would present a cause of action to a private citizen. Public figures have to prove "actual malice" on the part of the speaker (what we colloquially refer to as "Times malice") in order to collect damages, and even then it's not guaranteed. Perhaps the most famous (or infamous) recent case that upheld that standard was Falwell v. Flynt (Jerry Falwell, the evangelist v. Larry Flynt, the publisher of Hustler). It's fascinating watching these discussions unfold here on the list, but I have to say that libel and slander are very fuzzy areas of law-- there aren't many (if any) black and white guidelines stricken in stone. It's all a matter of interpretation, and the interpretation usually changes on a case by case basis. It's just not an area where you can read a few cases and announce solidly either that a) you know what the law is, b) that your actions will or will not be protected, or c) how some future court may rule on your predictions and interpretations. It's one of those areas where the jurisdiction, the judge, the jury and the facts of the specific case will all combine to determine the outcome. That's why I said what I said earlier: A good guideline is to not say anything that you wouldn't want to have repeated to a jury. Sometimes the Golden Rule really is the best standard of behavior! :-) -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:21:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Publishers -Reply At 12:06 PM 11/12/97 -0500, Sharon W. wrote: >Public figures >have to prove "actual malice" on the part of the speaker Remember the infamous "Guilt, guilty, guilty!" Doonesbury "episode" in which Mark Slackmeyer pronounced this verdict on some non-fictional public figure (I think it was John Mitchell) who'd been arraigned but not yet tried in the Watergate scandal. Several newspapers refused to run the strip saying it was against the fine ideals of American justice to pronouce guilt when innocence should be assumed; that Trudeau's opinions carried weight and could create a very ill opinion indeed against Mitchell. Actually, I thought it was a funny strip, and it certainly reflected what loads of people were saying throughout the country. -- LG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:55:21 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "ISKO.conf" Subject: Fifth International ISKO Conference -- Second Call for Papers The International Society For Knowledge Organization FIFTH INTERNATIONAL ISKO CONFERENCE Call for Papers The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) will conduct its fifth International Conference (ISKO 5) in Lille, France, August 25-29 1998. The theme of the conference is : Structures and Relations in Knowledge Organization The conference will focus on the role of relationships and emergent knowledge structures as represented in the human mind, in information handling tools--including classification schemes, thesauri, and indexing systems-and in computers and intelligent/knowledge-based systems. Papers and panels addressing this theme from any of the following perspectives are invited : 1. Theory of knowledge organization : History, paradigms, philosophy, societal aspects, epistemology, division of the sciences. 2. Disciplinary and interdisciplinary approaches to knowledge organization : Formalization of structures and relations in and across linguistics, semiotics, cognitive sciences, computer science, artificial intelligence, etc. 3. Cognitive approaches to knowledge organization : Conceptual entities and inter-concept relations, category formation, classical and non-classical classifications and their use in information organization and retrieval, concept representation in knowledge-based systems, object-oriented analysis and design, types of relations. 4. Design of information systems : Structure and relations in indexing and retrieval languages, design of controlled vocabularies, terminology building and extraction tools, thesauri and metathesauri, multilingual thesauri, standardization of relationships, problems of compatibility. 5. The Comparative approach Common and particular relationships in different knowledge systems. 6. Linguistics in knowledge organization : Structure and relations in sublanguages/special purpose languages/technical writing, discourse structures and relations, intelligent text processing, natural language processing-based systems and their use in knowledge representation and extraction. 7. New technologies for knowledge organization : Structures and relations in the online environment, applications of classical and non-classical structures to computer-based indexing and retrieval systems, search engines, distributed and multilingual knowledge bases. 8. Conceptual modeling : Data modeling, knowledge modeling, user profile modeling. 9. Universals of structures and relations in knowledge organization. Theoreticians, researchers and practitioners in the field of structures and relations in knowledge organization are invited to submit an abstract of 500 to 1000 words by December 8, 1997, to : Widad Mustafa Elhadi ISKO '5 Conference Chair UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles de Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve d'Ascq France Phone: 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 Fax: 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. An international program committee will select the papers for presentation, and authors will be notified by February 9, 1998. The deadline for submission of papers for the printed conference proceedings will be May 4, 1998. Authors are invited to send three printed copies of their abstracts to the above-mentioned address together with an electronic version which must imperatively be sent in an RTF format to the following e-mail address: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. The file's name should be the author's name and not mention "isko" in order to avoid same name file destruction. The abstract must include the authors name, institution , mailing and electronic addresses . Authors should suggest the topic area for which they consider their paper to be best suited. All papers must be in the English language for publication purposes although French-speaking participants wishing to present their papers in French can do so. Simultaneous translation facilities will be available during the conference Organizers : UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique) Universiti Charles De Gaulle Lille III & The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) Conference Chair Widad Mustafa Elhadi, President of ISKO-France UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles De Gaulle Lille III in co-operation with Hanne Albrechtsen, President of ISKO, The Royal School of Library and Information Science, Copenhagen (Denmark) Ingetraut Dahlberg, Former ISKO President(Germany) Rebecca Green, College of Library and Information Services, University of Maryland (USA ) Program Chairs Jacques Maniez, ISKO-France & Widad Mustafa Elhadi, ISKO-France & UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III, (France) Programme Committee Members : Hanne Albrechtsen, President of ISKO, The Royal School of Library and Information Science - Copenhagen (Denmark) Carol Bean, Lister Hill Center for Biomedical Communications, National Library of Medicine (USA) Clare Beghtol, Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto (Canada) Richard Bouchi, Ecole Nationale Supirieure des Sciences de l'Information et des Bibliothhques (ENSSIB), Lyon (France) Gerhard Budin, University of Vienna (Austria) Stiphane Chaudiron, Dipartement des Sciences de l'Information et de la Communication, Universiti Paris 10 (France) Emilia Curras, Information Science Unit, University of Madrid (Spain) Ingetraut Dahlberg, Former ISKO President (Germany) Raya Fidel, University of Washington (USA) Christian Fluhr, Direction de l'Information Scientifique & Technique (DIST-CEA), Saclay (France) Robert Fugmann, ISKO (Germany ) Francisco Javier Garcma Marco, Departamento de Biblioteconomma y Documentacisn, Facultad de Filosofma y Letras, Universidad de Zaragoza (Spain) Winfried Gvdert, Fachhochschule Koeln, Fachbereich Bibliotheks- u. Informationswesen Cologne (Germany) Rebecca Green, College of Library and Information Services, University of Maryland (USA ) Roland Hjerppe, LIBLAB Dept. of Computer and Information Science, Linkvping University (Sweden) Birger Hjorland, The Royal School of Library and Information Science, Copenhagen (Denmark) Yves Jeanneret, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (France) Barbara H. Kwasnik, School of Information Studies, Syracuse University (USA.) Girard Losfeld, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (France) I. C. Mcllwaine, School of Library, Archive & Information Studies, University College London (United Kingdom) Jean-Guy Meunier, Laboratoire d'Analyse Cognitive de l'Information, Universiti du Quibec ` Montrial (Canada) Joan S. Mitchell, OCLC Forest Press, Washington DC (USA) Gigliola Negrini, Consiglio Nazionale Delle Ricerche, Rome (Italy) Hope Olson, Scholl of Library and Information Science, University of Alberta (Canada) Annelise Pejtersen, System Analysis Department, Risx National Laboratory (Denmark) Steven A. Pollitt, Department of Telematics, School of Computing & Mathematics, University of Huddersfield (United Kingdom) Gerhard Riesthuis, Department for Book and Information Science, University of Amsterdam.(Netherlands) M. P. Satija, Department of Library Science, GND University, Amritsar (India ) Paul Solomon, School of Information & Library Science, University of North Carolina (USA) Nancy Willamson, Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto (Canada) Local Arrangement Committee Members : Annette Biguin, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Jirtme Bertonhche, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Danihle Degez, ISKO-France and D & G (Paris) Sylvie Dalbin, ATD (Paris) Madjid Ihadjadene, ENSSIB (Lyon) Christophe Jouis, UFR IDIST, Universiti Charles De Gaulle - Lille III (Lille) Jacques Maniez, ISKO-France (Dijon) ***************************************************************** Widad Mustafa Elhadi UFR IDIST Universite Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 France BP 149 59653 Villeneuve d'ASCQ Tel : 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 fax : 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail : mustafa@univ-lille3.fr ISKO '5 e-mail : isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:07:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Math Textbooks Dear Chris, I saved a message you posted to Index-L in September regarding texts for 9th & 10th grade students. I appreciate your suggestions. I have a couple of questions for you or other Index-Lers. I have been indexing for a year and a half and I finally got my first math textbook to index. :) I am excited because I have a B.A. degree in mathematics and a teaching credential (and now I can make use of them.) I am doing a sixth grade student math textbook and my editor has sent the previous edition as well as a list of new words that she wants included. The problems I see with the old index (and new word list) are 1) It seems written for teachers as well as students. It includes main entries like "Assessment" and "Manipulatives" which I can't imagine a student looking up. 2) Some entries have very long lists of page numbers (20-50) like "Mixed reviews" and "Problem solving practice." These certainly don't fit the indexing standard of five or less page references per entry. They seem useless to even a teacher. Before I call the editor tomorrow(11/13), I would like some input from you. Is there a different set of rules for indexing math textbooks? Are there any written standards for indexing textbooks to which I could refer the editor? Thanks for your input, Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing indexer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:58:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KGarcia549@AOL.COM Subject: Charge for HTML tagging What would one charge for tagging an existing cindex file with HTML codes? Thanks. Kathy Garcia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Math Textbooks In a message dated 97-11-12 16:34:07 EST, you write: << 1) It seems written for teachers as well as students. It includes main entries like "Assessment" and "Manipulatives" which I can't imagine a student looking up. >> I can't answer the other questions, or this one definitively, but it sounds as if this is a TE, Teacher's Edition. That would account for the teacher-oriented material. El-High publishers (and college, for that matter) often publish separate teacher's editions that contain all that teacher material. I'd ask the editor. Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Charge for HTML tagging Kathy-- With the software product HTML/PREP (about $45) from David K. Ream's Leverage Technologies, Inc. (http://www.levtechinc.com/htmlprep.htm), it would take you no time at all to tag. Take a look at the above URL for more information. At 04:58 PM 11/12/97 -0500, KGarcia549@AOL.COM wrote: >What would one charge for tagging an existing cindex file with HTML codes? >Thanks. > >Kathy Garcia > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:48:27 -0800 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: Publishers (and email) Let me relay my experience with email and it's "privacy". My company (a nonprofit city-owned hospital) is in the process of installing a house-wide email system that also has the ability to send/receive email OUTSIDE our corporation. I work in the computer department and some of the items we had to determine prior to implementing the system included the following: - backup rotation. That's right, folks. We back up the email system on a nightly basis. Any email sitting in a user's directory at the time of backup is saved off to tape. Even if the message gets deleted the next day in your individual folder, the backup version remains available and CAN BE RETRIEVED as long as the tape is not overwritten. The number of days in a tape rotation varies. It depends on the philosophy of the organization. We have a tape rotation of three days. That means that backups are kept for the current day, the previous day and the day before that. So, if today is Wednesday, my organization would have a backup for Wednesday, Tuesday and Monday. Sunday's backup would be used for Thursday's rotation and, on Thursday, the Sunday backup would be overwritten. - usage policy. In activating the email system, we require each user to read and sign a policy that specifically tells them that their email may be monitored without their knowledge or permission. We also inform them about the concept of backups and that deleted messages may be able to be retrieved. So, in a nutshell, I agree with the voices that suggest conservative behavior. Email is NOT private. Regards, Lucie Haskins ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:01:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Indexing Online? As a new indexer (reading Nancy M's book, taking the USDA course), the messages below intrigued me. This list is great so I feel comfortable showing my ignorance: Why is Kathy wanting to tag an existing Cindex file with HTML codes? Is the book/index going on the web or an intranet? How/where can I learn more about online (web, et al) indexing? I just completed my first index for an online Help system but have no knowledge regarding other kinds of online indexing. Thanks in advance! Marsha Lofthouse marsha_lofthouse@customer-insight.com Kathy-- With the software product HTML/PREP (about $45) from David K. Ream's Leverage Technologies, Inc. (http://www.levtechinc.com/htmlprep.htm), it would take you no time at all to tag. Take a look at the above URL for more information. At 04:58 PM 11/12/97 -0500, KGarcia549@AOL.COM wrote: >What would one charge for tagging an existing cindex file with HTML codes? >Thanks. > >Kathy Garcia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:09:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Web site referrals? As I cruise around the Internet, looking for publishers and book packagers who might be interested in my services, I notice that a number of indexers have liste