From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:54:25.12 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706B" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:50 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:11:01 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 Ann Cleester Tayor writes: >All consumer griping aside, this trend towards superstores full of vacuous >best sellers, when added to the devastation of the US Gov't Printing >Office, is beginning to look ominous. Apologists say that desktop >publishing and the 'Net will fill in our gaps. How many around here agree >with this? How many people on this list have read all the books published on their fields of interest last year, or the year before, or the year before that? How many of us have read all the classics in those fields published before 1950? If book publishing stopped tomorrow, could you ever catch up on that backlog? Most of the new books published aren't adding anything to human culture - they're just driving out old ones. Not enough books around - surely you jest? What the Internet _will_ do is to centralise information. Instead of fifty publishers in twenty countries all duplicating effort and putting out their own Burmese Cookbooks, say, we can get the best recipes and put them together into an updatable archive that will be available world-wide. One copy of everything - and hopefully the best copy. And people like me, who want to read the stuff that was published last year and the year before, can do so to our hearts' content. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:20:52 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 5 Jun 1997 to 6 Jun 1997 Carol Roberts said: >*I want to quibble with equating low rates with bad results. Although that is frequently true, we shouldn't *assume* that anyone charging a low rate is a bad indexer. True: they may just be a fast indexer, like me. Using the computer to its fullest, I can produce a simple but adequate index for $2 a page and still make an hourly income comparable with what I could earn elsewhere. I can charge a 'standard' rate and hope to make a lot of money from a few indexes or I can cut my rates in the hope of attracting more customers and ending up with more income overall. Why shouldn't I take advantage of the fact that I'm faster than others? Maybe we should all be looking at raising productivity as well as maintaining quality. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:53:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Laughlin Subject: Re: botanical names can you help me getting off this list? I have tried many things but nothing works. Thanks John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:22:09 -0500 Reply-To: rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "rashidah z. hakeem" Subject: Re: Margin settings Howard, I do recommend this course. The provided texts are very comprehensive and the recommended readings are available at the public library for the most part. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "rashidah z. hakeem" Subject: Re: Margin settings Thanks Dawn, I will give it a try. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:15:11 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: TOOLS: OED Online User Survey You might want to fill out this marketing survey. (Just double click on the blue part and the linkage will happen). Martha > >Worth adding your input, I reckon: > >> >> Plans for the OED Online dictionary project are still being made and have >>now reached the stage of market research. It would help to speed up this >>process if you could please take a few minutes of your time to fill in >>the new >>user survey at >> http://www.oed.com/mailinglist.html >>Of particular interest to us is your rating of a list of features that are >>presently implemented in the trial server. Your response will help us to >>determine which of these features should be retained in the published >>version of the server. >> >> We look forward to hearing from you again. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Jeffery Triggs >>Director, the North American Reading Program >>Oxford English Dictionary > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:54:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: botanical names Victoria, here are some more comments on your "new questions": > >. . . the two ^Achillea^ species under discussion are defined as >being the same medicinally, so perhaps I shall include an entry > > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) > ^A. millefolium^ vs. ^A. lanulosa^, 65 > >since some herbalists make a distinction between them and this author >specifically addresses this. . . . > >. . . New Question 1: Since the actual content of the above entry declares them >equal and not opposed, as the term "vs." implies, is there a better term >for this particular comparison? Maybe, > > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) > ^A. millefolium^ and ^A. lanulosa^, compared, 65 > >Compared doesn't strictly address the issue either. Suggestions? (Is my >question clear?) > A lot of interesting issues here! If the text is focused on the distinction between the two species, Elinor's suggestion of "species compared" or "species distinguished" would work well because the species in question are limited to those identified in the qualifier. On the other hand, if the discussion in the text is actually focused on the choice of terms between two species said to be medicinally equivalent ("^Achillea millefolium^" over "^Achillea lanulosa^"), you might be able to sidestep the comparison issue with a sub like "scientific name used in this book". Still, what about using the term "vs." when you need to make a comparison? I'd prefer to use the unequivocal term "vis-a-vis" if it weren't too unfamiliar to too many readers, but lacking such an alternative I use "vs." because even though it does suggest opposition in the sense of "against", it also means opposition in the sense of "as opposed to" (meaning "as compared to"). I've made my peace with "vs." as a dual purpose term -- and I'm very glad to have it. > >New Question 2: But here's another twist: A. millefolium is actually the >preferred species name, used exclusively after the the definition of A. >lanulosa as equal (and later slightly contradicting himself in a caution >against diploid mutations). Would there be any room for switching the two >genus names in the parentheses (thus taking them out of alphabetical order): > > Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^; ^A. lanulosa^) > I would rather put the preferred term first, as you suggested, regardless of alphabetical order -- just as the dictionary lists preferred alternative terms first; and I'd prefer a comma to a semicolon as a separator: Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^, ^A. lanulosa^) > >New Question 3: Maybe I should go back to square one and x-ref A. >millefolium to Yarrow, but actually put the page reference in for A. >lanulosa, and include only ^A. millefolium^ in the parentheses following >Yarrow. > It looks to me like the constructions "^Achillea lanulosa^, 65. ^See also^ Yarrow" and Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^) will not do because all the information under "Yarrow" is about ^Achillea lanulosa^ -- which means that referencing only page 65 is misleading -- and might even confuse some readers about the ^A. lanulosa--A. millefolium^ distinction drawn by the author. I would use a ^See^ reference and include "^A. lanulosa^" in the "Yarrow" qualifier (^after^ "^Achillea millefolium^"). All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:07:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Re[2]: Database Indexer In-Reply-To: <199706052033.NAA00441@mail6> As a database indexer learning on the job is one part of it, another is to have some training in information retrieval. The reason is that understanding how information is retrieved gives excellent insight to how to index. One place to look for some background are organizations like American Society for Information Science (ASIS). Members of this group come from a variety of disciplines and research/articles published in the Journal of the American Society of Information Science (JASIS) include classification research, information retrieval, controlled vocabularies, building thesauri, indexing, abstracting and text analysis to name a few areas. I have been a member for many years and have gained a lot of information from the annual meetings and the journals. ASIS also publishes an annual review (ARIST) that has done a review on subject analysis a couple of times in the last ten years. The home page for ASIS is http://www.asis.org. Abstracts and Table of contents for JASIS and ARIST (Annual Reviews Information Science and Technology can be found at http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/lis Another organization is American Medical Informatics Association which cover indexing/information retrieval in medicine (though not to the exact at ASIS). Their home page (including abstracts from their journal can be found at: http://www.amia.org In my opinion, companies do provide on the job training as it is necessary to learn the indexing philosophy of the organization as well as policy on how certain things are indexed. As for positions, I would say contacting the database producer is one way to find out about open positions. In addition to Medline, there is CINAHL (nursing and allied health www.cinahl.com), Chiroline (Chiropractic literature, this is the old name of the database), SportsDiscus (exercise physiology, athletic training, sports medicine etc). PsychInfo (psychology literature), International Pharmaceutical Abstracts (drugs). Additional some of the allied health professions might have their own database (I think Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy have one) Hope this helps. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Suellen Kasoff wrote: > I, too, am a medical database indexer. Where would you suggest getting a > job "doing it."? I also write abstracts. Do you know of any open medical > freelance database positions? I don't mean to flame you. I know you mean > well. But I find your advice awfully vague. Suellen G. Kasoff > > On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:29:56 -0700 William Perez > writes: > > Hello Maxine and hello Index-L: > > > > As a database indexer, I would say the best way to learn is > > by doing it. Having basic indexing skills is an excellent > > start. For most databases, the indexer applies a controlled > > vocabulary of headings and subdivisions to periodical > > articles. As an indexer, you would need to learn both the > > vocabulary and the subject matter (in your case, medical > > journals). > > > > Some databases also require abstracts, so you may need to > > brush up on your writing skills. > > > > > >______________________________ Reply Separator > >_________________________________ > >Subject: Re: Database Indexer > >Author: "Maxine M. Okazaki" at SMTPGATE > >Date: 6/5/97 12:53 PM > > > > > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >Hi everyone. I'm also a newbie interested in database indexing. > >Could = > >you please post your responses to the list? Also, while we are on the > >= > >topic of database indexing, can anyone recommend how I could learn = > >medical database indexing. I've completed the USDA Basic Indexing = > >Course. Thanks. > > > >Maxine M. Okazaki > >mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu > > > >---------- > >From: Jim Wilson[SMTP:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM] > >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 4:20 AM > >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > >Subject: Re: Database Indexer > > > >Hello all; > > > >As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my > >"free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? > > > >I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can > >someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing differences > >and/or similarities in these types of indexing? > > > >I appreciate your assistance, > > > >Jim > >Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com > >Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... > >but three lefts do! > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:37:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Indexer certification After I asked last week about the SI program for registering indexers, I received some information off-list. Max McMaster kindly sent me a copy of Index-L posts on the topic from last October, giving more details on the SI and AusSI programs. If any ASI members are interested (and, like me, didn't save these posts), I'd be glad to forward them to you if you email me privately. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 At 07:11 PM 6/8/97 +1000, you wrote: >Ann Cleester Tayor writes: > >>All consumer griping aside, this trend towards superstores full of >vacuous >>best sellers, when added to the devastation of the US Gov't Printing >>Office, is beginning to look ominous. Apologists say that desktop >>publishing and the 'Net will fill in our gaps. How many around here >agree >>with this? > >How many people on this list have read all the books published on their >fields of interest last year, or the year before, or the year before that? >How many of us have read all the classics in those fields published before >1950? If book publishing stopped tomorrow, could you ever catch up on that >backlog? Most of the new books published aren't adding anything to human >culture - they're just driving out old ones. Not enough books around - >surely you jest? No I don't jest. Quantity is meaningless. As for not adding to human culture--says who? Who are we going to trust to decide that? As an example, a scientist (I will look up his name, tonight...) put forth the theory of plate tectonics during the 1920s (I could be off by a decade.) His theory was considered "junk" until the 1960s and not widely accepted by scientists until the late 70s-early 80s. What if he hadn't been allowed to publish his junk theory? When it became clear that he might be right, scientists went back and read his full theory and his subsequent work and began refining and building upon his original thoughts. You do have an interesting take on the importance of publishing. No offense meant here--truly, but it seems quite egocentric. From my perspective (academic librarian), new books do not push out last year's models. So what if you didn't read all the new books in the field this year? What if you read only those on "x" subtopic and your colleagues are reading the "y" subtopic? >What the Internet _will_ do is to centralise information. Instead of fifty >publishers in twenty countries all duplicating effort and putting out >their own Burmese Cookbooks, say, we can get the best recipes and put them >together into an updatable archive that will be available world-wide. One >copy of everything - and hopefully the best copy. And people like me, who >want to read the stuff that was published last year and the year before, >can do so to our hearts' content. I've been working on the 'Net for some years and while your scenario is laudable (Librarian's Pipe Dream #1), I don't see it as realistic. There are several assumptions buried within it: Humans can't agree on even simple things--centralize information under whose authority? There are international battles going on now about what can or cannot be accessed by people within certain countries. Publishers are profit driven, who would control the collection of royalties and enforcement of copyrights? Who decides, to use your example, which recipes are the best? >Jonathan. I've got to go, but I would like to debate this further with you. My writing style can come across as terse--please don't interpret this as flaming. Sincerely, Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:05:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Re[2]: Database Indexer Roberta What a nice answer! I am a member of ASIS. I have contacted CINAHL. They want you to be in California. I am looking for a "freelance" indexing job that I can do from my home in Edison, NJ. The same with PsychInfo. They want you in Washington, D.C. Where do I get ahold of the American Medical Informatics Association? or Chiroline? Sports Discus, or International Pharmaceutical Abstracts? Can you give me a city or a Website? Suellen On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:07:00 -0700 Roberta Horowitz writes: >As a database indexer learning on the job is one part of it, another >is to have some training in information retrieval. The reason is that >understanding how information is retrieved gives excellent insight to >how to index. One place to look for some background are organizations >like American Society for Information Science (ASIS). Members of this >group come from a variety of disciplines and research/articles >published >in the Journal of the American Society of Information Science (JASIS) >include >classification research, information retrieval, controlled >vocabularies, >building thesauri, indexing, abstracting and text analysis to name a >few areas. I have been a member for many years and have gained a lot >of information from the annual meetings and the journals. ASIS also >publishes an annual review (ARIST) that has done a review on subject >analysis a couple of times in the last ten years. > >The home page for ASIS is http://www.asis.org. Abstracts and Table >of contents for JASIS and ARIST (Annual Reviews Information Science >and Technology can be found at http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/lis > > >Another organization is American Medical Informatics Association >which cover indexing/information retrieval in medicine (though not >to the exact at ASIS). Their home page (including abstracts from >their journal can be found at: http://www.amia.org > >In my opinion, companies do provide on the job training as it is >necessary to learn the indexing philosophy of the organization as >well as policy on how certain things are indexed. > >As for positions, I would say contacting the database producer is >one way to find out about open positions. In addition to Medline, >there >is CINAHL (nursing and allied health www.cinahl.com), Chiroline >(Chiropractic literature, this is the old name of the database), >SportsDiscus (exercise physiology, athletic training, sports medicine >etc). >PsychInfo (psychology literature), International Pharmaceutical >Abstracts >(drugs). Additional some of the allied health professions might have >their own database (I think Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy >have one) > >Hope this helps. > > >Roberta Horowitz >roberta@netcom.com > > > > >On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Suellen Kasoff wrote: > >> I, too, am a medical database indexer. Where would you suggest >getting a >> job "doing it."? I also write abstracts. Do you know of any open >medical >> freelance database positions? I don't mean to flame you. I know you >mean >> well. But I find your advice awfully vague. Suellen G. Kasoff >> >> On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:29:56 -0700 William Perez >> writes: >> > Hello Maxine and hello Index-L: >> > >> > As a database indexer, I would say the best way to learn >is >> > by doing it. Having basic indexing skills is an excellent >> > start. For most databases, the indexer applies a >controlled >> > vocabulary of headings and subdivisions to periodical >> > articles. As an indexer, you would need to learn both the >> > vocabulary and the subject matter (in your case, medical >> > journals). >> > >> > Some databases also require abstracts, so you may need to >> > brush up on your writing skills. >> > >> > >> >______________________________ Reply Separator >> >_________________________________ >> >Subject: Re: Database Indexer >> >Author: "Maxine M. Okazaki" at SMTPGATE >> >Date: 6/5/97 12:53 PM >> > >> > >> >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 >> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> > >> >Hi everyone. I'm also a newbie interested in database indexing. >> >Could = >> >you please post your responses to the list? Also, while we are on >the >> >= >> >topic of database indexing, can anyone recommend how I could learn >= >> >medical database indexing. I've completed the USDA Basic Indexing >= >> >Course. Thanks. >> > >> >Maxine M. Okazaki >> >mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu >> > >> >---------- >> >From: Jim Wilson[SMTP:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM] >> >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 4:20 AM >> >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >> >Subject: Re: Database Indexer >> > >> >Hello all; >> > >> >As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my >> >"free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? >> > >> >I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can >> >someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing >differences >> >and/or similarities in these types of indexing? >> > >> >I appreciate your assistance, >> > >> >Jim >> >Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com >> >Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... >> >but three lefts do! >> > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: internet "publishing" Jonathan posits: >>What the Internet _will_ do is to centralise information. Instead of fifty >>publishers in twenty countries all duplicating effort and putting out >>their own Burmese Cookbooks, say, we can get the best recipes and put them >>together into an updatable archive that will be available world-wide. One >>copy of everything - and hopefully the best copy. And people like me, who >>want to read the stuff that was published last year and the year before, >>can do so to our hearts' content. > Actually, internet recipe seeking is a favorite pasttime of mine. But, somehow, I have very real doubts that the internet--largely concerned with whether something is public domain or not--is a valid arbiter of which Shakespeare edition is best. I want a choice at least of the scholarly insight I choose to consider. If we allow the "internet" to think and decide for us, perhaps our critical and analytic abilities will atrophy. Also, varieties of editions allow me to buy last year's annotated _Huckleberry Finn_. I delight in owning this exploration of a favorite novel. I also delight in the stunningly illustrated anniversary edition of _Animal Farm_. And, of course, mileage can vary. Other readers will only want last year's technothriller or each and every romance novel. Actually. Americans buy a lot of books. I really think print is here to stay. I suspect that the current, well-known large houses will continue the trend toward lowest common denominator. It could be seen as those who probably are best suited to producing quality and limited-interest books--university presses and small houses--will continue doing that and even grow. This is such a minefield of provocation, it's difficult to organize a response. I read myself into summer afternoon stupor or in bed each night with a book, not a laptop. It will take a while for this to change. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:30:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: UPS power supplies Okay, this may be the dumbest question in the world, but here goes... I just got a UPS to protect my computer. We have been having thunderstorms and lightning every day here in New Mexico, and I was getting seriously nervous about things. So my question is: can I _really_ keep working while things are booming and spiking outside? The literature that came with it says it protects you against spikes and surges and brownouts and all that, but doesn't actually say "you can keep working through lightning storms." Those of you with UPS's want to put my anxious soul at rest? There's another storm building up right now out there... Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Fictional characters Forgive me for covering old ground, but I can't remember details from = the thread about indexing the names of fictional characters. I am = working on a couple of books that explicate--in varying degrees of = detail--the plots of numerous short stories, novels, etc. = My questions are: Should I include the names of characters discussed? If so, how might I distinguish those from the names of real people? What treatment should I give to partial names, e.g., "Zeke?" The usual = "Zeke (Ida Teller's cousin)" might get a little cumbersome if I also = have to append the name of the work. To be a little more specific, one book I am indexing is about individual writers. The other is about such pop phenomena as comic strips and soap operas. In the case of the first book, my feeling is that indexing the = names of the writers and their works alone should suffice, and in the = case of the pop phenom book I should index actual names of characters in the funnies and soaps. = All opinions gratefully considered. TIA, Craig Brown The Last Word= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:06:30 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: UPS power supplies Jan, No question is dumb. I only fully trust the protectors that have a battery backup. My understanding is that a surge will not damage your machine if your protector is adequate but won't protect against the lost data if the machine shuts down. I have very old wiring here so have surge protectors coming out of every outlet but until I got this battery backup that pings every time there is a jolt did not realize how erratic my electricity is. I am delighted with my PowerHouse 500 which keeps me online even when the microwave loses it's time and begins to flash. So, guess I am saying it depends on what you expect protection from. A heavy duty protector should protect your machinery stopping the surges before they travel into your computer; a battery backup/protector gives you time to save and shut down properly in the event of electrical loss. :-> > > Okay, this may be the dumbest question in the world, but here goes... > > I just got a UPS to protect my computer. We have been having thunderstorms > and lightning every day here in New Mexico, and I was getting seriously > nervous about things. So my question is: can I _really_ keep working while > things are booming and spiking outside? The literature that came with it says > it protects you against spikes and surges and brownouts and all that, but > doesn't actually say "you can keep working through lightning storms." Those > of you with UPS's want to put my anxious soul at rest? > > There's another storm building up right now out there... > > Jan Wright -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 Johnathan, I have recently purchased from Amazon - books that they are searching for because they are hard to get (but they have found almost all of them)- and Harvard Business Review - because - both are on the internet and I now know what they offer and how to access them. Previous phone calls to librarys, bookstores and letters to publishers resulted in disappointment so I became trained to go to my local B and N and/or library and just get whatever they had on the subject. Imagine my joy to find these services actually able to supply "the" book I want - not just an approximation. I see the internet expanding my options rather than limiting them. I understand the economy of your vision however I have two points. First, the articles I asked for reprints of spanned the last fifteen years on leadership from HBR and I found none of them stale or dated or even contradictory, a fact I find amazing in this era of reengineering versus strategy, etc. Second, I am a very bright person. But I got a D in calculus only because the professor didn't ever want me in his class again. The other students were fine - I did all my homework to the limit of my abilities but just chalked myself off, as did the prof, as stuck in concrete thinking (mathaphobic). Older and wiser now I have learned that there are as many ways of explaining and teaching as there are people out there and were I to do it over I would just ask for a transfer to another class hoping to hit on the teacher who taught how I learn. My point being that there are never too many ways to go at a subject. We all have different comprehension and learning styles and the more written on the subject the greater the chance for success. Sometimes reading or hearing something put in just a little different way allows light to dawn on Marblehead! BTW - I did have my laptop in my bed at night to fall asleep reading from but found printing the material off and leaving the laptop on the desk works much better. -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:55:23 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Database Indexer Suellen, you might try Information Science Abstracts at Plenum Publishing Corp., 233 Spring St., NY, NY 10013. Editor is Ann Meagher, telephone 212-620-8492. Bonny McLaughlin mclaughb@cgs.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: s mckittrick Subject: Re: Advice for a newcomer In-Reply-To: <199706080156.UAA24637@velcome.iupui.edu> Seasoned Index-l persons: What are your opinions about the second level USDA course "Applied Indexing" and the other USDA Certification of Accomplishment Course Programs (Editorial, Technical Editorial, Editorial Management and Professional Editor)? Are these highly regarded? Thank you for your input, Sharon vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Sharon McKittrick 317-352-0615 ssmckitt@velcome.iupui.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Elinor Lindheimer wrote: > I think we should all save Rica's advice and trot it out whenever someone > asks a similar question. It was excellent--including the time one should > expect it to take to "get into" the business. > > As for the USDA course, I have seen the curriculum and I am VERY impressed > with it. There are a lot of little things one needs to know to work as a > freelance indexer, and the course covers a lot of these little things while > teaching the big concepts.. > > Elinor Lindheimer > elinorl@mcn.org > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:22:17 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: The Indexer I am posting this query for Ann Meagher, editor of Information Science Abstracts, because she does not have email access at this time. Information Science Abstracts would like to index and abstract articles from back issues of "The Indexer." If anyone is willing to lend copies of the following issues, please email me and I will put you in touch with Ann. Ann assures me that the indexing and abstracting will be done in a timely manner and your issues will be returned as soon as possible. The issues needed are: Vol. 11 all issues Vol. 10 issues 1 & 3 Vol. 9 issues 1, 2, & 3 Vol. 8 issues 2 & 4 Vol. 7 issue 4 Vol. 4 issues 1 & 2 Vols. 1, 2, and 3: all issues Thank you, Bonny McLaughlin mclaughb@cgs.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:13:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Fictional characters At 03:06 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Craig Brown wrote: >Should I include the names of characters discussed? > >If so, how might I distinguish those from the names of real people? I'd say yes, if the discussion is substantive (more than a sentence or two, depending on the context). And I'd use some sort of typographic system to differentiate between character names and names of real persons (if the list is long and complex, and if the publisher will allow you to do this). Real people might be in roman type; characters might be in italic (probably not bold, as that is TOO eye-catching). Or, you could even do two separate indexes...real names, subjects, titles, and so forth, and a separate "character index." >What treatment should I give to partial names, e.g., "Zeke?" The usual = > >"Zeke (Ida Teller's cousin)" might get a little cumbersome if I also = > >have to append the name of the work. If the mention is important enough to warrant inclusion in the index, but the single name alone is not enough to identify the character, I think I'd feel compelled to include a descriptor (probably the title--or shortened title--of the book he/she appears in, but not the author's name). >To be a little more specific, one book I am indexing is about individual >writers. The other is about such pop phenomena as comic strips and soap >operas. In the case of the first book, my feeling is that indexing the = > >names of the writers and their works alone should suffice, and in the = > >case of the pop phenom book I should index actual names of characters in >the funnies and soaps. = That sounds like how I would view it...again, depending on how much mention is made of individual characters in the first book. Good luck! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:28:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: UPS power supplies Jan, A UPS is designed to give you sufficient time to save your data and exit the program in an orderly fashion. Most only give you 10-15 minutes of battery time. Check the specs on the unit you bought. No, it is not advisable to try to work through a thunderstorm. I have had computer damage during a storm even with excellent surge protection. Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:00:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: UPS power supplies Actually. The advice I follow is to exit my programs and computer and pull electrical plugs from outlets. But, in San Diego (sadly) this is rarely needed. If I lived where you do, I would be certain to fully back up often. The back up folks promise $ insurance, which should cover hardware, but what's on my computer is worth more than money. At 08:28 PM 6/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >Jan, > >A UPS is designed to give you sufficient time to save your data and exit the >program in an orderly fashion. Most only give you 10-15 minutes of battery >time. Check the specs on the unit you bought. No, it is not advisable to try >to work through a thunderstorm. I have had computer damage during a storm >even with excellent surge protection. > >Dawn Schroeder >The Perfect Page > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:51:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 I think the plate tectonics man was Wegener, and the 20's sounds close to the right time. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:46:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Re[2]: Database Indexer In-Reply-To: <199706091510.IAA12614@mail5.netcom.com> Suellen AMIA http://www.amia.org SportsDiscu 800 665 6413 (Ontario Canada) Int. Pharm Abs 301 657 3000 (Bethseda MD) Mantis (Chiro is old name) 817 898 0234 (Denton TX) You might want to check out the Dialog (Knight RIdder) site as the blue sheets (these are descriptions of each Dialog Databases and describe contact, search issues and contact information) are online and this can give you plenty of databases to check out. http://www.dialog.com. Click on Products & Services. THen in the frame to the right, click on Blue Sheets. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Suellen Kasoff wrote: > Roberta What a nice answer! I am a member of ASIS. I have contacted > CINAHL. They want you to be in California. I am looking for a "freelance" > indexing job that I can do from my home in Edison, NJ. The same with > PsychInfo. They want you in Washington, D.C. Where do I get ahold of the > American Medical Informatics Association? or Chiroline? Sports Discus, or > International Pharmaceutical Abstracts? Can you give me a city or a > Website? Suellen > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: indexing fictional characters Craig Brown asked, "Should I include the names of characters discussed? If so, how might I distinguish those from the names of real people?" A while back I indexed a most entertaining book on American film and foreign policy. To deal with this issue, how to index real vs fictional people, here are some excerpts from my index, so you can see what I did. [It's by no means comprehensive, I just grabbed a few entries!] I also supplied an extensive introductory note, indicating that titles of works were in italics, that fictional characters were indexed under their full names with the names of the actors who portrayed them in parentheses as well as under the names of the actors themselves, etc. As you can see with the Bond entries, some fictional characters were discussed apart from their portrayals, so I left them alone. I also kept full titles in for fictional characters, figuring that that's how they are known. Bond, James, 105, 125, 134 Bond, James (Pierce Brosnan), 197-98 Bond, James (Sean Connery), 116 Bond, James (Roger Moore), 125, 134-35, 168 Connery, Sean, 221n31; as Bond, 116; as Captain Mark Ramius, 191-92 Rambo, Johnny (Sylvester Stallone), 153, 164-65, 170, 182-83 Ramius, Captain Mark (Sean Connery), 191-92 Reagan, Ronald, 131, 147-48; as Brass Bancroft, 217n20; foreign policy, 149-53, 174-75, 204n4; misinformation, 217n17; as president, 147, 178; as Ronbo, 153; as Web Sloane, 79; Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), 151-52, 177, 204n4; summits with Gorbachev, 175-78 Reed, John (Warren Beatty), ix, 167 Renko, Arkady (William Hurt), viii, 165-66 Ronbo, 153 Sloane, Web (Ronald Reagan), 79 Stallone, Sylvester, 157-58, 170, 183, 225; as Rambo, 153, 164- 65, 170, 182-83; Rambo: First Blood, Part II (1985), 164-65; Rambo III (1988), 182-83; as Rocky, 155-58, Superman (Christopher Reeve), 183-84 _Superman IV: The Quest for Peace_ (1987), 183-85, 226 Hope this helps, Pilar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing * PilarW@aol.com Great Indexes for Great Books ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:03:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "[Gaye Tarallo]" Subject: Re: Newbie advice Hi, I want to thank all of you who offered such great advice to me. It has really been helpful in helping me make decisions as to the next steps I should take in starting my indexing business. It's great to know that there is such a great support group out there. Gaye Tarallo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:09:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Re: Fictional characters Craig writes: > I am = > working on a couple of books that explicate--in varying degrees of = > detail--the plots of numerous short stories, novels, etc. <...> >The other is about such pop phenomena as comic strips and soap > operas. In the case of the first book, my feeling is that indexing the = > names of the writers and their works alone should suffice, and in the = > case of the pop phenom book I should index actual names of characters in > the funnies and soaps. = Unless the studies in the first book are comparative studies of the characters themselves, I would not index the character names. Since what you have are explications of plot and general discussion of the works, separate entries for the characters will not point to any information not covered under title and author entries, and I think would mislead the index user into thinking there was some such special (and unusual) information. On a spot check, I can't find any examples of indexes in my sizeable lit-crit collection that index the character names included in a work being discussed. On the other hand, the comic strip and soap opera characters as pop culture phenomena might well be known and discussed independently of their original contexts, and so I, too, would lean toward indexing those. FWIW, Jenny Rowe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GERRI GRAY Subject: Re: Fictional characters Here's my 2 cents as an academic librarian giving people advice on how to research a character in a play or novel. No one has time to read everything that can be found on the work in question, but one can look in the index to see if the character one is looking for is in there. I f the disscussion is even a paragraph in context of the work or contrast to other characters that would be very useful to a student or other interested readers. We love finding characters indexed. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Geraldine Hall Gray "Gerri" ghg@loyola.edu Head Reference Librarian 410-532-8787 x115 Loyola/Notre Dame Library "We are drowning in information and Baltimore, MD 21212 starving for knowledge." John Naisbitt +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Re: Fictional characters' names in the index Dear Craig: I am a monographic (book) cataloger who uses the Library of Congress Subject Headings (LCSH). LCSH has authorized headings: Falstaff, John, Sir (Fictitious character) Sawyer, Tom (Fictitious character) Bunyan, Paul (Legendary character) Spider-Man (Fictitious character) LCSH routinely makes cross references to these names in direct order (not last name first), but no cross reference is made to Shakespeare or Twain. However Superman (Fictitious character) did get cross references for Kent, Clark and Clark Kent and Bugs Bunny (Fictitious character) got one for Bunny, Bugs! This is not necessarily an endorsement of LC's practice for your indexing purposes but just to let you know how catalogers have dealt with a similar problem in library catalogs. ******************************************************************************** Jean A. Thompson PHONE: (518) 442-3628 Monographic Cataloger FAX: (518) 442-3630 University at Albany/SUNY University Library, B-35 E-MAIL: thompson@cnsvax.albany.edu 1400 Washington Avenue Albany, NY 12222 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fictional characters Craig, One approach is to index the character's name clarified with a parenthetical reference to its creator, e.g., Barks, Carl characters Donald Duck, 34-37 Scrooge McDuck, 45-49, 102, 105-119 McDuck, Scrooge (Barks character), 45-49, 102, 105-119 Uncle Scrooge. See McDuck, Scrooge (Barks character) or, Scrooge McDuck. See under Barks, Carl, characters Fun job, eh? Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:05:58 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Oxford Dictionary Survey Someone posted the URL for a survey being conducted for the Oxford Online Dictionary recently. I deleted the email after checking it out and now a friend is interested in seeing it. If anyone could resend me that URL privately I would appreciate it. Thanks. -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:25:03 +0000 Reply-To: lbindex@picard.omn.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee Ellen Brower Organization: Brower Indexing Services Subject: Water Cooler Chat - Feedback I've been struck with an uncontrollable urge to communicate, because an editor just called and reported that the author is "very happy" with the index that I created for a 1000 page in small type translated book with endless footnotes and appendix on law provisions. Whew! Makes it seem almost worth all the pain and who could better understand than other indexers. Effusively, Lee Brower ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:10:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Water Cooler Chat - Feedback Lee Ellen Brower wrote: > > I've been struck with an uncontrollable urge to communicate, > because an editor just called and reported that the author is > "very happy" with the index that I created for a 1000 page in > small type translated book with endless footnotes and appendix on > law provisions. Whew! Makes it seem almost worth all the pain > and who could better understand than other indexers. > > Effusively, Lee Brower That is wonderful! Thanks for posting this... it is always nice to know that an indexer is appreciated. Good work :-) :-) :-) :-) -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services mailto:norcross@ix.netcom.com (919) 852-0042 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:53:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanna Flaherty Subject: ASI: Philadelphia Group--CALLING ALL INDEXERS CALLING ALL INDEXERS--potential, beginning and experienced. On Saturday, June 28, from 1 to 3 pm BRING YOUR INDEXES for constructive comment and also to prepare to be an evaluator. In other words, we will look at each others indexes, hoping to be inspired by good ones and to learn from the less-than-ideal. No scoring, no winners or losers. If you have no index of your own, bring someone else's index, good or bad, or come without an index for the fellowship and light refreshments. Place: Wissahickon Valley Public Library, Community Room, 650 Skippack Pike (Route 73), Blue Bell, PA, in Montgomery County. Phone 215-643-1320 (Kathy Berry, Librarian) The Library is three buildings from the Blue Bell Inn. Don't confuse this library with the branch library on Butler Pike in Ambler. For More Information: Ann Cassar 319 Brinton Lake Road Thornton, PA 19373 610-459-2380 Posted by Jeanna Flaherty Jeanna Flaherty I N D E X I N G Philadelphia, PA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:07:39 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9e_Olivier?= Subject: accessing archives In-Reply-To: <199706110054.UAA14039@opus.autoroute.net> Help! I'm trying to figure out (if it's possible) how to access the archives (specifically the thread about Cindex 6.1 freezing up) for a friend and I'm not having much luck. I sent a message to the listserv with "index index-l" in the body but can't make heads or tails of it. Will some kind soul please shed some light on the matter (privately or through the list if appropriate). Thanks in advance. P.S. I'm a wanna-be-indexer. I follow the list and enjoy it, especially the helpful comments, but have trouble keeping up with the volume of posts! Josee Olivier jolivier@autoroute.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:26:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Lisa C. Sick" Subject: Database Indexing To those inquiring about database indexing: About getting into the field: it's a matter of having basic analytical ability, and a good sense of "aboutness". Probably the best way to learn is by doing, which is probably easier if you have some areas of subject knowledge and/or the knowledge of or experience in database searching--as someone else mentioned, knowing the process of information retrieval is essential to good indexing. It is a good idea to have some technical writing ability, as many database producers have their staff to abstracting as well as indexing. I've been indexing for 13 years, for databases on education, psychology, aging, alcoholism, and music. Actually, you should check the employment ads, ads in professional journals, etc. Check the database catalog and write/call to see to if they use freelancers--some allow their freelances to not be local. One of the best ways to find work is by word-of-mouth, too. Good luck--database indexing is fun, and the work is constant. And once you get good at abstracting/indexing, you can vary your subject matter a little bit, which keeps it interesting. Lisa Sick Information Specialist Arlington, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:45:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706120233.WAA01405@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:55:02 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: accessing archives Okay, there are two ways to access the Index-L archives. 1) Go to the ASI web site, http://www.well.com/user/asi/index.html, scan down and click on Online Discussion Groups, scan down until you see Index-L archive, and click on the gopher address. The archives there are searchable, but not up to date. 2) Send the "index index-l" command to the listserv (LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu). What you should get back is a list of back issues of the Index-L digest. Sorta. Here's the pertinent section of the List FAQ: > Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can > get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX > INDEX-L" command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or > LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). You can then order these files > with a "GET INDEX-L LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database > search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more > information on the latter. According to these instructions, you need to remember the approximate date of the thread you are interested in, then send the listserv the "Get index-l logxxxx" command, where the x's are replaced by the correct code for that week. Here's a line from the message that returns when you send the "index index-l" request: >INDEX-L LOG9706B ALL OWN V 80 1408 97/06/11 08:44:03 Started on > Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:11:01 +1000 Thus, if I wanted this particular digest, I would send a message saying "Get index-l LOG9706B". The part of the line you want to send is the LOGxxxxx part. The other stuff is computerese telling you who has access, etc. and at the very end is "started on" which tells you the date the digest, well, started. I've never used the database command, but that's a third option. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Ergonomics--again! -Reply Voice Recognition Software. I do not have personal experience with any of this, but if it does what blurbs I have seen recently say that it does, it might enable you to get away from typing and from using the mouse. The blurbs I have read recently are from IBM and from Dragon software. If anybody else has had experience with this type of software, I would be interested in hearing your impressions. >>> Susan Healy 06/11/97 08:45am >>> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Coffield Subject: Ergonomics--again! Susan, Not to be alarmist, but one thing you really have to do is take it easy. Hopefully you can find a chair, desk and keyboard that lighten the stress so you can keep up your workload, but... I have a relative who has herniated discs C4-C7 over the past four years (C5/6 just last month) and she recently had to see a neurosurgeon to find out whether paralysis from the neck down was an imminent possibility. Luckily, he said it's not likely (note: he didn't say it definitely wouldn't happen), but you should know that once the pain is gone, you can't necessarily resume normal activities. The discs will likely herniate again or, worse, rupture! Best of luck finding ergonomic help!!! As far as work habits, the best advice I know of is to follow the physical therapy regimen religiously, and take a break when you feel pain. Janice Coffield - A sympathetic and empathetic neck pain sufferer from long before I began indexing. >>> Susan Healy 06/11/97 08:45am >>> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:08:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Ergonomics--again! -Reply Susan, There are a lot of office furniture products that may help-- you should talk to your neurosurgeon and physical therapist for recommendations. Specifically, your desk chair could make a big difference. You should look for something with adjustable arm rests, adjustable height and good back support. I have used the ergonomic wrist supports for keyboards and mouse pads (mice pads?), and although they take some getting used to, they do help. You also may want to consider finding a way to lower your monitor. Primarily, though, I agree with Janice that the best solution is to listen carefully to your neurosurgeon and physical therapist and follow their regime religiously. I had a pinched nerve in my shoulder blade many years ago (not nearly as bad as what you have, but painful nonetheless), and I stopped the regime as soon as the pain went away. Needless to say, I reinjured myself within six months and had to start all over again! Hope this helps! --Sharon Wright, another sympathetic neck and back pain sufferer. >>> Susan Healy 06/11/97 08:45am >>> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Susan Healy wrote (horrific description of herniated-cerivical-disk symptions snipped): > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > Susan, I don't know if this will be realistic for you, but in our office some types of indexing can be handled reasonably well by having the indexer use a dictaphone. We use that method--or at least some of us do--for session law indexing, a situation in which all the entries are new and one index is being built from scratch. It seems to me dictation would also work for indexing of all-new statutory material. That leaves amendments and repeals, but at least it's less mousing around. If your office has, or can borrow, data entry staff who can be trained in whatever indexing software you use, I think it's worth it to save your health. Other little things that can help: a stand to hold whatever statutes volume you're working from, so that you're just turning pages rather than lifting the whole book; having somebody separate the lineprinter printouts into separate pages and storing them in folders, so that you generally don't lift the whole pile when you're working with it (I'm guessing these are reverse printouts of the index?); unstapling the bills, for the same reason--as I work with our current appropriations bills I'm reminded that I should do this myself. Best of luck and better health to you! -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:31:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! At 08:45 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? A week ago I finally took the plunge and splurged on a Hermann Miller ergonomic chair. It cost $1,200 but so far I am extremely pleased with it. It sort of looks like a lawn chair because the back and seat are metal frames with mesh fabric stretched over them. It has adjustable lumbar support, pneumatic lift, arms that adjust up and down and in and out, adjustable tilt tension, etc. I was skeptical about the mesh surfaces and had originally looked at another make that was conventional upholstery, but that one was heavily sculptured and the sculpturing just didn't match my curves. The mesh version is very comfortable, no pressure points, feels like I'm sitting in a hammock. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:19:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kayla Bovenzi Subject: herniated cervical disc Hello Sue, I also have a herniated cervical disc, actually I have two but one is very small. I have had sore and stiff shoulders on and off the last 4 years but an x-ray showed nothing out of the ordinary. Last March I woke up one morning very stiff and real sore through my shoulders and neck and within 24 hours I could hardly move due to the pain. An MRI showed the herniations and my doctor sent me straight to the neurosurgeon. I went the same route with the steroids, codeine and anti-inflammatories. The neurosurgeon wrote me a prescription for physical therapy and I started with three sessions a week. After two months of therapy I am 98% better, so far. Before therapy I had the pain down my arm and into my hand with tingling but I never had any numbness. The neurosurgeon stressed the importance of fixing the nerve compression, either with therapy or surgery. I am an indexing specialist for West Group and my job sounds much more varied than yours. I don't type and use the mouse all day, which I am sure greatly helps my situation. The exercises that the therapist taught me have helped a great deal and I am going to try and keep them up. I am afraid that if I don't I will end up back at square one. I also had electromuscular stimulation and cervical traction as part of my physical therapy. Stress plays a big role in aggravating this condition so I am trying to keep that in mind. I wish you the best of luck. I know for me, this has been a very scary situation as well as painful. This type of condition can change your life. Kayla ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Twin Cities Chapter of ASI, Annual Meeting The Twin Cities Chapter of the American Society of Indexers will meet on Saturday, June 28, from 11:15 to !:00 p.m. at the Merriam Park Library, at the corner of Marshall and Fairview avenues in St. Paul, MN. Chapter members who attended the national ASI meeting in Winston-Salem will report to the rest of us about that conference. We'll also report election results and give the annual report on the condition of the chapter. Finally, we'll brainstorm ideas for meetings in the coming year. Bring a bag lunch if you like, but definitely bring your ideas. Especially if you are a new or aspiring indexer, come and let us know how we can help you. Call Maryann Corbett with questions or to get directions. Work phone below; home phone 612-645-5985. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:05:47 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111432.IAA17161@Rt66.com> I second, third, etc, etc Dick's recommendation of the Hermann Miller Aeron chair. It wasn't in my budget, either, but once I'd tried it out in the showroom I knew there wasn't much point in looking at anything else! It's definitely the chair technology of the future. And although my neck still isn't perfect, I can spend long days at the desk without those twice-weekly trips to the chiropractor, and I'm rarely in as much pain as I used to be. I did, however, manage to find it at a local office furniture place where it was discounted--without the armrests (which I will add when cash flow allows), I paid only $700. The armrests, I believe, are about $250. So be sure to shop around. Along with the physical therapy and massage that you're pursuing, I would highly recommend hunting down a Doctor of Oriental Medicine (that's what they're called here in NM; possibly Licensed Acupuncturists there?) who either specializes in sports medicine, or is trained in Acupuncture Orthopedics. There's a great deal that can be done with this approach to complement the more standard treatments, including dramatically increasing the body's own healing capacity. Stress management, of course, is another benefit. There is a National Sports Acupuncture Assocation, as well as an Acupuncture Orthopedics institute (can't remember just now what it's called); both would be able to provide you with local referrals. (If you were closer to Albuquerque, I'd send you to my husband, who is a member of both...but you're not!) If you want more information, contact me off-list and I'll see what I can find out. And for now, take that resting & PT very seriously! Good luck! Caroline Parks At 10:31 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 08:45 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >>4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > >A week ago I finally took the plunge and splurged on a Hermann Miller >ergonomic chair. It cost $1,200 but so far I am extremely pleased with it. > It sort of looks like a lawn chair because the back and seat are metal >frames with mesh fabric stretched over them. It has adjustable lumbar >support, pneumatic lift, arms that adjust up and down and in and out, >adjustable tilt tension, etc. > >I was skeptical about the mesh surfaces and had originally looked at >another make that was conventional upholstery, but that one was heavily >sculptured and the sculpturing just didn't match my curves. The mesh >version is very comfortable, no pressure points, feels like I'm sitting in >a hammock. > >Dick > > ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111246.FAA03662@mx3.u.washington.edu> Instead of asking for a specific piece of equipment/type of furniture, ask your employer for a workstation evaluation by a competent ergonomic specialist. That person will look at your workstation and the way you work and make specific (and individualized) recommendations as to monitor placement, keyboard height, chairs, lighting, and all the other factors that contribute to ergonomic safety. We've done this for a number of employees in my library, and the state (not our budget) has provided them under ADA legislation with the chairs, keyboards, and (in one case) voice recognition software necessary to allow them to continue working despite RSI. Competent consultants also recognize that there is no ONE correct solution for everyone; a 5'1" 25 year old with perfect vision has very different ergonomic needs than a 6'2" bifocal wearer. So advice you get on this list (or anywhere else) may work well for one person but be a disaster for someone else. Most freelancers lack the resources for this type of consultation, so we have to rely on experimentation and recommendations from colleagues until we 'get it right' - often spending lots of money on stuff that DOESN'T work until we find the combination that fits our bodies and working style. Which is why my junk cabinet at home contains 2 different types of unused keyboard trays, a monitor stand, 2 different types of wrist rests, a foot rest, unuseable copy stands, and numerous other ergonomic aids that weren't. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:14:45 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Susan, I hope you are doing better by now. I've seen a lot of good suggestions come by on the list. I had surgery for L5 years ago as I was in a situation which demanded I be mobile and I had let the pain go unattended too long. A friend had the C5 you do and she proceeded along daily exercise lines and did quite well with no changes to her lifestyle other than that. About four months ago I began to have the numbing and tingling in my arm you describe. I put my mouse on top of the desk so that my arm is 45 degrees up from my elbow. My wrist rests on an ergonomic pad and allows my hand to move freely with no pressure from the arm while mousing. I have a good chair, and a computer desk top at mid-torso height. I am sure the physical therapist will teach you how to lift and move things and recommend the proper height for your work area tools. I know I had to be retrained on how to lift things, take breaks from sitting or standing - Old Ben Franklin was right - moderation in all things. If you can't work in moderation then force yourself to take breaks - I work at two computers - a desktop and a laptop at different heights and mice, etc. For me variety makes a big difference. I could really relate to the statement: "Something like this can really change your life." I had the back surgery. Expedient and removed the ruptured material from my sciatic nerve; however, the tradeoff was no more volleyball, running, jumping, bowling, bicycling or any activity tht puts pressure on the spot where the cushioning disc material is missing or I have severe pain again and nothing helps but bed rest. Surgery is drastic and if you can avoid it with exercise and lifestyle changes I would recommend that. I still miss my sports. I was only 35 and emotionally, I felt my life was over and I was an old lady. Thirteen years later I know my life certainly wasn't over but it was quite a traumatic episode and did change the direction my life took. Best of luck to you. -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:55:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Re: Ergonomics/ Voice Recognition Software ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7666.BE3F6A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My husband uses Kurzweil Voice voice recognition software and he really = likes it. You have to "train" the software to recognize your speech = patterns. When you first begin using the program, it is learning to = recognize how you pronounce words. After a while, the program will = prompt you to further "educate" it by saying specific words or sounds. =20 My husband also says: You-have-to-speak-with-a-pause-between-words, but = after some training it is quite accurate. Shortcomings include inability = to use context, so for example did you say 2, to, or too? You need to = either watch it as you work or proofread the results. It is very good = with number entry, for example data into a spreadsheet. Also permits = voice commands such as "file save" and "down arrow." If anyone has any questions, e-mail me and I'll be happy to pass them = along. Maxine M. Okazaki mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7666.BE3F6A20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih8QAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AFQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cABTTVRQAElOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5D Qy5CSU5HSEFNVE9OLkVEVQAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAiAAAASU5ERVgt TEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHQAA ACdJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cCcAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAnAAAAU01UUDpJTkRFWC1M QEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAA AAAD8T4BCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAKwAAAFJFOiBFcmdv bm9taWNzLyBWb2ljZSBSZWNvZ25pdGlvbiBTb2Z0d2FyZQBYDwEFgAMADgAAAM0HBgALAAwANwAd AAMASAEBIIADAA4AAADNBwYACwALAC4AHAADAD0BAQmAAQAhAAAANjQ2Qjg5Mjg1MEUyRDAxMTlC REEwMDIwQUZEMzI0NUYAEAcBA5AGAAAFAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2 AAAAAABAADkAwECPRIh2vAEeAHAAAQAAACsAAABSRTogRXJnb25vbWljcy8gVm9pY2UgUmVjb2du aXRpb24gU29mdHdhcmUAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8dohEhyiJa2XiUBHQm9oAIK/TJF8AAB4AHgwB AAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAYAAAAbW9rYXpha2lAYWNwdWIuZHVrZS5lZHUAAwAGELFm UFEDAAcQzAIAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAE1ZSFVTQkFORFVTRVNLVVJaV0VJTFZPSUNFVk9JQ0VSRUNP R05JVElPTlNPRlRXQVJFQU5ESEVSRUFMTFlMSUtFU0lUWU9VSEFWRVRPIlRSQUlOIlRIRVNPRlRX QVJFVE9SRUMAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABtAwAAaQMAANsEAABMWkZ18vJ+3v8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALy CQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1 AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFENC/JjAEAF0HkgaHVkc2IAcGQgGzAHkUsRCHB6d2UDEVZvaXBj ZSB2HJMWEAWgZ4kDAHRpAiAgc28BgG53CsAcwBtiaB0iB0BsMRsAbGlrB5EdoC4gTCBZCGAbEGF2 HMB0oG8gInRyC3EiIKCvHtEeByCxHUV6HMB5CGHtHfBwCeARcCAKsAJABJE6cx/xVx7QA6AjASBm xmkRoAVAYmVnC4AbkT0LgGchUxNQHXAhAG0s9x/BH8AEIGwfEASgJeMiSlxobwfgJMImYW4IYG7V HLF3BbBkJDJBAYAEkOsegCnAaAMQZSbQJikpwHcDEAMgJmFtBTEkwiCxZpcIcCFhBcAiCYB1YyPQ FmUhQCbxYhsAc2F5uyXiI1FjBpAcoCnEIAWx/x4AKYAqAwqFCoUa+QdAHgC5LqJzOiAAGcwgEi0g YootILAtI1Fhay0D8LEhYC1hLQqwG6EtJWCfHjAJ4TUgKeIm0GJ1BUD+YSpjHgAHgCCgIQIl4ib0 zHF1HaAecWNjCHAuAd0f8FMosAAgBaBtJeEfsf8pkApADbA6kQGgAxAdoBsAGyCxG6EgBaACMGV4 dP8m0DKBAhAFwDxwJrALUBzAnGRpG4Akwi6xIDIrIU5vJtAFsSCwbz8gE27/CeAbgCCxHEAtYx5A OhAjoN0m8WEEICTCKdFrMAImYQ8eEB8BP9Ee03N1bHStJDFJJwMggHIbAGc/IPcbgDUyP5B1BtAq gQnwIPD+eSbQPPsj0CqwC4AgsSqwuyNQQmJzHtARwB/wQTJy/SNgcjpAQ0Ac1TohA4Ev4fdDECOR QSEiJQA9gS6wIIDzIUAbYiJkKMADoArAA2DIdy4iMNxJZh6BIwD/P6AgUQQgTSE4wQeQHbI2wZ80 gADAAxE3sRtiSScsIfMlYCBRcHA7owqwBBEhYScr4AdAAiBnLjDdYXgLC4AcwE0f8E9rYXpdNQBp CoUEYFNEQADQcNh1Yi4t0B+QLi3BCo/PGhww3Ar0H3AzNg3wMzwLVYUVMQBaoAAAAAMAEBAAAAAA AwAREAAAAABAAAcwoJ3xn352vAFAAAgwoJ3xn352vAEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAMJ3 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7666.BE3F6A20-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:19:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Embedded Index in Word97 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC766A.1E77A620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a question about embedding index entries in Word97 and I hope the = group can help me. Take, for example, a two paragraph long discussion = about fishing on page 7. When the book/manuscript is edited or revised, = the discussion on fishing now covers pages 7-8. If I merely embedded an = index tag either at the beginning or the end of the paragraph, then in = the revised/edited version, the index would refer to fishing on either = page 7 or 8, depending on which page the tag is on. In order to avoid = such errors in the index shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to = selected text (i.e. bookmarks)? That way, if the original bookmark is = on one page and in subsequent editions/revisions it shifts to multiple = pages the correct pages will be referenced. My gut feeling is that = using bookmarks is the compulsive way to go, but it would take much too = much time to select the text and insert the bookmarks for all the index = entries. I know I need to balance my compulsive nature with what is = practical. Also, if I remember correctly, in an earlier thread there was some = comment about earlier versions of Word crashing during compilation of = the index if there were too many bookmarks in the document. Is this = true also with Word97? =20 As you can probably tell, I have yet to embed an index, but I am talking = with a publisher who definitely wants the index embedded to make = revisions for updating the book easier for them. I am planning to index = the whole book using Cindex and then embed the entries from a page sort = order printout. I would appreciate any comments from experienced indexers. Thank you. Maxine M. Okazaki mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC766A.1E77A620 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IigRAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AFQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cABTTVRQAElOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5D Qy5CSU5HSEFNVE9OLkVEVQAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAiAAAASU5ERVgt TEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHQAA ACdJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cCcAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAnAAAAU01UUDpJTkRFWC1M QEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAA AAAD8T4BCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAGQAAAEVtYmVkZGVk IEluZGV4IGluIFdvcmQ5NwBFCAEFgAMADgAAAM0HBgALAA0AEwAnAAMALwEBIIADAA4AAADNBwYA CwAMADsAIQADAFABAQmAAQAhAAAANjk2Qjg5Mjg1MEUyRDAxMTlCREEwMDIwQUZEMzI0NUYAFQcB A5AGAFwGAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAgKTQpIt2vAEe AHAAAQAAABkAAABFbWJlZGRlZCBJbmRleCBpbiBXb3JkOTcAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbx2i6TQ KIlrb+JQEdCb2gAgr9MkXwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABgAAABtb2themFr aUBhY3B1Yi5kdWtlLmVkdQADAAYQBtWWNQMABxA0BQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASUhBVkVBUVVFU1RJ T05BQk9VVEVNQkVERElOR0lOREVYRU5UUklFU0lOV09SRDk3QU5ESUhPUEVUSEVHUk9VUENBTkhF TFBNRVRBS0UsRk9SRVhBTVBMRSxBVFdPUEFSQUdSQQAAAAACAQkQAQAAAN8EAADbBAAAswcAAExa RnUrQSpe/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0C gzN3AuQHEwKAfQqACM8J2TvxFg8yNTUCgAqBDbELYGBuZzEwMxRQCwNseGkzNg3wC1UUUQvyYxEA QCBJIBGAdmUg2GEgcQpQE8BpAiAbsK0G4HUFQBPgYgmAZAuA7GcgC4ANsHgcwAIwCIETBCALgCBX BbBkOTcnG7AdgBtCb3AboHRoxxugCcAIYHAgYwORH7AGbCAgB4AuICBUYXBrZSwgAhAFwB2gYQ5t C1AhURvAdHdvIIUKsWEJwGFwaCAVoLcdQR0gBPB1BBAcOGYEAK5oHTIcQQqwZxugNyDxHlcfsAOg H6IG4G9rL/8DgSPgBQQEABzAHSAT0B8Q+wWxFhB2BAAJgCFgH6IjqfMcQSS2bm8H4AWgG5ARoCMl UwQgNy04IPFJZucbQQeAFhBseRzFJ/EDkXcddAGQHVBlJ9AfsAXAYfMFQCZDZWcLgAMAJQIFwP8f ognwKAEsAB+iIrcowy1S+x+TKFUvJ7Uq4hwxKMQddFkigHVsHxAWEGYuUXTfIpAkuS4VJWQoEjgh YA2w9x9wHYAk9Xck4BFwJVQfov8t0ieBAiArwimxCyA01BuA5G9pHxBzdTghBJADYJ8rATG1HXQk 0DRSbicFQH8HQAMgLLcdfDSnEbAiEGOLJ+IT0HgFQChpLiDhgyaCAMBya3MpPyEB4xGABUB3YXkh YAaQH5P9BbBpLxEHQEBnORQlITCS7yWBHvIeUTrAYhGwG+ECMPMnoxwxcy8oU0XCHWAFQO8k0QGA BCA1AW00YBwgIgH/KyUfogWhFhA/cCslA/A9Abcc8DSUCfBjCYAg8U0skP5nJIIJ4BnQHUJIUi6B I+D/HTJAd0vESJIh8DRgAJAbkdNBkTTyZ28hYGIcoUax/zREAZAhQEdxOCE1AEdiUGL/B3E++DiU P9JEZBGwACAmNz9M9CGCPPIzqB3VK8Iga98qghtQQ+A/kiKQYgdAAHDfSoAgwCyQTclCoHQIcE5R /y4hN+EugSeBE1AA0BwgIEDsbC4KhQqFQU4QTvFB4f8bUBYQB4Ac4QXASLUsgEHBXxxRNcEKwBnQ NNJoFhBh/z+hLkFOUgQgW0BRQU3BB4D/RVEcdV2FMxU5MSwAHoIgMPsi0CTUZAhxHUFNwgMQLoD/ KZMwVB10QeRYol6CUJMAcOcskEy5JiRkbyPQX4IrwvtIUkvScgpQPOFbQFjEHoR3QRFaTQQgeQhg IDMTUG9vVwACYE6RIJBsIWAbVXn/EcA08hzTLTdPBBtQIeAtwfxsax0yWNMbwE3wAmAkwf8uUTfw IpANsQuAJ9EsgUGQ/wIwSFQddSzGR1JQAkYYIYL9IBBkYyEdQSZGXWEAkC5R+yGCH6FtVcNuQQtR LzQ1Ab8tdR+xcAFH4XSzTFRDHXT/HvIxY2zkL8Qd9ANSbzIlcv9bQFMhOdQTUAuANQAcoFo9/xtQ NEQjEBNQBZAHMBPQHuH/V5NfgnrlHaAfcAiBSnIdZHcq8SDyEYBuQ1BqkVo9TSxheAuAG6BNIPBP a3RheiEwaQqFBGCD1ED7ANBvYS5iUCFAQDBiUAqHFxpKWqYVMQCIIAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAA QAAHMODgsNWIdrwBQAAIMODgsNWIdrwBHgA9AAEAAAABAAAAAAAAABj6 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC766A.1E77A620-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:29:42 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Ergonomics/ Voice Recognition Software Maxine, I purchased and use the IBM voice recognition package for dictation ($59). After a few hours of training I found it highly reliable for legal and fairly standardized business contracts but still finicky with non-dictionary terms such as personal names and, as you said, context. It is important to pause and enunciate clearly - am able to get 99% accuracy with corporate bylaws and similar documents without the add-on legal dictionary in a quiet office. My results weren't nearly as successful on the train between NJ and Boston. So background noise appears to play a big part also. Now if they allowed you to add to your dictionary of terms before starting a letter I bet the accuracy would increase again. I know there are dicionaries for legal and medical terms that increase the price and probably the accuracy. Wonder if there is an indexers dictionary as a "plug-in". What would the market bear and who would be competent to develop it . . . Gail Rhoades? > > -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:46:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Hi Susan-- << 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them?>> I really like my "wavy" keyboard. Once I got used to it (it took about 2 weeks) and could find all of the keys again (I'm a touch typist) I noticed an immediate respite in the pain in my right arm and shoulder. I've been using the keyboard for about a year and wouldn't think of changing back. Two additional points: 1) I bought a mid-price keyboard, which seemed to have a somewhat lighter touch than the top-of-the-line Microsoft keyboard. But the number keys are split differently--I have to type "6" with my right index finger rather than my left. 2) I have to constantly remind myself not to pound on the keyboard. This too helped ease some of the pain. <<2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse?>> One downside to the ergonomic keyboard is that it is wider than standard keyboards. This is a problem for me because I keep my mouse to the right of the keyboard and find that I now have to reach for it. I have short arms so I'm back to aggravating the shoulder again. I'm constantly shifting the keyboard around to try to find a happy medium for comfortable typing and comfortable mousing. So I'm training myself to use keyboard options rather than the mouse whenever possible. But back to your question--I did find one model of ergonomic keyboard that has a glidepad on it below the space bar. I'm toying with the idea of trying that out. <<3. Any hints for work habits?>> I too do indexing of statutes for the Minnesota Legislature and find myself dealing with the same bulky materials as you . Maryann Corbett has already offered some useful suggestions. Another thought I had is this: The configuration of my desk is L-shaped, with my computer to my left and the writing surface to my right. Early on I developed a bad habit--when working on the writing surface I fully faced it, and just sort of swiveled to the left to check out something on the computer. This meant that my left arm was typing at a wierd angle and my right arm was stretching. I had to retrain myself to turn my whole body to face the computer--that too helped some of the arm/shoulder problems. <<4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? >> I have a chair on wheels, with armrests, and a pneumatic lift (easily goes up and down). When typing, I raise the chair at least 6-8" higher than I have it for doing other work at my desk. Both my grade school piano teacher and my high school typing teacher insisted that wrists and elbows should be higher than fingers when doing either of those activities. This means I need a footrest too, but isn't that what old telephone books are for? Good Luck! Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:53:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Embedded Index in Word97 Maxine M. Okazaki writes: << I have a question about embedding index entries in Word97 and I hope the group can help me. Take, for example, a two paragraph long discussion about fishing on page 7. When the book/manuscript is edited or revised, the discussion on fishing now covers pages 7-8. If I merely embedded an index tag either at the beginning or the end of the paragraph, then in the revised/edited version, the index would refer to fishing on either page 7 or 8, depending on which page the tag is on. In order to avoid such errors in the index shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to selected text (i.e. bookmarks)? >> Yep, bookmarks are the best way to go. The only problem is if the Word chapters will eventually be placed in a page-layout program... not all page-layout software is able to read bookmark. Where I work, we embed our index entries in Word and then place the Word files into PageMaker, which is unable to read Word bookmarks. Our workaround is to embed an entry at both the beginning and end of the discussion. (Copy-and-paste comes in handy here.) In the fishing example, I'd embed a code on page 7 and another on page 8, so the compiled index would read fishing, 7, 8 We then run a separate macro that will combine the numbers into page spans (7-8). (Without the macro, it takes about 2 hours to manually combine the page numbers. Ugh!) In the case of lengthy discussions, I try to place a code on each page to make sure I have the whole span covered. I've never had a chance to work with Cindex (hopefully sometime soon...), so I've never had to index a book and then embed the codes separately. It does sound like a lot of work, though. You might experiment a little and index a chapter directly in Word... it's really not that bad once you get used to it. :) Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:42:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Greetings, fellow Indexers - This is my first posting to this group, and it's in reply to Terry Hudoba's question about ergonomic keyboards. I tried the "wavy" kind for about a month and then switched back to the standard straight one. I did not like the wavy one because: 1. Its tilt was too extreme. I find it easier to type on a flatter board -- better for my wrists too, then unnaturally flexing them back. 2. It's too *big*. The mouse had to sit far over to the right. I was either reaching for the mouse, or pushing the keyboard to the left and trying to type on it that way. (That's a whole different keyboard problem -- why are they ALL made with the calculator keypad on the right? I'd sure love to find one chopped off after the arrow/function keys! That would free up desk (mouse) space.) Keyboard comfort, like to many things in life, is subjective. My brother has used a wavy keyboard since they were created and he won't switch back. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:29:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: New indexing area, perhaps I just attended a local entrepreneurs' luncheon, where I happened to meet a couple of lawyers. (No, this isn't leading to a lawyers' joke.) One of them told me that their clerks are called on to index long depositions so that the lawyers can find relevant statements quickly. I thought I'd pass that tidbit along in case any of you want to pursue that kind of work. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:30:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Farr Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111246.FAA03662@mx3.u.washington.edu> Susan, My deepest sympathies to you! In November of '94, I ruptured my L4/5 disc, and went _far_ too long without decent treatment, and had the same kinds of symptoms you describe, but from hip to toe. Herniated discs DO get better, but it takes t i m e. I estimate that by now I'm 95% healed, and without surgery. I've had 5 epidural steroid injections, the last over a year ago. The things I found that help the most: -Stay faithful to your PT regimen. -When you get pain, STOP doing what causes the pain. And I mean NOW. -Try to reduce stress as much as possible. -Two alternative medicine treatments I found very helpful (recommended by a friend who ruptured a cervical disc in a car wreck) are St. John's Wort Oil and Cat's Claw Bark capsules. St. John's Wort oil is supposed to help regenerate discs. You rub it on the skin directly over the damaged disc, as much as you can get the skin to absorb, tissuing off the excess. Repeat 3X per day. Cat's Claw Bark is apparently a powerful anti-inflammatory, among all the other wonder claims. I take 1-9 500mg capsules per day, depending on pain. Cat's Claw Bark is available in most coops and natural food stores, even in Walgreens (!), but the highest quality is from natural food stores. I get my St. John's Wort oil by mail order from Quintessence in Madison, WI -- reply to me offlist for the phone # and address. Have courage -- you WILL get better. I've been there, and hopefully with the collective wisdom of this list, your recuperation will be quick. Liz Farr Los Lunas, NM On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some > help and suggestions. > > Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the > night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My > fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like > lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. > > Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I > have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent > at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain > is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a > lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy > and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. > > The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the > mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the > luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to > return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase > inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension > and spasms and more pain and loss of function. > > So, my questions are: > > 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what > do you think of them? > 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? > 3. Any hints for work habits? > 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > > My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk > with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right > angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty > high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new > executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight > back. No head support. > > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > > Would appreciate all suggestions. > > Sue Healy > Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re[2]: Ergonomics--again! A tech writer experienced the same problem. A slender woman who walked daily, she also worked intently at her desk all day. The doctor said her back problem and surgery were directly caused by sitting for long periods, and could have been avoided by getting up and stretching frequently. It seems that fluids don't circulate well in a constant sitting position. This is certainly not the cause of everyone's problems in this thread, but may be helpful to someone. Linda Cast ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Author: Elizabeth Farr at unixlink Date: 6/11/97 11:30 AM Susan, My deepest sympathies to you! In November of '94, I ruptured my L4/5 disc, and went _far_ too long without decent treatment, and had the same kinds of symptoms you describe, but from hip to toe. Herniated discs DO get better, but it takes t i m e. I estimate that by now I'm 95% healed, and without surgery. I've had 5 epidural steroid injections, the last over a year ago. The things I found that help the most: -Stay faithful to your PT regimen. -When you get pain, STOP doing what causes the pain. And I mean NOW. -Try to reduce stress as much as possible. -Two alternative medicine treatments I found very helpful (recommended by a friend who ruptured a cervical disc in a car wreck) are St. John's Wort Oil and Cat's Claw Bark capsules. St. John's Wort oil is supposed to help regenerate discs. You rub it on the skin directly over the damaged disc, as much as you can get the skin to absorb, tissuing off the excess. Repeat 3X per day. Cat's Claw Bark is apparently a powerful anti-inflammatory, among all the other wonder claims. I take 1-9 500mg capsules per day, depending on pain. Cat's Claw Bark is available in most coops and natural food stores, even in Walgreens (!), but the highest quality is from natural food stores. I get my St. John's Wort oil by mail order from Quintessence in Madison, WI -- reply to me offlist for the phone # and address. Have courage -- you WILL get better. I've been there, and hopefully with the collective wisdom of this list, your recuperation will be quick. Liz Farr Los Lunas, NM On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some > help and suggestions. > > Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the > night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My > fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like > lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. > > Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I > have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent > at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain > is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a > lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy > and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. > > The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the > mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the > luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to > return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase > inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension > and spasms and more pain and loss of function. > > So, my questions are: > > 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what > do you think of them? > 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? > 3. Any hints for work habits? > 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > > My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk > with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right > angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty > high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new > executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight > back. No head support. > > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > > Would appreciate all suggestions. > > Sue Healy > Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Larry E. Edmonson" Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Ergonomics advice should be obtained from experts in the relevant fields, not from indexers! Carolyn Weaver put it well when she emphasized "that there is no ONE correct solution for everyone." Anyone with "pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak" should consult medical experts, not wordsmiths. If I sound strident on this issue, it stems from frustration. I can still produce thousands of pages per year because I sought out, and followed, advice from a first-rate neurologist, an internist, a PhD ergonomist, and several physical therapists. By contrast, a friend who had symptoms far less severe than mine and who consulted only one incompetent MD, who was practicing outside his specialty, remains convinced that she is permanently disabled from doing any work whatsoever. You are all rational persons. Does it not strike you as strange that indexers could espouse the theory that authors should not index their own works because they are not expert indexers yet feel free to give medical advice without ever having seen the patient. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:34:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New indexing area, perhaps Indexing depositions seems to be not uncommon. A couple of summers ago, my pre-law (then) college student worked at our county attorney's office doing just that. Don't know if professional indexers ever get called upon in that way. But it's being done. Janet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:40:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re[2]: Ergonomics--again! Larry, You are correct about medical attention. However, consider this: If your friend with the incompetent MD had had the opportunity to read about your experience, she would have also asked the right questions and found the first-rate neurologist, etc. Your information, like the rest, is the best education tool that a group of people in a career path could share about hazards and corrective actions. As you can imagine, no one reading this thread will make the mistake of letting computer-related pain go untreated. Linda ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Author: "Larry E. Edmonson" at unixlink Date: 6/11/97 2:40 PM Ergonomics advice should be obtained from experts in the relevant fields, not from indexers! Carolyn Weaver put it well when she emphasized "that there is no ONE correct solution for everyone." Anyone with "pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak" should consult medical experts, not wordsmiths. If I sound strident on this issue, it stems from frustration. I can still produce thousands of pages per year because I sought out, and followed, advice from a first-rate neurologist, an internist, a PhD ergonomist, and several physical therapists. By contrast, a friend who had symptoms far less severe than mine and who consulted only one incompetent MD, who was practicing outside his specialty, remains convinced that she is permanently disabled from doing any work whatsoever. You are all rational persons. Does it not strike you as strange that indexers could espouse the theory that authors should not index their own works because they are not expert indexers yet feel free to give medical advice without ever having seen the patient. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:52:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Tortora Subject: Re: cervical troubles Sue, Last year I underwent surgery for a ruptured disc at C5. I also had bone spurs and a pinched nerve. In my case, the disc was pressing on my spinal cord and as you might imagine, there was great risk of paralysis. I am happy to report that the surgery was a great success, the numbness and pain are gone, and life is good again. The procedure kept me in the hospital only one night and at home I was in need of some help for about a week. But I was able to do many things. It was more of an annoyance than anything else. The pain was not too bad. My hip hurt (they take a piece of bone from there to replace the disc), but this too passed. If surgery is needed, do it and be free of pain. Just my 2 cents. Sue Tortora Tortora Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:03:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706121957.PAA17630@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Larry, I appreciate your strong feelings about seeking professional help for a serious neurological problem. I am only able to type this reply now because I did seek medical attention, because my HMO has a wonderful referral policy, because my primary physician ordered an MRI immediately and got me in to see a neurosurgeon at once. My future includes physical therapy, a referral to the Mayo Clinic's neurology unit pain clinic, and consults with whoever else I wish to see. My questions to fellow indexers were about indexing and the hardware used to do the job. And I thank everyone who was so kind to take the time to share their experiences with me. Sue Healy Florida Legislature ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:00:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: herniated cervical disc Physical therapy didn't help me one wit so I underwent cervical fusion (C5&6) 16 yrs ago. Fusion looked tight after 6 wks, but was 4 whole months before I was back to work. Fixed everything--no more pain, numbness, nausea, etc. Two associated results are sometimes problematic; restricted neck movement makes looking back over left shoulder a very conscious effort that engages my whole upper torso, and (surprise!) paralyzed vocal cords from the physical trauma of doing the neck fusion from the ventral/front side made relearning audible speeck a 3-yr project. The pain/tribulation trade-off was well worth it. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Embedded Index in Word97 In a message dated 97-06-11 13:32:01 EDT, you write: > In order to avoid = > such errors in the index shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to = > selected text (i.e. bookmarks)? That way, if the original bookmark is = > on one page and in subsequent editions/revisions it shifts to multiple = > pages the correct pages will be referenced. My gut feeling is that = > using bookmarks is the compulsive way to go, but it would take much too = > much time to select the text and insert the bookmarks for all the index = > entries. It is a balancing act. I do bookmark most of the entries that are page ranges, and haven't run into problems yet about the piece crashing because of too many of them, but I also haven't done this on anything larger than 150 pages. Keep a very clear eye on what you name the bookmarks, as duplicated names could cause you big problems. Be very careful as well to start them in the paragraph itself, and not in the space above the paragraph or including the page break symbol, as that will throw things off. I haven't done it yet in Office97 -- good LUCK! Blaze the trail and tell us what happens! Maybe they fixed some of this stuff and you will have no problems at all! Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:38:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Larry, in your note you remarked that >Anyone with "pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak" >should consult medical experts, not wordsmiths. The woman was in this pain while en route to the hospital. She wrote to us later not for a diagnosis, but for any anecdotal information we might have available. Personally, I think these forums are helpful in allowing a person to express their anxiety and frustration about business and well as personal issues. And I'd like a show of hands of anyone who has NEVER gotten good medical advice from a friend, from "take an aspirin" to "you'd better see doctor about that." Yes, we are all rational people and know that we have to weigh what is being said against who precisely is saying it. I listen to my doctors differently than I listen to my friends. But, believe me, I consult both. -- Lindsay ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:36:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! At 09:05 AM 6/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >I second, third, etc, etc Dick's recommendation of the Hermann Miller >Aeron chair. It wasn't in my budget, either, but once I'd tried it out in >the showroom I knew there wasn't much point in looking at anything else! >It's definitely the chair technology of the future. And although my neck >still isn't perfect, I can spend long days at the desk without those >twice-weekly trips to the chiropractor, and I'm rarely in as much pain as I >used to be. > >I did, however, manage to find it at a local office furniture place where >it was discounted--without the armrests (which I will add when cash flow >allows), I paid only $700. The armrests, I believe, are about $250. So be >sure to shop around. Also bear in mind that it comes in three sizes and mine was the largest. I especially like the armrests. They pivot horizontally so that I can swing them inboard when I'm sitting and outboard when I get up. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:02:46 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: More on book overproduction vs the Internet Anne Cleester Taylor writes: > You do have an interesting take on the importance of publishing. No > offense meant here--truly, but it seems quite egocentric. From my > perspective (academic librarian), new books do not push out last year's > models. So what if you didn't read all the new books in the field this > year? What if you read only those on "x" subtopic and your colleagues are > reading the "y" subtopic? I'm approaching this from two points of view. First, as an indexer of university textbooks, I find it hard to believe that a field like - say - organisational behaviour, changes so rapidly that a brand new edition of the introductory textbook is required every year: but of course publishers and authors make a buck from the new edition that they couldn't make if students were just trading second-hand copies between themselves. Secondly, as a fan of detective stories I find it sad and annoying that great classic mysteries from the 20's through to the 80's are pushed off the shelves by modern formula 'mysteries' about cats and recipes. It's not that people haven't chosen to read the classics: they simply don't have the choice, because the classics aren't available in bookshops, and even in libraries are hard to find. Gresham's Law applies to books as well as money (no, that's not John Grisham). As a result, many people's reading perspective doesn't extend beyond the month before last. > I