Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:47:53 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9701B" To: Julius Ariail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: stealth@ican.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was stealth@MAIL.ICAN.NET From: M Dunlop Organization: UNC {AG-EXP-L@VM1.NODAK.EDU}, AI-CHI @ SMTP {AI-CHI@LLL-LCC.LLNL.GOV}, AI-ED @ = SMTP {AI-ED@SUN.COM}, AI-KAPPA @ SMTP {AI-KAPPA-PC@mailbase.ac.uk}, AI-MEDI= C @ SMTP {AI-MEDICINE@MED.STANFORD.EDU}, AIBI-L @ SMTP {AIBI-L@ACADVM1.UOTT= AWA.CA}, AIDS @ SMTP {AIDS@CS.UCLA.EDU}, AIKIDO-L @ SMTP {AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PS= U.EDU}, AIL-L @ SMTP {AIL-L@austin.onu.edu}, AIRLINE @ SMTP {AIRLINE@CUNYVM= .CUNY.EDU},=0A AIRPLANE @ SMTP {AIRPLANE-CLUBS@DG-RTP.DG.COM}, AIUG @ SMTP = {AIUG@DEAKIN.EDU.AU}, AIX-L @ SMTP {AIX-L%BUACCA.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU}, AI= XNEWS @ SMTP {AIXNEWS@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU}, AJAX @ SMTP 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NET, SURINAME@CP.TN.TUDELFT.NL, SWEDISHBRICKS@ME.ROCHESTER.EDU, SYNCHRO-S@U= NIXG.UBC.CA, Sun.Security.Bulletins@SUN.COM, TAP-JAZZ@world.std.com, TBTF@w= orld.std.com, TCC-L@UHCCVM.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU, TE-TALK@IMC.COM, TECHSPIRIT-L@w= illiams.edu, TEXASFLOOD@DMU.AC.UK, TEXWOHIST-L@VENUS.TWU.EDU, THRILLPOWER@T= HEPOINT.COM, TIDBITS@ricevm1.rice.edu, TINCAN-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, TM-LIS= T@CS.UA.EDU, TODAY@pobox.com, TOP5@GITVM1.GATECH.EDU, TOPTEN@LISTSERV.CLARK= .NET, TOURISM@ESUSDA.GOV, TRANSCULTURAL-PSYCHOLOGY@VM1.NODAK.EDU, TRAVABLE@= SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, TRAVEL@FINANCENET.GOV, TRAVEL-L@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR, TRE= KWHO-L@UNIMT.MT, TRUMPET@ACAD1.DANA.EDU, TV2NITE-L@netcom.com, U2@delphi.co= m, UKRAINA@raven.cc.ukans.edu, ULTRA@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, ULTRALITE-LIST= @LISTS.BEST.COM, UNICTR-L@BYU.EDU, UNICYCLING@MCS.KENT.EDU, UNIX-LISTPROC@A= VS.COM, USDA.DVM@ESUSDA.GOV, USENET-ORACLE@CS.INDIANA.EDU, UUPC-ANNOUNCE@KE= W.COM, UUPC-INFO@KEW.COM, VA-HIST@LEO.VSLA.EDU, VAMPYRES@GUVM.CCF.GEORGETOW= N.EDU, VBALL@INTELLIGENCE.COM, VEG-PROD-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, VEGFOOD@CADSERV.CADL= AB.VT.EDU, VEGLIFE@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, VENTURE@CFONLINE.COM, VETINFO@LISTSERV.= NET, VICMUSIC@ozemail.com.au, VICTORIA@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU, VIDEO-WIRE@AI= S.NET, VINTAGE@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, VIRTED@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, VIRUS@LUCIFER.C= OM, VOCALIST@PHOENIX.OULU.FI, VULCAN-L@netcom.com, WALKERS@world.std.com, W= ALLSTREET@SHORE.NET, WAVE_LENGTH@BBS.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA, WELLNESSLIST@WELLN= ESSMART.COM, WH-SUMMARY@ESUSDA.GOV, WHATSNEW@RAHUL.NET, WHEELTOWHEEL@ABINGD= ON.ENG.SUN.COM, WHITEWATER@GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU, WINDSURFING@FLY.COM, WINNE= WS@MICROSOFT.NWNET.COM, WINSOCK-L@LISTPROC.NET, WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE@PAPA.IND= STATE.EDU, WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE-DIGEST@PAPA.INDSTATE.EDU, WINTCP-L@UBVM.CC.BU= FFALO.EDU, WISA@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU, WITTENBERG@CRF.CUIS.EDU, WLREHAB@VM1= .NODAK.EDU, WORDLY-L@EVBHORT.UOGUELPH.CA, WORDPLAY-L@LEVELS.UNISA.EDU.AU, W= ORLDGOV@TOMAHAWK.WELCH.JHU.EDU, WRITERS@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, WWW-ANNOUNCE@www0.c= ern.ch, WWW-BUYINFO@ALLEGRA.ATT.COM, WWW-CIS@SGS-THOMSON.IT, WWW-HTML@www0.= cern.ch, WWW-MANAGERS@LISTS.STANFORD.EDU, WWW-PROXY@www0.cern.ch, WWW-RDB@w= ww0.cern.ch, WWW-SECURITY@ns2.Rutgers.EDU, WWW-TALK@www0.cern.ch, WWW-VRML@= WIRED.COM, X-FILES@LISTS.PIPEX.COM From: "M Dunlop" Reply-To: stealth@ican.net Hi there!!!!! I'm looking for a broad range of people to answer this survey and e-mail this filled out form to: stealth@ican.net This survey is to help me complete my thesis for my Honours Bachelor of Science in Forestry. = When answering the yes/no questions please feel free to add your own comments. When answering the multiple choice please (X) the appropriate answer. Please answer the questions to the best of your knowledge. If you have any questions or further comments please feel free to e-mail me at the address above. 1. Where do you live? (Province and City) 2. What do you do for a living? 3. How old are you? 4. What was the last grade that you completed? 5. What is your definition of a forest ( )a) a source of timber ( )b) a source of food ( )c) a place for recreation ( )d) habitat for plants and animals ( )e) a source of economic gain ( )f) other please specify 6. Do you use the forest for anything? (yes/no) 6b. If yes, please list what you use the forest for (hunting, = fishing, hiking etc.). = 7. What is the greatest threat to the forest ( )a) logging ( )b) pollution ( )c) forest fires and insects ( )d) human intervention in nature ( )e) other please specify 8. Do you feel we are degrading the forest? (yes/no) 9. Do you feel we are protecting the forest? (yes/no) 10. Do you feel that we should be using the forest for economic = gain? (yes/no) 11. Do you think we are planting enough trees? (yes/no) 12. Do you think the forest industry or the government should be = responsible for planting trees (reforestation)? (yes/no) 13. What would you consider good reforestation practices ( )a) planting the same species of trees ( )b) planting different species of trees in the same area ( )c) allowing the forest to return naturally 14. Do you think the forest industry needs regulating by the government? (yes/no) 15. If yes, why? 16. Should we be managing our forests? (yes/no) 17. If yes, what do you consider good management policies ( )a) managing for economic gain ( )b) managing for recreation i.e. fishing, hunting ( )c) managing for a diverse forest i.e. different plants and animals ( )d) managing for conservation of the forest and it's resources ( )e) other please specify 18. Do you think the forest industry is doing enough to protect the environment? (yes/no) 19. Is there any harvesting/logging in your area? (yes/no) 20. Is the forest industry harvesting (cutting) too many trees, = just enough trees, or too few trees? 21. Do you think clearcutting is a good forest practice? (yes/no) 22. Do you think clearcuts are = ( )a) too widely used ( )b) used just enough = ( )c) not used enough 23. Should we allow harvesting in old growth forests? (yes/no) 24. If yes, who should regulate the amount cut ( )a) the forest industry ( )b) the government ( )c) the public 25. Do you think there are too many logging roads? (yes/no) 26. Do you think the logging roads give us too much access to = the forest? (yes/no) 27. If yes or no please explain. 28. If an educational program on forestry practices and the = forest industry were to become available in your area would you attend? (yes/no) A) if yes, why? B) if no, why not? 29. Would you become involved with the forest industry if public involvement was encouraged? (yes/no) A) if yes, why? B) if no, why not? 30. If you could attend a course/seminar on forestry what would you like to see covered? = THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. If you know any one else who wouldn't mind taking the time to fill out this survey I would really appreciate their input.. -------------------------------[ SMTP header ]-----------------------------= - | Return-Path: | Received: from esusda.gov (192.73.224.100) | by mhs.unc.edu (Connect2-SMTP 4.20A.0000021) | for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:37:40 -0500 | Received: from ican.net (ican.net [198.133.36.9]) | by esusda.gov (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP | id TAA19759; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:10:36 -0500 | Received: from Stealth(really [206.248.176.151]) by ican.net | via smail with smtp | id | for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:12:59 -0500 (EST) | (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Jul-10) | Message-Id: | Comments: Authenticated sender is | From: "M Dunlop" | To: 3COM-L%NUSVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, 3D@lbl.gov, | 3DBLASTER@CREATIVE-LABS.CO.UK, 78-L@CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL.EDU, | 90210@ferkel.ucsb.edu, 9370-L%HEARN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, | A.RICE%HAMPVMS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU, AACRL@UABDPO.DPO.UAB.EDU, | AAI@ST-LOUIS-EMH2.ARMY.MIL, AAVLD-L@LISTSERV.NET, ACADV@VM1.NODAK= .EDU, | ACCENTSERVER@NIS.COM, ACCESS-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM, ACCORDION@CS.CMU= .EDU, | ACCRI-L@UABDPO.DPO.UAB.EDU, ACROBAT@BLUEWORLD.COM, | ACSOFT-L@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU, ACT-UP@world.std.com, | ACTNOW-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, ADD-PARENTS@MV.MV.COM, | ADDICT-L@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, ADND-L%UTARLVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, | ADOPTEES@UCSD.EDU, ADVANC-L@LISTSERV.NET, | ADVISE-L%CANADA01.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, AE@SJSUVM1.sjsu.edu, | AECM-L@LOYOLA.EDU, AECUDEP-L@ADMIN.ACES.K12.CT.US, | AERONAUTICS@rascal.ics.utexas.edu, AEROSP-L@SIVM.SI.EDU, | AFAS-L@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, AFRICA-L@oraculo.lcc.ufmg.br, | AFRICA-L@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu, AFRICANA@wmvm1.cc.wm.edu, | AG-EXP-L@VM1.NODAK.EDU, AI-CHI@LLL-LCC.LLNL.GOV, AI-ED@SUN.COM, | AI-KAPPA-PC@mailbase.ac.uk, AI-MEDICINE@MED.STANFORD.EDU, | AIBI-L@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA, AIDS@CS.UCLA.EDU, AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PSU.E= DU, | AIL-L@austin.onu.edu, AIRLINE@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, | AIRPLANE-CLUBS@DG-RTP.DG.COM, 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BAPTIST@UKCC.uky.edu, BASEBALL-CHAT@solutions.apple.com, | BASQUE-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, BATAILLE@THINK.NET, BAUDRILLARD@THINK.N= ET, | BBS-L@SAUPM00.BITNET, BBSHOP@CRAY.COM, BCS_CAD-SIG@world.std.com, | BEASTIELIST@world.std.com, BEDROCK-LIST@netcom.com, | BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU, BEHAV-AN@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | BELIEF-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM, BEN@CUE.BC.CA, BENJAMIN@THINK.NET, | BENSON@world.std.com, BERITA-L@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu, | BERMUDA-LOVERS@world.std.com, BESTWEB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR, | BETTAS@ARIZVM1.CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU, BGRASS-L@UKCC.uky.edu, | BI-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU, BIBLE-L@wkuvx1.wku.edu, | BIBLIO@IRIS.CLAREMONT.EDU, BIBLIONUMIS-L@netcom.com, | BIBSOCAN@VM.UTCC.UTORONTO.CA, BIBSOFT@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU, | BICYCLE@LISTPROC.NET, BIFIDA-L@MERCURY.DSU.EDU, BIG-LAN@SUVM.SYR.= EDU, | BIGM-L@VM.SAS.COM, BIKECOMMUTE@igc.apc.org, | BIKECURRENT@SCUBA.ENG.SUN.COM, BIKEPEOPLE@DAIZU.UCSC.EDU, | BILINGUE-L@REYNOLDS.K12.OR.US, BIN-L@UKCC.uky.edu, BIND@uunet.uu.= net, | BIO-NAUT@IRLEARN.UCD.IE, 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CDN-FIREARMS-DIGEST@SFN.SASKATOON.SK.CA, CDN-NUCL-L@MCMASTER.CA, | CDR-L@TULSAJC.TULSA.CC.OK.US, CDROMLAN@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU, | CELIAC@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, CELLWALL@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | CERT-ADVISORY@CERT.ORG, CET-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, CET-NEWS@ESUSDA.GOV, | CFD@UKCC.uky.edu, CHANTER-LISTE@WIMSEY.COM, CHANTEUSE-LISTE@WIMSE= Y.COM, | CHELYFAN@GRENDEL.MO.NET, CHESSIE-L@IO.COM, CHIAPAS-L@profmexis.sa= r.net, | CHIHUA-L@PLEARN.EDU.PL, CHILE-HEADS@CHILE.UCDMC.UCDAVIS.EDU, | CHIMNEYS-L@aol.com, CHINESE-CDROM@RAHUL.NET, CHIRO-LIST@SILCOM.CO= M, | CHOCO@APK.NET, CICHLID-L@NRM.SE, CICSTALK@IMC.COM, CIDOC-L@NRM.SE= , | CIE-NEWS@UCI.EDU, CISA-L@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, CITE-JOBS-MG@ESUSDA.GO= V, | CLINICAL-PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGY@mailbase.ac.uk, COE@JPUNIX.COM, | COLORING@INFI.NET, COMMUNITY-MUSIC@MPD.TANDEM.COM, | COMP-GOPHER-DIFFS@EFF.ORG, COMP-ORG-EFF-NEWS@EFF.ORG, | COMP-ORG-EFF-TALK@EFF.ORG, COMPOST@LISTPROC.WSU.EDU, | CONG-REFORM@ESSENTIAL.ORG, CONSUMABLE@PILOT.NJIN.NET, | COSTELLO@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU, COUNTRY-MUSIC@world.std.com, | COUPLES-L@cornell.edu, CP@opus.hpl.hp.com, CPM-L@VM.ITS.RPI.EDU, | CPSR@GWUVM.GWU.EDU, CPSR-CPU@CPSR.ORG, CRYONICS@WHSCAD1.ATT.COM, | CRYPTO-L@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU, CSN@XC.Org, CU-TALK@USA.NET, | CURRENT-L@netcom.com, CWD-L@CYBERWERKS.COM, | DARWIN-L@raven.cc.ukans.edu, DATSUN-ROADSTERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET, | DAYBOOK@WWW.GAO.GOV, DECNEWS-PR@PA.DEC.COM, DECNEWS-UNIX@PA.DEC.C= OM, | DECUSERVE-JOURNAL@EISNER.DECUS.ORG, DEMOCRAT-ISSUES@CEDAR.CIC.NET= , | DEMOCRAT-ISSUES-DIGEST@CEDAR.CIC.NET, DENTALWEB@BITE.DB.UTH.TMC.E= DU, | DENTAL_CE@BITE.DB.UTH.TMC.EDU, DERBY@EKRL.COM, | DIALOG-INFO@WWW.DIALOG.COM, DIGERATI@AI.MIT.EDU, DIGVID-L@ucdavis= .edu, | DILBERT_LIST@INTERNEX.NET, DISASTER.RESEARCH@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU, | DISCUS-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, DJGPP@SUN.SOE.CLARKSON.EDU, | DKB-L@vm.ege.edu.tr, DOGS-L@teleport.com, DOM_BIRD@PLEARN.EDU.PL, | DREAMPOP-L@netcom.com, DS9-TALK@STARGAME.ORG, E-JOG@BCM.TMC.EDU, | EA@EAP.COM, EARTHANDSKY@LISTS.UTEXAS.EDU, EAT-L@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, | ECOCT-A@SEARN.SUNET.SE, ECOL-ECON@CSF.COLORADO.EDU, | EFF-ACTIVISTS@EFF.ORG, EFFECTOR-ONLINE@EFF.ORG, EFLIST@HTBBS.COM, | ELO-LIST@ANDREW.CMU.EDU, EMERGENCY-PSYCHIATRY@mailbase.ac.uk, | EMPATHY@uga.cc.uga.edu, EMU-RATITE@MAGIC.YOURNET.COM, ENCTALK@IMC= .COM, | ENVCEE@REC.HU, ENVIROETHICS@mailbase.ac.uk, ENVIRONMENT-L@cornell= .edu, | EPUBS-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, EQUINE-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU, ERS-REPORTS@ESUSDA.G= OV, | ESBDC-L@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, ESLCC@HCC.HAWAII.EDU, | ESPAN-L@taunivm.tau.ac.il, EXCEL-G@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM, | EXCEL-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM, EXOTIC-CARS@SOL.ASL.HITACHI.COM, | EXOTICA@XMISSION.COM, EXPLORE@LISTPROC.NET, F-BODY@SPDCC.COM, | FAB-L@UEL.AC.UK, FAB-UFO@LISTS.PIPEX.COM, FACSUP-L@UCONNVM.UCONN.= EDU, | FAMBUS-L@netcom.com, FASE@CS.UH.EDU, FATFREE@HUSTLE.RAHUL.NET, | FBPRO@MEADOW.MDSO.VF.GE.COM, FEM-BIBLIO@JPUNIX.COM, | FEMREL-L@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu, FERRET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU, | FICTION-L@LISTSERV.NSLSILUS.ORG, FIN-AUDITS@FINANCENET.GOV, | FIN-POLICY@FINANCENET.GOV, FIN-REPORTING@FINANCENET.GOV, | FIN-SYSTEMS@FINANCENET.GOV, FIN-TRAINING@FINANCENET.GOV, | FINLANDIA@PHOENIX.OULU.FI, FIRE-L@cornell.edu, FIRE-LIST@halcyon.= com, | FOODLINK@LISTPROC.WSU.EDU, FORDNATICS@LISTS.BEST.COM, | FORENSIC-PSYCHIATRY@mailbase.ac.uk, FROGJOBS@LISTPROC.NET, | FRUGAL-L@BEST.COM, FUNKY-MUSIC@MIT.EDU, GARBO-ANN@GARBO.UWASA.FI, | GARGOYLES@SARD.MV.NET, GARGOYLES-DIGEST@LISTS.MV.NET, | GENERAL@CSR.UNIBO.IT, GENETIC-DISEASE@SHAMASH.NYSERNET.ORG, | GENTALK@USA.NET, GEOSYN@CSN.ORG, GFULMED@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | GIANTS@solutions.apple.com, GIANTS-SCORES@solutions.apple.com, | GIANTS-TICKETS@solutions.apple.com, GIGGLES@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, | GOATSLITE@teleport.com, GOTHIC.LITERATURE@mailbase.ac.uk, | GOVSALES@FINANCENET.GOV, GRAHAM-PARKER@primenet.com, | GRANTS-L@GSUVM1.GSU.EDU, GREEN.TRAVEL@igc.apc.org, | GRUNGE-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, GUTSFRISBEE-L@MTU.EDU, H-AMREL@msu.= edu, | H-AMSTDY@UICVM.UIC.EDU, H-COSTUME@ANDREW.CMU.EDU, | HANDYMAN-HINTS@CEDAR.CIC.NET, HANG-GLIDING@VIRGINIA.EDU, | HARLEYS@THINKAGE.ON.CA, HDTVNEWSLIST@TELETRON.COM, | HEM-ONC@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, HEPROC-L@AMERICAN.EDU, | HEPV-L@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, HEY-JOE@ms.uky.edu, HILAT-L@LISTSERV.NE= T, | HINDU-D@ARIZVM1.CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU, HISTARCH@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, | HOLISTIC@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU, HOMEHLTH@USA.NET, | HONDA-PERF@RIPKEN.OIT.UNC.EDU, HORSE@world.std.com, HOTROD@DIXIE.= COM, | HOUSEBUN@GARCIA.COM, HPSCHD-L@ALBANY.EDU, HPUX-ADMIN@CV.RUU.NL, | HTMARCOM@RMII.COM, HTML-LIST@NETCENTRAL.NET, | HUDSON-R@MATRIX.NEWPALTZ.EDU, HUM-MOLGEN@NIC.SURFNET.NL, | HWG-MAIN@RPMDP.COM, HWG-MAIN-DIGEST@chezrob.rpmdp.com, | HWY61-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, I-TV@KNOWLEDGEWORK.COM, | IAML-L@freeside.nrm.se, IAWM@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU, IBDLIST@menno.com, | IDFORUM@yorku.ca, ILoveLucy@bolis.sf-bay.org, IMAGINATION@BOUN.ED= U.TR, | IMALL-CHAT@netcom.com, IMALL-L@netcom.com, IMPULSE@DSIGROUP.COM, | IMR@ISI.EDU, INCLASS@SCHOOLNET.CARLETON.CA, | INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU, INFINI-D@uafsysb.uark.edu, | INFO-DATABASIX@DIS.NL, INFO-GNU@PREP.AI.MIT.EDU, INFOCD@PERCH.NOS= C.MIL, | INTERNET-SALES@MMGCO.COM, INTERTEXT@INTERTEXT.COM, IRCHAT@CC.TUT.= FI, | IRIS-ON-LINE@SGI.COM, IRISHLAW@IRLEARN.UCD.IE, ISED-L@LISTSERV.SY= R.EDU, | ITFS-L@ENM.UMA.MAINE.EDU, IUPRESSL@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU, | IndiaWorld@INDIAWORLD.COM, Initial.Value@VM.STLAWU.EDU, | InterQuilt@CCMAIL.SUNYSB.EDU, J-JRNL@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, | JACKSON-ROANE.VA@SVIS.ORG, JAIN-L@INDIRECT.COM, JAVA-MAC@NATURAL.= COM, | JAVA-MAC-DIGEST@NATURAL.COM, JAZZ-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, | JEWELRY@MISHIMA.MN.ORG, JEWISH@ISRAEL.NYSERNET.ORG, | JOE-JACKSON@primenet.com, JUDGES-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, | JULIEMASSE-LISTE@WIMSEY.COM, JUST-L@BGU.EDU, | John.Denver.Internet.Fan.Club@delphi.com, K-D-LANG@world.std.com, | KAWASAKI@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU, KENNEL-L@netcom.com, | KFFIC-L@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, KFTLC-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU, | KIDS-ELEMENTARY@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIDS-INFANT@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, | KIDS-NEWBORN@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIDS-PRESCHOOL@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, | KIDS-PRETEEN@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIDS-TEEN@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, | KIDS-TODDLER@VM.EGE.EDU.TR, KIOSKS-L@LANL.GOV, | KISSARMY-DIGEST@wkuvx1.wku.edu, KITES@HARVARD.HARVARD.EDU, | KIWIMUSIC@athena.mit.edu, KNICKS@HALLUX.MEDSCHOOL.HSCBKLYN.EDU, | KSPACE-LIST@KSPACE.COM, LA-RADIO@HELEN.SURFCTY.COM, | LABORFILMS@COUGAR.COM, LANSRV-L@MARIST.EDU, | LANWORKS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, LATE-SHOW-NEWS@AMERICAN.EDU, | LAWLIBREF-L@ACC.WUACC.EDU, LEAFMULCH-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, | LEGALTEN@world.std.com, LIBIDAHO@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU, | LIBJOB@firefly.prairienet.org, LIMDEP-L@GSB.USYD.EDU.AU, | LINGUIST@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU, LINUX-ACTIVISTS@NIKSULA.HUT.FI, | LISTEN-2@BGU.EDU, LITHO-L@UNB.CA, LITHOBID@UNB.CA, | LLAJTA@IO.DSD.LITTON.COM, LOANSTAR@TWU.EDU, LOISCLA@VM.EGE.EDU.TR= , | LONGEVITY@vm.ege.edu.tr, LOST-CHORDS@MIT.EDU, LOTUS-CARS@netcom.c= om, | LSA-L@uga.cc.uga.edu, LSOFT-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.NET, LT-ANTIQ@vm.sc= .edu, | LTHRN-L@BGU.EDU, LUTE@CS.DARTMOUTH.EDU, LYCOS-USERS@MAIL.MSEN.COM= , | Leica.Cameras@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us, MAC-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, | MAC-MGRS@world.std.com, MACCHAT@VM.TEMPLE.EDU, MACMULTI@LISTSERV.= NET, | MACNET-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, MACPB-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, | MACPPC-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, MACSCRPT@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU, | MAE-ANNOUNCE@solutions.apple.com, MAE-BUGS@solutions.apple.com, | MAE-USERS@solutions.apple.com, MALAWI@UNH.EDU, | MANAGED-BEHAVIOURAL-HEALTHCARE@mailbase.ac.uk, MARBLE@SOUTHWIND.N= ET, | MARKET-L@mailer.fsu.edu, MARYLIB@UMAB.UMD.EDU, | MATERIALS-L@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK, MAZDA-LIST@ms.uky.edu, | MBISHOP+PFAFF@CCMAIL.SUNYSB.EDU, MEDIAWEB@VM.TEMPLE.EDU, | MEDITATION@UTMB.EDU, MEDPHYS@RADONC.DUKE.EDU, MELIBS-L@MAINE.MAIN= E.EDU, | MEMO-NET@VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU, MENIERE@EARS.COM, | MERCEDES-LACKEY@HERALD.CO.UK, MET-STUD@BIBO.MET.FU-BERLIN.DE, | METACARD-LIST@BEST.COM, METALLURGY-L@MTU.EDU, MIATA@JHUNIX.HCF.JH= U.EDU, | MILIEU@YOYO.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU, MINOLTA-L@RIT.EDU, MISTNET@VM.STLAW= U.EDU, | MM-RECIPES@ALEXR.DEMON.CO.UK, MOBILITY@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, | MOCAVES@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU, MOCHIN@ISRAEL.NYSERNET.ORG, | MODELRR@CADSERV.CADLAB.VT.EDU, MODERATENET@delphi.com, | MONKEES@primenet.com, MONOPOLY@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, | MOPAR@THOR.ISP.NWU.EDU, MOSAIC-L@UICVM.UIC.EDU, | MOVIES-SEIVOM@KINEXIS.COM, MR2-INTEREST@VALIDGH.COM, | MSDOS-ANN@SIMTEL.COAST.NET, MSP-L@ALBANY.EDU, | MTO-LIST@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU, MUD@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU, MULT-ED@GMU.EDU, | MUNINET@FINANCENET.GOV, MUSICA@PANTHEON.IT, MUSPRF-L@CMSUVMB.CMSU= .EDU, | Mike.Oldfield.and.his.music@VTCC1.CC.VT.EDU, | Muscular.Dystrophy.List@DATA.BASIX.COM, | Music-Research.Digest@CATTELL.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU, | NABOKV-L@UCSBVM.UCSB.EDU, NACUFS@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, NAMNET@LISSE.N= A, | NAT-WORK@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU, NATOSCI@STC.NATO.INT, | NATURECONNECT@store-forward.mindspring.com, NATURIST-ACTION@netco= m.com, | NEIGHBORHOOD-DANCE@world.std.com, NET-GUIDE@EFF.ORG, | NET-HAPPENINGS@IS.INTERNIC.NET, NETIQUETTE@ALBION.COM, | NETJAM@XCF.BERKELEY.EDU, NETSCAPE@IRLEARN.UCD.IE, | NETTRAIN@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, NETW4-L@BGU.EDU, NEWPROD@world.std.= com, | NEWS@FINANCENET.GOV, NEWTON-L@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, | NEXTSTEP@VMA.CC.ND.EDU, NIC-NEWS@u.washington.edu, | NIETZSCH@DARTMOUTH.EDU, NM@XMISSION.COM, NOCALL-LIST@netcom.com, | NORDIC-SKI@GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU, NOTGNU@netcom.com, | NPPA-L@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU, NRCH@USA.NET, NSTOOLS@NETSURF.COM, | NUMISM-L@vm.sc.edu, NURSERES@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, NorWord@GAC.EDU, | OB-GYN-L@BCM.TMC.EDU, OBJECTPAL-L@uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu, | OBLOMOV@RUG.NL, OCCASIONAL-SCREENFUL@netcom.com, OCD-L@VM.MARIST.= EDU, | OFFROAD@AI.GTRI.GATECH.EDU, OLDCATH-L@STOUR.IINET.COM.AU, | OLYMPUCK@MAINE.MAINE.EDU, ONLINE-NEWS@MARKETPLACE.COM, | ONO-NET@VM1.SPCS.UMN.EDU, OPERLIST@EFF.ORG, | OPHTHAL@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, OPTIMAL@VISION.EEI.UPMC.EDU, | ORA-NEWS@ONLINE.ORA.COM, ORIENTEERING@GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU, | OS2PRO-L@HEARN.NIC.SURFNET.NL, OUTCOMETEN@world.std.com, | OVARIAN-CANCER@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, OVR-CAVE@UKCC.uky.edu, | OXYFRESH@IST01.FERRIS.EDU, OZWINE@KOALA.CS.COWAN.EDU.AU, | PAGEMAKER@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU, PAIN-L@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, | PAS-LOVERS@QICLAB.SCN.RAIN.COM, PAUL-HARVEY-LIST@MBNET.MB.CA, | PAYROLL@FINANCENET.GOV, PCORPS-L@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU, PDF-L@BINC.= NET, | PEIRCE-L@UNICORN.ACS.TTU.EDU, PEN-PALS@fs1.MAINSTREAM.COM, | PERF-MEASURES@FINANCENET.GOV, PEROT@VM.MARIST.EDU, | PERSPECTIVE@DIGMEDIA.COM, PERU@CS.SFSU.EDU, PET-NEWS-L@netcom.com= , | PETBUNNY@UKCC.uky.edu, PGP-PUBLIC-KEYS@C2.ORG, PHOTO-3D@CSG.LBL.G= OV, | PHOTO-CD@INFO.KODAK.COM, PHOTO-L@CSUOHIO.EDU, PHYSICS@QEDQCD.RYE.= NY.US, | PIANO-L@UAMONT.EDU, POI-DIGEST@PRESTO.IG.COM, POL-ECON@SHSU.EDU, | POLIO@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, POP@JHUNIX.HCF.JHU.EDU, | POPULATION-BIOLOGY@NET.BIO.NET, POVGUI-L@vm.ege.edu.tr, | PRA@uoguelph.ca, PRACTICE@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, | PRISON-L@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, PRIVACY@FTC.GOV, PRLIST@HTBBS.CO= M, | PROCUREMENT@FINANCENET.GOV, PSYCHO-PHARM@netcom.com, | PSYGRD-J@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA, PSYUSA@aol.com, Party-of-Five@WWA.CO= M, | QUAKER-L@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu, 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SEC-LABELLING@DAEDALUS.DRA.HMG.GB, | SF-LIT@LOC.GOV, SHABBATSHALOM@ISRAEL.NYSERNET.ORG, | SINATRA@VM.TEMPLE.EDU, SLEDDOG@CSN.ORG, SLLING-L@YALEVM.YCC.YALE.= EDU, | SMAIL3-USERS@CS.ATHABASCAU.CA, SMAIL3-WIZARDS@CS.ATHABASCAU.CA, | SMALLFRUIT-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, SMARTLIST@INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE, | SNEAKERS@CS.YALE.EDU, SOREHAND@UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU, | SPANBORD@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, SPECTRUM-BOL@CompuServe.COM, | SPIRIT-L@AMERICAN.EDU, SPORTSCI@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ, | SPOUSE-SUPPORT@TEXSYS.COM, SPOUSE-SUPPORT-DIGEST@TEXSYS.COM, | STATE-COUNTY@FINANCENET.GOV, STHL-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL, | STOCK-PICKING@LISTSERV.NASHVILLE.NET, STOCKPHOTO@INFO.CURTIN.EDU.= AU, | STRANGE.FRUIT@GDB.ORG, STRAT-O-MATIC@CWIS.ISU.EDU, | STS-L@utkvm1.utk.edu, STUDENTLAWTECH@LISTSERV.LAW.CORNELL.EDU, | STUT-HLP@BGU.EDU, SUB-ARCH@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, SUNFLASH@SUN.COM, | SURGINET@LISTSERV.NET, SURINAME@CP.TN.TUDELFT.NL, | SWEDISHBRICKS@ME.ROCHESTER.EDU, SYNCHRO-S@UNIXG.UBC.CA, | Sun.Security.Bulletins@SUN.COM, TAP-JAZZ@world.std.com, | TBTF@world.std.com, TCC-L@UHCCVM.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU, TE-TALK@IMC.COM= , | TECHSPIRIT-L@williams.edu, TEXASFLOOD@DMU.AC.UK, | TEXWOHIST-L@VENUS.TWU.EDU, THRILLPOWER@THEPOINT.COM, | TIDBITS@ricevm1.rice.edu, TINCAN-L@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu, | TM-LIST@CS.UA.EDU, TODAY@pobox.com, TOP5@GITVM1.GATECH.EDU, | TOPTEN@LISTSERV.CLARK.NET, TOURISM@ESUSDA.GOV, | TRANSCULTURAL-PSYCHOLOGY@VM1.NODAK.EDU, TRAVABLE@SJUVM.STJOHNS.ED= U, | TRAVEL@FINANCENET.GOV, TRAVEL-L@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR, | TREKWHO-L@UNIMT.MT, TRUMPET@ACAD1.DANA.EDU, TV2NITE-L@netcom.com, | U2@delphi.com, UKRAINA@raven.cc.ukans.edu, | ULTRA@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU, ULTRALITE-LIST@LISTS.BEST.COM, | UNICTR-L@BYU.EDU, UNICYCLING@MCS.KENT.EDU, UNIX-LISTPROC@AVS.COM, | USDA.DVM@ESUSDA.GOV, USENET-ORACLE@CS.INDIANA.EDU, | UUPC-ANNOUNCE@KEW.COM, UUPC-INFO@KEW.COM, VA-HIST@LEO.VSLA.EDU, | VAMPYRES@GUVM.CCF.GEORGETOWN.EDU, VBALL@INTELLIGENCE.COM, | VEG-PROD-MG@ESUSDA.GOV, VEGFOOD@CADSERV.CADLAB.VT.EDU, | VEGLIFE@LISTSERV.VT.EDU, VENTURE@CFONLINE.COM, VETINFO@LISTSERV.N= ET, | VICMUSIC@ozemail.com.au, VICTORIA@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU, | VIDEO-WIRE@AIS.NET, VINTAGE@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, | VIRTED@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU, VIRUS@LUCIFER.COM, VOCALIST@PHOENIX.OUL= U.FI, | VULCAN-L@netcom.com, WALKERS@world.std.com, WALLSTREET@SHORE.NET, | WAVE_LENGTH@BBS.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA, WELLNESSLIST@WELLNESSMART.COM= , | WH-SUMMARY@ESUSDA.GOV, WHATSNEW@RAHUL.NET, | WHEELTOWHEEL@ABINGDON.ENG.SUN.COM, WHITEWATER@GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.ED= U, | WINDSURFING@FLY.COM, WINNEWS@MICROSOFT.NWNET.COM, | WINSOCK-L@LISTPROC.NET, WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE@PAPA.INDSTATE.EDU, | WINSOCK-L-ANNOUNCE-DIGEST@PAPA.INDSTATE.EDU, | WINTCP-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, WISA@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU, | WITTENBERG@CRF.CUIS.EDU, WLREHAB@VM1.NODAK.EDU, | WORDLY-L@EVBHORT.UOGUELPH.CA, WORDPLAY-L@LEVELS.UNISA.EDU.AU, | WORLDGOV@TOMAHAWK.WELCH.JHU.EDU, WRITERS@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, | WWW-ANNOUNCE@www0.cern.ch, WWW-BUYINFO@ALLEGRA.ATT.COM, | WWW-CIS@SGS-THOMSON.IT, WWW-HTML@www0.cern.ch, | WWW-MANAGERS@LISTS.STANFORD.EDU, WWW-PROXY@www0.cern.ch, | WWW-RDB@www0.cern.ch, WWW-SECURITY@ns2.Rutgers.EDU, | WWW-TALK@www0.cern.ch, WWW-VRML@WIRED.COM, X-FILES@LISTS.PIPEX.CO= M | Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:53:32 +0000 | Subject: PLEASE RESPOND EVERYONE PRIVATELY TO STEALTH@ICAN.NET | Reply-to: stealth@ican.net | Priority: normal | X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:16:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DLWITT@ALEX.STKATE.EDU Subject: stealth@ican.net Just asking. What is this long list of addressess and why is it on INDEX-L? dlwitt@alex.stkate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:46:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net At 07:16 AM 1/8/97 -0600, you wrote: >Just asking. What is this long list of addressess and why is it >on INDEX-L? dlwitt@alex.stkate.edu > Something fishy with this stealth@ican.net. Yesterday I got a lengthy survey questionnaire about U.S. forestry practices from some anonymous source who said he was a student working on a degree in forestry. Today, this latest load of crap downloaded something to my hard disk. Anyone know what's going on? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:52:48 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: IRS& deductions ------------6F8B202F2D120 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sonsie wrote: > William, my tax preparer (and other EAs) have told me that software is an oddball exception to the Section 179 rule. It =must= be depreciated over its useful life, which can be anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think you could probably 179 a $15 program, but Macrex or Cindex must be depreciated if you're going strictly by the IRS rules. Sonsie, I guess this shows how much tax people disagree. They may be wrong but I have been repeatedly told just the opposite for shrinkwrapped software - anything not custom programmed. As far as I know that has never been challenged since it is no different than a book to its user, even if it is "intangleble property". The original rules were designed for the code a company owned and developed, not the off-the-shelf day-to-day tools of a person's trade and are woefully out of touch with the reality of business. As to the less than $50-100 stuff, that is all expensed anyway, not 179'd. I have very little software that lasts 2 years, much less three, before an update makes its way onto my system. I can't wait until they do away with the IRS. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ------------6F8B202F2D120 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Sonsie wrote: 
> William, my tax preparer (and other EAs) have told me that software is an oddball exception to the Section 179 rule. It =must= be depreciated over its useful life, which can be anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think you could probably 179 a $15 program, but Macrex or Cindex must be depreciated if  you're going strictly by the IRS rules.
 
Sonsie,
 
I guess this shows how much tax people disagree. They may be wrong but I have been repeatedly told just the opposite for shrinkwrapped software - anything not custom programmed. As far as I know that has never been challenged since it is no different than a book to its user, even if it is "intangleble property". The original rules were designed for the code a company owned and developed, not the off-the-shelf day-to-day tools of a person's trade and are woefully out of touch with the reality of business.
 
As to the less than $50-100 stuff, that is all expensed anyway, not 179'd.
I have very little software that lasts 2 years, much less three, before an update makes its way onto my system. 
 
I can't wait until they do away with the IRS.
-- 
William Meisheid  "Thoughts still and always in progress"
Certified RoboHELP Training
WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve
Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com
wgm@sageline.com  410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456
 
------------6F8B202F2D120-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net At 10:46 AM 1/8/97 -0500, Richard T. Evans wrote: >Something fishy with this stealth@ican.net. Yesterday I got a lengthy >survey questionnaire about U.S. forestry practices from some anonymous >source who said he was a student working on a degree in forestry. Today, >this latest load of crap downloaded something to my hard disk. Dick, I got both the survey (completely inappropriate for this list...and for most of the lists that appeared in the cc list) and the three big text files. But from what I saw, 2 of the 3 were just huge "address lists" and the third was a repeat of the survey. I didn't notice that anything else was being downloaded onto my HD other than these messages. Prepare yourselves for an onslaught of copied messages as the hundreds of outraged recipients write back to the listowner and/or the sender about this nonsense. Many people can't figure out how to do anything but press the reply button...which means that all recipients of the first message will be inadvertently copied on all subsequent ones. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:42:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Indexing rates >If it takes two hours to do 50 pages and you need $30 per hour (which is >effectively about $15 per hour, considering freelancer overhead) to get by, >then 25 pages per hour dictates you need only $1.20 per page. If it takes >you 12 hours (and this has happened to me) then a bit over 4 pages per hour >dictates over $7.00 per page. I don't know how well this scheme works for brand-new indexers. New indexers work much slower than they will when they have more experience. If they charge the way you describe, their rates will have to be very high, and they won't be able to compete. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:42:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: INDEXING RATES >Really, Julia, you've got to be more assertive. Why didn't you ask her >to tell you how much the other person would be getting paid? Why didn't >they tell you that they thought your quote was a little steep--thus >paving the way for a little negotiating? If your friend's colleague had >a lot of experience with "this sort of thing," he should have known that >freelancers would rather negotiate for a price that would please >everyone rather than lose an assignment, all other things being equal. In my experience, authors do not (typically) negotiate. It may be in *our* interests to negotiate, but the author might not have a whole lot of incentive to do so and might not even *like* negotiating. Suppose the author has talked to 3 or 4 indexers and gotten 3 or 4 different rates. I think most people are going to take the lowest rate of those (and figure in whatever else they think is important to their decision, e.g., indexer's experience). I don't mean to say that we shouldn't try to negotiate for a job we really want, but I'm not at all surprised that this author didn't. Nor do I think the author is under any sort of obligation to tell the indexer what somebody else's rate is or to negotiate. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:26:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net At 08:51 AM 1/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >Dick, I got both the survey (completely inappropriate for this list...and >for most of the lists that appeared in the cc list) and the three big text >files. But from what I saw, 2 of the 3 were just huge "address lists" and >the third was a repeat of the survey. I didn't notice that anything else was >being downloaded onto my HD other than these messages. I use Eudora Lite, which automatically downloads attached files. (No way to turn it off.) This is indicated by a window with a "downloading" message and a progress bar. I got one of those windows when Eudora opened those messages, but other than that I can't find anything unusual on my hard disk. If no one else sees any attached files, then it may have been a quirk of Eudora handling unusually long message files. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:31:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Re: Indexing rates. Thanks (CHAT) In-Reply-To: <199701081748.MAA21843@server1.capaccess.org> To all those who replied to my query Thanks ever so much. I'm feeling a little less deflated now. :-) Regards Julia Marshall juliam@capaccess.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:37:02 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net I also received the attached files with the second message. I sent the whole thing back, attachments included. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:47:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Nagel/MasterWork Subject: Re: CHAT cats Rachel Rice wrote: >The biggest problem is hair in the CPU, Aha! I don't suppose any of you INDEX-L cat-owners know how to get feline fur out of a Syquest cartridge? I need to get at a couple of old files, and whenever I put the cartridge in the drive, I get this burning-wool smell and lots of funny noises. I am not making this up. Reply off-list, please, to avoid offending the dog and parakeet contingents. Thanks, K@ Kat Nagel, MasterWork Consulting Services Technical writing / Editing / Document design / Research "Knowledge only scratches at Truth, and Enlightenment is meaningless without a compassionate lap to enjoy it on." ___Alfred Birnbaum & Riku Kanmei, in <> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Grosshans Subject: Software I am the Technical Editor for a group of Technical Communicators. I am trying to find ways to lighten the load for these writers. One way would be for me to become the group indexer. Right now the writers are doing their own indexes, in a hurry at the end of each project, using the application (FrameMaker usually). Sometimes they have to do the index a chapter at a time because each chapter is sent off separately to be translated. The time constraints get bizarre sometimes. It's hard enough editing one chapter at a time but doing the index is worse. I am about to suggest that we buy Macrex or something else so that the indexes can be done independently from the projects. I would like to hear your professional opinions. Does this sound like the right way to go and what software do you prefer? TIA, Janice jmg@kodak.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: use of symbols at beginning of index >> At 04:08 PM 1/7/97 +1100, Jon and Glenda wrote: >> I indexed a book for beginners on English grammar etc, and decided to put >> symbols at the beginning so that if someone wanted to find out about, say, >> an ellipsis, they didn't have to know the name, but could look up the >> symbol. >> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:00:58 -0800, Sonsie said: S> This is a wonderful idea, and I'm sorry the editor didn't deem it of S> sufficient usefulness to retain. The best example of this I've ever seen is the "Programming Perl" book by O'Reilly & Associates. The index starts like this: The first part of this index lists symbols beginning with non-alphabetic characters. Since the sort order of these characters isn't ingrained in us the way the alphabet is, it is summarized below from left to right: ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / : ; < = > ? @ [ \ ] ^ _ ` { | } ~ For symbols consisting of a special character followed by an alphabetic (like @ARGV or -w), look under the alphabetic character. [... symbols starting with !] [... symbols starting with "] ... [start of A section] -A file test operator -a command line switch abbreviations ... -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 I didn't accept it. I received it. --Richard Allen, National Security Advisor to President Reagan, explaining the $1000 in cash and two watches he was given by two Japanese journalists after he helped arrange a private interview for them with First Lady Nancy Reagan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:14:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net I forwarded the STEALTH note back to its ISP, with the following text: >This is abusive, unsolicited e-mail to a private mailing list. Please >encourage your subscriber to refrain from this sort of posting. Thank >you. I sent my note to the following addresses: abuse@ican.net, webmaster@ican.net, and postmaster@ican.net. The abuse address bounced back as unknown, so the whole ISP is probably nothing but a spam factory, although their Web site (http://www.ican.net/) doesn't look too bad. I recommend that everyone who is concerned or annoyed forward the entire posting, making sure to include all headers (that is, do a FORWARD, not a cut-and-paste) to webmaster@ican.net. As someone else here mentioned, make sure you don't reply or forward to the entire list of other annoyed people! Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:35:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: use of symbols at beginning of index At 03:03 PM 1/8/97 -0500, Karl E. Vogel wrote: > The best example of this I've ever seen is the "Programming Perl" book >by O'Reilly & Associates. The index starts like this: Karl, this is a gem, which I have saved for future reference. Thanks for posting the sort order for symbols, which I had never known. And the organization of the index, IMO, is vastly improved by having that headnot and also having the As start with the symbols in correct position. This is so helpful to users! Thinking back on my lengthy experience with trying to find operators and such in computer books, I realize what a godsend some standard format would have been. Ordering of symbols is definitely NOT intuitive, nor is figuring out the location of a term such as -a (an operator in a DOS statement). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:35:48 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Software At 02:04 PM 1/8/97 -0500, Janice Grosshans wrote: >I am about to suggest that we buy Macrex or something else so that the >indexes can be done independently from the projects. I would like to >hear your professional opinions. Does this sound like the right way to >go and what software do you prefer? Janice, I think using indexing software would help considerably. But what might be even more important is to have one group member who is a trained indexer, into whose hands you can put the entire job (along with the great software). You mention elsewhere in your post that you were considering becoming the group indexer; I think that is a fine idea. Macrex or Cindex is really only as good as the operator...and a trained indexer will really be able to make those babies do wheelies. The time saved at the end stages of your projects will more than make up for the money spent on good software and training for whoever is going to do the work. And having ONE indexer (or more than one, but all operating as a group and from the same set of organizing principles, style rules, etc.) will greatly speed things up and improve the final product. Good luck to you in this endeavor. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:13:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net >> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:16:14 -0600, you said: I> Just asking. What is this long list of addressess and why is it on INDEX-L? Some twit is doing some bigtime spamming. I already forwarded his message to "postmaster@ican.net" with a polite request to stop it. If replying to the postmaster doesn't help, then the best way to deal with this is to just dump the messages when they come in. Replying is futile; people stupid enough to send that type of message don't have a clue that the Internet doesn't exist purely as a means to their ends. Mail-bombing the sender is a really BAD idea because two things can happen: 1. The Internet provider ends up getting so swamped with mail that they either shut down their mailhost or disable mail delivery, which hurts more people than just the TIQ (twit in question), and 2. The TIQ sometimes knows just enough about mail to, say, forward all replies to an innocent third party, which in turn hammers his or her machine into the ground. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 Guns don't kill people. Driving 40 in the fast lane kills people. --seen on a bumper sticker ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:37:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: stealth@ican.net Karl E. Vogel wrote: > Mail-bombing the sender is a really BAD idea because two things can happen: Agreed. I hope I didn't give the impression that I was calling for mail bombing in my last post. Mailing the posts back to the _postmaster_, not the original sender, is what I, like Karl, suggested. (Just feeling a little paranoid and thought I'd clear it up :-). Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Indexing rates I STRONGLY DISAGREE with Dick Evans (nothing personal, Dick. I usually agree with what you post) that the going rate for manuals is $3-$3.50. I think that is the high end for academic books. My husband is charging $3.50-$3.75 for textbooks these days with much success. I charge $5-$6 per page for technical manuals and business books or about $45-$50/hour. This is no more than tech writers are paid. Obviously, I'm doing high-end indexing and not quick-and-dirty. There are clients who don't hire me, but I have enough clients who do. Perhaps it makes a difference that I live on the east coast. As for negotiating, you can let the client know that you're willing to negotiate. Ask how the client is paying: out of pocket, a grant, the press? Say "I think $4 is fair. Can you afford that? Since this is my first job, I'm willing to negotiate." I've had many clients come back to me after a bid to say, The author will only pay x. Whether an experienced indexer accepts that money is a different matter. I do not try to get every job: I can't afford to take jobs that don't pay enough. Yes, there is always some gnome out in Montana working for $10/hour. As far as I'm concerned, the gnome can corner the $10 market entirely. Don't forget that freelancers need hundreds of thousands in savings in order to retire. The original question: Is $4/page high? For academic books, yes. These books do not usually make a profit, and people work for very low rates. I've posted my take on the going rates in different market sectors to the MA ASI Web site. I know I already mentioned the site during Christmas, but it's quicker to list it again than to apologize for repeating myself. If you want to look at it, Julia, it's http://www.tiac.net/users/marisol/susanh.htm Regards, Susan Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Software At 12:35 PM 1/8/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Macrex or Cindex is really only as good as the operator...and a trained >indexer will really be able to make those babies do wheelies. Using either package is an excellent idea, but to get full benefit you really need to learn one and keep in practice. That works best if you have a "designated indexer" who does all the indexes and uses the indexing software regularly. Better to have one person creating six indexes per year than six people only doing one each per year. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:16:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing rates Julia Marshall asks about indexing rates, especially indexing from a typewritten manuscript. Julia, you were fortunate not to get the indexing job under those conditions. You would have had a headache with it and probably would have lost money. I had a much smaller job where changes were made on the final proofs requiring a lot of extra work. Fortunately, the contract stated that any changes would incur an additional charge based on an hourly rate. Better luck next time. I, too, am trying to market myself. No easy job. If there are any indexers out there who could use some help, I am available. Thelda Bertram ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:28:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Indexing rates At 05:13 PM 1/8/97 -0500, you wrote: > I STRONGLY DISAGREE with Dick Evans (nothing personal, Dick. I usually >agree with what you post) that the going rate for manuals is $3-$3.50. I >think that is the high end for academic books. My husband is charging >$3.50-$3.75 for textbooks these days with much success. I charge $5-$6 per >page for technical manuals and business books or about $45-$50/hour. I'll really be glad when the ASI rate survey comes out. I keep hearing discrepancies like this, but I *never* see one first hand. I do about 50 titles per year with several of the biggest software names in the business and my *top* rate is $3.75 per page. Just last week I was approached to do a Windows NT LAN Administrator's Guide for $2.00 per page. (I refused.) What do you mean by "technical manuals"? I'm talking about general-purpose computer books you would find on the shelves of Barnes & Noble. Are you perhaps dealing with highly technical, corporate stuff? I don't doubt you are getting those rates (more power to you) but I do doubt that they are representative. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Indexing rates >What do you mean by "technical manuals"? I'm talking about general-purpose >computer books you would find on the shelves of Barnes & Noble. Are you >perhaps dealing with highly technical, corporate stuff? I don't doubt you >are getting those rates (more power to you) but I do doubt that they are >representative. > Dick, I think you have hit on the difference here: Manuals published by computer companies vs. technical books published by publishing companies. I do find that computer companies (in the Boston area) pay much more money than publishing houses. I've had three clients this season offer $45/hr before asking my fee: 2 computer companies and a financial institution. Computer companies around here are used to paying that much for freelance writing and editing. I only have one publishing client who pays $5/page, a business book publisher (New York). But I've also gotten a number of publishers to pay more than usual (3.50-3.75), because I didn't give ground. My point in publicizing my fees is not to pat myself on the back, but to let other indexers know that such fees are possible and that tough negotiating does help, in the hopes that everyone will raise their fees. Otherwise, we're all undercutting each other. I have the feeling that a lot of indexers are very timid about negotiating. For example, you have to raise fees every year to keep up with inflation, but I've spoken with indexers who find that so difficult that they only raise fees with new clients and not with long-term clients. So ...January is a good time to let your clients know that your fees have gone up, even just 5%. I don't think any client will drop a good indexer because the rate went from $2.50 to $2.60 or 2.65. Just my $.02 worth. Susan Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. I am a dedicated CINDEX user who is going to be teaching an indexing class soon. In order to present indexing software fairly and objectively to the students, I would like to hear from people who have used both CINDEX and MACREX, as well as other dedicated indexing software (including CINDEX for Mac), with some discussion of pros, cons, and similarities of each. I know that Linda Fetters wrote that booklet called "A Guide to Indexing Software," which I have. I would just like to get others' opinions, too, so if you have the time, please drop me a line. Thanks. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Data pens Hello, everyone, Recently an ad appeared in one of the genealogy groups I subscribe to for something called a data pen, a very small scanner. The user uses the pen as though underlining words or phrases while the data pen using OCR software reads it into the computer. I did a quick search on Yahoo and Dejanews and there seem to be three brands: Iris, Primax, and Rivax (the last two sound like some sort of medicine, no?), but not a lot of comments or evaluations. Have any of you ever heard anything about these data pens? (They seem to cost $299 list, but $265 through a couple of businesses). I have often thought it is quicker to type small amounts of text rather than scanning them because of the delay between scanning and having the text pop up on the computer screen, but then I have an old handheld scanner (Caere's Typist, which would not recognize one line or several words anyway, only several lines at a time) and an old computer too. But if the scanned text with a data pen appeared "instantly" without a delay of several seconds, well, then am curious as to whether anyone thinks using a data pen might speed indexing up, esp. proofreading (one of my greatest weaknesses). Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:56:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jane Odland Organization: Sirs, Inc. Subject: SOFTWARE Good morning everyone, I am an indexer of articles for an educational publisher, SIRS, Inc., and new to the discussion group. I have had no exposure to indexing software and would like to know if there are any PC-based programs which would index articles according to Library of Congress subject headings. Any information will be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jane Odland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:02:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Data pens At 08:59 AM 1/9/97 -0500, Sam Andrusko wrote: >I have often thought it is quicker to type small amounts of text >rather than scanning them because of the delay between scanning and having >the text pop up on the computer screen, but then I have an old handheld >scanner (Caere's Typist, which would not recognize one line or several >words anyway, only several lines at a time) and an old computer too. But >if the scanned text with a data pen appeared "instantly" without a delay >of several seconds, well, then am curious as to whether anyone thinks >using a data pen might speed indexing up, esp. proofreading (one of my >greatest weaknesses). Sam, at first glance this sounds like a great idea...and it might well be, if you are working on a revision of an index, or an index for a second edition of a book with a good first-edition index. You could then import, intact, a number of lines of index text. However most of my work is first indexes, and since a lot of those entries must be flipped or otherwise edited, I can't see myself using such a pen on the typeset pages and finding it very useful. But that may just be me. (I'd sure love to have such a thing for other purposes, such as creating a mailing list from a telephone book or grabbing direct quotes from a magazine to import into an article I'm writing.) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:44:12 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: data pens 9 January 1997 I don't have any experience with data pens either, but once did the index to a large bibliography and would have loved to have had a data pen simply to enter all the titles. --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:47:40 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. Cynthia: I have taught indexing using CINDEX (student version), and I found it useful to present information on some of the other software, but inrealistic to try to teach more than one software program in a semester. The students just get the hang of CINDEX and indexing after 8-10 assignments with it (each time they learn new commands and some of the special features). That's just my experience, of course, but I'd caution you to pick one software program and structure the indexing topics to coordinate with lessons on the program commands. Otherwise, I think it can be very confusing for the students (unless we are talking about teaching indexers to use software... my experience is with library science students with little or no indexing background). Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:57:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BethJT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Index Critique I tried sending this yesterday but had it bounced back for some reason. I know this is a little belated but I think it is an important issue. Thanks Beth >>> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:37:20 -0800, Sonsie said: S>> I apologize most sincerely for my lapse in judgment that occurred when I S>> publicly critiqued a book's index and also publicly responded to the person S>> who requested the book's exact title. I had no intent to harm; I wrote my S>> comments from the perspective of a user (and only secondarily as an S>> indexer). and then Karl E. Vogel said: > Sorry, but I have to jump in here. We need something like a "hold harmless" > clause for this list. I think it's quite appropriate to discuss whether or > not an index works for the user. I must agree with Karl and Sonsie. It is appropriate to critique published work on the list. Sonsie made specific and constructive criticisms of the index in question (ie, difficulties with terminology and not enough double posting). Which is a far better than saying something like: "this is a rotten index" or "you are a rotten indexer" without specific comments. Every writer (and that includes indexers) must be able to separate written word from self and criticism of work from criticism of self _and_ to withstand a little honest criticism. If we can't honestly and openly critique indexes here then were can this happen? Oh we could be a tiny bit more tactful if you want but this is definitely an appropriate place for such discussions to take place. Elizabeth Tudor (aka Troublemaker Extraodinaire) Tudor Indexing Houston, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:55:13 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: [DLWITT@alex.stkate.edu: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc.] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: DLWITT@alex.stkate.edu (unknown) To: becohen@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CINDEX vs. MACREX, etc. Date: Thu, 09 Jan As an indexing instructor here in St. Paul I entirely agree with Barbara Cohen about trying to teach more than one indexing program in a semester. It is simply too difficult to try to get students to absorb indexing principles, learn a new software program, and create a thorough index, which is the main assignment in my syllabus. It is a dilemma, because I think both Macrex and Cindex are both good programs and both deserve attention. What I do is teach and demonstrate Cindex, since that is what I know best. I have a copy of the Macrex demo loaded in the computer lab, with manual available on reserve. (Obviously Cindex is available too). When I sense some of my students are very computer literate, I urge them to try both demos. I accept the final assignment in either program. I also require my students to subscribe to Index-L for the duration of the course. If any discussion occurs about either program or other programs on the list, I generally incorporate it into that week's class discussion. At the beginning of each term I generally do a literature search for any indexing issues that have come up, especially any new software developments. Hope this helps. Diana Witt (dlwitt@alex.stkate.edu) -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages >> On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:06:43 -0800, >> "Indexer's Discussion Group" said: W> I'm in the process of pulling material together to do a home page and have W> several questions to ask. I'd appreciate comments on the following from W> anyone who has already gone through the process. W> 1) Which books do you recommend to use as a text? I use these quite a bit: "Running a perfect Web site with Apache", ISBN 0-7897-0745-4. This one is more for someone who's going to run their own Web server on a Unix machine, but it has LOTS of stuff on HTML editors, Netscape extensions, etc. Comes with CD. "HTML and CGI Unleashed", published by Sams. This is definitely for the person creating the web page (as opposed to the system administrator). Also comes with CD. W> 2) Did you start out with just one page--or several pages linked together? I started with one simple page, but I use a CGI script to generate my home page so I can display different things to people depending on where they're located or who they are. I have much tighter control over both output and system security this way. W> 3) Did you use a text editor or a word processing program to do this? Text editor. VI to be exact. W> 4) Which would you recommend? I like text editors because they don't get underfoot. I'd suggest starting out with an editor to get familiar with the underlying HTML that makes up your page. This definitely gives you the finest level of control. After you start getting sick of typing HTML tags, consider getting something intended specifically for Web pages, like HotDog. You still see the tags and you have great control over the output, but it automates all sorts of stupid things that a text editor won't. W> 5) Also, is it proper in a home page to include links to outside interests? Your page, your call. If you think it's worth the time, you could separate outside links into "Professional" and "Other". -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 The majority and I have both had the good sense to avoid each other as much as possible. We have both benefitted. --James Boe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:53:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Critiques, chats and Index Quality: A final Word (long) All - This is just a note to set some things straight, and not to start and/or prolong a flame war. First, I want to commend Sonsie for the thoughtfulness and gentleness of her response to the brouhaha about critiquing indexes and indexers. I am sure that it was not all that easy to write or to post. Very gracefully done. Second, I would like to add a point or two to my original posting about critiquing indexes. Some respondents have expressed an apparent indifference to public criticism, seeming to take the position that all criticism merely is an opportunity to improve one's work. No tender-ego wimps, they! I disagree. The question here seems not to be how one deals with criticism, but whether Index-L should be a forum for specifically-directed criticism of an identified colleague's work. I don't believe that it should, because I don't believe that we have any way objectively to assess a given index as good or bad work. (Before you flare, please read on.) Indexing is a creative act, and we all have different views of how to measure quality. An index that doesn't work for one reader will work beautifully for another reader with a different viewpoint and different subject sophistication. The best indexes doubtless combine balance, and harmony, and functionality, but we must be very careful when making public judgments. There are as many excellent indexes as there are readers who like them, and as many poor indexes as there are readers who are frustrated by them. And they all can be the same index! Perhaps we can say that, for a given index, if a very large percentage of readers find it useful and a very small percentage of readers find it frustrating, it is a good index. Functionality, not aesthetics, probably is the ultimate criterion. But functionality alone gives us a farm tractor. Aesthetics alone gives us the Pieta. Combine them and one has Chartres. One probably should strive to keep the useful/frustrating ratio as high as possible but that is virtually impossible to quantify. As the Marshall of France said in Henry V, when told how close the English were camped, "Who has measured the distance?" Experience has shown that certain established guidelines are likely to be helpful in writing a useful, functional index and therefore that is what we teach in indexing classes and what we read in indexing texts. But we really have very little feedback as to the measurable usefulness of any index because so much depends upon the individual user, and criteria for measurement are so difficult to establish (although work has been done on this). People either like it or they don't. If the editor likes it we are likely to get another assignment. If the editor doesn't like it we can argue that he/she is an idiot, and that the index is wonderful, but we are unlikely to win. But whether or not a colleague likes an index seems to me to be quite beside the point. In this respect indexing differs from, say, civil or aeronautical engineering. In these disciplines poor work tends to be self-revealing: the building collapses or the airplane crashes. But we really must remember that these things that we are taught, these indexing guidelines, are just that: Guidelines. They are not hard-and-fast, God-given Commandments that can be broken only at the indexer's peril, even if they appear in official USDA courses and/or in some of our revered indexing textbooks. We really don't want to lose ourselves in arguments over how many cross-references can dance on the head of a pin. So, to expose another indexer to public criticism simply because one is personally uncomfortable with his/her index seems unwarranted unless there is some compelling reason to do so. We must be very clear about criticism on Index-L. None of us probably would write directly to a colleague's editor saying that in our opinion the index in question was quite poor. We recoil from that, don't we? But many of us seem to have no problem with criticizing a colleague's work in a public forum to which many editors (clients) doubtless subscribe. This is not a question of bruised egos; it is a very pragmatic question of personal integrity, and of not gratuitously placing a colleague in any jeopardy merely because we feel a need to express a personal opinion about the manner in which he or she is earning a living. It is not difficult to imagine that an editor might have second thoughts about hiring a freelancer whose work has just been trashed by a jury of his/her peers. We should not arrogate to ourselves the right publicly to pronounce judgement on a colleague's work and then simply step away, taking no responsibility for the possible consequences of our actions. I accept criticism from editors, of course, but this is part of the iterative process of working cooperatively with clients. I have no problem with discussing/arguing about an index over a platter of pasta, coffee, and two or three tortoni. But I do not expect it to arise spontaneously from another indexer, for no special reason, in a public venue. It seems to me that there remains much leeway for legitimate criticism on Index-L. Not by saying "Mary Smith's index to The Physics of Condensed Matter (Wiley, 1998) is a dog," but by using carefully screened, anonymous examples (even citing specific entries if necessary). I cannot imagine what useful lessons would be lost by ensuring that specific titles, publishers, and indexer's names were omitted. But keep this in mind: Obviously ludicrous blunders are easy to poke fun at, but there is little tutorial value in this. The really difficult problems are likely to be much beyond simple, casual, online nitpicking, and would require careful and thoughtful analysis IN CONCERT WITH the indexer who wrote them. We really have no idea whatsoever (i.e., not a clue) of the constraints under which the subject index was written. There are no qualifying disclaimers at the head of an index. We really don't know if it is a blunder or a magnificent adaptation to difficult editorial/time constraints. The index in question might well be an example of the best professional work done under impossible circumstances, and should be used as an object lesson in indexing classes. We can't tell from the outside looking in. Many, many indexers have complained bitterly (and legitimately) about how their careful work was mutilated before it ever saw light at the back of the book. Do we really know that the index we are critiquing is the index that was written? Should we be criticizing the indexer, the editor, or the press? Is the indexer the villain or the victim? That is the problem when one criticizes an index with attribution. And it is terribly unfair. How can an indexer possibly restore his/her reputation after being trashed on Index-L for a printed index that might not be at all like what originally was written, or that was done under impossible constraints? Should we post plaintive notes saying "Gosh, folks, please don't blame me! It's not my fault"? Should we publicly argue, getting right down to a bitter cat-fight that would be, to put it mildly, highly unprofessional? Should we bite our lips and resent the criticism, thus damaging long-standing friendships? Should we heap ashes on our heads and say "You're right! that was a poor index! Thanks!"? Would any of us want to defend ourselves by publicly blaming a client? How many of these brave critics would want to be placed in such a no-win situation, where you're damned if you say nothing, and damned if you say "Yes, but....."? So much for the omniscient critic. By the way, this also is true for the so-called "professional" reviews that one sees in, for example, The Indexer. And now, another subject: I believe that much of what is said on Index-L should be said off-list. Not because I am a curmudgeon, or because people "are not allowed" to express personalities in their postings. Not at all. But there is a definite sense of professional focus and.... well.... let's say professional dignity that I believe is essential for freelancers who expect to be taken seriously. That is our professional persona. It seems to me that there should be some irreducible reticence, some sense of privacy, that is important to all professionals (and really to all people). If we go around chatting, rechatting and re-rechatting about cats and views in a professional forum like Index-L we surely risk appearing, if not rather frivolous, at least unfocussed.. Not because we love cats or beautiful vistas, but because we are overdoing a good thing in the wrong place, and to some observers that might have certain implications regarding our judgment. That kind of warm, cuddly "My kittycat loves to surf the net. She is on http://www.meow.com. And this Christmas we decorated the tree with hairballs! Gee!" is perfectly appropriate in a chat room or other venue such as IRC (Internet Relay Chat). The point isn't to stifle personal expression or friendly conversation; rather, it is to maintain some sense of restraint and appropriateness lest we all drown in a sea of Marshmallow Fluff. Ah, well... Best wishes, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:14:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Index Critique >If we can't honestly and openly critique indexes here then were can this >happen? Oh we could be a tiny bit more tactful if you want but this is >definitely an appropriate place for such discussions to take place. I would like to add that even if we take into account that an indexer might have been under some crazy constraints imposed by the publisher, if the resulting index is flawed, the criticism is still valid. If a given index is hard to use, it's hard to use, regardless of the reasons it was done that way. I for one appreciated reading Sonsie's detailed explanation of what she didn't like about it (breaches of etiquette, if any, aside). Usability of indexes and diversity of readers is very pertinent here. On a related topic, computer manuals take a lot of criticism/ribbing for the quality of their indexes. But have we ever identified other genres/fi