From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:54:41.62 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9707A" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:33:00 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9707A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:26:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: straw poll My crystal ball seems to be a bit cloudy these days! :-) One of the challenges I face in planning the 1998 ASI Annual Conference is "guestimating" the number of attendees ... so, at the risk, of inundating my e-mail account with a gazillion messages, I'd like to ask that you take a minute or two to respond to a few questions. Please send your answers directly to me at 76620.456@compuserve.com (in other words, do not post your response to INDEX-L). 1. Are you planning to attend the 1998 ASI Annual Conference, which is scheduled for May 13-16, 1998, in Seattle? If YES, please respond to the following questions. If NO, we'll miss you! 2. Will you have family or friends with you in Seattle? 3. Will you plan to spend some personal vacation time in the Seattle area before or after the conference? 4. Would you like to share a room with someone at the conference? And, if so, would you like to make those arrangements on your own, or would you prefer to make that request on your registra- tion form and be assigned a roommate? 5. If you have been to other annual conferences, please let me know if you would be willing to be a "buddy" to a first-time conference attendee. 6. And, finally, since I have your attention, please feel free to let me know what speakers or topics you would like to see at the 1998 Annual Conference. *** I'm looking forward to hearing from you and to planning a conference that will give you information and skills that enhance your professional growth for years to come! :-) Happy indexing .... Lori ********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Vice President/President-Elect, American Society of Indexers Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:27:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Productivity This is an addendum to my 1998 ASI Annual Conference Call for Proposals, which I posted a few weeks ago. I would like to see proposals for presentations on "Productivity Tips, Tricks & Techniques" that would be beneficial for experienced indexers as well as new indexers. When you submit your proposal, please include the following information: 1, Your name, address, phone/fax numbers, and e-mail address 2. A brief bio (less than 150 words) that describes your qualifications and experience 3. Format (select one of the following): Presentation, Panel discussion, or Workshop 4. Title of your proposed presentation, panel discussion, or workshop 5. If you are proposing a workshop, indicate how long it will be (for example, it may be 2 hours, 4 hours, or 8 hours) 6. Equipment requirements 7. A one-page abstract describing your presentation, panel discussion, workshop, or group activities (if any). Presentations and panel discussions should be 20-45 minutes and should allow 10-15 minutes for questions from the audience. Workshops may be between 2 and 8 hours in length. Submit proposals to: Lori Lathrop '98 ASI Annual Conference P.O. Box 3065 Idaho Springs, CO 80452 The deadline for submitting proposals is September 1, 1997. Acceptance letters will be sent by November 1, 1997. ********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:44:36 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Woodruff Subject: Not Really Indexing? In-Reply-To: <867723075.0925686.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> As a relative oldie in the field of indexing (though a newcomer to the wonders of cyberspace and Index-L!) my advice is "Beware The Job Where Someone Else Marks Up Text". It is never as straighforward as it sounds. There are bound to be complications..inconsistent choice of entries ( a name marked up in one place, not in another), sudden inclusion of non-names or concepts.. inconsistent spelling of the same name..etc. etc. The classic problem is the "we've marked the text but ran out of stamina after page 344.." Do put in a bid, but take into consideration that this is not indexing or word-processing, its indexing at its most frustrating..and charge realistic rates. Good luck! From Karin Woodruff, Indexer (UK). -- Karin Woodruff, Indexer Tel/Fax: (+44 116) 270 2661 e-mail: woodruff@bison.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: straw poll > 1. Are you planning to attend the 1998 ASI Annual Conference, > which is scheduled for May 13-16, 1998, in Seattle? If YES, > please respond to the following questions. If NO, we'll miss > you! But of course!! > > 2. Will you have family or friends with you in Seattle? No. > 3. Will you plan to spend some personal vacation time in the > Seattle area before or after the conference? Maybe a day before. > 4. Would you like to share a room with someone at the conference? > And, if so, would you like to make those arrangements on your > own, or would you prefer to make that request on your registra- > tion form and be assigned a roommate? Probably not. > 5. If you have been to other annual conferences, please let me > know if you would be willing to be a "buddy" to a first-time > conference attendee. Since I'm not an indexer and I'll be exhibiting, probably not a good thing for me. > 6. And, finally, since I have your attention, please feel free > to let me know what speakers or topics you would like to see > at the 1998 Annual Conference. I'm thinking on this vis-a-vis your CFP. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:25:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Back in touch with the "Real" World You must have heard a yell for joy a short while ago. I finally had an email problem resolved, and can now talk with everyone in the real world! If anyone sent me email in the past 4 days to which I didn't respond, try again today. Can someone tell me how to switch from digest mode to individual posts? I can't seem to find the instructions to do this on my instruction sheet. Thanks, in advance. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Wishing that every week could have a 3-day weekend in it!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:21:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: New to List--need Help: employee pay rate equivalent In-Reply-To: <199706302125.OAA03098@mx4.u.washington.edu> I just wanted to reinforce the point about $50,000 freelance equals $25,000 net. This has been my experience too. I also would like to note with respect to the (I believe it was) $1.80 per abstract when one can do at most 12 or so per day. That is not quite $11.00 an hour net. By comparison, secretarial temping (which I do when I get hard up) in my area (Seattle) is $9.45 to $11.00 an hour. The upshot is that a net of $11.00 an hour for something highly technical and in an area where one may not be able to output at the max rate is not a good wage. Paul D. Buell On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Susan Holbert wrote: > A database manager wrote: > > >Our rate of pay is per item ($6.21 per item), so at 4 per hour it is > >equivalent to the pay rate for an experienced librarian inhouse doing > >indexing. > > The fee above is approximately $25/hr. For an employee working 2000 hrs/yr, > this might be $50,000. For a freelancer this comes to approximately $25,000/yr. > > Why? Because freelancers must pay for their own health & disablity ins., > pension matching, vacations, holidays, prof. training, child care credits, > office expenses & equipment, time spent without work, looking for work, > cleaning the office, etc. > > No offense intended to the manager. I don't whether librarians in her area > earn $25K or $50, and I found her posting most helpful in other ways. I just > wanted to clarify the difference between an employee hour and a freelance > (home-based business) hour. Most managers and many freelancers do not > realize how great the difference is. > > I've been away for a few months and am glad to be back on the list. > > Regards, Susan > > > > > > > > > > > > > =============== > Susan Holbert/Indexing Services -- 617-893-0514 > 24 Harris St., Waltham, MA 02154 -- http://www.abbington.com/holbert > Quality Indexing of User Manuals and Online Help > Training videos and workshops > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:31:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Fwd: indexing help An author working on an index to her biography of Brahms has contacted me with the following question -- to which my gut reaction is that her proposal would be confusing to the reader, and wouldn't save much in the way of time or space (assuming she really is abbreviating Johannes Brahms as JB throughout the index, which is pretty standard practice). Anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com >My questions is this: >as the book is essentially a biography, I have tried whenever possible to >index people & places connected with Brahms under their names, not his. >But I find myself using entries such as HILLER;JB'S FRIENDSHIP WITH, and >I'm getting tired of that formulation. Is it reasonable practice to >assume, in a biography, that the connections are to the biographee unless >otherwise noted, so that the entry could read HILLER;FRIENDSHIP WITH ? > > --------------------- Forwarded message: From: SAVINS@drew.edu (Styra Avins) Sender: SAVINS@drew.edu Reply-to: SAVINS@drew.edu To: HSCHINSKE@AOL.COM Date: 97-07-01 10:45:23 EDT Date: 01-Jul-1997 10:33am EDT From: Avins, Styra SAVINS Dept: FAC/STAFF Tel No: 8213 TO: Remote INTERNET Address ( _IN%hschinske@aol.com ) Subject: indexing help Dear Ms. Schinske, Helen Foster, at OUP, gave me your name as someone I could consult when I run into indexing problems as I create the index for my book of Brahms's letters. My questions is this: as the book is essentially a biography, I have tried whenever possible to index people & places connected with Brahms under their names, not his. But I find myself using entries such as HILLER;JB'S FRIENDSHIP WITH, and I'm getting tired of that formulation. Is it reasonable practice to assume, in a biography, that the connections are to the biographee unless otherwise noted, so that the entry could read HILLER;FRIENDSHIP WITH ? I'd be most grateful to your early reply, and thank you in advance. My e-mail address is: SAVINS@drew.edu Yours truly, Styra Avins ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Not Really Indexing Pricing Problem You wrote > Someone else will underline names in the text that should be indexed, and >the job is essentially inputting the names, then sorting to eliminate dups, Jean, Indexing software will eliminate dups. If you harge a project or page rate, the project will subsidize the cost of the software. If you charge an hourly rate make sure it is high enough to cover your costs. You should not be paid less because you use professional tools! In general, I prefer project rates to hourly rates. You should not be paid less if you work more efficiently than other indexers. The client should not have to pay more to slower, less experienced indexers. Hourly rates work best where the scope of the project is uncertain. > Should I charge indexing >rates or word processing rates? If there are any concepts in this index, you will still have to make indexing decisions. Even if it is just names, if you are a newcomer, and the underliner is a good indexer, you will learn something by seeing which names were included in which contexts and which were omitted. If you see that every name has been underlined regardless of importance, you may be able to negotiate for the whole job next time. Regards, Susan ============== =============== Susan Holbert/Indexing Services -- 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert Indexing Skills training videos and workshops Affordable professional indexing software ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:49:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Fwd: indexing help Regarding the use of indexing construction such as HILLER; FRIENDSHIP WITH I have encountered these in my own leisure reading and have never had trouble understanding them. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:23:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: "Return" of Hong Kong Recalling William Safire's insightful comments (The New York Times Magazine, June 22), on the political overtones to the word chosen to refer to Hong Kong's "return" to China (I'm carefully using the word he describes as "scrupulously neutral and ... colorless"), I note with amusement that China has used officially the term Safire characterizes as describing "a British action, more of an old empire's giving than a new empire's taking" - that is, "handover": The New York Times, July 1, an excerpt from "The official translation of President Jiang's remarks [as] provided by the New China News Agency": "At this moment, people of all countries in the world are casting their eyes on Hong Kong. ... the two governments have held on schedule the handover ceremony to mark China's resumption of the exercise of sovereignity over Hong Kong ...". However, this excerpt also uses "resumption" - akin to "reversion", which Safire describes as "mak[ing} obeisances to the Chinese, who want it remembered that the ancient city spent only 150 years under the British flag". ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:51:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Notation for notes In answer to Cynthia Bertelsen, Joel Berson suggested distinguishing multiple endnotes with the same number on the same page by chapter number, as in King, Martin Luther, Jr. "I Have a Dream" speech, 334 ch. 2 n. 1 How about keeping the endnote locator format the same and adding the chapter number within parentheses? King, Martin Luther, Jr. "I Have a Dream" speech, 334 n. 1 (ch. 2) or, better still, using a tighter format designed to keep the locator together: King, Martin Luther, Jr. "I Have a Dream" speech, 334n1(ch2) I think this construction would be clear immediately to anyone looking up the reference and finding multiple endnotes with the same number on the same page. Using square brackets here instead of parentheses, as in "334n1[ch2]", could reserve the use of parentheses, as recommended by CMS, for referring to the page(s) on which there is a contextual discussion without an indexable mention of someone or something mentioned in the note, as in "334n1(45)". On the other hand, it looks to me like it would be better to use square brackets for endnote context references, as in "334n1[45]", and to reserve parentheses for enclosing chapter numbers -- which function as endnote locator qualifiers -- as in "334n1(ch2)". Now fancy this megalocator: 334n1(ch2)[45]! Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:38:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "Return" of Hong Kong In-Reply-To: <199707011718.KAA27134@mx3.u.washington.edu> The Chinese term for "return" being used for Hong Kong implies the idea of "returning to the homeland (as the proper place one belongs)," not return of something. A nice play on meaning. This is why a good index dealing with a Chinese topic must have characters. Translating the Chinese as "the return of Hong Kong" misses the point unless one is aware of the double meaning from the Chinese. I amazes me that, in all this, no one seems to recall that Macau is also "returning." That is really the end of an era, all 550 years of it. Vasco da Gama must be turning over in his cenotaph. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:31:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: "Return" of Hong Kong P. Buell wrote: > > The Chinese term for "return" being used for Hong Kong implies the idea of > "returning to the homeland (as the proper place one belongs)," not return > of something. A nice play on meaning. This is why a good index dealing > with a Chinese topic must have characters. Translating the Chinese as "the > return of Hong Kong" misses the point unless one is aware of the double > meaning from the Chinese. I amazes me that, in all this, no one seems to > recall that Macau is also "returning." That is really the end of an era, > all 550 years of it. Vasco da Gama must be turning over in his cenotaph. > Paul D. Buell The comment I made about the translation of excerpts from the speech of President Jiang was about the words "handover" and "resumption (of the exercise of sovereignity)". And my point was that these words were chosen in the "_official_ translation of President Jiang's remarks ... by the Chinese News Agency", and therefore by someone with knowledge of the nuances of the Chinese characters. The word "return" is also used elsewhere, and from its context supports Paul's comment. By the way, the translation (and presumably the original) has in my opinion an excellent literary style and choice of words. Joel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:07:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanna Flaherty Subject: Re: "Return" of Hong Kong I thought Macoa (or Macau) had been returned by the Portuguese many years ago. If it hasn't Vasco will really have reason to spin in his grave. JF ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:26:54 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Not Really Indexing In-Reply-To: <199707010211.TAA25636@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Hi Jeanna You wrote: >>Someone else will underline names in the text that should be indexed, and the job is essentially inputting the names, then sorting to eliminate dups, aggregating page ranges, and providing camera-ready copy. I've done one index that way and found that the person/author who underlined the words did not know _in the least_ what they were doing. I was also instructed to ONLY index the underlined words, but not the exact same words which were not underlined in the next chapters. I don't know how an index done that way could possibly be useful: if three kinds of climate are indexed out of the seven kinds discussed in the book, what use to the reader is indexing those three? Furthermore, how does one index for synonyms in an index with these limitations? What about double postings and cross references? If not all the 'rivers' are underlined and you believe, at minimum, that the index requires double posting under the name of the river and under 'rivers,' how do you handle this so as to do a quality job in your own eyes, while remaining within the limitations set by the author. I tried the 'may I enlighten you' and 'May I remove a few of the restrictions you've set' paths - the editor clearly was not interested in quality, but in publishing the book at a rock-bottom cost. The attitude actually was sort of: "I want to make money on this book and I will ask you to do something which vaguely resembles an index so I can hype it as one of my sales features, but neither the author nor the consumer are very smart so the quality or even following any basic rules of indexing, if there are any, ain't necessary." I was exceedingly frustrated with this kind of "index" and won't do it again unless a real Indexer actually marks the book - and then I would mainly do it for the experience of observing how another (real) Indexer thinks. It was really an awful experience, and being praised for the "index" was no consolation. This can be a learning opportunity for you, but be sure to go into it with your eyes open: This is not Indexing. I hope others have better stories/advice than this. Martha, who's very sorry to rain on your parade (I wonder if your potential client was my past client...) ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 05:20:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Workshop on Indexing Proposals Is there any possibility that a workshop on writing indexing proposals and setting rates could be presented at an ASI Conference sometime? It would be really helpful to someone like myself who is just getting started in learning how to set rates for indexing projects. Thanks. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:51:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: undigest mode Willa asks: >>Can someone tell me how to switch from digest mode to individual posts?= << Send the following command to the listserv: set index-l mail That doesn't seem to be well documented, and I once had to ask Charlotte how that is done. Cheers, Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:05:53 +0000 Reply-To: lbindex@picard.omn.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee Ellen Brower Organization: Brower Indexing Services Subject: Re: RATES: per entry Sally: Caution. .65 per entry can be adequate for trade books if work hours are controlled. Lee Brower > Hi-- > I'm bidding on a project with a new client and they want to work with a per > entry fee schedule. I'm not familiar with that system as I have only worked > on a per page basis. Can anyone tell me what would be a reasonable per entry > rate? > Thanks. > Sally Lutz > S.W. Lutz Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:57:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Determining fees (Was Re: Workshop on Indexing Proposals) At 05:20 AM 7/1/97 -0700, Willa MacAllen wrote: >Is there any possibility that a workshop on writing indexing proposals >and setting rates could be presented at an ASI Conference sometime? It >would be really helpful to someone like myself who is just getting >started in learning how to set rates for indexing projects. Willa, Generally, unless the project is a large or complicated one, the only proposal that I write might be an email to the editor or a faxed sheet with my proposed rate and time frame. Nothing very fancy. Usually it is a verbal proposal, as a matter of fact. I think what you are really asking here is how do you figure out what to charge. You need to consider what per hour rate you would like to make (within reason, of course!), based on your overhead and other expenses (as Diane Worden mentioned a few weeks ago). In my case, by now I know approximately how many pages per hour, with the number of entries per page, that I can comfortably do and I go from there. I also factor in editing time. It is true that some publishers pay less per page but the depth of indexing may be less (thus taking the indexer less time and making it economically feasible to index the material). I think we need to remember this--it is not always the per page rate or the per entry rate that is important necessarily, but rather the amount of time that it takes to do quality work given the organization, complexity, and density of the material to be indexed. A denser book naturally gets a higher per page rate in my proposals. You might want to get a few sample pages from a publisher before you commit to a rate. (Always ask if there are double columns of text!) For more information on costing, look at Wellisch's chapter on the subject in Indexing from A to Z, 2nd ed., pages 108-122. In addition, ASI published a booklet in 1995 entitled Running Your Indexing Business, and this source has a section entitled "Charging for Indexing Services." You might also want to review the recent ASI salary survey statistics. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:08:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Reference Book on Women's Literature Hello everyone, I just wanted to mention that a few weeks ago I bought this book on a remainder table: Guide to Women's Literature Throughout the World, ed. by Claire Buck (Bloomsbury Publishing Ltd., 1992, paperback edition by Columbia Marketing 1994, ISBN 185980005X). It just answered a question about a German female author (born 1780) that was in none of my other biographical dictionaries...so I was able to complete an index entry without a hitch and a trip to the library. (The author of the book that I am indexing used only the last name throughout the book, with no entry in the bibliography for this particular author.) ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:17:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: Not Really Indexing <<< Someone else will underline names in the text that should be indexed, and the job is essentially inputting the names, then sorting to eliminate dups,aggregating page ranges, and providing camera-ready copy. >>> << I've done one index that way and found that the person/author who underlined the words did not know _in the least_ what they were doing. I was also instructed to ONLY index the underlined words, but not the exact same words which were not underlined in the next chapters. I hope others have better stories/advice than this. >> One of our imprints tried this once by asking authors to format the text they wanted indexed in red. What an adventure! In some books, the authors would highlight obvious terms -- for example, every occurance of "NT Server" in a book entitled "NT Server." (You can image the page spans... "NT Server, 1-850".) Other authors would go overboard and highlight every imaginable term, even if it was just mentioned in passing. Fortunately, the publisher gave up on this idea after a handful of books! Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "Return" of Hong Kong In-Reply-To: <199707012225.PAA07402@mx5.u.washington.edu> Joel: no doubt about it, the Chinese were linguistically very clever as almost always. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:26:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: "Return" of Hong Kong In-Reply-To: <199707012308.QAA11782@mx5.u.washington.edu> I read in the paper yesterday that Macao will be returned in 1999. I thought it was 1997, so I stand corrected. Yes, the Portuguese still control it. For those who didn't get the joke, Vasco has no grave although he does have an impressive tomb in a former monastery in Belem (near Lisboa); his body rotted on the way back and they had to thrown him overboard. Paul D. Buell On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Jeanna Flaherty wrote: > I thought Macoa (or Macau) had been returned by the Portuguese many years > ago. If it hasn't Vasco will really have reason to spin in his grave. JF > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:44:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Workshop on Indexing Proposals At 05:20 AM 7/1/97 -0700, Willa wrote: >Is there any possibility that a workshop on writing indexing proposals >and setting rates could be presented at an ASI Conference sometime? It >would be really helpful to someone like myself who is just getting >started in learning how to set rates for indexing projects. > Excellent idea. I'd attend it. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:17:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Notation for notes In a message dated 97-07-02 02:03:10 EDT, Michael wrote: > Now fancy this megalocator: 334n1(ch2)[45]! Fancy, indeed! ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:56:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: Notation for notes Wildefire@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 97-07-02 02:03:10 EDT, Michael wrote: > > > Now fancy this megalocator: 334n1(ch2)[45]! > > Fancy, indeed! ;-D OK, now you've got us started on the subject of long, long locators. In statutes indexing they happen all the time, and I think they make a difference in how we index. Our locators are section numbers, which can be fairly short ( like 1.01 ) or really, really long, (like 336A.9-1096). Nobody on earth wants to read a string of those long ones--nobody even wants to see two of them together. This inclines us to go into deeper detail for areas of the law that have those long sections numbers. Usually this makes sense because in those areas of law, the provisions are very detailed anyway. Who else deals with humongous locators, and what does it do to the way you work? -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:06:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Return of Macao For whatever it is worth, I've read somewhere that although founded as a Portuguese trade depot in the 16th century, Macao wasn't under total Portuguese control until the 19th century. So actual Portuguese rule over Macao dates from the same era as the foundation of Hong Kong. I also read somewhere, and I can't vouch for the accuracy of this statement, that an attempt was made to return Macao to China after the end of the Salazar regime but China didn't want it. It was more useful for trade purposes as a Portuguese "colony." So it remained the very last Portuguese colony, and will remain so, until its return to China next year. I suspect that Vasco de Gama and the Portuguese of their generation, might be pleased that it served its intended purpose (as a trade depot) for so long. Lawrence H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:46:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: "Return" of Hong Kong In 1951, Macao's status was changed from that of a colony to an overseas territory (a common sort of practice with colonies--the U.S. has done something quite similar with Puerto Rico which has commonwealth status), and in 1987 the agreement was made to return Macao to China in 1999. (Information courtesy of Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, 3 ed.) At 08:26 AM 7/2/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote: >I read in the paper yesterday that Macao will be returned in 1999. I >thought it was 1997, so I stand corrected. Yes, the Portuguese still >control it. For those who didn't get the joke, Vasco has no grave although >he does have an impressive tomb in a former monastery in Belem (near >Lisboa); his body rotted on the way back and they had to thrown him >overboard. Paul D. Buell > >On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Jeanna Flaherty wrote: > >> I thought Macoa (or Macau) had been returned by the Portuguese many years >> ago. If it hasn't Vasco will really have reason to spin in his grave. JF >> > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:36:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Return of Macao In-Reply-To: <199707021710.KAA22308@mx5.u.washington.edu> No, Macao was certainly Portuguese, but it was self-governing (through its merchant community) for a long time. The 19th century date is probably when it came directly under the Portuguese crown. In addition to various works in Portuguese, see various discussions by C.R. Boxer, including Fidalgos in the Far East. The Chinese may find out that Hong Kong was better for them as a buffer than as something they control directly too. Stay tuned for a few years and then just watch what happens when China starts rattling a sabre or two in the direction of Taiwan....This ain't over. But back to indexing.... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:34:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: apology re mishandled forward I want to apologize for not handling my question on the Brahms biography very well -- I was under the impression that only the portion of text I had highlighted was getting forwarded to Index-L, whereas actually the entire message (including the author's name, which I hadn't asked permission to divulge) did. I suppose this is so one knows that a forwarded text is really the original, and hasn't been fiddled with by the person sending it on. Next time I'll know to cut and paste into a new message, rather than forward, if I want to leave out the person's name! (Also, what really made me red-faced was that it almost looked as though I were bragging about having been recommended by someone at OUP. In fact, she was confused about where she had gotten my name -- I don't know anyone at OUP, and wish I did.) Ah, well. If this is the worst thing I ever put on the list by accident, I'll be awful lucky! Fred Leise was very helpful, by the way -- a personal thank-you should be on its way. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:11:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Figuring Rates (2 question on getting started) I tried sending this to the list twice yesterday, with no luck, so am trying yet again. And I thought technology was supposed to make life easier! Thanks to Cynthia for her comments yesterday morning regarding my question on setting rates. The real issue for me is learning to estimate how long it will take to do an indexing project, especially when I don't know how fast I work as a beginner. I just submitted an Indexing Proposal (thanks to those who responsed to my question about rates) and found myself wondering whether I had estimated the right length of time so that I wouldn't end up putting in free time to finish the project. I know that it gets faster as one does it more often, and that indexing software speeds the process up, but there is still that unknown question of how long it takes a beginner to index a book. Also, a second question. Last year, I thought people recommended sending out lots of letters to publishers. This year, it seems as though quality of a single letter to a publisher is more important than quantity. It sounds as though the recommendation for beginners is slightly different this year than last year. How many samples should one write and how much of one book should one index? In other words, I assume one should not index an entire book to use as a sample, but just do part of a book, say the first hundred pages? Thanks for any feedback. Hope that everyone has a happy and safe 4th of July, wherever you are. I'll be away from technology for a couple of days. Thank goodness for long weekends! Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Wishing I had enough of a client base to move to southern new Hampshire!) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:41:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Figuring Rates (2 question on getting started) At 06:11 AM 7/2/97 -0700, Willa MacAllen wrote: I just submitted an Indexing >Proposal (thanks to those who responsed to my question about rates) and >found myself wondering whether I had estimated the right length of time >so that I wouldn't end up putting in free time to finish the project. When you are a beginner, you will be spending a lot of time on the learning curve and you cannot expect the client to pay for that. Even if you are an experienced indexer, at times (i.e., with a subject you have never indexed before) you will spend some nonbillable time on projects. > >I know that it gets faster as one does it more often, and that indexing >software speeds the process up, but there is still that unknown question >of how long it takes a beginner to index a book. It varies with the person, since reading and comprehension skills are so diverse among people. The only way for you to find this out is for you to do it yourself and find out how you work. > >Also, a second question. Last year, I thought people recommended sending >out lots of letters to publishers. This year, it seems as though quality >of a single letter to a publisher is more important than quantity. It >sounds as though the recommendation for beginners is slightly different >this year than last year. How many samples should one write and how much >of one book should one index? In other words, I assume one should not >index an entire book to use as a sample, but just do part of a book, say >the first hundred pages? By all means, you should do at least one complete index. By only doing the first 100 pages of a book you may not be able to produce anything very substantial and the structure of the index might appear a bit lopsided or skimpy because all the information is not in the index. You need to do an entire book, too, to find out if you like indexing--especially if you are going to market yourself as an indexer. In regard to marketing, some have said that a few well-researched letters are better for beginners, so that you can find what works best for you. From the beginning, I have always sent out 25-50 letters at once and I am still getting calls from people who were in some of my earliest marketing attempts! So I personally lean toward mass mailing, because marketing takes lots of time (I research names of editors and the book lists of publishers beforehand, etc.). You get your name out there to more people faster that way. I just want to add that indexing is the hardest job I have ever had (and I have had some challenges in my pre-indexing life). There are great aspects to the job and I would not change to go back to a traditional 8-5 job if I ever have a chance. But you have to like the downside to indexing, too, sitting there for hours staring at the screen and typing, the unforgiving deadlines, no free weekends for months on end.... ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:58:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanna Flaherty Subject: Re: Return of Macao It is nice to see that the indexing community is on top of the Macao situation. I was aware that it's status had changed and thought that the change was a return to China. I stand corrected. It will be interesting to see the type of response there will be to the return of one (perhaps the last?) of the few remaining vestiges of the Portuguese Empire over which the sun also never set. JF ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: pay rates and indexing schedules 3 July 1997 This is a response to Willa's concerns about how to estimate how long an index will take a beginner and to Cynthia's lament about the long hours an indexer faces. As a long-term indexer, I am not much better at estimating how long an index will take me than I used to be. That's because, until I am actively engaged with the material I'm indexing, I'm not sure how dense or complicated it is. Some factors that slow me down as an indexer of academic books include (1) a poorly written or edited volume--an author's lack of clarity can make *me* really struggle to make sense in the index of the book's major concepts, (2) a very dense text which requires many, many entries, (3) "terminology drift"--*lots* of synonyms for the same concept or even a complete change in terminology half-way through the book (this is usually related to problem #1), and (4) a field with which I'm only vaguely familiar and therefore have to struggle harder to understand or whose jargon is particularly obscure and difficult. On the other hand, the reverse of the same factors speed me up: conceptually clear and well-organized material written in plain English or in a jargon that I understand in a field that I know well is a breeze. The lesson that I've learned from all this is that the time one spends with difficult or easy texts tends to balance out over time. An incredibly tedious, difficult, and time-consuming indexing job will be--almost serendipitously--followed by a very easy, lucrative, and pleasurable one. And I'm working harder on trying to pursue more work along the latter lines, by lining up more work in fields that I know well and particularly enjoy! (Literary studies, women's studies, biography, cultural studies, history, archeology--the humanities, in general). I'm sure that how much one indexes depends in part on how much one needs to earn. But just as there seems to be a balance in the kinds of work one is offered, I think it's important to strive for a balance in one's life between work and play. It is important to *schedule* a life *apart* from indexing as well. For those of us who work from home and who consequently face a lot of isolation and inactivity, it's essential to build in exercise with friends and/or family, meals with other people, and other activities--recreational reading, music, hiking, skiing, biking, swimming, doing errands, volunteering, dealing with one's kids, whatever--that keep one's life in balance. It's unhealthy mentally, physically, and spiritually to put all your efforts into only one aspect of your life, no matter how rewarding or lucrative (are we still talking about indexing here ??) it may seem (or be). It may sound odd to beginners who are eagerly seeking their first job, but experienced indexers *can* actually turn down work from a publisher and be asked to work for them again. I like to have a steady stream of work, rather than a tidal wave of it, and I try to regulate how much work I take. I often turn down jobs because they won't fit into my schedule (as I define it). I also turn down work that I am not interested in (very complicated or unorthodox indexing jobs for difficult authors, for example) or don't feel competent to do (economics, medicine, law, philosophy). (Of course, I recommend other indexers for work that I don't want to or can't take on.) As long as the quality of my work is uniformly high, the deadlines met, and and my contacts with the variety of academic presses for whom I work are steady, professional, and pleasant, I manage to get enough work to make the kind of money I want to make *and*, by and large, to index the kinds of books I prefer to index. *And* to have a life outside of indexing as well. Particularly when you're relatively new to running your own business, there's a tendency (and probably a need, in the initial stages) to throw yourself completely into it. But recognize when you're burning out, and set some limits. It's important to have a life *outside* of work as well--no matter where your work is done! As I step down from my soapbox now, I'll wish all of you a happy Fourth of July--and urge you to spend some time watching fireworks, having a picnic, swimming, and spending time with friends--as *well* as indexing--over the weekend! --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:53:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Figuring rates (and getting started) Figuring rates is almost always difficult--the only time I know I can get it just right is when I'm doing another in a series of similar books for the same publisher. Each book has unique characteristics, and we usually have time only to estimate on a superficial look at the proofs. Last month I took a small bath in finding that the language of the book I was indexing was much "softer" and more elusive than I'd thought, and ended up spending at least 1/3 more time than I'd estimated; also, in the same month, I submitted an estimate on a book, a modest one but with a little time built in for possible difficulties, and lost out because the other bid was just a bit lower! As Cynthia says, it takes experience; and also experience to be philosophical about it! When you practise your indexing--which you should do not only to produce samples of your work but to get familiar with software and see how you like to work, you should also time yourself in relation to the nature of the text: density of type and ideas, text in columns or not, how much you can rely on chapter and other headings, etc. for guidance. Indexers do differ in whether they like to do mass mailings or tailor individual letters. Like Cynthia, I like to send out lots. Even one small job will pay for that mailing many times over. It's a balance: when you know what individual publishers publish, and you like the sound of it, tailor some letters to them which will act as models for letters to the others; send out your mass mailing to those whose subjects and style aren't obviously of interest to you. You just never know what will happen: lots of times your letter may well be trashed, but, like Cynthia, I've been contacted years after I'd sent a generalized, mass mailing, my particular experience, etc. having struck some chord at some time. Noeline H. Bridge nbridge@planet.eon.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:56:02 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DENTREMO@GOV.NS.CA Subject: Thesaurus Construction Tools -Forwarded I am forwarding this for a collegue. You may respond to the list or to him directly. Thanks. Blaine Received: From [198.166.84.1] gov.ns.ca By gov.ns.ca (GroupWise SMTP/MIME daemon 4.11) Mon, 30 Jun 97 17:59:04 ADT Received: from mailer.syr.edu ([128.230.20.20]) by igate.gov.ns.ca with ESMTP id <18434>; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:57:19 -0300 Received: from mailer (128.230.20.20) by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.3C287CA0@mailer.syr.edu>; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:01:21 -0400 Reply-To: Records Management Program Sender: Records Management Program Message-Id: <97Jun30.175719adt.18434@igate.gov.ns.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:57:40 -0400 From: Dan Pittman To: RECMGMT@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU, Dan.Pittman@WCB.GOV.NS.CA Subject: Thesaurus Construction Tools I need to acquire a good stand-alone product for developing ISO standard thesauri? I would like to hear from experienced developers about the pros and cons of any of the products they have used or are currently using. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Dan Pittman Records Analyst Workers' Compensation Board of Nova Scotia dan.pittman@wcb.gov.ns.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:48:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Not Really Indexing I had to do something like this also, once. I asked the company very clearly to do nothing to associate my name with the book/index in any way. I never want to do it again. I was not given underlined proof, but I was given a list/index without page numbers made by the author. It was inconsistent, prepared in a disorganized and ridiculous way, and just plain awful. I spoke with the editor and explained the problems. We agreed I would stick to the author's main entries, clean up the subs, and add appropriate cross references. I did add some entries of my own, and tried to do as good a job as possible within the guideline/constraints. But still, I hated the index and would not want to do that for someone again. Sorry to add more problem stories to this, but..... Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:10:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Not Really Indexing I have worked for a press that had authors in contributed works highlight terms they wanted indexed. Since most of them had no real idea what indexing was about, what was indexable, and how much information constituted an indexable entry, ..... you can imagine the results. The pages were more than worthless. I told the editor that they couldn't pay me enough to use those pages. It would take me hours and hours just to go through all of that marking and to decide what was usable and what was not. I wouldn't work that way. I told them that I would index their book(s), but it had to be my own index, my professional opinion, and that if I felt I wanted to use the author's marked text, I would. But I wouldn't be bound by it. I always scanned each chapter quickly. Once in a while, what the author did was usable, and I did use it as a guide. I did a lot of indexing for that client over quite a long period of time. Aside from the fact that the authors of these chapters didn't know what constituted an indexable entry and overindexed terribly, entire aspects of indexing were omitted if one used their suggested terms only, and those were the concept of relating bodies of information with cross references, and the use of broader, tying-together kinds of categories. They didn't even know to think about that. They just stuck to the text and marked up waaaay too much. Nobody who calls her(him)self an indexer should ever work bound to somebody else's marked text. We have professional credentials, professional judgment and knowledge ... and that, in the final analysis, is what we are being paid for if we are hired as indexers. The indexer creates, writes the index. If one is ever asked to work this way, it is vital to insist on the freedom to alter what is marked in the text -- to add to it, delete from it, or use it at all -- according to one's own judgment. Otherwise, all they are hiring is somebody to do data entry, and it is up to each of us if we wish to be used that way. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Re[2]: Not Really Indexing At 02:10 PM 7/3/97 -0400, JPerlman@aol.com wrote: > The indexer creates, writes the index. If >one is ever asked to work this way, it is vital to insist on the freedom to >alter what is marked in the text -- to add to it, delete from it, or use it >at all -- according to one's own judgment. Otherwise, all they are hiring is >somebody to do data entry, and it is up to each of us if we wish to be used >that way. Janet, I agree with all the points you make. May I elaborate on your last sentence; if we do choose to take the "data entry" job, we need to make sure the client knows the difference, lest the client (continue to) misunderstand what indexers do. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:25:06 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Schwilk, Michael" Subject: cumulative indexes Hello everyone, I have the fun task of compiling 15 volumes of collected treatises on cancer research, compiled by, oh, 8 indexers of varying knowledge/styles, w/o vocabulary control. One basic problem I would like to resolve is the use of following main entries: cancers carcinomas neoplasms Most will be covered by postings to the individual diseases, sarcomas, leukemias, etc, but some will be more general, I hesitate to delete all the 1400 or so entries. My instinct is to xref the first two to neoplasms. Do any of the medical indexers out there have any solutions? Another hitch is, I have two weeks to do this, so corners are being cut. If anyone has any tips, or has had experiences with this kind of project, I love to hear them. Thanks in advance (and Happy July4th!!), Michael Schwilk Harcourt Brace ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:49:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Smith o <44asmith@MACH1.WLU.CA> Subject: Advice please! In-Reply-To: <199705071743.NAA17906@mach1.wlu.ca> The first posting from me! I am indexing a book on Canadian politics, which compares various issues in the 32nd-35th Parliaments (1981-1997). Question: since the whole book deals with the 32nd Parliament, 33rd Parliament, etc. do I enter a. 32nd Parliament: (alphabetically under T, and with masses of subheadings), then 33rd etc. b. at beginning of index enter 32nd Parliament: with masses of subheadings, then 33rd, etc. c. at beginning of index say 32nd Parliament. See under specific elements (because that's what the book is about, the various Parliaments) 33rd Parliament. See under... 34th etc. See under... 35th etc. See under... d. Parliaments: 32nd; 33rd; 34th; 35th. See under specific elements. I think I favour d. but it depends on how much time I have, may subdivide each one, although the entries will be very long. Can anyone help in a hurry? thanks, Ann Smith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:51:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: cumulative indexes Michael Cancer can be a see ref to neoplasms but carcinoma should not be a see ref. Carcinoma is a specific form of cancer and according to Dorland's dictionary Carcinoma is a malignant new growth made up of epitheal cells. Neoplasms is a general term for new abnormal growth, benign or malignant. Cancer is also a general term which is why cancer can go to neoplasms but not carcinoma. The thesaurus for the National Library of Medicine is available online at the NLM site but I don't have the URL handy. Also, I looked up carcinoma in the NLM thesaurus (MeSH) and they say do not confuse Carcinoma and Neoplasm. Hope this helps. Roberta Horowitz At 03:25 PM 7/3/97 PST, you wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I have the fun task of compiling 15 volumes of collected treatises on > cancer research, compiled by, oh, 8 indexers of varying > knowledge/styles, w/o vocabulary control. > > One basic problem I would like to resolve is the use of following main > entries: > > cancers > carcinomas > neoplasms > > Most will be covered by postings to the individual diseases, sarcomas, > leukemias, etc, but some will be more general, I hesitate to delete > all the 1400 or so entries. My instinct is to xref the first two to > neoplasms. > > Do any of the medical indexers out there have any solutions? > Another hitch is, I have two weeks to do this, so corners are being > cut. If anyone has any tips, or has had experiences with this kind of > project, I love to hear them. > > Thanks in advance (and Happy July4th!!), > > Michael Schwilk > Harcourt Brace > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:18:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Workshop on Indexing Proposals) Cynthia: Have the results of the ASI survey statistics been published? Or are they out somewhere where we can read them.? Suellen On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:57:56 -0400 Cynthia Bertelsen writes: >At 05:20 AM 7/1/97 -0700, Willa MacAllen wrote: >>Is there any possibility that a workshop on writing indexing >proposals >>and setting rates could be presented at an ASI Conference sometime? >It >>would be really helpful to someone like myself who is just getting >>started in learning how to set rates for indexing projects. > >Willa, > >Generally, unless the project is a large or complicated one, the only >proposal that I write might be an email to the editor or a faxed sheet >with >my proposed rate and time frame. Nothing very fancy. Usually it is a >verbal proposal, as a matter of fact. I think what you are really >asking >here is how do you figure out what to charge. You need to consider >what per >hour rate you would like to make (within reason, of course!), based on >your >overhead and other expenses (as Diane Worden mentioned a few weeks >ago). In >my case, by now I know approximately how many pages per hour, with the >number of entries per page, that I can comfortably do and I go from >there. I >also factor in editing time. It is true that some publishers pay less >per >page but the depth of indexing may be less (thus taking the indexer >less >time and making it economically feasible to index the material). I >think we >need to remember this--it is not always the per page rate or the per >entry >rate that is important necessarily, but rather the amount of time that >it >takes to do quality work given the organization, complexity, and >density of >the material to be indexed. A denser book naturally gets a higher per >page >rate in my proposals. You might want to get a few sample pages from a >publisher before you commit to a rate. (Always ask if there are >double >columns of text!) > >For more information on costing, look at Wellisch's chapter on the >subject >in Indexing from A to Z, 2nd ed., pages 108-122. In addition, ASI >published >a booklet in 1995 entitled Running Your Indexing Business, and this >source >has a section entitled "Charging for Indexing Services." You might >also >want to review the recent ASI salary survey statistics. > > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > >***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:33:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: cumulative indexes For what it's worth, MeSH uses neoplasms. On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:25:06 PST "Schwilk, Michael" writes: > Hello everyone, > > I have the fun task of compiling 15 volumes of collected >treatises on > cancer research, compiled by, oh, 8 indexers of varying > knowledge/styles, w/o vocabulary control. > > One basic problem I would like to resolve is the use of following >main > entries: > > cancers > carcinomas > neoplasms > > Most will be covered by postings to the individual diseases, >sarcomas, > leukemias, etc, but some will be more general, I hesitate to >delete > all the 1400 or so entries. My instinct is to xref the first two >to > neoplasms. > > Do any of the medical indexers out there have any solutions? > Another hitch is, I have two weeks to do this, so corners are >being > cut. If anyone has any tips, or has had experiences with this >kind of > project, I love to hear them. > > Thanks in advance (and Happy July4th!!), > > Michael Schwilk > Harcourt Brace > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Mass mailings (was Figuring rates (and getting started)) In a message dated 97-07-03 21:46:39 EDT, you write: << Indexers do differ in whether they like to do mass mailings or tailor individual letters. Like Cynthia, I like to send out lots. Even one small job will pay for that mailing many times over. It's a balance: when you know what individual publishers publish, and you like the sound of it, tailor some letters to them which will act as models for letters to the others; send out your mass mailing to those whose subjects and style aren't obviously of interest to you. >> How many indexers send out resumes or brochures with their mass mailing letters? Or do you just send a letter? Just out of curiosity. I'm getting ready to try a mass mailing campaign. Thanks, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:22:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[4]: Not Really Indexing Janet Perlman wrote: << Nobody who calls her(him)self an indexer should ever work bound to somebody else's marked text. We have professional credentials, professional judgment and knowledge ... and that, in the final analysis, is what we are being paid for if we are hired as indexers. The indexer creates, writes the index. If one is ever asked to work this way, it is vital to insist on the freedom to alter what is marked in the text -- to add to it, delete from it, or use it at all -- according to one's own judgment. Otherwise, all they are hiring is somebody to do data entry, and it is up to each of us if we wish to be used that way. >> I agree! Although to be fair, not every indexer has that luxury. When you work in-house, you give up the freedom to choose the books you work on and the jobs you take. A few authors have indexing agreements written into their contracts, so the indexer is legally bound to follow his or her markings. (This doesn't happen often, fortunately... I've only seen it happen twice in the last couple of years.) You can request that your name is not included in the book credits, but those requests don't always make it to the production department in time. Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:47:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Figuring Rates (2 question on getting started) Cynthia wrote, in response to Willa: << By all means, you should do at least one complete index. By only doing the first 100 pages of a book you may not be able to produce anything very substantial and the structure of the index might appear a bit lopsided or skimpy because all the information is not in the index. >> I agree. When I send sample indexes (only when asked, but you're more likely to do it as a beginner) I usually send just one page each of several sample indexes in different styles. Occasionally a publisher will ask for something different--a whole index and one chapter of the book, for instance. << You need to do an entire book, too, to find out if you like indexing--especially if you are going to market yourself as an indexer.>> I would hope that anyone who's at the stage of marketing themselves would have indexed, not just one whole book, but many! Otherwise you don't yet know how to provide the service you're selling! Marketing shouldn't start until you know how to index. (Please note--this isn't meant to reflect in any way on how much preparation Willa has done.) << In regard to marketing, some have said that a few well-researched letters are better for beginners, so that you can find what works best for you. From the beginning, I have always sent out 25-50 letters at once and I am still getting calls from people who were in some of my earliest marketing attempts! So I personally lean toward mass mailing, because marketing takes lots of time (I research names of editors and the book lists of publishers beforehand, etc.). You get your name out there to more people faster that way. >> I think so too. In my experience, many of the publishers I've contacted don't hire indexers, or are really distributors, or aren't interested for various other reasons. You have to send out (or call) a lot of them to get a few possible clients. Good luck to all beginners! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:05:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Fan Letter (was Reference Book) This is an open letter of appreciation for Cynthia Bertelsen's rich knowledge of and regular sharing of information about reference books. As a fairly new indexer (and an old and inveterate pursuer of odd information), I am grateful to her and to all those on Index-L who share information about useful books and where to find bargains among them. Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:52:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. My vision correction went from -9 to -1 diopters thanks to a kind of laser surgery called Lasik. It is a very quick and virtually pain-free procedure, taking no more than 15 minutes per eye. I can't imagine dealing with those thick glasses and all that eyestrain any more. I opted to have less than perfect correction so that I would not lose my close up vision, as 90% of my life is writing and reading. If you want more information on this subject, I recommend a book entitled Beyond Glasses by Franette Armstrong. Or ask me. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:04:27 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: test:Has the list gone to sleep? I have seen no postings for the past week, are we all on extended vacations? If so, whom is doing all the great work these days? Jim Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suzanne Stevenson Subject: New to List I am new to this list and am wondering if someone can give me a little info. about it. What kind of people subscribe? Is everyone in the indexing/editing/publishing fields? Thanks, Suzanne (BrodyMac@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:24:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: test:Has the list gone to sleep? No sleeping around here! Just trying hard to finish up a couple of projects before the packers arrive tomorrow and move us all to North Carolina (from Virginia)! I will sleep next week. Bonnie Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:53:10 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Portuguese possessions According to the Word Almanac for 1994, the only Portuguese possessions remaining after Macau will be the Azores and Madeira. Both were 'offered partial autonomy' in 1976 (and presumably accepted it?) Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:13:36 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: New to List In-Reply-To: <199707061952.MAA21502@darkwing.uoregon.edu> >I am new to this list and am wondering if someone can give me a little >info about it. What kind of people subscribe? Highly-intelligent, good-looking, charming people subscribe to this list, of course. Surely you didn't think otherwise... ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:26:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: New to List >about it. What kind of people subscribe? Only the *nicest* kind! Truthfully, Suzanne, it's hard to answer your question with any certainty. Since anyone *can* subscribe, and any subscriber can lurk forever and never participate if he or she so chooses, anyone could be here. The people who participate actively, though--that is, the ones you'll see regular postings from if you hang around for a while--are, in my experience (about a year or so of subscribing), extraordinarily bright, civilized, helpful, and fun. Some are working indexers (either freelance or in-house). Some are in training. Some *do* the training. Seems to me we have a number of librarians as well. To a man/woman, all are humble enough to ask a question when need be, and generous enough to answer others' questions whenever they're able. So welcome. I can pretty well guarantee that if you're interested in the branch of wordworking that indexing represents, you'll enjoy (and learn from) your stay here. Me, I've been indexing for 15-odd years (okay, some of them odder than others...) as part of my editorial-services business. Indexing represents about a third of my business, with copyediting, proofreading, and teaching taking up the rest of my working life. Want to tell us a little about yourself? Cheers, Rica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net * Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer * Seminar Leader: _Networking With Integrity_ and _Romance Meets Reality: Becoming Your Own Boss_ Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "If older is better, I must be approaching magnificence!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:18:04 +0000 Reply-To: devdsn@rccsun.ait.ac.th Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Francis J. Devadason" Subject: Re: New to List Hi, I am also new to the list. It is nice to be in the company of indexers though I am a librarian I had some stint with subject indexing, especially of the faceted variety ! I even wrote an FID/CR Report way back in 1986 on "Computerized Deep Structure Indexing System". But it is not suitable for Book Indexing, I think. I enjoy the company of indexers. Francis Devadason. > _______________________________________________________________________ Dr. F.J. Devadason, Associate Director, Center for Library and Information Resources, Asian Institute of Technology, P.O. Box : 4, Klong Luang, Tel (66-2) 524-5855 PATHUMTHANI - 12120 Fax (66-2) 524-5870 THAILAND e-mail devdsn@rccsun.ait.ac.th http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5041/ http://www.ait.ac.th/clair/ _______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:53:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: New to List I'd like to add the word -helpful- to Martha Osgood's list of terms that describe people who subscribe to this list. BTW, I was curious how many Librarians are in ASI? Does anyone know? Just curious. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Back from a pleasant long weekend away (that I didn't lead myself!) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:13:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Workshop on Indexing Proposals) ASI survey statistics will be in the next issue of KeyWords, which should be out soon. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:21:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Palmer Subject: Re: New to List >I am new to this list and am wondering if someone can give me a little info. >about it. What kind of people subscribe? Is everyone in the >indexing/editing/publishing fields? Thanks, Suzanne (BrodyMac@aol.com) Hi Suzanne, I'm doing object name indexing for the Powerhouse Museum In Sydney. My background is in information science (librarianship) and museum studies. I've only been a paid indexer for a year! I also do data entry and database maintenance as part of my job. I joined the list to listen to the expertise of those with experience and to ask questions about things I don't know. Glad to have you on the list - the more the merrier! Barbara Palmer Assistant Registrar (Collection Information System) Powerhouse Museum, Sydney barbarap@phm.gov.au