Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:44:45 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9610E" To: Julius Ariail ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 06:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Dear Indexers: (This is the 3rd attempt to send this message due to "mail failures" - I apologize if it's a repeat!) Can anyone comment on the special requirements and techniques for indexing an encyclopedia (one volume, special topic, young adult type). On this first exposure to such a book, I am finding it incredibly fact-intensive and concept-poor. The threads that I usually find are not very obvious here. I've just started, and it already seems that this will be the longest index on record..... Barbara Stroup Indexer ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:57:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daveream@AOL.COM Subject: indexer certification The latest newsletter for the DC/MD/VA Chapter has an editorial about this. Maybe it could be posted to Index-L by someone in that region. Dave Ream ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: indexer certification In-Reply-To: <199610291536.KAA25314@polaris.net> On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 Daveream@AOL.COM wrote: > The latest newsletter for the DC/MD/VA Chapter has an editorial about > this. > > Maybe it could be posted to Index-L by someone in that region. I would love to see this editorial. If anyone has it, would you please post it to Index-L? I think it'd give us a lot of food for thought--and discussion. (I hate the idea of certification simply because I think that, at least in the U.S., we are obsessed with credentialism. But I am eager to hear yet more viewpoints.) TIA, Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Applying computer technology is simply finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw."--Anonymous ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:54:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Re: Automated indexing and agents compared >I read it that way at first, but it looks like there's a slightly different >shade of meaning here. The argument didn't seem to be that using automated >indexes would lead to too much reliance on them, followed by the atrophying >of the parts of our brains we use for indexing. :) It seems like they are >saying, more specifically, that a person writing a book (let's say), while >knowing that it will be indexed with that type of automated tool, might >phrase the sentences in such a way that it would be easier for the tool to >work. In other words, the top question in the author's mind might cease to >be "Is this the best way for me to phrase this for the book's topic and >intended audience?" and begin to be "Is this the best way to phrase it so >the automated indexing tool will pick it up?" That's a reasonable interpretation, althought not the one I made. Considering how little thought authors give to indexing now, I suspect we have nothing to worry about. :-) ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:58:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mail failure messages In a message dated 96-10-28 21:12:28 EST, you write: > > But, being that Charlotte said that they'll be > > discontinuing that address, I'm using the other address when I remember > to. > > > What is the other address? > > Jan Jan, It's INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU. Weird. Even though I made sure to address my last message using it, the Bitnet address is what showed up in the post when it appeared on the list. I don't think it always happened this way. Lynn ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Printers, purchasing of In a message dated 96-10-28 18:24:14 EST, Justine wrote: > > ** Could you go into a bit more detail? ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:32:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexer certification On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 Daveream@AOL.COM wrote: > > The latest newsletter for the DC/MD/VA Chapter has an editorial about > this. > > Maybe it could be posted to Index-L by someone in that region I would assume the editorial is copyrighted, so wouldn't the author's (or chapter's) permission be needed? (Depending on who holds the copyright to articles in the newsletter.) Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:04:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: emotionally involved with book No, this is not going to be some kinky story. Right now I'm indexing a book on the break-up of the Soviet Union, with the focus on the Lithuanians. There's a whole chapter on Bloody Sunday. I literally cried my way through it, and it makes me want to commemorate their courage by putting every single name mentioned into the index. Actually, there is just enough of substance to justify it, so I don't think anyone would complain. Working on a book that has a strong emotional component (an intentional one) creates some interesting possibilities for the index. For example, I'm discovering that this sort of arrangement for the Gorbachev entry makes more sense than moving the real keywords to the front, because it better captures the impression the author wants us to have of Gorbachev: Gorbachev, Mikhail anger at Baltic separatists anger at Sajudis anger at LCP's separation from CPSU I'm also tempted, but will resist, doing something like this: Soviet media on Landsbergis, 60, 71 lies and distortions by, 55, 60, 71, 83 on Sajudis, 83 I want to stress that these are the author's explicit opinions, not just my own. So the question is, even despite my motivation of showing a pattern in the subs that appears as a motif in the book, is this sort of thing (the first example, that is) bad indexing style? I'm not used to working on such emotionally charged material; philosophy and art history don't typically involve violence. Although it slows the indexing down a bit, it's great to have a job I love and which also opens my eyes now and then. I had a similar experience indexing a book on British colonialism in India. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Turner James Subject: register of indexers For the information of those interested, I've just put up at the web site of the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada the 1996 _Register of Indexers Available_. You can look at it at: http://tornade.ere.umontreal.ca/~turner/scad/reg96.html _______________________________________________________________ James Turner, professeur adjoint Ecole de bibliotheconomie et des sciences de l'information Universite de Montreal CP 6128, succursale Centre-ville, Montreal, QC, CAN H3C 3J7 Telephone +1 514 343 2454 Telecopie +1 514 343 5753 Internet turner@ere.umontreal.ca WWW http://tornade.ere.umontreal.ca/~turner _______________________________________________________________ ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:23:04 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Language's wonderful ambiguity Whenever I need to scrounge up an example of an ambiguous entry, I find myself scrathcing my head trying to remember ones I've struggled with. Here is a recent one, which I should write down for the next time I need an example: In a book on sports equipment and facilities management: fencing (sport) fencing (structures) Because the book used gerund forms for other structural elements (roofing, not roofs, for example), I chose not to rewrite the entries as: fencing, fences, (oops... those would clearly be sorted properly in Cindex!) We should collect these somewhere so I could access them the next time I need some good examples! Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:14:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Re: Mail failure messages In-Reply-To: <199610282138.QAA25457@cap1.CapAccess.org> Dear folks I too got a failed mail delivery message for a posting about embedded indexing. However I know that *some* people got this posting because they responded to it. Curiouser and curiouser. Regards Julia Marshall juliam@capaccess.org ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: printers and keyboards I use a Mac, but both of these items are available in PC versions, as far as I know. I just got my new printer and keyboard. It will take some time (but not much!) to get used to the keyboard, an Adesso Nuform with pointer. I love it after only about 10 mins. I will need time to get the new location of the delete key though. I know I'll be a lot happier. And as for the printer, well, I couldn't be happier. It's brand new on the market, an Alps MD-2010 color inkjet. Costs $499, SCSI rather than serial which makes it very much faster, uses non-water-based ink so it won't smear, has metallic ink available, cartridges cost a mere $11. Prints b&w 1200x600 dpi, color 600x600, on plain paper, *card stock*, labels, transparencies, back print film (what is that?), iron-on transfers. I LOVE IT. It was very easy to set up, no funny business. Worked right off. Output is fab. Really, I highly recommend it. If anyone is interested, I'll give you more details via private email. BTW, I'm already used to the delete key! And the pointer device is easy, fast, accurate, and right smack in the middle of the board. Yipppeeee. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:41:28 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Kasoff Subject: Re: indexer certification Hazel I certainly agree with you! We are obsessed. Why do I need a Master of Science in Librarianship and a New Jersey Certificate to be a professional librarian in New Jersey? Suellen (a database indexer) Sglickman@Juno.com ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:50:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexer certification Haze - Thee are a lot of very important reasons why certification is (I believe) a terribly bad idea. They go 'way beyond just excessive credentialism. Profoundly bad idea. Haven't time to go into it now, but it is not just credentials - - it is insane (in the literal sense of the word as meaning divorced from reality). If adopted, it will cause untold (and, unfortunately, unforseen) grief. A true Pandora's box of awfulness. And superficially so plausible. Therein lies the immediate danger. It is a trap set by knaves for fools. Bob ================================================================= ======== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:54:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: indexer certification At 11:50 PM 10/29/96 -0500, ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote: >Haven't time to go into it now, but it is not just credentials - - it is >insane (in the literal sense of the word as meaning divorced from reality). > If adopted, it will cause untold (and, unfortunately, unforseen) grief. A >true Pandora's box of awfulness. Bob, I'm not sold on credentials...but your post is extremely negative about the idea, when we've heard from a number of folks who work under such a system and don't find it a "true Pandora's box of awfulness." I wish you would take the time, whenever you can, to elucidate just what causes this IMO extreme reaction. =Sonsie= ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:04:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Clarification & Mea Culpa re Certification All - My previous posting regarding certfication of indexers was meant to be a private communication to Hazel Blumberg-McKee in response to her query regarding the DC Chapter notice. But, as I have said before, The Sending Finger presses, and having pressed moves on, etc., etc. Before the flamethrowers are ignited I want to make perfectly clear (as our late lamented President would say) that I did not mean that all who advocate certification are knaves, or that all who think it might be a good idea are fools. Bob Richardson ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: mail failures Hi all, Lynn's assessment of the mail failure problem was correct. It is a failure of the address of an individual subscriber...not of your message to index-l. I am trying to track down the offending address. In the meantime, just delete the bounced message. If you want to be sure that your message gets through send the following message(s) to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu: 1) If you want a mail message confirming your posting set index-l ack or 2) If you want to view your own messages posted to the list set index-l repro As always, when you have a technical problem, please contact me (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu) instead of posting the message to the list. I will always try to respond immediately...or as soon as possible. I was on vacation last week, so was not aware of the problem until yesterday. My apologies to those who did inquire about this and received no response. Charlotte Skuster Index-l Moderator Phone:607-777-4122 cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie-Lise Shams Subject: Re: Mail failure messages Julia, The Mail failure messages are sent to the originator of a message to alert her/him that the message was not received by the address stated in mail failure message. Usually the reason is a changed address, a discontinued address, or a full mail box. That's why it is a good habit to "set nomail" when going on vacation. Personally I just ignore these messages. With Index-L it is somewhat different, the mail failure messages are often due to some systems, - like mine - that do not handle Bitnet addresses. I forget sometimes and use the "reply" command. In that case I have to resend the message using the Internet address: index-l , [actually I made a shortcut for it]. Since this is a bitnet listserv, the bitnet address automatically shows in the header when the message is distributed to the list. Marie-Lise ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Marie-Lise Shams ^ ^ Information Specialist ^ ^ Consortium for International Earth ^ ^ Science Information Network (CIESIN) ^ ^ 2250 Pierce Road ^ ^ University Center Michigan 48710 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Phone: +1-517-797-2790 ^ ^ Fax: +1-517-797-2622 ^ ^ E-mail: mshams@ciesin.org ^ ^ URL: http://www.ciesin.org ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Julia B. Marshall wrote: > Dear folks > I too got a failed mail delivery message for a posting about > embedded indexing. However I know that *some* people got this posting > because they responded to it. Curiouser and curiouser. > > Regards > Julia Marshall > juliam@capaccess.org > ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: Martin_Ahermaa@tvo.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martin Ahermaa Organization: TVOntario's Online System Subject: Re: emotionally involved with book Carol Roberts wrote: I want to stress that these are the author's explicit opinions, not just my own. So the question is, even despite my motivation of showing a pattern in the subs that appears as a motif in the book, is this sort of thing (the first example, that is) bad indexing style? I'd be inclined to leave interpreting Gorbachev's emotions out of the index, and let the reader interpret the author's remarks. This would make the index somewhat shorter, as well. Martin_Ahermaa@cmac.org ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:11:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Need Subcontractors! Hello indexers- I am looking for 2 or 3 subcontractors to work on a project involving selecting substantive terms from documents (originally electronic), marking them, and creating an ASCII file of them. I need people who are familiar with (and have done) database searching using boolean logic, and have some administration/management background. Of course, I'm looking for people with an entrepreneurial bias, self managers who WILL make deadlines, and supply a reliable product. **Anyone applying should be willing to sign confidentiality/nondisclosure agreements** with me, and with my client. The materials and results of this work can NOT be discussed before, during, or after the project. It may not be used in any papers or presentation, and cannot be discussed except with me or people I designate as contacts. Contractors accepted for this project will also need to sign a work agreement with me. The work is straightforward, and requires the ability to make intellectual connections between concepts as well as particular subject terms. [Which is why I'm posting to INDEX-L!] The number of hours will vary by week and there is room for some flexibility in scheduling. Subcontractors will be required to visit or call my office for orientation and instructions, and periodically for evaluations and to receive new instructions as needed. (Probably not more than once per month, if things are going well.) Applicants should contact my by email or by phone. Resumes/Letters of qualification will be requested after initial discussion of the project. 512.244.2767 No calls after 9 PM Central Time, please. njsmith@bga.com Neva < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@bga.com voice/fax +1.512.244.2767 ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:11:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Encyclopedias Barbara asked about indexing encyclopedias. I've done quite a few; here are some observations. They tend to be fairly straightforward conceptually; I don't end up spending a lot of time ruminating on which ideas are important or how they're related. The intense part is the number of facts, people, organizations, events (depending on the topic) that need to be indexed. The same indexable bits turn up over and over. It works best to break ^everything^ down into subheads as I go through the first time, and then combine the ones for which it wasn't necessary--because it isn't as obvious as it is in a regular book which things are going to be discussed how much. The indexes are usually on the long side, too; make sure your editor is planning for that. Good luck! Do Mi ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:15:24 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Encyclopedias My experience with encyclopedias has been similar to Do Mi's. They have lots of repetitious detail, lots of proper nouns and recurring subject categories, and someone has already made most of the classification decisions, so you have to go with it (which can be good or bad, depending on how well the separate article titles and topics work as index entries and subentries). I generally start by indexing the topics and personal/place names from the article titles as a first pass... then evaluating the outline for categories I am going to find again and again in the articles themselves. This familiarizes me with the broad outline of the book and clues me in to decisions I might have to make to organize the material for searchability. I also find that (depending on the test), I index less heavily within an article if a topic is covered in 5 other "better" places, meaning that I define passing mentions as anything covered elsewhere in a separate article (but I usually use the occurrence of a passing mention to create a cross-reference to the fuller discussion). For example, in an encyclopedia of military history, I covered "Waterloo, Battle of" as a separate entry and cross-references it to "Napoleon Bonaparte" (and vice versa), but I think I didn't pick up all of the page numbers for the Battle of Waterloo in which it's mention was a sideline to the main topic of that article. I did, however, pick up mentions of Waterloo that were NOT obvious, such as a discussion of the weaponry under "Military Technology." (Is that clear? I use cross-references instead of page locators for connect major topics, but I pick up locators from entries that are not obviously connected). My justification for not picking up every mention of the Battle of Waterloo that is focused on just one person at the battle (cross-referencing instead), is that the reader then can move to that focus or can look up the entries that contain different information. (In oter words, I define "exhaustivity" as picking up locators that lead the reader to all the different information, not necessarily to every page nnumber on which a topic might be mentioned, even in passing). In re-reading this, I can see where someone would criticize me for not being thorough, but I think hat sending the reader to every minor mention of Waterloo might be a disservice in terms of searchability (which I try to balance with exhaustivity in encyclopedia indexes). This kind of indexing requires the indexer to make many judgement calls about what the main focus of each article is. If there is not much overlap between articles in the encyclopedia, it is far easier to be exhaustive about the depth of indexing of each article, in my opinion. If the articles overlap heavily, I find little point in sending readers to 8 articles that say the same thing. I should say, in concluding, that I have indexed a few school-level encyclopedias, and these were highly repetitious within the articles. I didn't thihnk the index needed to be as repetitious as the text. Barbara Who enjoys indexing encyclopedias because they generally have good vocabulary control, clarity between synonym terms, and a formal structure that makes indezing eas--but who never forgets that the reader may have other terms in their head, other structures for the material they are seeking, and need for greater specificity than the text might allow (so the indexer must add many more cross- reference terms from synonyms and from terms relevant to levels above and below the structure of the material in the text--which I see as one of the biggest challenges of encyclopedia indexing). -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:16:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: June Levy Please add my name to the list. Thank you. June R. Levy/lc Managing Director Cinahl Information Systems 1509 Wilson Terrace Glendale, CA 91206 (818) 409-8005 (818) 546-5679 (Fax) jlevy@cinahl.com ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: job opportunity I ran across this announcement on the web: Temporary Job Opening Indexers Experienced indexers needed. We produce concept=20 indexes for technical and medical books and=20 periodicals. Knowledge of Cindex helpful. Equal opportunity employer.=20 For immediate consideration, send cover letter and=20 r=E9sum=E9 to=20 EEI/INDI 66 Canal Center Plaza Suite 200 Alexandria, VA 22314-5507 Fax +1 703-683-4915 jobs@eeicom.com Please include code INDI on all correspondence.=20 Copyright 1996, EEI Communications 66 Canal Center Plaza, Suite 200, Alexandria,=20 Virginia 22314-5507, USA Phone +1 703 683 0683; fax +1 703 683 4915 http://www.eeicom.com/jobs/indexers.html Last modified 18 Oct 1996 ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:32:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: emotionally involved with book Carol writes, >Gorbachev, Mikhail > anger at Baltic separatists > anger at Sajudis > anger at LCP's separation from CPSU > >I want to stress that these are the author's explicit opinions, not just my >own. So the question is, even despite my motivation of showing a pattern in >the subs that appears as a motif in the book, is this sort of thing (the >first example, that is) bad indexing style? If Gorbachev's anger is a focus of the text, I think it is a legitimate subentry. I might have an "anger of" sub, with those page numbers, and the other subentries as well, without the "anger at" modifier, assuming that there are other, non-anger-related entries for Gorbachev. However, I sometimes do repeat the beginning of a subentry in order to make clear a contrast or pattern that is important to the text, but I find this is most useful in run-on indexes. >I'm also tempted, but will resist, doing something like this: > >Soviet media > on Landsbergis, 60, 71 > lies and distortions by, 55, 60, 71, 83 > on Sajudis, 83 If the author is presenting evidence of the ways the Soviet media told lies and created distortions, that is indexable. I would choose the term very carefully, probably trying to avoid "lies and distortions by." The point is, history is made by people with personalities and reported by the media which no longer enjoys the myth of objectivity (to put it mildly). Tracking these and other modes is very important to the fields of history and political/cultural studies. Best, Victoria ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:48:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: emotionally involved with book In-Reply-To: <199610302332.SAA06543@polaris.net> Carol Roberts wrote in about an index she's working on and gave these examples: >Gorbachev, Mikhail > anger at Baltic separatists > anger at Sajudis > anger at LCP's separation from CPSU I realize that she's reflecting the author's explicit opinions in so doing. However, I think I'd do the following: Gorbachev, Mikhail Baltic separatists and LCP and Sajudis and or possibly Baltic separatists and, reactions to LCP and, reactions to Sajudis and, reactions to I might even add a subheading for "emotions of." I think I'd want to try to stay as neutral as possible, even though the author isn't. After all, all authors have a particular "take" on a subject; some just get more emotional than do others. ;-) Also, I think that more readers will look for "Baltic separatists" and the like than for "anger." >Soviet media > on Landsbergis, 60, 71 > lies and distortions by, 55, 60, 71, 83 > on Sajudis, 83 I can certainly understand the desire to include the second subhead! I've indexed a number of books on the former Soviet Union, and several of the authors were *quite* emotional. I might use something like "reporting style of," which'd be more neutral. Just my $.02. Hazel (who's indexed a lot of books on the Middle East, feminist interpretations of literature and film, and other topics about which authors become extremely heated) Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) sign that your cat has learned your Internet password: on IRC, you're known as the IronMouser ================================================================= ======== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: emotionally involved with book In a message dated 96-10-29 14:51:14 EST, Carol.Roberts@MIXCOM.COM (Carol Roberts) writes: << I literally cried my way through it, and it makes me want to commemorate their courage by putting every single name mentioned into the index.... ... Gorbachev, Mikhail anger at Baltic separatists anger at Sajudis anger at LCP's separation from CPSU >> I had a similar experience when I indexed a biography of a Jewish concentration camp survivor, Elie Wiesel. I had to keep reminding myself that I was supposed to be writing index entries, and I'd have to reread the text with that in mind. I tried to remain objective by writing index entries like: Christians attitudes toward Jews Jews attitudes toward Christians Wiesel, Elie attitudes toward Christians attitudes toward Germans etc. Hopefully, I succeeded in my efforts to remain objective...the client seemed to be happy with the result. Peg Mauer ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:20:36 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon Subject: Fw: How are pay rates determined? From: Jon To: Index-L Subject: How are pay rates determined? Date: Thursday, 31 October 1996 6:12 There's been some discussion on INDEX-L recently about (book) indexers being paid 'what they're worth'. I've got no quarrel with people trying to increase their remuneration, but I think we should bear in mind that - like most complex systems - the publishing system has no way to determine what an index is 'worth' in financial terms, or how much more a good index is 'worth' than a bad one. In this, like so many other things, we are dependent on the goodwill and enlightened self-interest of the editors who employ us. In fact I would be a little wary of putting too much stress on what the index is worth, in case some bright spark in Accounts decides to sit down with a calculator and put a figure on it - you know, 'If Book A, with an index, sold 5,800 copies, and comparable book B, with no index, sold 4,700 copies, then how much...' In practice pay rates depend largely on supply and demand. The reason why lawyers and doctors get paid so much is mainly because they have a stranglehold over new entries to the profession. If we follow their lead then we should cancel all training courses but one, limit intake, and require aspiring indexers to sit a rigorous exam with a failure rate of 90%. It's economically inefficient and mean-spirited, but it would keep pay rates up. BTW, am I the only person on the list who happens to think they get paid quite well? As someone whose father drove a double-decker bus through the streets of London for 25 years on the equivalent of about $15 an hour, I believe that getting more than twice that for sitting at a desk reading and typing is pretty good, thank you. (I only wish that it happened more often!) Jonathan. ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:51:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: too good Well, has anyone, besides me, been criticized for doing too good a job? I just got a letter of feedback from the people who I mentioned in my last round of posts, the ones with the pathetic sample index I was to go by. They said, and I quote: ...[the index] was basically excellent, thorough, and full of all the right stuff. However, it was somewhat more than we needed." It goes on to describe where I had overindexed ("we don't index case studies"), that I had provided 958 entries and they only wanted 800 for a 294 page book, that I had not used proper indention for runover lines, that I had not gone to the "end of a 40-character line before [running] over into the next line" (I guess I was supposed to hyphenate more) and so on. They went on to send "a copy of a typical index we've used, just as a guide" and it was the same bad index they sent before. The wrapup said I must adjust to their needs when I wear the [company's] hat. Well, I guess it was nice to receive feedback. And all this for 50 cents an entry. And the book was so badly written and poorly organized and badly designed, that it was difficult to index to begin with. Now I have to think up a way to politely tell them no thanks when they offer me more work, which they ended by saying they will. Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:10:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: too good In-Reply-To: <199610311252.HAA01946@polaris.net> On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Rachel Rice wrote: > Now I have to think up a way to politely tell them no thanks when they > offer me more work, which they ended by saying they will. Rather than turn down the next job the publisher sends you, you might consider saying that you have adjusted your fee schedule. Then quote a really exorbitant rate. If this doesn't scare off the client, you could probably force yourself to work for lotsa bucks. ;-)) Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) sign that your cat has learned your Internet password: on IRC, you're known as the IronMouser ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: too good I am going to throw in my $.02 here, as these issues that Rachel Rice brings up are issues that can be resolved somewhat by having a checklist handy when you get called by an editor or when you get the packet from the press with the proofs. Every index is a learning experience and these comments merely reflect what I have learned (or at least what I think I have learned!). My checklist includes the following (this is only a very short version of it!): (Rachels' initial comments are denoted by R>) 1. When is the index due? (Translation: can I fit it into my schedule if I have anything else going?) 2. What is the title and subject of the book? R>They went on to send "a copy of a typical index we've used, just as a R>guide" and it was the same bad index they sent before. The wrapup said I R>must adjust to their needs when I wear the [company's] hat. 3. How many lines or entries are allocated for the index? For the publishers, this is a crucial issue, since anything too long will mean loss of valuable time in editing or more expense if more signatures have to be included in the book. Because the publisher (the customer) is the one calling the shots, it is absolutely crucial to be sure that you walk their walk and talk their talk. (Even if it hurts to smile at times because you are screamming with frustration!) 4. Does the editor have an email address? If so, I get it, and I ask questions whenever ANYTHING comes up that I have questions or doubts about. Otherwise, I call; it is worth the money and the saved time at the end, plus it also gives you a chance to strut your stuff and show your concern for quality and accuracy. R>It goes on to describe where I had overindexed ("we don't index case R>studies"), that I had provided 958 entries and they only wanted 800 for a R>294 page book, that I had not used proper indention for runover lines, that R>I had not gone to the "end of a 40-character line before [running] over Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:44:45 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9610E" To: Julius Ariail R>into the next line" (I guess I was supposed to hyphenate more) and so on. 5. I also ask about what does not need to indexed, if they don't tell me. Most of the time, the press has guidelines for this (and if you don't get guidelines from them on the first job, it pays to get them. I keep a basic file on each client, and their guidelines are the first thing that go into the file.). 6. If the guidelines do not have formatting specs., I usually try to get an idea from them. The reason, most of the time, that they want the formatting done a certain way, is they need to estimate the length of the index. Of course, they can take an .rtf file and do whatever with it, but it is the length issue that dictates this to a certain extent. 7. I also usually send an email or call about two-three weeks later to see if everything went well with the index. Sometimes I get more work when I do that, but it is a good way to get feedback (though I like the postcard idea that was discussed here recently, but even there if the editor is busy, you may not get an answer. Email seems more immediate and less of a problem than finding a mail box to send a postcard from.) A phone call puts the editor in direct access to you and your concerns. Not only do you get feedback, but again, you become personified in a way that doesn't happen if you rely on paper medium only for communication. In a phone call, if it comes up, you can mention your cat or dog or the weather or who is going to win the election or whatever and have a laugh or two about something. R>Now I have to think up a way to politely tell them no thanks when they R>offer me more work, which they ended by saying they will. I would advise never burning any bridges with any publisher, or with anyone for that matter, since you never know...that editor may move to a publishing house that you might send a letter to in the future and you will get work because of that contact. Just my opinion. Have a good day out there. In case I have never mentioned it (and if you are this far in this tome), I appreciate all of your comments. I, too, look forward to "checking my mail" to see how you are all doing. Thanks. ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:46:07 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: too good Rachel: If I don't want to work for someone again--but I don't want to get into a long explanation if I don't think it's worth the air it takes to tell them what I think--I just turn down the next job(s) they call about and/or recommend someone else to do the work. New indexers might be happy to have the experience and might be more attuned to this editor than you are. There is certainly room for all kinds of editors and indexers in our work, and I try to tell myself, in circumstances like you are experiencing, that this person and I are just not going to see eye-to-eye. Then I move on and let her move on to! They way I see it, as a free-lancer, you get to pick the hats you are comfortable wearing! Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:08:16 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Mail failure Subject: too good I would second Cynthia's statement about "don't burn any bridges." You never do know who knows who or who works with whom. The editor may, in fact, not like the rules andy more than you do, and in her next job, she may come back to you as just the person to prepare the excellent indexes she has always wanted to commission! Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:24:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: too good At 07:51 AM 10/31/96 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote: >It goes on to describe where I had overindexed ("we don't index case >studies"), that I had provided 958 entries and they only wanted 800 for a >294 page book, that I had not used proper indention for runover lines, that >I had not gone to the "end of a 40-character line before [running] over >into the next line" (I guess I was supposed to hyphenate more) and so on. Rachel, it sounds to me as if the person who missed the boat here is the person who assigned you the index and neglected to give you these pointers up front! He or she should have explained the formatting requirements (set your line to 40 characters and use an indent of 5 spaces, or whatever, do not index cases, provide approximately 800 entries, and so on). I've developed a list of questions I ask, because I so rarely get any real guidance about what is wanted. And I spend an hour or two going through the first batch of pages, starting the index process, and so on, just to find out what important stuff they didn't bother to inform me about. As for how to nicely refuse work...well, that's easy! The next time they call, you can tell them you are fully scheduled for the next three months with other clients' work. That ought to get rid of them. =Sonsie= ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:20:15 -0800 Reply-To: Kari Bero Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: (long) Re: How are pay rates determined? In-Reply-To: <199610310416.WAA13021@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> Jonathan makes some interesting points. Some I agree with, some I don't. I appreciate his insights and point of view. It made me do some deep thinking. > the publishing system has no way to > determine what an index is 'worth' in financial > terms, or how much more a good index is 'worth' > than a bad one. In this, like so many other I have a problem with the idea that a publisher is paying for an _index_ rather than for an indexer to create an index. Granted, the end product is most important to them, but how that product is produced is what is at issue. It is not like going out to buy a pair of shoes. It is like going out to contract with a cobbler to make a pair of shoes to perfectly fit your foot. So, you can go to the local Wal-Mart and buy a pair of shoes for very little money. (Or, a publisher could generate the index w/ a concordance software, or ask an author or editor to whip one up). But, what you have won't be terribly useful. It won't serve it's purpose very well. But, if you go to a cobbler and pay a pretty penny for shoes that will last & fit your foot perfectly, you don't mind. Even if you pay several hundred dollars for a pair of designer shoes, the quality is likely to be dulled by that of a pair made specifically for you by a cobbler. If publishers want _usable_ indexes, they have to pay. Some are willing to risk paying for poor writers and poor editors, others are willing to pay for great writers and great editors. If it is that they don't know what is a "good" index, and what is a "bad" index, then we have a responsibility to educate them. And, they have a responsibility to learn. They somehow learned what a good editor can do. How will they learn what a good indexer can do? That is where we come in. We need to write articles for publishing industry journals and newsletters. We need to speak at their conferences and local meetings. We need to show them two indexes for the same book: one good, one not so. Just a small investment of our time can do wonders for their understanding of what they do. Until we show them, they'll think all we do is read the book and type these words into a computer. ((Another great analogy is to doctors. If we think they just sit and listen to our complaints about discomfort and make a recommendation for treatment, we think they're paid too much. For that, we can use any program written by computer science undergrads that asks questions about symptoms and suggests treatments. Doctors _do_ much more than that. Hence, they are paid for their work and for their education and for their background)). > things, we are dependent on the goodwill and > enlightened self-interest of the editors who > employ us. Not I. I know what my services are worth, I know what my background is worth, and I know that I will not devalue that. I think that after most indexers get out of the newbie stage, they realize this. Publishers who understand the process of indexing will agree. Publishers who do not, will not. Who do I choose for my clients? Who do I contact with cold queries? Who do I accept contracts with? > In fact I would be a little wary of > putting too much stress on what the index is > worth, in case some bright spark in Accounts > decides to sit down with a calculator and put a > figure on it - you know, 'If Book A, with an > index, sold 5,800 copies, and comparable book B, > with no index, sold 4,700 copies, then how > much...' True, I'd love to see such stats. However, I'd like to on how many users actually use the book (circulation stats in libraries would help). And of those who bought the book, how many were satisfied? Still, great idea. And I admit that when I did an index for a 450 page technical manual that cost the publisher nearly $5,000, while I'm used to indexes for which I charge about half that, I asked myself "what made _this_ publisher say it was worth it?" Do I think it was worth it? Yes. I did a terrific job, followed their guidelines, and created a fabulous product. Granted, technical manuals are a different story. But, if you do not know what indexers actually do, the invoice could make your jaw drop. > In practice pay rates depend largely on supply > and demand. The reason why lawyers and doctors > get paid so much is mainly because they have a > stranglehold over new entries to the profession. > If we follow their lead then we should cancel all > training courses but one, limit intake, and > require aspiring indexers to sit a rigorous exam > with a failure rate of 90%. It's economically > inefficient and mean-spirited, but it would keep > pay rates up. Jonathan makes a good point here. We in the U.S. could take this to heart when we think of certification. In fact, I bet that a lot of the fears that great indexers have about having to be certified are related to this. As Jonathan points out, indexers _don't_ do this when they are planning a certification process. We could, but we don't. It is natural that as the number of professional indexers grows, the rates of pay will vary more, and (hopefully) more publishers will begin to learn the difference between poor indexes and good indexes. Publishers who don't care, but do want a professional to do the work, will go with indexers who charge less. Publishers who care about quality work will use indexers who charge a reasonable amount for the work they perform. > BTW, am I the only person on the list who happens > to think they get paid quite well? As someone > whose father drove a double-decker bus through > the streets of London for 25 years on the > equivalent of about $15 an hour, I believe that > getting more than twice that for sitting at a > desk reading and typing is pretty good, thank > you. (I only wish that it happened more often!) I think there are others who feel indexers are paid well for their work. Sometimes I feel I am. Other times I feel I'm not. I personally would love to get paid $30 an hour to read & type. But I'm not. I usually average $25-$30 to read, process, understand, organize, re-read, process from a different perspective, re-organize, and craft an index into a usable product. For _that_, I think $40 an hour is a steal! Off soapbox. I love this discussion, by the way. Jonathan's astute observations really pushed me to think about how _I_ feel about it. -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=- ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: 1996 rate survey Do we have a lurking lawyer on the list who would be willing to look over the 1996 professional activities survey for me? The survey will be presented to the board this weekend and is scheduled for appearance in the January/February issue of KeyWords. Please respond to sanindex@aol.com. ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: FAQ (long) At long last I am getting around to re-posting the FAQ. Changes include-- 1.Removal of the section on automatic indexing (if you are interested, it still exists in the archives at Georgia Southern University...see under #3 Archives), 2. Addition of a section on netiquette. I consider these to be guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Charlotte INDEX-L FAQ Contents: 1. Index-l procedures 2. Netiquette 3. Archives 4. Books on indexing 5. What software do indexers use? 6. Courses or training for indexers (outside of library schools) 7. Professional societies/organizations for indexers 8. Network connections 9. Internet Sites 10.Winners of the ASI/H.W. Wilson Company Award for Indexing 1. INDEX-L PROCEDURES There are three addresses you need to use for interaction with index-l: To take part in a discussion or send a message to the list (a.k.a. group or subscribers), address your e-mail to index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a message directly to the moderator (a.k.a. Charlotte), address your e-mail to cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu or Skuster@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a command to the listserv, address your e-mail to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu. As subscribers, you are able to send commands to the listserv to see the archives, see a list of subscribers, stop your mail for a while, or a number of other options. To get a list of listserv commands and what they do, send the following message to the listserv: INFO REFCARD Do not sign your name or put anything else in the message. 2. Netiquette Index-l is un-moderated most of the time. This means the listowner does not see the messages before subscribers do. There are +/-800 subscribers to index-l. It is a very diverse group of free-lance indexers, students, academics, in-house indexers, technical writers, editors, and others. The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is appropriate. ---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about software/equipment. ---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be legitimately related to indexing, they may be appropriate.) ---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted messages. --Other guidelines related to keeping the list free of clutter and strife ---Refrain from sending comments without content such as "I agree" or "right on" or "me too", "thanks", or "welcome". This type of message is best sent directly to the person you are responding to. (An exception to this would be a global thanks for information or assistance provided by several people.) ---When surveying the group for information that requires a brief answer, such as "how many of you are librarians?" or "who uses XYZ software?", please invite respondents to reply to you directly and offer to summarize for the list. ---Avoid quoting long messages when responding to a post. Quote segments just long enough to let others know what you are responding to. ---Fire prevention. If possible, try not to respond to postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the person personally. ---If you are having technical problems, please contact the listowner directly (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu). ---For a more extensive treatment of netiquette issues see the following site on the world wide web: http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/netiquette.html 3. ARCHIVES There are two ways to look at the archives: ---Received directly from the listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Send the following message to the listserv: index index-l. You will receive a list of available archives. When you decide what you would like to see, send the following message to the listserv: get log9610a (for the first week in October, for example) ---On the library gopher at Georgia Southern University: Messages are stored here from the start of the listserv in 1992 through the most recent preceding month. A WAIS searching program is available to search through all years at once or through a selected year. The GSU gopher is located through a gopher client at gopher.gasou.edu or by telnet to gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu. public login (INFO), and then look for the gopher program on the the main information services menu. When you reach the gopher take this directory path: /Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Organizations/Index-L 4. BOOKS ON INDEXING Bonura, L. The Art of Indexing. Wiley, 1994 Knight, G. N. Indexing, The Art Of. Allen & Unwin, 1979. Lancaster, F. W. Indexing and Abstracting in Theory and Practice. U of Illinois Press, 1991. Lancaster, F. W. Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval, 2nd ed. Information resources Press, 1986 Mulvany, Nancy C. Indexing Books, University of Chicago Press, 1994. Wellisch, H. Indexing and Abstracting, an International Bibliography ABC-Clio, 1980. Wellisch, H. Indexing from A to Z. H. W. Wilson, 1991. 5. WHAT SOFTWARE DO INDEXERS USE? FOR PCS (DOS-BASED) IN>SORT Kensa Software P.O. Box 4415 Northbrook, IL 60065 (708) 559-0297 Macrex Bayside Indexing Service P.O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 95015-0051 (415) 756-0821 FAX: (415) 757-1567 Macrex@aol.com Cindex Indexing Research Box 18609 Rochester, New (716) 461-5530 FAX: (716) 442-3924 ircindex@aol.com FOR MACS HyperIndex Andre De Tienne 7590 Harcourt Road #106 Indianapolis, IN 46260 (317) 274-2033 adetienn@indycms.iupui.edu See additional software listings on the ASI Web page: http://www.well.com/user/asi 6. COURSES OR TRAINING FOR INDEXERS (OUTSIDE OF LIBRARY SCHOOLS) Graduate School of the USDA Correspondence Programs, Ag Box 9911 Room 1114, South Agriculture Building 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC 20250 (202) 720-7123 TDD: (202) 690-1516 Tuition: (includes all materials) $281,00--Basic Indexing (beginning) $275.00--Applied Indexing (more advanced) 7. PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES/ORGANIZATIONS FOR INDEXERS American Society of Indexers (ASI) P.O. Box 48267 Seattle, WA 98148-0267 (206) 241-9196 FAX: 206) 727-6430 E-MAIL: asi@well.com E-Mail: asi@well.com http://www.well.com/user/asi/ Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada Box 744 Station F Toronto Ontario Canada M4Y 2N6 National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services (NFAIS) 1518 Walnut Street Suite 307 Philadelphia PA 19102-3403 (215) 893-1561 FAX: (215) 893-1564 E-MAIL: nfais@hslc.org Society of Indexers 38 Rochester Road London NW1 9JJ England Phone: (UK) 0171-916-7809 (answerphone only) Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI) GPO Box 1251L, Melbourne Victoria 3001, Australia E-MAIL:mindexer@interconnect.com.au URL http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi 8. NETWORK CONNECTIONS America Online (800) 227-6364 CompuServe (800) 848-8199 Delphi (800) 495-4005 GEnie (800) 638-9636 The Well (415) 332-4335 Real/Time Communications (512) 459-4391 See also. Maren, M. "The Age of E-Mail. Home Office Computing, December, 1993, 63-70. Tetzeli, R. "Is Going On-line Worth the Money?" FORTUNE 129(12):104-105, 108. June 13, 1994. 9. Internet Sites Gopher Index-L Archives gopher eagle1.cc.gasou.edu World Wide Web American Society of Indexers http://www.well.com/user/asi Australian Society of Indexers http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi Indexing Conference on the Well http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/index.htm 10. WINNERS OF THE ASI/H.W. WILSON COMPANY AWARD FOR INDEXING 1979--Hans H. Wellisch, author and indexer; John Wiley, publisher: The Conversion of Scripts: Its Nature, History and Utilization 1980--Linda I. Solow, indexer; M.I.T. Press, publisher: Beyond Orpheus:Studies in Musical Structures. 1981--Delight Ansley, indexer; Random House Publisher: Cosmos by Carl Sagan, 1982--Catherine Fix, indexer; Wm. Saunders Company, publisher: Diagnosis of Bone and Joint Disorders. 1983--Award not given. 1984--Trish Yancey, indexer; Information Handling Services, publisher: Index and Directory of U.S. Industry Standards 1985--Sydney W. Cohen, indexer; Random House, publisher: The Experts Speak by Cerf and Navasky. 1986--Marjorie Hyslop, indexer; American Society for Metals, publisher: Metals Handbook. 1987--Award not given. 1988--Jeanne Moody, indexer; National Wildlife Institute, publisher: Raptor Management Techniques. 1989--Philip James, indexer; Butterworths, publisher: Medicine for the Practicing Physician, 2nd ed.. 1990--Marcia Carlson, indexer; Cornell University Press, publisher: Strategic Nuclear Arms & Arms Control Debates. 1991--Daniels, Nancy L., indexer; Van Nostrand Reinhold, publisher:Beyond Public Architecture: Strategies for Design Evaluation. 1992--Johnson, Rachel Jo., indexer; Matthew Bender, publisher: American Law of Real Property. 1993--Award not given. 1994--Deminna, Patricia, indexer; U. of California, publisher: Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture by Daniel Boyarin 1995--White, Martin L., indexer; University of Chicago Press, publisher; The Promise of Pragmatism: Modernism and the Crisis of Knowledge and Authority. 1996--Award not given ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:09:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: emotionally involved with book Carol Roberts' experience reminded me of similar indexing experiences of my own. Earlier this year I was approached with a request to index a biography of Josef Goebbels by the notorious and blatantly antisemitic 'historian' David Irving. I bristled as soon as I heard Irving's name, but managed to say politely, 'I don't think I want to do it, thank you'. The conversation was abruptly brought to a close - I wasn't asked for my reasons for refusing the job. They must have been only too obvious. I did not feel I could bring an objective and neutral approach to bear on indexing such a book. This however is an extreme case. More often one may not find out until the commission has been accepted that one is out of sympathy with the text. What to do in such a case? I feel that in these circumstances one should take even more care than usual to employ neutral terms in dealing with emotionally charged matters. Only as a last resort should the job be abandoned, as this would cause great inconvenience to the publisher (and you are unlikely to get more work from them). The distinguished British indexer Douglas Matthews wrote in The Author (the journal of the Society of Authors) (autumn 1993) of his unpleasant task in indexing an English version of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf, which he had to grit his teeth to undertake. He wrote, 'It was tempting to slant the entries, for example, to make a subheading "poisonous hatred of Jews"; but that would be inappropriate, while the neutral "anti-Semitism" is exact and, I think, more effective because it is cooler. The text should say it all; the index merely directs the reader to where to look.' (I owe the quotation to Hazel Bell.) I don't think the point could be put better. Meanwhile, I think the suggestions made by various people on this list for modifying the entries suggested by Carol for her Soviet Union index are excellent. Christine Shuttleworth Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB Tel/fax (44181) 749 8797 ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:19:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Fw: How are pay rates determined? At 02:20 PM 10/31/96 +1100, you wrote: > >BTW, am I the only person on the list who happens >to think they get paid quite well? As someone >whose father drove a double-decker bus through >the streets of London for 25 years on the >equivalent of about $15 an hour, I believe that >getting more than twice that for sitting at a >desk reading and typing is pretty good, thank >you. (I only wish that it happened more often!) Thirty bucks an hour is not so great considering you have to pay for that desk and the computer you are typing on, the costs of running your office and the business in general, health insurance, etc. At $30 per hour, your real income is probably substantially less than your father's $15. He didn't have to pay for his bus. :-) He also had a steady income whereas indexers might make $30 an hour for a month then nothing for the next month. One of the first rules of self employment is to consider that you will only work about 1,600 hours per year (if you are lucky) instead of the normal 2,000 hours worked under salary and establish your hourly rate accordingly. There are days when it makes real sense to go to work for someone else at $15/hour and simply chuck the overhead of running my own business. At the end of the year, I would have about the same amount in my bank account. Dick Evans ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:46:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fw: How are pay rates determined? Jonathan wrote: << but I think we should bear in mind that - like most complex systems - the publishing system has no way to determine what an index is 'worth' in financial terms, or how much more a good index is 'worth' than a bad one. In this, like so many other things, we are dependent on the goodwill and enlightened self-interest of the editors who employ us. >> I very much disagree with this last statement. I do not feel we are dependent on the goodwill and enlightened self-interest of our editors at all. I find this to be a very reactive position, and do not ever want to feel "dependent" in the most negative sense. That is why I am self-employed -- so that I can shape my own fate! I feel that we indexers are working in a marketplace, and as such, the "going rate" within the trade floats, depending BOTH on the rates offered us AND on the rates we ask for. If you see yourself as dependent on the editor/publisher, then you will never ask for more or ask for what you think a job is really worth. You will accept what is offered. I for one do not do that. I see every job as negotiable, so that they can tell me what they want to pay, and I can agree or ask for more -- either on the basis of that being lower than the going rate, or on the basis of having a specialty, or of the length of the index required, or of the short timing being given me, or on the basis of the size of the book (either physical size/oversized pages, or length of the book). If I choose to ask for a higher rate, it is with professional reasons, not greed. If I accept the offered job at the offered rate, it is not out of dependency, but rather because that pay rate meets my own criteria of fair and equitable, given the job described. We have a saying here -- everything in life is negotiable, said with tongue in cheek, Jonathan. But in a sense it reflects a different world-view. I think we in the States tend to negotiate an awful lot. It would seem to me that rates would float downward if we don't ask for a wage that brings a suitable pay -- suitable in terms of what we have analyzed as filling our needs, considering our obligations and the prevailing professional pay scales of comparable professionals. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:43:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: too good Rachel Rice wrote: >Well, has anyone, besides me, been criticized for doing too good a job?...I had provided 958 entries and they only wanted 800 for a >294 page book,...I had not used proper indention for runover lines,... >I had not gone to the "end of a 40-character line before [running] over >into the next line" (I guess I was supposed to hyphenate more) and so on. First, if they wanted 800 lines and you gave them 958, they could have gone down in point size to make it fit. But I would have discussed this with the editor before delivering the index, and maybe tried to do more cutting myself if they couldn't reduce the size of the type, and asked the editor for guidelines about cutting if necessary. I am puzzled by the latter part of their complaint. Did they require camera-ready copy? I should hope not, for $.50 a line! I never give a client an index with runover lines, because the typesetter will just have to strip out the hard returns to reformat it. I make the line length 1000 characters so that runovers don't happen. Why should they care, unless it was for price purposes? If that's the case, you could prepare a version with runover lines in order to price it, and I guess they would want you to use ALL the line space so they would pay less. Tacky, but understandable. Keep up the good work, Rachel--you will be rewarded! Elinor ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:04:10 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: How are pay rates determined? I just want to point out that some of the discussion arising from Jonathan's statement about being satisfied with $30 an hour is omitting the fact that the Australian Society of Indexers has that as a recommended rate of pay, so there is little danger of the rate "floating downward," as Janet feared. I assume that the recommended rate is reviewed every so often. We can't operate that way in the U.S., because of legal reasons (not to open THAT discussion again). Regarding Dick's concern that $30 is actually much less, I would assume that for highly technical jobs requiring extra expertise or equipment or software, the rates would be higher. Am I right, Jonathan? Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:36:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: emotionally involved with book Carol wrote: > Right now I'm indexing a book >on the break-up of the Soviet Union, with the focus on the Lithuanians. >There's a whole chapter on Bloody Sunday. I literally cried my way through >it... I get a book like this periodically. The most intense was a book about the death penalty, written to show people how awful it is. After several chapters of history on punishment and execution (which was intense enough), the author described what it was like to live on death row and explicitly described an execution which he had witnessed. Because I was indexing these details I couldn't skip over them. I would index for 15 minutes, then go out on the porch and cry and breathe. Whew. It was a good book, though, so I felt it was worth it. The other one was a book about the effects of violent pornography, with examples. I didn't even have the illustrations to look at, thank goodness, but just reading the descriptive captions and the analysis was extremely difficult for me. I went to my partner for counseling sessions periodically on that one. And the editor joked with me about an extra hot tub fee. >Working on a book that has a strong emotional component (an intentional >one) creates some interesting possibilities for the index. For example, I'm >discovering that this sort of arrangement for the Gorbachev entry makes >more sense than moving the real keywords to the front, because it better >captures the impression the author wants us to have of Gorbachev: > >Gorbachev, Mikhail > anger at Baltic separatists > anger at Sajudis > anger at LCP's separation from CPSU I'd have to think about it in the context of the whole index, but I'm not altogether sure this is wrong. Hmm. Of course, I have one publisher that won't allow this kind of subentry, and another one that won't allow the opposite! > >I'm also tempted, but will resist, doing something like this: > >Soviet media > on Landsbergis, 60, 71 > lies and distortions by, 55, 60, 71, 83 > on Sajudis, 83 > If the subject in the text ^is^ the lies and distortions, and you're ^sure^ you're not reading something into it, I think this is okay. Again, only you can tell what the text is saying. Do Mi ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fw: How are pay rates determined? Jonathan, Despite the fact that everybody seems to be disagreeing with you, congratulations on posting a very interesting and thought-provoking message. We've got a wonderful discussing going here. Very stimulating!! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:38:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: too good Rachel, Believe me, all clients aren't this nit-picky! You ran into a tough one, and all that for 50 cents an entry?!! I think I'd be "busy" next time they offer me an index, and the time after that, I'd raise my rates, and tell them "all your extra requirements, which other publishers don't have for me, mean more work for me, so I must charge more". Believe me, you'd be on firm ground. I'd say they are asking too much, too many unnecessary things, at too low a rate. They need to be educated. Elinor's posting said it all. And, as Elinor said, "keep up the good work, you will be rewarded." This is all part of the "cutting the teeth" process, and if I were you, I 'd treat it as part of the learning process that a new indexes goes through. Believe me, there are better clients out there, and when you get some, you will appreciate them after this one! I hope you continue with your marketing efforts so you do not remain totally dependent on this client. They need to be replaced, eased out. Good luck! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:38:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How are pay rates determined? Friends, Responding to Kari Bero's posting (see snippets below) where she speaks of professional writing and speaking, I say: Yes! Yes!!! Yes!!!! I couldn't agree more! I think writing and speaking out is an often underused part of our professional life. Our industry hasn't provided enough education to the publishers or their staff members about indexes, what they are, what goes into creating one, what a good one is, etc. Editorial staff just expect an index, and need an index, and I don't think they think about them any more than that in most publishing houses. So it's up to us, as professionals, to raise the knowledge level, whether on an individual basis, face to face (or phone to phone), or by writing and speaking. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing << If publishers want _usable_ indexes, they have to pay. [friendly snips] If ... they don't know what is a "good" index, and what is a "bad" index, then we have a responsibility to educate them. ... And, they have a responsibility to learn.... How will they learn what a good indexer can do? That is where we come in. We need to write articles for publishing industry journals and newsletters. We need to speak at their conferences and local meetings. We need to show them two indexes for the same book: one good, one not so. Just a small investment of our time can do wonders for their understanding of what they do. Until we show them, they'll think all we do is read the book and type these words into a computer. >> K.Bero ================================================================= ======== Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:12:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: (long) Re: How are pay rates determined? In a message dated 96-10-31 10:17:39 EST, Kari writes: > And I admit that when I did an index for a 450 page technical manual that > cost the publisher nearly $5,000, while I'm used to indexes for which I > charge about half that, I asked myself "what made _this_ publisher say it > was worth it?" Do I think it was worth it? Yes. I did a terrific job, > followed their guidelines, and created a fabulous product. Granted, > technical manuals are a different story. But, if you do not know what > indexers actually do, the invoice could make your jaw drop. With technical manuals, we could have a much more solidly-based argument for what an index is worth. If a company sends out a software package with an indexless manual, their technical support costs will rise. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Most companies probably know exactly how much each question costs to answer, and I have seen figures like $15.00 or $20.00, including technician's time, equipment, costs of maintaining a knowledgebase, benefits, phone system, 800 numbers, billing 900 number payments, etc. If an index eliminates just 1 phone call per day, that's $5475 if you use the $15.00 figure. Since I think that an index probably eliminates more than one phone call per day, charging $5000 is still cheaper than answering the phone. It has a direct cost relationship. By the way, anyone using this argument on their next bid can certainly send chocolate my way..... Jan C. Wright