From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JAN-1997 10:05:02.95 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9611E" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:43:48 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9611E" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:20:47 -0800 Reply-To: maddox@iafrica.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah and Peter Maddox Subject: South Africans? I=92ve lurked on this list for a few months now. Thankyou, everyone, for the interesting discussions, and for the companionship. Are there any other South African indexers on the list? Mail me if you would like to compare notes, or perhaps even meet face to face if you=92r= e in the Cape Town area too. Sarah Maddox ____________________________________________________________ http://mickey.iafrica.com/~maddox/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Fun in indexes > >Since I had the rare pleasure of no length limitations for the index, I >included the subentry "no comfort in his grave". I pointed it out in my >cover memo to the editor, who found it amusing and said it could stay. >Both of us saw it as a sort of signature line for me in the index. And >I'm sure any reader looking up Sir John A would get a smile. No doubt Sir John is smiling in his grave. I like the idea of a "signature line" in an index. Why not develop a little personal style? Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:34:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: Referring to Legal Cases I am no lawyer and defer certainly to Hazel's expertise in this regard (see her recent post on this subject), but for those of us who are not lawyers and only do an occasional law topic, the following references are things that I have found helpful: 1) Indexing Legal Materials, edited by Elizabeth Moys, Society of Indexers Occasional Papers on Indexing, No. 2. (1993) Available from the Society of Indexers, ISBN 1-871577-14-4. 2) The Legal Research Manual: A Game Plan for Legal Research and Analysis, by Christopher G. Wren and Jill Robinson Wren. 2nd ed. Adams & Ambrose Publishing (Madison, WI). (1986) ISBN 0-916951-16-2 (pbk.). This has a good chapter on legal citations and their meanings. At 02:14 PM 11/28/96 -0500, JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: >A question for a friend .... > >How would one index a legal case that appears in a discussion as "In the >memorable case of "In re Neagle" (1890), which still makes good reading for >those ... Justice Samuel Miller spoke with feeling of ....." The book is >about the presidency, so it is not full of legal citations, and is not meant >for use necessarily by the legal community, but rather by historians and >history buffs. ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:33:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: fun in indexes! In an index to a software manual done at the company I worked for back in the early 70's, the indexer put in these cross references (sorted properly of course): Circle see Circuit Circuit see Loop Loop see Orbit Orbit see Ring Ring see Circle To my knowledge their was never one complaint or comment about this. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:54:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Objects and Methods A question for the programmer types in the group . . . I have a reference chapter that lists and describes objects and methods. Objects are in one section, methods in another. Consider the Math object. The method section describes a number of methods to be used with the object. Is it useful to have "See also" references from the entry for the Math object to the associated methods? The index would look like this: Math object, 422 See also acos method See also asin method See also atan method See also cos method See also sin method See also tan method I know I can save some space by compressing the list to a string, I'm just asking if it is a useful thing to do. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:35:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: methods to the indexing madness Dick Evans wrote: >A question for the programmer types in the group . . . >> >Math object, 422 > See also acos method > See also asin method > See also atan method > See also cos method > See also sin method > See also tan method > Dick, It's a little hard to tell from context. Is there an appendix that lists/connects the methods for each object? If so, I think a reference to that table or appendix might be useful, or a generic cross reference of the form: Math object, 422 See also specific methods I'm assuming that the methods themselves are indexed. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:50:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: ethics among indexers >Will the proposed code also treat the relationship between indexer and >client? No, because ASI already has a code for that. Did you know that? Neither did I. I'm hoping to get a copy of it soon to look at. > >Fred Leise >"Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services > >P.S. I think the idea of the code is a good one. Thanks, Fred! Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:54:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? >>put things like "Klink macro, see also Col. Hogan", but that never makes >>it past the proofreader. :) > >I heard somone say recently that she put an entry for her mother's name in an >index just to see how well the index was edited. The bogus entry was in the >published index! Er, um, excuse me for saying so, but this doesn't sound like a very nice thing to do to a production editor. And don't they hit the roof when they find out about it later. And isn't it possible that readers, even if they get a chuckle out of it, will take the author less seriously? I assume y'all are talking about injecting humor into indexes of serious books, or are you talking only about humor books? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 21:58:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: methods to the indexing madness At 08:35 PM 11/29/96 -0500, you wrote: >Dick Evans wrote: > >>A question for the programmer types in the group . . . >>> >>Math object, 422 >> See also acos method >> See also asin method >> See also atan method >> See also cos method >> See also sin method >> See also tan method >> > >Dick, > >It's a little hard to tell from context. Is there an appendix that >lists/connects the methods for each object? The sections I'm working on are in just such an appendix. Each object description lists the related methods and each method lists its related objects, so I guess there is no need to include the same cross refs in the index. Anyway, the issue has pretty much resolved itself. Further examination revealed there were also a string of properties related to the object, so to list all related items would have generated a string of 25 cross refs references for that object. Overall, the index would have become bloated with hundreds of such references. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:42:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: fun in indexes! >In an index to a software manual done at the company I worked for back in >the early 70's, the indexer put in these cross references (sorted properly >of course): > >Circle > see Circuit >Circuit > see Loop >Loop > see Orbit >Orbit > see Ring >Ring > see Circle > >To my knowledge their was never one complaint or comment about this. > I wonder if a lot of readers don't suspect the problem is with themselves, when they run across errors or jokes like this. They just figure it's one more technical thing they don't get yet. If they knew it all they wouldn't be reading the book. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:44:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? I assume >y'all are talking about injecting humor into indexes of serious books, or >are you talking only about humor books? Given that every subject is initially serious, how does humor come into being in the first place? Can you get there from here? Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? P.S. >Er, um, excuse me for saying so, but this doesn't sound like a very nice >thing to do to a production editor. Perhaps unexpected humor in indexes is unethical? A committee topic. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:29:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? Rhonda and all, At the risk of sounding like one of the Stodgy Old Indexers, my reaction to this topic is that I don't see the role of fun in indexes, unless it is at the request of the author or publisher, or by agreement with them both. The index is a tool, to be used by someone looking for some information to the book. It is an adjunct to the book, and not meant as a stand-alone document. As such, it should remain true to the tenor and intention of the book, as I see it, and not bring it's own humorousness with it or introduce surprises. I can't imagine a publisher appreciating finding an endless loop in an index, especially when it came as a surprise later after you were paid for your index as a Work for Hire, which means to carry out the task given you by the publisher - creation of an index - and no more. I for one would not risk my reputation by adding humor in and risking it not being well received. The only case I can make for humor in an index would be in a wild and wacky book, where the indexer was instructed to follow through on the tenor of the book to be a bit wild, and where it was known ahead of time that this would be scrutinized. I don't think it proper to get super-creative and surprise the client, who often has to take your index at the end of a long publishing process and dump it into the book at the last minute, sight unseen or cursorily looked at. Humor has its proper arena. And Professionalism is very important, and must be maintained at all times. I don't see this as a question for an Ethics Committee. I see it as a question of Professionalism, which requires the use of good judgment. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:48:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Fun in Indexes Judith Jablonski has asked me to post this for her, while she figures out why she can't post to the list. >X-Sender: jajablon@students.wisc.edu >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:00:02 -0600 >To: Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com >From: "Judith A. Jablonski" >Subject: RE: Fun in Indexes >X-UIDL: f6bd4252cf12443e89de7e4b03b09cbe > >Carol, > >I am having problems getting something to the INDEXER-L list -- would you >copy out the following and send it for me while I check things out here? >Thanks > >JJ > > >>Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:54:42 -0600 >>To: INDEX-L%BINGVMB.BitNet@wigate.nic.wisc.edu >>From: "Judith A. Jablonski" >>Subject: RE: Fun in Indexes >> >>At 08:54 PM 11/29/1996 -0600, somebody wrote: >>>>>put things like "Klink macro, see also Col. Hogan", but that never makes >>>>>it past the proofreader. :) >>>> >>>>I heard somone say recently that she put an entry for her mother's name >in an >>>>index just to see how well the index was edited. The bogus entry was in the >>>>published index! >> >>Doesn't it seem a bit odd that indexers, allegedly non-judgmental >>and simply indexing the text should feel it is ok to put in gag >>references/entries? My job is to index not to subvert the text with my >>personal notions of humor or tricking or testing the copyeditor. I can >appreciate the desire for humor but only when it's appropriate. >> >>There are two issues here: >> >>1) the ethics of responsibility or, if you prefer, the obligations of the >indexer to the text >>2) the professionalism of the indexer -- it's difficult enough to get >people to understand that what we do is a legitimate, professional job (and >not just a hobby) without contributing to the problem by undercutting >ourselves in this way >> >> >>Judith Jablonski >> >> >> >> > >*************************************** >Judith A. Jablonski >School of Library and Information Studies >University of Wisconsin - Madison >Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 13:37:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Indexing creative works in biographies, particularly music Dear Collective Wisdom I was recently reviewing a book for purchase at me library. The book which is mostly about Beethoven's compositions is well-written by an authority the subject. Being the curious newbie indexer that I am, I checked out the index. All of Beethoven's works which are discussed in the book are listed in the main index under, yep you guessed it...Beethoven. The subheading is "Works." The sub-subheadings are by instrumentation ;the sub-sub-subheadings are by type of music; and finally the sub-sub-sub-subheadings are the titles of the pieces themselves. Whew! It looks something like this: Beethoven Works Piano Music Sonatas op.2 no.1 in F minor 30-5 ......... . . . Variations op. 34 in F major 27, 51, 79-80, 88 . . . Chamber Music etc. etc. etc. And yes you're right "Piano Music" is before "Chamber Music." That's the way it is in the book. The book does have a separate index for the works discussed arranged by the opus numbers. I thought that was nice but the main index doesn't mention the composition index at all. The question that I have is how could I do this index differently if I were indexing the book? I like having a separate compositions index but I'm not sure that arranging it by opus number is all that useful to the reader. And how could one arrange the works in the book so that they were more easily findable in the index particularly given the complexities of uniform titles for musical compositions? (e.g. Symphony, Sonata, Quartet etc.) Should Beethoven's Piano Concertos be under "Piano" or under "Concertos?" Should there be a cross-reference or another index listing works under opus numbers? The need for the information is not pressing. I don't have a deadline looming, but I would like to know how this issue could be handled for future reference. TIA. Regards Julia Marshall juliam@capaccess.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:27:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? Hello, all - Well, I'm afraid I am also an SOI (See: Perlman, J., on indexers, stodgy and old; Jablonski, J., on professionalism). Humor is such a subjective thing; my experience with Usenet newsgroups and electronic forums of various types (including this list, now that I think about it) has taught me that comments designed to provoke an amused smile will often merely provoke. In a work-for-hire situation, I think I would prefer to err on the side on offending and amusing no one rather than amusing some and offending others, especially others I hope to work for again. As for testing the proofreader or editor, that seems like a sure way to lose future work. That said, I must also add that I would dearly love to be the indexer for some of the books that have been mentioned in this thread; there certainly is a place for humorous indexes, but I think that place is in books where the author and publisher request humor, or where the indexer sees an opportunity, suggests the humor, and gets approval before, not after, creating the entries. Anyway, don't get me wrong: I'm a funny person, I like funny things, and I would love to write funny books and/or funny indexes. Feel free to send me any manuscripts you have lying around that need giggle entries in the index; I'll do my best. :-) Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 20:20:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing creative works in biographies, particularly music Julia, The index you cited leaves a lot to be desired, for sure. Essentially it is a classified list (see H. Wellisch on that). My suggestion would be as follows. To be helpful, start sonatas with the instrument, to differentiate, for example, sonatas for piano from those for violin, otherwise, just use the title with parenthetical phrases for identification. Use cross references as necessary, such as with works that have a popular nickname. Do not use a separate compositions index. Put the works in the appropriate place in the main index. We know that readers rarely discover that there is more than one index, no matter how many signals are given. Apartments Appassionata Sonata. see Piano Sonata in F Minor Illnesses, Love life, Piano Sonata in F Minor, Op. 2, No. 1, 30-35 Piano Sonata in F Minor, Op. 57 ("Appassionata"), 78-83 Piano Variations. see Variations in F Major Quartets. see String quartets String Quartet in B-flat Major, Op. 130, No. 1, 24-28 Symphony No. 3 in E-Flat Major, Op. 55 ("Eroica), 56-60 Travels Use of folk melodies Variations in F Major, Op. 34 (piano), 27, 51, 79-80, 88 Violin Sonata in A Major, Op. 30, No. 1, 8-12, 29 That saves the multiple levels of the classified list, and still keeps works for similar mediums together, as they will for the most part fall together in the listing. Appropriate cross references can direct the reader to other works for an instrument not beginning with its name (as in Piano Variations, above). Typographical treatment of titles of musical works are given in Chicago Manual of Style. In general, musical titles are a thorny issue, but the idea, of course, is to be as easy on the reader as possible That's my .02. I'd be happy to discuss this with you further. You may send me e-mail directly. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services Editor, The Voice of Chorus America Manager, Newberry Consort