From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JAN-1997 10:03:58.09 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9611B" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:43:40 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9611B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:33:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Indexer Needed Lucent Technologies in Denver needs a professional indexer familiar with FrameMaker 5.0 to create a master index and test hypertext links. The product library contains 7-10 manuals, a total of approximately 6,000 pages. The indexer should be available to work on site part-time (days & hours of your choice), starting within the next 2-4 weeks. For more information, contact Randy Fox at 303-538-3201 or Roxanne Tozier at 303-538-4772. NOTE: Please do not contact me. I have posted this announcement simply as a courtesy to Lucent Technologies. Lori Lathrop ****************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:20:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: ? on marketing >I was amazed at the number of presses which seemed to >prefer author indexes, saying their authors are happy (!) to do the indexes >themselves. > >What do you think? Cindy, I think my response would start with this question: "And are you happy with those indexes?" I wonder if you couldn't get them thinking by anticipating this response in your marketing packet. That is, you could "hook" them with a provocative statement (in big, big type) like any of these: If your authors were willing to design the covers of their own books, would you let them? 10 reasons why the author isn't always the best person to index the book. Do you settle for author-written indexes? [Back to Carol, live.] Well, you get the idea. Production editors may *say* they don't need us, but where is it written that we must take that first "no" for an answer? Another approach--a gentler, subtler one--might be something like, "I'm glad your authors are able to write good indexes for you, deliver them on time, and so on. I'd like to send you my resume and a sample of my work in case one of your authors doesn't have the time to write the index." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:20:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: philosophy index >a)Life, purpose of > pursuit of chocolate, 10 > pursuit of cool Web sites, 15 > union with God, 71 > >b)Life, purpose of > Hume on, 71 > Kant on, 10 > Plato on, 15 > Hey, a philosophy requisitttttte (oops, Monty Python alert!)! Hi, Heather. I do a fair number of philosophy books, so I'll take a crack at this question. Do (b) and list those philosophers also as main entries. Assuming there's only the one passage on each philosopher, you'd get this: chocolate, pursuit of, 10 God, union with, 71 Hume, 71 Kant, 10 Life, purpose of Hume on, 71 Kant on, 10 Plato on, 15 Plato, 15 Web sites, cool, pursuit of, 15 Now, I wasn't sure whether you meant (1) that those views of the meaning of life *are* what each of those philosophers had to say about the meaning of life (given the page numbers, I suspect this is what you meant) or (2) that those are *additional* discussions of the meaning of life. If (1), I would just do (b). If (2), I'd do this: chocolate, pursuit of, 10 God, union with, 71 Hume, 71 Kant, 10 Life, purpose of Hume on, 71 Kant on, 10 Plato on, 15 pursuit of chocolate, 10 pursuit of cool Web sites, 15 union with God, 71 Plato, 15 Web sites, cool, pursuit of, 15 Other tips on indexing philosophy books? 1. If you expect to be doing more of them, then you'll definitely want to buy the fabulous _Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy_, edited by Robert Audi. The pb version is 882 pages, and it has 4,000 entries and cross-references ($27.95). 2. Philosophy books tend to require inclusion of more stuff from the notes than you might think. It's a good idea to check with your production editor about that. 3. If there's substantive discussion of their books, e.g., the First Critique, you should include those books as main entries (i.e., don't treat them as mere citations--sorry if I'm stating the obvious). 4. Study the indexes of some philosophy books (I know, I know, I'm stating the obvious again). [I know I know, therefore I think I think.] I can't think of anything else at this late hour, but if you have specific questions, please post again. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GLASSMANDL@AOL.COM Subject: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? Here's my problem..... I'm green. Here's my related problem... I exported my index to WordPerfect with the page ranges separated by endashes. I feel more comfortable editing in WordPerfect rather than my indexing software(Hyperindex). I did extensive modifications in WordPerfect which placed hypens between page numbers. Now I have page ranges separated by two different lengths. Does WordPerfect have a key somewhere for endashes? Is there a more elegant way to change them all to the same format without doing it by hand one by one? Don Glassman I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere near the place. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:27:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes In response to Don Glassman, who asks about converting hyphens to en dashes in WordPerfect: Take a look at the CHARACTER.DOC file that comes with WordPerfect; that will give you the numeric equivalent of the en dash (which, if I remember correctly, is 4,33). Next do a search and replace (ALT+F2), specifying a hyphen for the first option (search) and 4,33 for the second option (replace). WordPerfect will prompt you to respond "Y" or "N" and, if you do *not* have entries with hyphens, you can let WordPerfect perform a global change; if you *do* have entries with hyphens, you should let WordPerfect stop at each occurrence for your verification. I hope this makes sense and answers your questions. If you need more info, please let me know. Happy indexing .... Lori ****************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 08:37:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? Don, I see that Lori gave you a good response, but I suspect you're using a Mac because you mentioned HyperIndex, and on a Mac it's different. I use Word, not Wordperfect, but in Word (and I'm sure they're similar as most Mac programs use the same conventions), if you hold down the option key while pressing the hyphen key, you will get an en dash. (For an em dash, btw, hold the option and shift keys while pressing the hyphen.) If you want to make global changes, go to your Find/Replace menu, put a hyphen in the Find box and an en dash in the Replace box, but go one at a time, *not* "Replace All" or you'll end up with en dashes between compounds and you don't want that. You do have to go one at a time, but it's faster to use the find/replace than doing it manually. OR, you could go ahead and do a Replace All, and then go back through and change any compounds back. There will obviously be far fewer compounds than page ranges. You could still use the find/replace (FIND en dash, REPLACE hyphen) and just Find Next over the page ranges until you get to a compound that you need to change. I think this way would be faster. It sounds clumsy but it should work. Do I make any sense at all? If WordPerfect won't let you type an en dash into the dialog box using Opt-hyphen, then copy one from your text and paste it into the box. That will definitely work. Good luck. Let me know if you need clarifications off list. Rachel >Here's my problem..... I'm green. >Here's my related problem... >I exported my index to WordPerfect with the page ranges separated by >endashes. I feel more comfortable editing in WordPerfect rather than my >indexing software(Hyperindex). >I did extensive modifications in WordPerfect which placed hypens between page >numbers. Now I have page ranges separated by two different lengths. >Does WordPerfect have a key somewhere for endashes? >Is there a more elegant way to change them all to the same format without >doing it by hand one by one? >Don Glassman > >I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. >You couldn't park anywhere near the place. > -- Steven Wright Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:09:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Benson Subject: Speed Reading Course Has anyone taken a speed reading course as an indexing aid? I have almost finished the Basic Indexing course and will start a freelance indexing career by next year. I've seen Howard Berg's infomercial on TV for his Mega Reading Course. Cost is $170 for the audio tapes & video. Supposedly takes four hours. Although I'm not a slow reader, I figure any edge I can get would help when working on a tight schedule. I'm new to the list, but have already learned and been able to apply several things, specifically the discussion of heading letters and blank lines. Thanks to all. Carol Benson Morrisville Vermont ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:30:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Speed Reading Course On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Carol Benson wrote: > Has anyone taken a speed reading course as an > indexing aid? I have almost finished the > Basic Indexing course and will start a freelance > indexing career by next year. I've seen Howard > Berg's infomercial on TV for his Mega Reading > Course. Cost is $170 for the audio tapes & video. > Supposedly takes four hours. Although I'm not a > slow reader, I figure any edge I can get would > help when working on a tight schedule. Now, granted, I haven't seen the infomercial. But my gut feeling is that you should save your money. Sure, it's a help to be able to read faster. But will reading faster aid your comprehension of the material? I'm sure that, from the USDA course, you've already learned that reading for indexing isn't like reading for pleasure. You have to concentrate in a totally different way--and actually in a totally different way from that you'd probably use for editing and proofreading, I think. (I also edit and proofread.) While you're reading, you have to think of synonyms and antonyms, interrelationships between terms and between parts of the book, how the book fits together as a whole, and on and on. I think you'd be much better off using $170 for indexing software, good reference books, office supplies, and the like. If you haven't edited before, a course in editing might be extremely worthwhile. (Also, I don't trust infomercials!) Just my $.02. Hazel (who has never taken a speed-reading course) Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) Sign that your cat has learned your Internet password: Your Web browser has a new home page: http://www.feline.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 16:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Look of finished index I always export my CINDEX files to WordPerfect for final printout. Using a proportional font makes the index easier to read and certainly looks more profession. In addition, there is the handy, enlarged diacritical letter set. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301@AOL.COM Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes Thanks Lori! The en dash in WordPerfect been a snarly "how Does this WorK?!!" for me for a bit. I just use too many differenct wordprocessors and none of them thoroughly. Another indexer told me she hasn't upgraded her version of WordPerfect because 4.2 formats indexes just fine for her clients. I don't share that mindset: I'm using the Windows version 6.1 and will migrate to 7.x soon. I remembered the business of inserting a code with some key stroke combination in earlier versions of WP but how did this one do it....?? Reading your message this morning got me into clearing this one up for me. I opened the manual and looked up en dash. It wasn't clear on how to do it, just described what one was, but then I remembered the INSERT CHARACTER command. Click on Insert. Click on Character and it asks you what number combination do you want. What a noodle I've been. I didn't ever really need this because I worked around it. Sometimes it's the smallest bits of information that make the biggest difference... THANKS! Deborah Deborah Patton INDEXER Baltimore, MD 410/243-4688 dp1301@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:30:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? The code in Wordperfect for en dashes is Control 2 and then 4, 33. I use Cindex and actually use the = as my connector and then do a global change to the new code. This works quickly. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:41:57 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? >I exported my index to WordPerfect with the page ranges separated by >endashes. I feel more comfortable editing in WordPerfect rather than my >indexing software(Hyperindex). >I did extensive modifications in WordPerfect which placed hypens between page >numbers. Now I have page ranges separated by two different lengths. >Does WordPerfect have a key somewhere for endashes? >Is there a more elegant way to change them all to the same format without >doing it by hand one by one? >Don Glassman Years ago, when I was using WordPerfect on an IBM clone, it was perfectly capable of doing global changes. Since you mentioned HyperIndex, I assume that you're using WordPerfect on a Mac (or clone). Given that, doesn't WordPerfect have good global change capabilities? If so, you *could*, as goofy as this sounds, do 10 global changes (where @ is standing in for the en dash): change to 0- 0@ 1- 1@ 2- 2@ 3- 3@ and so on. That should catch all the page ranges without changing the hyphens in phrases, assuming you don't have numerical entries with hyphens in them. And it should be pretty quick. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 07:05:51 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon Subject: On marketing This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BBD067.F020A220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- From: Jon To: Indexer's Discussion Group Subject: Re: ? on marketing Date: Monday, 11 November 1996 21:34 ---------- > From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" > > I was amazed at the number of presses which seemed to > prefer author indexes, saying their authors are happy (!) to do the indexes > themselves. How in the world can we break through and PROVE that most of > the time professional indexers do better indexes. A few random thoughts: Without having seen a comparison I would be reluctant to say that "most of the time professional indexers do better indexes". I have seen some appalling indexes done by 'professional' indexers, but I think we tend to ignore them as being done by not *really* professional indexers. Also some of the best indexes are done by authors - one won the AUSSI medal a few years ago. I recently used an index which I guessed was author generated: partly because it used _passim_ which I had recently noticed in the publishers' guide to authors who index (they also send this guide to their professional indexers); and partly because it was not very good (so I, too, am asuming that author indexes are not so good). I wanted to find material on the evaluation of adult education courses and found *nothing* in the index on evaluation, despite the fact that there was a whole chapter on the subject. I was tempted to write to the publisher and say that while I found the book excellent, the index failed me, and perhaps they should use a different indexer next time... But I didn't do it, mainly because for some reason I didn't feel comfortable with the idea. I guess I am used to giving my opinion when it is asked for, and unsolicited criticism seems a bit self-seeking. On the other hand, feedback like this about indexes must be one approach for their improvement.(And feedback about identified flaws is simpler and quicker to generate than complete alternative indexes). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- A while ago I went to a joint meeting of editors and indexers where a publisher started off saying that the best person to index a book was a professional indexer, however half way through her talk she was saying that the author knows the book intimately and must therefore be the best person to index...This suggests to me that editors and publishers actually don't know what they think, and that what they do is based on precedent and the fact that standard budgeting expects the author to index the book. Authors do the job for financial rather than quality reasons. Thus lobbying for indexing to be a publishing expense might be the most significant step to increasing the use of professional indexers. Regards, Glenda. ------=_NextPart_000_01BBD067.F020A220 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



----------
From: = Jon <Diagonal@onaustralia.com.au>
To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Subject: Re:   ? on = marketing
Date: Monday, 11 November 1996 = 21:34



----------
> From: =    "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" <cbertel@NRV.NET>
>

> I was amazed at the number = of presses which seemed to
> prefer author indexes, saying their = authors are happy (!) to do the indexes
> themselves.  How in = the world can we break through and PROVE that most of
> the time = professional indexers do better indexes.

A few random = thoughts:

Without having seen a comparison I would be reluctant = to say that "most of the time professional indexers do better = indexes". I have seen some appalling indexes done by 'professional' = indexers, but I think we tend to ignore them as being done by not = *really* professional indexers. Also some of the best indexes are done = by authors - one won the AUSSI medal a few years ago.

I recently = used an index which I guessed was author generated: partly because it = used _passim_ which I had recently noticed in the publishers' =  guide to authors who index (they also send this guide to their = professional indexers); and partly because it was not very good (so I, = too, am asuming that author indexes are not so good). I wanted to find = material on the evaluation of adult education courses and found = *nothing* in the index on evaluation, despite the fact that there was a = whole chapter on the subject. I was tempted to write to the publisher = and say that while I found the book excellent, the index failed me, and = perhaps they should use a different indexer next time...

But I = didn't do it, mainly because for some reason I didn't feel comfortable = with the idea. I guess I am used to giving my opinion when it is asked = for, and unsolicited criticism seems a bit self-seeking. On the other = hand, feedback like this about indexes must be one approach for their = improvement.(And feedback about identified flaws is simpler and quicker = to generate than complete alternative indexes). =

-----------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
A while ago I went to a joint meeting of editors and = indexers where a publisher started off saying that the best person to = index a book was a professional indexer, however half way through her = talk she was saying that the author knows the book intimately and must = therefore be the best person to index...This suggests to me that editors = and publishers actually don't know what they think, and that what they = do is based on precedent and the fact that standard budgeting expects = the author to index the book. Authors do the job for financial rather = than quality reasons.

Thus lobbying for indexing to be a = publishing expense might be the most significant step to increasing the = use of professional indexers.

Regards,

Glenda. =




------=_NextPart_000_01BBD067.F020A220-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:39:00 GMT0 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: Re: Look of finished index > I always export my CINDEX files to WordPerfect for final printout. > Using a > proportional font makes the index easier to read and certainly looks > more > profession. In addition, there is the handy, enlarged diacritical > letter set. > > Fred Leise > "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services Whereas I have stuck to non-proportional stick-in-the-mud Courier. I have never done typesetting, but I wonder if it is easier to keep one's place if the typescript is non-proportional. Marking may be easier too. I would be grateful for comments, though. _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:06:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: On marketing At 07:05 AM 11/12/96 +1100, Jon wrote: >I recently used an index which I guessed was author generated: partly >because it used _passim_ which I had recently noticed in the publishers' >guide to authors who index (they also send this guide to their professional >indexers); and partly because it was not very good (so I, too, am asuming >that author indexes are not so good). I've oftened wondered about the near-universal proscription on the use of "passim" in professional indexes. It seems to me that this term has a perfectly good purpose (which, of course, doesn't mean that it can't be absued)...that of warning the reader that within the page range given, the mention of the topic is "in pasing." In other words, the occurrence isn't subtantive enough to be pulled out into a subentry, but it IS there. I'd like to know this, before I invest the time to scan the pages in question. Most of the time, I'd skip reading them, but sometimes I would want to take a look. Why is "passim" so awful? The part that I am responding to, below, seems to have been from Glenda but it appeared in Jon's post. >A while ago I went to a joint meeting of editors and indexers where a >publisher started off saying that the best person to index a book was a >professional indexer, however half way through her talk she was saying that >the author knows the book intimately and must therefore be the best person >to index...This suggests to me that editors and publishers actually don't >know what they think, and that what they do is based on precedent and the >fact that standard budgeting expects the author to index the book. Authors >do the job for financial rather than quality reasons. I'd say that BECAUSE the author knows the book intimately, he or she is probably NOT the best person to do the index. Why? Because an intimate knowledge of the contents of the book is exactly what readers do not have! Our job is to guide the reader to find what he or she is looking for, and we have developed the ability to read the work in queston as a reader, not an author. A person who already has an intimate knowledge of the book doesn't think in terms of synonyms for entry terms, or "see also" references, or whether or not his/her structure will be immediately apparent to readers. I think there is an excellent case to be made for professional indexers specifically because they act as intelligent readers first and indexers second. Authors cannot usually shed the "author" persona and look at their book from the perspective of the reader searching for information. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:06:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Look of finished index At 09:39 PM 11/11/96 GMT0, John Sampson wrote: >Whereas I have stuck to non-proportional stick-in-the-mud Courier. I have >never done typesetting, but I wonder if it is easier to keep one's place >if the typescript is non-proportional. Marking may be easier too. I would >be grateful for comments, though. I use Courier, too, since it is a nonproportional font. It doesn't look very pretty but it does give typesetters an easy way to do a castoff of the length of the typeset ms. I've not been asked to provide camera-ready copy for my indexes, but I could certainl do that if necessary. If I were sending an index as a sample of my work, I'd probably print it out in something comfortable to read, like Times New Roman, and translate all the blding and italics correctly. I always send my "working indexes" as ASCII text and use specific characters to denote bold or italic. I also include a README.1ST file on each disk (as well as a printout of the file), explaining what each of these characters represents. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:56:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: complaining to publisher Recently I read a book (which happened to be on a topic I knew extremely well) and found that it had any number of typos, at least one really stupid factual error, and a very poor index. As it was from a prominent publisher and was an expensively produced book with lots of pictures, I was quite upset about this. I have already drafted a stiff letter to them. Now I am cooling down and am starting to wonder, what is the point, it will go in the wastebasket. The publisher is in the U.K. and is not one I would ever be likely to work for; moreover I don't plan to mention that I'm a proofreader or an indexer, though I may say I'm a librarian. In fact, at my old library job this is the sort of reference book we would have used at least once a week, and at least once a week we would have roundly cursed it for its wretched index and other faults. (The general level of the text, by the way, is excellent, though there were lots of authors. If it had been a lousy book all the way around I would not have been nearly as annoyed.) I am not a tactful person by nature, and don't always write well when I'm ticked off. Can anybody suggest an argument or way of putting the matter that might actually make this letter have an effect on somebody? The book came out in 1995, so reviews and whatnot are already a thing of the past. Or should I just drop the whole thing? Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Russell Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? >I did extensive modifications in WordPerfect which placed hypens between page >numbers. Now I have page ranges separated by two different lengths. >Does WordPerfect have a key somewhere for endashes? >Is there a more elegant way to change them all to the same format without >doing it by hand one by one? >Don Glassman Character Set 4 (Typographic Symbols) has an n-dash, I think. I can't tell from the chart whether it's 33 or 50. To insert it, press Ctrl-v, then 4,33. You can put it in a macro key to make typing it easier. But, unless you're sending camera ready copy, it's safer to use a code for the n-dash and let the client's typesetter insert whatever it wants. I use . Assuming you have no hyphens elsewhere in the text that should stay hyphens, you can use search-and-replace to change them all automatically to whatever you want. Janet Russell Corofin Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:25:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: complaining to publisher Helen, I can't advise you what to do -- you have every right to voice your opinion to the publisher. Why not? I will, however, share my experience with you. I have written a letter complaining about a book not having an index and suggesting that an index is important in this day and age of information retrieval, and how to contact ASI to find a qualified indexer. I never got so much as a response. Did it do any good? Will it ever? WHo knows? But .... that's not a good reason not to write the letter. Perhaps enough such letters will make a difference. I know of people who have gotten work from the publisher after writing such a letter, so there is another side to the story. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:54:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? In-Reply-To: <199611112306.SAA02368@polaris.net> I think I may've missed some postings on this topic, so please please let me know if I have. The publishers I work for have never asked me to substitute en-dashes for hyphens in indexes. I just use hyphens for page ranges. Do lots of you get this request? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) Sign that your cat has learned your Internet password: Your Web browser has a new home page: http://www.feline.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:10:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pat McKenna Subject: French indexing practices Hello indexers, Could someone tell me if the practice of using f and ff is acceptable in French indexes and if the answer is yes, if f is indeed the letter used or does it translate into another letter? Looking forward to some help on this one. Librarian & Information Consultant Box 76, Ottawa ON Canada K1N 8V1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:40:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fred Brown <75324.1707@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Embedded Index in FrameMaker Lori Lathrop wrote: >Lucent Technologies in Denver needs a professional indexer familiar with >FrameMaker 5.0 to create a master index and test hypertext links. >The product library contains 7-10 manuals, a total of approximately 6,000 pages. > >The indexer should be available to work on site part-time (days & hours of your >choice), starting within the next 2-4 weeks. > >For more information, contact Randy Fox at 303-538-3201 or Roxanne Tozier at >303-538-4772. I called Randy Fox and discussed his problem. The document set consists of 100 plus FrameMaker files. His technical writers check the files in and out of a library database using a custom FrameMaker API. The index must be embedded because the FrameMaker document will be converted into an online, Adobe Acrobat format and the index will consist of hypertext links. Randy wants an indexer on-site so that the indexing can proceed in parallel with the writing and editing. He was resistant to the idea that it is most efficient to index a document, or chapter thereof, once the editing is complete (with at most final proof reading left). He was equally uncomfortable with sending the FrameMaker files off-site. Randy summarized his feelings this way, "I need an indexer that will meet the needs of the technical writers and not the needs of the indexer." Meanwhile, Randy's technical writers are under considerable stress and some indexing help would be just the thing. What should Randy do? Is there a way in which a professional indexer can assist? Fred Brown * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fred Brown McCrae Consulting Associates "technical writing and indexing" 75324.1707@compuserve.com Phone: 613-728-5761 Fax: 613-728-9373 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:37:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: complaining to publisher Perhaps the tricky word is "complaining." Even if a letter is wholy positive, there's a good chance your words will end up in the trash. But as we know, there are very few people who actually write to publishers to comment on the books; if anyone gets a comment, it's the author -- as if the author were responsible for everything! Ha! :-) Not to start any threads about politics (please, I've had enough of politics for a while), I heard once that every letter received by a Congressperson counts as a letter from 1000 people. In other words, only one out of every 1000 people ever write to these politicians. So that means that the letter has more impact; the author of that note is not simply "one opinion," but it is treated as representative of 1000 opinions. The same is true in publishing, I imagine. I probably get a comment about my indexes once every 20 indexes -- and I'm talking about comments from readers, not editors or authors. (Authors provide constructive criticism about once every 5 indexes, but it's because I specifically ask for it as part of the indexing process.) Those readers' comments have a direct impact. If a correction or adjustment can be made, it gets made 100% of the time when the book is reprinted. On the other hand, I rarely write the reader back. I suppose I should at least say "thank you," right? I think that every letter you write to a publisher -- assuming you are writing as a READER and not as someone looking to make a buck -- will be taken seriously, even if they ultimately decide to do nothing about it. A letter that says, "I'm an indexer, and your index sucks, so you should hire me next time," I think, is asking for trouble. - Seth Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:44:56 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Look of finished index I sent this much earlier today but addressed it bitnet and it bounced back. Lo and behold I've already had responses to my unasked question, but here's my $.02 anyway. At 04:20 PM 11/9/96 -0500, Fred wrote: >I always export my CINDEX files to WordPerfect for final printout. Using a >proportional font makes the index easier to read and certainly looks more >profession. In addition, there is the handy, enlarged diacritical letter set. I output my indexes in monospaced type because I think it is physically easier to mark up in editing/proofreading. Also, I believe that things set in proportional typefaces tend to develop an authority (as Fred suggests) -- when I've worked as an editor I've found that authority to be in the way of clean work. With this in mind I have asked publishers to provide monospaced mss. for editing, where it was practical. I'm wondering if anyone else still provides monospaced mss. for their indexes or if anyone else thinks mono is easier to edit. The reason I like to make my work easy to work with from an editing standpoint is that pleasing the editor makes a happy editor. So -- any others on this? Best, Victoria Baker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:45:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: passim, use of My understanding of *passim* is that it refers to a discontinuous discussion over several pages, which might very well be further identified with a subheading. I used it in a job I just ran down to FedEx ::::catching my breath:::: I use it when it doesn't make sense to pull all the pages out as singles, when it does the user a service to group the pages with the warning that it is discontinuous discussion. I use it rarely, but I'm really glad to be able to when it is called for. I was indexing a book of essays in which certain themes were recurrent and which the author wanted indexed for each new area (e.g. race, gender, class, sexuality...). Discussing diasporic cultures and focussing on class, the author wove gender in and out of a 3 or 4 page spread. The discussion of class was continuous, the discussion of gender was *passim*. Both needed to be indexed, both had a series of other page numbers, and it was a run-on index and therefore important not to break those subentries down any farther than that. But this was a scholarly pub. I don't use *passim* at all in el-hi texts, really rarely in college texts. I don't think trade publishers use it much, but I see it occasionally. If there is a real proscription I don't know about it -- it's just that it shouldn't be overused. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:42:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? In a message dated 96-11-11 19:13:04 EST, Hazel wrote: > I think I may've missed some postings on this topic, so please please let > me know if I have. The publishers I work for have never asked me to > substitute en-dashes for hyphens in indexes. I just use hyphens for page > ranges. Do lots of you get this request? Hazel, There are only two instances in which I've been asked to use en dashes. One is for page ranges where the locators are in chapter-number-page number format as in some software manuals. For example, the range 7-2 to 7-3 is given as 7-27-3. This is far easier to read (with a real en dash, of course) than 7-2-7-3. The other situation is where you have certain phrases containing hyphenated compound words (which I can never remember the rule for and can't find the reference for in Chicago). In this second instance, I follow the usage in the text to stay on the safe side. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:42:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Embedded Index in FrameMaker In a message dated 96-11-11 22:52:50 EST, Fred wrote: > Randy wants an indexer on-site so that the indexing can proceed in parallel > with > the writing and editing. He was resistant to the idea that it is most > efficient > to index a document, or chapter thereof, once the editing is complete (with > at > most final proof reading left). He was equally uncomfortable with sending > the > FrameMaker files off-site. Randy summarized his feelings this way, "I need > an > indexer that will meet the needs of the technical writers and not the needs > of > the indexer." Fred, To be honest, I think the goal should be an index that meets the needs of the reader, the same person that the writers have in mind in doing their work. Perhaps, if this whole thing is recast in terms of the commonality of purpose shared by the writers and the indexer, the indexer could be viewed as part of the documentation team, a fellow professional, not as a necessary "evil". ;-D I don't feel that indexing in parallel with the writing process satisfies that goal unless the indexer has the opportunity to edit and polish the index once each entire book is completed and set in stone. (This project, BTW, definitely sounds like a candidate for an hourly rate. This may also be an unspoken reason for wanting the work to be performed on site.) I've indexed manuals while they were being written, however, the understanding was that the chapters were in their final state when I received them and I had the opportunity (nightmarish, BTW) to edit the entire index once the book was completed. The grueling part of this is indicating what changes need to be made in files you've embedded entries in and that you no longer have. Aiiiish!!!!!! Another big problem with doing embedded indexes in "chunks" is the very high administrative overhead this imposes. If you're running out of your office twice a day to pick up and receive Fedexes, daily filling out airbills, doing cover letters, copying files to disk, etc., this becomes an outrageous time expenditure. Been there... charged extra for that. I reread Lori's original post and noted that part of the project involves testing hypertext links. This sounds like an exercise in futility unless the documents are completed because of the likelihood of broken links due to changes in the documents. One big problem that I've experienced with working on an index to a manual that the writer is still developing is that, once the writer receives the files back, he or she can make so many changes that the index is totally wrecked. I'm not speaking of pagination changes, which aren't a problem with embedded indexes, but substantive changes to the text consisting of additional material, changes in terminology, addition or removal of product features, renaming of features or user interface components, etc. This isn't the writers' fault, but the result of the product being re-engineered and tweaked yet another time. In my personal experience, this applies equally to software and hardware, BTW. I have had to totally re-index a book from scratch because of this (charging the client twice to index what was supposed to be the same book). > > Meanwhile, Randy's technical writers are under considerable stress and some > indexing help would be just the thing. What should Randy do? Is there a > way in > which a professional indexer can assist? Having been a technical writer myself and having worked as an indexer with technical writers, I truly believe what Randy is saying about their stress level. If the writing is proceeding along with product development, the writers are writing "at a moving target", for one thing. I've had to start writing manuals before the initial prototype was even built and I've never seen a final product that truly resembled the prototype except perhaps in its purpose. ;-D It is difficult to give ideas on how the indexer can assist them without more information. For example, are they working under such a tight schedule that the idea of having to allow time for indexing at the completion of the manuals is a major problem for them? IMHO, saving the indexing until chapters, at least, are totally completed should help reduce the stress associated with files not being available during the writing process (because the indexer has them). Also, the writers shouldn't have to worry about making changes to the manuals that wreck the index, break hypertext links, etc. They have enough to worry about. Saving the index until the documents are complete gets the whole "problem" of the index and link checking out of the writers' hair. Is it possible to send the indexer a remote license for their network software along with the custom API so that the indexer can directly dial into the network and retrieve the files as they are ready? Is it possible for the indexer to work on chapters after final layout and proofreading out of order, if necessary? They may be under the impression that indexing takes longer than it actually does. If Randy is concerned about confidentiality, the indexer could execute a non-disclosure agreement with them. I wish I could offer you more than this, but there may not be a truly good off-site solution to this because of the library database situation. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 02:13:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Look of finished index In a message dated 96-11-12 00:53:29 EST, Victoria wrote: > > I'm wondering if anyone else still provides monospaced mss. for their > indexes or if anyone else thinks mono is easier to edit. > > The reason I like to make my work easy to work with from an editing > standpoint is that pleasing the editor makes a happy editor. So -- any > others on this? Victoria, I agree wholeheartedly with you that pleasing the editor makes a happy editor. ;-D It may be my particular client set, but none of my clients have given me any indication that they preferred monospace type, but I never thought to ask (eek!!!), though I ask a thousand other questions about their preferences. In fact, almost all of them take my Word files and import them directly into whatever desktop publishing software they're using, apparently without much, if any, editing. Very often, I'm sending files directly to the typesetter. (Yeah, that's scarey because that means I better get it right before it goes out the door. ;-D) The one client that I know meticulously edits my indexes, line by line, publishes material that generates so many gnarly characters, that I must use fonts other than monospaced to produce the characters accurately in the index. (See my post to the "diacriticals" thread earlier this week.) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 04:26:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: passim etc I was glad to see "passim" being championed by both Sonsie and Victoria. I have always felt guilty about my (very occasional) use of this device - it seems to have few friends, and I agree that it shouldn't be overused, as it could become a lazy habit and of no service to the reader. But I sometimes feel that nothing else will really do, for the reasons given by both Sonsie and Victoria. To use a page range, say 28-32, where there are only passing mentions of the topic over this range of pages could mislead the reader into thinking that the topic is being treated at length over five pages. Using "passim" (as long as the term is understood) should suggest that a major discussion of the topic will not be found there. Which brings me to Sonsie's q uestion, "Why is 'passim' so awful?" I suspect it's because it's a Latin word and the feeling is that the reader won't know what it means. In which case, why not include an explanation in the introductory note on the rare occasions when it seems necessary to use it. And thanks, Victoria, for your very useful comment on why the author is probably not his or her own best indexer - you really hit the nail on the head. Christine Christine Shuttleworth Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (44 181) 749 8797 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 05:09:34 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Embedded Index in FrameMaker In answer to Fred Brown's question .... I believe that the documentation manager at Lucent Technologies knows his department's needs better than anyone else does, and I also believe that the parallel process of writing and indexing is practical for technical writers, especially when they will be developing a master index. When technical writers index as they write, they can use the index as an editing tool to: (1) identify any inconsistencies in terminology (an especially important consideration in master indexes when minor variations in wording can cause separate index entries for the same topic), (2) identify organizational problems, and (3) identify any imbalances in the way topics are treated in the documentation. If technical writers wait until the very last minute to create index entries, they forego the serendipity of using the index as an editing tool. Lori P.S. Fortunately, I believe I've found someone who can work on site for Lucent Technologies. ******************************************************************* Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 03:17:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: On marketing Ummm, Christine, thank you, but I think this is the comment you refer to, and it wasn't mine. BUT I very much agree. >I'd say that BECAUSE the author knows the book intimately, he or she is >probably NOT the best person to do the index. Why? Because an intimate >knowledge of the contents of the book is exactly what readers do not have! >Our job is to guide the reader to find what he or she is looking for, and we >have developed the ability to read the work in queston as a reader, not an >author. A person who already has an intimate knowledge of the book doesn't >think in terms of synonyms for entry terms, or "see also" references, or >whether or not his/her structure will be immediately apparent to readers. > >I think there is an excellent case to be made for professional indexers >specifically because they act as intelligent readers first and indexers >second. Authors cannot usually shed the "author" persona and look at their >book from the perspective of the reader searching for information. > > > =Sonsie=> Speaking to this concern, that of publishers who depend on the authors to do their own indexes, I'll say that I run into that regularly. You have to keep looking for other publishers, is the problem, because it's a policy thing. I'm not sure production editors could act otherwise even if they were already convinced. I have received work from publishers who only refer indexers when an author is certain that she/he does not want to do it and doesn't already know someone. My guess is that we need to educate authors, although I know the tech industry does hire indexers as a matter of course. I have seen it happen, though, where a tech publisher doesn't realize the time lines involved in proper indexing and winds up with a half-hearted effort from a tech writer (who is part of a corporate-author team). Authors, authors, authors--that's who to reach. Whether an author voluntarily seeks a professional indexer seems to have a lot to do with whether she/he recognizes the value added as a result, whether that be monetary or in prestige. Sometimes this has to do with how great a book the author thinks it is, whether he/she thinks a profit will be made or not. If authors realize that many libraries won't buy books without indexes, and that therefore the index may actually be used, they begin to look at it a little differently. And, if an author has made money for a publisher previously and is educated about indexes, she/he is in a good position to negotiate for the press paying the bill. Of course there is value in talking to publishers, but much of the time, it's the author who is making the decision. How then to find and educate the author is another question. That's my $.02. Cheers, Victoria Baker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 07:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Look of finished index In-Reply-To: <199611120712.CAA21856@polaris.net> I used to use a monospaced font, when that was all that the combination of my computer and my printer could provide. Now, I've been using a proportional font. And it's true: I haven't thought about asking my clients! I indeed should. Good point. One of my clients used to give very rigid specifications: R characters per line, S spaces for an indent on a subheaad, T spaces for an indent on a sub-subhead, U spaces for an indent on a runover line, and the like. A monospaced font is really important in such cases, I think. The client isn't using these specs any longer. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:01:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mike Bernier Subject: DC ASI EVENT WASHINGTON, DC CHAPTER OF THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS Discussing the Business of Indexing Saturday, November 16, 1996 Registration, 9:30 - 10:00 Roundtable discussions, 10:00 - 12:00 Come join us as we discuss some of the basic aspects of the business of indexing. Each session will be held twice, lasting about 45 minutes each time, so that participants can attend both discussions. Getting Started/Marketing -- Susan Lohmeyer. How to get started? How to find clients? How to know whether you can index? Running the Business -- Pilar Wyman and Deborah Patton. What is involved in getting an indexing business up and running? Susan has been indexing since 1969, has run her own small business since 1985, and specializes in medical and technical materials. She taught indexing for EEI and is a Past-Chair of DC/ASI. Pilar has been a full-time indexer since 1990 and has recently joined the faculty of the USDA Correspondence Program. She is immediate Past-Chair of DC/ASI. Deborah is a part-time freelance indexer who also works part-time in a school. Previous lives include those of swimming teacher, public librarian, artist, and fundraiser. She is also the current Treasurer of DC/ASI. Getting there: Bureau of National Affairs, Indexing Services Division. 4th Floor North Building. 1231 25th Street, N.W., Washington, DC 20037 BNA is located between M and N Streets near Rock Creek Park. Enter the North Building at the breezeway, register with the guard at the front desk, and proceed to the Indexing Services Division on the 4th floor of the North Building. Reservations: Call Mike Bernier, 202-452-6395 or e-mail mbernier@bna.com Please note that the meeting is free, but advance registration is required. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 05:22:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Look of finished index At 07:14 AM 11/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >I used to use a monospaced font, when that was all that the combination of >my computer and my printer could provide. Now, I've been using a >proportional font. And it's true: I haven't thought about asking my >clients! I indeed should. Good point. > As a recovering proofreader, I am a pest asking clients how they want the manuscript submitted and checking with their druthers once it has been submitted. I believe that the points for nonproportional type are execellent, but certainly not the wishes of my clients. Oddly, I sent a version with the extended Cindex characters (most noticeable in indented subs) printing. Everyone connected with that client much prefers having the extended characters visible. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com http://www.electriciti.com:80/~prider/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:05:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: On marketing At 03:17 AM 11/12/96 -0800, Victoria Baker wrote: >Of course there is value in talking to publishers, but much of the time, >it's the author who is making the decision. How then to find and educate >the author is another question. That's my $.02. In the U.S., it is true that it is ultimately the author that we as indexers need to be concerned with. I generally work for academic presses, some of which encourage their authors to use professional indexers rather than do it themselves. Others arrange for an indexer when the author does not want to do the index. I believe that we as indexers would have a stronger case all over (for professional vs. author-generated indexes) if we could get the opinions of the user out in the open and provide some quantifiable data in support of our argument (that users need an index that is designed from the point of view of a reader, not of an author). How to get the supportive data is the hard part here. Glenda's suggestion was a good one, pointing out to a publisher how an omission in an index affected you as a user, etc. One good way to increase author awareness of the importance of good indexes would be to do as Jean Thompson suggested. On Oct. 15, 1996 Jean A. Thompson made the following suggestion: >Perhaps a good vehicle for such a series [educating authors in academia] >would be _The Chronicle of Higher Education_ which comes out weekly 48 >times per year. What do Index-Lers think? Jean Thompson A series of articles on indexes and their importance might be a place to start, as would articles or announcements in professional newsletters, writers magazines, etc. At 03:17 AM 11/12/96 -0800, Victoria Baker wrote: > If authors realize that many libraries buy books without indexes, and that >the index may actually be used, they begin to look at it a little differently. I have a question about this statement, in regard to the libraries. It was my understanding that most libraries will NOT buy a reference book without an index (of course, if the format of the book is in some way alphabetic, then of course an index wouldn't always be necessary). ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Hyphens vs endashes; monospaced font In a message dated 96-11-11 19:13:04 EST, Hazel wrote: << I think I may've missed some postings on this topic, so please please let me know if I have. The publishers I work for have never asked me to substitute en-dashes for hyphens in indexes. I just use hyphens for page ranges. Do lots of you get this request? >> The only client I have with this requirement has me code the en-dashes as [ND]. I set up Macrex to substitute this code for the hyphen in the final file that I output. (Until then, I use hyphens in the hard copies I print for editing the index.) Otherwise, I simply use hyphens and have heard no complaints from clients. And on the question of the font used for the manuscript: I learned in the USDA Basic Indexing course to submit the manuscript in a monspaced font (see Mulvany, p. 197) and have done so ever since (with no requests to modify my practice.) When a client gives me specs for line length, I set the right margin and tabs (for subentries and turnovers) in Word to conform to their specs. The only complication is that my line count is usually higher than theirs ends up being, because the lines break differently in a proportional font. When I'm running up against a line limit, this means that I may have a few more lines than is apparent, and some editors realize this and let me go over the limit (if needed, of course.) BTW, I do not change the font of the word processing file I send to the client, as I assume they will read it in to whatever software they're using and promptly change the font. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:24:28 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Speed Reading Course I share Hazel's skepticism of infomercials, but I'm still insterested in the issue of speed reading per se. I could see how it might be quite useful for that first read through the book (before marking up or keying in anything, when you would of course need to read very closely). If I could shave a few hours off that task, it would be well worth $170 to me over the course of a year. So I'd still like to hear from anyone here who's tried it--and which course they took. Isn't the Evelyn Wood course still around? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:03:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: LONG! Copyright Protection for Facts Another assault on intellectual property rights? The following is a bit long (20Kb), but worth reading. Keep in mind that "facts" are not now entitled to copyright protection. Right now, it's OK to develop say an index of Web sites and include the address, a fact. But, that could change ... -nancy Nancy Mulvany nmulvany@well.com From: James Love love@tap.org Subject: Sports Statistics to Be Regulated Under WIPO Treaty (Part I) Info-Policy-Notes - A newsletter available from listproc@tap.org ----------------------------------------------------------------- INFORMATION POLICY NOTES NOVEMBER 10, 1996 Government Proposes New Regulation of Sports Statistics and other "facts" James Love Consumer Project on Technology http://www.essential.org/cpt love@tap.org; 202/387-8030* November 10, 1996 This issue of INFO-POLICY-NOTES was formatted in 12 point courier, with 1 inch margins. An HTML version of this note is available at http://www.essential.org/cpt/ip/wipo-sports.html INTRODUCTION Sports fans in the United States will be surprised to learn that U.S. Government officials are pressing for the adoption of an International treaty that will (if enacted) significantly change the ways sports statistics are controlled and disseminated. The treaty isn't specifically directed at sports statistics -- it is a much broader attempt to create a new property right in facts and other data now in the public domain - - but it will have an enormous impact on the legal rights exercised by the National Football League (NFL), Major League Baseball (MLB), the National Basketball Association (NBA), the National Hockey League (NHL) and virtually all other professional or amateur athletic leagues. [The same treaty will radically affect the way that stock prices, weather data, train schedules, data from AIDS research and other facts are controlled, but this note will focus on the issue of sports statistics, a topic that illustrates the broad impact of the treaty]. This comes at the same time the NBA and other sports franchises are stepping up their efforts to control the real time dissemination of sports statistics through the Internet or with wireless paging devices. [See, for example, http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,3208,00.html]. The treaty, however, addresses different and much more fundamental issues regarding ownership of information. If the treaty is approved and implemented, sports leagues will have far broader powers to dictate the terms and conditions under which sport statistics are reported and disseminated. Nolan Ryan's Earned Run Average (ERA), the number of tackles or quarterback sacks by Lawrence Taylor, Cal Ripken's career batting average, Bobby Hull's career assists, the number of steals by your favorite NBA point guard, and similar information will be "owned" by sports leagues. According to the proposed treaty (and legislation introduced in the 104th Congress to implement the treaty), the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB will have the right to prevent anyone from publishing these and other statistics without express permission from the sports league. This will include the right to control access to the historical archives of sports statistics, and even to dictate who can publish the box scores from a game or print a pitcher's ERA on the back of a baseball card. The proposals for a new legal environment for publishing facts are outlined in a draft treaty on "databases" that will be considered at a December 1996 meeting of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), in Geneva, Switzerland. [See www.public-domain.org/database/database.html] The proposal would require the United States and other countries to create a new property right for public domain materials. "Texts, sounds, images, numbers, facts, or data representing any other matter or substance," will be protected. [See the appendix for a more complete definition]. The treaty seeks, for the first time, to permit firms to "own" facts they gather, and to restrict and control the redissemination of those facts. The new property right would lie outside (and on top) of the copyright laws, and create an entirely new and untested form of regulation that would radically change the public's current rights to use and disseminate facts and statistics. American University Law Professor Peter Jaszi recently said the treaty represents "the end of the public domain." Copies of the proposed treaty, a federal register notice asking for public comment, and independent commentary can be found at: http://www.public-domain.org/database/database.html WHO IS PUSHING FOR THE DATABASE TREATY? In 1991, the US Supreme Court ruled (in the Feist decision) that the facts from a telephone "White Pages" directory of names, addresses and phone numbers were not protected under the copyright laws, and that in general, "facts" could not be copyrighted by anyone. The Feist decision alarmed several large database vendors, who crafted this new "sui generis" property right that would protect facts, and just about everything else. [The vendors have already succeeded in obtaining a directive on database proposal from the European Union, although no European country has yet passed legislation to implement the treaty]. The most active supporter of this new property right is West Publishing, the Canadian legal publisher. A West Publishing employee chairs a key ABA subcommittee which wrote a favorable report on the treaty. A number of very large British and Dutch database vendors are also lobbying hard for the treaty. West wants the new property right to protect the "page numbers" and "corrections" it adds to the judicial opinions it publishes in paper bound books. Telephone companies want to protect the names, addresses and telephone numbers they publish, and other database vendors what to protect scientific data or other non-copyrighted government information they publish. In seeking to protect these items, the treaty was written to stamp "owned by" labels on a vast sea of information now in the public domain. Copyright experts J.H. Reichman and Pamela Samuelson say it is the "least balanced and most potentially anti- competitive intellectual property rights ever created." [http://ksgwww.harvard.edu/iip/reisamda.html] There is an active debate within the Clinton Administration over the proposed treaty. Bruce Lehman, the controversial head of the Patent and Trademark Office (PTO) is pushing for adoption of the treaty this December. Most administration official don't have a clue what the database treaty does. Some people think it is a minor tinkering with the current copyright law. No one in the government has sought to understand the significance of the proposal in terms of the new rights to "own" facts, and until recently no one was aware that the treaty was so broad that it would change the way sports or financial statistics were controlled. HOW WILL THE TREATY WORK? In Feist, the Supreme Court noted: (a) Article I, Sec. 8, cl. 8, of the Constitution mandates originality as a prerequisite or copyright protection. The constitutional requirement necessitates independent creation plus a modicum of creativity. Since facts do not owe their origin to an act of authorship, they are not original and, thus, are not copyrightable. [From the Syllabus of the opinion, at http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/classics/499_340v.htm] Since facts cannot be copyrighted, the supporters of the treaty have framed this as a new "sui generis" property right, which will have a separate statutory framework. "Originality" or "authorship" will not be required. "Texts, sounds, images, numbers, facts, or data representing any other matter or substance," will be protected. The information can be stored in "all forms or media now known or later developed." Both published and confidential information will be covered. The only thing required is a "substantial investment in the collection, assembly, verification, organization or presentation of the contents" of the protected work. The "rightholder" will have extremely broad powers to "authorize or prohibit the extraction or utilization" of the information from the protected database. It takes a while for the implications of this new system to sink in. Some facts can be independently gathered, like the number of baseball games played in a year, the winners or losers of a tennis match, or the scores of a football game. For these data, there may exist several sources for the data. However, other facts are, by their very nature, only available from a single source, and will be controlled by monopolies. For example, baseball leagues employ scorekeepers who determine if a batter is credited with a hit or if a fielder committed an error, if a hit is reported as a single or double, or if an errant pitch is scored as a wild pitch or a passed ball. The league makes a "substantial investment" in the collection and maintenance of this data, which it disseminates to the press, and also stores and maintains in a database, through an arrangement with the Elias Sports Bureau. These data cannot be independently collected - and under the proposed database treaty, the league would own the facts themselves, and could dictate the terms under which these facts are published or redisseminated. The NFL employs four persons who keep track of the play-by- play action for each game. They write up four separate reports, which are used to create a single official "box score." The final product is supervised by the Elias Sports Bureau, as a "work for hire" product, which is owned by the NFL. The NFL box score is very detailed, and includes analysis of each play. It records the league's statistics for the number of yards gained (or lost) on each play, who is credited with a tackle or a quarterback sack, or the number return yards on a kickoff or pass interception, and many other items. While someone who attended a football game could make an independent estimate of these items, it would likely be different from the official statistics, due to the inherent difficulty in measuring or assigning credit for performance on the field. The NFL's box score is given to the press, which uses the data to create its own news media reports. An attorney who represents the National Football League (NFL) told us that the NFL has an interest in insuring that there is an "official" source of the statistics, which are gathered with an appropriate standard of care and that the NFL "protects the official designation" of its statistics. These data are used for making decisions on the Hall of Fame, and to create special reports and information products, which the NFL provides to third parties, often for a fee. Virtually all of the major league sports leagues have some system for creating statistics, disseminating the information to the press, storing the historical data, and marketing the statistics commercially. Major League Baseball and the NBA work with Elias, while the NBA and the NHL have their own in-house system. There is little doubt the process by which these statistics are generated will qualify for protection, under the treaty's minimal requirement that the league demonstrate it has made a "substantial investment in the collection, assembly, verification, organization or presentation of the contents" of database. The work-for-hire "media sheets," "box scores," and other press handouts which report the statistics would be considered database elements, and reporting of statistics from these products would be subject to an entirely new type of licensing and control by the leagues which is far stronger than that which exists under copyright law. [See appendix]. The leagues have various methods of selling their "official" branded statistics. There are also many competitors who build databases from a variety of sources, including the published box scores that appear in daily newspapers, and probably the books and reports published by the leagues. The leagues do not currently assert "ownership" in the statistics directly, even as they try to prevent others from referring to the data as "official" statistics, but they are trying to prevent real time reporting of game statistics and situations over Internet or paging technologies. The NBA told us that it permits accredited journalists to report scores from NBA games three times each quarter, and that it considers the minute to minute reports a "misappropriation" of its ability to sell performance rights for the event. The NFL takes a similar position with respect to its games. STATS, Inc. is a firm that provides real time scores and play-by-play descriptors to a variety of online and wireless information services. According to the NFL and the NBA, STATS, Inc. hires people to watch television broadcasts of the games, and type the play-by-play information into personal computers, which are linked to the STATS, Inc. computer network services. An example of this type of service that uses STATS, Inc. as a supplier of statistics is Instant Baseball, available at http://www.InstantSports.com/. Disputes over the real time Internet broadcasts of game situations and scores could well end up before the U.S. Supreme Court, as a test of the first amendment. In the NBA case involving Motorola, STATS, Inc. and America Online, the NFL and other leagues have filed amicus briefs in support of the NBA position, while the New York Times has filed a brief in support of Motorola, STATS, Inc. and America Online. About two weeks ago the NBA discovered HR 3531, a version of the database protection proposal that was introduced in the U.S. Congress last spring. The NBA is looking at HR 3531 to see if it would provide a legislative remedy for their dispute with Motorola, et. al. (Like the other leagues, the NBA wasn't aware of the database treaty until last week.) At present, none of the leagues currently prevent anyone from publishing statistics after a game is over, because it is assumed that the statistics (facts) are in the public domain, once the broadcasts are over. But this would likely change if the database treaty is enacted. One league official told me, "no matter how appalled I am at this proposal personally, as a civil libertarian, my client may have interests as a rightholder that it will want to exercise." A lawyer for the NFL said that the NFL might not want to do anything - he thought the free dissemination of statistics brought its own benefits, in terms of increased fan interest. But he also said, the treaty would allow the NFL to "do quite a bit of stuff," in terms of new licensing arrangements or other ventures, if it wanted to. As a "sui generis" property right, the database proposal does not incorporate the fair use principles from copyright that reporters and value added publishers often take for granted. The leagues would be able to require license to publish box scores or other statistics in any media. One can imagine a world where the leagues wouldn't require licensing of box scores to print based periodicals like daily newspapers, but that a much more controlled regimen would evolve on the Internet. The leagues could require licensing of box scores and other statistics for Internet publications, or linking to the leagues own web sites, such as www.nba.com, www.nba.com, or www.nhl.com. The Internet is, after all, a very easy place to locate and police violations of intellectual property rights -- through a simple AltaVista search. This would also likely lead to major changes in the market for baseball (and other sports) cards, which typically feature key statistics on the flip side of the card. The new database extract rights would prohibit any unauthorized extraction or reuse of data that had economic value to the leagues (See discussion in Appendix). WHAT CAN YOU DO? The government is taking comments on the database treaty through November 22, 1996. If you don't think the government should rush into a new regulatory scheme for sports statistics, let them know. You can email your comments to: diploconf@uspto.gov. If you want to know more about his proposal, check out http://www.public-domain.org/database/database.html. PS Of course, this treaty deals with a lot more than sports statistics. It will do the same thing for information on stock prices that is generated by a stock exchange. It will radically change the market for weather information. There is concern in Europe over the control over train schedules. Private Schools could use the new data extraction right to prevent unauthorized publication of data about its student's test scores or post graduate placement statistics (both generated from a database). The treaty would radically change the rights to use information from gene sequencing, or hospital cost benefit studies. It will obviously do much much more. Since I have tried to keep this note simple, a lot has been left out. But consider this. The treaty, which was designed to protect West Publishing's legal reporters, has been written so broadly that it will define even the daily newspaper as a "database" element. Since the new property right is additive to to all rights claimed under copyright, every publisher will claim the additional protection, by saying each issue of the newpaper is a database element. (virtually all newspapers today are archived in databases). The consequences of this are astounding, since every fact and article in every newspaper will have the new stronger form of protection, which will not include any public fair use rights. You might ask your member of Congress what the heck is going on with the treaty, and see if they understand it. James Love, Director Consumer Project on Technology 202/387-8030; love@tap.org * I will be out of the U.S. from November 11 to November 20, attending a conference on the impact of international trade agreements on intellectual property rights in New Delhi, India, and will be hard to reach before the 21st. Two law professors who have studied the treaty extensively are: Professor Pamela Samuelson, University of California at Berkeley, Voice (510)642-6775, pam@sims.berkeley.edu Professor Peter Jaszi, American University, School of Law, Voice (202) 885-2600, pjaszi@wcl.american.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:50:28 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: annem Subject: marketing I'm new to this group, and it may be premature to add to the discussion of how to get the word out to authors and publishers about the value of a professionally prepared index. Here goes anyway. Our company, a publisher, contracts an author to write a book and includes as part of the contract a statement that the author is responsible for the index. When the edited manuscript reaches the pages stage, our editors try to persuade the author to pay for a professional indexer. If the author agrees, the editor hires the indexer and the company pays as an advance on royalties. It would help us persuade authors to have a statement from a group of indexers who can explain the advantages of a professional index. The editor now usually tries to argue that indexing is complicated and time-consuming, and well worth the expense of having a professional indexer do the job. But I think the point about the content being so familiar that the author can't again wear the naive reader's shoes is a good additional argument. If you are presenting credentials to a publisher, I'd certainly include a statement of the specific advantages a professional indexer has to offer. Surely we aren't the only cajole authors into paying for something that will help their books. Anne M. Heiles annem@hkusa.com >I'd say that BECAUSE the author knows the book intimately, he or she is >probably NOT the best person to do the index. Why? Because an intimate >knowledge of the contents of the book is exactly what readers do not have! >Our job is to guide the reader to find what he or she is looking for, and we have developed the ability to read the work in queston as a reader, not an author. A person who already has an intimate knowledge of the book doesn't >think in terms of synonyms for entry terms, or "see also" references, or >whether or not his/her structure will be immediately apparent to readers. > >I think there is an excellent case to be made for professional indexers >specifically because they act as intelligent readers first and indexers second. Authors cannot usually shed the "author" persona and look at their book from the perspective of the reader searching for information. > > > =Sonsie=> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Speed Reading Course In a message dated 96-11-12 14:02:30 EST, Carol wrote: > I share Hazel's skepticism of infomercials, but I'm still insterested in > the issue of speed reading per se. I could see how it might be quite useful > for that first read through the book (before marking up or keying in > anything, when you would of course need to read very closely). If I could > shave a few hours off that task, it would be well worth $170 to me over the > course of a year. So I'd still like to hear from anyone here who's tried > it--and which course they took. Isn't the Evelyn Wood course still around? I too am interested in taking a speed reading course. When I was in high school, an English instructor gave us a mini-speed reading course which was enough to double my reading speed at the time. I mention this because I remember that it was stressed in the course that speed reading is *not* skimming or simply scanning material lightly and this is why I think it has a lot of potential value to us indexers. The speed increase was achieved by *increasing* the number of words taken in by a single eye movement, not by reducing the number of words read. Instead of reading one... word... at... a... time (and regressing to read the first word of the phrase again as many folks do), the reader is trained to read the entire phrase (and much longer phrases) as if it were written onewordatatime. If I remember correctly, the goal was to capture entire sentences in a normal text column width in one or two maximum eye movements. The amount of concentration required to read in this manner, instantly comprehending all that was read, without regressing to previous words/phrases is enormous! (Try this at home, folks, and you'll see what I mean about the level of concentration.) So, it was claimed that this technique actually increases comprehension and retention of what was read. When I consider that fact that graduates of speed reading courses are able to read and, importantly, comprehend average material at 2,000 to 3,000 words per minute and that an average book may contain 100,000 to 200,000 words, I find it extremely attractive. Why, in an hour or so, I could sit and actually read (not scan) an entire text that I am about to index, then start the indexing process with full awareness of the scope of the concepts treated in the text. Even the specialized "indexing" reading that we do should go a lot faster, simply by having reduced the time involved in eye motion mechanics. Also, the higher level of concentration involved in speed reading, even while doing "indexing reading", could only help in the intellectual process of creating index entries with those neurons already firing in a neuro-nova lightning storm. We're talkin' the ultimate indexing trance here. (This is coming close to my sci-fi fantasy of indexing with a computer-brain interface where the text scrolls by on part of the mindscreen and the indexer just thinks entries into the "index" part of the mindscreen. Now, I know I'm not the only one here who's had those holographic types of dreams, during heavy indexing crunches, where one just thinks at the world and indexes everything they see.) Yessssssss!! Now, surely someone has come up with a software program that teaches speed reading in the comfort of ones own home. So, if anyone knows of anything along these lines, please let me know about it. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:54:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: results: Letter heads in index Regarding a question I posted last week -- "What do you think about putting letter heads in your indexes?" -- I rather shamelessly took all of your opinions and put them together on a single web page. :-) The URL is http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth/let_heads.html I will vouch for each quote's accuracy, but I never thought to keep track of who said what. So I thank everyone for who answered for his or her opinion. Enjoy the motley selection of responses. For those who don't have Web access, for each person who prefers using letter heads in their indexes there is an indexer who prefers not to. A large number of people added, however, that they have no choice, that the publisher is the ultimate decision-maker on the matter. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:19:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: results: Letter heads in index In-Reply-To: <199611122054.PAA00844@polaris.net> Y'know, I'd *love* to work for a publisher who wanted me to put snazzy, wild, and crazy header letters in my indexes. Here I have all these neat fonts to work with, and it'd be fun to jazz up my indexes. Or maybe take out those calligraphy pens that've been sitting around for a loooong time and do some funky header letters on the hard copy. Somehow, I don't think this is gonna sell. ;)) Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:14:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Index by author or professional indexer I echo Anne Heile's comments about how contracts are set up. That's pretty much how we handle it at my company, too. I'm pro-professional indexer handling indexes. Authors occasionally do a good job, but usually not. They're tired of the book, they're too close to the book, and they're usually *experts* on the subject matter (which is why they've been hired) -- but in many cases, that's precisely the *opposite* of the ultimate readers (most of whom are definitely not experts). So here's a vote for you professionals out there from someone who works at a big, bad publisher! ;>) I'll go back to lurking now! Larry Baker larry_baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 18:52:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Lacey, Diane" Subject: (no subject) unsubscribe Diane W. Lacey dwlacey@nauticom.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 22:32:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: On marketing I agree with Jean Thompson's suggestion (recalled by Cynthia Bertelsen) that the _Chronicle of Higher Education_ would be an excellent venue for reaching a decent readership of scholarly authors. I can't see the Chronicle publishing a series of articles on indexing, but they usually publish prominently in each issue one well-written personal essay of interest to educators. Several people on this list could fashion the sort of essay about indexing which the Chronicle would gladly publish. In fact, in my opinion, several of you already have! Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pat McKenna Subject: French Indexing Practices Hello indexers, Could someone tell me if the practice of using f and ff is acceptable in French indexes and if the answer is yes, if f is indeed the letter used or does it translate into another letter? Looking forward to some help on this one. Pat Librarian & Information Consultant Box 76, Ottawa ON Canada K1N 8V1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 22:04:12 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Marketing Error! Proofreading alert! Cynthia points out that I wrote: >> If authors realize that many libraries buy books without indexes, and that >>the index may actually be used, they begin to look at it a little differently. And Cynthia said: >I have a question about this statement, in regard to the libraries. It was >my understanding that most libraries will NOT buy a reference book without >an index... Of course. What I was intending to write was that many libraries DO NOT buy books (nonfiction) without indexes. I omitted a very important couple of words. Good grief. Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 02:11:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: complaining to publisher Seth Maislin wrote: > I probably get a comment about >my indexes once every 20 indexes -- and I'm talking about comments from >readers, not editors or authors. (Authors provide constructive criticism >about once every 5 indexes, but it's because I specifically ask for it as >part of the indexing process.) Whoa! I'm impressed. I didn't know ANY readers ever let the indexer know how they felt. Or do you mean comments in reviews? Seth also said >I think that every letter you write to a publisher -- assuming you are >writing as a READER and not as someone looking to make a buck -- will >be taken seriously, even if they ultimately decide to do nothing about >it. A letter that says, "I'm an indexer, and your index sucks, so you >should hire me next time," I think, is asking for trouble. I absolutely agree, and would like to say again that I didn't plan to tell the publisher that I was an indexer at all -- rather a librarian who frequently used similar reference books (which is absolutely true). Thanks for the feedback, folks. I shall rewrite my letter so it doesn't have such a serious case of the snots. Any ideas on what title I should address it to? Would "Attn.: Managing Editor" get it to more or less the right desk? Helen HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:16:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: On marketing Victoria, you are right: I attributed Sonsie's remarks to you. Apologies to both. Coincidentally, I have just been asked to patch up an index prepared by an author for his own book, which the publishers (an old and very respected London firm) are dissatisfied with. It's a biography, and there is no entry for the subject himself. I don't know what else may be wrong with it, as I haven't received it yet.. The comment was, 'We have to allow authors to prepare the index if they want to, but this one won't do. We know you'd rather do a new index of your own than amend someone else's, but time is short and we see this at this stage as damage limitation.' I have to give them credit for trying to put things right, but what a pity they couldn't have employed a professional indexer in the first place. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:03:14 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Luc Dubois Organization: Syndetics Research Subject: How to subscribe? Pardon me for sending this message to the list itself. I got this reference from another message, and I have no idea where to subscribe. Would somebody please e-mail me directly with instructions how to subscribe to the list? Thanks a lot in advance, Luc -- Syndetics Research Herderstraat 1 3740 Bilzen - Belgium ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:58:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: results: Letter heads in index In a message dated 96-11-12 17:01:45 EST, Hazel wrote: > > Y'know, I'd *love* to work for a publisher who wanted me to put snazzy, > wild, and crazy header letters in my indexes. Here I have all these neat > fonts to work with, and it'd be fun to jazz up my indexes. Or maybe take > out those calligraphy pens that've been sitting around for a loooong time > and do some funky header letters on the hard copy. I think really medieval looking drop caps for the initial letter of the main heading beginning each letter group would be supercool! ;-D > > Somehow, I don't think this is gonna sell. ;)) Neither would this one. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:41:45 -0400 Reply-To: rachelr@tiac.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Organization: Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Subject: Re: results: Letter heads in index I think we should advocate using different typefaces for each alphabet section. an Antique font for the As, Baroque for the Bs, handwriter for the Hs, San Franscisco for the Ss etc. Much more fun for the reader . . . (duck and grin) Rachel (I need more coffee) Rice Wildefire@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 96-11-12 17:01:45 EST, Hazel wrote: > > > > > Y'know, I'd *love* to work for a publisher who wanted me to put snazzy, > > wild, and crazy header letters in my indexes. Here I have all these neat > > fonts to work with, and it'd be fun to jazz up my indexes. Or maybe take > > out those calligraphy pens that've been sitting around for a loooong time > > and do some funky header letters on the hard copy. > > I think really medieval looking drop caps for the initial letter of the main > heading beginning each letter group would be supercool! ;-D > > > > Somehow, I don't think this is gonna sell. ;)) > > Neither would this one. ;-D > > Lynn Moncrief > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:05:26 -0400 Reply-To: david@southquest.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Egan Organization: SouthQuest S.A. Subject: a little help This is my first time writing to the group, and if you all don't mind, I would like to ask a bit of advice. The company where I work here in Buenos Aires, Argentina is creating electronic databases with the full-text of local newspapers and magazines. We would like to index the information to make retrieval easier and more consistent. Does anyone know where may we find appropriate materials about constructing indexes and keywording for online databases? We have been looking at some of the databases produced by the Information Access Company and others, and we noticed that they often have keywords, such as event code, based on the Predicasts Coding System. Is this a good system? And if so, where could we get a copy of that system? Also, we are going to be looking to hire indexers to help us. Where should we look for people that would be interested in working on such a project? We really appreciate any ideas and help that you all can give us. Cheers, David Egan SouthQuest Buenos Aires, Argentina ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:00:00 GMT0 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: Re: WordPerfect hyphens to endashes? > I think I may've missed some postings on this topic, so please please > let > me know if I have. The publishers I work for have never asked me to > substitute en-dashes for hyphens in indexes. I just use hyphens for page > ranges. Do lots of you get this request? > > Hazel > > Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) > Sign that your cat has learned your Internet password: > Your Web browser has a new home page: http://www.feline.com/ I have been asked on one occasion to provide double hyphens '--'. _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:36:08 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Marketing At 10:04 PM 11/12/96 -0800, Victoria Baker wrote: >Of course. What I was intending to write was that many libraries DO NOT >buy books (nonfiction) without indexes. I omitted a very important couple >of words. Victoria, this has been the source of several smaller jobs for me...local authors who discovered that libraries will not buy their n.f. books without indexes, and they had no idea of how to proceed. I've generally charged these people much less than the going rate, because for the most part they are literally self-publishing and the subject or the book is really good and important. Sort of a public service, you might say. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 21:46:00 GMT0 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: Re: marketing > It would help us persuade authors to have a statement from a > group of indexers who can explain the advantages of a > professional index. The editor now usually tries to argue that > indexing is complicated and time-consuming, and well worth the > expense of having a professional indexer do the job. But I think > the point about the content being so familiar that the author > can't again wear the naive reader's shoes is a good additional > argument. This last argument has force, but putting it to an author might be rather tactless, as being a reflection on his/her capacity to make judgements! _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:01:58 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: marketing > It would help us persuade authors to have a statement from a > group of indexers who can explain the advantages of a > professional index. I believe that ASI (American Society of Indexers) can provide brochures about the advantages of using professional indexers. You can reach ASI at asi@well.com. Nan Badgett dba Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 23:50:23 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Luc Dubois Organization: Syndetics Research Subject: Thanks (Re: How to subscribe?) In-Reply-To: <199611131203159143969@pool011-113.innet.be> I asked this afternoon: > Pardon me for sending this message to the list itself. I got this > reference from another message, and I have no idea where to subscribe. > Would somebody please e-mail me directly with instructions how to > subscribe to the list? Thanks to Maude and Renald for giving me the necessary instructions and listserver address. I'm now fully subscribed. Luc -- Syndetics Research Herderstraat 1 3740 Bilzen - Belgium ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:04:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Marketing >At 09:46 PM 11/13/96 GMT0, John Sampson wrote: > >>This last argument has force, but putting it to an author might be rather >>tactless, as being a reflection on his/her capacity to make judgements! > >John, I don't see why this (the argument that the author is too close to the >book to be able to see it clearly in indexing terms) would be considered >tactless, or a reflection on his/her ability to make judgments. > >I've had occasion to teach beginners about computer use, and I =was= a >beginner myself once. In that capacity, I've had to use indexes to >computer manuals that were almost completely useless TO A BEGINNER, because >the language didn't reflect how a person unused to the technical terminology >thinks about doing things on a computer. (This doesn't mean I advocate >reducing a technical index to a list of common words, but the use of "see" >references, liberally sprinkled throughout, would help enormously.) > >The same can be said of many different kinds of teaching tools, manuals, and >textbooks. The people reading the book are not experts; in fact, they may >have almost no knowledge of the subject before they've read the book. Most >authors who are experts would have trouble putting themselves into their >students' brains and remembering what it was like to NOT know their subject. >Indexing is a specialized skill, much like teaching. It's no reflection on >Babe Ruth, for example, to say he was a lousy coach/teacher--he was a >fabulous ballplayer! And it's no reflection on John Doe to say that he wrote >a fabulous teaching text on paleontology but could probably not produce a >really top-notch index to it. He's not an indexer! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:40:58 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: indexing biographies Christine Shuttleworth writes (inter alia): "It's a biography, and there is no entry for the subject himself." I know of many well-indexed works of biography or autobiography in which there is no index entry for the subject. The relevant information is given under the names of people, places, etc., associated with the subject. The index you mention may well be unsatisfactory on other grounds, or else it may be the sort of biography which needs an entry for the main character. But I don't believe you can say, a priori, that all biographical indexes must have an entry for the subject. From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 05:59:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wlively@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexing biographies Please change my address from Wlively@aol.com to LivelyB@aol.com Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:38:34 +0000 Reply-To: mshams@ciesin.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie-Lise Shams Subject: [Fwd: RESOUR> WIN95 Help!] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1EEA3906A31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Win95 tips and even a tutorial book to download. -- Marie-Lise <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Marie-Lise Shams Information Specialist Consortium for International Earth Science Information Network (CIESIN) 2250 Pierce Road University Center Michigan 48710 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Phone: +1-517-797-2790 Fax: +1-517-797-2622 E-mail: mshams@ciesin.org URL http://www.ciesin.org/ <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> --------------1EEA3906A31 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Path: news.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.c om!news.dra.com!newsfeeder.gi.net!news.mid.net!news.mid.net!not-for-mail From: Gleason Sackman Newsgroups: comp.internet.net-happenings Subject: RESOUR> WIN95 Help! Date: 14 Nov 1996 08:44:18 -0600 Organization: Global Internet, Peace of Mind is finally Online! Lines: 20 Sender: infoserv@news.mid.net Approved: ralphie Message-ID: <56fb82$ko0@shocker.gi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shocker.gi.net Received: from plains.nodak.edu *** From Net-Happenings Moderator *** From: Daniel Fiverson <71154.1773@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:58:34 -0700 There is a new website that offers free tips and tricks for Windows 95, as well as a downloadable book that contains comprehensive help and tutoring: It contains easy to follow step-by-step instructions for all Windows 95 commands. There are even free sample pages online. It is called Beginner's Step Guide and you can find it at: http://winstep.com Bookmark the site. There will be frequent updates! --------------1EEA3906A31-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 11:42:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marlene Power Subject: indexing questions Please reply directly to Professor van der Meer: jmvdm@redeemer.on.ca ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:12:23 -0500 (EST) From: Jitse van der Meer 1. Is there an average indexing time per record one could use for planning and budgetting purposes. If possible I would like different indexing times for journal articles and books. 2. The Pascal Centre for Advanced Studies in Faith and Science is planning to make available on the internet its bibliographic database of 30,000 records. Currently, access is via author and title. We would like to improve access by indexing the records. Which one of the following three options is recommended? Option 1: Make database available after indexing has been completed. This would take from 5 to 6 years for one full-time indexer. Option 2: Make database available without indexing, but add searchable abstracts. The problem: since religion and science is a new field titles and abstracts often do not have search terms that refer to religion and science while the record may be relevant to it. This would substantially reduce the quality of access. Option 3: Index the database while it is being used. Indicate to users which part has been indexed. For instance, author names A-D. The concern here is how this would affect user frequency. User frequency will function as an evaluation criterion for grant support for this project, and that is why ideally the database should be fully indexed when made available. I would very much appreciate expert advise so i can make the correct decisions in planning this project. Thank you in advance for your trouble. Dr. Jitse M. van der Meer jmvdm@redeemer.on.ca Professor of Biology (905)648-2131 Director Pascal Centre fax: (905)648-2134 Redeemer College 777 Hwy 53 East Ancaster, ON. Canada L9K 1J4 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:02:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Murphy, Avon" Subject: Automatic Indexing and Peace of Mind I don't mean to restart the thread on the questionable virtues of automatic indexing, but here's one more instance of absolute faith in the power of software. From the November/December issue of _Infobase News_: "Peace of Mind--An index in a paper book may miss a crucial reference, but a search through an infobase returns *all* instances of the requested search string." Avon Murphy Home 360-456-3411 amurphy@wln.com Work 360-786-7952 murphy_av@leg.wa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:09:12 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: On marketing >Speaking to this concern, that of publishers who depend on the authors to do >their own indexes, I'll say that I run into that regularly. You have to >keep looking for other publishers, is the problem, because it's a policy >thing. What Victoria says here is all too true. But I wanted to share with you a serendipitous "workaround" I managed (fell into is more like it) with one particular publisher. When I was still fairly new, an author I knew hired me to index his book, without telling me that that was strictly verboten with his publisher. Their policy was that authors *must* index their own books, can you believe? This author has been around enough to know that it's sometimes better to apologize later than to ask permission. In any case, I cheerfully indexed the book, he submitted it (with my name), and the press was happy. I've since done a few more indexes for the same press, and they've softened their policy against professional indexers. I swear, I'm not making this up! What a hoot, as they say in these parts. And Christine said: >but what a pity they couldn't >have employed a professional indexer in the first place. I've been in that situation, too, and have asked why they can't do that in the first place. At this particular press, the reason is that it's two different editors working--what's the opposite of "in tandem"?--at different ends of the production process. It's the acquisitions editor who tells the author to write the index and the production editor who must deal with the results. At least at this press. Why can't they simply change their policy? What a shocking idea! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:09:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: complaining to publisher Seth said >I think that every letter you write to a publisher -- assuming you are >writing as a READER and not as someone looking to make a buck -- will >be taken seriously, even if they ultimately decide to do nothing about >it. A letter that says, "I'm an indexer, and your index sucks, so you >should hire me next time," I think, is asking for trouble. I'd been wondering for a long time whether and how to do this. I have an otherwise excellent computer manual that has a real stinker of an author-written index. (I'll let you guess which one. Hints: very popular, very Mac.) I could never quite bring myself to write to the publisher about it. So I waited. Then along came a software product that was wonderful except for the absence of an index in the user manual. I figured, what the hell. So yesterday I wrote the publisher a glowing letter about the product, with lots of detail about what I liked. At the end, it included a suggestion for improving the product--adding the index. I gave several examples intended to show why a search engine is not an adequate replacement for an index (whether printed or electronic). And yes, I unabashedly invited the publisher to contact me if she or he needed further information about my indexing services. And yes, it's self-serving. Fortunately, it's also other-serving, so my conscience is clear. (I realize Seth is talking about a situation in which you bash the product rather than praise it.) Whether my letter will be taken seriously remains to be seen. I live in the hope that this is a rational world. ;-) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:41:28 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: marketing An article about the deficiencies of author indexes and the benefits of professionally prepared indexes appearing in the Chronicle would be, IMHO, preaching to the choir. (Please don't be offended by the pseudo-religious reference.) :-} The authors who _know_ they prepare wonderful indexes for their own books would assume the article is meant for someone else. I think it would be wonderful publicity for the profession but I'm not sure how many converts (oops, waxing theological again!) we'd get. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:50:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: marketing As someone who has been indexing for academic publishers and authors for 14 years, I can testify that many authors are not aware that there *are* professional indexers who would be happy to prepare their indexes for them. Using the _Chronicle of Higher Education_ to inform them of our availability as well as of our expertise would be a very worthwhile project I think. --Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:25:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: marketing In-Reply-To: <199611142152.QAA16032@polaris.net> On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: > As someone who has been indexing for academic publishers and authors for 14 > years, I can testify that many authors are not aware that there *are* > professional indexers who would be happy to prepare their indexes for them. I've had the same experience as Laura. Just yesterday, an author said, "Gee, I had no idea that there were professional indexers out there. And I had no idea how to find them." (A friend of the author referred the author to me.) I know that ASI has done a terrific job of letting the publishing world know that we _are_ out there. Maybe we do need to get the word out in publications that a lot of authors and people who work at presses tend to read. For those publishers who're on Index-L: Would you have any suggestions about which publications would be best for us to "hit up," as it were? The _Chronicle_ has been mentioned. _Publishers' Weekly_? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. (I've seen an ASI advertisement in the _NY Times Book Review_. Great place for an ad!) Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats to pull a sled through snow."--Jeff Valdez ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:41:24 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: hyphens and en dashes At 01:42 AM 11/12/96 -0500, Lynn wrote: >Hazel, > >There are only two instances in which I've been asked to use en dashes. One >is for page ranges where the locators are in chapter-number-page number >format as in some software manuals. For example, the range 7-2 to 7-3 is >given as 7-27-3. This is far easier to read (with a real en dash, of >course) than 7-2-7-3. The other situation is where you have certain phrases >ontaining hyphenated compound words (which I can never remember the rule for >and can't find the reference for in Chicago). In this second instance, I >follow the usage in the text to stay on the safe side. ;-D Lynn: The passage you couldn't find in _Chicago_ is 5.117. Unfortunately it's not indexed under "compound words" as one might think but under "compound adjectives" a few lines up. This raises once again the question of whether we should index such narrow topics at the main heading level, the subheading level, or both. I was taught to do both as a matter of course and I that's what I usually do unless space limitations prevent it. (This particular case is more complicated in that the correct inclusive term used in the text, "compounds", is not included in the index.) The passage indicates that en dashes should be used instead of hyphens in compound adjectives when one of the elements is an open compound or when both elements are hypenated compounds. Examples given (using double hyphens instead of hyphens for en dashes) include "New York--London" flight" and "quasi-public--quasi-judicial body". Another good example using a double hyphen instead of a hyphen for an en dash would be the term you used above, "chapter-number--page-number format". I would like to see a passage in some grammar or style manual on the use of en dashes or em dashes in compound adjectives in which none of the elements is an open or a hyphenated compound, as in "predator--prey relationships". Anybody know of such a passage? Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:21:29 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: marketing Just a note: ASI has had an ad in Publishers Weekly for years. It is a small ad in the classified section, and we swap ad space to cover the costs (they put stuff in KeyWords in exchange). Thanks to Anne Leach for keepign this going! Anyone else who knows of a publication interested in exchanging ad space, I'm all ears. Send the info to me directly, rather than to the list, and I will follow up as much as time allows. What we need to remember when discussing publicity efforts of ASi is: we are a 99.99% volunteer organization, and we will never be able to provide the kind of publicity that an organization with an publicity staff can provide. Plus, we would have to raise our dues to cover such expenses. Publicity is an expensive and time-consuming thing. What I encourage each member of ASI (and other indexers) to do is SPEAK OUT at every available opportuntiy, hand out your own cards and ASI's brochures (contact me to get some), and combine efforts with other indexers to pay for ad space. Any history and archaeology indexers are encouraged to join the Hisoty/Archaeology SIG (special interest group) of ASI--we are putting together a directory to send to history and archaeology publishers. The SIG is asking $10 to cover expenses of the SIG itself, and I think we set a price for inclusion in the directory ($40? can't recall exactly). Anyway, contact Margie Towery to join our SIG and help us help ourselves. (Margie can be reached at mtowery@aol.com) Speech over! Barbara ASI Publicity Coordinator (hey, it's a volunteer position for a full-time job!) -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 19:52:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Chicago and AMA Style Books: News from A (fwd) Thought you folks might be interested in this style manual information, which comes from a subscriber to Copyediting-L. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats to pull a sled through snow."--Jeff Valdez ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:58:00 -0600 Subject: Chicago and AMA Style Books: News from A Some of our favorite style books were the topic of a plenary session at this year's American Medical Writer's Association conference. Margaret Mahan, Managing Editor University of Chicago Press _The Chicago Manual of Style_ Chicago 15 will appear sometime after 2001. It will definitely appear in cloth, almost certainly in an on-line version, and may have a CD version as well. The pilot for the on-line version might appear as early as 1998. They "try to follow rather than spearhead style," according to Ms. Mahan; changes for Chicago 15 include: cutting it; they will omit the multiple suggestions and give simply their preferred way (notes Ms. Mahan, "we break the rules all the time at Chicago"). focus on publishing instead of bookmaking; address editors and publishers (historically, Chicago has addressed book writers) assume authors are working with a computer, not a typewriter (but include typewriter versions of instructions where necessary) focus less on paper and pencil ("p&p") editing and add discussions of on-line editing and redlining change the proofreading guidelines a total revamp of the mathematics chapter, currently antiquated information on citing electronic sources (she recommends _Electronic Style: A Guide to Citing Electronic Information_, by Li Crane, Metromedia. EEI home page has samples on line) The on-line version will be kept in lockstep with the cloth edition once the cloth is published. They welcome our input--Ms. Mahan keeps a file of letters from users. The revision to the math chapter is because someone wrote them suggesting they might have a mathematician review it. Cheryl Iverson, Director Division of Editorial Processing Scientific Publications American Medical Association AMA 9: American Medical Association _Manual of Style_ AMA 9 went to the copyeditor this Monday; the goal is to get it to the publisher (by which I think she meant "printer") by the end of the year and to have it in print by late 1997. Changes: a new section on copyright in an electronic environment information on how to cite electronic documents how to handle electronic processing of documents and on-line editing a greatly expanded statistics section a chapter on typography change in policy re: numbers: use numerals for all numbers except "first", "second", etc. and except for the word "one" when not used as a literal quantity: "One of the most . . ." eponyms: drop the possessive AMA 9 will appear in cloth. Other plans include: 1. A home page: marketing information, corrections, a FAQ with quarterly or monthly additions, a what's new section covering new issues since publication, links to the CBE, etc. 2. CD-ROM, with hypertext links, fully searchable. Possibly designed so that you can download it and customize it to your particular group. 3. On-line version, with more examples, particularly with references and usage She's envisioning a time when all the style guides will be on the Web with hyperlinks to the relevant sections in each other's works, but she knows that will require "lots of negotiation". She also mentioned a program, originally called "Magic Redaction" and now renamed, which imposes some aspects of house style on material _as it is scanned._ Further details in _CBE Views_, Vol. 19, No. 4. Is this kind of information helpful? Karyn Popham nugget from AMWA: "slipped disc syndrome": when the hard-copy and diskette version no longer match. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:00:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny McLaughlin Subject: Marketing I too have spent quite a bit of time thinking about how to educate authors to our services. One publication that I think would be a good vehicle is It's widely distributed among academics and has a section called Inside Publishing, which might be the best place to put in a short article. They also accept display advertising. Bonny McLaughlin mclaughb@cgs.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:07:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: hyphens and en dashes >en dashes or em dashes in compound adjectives in which none of the elements >is an open or a hyphenated compound, as in "predator--prey relationships". >Anybody know of such a passage? > I don't know of one, but my friend Susanna J. Sturgis who is an editor and who said to give you all her full name, and spell it correctly or she'll come after me and her email in case you want to talk copyediting trivia with her (s.sturgis2@genie.com) that one would do this (where * is an en dash and # is a hyphen): open compounds (using the main throughway on Martha's Vineyard for an example) thus take the Edgartown*Vineyard Haven Road or even the West Tisbury*Vineyard Haven Road (which doesn't really exist but you get the picture) but in non#English#speaking countries or when en dash means "through" such as school year 1995*96, or you could use a slash 1995/96 no other common use, besides between numbers such as page ranges. Hope this clarifies. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:45:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: marketing In-Reply-To: <199611150157.RAA25011@mx5.u.washington.edu> Perhaps ASI could consider running the ad from Publisher's Weekly in the Chronicle as well. There's a "Services" heading in the classifieds that seems quite appropriate. (Have considered it myself on occasion...) Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu CGWeaver@aol.com On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: > On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: > > > As someone who has been indexing for academic publishers and authors for 14 > > years, I can testify that many authors are not aware that there *are* > > professional indexers who would be happy to prepare their indexes for them. > > I've had the same experience as Laura. Just yesterday, an author said, > "Gee, I had no idea that there were professional indexers out there. And I > had no idea how to find them." (A friend of the author referred the author > to me.) > > I know that ASI has done a terrific job of letting the publishing world > know that we _are_ out there. Maybe we do need to get the word out in > publications that a lot of authors and people who work at presses tend to > read. > > For those publishers who're on Index-L: Would you have any suggestions > about which publications would be best for us to "hit up," as it were? The > _Chronicle_ has been mentioned. _Publishers' Weekly_? Any suggestions > would be greatly appreciated. (I've seen an ASI advertisement in the _NY > Times Book Review_. Great place for an ad!) > > Hazel > > Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) > "Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats > to pull a sled through snow."--Jeff Valdez >