From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 29-JUN-1996 06:32:18.83 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606B" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 06:11:34 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:41:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pega Hrnjak Subject: Unsubscribe! Please delete this address from the subscriber's list. Thank You. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:03:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RisinMJ@AOL.COM Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Please delete my address from the Index-L mailing list ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 13:05:07 +0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Web pages and indexers I am interested in finding out how many indexers have personal Web pages. Although I have done a large number of searches on the usual search engines on the Web (Lycos, Magellan, Excite, Alta Vista, Infoseek, and so on), I have not found that many indexer pages by using the usual search terms. So, if possible, I would like to see a listing of Web page addresses of indexers. These pages could both be professional (i.e., commercial advertising sites) and personal. For those interested, please send me your page URLs and I will post all of the results ASAP for the benefit of the entire list. ******************************************************************************* Cynthia D. Bertelsen | "When I get a little money, I buy books; Indexer | if there is any left, I buy food and Blacksburg, VA | clothes." -- Erasmus -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 15:28:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prindex@AOL.COM Subject: Midwest ASI Meeting Indexers and potential indexers are invited to a meeting on June 29th to discuss the possibility of forming an ASI chapter in the Kansas, Oklahoma, western Missouri and Nebraska area. The meeting will be held at my home in Wichita, Kansas at 12 noon. We will have lunch, discuss the Denver conference and plan for the future. Those who are interested can go on to Borders bookstore. Please e-mail me for my address and directions or if you have any questions. Judy Press Press Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:10:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Infojo6363@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NFAIS If someone happened to save the recent posting from NFAIS re: the membership directory could they be so kind as to forward it to me? TIA Jodi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 08:52:52 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Harvey Kaniel Subject: Index in ASCII? Greetings Indexers: I am an occasional reader of the Indexer's list, and enjoy the exchange of information on this vital part of bookmaking. I am a technical writer, who occasionally has to do an index 'unprofessionally' using (get ready for this!) Word's indexing feature. So indexing is not currently my concentration or profession, but an adjunct to manual writing. Here's my question. I am editing a book using Word 6 that has to be submitted in ASCII format. The client wants me to add an index using Word. The problem here is of course forget it in ASCII. (I know, indexing pros will say: 'forget it in Word . . .' :=O) Can anyone suggest a solution to this problem other than buying MACREX or CINDEX (which is not an acceptable solution for this book)? If this is an absurdly naive or stupid question ("there's no solution!!!") please forgive my wasting your time and bandwidth. Please respond offline as time is of the essence. TIA for any assistance you can provide. Harvey Kaniel hkan@netvision.net.il ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:40:43 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: invoicing questions At 15:00 4/06/96 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: >I must admit I'm a little puzzled by the arrangement you have with this >publisher. I assume you're working with a page proof stage of the book, >right? And isn't it laid out in some page layout program--either PageMaker >or Quark Express? How are you able to print it out at all? Do you have one >or both of those programs? I'm curious, because that would be a real >stumbling block for me if a publisher wanted me to work that way. Without >spending hundreds of dollars for, say, PageMaker, I wouldn't be able to >print out a copy of the book to work on. I think. If the publisher used a 'print-to-file' option then it would produce a (very large) output file which could in theory be printed by being 'copied' to the printer: e.g. with the DOS command: COPY FILENAME.PRN LPT1: or with drag-and-drop in Windows. The publisher would have to be aware of the type of printer the indexer is using and set up their print-to-file arrangements for that particular printer. I say 'in theory' because although I've tried this several times, it's never worked terribly well, probably because the print files can be huge (10 Mb plus). Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:21:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: pricing questions Good morning everyone! I have a pricing question to present to you. (I'm exhausted, so this formality is an attempt to be certain I ask the right question.) I have been asked to come up with a quote for a 500 page double-spaced manuscript. Normally I give quotes after being given the final page count estimate. Any suggestions. ( I usually charge per indexable page of proof.) Thanks much. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:55:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: pricing questions In-Reply-To: <199606101622.JAA28264@spork.callamer.com> Leslie, I think the average "drop-off" in pages is from 1/3 to 1/2 from ms. to pages, depending on the size of the typeface and the book page. I'd be very generous and give them a top estimate, just in case they cram everything into double-column pages in 8-point type. So if you charge $3 a page, and the 500 pages collapses down to 250-350, I'd bid on the upper figure and tell them (a) that if there are fewer pages you will reduce the final price and (b) if the pages are unusual (i.e., double columns, small typeface, etc.) that your original bid will stand. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:51:54 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: pricing questions There are generally (very generally, depending on typeface, leading, and such things) 4 pages of manuscript to one page of typescript. This may help you determine how many book pages to estimate. -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TRIP10@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NFAIS Attention all Information Industry professionals and professionals looking to break into the industry . . . The National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services has a valuable resource for you . . . the 1996 NFAIS Member Directory of Leading Information Producers, Providers, Consultants & Vendors All the key contacts - CEO's, Presidents, Vice Presidents, Directors, and other Head Management, including Personnel contacts . . . The directory covers . . . Leading online services: DIALOG, DataStar, Questel*Orbit and STN International Prominent CD-ROM vendors: SilverPlatter, Ovid And of course the biggest database producers: Chemical Abstracts, BIOSIS, National Library of Medicine, Elsevier Science, Information Access Company, H. W. Wilson, Ei, INSPEC, ISI, UMI, etc., etc., etc. All the key phone and fax numbers for the contacts you want to make . . . INTERNET ADDRESSES! for most! +++ Descriptions of the products & services... This is a vital resources for: Marketing Staff . . . (You might even use it for competitive intelligence! Who's doing what in print, online, and on the Internet?) Administrators . . . (How many times have you heard, "Find me the number of . . ." "Can you verify the address for . . ") Libarians, Information Searchers, Internet Surfers . . . (This is a master catalog to the offerings of "real information" suppliers.) Researchers . . . (Why waste your time? Here's a concise overview of top quality information providers.) Job Seekers . . . (Get your resume in the right hands. Do your homework before the interview!) It's a "Who's Who" of the Database Publishing Industry . . . *** FACTS AT YOUR FINGERTIPS!!! *** This must-have "rolodex in a binder" from NFAIS will be available hot-off-the-press this month! Whether you're in the industry, or trying to get your foot in the door, you will find this publication worth its weight in gold! Don't delay in ordering your copy. Supplies of the **Directory** are limited. Let us reserve your copy now! The price of this all-important 150+-page publication is only $35! To order this vital handbook and guide, simply e-mail NFAIS at CHUDIE@AOL.COM; fax your order to NFAIS at 215-893-1564; or call NFAIS at 215-893-1561 and talk to Margaret Manson. We take VISA, Mastercard, American Express, or checks in U.S. Dollars. Postage and handling is included. The National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services is a not-for-profit, scientific and educational institution headquarted at 1518 Walnut St., Suite 307, Philadelphia, PA 19102. We have been representing leading database producers and information services since 1958. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:17:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: charges ASI cannot and should not publish a list of "recommended" or "suggested" charges. That lies in the path of restraint of trade charges. It certainly can do surveys of what members currently charge, and a committee has been formed to look into that. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 16:39:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown <104571.560@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: England/Britain In a book I am currently indexing, the author refers to "Britain" on several occasions. When I look up "Britain" in my dictionary, it refers me to "Great Britain," which is both the island, and (since 1707) the name used to refer collectively to England, Scotland, and Wales. Leaving the term "United Kingdom" out of the discussion, what does anyone else do in this situation? For instance: Britain complicity of, 00 emissaries from, 00 England. See Britain Great Britain. See Britain Or should the main entry be under England? Suggestions gratefully accepted. Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:41:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara J. Stroup" Subject: Re: England/Britain Dear Craig - In answer to your query about the use of "England, Britain, and Great Britain," the Irish in me jumps to answer that you should use "England" whenever possible! The Editor in me asks what era are we talking about, and the Indexer in me suggests copious cross references so as not to offend the Welsh, Irish and Scottish (did I leave anyone out?) Schizophrenically yours, Barbara Stroup Barbara Stroup Freelance Indexer "Books are our friends." Pooh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:08:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret Tong Subject: Re: England/Britain In-Reply-To: <199606111431.HAA25348@mail6> Can't help a wee comment....... the Scottish people are "the Scots". Scottish describes THINGS from Scotland..... We drink Scotch. remember "Mary, Queen of Scots"! A Scot, Margaret :-) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:29:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Query about captions I index many art books which contain illustrations, which are described by captions. The captions and the illustrations are not necessarily on the same page. For example, the caption could be on a facing page; or it may refer to a following page. Also, illustrations are not necessarily confined to a single page - they may occupy two facing pages. Example: _________________ Leonardo. | image of | Mona Lisa | the painting | |_______________| p. 2 p. 3 How should the index read? Mona Lisa, 2 or Mona Lisa, 3 ? There are arguments on both sides, which I can go into later if a discussion gets going about this. A practical argument for indexing to the caption location (p. 2) is that in the stage that I see a text, the image may be missing and its placement difficult to determine. Also, an indexer of renown told me "always index to the caption". On the other hand, most editors, if asked, would say they prefer to index to the location of the image. Consider also that the caption can contain substantive information, such as biographical facts about the artist. I think that there is no debate that these facts would be indexed as: Leonardo: facts about, 2 or perhaps Leonardo: facts about, 2 (caption) I am looking forward to your theoretical and practical arguments - it is tiresome to renew this question with every new indexing project. Peter Rooney MAGNETIX@IX.NETCOM.COM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:34:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Query about captions Peter, I too am interested to see the answers that will be posted on this question. The same situation often arises with medical books that are densely illustrated. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:17:44 -0400 Reply-To: t.craven@uwo.ca Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was craven@JULIAN.UWO.CA From: Tim Craven Subject: HTML converter for indexes, thesauri, etc I thought the following upload announcement might be of interest to some of the subscribers of INDEX-L: I have uploaded to Simtel.Net: http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/html/xrefht00.zip ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/html/xrefht00.zip 46098 bytes xrefht00.zip HTML converter for indexes, thesauri, etc XRefHTMW is a Microsoft Windows utility program for HTML files. It allows for automatic anchor extraction, anchor and link insertion, and insertion of certain other HTML codes in text files. It is aimed especially at applications involving index and thesaurus display. It translates to HTML sorted lists of extracted anchors, index display files created by printed index packages such as CINDEX, indented hierarchical displays, and thesaurus files. The user may view the latest HTML file in Netscape or another compatible viewer by clicking on a single button. No initial installation is required. The default HTML viewer setup may be modified by clicking on the "Setup" button. Freeware. Uploaded by the author. -- | Tim Craven, GSLIS, Elborn Coll., | t.craven@uwo.ca | | Univ. of Western Ontario, | (519)-679-2111 ext. 8497 | | London, Ont. N6G 1H1 CANADA | fax (519)-661-3506 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:20:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: About captions In my indexing projects, I have taken to using an "i" after a locator to indicate an illustration. Accordingly, I would use the following entries to Peter Rooney's situation (caption on pg. 2, illustration on pg. 3) Leonardo facts about, 2 Mona Lisa, 3i To me, that clearly indicates that there is information in two places, and that the information is of a different kind, i.e., text in one place and an illustration at another. (Of course I would also use "Mona Lisa [Leonardo]" as a main heading, with the locator "3i." Of course, this system only works when the placement of the illustrations is already know. And that's my humble opinion. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 12:02:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Buchanan Subject: Re: pricing questions ...I have been >asked to come up with a quote for a 500 page double-spaced manuscript. >Normally I give quotes after being given the final page count estimate. Any >suggestions. ( I usually charge per indexable page of proof.) I found out the hard way that the final number of pages is usually more than one would think. I got slightly burned on estimating a double-spaced manuscript: I counted words per page, words per page of a comparable book that was single spaced, etc.,etc. I under-estimated! Later, there was a discussion on this listserv on this topic. A project editor at a university press said that in her experience the final number of single-spaced pages will be 65-70 percent of the double-spaced pages. I looked back at the under-estimated project of mine and she was right on: it was 69%!!! However, the estimate will depend on font, point size, margins, page size... Give yourself room to manoeuvre by putting in a range of pages with a proviso that, if the number of pages exceeds the estimate, an adjustment will be made to the amount billed. Hope this helps. Patricia Buchanan pbfl@hookup.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:28:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Query about captions In-Reply-To: <199606120438.VAA01333@spork.callamer.com> Peter, several years ago I indexed one of "the" textbooks for art history, Gardner's _Art Through the Ages_. They wanted a very detailed and substantive index, and I faced the same problem you bring up. Sometimes the art itself took up a whole spread, with the caption on another page, and sometimes the caption and art were together on the same page. This ties in a little bit with our earlier discussion about headnotes, since the way I handled it involved the use of italics and boldface. The title of each artwork was italicized, and the page number for the photo of that artwork was also italicized. Artists' names were in boldface type, and general references were in Roman. Additionally, under artists' names, their works were listed alphabetically (again in italic, with italic page references). So no matter where you looked, you could find a specific artwork's photo listed. I indexed by the caption when both the art and the caption fell on the same page. When the art was, for example, a two-page spread with the caption on another page, the spread got an italic page reference and the caption got a roman page reference...but BOTH were indexed. One difficult problem I had--that as far as I'm concerned never quite got handled--was that there was a modern piece by Michael Snow entitled: >---------< Yes, just a line! I dutifully made an index entry for >---------<, and also put it under "Snow, Michael," but in the final index I can't find the title reference anywhere. Maybe they couldn't figure out what to do with it. (It does appear under the artist's name, however.) The gist of this is...if it really matters that captions are indexed and the art itself is indexed, you must include both references...however you decide to do that. I'd say this is especially true for art books (or medical texts, or anything else where the caption may contain vital information). In the situation I describe, the actual artwork got an italicized reference (because it was "art") and the caption got a roman reference (because it was "text"). If they fell together on the same page, the italic reference stood alone--unless there was some other textual discussion of the piece besides just the caption. Otherwise, the piece got two mentions in the index. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:45:28 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Harvey Kaniel Subject: Response to my query To all the participants in this group who responded to my question: I am overwhelmed by the timely, serious, and helpful answers/solutions to my question. If all professional and business people (not to mention everybody else . . .) would be as courteous as you folks, this world would really be a better place. Thank-you all. Best wishes -- Harvey Kaniel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:04:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: England/Britain I go with the term used most in the book. These days, it mostly seems to be Great Britain. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:56:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Pricing Regarding giving a quote on a manuscript: In my experience in book production, type specs and desired page count are decided before a book even goes to the copyeditor. So -- why can't the publisher tell you the final length of the book? If they have decided to print it, they probably know. If you are quoting for an author, ask the author to get that info from the publisher or packager. (Tell me if I'm missing something here.) Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 04:47:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Re: Query about captions I've just at this moment got a closely related problem. I have a book with illustrations and quite substantial captions - and of course ordinary text. What I would like to do is indicate to the reader when the reference is to the caption rather than to the main body of the text, since I can imagine readers wasting time searching through the text for ages before they think of looking in the caption. Someone suggested using (c) to indicate this caption information, but this would obviously need a headnote (or footnote) - preferably on each page. The word `caption' would just take up too much space. I suppose if all of us here on Index-L agreed a standard for this it might gradually become known to users (??) - or am I being far too fussy? Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:17:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Hughes Subject: chemical compounds I'm new to the list; sorry if this is an old question. I have no medical references at hand. I assume words that begin with a hyphenated prefix are indexed letter-by-letter. What about a term like "17-hydroxyprogesterone" or "S-nitrosothiol"? I'd appreciate it so much if someone could tell me the standard. Thanks! Mary Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 02:27:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pricing First of all, thank you to all who have taken the time to anwer my query. I appreciate the many responses I have gotten. I am preparing a quote based on the advice and warnings of all. Secondly, in response to Nan, this packager does not seem to know what length the book will be. She does not know the size of the art involved and does not know how long the book will then be. I have only worked with her once before, but my experience was, unlike other packagers for whom I have worked, she is not as involved in book production. She relies on others for a great deal. I think her expertise is primarily editorial, but I am not sure. She wanted me to give design instructions to the compositor the last time, something I had never done before. In fact, if anyone has had to do this, please let me know. I'm interested. I've always worked for larger publishers who had designers design the index. As I said, this is the second time I would be working for her, and her expectations are different from anyone else's in my experience. Thanks, Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 03:29:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: chemical compounds Mary, No -- to assume letter by letter alphabetization is an incorrect assumption. The style of alphabetization is set for the entire index, either word for word, or letter by letter, and may be determined by the publisher (always ask the style). It is vital that you provide yourself with appropriate reference books. I could suggest the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition, and the Council of Biology Editors style guide called "Scientific Style and Formatting" if you are going to do scientific indexing. Also Nancy Mulvany's book called "Indexing Books." Most of all, however, it is vital to acquaint yourself with chemical nomenclature and prefixes and conventions for alphabetizing them. You didn't state what your qualifications were for having this indexing job, and it is therefore unclear to me how you came to be indexing in a field you seem to be unacquainted with. Please study some chemistry and medical or biology upper level textbook indexes, and acquire some references before proceeding with any indexing projects that require you to work with chemical nomenclature. Or refer your publisher to somebody who is experienced in dealing with this type of material. It would be unwise to work in a technical field if you are not familiar with the nomenclature. The risk of turning in an index with errors is too great Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 03:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pricing Leslie, It would seem to me that if you cannot get a reading on the final number of pages, the only way is to quote per index entry in the final index. Have you ever worked that way. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:34:55 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Presley, Paula" Subject: Thomas Jefferson quote source? I have ALA's t-shirt printed with "I cannot live without books, says Thomas Jefferson." Since our press is Thomas Jefferson University Press, I appreciate having the shirt. Now I need to write a publicity blurb and I'd like to know the source of the quotation. I don't find it in any of my standard reference sources. Surely somebody on this list has this information tucked away in the corner of his or her brain. Thanks, Paula ________________________________________________________________ Paula Presley FAX 816-785-4181 VOICE 816-785-4525 Associate Editor, Thomas Jefferson University Press Northeast Missouri State Univ. (Truman State University July 96) McClain Hall 111-L, 100 E. Normal St., Kirksville, MO 63501-4221 Internet: [effective Jul 1 1996] ppresley@truman.edu ________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:09:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: pricing questions In-Reply-To: <9606130117.AA04540@mx3.u.washington.edu> Alternatively, of course, the bid could be for an hourly rate (which I like but others apparently avoid) or on an per-entry basis. That way the number of m.s. pages is simply not relevant except in calculating how long the project will take. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Patricia Buchanan wrote: > ...I have been > >asked to come up with a quote for a 500 page double-spaced manuscript. > >Normally I give quotes after being given the final page count estimate. Any > >suggestions. ( I usually charge per indexable page of proof.) > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:05:47 CET Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SAMEK@PSP.CZ Organization: Parlament CR, Poslanecka snemovna Subject: Thesaurus or IR Discussion Groups? Hello Everybody: could anybody recommend me an electronic discussion group focused on thesaurus construction or a DG focused on information retrieval? Thank you in anticipation. Tomas Tomas Samek ************************************************************** e-mail samek@psp.cz Parliamentary Library voice +42-2-57 17 53 53 Parliament of the Czech Republic fax +42-2-53 94 06 Snemovni 4 CZ-118 26 Prague 1 Eurovoc Thesaurus URL: http://www.psp.cz/eurovoc/ ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:14:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MrsIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson quote source? I don't know where to find that particular Jefferson quote, but here is another one, from a letter TJ wrote to Nathaniel Burwell on March 14, 1818: "A great obstacle to good education is the inordinate passion prevalent for novels, and the time lost in that reading which should be instuctively employed. When this poison infects the mind, it destroys its tone and revolts it against wholesome reading. Nothing can engage attention unless dressed in all the figments of fancy, and nothing so bedecked comes amiss. The result is a bloated imagination, sickly judgment, and disgust towards all the real business of life." Off to bloat my imagination. Allison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:45:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson quote source? Microsoft's Bookshelf edition of Bartlett's Familiar Quotations lists it as being from a letter to John Adams, June 10, 1815. I would check against another source as well, though. Jan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:05:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: pricing questions In-Reply-To: <199606122312.QAA20013@spork.callamer.com> Patricia, thanks for the most useful information on how double-spaced ms. pages convert to standard book pages. I had not seen this figure before, and had always worked with about a 50% difference. This makes more sense to me. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 13:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INET.NET Subject: Re: chemical compounds Very good comments by Janet that I agree with 100%. My own background is in chemical engineering, and I *still* find suffixes and terminology that baffle me, particularly in the more arcane areas of organic or inorganic chem. I'm a fairly big believer in the concept that indexers should at least in the beginning of their careers stick with areas they're familiar with. I've had the opportunity to "update" or at least examine many chemistry indexes and it's clear to me that some show evidence of "missing the point" on various topics, or a related topic I call "being snookered". I know many indexers feel they have a third sense about intuiting relationships between things, you know like in chemistry who's doing what to whom and what is a subset of something else, what's a superset, etc. In many cases these intuitions are based IMHO on subtle clues given by the authors. And in many cases these clues are just plain wrong!! Subtle implications of relationships that don't exist as implied. The biggest single problem is trying to infer relationships from the structure of the chapter sub headings and sub-sub headings, etc. Very often the arrangement of these headings imply relationships that don't exist. And then I examine the index and see a striking similarity between the structure of the indexes main heads/subs etc and the chapter titles/subheads, etc. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:25:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Indexing Fees I just came across the following on page 49 of the 1996 Writer's Market and thought it might be of general interest: Indexing: $15-40 per hour; charge higher hourly rate if using computer indexing software programs that take fewer hours; $1.50-6 per printed book page; 40-70c per line of index; or flat fee of $20-500, depending on length. p. 51 Indexing for professional journals: $15-40 per hour. p. 53 Indexing for Magazines and Trade Journals: $15-40 per hour. ******************************************************** Lawrence H. Feldman Post Office Box 2493 Wheaton Maryland 20915-2493 301-933-2616 301-942-5902 FAX Lawrenc846@aol.com Indexer - Researcher - Writer ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:27:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: chemical compounds In a message dated 96-06-13 02:56:33 EDT, you write: >I'm new to the list; sorry if this is an old question. I have no medical >references at hand. I assume words that begin with a hyphenated prefix >are indexed letter-by-letter. What about a term like >"17-hydroxyprogesterone" or "S-nitrosothiol"? I'd appreciate it so much >if someone could tell me the standard. Thanks! > > Mary Hughes > Mary, In addition to the references that Janet gave you, I recommend getting a copy of the American Chemical Society's Style Guide if you find that you'll be indexing quite a few texts with chemical compounds in the future. (Warning: If you muddle through well enough to please your client, you may find more of them in your future. ;-D) Especially useful for indexing is the table titled "Locants and Descriptors in Chemical Names". This table gives how the name a compound would appear in text (as in the middle of a sentence), but also how it should appear at the beginning of the sentence--most importantly which character to capitalize. (If your main entries don't begin with capital letters, it is still extremely useful for determining which letter to sort on, which is the capitalized letter. This is why it's so useful for indexing, though that wasn't what they necessarily had in mind for this table. ;-D) Somewhere in this mass of papers here in my office I have ACS's address, but it's not at my finger tips at the moment. (I only have a copy of the table, not the entire guide.) However, the American Chemical Society does have a Web site containing ordering information for the Style Guide. (You can use a Web search engine to search for the American Chemical Society's site and the major search engines are accessible from ASI's Web site at: http://www.well.com/user/asi/.) Another, rather pricey reference ($50+) is "The Merck Index", available from technical bookstores, which has occasionally helped with sorting issues I haven't been able to solve using the ACS Style Guide. It's also useful at times when the author doesn't spell out the name of the compound (and the copyeditor's dropped the ball), but writes something like AgI instead of spelling out Silver iodide. "Stedman's Medical Dictionary" is also extremely helpful when indexing medical or biochemical subjects. (Be sure to read the information in the front matter on the sorting method used.) You can also get a bit of help from "Webster's Standard American Style Manual", the sections on physical sciences, biology and medicine, etc. in terms of at least finding out what various things mean (not necessarily how to index and sort them). Yet another reference is McGraw-Hill's "Dictionary of Scientific and Technical Terms" which is between $80-90. (Yep, my bookshelves are bowed with these tomes, even dictionaries on mathematics. ;-D) Now, for your particular compounds: You should sort "17-hydroxyprogesterone" on the "hydroxyprogesterone" part. (Number locants, such as the "17" are ignored in sorting.) As for "S-nitrosothiol", ignore the element symbol locant, "S", and sort on the "nitrosothiol" part. As Janet said, this is regardless of whether you are using a letter-by-letter or word-by word-sort order. As a rough guide, element symbol locants such as S, N, O, H (all followed by dashes) are ignored in sorting. This is also the case when these letters are immediately followed by the symbols for prime (') or double prime. Also ignored in sorting are Greek letter locants (alpha, beta, etc.), positional descriptors (cis, trans, sec, tert, etc. which are customarily italicized in the text and index), and stereoisomer descriptors (E, Z, meso, exo, threo, etc. which are also usually italized). However, if you have two compound names that are identical except for the locant, use the locant to determine sort order, such as (taken from an index of mine that the editor told me gave him a headache just to read): 12-Hydroxyisoretulinal 16-Hydroxyisoretulinal If your text is chock full of compound names that should be indexed, you'll have to go beyond anal in being meticulous about typing in entries that, at first glance, look identical but are not. Otherwise, you may end up with errors with entries such as (from the same index): 15'-Hydroxy-14',15'-dihydroborreverine 15'-Hydroxy-14',15'-dihydroisoborreverine (Just the "Hydroxy-" entries went on for over a column!) I know that indexing books with a lot of chemistry seems well nigh impossible at first if you don't have a chemistry background. I don't, yet I index a lot of biochemistry texts (once having just arrived about 20 minutes ago ;-D) and I can tell you that the learning curve is steeeep though eventually you'll pass the knee of the curve. However, with the right references, a good relationship with your editor, the willingness you've shown to ask questions and look things up, and massive intellectual efforts, you'll start getting the hang of it. You may even start to like it! ;-D If you have any further difficulties, email me privately and I'll try to help. Good luck! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 13:55:41 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: perdue susan h Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson quote source? Paula: The quote is indeed from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 10 June 1815, written from Monticello. I found it in John Kaminski, Citizen Jefferson: The Wit and Wisdom of an American Sage (Madison House, 1994), p. 7. I can't tell you the collection; possibly at DLC or Univ. of Va. Susan Perdue/Managing Editor Papers of John Marshall College of William and Mary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 15:28:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Indexing course on video I give a one-day workshop in the Boston area on Basic Indexing Skills. This workshop is available as a 3-cassette video. I've hesitated to mention this because it seems like self-advertising, but I gather from the May postings (I was away in May and got them all at once) that many people would be interested in hearing about an alternative to the USDA course. The basic format of the workshop is as follows: A one-hour introduction to basic indexing principles. I keep this short. This course takes a very practical approach and is not theoretical. I discuss the overall method of indexing and how to select entries. The emphasis of this course is on developing judgment.. I spend very little time on mechanics, which. I feel can be learned from the Chicago Manual of Style. The course comes with a 30-page course book outlining the basic principles so students can review and practice at home. Most of the workshop is devoted to doing exercises and discussing almost every word on the page at length. This enables the students to hear how other people index and to get feedback on entries they hadn't thought of. Twenty minutes is spent describing indexing software. One and a half hours is devoted to talking about finding clients, sending letters to publishers (samples included), fees, schedules, etc. I feel that it's important to discuss freelancing, both to help the students get established and to help develop and maintain professional attitudes in the field of indexing.. Students get unlimited telephone consultation time. Many members of ASI started with this course. If you are the kind of person who wants initial guidance and are then able to continue learning on your own, you can become an indexer by taking this course. I don't want to violate netiquette by stating the price, but it costs less than the USDA course. Anyone who wants more information can e-mail me, including asking for my phone no. I'm happy to discuss whether indexing would be a good career choice, job prospects, etc. My mailing address is Susan Holbert Indexing Services 24 Harris Street Waltham, MA 02154-6105 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:40:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ruth McCammon Subject: Re: Indexing course on video In-Reply-To: from "Susan Holbert" at Jun 13, 96 3:28 pm Dear Susan, I am a brand new ASI member who is looking for indexing training and trying to decide which route to go. I would very much like the information on your video course (and the price of course!). Please send the information to: Ruth McCammon 1544 South Vaughn Circle Aurora, CO 80012 Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:06:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Re: Indexing course on video Please send me info about your video workshop! This is the sort of resource I want to include in the resource-list for our local STC Indexing SIG. Thanks! ====================================================================== Robin Hilp - robin@microtekintl.com - "Play me Le Jazz Hot, baby!" business: Microtek International, Inc | personal: 2373 N.W.185th #329 3300 NW 211th Terrace | Hillsboro, OR 97124 Hillsboro, OR 97124 | Mbr DNRC - Mgr STC WVC Indexing SIG - Margret Bjorn's Dottir, An Tir ====================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:43:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Indexing unfamiliar subjects (was Re: chemical compounds) Janet and Kevin, Friends, I think all three of us (including *me*) jumped to a possibly false conclusion when reading Mary's post. We all concluded that she was indexing a chemistry book when all she did was ask about sorting two specific chemical compounds that could have merely been mentioned importantly enough to index in an otherwise nonchemistry-related text. At least one of the compounds she asked about is a drug (according to Merck's), so she could be indexing a book about a medical subject written for laypeople. (And I've seen some pretty advanced stuff written for lay audiences. Check out bodybuilder magazines and you'll see articles on nutrition that one would have to be a biochemist to understand--just as an example.) Furthermore, I've indexed books that weren't about chemistry per se, but were laden with discussions chemical reactions and compounds. The same happens frequently with mathematics. I've yet to index a book on calculus per se, but have frequently indexed terms associated with it in discussions of other subjects. Now, if we follow this logic to it's proper conclusion, we'd end up saying that one has to be a chemist and a mathematician to index almost anything scientific! Now, is it really fair to nearly challenge her right to index chemistry texts (if indeed it is a chemistry text) because she merely asked a question about chemical compounds? Secondly, I have heard more than one medical indexer on medical indexing panels at ASI conferences say that one does not have to have a background in medicine to index medical texts, including the really heady stuff--just experience. Yet medical texts often contain a lot of biochemistry. (Though, one has to start somewhere to gain the experience, IMHO.) The first text I indexed containing chemical compounds, etc. led me to post a question on AOL's indexing forum asking nearly the same questions about sorting that Mary asked. I was very happy to receive specific responses addressing the issue (including from nonchemists who happen to index a lot of chemical terms) and no one asking *why* I, a nonchemist, was indexing a chemistry book (which it wasn't, but a physics book with lengthy discussions of polymers). Kevin, you said in part: >I know many indexers feel they have a third sense about intuiting >relationships between things, you know like in chemistry who's doing what to >whom and what is a subset of something else, what's a superset, etc. In >many cases these intuitions are based IMHO on subtle clues given by the >authors. And in many cases these clues are just plain wrong!! Subtle >implications of relationships that don't exist as implied. I agree with you in part (and misleading, useless, headings, as you mentioned later, in all types of books is a can of worms all its own). But, IMHO, if one is going to index a text on any unfamiliar subject, it's time to hit the dictionaries, references, etc. rather than just guess or mentally diagram sentences to a fine hair when confused. Yes, it takes time and reduces the profitability of the project, but if an indexer wants to index texts in a certain field in which they don't already have a solid background, the effort pays off down the road (or even if they want to keep the same client by delivering a good index the first time around). Consider how much we've all learned simply from indexing texts on the same subject matter over and over. I didn't know diddlysquat about object-oriented programming and the first book I indexed on the subject found me absolutely clueless. But I've done so many of them, with each one becoming easier and easier, that now I can really crank on them. (And this is fortunate as I have a 900+ pager right here that I have to get out in 10 days.) No, I certainly don't know enough about it to call myself an object-oriented programmer, but I can competently index books on the subject. Someone said that the mind is much like a rubber band that, when stretched to the limit, does not quite return to its original dimensions when released. IMHO, we walk away after indexing intellectually grueling books thinking that we don't remember much of anything that was said in the text, however, we find that that all kinds of lightbulbs go on when we encounter the subject again and pieces of the puzzle start to come together. (I'm saying this with the assumption that the indexer actually mentally wrestled with the subject and didn't just cobble the index together in a clueless, slap-dash fashion.) IMHO, the secret to successfully indexing difficult texts, whatever the subject, is a) realizing when one is in over one's head and not blindly forging ahead; b) seeking out further information on whatever is giving you difficulty. This can include checking reference books, using online resources, posting questions to other indexers, and asking the client (especially when you have access to the author). I keep a notebook beside me while indexing and whenever I find myself knee-deep in alligators, I jot down what I'm confused about and then go on a research expedition. Heck, my asking questions about something unclear in a software text led to the software company finding a bug in the program! So, you never know what goodies asking the right question can lead you to. ;-D None of this is said to, at all, disparage the value of your chemistry degrees, especially when it comes to indexing texts on the subject. Sorry to go on so, but I hate to see someone ask an innocent question and receive responses that the questioner may find discouraging. It's amazing what can be accomplished when one really puts one's mind to it. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:41:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Autobiographical entry For the book of autobiographical essays I'm indexing with three levels of entries, alphabetization is word-by-word. I think making a single exception for the subs and sub-subs under the author's main entry is appropriate. What do you all think? It makes sense to me to use chronological subs, for example Smith, Joseph P. birth childhood adolescence adulthood education career awards travel but then, in what sub order would you put illnessness friends mother father brother aunts uncles cousins geneaology Each sub has many sub-subs so I can't lump the last seven under a sub called family. Also, for the sub called education I am thinking about arranging the sub-subs chronologically, for example Smith, Joseph P. education elementary secondary college graduate school but where in this sub-sub list would you put items like music lessons soccer camp The fall-back position is to treat Joe Smith like any other entry and just do straight alphabetizing with no exceptions. Is it acceptable to mix alphabetization styles in indexes to ordinary biographies or autobiographies (not exhaustive, multi-volume behemoths)? Diane Worden WordenDex Plus, Kalamazoo, Mich. wordendex@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 22:52:23 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max McMaster Subject: Re: Query about captions Drusilla, > I have a book with illustrations and quite substantial captions - and of course >ordinary text. What I would like to do is indicate to the reader when >the reference is to the caption rather than to the main body of the text, >since I can imagine readers wasting time searching through the text for >ages before they think of looking in the caption. Someone suggested using >(c) to indicate this caption information, but this would obviously need a >headnote (or footnote) - preferably on each page. The word `caption' >would just take up too much space. I suppose if all of us here on Index-L >agreed a standard for this it might gradually become known to users (??) >- or am I being far too fussy? You are not being too fussy, captions are extremely important sources of information, and in many instances the only source of information on a particular topic within a text. You don't have to resort to using (c) to indicate the caption, just use bold to refer to the illustration (and its associated caption) which is fairly standard. Even though a note at the beginning of the index explaining your use of bold should be included, rest assured the user is unlikely to look at it. Even so, the bold locator will certainly show that the entry is "special" in some capacity and alert them to look for something different on the page. Max Max McMaster Master Indexing mindexer@interconnect.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:42:16 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LINDA SOLOW BLOTNER Subject: Re: Autobiographical entry It seems to me that your chronological list isn't only chronological - travel, awards, education could occur at various points in a person's life. So from the perspective of the user, I don't think this arrangement would be clear. Also, using your suggested education entry, music lessons are a part of education.... In a biography I indexed, I organized the subheadings of the subject under headings like family, education, publications, performances, etc. I tried to look at the entries I had and organize them according to what was there rather than superimpose traditional kinds of headings into which all of my entries didn't quite fit. It made it a much easier task and the final index seemed to hang together just right. Linda Solow Blotner Hartt Library Univ. of Hartford W. Hartford, CT 06117 blotner@uhavax.hartford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:07:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown <104571.560@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Autobiographical entry Diane... My approach (thoughtfully guided by others) was to index the major categories of the biographee's life as you have indicated in your first list, but to do so alphabetically rather than chronologically. That allows you to insert some of the categories from your second list as subentries with no worries. The trick is to be judicious about what you will actually enter for the biographee. Consider this fictitious example: Aytth, Henry father of, 00 mother of, 00 wives of, 00, 00, 00, 00, 00, 00 All of those entries can be moved elsewhere, thus unburdening the main entry, which tends to grow out of control: Aragon, Catherine (wife), 00 Boleyn, Anne (wife), 00 Cleves, Anne (wife), 00 Howard, Catherine (wife), 00 Parr, Catherine (wife), 00 Seymour, Jane (wife), 00 Sevin, Henry (father), 00 York Elizabeth (mother), 00 Have you seen Hazel Bell's article on indexing biographies? It is excellent. Cheers, Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 12:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Thesaurus or IR Discussion Groups? -Reply on June 13 (or thereabouts) Tomas Samek wrote: Could anybody recommend me an electronic discussion group focused on thesaurus construction or a DG focused on information retrieval? Thank you in anticipation. Hello Tomas! You may find it interesting and informative to subscribe to the listserve for users of the Art & Architecture Thesaurus. Although it is directed at an audience of users of one specific thesaurus, the discussions on the list range quite widely over the field of thesaurus construction and usage, as well as terminology in general. There are even substantial discussions about other thesauri. An AAT user services staff member (not myself) reads the list and answers all questions directed to the AAT, and certainly responds to questions about thesaurus construction. Anyone is welcome to subscribe, lurk, and join in any and all discussions. It is hosted by David Austin at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and has been running since early 1995. Send a message to DAustin@UIC.edu to subscribe. I believe the message should be worded in the standard fashion, like this: SUBSCRIBE AAT-L Tomas Samek. If this does not work, please e-mail me a message to that effect at the address given below after my name. I'll get our user services people on to it. Hope this is helpful. Sincerely, Alison Chipman achipman@aat.getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:09:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: chemical compounds In-Reply-To: <199606131955.MAA23568@spork.callamer.com> Kevin, I agree with your comments completely! I would say, though, that it IS possible to move into scientific subjects and do good indexing...with proper training and study. I'm not a scientist (nor do I play one on TV). A year or so ago, a good client asked me to do an index for a molecular biology textbook aimed at third- and fourth-year college students. He knew I was inexperienced with heavy scientific indexing, but we both had confidence that I could manage this job with some assistance. He sent me the index from the previous edition, which was a godsend. I purchased a couple of similar books on my own hook, and read them selectively--matching content with indexing entries and studying how specific terms (common to all the texts) were indexed. It helped that the pages came slowly...I had plenty of time to complete each chapter and review it before moving on. In the end, I was pleased with the product and so was the client. Though I would not give myself an "A" on this particular assignment, I would rate it a solid "B." And I'm certain I could improve my performance considerably, given more opportunities. I would also note that I did take a fair amount of biology-related subjects in college--unlike chemistry, which my last professor passed me in ONLY if I would swear never to take another chemistry class as long as I lived. And that's one promise I've kept! (I know the structure of that last sentence is terrible, but it's too early in the A.M. to fix it.) I would like to do more of this type of indexing, because I really enjoyed the challenge and because, quite honestly, it pays a lot better than straight textbooks do. And while we're on the subject, I'll come right out and say that I charged $3.50 a page for this index and it was not enough. I had deliberately charged less than I knew an experienced scientific indexer would charge, because it was at least partly a learning experience and it wasn't fair to bill the publisher for my tuition. OTOH, even leaving out the extra time I took to study other texts and the extra time it took to just get through the work because of my inexperience, I =still= charged too little. I would not tackle a job like that again for less than $4 or $4.50 a page, and I bet an experienced indexer would charge even more. It was incredibly painstaking, complex, and LENGTHY! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:26:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: chemical compounds In-Reply-To: <199606132023.NAA26522@spork.callamer.com> Lynn, I probably should have appended this to my comments directed at Kevin, to save bandwidth, but I want to thank you for being particularly patient and helpful about standard references, indexing issues, etc. I've printed out your post for future reference so that eventually I do make it around the "knee" of the curve! I can attest to the importance of being absolutely anal about spelling terms. I must have gone through my molecular biology index three times JUST for that purpose, having exhausted the usefulness of WordPerfect's spell checker almost immediately. (Yes, I know I need to get a spell-check dictionary specifically for scientific terms.) I was lucky in that the editing had been fairly precise, though I did discover two or three cases where the same term (or what I assume was the same term) was spelled slightly differently in a couple of places. I flagged those to the attention of the production editor in charge of the book, since I was not about to make a unilateral decision regarding something I knew so little about. This project left me exhausted, but also eager to learn more and do more. It's not often these days that I find such a pleasing combination of challenge and reward; I've been indexing long enough that, while the work is certainly enjoyable (and I always take away some new knowledge from each book), it's not usually especially challenging. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:46:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: chemical compounds Sonsie, Jumping into the fray re indexing scientific/technical material without a heavy science background (which I have), let me say that if one attempts that, one had best be a quick learner, meticulous researcher, and have good friends who are tech/sci indexers. ;-) Also, this is not a task for the faint of heart. Although possible, it is best left to a very experienced indexer, and is not a good idea for a relatively new indexer. In that case, I would counsel the new indexer to stick to more familiar material, for the sake of both the publishers/authors in this world and for the indexer's own reputation's sake. As for rates for that type of indexing, you said: > I would not tackle a job like that again for less than $4 or > $4.50 a page, and I bet an experienced indexer would charge even more. It > was incredibly painstaking, complex, and LENGTHY! I wish! I'm glad you appreciate the complexity and difficult of preparing an index in upper level physical sciences. I wish more editors and publishers did! As in many other areas of our field, the pay rate is often NOT commensurate with the difficult of the material, the skill of the indexer, or the tightness of the deadline. The $4-$4.50 rate you posited is not the norm. It is possible, it happens ..... but it's the exception rather than the rule. We still have an uphill fight on our hands there. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:09:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "esvax::mrgate::a1::postmaster"@ESVAX.DNET.DUPONT.COM Subject: Automatic reply to mail addressed to MINKIEL From: NAME: Mail Postmaster FUNC: TEL: To: "INDEX-L%BINGVMB.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU"@ESDS01@MRGATE Greetings! Luray Minkiewicz will be out of the office June 17-21. For SCION matters, please contact Florence Kvalnes (992-2671) or the SCION Helpline (992-4296). Otherwise, you may contact Catherine Lisa at 992-2709. Thanks, Luray ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:34:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Susan's course I took Susan Holbert's course (in person, not the video) and it was great. Very helpful, mainly in letting me know for a reasonable investment of time and money, whether I was even interested in indexing. It pointed me to the USDA course, as well. I must say that I can't imagine having tried to get into indexing without both these courses. I would have made an utter idiot of myself. (Some will say I did anyway, but they aren't nice.) Any questions, feel free to email me. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 18:51:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Autobiographical entry Linda, Re music lessons as part of education, are you suggesting to place the locator for music lessons immediately after education and not try to make it a sub-sub entry? Diane Worden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 18:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Autobiographical entry Craig, At first I thought I'd put the names of all relatives as main entries of their own. Then it dawned on me that their claim to fame was only in connection with the author of the book being indexed and nobody else would look in the main body of the index for their names. At that point I switched them to subs under the author's name and put their activities, characteristics, influences, etc., as sub-subs. That's my rationale. Thanks for the Hazel Bell reminder. Diane