From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 11-SEP-1996 16:20:24.41 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9609A" Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:19:09 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9609A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:36:03 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Charging for proofreading? At 14:16 26/08/96 -0400, you wrote: > Like >Heather, I think it'd bother me terribly if I *didn't* alert clients to >errors I find. And I love to hear an editor exclaim, "Good catch!" > I also send a list of errors, after checking first that the editor would like this done (and they all do) (I hate to say it, but I'd feel a bit disappointed if there was nothing there for me to catch!). Where I feel a bit uncomfortable is in sending comments about things that are not grammatical or spelling errors, but are possible errors of expression and meaning. For example, in a book I am currently indexing on the inclusion of students with disabilities in mainstream classrooms there is a section on 'readability' of textbooks, in which the authors say that teachers should aim to 'decrease the readability of text'. To me this sounds wrong: teachers should *increase* readability. Also, using the Flesch readability levels which they discuss, a lower number shows less readability. So again, this suggests the level should increase. But perhaps there is special usage here that I am not aware of, and perhaps I should give the authors more credit for knowing what they are talking about. On the other hand, if it is wrong, what a shame for it to be published without correction. So I send my comments to the editor, but with a vague feeling that I am overstepping the limits of *my* role. For those of you that do send corrections, what would you do in these circumstances? Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:36:26 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Index entry software under development I'm currently working on a Windows-based index entry program, written in Visual Basic. I have tried to maximise the speed of data entry by allowing users to re-use existing entries rather than having to retype them each time - which I find a big drawback with Macrex. Eventually I hope the program will support a full range of indexing facilities, but at the moment it's geared to producing 'standard' indexes of relatively short books (1 level of subheadings, <1000 main entries, <5000 main entry locators). I hope to have an alpha version ready in a few weeks, and to help me with it I would like to get an idea of: a) Who would be interested in testing the program? b) Who would be in the market for such a program? If you might be interested in giving it a try, now or later, I'd appreciate it if you could answer the following questions by direct e-mail: 1. How much would you be prepared to pay for such a program? 2. What indexing software are you currently using, and what do you see as its major flaws? 3. What model of computer do you use? 4. Do you use Windows 95, or intend to use it in the near future? 5. What is the resolution of the monitor you use (e.g. 640*400, 800*600, 1024*768)? 6. How many colours does it support? 7. Would you be interested in testing and reporting on an alpha version of the program? Thanks, Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: help with names please The correct form of the name follows your question; you could make cross references from the incorrect form of the name (i.e. Lourdes Pintasilgo, etc.): At 11:34 AM 9/1/96 +1200, Simon Cauchi wrote: >My reference books fail me about the following names of parliamentarians in >various countries around the world: > >Mitsui Mariko (Japan): which is the family name, Mitsui or Mariko? Mitsui, Mariko > >Khunying Supatra Masdit (Thailand): so in running text, but to be indexed >under which element of the name? Khunying Supatra Masdit (according to AACR2, Thai names are entered "under the first element.") Make a cross reference from Masdit. > >Vigdis Finbogadottir (Iceland): personal name and patronymic, to be indexed >under Vigdis? Finbogadottir, Vigdis > >Bandaranaike (Sri Lanka): is her first name Sirimaro or Sirimavo? Sirimavo > >Maria de Lourdes Pintasilgo (Portugal): if I understand Mulvaney, p. 167, >correctly, this should be indexed as "Lourdes Pintasilgo, Maria de": OK? No... Pintasilgo, Maria de Lourdes > >Muhammed Hafiz Sheikh (Pakistan): to be entered under which element? My >guess is "Hafiz Sheikh, Muhammed". Sheikh is an honorific. I recently did a book on Iranian politics and had similar problems with names. Muhammed Hafiz Sheikh can be used as it is, according to some authorities. > >Any help will be greatly appreciated. TIA > >>From Simon Cauchi, 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand >Telephone & facsimile +64 7 854 9229 E-mail: cauchi@wave.co.nz > > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:20:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Indexer duties? At 04:36 PM 9/1/96 +1000, Glenda wrote: >Where I feel a bit uncomfortable is in sending comments about things that >are not grammatical or spelling errors, but are possible errors of >expression and meaning. > I understand exactly what you're talking about. I'm currently indexing a philosophy book on causation and preemption. In this particular chapter, the author is discussing neo-Humean theory. He's talking about a particular dilemma facing neo-Humeans. And in the very next sentence, I read, "For the Humean, the task of pairing the preempting ^^^^^^ cause . . . is equivalent to [this] task." Well, I'm not sure if the sentence is correct as is (is the author contrasting Humeans with neo-Humeans?), or if "neo-Humean" would be correct here. I'll query it, but I, like Glenda, will feel a bit uncomfortable. Still, I'd rather feel uncomfortable than let a (possible) error slip by. Now, here's something else. The author of this book uses quite a detached, scholarly tone. And suddenly, I find, "Let's now consider" at the head of a sentence. "Let's," rather than "Let us," sounds a bit casual to me. I'll probably query this as well. > perhaps >I should give the authors more credit for knowing what they are talking >about. On the other hand, if it is wrong, what a shame for it to be >published without correction. Exactly how I feel: torn. >So I send my comments to the editor, but with a vague feeling that I am >overstepping the limits of *my* role. Glenda, I'd be interested to hear what editors have said in the past when you've sent in such comments. >I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. Love the sig line! And it's awfully apt for the current discussion, isn't it? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:28:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexer duties? Hazel and Glenda, The errors you mentioned are exactly the type of potentially egregious errors I would notify the editor about right away (with the exception of the style question--I would query or perhaps mention it over the phone). Potentially incorrect or inaccurate information is much more of a problem in any book than a little typo. And for textbooks, the publisher can be sued by school districts and users now for these errors. They would be grateful to hear about them, I'm sure. I was when I was an in-house editor. The typos could wait to be fixed in reprint. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:54:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: help with names please At 11:34 AM 9/1/96 +1200, Simon wrote: >My reference books fail me about the following names of parliamentarians in >various countries around the world: > >Mitsui Mariko (Japan): which is the family name, Mitsui or Mariko? In the _Chicago Manual of Style_, 14th edition, Section 17.119: "Japanese names normally consist of two elements, a family name and a given name--in that order. If the name is Westernized, as it often is by authors writing in English, the order is reversed. Thus: "JAPANESE ORDER WESTERN ORDER Tajima Yumiko Yumiko Tajima "In recent years, however, there has been a tendency among authors writing in English on Japanese sujects to use the traditional order for personal names. It is important . . . that the indexer make certain which order the author has used. If a name is in Japanese order, it is left as is, with no inversion and no comma; if in Western order, it is inverted, with a comma, like a Western European name." Maybe best to check with your publisher-client? >Khunying Supatra Masdit (Thailand): so in running text, but to be indexed >under which element of the name? From CMS 14, Section 17.125: "Family names are used in Thailand, but the person is normally known, and addressed, by the personal name. (In Thai order, the personal name precedes the family name.) The personal name is usually used in alphabetizing but practice varies among students of Thai culture, as shown by the following examples: "Sut Saengwichian Songsaengchan, Suphat "Damrong, Rachanuphap, Prince Thong-Urai, Prachap" Decisive, huh? ;-)) >Vigdis Finbogadottir (Iceland): personal name and patronymic, to be indexed >under Vigdis? I'd heard (now, this could be one of those urban legends) that in the telephone books of Iceland, people's names are alphabetized under the first name. Is this true? >Maria de Lourdes Pintasilgo (Portugal): if I understand Mulvaney, p. 167, >correctly, this should be indexed as "Lourdes Pintasilgo, Maria de": OK? Well, when I look at Mulvany, page 167, that's the reading I get. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on Portuguese names. I've indexed several history books that include Portuguese names, and I've relied heavily on _Webster's New Biographical Dictionary_. And then I come up with conflicting results. For example, there's Vasco Nun~ez de Balboa. _Web Bio_ alphabetizes him as "Nun~ez de Balboa, Vasco." Mulvany would alphabetize him as "Balboa, Vasco Nun~ez de." In the particular history book I'm looking at at the moment, I checked with the editor for whom I was working. She preferred alphabetization under "Balboa." >Muhammed Hafiz Sheikh (Pakistan): to be entered under which element? My >guess is "Hafiz Sheikh, Muhammed". CMS 14, Section 17.114: "Most modern Arabic names consist of a given name plus a family name (e.g., Zakir Husain) or a given name plus the given name of the individual's father plus the family name (e.g., Ahmad Hamid Hmisi). Such names are alphabetized under the family name: "Husain, Zakir Hmisi, Ahmad Hamid Mahfouz, Naguib" CMS 14, Section 17.115: "Arabic names of _earlier_ periods (my underlining) are indexed in the form in which they originally beame familiar in the West. . . . For later times, too, the principle often holds. The founder of Saudi Arabia, for instance, is indexed under his patronymic, Ibn Saud, capitalized as if it were a surname, but his son and successor is indexed under his given name, Faisal; in both instances these happened to be the forms in which the names first became familiar in Europe and America." Sounds vague again. I think you couldn't possibly go wrong to make a list of problematic names and then check with your publisher-client as to how he or she would prefer the names handled. Shows that you know what you're doing, that you value the reader, and that you're eager for your client's opinion. Just my two cents. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:15:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Application form Thanks very much to those who e-mailed me the ASI application form! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:40:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@AOL.COM Subject: Mass. Chapter Fall Conference Massachusetts Chapter, American Society of Indexers Fall Conference 1996--Saturday, September 28, 1996, 8:15 am to 5 pm "The Process of Indexing" featuring Nancy Mulvany Sturbridge Host Hotel and Conference Center 366 Main Street, Sturbridge, MA For directions, call the hotel at (508) 347-7393 Experienced or novice, the best indexers are always seeking to improve their skills. So, the Massachusetts Chapter of ASI has put together a program that offers something to help you at each step in the process--whether it's: o Analyzing the "aboutness" of a text, o Marketing your services, o Honing your business acumen and practices, o Being effective by being efficient about the right things, o Developing a work style and schedule that fits *you.* We are especially pleased to have Nancy C. Mulvany, past president of ASI and author of _Indexing Books_ as our featured speaker, as well as workshops led by other well-known teachers, indexers, and editors, including Ann Blum, the current president of ASI. Conference Schedule 8:15 to 8:45 Registration and coffee 9 to 10:15 Concurrent Workshops The Marketing Process. Learn how to market your indexing skills to potential clients. Susan Holbert, indexer and indexing consultant, is well-known in New England for her training seminars and videos. She specializes in software manuals, but has indexed a variety of books, ranging from Rosalynn Carter's autobiography to the Boston Symphony Orchestra Cookbook. Making the Indexing Process More Productive. Ann Blum, president of ASI, and Marilyn Rowland, immediate past president of the Massachusetts Chapter, have more than 35 years experience between them. They'll talk about how they work, as well as what they have tried and changed over the years. 10:30 to 12:15 Reflections on Indexing: Our Craft, Our Profession. Nancy Mulvany is the owner of Bayside Indexing Services, a provider of small- and large-scale indexing services for technical documentation projects and serial publications covering the computer industry. She teaches indexing for the University of California and the Graduate School of the USDA, is the author of _Indexing Books_, a past president of ASI, and currently Associate Editor of the Society of Indexers' (UK) journal, _The Indexer._ For the past several years, Mulvany has developed hypertext structures for the presentation of online indexes. 12:30 to 1:30 Lunch (provided) 1:30 to 2:45 What Does An Editor Want? Priscilla Hurdle, Director of Editorial Development and Production at Little, Brown & Co., Professional Division, will talk about what she looks for when she hires freelance indexers and how she evaluates the index manuscripts they produce. Hurdle specializes in medical books, has been a production editor and English teacher, and has been hiring freelancers for eleven years. 3 to 4:30 Concurrent Workshops You're Running a Business! Maria Coughlin has been indexing for more than 16 years and specializes in medical and scientific texts. Diane Benison, Mass. chapter president, who also does freelance writing and editing, specializes in business and history texts. They'll team up again to offer another lively collection of tips, admonitions, and homilies about the nuts and bolts of running an indexing business. The Process of Subject Analysis. Seth A. Maislin works in-house for O'Reilly & Associates, is the sole proprietor of Focus Publishing Services, and has a few off-off-off-Broadway acting credits too. Besides indexing more than 50 computer texts and manuals in the past year, Maislin has spent time thinking about the cognitive process required in indexing. Whether your background is materials science, Baroque music, or cooking, Maislin will help you examine and analyze your own thought processes as they apply to your work. Registration Information; Fees: By September 14 $90 for ASI members, $100 for nonmembers At the Door: $110 for ASI members, $120 for nonmembers Send name, address, phone, fax, e-mail address, and choice of morning and afternoon workshops, with your check made out to Mass. Chapter, ASI, to: Massachusetts Chapter, ASI c/o Cindy Howe 5-3 Deer Path Maynard, MA 01754 For more information, contact Diane Benison, Mass. Chapter President, at (508) 393-3447 or 76620.460@compuserve.com or Barbara J. Stroup, Mass. Chapter Vice-President/President-Elect at (603) 897-0207 or bjstroup@mouse.mv.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:32:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: Charging for proofreading? In a message dated 96-09-01 02:37:25 EDT, Glenda wrote: >, in a book I am currently indexing on the inclusion of students >with disabilities in mainstream classrooms there is a section on >'readability' of textbooks, in which the authors say that teachers should >aim to 'decrease the readability of text'. To me this sounds wrong: teachers >should *increase* readability. Also, using the Flesch readability levels >which they discuss, a lower number shows less readability. So again, this >suggests the level should increase. I'd say you'd HAVE to question that. An ambiguity like that should NOT be there--even if there's some technical reason it's correct! "If the law says that, the law's an ass." Gotta wonder if anybody does "readability" tests on textbooks like this! Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:02:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: To Simon re names Simon--I could send your message to a listserv I belong to called Autocat if you like. It is for catalogers and handles a lot of authority control questions. If you still want further input and have the time (since Monday is a holiday in the States, you might not hear until Tuesday the fourth), send me the message again, and I'll forward it. Put in that they should respond to you directly. I really think Khunying is a title. Cynthia, are you _sure_ it isn't mentioned in AACR2? I'm sorry my AACR2 is still buried. We have just bought four bookcases, so I will be of more use on this sort of question when my library is unpacked! Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: To Simon re names Khun is a title, so perhaps you're right. However, it (Khun) is mentioned in AACR2 but they say (vaguely) that one should "Omit a term of address (e.g. Khun...) unless it is a title of nobility. In case of doubt, include it.")(p. 429) So....???? I include it because I am in a state of doubt. However, if anyone can clarify this (and Autocat would be a good place to check, as would the LC Authorities File, to which I currently do not have access.) >I really think Khunying is a title. Cynthia, are you _sure_ it isn't >mentioned in AACR2? I'm sorry my AACR2 is still buried. We have just bought >four bookcases, so I will be of more use on this sort of question when my >library is unpacked! > >Helen Schinske >HSchinske@aol.com > > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 20:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KINGH@SNYSYRV1.BITNET Subject: Re: help with names please I'm wondering about the struggle to index names properly. I follow author usage, not aacr II which is designed for the cataloging of library collections. When I index a cite, I go to the author's list of references. If I'm indexing a collection or anthology and the references to what appear to be the same person vary, I ask the author to clarify. So I'm just confused about the use of an outside source for name standards. HM King, kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:51:01 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Tips for getting first jobs At 06:09 30/08/96 -0400, you wrote: >I'm wondering how people on this list got their first job. I got my first job through my indexing teacher (an apprenticeship with the work shared); my second was for a book by an anti-smoking charity for which my husband was doing desktop publishing; my third came from a publisher who advertised for indexers with a science background. I look on all these three as lucky occasions which together gave me the initial experience that I needed. I have done 90% of my work for the company from which I got my third job, and the rest comes by word of mouth, so I haven't really had to look further. The hurdle is getting the first job. Apart from getting a mentor (which has been discussed on this list at length), I can only suggest doing an index for a worthwhile organisation for free, or just choosing a book to index as an exercise, and using this sample as evidence of your ability. Also capitalise on any special knowledge you have (science, law,economics?) and target your enquiries to publishers who concentrate on these topics. > I've contacted between 50-75 publishers with no work yet. I remember Ann Hall from Scotland saying that she got one job from her first 50 letters; I think altogether she wrote 200. Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:51:06 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Publishers and jobs at ASI conferences At 20:30 30/08/96 -0400, you wrote: >ASI >held its annual convention in Chicago a month after I was laid off, at a >hotel within walking distance of my home. How could I resist? A Chicago >encyclopedia publisher was looking for someone who could use Cindex. We hit >it off and I had my first job. A few people have mentioned getting jobs from publishers at ASI conferences. We found at the Indexing confernce held in Marysville, Australia last year that there was great interest among indexers, but little among publishers and editors (despite the conference being titled: 'Indexers and Publishers: partners in publishing' or something similar). Do you find that many publishers attend ASI or SI conferences? DO you do anything particular to attract them? GLenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Autocat >Simon--I could send your message to a listserv I belong to called Autocat if >you like. It is for catalogers and handles a lot of authority control >questions. Helen-- This sounds like an absolutely TERRIFIC listserv! Do you have to be a cataloguer to subscribe? Can you tell me more about Autocat? A lot of folks on index-l may know about this list, but it's new to me. I think that names and how to treat them are always going to be difficult questions. As I mentioned, I rely heavily on _Web Bio_, but of course, not everybody's name is in it. And I rely on CMS 14, as well as on Nancy Mulvany's book. But then there are often so many ways to deal with names. Further help is always welcome. Many thanks! And good luck with unpacking your books. We moved into our present house over 1 1/2 years ago, and our books STILL aren't all unpacked. My husband's building floor-to-ceiling bookshelves in the living room, and they take up an entire wall. I can't wait until they're done! We may actually see some of our books again! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:45:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: "khunying" is a title I found the following on the Web: "Khunying Chanut Piyaoui, founder of Thailand's famous Dusit Thani hotel chain, does not believe women have to sacrifice their values to compete in a male-dominated business world. She sees herself as a feminist "of the old school." But while she maintains Thai traditions of womanly reserve, underneath her composure burns a quiet persistence. That drive has lifted her dream of building a hotel to the reality of an international chain with an annual turnover of about $40 million.... Besides her wealth, Chanut is widely credited with recognizing and promoting Thailand's tourism industry, for which she was awarded a royal decoration and the honorary title of Khunying." Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:56:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: help with names please At 08:01 PM 9/1/96 -0500, you wrote: >I'm wondering about the struggle to index names properly. I follow author >usage, I think that this is a really good point. If the author is clear on how he or she uses a name, that'd make it easier for the indexer. However, I've often dealt with books in which a name appears in different ways in different chapters. Usually, this is a problem with multi-author works. (Of course, there are MANY problems with multi-author works! ;-)) ) Either the editor hasn't realized that the same name is being treated in several different ways, or the editor has been told to leave names as they are. Which then presents real problems for the indexer. And what do you do when, say, you're indexing "Charles de Gaulle"? I'd guess that most people in the U.S. would look under De Gaulle, Charles rather than under Gaulle, Charles de Say that your author refers to "Gaulle," rather than "de Gaulle." Should you follow the author's example? And _Web Bio_, for example, does indeed alphabetize this name under "Gaulle." Or what if your author refers to "de Gaulle," yet you know that you really shouldn't be indexing under this particle? Same thing with "Vincent van Gogh." Again, I think the best thing to do is keep the lines of communication with your editor open--or with the author, if you're working directly for him or her. >When I index a cite, I go to the author's list of references. I think this is an excellent point and definitely shows you how the author's thinking. >So I'm just confused about the use of an outside source for name standards. Well, I think all of us love reference books. ;) I certainly do. And it's good to see what the different possibilities are for indexing a particular name. Many times, the author or editor turns out not to have a preference. I've experienced this. Then, the author or editor will say, "Well, what do YOU think?" And if you can tell him or her what you've found in your reference-book hunts, that might help him or her to clarify his or her thinking. Plus, you show yourself to be the dedicated professional you are! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: For Kari Bero Sorry to send yet another personal note to index-l! I've lost Kari Bero's e-mail address. Just wanted her to know that I was indeed able to access the Well's Web page. No problems there. But then I tried yet again to access ASI's Web page and got the message that "http://www.com/user/asi has not been found," or some such similar language. Gremlins? Poltergeists? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:25:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Indexing Workshop >FYI, I will be offering Basic Indexing Skills workshops in the Boston area on Sept 21 and Oct 19. > > The one-day workshop contains information on: > > * how to index. Lots of hands-on practice > * how to find clients, market your services, and negotiate fees > * indexing software > >This workshop is also available on video. >I can send more information on-line, I can mail an info packet about indexing, and I'm always happy to talk to anyone on the phone about the course or about indexing as a career. > >Susan > > Susan Holbert > INDEXING SERVICES > 24 Harris Steet > Waltham, MA 02154-6105 > 617-893-0514 > susanh@world.std.com > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 01:07:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Use of AACR2 In a message dated 96-09-01 20:04:37 EDT, H.M. King wrote: >I'm wondering about the struggle to index names properly. I follow author >usage, not aacr II which is designed for the cataloging of library >collections. When I index a cite, I go to the author's list of references. >If I'm indexing a collection or anthology and the references to what >appear to be the same person vary, I ask the author to clarify. > >So I'm just confused about the use of an outside source for name standards. I think Simon's problems were not solved by looking at author usage. His questions were about how to _alphabetize_ names--which part of the name would come first in the index, etc. Vigdis Finnbogadottir is a good example. How would you know from the text whether an Icelandic name should be indexed under the given name or the patronymic? Or whether "Khunying" in "Khunying Supatra Masdit" is a title or not? I wouldn't like to see my name in an index under M for "Mrs. Helen Schinske," or my mother under D for "Doctor Betty Erwin." Foreign names present hundreds of such problems that can't be solved without recourse to "outside sources." In some cases the author may not know all the answers, never having had to produce an alphabetical list of all the persons s/he's mentioned. Of course, for an indexer, AACR2 doesn't have to be God. AACR2 might prescribe a different *form* of a name than you would get from a particular author's usage, and *that* you wouldn't necessarily follow. If I were indexing a biography of Mark Twain in which the author stubbornly said Samuel Clemens unless he had absolutely no choice but to say Twain, I would put Clemens in the index with a see reference from Twain. AACR2 would prescribe Twain with a see reference from Clemens, which is more logical for a library catalog, as you note. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:52:18 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Indexer duties? I routinely alert the publisher (or author, if I'm indexing for an author) to any errors I've spotted in a text I am indexing: literals, inconsistencies, misquotations, misspellings, grammatical howlers, factual errors. Very often, the indexer is the first person to have compared a name that occurs on one page with another very similar name, perhaps referring to the same person, on another. Moreover, authors often fall into error, I find, when they stray somewhat out of their own special field of expertise. For example: (1) In a biography of a 19th cent. NZ historical figure "Jean Guerrin" turned out to be the same man as "Jean Guerren", so the proofs were corrected and the index entries combined as "Guerren, Jean, 157, 551". (2) A regimental history included some discussion of the regimental cap badge, in which Apollo rather than Jupiter was said to be the father of Mercury and the Roman equivalent of Zeus. The proofs were duly corrected. The change did not affect the index. (3) A cookery book included the sentence: "Dinner didn't used to seem like dinner if there weren't any potatoes on the plate." I recommended a number of possible alternatives for the ungrammatical "didn't used to". (I then submitted the sentence as a query to Copyediting-l, and learned to my surprise that according to some respectable authorities "didn't used to" is considered to be perfectly good grammar. I still think I was right to correct it, though.) (4) In the book I am indexing at the moment there is a sadly garbled quotation of four lines from T. S. Eliot's "Four Quartets", some proper names are misspelt (including that of Sirimavo Bandaranaike---thanks to Cynthia Bertelsen, I now know that my reference book is right and my author is wrong about this), and the abbreviation "OECD" is wrongly expanded as "Organisation of Economic and Cultural Development". The Eliot misquotation does not affect the index, but I shall alert the publisher to that as well as to the others. (5) In the same set of proofs there are formatting errors, e.g. superscript letters used in lieu of small caps, and ordinary text set as part of a displayed (block) quotation. In alerting the publisher to the last, I shall ask to be informed if the correction alters the pagination of the book. I don't charge extra for this work, but regard it as part of the job. If I am hired to proofread as well as index, then I proofread first and then index, charging my normal rates for both tasks. If I am hired only to index, I don't go searching for errors in the proofs, but note them if I spot them. From Simon Cauchi, 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone & facsimile +64 7 854 9229 E-mail: cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 06:37:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WMacallen@AOL.COM Subject: Re: responses/cable programming The responses to questions posted have been tremendous. I'll compile and post responses at the end of this week--since I assume some lucky people are on vacation this weekend--and not tied to their computer! I can attest to the steps that were posted yesterday by Margie. I had an unexpected change in plans so have been home for the weekend. As a result, I decided to organize my business files--it's almost done--but has been a good use of my time--especially since we are being barraged by Hurrican Edouard in Boston. I do have some information to share--since so many others have shared with me and others. I wondered how many people have access to cable and haveb been following the programs on C-span & C-spane 2 on Booknotes? I think the series started when the ABA was in Chicago this last winter. They do programming on the publishing industry on Saturday & Sunday nites. On Sunday nite at 8:00 PM (eastern time) Brian Lamb interviews an author for a full hour. Other programs have involved a variety of different topics, including a tour of R.R. Donnelly Publishing Company last weekend. Has anyone else seen these programs? They are a great learning tools for newbies like me--and provide quite a bit of insite into the publishing industry. Thanks again for all the responses. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Service WMacallen@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 05:21:47 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: banden@ATLAS.AXIOM.NET Subject: Re: help with names please > I'm wondering about the struggle to index names properly. When indexing history books I often must use Webster's Biographical Dictionary or my one volume encyclopedia to clarify the name of a king who the author refers to by given name only. An author may refer to a well known historical figure in an abbreviated form, like last name only, and I use the context of the book as well as my outside sources to figure out how to list that person in the index. Sometimes an author may refer to Lord Chatham in one place and William Penn in another and I use outside sources to determine whether or not this is the same person. When indexing a book with citations I do use the author's bibliography as a guide and rarely consult outside sources. I depend on the author or editor to rectify ambiguous citations by flagging them. Kay Banning ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 06:03:42 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: banden@ATLAS.AXIOM.NET Subject: first jobs I received my first job from my mentor, a name index to a self-published genealogy book. It was a good way to learn my indexing software. There were plenty of indexing issues to resolve (actually more than we had hoped), but it was all worth it when I received a wonderful thank you letter from the author. I went to my first ASI conference when it was held in San Antonio, just down the road from me. I met Joanne Clendenen there, who was starting an ASI chapter in the area. It was great to get in on the beginnings of a chapter. Joanne and I were both newbies and it has been fun to see our businesses grow. I have served as Vice-President and President of my chapter and highly recommend becoming involved in chapter business on that level. It extended my list of indexer friends far beyond my mentor/apprentice relationship, to include people from all around the country. I have received most of my work from referrals from other indexers. My mentor continues to be a source of work, as she gives me her overflow. It took a few years to have year round work, but soon my contacts reached a critical mass and work has started to pile up (literally). One of the biggest thrills is getting a call from someone who does not remember where they got your name! That invisible network is out there working for me. I did answer an ad in KeyWords and have worked for that person on a regular basis since. My mentor also passed on clients to me that were more in my area of interest than hers. I advocate joining ASI, attending national conferences, and becoming active in your local chapter as a way of building a network of indexing friends. Kay Banning ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:40:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WMacallen@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Things to do/mentor Margie's list (that resulted from the Roundtable in Denver) was great! Since I'm getting caught up on files--which includes stuff from tons of previous listserve questions, thought I'd make a couple of comments. As one who is very slowly going through the process of getting started, one needs to think of small accomplishments along the way. The list seems mindboggling if one thinks of the entire list--but if one can check off one thing at a time--like setting up files--it really appears as though you are making progress. I think the most difficult step in that list (at least for me so far!) is finding a mentor.. I had not yet posted replies so will do that now--although I actually had only one or two suggestions from people in mentor relationships. Most of the comments were either: 1) people wanting to know what the responses were 2) people looking for a mentor (hopefully, I didn't miss anything else. So I'd like to ask if it would be possible for people already in mentor relationships (either the mentee or the mentor) talkdescribe the process of locating a mentor/mentee. I realize that the next Key Words will have a column (or at least space for prospective mentees to advertise). If this is not an appropriate venue to discuss this aspect--please let me know. However, I'd still be interested in keeping the topic alive and hope that others who are in a relationship would be willing to share how they accomplished it. I'll post responses in a few days. One final question--is it better to keep issues separate when posting to the listserve? Obviously want to do what is appropriate. Thanks for your input. Willa MacAllen WMacallen@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:34:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: NASEM020@SIVM.SI.EDU Subject: Accessing ASI Web page In-Reply-To: note of 09/01/96 22:03 I, too, have been having trouble connecting with the ASI web page. My dear husband upgraded us to Netscape Navigator 3 and lost all our bookmarks. I've had trouble connecting with several pages with this newest version. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:41:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: ASI web site To all who are looking for the ASI web site, the address is: http://www.well.com/user/asi You can also locate the site from any search engine by asking for "Indexers" -- it should come up early on in the list of hits. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:27:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Heather L. Ebbs" Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: Indexer's duties Glenda Browne wrote, > Where I feel a bit uncomfortable is in sending comments about things that > are not grammatical or spelling errors, but are possible errors of > expression and meaning. I don't feel uncomfortable in these cases. If I notice anything that is or seems likely to be an error--of grammar, spelling, fact, expression or meaning--I pass it on to the editor for her or his decision. If it will affect the index, I pass it on and ask for a response. If it won't, I just pass it on. In general, I'd say that editors are more grateful when I notice a content error than when I notice a mechanical error of some sort. By the indexing stage, the latter type of error is often deemed not worth fixing (till the next print run); the former may be a "Thank goodness you noticed that! We _must_ fix it" type of error. Heather Ebbs editink@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:37:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CACherry11@AOL.COM Subject: Query on preparation for project Greetings! All my back-of-the-book indexing experience has been with technical manuals that I either wrote or revised, so I am always interested to get glimpses of what it is like to index books for others. (I've also assigned retrieval terms for on-line help topics, but I wrote them, too.) Recently several of you wrote about preparing for a project by checking the page proofs you receive from the publisher ASAP. This definitely sounds like a good idea, to catch weirdnesses and missing pages while there is still time to request legible, complete replacements. However, I am puzzled about one thing that several of you mentioned: marking page ranges for sub-sections, illustrations, etc. before you start to index. I must be missing something. If the pages are numbered already, what is the point of noting page number ranges? I hope you will enlighten me! Speaking of page numbers, I'll take this opportunity to ventilate about _the_ most inconveniently formatted book I have ever seen. While attempting to do research at the library this past week I consulted a book that had _no_ page numbers on the even-numbered pages! Each time I found a topic of interest in the index, it was a challenge to find the correct page in the book. To make matters worse, the running title on the unnumbered pages started with the numeral 50, the first "word" in the title of the book! It is hard to imagine a designer who actually thought that was a good idea! Regards, Cheryl A. Cherry cacherry11@aol.com FREELANCE TECHNICAL WRITING PROCESS CONTROL AND SOFTWARE MANUALS FOR ANY AUDIENCE ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia L. Peterson" Subject: AUTOCAT address In-Reply-To: <9609021717.AA25892@medcat.library.swmed.edu> The address for subscribing to AUTOCAT is listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu and you type in the message area subscribe AUTOCAT -- no subject line. Anyone is welcome to join AUTOCAT. Cynthia Peterson, Assistant Manager Database Development & Control U.T. Southwestern Medical Center Library Voice:(214) 648-3906 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. FAX:(214) 648-3981 Dallas, Texas 75235-9049 peterson@medcat.library.swmed.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:30:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Query on preparation for project In a message dated 96-09-02 13:41:20 EDT, Cheryl wrote: > However, I am puzzled about one thing that several of you mentioned: marking > page ranges for sub-sections, illustrations, etc. before you start to index. > I must be missing something. If the pages are numbered already, what is > the > point of noting page number ranges? I hope you will enlighten me! Cheryl, I hope this is coherent as I just got out of the hospital yesterday from having emergency surgery and am cruising at 35,000 feet on pain killers. (Last night I managed to send someone an email on black background with black text, which AOL's latest version allows you to do, so I'm trying to be real careful here. ;-D) The reason I have page ranges marked in advance is so I won't have to go rummaging through the proofs to find the end of a range. It's right there when I'm making the entry. Saves a ton of time. (You do put page ranges in your indexes, don't you? Or are you doing embedded indexing, using software devices to establish page ranges?) > > Speaking of page numbers, I'll take this opportunity to ventilate about _the_ > most inconveniently formatted book I have ever seen. While attempting to do > research at the library this past week I consulted a book that had _no_ page > numbers on the even-numbered pages! Each time I found a topic of interest > in > the index, it was a challenge to find the correct page in the book. To make > matters worse, the running title on the unnumbered pages started with the > numeral 50, the first "word" in the title of the book! It is hard to > imagine > a designer who actually thought that was a good idea! Tell me about it! I recently indexed three manuals that had page numbers only for the odd-numbered pages. Plus, they sent the proofs to me with a page printed on each side of a sheet which was a pain to get used to. I know this sounds trivial but you really get used to putting a page aside when you're done with it, not turning it over to read another page on the back of the sheet. I've also received books ...huge books(!)... where the designer thought it was cool to do weird and funky things with the page numbers, including white numbers on black backgrounds which may have been OK for the book as finally published but got lost in photocopying the proofs for me. (Sort of like the email message I sent last night.) And, I'm not about to try to read the page numbers from those 6-pt headers you often find at the top of the page (outside of the image area). When I go into the "indexing trance", I like to be able to devote all of my energy to entry creation, not fumbling with pages or trying to decipher page numbers, so that's why I have all of this stuff done for me in advance. (Lynn paging mission control: "Did any of this make sense? Over.") Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 16:50:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Page numbers, lack of At 01:37 PM 9/2/96 -0400, Cheryl wrote: >Speaking of page numbers, I'll take this opportunity to ventilate about _the_ >most inconveniently formatted book I have ever seen. While attempting to do >research at the library this past week I consulted a book that had _no_ page >numbers on the even-numbered pages! Each time I found a topic of interest in >the index, it was a challenge to find the correct page in the book. To make >matters worse, the running title on the unnumbered pages started with the >numeral 50, the first "word" in the title of the book! It is hard to imagine >a designer who actually thought that was a good idea! What an absolute, positive nightmare of a page-numbering system! Here's one that I loved: I was supposed to work on an indexing project for which the publishers had the strangest locator system ever. I wasn't supposed to use the actual page numbers in my index. Instead, I was supposed to send the reader back to the table of contents. So, an index entry would look something like this: rutilated quartz, Chapter 2 (Subject matter has been changed to protect everybody involved!) So, the reader would have to flip back to the table of contents, guess where in Chapter 2 he or she could find something on rutilated quartz, and go from there. I talked with the editor and as gently as possible said that I thought this type of indexing system would drive the reader crazy. Of course, the book's numbering system would drive *anyone* crazy: Every chapter began all over again with page 1. I suggested something like 1-1 (for Chapter 1, page 1) or 2.5 (for Chapter 2, page 5), but the editor vetoed the idea. Thank goodness the project fell through. The editor was planning on sending the project in batches, and the last batch was due to arrive a day before the index was due. I tried to explain why it'd be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to prepare an index, but I made little impression. Wonder who ended up doing this book???? Hazel > >Regards, >Cheryl A. Cherry >cacherry11@aol.com >FREELANCE TECHNICAL WRITING >PROCESS CONTROL AND SOFTWARE MANUALS FOR ANY AUDIENCE > > Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:08:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Query on preparation for project At 01:37 PM 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >However, I am puzzled about one thing that several of you mentioned: marking >page ranges for sub-sections, illustrations, etc. before you start to index. > I must be missing something. If the pages are numbered already, what is the >point of noting page number ranges? I hope you will enlighten me! I don't know how others work, but for me it saves time if I make a note of page ranges for entries that I know will be repeated throughout a chapter or section. I type the entry once, with all page numbers, and move on to the next one. I don't bother to do this with passing references (names and so on) that I can tell are not getting another mention for awhile. But for the meatier portions of the index, where I know a specific topic will be covered in several places, it saves time to go through a chapter and note in the margin ONE list of pages for that chapter and that entry. >Speaking of page numbers, I'll take this opportunity to ventilate about _the_ >most inconveniently formatted book I have ever seen. While attempting to do >research at the library this past week I consulted a book that had _no_ page >numbers on the even-numbered pages! Each time I found a topic of interest in >the index, it was a challenge to find the correct page in the book. To make >matters worse, the running title on the unnumbered pages started with the >numeral 50, the first "word" in the title of the book! It is hard to imagine >a designer who actually thought that was a good idea! I think the missing recto folios isn't the designer's fault...sounds like a layout or printing error to me. The first "word" of the book title being 50...well, that reminds me of the Paul Simon song, "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover," and of course we could rewrite that to "50 Ways to Confuse Your Reader" in the circumstance you outline! =Sonsie= =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:09:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: ASI Web page Thanks to everybody for sending the correct URL for ASI's Web page. I was relying on a postcard from ASI that I no doubt received eons ago; it listed the Web page's URL as http://www.com/user/asi. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Let's put the hay down where the goats can get at it." --Senator W. D. Childers, Pensacola, Florida ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:16:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Page numbers, lack of At 04:50 PM 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >Thank goodness the project fell through. The editor was planning on sending >the project in batches, and the last batch was due to arrive a day before >the index was due. I tried to explain why it'd be extremely difficult, if >not impossible, to prepare an index, but I made little impression. Wonder >who ended up doing this book???? Let me guess. This HAD to be from a small press that had published maybe six books, and/or the editor was an absolute newbie, and/or (most probable) the author knew nothing about how books work for a reader and insisted (author's prerogative, don'cha know) on his or her own convoluted and useless scheme. I've worked on lots of books that have a two-part numbering system (i.e., chapter and page...3.34) and find them just about as easy to read and index as any "regular" page-numbering system. And in fact, it actually helps avoid the occasional problem of misnumbering because blanks weren't counted. There ARE no "blanks" before or after chapters in that numbering scheme, so each chapter starts with page 1. Handy! =Sonsie= =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:17:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cindex and Windows NT In a message dated 96-08-30 13:12:04 EDT, bjstroup@MOUSE.MV.COM (Barbara J. Stroup) writes: << How about a regular Pentium processor with WIndows 95? >> I run CINDEX with a Pentium computer and Windows 95...it works just fine, as it did with Windows 3.1. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KINGH@SNYSYRV1.BITNET Subject: Re: Tips for getting first jobs One thing -- I'll do a $1 per page for books over 250 pages but 250 and under I set the rate at $250. For subject only. People do seem to like the sound of $1 per page like .99 an hour! HM King, kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:02:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KINGH@SNYSYRV1.BITNET Subject: Re: Use of AACR2 Thanks Helen, you've made some good points. I imagine each author-editor -indexing relationship demands different roles from the indexer and knowing about aacr and cm guidelines for those tricky cases mentioned in the postings is essential. Oh, thanks to you too, Hazel. You said it first :-). HMK, kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 00:06:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: Tips for getting first jobs In a message dated 96-09-02 21:54:34 EDT, H.M. King writes: >One thing -- I'll do a $1 per page for books over 250 pages but 250 and >under I set the rate at $250. For subject only. People do seem to like >the sound of $1 per page like .99 an hour! >HM King, kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu I know we're not allowed to discuss rates too extensively on this listserv (no price fixing allowed), but isn't $1 per page awfully low? I seem to remember something about an earnings survey a while back. What ever happened with that? Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 02:56:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tips for getting first jobs In a message dated 96-09-02 21:50:50 EDT, HM wrote: > One thing -- I'll do a $1 per page for books over 250 pages but 250 and > under I set the rate at $250. For subject only. People do seem to like > the sound of $1 per page like .99 an hour! > HM King, kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu > HM, Oh, here we go again! ;-D You've triggered my semi-annual rant about "beginners rates" almost right on schedule. I've pasted in an excerpt from my 2/20/96 post on the subject which was in response to a discussion about $2.50/page rates (which is 2-1/2 times your $1/page rate, BTW). Index-ellers who were here for the 2/20 sermon can move on by hitting your delete or next key now. HM, now promise me you'll stay here and read this. ;-D > Now, this is a real "biggie" with me, the concept of "beginner's rates". Is a > new indexer worth his or her salt going to turn in a beginner's index to the > client? Not hardly. And if the indexer is delivering a professional product, > they should be paid professional rates, not "beginner's rates". Does the new > doctor starting out in private practice charge only $10/visit? No, new > doctors have the chutzpah to present themselves as professionals and charge > accordingly. New indexers should do the same. The "romance" of indexing > aside, we're in business (just as doctors are) and we deliver a product as > well as a service. We are not salaried employees working in a structured > pay-scale environment where you have to start out at the bottom. Just as > you'd expect to pay more in a French restaurant (regardless of when they > hung > out their shingle) than in a greasy spoon, indexers delivering > professional-grade indexes should not charge greasy spoon prices. > > Create a whiz-bang sample index to send to prospective clients and prepare > yourself to "walk the walk" of a pro by immersing yourself in learning > everything you can about indexing and publishing in general. Then name a > decent rate when they bring up the subject, not before. (One can always > negotiate down if necessary.) You don't get what you don't ask for. A lot of > it has to do with "perceived value". If you start out by asking a > bargain-basement rate, your potential client will perceive you as a > bargain-basement indexer, at least unconsciously. Yes, it takes a lot of > self-confidence to pull this off and it works best when you receive clients > through referrals (and a resume isn't asked for), but even when you're > marketing, don't present yourself as a "beginning indexer" unless asked > specifically about your experience. (Offer to send your stellar sample index > before they get a chance to ask for a resume and they may not think of > asking > for one. It worked for me. YMMV) Don't even think of yourself as a " > beginning > indexer", don't even go there. > > IMHO, $2 to $2.50/page is inadequate for anyone, though some scholarly > presses will pay that to any indexer, no matter how experienced. I asked for > and got far more than that on my very first indexing project. (I admit that > the client gasped, but then agreed to pay it when I asked if that was > outside > of their budget. ;-D) It can be done with "attitude" and a killer sample > index proving you're worth your stated fees. Then give your new client much > more than they expect and they'll consider you a bargain. (We ARE talking > quality and superior service here, not ripping off clients or deceiving them. > Go that extra mile for them.) "Beginner's rates" hold down the rates for all > of us in the profession and the new indexer who asks for them will remain > behind the curve for a long time. on this subject> > > Lynn Moncrief > TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:04:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Page numbers, lack of At 02:16 PM 9/2/96 -0700, Sonsie wrote: >Let me guess. This HAD to be from a small press that had published maybe six >books, and/or the editor was an absolute newbie, and/or (most probable) the >author knew nothing about how books work for a reader and insisted (author's >prerogative, don'cha know) on his or her own convoluted and useless scheme. Unfortunately, this project came from a good-sized press that publishes a lot of books. However, the publishing house had changed its mission quite a bit and had fired just about all of the "old" editors. So, yes, this editor was a newbie who'd never worked with a freelance indexer before and who didn't know anything about indexes. I still don't know *whose* idea that weird page-numbering scheme was. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:07:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tips for getting first jobs The rate of $1.00 a page is scarey. I know if you are desperate in looking for work, you are willing to work for nothing. But that is not the way to get a decent rate for work done and doesn't imply that you are giving quality. Undercutting a going rate is never a good idea. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:27:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Price-fixing At 12:06 AM 9/3/96 -0400, Helen wrote: >I know we're not allowed to discuss rates too extensively on this listserv >(no price fixing allowed), Y'know, this subject has come up on copyediting-l, too. And I have some questions about it. OK, I'm a nonpracticing (by choice) attorney, and I *definitely* do not have any sort of specialty in antitrust matters, but I'm wondering what's wrong with discussing what we charge. We're not fixing prices; we'd be discussing them. No matter what, some indexers will choose to charge less than or more than other indexers. And rates will vary depending on things like turnaround time, number of indexes to be prepared for one book, technicality of subject matter, and all that stuff. A number of my editor-clients have told me that they talk with editors at other presses to find out what they're paying freelance indexers, editors, and proofreaders. If that's not considered price-fixing, well, then why shouldn't *we* be discussing the same thing? And on a purely practical note: We as freelancers are definitely *not* considered to be deep pockets. The feds may indeed be interested in auto manufacturers and suchlike, but I don't think they much care what we do. As you can tell, I think it's important that we talk about what we charge. > but isn't $1 per page awfully low? I'd like to echo Helen's sentiments. Yes, we can certainly charge whatever we'd like, but $1 per page sounds *extremely* low to me. I've forgotten now who posted this, but unless you're an absolute first-time indexer, I truly think you should be charging a good deal more for your services. You're doing yourself a disservice. And I think you may be doing other indexers a disservice, as well. How many times have folks out there heard the famous, "Well, I know another indexer who can do that project for a lot less"? I've certainly heard it. My response has been, "If that's what's important to you, then I strongly suggest that you hire the person who charges less." >What >ever happened with that [survey on what indexers charge]? The last time I ever saw such a survey was back in 1985, when I was first going into freelance indexing. A reference librarian in St. Paul, MN, photocopied the survey from an old issue of the *ASI Newsletter*. Why are we so afraid to talk about what we charge? Why are we so afraid to charge what we deserve to be paid? Breathing heavily, she descends from her soapbox. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:34:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Indexing rates Go, Lynn, go! I don't think I was around for your earlier "rant" on the subject of rates, but I second, third, and fourth what you have to say! And I trooooooooooly apologize for even talking about charging less if you're an absolute beginner. I can, however, see someone doing that to get that first project. Pays a bit better than doing a project as a volunteer. ;-)) Way to go, Lynn! And no, I'm certainly not talking about ripping off clients, either. I believe that I have a valuable service to sell. I know that indexing takes skill, thought, time, and effort. I know about killer deadlines. If you're worth your indexer's salt, you should be asking for, nay demanding, decent wages. I'm not doing this as a hobby. My income is just as necessary as is my husband's. Rant complete. Over and out. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:46:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: help with names please Hazel, Great discussion! I recently indexed a biography on De Gaulle in which there was much discussion of Gaullism, naturally, and we had a lot of 'fun' deciding what to do with "de Gaulle" .... Having worked on books on France for the same author before, I went with what we had done before, which was "De Gaulle, Charles" (it was an initial cap style, too). Right before the long entry for Gaullism, however, I inserted "Gaulle, Charles de. See De Gaulle, Charles". The publisher was concerned as their style follows Webster's Biographical Dictionary, in which you''ll find de Gaulle under G. You'll find the same recommendation for French names in both Hans Wellisch and Nancy Mulvany's books. I also follow Random House's Biographical Dictionary, in which you'll find de Gaulle under D. "Six to one, half a dozen to the other"?! -- I think a lot depends on the author(s) and the publisher, as has been said. L. Pilar Wyman (Pilar) Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: AebliC@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Autocat I subscribe to Autocat; all you have to do is ask. Send message to: LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (or LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET). In subject area, type SUBSCRIBE AUTOCAT your name. That's it! Carol Aebli AebliC@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:53:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tips for getting first jobs >The rate of $1.00 a page is scarey. I know if you are desperate >in looking for work, you are willing to work for nothing. But >that is not the way to get a decent rate for work done and >doesn't imply that you are giving quality. Undercutting a going >rate is never a good idea. Getting less than $1.00 is even more "scarey" but that is what my only two steady customers pay. One is a set rate of $200 per monograph (until last year it was $150). The number of pages varies from about 180 to 220. The other is an academic journal that pays $500 for the annual index. But the journal has more than 700 indexable pages. Occasionally I get something that pays a higher rate, and I'm very glad to get them, but I don't get that many other books beyond my two steady customers. Yes the rate is "scarey" but not paying the rent or eating is even more "scarey" and I'm too close to the edge to issue ultimatums to steady sources, no matter how small, of income. Yes, I've been trying all suggestions offered to increase my number of customers and have been doing so since 1992. The problem is that the suggestions don't help very much. Is indexing my only source of income? I'd starve if it was. But it is one part of several things that I do to survive. And given that the other things aren't great sources of income, an important part. Lawrence H. Feldman, Ph.D. (Anthropology) and M.L.S. Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:31:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Price-fixing Hazel wrote: >OK, I'm a nonpracticing (by choice) attorney, and I >*definitely* do not have any sort of specialty in antitrust matters, but I'm >wondering what's wrong with discussing what we charge. We're not fixing >prices; we'd be discussing them > >I'd like to echo Helen's sentiments. Yes, we can certainly charge whatever >we'd like, but $1 per page sounds *extremely* low to me Well, Hazel, suppliers "discussing" rates/prices *is* different from buyers discussing rates, and can be considered actionable. This was emphasized in business law courses I took while working as a manager at a large corporation. This has recently come up primarily in the context of ASI, and how ASI's status as a tax-exempt educational organization prohibits us from engaging in pricing discussions or working to increase the rates clients pay (except indirectly, of course, by educating them on the importance of indexing!) If the folks discussing rates on Index-L happen to be ASI members then the connection could be made. While we may not feel big enough to warrant IRS attention, tax-exempt organizations like ASI must walk on eggs. Maybe you shouldn't be too quick to send in the payment for that lapsed ASI membership. ;-D And as for whether $1 a page is a low rate, let me gently remind everyone that a page rate is meaningless in the absence of information about the nature of the book, page size, type of material, etc. Not every book is existential philosophy or quantum chemistry. My best-paying project ever, on an hourly basis, was a small cookbook which I indexed for $1 a page. It had 100 pages, few words, and no recipe had more than five ingredients. I did the index in 3.5 hours. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:27:18 +0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jackie West CONTRACTOR Subject: pricing for indexing Hello! I'm new to the indexing discussions and have appreciated writers' discussions of experiences and their suggestions. I'm fairly new to indexing but am knee-deep in learning as quickly as I can through workshops (Lori Lathrop's is excellent), other means, and grabbing on to an indexing assignment at the current position I'm holding as a consulting/contracting editor with a high tech manufacturing company. I've been reading the recent discussion about salary for freelance indexing, and while my indexing has been included in my hourly fee for what is "technical editing" and runs through a range of tasks, I'm wondering if charging for quality indexing PER HOUR isn't the way to go? I'm treading hesitantly here, since I haven't had the same experiences that folks are talking about, but I recognize a wealth of skills is needed to produce a first-class index, including study, thinking, research...more...to be the quality indexer that you're offering to that client. One dollar per hour doesn't make sense to me, unless a person is doing it as a contribution instead of money or some other donation. If this topic of being paid per hour, not per page, has been run through before and the consensus is that, for indexers, it's not the way to go, excuse this message that brings it back. And thanks for the anecdotes, suggestions, and information. See you later. Jackie West ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:45:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Indexer's duties Heather wrote: >In general, I'd say that editors are more grateful when I notice a >content error than when I notice a mechanical error of some sort. By the >indexing stage, the latter type of error is often deemed not worth fixing >(till the next print run); the former may be a "Thank goodness you noticed >that! We _must_ fix it" type of error. Because I don't want to have to decide on the fly what's mechanical and what isn't, what the editor is going to care about and what she (usually a she) isn't, I send the whole darned list. For all I know, an editor might toss my list in the circular file--simply because the book is too far along in production to worry about grammar!--but most have said they want it. (That's academic publishers; can't speak for trade publishers.) I don't consider compiling a list of typos part of my job as an indexer--more like a nicety. If I can do something that doesn't take too much of my time, helps the editor or the author out, shows that I care about the book, etc., I do it, and I don't worry about whether it's part of the job description. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:45:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Query on preparation for project Cheryl wrote: >However, I am puzzled about one thing that several of you mentioned: marking >page ranges for sub-sections, illustrations, etc. before you start to index. > I must be missing something. If the pages are numbered already, what is the >point of noting page number ranges? I hope you will enlighten me! I don't know whether this is what others had in mind, but here's what I sometimes do (I don't always mark page ranges at all). Let's say you have a long chapter and sections within the chapter. Section 2, "How to Herd Cats," runs from p. 16 through p. 44. I would mark the page range next to the section heading on p. 16 so that when I sit down to key in entries, I minimize flipping through pages of the text looking for where sections end. Naturally, if the sections in your book are quite short, it won't be necessary to do that step. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:59:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: More on indexing rates At 09:53 AM 9/3/96 -0400, Lawrence wrote: >Getting less than $1.00 is even more "scarey" but that is what my only two >steady customers pay. One is a set rate of $200 per monograph (until last >year it was $150). The number of pages varies from about 180 to 220. The >other is an academic journal that pays $500 for the annual index. But the >journal has more than 700 indexable pages. Occasionally I get something that >pays a higher rate, and I'm very glad to get them, but I don't get that many >other books beyond my two steady customers. I think Lawrence has added a really vital note to our discussion: Sometimes, clients tell us how much they can spend on a project, and that's it. No dickering. I have a number of copyediting clients who quote a specific hourly rate to me. That's as far as their budgets will stretch. When their budgets go up, they pay me more. And I *have* heard of certain publishers that put caps on how much they'll pay for indexing projects. The cap your clients give you is pretty low, Lawrence. All I can say is that I hope you will indeed find other clients who'll appreciate your work and pay you what you're worth. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:06:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Pricing per hour I've been off index-l for quite awhile, so I don't know if pricing by the hour has been discussed lately. If it hasn't, I'd love to hear more. I charge by the indexable page. Why? Well, that way, the client and I both know exactly how much the project will cost. I can usually judge what the fair per-page price of a project is, *if*, of course, I've got some truly representative pages to look at. Lots of times, when I first work for a client, I index a lot more slowly. I'm not yet used to that client's style. I don't want to make the client pay for my learning curve, as it were. In some subject areas, I could probably hazard a guess as to how long it'd take me to index a book of x number of pages. But in other subject areas, gosh, I don't know if I could. However, I'm certainly open to the idea of per-hour pricing. And I know I'm set in my ways about the per-page pricing. ;) I'd love to hear more, if you folks want to discuss the topic on the list. If it's been on the list recently, please feel free to drop me a note privately. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:15:32 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: Rates again! Despite what Lynn has said about the beginner's rate problem, I still consider it a dilemma that all beginners have to face. I've been indexing for only a year, and I thought it prudent to offer my first publisher a one-time discount, but I listed my regular rate in my letter also. We're sort of desperate to get our feet in the door, and when the luck catches up to us, we don't want to do anything to jeopardize it. Now that I've had some experience, thought, I think I would have done things a little differently. Although my regular rate for my first client (an academic press), was appropriate, simply because they wouldn't pay any more than $2.50, it was not a good idea to use that rate with a trade publisher. I got stuck with a $2.50/page rate with my first trade publisher for a whole year, even though my hourly rate hung out around $14, because of the complexity of the texts (history, biography, etc). I tried raising it once, but was turned down, and decided to stay with the publisher, because otherwise I'd have had no work at all. I did send them a nice letter in July and told them I needed to raise my rate because their texts were so dense, and I was doing fine detailed indexes on time (never late!). The managing editor went for it this time, so now I feel like I'm getting my due, more or less. The only other advice I'd give to beginners, which I did not remember to take myself, is to give a range of rates, and explain that the range will depend on the complexity of the text and the format (6x9 pages vs. 8.5x11, for instance). I've been fairly successful in negotiating higher rates when there is a short deadline, or the format is bigger than standard, but I've had to do it on a case by case basis. In the end, I have to agree with Lynn, that for the sake of your long term future, don't discount yourself today. Joanne Clendenen J_Clendenen@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:39:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: Indexer's duties It is amazing that we are discussing this now, because a book I am doing now has a reference to Felipe of Aragon marrying Isabella of Castile; well, that simply is not correct (it was Ferdinand, unless Isabella was fooling all of those historians all of those years), so I called the editor right away about it (the index isn't due for three more weeks) and he was delighted to hear from me, needless to say. >Heather wrote: >>In general, I'd say that editors are more grateful when I notice a >>content error than when I notice a mechanical error of some sort. By the >>indexing stage, the latter type of error is often deemed not worth fixing >>(till the next print run); the former may be a "Thank goodness you noticed >>that! We _must_ fix it" type of error. > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:51:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Rates In-Reply-To: <199609031458.HAA25836@mx3.u.washington.edu> My knee-jerk reaction is to be offended by a rate of $1/pg; but I do agree with Larry's comment below. With the page rate, It All Depends. I will quote an hourly rate (currently $27.50/hr) over the phone without seeing the material; but if somebody wants me to quote a per-page, per-entry, flat rate, or maximum charge, I have to see a sample first. The quote, no matter on what it's based, is going to approximate my hourly rate. Which means that the page rate could be anywhere from $2-$10/pg. And if the rate offered by a publisher is unacceptably low, I simply turn down the job. As to discussing rates online, neither Index-L nor the AOL indexing folders are the property or the official organs of ASI, and the fact that I happen to be an ASI member should not abridge my rights to state my opinion/practice as to rates. This is not price-fixing; it's information. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Larry Harrison wrote: > And as for whether $1 a page is a low rate, let me gently remind everyone > that a page rate is meaningless in the absence of information about the > nature of the book, page size, type of material, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:26:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Heather L. Ebbs" Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: Pricing per hour Hazel wrote, > However, I'm certainly open to the idea of per-hour pricing. And I know I'm > set in my ways about the per-page pricing. ;) I'd love to hear more, if > you folks want to discuss the topic on the list. I charge by the hour, but it would be easy enough to figure out a per page rate if any client ever asked for it. None has, and my indexing clients have included publishers of medical and other health care journals, trade publishers, government departments, kid's presses, university presses and publishers of high tech manuals. I have a fairly steep hourly rate, so I have told at least one potential client (a well-known trade publisher), in response to his request for my hourly rate, "Sorry, but I'm not going to tell you that because you'll think it's high. However, I can tell you that the final price will be reasonable." He seemed a bit surprised, but he accepted it. As soon as I had the page proofs in hand, I looked them over and gave him an estimate. I've done several books for him since. Heather Ebbs editink@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Rates again! Regarding rates: If you can index 6 pages in an hour (probably good for a scholarly monograph, but slow for some kinds of trade books) at $3.00 per page, for 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year, you'd gross $36,000 a year. Half of that will go to taxes, health insurance, social security/ self-employment taxes, overhead and paperwork, postage, etc. That leaves you $18,000 a year to live on. If you pay $1,000 a month for rent/mortgage, utilities, and food, you have $6,000 for clothes and vacations. You aren't going to live in a grand manner charging $3.00 per page unless you index very fast or live cheap. No wonder more indexers haven't passed that magical $50,000 net income point yet! (For those of you new to the list, last year we had a rather lengthy and heated discussion of the possibility of making $50,000 as an indexer.) Barbara and her $2.00 worth (inflation raised it from $.02) -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:23:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Per-hour vs. per-page vs. per-project Regarding method of payment, speaking as an editor, we've been told by the Human Resources folks that we are to deep-six the per-hour way of payment, primarily because of the IRS. Without getting into details (I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I have a hard time speaking legalese!), basically a per-hour freelancer puts that person potentially closer to being considered an employee in the eyes of the IRS (with implications for benefits, overtime, unemployment payments -- don't laugh, it has happened!). We are to pay a person for the work on the project, not for the time, per se. From what I know, the IRS is looking more closely at a company's independent contractor relationships. They've published a list of 20 items that help determine how close an independent contractor is to being considered an employee in the eyes of the IRS (a few of the freelancers I've worked with have this pamphlet, so I know it's an issue not just with publishers). We ask freelancers to bid on a project. Once we agree on a fee, it doesn't matter to me whether it takes him or her an hour, a week, a month, etc. -- as long as the schedule is met and the work is of acceptable quality. Did the freelancer hire others to do the work for him or her? Again, it doesn't matter, as long as good work is done on time. With indexers it's a little different. We do pay per-page (always have). But I see this as the same as per-project; you know how big the book is, you know what the subject matter and scope of the material is, and you "bid" on a per-page basis. I haven't run into any problems with this scheme, and have even left open the possibility of an above-and-beyond payment if something out of the blue surfaces or we ask the indexer to do something that wasn't expected and, therefore, wasn't covered in the contract. In short, pay the indexers fairly, give them adequate leeway where possible (and in these days of email and fax machines and what not, leeway is probably a little more liberal than ever before), and be there to answer questions, and the relationship should w ork for both sides. Larry Baker Gale Research larry_baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:45:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: pricing for indexing In a message dated 96-09-03 10:50:20 EDT, you write: > I'm > wondering if charging for quality indexing PER HOUR isn't the way to > go? I'm treading hesitantly here, since I haven't had the same experiences > that folks are talking about, but I recognize a wealth of skills is > needed to produce a first-class index, including study, thinking, > research...more...to be the quality indexer that you're offering to > that client. 3/4 of my projects are paid by the hour, simply because most of my clients cannot provide me with set and unchanging galleys. (Oh, the software industry.... sigh!) The content is often changing, even after I have indexed it, and I must reindex many pages or at least check them for content changes. Antoher situation where per-hour is necessary is for embedding indexing codes into files, because you cannot predict what will happen. Often the files are not available when you need them, often there are technical issues to be resolved, and often your indexing codes get corrupted when other people work on the files later. So there is troubleshooting time involved. Online indexing for Help files is always hourly, as you cannot predict the length or depth of each screen, and often the client doesn't know how many screens are involved. I find hourly more realistic in these situations, and most times there is a set amount above which the project cannot go without renegotiation, so that the client also knows the limits of what will be paid. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:12:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Pricing per hour I also bill on the basis of a unit rate--per entry. I like that the entries are quantifiably for me and my clients. This allow consistent billing. Otherwise, I would charge varying rates per page, with complicated projects charged at more per page. I believe that my per-entry process automatically incorporates this. Naturally, when a customer presents a project and will only pay a flat fee, I evaluate such projects individually and bill as desired by the client. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com http://www.electriciti.com:80/~prider/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: pricing for indexing Jackie, You asked about per-hour fees for indexing. I have some clients who pay per hour (they insist on it). It works out well, but I must tell you it is not the norm in the industry. Those clients who do that are professional scientific organizations rather than traditional publishing houses. I guess that way the pay scale for indexers can be put in context with those for technical writers. It makes sense. As for the $1/page rate one that some of our colleages are accepting, that is outlandish for professional work! As professionals, we all need to have standards, and to work for cheap pay that probably cashes out to below minimum wage doesn't make sense for college educated professionals doing intellectual analysis. NO! It makes a case for doing your market research and pricing studies, building a client base, and refusing to work for slave wages. We have all had to start someplace, and I did that too. I took less well-paying jobs to get a foot in the door. But taking jobs at lower than desired wages as a beginner isn't the same as permitting an employer to ridiculously undervalue work to the extent of paying $1/page -- unless it is a cookbook that takes 3.5 hours to put together. Assuming, as in Lawrence's case, that the work demands more of the indexer than that, then it is necessary to put your foot down and insist (yes, insist!) that it requires more than that to do the job. After all, we have the skill that these people want. To bottom line is that as long as there are beginners who are willing to work for $1/page fees, the publishers will continue to undervalue and underpay indexers at all levels. If one is going to work in a professional field, one must, yes MUST, have the attitude of a professional and expect and require a professional payscale. This attitude must be conveyed to our clients if we want them to look at us as professionals, and not clerical help, which, unfortunately, is not an uncommon attitude. We do more than compile data. We analyze, think, and "write" the index. We are creative professionals. We must portray the image, act the part, and be certain we let it be known that we expect to be paid that way. I hope those of you who are working for sub-standard wages will try hard to get other, better-paying clients, and not stay at a low pay scale for long. You deserve better than that, and shouldn't settle for that. It's bad for you, and bad for the professiona. There are better clients for you out there -- be aggressive in your marketing and look for them! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:18:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Per-hour vs. per-page vs. per-project Carolyn made a good point when she mentioned quoting a price range on a project if sight unseen, rather than a form per-page rate, and then being stuck with it. That is excellent advice, and something that I am working at incorporating into my dealings with clients. When asked what my rates are by a new client, I am now quoting a range, amending the statement with "It is better to see a few pages of a job, or a sample chapter, before deciding on a rate. There are a lot of variables that do into this figure for me." Sometimes a discussion of this follows, and I feel the publisher has gotten some good education. Most often what happens is that I accept a job based on a fee range, and we decide to finalize the rate after I see the material. That is acceptable, in most cases. And, just to mention a sticky wicket .... I have, on occasion, made a mistake with a page rate, and found that the book was very intensely, densely indexed, and this wasn't mentioned by the publisher in our discussions, or even thought of. In fact, it recently happened to me with an old client. The price per page was ridiculously low based on the estimate of the final number of entries in the index and the number of entries per page I was generating. I did renegotiate the fee, and we arrived at a payment that was better than the original, although not wonderful. But the publisher understood. I don't always do this type of thing. I do believe that an agreement is an agreement, and sometimes I have to "eat" my mistakes. But just remember, it is an option. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:24:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Price-fixing At 09:31 AM 9/3/96 -0500, you wrote: >Well, Hazel, suppliers "discussing" rates/prices *is* different from buyers >discussing rates, and can be considered actionable. This was emphasized in >business law courses I took while working as a manager at a large >corporation. Well, Larry, a whole *lot* of things can be considered actionable. But the chance that they *will* ever be brought to court is minor. And with all due respect, business law courses do not give one a license to practice law. I think that, if you are truly concerned about this topic, you would need to hire an attorney whose specialty is antitrust and consult him or her. >While we may not feel big enough >to warrant IRS attention, tax-exempt organizations like ASI must walk on >eggs. Larry, this is index-l, a listserv. As far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, index-l's purpose is to discuss all facets of indexing. Index-l isn't an arm of ASI. In addition, ASI used to publish surveys of what indexers earn: by the page, by the hour, and by the entry. I hardly think such surveys are considered price-fixing. > Maybe you shouldn't be too quick to send in the payment for that >lapsed ASI membership. ;> Well, after a note like yours, I guess I *am* pleased that I haven't yet sent in my payment. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:38:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Indexer's duties At 11:39 AM 9/3/96 -0400, Cynthia wrote: >It is amazing that we are discussing this now, because a book I am doing now >has a reference to Felipe of Aragon marrying Isabella of Castile; well, that >simply is not correct (it was Ferdinand, unless Isabella was fooling all of >those historians all of those years), so I called the editor right away >about it (the index isn't due for three more weeks) and he was delighted to >hear from me, needless to say. As they say, GOOD CATCH !!!!! Way to go, Cynthia. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:50:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Price-fixing In a message dated 96-09-03 09:52:56 EDT, Hazel wrote: > Y'know, this subject has come up on copyediting-l, too. And I have some > questions about it. OK, I'm a nonpracticing (by choice) attorney, and I > *definitely* do not have any sort of specialty in antitrust matters, but I'm > wondering what's wrong with discussing what we charge. We're not fixing > prices; we'd be discussing them. Hazel, I agree with you 1000%!!!! I don't think there's anything wrong at all with discussing rates at all. Now, if unions like the Autoworkers can set wages for an entire industry, and I'm not at all recommending that we indexers do the same, I can't for the life of me see what is wrong in our discussing what should, at least, be reasonable minimums. How many times do we, as individuals, call around in comparison shopping for a particular service or product, do we find that most businesses charge within a given range? And, in the term "business", I'm including professionals. Why, even the insurance industry gives lip service to this with its concept of "reasonable and customary charges" for *professional* services. Sure, the inexorable laws of supply and demand have a lot to do with it, and, IMHO, there is enough demand for indexing that there is no need to give away one's services at the fire-sale rate of $1/page. After all, one certainly can't make a decent living as an indexer by charging $1/page, so the point can only be to try to establish a portfolio, which can be done quite honorably without devaluing our service by volunteering to index for nonprofits. It is *not* logical to establish a $1/page-clientele if one is at all serious about running an indexing business. (MH, I'm not trying to flame you or anything, and I hope I'm not sounding too harsh in making this point about an issue I'm downright rabid about. ;-D) > A number of my editor-clients have told me that they talk with editors at > other presses to find out what they're paying freelance indexers, editors, > and proofreaders. If that's not considered price-fixing, well, then why > shouldn't *we* be discussing the same thing? Indeed, it is a matter of survival! If our market collaborates on prices, we're, in part, dealing with what is essentially a monopsony (a single buyer in a market of multiple providers) in terms of rate-setting. (Yeah, an economist friend taught me that word when I tried to express that concept in a discussion of an unrelated issue. ;-D) I'm not at all questioning their basic right to do that, but the result is as much of a market distortion as its opposite, a monopoly. I'm not recommending an indexing monopoly of any sort, but in a dynamic free market there must be some sort of compensation mechanism, IMHO--i.e., discussing rates. (In fact, we couldn't even form a monopoly if we wanted to for the excellent reasons you gave in the portion of your post that I snipped. There is the additional reason of our being *free*lancers, free to set our own rates.) Now, last I heard, the First Amendment hasn't yet been repealed (despite ongoing attempts to undermine it), so we certainly still have the freedom to discuss this subject on Index-L as individuals, though it may be more problematic for organizations per se to do so. (Even then, I have some philosophical objections to anti-trust laws and their impact on First Amendment rights, free enterprise, etc. But that's a more appropriate thread for other venues on the 'Net. ;-D) > Why are we so afraid to talk about what we charge? > > Why are we so afraid to charge what we deserve to be paid? Good questions that deserve a lot of consideration! If all indexers were women, then a lot could be said in a probably tedious repetition of what has often been said about rates of pay for work for women, women's conditioned lack of assertiveness, etc. But that's not the case, IMHO, with the indexing community, which counts a lot of outstanding men in its membership. (I know that sentence could probably be worded better, but I've already made a career this morning of writing this message.) There's something else going on here, though I don't know quite what it is.This makes me think that perhaps the USDA course should include a section on assertiveness and self-esteem. ;-D > > Breathing heavily, she descends from her soapbox. And thanks for the opportunity to ascend mine again here in the indexing community's Hyde Park. > Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) > "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. > It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney There's little that can't be solved with a heavy application of chocolate. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:32:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Price-fixing Folks, It is my understanding that, while ASI cannot recommend rates, it can gather information about rates charged by its members, and make it available to its members, which is something many professional organizations do. But ... THAT is ASI, and THIS is INDEX-L. There is no relationship between ASI and the listserv. The listserv is not a function or arm of ASI. No way! So I don't see why we can't use INDEX-L as a forum to share this information. It seems to me that fear-based thinking is what keeps us all ignorant about prevailing rates, which is a legitimate professional issue. We are afraid of the price-fixing issue so we don't speak out publicly. We are afraid of losing clients to our peers, so we keep rate information close to our chests. The way I see it, as a group of professionals working in the same industry, it can only be to all our benefits to share this type of information in an open forum. We should keep newcomers informed, keep all of us who are active in the field aware of goings-on, and break the conspiracy of silence that has kept our rates down for lo these many years. It's time to break the silence and share information. There's strength in numbers. This type of sharing can only benefit all of us. The Lone Ranger mentality doesn't help any of us! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:36:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elspeth Pope Subject: Education Committee For the past year or so, the ASI Education Committee has focused on making available to chapters funds for professional development seminars. These are still available, but now that the responsibility for this committee has passed to me, I would welcome input from you. Would you send me (Ludgate@WLN.COM) your comments, suggestions, ideas, queries, etc. on how you view the role of ASI and this committee in assisting indexers.--Elspeth Pope ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:56:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: pricing for indexing In a message dated 96-09-03 15:48:35 EDT, you write: > As for the $1/page rate one that some of our colleages are accepting, that is > outlandish for professional work! As professionals, we all need to have > standards, and to work for cheap pay that probably cashes out to below > minimum wage doesn't make sense for college educated professionals doing > intellectual analysis. NO! so > strongly about this!> Janet, Yesssssssssssss!!!!! You have me standing and cheering here! Rant on, sister!!!! ;-D > > It makes a case for doing your market research and pricing studies, building > a client base, and refusing to work for slave wages. We have all had to > start someplace, and I did that too. I took less well-paying jobs to get a > foot in the door. But taking jobs at lower than desired wages as a beginner > isn't the same as permitting an employer to ridiculously undervalue work to > the extent of paying $1/page -- unless it is a cookbook that takes 3.5 hours > to put together. Assuming, as in Lawrence's case, that the work demands > more > of the indexer than that, then it is necessary to put your foot down and > insist (yes, insist!) that it requires more than that to do the job. After > all, we have the skill that these people want. > > To bottom line is that as long as there are beginners who are willing to > work > for $1/page fees, the publishers will continue to undervalue and underpay > indexers at all levels. If one is going to work in a professional field, > one > must, yes MUST, have the attitude of a professional and expect and require a > professional payscale. This attitude must be conveyed to our clients if we > want them to look at us as professionals, and not clerical help, which, > unfortunately, is not an uncommon attitude. We do more than compile data. > We analyze, think, and "write" the index. We are creative professionals. > We must portray the image, act the part, and be certain we let it be known > that we expect to be paid that way. Now, this is the antidote to the lack of self-esteem I alluded to in my response to Hazel's excellent posting--the realization that we are indeed professionals, not clerks or computer operators that merely press a key and let a computer do the work. Some may consider this a waste of bandwidth for having copied so much of what you said, but it needs to be said again, again, and again!!!!!! And you said it oh so eloquently!! A thousand thanks! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:56:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Price-fixing In a message dated 96-09-03 10:57:36 EDT, Larry wrote: > Well, Hazel, suppliers "discussing" rates/prices *is* different from buyers > discussing rates, and can be considered actionable. Now, Larry, please explain how it is right for milk producers to set a minimum price, below which individual dairies are prohibited by law(!!!!!!!!) from charging, totally independent of the law of supply and demand, and we freelance indexers can't even talk about reasonable and customary rates as individuals--not even speaking or acting as members of an organization? Something is really wrong with this picture if you are right, not that I think that the law is interpreted as strictly as you imply. No, I'm not an attorney, never took a law course, so I don't speak with any legal authority, just that of which I hope is common sense. I'm not accusing you in any way of lacking common sense, BTW. Just wondering if you're being a tad overcautious about this. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:19:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GVHatch@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Politically correct In this age of political correctness, I find myself with a small dilemma. Which term is considered most correct, polite, nonoffensive, etc. etc. etc. Senior Citizen or Elderly? I plan to list both with one cross referencing to the other, but can't decide which should be the main entry. I have the same dilemma with Hearing Impaired and Deaf but am leaning toward Hearing Impaired since not all with hearing impairments are deaf. . .I don't know. Would love input on either or both. Thanks for your help, Gaylene Hatch ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:10:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Per-hour vs. per-page vs. per-project At 02:18 PM 9/3/96 -0400, Janet wrote: >Carolyn made a good point when she mentioned quoting a price range on a >project if sight unseen, rather than a form per-page rate, and then being >stuck with it. That is excellent advice, and something that I am working at >incorporating into my dealings with clients. I think that Carolyn's and Janet's suggestion that indexers quote a price range on a sight-unseen project is absolutely superb. Lots of times, it's just not possible to get some representative chapters, let alone the whole MS, to peruse. Time's often simply too short. A client may do an excellent job of describing what the book's about, the depth of indexing needed, and the like, but there're still a lot of ifs out there. I also edit (and proofread, do research, translate, and write), and clients frequently ask how much I charge. I usually end up saying, "That depends." I *hate* to sound so iffy, but let's face it: Every MS is different. I edited a textbook for paralegals that was so astonishingly well written, it needed only a few light touches to get it into shape. And immediately thereafter, I edited another textbook for paralegals that needed much, much more work. So, I've tried to talk about "light edits," "medium edits," and "heavy edits or rewrites." But then I have to define *those* terms. So, I've simply begun giving a range. In indexing, I keep a per-page figure in mind. That's my base price. But again, I've often had to talk about a range of prices, "depending." BTW, I'm sorry I don't have the name of the person who wrote in about per-hour pay for embedded indexing and for software manuals. Of course you're absolutely right to charge by the hour! I guess I wasn't even *thinking* about embedded indexing. And as I've heard from those who specialize in software manuals, things keep changing and changing and changing and changing. There's really no *way* that you can charge by the page! >amending the statement with "It is better to see a few pages of a job, or a >sample chapter, before deciding on a rate. There are a lot of variables that >go into this figure for me." Sometimes a discussion of this follows, and I >feel the publisher has gotten some good education. I really think that one of our functions is to educate. After all, before we became indexers, how many of us knew where indexes came from? ;} Many editors with whom I've worked haven't indexed anything or haven't worked with a freelance indexer before. Good editors are eager to learn more. And the more someone knows about what we do, the better. An informed and knowledgeable editor is a terrific partner in the indexing process! As is an informed author. How many authors have you worked with who've come to you because they attempted to prepare their own indexes and decided they'd better hire a professional? Barbara Cohen has often written about the partnership of an author and an indexer. I worked with an ichthyologist on his book on endangered fish of Florida once. We both learned a *lot*! >And, just to mention a sticky wicket .... I have, on occasion, made a mistake >with a page rate, and found that the book was very intensely, densely >indexed, and this wasn't mentioned by the publisher in our discussions, or >even thought of. In fact, it recently happened to me with an old client. > The price per page was ridiculously low based on the estimate of the final >number of entries in the index and the number of entries per page I was >generating. I did renegotiate the fee, and we arrived at a payment that was >better than the original, although not wonderful. But the publisher >understood. I don't always do this type of thing. I do believe that an >agreement is an agreement, and sometimes I have to "eat" my mistakes. But >just remember, it is an option. I found this last paragraph extremely helpful. I've made mistakes with page rates, too. Yes, I've indexed a lot of books on German history, so yes, I figured that the book I'd received would be relatively easy to do. I even had the introductory chapter to look at. Well, the rest of the book was *far* denser than was the intro, and when I figured out my per-hour rate, it was appallingly low. I wish now that I'd attempted to renegotiate the fee. Thanks, Janet, for a really thought-provoking posting. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:12:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pricing per hour I often find the hourly rate offered by clients to be too low. These clients don't understand that hourly rate does not equal take-home pay. Or they are located in another part of the country, where, perhaps, the offered hourly rate is satisfactory. I generally tell them, no, the offered rate is too low, but I can work on a per page rate, or a per entry rate (which often more clearly reflects the amount of work involved). This usually works out fine. Marilyn Rowland Indexing and Writing Cape Cod, MA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:04:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: pricing for indexing >Assuming, as in Lawrence's case, that the work demands more >of the indexer than that, then it is necessary to put your foot >down and insist (yes, insist!) that it requires more than that >to do the job. After all, we have the skill that these people >want. I would love to issue ultimatums along this line. But not until I have someone at a higher rate to replace them. >I hope those of you who are working for sub-standard wages >will try hard to get other, better-paying clients, and not stay >at a low pay scale for long. You deserve better than that, and >shouldn't settle for that. It's bad for you, and bad for the >professiona. There are better clients for you out there >-- be aggressive in your marketing and look for them! I've been trying everything I can think of as well as suggestions noted on INDEX-L. And I've been trying to expand my customers since I began indexing in 1992. I have no problem in being aggressive in my marketing. I want better-paying clients. Just wish I had more success in getting them. Lawrence H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:13:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rates In a message dated 96-09-03 12:38:03 EDT, Carolyn wrote: > > As to discussing rates online, neither Index-L nor the AOL indexing > folders are the property or the official organs of ASI, and the fact > that I happen to be an ASI member should not abridge my rights to state my > opinion/practice as to rates. This is not price-fixing; it's information. > You're absolutely right, Carolyn! I truly admire your bravery and openess in posting your rates as this is information that needs to be exchanged in the indexing community, just as it is shared in other professional communities. Individual indexers are just as free to do with this information as they wish as we are, as individuals, to engage in Constitutionally-protected speech. So, taking up the First Amendment baton you so gloriously passed, here's my rate structure. Disclaimer: this information is published for informational purposes only, i.e., so that we can determine (as in "find out" vs. "set") what is customary and reasonable; and I am speaking solely for myself, not for any organization. I charge per indexable page, not per hour as Carolyn does. However, my indexable page rates are based on a projection of making at least $35-40/hr. I don't always make that, but, I feel my work is worth at least that. (Is this another gush of unmitigated gall? ;-D) Also, those rates allow me to make the business expenditures necessary to better serve clients' needs (purchase software upgrades to match their upgrades; pay for online accounts; professional development such as conferences, workshops, books; reference materials; etc.) So, for a book that I expect to crank 10-20 pages per hour, I charge $3.50-3.75/indexable page minimum. That's my absolute minimum, though in very unusual circumstances I've worked for $2.50/page (e.g., referrals from other indexers where the page rate was already carved in stone) or where a brand new potential client promises to pay more for future indexes. (And these promises have been kept.) Also, old clients are grandfathered in at my older rate of $3/page minimum. I also charge $3/page for texts that have huge sections of programming code. (I charge for code pages when I can because I've too often found myself having to read some of the actual code for one reason or another, but those books generally go pretty quickly.) For embedded indexing, my absolute minimum is $5/indexable page, though old clients are grandfathered at $4/page, but not for much longer. (However, Jan Wright made a great case for charging by the hour on embedded indexing projects, though I haven't been seriously burned yet.) All of this is negotiable and flexible, taking into account the difficulty of a project, favorite causes, etc. I've deducted hundreds of $$ from books containing large sections that were just not indexable except by very large page ranges (enormous tables where it's downright silly to index all of the row/column entries on individual pages). I don't believe in gouging clients, nor in charging for learning curve, etc. Plus, there are just some clients that you can't get to pay you what you deserve, but are at least within the absolute minimum. Whew! This was a psychologically significant event, but I feel it's something that needs to be done and I strongly encourage other indexers to step forward. There's always the risk that some ethically-challenged individuals will misuse of this information by purposely undercutting what some of us publish, but in the long run I feel that publishing our rates here will benefit all of us in the indexing community in that everyone involved will get a clearer idea of what is customary and reasonable. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:36:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jmc Company Subject: 8,000 titles of Educational Videos Catalog Any Library or School Interested in recieving our 8,000 Titles Educational & Informational Videos Catalog, please send $15.00 to: J.E. HILL MULTIMEDIA COMPANY 3202 BUCKEYE CT. AUGUSTA, GA. 30906 Also, Please E-Mail your name, mailing address, and phone number to: Jmccompany@aol.com Thank You ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:48:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Price-Fixing I have apologized privately to Hazel Blumberg-McKee, and I apologize sincerely to the members of the list for posting an insulting personal attack. My words conveyed meaning very far from that which I intended, but I realize that is not an excuse. Once again I was forcefully reminded, THINK TWICE, THEY CAN'T SEE YOUR EYES. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:04:25 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: THANKS! Re: help with names please I think I have replied privately with my thanks to all the many people from Index-l and Copyediting-l and Autocat who were kind enough to give me advice about choosing the "entry element" of the foreign names of various parliamentarians---Thai, Pakistani, Icelandic, Sri Lankan, etc.---in the book I am currently indexing. If I inadvertently left anyone unthanked, please accept my apologies. It's a cliche to say so, I suppose, but I'm immensely impressed by the promptitude and helpfulness of all the people who responded to my query, and am most grateful to you all. From Simon Cauchi, 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone & facsimile +64 7 854 9229 E-mail: cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wlively@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Politically correct It seems to me that regardless of the term you decide on you will need a cross reference from the other term. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:28:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Rates At 09:13 PM 9/3/96 -0400, Lynn wrote: >Whew! This was a psychologically significant event, but I feel it's something >that needs to be done and I strongly encourage other indexers to step >forward. There's always the risk that some ethically-challenged individuals >will misuse of this information by purposely undercutting what some of us >publish, but in the long run I feel that publishing our rates here will >benefit all of us in the indexing community in that everyone involved will >get a clearer idea of what is customary and reasonable. I think this was psychologically significant, too, Lynn. I wish I had something to add in terms of rates. I've been away from indexing for about a year, pursuing animals (pretty literally!), and I really don't know what the "going rates" are, so this discussion has been of enormous help to me. The publisher for which I'm currently working is paying me $3.50 per indexable page. As the editor told me--and I trust her because I've worked for this publisher in the past, and we've had a good working relationship--this is the standard rate for this particular publisher. I'm finding this a fair rate for this particular project. Some pages have oodles of references. Some pages have very few. It evens out. In the past, when I've had to bid on projects or when publishers have asked for my rates, I've more often than not had to say, "It depends." I really *do* need to see what a manuscript looks like before I can give a client a true price. I know that (and again, this is in years past) I have bid over $5 per page for projects that demanded more than one index, for example. And I completely agree with what Lynn and Janet and others have said: I do *not* believe in gouging my clients. I *do* believe in giving them an excellent, well-thought-out index. And that takes thought and effort and time. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:41:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Politically correct You must understand that to some readers the term politically correct is offensive and at best subject to a multitude of interpretations. At 07:19 PM 9/3/96 -0400, you wrote: >In this age of political correctness, I find myself with a small dilemma. > Which term is considered most correct, polite, nonoffensive, etc. etc. etc. > >Senior Citizen or Elderly? > I find Aging to be the most accurate, Yet both of the above are common terms, which is a strong criteria for cross referencing. >I plan to list both with one cross referencing to the other, but can't decide >which should be the main entry. > >I have the same dilemma with Hearing Impaired and Deaf but am leaning toward >Hearing Impaired since not all with hearing impairments are deaf. . .I don't >know. Would love input on either or both. > i edit and index lots of works on hearing impairment and deafness. Deafness (not the deaf) should be in an index when that's what discussesed and the more general Hearing impairment, when that is appropriate. A cross reference between the two is appropriate. >Thanks for your help, > >Gaylene Hatch > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com http://www.electriciti.com:80/~prider/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:48:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie-Lise Shams Subject: Re: Politically correct The choice of terms will depend on the subject of the book. If it is a medical book I would use Elderly or Aged (actually MeSH uses Aged) and not Senior Citizen as the main entry, but Senior Citizen may be more appropriate for a book dealing with social issues. Marie-Lise ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Marie-Lise Shams ^ ^ Information Specialist ^ ^ Consortium for International Earth ^ ^ Science Information Network (CIESIN) ^ ^ 2250 Pierce Road ^ ^ University Center Michigan 48710 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Phone: +1-517-797-2790 ^ ^ Fax: +1-517-797-2622 ^ ^ E-mail: mshams@ciesin.org ^ ^ URL: http://www.ciesin.org ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 GVHatch@AOL.COM wrote: > In this age of political correctness, I find myself with a small dilemma. > Which term is considered most correct, polite, nonoffensive, etc. etc. etc. > > Senior Citizen or Elderly? > > I plan to list both with one cross referencing to the other, but can't decide > which should be the main entry. > > I have the same dilemma with Hearing Impaired and Deaf but am leaning toward > Hearing Impaired since not all with hearing impairments are deaf. . .I don't > know. Would love input on either or both. > > Thanks for your help, > > Gaylene Hatch > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:49:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Rates Again From Lynn's recent posting: >So, for a book that I expect to crank 10-20 pages per hour, >I charge $3.50-3.75/indexable page minimum. That's my absolute minimum, >though in very unusual circumstances I've worked for $2.50/page (e.g., >referrals from other indexers where the page rate was already carved in >stone) or where a brand new potential client promises to pay more for future >indexes. (And these promises have been kept.) I, too, have worked for $2.50 per page. This rate has normally held for a number of small presses, nonprofits, and the like: presses that produce fascinating materials but that do not have the funds to spend more money. Yes, this may indeed end up being a "charitable cause," but this rate has been offset by higher rates that other publishers have been able to afford. (Again, I'm speaking about indexing over a year ago, so my rate scale may indeed be skewed.) > All >of this is negotiable and flexible I think that this statement is extremely important. Nothing is written in stone! We are professionals, AND we run a business. Nothing shameful about that. (For those of you who have pets: Think of your veterinarian, who's a professional and who runs a small business with an enormous overhead.) Negotiation is an important skill that we must learn and polish. I know that, in the past, I have worked with clients within their budget until we could both arrive at a mutually agreeable rate of payment. > I've deducted hundreds of $$ from books >containing large sections that were just not indexable except by very large >page ranges I have done this, also. As in Lynn's example, enormous tables come to mind. In one long book that I indexed, the editor had specific requests about material that should be omitted from one of the indexes (the book was a multi-index one). I therefore did not charge for this material. > I don't believe in gouging clients, >nor in charging for learning curve, etc. A computer hardware manufacturer hired me to index some very complicated--at least to me--manuals. I told the editor that I really knew little about hardware and offered to test-index several chapters and ship them to the editor asap. The editor then passed the index on to a field engineer for comments. I was delighted that the field engineer found little to change! But the manual, though complicated, had been extremely well written and beautifully organized, which made my task much, much easier. I assuredly didn't charge for my learning curve! And I got a number of projects from that publisher. > Plus, there are just some clients >that you can't get to pay you what you deserve, but are at least within the >absolute minimum. Yep, this is indeed true. And sometimes there are clients who simply can't pay what you deserve, but who make up for this in other ways. One client could not pay me within the thirty days that I request--that info is on the bottom of my bills, and I talk with the client about my thirty-day-payment request when we're first discussing a project. My bill had to go through some incredibly complicated payment procedure. So, the client had me add on my finance charge (18% per year) at the outset, as she knew that it'd take longer for me to get paid. Once, when I was indexing for her, I thought that the book I was working on truly deserved two indexes. We discussed this, and she agreed. It didn't take me much time to prepare the second index. And I was delighted when I received my check to discover that the editor had managed to yank more money out of some account and pay me a significant bit more for having provided a second index. Again, thank you, Lynn, for sharing your rates. I think they provide an excellent source of information for all of us. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:14:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Senior citizen? I've inadvertently deleted the original posting, and I *thought* I'd sent a message about the "senior citizen" issue to index-l. However, I think my message evaporated somewhere in Eudoraland. If this is a repeat posting, I apologize! 1. Which term gets used most frequently in the book you're indexing? I'd probably go with that term. 2. Which term does the editor or author prefer that you use? You might want to contact him or her on this matter. Different audiences will require different terminology. For example, a few years ago, I indexed an anthropology book called _The Elderly as Modern Pioneers_. Based on the "terms of art" found in this book, I ended up with these headings: Dependent elderly persons Elerly persons Old, defined Old age, defined Oldest-old persons Old-old persons Young-old persons I made cross-references from various synonymous terms. How's that for another "It depends" situation? ;) Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:05:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Heather L. Ebbs" Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: Politically correct Gaylene Hatch asked about senior citizen and elderly. The preferred term today is seniors (not senior citizens). Elderly is not used because it has implications of frailty, which may be true for older seniors, but is seldom true today for seniors in their 60s and 70s. But it depends on your document, of course, and what the author is talking about. And, yes, I'd do a cross. FWIW Heather Ebbs editink@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:39:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leah Prescott My apologies if this has recently been answered, but could someone please send me information about how to register for the USDA indexing course? Thanks, Leah Prescott, Information Technologies Librarian Mystic Seaport leah@mystic.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:42:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rates To add to the information at hand already, I find that the norm is around $3/page, but there are still many, many publishers out there who say their standard rate if $2 and $2.50. Too many of them! And some who still pay less than $2/page, which to me is incredible! Personally, I won't work for less than $3/page. I prefer to hand those jobs off to someone who is happier with that rate. I will refer, or I won't take the job. My rates have varied from $3/page to $6 on a recent encyclopedia project. This project was on a medical encyclopedia with an oversized page. The total page count was over 2,000, and the bulk of the index -- it's sheer size -- was a factor here too, plus a tight and shrinking timeline on highly technical material. I earned every bit of that $6/page! I find that social science publishers pay the worst. Their material is very interesting, and I sometimes take jobs from one of my favorites just for that reason -- the topic is interesting and/or challenging. But it's like a charity job, a favor to them *and* to me. Medical publisher vary a lot in their rates, and don't always pay well, but some do. In that industry, they also like to pay on a per entry basis, rather than per page. That's fine, as those pages that generate huge numbers of entries also generate more money for the indexer. That's very fair, in that case. Some factors that enter into a rate: * size of page -- I've worked on oversized, coffeetable sized books, and have worked on some that are meant to be slipped into a shirt pocket. The amount of text on the page makes a big difference. * how pages are counted -- One client, a scientific publisher, who paid waaay too low, knew it, but said her hands were tied. She paid, though, on the basis of a total page count, rather than per indexable page. When all was said and done, my total pay was upped by about 75 cents per page using this tactic. It was her idea, too -- to compensate for the ridiculously low rate. * the timeline -- A book for which an indexer produces a good index in record turnaround time, less than the ordinary 2 weeks from receipt of proof, one that is taken on at the last minute when the publisher is panic-stricken, will usually carry a bonus built into the fee structure. An emergency of high proportions can be the basis for a "rush fee." * is the rate for a subject index only, or subject index plus separate author index. This immediately ups the amount of work you have to do, lowering the rate. So when negotiating a fee, you need to ask questions -- what is the page size, how do you count pages (new client only), and what is the timeline. These, to me, are part of every conversation with a client. Hope this all helps, adds to the info at hand, is thought-provoking, and restores the information-gathering and -sharing attitude among us all. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:49:49 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Price-Fixing Notice: Janet Perlman (in a private e-mail) mentioned that she misunderstood my posting to mean that I condone $3.00 per page as a reasonable price. Let me restate my point: You must charge AT LEAST $3.00 a page or some equivalent thereof, if you hope to make a living at least as lucrative as working at McDonalds, Hardees, Wendy's, or Burger King. (If your $3.00 per page is based on indexing 6-10 pages per hour and you work 2,000 hours a year, you are still making a very low salary, in my opinion.) Rest assured that I do NOT condone indexers making less than any other comparable professional makes, and I have never seen the problem with our achieving $50,000 or more a year--provided you have good clients who pay good wages. Indexers fall outside any published categories for standard professional fields, according to my banker (when they were checking my income and expenses for a loan). So I suggested looking at librarians, editors, and publishing consultants. My banker found my income to fall within the guidelines for professionals in these fields. What I hope will be my final statement about this: Ti reiterate what I said last year about incoome.... How much a person makes and how they spend their income depends as much on geography and temperament as on ability and opportunity. In my opinion, no one should pass judgment on another person's choices, and I dislike to see us passing judgment on each other about working for so-called substandard wages. Let's all work toward raising our clients' consciousnesses about what a living wage is and not attack each other. Barbara (apologies for my typos... I haven't finished my first cup of tea this morning yet) -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Politically correct Aging is not the same as "Elderly" or "Senior citizen" IMHO. One denotes the process, the other refers to the people being acted upon by the aging process. In an index on rights or health issues for the elderly/senior citizens, I would expect that entries might appear under "Aging" and under "Elderly/Senior citizens." In my experience, it is best to select the term favored by the author (in title, headings, etc.) as the most reasonable term a user of the book would look up, with a cross-reference from the other term. In a recent index prepared by my most recent trainee, the division of terms for age categories was a very sticky issue... just where should one put "adult children of senior citizens" versus "teenage children" versus "infant children"--all of which were highly specialized distinctions made in this massive (660 page) book--with lots of overlapping use of terms by the various authors. We took to charting things out and making clear distinctions between all age sets of all family roles) and the index had many separate categories for what we imagined in most indexes would have been lumped together. In other words, it is difficult to rely on an absolute rule about such things, but I do try to keep "processes" separate from agents or actors. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:20:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Politically correct In *Guidelines for Bias-Free Writing* (Schwartz and Assoc of Am Univ Presses Task Force, 1995), p.88 yields: The term 'older person' is now gnerally preferred to 'elder' and 'elderly person' in referring to an individual past middle age, or the period of life from about 40-60. 'Elders may, of course, be used in contexts invokig the positive connotations of the term (e.g., "The matter was submitted to the community elders for decison"). Although 'senior' and 'senior citizen' are also accepted, their greater age specifictiy (65 or older) makes them unsuitable in some contexts. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:24:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unpacking books >>And good luck with unpacking your books. We moved into our present house over 1 1/2 years ago, and our books STILL aren't all unpacked. My husband's building floor-to-ceiling bookshelves in the living room, and they take up an entire wall. I can't wait until they're done! We may actually see some of our books again! To: Helen S. & Hazel B. Nice to know we're not the only book-hoarders! My husband and I moved a few months ago and in the process discovered that neither one of us had _ever_ gotten rid of any books. We moved some 65+ boxes of books--fortunately we've no shortage of bookshelves in our new abode. Now, if he would just let me alphabetize the books on the shelves in his den... Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus (and lover of plup-fluff novels) tahudoba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:26:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Rates and rants I get INDEX-L in digest mode. After wading through the digest I received this morning, I can't resist making a few comments on the current discussions concerning rates for indexing. I hope all new indexers will save Lynn Moncrief's "semi-annual rant" and refer to it as often as necessary to remind themselves that anyone who undercharges for indexing services is doing themselves and the entire profession a huge disservice. I'd also suggest that new indexers save Joanne Clendenen's posting about the consequences of charging too little and Barbara Cohen's down-to-earth advice on expenses and lifestyle considerations. So ... is $1.00 per page undercharging? I agree with Larry Harrison and Carolyn Weaver: It All Depends. IMHO, if the indexer is capable of indexing, say, 30+ pages/hour (just a figure I pulled out of the air folks ... do not accuse me of price fixing) and producing a *quality* index, then that rate may not be so ridiculous ... but, IMHO, that's an unlikely scenario (unless we're talking about a project like the cookbook index Larry Harrison mentioned). On the other hand, if the indexer is working for less than minimum wage, that's a whole other story ... and, like others on this list, I cringe when I hear those stories. I agree with Hazel (BTW, welcome back, Hazel!) that it's important for us to discuss our rates. That's why I'm on ASI's Salary Survey committee. It's also why I have participated in salary surveys conducted by other profesional organizations, such as the Society for Technical Communication (STC). Like Jan Wright and Janet Perlman, I also have some clients who pay an hourly rate; that's their policy and, usually, there's a good reason for it. However, if I feel their hourly rate is too low based upon the amount of work involved and if the client is unwilling to pay an acceptable rate, I simply decline the job. Janet's sage advice about quoting a range (whether you're quoting a page rate or an hourly rate) and not setting a firm rate until after you've reviewed a few pages or a sample chapter is excellent. I know I'm the only one who learned that lesson the hard way by quoting a rate over the phone when a client underestimated the complexity of the text and the density of index entries. Like Janet, I ate my mistake ... and I vowed not to make the same mistake again. Another tip for new indexers: Save Janet's posting, Re: Price Fixing, too, and keep it handy for future reference. In fact, if Lynn and Janet will give me permission, I'd like to quote them in my indexing workshops. Lori ****************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:32:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Politically correct In a message dated 96-09-03 21:14:54 EDT, you write: << I have the same dilemma with Hearing Impaired and Deaf but am leaning toward Hearing Impaired since not all with hearing impairments are deaf. . .I don't know. Would love input on either or both. >> I know of a deaf woman who insists on being called Deaf, not hearing impaired; but she *is* deaf, not just hearing impaired. By the same token, I recently heard an American Indian address this same topic. She said that she thinks they should be called American Indians instead of Native Americans, since anyone born in America is a Native American. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:33:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: USDA course At 09:39 AM 9/4/96 -0400, Leah wrote: >could someone please >send me information about how to register for the USDA indexing course? The USDA offers two indexing courses: Basic Indexing and Applied Indexing. You can contact the USDA Graduate School Correspondence Program via e-mail: correspond@grad.usda.gov You can also call the folks there at 202-720-7123, or send a fax to 202-720-3603. The snailmail address is USDA Graduate School Correspondence Program Ag Box 9911 Room 1112, South Agriculture Building 14th Street and Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20250-9911 Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:50:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Price-fixing There is a survey in the works on work habits/rates actually charged etc. Unfortunately the ones of us who are on the committee are still working on it. Our schedules have been impossible lately. Hopefully there will be something for the board to look at by the November board meeting. This survey will only report what is current practice and will be no attempt to "set" rates. Janet you are correct in saying that Index-L is separate from the ASI. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:32:53 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: unpacking books Gee, I wish my husband would build more bookshelves. Maybe when we paint the office.... We have lots of books, but I would make one suggestion to the hoarders in the indexing world: If you don't use them in 5 or 10 years, think about giving them to the local library. Our poor libraries are suffering from funding cuts, and if it weren't for them, we might never have fallen in love with books when we were children. Besides, many of you who are or were librarians receiv(ed) you livelihood from libraries. Just a thought. Joanne Clendenen J_Clendenen@msn.com ---------- Gee e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:45:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: xwoods Subject: turning down jobs Thanks to those responses to my query last week regarding "whether there are many indexers who have turned down jobs because they feel they could not be objective enough." Somehow I was mysteriously auto-deleted from the list right after that, and I could not follow it up. This discussion on pricing is great. It is good to know that people care about pricing standards. I can see that $1/page would be another reason to turn down a job, as it could severely hamper one's objectivity toward that particular publisher! X Woods ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:31:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steve Johns Subject: indexing school newspapers ?? Roughly a week ago I posted a question to the list asking anyone who had been involved in indexing a school newspaper to comment on their experiences. Oddly enough, I did not receive one single response. Monitoring the list for two weeks leads me to belive it's mostly comprised of self-employed, work at home, indexer-for-hire types. So perhaps no one on the list has had this experience and I targeted the wrong list. I'm about to unsubscribe, but I'd like to make a final plea for commentary, please send to johns@rice.edu Thank you. Steven Johns Rice University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:44:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Sharing rates I also think it's very important for freelancers to discuss rates. I belong to the Freelance Editorial Association and they publish a list of recommended rates in every newsletter. In my indexing courses, I spend a good deal of time talking about how to maintain a home-based business, including how to charge. I agree with Barbara Cohen that you must look at not just what you make per page or per hour but per year after your expenses. It took me many years before I realized that $25/hr comes out to roughly $25,000/yr after you factor in expenses, benefits, and unpaid time. In scanning the 63 postings I downloaded this morning, I notice not many people mentioned their rates. When I work in the high-tech sector, I often charge by the hour: $45-$50, the same as experienced tech writers. By the page I charge $4-$7/page. In the publishing sector, the rates are lower, but I often get $5/p. Even when clients offer less they are frequently willing to negotiate. I was called about two jobs this month where the client usually paid $2.50/page and I was able to negotiate a rate of $3.60/p including many non-indexable pages and $4.00/p. I have 15 yrs of experience, so I specialize in high-end indexing. When clients want cheaper indexing, I recommend my former students who have less experience. I think there's room for a wide range of fees. I do not think this amounts to price-fixing, but I do hope that by sharing information, more indexers will try asking for higher fees. The worst the client will say is no and then you can accept a lower fee. I've never been fired for asking. Susan Holbert Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:03:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: donating unpacked books Yes, you could give the books to a library, but don't forget that if the libraries are experiencing funding cuts for materials, they may also not have the staff available to catalog gift books. Gift books usually cost the library more than one would think in terms of processing time. In addition, dated material in a library, especially in this day and age of instant information, doesn't really encourage users to use the library; for example, many studies of libraries in the developing world have shown that most of the gift books sent overseas are so out of date that the libraries continue to be as poorly utilized as before. Just my opinion. >We have lots of books, but I would make one suggestion to the hoarders in the >indexing world: If you don't use them in 5 or 10 years, think about giving >them to the local library. > >Just a thought. > >Joanne Clendenen >J_Clendenen@msn.com > >---------- >Gee >e > > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:36:38 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Pricing per hour (long, sorry) Far be it from me to tell anyone else what to charge--let alone to *fix* prices--just speaking as an individual, in no capacity as a representative of ASI or its members . . . (There, does that do it?) Anyway, I used to charge $30 an hour, but (like Hazel) I was constantly running into difficulty estimating the time the job would take. If the job ran way over what I'd estimated, I'd sometimes eat the cost. Nowadays, I charge a base rate of $3.50 per page for scholarly philosophy books and other books having similar conceptual demands or books that I expect to have heavy double- or triple-posting (e.g., art history books). I still charge an hourly rate (which varies with the client) for jobs that are more open-ended (i.e., I anticipate being asked to do more tasks than I bargained for), so I don't have to keep renegotiating the job as the client's visions become more grandiose. If a new client balks at my rate, I first try to talk up what the client will be getting for that price. Sometimes, I resort to this sort of bargaining: "You pay $2.00 a page? For $2.00 a page, I could give you A, B, and C, but we'd have to forego X, Y, and Z, which doesn't really do justice to this book." I think it's vital to tie the fee to the quality of the index and keep my value as an indexer constant. If none of that works, I *usually* turn down the job, because I have plenty of other clients who will pay my rate, and I don't want to fill up my calendar with low-paying projects. When I was just getting started, I charged a low-ish rate (but still in the ballpark), because I was scared I wouldn't get any clients otherwise; then I gradually raised my rates with those clients. I agree with what others have said about charging the going rate. The advice I often give to newbies is when you get to the point in your training when you think of yourself as a professional, charge a professional rate. When you turn in your first few indexes, assuming they are of professional quality, don't charge less simply because five years from now you would have done the indexing differently. I want to add one other reason for charging a professional rate, one that might sound really strange, but here goes: it's good for the client, too. If your fee is too low, you undermine the client's confidence in the indexes you produce (assuming the client knows what the going rate is). Think about it: if your electrician quoted you a rate of $10 and hour, you'd kind of wonder whether your house was gonna burn to the ground, right? You don't want your clients speculating about why your rates are lower than everybody else's. I really hope that newbies will take seriously our various rants about charging a professional rate. For me, this issue is less about exactly how much to charge (as someone just pointed out, it depends so much on the project) and more about professionalism. This is about indexing for a living (even if you're part-time) rather than indexing for pin money or to supplement your spouse's income. We indexers do something that requires significant specialized training, brains, and dedication--we are valuable to our clients. Larry Baker said: >basically a >per-hour freelancer puts that person potentially closer to being considered an >employee in the eyes of the IRS That is great information; I never once considered that aspect of it. Thanks Larry! And Lynn said: >Now, Larry, please explain how it is right for milk producers to set a >minimum price, below which individual dairies are prohibited by law(!!!!!!!!) >from charging, totally independent of the law of supply and demand, and we >freelance indexers can't even talk about reasonable and customary rates as >individuals Although I don't condone the double standard, please keep in mind that there's a big difference between what's right and what's legal. In this wild and wacky country we live in, certain industries and segments of the economy are tightly regulated and others aren't. We have to be careful about drawing analogies between, e.g., what milk producers may do and what indexers may do. I still agree with Lynn and others, though, that we should be able to discuss fees in this forum. And Hazel said: >I even >had the introductory chapter to look at. Well, the rest of the book was >*far* denser than was the intro, and when I figured out my per-hour rate, it >was appallingly low. I don't always ask for a sample, but when I do, I always ask for the intro plus a chapter somewhere in the middle of the book. Thanks, y'all, for this golden thread. Let's keep it up, so we can really find out what we so need to know. I'll end this long post with a humorous/sad tale: I have an indexer acquaintance who charges a low *hourly* rate, because--get this--the kinds of books she works on go very quickly. She needs a short lesson in mathematics, and I need to get back to work. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: donating unpacked books Although off the topic of indexing, this side discussion of donating books is still of interest because, I think, we are all booklovers, and probably all have too many books. Cynthia makes a good case for the high cost of processing donations. I never thought of that. I periodically donate unwanted books to local public libraries, but I always donate them to the Friends of the Library. The only thing I've ever brought right into the library itself is a copy of all the volumes of the MeSH thesaurus, used by medical catalogers. I called the reference librarian and she was thrilled to get it. By donating through the Friends, the volunteers process the books, put most of them out in the "for sale" corner that most of our public libraries here keep, giving the library only those books they feel would be useful to the library. They have assured me that there is communication back and forth so that the library benefits either by acquiring needed books, or from the funds raised by sale of books by the Friends. I feel good about doing it that way. Others might want to consider this alternative. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:07:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Patricia Buchanan Subject: Trans-border work I have a chance to index for an American publisher but he is worried about my not having an American social insurance number. He thinks the accounting department would not be able to issue a cheque without this number. I am a Canadian and live in Canada. Does anyone have any experience working "across the border" and the problems encountered with accounting departments and their rules? Would I be running into written or unwritten rules about hiring Americans first? If there were any American indexers available, would the company would have to hire them before a foreigner? (I prefer this term to alien - sounds extraterrestrial to me.) I admit that this problem never occurred to me. I would like to offer the editor a solution because the work is desirable. I would appreciate any suggestions or advice. Thanks in advance. Patricia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:28:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Donating unpacked books It's always depressing to read about the understaffing and underfunding of libraries. Didn't some sports figure say just the other day that a university team is far more important than thirty libraries? Hazel who lives in a town where football is god, monarch, and you name it and who used to live in a town where baseball was the same and who used to live in a town where basketball was the same and who went to college where ice hockey ruled Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:42:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: indexing school newspapers ?? Hi, Steve. I wanted to respond to your question with a couple pieces of information. >Roughly a week ago I posted a question to the list asking anyone >who had been involved in indexing a school newspaper to comment on their >experiences. I haven't ever indexed a school newspaper. I'm guessing that you haven't received any responses because nobody else has done so, either. Which by no means implies that you've found the incorrect forum. I think you're involved in a fascinating project, and I'll bet that lots of people would like to hear how you're doing the project. I know that *I* would. I'd hazard a guess that others on the list have indexed newspapers, though. I used to live in St. Paul, Minnesota. One of the reference librarians at the St. Paul Public Library was in charge of indexing the St. Paul paper. She worked on that project whenever she could. I wonder if she's still involved in the project, and if not, who is. How about asking the list if anyone's indexed regular newspapers or periodicals? That might help you. Also, you might think of sending e-mail to the American Society of Indexers. Not all ASI members are on index-l. Bonnie Parks-Davies runs ASI's administrative office. Perhaps she can search ASI's database and tell you which indexers do newspaper indexing. Or perhaps she can point you to articles on newspaper indexing that've appeared in *Key Words*, ASI's journal, or in *The Indexer*, the British Society of Indexers journal. ASI's e-mail address is asi@well.com Your experiences indexing a school newspaper would make a *fascinating* article for either journal, I think. >Monitoring the list for two weeks leads me to belive it's mostly comprised >of self-employed, work at home, indexer-for-hire types. So perhaps no >one on the list has had this experience and I targeted the wrong list. Well, I'm pretty sure that a number of freelancers do indeed index newspapers. I know that many index journals and magazines. Perhaps those who index journals and magazines would have advice for you. And a number of indexers on this list are in-house indexers. I'm not sure which group is better represented on index-l: the self-employed or the in-house indexer. > I'm about to unsubscribe Please don't do that! Give us another try! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. All best, Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:07:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: donating unpacked books I donate both books and magazines to our local library on a regular basis. They have been very happy to take both, and do not always keep them for cataloguing. They also sell them at Friend of the Library benefits. They don't like periodicals that are too old, so I collect everything every three to six months and bring it over. Many of the books are fiction, and so are not "dated." In fact, the county libraries have been expanding and acquiring new and bigger buildings. There are some new, relatively empty libraries around here. I think they are grateful for the books. On the other hand, a few years ago, I couldn't give away an out-of-date encyclopedia set:). I think it depends on what you've got to give. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:47:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: donating unpacked books >Yes, you could give the books to a library, but don't forget that if the >libraries are experiencing funding cuts for materials, When I donated books to my library they groaned, but when I said I didn't mind if they put them in their annual book sale they were delighted. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:01:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: indexing school newspapers ?? In-Reply-To: <199609041837.LAA22523@mx5.u.washington.edu> I think you're right about the composition of this list, tho there are quite a few lurkers who are publishers, database indexers, etc.; but predominantly we're freelancers (or aspiring indexers) of books & journals. Newspaper indexing is very specialized, and indexing a school paper is more apt to be a labor of love (or a librarian) than something one is paid to do. There are a number of books on newspaper indexing that I ran across a couple of years ago while deciding whether or not to bid on a newspaper indexing job, and there is also some journal literature on the topic; so I suggest checking the library if nobody provides online help. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Steve Johns wrote: > Roughly a week ago I posted a question to the list asking anyone > who had been involved in indexing a school newspaper to comment on their > experiences. Oddly enough, I did not receive one single response. > Monitoring the list for two weeks leads me to belive it's mostly comprised > of self-employed, work at home, indexer-for-hire types. So perhaps no > one on the list has had this experience and I targeted the wrong list. > > I'm about to unsubscribe, but I'd like to make a final plea for > commentary, please send to johns@rice.edu Thank you. > > Steven Johns > Rice University > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GVHatch@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Senior citizen? I guess I should remember to give enough information about my material :) I'm working on a handbook for a charitable organization. This book will be used by people looking up support groups, financial aid, etc. We are developing a thesaurus and have hit this dilemma mainly because one group that might use this book would tend to use elderly and the other would tend to use senior citizen. Both will be listed, I've just been unsure as to which one would be the main heading and which one would be cross-referenced back. Because of space constraints, they don't want to just post the information under both. Does that change anything??? Thanks again, Gaylene Hatch ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:11:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rates and rants In a message dated 96-09-04 10:31:58 EDT, Lori wrote: > > Another tip for new indexers: Save Janet's posting, Re: Price Fixing, too, > and > keep it handy for future reference. In fact, if Lynn and Janet will give me > permission, I'd like to quote them in my indexing workshops. > Lori, Wow, you mean my "semi-annual rant" is now being elevated to being a quoteworthy source in your wonderful workshops?! Thanks for the implied compliment! You indeed have my permission to quote from it. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:12:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rates Janet, Your list of factors that enter into setting rates is absolutely stellar!! Not only will indexers (especially new indexers who may find the process mystifying) find it a handy rule of thumb, but I'm sure that publishers, authors, etc. will also find it helpful in understanding why we may charge more for particular projects. This could easily be the nexus of a handout, article, or some other instructive material. Way to go!!!! :-D BTW, that bit about double-column, coffee table books is a biggie with me. In the space of one month, I've had three of those land in my lap unsuspectingly (even the publishers of two of them didn't know of the format in advance) which really wrecked havoc with my scheduling as I ended up with nearly double the amount of work (aside from the fact that I ended up undercharging). Another indexer even did this to me without warning when he asked me to take a book off his hands, telling me he was sending me a 500 pager (of very difficult material) which ended up being the equivalent of at least 700 pp. (If reads this list, he knows who he is. ;-D) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing In a message dated 96-09-04 09:45:14 EDT, Janet wrote: > Some factors that enter into a rate: > * size of page -- I've worked on oversized, coffeetable sized books, and > have > worked > on some that are meant to be slipped into a shirt pocket. The amount > of > text > on the page makes a big difference. > * how pages are counted -- One client, a scientific publisher, who paid > waaay > too > low, knew it, but said her hands were tied. She paid, though, on the > basis of a > total page count, rather than per indexable page. When all was said > and > done, > my total pay was upped by about 75 cents per page using this tactic. > It > was > her idea, too -- to compensate for the ridiculously low rate. > * the timeline -- A book for which an indexer produces a good index in > record > turnaround time, less than the ordinary 2 weeks from receipt of proof, > one that is > taken on at the last minute when the publisher is panic-stricken, will > usually > carry a bonus built into the fee structure. An emergency of high > proportions can > be the basis for a "rush fee." > * is the rate for a subject index only, or subject index plus separate > author index. > This immediately ups the amount of work you have to do, lowering the > rate. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:12:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unpacking books In a message dated 96-09-04 10:29:26 EDT, Hazel or Helen (sorry) wrote: > >>And good luck with unpacking your books. We moved into our > present house over 1 1/2 years ago, and our books STILL aren't all unpacked. > > My husband's building floor-to-ceiling bookshelves in the living room, and > they take up an entire wall. I can't wait until they're done! We may > actually see some of our books again! When my husband and I were newlyweds, 15 yrs ago, we moved from Illinois to Florida, towing a big U-Haul trailer containing no furniture, a few dishes, etc., but chock full of books. (Just to show you what our early spending priorities were.) When we moved from Florida to Italy, the military refused to ship our ersatz bookshelves of cinder blocks and 2 by 4's, calling them building materials! Fortunately in Italy, we moved into a villa containing a long hallway lined with built-in floor-to ceiling cabinets (which still didn't hold all our books). When we moved back to the States from Italy after 7 yrs of marriage, we shipped back 40 cartons of books with our household goods, then acquired so many more in the six weeks we visited on the East coast that Amtrak charged us overweight for shipping them with us to California. We've acquired so many books over the years that when we moved last spring into the house where we're living now, we set aside an entire room just for them, which we call the library, oddly enough. It took us weeks to move, mainly because of all the books! And we still can't unpack them all, even with book shelves on every wall!!!!!!! This isn't counting the book shelves in my office and built into one of the hallways, all full of books. Come to think of it, we could build two-story bookshelves, complete with ladders, scaffolding, and those long poles with pincers on the end, as the library has a vaulted ceiling. That may solve the problem for a few years. ;-D Joanne's suggestion about donating them to a library is a wonderful one, but it's just soooo hard to part with old friends (plus we'd have to rent a U-Haul), especially by true eccentrics like my husband and I who hoard almost everything, not just books. (Yes, we've even seriously discussed whether to save a piece of string! Maybe Prozac or joint therapy would help.) Of course, indexing made this even worse (or better) because there are all the books and page proofs. ;-D The onset of the computer age has only made things worse because there's all that information on the Net to be hoarded onto floppies or printed out. We still have floppies from the Commodore 64s (long gone) that we had in the early 80's, an old XT (given away long ago), an Amiga (which was also given away but somehow found its way back home), not to mention the two PCs we have. Instead of throwing stuff out or giving it away (except for old computers, oddly enough), we just keep moving to bigger houses and buying more shelves and storage thingies. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:50:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: donating unpacked books In a message dated 96-09-04 14:25:52 EDT, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >Yes, you could give the books to a library, but don't forget that if the >libraries are experiencing funding cuts for materials, they may also not >have the staff available to catalog gift books. Gift books usually cost the >library more than one would think in terms of processing time. By a strange coincidence, I am currently volunteering my time once a week to help process gift materials at my local library. They throw out hundreds of donated items such as old textbooks full of highlighting, falling-apart paperbacks, musty or warped volumes--BUT they do get a great many wonderful new novels, coffee-table books, cookbooks, handicraft books, etc. Current bestselling novels are a good thing to give your library. Our library system often has fifty or more copies of a particular bestselling book, and hundreds of holds. You know that in a few years they'll just throw away 90% of the copies of that bestseller and have to buy fifty copies of something else. My mother-in-law gave me a copy of Accordion Crimes by E. Annie Proulx, and unfortunately I hated it--this is not Dorothy's fault, as she is the very opposite of the MIL stereotype. It's going down to the library tonight. It will take a little bit of staff time to get it labeled and jacketed, but the "cataloging" is trivial--just adding a new holding. Ask at the reference desk about what circulates the most. You might get some surprises. Cookbooks are very widely used (confess it, if you cook at all you have too many cookbooks). My husband has an amazing collection of Spanish and Portuguese cookbooks, but most of them he checked out from the library and used for a while before deciding to purchase his own copies. Handicraft books (okay, maybe not macrame) can retain their value for a long time. One woman recently donated about ten books on needlepoint and pattern design to our library, and we were glad to get them. I agree entirely about not donating outdated material--toss the DOS 2.0 manuals! Compact discs are good donations, too, though usually they have enough resale value to be worth taking to a dealer. Libraries also appreciate getting videos of popular and classic films, if they're in good condition. Well, this is far enough off-topic for today, but I thought it was worth preaching about. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:38:21 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: The Ideal Index On another topic: Seth maislin and I had a great conversation today about what constitutes the ideal index, and I would love to hear YOUR thoughts about this. Seth maintains that given enough time and space, one could construct the perfect index (and that any good indexer would approximate this index given enough time and space). Conversely, I believe that it is fundamentally impossible to constract one ideal index, because of the limitations of any current paradigm/perspective/view of the information/text being indexed. Given that perceptions change over time, there will be any number of "correct" or "good" or "satisfactory" indexes to a body of text at any point in time or by any different indexers. So, what do you think? Are you a Michelangelo uncovering the index buried in the text, or you attempting to make sense of some text given the limitations of any one person's perceptual apparatus? Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia James Subject: Re: Politically correct I'm following this site for information purposes right now, so I'm not a pro, but I think that Senior Citizen is generally a more common term for most people, and (in my experience), the least offensive term to a lot of seniors. Elderly seems to be more suggestive of "old" in a negative sense to many seniors I know. However, depending on the type of material, I think either term would do. I don't understand the dilemma with Hearing Impaired and Deaf, since I don't think they're interchangeable. Somebody enlighten me, please. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:46:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Heather L. Ebbs" Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: Senior citizen? Gaylene wrote, > > I guess I should remember to give enough information about my material :) > I'm working on a handbook for a charitable organization. This book will be > used by people looking up support groups, financial aid, etc. We are > developing a thesaurus and have hit this dilemma mainly because one group > that might use this book would tend to use elderly and the other would tend > to use senior citizen. Both will be listed, I've just been unsure as to > which one would be the main heading and which one would be cross-referenced > back. Because of space constraints, they don't want to just post the > information under both. I'd say to use seniors (okay okay okay, senior citizen if you must) as the main heading, with a cross from elderly. I think that a person who prefers the term elderly is less likely to be offended by the term seniors than the reverse, because (to repeat my earlier post) elderly has implications of frailty. Heather Ebbs editink@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:43:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia James Subject: Re: Rates As someone who just took a publisher's proofreading test (no results yet) and who sees indexing in my future, I appreciate the discussion on rates. I think it serves the indexing business well in the long run if people like me have a better idea of what is reasonable to charge for my services so that I can start off with higher expectations and have a better chance of attracting clients willing to pay for quality work, instead of taking what I can get because I don't know any better. P. James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:58:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index Barbara, I can answer that from two points of view. Speaking theoretically, I would say there is no "perfect" index. I believe that the index is a creative work, and therefore there is no perfection, and therefore it is, and will, by definition, always be subjective. Ergo no perfection. From experience, here's an interesting experiment. When Lori Lathrop was working on her ASI book on the Internet, 3 of us read drafts and made suggestions. When it was close to final, we decided to each do an index, and compare them. Lori did an index of her own book, too. All 4 of us were experienced indexers, bringing many, many years of experience to bear. The book is relatively small and self-limiting. The indexes weren't long -- but how interesting to see the variation in length, treatment, subject headings, breakdowns, choices made, etc. No two were alike, and many had elements of one and of the other. All of which proved to me that everybody will do it differently, and there will never be a "perfect" index. I think the structure that emerges is in the context of the mind of the indexer. This is the creative process at work. One cannot make a formula, template, or design that will hold in all cases. Perfection in nature doesn't exist. My Humble Opinion. I look forward to others' comments. Thanks for an excellent discussion topic, Barbara! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:22:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index I'll start my thoughts off with a proposed definition (but I guess that's what the guidelines for the Wilson Award are). The ideal index allows all potential users of the index to find the information they are seeking quickly and easily, indexes all relevant information in the material being indexed, and directs the readers to additional appropriate material. Can one construct an "ideal" index? That assumes that there is AN ideal index to particular material. And that is an assumption I don't agree with. As an intellectual product, I think that indexes are a work of art. (They are, after all a form of writing.) Just as there is no perfect art, there are no perfect indexes. Just think of assigning Matisse, Picasso, Erti, Michaelangelo, Grandma Moses the task of painting an egg. Think of the different paintings you'd get just from that simple object. Would any one of those paintings be "perfect"? Nope, but they'd all be pretty darn good. Then there are all of the "point of view" issues. How do we define an ideal index? One for all times? The best for this time? If there is an ideal index for the worldview "now," it will not be the ideal index for another worldview. So does that make it not an ideal index at all? I'd love to have another two months to work on the index I just completed. It would certainly be better, more complete, more consistent. I think it's also like the asmptotic curve--always approaching a finite value, but never reaching it. No matter how long I work on an index I'll never get it "perfect." Ya gotta stop some time. Should we even strive for the ideal index? YES, all the time. After all, it's our search for the perfect, the ideal, that's the best part of our job. That's why we continue to seek to become better indexers, to attend conferences and workshops, to hone our skills, to become better artists. After all, you know, it's not the destination, it's the journey. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daveream@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index I think another aspect of there not being a perfect index is this: an index for whom? For all levels of audience, you'd have to include all lay terms for any terms of art for instance. This could make the index unwieldy for those educated in the field. This probably encompasses more than just adding lots of cross references: different choice of language in terms, different breakdowns of heading levels, etc. One could point to indexes being created for CD-ROMs as being a place that at least has "unlimited" space compared to paper. There are feelings among indexers that double, triple, and higher postings are appropriate and should be used to eliminate cross references (which are often present only to conserve space in a paper index). Of course most people don't scan CD indexes they search them and this brings up the issue of the software being used. How does it present hits for double postings? Can it reduce them to uniquely useful hits? How can it help the user in other ways that paper cannot? Actually, I kind of wonder how many indexers on the list have ever done an index exclusively for an electronic publication? (I don't mean database indexing, but back-of-the-rom indexing!) Dave ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:45:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: FAQ? How 'bout if we make Lynn's "rant" a FAQ? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:16:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: ideal index/rates I agree heartily that since an index is a creative product, there can be no ideal. The image of the egg painted by Michelangelo, Matisse, Grandma Moses, etc. is perfect. The experience of the four indexers who worked on Lori's Internet book also bore this out. I'm sure the ASI chapters who've gotten together and compared their prepared indexes to the same material discovered the same thing. Everyone thinks a little differently, uses language a little differently. As long as the user can find what he or she is looking for, the index "works." Elegance is an extension of creativity, and my "ideal" is to have the time to attain something close to that, but alas....so little time! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:55:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: Trans-border work In a message dated 96-09-04 18:31:28 EDT, Patricia Buchanan writes: >I have a chance to index for an American publisher but he is worried >about my not having an American social insurance number. He thinks >the accounting department would not be able to issue a cheque without >this number. Ask them how they pay their electric bill. That check wouldn't have anybody's Social Security number on it either. You could also suggest a string of zeroes or ones, but this might trigger an invalid reporting of income to our IRS, causing further difficulties. Actually, I am convinced that this problem is either a bee in the bonnet of your editor, or there's some stupid bug in their accounting program. Neither one is your problem. Just tell them you'd be glad to do the job, and how they pay you is up to them as long as you get your money and get it on time. If they can't deal with this--you don't want to work for them, IMHO. Can you tell I've been reading The Gospel According to Lynn Moncrief? ;D (unabashed stealing) Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:24:58 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: donating books As a former community college librarian, I can add a somewhat different slant. We didn't have a "friends" group so I had to look at and handle every donation. Runs of periodicals were recycled or given to the local VA hospital if appropriate. When the Gulf War was in full swing, we sent boxes of books we couldn't use (mostly paperbacks) to the military. I _loved_ getting cookbooks, hobby books, popular fiction, and so forth because we couldn't purchase these items. I _hated_ throwing books away so I explored other avenues which you may want to consider. In NC where I was located there were several Indian reservations. They were willing to take almost anything including old encyclopedias. The same was true for the state prison libraries. Other places which might accept donations are hospitals and nursing/convalescent homes. I directed periodical donations to the local women's shelter, credit bureau, employment office--any place people may spend time where there isn't a budget for this type of thing. The key? Always call to find out what is appropriate, when is the best time to drop it off, and whether the organization will give you a receipt (for tax purposes.) I worked hard at it and threw away very few books in six years. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:06:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: ideal index At 10:16 PM 9/4/96 -0700, Elinor wrote: > Elegance is an extension of creativity, >and my "ideal" is to have the time to attain something close to that, but >alas....so little time! Even if we had all the time in the world to work on an index, I'll bet we'd all continue to tinker on it! As an acquaintance put it: "I used to be a perfectionist. Now I'm working on being a *reformed* perfectionist." Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:11:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Trans-border work A number of years ago, I indexed a German book translated by an Australian professor and published in England. (Whew!) All I requested was that I get paid in U.S. dollars, rather than in English pounds. I didn't have any problems. Maybe this was a publisher that was more used to working with people from other countries. (I hate the term "aliens," too. Makes people sound like the killer tomatoes from outer space or something.) This "problem" does sound like a bee in somebody's bonnet. Why not talk with the editor again and tell him or her that you'll simply write "Canadian citizen" in the blank where the social security number should go? If there's *still* a problem, well, I guess the publisher is hoping you'll emigrate! ;)) Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:48:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pricing per hour (long, sorry) In a message dated 96-09-04 18:17:18 EDT, Carol wrote: << I really hope that newbies will take seriously our various rants about charging a professional rate. >> Amen sister! Amen to Lynn and Janet, too, and everyone else. I guess it's my turn to join the fray ... My current official rates start at $2/p or $.50/entry for author indexes; $3/p or $.60/entry for subject indexes; $3.5/p or $.60/entry for combined author & subject indexes. My rate for index editing is $35/hour. My consulting fees start at $60/hour. Notice this are all base rates. As others have said, these are all negotiable. For some clients for whom I've been indexing for years, there are grandfathered page rates that are lower. Also, as I know their material so well, I tend to fly through their books. For many others, the entry rate is the norm. Another important point: regardless of what my official rate is, my end hourly rate is a minimum of $30/hour, in fact, it is usually much higher, if not double or triple. Yes, I work fast (As some already know, I also type very fast. I consider my disability insurance as insurance for both my hands and my head.) and I provide high-quality professional services. For books, I vet pp before index entry. I do all my editing and indexing at the computer. I have been indexing professionally full-time as a freelancer for 6 years. Before that I worked in the office of another indexer both full-time and part-time for 3+ years. I work primarily on scholarly and medical books. And finally, yes, it is a little (understatement) scary to post my rates on a listserv. There are, what 700+ of you?! I feel like I'm standing here in my underwear or less. But I also realize that this is for the better for our industry. I have learned from others' experiences, and I am honored to be able to contribute to the discussion myself. I am thrilled to be able to support my family through the use of my brain in this way. I take pride in my work, and continually seek to improve the quality of my work. ... rant off, happy indexing and fair winds to all, L. Pilar Wyman (Pilar) Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:48:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index Dave, Barbara-- I recently finished a back-of-the-rom index, and will be doing several more for the same client. The product is a massive collection of images for high-school history classes. The one I just finished was Western Civilization. The next one will be American History, then World History. (cool stuff! everything from fighter bombers to Gallipolli to King Tut's tomb. can't wait for my portfolio copy heh heh heh) I worked closely with the client working out content specs, etc. One thing to keep in mind is that these products do come with search capabilities. Not only can the users search the product itself, but they can also search the index. References in the index are hot links, of course, to the images or video sequences or whatever is in the database. We settled on some double and triple posting, but also on a lot of cross-referencing. With the search capability, it's very easy for the user to hop around the index (no pp flipping, for example), and with ample cross-referencing they get to see what all the related material is, too. Is anyone from BNA on here? There was a presentation on CD-ROM indexing at BNA at one of the not-too past ASI conferences. There are others who do cd-rom too. Anyway, as too the 'ideal' index, hmmm. gotta think about that one. Just as there are a lot of ways to skin a cat, I think there are a lot of ways to index a book. Some things will definitely be the same in every index, at least in every quality index. But, as Elinor said, elegance is creative, and there are many ways to be elegant. humbly submitted, L. Pilar Wyman (Pilar) Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:48:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexing school newspapers ?? Hazel--good point to Steve. You jostled a bone in this drugged corpse-- Steve, do newsletters count?! If so, feel free to email me privately about your questions. L. Pilar Wyman (Pilar) Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:04:38 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: The Ideal Index Personally, I don't think there it is possible to construct an "ideal" index, no matter how much time, space, and money are involved. I thought Dave's comment "index for whom?" comes closest to my own view.... there are probably an infinite number of ways of looking at the same material, and each perspective will bring new terms, new vocabulary to light. So, it doesn't matter how many indexers tackle the index for how long.... some new indexer will always have a fresh insight (as paradigms change, so does our way of approaching the information). In some ways, I find this a comfort.... my index can only be a construct from my perspective at this point in time within the contraints imposed by the publication process. That doesn't mean that I don't think are minimal standards of uniformity, however. On the other hand, in trying to teach indexing, I struggle with the apparent rigidity of terms imposed in the process of indexing and wonder how best to explain this to students (who up til now probably thought of indexed terms as obvious and concrete objects to be plucked from the text). I feel like I have to act as though there ARE concrete terms that I can pluck from the text, but I believe that these terms exist only because I know what they are..... (Seth and I have been discussing as well the issue of "how much do you need to know before you can index a topic" and we both conclude "lots"). You can tell that I work on books in which there are rarely established controlled vocabularies (as in textbooks and computer manuals accompanying software), and I index many books in which the whole point of the book is to establish NEW vocabulary. What's an indexer to do? Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Trans-border work In-Reply-To: <199609042320.QAA04878@mx3.u.washington.edu> In the U.S., the social security number functions as a tax ID number for unincorporated freelancers and is required by the client for reporting to the IRS. If you have something parallel in Canada that you can substitute, I'm guessing that it would be acceptable to your client's accountants. I haven't worked for Canadian publishers, but do have one client in Europe. The only complication I've run into with him is having to accept multiple (partial) payments for the job (by pre-arrangement) to comply with local banking laws concerning limits on individual transfer of funds out of the country. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Patricia Buchanan wrote: > I have a chance to index for an American publisher but he is worried > about my not having an American social insurance number. He thinks > the accounting department would not be able to issue a cheque without > this number. I am a Canadian and live in Canada. Does anyone have > any experience working "across the border" and the problems > encountered with accounting departments and their rules? > > Would I be running into written or unwritten rules about hiring > Americans first? If there were any American indexers available, > would the company would have to hire them before a foreigner? (I > prefer this term to alien - sounds extraterrestrial to me.) I > admit that this problem never occurred to me. I would like to > offer the editor a solution because the work is desirable. I would > appreciate any suggestions or advice. > > Thanks in advance. > > Patricia > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:15:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy Dear Cartel Members - Am I losing perspective or am I simply a biochemical curmudgeon? All this twittering on Index-L regarding price-fixing, and the attendant anxieties, leaves me shaking my head in wonder. Likewise Political Correctness. Have we raised wimpiness to an art form? Do these people seriously believe that the Antitrust Police are monitoring Index-L for evidence of an international price-fixing conspiracy among indexers? At $1.00/page? We might be prosecuted for conspiring to undercut the Minimum Wage legislation. But of course we can't use the expression "Coolie Labor" because it isn't PC! How about "Compensationally Challenged"? As someone on CNN observed the other night: "The two most abundant elements in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity." Conspiratorially yours, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:18:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: donating unpacked books library has a Friends of the Library group. Many of these have book sales which goes dierctly to benefitting the library. Beleive me, these groups do not spend the money on themselves. There are a quite a few people such as my husband who collects so many books that they could stock a library from their own collection. (He has 7 5-shelf bookcases and enough books on the floor for 2 more cases.) You wrote: > >Yes, you could give the books to a library, but don't forget that if the >libraries are experiencing funding cuts for materials, they may also not >have the staff available to catalog gift books. Gift books usually cost the >library more than one would think in terms of processing time. In addition, >dated material in a library, especially in this day and age of instant >information, doesn't really encourage users to use the library; for example, >many studies of libraries in the developing world have shown that most of >the gift books sent overseas are so out of date that the libraries continue >to be as poorly utilized as before. > >Just my opinion. > > >>We have lots of books, but I would make one suggestion to the hoarders in the >>indexing world: If you don't use them in 5 or 10 years, think about giving >>them to the local library. >> >>Just a thought. >> >>Joanne Clendenen >>J_Clendenen@msn.com >> >>---------- >>Gee >>e >> >> > >************ > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen >INDEXER >Blacksburg, VA >cbertel@nrv.net >http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:23:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Senior citizen? In-Reply-To: <199609042343.QAA06854@mx3.u.washington.edu> There is an actual medical term for FRAIL ELDERLY, referring to the physical condition rather than age alone. As somebody else pointed out, there is also a distinction in MeSH between AGED (age 65+) and AGING (a physiological condition). "Senior citizens" or "Seniors" is a sociological concept; it doesn't even get a cross reference in MeSH. I do a lot of indexing in this area, and for single-authored works tend to follow the author's terminology; for multi-authored works I follow the predominant terminology or fall back on MeSH definitions. And speaking as somebody who was quite taken aback shortly after my 50th birthday at receiving my first invitation to join AARP, I would NOT use Seniors (or any variation thereof) unless that's the term used by the author. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:23:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Debra A. Bailey" Subject: Re: Trans-border work At 12:07 9/4/96 PDT, you wrote: >I have a chance to index for an American publisher but he is worried >about my not having an American social insurance number. He thinks >the accounting department would not be able to issue a cheque without >this number. I am a Canadian and live in Canada. Here's some information from my writing list regarding Canadians working for US publishers: From: Ann Douglas Subject: Re: Canadians, American publishers, and Social Securit Sender: owner-childrens-writing@store-forward.mindspring.com Reply-To: childrens-writing@store-forward.mindspring.com There's some standard gov't form you have to sign declaring you aren't a U.S. citizen, and therefore don't have a social security number. It's similar to the Canadian form that you fill out when you start a new job (TD-1). That's all that's been required of me by THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE & COMPUSERVE & the miscellaneous parenting magazines I write for. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:45:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Wright-ARCHIVES Subject: FW: "vetting"? I can attest to the fact that 'vetting' is in current usage in the UK - the procedure known in the US as 'getting a security clearance' in known in the UK as 'positive vetting. Regards from the BBC. Richard Wright - Information Systems Engineer BBC Information & Archives -------- From: owner-index-l To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: "vetting"? Date: 27 August 1996 03:27pm Vetting pages (according to my dictionary) means to "subject [something] to expert appraisal or correction." (British usage more than American, according to the dictionary). At 11:36 AM 8/27/96 -0700, Angela Howard wrote: >> >> As a matter of course, whenever any book comes in, my husband vetts the pages >> and marks page ranges for all headings throughout the book. >> >What does "vetts" mean? Couldn't find it in my dictionary as a verb. Maybe >it's indexing/editing jargon? > _______________________________ > > Angela M. Howard > Technical Writing and Indexing > America Online, Inc. > angela@sb.aol.com > (805)882-2350 x126 > _______________________________ > > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:45:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Wright-ARCHIVES Subject: FW: Hearing Impaired / Deaf I worked for 10 years for the UK RNID: The Royal National Institute for the Deaf. This has now changed its name (but not its initials!) to The Royal National Institute for Deaf People. This is more a usage than an indexing issue -- and of course you could cite authorities to favour 'persons' rather than 'people' in this title. The particular usage issue was referring to 'deaf people' rather than to 'the deaf'. The difficult issue is 'deaf', 'Deaf' and 'hearing impaired'. There is a strong Deaf lobby for the capitalised version to refer to a cultural group -- exactly the issue requiring Black instead of black in phrases like 'Black culture in America'. Then, finally, we get to deaf / hearing-impaired. For audiological purposes at the RNID, and I believe following the standard UK and US terminology, hearing loss was categorised as: moderate, severe and profound. The exact definition was based on the average (in decibels) of measured hearing loss at 500, 1000 and 2000 Hz. This may by way too technical to be of any use to you. The practical distinction was that moderate and severe hearing losses tended to be the group called 'hearing-impaired people' - and profound losses were 'deaf people'. The cultural difference was that the majority of people with profound deafness were born that way -- at least in terms of children and pre-retirement age adults (the people met in a work-related context) -- meaning they were Deaf and knew sign language, possibly had sign as their first language, and often did not use speech as their primary method of linguistic interchange -- it at all. The majority of hearing-impaired persons were born hearing, had an acquired loss, had acquired at least some spoken language as a child (ofter full spoken language), and then had lost their hearing. Interestingly, a hearing-impaired person with a severe hearing loss would often describe him/herself as handicapped, whereas a Deaf person with a profound loss (ie in technical terms much 'worse' hearing) will often totally reject the label of handicapped -- seeing him/herself as simply a member of a different linguistic community. So: if you are referring to people who use speech and not sign, and once had better hearing than they now have, I would think 'hearing impaired' would be the best term. People who were born with a profound loss, usually use sign and identify with being Deaf could be indexed as 'deaf'. I hope this is helpful. Richard Wright - Information Systems Engineer BBC Information & Archives ---------- From: owner-index-l To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Politically correct Date: 03 September 1996 07:19pm In this age of political correctness, I find myself with a small dilemma. Which term is considered most correct, polite, nonoffensive, etc. etc. etc. Senior Citizen or Elderly? I plan to list both with one cross referencing to the other, but can't decide which should be the main entry. I have the same dilemma with Hearing Impaired and Deaf but am leaning toward Hearing Impaired since not all with hearing impairments are deaf. . .I don't know. Would love input on either or both. Thanks for your help, Gaylene Hatch ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:54:41 +0000 Reply-To: norcross@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Infromation Services Subject: Re: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote: > > Dear Cartel Members - > > Am I losing perspective or am I simply a biochemical curmudgeon? Biochemical curmudgeon? Does that mean "cranky because I took too many drugs" or, more simply, "born to bitch?" Either way, it's a nice phrase. :-) > All this > twittering on Index-L regarding price-fixing, and the attendant anxieties, > leaves me shaking my head in wonder. Likewise Political Correctness. Have > we raised wimpiness to an art form? Do these people seriously believe that > the Antitrust Police are monitoring Index-L for evidence of an international > price-fixing conspiracy among indexers? The only group that might actually be following this discussion (not "monitoring," I'm not totally paranoid... I mean that they are following out of professional interest) is... OUR CLIENTS! I know that at least one person at my main client follows online indexing discussions. > As someone on CNN observed the other night: "The two most abundant elements > in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity." Bob, you might want to be prepared for some flames here--some readers will undoubtedly think you have called them, personally, "stupid." > > Conspiratorially yours, > > Bob Richardson Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services Psssst. Joe sent me. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:47:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Online Index (long) In a message dated 96-09-04 21:41:00 EDT, you write: > Actually, I kind of wonder how many indexers on the list have ever done an > index exclusively for an electronic publication? (I don't mean database > indexing, but back-of-the-rom indexing!) > I've done this kind of index for a few projects, and you do reduce the need for see references by duplicating the material instead. What I found, though, is that you still need the See also's (or Also see's in online cases). It also depends on the tool you get to use to build the index, which you sometimes have little control over. The perfect index online depends so much on the search tool people can use to access it. The one I did last displayed the index in a book-like two-level format, which allowed people to scroll through it. It also allowed you to type in the word you were looking for, ala WinHelp, and as long as that was the first word of a main entry, it would take you to that point in the index. Once you found the topic, you clicked on it, and the topic appeared to the right of the index. The index stayed in place, so that you could easily go back and click other entries. So the order of words became critical to the ease of use. Another feature was that you could click to expand or hide the subentries. The index appeared with all subentries showing by default. When we tested it with users, we found they really appreciated the book-like format. It was a metaphor they were used to. They appreciated being able to scroll and to browse, instead of being forced to limit their searches to keywords. We found they could care less about hiding and expanding the subentries. They all immediately took to the typing in of words to get to the right section. But we also found that they got very tired of reading subentries on screen, so we needed to limit the number of subentries under each head. With complex entries, such as printing, I had to compose actual topics myself that were acting as third levels in the index, listing further menu choices for the user. An example would be - in the index itself you would see: Printing black and white color desktop duplex high resolution If you then click on "High resolution" the Help screen you would see to the right would say: "What do you want to do? Prepare a file for offsite printing Print full color pieces at a service bureau Print in black and white at 1200 dpi Print in black and white at 2400 dpi Print spot-color separations at a service bureau This meant I had to write help topics and mesh them in with the writer's topics. The writers would also construct these kinds of topics for their own use, and I had to check to see if I could use the already-written ones in places where I needed them, add to them if some things were missing, or write my own. One other interesting sidelight - in the cases the writers wanted to force the user to decide what they were doing, so that they could give specific help based on the specific case, I would be indexing to a "question" screen rather than to the endpoint information. For instance, the procedures for creating a full-color or a spot-color publication were very different, and the user needed to be aware of that difference from the start. So when they clicked on an index entry for "color publications: creating" they would get a screen that asked them "Which do you want to create, full color or spot color?" and they followed the information trail from there, having made a decision. Further help and explanation was always available if they didn't know what choice to make. It was interesting to decide how high up in the hierarchies of information each index entry needed to go. Another aspect of indexing online is deciding whether the information makes sense when jumped to from the index. Is it out of context, does it depend on the information above it in the hierarchy to make full sense? If the user comes to it without the full trail, will it work? If it could not stand alone, indexing to the information above it, or asking to have it rewritten so it could stand alone, were the options. So in the ideal online index, the index is not of linear material, but of vertical heirarchies of information, and you can wind up not only meshing into the material but also writing some pieces of it yourself to fit the index's needs. The writers were organizing the information into trails leading from the top down, and the index organized the information into trails leading from the side in, or the bottom up, however you want to look at it. -- Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:02:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Heather L. Ebbs" Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: Senior citizen? Re Carolyn's comments on seniors, the elderly, etc. I too use MeSH, for appropriate projects, and I know all about aged and the frail elderly and all the other age-related MeSH terms, but Gaylene's question was whether to use senior citizen or elderly for her specific project, because the two main audience groups would use one or the other. It sounded like a non-clinical text for a non-clinical audience, so I offered my suggestions based on that. The Seniors Secretariat of the federal government here in Canada and the Ontario Office for Senior Citizen Issues have both done studies asking people who are 65 years or older what terms they prefer: seniors, older adults, elders, mature consumers and older Canadians were all considered "comfortable" terms. Senior citizen was a "less comfortable" term. "Elderly" was disliked. BTW, I can't imagine anyone being considered a "senior" when she is 50, or 55 or 60, FTM. Bad AARP (whatever that is)! Bad! Heather ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:14:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: my two cents (rates, etc.) I meant to add a comment about rates to my posting yesterday, then didn't have time, but forgot to take off the subject heading--sorry for leading anyone down a blind alley! When a client asks my rates, I always quote a range, depending on the depth of indexing required, the type of material, etc. I have been saying $3.00 to $5.00 a page, or $.60 to $.70 an entry. If the project warrants hourly rates, I usually charge $30 or $35, although up until last year I was still quoting $25, which now seems too low. For medical or scientific indexing, the per-entry rate seems to work well. For revisions or cookbooks or embedded projects, the hourly rate is essential, and a few regular clients expect to be charged by the hour. By charging by the hour, the per-page rate can appear to be quite low or quite high--depending on the material. What matters to me is that I get the job done and get paid for my time, and what matters to the client is that I get the job done and enable them to stay within budget. For scholarly books, I have discovered that $3 a page is not nearly enough, so my minimum is now $3.50, and I usually charge $3.75 or $4.00. Even at that, it's hard to make $30 an hour, which I think of as the minimum decent wage. But then, sometimes I just spend too much time thinking... When I am asked to do consulting, I quote $50 or $60 an hour. As for Jan's and Pilar's postings on CD-ROM indexing, THANK YOU!!!!!!! This is a fascinating new direction that I look forward to hearing more about. And I dream of the time in a year or so when I get my debts paid off and can justify a new computer system! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:11:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Re: Rates In-Reply-To: <199609041349.JAA28737@cap1.CapAccess.org> As a wanna-be indexer I've been watching the discussion about rates with a great deal of interest. Janet made a remark about social science publishers paying the worst. I'm wondering if the rates have to do with the subject of the books that one indexes. It seems to me that if you're indexing a book in computer sciences, medicine or law you will get paid more for these fields. Is this correct? Perhaps Larry whose Ph.D. I noted was in anthropology, would make more if he had some expertise in the fields I mentioned above. Any humanities indexers out there cracking that magical $50,000 salary ceiling yet? ;-) Let us know! Regards Julia Marshall juliam@capaccess.org X x ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:53:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy At 11:15 AM 9/5/96 -0400, Bob wrote A TOTALLY MARVELOUS POSTING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I laughed till I cried. My cat Gladys, who's out here in my office with me, is looking at me as though I'm nuts. And I probably am. Of course, Gladys may be one of THEM. In disguise. FWIW, there's a good article in the _Atlantic Monthly_ this month about the "e" word: "euphemism." And political correctness. Read and laugh and weep. From another cartel member (shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh), Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:57:03 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: scanner question (Macintosh) This is slightly off-topic; hope you don't mind. Have any of you bought/used a Visioneer PaperPort Vx? I'm in the market for one and would like to hear from folks (off-list, OK?) who know about this scanner. I'm especially interested in hearing about the accuracy of the OCR software. Thanks. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:58:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: The Ideal Index? NOT (a summary) In-Reply-To: "Barbara E. Cohen" "Re: The Ideal Index" (Sep 5, 9:04am) I don't want to say anything yet regarding the "ideal" index. But I *do* want to say that no one has attempted to argue the other side, that there *is* (or at least philosophically *might be*) such a beast as an ideal index. What would it look like? Who could use it? What types of books are more susceptible to perfect indexing? I have my two cents, but I'm saving them, trying to earn a wee bit of interested before saying anything. But so far, this philosophical discussion has only one side. I'm intrigued, because it looks like I'm going to have to be the only devil's advocate on this one. So I'm saving my strength. :-) Meanwhile, I like what you all say, and you all have some very good points to make. So far the solid arguments *against* an ideal index include: 1. Timing. A perfect index today is most likely not going to perfect tomorrow. 2. Audience. Everyone has their own opinions on what "perfect" means, so how can such a thing exist? 3. Timeframe. We would think that a perfect index, were one to exist, would require an impractical length of time to create -- and thus a perfect index might as well *not* exist, because who's going to try it? 4. Perspective. Similar to #2 above, how can two indexers with different backgrounds, lifestyles, educations, experience, and so on come up with the same index, even by accident? In fact, the results of actual multiple-indexer experiments tend to demonstrate that there are too many ways to write a good index -- and therefore no way to write a single, "perfect" one. 5. Infinite Lexicon. As long as the English language has an infinite number of words in it, an index can never encompass anything literary. (NOTE: The English lexicon is *not* infinite. Although it most certainly is of an amazing size, it is finite. However, new words are being invented/adapted all the time. But this brings us back to #3 above.) So, are you all telling me that for me to argue for the idea of an ideal index I would need to counter only these five arguments? No sweat.... :-) I will say now, though, that there's no good money in writing an ideal index. Being fast, cheap, and dirty always pays better. ;-) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1199 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Senior citizen? > And speaking as >somebody who was quite taken aback shortly after my 50th birthday at >receiving my first invitation to join AARP, I would NOT use Seniors >(or any variation thereof) unless that's the term used by the author. I actually look forward to hitting the big 5-0 and getting to join AARP. Maybe I'll *finally* get discounts for *something*! If only we could get retroactive discounts, too. Like on computer systems. Oh well, only 7 more years to go. Hazel Aged? Senior? Elderly? Old? Golden-ager? Curmudgeonly, for sure! Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:08:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Senior citizen? In-Reply-To: <199609051659.JAA21880@mx5.u.washington.edu> AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) is one of the most vocal groups for seniors in the US; membership is available to anyone 50+, retired or not. And within a month of your 50th birthday I GUARANTEE you'll start hearing from them! It's a worse shock to the ego than the first gray hair, arthritis, or learning that you are no longer one of the preferred targets for TV advertisers. Takes quite a few mailings from AARP before the perceived advantages to joining (travel/insurance/RV park discounts) begins to offset the shock of being considered OLD enough for membership! Excuse me while I creep back to my rocking chair... Carolyn On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Heather L. Ebbs wrote: > > BTW, I can't imagine anyone being considered a "senior" when she is 50, or > 55 or 60, FTM. Bad AARP (whatever that is)! Bad! > > Heather > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:21:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy To all who are aghast at the reluctance of indexers to discuss prices, I want to point out that the translators' association was sued by the U.S. government a few years ago for "price fixing," and they had to spend a lot of money fighting the charges. If anyone knows how their case turned out, I'd be interested to hear. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:39:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Soares Neagus Subject: Rates I would like to thank everyone who bravely posted their rate scales. It has helped me in two ways. First, I now know my expected rate scale is in line with what others are charging. Second, and most importantly, when I get that first paying project, I will not be tempted to set a lower rate. I will be able to confidently state my rates without any doubts that what I am asking is reasonable. Thank You, Paula ILLUMINATING INDEXES _____________________________________________ Paula Soares Neagus New Britain, CT 06052 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:36:10 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: The Ideal Index To illustrate the difficulties in developing the ideal index, I should let you all know about an interesting little exercise that we in the South Central chapter of ASI performed last fall out our regional meeting. We took several Wilson Award winning indexes from the past, and analyzed and judged them ourselves. I'm not sure they would have won the award again, had we been on the judging panel. I'm not saying that we are the ultimate judges, or anything, or that the judgments of the past are invalid, it's just that each individual has a different take on what's important in an index. We found some inconsistencies, format problems, etc., in all the indexes we looked at. Of course, some of our criticisms may have been due to things that the indexer had no control over (paragraph format when indented would have been better; only one level of subentries which caused long strings of locators, etc.). So, if the indexer did have control and time, could an index be "perfect"? I don't think so. I agree that whether or not a perfect index is out there, our views on a given text will be subjective and therefore, perfection is in the eye of the beholder. Also, I had the distinct honor and pleasure of working with two great indexers when I took the USDA course back in 1992. I think the single most important thing I learned was that indexers have varying styles and preferences. Nancy Mulvany's refusal to combine multi-word noun phrases with the same initial word so as not to artificially over-classify distinctly different terms: change, therapeutic change agent approach change segments vs. Bevanne Ross's philosophy, which was to combine terms as much as possible if they started with the same noun: change, therapeutic change agent approach segments of. Now, who's "right"? Actually, sometimes one and sometimes the other. I have to admit, though, that I often cringe from artificially classifying terms like the above, and find myself more comfortable with Nancy's philosophy. But it just goes to show that deciding what an ideal index is, is no easy task. Joanne Clendenen J_Clendenen@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:19:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Editing OK, this is off-topic, but I thought I'd appeal to you good folks, anyway. Can anyone suggest any good editing organizations to join? The only one I've ever belonged to has been Women in Scholarly Publishing, and I'd like to know what else is out there. Also, any suggestions about editing listservs? I'm familiar with copyediting-l, and I know there's a list for tech writers. Anything else? Since this is probably way off-topic, please go ahead and write to me directly. TIA, Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:56:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: indexing school newspapers ?? Just received this note from Steve Johns. > I appreciate both the >advice and the encouragement! My final >sign-off "plea" brought me at least a dozen e-mails from Index L'ers, all >similar to yours. All from people who had never indexed a newspaper >themselves but either they knew someone who had (and they provided names >and numbers!) or they knew of a book or journal article on the subject. >So this was very nice of them and should prove to be very helpful. > > I do feel like I learned a bit about Indexers in the past two >weeks, it's certainly been interesting. I occasionally entertain the >idea of going thru a list of library science listservs one by one, >subscribing to a new one (and unsubscribing from the prev. one) every 2 or >3 weeks, just to see what's on the minds of & what's being discussed by >library professionals in our different areas of speciality. Unfortunately >time limits us all, and we only have so much to devote to e-mail. >Being an Archivist, not an Indexer, and already belonging to several >archives related listservs, I _have_ already signed off Index-L. Anyway >my point is, if you would, please post a brief thank you to the list >from me. The Index L'ers came thru in the end and I'd like to thank them. > >Steven Johns >Rice University Archives > > Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:16:00 EDT Reply-To: nharwood@grad.usda.gov Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nharwood@GRAD.USDA.GOV Subject: Re: Editing Hazel: check out http://grad.usda.gov/corres/indexlnk.html and ........./listserv.html. If you find any more listserves for editors, please let me know. Thanks, N. >OK, this is off-topic, but I thought I'd appeal to you good folks, anyway. >Can anyone suggest any good editing organizations to join? The only one I've >ever belonged to has been Women in Scholarly Publishing, and I'd like to >know what else is out there. > >Also, any suggestions about editing listservs? I'm familiar with >copyediting-l, and I know there's a list for tech writers. Anything else? > >Since this is probably way off-topic, please go ahead and write to me directly. > >TIA, > >Hazel >Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) > "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. > It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney Norma Harwood, Director Correspondence Program Graduate School, USDA nharwood@grad.usda.gov http://grad.usda.gov/corres/corpro.html "The Government's Trainer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:37:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy In a message dated 96-09-05 20:21:02 EDT, you write: > > To all who are aghast at the reluctance of indexers to discuss prices, I > want to point out that the translators' association was sued by the U.S. > government a few years ago for "price fixing," All, Why does the organization keep getting brought up here?! I don't understand this. We are individuals discussing, comparing, in open forum, not within the confines, bounds, or under the aegis of *any* organization. ASI has no jurisdiction or official representation here. These are individuals talking, comparing notes. No recommendation will issue forth. No decision will be made. There is no "official body." ASI is not involved here. So what, exactly, is the problem? On a calmer note, Elinor, I do wonder what the translator's organization did to bring such governmental wrath upon itself. If you find out details, please let us know. It *is* important for ASI to monitor the events and be aware of where that "line" is. From ASI's point of view I can see the importance of being aware of this case. I just don't see the relevance to this listserve's discussion. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:00:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Senior citizen? Heather, FYI, AARP is the American Assoc. of Retired Persons, a private organization that supposedly represents the interest of those persons over 50 years old. That is the age at which you can join. I, for one, find that amusing. I am more than 50 (a tad and a half), and I'm just hitting my prime, having an absolute blast running my own business, working hard, earning well, and have no intention of giving it up any time soon. In fact, that is one of the reasons I'm now in business for myself. I can't get fired, laid off, RIF'd, or put out to pasture. Just me and my computer and my brain. Sounds like heaven to me. May it last a long, long time! For what it's worth, folks..... Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:18:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Index entry software under development In a message dated 96-09-01 02:37:26 EDT, Jonathan Jermey wrote: << have tried to maximise the speed of data entry by allowing users to re-use existing entries rather than having to retype them each time - which I find a big drawback with Macrex. >> Just wondering what entries you are having to retype with Macrex? A major design feature of Macrex is the ability to re-use existing index entries rather than having to re-type them. Between the yank, half- and full- flips, to repeat previous entry, "_," to repeat active heading levels, and either full or last locator repeat, the need to retype should be minimal. If you (and other users) would take the time to tell me what you are re-typing, I would greatly appreciate the information so that we can improve documentation, etc. as needed. To keep this from boring the other members of the Index-L, perhaps we should take the discussion off-line, in which case, I'll be glad to report back to anyone who is interested. Gale Rhoades Director Macrex Sales & Support Office (North America only) For Australia, Nw Zealand and South East Asia, e-mail mindexer@interconnect.com.au For the rest of the world, e-mail hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Macrex, the choice of professionals around the world ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:37:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy To Index-L: I appreciate the thoughtfulness of many of your responses to my Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy posting. My posting was not intended to deprecate reasonable concerns regarding ethical professional conduct. Rather, I was tying to point out the intrinsic difference between a group of unaffiliated indexers discussing rates in an open Internet forum, and organizational or corporate price-fixing. No personal affront was intended. It seems to me that certain essential First-Amendment rights are involved here, as well as common sense. My recollection (and I am not a lawyer) is that for litigation successfully to be brought there has to be a demonstrable intent to price-fix. Of course, that doesn't mean that ultimately unsuccessful litigation cannot proceed at great expense to all parties. To the best of my recollection, ASI has, to its credit, been scrupulous in avoiding even the suggestion of encouraging price-fixing. As our respresentative professional organization it must, and does, move very carefully and circumspectly. But ASI also has conducted a salary survey (about 5 - 6 years ago?) that was published in the ASI Newsletter. The important point here, I believe, is that it was published without editorial comment regarding :"ASI-suggested rates", and simply was presented as the results of a member survey. No lawsuit resulted. Index-L is not an official (or unofficial) forum of ASI, and compensation is a reasonable subject for open discussion between independent, individual, subscribers to this list. One can post and discuss one's rates, or not, as one chooses, without fear of reprisal. That, as we all [should] know, is one of the preeminent advantages of living in America. Of course, the observation that clients also read Index-L postings cuts two ways. In the best case, a client who routinely pays $1.50/page might realize that this rate is much lower than the average, reasonable, compensation. That awareness might not change anything, and I hesitate to suggest that considerations of equity will govern or that the low-paying client will experience a sudden crisis of conscience... In the worst case, a client paying $3 or $4/page might think : "Gee, I had better get in touch with the newbie who is willing to accept $1.50." But I don't believe that our professional lives are that precarious, or that every client is that venal. It is an uncertain world, but we do poorly if we customarily are governed by fear. One should move prudently, of course, but La Rochefoucauld's 17th-century observation still is valid: "The only security is courage". Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index? NOT (a summary) Seth, No, I'm not saying that you would have to counter those 5 points that you mentioned. I do believe these are accurate, but they are only a part of the thinking of the person who believes that there is no ideal index. They are actually ancillary to the main point. .... which is: The argument I've stated, and which others seem to agree with, each stating it his/her own way, is that indexing is a creative process, and, therefore, the index cannot be deemed perfect or ideal, nor can it be measured against a standard. Minimum standards, yes. But not ONE STANDARD. We all can tell you what a bad index looks like. But to speak of "ideal" is another matter. No. My point is that this is a creative work. Each index is a product of its creator's intellect, interacting with the material to be indexed, bringing the sum total of his/her learning, life experience, unique way of thinking, etc, to it. There will be no way to compare or judge, no standard for "ideal." What say you to this? Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KINGH@SNYSYRV1.BITNET Subject: Editing tips? I just finished a monster index -- not big. Just details, definitions, facts on every page -- maybe every paragraph and ideas and themes repeated many times with many examples using diffferent terms. Terms whose meaning was only a hair different. How do the rest of you go about editing an index for a ms like this? I kept reaching for "the index" and had to keep reminding myself "you're creating it you ninny!" Anyway, I'm preparing to do another like it next week and I'm just wondering if you experts can share any tricks for indexeses where you want to add a "See also" for every word! TIA, HMKing, kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu (Please excuse mispelling indexes just finished the ms from Hell 3 hours ago so am more spacey than usual.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 01:00:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: sample index Recently I wrote to a Victorian studies listserv I subscribe to, and asked for suggestions of books I could use for sample indexes. I gave the criteria (1) worth indexing, (2) lacking any index or possessed of a very inadequate one, (3) interesting to read, (4) readily available from libraries, and (5) not particularly long, nor extremely abstruse. A couple of the responses I got suggested certain autobiographies or memoirs, which made me realize that these works tend not to be indexed as often or as carefully as their more scholarly cousins, biographies. Yet they need it more, being generally more rambling and harder to track down facts in. I imagine that the circumstances of publishing have a lot to do with it. I also got an interesting response from a disgruntled author who had had a lousy experience at the hands of a "so-called professional indexer" and thought I should try her book. Her impression was that the indexer had left out a lot of names, but added unnecessary subheadings to expand the length of the index. "In other words, if you have to have more than five entries before you do a breakdown, he had 4 and broke them down into sub-heads. That took up more lines of type without any more work on his part." I don't see myself how it wouldn't be more work. I would have thought the natural thing for an inexperienced indexer to do would be to index every name in sight (including passing mentions) and not do *enough* breaking down. Her book actually sounded right up my alley, so I'm going to try to get it. Does anyone have suggestions on sample works -- not specific books to do, but types of books? Should one try to do new books rather than old? I can see doing an older book of memoirs for the fun of it, but would an editor be underwhelmed? Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 01:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KINGH@SNYSYRV1.BITNET Subject: Re: Politically correct I was not allowed -- yes not allowed -- to index "politically sensitive" terms (concepts ok) _____even though the author used them throughout the text. This is the first time I indexed under such a constraint. I still feel that if the terms were not appropriate for the index then they should not have been used in the text. Oh well, work-for-hire versus separate creation? I operate "work-for-hire" mode, I guess. HMKing (kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 04:40:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: xwoods Subject: Re: Rates and ages Paula wrote: >I would like to thank everyone who bravely posted their rate scales. And now people are bravely posting their ages! Question: Can the person with the perfect rate range, in the perfect age range, create the perfect index? X Woods ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:12:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: need help!! on length Another HELP MEEEEE from Rachel. Sorry again. OK, I've a book on population control (not the one mentioned on the list a couple of weeks ago) and I've been given 6 pgs for the index on a 300 pg book with 2-5 entries per page. According to Lori L's index estimator, and to my own calculations based on what I've got so far, I'm going to exceed 6 pgs by a fair amt. I can't decide which important stuff to leave out. There are references to varying countrys' fertilitiy rates, food and fuel consumptions, etc. I thought of leaving refs to individual countries out and trying to lump them together somehow, but I think this is info the reader will want to reference. I also am trying to keep down double posting, and leaving out as many excess words and stuff as possible. The sample I was sent has strings and strings of undifferentiated locators. Another way to save space, but makes for a fairly useless index. Any suggestions? I hate to say this but time is of the essence as the thing is due Monday morning. I was supposed to have til Wed., and so did my other index first, then came Edouard who put me out of business for 2 days, and then I was asked to get it in early by 2 days. Hope I can do it. As always, thanks many millions of times for your help, Rachel PS anyone got a good remedy for poison ivy? Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:35:30 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: indexing school newspapers ?? At 11:31 4/09/96 -0500, Steven Johns wrote: > Roughly a week ago I posted a question to the list asking anyone >who had been involved in indexing a school newspaper to comment on their >experiences. Oddly enough, I did not receive one single response. >Monitoring the list for two weeks leads me to belive it's mostly comprised >of self-employed, work at home, indexer-for-hire types. So perhaps no >one on the list has had this experience and I targeted the wrong list. Don't forget that you can do an archive search on the list to find all past contributions on a particular topic - the easiest way to do this is through the Gopher list on: gopher://gopher.gasou.edu/Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Jermey's Law: Information content is proportional to the inverse square of bandwidth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:35:57 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Query on preparation for project At 09:45 3/09/96 -0600, Carol wrote: >Cheryl wrote: >>However, I am puzzled about one thing that several of you mentioned: marking >>page ranges for sub-sections, illustrations, etc. before you start to index. >> I must be missing something. If the pages are numbered already, what is the >>point of noting page number ranges? I hope you will enlighten me! > >I don't know whether this is what others had in mind, but here's what I >sometimes do (I don't always mark page ranges at all). Let's say you have a >long chapter and sections within the chapter. Section 2, "How to Herd >Cats," runs from p. 16 through p. 44. I would mark the page range next to >the section heading on p. 16 so that when I sit down to key in entries, I >minimize flipping through pages of the text looking for where sections end. I developed a couple of symbols which I scrawl on pages: (>) means 'this topic continues to the next page' (||) means 'this topic continues for two more pages' That way I don't have to refer to the page numbers while highlighting unless I have a topic which extends more than two pages. Jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Jermey's Law: Information content is proportional to the inverse square of bandwidth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:36:35 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: The Ideal Index At 17:38 4/09/96 -0500, you wrote: >Seth maislin and I had a great conversation today about what >constitutes the ideal index, and I would love to hear YOUR >thoughts about this. Seth maintains that given enough time >and space, one could construct the perfect index (and that >any good indexer would approximate this index given enough >time and space). > >Conversely, I believe that it is fundamentally impossible to >constract one ideal index, because of the limitations of any >current paradigm/perspective/view of the information/text being >indexed. Given that perceptions change over time, there will >be any number of "correct" or "good" or "satisfactory" indexes >to a body of text at any point in time or by any different >indexers. Glenda and I have the same sort of philosophical disagreement about indexes - she 'sees' the potential index in the book like the sculptor sees the shape of the final sculpture buried in the original stone: I see indexing as more like bolting bits and pieces together in order to get a Tinker Toy that works - the actual bits are less important than the way in which they're put together. We know that different indexers produce very different results from the same text. I suspect also that different users will get very different results from the same index - whether it's the undergrad who uses a textbook every day for six weeks and never opens it again, the professor who consults it twice a year, or the 'educated lay person' who uses it once in their lifetime. I don't think you can define an 'ideal' index without first defining an 'ideal' user. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Jermey's Law: Information content is proportional to the inverse square of bandwidth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:36:54 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Indexing of CD-ROMs At 21:27 4/09/96 -0400, Dave wrote: >One could point to indexes being created for CD-ROMs as being a place that at >least has "unlimited" space compared to paper. There are feelings among >indexers that double, triple, and higher postings are appropriate and should >be used to eliminate cross references (which are often present only to >conserve space in a paper index). Of course most people don't scan CD >indexes they search them and this brings up the issue of the software being >used. How does it present hits for double postings? Can it reduce them to >uniquely useful hits? How can it help the user in other ways that paper >cannot? > >Actually, I kind of wonder how many indexers on the list have ever done an >index exclusively for an electronic publication? (I don't mean database >indexing, but back-of-the-rom indexing!) There's a series of 'scholarly' CD-ROMs that consist of the collected works of various scientists like Donald Norman - about five of his books, supplemented by videos and pictures (and sounds?) that illustrate the things the books talk about. I've seen one of these in action, and I know it has a single hypertext index, but how it was compiled, on what principles, and who by I have no idea. Anyone out there know? Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Jermey's Law: Information content is proportional to the inverse square of bandwidth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:08:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index? NOT (a summary) In a message dated 96-09-05 22:08:01 EDT, Seth wrote: << are you all telling me that for me to argue for the idea of an ideal index I would need to counter only these five arguments? >> No. Those 5 points are certainly part of the picture. but What about elegance? Are you saying there is one ideal form for index elegance? that Creativity is objective? Just as there is an ideal logos, or the ideal circle, sure, there is an ideal index. But how many of us can really draw that perfect circle in one sweep of chalk? I once heard a rumor of a professor (could it have been Feynman?) who did, but that may have been a dream. Tell me what the true beauty is, and I'll be on your side in a snap and a twist. Now, I'm not sure I want to get into this, but your dared say that being "fast, cheap, and dirty" is better?! what happended to fast, dirty, and great?!!! No way Josi would I dare let something of poor quality out of this office, no matter how fast or 'dirty' it was. Pilar (trying to hide the fact that she too worships the ideal logos. It's just that she lives on good ole' dirty *earth*.) Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Thank you! Many, many thanks to everybody who sent me information on organizations and Web sites that concern editing! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "Always serve too much hot fudge sauce on hot fudge sundaes. It makes people overjoyed and puts them in your debt."--Judith Olney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:51:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Western New York State chapter meeting The WNYS Chapter of ASI is planning its next meeting for September 28th at 10:15 a.m. Lea Kemp, Librarian at the Rochester Museum and Science Center (RMSC) will be one of the speakers. Lea is back by popular demand; she spoke to our chapter several years ago. Lea will talk about Indexing Photographs and other non-verbal material. This will be an informal presentation, so be prepared with questions that you may have for Lea. After lunch (probably at the nearby Wegmans cafe) Corinne Jorgensen, professor at the University of Buffalo who teaches an indexing course, will talk about Indexing Moving Images. We will meet at Finger Lakes Community College (FLCC) at 10:15 a.m., in room B440. For more information, send email to Nancy Cannon, at ncannon@library.lib.binghamton.edu or Peg Mauer, at pmauer@aol.com, phone (518) 359-8616. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:10:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ara1 Subject: Indexer's discussion group Unsubscribe Nicole Vallecillo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Translators price-fixing case I have asked one of my students to check out any case law regarding the translators price-fixing case, to see if we can find out how that case was resolved. If anyone else thinks of it or has access to their states' published case laws, please check for us and post the results here. We have heard about this case for many years, but I've never seen a citation to it anywhere. (I've started to believe it falls under the category of "urban legends." But it would be helpful to find out once and for all what the case was about specifically, and how they resolved it, assumsing that there ever was such a case.) Hoping this helps . . . Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: The Ideal Index On 9-4 Tom McFadden stated that "In one view, a concordance would amount to a perfect index . . ." but I beg to differ with you on that point, Tom. A concordance is a tool for locating any particular word within a text. But an index is a tool for recovering concepts-- in other words, the meanings attached to the words, not the words themselves. A concordance fails to point us to concepts, and it is this function of the index (using symbols/words to location information/concepts) that makes it such a different tool than the concordance. (It is deceptive, because it looks just like a list of words--and in that sense only, it looks like a concordance.) Because the meanings of wordscan change over time, can be ambiguous, and because more than one meaning can attach to any word, indexes are much mre difficult to contruct. If all words had only a single clear meaning, we could achieve greater precision in our indexes. As it is, as tools of language, they are approximations of concepts ina text, which is made up of words which are approcimations of the concepts they convey. Since language itself must be by definition imprecise, the indexer is using an imperfect tool by its very nature too. We can achieve some clarity, and should. But whether or not there is a perfect index remains to be seen. One thing I remember nancy Mulvany saying a few years ago (in San Diego, I think, on the panel on teachign indexing) was how much she enjoyed seeing the new ways students indexed a pamphlet she had used for many classes. There were occasionally new and elegant ways to approach an index that were informative to see. New ways of organizing information should please us, and we shouldn't believe that the index we create has answered every reader's questions for all eternity.... all one indexer can do it provide as many points of access to the materials as possible. As for the criteria for a good index (a much more interesting topic, to me, than whether or not there is an ideal index), functionality should be key. Where I feel frustrated, of course, in creating any particular index is that I cannot test how helpful it will be to the readers who try to use it. One does the best one can, with surprisingly little feedback . . . Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: copies of indexing course materials? Dear index-l folks, Once again I'm coming to the list to get help in preparing for an ASI chapter meeting. Our October 2 meeting will be about indexing courses and instruction. I'm in the process of collecting all the published materials I can find, but I'd also like to collect some that are not publicly available, especially in the way of course materials and syllabi from indexing teachers and opinions, favorable or not, from indexing students. List members have come through for me spectacularly in the past, and I hope they will again. If you teach a course, tell me what you cover, who the intended audience is and what sort of learning experiences are included. If you took a course, even a short half-day or whole day seminar, tell me what you thought of it. Private mail is best for this, I think, and snail mail is best for things that are hard to e-mail without retyping. Snail-mail me at: Maryann Corbett 1800 Iglehart Avenue St. Paul, MN 55104-5214 or send e-mail to maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us Many thanks in advance! -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Termurray@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index To produce the Ideal Index, we need the Perfect Book! Terry Murray Somewhere over the rainbow (oh, all right, at the edge of Hurricane Fran--it's really getting grey out there) Counting down: Three days until my youngest child starts full-time school! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:39:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: fast, cheap, dirty Pilar, in responding to my smart-alek comment about "quick & dirty indexes," wrote: > Now, I'm not sure I want to get into this, but your dared say that being > "fast, cheap, and dirty" is better?! what happened to fast, dirty, and > great?!!! No way Josi would I dare let something of poor quality out of this > office, no matter how fast or 'dirty' it was. I'm sure some of you had heard this, but there's a quote that's shown up in a few places, most noticeably on an engineer's business card: FAST INEXPENSIVE HIGH-QUALITY Choose any two. I think what makes us successful as indexers -- and anyone who is in business for themselves -- is to know how to combine these three things in practical and desirable quantities. In fact, that very combination is our justification for our rates and our product. There is certainly nothing wrong with "fast, dirty [cheap], and great," if that's what your client wants. So, to go back to the idea of an ideal index -- and so far, it looks bad for me! :-) -- if we were willing to go with SLOW and COSTLY, is there still really an upper limit on HIGH-QUALITY? (In other words, how good *is* "fast, dirty, and great"?) - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1199 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy Janet's point, already made during this discussion is well taken. The listserv is indeed entirely separate from ASI. My comment about the translator's problem was not meant to put a damper on this discussion and elucidation, which I am delighted to see, but merely to give a little history and perspective. Now I have to go research the story, since it's hanging there unfinished! Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:08:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: fast, cheap, dirty In a message dated 96-09-06 12:48:18 EDT, Seth wrote: << how good *is* "fast, dirty, and great"? >> Seth, how about at least as good as Wilson-award quality, if not better?! ;-D Also, I'm assuming that the better you are, the cleaner your fast indexes will be. Dirty for a better indexer is presumably cleaner than another indexer's. I'm thinking of dirty as in sloppy. Sounds like you meant dirty as in cheap $$? Well, I suppose you get what you pay for. Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:18:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: need help!! on length Rachel, Re making the index fit: There are references to varying countrys' fertilitiy rates, food and fuel consumptions, >etc. I thought of leaving refs to individual countries out. I would try to leave the individual countries in, but not use them as subentries under each category--or try regions as subentries if that's appropriate. Or I would play with alternative methods of handling this (ah, so easy in XyWrite!) and see which looks better. Above all, I would talk to the client about design change possibilities. Let the client know that you are trying hard to keep to the limit, but ask if they would also consider going down in point size (an index in 6-on-8 type can be surprisingly readable), so you could get more in. Poison ivy too? Not a good week for you! We used to give out Burrows Solution when I worked at the Berkeley Free Clinic, but it didn't work too well for my daughter's poison oak--she ended up with prednisone. We also tried the homeopathic remedy Rhus graveolens, but by then her entire face was blown up and I guess it was too late. Good luck! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:18:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mounir Khalil Subject: A survey on the use of electronic journals by readers WE WOULD LIKE TO CONDUCT A SURVEY RELATING TO THE PERCEPTIONS AND OPINIONS OF READERS AND END-USERS OF ELECTRONIC JOURNALS IN THEIR RESEARCH, TERM PAPERS OR LOCATING JOURNAL ARTICLES FROM ANY ONLINE DATABASES. WE APPRECIATE YOUR FILLING OUT THE FOLLOWING SURVEY BY SEPTEMBER 30, 1996. LAST NAME:___________________________FIRST NAME:___________________________ TITLE:___________________________ORGANIZATION:_____________________________ ADDRESS:___________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ CITY:________________________STATE_________________ZIP CODE:_______________ COUNTRY:____________________ PHONE:_________________FAX:___________________ E-MAIL: ___________________________________________________________________ TYPE OF BUSINESS: ( PLEASE INDICATE ILL, REFERENCE, SERIALS, INDIVIDUAL) ________ACADEMIC _________BUSINESS ________LAW __________MEDICAL ________PUBLIC __________SCHOOL _______SPECIAL _______OTHER 1- HOW DO YOU ACCESS ELECTRONIC JOURNALS? ______INTERNET ________HOMEPAGE (WWW) _______ONLINE DATABASES ______LIBRARIES _______BUSINESS ACCOUNT ______SHARE WITH OTHER INSTITUTIONS ________OTHER (SPECIFY) _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________ 2- ARE YOU DOWNLOADING YOUR ARTICLES? __________E-MAIL ___________COMPUTERS ___________PRINTERS __________DISKETTES ________OTHER (SPECIFY)______________ _________________________________________________________ 3- WHAT PERCENTAGE OF ELECTRONIC JOURNALS DO YOU INCLUDE IN YOUR RESEARCH; OR YOU CITE IN YOUR BIBLIOGRAPHY? _______LESS THAN 10% ________20-40% _________MORE THAN 50% _________NONE 4- DO YOU TRANSMIT THE IMAGES OF JOURNAL ARTICLES FROM ELECTRONIC JOURNALS TO OTHER READERS OR END-USERS? _________YES ________NO IF (YES) BY : _______FAX ________INTERNET ______E-MAIL _____OTHER (SPECIFY) __________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________ 5- WHAT ARE THE ADVANATAGES OF USING ELECTRONIC JOURNALS OVER THE PRINT JOURNALS? PLEASE DESCRIBE IN DETAIL). _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ 6- WHAT ARE THE DISADVANTAGES OF USING ELECTRONIC JOURNALS? __________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ 7- WHAT ARE OTHER BARRIERS FOR NOT USING ELECTRONIC JOURNALS? _______LIBRARIES DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THEM. _______UNFAMILIAR WITH ELECTRONIC JOURNALS _______EXPENSIVE SUBSCRIPTION _______NEEDS TRAINING _______NO ELECTRONIC MEDIA AVAILABLE _______NOT MANY JOURNAL TITLES ARE AVAIALBLE RELATED TO MY TOPIC. _______OTHER ( SPECIFY)________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ 8- IN YOUR OPINION , ARE ELECTRONIC JOURNALS COST-EFFECTIVE? ________YES ______NO WHY? COMMENTS ARE WELCOME FROM ALL LIBRARY COLLEAGUES AND READERS_______ ___________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 9- ARE YOU ABLE TO ACCESS ELECTRONIC JOURNALS FROM OTHER DATABASES IN COUNTRIES OTHER THAN THE UNITED STATES? ________YES _______NO IF (YES) SPECIFY WHICH COUNTRY?_________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ IF (NO) WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS? _________TECHNOLOGY ________CULTURAL ________OTHER (SPECIFY) 10- DO YOU HAVE ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS THAT YOU CAN MAKE? ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________ THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION AND IMMEDIATE RESPONSE. WE APPRECIATE YOUR KIND REPLY BY SEPTEMBER 30TH, 1996. YOU CAN SEND YOUR REPLY BY FAX OR E-MAIL. A SUMMARY OF THE SURVEY WILL BE POSTED AT A LATER DATE. SEND YOUR REPLY TO EITHER: MOUNIR KHALIL RAJA JAYATILLEKE CITY COLLEGE/CUNY COLLEGE OF STATEN ISLAND/CUNY TEL.:(212) 650-8244 TEL.:(718) 982-4016 FAX : (212)650-7626 FAX: (718) 982-4015 E-MAIL:JAYATILLEKE@POSTBOX.CSI.CUNY.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:16:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: Politically correct At 01:11 AM 9/6/96 -0500, HMKing wrote: >I was not allowed -- yes not allowed -- to index "politically sensitive" >terms (concepts ok) _____even though the author used them throughout >the text. Wow! Even I am left almost speechless. So, how did the editor distinguish between "poltically sensitive terms" and "politically sensitive concepts"? Once you decided to index a politically sensitive concept, what in the world could you *call* it? This is a real puzzler. Or else my brain has just overcooked in the heat and humidity. >I still feel that if the terms were not appropriate for the index then >they should not have been used in the text. I agree with you here. The editor should have consulted with the author while the book was being written and demanded that these terms be left out. Or the author should have told the editor that he or she refused to use these terms in writing the book. This is an extremely difficult constraint under which to index. How did *you* handle "terms" versus "concepts"? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "But a lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it: it would be hell on earth."--George Bernard Shaw ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:24:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: fast, cheap, dirty, UNFRIENDLY! In a message dated 96-09-06 12:49:26 EDT, you write: > FAST INEXPENSIVE HIGH-QUALITY Choose any two. > I've added to this one. In my book, it reads: FAST INEXPENSIVE HIGH-QUALITY EMBEDDED WITH INDEXER-UNFRIENDLY TOOLS Choose any two. Jan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:02:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Price-fixing & Translators Assn. The American Translators Association (ATA) got into trouble with the Federal Trade Association (FTC) because ATA published recommended rates for translating services. ATA spent over $100,000 in legal fees. ATA agreed to not publish recommended rates. The entire episode has had a very chilling effect -- rates are not discussed at all at meetings of members, formally or informally. Clearly, ASI canot afford even the appearance of setting prices for indexing services. As it has been pointed out, INDEX-L is not associated with ASI. It would seem that discussion of rates on INDEX-L would have no affect on ASI. -nancy Nancy Mulvany ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:08:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Re: need help!! on length At 07:12 AM 9/6/96 -0400, Rachel wrote: >I've a book on population >control and I've >been given 6 pgs for the index on a 300 pg book with 2-5 entries per page. >According to Lori L's index estimator, and to my own calculations based on >what I've got so far, I'm going to exceed 6 pgs by a fair amt. If this is a pretty dense book, or even a book of average density, two to five entries per page doesn't sound like nearly enough. Is there any possibility of talking with the publisher and asking about having another signature bound in? Sometimes it's indeed possible, even at a late date; a couple of publishers who wanted a good index were able to add more back-matter pages for me in the past. Another possibility, although not always a great one, is to ask the publisher if index type size can be shrunk. Yes, you feel that you ought to include a magnifying glass with the book, but it's better than not producing a good index. >I can't >decide which important stuff to leave out. There's the problem--there's too much "important stuff" in the book! And you certainly can't help that! I think that everything you mentioned is going to be something that an index user will be looking for. You can try to cut as many cross-references as possible. If there are mentions of books, articles, journals, and the like, you might cut those. Delete personal names. Sounds pretty ruthless, doesn't it? Will you be able to use a run-in, rather than an indented index style? That'll save you some space. >The sample I was sent has strings and strings of undifferentiated locators. >Another way to save space, but makes for a fairly useless index. Tell me about it. I hate to say it, but when I've had requests for teeny indexes to really information-packed books, I've twice had to resort to indexes with strings of undifferentiated locators. I begged and pleaded for more space but couldn't get it. There was no way I could do a 500-line index to a 600-page-long book, for example! I talked with the editor about undifferentiated strings of numbers, and he said that'd be just fine. So, that's what I did. Thank goodness only two of that press's books needed this dreadful treatment. >PS Does anyone got a good remedy for poison ivy? I am HIGHLY allergic to poison ivy. I tried a whole buncha stuff from the drugstore and then simply had to go to my doctor and get a cortisone shot. Stopped the itching and the spread of the poison ivy really quickly. I've heard that dumping a bunch of uncooked oatmeal in your bath water can help. I'd still vote for the doctor visit for quick, quick, quick relief. You have my sympathy--both on the index AND on the poison ivy. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "But a lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it: it would be hell on earth."--George Bernard Shaw ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:08:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Editing Yep, off-topic again. But I've received a few private postings, asking about the information I'd gotten on editing organizations, Web sites, and the like. Here goes: 1. The Editors' Association of Canada has a Web site with many links to other spots. The URL is http://www.web.net/eac-acr 2. I received these URLs from the USDA Graduate School Correspondence Program: http://grad.usda.gov/corres/indexlnk.html http://grad.usda.gov/corres/listserv.html 3. Someone on copyediting-l compiled a list of writing and editing organizations. This person (I'm not sure if it's a male or a female person) can be reached at md2013@mail.eclipse.co.uk I've already sent e-mail to this address, and I'll be happy to forward the answer to index-l once I get it. 4. People might want to consider joining the Editorial Freelancers Association (EFA), which has a number of good benefits. The address is 71 West 23rd Street Suite 1504 New York, NY 10010 The phone number is 212-929-5400 I'd welcome any other information that anybody has. Hope this helps! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "But a lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it: it would be hell on earth."--George Bernard Shaw ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:08:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Rates and age >At 04:40 AM 9/6/96 -0400, X Woods wrote: > >And now people are bravely posting their ages! It's cos we're vintage! Well-aged! I kinda like the thought of reclining in some oaken vat and sloooooooooooowly getting to be my absolute best. (The heat and humidity HAVE gotten to me!) >Question: Can the person with the perfect rate range, in the perfect age >range, create the perfect index? Of course! Cos then that person will be perfect in every way! But now, how do we define the perfect rate range, the perfect age range, and of course, the perfect index? I *knew* there was a catch somewhere. Hazel, who's only slightly looped out >Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "But a lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it: it would be hell on earth."--George Bernard Shaw ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:39:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hazel blumberg-mckee Subject: Rachel's short index Oops! Forgot something! One publisher for which I've worked often had little room for back matter. So, the editor would ask me to go ahead and prepare the index, making it as long as it needed to be. Then, she asked me to mark, in green colored pencil in the margins, various headings I thought she might be able to delete if she really needed to save space. Maybe your editor will be amenable to this method. Then you can go ahead and make the index as long as it needs to be and give your editor the option of cutting. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net) "But a lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it: it would be hell on earth."--George Bernard Shaw ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Great Price-Fixing Conspiracy In a message dated 96-09-06 10:56:10 EDT, Bob wrote: > It seems to me that certain essential First-Amendment rights are involved > here, as well as common sense. > Index-L is not an official (or unofficial) forum of ASI, and compensation is > a reasonable subject for open discussion between independent, individual, > subscribers to this list. One can post and discuss one's rates, or not, as > one chooses, without fear of reprisal. That, as we all [should] know, is > one > of the preeminent advantages of living in America. > It is an uncertain world, but we do poorly if we customarily are governed by > fear. One should move prudently, of course, but La Rochefoucauld's > 17th-century observation still is valid: "The only security is courage". Bob, Your post is absolutely awesome!!!! It was better than caffein for getting my blood stirring this morning and I agree with you entirely! Because this is an international list, perhaps I should add to your statement about "advantages of living in America"--"or any other country that has or is establishing a tradition of individual freedom". (There, now I think I've gotten most, if not all, of us under this umbrella. ;-D) And thanks for that gem of a quote from La Rochefoucauld! It's along the lines of an even more forceful statement made by someone in the American Revolution that those who would trade liberty for security receive nor deserve neither. I'd like to add that, in the same spirit of freedom we've been displaying here in discussing and posting our rates, that the idea is not to impose some sort of group-think on the indexing community. I can speak only for myself here, but one of the advantages of being a freelancer is to not have to march to the beat of someone else's drum (except to that of meeting individual clients' requirements, but even that is the result of a freely made choice to work with a specific client). To express dismay at indexers charging 99-cent store rates is not at all the same as challenging or, even worse, trying to infringe upon their essential right to do so. With apologies to Voltaire (though he'd probably agree), while I strongly disagree with those rates, I'll defend to the death the right of individuals to charge them. This, IMHO, is directly opposite the concept of price-fixing (and especially the legally-enshrined Milk Processor Board rate *floor* I mentioned in what was intended to be a rhetorical, thought-provoking device, but came off merely sounding naive. ;-D). Price-fixing is totally incompatible with the concepts of individual liberty and free trade, IMHO, while publishing our rates in an exercise to inform the world what is customary and reasonable is not, but is instead a bold expression of these same freedoms. It's part of the whole information-setting-you-free thing. Furthermore, while this point may be more a philosophical than a practical consideration (risking sounding naive again), I don't believe that *true* price-fixing can exist in a totally free market as individuals are free to set whatever price they wish. I'm not going so far as to say that monopolistic practices don't exist, but when they do, it is when individuals are not inherently free for one reason or another to establish prices below what is mandated by either some governmental or organizational body (to which all in the industry must belong!). That is not at all the case nor the intent here. If antitrust action were indeed brought to bear against us, as against the translators, it would be by enemies of free speech, freedom of association, and free trade, IMHO. BTW, some of these thoughts were inspired by a great private message someone sent me about this whole rate discussion (though she probably didn't expect it to create this monster ;-D). I haven't asked her for permission to quote publicly from it, so I baldly ripped off the gist of what she said about why she became a freelancer (which I strongly agree with) and am sprinting with it (the monster). Anyway, her message opened my eyes to how this whole discussion could be interpreted by us fiercely independent types in the indexing community, a camp in which I'm firmly planted--in case someone has still missed that. For making me think about that I thank her! (Those of you who aren't as radical about these things as I am, blame me, not her. She was only the spark which started this "wildefire".) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical & Scientific Indexing > > Bob Richardson > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:59:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Ideal Index? NOT (a summary) In a message dated 96-09-06 11:12:33 EDT, Janet wrote: > .... which is: The argument I've stated, and which others seem to agree > with, each stating it his/her own way, is that indexing is a creative > process, and, therefore, the index cannot be deemed perfect or ideal, nor > can > it be measured against a standard. Minimum standards, yes. But not ONE > STANDARD. We all can tell you what a bad index looks like. But to speak of > "ideal" is another matter. > > No. My point is that this is a creative work. Each index is a product of > its creator's intellect, interacting with the material to be indexed, > bringing the sum total of his/her learning, life experience, unique way of > thinking, etc, to it. There will be no way to compare or judge, no standard > for "ideal." Great points, Janet, that I'd like to take a step further! Being that our products are indeed creative works, would we even *want* to actually create an "ideal" index--even if all conditions conspired to enable us to do so? Once an artist, and we indexers are artists, decides that a work is perfect or ideal, creativity is thereafter DEAD. There is no longer any impetus to improve that particular work, or any others in the future for that matter when one has created "perfection". Thus, to decide that one has created an "ideal" index is to squelch any future attempts at improvement of ones indexing skills and talent, leading to stasis. Even so, stasis is only a temporary, illusory state in our entropic universe, IMHO. Utopias stagnate and devolve into dystopias. Thus, ones skills must either deteriorate or one realizes that they have not reached the "ideal" after all and begins the creative process anew. The ideal is something to be avidly strived for, but heaven help you if you realized you've reached it. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing and Philosophizing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:05:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: food for thought OK, everyone. I got more suggestions on what to do for poison ivy than what to do for my indexing problem. As Baby Sinclair would say, "What's that mean?" (Anyone know who Baby Sinclair is?) Really, thanks for all your help. More suggestions are still welcome. I've left a msg for my publisher telling of the problem, so hopefully I'll get more room. Thanks again many times. You guys are great! Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:14:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Macs in Publishing This amusing anecdote might be of interest to indexers, since many of us are familiar with this publisher. It was posted to a Mac list on the net. Re-posted with permission of the author. Regards, Larry Harrison ------------------------------------------------------------------ >Hi all- I just couldn't resist this topic. Nancy and I were fortunate >enough to tour Microsoft Press in Redmond, WA along with our managers. >They are one of the largest book publishers on the West Coast with annual >sales of over $60,000,000. > >While walking past all the office doors I noted that everyone had two >computers on their desk. I asked the Publisher/CEO why two computers? He >said every office automatically gets a PC with Windows, if the employee >submits a requisition for a Macintosh they get one. So I asked him which >one does everyone use the most. He and the employees with him all laughed >and said they'd rather not answer that question. It seems most of the >books Microsoft Press publishes on how-to use Windows are done on a >Macintosh. > > Dan Martin > > >That Patchwork Place, Inc >Publisher of America's Best Loved Quilt Books > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:11:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: beginners rates and getting experience n response to the problem of beginning indexers bringing down rates, I advise my students to get experience by volunteering for their first job. While they should NEVER work for free for a publisher, I encourage them to contact local volunteer agencies such as a shelter or index a church cookbook or help out at a town meeting or some other situation where they would not be replacing a paid indexer. This enables the newcomer to gain experience (and contribute to the community) without bringing down the rates for all freelancers. Thanks very much to everyone who posted their rates. I am going to raise the rate I recommend to beginning students to $2.50. Susan Susan Holbert INDEXING SERVICES 24 Harris Steet Waltham, MA 02154-6105 617-893-0514 susanh@world.std.com "Training workshops and videos" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:55:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: need help!! on length Hi Elinor, Elinor to the rescue again. This is the one you referred to me. I just sent Joel email telling him I was having trouble with length. He already said he'd go down a point size if nec. I told him it wasn't going to be the most comprehensive index in the world. OTOH, I think I over-index anyway, so manybe this is a good exercise for me. > Poison ivy too? Not a good week for you! Seems like it's always something with me! So far I have had some physical problem during every index I've done. PI is the least of them! I've gotten more suggestions on what to do for PI than how to shorten the index. I got PI because 2 stray horses showed up in our yard from around the corner, and in taking them home we walked through a PI patch. I did wash off but obviously not well enough. Could have been much worse. How many people do you know who've had stray *horses* come to their house? Thanks again and again and again!!! Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:43:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daveream@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Politically correct The idea of politically sensitive concepts brings to mind the story of the prim and proper old lady who chastised kids going by her house whistling dirty songs. Dave ;-) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:20:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elspeth Pope Subject: My off-indexing philosophy The recent messages on Index-L have followed an interesting progression from indexing terms - to political correctness - to what is AARP - to what I perceive to be a totally dismal view of growing older. An invitation to AARP, at 50+, is not synonymous with being invited to take to your rocking chair/wheel chair/invalid bed. It is also not the same as an invitation from the Grim Reaper. It does not come with instant senility, arthritis or other infirmities. By adding years to your life, you will come to realize that more problems are lived through than solved - so you stop stressing yourself out. As a Stein cartoon once pointed out: Public opinion no longer concerns me. How true! Now you can forget all the "shoulds" and "oughts" and other peoples expectations and consider your own needs, without guilt. As one who just this week added another year to her life and can proudly claim 70, this is my view. I look forward to adding another ten years or so. Maybe then, between indexing assignments, I will find enough time to begin to raise Llamas.--Elspeth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:30:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: Translators price-fixing case This is only a guess, but perhaps translators were at more risk of being sued by the U.S. Government specifically because the government employs more translators than anybody else does. (I don't know that that's true, but it seems logical.) There must be hundreds of translators working in Washington D.C. and environs, as well as those who work from elsewhere. If anyone knows of a comparable concentration of indexers, I'd like to hear about it. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:36:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Nelson Subject: Re: Politically correct To all, I have been reading with much interest, the posts this week on politically correct terms, and since I, too am a member of AARP, wondered if I was to ultimately be called a senior citizen, a senior, elderly, or just plain old. (Uh oh, I used the "O" word.) I read one post that mentioned AARP frowned on the use of the word "elderly" because of the idea of fraility that could be associated with that word. That came as quite a relief, as I certainly didn't want to be considered frail. Today I received the AARP Newsletter and darned if on the very front page, AARP itself didn't use the word "elderly". Now we're in trouble! Does anyone, in the face of this new and confusing evidence, know exactly what the politically correct, AARP-accepted terminology is for those of us past the minimum required age of membership? Another frail elderly person just wanting to know. I must close now, I'm late for my tennis lesson. Linda Nelson Sedillo Hill Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:54:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Price-fixing I've tried to keep out of this one, but can't avoid it any longer. There is a large and very defensible difference between publishing suggested rates and publishing salary surveys. Salary surveys ask what has been charged in the past (year or years), and this is published in an organization's newsletter or magazine. This won't get you in trouble because it doesn't suggest that anyone charge according to the findings. All that's said is our members have charged this much in the past. And how they've charged. Other data are ususally included, such as breakdowns by region, years of experience, subject specialties, etc. A good model is the Special Libraries Association biennial salary survey. (Might be annual now.) So- if people are willing to disclose what they have charged and how in the last time period, ASI would have the basis for a research article on the (recent) past practices of the members. All ASI has to do is NOT say that these are suggested rates. (In fact, they might not even be the rates any particular subset of the Society *would* recommend. You use the information as you think it fits your situation.) Of course, the issue doesn't arise in the context of this list, since it isn't owned by ASI. (Climbing down from soapbox) See ya'll around! Neva < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@bga.com voice/fax +1.512.244.2767 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:00:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: rates error Hmmm, regarding rates, now what do I do? I no longer think of myself as a beginner, though I don't call myself an expert, either, by a long shot. I made a bunch of cold calls about a month ago and as a result got on 2 publishers' approved indexers list. No assignments yet but that's OK. One of them said, "we pay $1.50 per page." I said something like "I don't normally work for less than $2.50 per page" and he said, "well, our books are very light reading and require very light indexing." I agreed to their rate. Now I see I should not have done that, but on the other hand, I haven't agreed to an index for them, so there is time to correct the error. Any suggestions on how to handle it if and when they offer me an assignment? I truly hope that someday soon I will be able to offer help to others to make up for all the help I've asked for and received. Rache Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Salary Survey All, As a member of the ASI Salary Survey Committee, I can tell you that an ASI survey draft is in preparation, and this survey will take place in the next 6 months (I hope). If any of you have copies of salary surveys that other organizations have used, I'd love to see a copy. Please send any such material to: Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing 4839 East Greenway Road, Suite #366 Scottsdale, AZ 85254 Thanks in advance! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:26:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jinjer Azuree Subject: Re: indexing school newspapers ?? What I indexed and also created a retrievable database for was not a school newspaper per se but a substantial newsletter created by a teaching institution related to science. Don't know if that helps. What is your particular question perhaps I can help. Since you might unsubscribe I've included a direct response- hope that's okay. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:58:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: need help!! on length Hi Rachel: In addition to the good recommendations from Elinor and Hazel I'd add that if you can determine fairly closely what the line length (in characters) of a printed index line will be you will have a guideline by which to estimate how much you need to limit the length of your entries. I hope your poison ivy ain't so bad that yer gonna needan ocean-nah, bum bum, bum bum, a' calamine lotion-nah, bum bum, bum bum, [so] you'll be scratchin' like a hound, ba-bum, bum bum, bum bum, the minute you start to mess around-- [with] poison ivyyy, poison ivyyy, ['cause] late at night when you're sleepin' (or indexin' instead of) poison ivy comes a-creepin' a-row-ow-ow-ound-- if you don't go and get your cortisone shot. I get it bad too. Cold showers help momentarily (with sleepiness too). At least you know it _will_ go within a couple of weeks and you can set your mind to that. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:40:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Trans-border work You could always shame the editor into a more reasonable stance by saying, "If this sort of thing is not really in your domain, I'd be happy to speak with your accounting people directly and get it all straightened out." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:40:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Per-entry rates Several of you have posted per-entry rates. Can you tell us what you count as an entry? Does the following count as 1, 2, 4, or 8 entries? high culture vs. popular culture, 30, 73, 155-56, 215 popular culture vs. high culture, 30, 73, 155-56, 215 Thanks a bunch. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:52:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexing school newspapers ?? While helping a local author get his ducks in a row before publishing his book, I had occasion to use newspaper indexes of both a medium-sized city (100,000) and university (30,000). The city newspaper index was by subject only, so forget the relevance of a reporter's byline! The university, with a 50+ year history, microfilms the student newspaper without indexing it at all. Neither experience is desirable, and you can bet that lack of money and staff time are responsible. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:03:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: donating unpacked books In all probability, gifts of used books to public libraries will almost always be given to the Friends of the Library for sale at their next community event. Before becoming a librarian, I unthinkingly gave my (what is now a never to be replaced) collection of popular records in excellent condition to a local library in a pre-moving effort of largese. Couldn't bear to just throw them out. But I soon came to realize how foolish that gift was. Maybe the library made 50 cents, but my treasures never came close to a cataloger or borrower. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:14:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Price-fixing & Translators Assn. AHA! The translators published RECOMMENDED rates. That's the part that is price fixing. Individuals' discussing rates is not price fixing, nor is ASI's salary survey, which is publishing statistics or summaries or charts of what practitioners are charging. However, if ASI said, take a look at these rates and consider charging similar rates, that is price fixing. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services