From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 29-JUN-1996 06:11:29.53 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606A" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 06:11:31 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:23:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators In a message dated 96-05-31 17:34:48 EDT, Do Mi wrote: > >Lynn wrote: >> >>I agree that a headnote would have to be used to explain any scheme for >>indicating multiple mentions on a page, however, I always wonder how often >>index users even see headnotes or even look for them. Even as a professional >>indexer, I never think to look for one when I land in an index on a page >>other than the first, despite having used them in my own indexes on rare >>occasion. >> >Oh dear, Lynn, I've done the same thing! What does this mean??!! >Of course, research tells us that most users don't know that there might be >two indexes and don't know what "see also" means, either...I don't quite know >what to do with this information...is our existence useless after all??? > Do Mi Do Mi, Well, my dear, I don't quite know what it means either, especially considering that an ever growing segment of the population is too illiterate to even read a high school diploma, let alone use an index. (See also my response to Sonsie where I talk about a particular scholar.) Maybe if we put ourselves into the mindset of the monk-illuminators of the Dark Ages who kept the flame of knowledge alive, we'll continue to find a reason for getting out of bed in the morning until the next Age of Enlightenment (aside from indexing whatever we have inhouse simply because, Everest-like, it's *there* and someone at least wants an index to it). ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:23:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Win95 In a message dated 96-05-31 19:02:22 EDT, Sarah wrote: >I've had no problem running any software that is compatible with the current >versions of DOS in the Win95 environment. There is no doubt whatsoever that >Macrex will run okay; to be absolutely sure, you might want to choose Shut >Down... from the Start button and turn on the radio button that restarts the >computer in MS-DOS mode. I've had a few crashes and bugs here and there >while running DOS apps from the MS-DOS prompt without totally exiting out of >Win95. I found that Macrex runs quite nicely in a DOS window in Win95 (except for that weird thing with hitting the F5 key in Group mode suddenly shutting it down). Plus, as Dick mentioned with Cindex, Macrex launches right smartly from a shortcut to it on the Win95 desktop. Another cool thing that I like about running Macrex under Win95 is it's not totally out there in the cold, dark DOS environment. Under Win95, I can copy and paste from Macrex to the Windows clipboard (important for posting index snippets to Index-L ;-D). Plus, the Win95 toolbar is right there at the bottom of the screen, so I can always see what time it is, the phase of the moon (yep, I got this little thing that constantly shows the moon's phase right next to the time), I can scroll the Macrex screen using the mouse (within limits), and have immediate access to everythiing else running at the same time mousewise. No Alt+Tab necessary. And this is all running Macrex in a full window with no apparent loss of screen real estate. > >As far as transferring files and programs is concerned...be aware that not >all your Windows 3.x applications will be compatible with Win95. The only >16-bit (i.e., Windows 3.x) app I've found that runs flawlessly on this >platform is FrameMaker. Lots of others won't even load or launch, and of >those that launch, a great many crash and freeze the system before you've >clicked and dragged half a dozen times. Those that don't run verrry >slooooowly. Now that's really interesting, Sarah, because I haven't had any problem running 16-bit apps under Win95. CorelDraw, WinWord, AOL, etc. all run with no problem. The only app that complains about Win95 is WinZip for Win3.x, but that's only because it's actually smart enough to detect that it's running under Win95 and nags me to download the Win95 version every time I launch it!!!!! (But it works anyway.) Even weirder, the only app that I've had that's crashed Win95 itself was FrameMaker!!!! (I prefer running it on the 486 anyway because it has 24Megs of RAM vs. my Pentium's 16Megs.) Also, my 16-bit apps haven't taken a performance hit by running them under Win95 as yours have. But it may be that the speed of my Pentium, its EDO RAM, cache size, amount of VRAM, etc. make up for it. So, I haven't felt the need to get Win95 versions of my software. Of course, there are so many variables that go into application performance that it isn't all that surprising that our mileage has varied so in this regard. >One positive thing I can say >about my experiences so far with Win95 is that I've not once seen that >dreaded alert box telling me I've generated a General Protection Fault and >must save my work in a different file, etc. ...nor the idiotic, brain-dead, blue screen that appears when you hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete in Win 3.x implying that there's nothing wrong with the system (so why'd you give the three-finger salute in the first place, eh?) but if you insist (by saluting again), it'll reboot. ;-D BTW, Sonsie (who started this all by asking), you gotta check out Win95's Free Cell game that I've become so hoplelessly addicted to that I'm on the verge of deleting it from my system. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:23:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators In a message dated 96-05-31 18:08:32 EDT, you write: > >Lynn, your suggestion about a headnote is well-taken. More indexes need >them; and if they have them, then somebody somewhere gets to standardize >the terminology to suit. (Maybe we professionals?) Then "somebody" will >decide on how to indicate several references on a single page, many >passing references on a range of pages, etc. Sonsie, Actually, I was agreeing with Cheryl who originally stated that headnotes are essential for explaining schemes for indicating multiple references on a single page. ;-D But, that would be wonderful to include in an indexing standard that most of the indexing community would agree on. > >As it is, I use headnotes fairly frequently because I am usually called >upon to index illustrations (usually I use italicized page numbers) and >defined terms (for these I prefer bold). So right there, I'm "training" >the reader in a new system of looking things up. Add a few other indicators, >and voila! You have a serious (and helpful) headnote. Now, this is a great idea. Have you had to convince your clients, BTW, to go along with this? Or do they simply accept and print your headnotes as is? For example, one of my clients wants figures and tables indicated by an italicized "f" or "t" following the locator and so I have to follow their style guide on this. (I'm not complaining about that, just making a point.) > > >Nonetheless, if we're thinking in terms of paradigm-switching (wherein we >actually come up with some solutions to these sorts of problems and create >some new standards for terminology), headnotes are an essential partner in >the endeavor. Then we can teach, however subliminally, the reader how to >more accurately use our index. >(BTW, the above discussion really only applies to serious books and >serious indexes. It's quite doubtful that the next biography of Marilyn >Monroe will need an extensive headnote and reference system.) Now, if we could do this *and* percolate it down to the general public we'd really be cooking! Sometimes I wonder, though, even about scholars, being that one said my detailed index to his book would be useful for the reader but was wasteful of forests!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Gee, all along, I should've been counting trees rather than worrying about something as insignificant as the index user! At least the publisher, who actually paid for the darn thing and the paper it was printed on, liked it.) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing > > >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From owner-index-l@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Fri May 31 18:08:20 1996 >Return-Path: owner-index-l@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Received: from wnt.dc.lsoft.com (wnt.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.7]) by >emin20.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA12999; Fri, 31 May 1996 >18:08:01 -0400 >Message-Id: <199605312208.SAA12999@emin20.mail.aol.com> >Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by wnt.dc.lsoft.com (LSMTP >for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.8DF3D860@wnt.dc.lsoft.com>; Fri, 31 May >1996 18:04:04 -0400 >Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:08:21 -0700 >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >Sender: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >From: Sonsie Conroy >Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators >X-To: Indexer's Discussion Group >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >In-Reply-To: <199605310032.RAA16792@spork.callamer.com> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 22:37:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: Win95 Lynn writes: >Now that's really interesting, Sarah, because I haven't had any problem >running 16-bit apps under Win95. CorelDraw, WinWord, AOL, etc. all run with >no problem. The only app that complains about Win95 is WinZip for Win3.x, but >that's only because it's actually smart enough to detect that it's running >under Win95 and nags me to download the Win95 version every time I launch >it!!!!! (But it works anyway.) Even weirder, the only app that I've had >that's crashed Win95 itself was FrameMaker!!!! (I prefer running it on the >486 anyway because it has 24Megs of RAM vs. my Pentium's 16Megs.) Also, my >16-bit apps haven't taken a performance hit by running them under Win95 as >yours have. But it may be that the speed of my Pentium, its EDO RAM, cache >size, amount of VRAM, etc. make up for it. So, I haven't felt the need to get >Win95 versions of my software. Of course, there are so many variables that go >into application performance that it isn't all that surprising that our >mileage has varied so in this regard. Well...I just took delivery on a Pentium Pro (that's 200MHz) with 32 MB EDO RAM, 512K pipeline burst cache and 2MB VRAM a little over 3 weeks ago. All the 16-bit apps you mention crashed on my new system--except for Frame. I wonder if there's been a patch to the OS for the new ultra-fast chips or something. Also, I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to build in such a bugaboo so that they could sell more Win95-format software upgrades to the existing user base. Gearheads unite... ;-) Sarah |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:16:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Computers in Publishing Etc. I am sure that few of us index for statistically significant samples of the industry, but two of my regular clients have submission specs that say "DOS disk" even though the machine they put the disk into when they get it is a Mac. (I only found this out by accident.) Some of the postings here make it clear that Macs deal with DOS disks a bit easier than DOS machines deal with Mac disks. These clients find so many DOS-based indexers they are in the habit of saying DOS, and they use the disks with no problem. Another regular client asks for Mac disks. Independent research shows the Mac having a 47% market share in the commercial publications industry. I wonder if that isn't a factor in the decision to produce a Mac version of CINDEX even before a Windows version. As for the flounderings and troubles at Apple, they are greatly exaggerated by the trade press, who love a "fallen superstar" story. Apple shipped 1.3 million computers and generated $3.1 billion in revenue during the quarter ended 12/29/95, more than ever before in its history. Apple's annual revenue is more than twice that of Microsoft. As to software applications, 1995 unit sales of Macintosh software increased by more than 25% over the prior year, according to the Software Publishers Association. Attendance at Apple software developer's conferences is up, and more new developers have joined the program in the past year than ever before. Of the thousands of commercial applications for Macintosh (most of which are found in the Windows CD-ROM section of your local store) over 1200 are optimized for Power Macintosh and over 600 are Mac-only. Yes, Apple has announced big losses. However, Mercedes-Benz lost over 3 billion dollars last year; did you hear the press advising people not to buy their cars? They will be around for a long time; so will Apple, and for similar reasons. 90% of Macintosh customers buy Macs again when making a second purchase, and it's not hard to figure out why; a December 1995 PC World (yes, *PC World*) study ranked Apple the #1 personal computer vendor for reliability and service. What about Apple's "belated" Internet strategy? Well, Macintosh is the number one Web authoring platform, according to Chicago-based consulting firm Mirai; 41 percent of the 550 Webmasters surveyed created graphics for their World-Wide Web site using Macs. The Mac OS is the second most popular OS platform for World Wide Web servers, according to a Georgia Institute of Technology survey. (UNIX was first.) More than 20 percent of the servers on the Web are Macintosh systems. Apple's biggest and most important asset is its customers. Over 22 million Macintoshes have been shipped since 1984, and Apple leads the industry in overall customer satisfaction for desktop computers, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 1995 Desktop Personal Computer End-User Satisfaction Study. That customer base and brand strength cannot evaporate overnight. Macintosh certainly has a majority share in my household, where we have five Macs and one IBM PS/2. I look forward with great enthusiasm and anticipation to the release of CINDEX for Macintosh. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Computers in Publishing Etc. In a message dated 96-06-01 02:19:35 EDT, you write: >Independent research shows the Mac having a 47% market share in the >commercial publications industry. I wonder if that isn't a factor in the >decision to produce a Mac version of CINDEX even before a Windows version. Indeed, that very explanation was given at a Cindex demo I attended in Denver. Those of us in the audience were freelancers and Windows users and wondered why the Windows market was not more compelling than the Mac. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 22:26:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Win95 In-Reply-To: <199605312300.QAA23477@spork.callamer.com> Sarah, I just got Corel loaded and running under WIN 95...it appears to be doing just fine (and hugely faster than I'm used to). However, I think you're right that it would be wise to upgrade as soon as possible, which I will be doing. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 22:25:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Windows 95 In-Reply-To: <199605312231.PAA20480@spork.callamer.com> No, indeed, Dick, you gave me some very helpful information. Thanks! I printed it out for future reference, should I ever manage to get this thing up and running. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Win95 In-Reply-To: <199606010523.WAA17124@spork.callamer.com> Lynn, as usual, you made my morning! "Three-fingered salute," indeed! ::SNORT:: Thanks, everbody, for the wonderful advice and information. I've been printing out these posts as they come up and tucking them into a file folder while I complete the transition from one computer to another. I got a handy-dandy software program (called FastMove) which has helped immesurably to copy multi-megs of files from one to another (through a parallel port cable setup), which has eased the transition quite a bit. I'm still sitting here, though, with two computers in front of me while I nail down the installation of things. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:46:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators In-Reply-To: <199606010523.WAA17128@spork.callamer.com> Lynn writes, [snip...] > Now, this is a great idea. Have you had to convince your clients, BTW, to go > along with this? Or do they simply accept and print your headnotes as is? For > example, one of my clients wants figures and tables indicated by an > italicized "f" or "t" following the locator and so I have to follow their > style guide on this. (I'm not complaining about that, just making a point.) Actually it is I who usually propose the scheme to =them=. Most of the time, my client hasn't a clue that readers (especially student) who are looking for a definition of a term are really helped by having them called out in bold (which is a lot easier to read than some little symbol in the entry itself). This is especially true in books without glossaries. And, if I must index illustrations, it's important to make it clear that the information on that page is graphical, not in words. And so on. I usually preface this discussion with a client by saying, "It's my standard practice to do X. Is this okay with you?" That usually takes care of it. [snip...] > Now, if we could do this *and* percolate it down to the general public we'd > really be cooking! Sometimes I wonder, though, even about scholars, being > that one said my detailed index to his book would be useful for the reader > but was wasteful of forests!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Gee, all along, I should've been > counting trees rather than worrying about something as insignificant as the > index user! At least the publisher, who actually paid for the darn thing and > the paper it was printed on, liked it.) Well, Lynn, there's no accounting for taste! ;-> I'm up for working on some sort of standardized indicator system, if anybody else is. After all, nobody was born knowing how to read the stock tables, and SOEMBODY had to come up with that arcane and difficult system (always printed in 4-point type). We can surely do better. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 18:43:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Philosophical views of users In a message dated 96-05-31 23:13:14 EDT, you write: >I come to indexing from a background in psychology and training, and maybe >that warps my perception of users, but my subjective impression from using >indexes myself and from discussing indexes with other people is that typical >users are pretty careless, and use indexes carelessly. If an entry directs >them to page 27 they'll have a look on page 26 and page 28 as well, just in >case, and if they're looking for information on Newts they'll probably have >a look under Lizards and Salamanders as well. On the other hand, if they're >looking for, say, 'Colour matching' and 'Color matching' is a few lines away >in the index they may well miss it altogether. So my view is that any such >trivial 'failures' on the part of the indexer are swamped by the much >greater 'failures' in the way that the index is typically used, which in >turn are often compounded by 'failures' in the way the book is organised. Jonathan, Those examples sound to me like index users not really trusting the indexer rather than careless use of an index. And having had too many experiences with poorly constructed indexes (e.g., actually *finding* different information under totally synonymous headings, especially without "See also" references covering the indexer's behind in the absence of precise vocabulary control), they've been inadvertently "trained" to do so. After all, just last night, an indexer friend pointed out to me that AOL's online help "index" has "The modem was unable to get a carrier signal" filed under "The". ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 18:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Useless efforts? In a message dated 96-05-31 21:32:11 EDT, Allison write: >>>Of course, research tells us that most users don't know that there might be >two indexes and don't know what "see also" means, either...I don't quite know >what to do with this information...is our existence useless after all??? > Do Mi<< > >Does the fact that most people don't understand theology mean that there >should be no priests? > >;-) >Allison Allison, There's some kind of Jungian significance here. I came up with my monk-illuminator analogy while yet unaware of your theology-priest analogy. In responding to Do Mi's existentialist crisis, are we intuiting some kind of Indexer as Monk-Priest/ess universal archetype? ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 19:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: Massachusetts Chapter meeting, Sat. June 8 I'm planning to attend and looking forward to it I already have directions, so no need to send them. See you on the 8th. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:49:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Useless efforts? Lynn wrote:>> There's some kind of Jungian significance here. I came up with my monk-illuminator analogy while yet unaware of your theology-priest analogy. In responding to Do Mi's existentialist crisis, are we intuiting some kind of Indexer as Monk-Priest/ess universal archetype? ;-D << I suppose that if indexers are priests (interpreters), then that means authors are gods! That must be the reason they act like that! Or wait, how do publishers fit into this..... Allison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing Lynn said: >However, a few >times, clients have inadvertently sent *me* files on Mac-formatted disks >which indeed causes a problem because PCs can't read them. Clients have >re-Fedexed me files when that happens, but of course you lose a day with >that.) Another solution is saving files, including from Macrex and probably >Cindex, as .RTF files. (I also have WordPerfect, but no one has asked me for >WordPerfect files.) An alternative would be to take the file to your nearest computer-services bureau (or whatever it's called), which can translate the document and put it on the right sort of disk for you, for a small fee. In response to someone else's post about Apple's future, I work on a PowerCurve (a PowerMac clone) and can give clients either Mac- or DOS-formatted disks and just about any word-processing format they want. Even if my clients stop using Macs, I don't see why that should affect me in any way if I prefer the "Mac." Then Lynn said: >industrial-strength dedicated indexing software is written for PCs. Yes, I know MacChurch congregants will respond that you can install >a DOS emulation card in a Mac to run Macrex and Cindex. ;-D But, if you're >outfitting your business from scratch and don't have some compelling need for >a Mac, why clunk along with an emulation? HyperIndex is written for the Mac (and clones) and, having used it for several months, I would have to say that it is also industrial strength. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Theresa Perkins Subject: Re: Useless efforts.lol >Or wait, how >do publishers fit into this..... If you're using a Judeo-Christian paradigm: the arche-angels of course! In greek mythology I suppose they would have to be the serpants and demons. -take your pick .....lol ;D jp Take your pick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:37:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Theresa Perkins Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing F.Y.I. You can now get macs with pc chips. Please note: this is not "emulation". It is not "like" having a pc in your mac - it IS having a pc in your mac! And which, to the best of my knowledge, is different than using software (e.g. SoftWindows) that can emulate a dos/windows enviornment. On macs with low memory and limited HD space this "translation" can cause a bit of a time drag. However, I am running SoftWindows on my PowerMac and never experienced any delays or other problems using the DOS version of Cindex (or any other pc based sw for that matter). I must admit that I did not buy my Mac to do indexing. I decided on it for the graphics and multimedia capabilities, which is where the Mac really shines. just my 2cents jp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:15:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leslie Frank Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing Carol, I used In>Sort for the mac for a while (4 1/2 years), and much prefer Cindex now that I am set up on PC. However, I have a friend who is thinking about HyperIndex. Could you give me a more detailed analysis of it--what does it do that you like, etc.? Have you worked on any other indexing programs? If you like, email me privately. Although others may be interested as well. Thanks Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:28:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Stark Subject: NYU course In Nancy Mulvaney's message of May 9 re teaching indexing, she mentioned a course at NYU. Has anyone taken this course, and if so, would you consider commenting on it either for the list, or to me personally? Many thanks, Caroline Stark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:48:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Useless efforts? In-Reply-To: <199606020450.VAA03964@spork.callamer.com> > There's some kind of Jungian significance here. I came up with my > monk-illuminator analogy while yet unaware of your theology-priest analogy. > In responding to Do Mi's existentialist crisis, are we intuiting some kind of > Indexer as Monk-Priest/ess universal archetype? ;-D << > > I suppose that if indexers are priests (interpreters), then that means > authors are gods! That must be the reason they act like that! Or wait, how > do publishers fit into this..... Well, if we're doing the Jung/Tarot thing, the author would probably be the Magician and the indexer the Hierophant, not the Priest[ess]. And the reader would be the Fool... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:12:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leslie Frank Subject: Re: Useless efforts? Allison, Doesn't that make the publishers saints?????? Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:45:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Posting Netiquette I have noticed several occasions recently when folks have quoted entire, lengthy messages, including header info and large sig blocks, when posting to this list. Please take a few additional seconds to delete all but pertinent remarks to which you are actually replying when you post with a quotation. The extra bytes might seem insignificant, but when sent to the entire list, hence multiplied by 1000 or more, the supply of electrons in the universe might notice. The readers certainly do. Yours for better Internet manners, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:00:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Useless efforts? Lynn wrote:>> There's some kind of Jungian significance here. I came up with my monk-illuminator analogy while yet unaware of your theology-priest analogy. In responding to Do Mi's existentialist crisis, are we intuiting some kind of Indexer as Monk-Priest/ess universal archetype? ;-D << I suppose that if indexers are priests (interpreters), then that means authors are gods! That must be the reason they act like that! Or wait, how do publishers fit into this..... Allison I'm sending two copies of this out--I'm having some kind of mail problem. On AOL, am I supposed to click 'Reply' or 'Reply to All' when writing back to Index-L? Either way I seem to get non-delivery notifications. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Useless efforts? Lynn wrote:>> There's some kind of Jungian significance here. I came up with my monk-illuminator analogy while yet unaware of your theology-priest analogy. In responding to Do Mi's existentialist crisis, are we intuiting some kind of Indexer as Monk-Priest/ess universal archetype? ;-D << I suppose that if indexers are priests (interpreters), then that means authors are gods! That must be the reason they act like that! Or wait, how do publishers fit into this..... Allison (Disregard this part--I'm trying to work out my mail problems.) This is the second copy, sent as 'Reply to All'. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:29:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996 Hi Everyone, Now that I know some of your faces it's more fun to read the list! My question is about invoices. I hope this isn't a boring topic, or one recently covered that I missed while without computer. I'm using a Mac, BTW. I was using a little shareware invoicing program but it got corrupted and now I can't find it. I don't want a big accounting program. Any suggestions for generating one's own invoice? How do you all format it? How do you break down your charges? For example, I'm now working with a publisher for whom I download via FTP the book, print it myself, and go from there. I am to list separately the printing expenses, for which I might or might not be reimbursed. (That's another whole discussion that I'll get to in a sec.) How do you set up your invoices? Do you put your social security numbers on them? I ask for checks to be payable to my business name. I used to have a separate line saying "Please make checks payable to Directions Unlimited. Is that what you all do? Do you put xx number of pages (or entries) at $xx, total $xx, or do you just put $xx for services rendered, or what? Mac people, what invoicing programs do you use? OK, now for the paid-for-printing-problem. This company wants to save Fedex charges by using the ftp method. I know others of you on the list work for this company as well, and have different but similar problems. So I figured that my paper/printer/time expenses are .16 per page, which could be as high as 50 or 60 bucks. The page rate is very low, and non-negotiable with this company, though they do pay for non-indexable pages, which helps a bit. I don't want to drop the company as it's my first steady client, so I'm going to put up with it, but if anyone has any ideas for goosing them into paying expenses or going back to the old Fedex system, I'd appreciate it. I think this is a timely topic, as more companies, esp. computer companies are soon going to expect us to use the ftp method. I think we need to figure out how to deal with it. Or at least, I need to figure out how to deal with it. Help!!! Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:19:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996 Hi Rachel, I use Microsoft Publisher's invoice template for my invoices (I customized the template with my logo, etc.), put my SSN on the invoices, add "Balance due in 30 days" at the bottom, have a line that gives the name of the publication indexed with the total number of indexable pages on the second line multiplied by the charge per page, and also add any other expenses that might have come up (including FedEx charges, etc.). The total for each item is in the adjacent column at the top and then the grand total is at the bottom. I keep a hard copy and a disk copy. It's simple, I always (so far) get paid on time, and it works. What could I want? Cynthia D. Bertelsen >Hi Everyone, > >Now that I know some of your faces it's more fun to read the list! My >question is about invoices. I hope this isn't a boring topic, or one >recently covered that I missed while without computer. I'm using a Mac, >BTW. I was using a little shareware invoicing program but it got corrupted >and now I can't find it. I don't want a big accounting program. Any >suggestions for generating one's own invoice? How do you all format it? How >do you break down your charges? > >For example, I'm now working with a publisher for whom I download via FTP >the book, print it myself, and go from there. I am to list separately the >printing expenses, for which I might or might not be reimbursed. (That's >another whole discussion that I'll get to in a sec.) How do you set up your >invoices? Do you put your social security numbers on them? I ask for checks >to be payable to my business name. I used to have a separate line saying >"Please make checks payable to Directions Unlimited. Is that what you all >do? Do you put xx number of pages (or entries) at $xx, total $xx, or do you >just put $xx for services rendered, or what? > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Chilmark, Mass. > rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ > Cynthia D. Bertelsen Technical Services Newman Library Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24060 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:44:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996 In a message dated 96-06-03 07:17:54 EDT, you write: >Any >suggestions for generating one's own invoice? How do you all format it? How >do you break down your charges? I use a Windows program called "My Advanced Invoices." It was realatively cheap (@ $50?) and has a neat feature: you can type in your invoice description and it is smart enough to key on any occurrence of the "at sign (@)" and multiply the closest numbers on either side of it to compute the total. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether you bill by page, entry, or hour. You record them all the same: 300 pages @ $3.00 1460 entries @ .69 43 hours @ $35 Now the bad news. This feature is in Version 2.1.1. Subsequent versions have "improved" this feature out of the product. > > How do you set up your invoices? The program provides a setup. > Do you put your social security numbers on them? If the client requests it. Not all do. >I ask for checks >to be payable to my business name. I used to have a separate line saying >"Please make checks payable to Directions Unlimited. Is that what you all >do? I personally don't, but it's not a bad idea. > Do you put xx number of pages (or entries) at $xx, total $xx, or do you >just put $xx for services rendered, or what? Mine usually read: "Prepare index for whatever_the_title, 300 pages @ $3.00 >I think this is a timely topic, as more companies, esp. computer >companies are soon going to expect us to use the ftp method. I think we >need to figure out how to deal with it. Or at least, I need to figure out >how to deal with it. Help!!! I agree. I see more companies cutting their costs by offloading them on us. For instance, how do you handle a local client who wants to stop FedExing and have you pick up the proofs? Each pickup is 30 miles round trip and takes an hour. Each project requires 3-5 pickups. I'm thinking of offering one pickup for free and charging for the rest. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators >>(BTW, the above discussion really only applies to serious books and >>serious indexes. It's quite doubtful that the next biography of Marilyn >>Monroe will need an extensive headnote and reference system.) Forgive me, I'm not sure who originally wrote that, but I'd like to comment. On the topic of headnotes and lengthy strings--I thoroughly suspect a bio of Marilyn Monroe could well require both. JFK and/or Oliver Stone might have very lengthy strings of page references I imagine, and there might easily be both photographs and non-photographic artwork, which would require differentiation in their page references. Let's not be so hasty in how we judge the books we index! I like the idea of standardized headnotes, and if a standardization is of high quality, it would apply to *all* books, no?! (with some modification, granted) What's a "serious" book, anyway? I'm reading Ann Rice's _Memnoch the Devil_ right now, which, okay, it's fiction, but, it's down right serious in parts, especially if you're talking about role playing in our industry! --I'm learning more about archangels and theology that I did when I read Kierkegaard, frankly, ;-D my humble .02, Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:01:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Invoices Rachel, All of what Cynthia said -- SS # on invoice (must be, as far as I'm concerned), terms (30 days, or whatever). I don't use an invoicing program. I created my own invoice on MS Word, in other words, in word processing, and use the template I've created, saving it on disk to another name (one name per client, so after an invoice is paid, it is copied over, and I don't have a million in memory). I also print out a hard copy for myself, which goes into my receivables file. When the check arrives, I pull the stub off and staple it to the invoice, marking it paid and the date received. My wording is as Dick described his. Indexing preparation for (title), (author) XX pages at YY per page = and carry the total to the right hand column FedEx charges = and put that total in the right hand column TOTAL line at the bottom under the right hand column I've never had to deal with the ftp delivery situation you've dealt with, fortunately, so I can't address that. As for the pick-ups Dick has done, I've not had to deal with the either, but I wouldn't make 5 trips for nothing! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:01:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pick-ups Dick, I'd have a problem with 5-6 pick-ups for one job. Too much time to spend giving it away for free. That's almost an entire workday (on short days)! I would definitely discuss a trip charge, or a mileage charge, or you'll be out money each time you work for this client! Even charging at the standard 30 cents per mile, the 5 trips at 30 miles would bring you $45 more. Not enough to cover the time, but at least it informs the client that you're on a business basis and your time is valuable. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Long locator strings Usually just a lurker, I can't resist adding a comment to the recent thread about long undifferentiated strings of locators. The last index I did for the institution where I work was an index to a comprehensive annotated bibliography about our product, Art and Architecture Thesaurus. Locators represented bibliography entries, rather than pages, and the annotations were quite dense in many cases, a great many concepts packed into one paragraph. Not so strange, considering that each annotation was an abstract of an entire article or paper. I found that in several cases I had to have many more locators than generally recommended, as many as ten in a few instances, because a particular topic, represented by a heading: subheading construct (e.g., "USMARC formats: Subject Added Entry-Faceted Topical Term field 654") was written up in ten separate papers which were included in the bibliography. Try as I did to follow the rule of thumb of seven page locators at most, I found myself exceeding it, because so many bibliography entries dealt with the same topic, even that topic subdivided into different aspects. So the rule of thumb was broken (better the rule than the thumb). In this case, I think that the nature of the material being indexed caused, at least in part, a need for longer than recommended strings of locators. Also, to give myself another excuse, the committee in charge of the overall publication wanted the index as short and concise as possible, and called for the elimination of most cases of subheadings that had only one locator, and the listing of all these after the general heading. Undoubtedly I over-indexed in my first draft, and this lead them to be extremely ruthless in their call for editing. Still I think the final index went a little too far in the opposite direction, leaving out some detail that would have been valuable to readers. But perhaps most inexperienced indexers get this feeling when their careful, articulate subject analysis is deemed too closely articulated. No articulation for articulation's sake in the real world! A short comment on the comment Lynn Moncrief got from a scholar about the length of the index she compiled to the scholar's book, that it was useful to the reader but called for the destruction of too many tress. Could one not have replied that the same could be said, even more strongly, of the book itself? It might be a good and useful book to all who read it, but, oh, the trees! If wasting paper is a primary concern of the scholar, why did he/she publish in hard copy at all? Why not publish electronically? Oh, but then, how to disable the cruel reader from downloading and printing out? I think the scholar has no case in equity, into which one can come only with clean hands. By the act of writing, he/she has augmented the demand for paper somewhere, in some quantity, and demand for paper of course leads to tree cutting (also tree planting I believe!). What a couple of extra pages of index added to each copy of the book contributed to the extend of the damage initiated by the scholar is a moot point. But is it advisable to answer a client/author back in this way? Does the practical, survival-motivated freelancer swallow her/his counter argument and smile serenely? I do all my indexes in-house, so am a tyro when it comes to dealing with clients. I suspect that , while a freelancer may have more freedom in creating the indexes (more naivety?), he/she must be more diplomatic in voicing opinions to the clients than I must be in dealing with coworkers, superiors, and distant committees (who overall did a good job.) Alison Chipman achipman@aat.getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:29:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996 In-Reply-To: <9606031118.AA20716@mx3.u.washington.edu> The latest version of Excel (the one in Office 95) has a perfectly lovely invoice template which can be customized for your business. (I have also used the invoices in Quickbooks, but like this one better; it's more flexible.) All you need to do is choose NEW under FILE to get to the invoice template, customize it, and save under a different file name. And yes, I do always include my SSN on invoices, since it's the business ID on 1099 forms. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Rachel Rice wrote: > Now that I know some of your faces it's more fun to read the list! My > question is about invoices. I hope this isn't a boring topic, or one > recently covered that I missed while without computer. I'm using a Mac, > BTW. I was using a little shareware invoicing program but it got corrupted > and now I can't find it. I don't want a big accounting program. Any > suggestions for generating one's own invoice? How do you all format it? How > do you break down your charges? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:42:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Invoicing, ftp charges Rachel Rice asks about invoicing on a Mac. I use Microsoft Excel for invoicing since it does the math, totals etc. and there was a pretty nice invoice template among the sample files that came with MS Excel 4.0. That's what I use. I always say "make checks payable to" and include my tax number, the name of the book, and itemize page charges and other charges. I also include "Terms net 30." or sometimes 15 if it is not a large corporate client, and spell out the late charges they will incur if slow paying. If my bank account performs properly this year I am considering buying QuickBooks. I already use Quicken for both personal accounting and business, but QuickBooks has some tracking and reporting that might help as my business grows, and it has very powerful invoicing stuff. It's also cheaper than Excel; I use Excel since I already had Excel before I started indexing. As far as getting books via ftp and printing the pages yourself, that's a service for the convenience of the client and you should be paid. $0.16 per page sounds kind of cheap, in fact. I don't know how to make a client behave fairly if their parents didn't already teach them better, and if you can't afford to drop them you are stuck. Keep up the marketing efforts and look forward to the day you can turn down work from those skinflints and tell them why! Best of luck, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:50:19 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ollie Cornes Subject: Windows Help Indexing Hi all, I am looking at the possibility of bringing in an external indexer to index the WinHelp help system for a large graphics application. The help system is 1,000 topics and around 90,000 words. The index will be a full-blown WinHelp 4 multi-level index. What is the best route to finding a good company to do the work? Is there a directory of companies somewhere? The company should preferably be UK-based - is there a UK equivalent to the ASI ? If there are any companies out there offering these services, please feel free to get in touch. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Ollie. -- Xara Ltd. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:40:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Useless efforts? >>Doesn't that make the publishers saints?????? Leslie<< Let's see--authors/gods create, indexers/priests make sense out of the creation, and publishers/saints make this creation available to the public--at a profit. Hmmm. Maybe publishers are evangelists. Allison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:57:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ftp charges Rachel, I wholeheartedly agree with Larry about looking forward to the day when you can say "no" to this client, and tell him/her why. Sometimes the person you're dealing with has his/her hands tied, and even if they agree you've got a point about the rate, or a particular reimbursement, they can't do anything to change company policy. That's a take it or leave it situation. In that case, my strategy is to keep marketing myself, getting new clients, who I start out "right" as far as higher rate or better terms, and then replace a client at the bottom of my list, such as the one you're involved with who may not reimburse you for the supplies used and time incurred in printing the files sent over ftp. This may be your best bet. Use your frustration to spark a marketing blitz and get rid of the client at the first opportunity. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Philosophical views of users >> On Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:36:57 +1000, you said: J> I come to indexing from a background in psychology and training, and J> maybe that warps my perception of users, but my subjective impression J> from using indexes myself and from discussing indexes with other people J> is that typical users are pretty careless, and use indexes carelessly. If J> an entry directs them to page 27 they'll have a look on page 26 and page J> 28 as well, just in case [...] Beg to differ. I'm not a careless index user, but I routinely look on pages before and after those listed in the index because there seem to be so many index-creation packages with off-by-one errors. That's why I like the type of embedded indexing you find in document-formatting packages like "texinfo"; you can move an index entry anywhere you like, and it will point to the right page because the entry is a legitimate text formatting command. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:17:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anthony Tripido Subject: AD: Directory of TOP/KEY Personnel Attention all Information Industry professionals and professionals looking to break into the industry . . . 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We have been representing leading database producers and information services since 1958. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:31:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: IRS Mileage 1996 According to an item in Parade Magazine, the mileage rate for 1996 is 31 cents. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:24:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Adele Sarkissian/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Re: Philosophical views of users >> On Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:36:57 +1000, you said: > I come to indexing from a background in psychology and training, and > maybe that warps my perception of users, but my subjective impression > from using indexes myself and from discussing indexes with other people > is that typical users are pretty careless, and use indexes carelessly. If > an entry directs them to page 27 they'll have a look on page 26 and page > 28 as well, just in case [...] Beg to differ. I'm not a careless index user, but I routinely look on pages before and after those listed in the index because there seem to be so many index-creation packages with off-by-one errors. That's why I like the type of embedded indexing you find in document-formatting packages like "texinfo"; you can move an index entry anywhere you like, and it will point to the right page because the entry is a legitimate text formatting command. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:39:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Angela Howard Subject: CINDEX or MACREX? I don't want to start a CINDEX vs. MACREX war, really I don't. In fact, one of the things I like best about this list is that the people on it don't get into wars. But still, I find myself in a situation where I must make a decision which one to get without having the time to try them out. From what I've heard on this list, they have pretty much the same capabilities, and it's just a matter of style as to which one you like better. If that's true, I'm not worried. I can adapt to different styles and user interfaces, and I'll end up liking whichever one I get used to, provided the interface design is reasonably friendly. But I want to make sure that's the only difference. Does anyone know of anything CINDEX can do that MACREX cannot, or anything MACREX can do that CINDEX cannot? That's really the only criteria I want to make my decision on. I've looked through the brochures, and it looks like they can both do all the same things, only in different ways. (I also plan to call up both companies and find out which ones plan to come out with a Windows/GUI interface sometime in the future.) I'm going to be running Win95, if that makes any difference. Thanks for all your help. This is a great list! _______________________________ Angela M. Howard Technical Writing and Indexing America Online, Inc. angela@tools.gnn.com (805)882-2350 x126 _______________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:05:53 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Graebner Organization: SLIS, University of Oklahoma Unsubscribe from this listserv ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:52:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing In a message dated 96-06-03 07:15:45 EDT, JP wrote: >You can now get macs with pc chips. Please note: this is not "emulation". It >is not "like" having a pc in your mac - it IS having a pc in your mac! I stand corrected. ;-D Thanks!!! >just my 2cents Worth much more than $.02 to me!!!!! Receiving the right info is invaluable, IMHO. Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:52:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Useless efforts? In a message dated 96-06-03 07:17:23 EDT, you write: >Well, if we're doing the Jung/Tarot thing, the author would probably be >the Magician and the indexer the Hierophant, not the Priest[ess]. And the >reader would be the Fool... > > =Sonsie= ROFL, Sonsie!!!! But considering the wonders that they have to work with some manuscripts, wouldn't the editor be the Magician? ;-D And to tie this with another analogy, Index-L would have to be the Tree of Life in the Tarot metaphor. ;-D Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:52:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Useless efforts? In a message dated 96-06-03 07:17:24 EDT, MrsIndex@AOL.COM (Allison Brooks) writes: >I'm sending two copies of this out--I'm having some kind of mail problem. On >AOL, am I supposed to click 'Reply' or 'Reply to All' when writing back to >Index-L? Either way I seem to get non-delivery notifications. > > Allison, Are you getting oodles of mysterious nondelivery messages from sysop@celestat.com too? I had thought that maybe they were for something not associated with INDEX-L. Anyway, both buttons work for me. Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:52:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Long locator strings In a message dated 96-06-03 11:15:50 EDT, Alison wrote: >A short comment on the comment Lynn Moncrief got from a scholar about >the length of the index she compiled to the scholar's book, that it >was useful to the reader but called for the destruction of too many >tress. Could one not have replied that the same could be said, even >more strongly, of the book itself? It might be a good and useful book >to all who read it, but, oh, the trees! If wasting paper is a primary >concern of the scholar, why did he/she publish in hard copy at all? >Why not publish electronically? Alison, I love your logic, having entertained the same. ;-D (BTW, being that energy is indestructible and electrons are considered energy from one perspective, they're infinitely recyclable. ;-D) >By the act of writing, he/she has augmented the demand for paper >somewhere, in some quantity, and demand for paper of course leads to >tree cutting (also tree planting I believe!). I've heard something similar about paper companies replanting, plus that the forestation level in the U.S. is actually very high right now compared to some point in the 1800's. I'm still searching for a figure I saw somewhere on that because this was the second time in less than a year that I've been royally flamed about being "wasteful" of forests. The first was a letter to the STC Intercom editor in response to an embedded indexing article I wrote (which I checked for technical but not political correctness) in which I said that one must constantly reprint an index if not using dedicated indexing software, paper being cheaper than one's sanity. >But is it advisable to answer a client/author back in this way? Does >the practical, survival-motivated freelancer swallow her/his counter >argument and smile serenely? Actually, I didn't smile serenely, though I did use humor with my client--the publisher (while silently gritting my teeth at the author). I told my client that this was the second time this year that I've been attacked on this (citing the instance that I related above) and that I'd better go out in my yard, hug a tree, and pay obeisance to Gaia or something. (I did also apologize for the fact that he got negative feedback, however spurious IMHO, about one of my indexes. Now *that* I felt bad about!) This being an email exchange, he laughingly wrote back that I'd better watch out or I'd find an Earth Firster chained to my printer. ;-D However, had it been the author himself, I would have cited my own paper recycling practices (including that my family is getting real tired of notepads with draft indexes on the back of them), that I use a printer called "Ecosys", that I actually love trees, etc., etc., and said something along the lines of my index ensuring that readers would be able to readily access all of the salient points he took such pain to make--at such length. To be honest, I don't know how successful I would have been at diplomacy with him, because I'm starting to get a bit tired of blindsided about forests and trees, publicly accused of "trampling on" someone's vision for a new world, outright character assassination, etc. by folks who forget that humans are also part of the environment when I'm focusing on issues of index quality. (Thanks for the opportunity to unload this, though I'm sure this wasn't quite what you expected. ;-D) But, totally aside from issues such as this where I'm already foaming at the mouth, yes, we freelancers do have to be diplomatic. I believe also that humor, rightly applied, and genuine empathy go a very long way in establishing and maintaining good relationships with clients. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing > I do all my indexes in-house, so am a >tyro when it comes to dealing with clients. I suspect that , while a >freelancer may have more freedom in creating the indexes (more >naivety?), he/she must be more diplomatic in voicing opinions to the >clients than I must be in dealing with coworkers, superiors, and >distant committees (who overall did a good job.) > >Alison Chipman >achipman@aat.getty.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:52:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Invoices and FTP In a message dated 96-06-03 07:17:58 EDT, Rachel wrote: >BTW. I was using a little shareware invoicing program but it got corrupted >and now I can't find it. I don't want a big accounting program. Any >suggestions for generating one's own invoice? How do you all format it? How >do you break down your charges? Rachel, I created a glossary (Word 2.0) or autotext (Word 6.0) as a blank invoice form. (I'm sure other word processing programs have similar features for this type of thing.) Anyway, my invoices contain my letterhead with the word INVOICE in bold under it so that it'll catch the editor's attention. Following that is a set of tables for easy navigation for entering information into cells. The first row contains the invoice number. (I create these from the year, the project number I assigned to the index, and an invoice sequence number for invoices in that year.) Next is the invoice date. After that is "Terms" (net 30 with 1.5% late fee for payments mailed after 30 days of invoice date). Below that is a block for SSN (Tax ID Number). Despite the fact that my SSN appears on every invoice, every year, at least one publisher contacts me to ask me for my SSN or Tax ID number. Below that is a block for "Bill To:" in which I enter the editor's name and publisher's address. The bottom half of the sheet is devoted to a table that contains a column for "Description" and an "Amount" column. In the description column, I enter "For indexing..." (name of book and author), give the breakdown of the page count showing the nominal page count from which I subtract blank and other nonindexable pages, then give a total indexable page count @$x.xx/indexable page. (This allows the editor to verify my charges if they wish.) Opposite the total indexable page count@.... line, I give the amount calculated from that in the Amount column. If necessary, I itemize any additional charges (shipping, late charges, etc.) in both columns under that. Then in a bold, black-outlined block labeled "Total Amount Due" I enter the total in bold 12-pt type which readily stands out. The last line of the invoice, centered in bold, says "Please make checks payable to TECHindex & Docs". However, despite that line, some publishers insist on making their checks payable to Lynn Moncrief. (You'd think they'd be happy to use my business name as that is further proof to the IRS for them that I'm not an employee. Go figure.) Like Cynthia, I keep a hard copy and a soft copy on my hard disk (though I eventually get around to purging the soft copies after the invoice is paid). And like Janet, I keep the hard copy in a receivables file, then stable the check stub to it when paid (transferring it to a "paid" receivables file). The advantage of keeping a soft copy is that, if you must send a second notice, it's easy to add "Second Notice" (I use a large Stencil font), late charges, and "Amount Past Due" (bold, 12-pt type) to the original form without having to type everything in again. > > >OK, now for the paid-for-printing-problem. This company wants to save Fedex >charges by using the ftp method. I know others of you on the list work for >this company as well, and have different but similar problems. So I figured >that my paper/printer/time expenses are .16 per page, which could be as >high as 50 or 60 bucks. Aiiish!!!!!!! No dice! FTPing files to me is OK, but I always clearly tell the publisher that I also need a hard copy, going into an explanation of how the human brain can absorb material much more easily from the printed page than from the screen. (By the time I'm done with this spiel, I can hear them nodding their heads and going "Uh huh" in agreement at least just to shut me up. ;-D) And this includes embedded indexing projects where *you* need the electronic file! I haven't had this problem myself so far, even with software companies that are more likely to have FTP capabilities and want embedded indexing. However, being that you know other indexers who work for this publisher, have you considered asking them how they handle this? If everyone working for them tacked on printing charges to their invoices then you wouldn't be out there twisting in the wind if you did so. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:11:53 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: mysterious nondelivery messages I, too, have been getting these mysterious nondelivery messages from sysop@celestat.com. I don't get oodles but enough to set on edge the teeth of my systems folks. I had not been able to narrow them down to INDEX-L so am grateful for this information. I can't use the buttons because my gateway doesn't work with a BITNET address. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Invoices In-Reply-To: <199606031504.IAA18610@spork.callamer.com> I use a program called One-Person Office, which I love but which is no longer manufactured nor supported. It has a collection of customizable index templates, it keeps a data file of all clients, contacts, etc., that you can use to generate mailing lists and labels, it keeps copies of all invoices sent to clients (which you can archive periodically), and so on. The data can be imported into Quicken or several other accounting packages, so that you can do your taxes more easily as well. My invoices always include my SS number (whice does not preclude some people from calling EVERY year asking for it at 1099 time). I normally include the terms of the project (taken from the contract)...such as X pages @ Y dollars = Z due. However, if there were no terms, I might just write something like, "copyediting, $500." This is especially true of non-indexing work I do (which includes editing, copywriting, graphic design, etc.). I could put terms on the invoice, but I usually don't. I've found that if you tell somebody a bill is due in 30 days, they take 30 days to pay it! So why encourage that? OTOH, with a few clients I have delivered the job in person and have not handed it over until they handed ME a check. We've had such a good discussion recently about terms and payment that I'm reviewing my current practices to see how I can improve things. I don't have much difficulty with slow-pays in indexing, but occasionally seem to get caught up in bureaucratic B.S. that annoys me a LOT. I keep a paper copy in the job file, and I archive my computer files at least once a year (in addition to backing them up every time I make a new invoice). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:21:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators In-Reply-To: <199606031424.HAA15735@spork.callamer.com> > On the topic of headnotes and lengthy strings--I thoroughly suspect a bio of > Marilyn Monroe could well require both. JFK and/or Oliver Stone might have > very lengthy strings of page references I imagine, and there might easily be > both photographs and non-photographic artwork, which would require > differentiation in their page references. Pilar, I was the one who originally wrote the comment, and after I'd sent the message I realized I should have been clearer about what kind of biography I was talking about. A serious biography of ANYBODY is going to require a detailed index with many sub- and even sub-sub-entries. But the "fanzine" type paperbacks that come out two weeks after a celebrity has died usually don't even HAVE indexes (nor do they need them). > Let's not be so hasty in how we judge the books we index! > I like the idea of standardized headnotes, and if a standardization is of > high quality, it would apply to *all* books, no?! (with some modification, > granted) Yes, that was my thought originally...that a standardized reference system for all the bells and whistles in an index would be a Good Thing, no matter what kind of book the index appears in. > What's a "serious" book, anyway? > I'm reading Ann Rice's _Memnoch the Devil_ right now, which, okay, it's > fiction, but, it's down right serious in parts, especially if you're talking > about role playing in our industry! I've read several fictional works that I desperately wanted an index for. The one that comes to mind immediately is _The Forsyte Saga_ by John Galsworthy, which encompasses something like five volumes extending over nearly 100 years in the life of one huge family. Oy! Trying to track down what happened to a character that was sent to Australia as a remittance man is a horrible job, and I've read the darned thing three times now. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:34:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Pick-ups In-Reply-To: <199606031504.IAA18616@spork.callamer.com> Janet says, > > I'd have a problem with 5-6 pick-ups for one job. Too much time to spend > giving it away for free. That's almost an entire workday (on short days)! > > I would definitely discuss a trip charge, or a mileage charge, or you'll be > out money each time you work for this client! Even charging at the standard > 30 cents per mile, the 5 trips at 30 miles would bring you $45 more. Not > enough to cover the time, but at least it informs the client that you're on a > business basis and your time is valuable. > Any client that is close enough (30 miles) to expect personal service like that but who is not willing to pay for FedEx can certainly spring for good old USPS. Priority mail is the way to go if the destination is that close. If it absolutely positively HAS to be there overnight, then pay the FedEx rate. We're not operating a delivery company, we are providing professional services and we ought to remember that. Doing the client an occasional favor is one thing. Becoming an errand-runner to save them a few dollars is quite another. Hmpf. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:22:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Mysterious non-delivery messages Is -everyone- getting these celestat non-delivery messages? I've been assuming that it was just me, and that my messages were not being posted. I wonder if there is some way that one can get one's own postings in the mail, as proof that they -were- posted. Once I send mine off, I don't know where they've gone unless someone replies to (or flames) something I've said. Allison Brooks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:38:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Mystery Messages In-Reply-To: <199606032135.OAA00367@spork.callamer.com> I thought I sent this the right place the first time, but apparently not... > HAS somebody been able to nail these messages down to INDEX-L? I didn't > know we were all getting them (yes, I'm among the lucky ones as well). But > I belong to several lists, and correspond privately with many individuals. > So what I did was write the sysop and ask. I got a short message saying, > in effect, "I haven't got the slightest idea of what this is about." Not > much help, huh? > > FWIW, I haven't noticed any non-appearance of my expected mail on any > list, nor have private correspondents mentioned missing email. But > because I write a LOT , I can't be absolutely sure everything is > getting through. > > Does anybody have any more of a clue than this? (BTW, I'm glad somebody > else is having these mysterious cyber-hiccups.) > > Sonsie > [sconroy@slonet.org] > > On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Lonergan Lynn wrote: > > > I, too, have been getting these mysterious nondelivery messages from > > sysop@celestat.com. I don't get oodles but enough to set on edge the teeth > > of my systems folks. I had not been able to narrow them down to INDEX-L so > > am grateful for this information. I can't use the buttons because my > > gateway doesn't work with a BITNET address. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:49:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gale Rhoades Subject: sysop@celestat.com Ahhhh... I couldn't figure out what these non-delivery messages were related to. Never occurred to me that they might be related to Index-L until I saw a note about it from Lynn. Is it only AOL'ers that are getting these or are other Index-L people getting them? Gale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:56:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: sysop@celestat.com Gale, Allison, Lynn, Sonsie, others, I too am getting non-delivery messages from sysop@celestat.com -- and I too am on AOL. ???? Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:59:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: sysop@celestat.com In-Reply-To: <9606032237.AA07404@mx5.u.washington.edu> I think it's a common problem which is specific to Index-L, since I get all my other Listservs on my University account in digest format, and this is the only one I've replied to since the celestat messages started appearing. Yesterday I tried replying to one of those to ask them to please clean up their act and THAT one bounced as well. Amazing how long we've all suffered in silence... Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Gale Rhoades wrote: > Ahhhh... > > I couldn't figure out what these non-delivery messages were related to. > Never occurred to me that they might be related to Index-L until I saw a > note about it from Lynn. Is it only AOL'ers that are getting these or are > other Index-L people getting them? > > Gale > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:17:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Angela Howard Subject: Need pricing help! I'm in somewhat of an awkward position on my first paid indexing contract and could really use some advice. I was shown a book that I was to index that was estimated at 200 pages long, and I told them I would charge $3 a page. I will get the final pages this week, so I haven't started yet. But, it turns out they have re-formatted the book so the pages are smaller and have more white space, so the same information is now 350 pages long. Well, I don't feel I can charge $3 a page anymore, because my contact got permission to hire me based on my estimate and figuring that the total cost would be about $600. I don't feel I can justify changing my estimate when the amount of information is the same, so I'm thinking of (just for this one job) to charge $2 a page to keep their costs more in line with my original estimate. However, I don't really want to set a precedent that my rate is $2 a page, because I don't think that's enough in general. The best solution I can think of is to bid this job at a flat rate of $700, so that I can avoid having to state a page rate of $2. What do you all think about this? I'd be very grateful if you could reply as soon as you can, since I have a meeting with them to go over the contract tomorrow. Next time around (believe me, I've learned my lesson), I want to look at final proofs and give a page rate based on the density of the material on each page, which will be a much more flexible system in situations such as this. _______________________________ Angela M. Howard Technical Writing and Indexing America Online, Inc. angela@tools.gnn.com (805)882-2350 x126 _______________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:24:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucas A Baker In-Reply-To: <9606032145.AA06944@bushido.iconovex.com> Please delete this adress from the subscriber's list. Thank You. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:54:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: sysop@celestat.com In a message dated 96-06-03 18:59:35 EDT, you write: >I too am getting non-delivery messages from sysop@celestat.com -- and I too >am on AOL. I'm on AOL and I *haven't* been getting them! Somehow, I don't feel left out! Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:02:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: Mysterious non-delivery message Gale writes: >Ahhhh... > >I couldn't figure out what these non-delivery messages were related to. > Never occurred to me that they might be related to Index-L until I saw a >note about it from Lynn. Is it only AOL'ers that are getting these or are >other Index-L people getting them? > >Gale I'm getting 'em and I sure as heck ain't on AOL! My ISP has been unable to figure it out. Sarah |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:23:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Stark Subject: Re: sysop@celestat.com I'm not on AOL and I just received one of the sysop non-delivery messages. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 05:29:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Re: Windows Help Indexing There is certainly a UK version of ASI - in fact the (British) Society of Indexers is going to be 40 years old next year, and is the *original* Society of Indexers. Contact Elizabeth Wallis, the Registrar of the Society on elizwall@keware.win.uk.net Phone: 0181-940 4771 For general information on the Society contact THE SOCIETY OF INDEXERS 38 Rochester Road London NW1 9JJ Answerphone: 0171-916 7809 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 05:29:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Re: sysop@celestat.com No, Gale - I'm getting them too - in the UK! Drusila ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 00:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Getting Own Postings Back To see your own postings, send a message to the Listserv (NOT the posting address) with nothing in the message body except: SET INDEX-L REP (don't forget to omit your sig file) and Voila! You will receive copies of your own postings as they are distributed to the subscribers of the list. As for the non-delivery messages, my theory is that you get one back each time you post to the list if any INDEX-L subscriber's email address is not current, provider having trouble, etc. etc. You are listed as the sender of the message even though the Listserv is doing the transmitting, so you get the non-delivery. Anyone getting them who has not posted to the list? Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:13:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Block-Levor Subject: Re: Mysterious non-delivery messages Sometimes I get a "Re:" message without the corresponding original message. I used to think that the original message must have been personal correspondence, and the recipient thought the topic would be of general interest and decided to post the response to the list (after checking with the original message's author, of course). Maybe I'm actually a victim of the non-delivery goblins. Paula ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:23:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Re: e-mail address for (UK) Society of Indexers - CORRECTION In-Reply-To: Since I posted the message this morning (re Windows help indexing) I have discovered that the e-mail address I gave for Elizabeth Wallis (the Registrar of the Society of Indexers) is incorrect. Here is the corrected address: elizwall@kewace.win-uk.net Her phone number is 0181 940 4771 (international +44 181 940 4771) To recap, for those who didn't see the earlier message, the (British) Society of Indexers will be 40 years old next year (and is therefore the original Society of Indexers) and is alive and well! Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: tree planting/cutting In-Reply-To: <199606031957.PAA62868@rs8.loc.gov> Snippets from Allison and Lynn: > >somewhere, in some quantity, and demand for paper of course leads to > >tree cutting (also tree planting I believe!). > I've heard something similar about paper companies replanting, plus that the > forestation level in the U.S. is actually very high right now compared to > some point in the 1800's. Behind the hype from "environmentally concerned" paper companies, keep in mind that when they "replant" a forest, they replant only trees which are of commercial and economic value--fast growers, trees with the most valuable or desired lumber, etc. A "paper company" forest can never resemble or replace a "natural" forest with scores of different species of trees (if it were allowed to mature before being cut down again to begin with). While that makes good sense from a business standpoint, to boast that it is environmentally friendly is somewhat untrue--as though the chicken processing companies began boasting in ads that they were saving chicken species from extinction instead of simply admitting that they were running a business "harvesting" chickens. Look for the spin behind the message, esp. when businesses embrace popular causes! Your radical thought for the day brought to you by ... Sam Andrusko P.S. I doubt if I would have been very diplomatic in responding to the author's silly comment about the index. I would have asked why he was publishing a book then if he were so concerned about forests. And I am not opposed to paper company forests--but am opposed to the friendly impression they try to leave in everyone's mind about their operations in ads. They harvest trees, fine, just the way other farmers harvest wheat or corn, but they should not then imply in their ads that they are planting a natural forest when they are not--just as misleading as if a wheat farmer claimed to be planting a "field" (with beautiful images of grazing deer, twittering birds, and butterflies fluttering here and there) when all he is doing is planting wheat, a commercial crop from which he hopes to make a living. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:34:28 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: sysop@celestat.com I've been getting the messages from sysop@celestat.com for several weeks. I am not on AOL. Attempts to send a message to SYSOP get me another nondelivery message. Is there one of us out there with @celestat.com as part of their e-mail address? Lynn A. Lonergan llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:11:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Teresa A. Hudoba" Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996 Dick-- >For instance, how do you handle a local client who wants to stop FedExing and >have you pick up the proofs? Each pickup is 30 miles round trip and takes an >hour. Each project requires 3-5 pickups. I'm thinking of offering one >pickup for free and charging for the rest. I generally bill my clients by the hour--whether that hour is spent indexing or driving to and from their offices. Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:35:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: sysop@celestat.com In a message dated 96-06-04 01:10:31 EDT, larryh@MILLCOMM.COM (Larry Harrison) writes: >As for the non-delivery messages, my theory is that you get one back each >time you post to the list if any INDEX-L subscriber's email address is not >current, provider having trouble, etc. etc. You are listed as the sender of >the message even though the Listserv is doing the transmitting, so you get >the non-delivery. I think Larry's right. I just got my first sysop@celestat.com message, after I just posted to the list for the first time in quite a while. So I doubt that AOL has anything to do with it. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:36:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Getting Own Postings Back Larry, You wrote: >>To see your own postings, send a message to the Listserv (NOT the posting address) with nothing in the message body except: SET INDEX-L REP (don't forget to omit your sig file)<< What is my sig file and how do I omit it? I'm (obviously) not very up-to-date regarding computer terms. Allison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:03:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sulochana Ravi Subject: Re: Index-L Digest Hello folks, Is Index-l available in Digest form now? How do I change It to receive my messages in digest form? Thanks Sulo Ravi ravis@battelle.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:08:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jill Marie Ramacciotti [TEMP]" Subject: List nettiquite Although not a professional indexer, I subscribed to this list to stay current on any indexing information that I could in turn pass on to the team of 23 writers I work with here at Sun, all of whom self-index their work. Lately - especially in the past two days - the list has been cluttered with many non-indexing e-mails, enough that I am reconsidering staying subscribed. Could you please take any non-indexing threads off-line? I understand that some of you were having message return problems, and those are important. But please, if you want to respond to a comment from a post that is not going to enrich everyone on the lists knowledge or appreciation of indexing, respond directly to the postee. Anything to dimish the over 300 e-mails I already receive would be appreciated. Jill Marie Ramacciotti Technical Writer and On-line Help Developer SunSoft jmarie@velvet.eng.sun.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:14:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Mysterious messages and other things I too have received these messages and am looking into it. I assume that it is another internet glitch that will disappear with time. In the meantime just delete, delete, delete. To be sure that your message has been distributed, you need to let the listserv know that you wish to receive your own message. The default is *not* to send a message to the sender. To change the default, send the following message to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu (always use this address when sending messages to the listserv) SET INDEX-L REPRO Do not sign your name or put anything else in the body of the message. Now, I have a favor to ask. When you are having technical problems, please send a message directly to me, and not to the list. The reason for my request is that while I am not moderating the list at the present, I must still contend with bounced messages. Yesterday, there were 47 messages...I think a record...5 of which were about the mystery messages. At any time there are 5 to 20 addresses with problems (full mailboxes, hostname problems, internet gremlins, etc)...and that's not too bad considering that there are more than 850 subscribers. Every problematic address generates a bounced message...into my mailbox. So if we could limit discussion to indexing matters, it would help a little bit. Sorry to whine...I do like the liveliness of the discussion while the list is unmoderated. Great and useful discussions! I agree with whoever commented that the reason for the increased traffic must have something to do with the instant feed-back. I do not censor..so that must be it 8). I will leave the list unmoderated for now unless there is a great hue and cry to do otherwise. Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:55:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sandy Gallagher-EA, 774-0188, N9424-2" Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 31 May 1996 to 1 Jun 1996 I bill my clients by the hour also, whether editing, indexing, consulting, or delivering. That seems to be okay with them. I'm assuming that you're billing the client for the FedEx costs. So it would be a matter of negotiating with the client your delivery service by the hour or FedEx's delivery service. I don't think the client should be overcharged but I also think that you should not be denied that hour's worth of time that could be spent working on that client's or another client's project. Good luck, Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:55:56 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: list nettiquite? I'm not sure what "nettiquite" is but, as a new indexer, I haven't seen anything on this list that wouldn't add to _someone's_ "knowledge or appreciation of indexing". I'm impressed that you receive over 300 e-mails each day and understand that you wish to "dimish" that number. However, I do not want to have my correspondence restricted because of the volume you receive. A healthy interchange of ideas is always a positive thing and I usually find something to learn even in what you might consider "non-indexing threads." IMHO, I vote for people responding off-list when they like--not when someone else dictates they should. Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:15:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: sysop thing and ... I got one celestat sysop thing and I'm not on AOL. Thanks to all for your replies to my questions. I'm trying various suggestions to see what will work for me. I just found a shareware program to try. If it's useful I'll post a review of it. Thanks again, and any more ideas/suggestions are welcome! RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:06:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: tree planting/cutting In a message dated 96-06-04 07:53:48 EDT, Sam wrote: > They harvest trees, fine, just the way other farmers harvest wheat or >corn, but they should not then imply in their ads that they are planting a >natural forest when they are not--just as misleading as if a wheat farmer >claimed to be planting a "field" (with beautiful images of grazing deer, >twittering birds, and butterflies fluttering here and there) when all he >is doing is planting wheat, a commercial crop from which he hopes to make >a living. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:06:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Getting Own Postings Back In a message dated 96-06-04 01:10:31 EDT, Larry wrote: > >As for the non-delivery messages, my theory is that you get one back each >time you post to the list if any INDEX-L subscriber's email address is not >current, provider having trouble, etc. etc. You are listed as the sender of >the message even though the Listserv is doing the transmitting, so you get >the non-delivery. Larry, By golly, I think you're right about invalid email addresses among list subscribers! I seem to remember that being the explanation for nondelivery messages on an unmoderated list I used to subscribe to. Normally, we don't see them because Charlotte intervenes in the case of invalid subscriber addresses. (She personally asked me once about an another email account from which I susbscribed to the list because it bounced mail and Index-ellers noticed nary a ripple.) It just shows how meticulously she administers the list when she's here. ;-) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators -Reply Sonsie Conroy wrote, referring to a posting by Lynn Moncrief, >I'm up for working on some sort of standardized indicator system, if anybody else is. After all, nobody was born knowing how to read the stock tables, and SOMEBODY had to come up with that arcane and difficult system (always printed in 4-point type). We can surely do better.< This is an utterly wonderful idea, worthy of an official ASI-sponsored/administered project. Speaking as someone who in the course of terminology research work regularly scans indexes looking not so much for information on a concept but on term(s) used in the published literature to express that concept, I'd rejoice greatly at the institution of a typographical or other standard device to indicate that a given index term is defined at a specific page location. And, as Sonsie said, students, especially undergraduate, would be well served by such a practice. There is a whole set of basic types of information, both with regard to form of presentation (e.g., tables, illustrations) and information type (e.g., definition, passing mention, digressive or related comment) that could be considered to merit some sort of flag or signalling device in the index. So long as these *do* become standard, and not just more confusing or arcane symbolism, so that one needs to take a course in basic index reading. Common sense would have to prevail in the choice of what type or form of information is worthy of a special device. but doesn't it sound like a nifty idea? Go with it Sonsie! Alison Chipman, silent lurker getting more opinionated by the day achipman@aat.getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:06:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: tree planting/cutting In a message dated 96-06-04 07:53:48 EDT, you write: > P.S. I doubt if I would have been very diplomatic in responding to >the author's silly comment about the index. I would have asked why he was >publishing a book then if he were so concerned about forests. And I am not >opposed to paper company forests--but am opposed to the friendly >impression they try to leave in everyone's mind about their operations in >ads. They harvest trees, fine, just the way other farmers harvest wheat or >corn, but they should not then imply in their ads that they are planting a >natural forest when they are not--just as misleading as if a wheat farmer >claimed to be planting a "field" (with beautiful images of grazing deer, >twittering birds, and butterflies fluttering here and there) when all he >is doing is planting wheat, a commercial crop from which he hopes to make >a living. Sam, Like those oil company ads showing thriving marshlands around derricks. ;-D You made an excellent point about looking beyond the hype. However, the forestation levels I referred to came from a magazine article on environmental issues, not a paper or lumber company ad. And, as far as I remember, the author wasn't apparently an apologist for either type of company. I truly wish I could find it again so I could check and cite the source (also the biodiversity levels involved). If the source is indeed reputable, then we'd have another fact in our arsenal for countering silly comments lamenting forests being devoted to detailed indexes, in addition to the obvious points you and Allison made. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:54:00 BST-1 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: Re: list nettiquite? A 'healthy' interchange of ideas is not positive if one has no time to read all the e-mails. Some sorting is needed i.e. joining or contributing to other mailing lists for other subjects. After all, why do we make indexes if not to allow people to select input? I think keeping to subject is a reasonable request. A bete noir of mine is people who sneak in a controversial opinion on some off-topic subject, perhaps hoping people will not feel too free to respond. I am not entirely innocent myself, however. _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:58:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Green Subject: ISKO '96: Changes in registration procedure This message is being posted to several listservs. Please excuse any duplication. ** Registration procedures for ISKO '96 have changed, as indicated below. As a consequence the deadline for early registration has been extended to June 15, 1996. ** **************************************************************************** PROGRAM AND REGISTRATION MATERIALS INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KNOWLEDGE ORGANIZATION FOURTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE "Knowledge Organization and Change" July 15-19, 1996--Washington, DC, USA Co-sponsored by the Library of Congress Conference activities will take place in the James Madison Memorial Building, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Avenue, SE, except where otherwise indicated. The registration/information desk will be staffed 8:30am-3:30pm, Monday-Wednesday; on Monday it will be located outside the Digital Library Visitors' Center (ground floor, Madison Building), and on Tuesday and Wednesday, outside the Mumford Room (6th floor, Madison Building). Exhibits will be open 8:30am-3:30pm, Tuesday-Thursday. Monday, July 15 9:00-4:00, Digital Library Visitors' Center (Ground floor, Madison Building) Tools of Knowledge Organization: Discussions and demonstrations of online classification systems (Library of Congress and Dewey Decimal) and other digital initiatives and products 5:00-8:00, Madison Hall (Ground floor, Madison Building) Dewey 120th Anniversary Address, Fran Miksa, University of Texas at Austin, and Reception The sessions on Tuesday, July 16-Thursday, July 18 will be held in the Mumford Room on the 6th floor of the James Madison Memorial Building. Tuesday, July 16 8:45-10:10, Session A1, Sarah Thomas, chair Welcome and Keynote Address . Welcome and Introductory Remarks, Sarah Thomas, Ingetraut Dahlberg . Keynote Address, Roland Hjerppe, Linko ping University Library of Congress Classification . Bringing the Library of Congress Classification into the Computer Age: Converting LCC to Machine-readable Form, Rebecca S. Guenther, Library of Congress . Library of Congress Classification: Shelving Device for Collections or Organization of Knowledge Fields?, Jolande Goldberg, Library of Congress 10:10-10:30, Break 10:30-11:35, Session A2, Hanne Albrechtsen, chair Knowledge Organization in Cross-Cultural and Cross-Linguistic Settings . The Impact of Cultural and Technological Changes on Titles Content and Their Use in the Process of Information Retrieval, Snunith Shoham and Moshe Yitzhaki, Bar-Ilan University . Towards A Unified Medical Language in a Diverse Cultural Environment, (Marcia) Lei Zeng, Kent State University . Concept-based vs. Word-based Measures of Medical Information Transfer via English-Chinese and Chinese-English Translation of Medical Titles, Shaoyi He, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 11:35-1:00, Lunch 1:00-2:05, Session A3, Pat Molholt, chair The Role of Relationships in Knowledge Organization . Standardization of Inter-Concept Links and Their Usage, Pat Molholt, Columbia University . Development of a Relational Thesaurus, Rebecca Green, University of Maryland . Analysis of Non-Hierarchical Associative Relationships Among Medical Subject Headings (MeSH): Anatomical and Related Terminology, Carol Bean, Columbia University 2:05-3:10, Session A4, Pauline Cochrane, chair Knowledge Organization in the Online Environment, I . Hypertext and Indexing Languages: Common Challenges and Perspectives, Javier Garcia Marco, University of Zaragoza . Visual Dewey: DDC in a Hypertextual Browser for the Library User, Pauline Atherton Cochrane and Eric H. Johnson, University of Illinois at Urbana- Champaign . Classification to the Rescue--Handling the Problems of Too Many and Too Few Retrievals, Karen M. Drabenstott, University of Michigan 3:10-3:30, Break 3:30-4:15, Session A5, Ia McIlwaine, chair Management of Change in Knowledge Organization Schemes . Change as a Problem of Classification System Development, Eduard R. Sukiasyan, Russian State Library . New Wine in Old Bottles: Problems of Maintaining Classification Schemes, Ia C. McIlwaine, University College London, Universal Decimal Classification 4:15-5:15, Session A6 Software Demonstrations . SimSum--A Multimedia Simulation of Professional Summarizing, Brigitte Endres-Niggemeyer, Polytechnic of Hannover . Electronic Dewey vs. DDC 20 in Print: An Exploratory Study in Building Numbers, Yeon-Kyoung Chung, Ewha Woman's University . Using Text Retrieval Software to Create Hypertext Databases: An Experiment at SISA, Gobinda G. Chowdhury, Addis Ababa University 7:00-9:00, Banquet, Supreme Court of the United States Lecture, Douglas Bennett, American Council of Learned Societies Wednesday, July 17 8:45-10:10, Session B1, Dagobert Soergel, chair Thesauri and Metathesauri, I . Thesaurus-aided Searching in Search and Retrieval Protocols, Ron Davies, Bibliomatics . Building a Multilingual Thesaurus Based on UDC, Victoria Francu, Central University of Bucharest . Library Catalogs in the Internet: Switching for Future Subject Access, Ingetraut Dahlberg, INDEKS Verlag . SemWeb: Proposal for an Open, Multifunctional, Multilingual System for Integrated Access to Knowledge about Concepts and Terminology, Dagobert Soergel, University of Maryland 10:10-10:30, Break 10:30-11:35, Session B2, Corinne Jorgensen, chair Knowledge Organization and Images . Is a Picture Worth a Thousand Words? Classification and Graphic Symbol Systems, Elin K. Jacob and Debora Shaw, Indiana University . The University of Michigan School of Information Art Image Browser: Designing and testing a Model for Image Retrieval, C. Olivia Frost, University of Michigan . The Applicability of Selected Classification Systems to Image Attributes, Corinne Jo rgensen, University at Buffalo 11:35-1:00, Lunch 1:00-2:05, Session B3, Steve Pollitt, chair Knowledge Organization in the Business and Economic Environment . The World Bank's Information Management Architecture: A Blueprint for Building Institutional Information Services, Harold C. Steyer, Jr., Ana Flavia Fonseca, Diane D. Hopkins, Marc Nodell, Irene L. Travis, and William S. Wahl, World Bank . Business Productivity and Organization of Knowledge: A Look at the Emerging Requirements, Philip C. Murray, Knowledge Transfer International . Critical Notes on the Use of Knowledge in Knowledge Management, J.F. Schreinemakers and J.P.J.M. Essers 2:05-3:10, Session B4, M. A. Gopinath, chair User Focus in Knowledge Organization . Facilitating the Interaction of User and Public Knowledge Organization with User Profiles, User Views and User Education Plans, Michelle M. Foss and Gregory Shreve . Selection of Search Terms as a Meeting Place of Different Discourses, Mirja Iivonen, University of Oulu . Empowering Users for Improved Database Access and Analysis through the Application of Knowledge Structure Views, Progressive Refinement Techniques and a Design Approach Driven by Usability, A. Steven Pollitt, Mark Treglown, Martin P. Smith, Patrick A. J. Braekevelt, Geoffrey P. Ellis, Janet E. Finlay, and Steven J. Wade, University of Huddersfield 3:10-3:30, Break 3:30-4:55, Session B5, Karen Drabenstott, chair Knowledge Organization in the Online Environment, II . Description in the Electronic Environment, Rebecca Green, University of Maryland . Online Classification: Implications for Classifying and Document[-like Object] Retrieval, Diane Vizine-Goetz, OCLC . Parallel Universe: The Organization of Information Eelements and Access in a World Wide Web (WWW) Virtual Library, Gerry McKiernan, Iowa State University . Ontology-based Information Capturing from the Internet, Michiaki Iwazume, Hideaki Takeda, and Toyoaki Nishida, Nara Institute of Science and Technology 5:15-6:00pm, ISKO Business Meeting Thursday, July 18 8:45-10:10, Session C1, Jim Anderson, chair Interdisciplinary Approaches to Knowledge Organization . An Exploratory Study into Requirements for an Interdisciplinary Metathesaurus, Lynne C. Howarth . The Evolution of a Concept System: Reflections on Case Studies of Scientific Research, Italian Literature and Humanities Computing, Giliola Negrini and Giovanni Adamo, Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche . An Inductive Approach towards the Integration of General Information Systems for Agriculture: The Case of CERETHES, with Particular Examples, Massimo Ragucci, Ministero delle Risorse Agricole, Alimentari e Forestali . Controlled Vocabulary for HIV/AIDS: An Evolving Nosological Record of a Diseased Body of Knowledge, Jeffrey T. Huber, Texas Women's University, and Mary L. Gillaspy, AIDS Resource Center 10:10-10:30, Break 10:30-11:35, Session C2, Ingetraut Dahlberg, chair Interplay of Epistemology and Knowledge Organization . Dewey Thinks Therefore He Is: The Epistemic Stance of Dewey and DDC, Hope A. Olson, University of Alberta . Ontology for Knowledge Organization, Roberto Poli, University of Trento . L'Apparition du Computer: Epistemology and the Impact of Networked Computers on Society, Thomas D. Walker, University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee 11:35-1:00, Lunch 1:00-2:05, Session C3, Carol Bean, chair Natural Language Processing . PROMETHEUS: An Automatic Indexing System, A.R.D. Prasad, DRTC, Inidian Statistical Institute . Intelligent Support for Construction and Exploration of Advanced Technological Information Space, Toshiyuki Matsuo and Toyoaki Nishida, Nara Institute of Science and Technology . Evaluating Natural Language Processing Systems as a Tool for Building Terminological Databases, Widad Mustafa Elhadi, University Charles De Gaulle, and Christophe Jouis, University Charles De Gaulle, University La Sorbonne 2:05-3:10, Session C4, Nancy Williamson, chair Thesauri and Metathesauri, II . Terminology Organization and Change, Faina Citkina, BCN Group . Preparing Terminological Definitions for Indexing and Retrieval Thesauri: A Model, Michele Hudon, Universite de Monntreal . Deriving a Thesaurus from a Restructured UDC, Nancy Williamson, University of Toronto 3:10-3:30, Break 3:30-4:35, Session C5, Joan Mitchell, chair Dewey Decimal Classification . The Dewey Decimal Classification at 120: Edition 21 and Beyond, Joan S. Mitchell, OCLC Forest Press . Revision and Stability in Dewey 21: The Life Sciences Catch Up, Gregory R. New, Library of Congress . Dewey for Windows, Julianne Beall, Library of Congress 4:40-5:15, Session C6, Rebecca Green, chair . Concluding Remarks, Robert Fugmann 6:30-8:30, Reception, German Embassy Friday, July 19 Post-conference excursions: National Agricultural Library OR National Library of Medicine (morning). CHANGE IN ISKO CONFERENCE REGISTRATION PROCEDURE Due to a change in administrative and fiscal procedures at the Library of Congress, LC is unable to process registration payments for this summer's ISKO conference, as originally announced. The new procedures require that all checks for conference registration fees be deposited directly with the sponsoring organization, in this case the ISKO-General Secretariat in Germany. As a result of the new payment procedure you may now pay your conference fee by credit card. ISKO accepts Master Card, Visa, and Diners. If you choose to pay by credit card, please complete the appropriate section on the registration form. Credit card payments may be faxed to ISKO at +49 69 52 05 66. Because of this change, the deadline for early registration has been extended to June 15--there's still time to register early, but not a lot! CONFERENCE REGISTRATION INFORMATION REGISTRATION FEE US $250 (members) or US $300 (non-members) per participant. Mail OR fax your registration form by June 15, 1996. Registration fee after June 15, 1996: US $300 (members) or US $350 (non-members) The fee covers: printed conference proceedings and attendance at all sessions, excursions, coffee breaks, receptions and banquet. PAYMENT Make all checks payable in US Dollars to: ISKO-General Secretariat. Credit cards are accepted. Agency invoices are NOT accepted. REFUNDS After June 15, 1996, only 50% of the registration fee is refundable. No refunds after July 2, 1996. Please complete one registration form per participant and mail with payment to: ISKO - General Secretariat, Woogstr. 36a, D-60431 Frankfurt (Germany) Telephone:+49-69-52 36 90; FAX +49-69-52 05 66 LC CONTACT: THEODORE MORGAN Phone: + 202 707 6230 Telefax: + 202 707 6269 eMail: tmor@loc.gov HOTEL RESERVATIONS Conference hotels (in most convenient locations to the conference site) where participants may register at a special rate, are: Capitol Hill Suites, 200 C Street, SE Washington, DC 20003, USA Phone +202 543 6000; 1 800 424 9165 Telefax +202 547 2608 Single occupancy $114.00/ Double occupancy $129.00 per room. Reservations must be made by close of business, June 3, 1996. Holiday Inn 550 C Street, SW Washington, DC 20024, USA Phone +202 479 4000; 1 800 469 4329 Telefax +202 479 4353 Single, double, triple and quadruple occupancy $110.00 per room. Reservations must be made by close of business, June 16, 1996. Special rates are offered from Saturday, July 13, 1996 to Saturday, July 20, 1996. All rates are subject to a 13% sales tax and $1.50 night occupancy tax. In order to get the special rate, you must identify yourself as participant of the ISKO Conference, sponsored by the Library of Congress. Participants will be responsible for payment of room, tax and incidental charges. ***************************************************************************** ISKO CONFERENCE 1996 REGISTRATION Name ______________________________________________________________________________ Institution _____________________________________________ Position ______________________________________ Address_______________________________________________________________________ City _____________________________ State _________ Zip_______________________________ Country __________ FAX _____________________________________________ Email________________________________________________ AMOUNT SUBMITTED: ISKO Member US $250 _______ Non-Member: US $300 ______________ [ ] Check Or charge to my credit card: [ ] Master Card [ ] VISA [ ] Diners Number__________________________________________________ Expiration date__________________________________________ Signature________________________________________________ DEMONSTRATION SESSIONS, JULY 15, 1996 DIGITAL LIBRARY VISITOR'S CENTER[] (indicate 1st and 2nd choice) [] 9:00 AM - 10:45 AM [] 10:45 AM - 12:30 PM [] 12:30 PM - 2:15 PM [] 2:15 PM - 4:00 PM LIBRARY TOUR, JULY 15, 1996 [] 10:45 AM [] 2:15 PM LIST EVENING FUNCTIONS YOU WILL ATTEND [] Reception, July 15, 1996 [] Banquet, July 16, 1996 [] Embassy Reception, July 18, 1996 POST-CONFERENCE EXCURSIONS (choice of one) [] National Library of Medicine [] National Agricultural Library SPECIAL NEEDS: [] Check here if you have a disability which may require auxiliary aids and services. Services requested:________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:00:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: invoicing questions >For example, I'm now working with a publisher for whom I download via FTP >the book, print it myself, and go from there. I am to list separately the >printing expenses, for which I might or might not be reimbursed. (That's >another whole discussion that I'll get to in a sec.) How do you set up your >invoices? Do you put your social security numbers on them? I ask for checks >to be payable to my business name. I used to have a separate line saying >"Please make checks payable to Directions Unlimited. Is that what you all >do? Do you put xx number of pages (or entries) at $xx, total $xx, or do you >just put $xx for services rendered, or what? I list anything on the invoice that I require reimbursement for (e.g., shipping). Yes, I do put my social security number on the invoice, because publishers' accounting depts. need it for tax purposes. I don't use an invoicing program at all. Here's what I do (BTW, this is all on a Mac): 1. I have a template for my business letterhead, which is just a Word 5.1 document that includes my logo + name, address, etc., at the top (looks like the business card I gave you in Denver). 2. From that template, I created a template laid out like an invoice: INVOICE Date: 29 April 1996 Project: author/Book Title Services: Indexing Provider of services: Carol Roberts (soc. sec. number) $20 per indexable page x 1,000 pages = $20,000 Note: Payment is due within thirty days. Thank you! 3. That fee is a joke/fantasy, of course. BTW, I keep a collection of different business templates on my Apple menu. 4. To keep track of the invoice, I use a little appointment/calendar program called Notify 2.1. I just program it to let me know when the thirty days are up, how much is owed, and by whom (I use it for lots of other stuff, of course). Notify is freeware, but I don't know if it's still around. If you don't already have something like this and would like it, I could send it to you prob'ly as an e-mail attachment. If not, then on a disk. (Maybe I could FTP it, but I've never done it.) >OK, now for the paid-for-printing-problem. This company wants to save Fedex >charges by using the ftp method. It sounds like you haven't yet told them that their saving is your cost, right? I think you'll have to be up-front with them about it and say that it costs you so much per page to print it and that you expect them to pay for that. I must admit I'm a little puzzled by the arrangement you have with this publisher. I assume you're working with a page proof stage of the book, right? And isn't it laid out in some page layout program--either PageMaker or Quark Express? How are you able to print it out at all? Do you have one or both of those programs? I'm curious, because that would be a real stumbling block for me if a publisher wanted me to work that way. Without spending hundreds of dollars for, say, PageMaker, I wouldn't be able to print out a copy of the book to work on. I think. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 2 Jun 1996 to 3 Jun 1996 >This may be your best bet. Use your frustration to spark a marketing blitz >and get rid of the client at the first opportunity. I'd like to add something to Janet's comment. There are always going to be clients who treat you shabbily. If your work is good, and you're willing to do the marketing work, then somewhere down the road, you'll be able to pick and choose your clients. After all, isn't that kind of control one of the reasons we became freelancers? But also be aware that many situations can be worked out, and you might not have to drop a client who "misbehaves." Recently, a client of mine notified me that the schedule for a book I was expecting had slipped by two weeks! And he had apparently known about the schedule change for a week without letting me know. Because I was already booked for the new date, it looked like not only was I going to lose a couple of weeks' pay but I wouldn't even be able to do the book later. Boy, was I steamed! I politely but firmly let him know that I was unhappy and why, and lo and behold a dialogue began. It turned out that there were some misunderstandings on both sides, he was willing both to compensate me for some of the lost pay and take a *much* later delivery of the index (i.e., after several other jobs I had lined up), and we came to a new and very explicit understanding about dates for future jobs. I'm really glad I didn't just put this guy on my shit list, because I like the books he sends me, and I have a great relationship (long cultivated) with another editor at the same press. The moral of this story is that clients can't read our minds and know how we feel about things and what we want. We have to tell them. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Mysterious non-delivery messages >Is -everyone- getting these celestat non-delivery messages? I've been >assuming that it was just me, and that my messages were not being posted. I >wonder if there is some way that one can get one's own postings in the mail, >as proof that they -were- posted. Once I send mine off, I don't know where >they've gone unless someone replies to (or flames) something I've said. > >Allison Brooks The mystery is now cleared up, for me, anyway. I'm glad somebody finally posted about it. I was getting the nondelivery notice, because my Index-L digest comes with the BITNET address in the "sender" line. So when I hit "reply," it automagically goes to that address, which doesn't seem to work. I have Eudora, which gives me the option of a "reply to" function, so I can send the reply to a preset address (in this case, INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU), which does work. When I remember to do it. And no, it's not just AOL'ers who are getting the nondelivery message. As for getting a copy of your post back, all you have to do is reset your mail option. Send to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU the following command: SET INDEX-L REPRO I'm assuming that this list is still on autopilot, since I saw an unsub message earlier. I don't mean to violate Charlotte Skuster's turf. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:15:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Useless efforts? > >Well, if we're doing the Jung/Tarot thing, the author would probably be >the Magician and the indexer the Hierophant, not the Priest[ess]. And the >reader would be the Fool... > LOL Sonsie! I'll have to think about this. Actually, I often do feel like the High Priestess, seeing through the veil into the mystery (created by the author--the Empress??). I think the publisher is the Hierophant (setting up the rules). Of course, we may have different Tarot interpretations...! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:15:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: invoices Rachel asks, > Any >suggestions for generating one's own invoice? How do you all format it? How >do you break down your charges? I format my invoices in Microsoft Publisher, so I can make my logo in the corner and a big black box that says INVOICE. I have a box for my social security number (they require this to be on invoices). The charges section has the following lines: indexable pages fee per indexable page indexing total shipping rebilling fee (not that I'm charging this--just so they can see that it's a possibility! I don't know if it's had any effect 8-/) Total Then at the bottom I say "due and payable by" a month from the invoice date. Oh, and after several publishers asking for it, I finally started numbering my invoices. I keep the Publisher file on my hard drive and just go in and fill in the new information for each index and print it out. I wish Publisher had macros, though, so I could fill in client addresses easily. I also have a record (on paper not the computer!) with information on what I charged to who and when it's due. Works fine. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:16:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Need pricing help! Angela writes: > I was shown a book that I was to index that was >estimated at 200 pages long, and I told them I would charge $3 a page. I >will get the final pages this week, so I haven't started yet. But, it turns >out they have re-formatted the book so the pages are smaller and have more white >space, so the same information is now 350 pages long. Well, I don't feel I can >charge $3 a page anymore, because my contact got permission to hire me based >on my estimate and figuring that the total cost would be about $600. > >I don't feel I can justify changing my estimate when the amount of >information is the same, so I'm thinking of (just for this one job) to charge $2 a page >to keep their costs more in line with my original estimate. However, I don't >really want to set a precedent that my rate is $2 a page, because I don't >think that's enough in general. Well...I don't do much specific pricing depending on the density of the book (I probably should, but I guess I'm too lazy, and the clients that publish the hardest material can afford to pay me the least, so I figure it all balances out in the end). I do adjust for more than one index, etc. But I do have a base rate below which I do not go. Usually I quote that rate or a little higher if I think I can get it from a new client, and that's my rate no matter what happens to the pages. In your situation, I think your whole-job bid idea is the way to go. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 06:16:41 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Listserv problems The problems people are having with bounced messages are certainly not new to me: I have been having problems for over a year. First off, messages created with the 'Reply' option started to bounce, and I had to start typing the alternative list address: INDEX-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Then about six months ago that started to play up too - but only on one of my two internet accounts; the other continued to work fine. The provider I was having problems with claimed 'this wasn't a valid Internet address', but failed to explain why it had worked fine for at least six months. The solution I found was to use another alternative address: INDEX-L%BINGVMB.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu I have an alias set up for this in Eudora and I type the alias in place of the original reply-to address when writing replies. So far, so good - touch wood. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 06:16:47 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Invoicing systems A while ago I was called on to teach Access, and I thought a good way to learn it would be to set up my own financial records in it. It took about three months to get everything working smoothly, but now it handles the invoicing for my teaching and indexing as well as the joint database indexing that we do as a company, as well as tracking teaching dates, etc. It has the advantage that I can get total or average earning figures for any given period, client or type of work, I can track down unpaid invoices quickly, and I can 'plug in' client details from an existing list of information. I don't know if I'd have bothered if I wasn't going to be teaching it, but I couldn't do without it now. Another possibility - Microsoft Money, which reportedly is selling for only $AUS20 at the moment. I haven't tried it but the reviews are positive. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 06:21:30 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Charging for pickup of proofs At 08:44 3/06/96 -0400, Dick Evans wrote: >For instance, how do you handle a local client who wants to stop FedExing and >have you pick up the proofs? Each pickup is 30 miles round trip and takes an >hour. Each project requires 3-5 pickups. I'm thinking of offering one >pickup for free and charging for the rest. First I would look for a cheaper method of delivery - here, for instance, we have an Australia Post Overnight Bag service which is fairly inexpensive. If the client insisted on the proofs being picked up by hand then I would charge the trip at indexing rates - after all, the time you spend driving is time during which you could be indexing for someone else. If that discourages the client - well, perhaps that's not a bad thing in the long run. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:43:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: FTP/Pickup & Delivery Charges Hello everyone, Earlier in my freelance years, I had experiences just like what has been described here over the past few days: clients expected me to print hardcopies of their projects without charging for it and/or make personal pickups and deliveries to their offices. Much as was the case with my payment terms, I learned to nip this in the bud by including clauses in my standard contract to cover these eventualities. I have a clause which expressly states that the client bears sole financial responsibility for all deliveries of work to be done and pickups of completed projects. The clause also specifies that personal visits to their premises for pickup and delivery purposes will be chargeable at a (rather resoundingly high) hourly rate--*including travel time*. Another clause states that all work must be submitted to me in hardcopy format, with softcopy optional as appropriate to the needs of the project--and that if softcopy only is submitted, there will be a 50-cent charge per laser-printed page. When clients are faced with the prospect of increasing the budget for a 400-page book by $200, they are *quite* happy to spend the much lower amount needed for a new toner cartridge or for photocopying. In just a very few cases, I've had to tactfully and politely explain that I'm operating a business and must cover my overhead. If someone balks at this--much as is the case with my payment terms--it's a red flag for a potential "problem client". Sarah |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:18:37 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Butler Subject: Master indexes Hi all, I am in the process of indexing a suite of technical manuals and would like some advice. The manuals are supplied as a complete set and each manual has its own detailed index. The manuals are a mixture of procedural instructions and technical descriptions (reference material). To assist in navigation through the manual set, I am proposing to include a master index which will direct the reader to the appropriate manual. From this point the individual manual index can be used to find the relevant information. The individual manual indexes have been created by the authors of the manuals and so subtle differences in terminology used leads to difficulties in automatically generating a master index. I therefore propose to use the existing indexes and, in essence, index these to extract topics to be included in the master index. My question is: to what detail should this master index be created? Should I simply index the major topics, procedures, activities, etc. or should I index to the same detail as in the individual indexes, or somewhere in between? The use of manual, chapter and page references in the master index is not an option for a variety of reasons (frequency of manual updates, limitations of indexing software amongst them). Also, a simple repeat of the manual indexes would be superfluous and a waste of space. Any assistance gratefully received. -- =========================================================================== Simon Butler MISTC | Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (butlers@ecid.cig.mot.com) | (Who will guard the Guardians themselves?) =========================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:52:10 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Sig lines This may be really dumb, but how do you make one for your e-mail messages? Please send mail to me if you don't want to clutter up the list. Thanks. Joanne Clendenen J_Clendenen@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:59:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Re: Windows Help Indexing At 01:50 PM 6/3/96 +0100, you wrote: >What is the best route to finding a good company to do the work? My hunch is that you're unlikely to find a professional indexer who specializes in help files. There's a chance you can find one who has experience in the area. More likely you'll have to "settle" for a help author who has some experience with indexing. Some general suggestions: Call the Society of Indexers. See if they can make suggestions or referrals. Hang out in comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.winhelp on Usenet. You might find leads. If you ask there, you might get good suggestions. Pick up some magazines for help file developers. I know of at least one; there may be more. I can get names if you want. I don't know what's available in the UK, though. Go to Windows developer group meetings. Get to know people who manage Windows development projects. Ask them for advice. Some of these meeetings set aside time for announcements when you can broadcast your question. Good luck. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:00:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Master indexes >> On Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:18:37 +0100, >> Simon Butler (butlers@ecid.cig.mot.com) said: S> I am in the process of indexing a suite of technical manuals and would S> like some advice. [...] To assist in navigation through the manual set, S> I am proposing to include a master index which will direct the reader to S> the appropriate manual. [...] My question is: to what detail should this S> master index be created? If I were using something like this, I'd like to see just major topics and procedures mentioned. A series of high-level "How-to" entries would do the trick. If you have access to the section headings, how about a keyword-at-line index showing the right manual for each heading? I have something like that which I use to index the 50-some 3-ring binders I have near my desk. The input file holds a set of binder numbers with the major sections contained in each one: $Revision: 1.5 $ 01 NIC Network Management Tools 01 Introduction to TCL (Tool Control Language) 02 IEEE Software Engineering Symposium, 1991 03 Introduction to the C17 MIS 03 Vsh (Msh), the Visual Shell I run it through a short PERL script to sort by keyword and remove stopwords, and the output looks like this: Binder Index 1.5 Page 1 Keyword Binder Entry description ------------------------------------------------------------------------- c17 3 Introduction to the C17 MIS control 1 Introduction to TCL (Tool Control Language) engineering 2 IEEE Software Engineering Symposium, 1991 ieee 2 IEEE Software Engineering Symposium, 1991 introduction 1 Introduction to TCL (Tool Control Language) introduction 3 Introduction to the C17 MIS language 1 Introduction to TCL (Tool Control Language) management 1 NIC Network Management Tools mis 3 Introduction to the C17 MIS msh 3 Vsh (Msh), the Visual Shell network 1 NIC Network Management Tools nic 1 NIC Network Management Tools shell 3 Vsh (Msh), the Visual Shell software 2 IEEE Software Engineering Symposium, 1991 symposium 2 IEEE Software Engineering Symposium, 1991 tcl 1 Introduction to TCL (Tool Control Language) tool 1 Introduction to TCL (Tool Control Language) tools 1 NIC Network Management Tools visual 3 Vsh (Msh), the Visual Shell vsh 3 Vsh (Msh), the Visual Shell S> The use of manual, chapter and page references in the master index is not S> an option for a variety of reasons ... If you can't refer to a manual, what will the entries in your index point to? -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 Aquadextrous, adj.: Possessing the ability to turn the bathtub faucet on and off with your toes. --Rich Hall, "Sniglets" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:29:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michele Deyoe Subject: Wisconsin ASI July Meeting The Wisconsin Chapter of the American Society of Indexers will meet: Saturday, July 27, 1996 11:00 am--2:00 pm Medical College of Wisconsin, History of Medicine Room Medical Education Building, Todd Wehr Library, 3rd Floor 8701 Watertown Plank Road, Milwaukee, WI Judith Jablonski, Jablonski Associates, will present a talk on: Indexing for PsycINFO Database Indexing Bring a bag lunch, beverages provided RSVP to Carol Roberts, Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com or 414-964-5271 For directions to MCW, contact mdeyoe@post.its.mcw.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:15:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sig lines actually, I would like to know also. Please share it with everyone. Thanks Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:37:35 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: benson351@AUSTIN.EMAIL.NET Subject: FTP/Pickup & Delivery Charges In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:43:19 CDT, <199606050653.BAA14450@bounced.email.net> I do some of that but right now I work out of my house and am just getting started. I have a contract where I charge my regular rate with most of my clients when I deliver or run errands. My fees are still lower than my competition but when I get really busy I will raise my rates to take advantage of my popularity. Sarah Lee ha. I like that name but you must have been given a hard time when you were growing up? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:57:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: FTP/Pickup & Delivery benson351@AUSTIN.EMAIL.NET writes: >Sarah Lee ha. I like that name but you must >have been given a hard time when you were growing up? Yup...imagine kids chasing you all over the playground yelling, "everybody doesn't like you! we're gonna catch you and stick you back in the freezer!" Made me abandon my first name for years! These days, however, I *like* being a piece of cake! Sarah |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| | Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist| | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Frances Buran Subject: Windows Help Indexing >You wrote: > >My hunch is that you're unlikely to find a professional indexer who >specializes in help files. > > As a professional indexer, I index both print documentation and create search topic lists for Help systems, especially Windows 95 Help systems. I actually enjoy doing the latter as much as I enjoy doing the former. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:00:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Invoices and charges Hi all, Non-Mac users might want to skip to *** Regarding invoices, Mac users will be pleased to know I found a really nice shareware program called QuikBill that is lovely. It doesn't have any bells or whistles, does compounded interest, aging reports, client file management, etc. You can use a text based letterhead (easily done), or import a PICT file of your logo. It has a place to put in a message such as your SSN or Please make checks payable to . . . It has related programs for time clocks, mail lists, and much more, all on a modular basis so you only buy what you need. The invoice program in only $49, and the time clock is a mere $19. The company also sells very much more complicated programs to do almost anything you can imagine for a small business, from retail to service. You can download with Netscape or ftp. Their URL is http://www.copperhead.com/business/copperhead/ Netscape comes back with an error message saying they don't have DNS entry, but if you wait a sec, it comes up anyway. *** Now, regarding invoices, contracts, etc., I got it in my head that it might be useful to put together a booklet with people's invoices, contracts, cover letters, resumes, etc., taking out personal info such as charges, SSNs, company names, etc. I'd be willing to put it together, if anyone out there is willing to contribute. It might be useful, especially for novices. What does everyone think? Is this something that should be done through ASI? It could even go out on disk as ASCII files or Acrobat reader, or whatever. Hope I'm not biting off more than I can chew. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:27:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: mysterious messages...possible solutions Hi all... I just talked to our listserv guru (after several days of phone-tag) regarding the bounced messages from celestat. Carol Roberts and Jonathan Jeremy are both on the right track. This is how I understand it: All systems have their own way of routing messages. Recently, any messages to index-l that were routed through celestat were bounced back because that node could not make sense of the address. It is likely that it was the bitnet address that was the problem. It is necessary to change the address to "force" the message through. This can be done either by using the internet address--index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu. Or, if that is not the problem and neither address works, you will need to talk to your own system administrator about ways to address the message to avoid the problem. Jonathan's solution did just that..by routing his messages through the Buffalo (ubvm) listserv. Let me know if this explanation does not make sense. I will be at a meeting next week but will try to check my mail from time-to-time. Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:51:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators -Reply In-Reply-To: <199606041920.MAA03533@spork.callamer.com> Alison, I'm glad my idea started a fire with someone else. It's an issue that has long been of interest to me, since indicators are not standardized and many people just don't bother to look at headnotes. Any suggestions? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:49:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Infojo6363@AOL.COM Subject: charges My father belonged to a trade association which published recommended pricing guidelines for it's members. I believe the booklet is updated on an annual or bi-annual basis. Does ASI publish such a document? JP ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:49:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: charges >My father belonged to a trade association which published recommended pricing >guidelines for it's members. I believe the booklet is updated on an annual or >bi-annual basis. Does ASI publish such a document? ASI is not a trade association, but a tax-exempt educational foundation. This means we have to be VERY careful not to say things like "recommended" or "usual" rates in any ASI publication or at any ASI meeting. The IRS has ears everywhere...... Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:53:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Hill Subject: ASIS '97 Mid Year Call for Participation CALL FOR PARTICIPATION INFORMATION PRIVACY, INTEGRITY, AND DATA SECURITY ASIS 1997 Mid-Year Conference Radisson Resort Scottsdale, Arizona; June 2-4, 1997 Audience: Professionals and scholars interested in social and technical issues for all aspects of information privacy, integrity and security. The infrastructure for data security, electronic communication and information privacy is built on an uncertain foundation. The commercial demands for secure electronic transfers involving digital cash, personnel records, product information, and virtually every type of information found in commerce has to date yielded techniques which fall short of their goals. In the late-1990's, there are almost no standards for electronic data exchange, scholarly publishing, or electronic communication which offer data security and integrity. Organizations of every type rely on electronic data, yet these data are not secure from compromise. Most importantly, the potential impact of false or altered data on individuals can be profound. The legal basis for dealing with data privacy, accountability for error, and remuneration for damages as a result of electronic transactions has not been established. Acceptable norms for conduct and ethical organizational and individual behavior are still emerging. Policy makers and business people, technologists and social scientists, researchers and practitioners have not benefited greatly by sharing their expertise due to pressures to develop working systems on short order. This has resulted in a long string of horror stories, and also a potentially unsound basis on which to develop the foundation of electronic communication and commerce for the 21st century. The fast pace of development for computing and networking technology has surpassed the social norms and ethics needed to deal with technologies and their uses. Individuals may feel uncertain or disempowered and be unwilling to participate; organizations are pressured to implement technological solutions, but without a clear notion of the problem; social institutions are stressed by demands to incorporate technologies into their services, yet without an adequate infrastructure to support their expansion. In all these cases, the potential benefits of technology for data transfer are featured, but the risks and uncertainties are downplayed. Who owns data? How can we verify accuracy of data, and verify that data are obtained from an authenticated source? What can you do when data about you is incorrect or has been misappropriated? What sorts of liability need to be associated with data misuse and/or misappropriation, and how should the value of data be assessed for liability purposes? What sorts of values for privacy, data sharing, and ethical responsibility will we need? The 1997 ASIS Mid-Year meeting will convene experts on different approaches to these issues: * information policy and legal issues * social and organization change * privacy and ethical norms * civil rights, empowerment, and equality * users, user studies, and methodologies * data transfer, encryption, and verification * electronic cataloging and retrieval * products and services * electronic publishing (provenance, copyright enforcement, etc.) THE CONFERENCE PROGRAM AND SUBMISSION GUIDELINES: a. Contributed papers are invited from scholars and practitioners in every field of interest. Contributed papers will be published in the conference proceedings; abstracts will be made available in electronic proceedings. Contributed papers should be approximately 2500-5000 words in length. b. Panels and Technical Sessions. Individuals, organizations and ASIS Special Interest Groups are invited to submit proposals on topics related to the conference theme. Panel and technical sessions typically bring together expert panelists to present findings or debate. We invited innovative approaches to panel or technical sessions or activities. SIGs are also encouraged to consider working with other SIGs and with other professional, scholarly, or technical societies to develop sessions. SIG session abstracts will be included in the conference proceedings. c. Poster Sessions. The conference will include poster sessions for late-breaking or preliminary results from research, policy, or product developments. d. Exhibition. Vendors of products related to the conference theme are invited to present a display in the Exhibition Hall. TOPICS: Contributed paper and Panel or Technical session topics may include, but are not limited to: * historical interpretation * future trends * software or hardware evaluation * user studies or methodologies * norms and ethics * equity and empowerment * policy analysis * international issues * corporate or government policy * data privacy * data ownership * case studies * standards for encryption and verification * standards for description of electronic data * effects of the European Union, Society break-up, democratization, and other political changes on policy DEADLINES Contributed Papers: Full papers (no abstracts) to be submitted by November 1, 1996. Guidelines for submission will be available on the Internet on the Mid Year '97 homepage: http://www.asis.org/midyear97/. Four printed copies of papers are required for refereeing. Authors are urged to consult the submission guidelines for information about preparation for the electronic proceedings and style guides for the print proceedings. Panel, Technical and SIG Sessions: An abstract with sponsoring SIG(s) if any and participant list is to be submitted by November 1, 1996. The format for proposals is described in the submission guidelines at the conference WWW page. Poster Sessions: Poster sessions proposals are due January 20, 1997. Electronic submission to the conference co-chairs is the only format for poster session proposals. Guidelines are available at the conference WWW page. Questions may be addressed to the meeting co-chairs/proceedings editors and Panel Session Coordinator: Gregory B. Newby, Co-Chair GSLIS/UIUC 501 E. Daniel St. Champaign, IL, 61820 Tel: (217) 244-7365 Fax: (217) 244-3302 Email: gbnewby@uiuc.edu Mark H. Needleman, Co chair UCOP 300 Lakeside Drive 8th Floor Oakland CA, 94612-3550 Tel: (510) 987-0530 Fax: (510) 839-3573 Email: mhn@stubbs.ucop.edu Karla Petersen, Panel Sessions Cudahy Library, Loyola University of Chicago 6525 N. Sheriday Road Chicago, IL 60625 Tel: (312) 508-2657 FAX: (312) 508-8691 Email: kpeter1@luc.edu Richard Hill Executive Director, American Society for Information Science 8720 Georgia Avenue, Suite 501 Silver Spring, MD 20910 FAX: (301) 495-0810 Voice: (301) 495-0900 rhill@cni.org http://www.asis.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucas A Baker Subject: Help In-Reply-To: <9606062131.AA14743@bushido.iconovex.com> Does anyone know how to get off this subscription list? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:44:32 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Carpenter Subject: Re: Help > Does anyone know how to get off this subscription list? When you subscribed, you received the following message: Your subscription to the INDEX-L list (Indexer's Discussion Group) has been accepted. Please save this message for future reference, especially if you are not familiar with LISTSERV. This might look like a waste of disk space now, but in 6 months you will be glad you saved this information when you realize that you cannot remember what are the lists you are subscribed to, or what is the command to leave the list to avoid filling up your mailbox while you are on vacations. In fact, you should create a new mail folder for subscription confirmation messages like this one, and for the "welcome messages" from the list owners that you are will occasionally receive after subscribing to a new list. To send a message to all the people currently subscribed to the list, just send mail to INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU. This is called "sending mail to the list", because you send mail to a single address and LISTSERV makes copies for all the people who have subscribed. This address (INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU) is also called the "list address". You must never try to send any command to that address, as it would be distributed to all the people who have subscribed. All commands must be sent to the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). It is very important to understand the difference between the two, but fortunately it is not complicated. The LISTSERV address is like a FAX number, and the list address is like a normal phone line. If you make your FAX call someone's regular phone number by mistake, it will be an unpleasant experience for him but you will probably be excused the first time. If you do it regularly, however, he will probably get upset and send you a nasty complaint. It is the same with mailing lists, with the difference that you are calling hundreds or thousands of people at the same time, so a lot more people get annoyed if you use the wrong number. You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF INDEX-L" command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). You can also tell LISTSERV how you want it to confirm the receipt of messages you send to the list. If you do not trust the system, send a "SET INDEX-L REPRO" command and LISTSERV will send you a copy of your own messages, so that you can see that the message was distributed and did not get damaged on the way. After a while you may find that this is getting annoying, especially if your mail program does not tell you that the message is from you when it informs you that new mail has arrived from INDEX-L. If you send a "SET INDEX-L ACK NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will mail you a short acknowledgement instead, which will look different in your mailbox directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this is an acknowledgement you can read later. Finally, you can turn off acknowledgements completely with "SET INDEX-L NOACK NOREPRO". Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX INDEX-L" command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). You can then order these files with a "GET INDEX-L LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more information on the latter. Please note that it is presently possible for anybody to determine that you are signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not want your name to be visible, just issue a "SET INDEX-L CONCEAL" command. More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: Re: Signature lines At 02:52 PM 6/5/96 UT, Joanne Clendenen wrote: >This may be really dumb, but how do you make one for your e-mail messages? and at 04:15 PM 6/5/96 -0400, LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: >actually, I would like to know also. Please share it with everyone. The answer to this question is dependent on the email client program you are using. Not all email programs have the ability to automatically append signature files--for such identifiability-challenged programs (such as WinCIM, the Windows client for CompuServe), you must do something like cut-and-paste a standard signature file (which you have created with some word processing program, but saved in a plain text format) at the end of your message. For most Windows or Macintosh email client programs, just search through the various menus for a task which includes the word Signature. I happen to be using Eudora Pro 2.2(16) for Windows right now, and the task for creating a signature file is called "Signature"; it is found in the "Tools" menu. There is a separate switch included in the window for creating a message which allows one to turn off your signature for that particular message (which I frequently do when I feel that the information included in my signature is irrelevant to the message I am sending). ===================================================================== Rollie Littlewood (608) 26 2-7385 University of Wisconsin-Madison Email: rklittle@facstaff.wisc.edu Institute for Molecular Virology & Laboratory of Molecular Biology 1525 Linden Drive Madison WI 53706-1596 FAX : (608) 26 2-7414 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:27:00 BST-1 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: White House I seem to have had the guff from autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov a number of times purporting to be from Vice-President Gore thanking me for writing to him. I have never written to him. Is it via the auspices of this list server that I am getting them? _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:37:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Marie Ramacciotti Subject: New Indexing Tools For those of you on the web, check out the site: http://www.iconovex.com A blurb: Bloomington, Minn.-based Iconovex provides information on its automatic indexing software products. Get an evaluation copy of AnchorPage, software for automatic hyperlinking and idexing of Web documents. --- They also have some other neat indexing tools for both Windows and Mac. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:16:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexing Services Subject: ASI Heartland Chapter Mtg ASI Heartland Chapter Summer Picnic/Meeting Saturday, June 29, 1996 12:00 noon EST at Margie Towerys 40 Paradise Court Lafayette, IN Please let Margie know you are coming at 317/449-1718. She will provide hotdogs, hamburgers, drinks and table service. Please bring a dish to share and lawnchairs. Family and friends are welcome. We will be discussing plans for our fall workshop, news from the Denver conference, names for our newsletter, etc. All ASI Heartland Chapter members will receive a flyer by mail which includes a map. Contact Joan Griffitts at 317/297-7312 or indexsvc@ indyvax.iupui.edu if you need a map.