========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:01:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: doug montalbano Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On 28 Mar 95, Hannah King (kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu) asks a dynamite series of questions: > As an indexing tool, how would you compare gopher and the web? > Which does a better job in helping people locate information on the > Internet? Would you say gopher is more like a table of contents and > the web is more like an index? .... These are questions I've considered since I've been trying to put my workgroup's organizational and reference tools on a local WWW page. I admit I haven't thought "indexing", but the same reasoning as Hannah's did finally strike me. In a traditional indexing sense (vocabulary keywords), I would say that gopher is better than WWW, although neither has anywhere near the level of control as a traditional index. The Internet is far too amorphous, and under the control of no one group (although there are conventions of a sort), and controlled by people who are of a different frame of mind than most indexers. (By which generalization, I mean they're "Let's connect this to this, and this to this -- let's see if it works... yeah! yeah! cool!" rather than analytical.) How could you index an irrational shifting organism? gopher has more clearly-defined "rules" (in that files need to be set up a certain way) in order to work at all. I do think that WWW has the potential (if used correctly) to be a wonderful indexing tool. Indexers using www, however, may need to learn new tools (such as the web-crawler) to even begin to get a grip on this information.... I would think of www more as a hypertext-linked citation list than a true index, at least for now. But what do I know. doug_montalbano@cc.chiron.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:01:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jeff Finlay, NYU" Organization: St. Peter's College, US Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > We've compared various indexing software now let's compare indexing > on the Internet. As an indexing tool, how would you compare gopher and > the web? Which does a better job in helping people locate information > on the Internet? Would you say gopher is more like a table of contents > and the web is more like an index? What about vocabulary control? I would say web leaves gopher in the dust. Crossreferencing and interlinking are an inbuilt part of web; just trying doing same with gopher. I put together some files on gopher with a view to webbing them. I found the degree of separateness on gopher hard to handle. Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:03:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Overbaugh Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Hannah King wrote: >Which does a better job in helping people locate information >on the Internet? I'd say Gopher, by far. The Web is just a structure for information flow--there's no sort of organization, save for the manner in which webmasters organize their home pages. There are limited search functions, called web b crawlers, but there's an awful lot of information out there and little way to t organize it besides alphabetical listings. Don't think of the Web as any sort o of organizaed information, and you'll be ok. It's more like a public library r with no catalog, where the books are just thrown on the shelves in no pattern. t A BIG library! Gopher, on the other hand, is a bit like a card catalog--the actual a information is usually not present on the Gopher server, but the files contain c links to where you can get the information. It's organized like a card e catalog: look up by subject. You can't say to the catalog "Give me everything v about MUD's"; you have to look under Entertainment\Games\MUD's. >Does either of these finding tools provide some kind of cross-referencing? The Web has cross-referencing in the form of hyperlinks to other WWW pages. W However, remember these links are created at the discretion of the webmaster e of that home page, and the links in no way reflect an exhaustive list of t related home pages. >Does either group like things together so that one term or phrase >gets one to appropriate information or do they both demand that you >consider too many entry points to assure comprehensive retrieval? The latter. The good news is that the Web is young, but the fastest growing technology in t the world. What I write today is probably inaccurate tomorrow! So rest o assured: in a year or so, you'll surely be able to access 'Web databases' that d are filled with every home page available on the Web, indexed and searchable. A revolution is in process! John O. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * John Overbaugh johno@spry.com Technical Documentation (206) 442-8486 SPRY, Inc Internetworking the desktop Makers of Internet In A Box and AIR Series 3.0: PC Magazine's Communications Product of the Year, 1994! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:09:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kelly Burhenne Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Text item: Text_1 Hannah asks: > We've compared various indexing software now let's compare indexing > on the Internet. As an indexing tool, how would you compare gopher > and the web? Which does a better job in helping people locate > information on the Internet? Would you say gopher is more like a > table of contents and the web is more like an index? This is my understanding: Gopher menus have links to menus and files located at other Gopher sites. With WWW, instead of linking menus, you can link _documents_ together. With WWW, you can read documents, get documents, access Usenet, access telnet, and access files via FTP. The Web uses URLs, which list the exact location of *any* Internet resource. Apparently, gopher doesn't have all the capabilities of the WWW. Again, this is only my understanding. Unfortunately, I only have level one connectivity (e-mail) :( Poor me! . . Kelly Burhenne burhennk@liebert.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:12:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >We've compared various indexing software now let's compare indexing >on the Internet. As an indexing tool, how would you compare gopher and >the web? Which does a better job in helping people locate information >on the Internet? Would you say gopher is more like a table of contents >and the web is more like an index? What about vocabulary control? >Number of "undifferentiated locators" meaning the list of files retrieved? >Does either of these finding tools provide some kind of cross-referencing? >Does either group like things together so that one term or phrase >gets one to appropriate information or do they both demand that you >consider too many entry points to assure comprehensive retrieval? > >Just curious if anyone is examining these tools as indexing tools besides >me. > >Hannah King >SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse >kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu > > Interesting question, Hannah. Now, this answer isn't totally thought through as I'm composing it online with the clock ticking. :-) But here are some initial thoughts. The Web itself is actually beginning to encompass gopher within itself, IMHO, as many sites contain links to gophers (and ftp and telnet sites). With gopher, we've had archie, veronica and jughead search tools, but now, even these are available via the Web for conducting gopher searches. Also, the Web now has a number of search engines and subject trees for information retrieval. Indeed, a number of them are being proposed for inclusion in the proposed ASI Web site. (After all, we're in the field of IR and it seems appropriate for us to include these tools for visitors to our site, IMHO.) There are some problems with retrieval tools that are based on searching hypertext links for a given search string. On the Web, you'll find many links that say "click here" with "here" as the anchor for the link. I doubt many people would use "here" as a search string, so the information buried under that link is inacessible to certain types of searches. However, there are other search engines that search HTML document titles and/or document text. (I'll come back with more info because I need to research the specifics offline.) There are pretty good search tools on the Web. Perhaps another Websurfer has much more to add to your question. I think the number of "undifferentiated locators" is partly a function of the search string and tool used. Some tools allow you to use Boolean operators to help weed out the chaff. All in all, I think the Web is becoming the more powerful tool for retrieving information from the Internet as it, in itself, is searchable along with gopher and other sites. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:13:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RachelR@aol.com Subject: Mac dedicated indexing available now ( long) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- First, a disclaimer: I am a beginning indexer so please forgive any lack-of-experience errors, but I am an experienced Mac user and so I want to put in a few comments. Re macros on Macs, someone mentioned Quickeys and Applescript, there is also Tempo II. I use Quickeys and it does amazing things. I used to use Tempo at a job, and it, too, did amazing, complicated procedures. I think Tempo might have a slight advantage in being able to perform more if/then functions, but I never needed to write those types of macros, so I'm not sure. But the big news is that there is an incredibly useful, dedicated Mac program available, that does not cost millions. It is a Hypercard-driven dedicated-indexing stack written by Andre De Tienne, who understands thoroughly both indexing and Hypercard. It's called HyperIndex 4.0. HyperIndex uses a regular index card metaphor so is very intuitive. There are keyboard commands so you don't have to mouse much (and you can use Quickkeys to write any other keyboard commands you need). You can also import an entire electronic text, index it all on line, with the advantage that you don't even have to type your entries, just mark 'em as either main, sub or sub-sub. I have not used that feature yet, but I played with it by importing a story I wrote, then indexing it with this feature, then formatting the index exactly the same way as when you use the " index card" method. Once you have made all your entries (you can have up to sub-subentry level), in either mode, you press a button and the program compiles the index, formats it according to your specifications (it comes with all the common formats or you can create your own), verifies cross refs, changes punctuation, properly italicizes, (you can tell it to ital. all occurances of a word or phrase, or just one occurance such as a book title), and it does See and See also automatically. It lets you go in and edit at any point, it can switch quickly between run in and indented, it can sort in several different ways (letter, word, locator, etc.). It has many bells and whistles such as a notes field so you can leave yourself a note where you left off, or whatever. It exports to ASCII or RTF formats, and it does a whole bunch more stuff that I don't have time or room to tell you about. It has a great manual that is easy to read and shows the author's sense of humor and the fact that English is his second language, but you don't really need the manual as there is an incredible online context-sensitive help field right there at any moment. There are only a few disadvantages that I can see: it is driven by Hypercard (which comes free with your Mac) so it is slightly slowed down. It doesn't have a spell checker so I have had to export to Word to do that. I really can't think of anything else wrong with it. The biggest advantage is that if you need to do a particular complex routine, the author will write that routine especially for you. The other advantage is that he only wants $50 dollars for his program. You can reach him at Adetienn@indycms.iupui.edu and you could say Rachel sent you. Sorry this was so long, but I think this program is very worthy and should be known to others. RachelR ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:14:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Matthew Pressly H3-289 Subject: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am a beginner and I have a number of questions on how to index. Not the mechanics, but the mental processes and techniques involved. I've given some background first, then the questions. If anyone else has similar questions whose answsers would be of help to beginners, please feel free to send them to me, and I will compile them. I would like to put together a short document, like a FAQ, that would help beginning indexers get started -- something more in depth and more specific to that topic than the current FAQ for this group. If something like this already exists, please let me know. I'd also appreciate references to reading material for beginning indexers and comments on strong/weak points of that material. Feel free to email me directly if you don't want to bother the group. I'll compile all substantive responses. BACKGROUND: I'm a beginning indexer, doing indexing of some books on a voluntary basis in my spare time. I have completed two short books (<140pgs) over the last 2 years and am working on a third, about 280pgs. I am not the author of any of these. To give an idea of the subject matter, the book I am currently working is I guess what you would call a scholarly theological book. Most of the indexable matter is concepts. Only a small portion is proper names, and much of the material is a little difficult for me to name the terms for, or at least difficult to select which keyword is best to put it under -- it's not highly structured, and topics are not frequently distinctly named. I've read a number of books on indexing: 2 of R. Collison's, Knight's, parts of N. Mulvany's, 14th ed. of Chicago Manual of Style chapter on Indexing, and about 1/2 of Wellisch's Indexing A-Z, and these deal with alot of the mechanics of indexing, the format of the final index, the correct way to post names and such, but they don't really teach you how to index. I still have number of questions about how best to go about indexing -- not the mechanics of it, but the mental processes, term selection, questions you ask yourself while indexing, etc. The approaches I've been using have worked, but with this larger, more difficult book, I think there is alot of room for improvement. The most useful advice I've found thus far has been to index parts of a book that has an index that works good for you, then compare your results with those of the books index. So maybe the answer to these questions is that you just learn by trial and error and experience and develop and refine your approach by doing so, but if anyone can offer some advice that would help bring me and others up that learning curve a little faster it would be sincerely appreciated. Note: after reading this far, some may suggest taking a course in indexing, but I do not consider that to be an option at this point because of the expense inolved, since I am not pursuing indexing as a career. Questions: (1) After the preliminary reading of the book, when you are ready to start indexing. How do you usually proceed? Try to select terms at a very high level (more general) first (e.g. what term best describes this section as a whole? Or dive right in and index at the detail level, trying to simultaneously index subjects dealt with by only a few sentences or a paragraph along with those dealt with by entire sections or chapters? (2) What are some of the questions you ask yourself when indexing? (E.g. an obvious one is "what would someone look under to try to find this topic?", but what are some of the less obvious ones that a beginner should ask himself to keep himself on track?) (3) What criteria do you use to determine what constitutes "passing mention" that is not indexable versus "substantive discussion"? Many times the distinction is very obvious, but many times, there seems to be a very fine line -- I'm more interested in that fine line. I know that this will vary, but for most index entries, is it the subject of a phrase, a whole sentence, 2-3 sentences, a whole paragraph, ...? (4) What about topics that the author repeatedly refers back to when introducing new topics? Should these be indexed, generally? Or should only the key discussion of that topic be indexed? Or should that topic be indexed with modifiers showing how it relates to the the new topics? What criteria are used to decide between these and other options? (5) When you are going through the book selecting entries, do you generally try to think of every possible keyword (and modifier) to index a topic under at that time, or do you just try to select every indexable topic so that it will be on the index cards or in the computer and deal with indexing it under multiple places in the index later at the editing stage? Which approach seems to be more efficient? (6) Once you have indexed a set of page proofs, what is the most efficient means for dealing with changes in pagination? Much of the work I've been doing has to be done early, because I only index in my spare time, so I try to get a copy of the book in laser-printed form at some stage near the completion, but there are usually changes that force whole chapters off by anywhere from a single line to half a page. Multiples of full pages are easy, but what is the most effective means to deal with large numbers of partial pages being pushed to the next or previous pages? (7) How do you decide the depth at which to index? And keep yourself at a uniform indexing depth? I seem to tend towards the pitfall of overindexing at a very specific level and not be able to "see the forest for the trees", so to speak. What are some things I can do to help prevent this? Are there questions I can ask myself while indexing to help keep the correct depth? Thank you for your help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Pressly ...uunet!motsps!oakhill.sps.mot.com!mattp mattp@oakhill.sps.mot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:14:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter W Meyer Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hannah King wrote: >We've compared various indexing software now let's compare indexing >on the Internet. As an indexing tool, how would you compare gopher and >the web? Which does a better job in helping people locate information >on the Internet? Would you say gopher is more like a table of contents >and the web is more like an index? What about vocabulary control? >Number of "undifferentiated locators" meaning the list of files retrieved? >Does either of these finding tools provide some kind of cross-referencing? >Does either group like things together so that one term or phrase >gets one to appropriate information or do they both demand that you >consider too many entry points to assure comprehensive retrieval? > >Just curious if anyone is examining these tools as indexing tools besides >me. I think Hannah's annalogies of gopher to a table of contents and the web to an index are correct. The reference to vocabulary control points to the limitation with both resources. In a book library, there is a cotrolled vocabulary which assists us to locate individual works. There is no equivalent on gopher or the web. If by chance we find a particular work on the web, we are then at the whim of the indexer (in the creation of links) as to where we will be led from the starting point. There is no way to construct an exhaustive search. I don't know the solution, but it is a problem. Classification is the hardest job in information retrieval. Peter Meyer ______________________________________________________________________ Peter W Meyer pmeyer@magna.com.au Desktop Law Pty Limited Mobile: 61 18 245 128 10 Frances Street, Lindfield, NSW 2070 Fax: 61 2 416 9995 Australia ______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:24:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky Walton Subject: USDA Corr. Courses-Indexing [Moderator's note: I sent Becky the basic info about this course (address, and cost...Others may want to comment on length and quality] The recommendation has been made to me to take something called the "USDA Correspondence Courses" on indexing. Can anyone provide me any info on these courses, such as cost, length, quality, etc.? Thank you very much. Becky Walton Becky Walton College of Library & Information Science University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208 home address: 944-C Amberly Court Norcross, GA 30093 404/717-7047 MEOW! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:18:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Contr Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >> On Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:01:08 ECT, >> doug montalbano said: D> On 28 Mar 95, Hannah King (kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu) asks a dynamite D> series of questions: >> As an indexing tool, how would you compare gopher and the web? Which >> does a better job in helping people locate information on the Internet? >> Would you say gopher is more like a table of contents and the web is more >> like an index? .... [stuff deleted] D> The Internet is far too amorphous, and under the control of no one group D> (although there are conventions of a sort), and controlled by people who D> are of a different frame of mind than most indexers. The newsgroup comp.infosystems.interpedia was set up by some folks who want to create an Internet Encyclopedia. They haven't solved the problem of indexing the Internet, but there's been some interesting discussion about what's involved. The newsgroup is gatewayed to a mailing list. To subscribe, send mail to ip-vol-request@jg.cso.uiuc.edu. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:39:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: www vs gopher I find myself increasingly using gopher as an index to the web...especially if I need to locate a home page for an organization or type of organization. More times than not a veronica search will yield a web address for just what I am looking for when a search using webcrawler or some such resulted in nothing. ================================================ Charlotte Skuster Health Sciences Bibliographer and index-l moderator Binghamton University Libraries tel: (607) 777-4122 fax: (607) 777-2274 cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu