From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JUN-1995 15:08:43.60 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9505D" Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 15:09:41 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9505D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:56:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: johno@spry.com Subject: ISBN--ISSN---ISDN ISDN?? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Folks, I'm really sorry about my letter regarding ISBN numbers. I work at an Internet connectivity software company, and I had just walked out of a metting regarding ISDN digital phone lines. I neglected to switch industries before replying to Lisa's letter regarding ISBN/ISSN numbers. I thought she was doing a job regarding ISDN! I really need a vacation! Sorry again. My next response will be something that truly contributes to the listserv. John O. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * John Overbaugh johno@spry.com Technical Documentation SPRY, Inc. CompuServe Internet Division Makers of Internet In A Box and Internet Office Award-Winning PC to Internet Connectivity Solutions * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:56:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@aol.com Subject: Re: Ethics in indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jean, I like your idea of an running/introductory header explaining that items of particular relevance to the curriculum are indexed in greater depth. Indeed it is polite, also excuses the indexer, and makes clear the "character" of the index. thanks for the suggestion! Pilar L. Pilar Wyman Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD email: PilarW@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 15:01:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The points raised by Christine Jacobs were right on target, and I was very happy to see her posting. There *are* two different issues here. The first, to pick up all references, even passing references, to certain current buzzwords, would not pose an ethical dilemma to even the most principled indexer. That, to me, is an allowable stretching to satisfy the client; I would have no problem doing that. When it comes to omitting entries in order to *not* to pick up indexable material in order to satisfy a publisher's perceived need for political correctness -- there I see a definite moral choice, and that I couldn't do. IMO, our professional responsibility as indexers, is to provide an index that will guide the reader/searcher to any and all substantive information in the book. IMHO, it is our job to make accessible that which is in the book -- and not to weight the accessibility with our own, or the publisher's, preselection of terms. Once we begin to be selective about what *does* and *doesn't* show up in an index, we are no longer creating an impartial index that reflects what is in the book. At that point, we are slanting the index for other than the best principles. How much must one bend one's professional standards in that way in order to stay in business? It is my opinion that an indexer must always be aware that the amount of "filtering," to use Christine's word, done in creating an index is done by choice, and the less, the better. Beyond a certain point, the indexer is editorializing, and I definitely do not view this as appropriate, or ethical for an indexer. Another point must be mentioned passing. Selectivity during indexing, creating an index that eliminates "hotspots" or accentuates a politically correct point of view to satisfy the publisher's perception of the needs of a competitive market is also to do a disservice to the author. Since, under normal circumstances, the author will not see the index until after publication, introduction of a biased index late in the production process is unfair. The publisher has made a political statement using the author's material, under the author's name. As an author, I would protest the use of my name that way! There are limits beyond which an author will not want to go in order to sell his/her books, and he should have approval/disapproval rights, just as he/she does with editorial change to the manuscript early in the production process. With an index, his/her name is used without the chance to approve/disapprove. There seem to be very few people who share my views, but I will stand by my way. I could not omit entries during index creation and feel that I did my best quality, most professional job. This has been a most interesting thread! No matter what opinion one holds, it has been an excellent opportunity to think and re-think this question. Janet Perlman (jperlman@aol.com) Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 15:02:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Indexing personal experiences included in scholarly text ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Yesterday, I started indexing a scholarly sociology book on childbirth and >culture for an author. The author includes some of her personal experiences of >pregnancy, breastfeeding, childbirth, pregnancy, and sexual abuse by an >obstetrician in the book. She also tells about her relationship with her son, >from birth to age twenty. There is a large part of one chapter on this >relationship. She also discusses her life as a young woman, her current life, >and her relationships. She has very good reasons for including the personal >experiences, and explains them. > >I am not quite sure how to index these personal experiences. I am at present >using the term "personal experiences" as a subheading. First I used "author's >personal experiences." > >I would appreciate any suggestions about how to handle the indexing of these >personal experiences. Should I do broad indexing of these subjects, as I plan? >I cannot see indexing her personal experiences in as much detail as the rest of >the text. I am planning to index the personal experiences only as they relate >to the main subjects discussed in the text. I would index them once under her name: Author, Ima relationship with son pregnancy (etc.) And then treat them as discussions of those subjects, since she obviously intends them as illustrations of, e.g., breastfeeding. If she thinks it's important to flag the illustrations that are her own experiences, I suppose you could have entries like this: breastfeeding author's experiences childbirth author's experiences Otherwise, I would just treat them as normal subjects. If her description of the birth of her son takes up pages 30 through 42, then your entry might look like this: childbirth, 5-7, 30-42, 45-60 or whatever. I don't think I'd index those discussions under "personal experiences" or "author's personal experiences," because no one will look them up that way. Anyone who is looking for info about the author's personal experiences, would look under her name, right? Since this isn't an autobiography. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 15:03:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree you should try not to *add* a slant (political or otherwise) to the index that is not in the text. If, on the other hand, the author takes that slant in the text or explicitly tells you to take that slant, then you should. But notice that it's just as inappropriate to try to depoliticize in the index a text that *is* political as it is to add a slant that wasn't there. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 15:03:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard S. Day" Subject: Re: Pronunciations ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On 15 May at 15:22, you wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > This may be a simple question, but I'm new to the world of the net. Is > there an on line dictionary, or one accessible from Internet? I'm doing > a pronunciation guide for an index and need to find pronunciations for > Hawaiian, Japanese and Chinese words. I'm using WP's Random House, but > cannot find the very unusual. Thanks for ANY advice. > I cannot speak to the others, but I do foresee some problems with Chinese. The problems are (a) there is not a single Chinese language, but rather a collection of related dialects/languages, and (b) in my experience I have not come across a single, widely accepted pronunciation standard for any of the Chinese languages. If you focus on China's so-called "national" language, Putonghua and are writing for a primarily American audience, both Yale and Harvard over the years have done pronunciation guides of varying quality. I do not know if they are available on the net. Cantonese, the widely spoken (especially by Chinese immigrants to the Americas) has similar problems. There is not even widespread agreement on the number of tones used by Cantonese speakers: various authorities cite anywhere from six or seven to as many as ten. Probably your best bet, is to "adopt" one or another of the more common guides and cite it, so those who know the language based on another approach to the pronunciation, will understand what you are doing. And a final note: the recent trend has been to use modern Chinese romanization for Chinese words. For example, Guangzhou instead of Canton. While the former more accurately reflects the way a Putonghua speaker would pronounce the word, the latter is the form more readily recognized by a non-Chinese audience. Sorry if this is more confusing than helpful, but that tends to be the way things are with China and its languages. Good luck in your endeavours. Ric (who spent the past quarter century living in Hong Kong and learning how little he knows about the above subjects). -- ******************************************************** Richard Day net: ricday@mbfw451.mlnet.com MBF SYSTEMS CORP. CI$: 70521,2167 Lynnwood WA and Fax: +604 278 9679 Vancouver BC 451 : Professional Electronic Document Distribution ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 15:04:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: demonstration ASI Web site announcement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Those of you who have been subscribing to the list for a few months may remember that a group of us got together to create a Web site for ASI. Tah Dah! In record time, the cyber-committee that formed has developed a demonstration site on the Web and submitted a proposal to the ASI board to make it official. Here's the URL: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bero/ASI This is just a temporary location. Once the board approves the proposal (which is on the agenda for the June board meeting in Montreal), we'll move it to a permanent home. (I'll post the permanent URL on the list when the time comes. I'm sure we'll also embed a hyperlink from the temporary location to the new location in case anyone goes to the temporary location after we move it.) We also have links to the Indexing Conference on the Well site (recently announced here by Nancy Mulvany) and to the Austrailian SI site (also announced here by Dwight Walker, giving us the inspiration to create one for ASI). These are just a few of the useful links that you'll find there. Special kudos(sp?) have to go to the two cyber-committee members who actually put the site together, doing the HTML-coding, etc., Kari Bero and Jan Wright. They had it up and running three weeks after we organized the committee, doing a fantastic job in a short period of time. Even though this is a demo site, which is part of our proposal to the ASI board, it is a full-featured site with links that you, as indexers, will find useful right now! (And, we've only just begun! ;-) ) So, point your Web browser to it and take a look! A final note. One of the amazing things about this is that we accomplished all of this in cyberspace via e-mail. The only F2F involved was between our site developers, Kari and Jan. IMHO, this says a lot for cyberspace as an effective medium for groups of people to do serious work together. Enjoy the site! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs chair of the ad hoc ASI Web committee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:54:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: Twin Cities Chapter meeting ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The Twin Cities chapter of the American Society of Indexers will hold its June meeting on June 20, 1995, at 6:30 p.m. This gathering will be a potluck supper at the home of the chair, 1800 Iglehart Avenue, St. Paul, MN. It will also be a report on the national meeting in Montreal by chapter members who attended. This is the chapter's annual meeting, so there will be chapter business to discuss, including the results of chapter elections. RSVP to Maryann Corbett at 612-297-2952 (work) or 612-654-5985 (home) to let her know if you plan to attend and to get directions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:55:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: demonstration ASI Web site announcement In-Reply-To: <199505221904.OAA07413@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A slight correction of the demo site URL. It is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bero/ASI/index.htm Be sure to check it out and leave comments if you wish. We're pretty much done re-organizing, but if you notice inconsistencies or typos, let us know and we'll make changes. Just click on the names Kari Bero or Jan Wright, and you can drop us a note. Enjoy! Kari Bero bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:55:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Web Pages for The WeLL ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Indexers on The WeLL are pleased to announce that our Web pages >are now open for viewing. Our URL is: > > http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/index.htm > >Come take a look. Tell us what works and what doesn't. We even >have an index to the pages. > I'm being interviewed for an article in a trade journal called "Link." It is a publication for the publishers of yellow pages and other types of advertising directories. The topic is: how can such directories serve the home-based business? One question they have asked is my assessment of the Internet (particulary Web pages) as an advertising medium. Would it be advantageous to you if I worked the above information into my reply? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:55:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr@aol.com Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Original posting: Subj: Re: Ethics in Indexing Date: Mon, May 22, 1995 3:29 PM CST X-From: Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com (Carol Roberts) >...But notice that it's just as inappropriate to try to depoliticize in the index a text that *is* political as it is to add a slant that wasn't there....<< Carol, I agree that *de*politicizing a text in the index by substituting less biased terms for those used by the author is improper. When I stated that propagating the author's viewpoint in the index could be a quality problem, that is not what I was referring to. If the terminology used in the text is biased, and the resulting index hides information from a user who is not aware of the author's viewpoint, then the index does not serve the user and has a quality problem. It is the indexer's responsibility to remedy this situation if possible, perhaps by a moderate number of additional postings under more "neutral" terms. An example would be if the *only* references to "environmental groups" in the text occur in discussions of "special interests." If that viewpoint carries to the index, then perhaps "environmental groups" could only be found as a subheading of "special interests." That is a quality problem. Larry Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:55:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: demonstration ASI Web site announcement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Those of you who have been subscribing to the list for a few months may >remember that a group of us got together to create a Web site for ASI. >Tah Dah! In record time, the cyber-committee that formed has developed >a demonstration site on the Web and submitted a proposal to the ASI >board to make it official. Here's the URL: > >http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bero/ASI > I had to add /index.htm on the end: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bero/ASI/index.htm >Mulvany) and to the Austrailian SI site (also announced here by Dwight >Walker, giving us the inspiration to create one for ASI). These are Up there Kazali!! :-) >Special kudos(sp?) have to go to the two cyber-committee members who >actually put the site together, doing the HTML-coding, etc., Kari Bero >and Jan Wright. They had it up and running three weeks after we >organized the committee, doing a fantastic job in a short period of >time. > So committees are quick - but what a goal to strive for though - you'll get some thrills when you see how far and wide the users come from. >Even though this is a demo site, which is part of our proposal to the >ASI board, it is a full-featured site with links that you, as indexers, >will find useful right now! (And, we've only just begun! ;-) ) So, >point your Web browser to it and take a look! > I have had a quick look (10 mins) and it is terrific. I really enjoyed your links to publishers on that UK site. I also took a leaf from your book about listing members and past prize receivers... Good on ya Lynn Cheers Dwight ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker dwalker@zeta.org.au +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 15:02:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Author's Contract and Index Quality ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >. I hear this lament over and >over again in the writing forums here on AOL: I didn't know I had to produce >the index or else lose part of my income on the book! These abusive and >misleading contracts need to be assigned to the dustbin. This is something I >would like to see ASI actively working on through liaisons with publishing >trade associations. > >Comments? > >Larry Harrison > > > The assumption of publishers that authors should be responsible for the indexing of a book (even when the publishers acknowledge, in the same breath, that professional indexers usually do a better job!), always amazes me. I have sometimes wondered whether liason with Societies of Authors might also be useful, although perhaps non-fiction authors are not so likely to be in these societies? I have also noticed that most of the books that I index are edited works with many authors; presumably most of those with just one author are indexed by the authors. One thing that indexing does here is show up the variance in terminology used by all the different authors. Glenda Browne. Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 15:02:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Many publishers recognize the fact that good indexes make books more >marketable. > >*Buzzwords* in industry or academic texts (and indexes) can make books >more marketable. I've had clients who requested that the index point to >every instance of certain *buzzwords*, no matter where they occur in the >text (even if they appear to be a passing mention). And I've done as they >asked, even though their guidelines did not agree with my own standards >for a quality index. > The request of publishers for an indexer to index all mentions of certain topics assumes that this will enhance the marketability of the book; that is, that more people will buy the book, or it will be more favourably reviewed, if it has more mentions of topics such as minority groups. Indexing passing mentions of these groups results in an index that initially makes the book look better, but on futher examination will make it, and the index, look, worse, because there will not be significant bits of information in the text. If extra index mentions of these minority groups, even if inappropriate, will improve the marketability of the book, because they refer to current concerns, then surely the sensible thing for the publisher to do would be to get the author to put more information on these topics into the book. Then the indexer could happily and appropriately index these topics, and users who consult the index would actually be satisfied by the information they find. If the publisher thought about this issue logically from the beginning then the indexer would never need this anguish. Glenda Browne. Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:41:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Meeting in Milwaukee ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- There will be an informal indexers' meeting in Milwaukee on June 3, noon to 2 p.m., Schwartz's bookshop, 4093 N. Oakland, Shorewood (a Milwaukee suburb). The purpose of this first meeting is to get acquainted, discuss what we want out of future meetings, discuss what kinds of indexing we do, and whatever else time permits. This is *not* a chapter meeting--there is no Wisconsin chapter--but it is an opportunity for us to get together informally rather than forgoing meetings altogether. Please RSVP off-list if you can come, so I have an idea of the numbers. Likewise if you need more details or driving directions. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:41:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: demonstration ASI Web site announcement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My apologies to everyone for posting an incomplete URL for our Web site! Remind me not to do anything important before my second cup of coffee in the morning. :-) Dwight, >So committees are quick - but what a goal to strive for though - you'll get some thrills when you see how far and wide the users come from. > I think the fact that our committee met entirely in cyberspace had something to do with our success, at least the speed of our accomplishment. For one, we didn't have to accomodate people's schedules to establish meeting times, a common difficulty with arranging "physical committee meetings". Second, time wasn't spent in idle chitchat, which despite its value in terms of bonding among members of physical committees, does take away time from performing the task at hand. Third, because we had to write to each other via email, I think this had a positive effect on the level of creativity involved. Usually writing, vs. speaking, forces one to reflect much more deeply on the issues at hand and IMHO gets the synapses firing in the creative compartment of the brain. :-) People were interacting on the basis of ideas rather than personalities which helped us remain focused. The intellectual synergy we had going was far more than what I've ever seen in physical meetings (except for structured brainstorming sessions). I also have to credit the email exchanges I had with Nancy Mulvany who was simultaneously working on the Indexing Conference on the Well's site which had a positive impact on my bit of work on the committee. In all, I think the process was just as fascinating as the product we produced and should be considered as an potentially powerful method for working in groups. >Up there Kazali!! :-) Whatever or whoever Kazali is, thanks anyway. ;-D >I have had a quick look (10 mins) and it is terrific. I really enjoyed your links to publishers on that UK site. I also took a leaf from your book about listing members and past prize receivers... > See what I mean about intellectual synergy? We're inspiring each other and I'm looking forward to seeing how you incorporate these ideas into your site! :-D On behalf of the committee, many thanks for your compliments! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs