========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 15:30:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Claude Martine Subject: ** WANTED ** ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would like to know if anybody knows about any social sciences periodical index that has won a prize or some special mention. If so, please have the kindness to let me know. Thank you, Martine Claude Claudem@ere.Umontreal.ca Ecole de Bibliotheconomie et des sciences de l'information Universite de Montreal. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:04:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@compuserve.com> Subject: Indexing/Sci-fi story ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Another technical writer sent me an e-mail message and mentioned that she remembers reading a science fiction short story that used indexing as part of the story line. She thinks she may have read it in Fantasy & Science Fiction magazine, but she can't find it in any of her back issues. Her note to me says: The story itself used Asimov's Foundation characters. The main character's wife was an indexer in the library. The indexers had one whole floor of the library, and it was kind of like a holodeck (Star Trek), and every day, the offices that the indexers worked in changed, to give them new insights into how the information they were indexing was related to other information. If you or anyone you know knows of this story, or how I could find it again, I'd really appreciate it.! If you've read this story or know where it was published, please let me know. Thanks much! ************************************************************************ Lori Lathrop ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Phone - 303-567-4011 / Fax - 303-567-9306 ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:19:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JCPO@aol.com Subject: Re: Library thesauri ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm enjoying Peter Meyer's thread about creating graphical displays of subject terms in a hierarchy. On 2/20 Peter responded to a number of replies to his original posting: I have selected a few bits to comment upon. >> My query may have confused the interface issues with the need to create the hierarchical thesaurus system behind it. and then later >>The example I gave in my original posting was of a display I had created using the Macintosh Finder.... The basic hierarchy of subject terms is filled out with the use of aliases to provide synonym cross references... These aliases do not even need the same names as the original items. I must say that I've never heard of someone using the Mac Finder as a database application. I guess that either you used AppleEvents under System 7.5 or you manually create hundreds of aliases for documents or you were using a separate program that manipulated the Finder? How did you handle multiple docs with the same subject? From the description it seems that your system was more than a thesaurus, really, since it enacted document retrieval. It seems to me that a thesaurus - at least a printed one - consists in the broad sense entirely of its interface. I mean, it just lays there on the desk displaying its information. It doesn't DO anything. An electronic thesaurus would at least automate the user's turning of pages and scanning blobs of text, but so far it wouldn't be linked to the actual documents. So it seems that you want a sort of self-thesaurusising information storage and retrieval system. This would be a good thing. Peter quoted Ned Bedinger: >... that you could facilitate > searches by targetting a vertical zone of information in an explicit > hierachy, is an intriguingly marvelous idea that suggests information > _roles_. When you say roles, do you may mean the same thing as facets? > But then > the lucky searcher can access a list of all information trees that > contain each given synonym, and even unfold each tree to examine the > structures in search of one that matches the expectation of where the > sought-after information should lie. What I want to ask is: Is this unfolding of trees metaphorical - describing the searcher's experience navigating through hierarchies - or is it meant to describe the proposed graphical image/structure so that one would see something like a scene from Star Trek with text receeding and zooming in closer as one 'swam' about a dense web? Or perhaps you'd be on an infinitely large piece of paper that would unfold the trees and you could zoom in and out to scan the surface? John Chapot San Francisco "Chaucer's compatriots enunciated every letter when saying the word 'knight'. Try it." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:59:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: vivian@sri.com Subject: Re: Indexing/Sci-fi story ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I think your friend was referring to "The Originist" by Orson Scott Card. It was originally published in "Foundation's Friends," ed. Martin Harry Greenberg (Tor, 1989). It is also in "Maps in a Mirror" a huge hardcopy compilation of Card's works, and in "Flux" a paperback version of one section of "Maps in a Mirror." Vivian >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Another technical writer sent me an e-mail message and mentioned that she >remembers reading a science fiction short story that used indexing as >part of the story line. She thinks she may have read it in Fantasy & >Science Fiction magazine, but she can't find it in any of her back >issues. Her note to me says: > > The story itself used Asimov's Foundation characters. The main > character's wife was an indexer in the library. The indexers > had one whole floor of the library, and it was kind of like a > holodeck (Star Trek), and every day, the offices that the > indexers worked in changed, to give them new insights into > how the information they were indexing was related to other > information. If you or anyone you know knows of this story, > or how I could find it again, I'd really appreciate it.! > >If you've read this story or know where it was published, please let me >know. Thanks much! > >************************************************************************ >Lori Lathrop ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com >Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 >Phone - 303-567-4011 / Fax - 303-567-9306 >************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:00:05 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MikeMAPS@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing/Sci-fi story ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lori Lathrop wrote... > Another technical writer sent me an e-mail message and mentioned that she > remembers reading a science fiction short story that used indexing as > part of the story line. She thinks she may have read it in Fantasy & > Science Fiction magazine, but she can't find it in any of her back > issues. Her note to me says: > The story itself used Asimov's Foundation characters. The main > character's wife was an indexer in the library. The indexers > had one whole floor of the library, and it was kind of like a > holodeck (Star Trek), and every day, the offices that the > indexers worked in changed, to give them new insights into > how the information they were indexing was related to other > information. If you or anyone you know knows of this story, > or how I could find it again, I'd really appreciate it.! The story your friend is looking for is called "The Originist" by Orson Scott Card. I read it in a volume called "Foundation's Friends" edited by Martin H. Greenberg published by Tom Doherty Associates, inc. 49 West 24 Street New York, NY 10010 A very entertaining and thought provoking story.... and homage to Dr. Asimov. Mike Riley Sr. Systems Analyst Preservation Resources mike_riley@oclc.org MikeMAPS@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:05:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Cindex review In-Reply-To: <9502232349.AA00618@core.symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I saved the Macrex review that was recently printed here, but I'm afraid I've deleted the Cindex review. Would anyone still have a copy? If so, I would be most grateful if you'd forward it to me. Many thanks! Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Always read stuff that will make you look good if you die in the middle of it."--P. J. O'Rourke ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 13:23:25 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BOB KROVETZ Subject: indexing/Sci-Fi story ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I don't know the story that was mentioned in Lori Lathrop's message, but I do remember reading another story involving indexing and science fiction. I believe it was in Fantasy and Science Fiction, and it involved building an index to all the world's knowledge. The index was unfortunately lost, and as a result all of the knowledge was inaccessible. I think Hans Wellisch cited it in one of his articles in The Indexer. Does anyone remember the story I'm thinking of? Bob krovetz@cs.umass.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 13:24:14 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RachelR@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing/Sci-fi story ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'd like to know about this story, too. I'm a scifi fan, and this sounds like a good 'un! RachelR ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 13:27:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter W Meyer Subject: Re: Library thesauri ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John Chapot (JCPO@aol.com) wrote: >I must say that I've never heard of someone using the Mac Finder as a >database application. I guess that either you used AppleEvents under System >7.5 or you manually create hundreds of aliases for documents or you were >using a separate program that manipulated the Finder? I guess this calls for a discussion about a specific application and some examples. I'm sorry of we are losing the necessary level of abstraction to make this of more general interest. Yes, the Macintosh Finder is a database application. I believe it is an example of a hierarchical database. True, it is a very specialised database application in its role as the right hand of the Macintosh operating system and that undoubtedly affects our perception about what it is. Anyway, back to your query about aliases. The example I created was only small with around 1,000 documents. The whole thing was built up as the documents were created. Creating aliases manually was not a problem for new entries. Someone has to type in subject terms when entering a record into a conventional catalogue. This is similar - create a new alias and drag it to the folder in which you want it to appear. Cataloguing and filing are done in a single operation. If you don't like the way it looks, drag a file or an alias somewhere else or change the name of a folder, file or alias. Note that on the Macintosh, when you drag or rename files in the Finder you are manipulating the actual directory structure, not just icons. It would be a fairly simple matter to write an AppleScript to automate the process of creating the folders, aliases and even naming files if you have a predefined structure in an existing database. It is also quite easy to print out a complete hierarchical listing or a listing of all files with their applicable hierarchical classifications. I digress, the point of my discussion is not about actually using the Finder for a large library database but extracting the lessons which can be applied in a more powerful library application. For me, those lessons are that if a collapsible/expandable hierarchy is well balanced for the screen on which it is to be displayed, users find it very easy to navigate to documents they seek. Users can see what *is there* very easily. By excluding apparently irrelevant branches, the searcher is led to those branches and ultimately records which should be most relevant. They can display as little or as much of the hierarchy as they wish, provided it will fit onto the screen display. They can move up or down the hierarchy with ease. It is worth recalling that my original question was whether any readers had experience with large hierarchical systems and whether the concept I outlined is scalable to large databases. >How did you handle multiple docs with the same subject? Simply place all the files (or aliases to files stored elsewhere) in the appropriate folder. The whole idea is that when a user searches for documents with a particular subject, he or she is led to all the files of that type. With 31 character file names it is usually possible to distinguish the various entries but I admit that 31 chars is a bit of a limitation in itself. You would have no hope with an 8 plus 3 system. >It seems to me that a thesaurus - at least a printed one - consists in the >broad sense entirely of its interface. I mean, it just lays there on the desk >displaying its information. It doesn't DO anything. An electronic thesaurus >would at least automate the user's turning of pages and scanning blobs of >text, but so far it wouldn't be linked to the actual documents. You are correct about the paper based thesaurus but the point of my proposal is to ensure that the/an electronic representation of the thesaurus is linked to the actual documents. See my response to your next point. >So it seems that you want a sort of self-thesaurusising information storage >and retrieval system. This would be a good thing. That's about it, not much to ask really! Returning to the Macintosh Finder example I gave before, what the user sees on screen is the part of the thesaurus used by current records in the database as represented in the directory/folder names. In addition they have a navigation structure (collapsible/expandable tree structure) to lead searchers to the actual documents classified according to the thesaurus. >Peter quoted Ned Bedinger: > >>... that you could facilitate >> searches by targetting a vertical zone of information in an explicit >> hierachy, is an intriguingly marvelous idea that suggests information >> _roles_. > >When you say roles, do you may mean the same thing as facets? That is Ned's term, and I invite him to clarify this further for us, lest I misinterpret him. >> But then >> the lucky searcher can access a list of all information trees that >> contain each given synonym, and even unfold each tree to examine the >> structures in search of one that matches the expectation of where the >> sought-after information should lie. > >What I want to ask is: Is this unfolding of trees metaphorical - describing >the searcher's experience navigating through hierarchies - or is it meant to >describe the proposed graphical image/structure so that one would see >something like a scene from Star Trek with text receeding and zooming in >closer as one 'swam' about a dense web? Or perhaps you'd be on an infinitely >large piece of paper that would unfold the trees and you could zoom in and >out to scan the surface? OK, OK, you have had you fun! Lets set aside the allegory and return to the real story. Can I suggest that you take a look at the Macintosh Finder (System 7.x) using "View by Name", you will see what is meant. Emulations of a similar structure can be seen under Windows as well. I take Ned to describe a tree structure in which the searcher can hide or reveal branches while searching. That is also what I meant. I guess its the second alternative you offer but I'm afraid you have lost me with the Star Trek immagery. Peter Meyer ______________________________________________________________________ Peter W Meyer pmeyer@magna.com.au Desktop Law Pty Limited Mobile: 61 18 245 128 10 Frances Street, Lindfield, NSW 2070 Fax: 61 2 416 9995 Australia ______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 13:30:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Georgianna Subject: Re: Indexing/Sci-fi story In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:59:18 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Colleagues (uh oh, she's going to ask for something!) Those of you who are in libraries, could you please ask your conservator co-workers if they know of any non-commercial conservation lists. A friend of mine knows of fee-based lists, but is interested in a FREE exchange of ideas. If anyone knows of one, please write to ulses@vm.cc.olemiss.edu Thank you, Georgianna Henry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:46:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: indexing/Sci-Fi story In-Reply-To: <9502280117.AA02765@carson.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In Orson Scott Card's "Homecoming" trilogy of novels (THE MEMORY OF EARTH; THE CALL OF EARTH; and THE SHIPS OF EARTH) one of the key plot elements involves the theft and use of the Index to the Oversoul (the computer which has controlled civilization on the planet Harmony for millions of years. The Oversoul actually engineers the theft of its own Index from its corrupt guardian because it is aware of the knowledge that had been lost thru the ages and which is inaccessible without the Index. Could be that excerpts from one of the novels was published in F&SF at some point, although I think I first saw it in Asimov's Magazine before I read the first book in the trilogy. (Wouldn't bet money on it, however!) Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Mon, 27 Feb 1995, BOB KROVETZ wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I don't know the story that was mentioned in Lori Lathrop's message, > but I do remember reading another story involving indexing and science > fiction. I believe it was in Fantasy and Science Fiction, and it involved > building an index to all the world's knowledge. The index was unfortunately > lost, and as a result all of the knowledge was inaccessible. I think Hans > Wellisch cited it in one of his articles in The Indexer. Does anyone > remember the story I'm thinking of? > > Bob > > krovetz@cs.umass.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:47:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Pfeffer, Andrea" Subject: Thesaurus Construction Software Info. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who responded to my original e-mail regarding the use of thesaurus construction software in: 1) a PC-based stand alone environment and 2) an ORACLE environment. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:54:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Jane Northrop Subject: Request for CINDEX info ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Could someone please send me information on how to get the demo version of CINDEX. Thanks in advance, Mary Jane Northrop University of Michigan mjn@umich.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:28:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Means Subject: late index jobs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi people, I have a question about indexing jobs that arrive late. I work for university presses, and following their lead, I contract for the job verbally and fairly informally over the phone. Sometimes, an individual press will ask for a signed contract, which usually arrives at the same time as the proofs to be indexed. I have contracted with a university press (which shall remain unnamed!) for a job which was to arrive in mid February. I have heard from the editor several times, and now expect it to arrive in mid March. Because I agreed to take on this job a couple of months in advance, I had to turn away quite a few jobs which would have interfered. Fortunately, as I learned of the delay, I was able to squeeze in a couple of very short indexes. However, I am still left with almost three weeks of no work. A mixed blessing. ItUs great to have a break, and IUm glad I was able to squeeze in a couple of quick jobs, but I am still losing money due to a verbal agreement which was not kept. Can anyone advise me? I have experienced delays in the past (I have been indexing for university presses for over 4 years), but none has impacted me financially quite as dramatically as this one is. I suppose I need information on contracts, and how one should handle this type of situation. Thanks for your help! Julie --