From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JUN-1995 15:09:06.78 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9505C" Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 15:09:40 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9505C" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:21:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Holiday Subject: Abstractors/Indexers Wanted ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Subject: Time: 10:48 AM OFFICE MEMO Abstractors/Indexers Wanted Date: 5/10/95 Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) located in McLean, Virginia has a few part-time positions available for Abstractors/Indexers. In addition, one full-time entry-level position for a Document Processor is available, requiring basic indexing skills. This work supports SAIC's operation of the DoD Radiation Experiments Command Center (RECC), a resource center for historic information on radiation research programs during the Cold War. This center serves the public, the Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments, and members of Congress to provide information about research programs and the occurrence of human exposure to radiation. For the abstracting positions, the option to work off-site (e.g. at home) or on-site at SAIC is available, depending on availability of computer resources. Job descriptions are as follows: ABSTRACTORS/INDEXERS Perform indexing and abstracting of all historic materials on Department of Defense (DoD) human radiation research, and other materials managed within the purview of the DoD Radiation Experiments Command Center. Must have the ability to easily recognize and capture the relevant information from documents in abstract form and be able to apply appropriate indexing terms for fast, easy retrieval by various levels of users. Must help implement policies for security, retention, access, disposition, and protection of individual privacy. Help provide quality control checks and proofreading of indexing done by other staff members. Computer Experience Desired: MS Access Hours: flexible Salary: Dependent upon experience Minimum Qualifications: Some training in library or information science , cataloging, abstracting or indexing. Demonstrated indexing, abstracting, and writing capability required. DOCUMENT PROCESSOR Responsible for multiple tasks related to basic indexing and preparing documents for optical imaging and scanning operations. Basic indexing includes recording document ID numbers and other bibliographic information to describe documents in a database for multiple users. Scanning includes operating scanning and other appropriate equipment and software to produce document images associated with database records. Activities include presorting and unbinding materials for scanning, and may include photocopying original historical materials for their preservation. Maintains hardcopy library collection by filing documents in order. Assists with photocopying and forwarding documents to other agencies and government offices. Helps implement security protocols to prevent uncontrolled access to materials. Familiarity with using databases, indexing basics and the Windows environment highly desirable. Minimum Qualifications: High school diploma plus 1 year related experience. Salary: Dependent on experience. For either position, please contct: Joanne Holiday SAIC 1710 Goodridge Drive E-6-2 McLean, VA 22102 joanne_holiday@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:22:14 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Greenhouse Subject: Pronunciations ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This may be a simple question, but I'm new to the world of the net. Is there an on line dictionary, or one accessible from Internet? I'm doing a pronunciation guide for an index and need to find pronunciations for Hawaiian, Japanese and Chinese words. I'm using WP's Random House, but cannot find the very unusual. Thanks for ANY advice. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:22:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LQHorowitz@aol.com Subject: indexer's assistant ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- (I posted this same message last week on the AOL indexing message board and thought I'd try here as well! Thank you to those of you who already replied.) I am a relatively new indexer and rather than trying to establish my own private practice at this time, I am exploring the possibility of working part-time as a (long-distance) assistant to other indexers. I am thinking along the lines of providing temporary assistance, on an "as needed" basis, to other indexers. As an indexer, have you ever hired an assistant to help you finish a project? Or have you ever wished that you could find someone to take on some of the routine aspects of a particular job, leaving you free to handle the rest of the index and meet your deadline? (For example: entering names of cited authors, or items in tables, or glossary words; vetting a manuscript; etc.) Is this a genuine need of indexers? What are the drawbacks for the indexer? Could this work long-distance? What would you be looking for in an assistant? For purposes of this discussion, let me give you a little background information about myself. I have taken the USDA correspondence course and have had a few paid projects. I use professional indexing software and my computer equipment includes a fax/modem. I'd appreciate any feedback on this idea, either here on Index-L or e-mail me directly. Thanks for your interest! Lynn Horowitz Albany, New York (lqhorowitz@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:25:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: jgreenb From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: announcement of SAC program ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The SAC Program Planning Subcommittee apologizes for cross postings. Please feel free to distribute this announcement to other appropriate lists. ********************************************************************* ANNOUNCEMENT OF SUBJECT ANALYSIS COMMITTEE PROGRAM ********************************************************************* The ALCTS/CCS Subject Analysis Committee will sponsor a program at the ALA annual conference in Chicago on Sunday, June 25, 2:00-5:30, McCormick Place Complex, Room E-152. The program is entitled "Crisis in Subject Cataloging and Retrieval" and is co-sponsored by the RASD/MOPSS/Catalog Use Committee. The program will address the fact that in the profession at large there is an erosion of confidence in subject cataloging as a cost effective endeavor. This perception is so widespread that those of us who are committed to subject access need to ask ourselves where the failure lies. Issues addressed in this program will include an historical perspective, administrative issues, public service aspects, education for the profession, cultural barriers, and implications for the future. Speakers and their topics are: Arlene G. Taylor, Associate Professor, School of Library and Information Science, University of Pittsburgh -- "Introduction to the Crisis" Francis L. Miksa, Professor, Graduate School of Library and Information Science, University of Texas at Austin -- Bibliographic Control Traditions and Subject Access in Library Catalogs" Sheila S. Intner, Professor, Graduate School of Library and Information Science, Simmons College -- "Subject Access Education--Oxymoron or Obligation?" Thomas Mann, Reference Librarian, Library of Congress -- "Cataloging and Reference Work" Michael Gorman, Dean of Libraries, California State University at Fresno -- "The Cost and Value of Organized Subject Access" During and at the end of the program, time will be allocated for audience questions and comments. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 09:15:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dave Strickler Subject: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Colleagues, I recently completed my first back-of-the-book index for a large middle school textbook publisher. When I asked the editor for his appraisal, he responded that it was one of the better indexes they had ever gotten, but that I needed to be very careful to index every mention of certain sensitive subjects, no matter how fleeting and insubstantial that mention in the text: Christianity, African-Americans, Native Americans, democracy, free enterprise, and the like. Seems that index detail on hot-button topics is an important marketing consideration, to the extent that some publishers even count the number of citations of, say, Hispanics in their competitors' texts in order to claim that they provide greater coverage of the subject. Although of course the editor has no wish to manufacture citations out of thin air, he does urge the most minute attention possible to these critical subjects (a list of which he thoughtfully provides). He urges, in effect, an index that is unbalanced in depth, requiring citation of every mention of some subjects (e.g., Christianity) but not of other subjects (e.g., Islam), in contradiction of good indexing practice. I wonder if anyone else has encountered this requirement to surrender index consistency (and possibly quality) to marketing expediency, and how (s)he deals with it. Many thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 09:15:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: carpool to Montr#al ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Fellow ASI Members from western Mass., eastern N.Y. State, western Connecticut, or thereabouts, If you are driving to the Montr#al Conference June 7, and would like company and someone with whom to share the expenses of the road, and would be traveling through or close to Williamstown, Mass. on your way, please get in touch with me. I have an eye disease which prevents me from driving (for the good not only of myself but of all humankind), so I cannot share driving duties, but on that account consider I should pay the lion's share of the gas cost. I smoke not, neither do I sing while a passenger in someone's car, nor have been prone to carsickness since passing the age of twelve. I can chat or hold my tongue just as suits the driver and other passengers. Given notice, I can prepare a mean box lunch for two or more. If interested, please respond to my direct email address below. Best regards, Alison Chipman, Editor, Art & Architecture Thesaurus achipman@aat.getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:20:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robert I Berkman Subject: MAID/Profound Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello, I am on the business librarians list BUSLIB, and was given the suggestion to try querying this list on my question. Has anyone tried, or have comments on the M.A.I.D. (now Profound Inc. in the USA) method of creating a standard controlled vocabulary for a variety of business databases (e.g. Reuters, PROMT, IAC, etc.) to allow users to seamlessly cross search these files? Is accuracy maintained? Are there trade-offs to this approach--are they major or minor? Any comments would be most appreciated. I will be reviewing this product for The Information Advisor newsletter. Your comments may be anonymous if you so choose. Thanks. Bob Berkman berkman@selway.umt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:21:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@compuserve.com> Subject: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >> Seems that index detail on hot-button topics is an important marketing consideration, to the extent that some publishers even count the number of citations of, say, Hispanics in their competitors' texts in order to claim that they provide greater coverage of the subject. >>Although of course the editor has no wish to manufacture citations out of thin air, he does urge the most minute attention possible to these critical subjects (a list of which he thoughtfully provides). He urges, in effect, an index that is unbalanced in depth, requiring citation of every mention of some subjects (e.g., Christianity) but not of other subjects (e.g., Islam), in contradiction of good indexing practice. >>I wonder if anyone else has encountered this requirement to surrender index consistency (and possibly quality) to marketing expediency, and how (s)he deals with it. While I think I understand your concern, it could be worse. I'm in the middle of a situation right now where there's pressure to *prevent* access to certain subjects in a school-oriented product because of customer demands. It's unclear how this demand will be met -- probably not editorially but by manipulating the product itself. For a long time, Texas ruled the nation in a way. They had statewide textbook adoption, and were very fussy about inclusion of "controversial" topics -- like evolution. Since they were such a huge market, publishers tended to water down the texts they sold to everyone to meet the demands of Texas. I've heard that Texas has now abandoned statewide adoption, and all the publishers are wondering how they are going to decide what to put in their texts and what to leave out. If I had to choose, I'd prefer having to cover minor occurrences to leaving out important information. It is almost a Hobson's choice, however. Jessica Milstead ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:21:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dave, I'm amazed that a publisher sought to interfere with good indexing practice with his/her recommended indexing guidelines on "sensitive topics." I've never encountered this in many years of indexing. My gut reaction is that I would not want to work for this publisher. There are plenty of other publishers who will permit you the freedom to produce a professional quality index using ethical standards, and who will not seek to compromise your standards for the sake of marketing one-upmanship. I wouldn't take any more work from that publisher if it were me. I don't know if it would do any good to tell the publisher why, but I'd do that too the next time they offered me work. I wouldn't make a point of it now, after the fact with that job, but I'd sure let them know under what conditions I *would* and *would not* work. Maybe not everybody's so principled. I am. Janet Perlman (jperlman@aol.com) Southwest Indexing Scottsdale, AZ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:21:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Web Pages for The WeLL ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Indexers on The WeLL are pleased to announce that our Web pages are now open for viewing. Our URL is: http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/index.htm Come take a look. Tell us what works and what doesn't. We even have an index to the pages. If you have meetings of interest to indexers to announce, please send a *brief* description to nmulvany@well.com Nancy Mulvany Host, Indexing Conference on The WeLL nmulvany@well.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:23:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shore Editorial Services Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- With regard to editors requesting uneven indexing (i.e., special attention paid to certain sensitive topics): no, I haven't had this happen, but it seems to me that you have two alternatives: go along with it, or take a stand. Only you can judge how important an issue it is to you (we all have to choose our battles). And as always, taking a stand means taking a risk, since you might well lose the clietn. On the other hand, if the client wants you to commit "bad indexing," do you really want to work for that client? The decision is yours. Good luck! Lys Ann Shore Shore Editorial Services Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:23:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jeff Finlay, NYU" Organization: St. Peter's College, US Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I wonder if anyone else has encountered this requirement to surrender > index consistency (and possibly quality) to marketing expediency, and how > (s)he deals with it. I've come across this too. I guess it's a market consideration rather than a matter of ethics. I don't know one has to surrender consistency so much as make sure the hot buttons are included in addition to the materials. Given that you indexed a textbook, and that multicultural classes are a key consideration in the textbook trade, I don't think your publisher was out of line in stressing this point. A book for schools that ignores non-US cultures is going to bomb in the stores. Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:24:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Pronunciations ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >This may be a simple question, but I'm new to the world of the net. Is >there an on line dictionary, or one accessible from Internet? I'm doing >a pronunciation guide for an index and need to find pronunciations for >Hawaiian, Japanese and Chinese words. I'm using WP's Random House, but >cannot find the very unusual. Thanks for ANY advice. > Microsoft are apparently trialling their Bookshelf package (now, or Real Soon Now) as an on-line service. This contains the American Heritage Dictionary, which is not huge, but may meet your needs.Browse to http://www.microsoft.com for further information. Jonathan Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:24:25 ECT Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: indexer's assistant ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lynn: Regarding your question, yes, indexers need assistants. But I recommend working with someone locally rather than long-distance because of deadlines, need for conferring regularly until you are both sure you work well together, and that sort of thing. Also, the cost of duplicating pages and mailing them can eat up a lot of the "profit" in an indexing job. I have worked successfully with 2 trainees, and many other indexers have also had assistants. You might want to ask among the members of the New York State chapter of ASI. I would recommend that as a reasonable starting point. Barbara ## -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing and Editorial Services becohen@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:25:29 ECT Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Regarding the weighted indexing of topics: indexing is always rather selective, and I think that sometimes the definition of what is biased and what is balanced can be rather subjective. I have several computer software clients who require the indexing of every trade name, even passing mentions. That strikes me as political (or just covering their tails in case they need to search for every reference to every use of soemthing), but I generally go along with the request. Yes, it makes for some unbalanced entries, but on the other hand, I feel that the subject categories are really the heart of these particular indexes anyway, so I tell myself that no one is going to notice a few overburdened entries if the rest of the index is great. Other comments? Barbara E. Cohen becohen@prairienet.org ## -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing and Editorial Services becohen@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:25:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Zolnerzak Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing In-Reply-To: <199505161319.GAA20111@netcomsv.netcom.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- To me that didn't sound so much like "ethics" (though your Christianity/Islam example tried to slant it that way) and lots like "marketing." I've produced dozens of school texts that contained HUNDREDS of stupid entries, like Exercises, 3,4,5,6,9,11,13,15......you get the idea. I can't argue with them that it sells texts; I can't argue when they agree to pay a lot for nonsense entries; I just DO it. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:22:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 May 95 09:21:28 +0700." ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On the subject of "consistency" versus picking up all the sensitive topics the client wants picked up: I would like to suggest that the rules are not always and everywhere the same. Indexers of laws or statutes would, I think, consider it reasonable to pay special attention to those topics that the index users would be most anxious to find. If there's an important body of new law on a topic, people will be looking in the index for that, and they'll want to see the whole picture in detail. Sometimes the addition of a lot of new law on an old topic means the indexer must re-index the existing law in more detail, to match the detail needed for the new law. Of course, every law is important to some subset of the public, so there's a good argument for careful, nitpicky coverage of everything. Still, on a hot-button topic, the indexer knows that there will be a larger-than- usual audience of users at different levels of knowledge about that law or laws in general. Deeper coverage of those areas means that you are concentrating your effort where a large number of your users will benefit from it. My two cents. Maryann Corbett maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:22:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@aol.com Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-05-17 09:37:22 EDT, Bob writes: > I've produced dozens of school texts that contained HUNDREDS >of stupid entries, like Exercises, 3,4,5,6,9,11,13,15.. I've only done a couple of elementary/high school teacher's manuals, but I, too, have indexed Exercises, 3,4,5,6,9,11,13,15.. and similar entries at the request of the publisher. I suggested that this might not be a useful entry, and put in subentries for the type of exercise. All in all, though, I enjoy indexing school texts (because I have school-age children). I do wonder, though, if teachers find these indexes useful! Marilyn Rowland freelance indexer/writer Falmouth, MA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:23:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@aol.com Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Barbara, Dave, Janet, Lys Ann, others-- I've had similar experiences when indexing drugs and drug manufacturers. To the point where I once was asked to reindex a medications reference book because a drug manufacturer sued the publisher due to faulty and incomplete indexing of them and their commercial drug products. [I had not done the original index, thank goodness!] My practice now is to index all drugs and drug manufacturers. (I work to differentiate between passing and substantive mentions.) While this may contribute to imbalanced indexing, in one view, it seems to be required legally. The trick, IMHO, is to be as thorough as possible, and differentiate between the passing and the substantive as much as possible. Dave, I think I would recommend continued working with the said publisher if only out of a sense of obligation to try to ensure quality--isn't there *some* way to meet their standards and ensure quality at the same time? perhaps by way of including both the entries they want AND the ones they think they don't want. I imagine a cover letter to that effect, indicating that all topics of substantive discussion are in the book, including those of sensitive topics. entries with passing mention would get just their page cites, for example. the publisher may well get more than they bargained for, but their concerns will have been addressed, with quality, as well. seems like they might appreciate your efforts to meet their specifications and that they would/should appreciate your efforts to maintain quality control. anyway, such are the challenges of indexing--good luck!!!!! ttfn, L. Pilar Wyman (Pilar) Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD email: PilarW@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:23:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: ASI chapter newsletters ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This query is directed to other ASI chapter officers, or officers of other groups that include indexers. I think replies by private e-mail would be in order (maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us) My question: Does your organization have a newsletter? By newsletter I mean any publication that does more than announce meetings. What information does it usually include? Do you time its mailing to announce the coming meeting, report on the previous one, or both? How do you solicit articles? How much time do you allot to its preparation? Thanks for any information you can give me. Maryann Corbett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:23:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Although of course the editor has no wish to manufacture citations out of >thin air, he does urge the most minute attention possible to these >critical subjects (a list of which he thoughtfully provides). He urges, >in effect, an index that is unbalanced in depth, requiring citation of >every mention of some subjects (e.g., Christianity) but not of other >subjects (e.g., Islam), in contradiction of good indexing practice. > Hm, although the publisher's motives are a little suspect, I think there is something to the "philosophy" that an index not reflect *precisely* how much space is given each subject. That is, if you're considering what sorts of things a reader is likely to look up, then very topical subjects should get somewhat more coverage, that is, disproportionate to the actual coverage in the text. If, for example, your audience is primarily Christians, then it makes some sense to give more coverage to Christianity than to Islam (assuming Islam wasn't actually an important subject in the book), simply because more readers are likely to be looking for it. I'm sure I've read this somewhere in the stuff that taught me how to index, but I can't reacall where. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:23:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Ethics in indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree that the example cited, about putting in the index passing references to ethnic groups and the like even though they are not discussed in depth, is a marketing rather than an ethical decision. It's a decision I have made on my own while indexing textbooks, because I know that is what the people in charge of adopting textbooks, and the teachers, will want to find. I've also included all such references, when possible, in sociology books, because the references are usually interesting enough to want to single out. Our cultural diversity is a fact, and emphasizing it in an index is no problem to me. Elinor Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org Mendocino, CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:23:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Pronunciations ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>This may be a simple question, but I'm new to the world of the net. Is >>there an on line dictionary, or one accessible from Internet? I'm doing >>a pronunciation guide for an index and need to find pronunciations for >>Hawaiian, Japanese and Chinese words. I'm using WP's Random House, but >>cannot find the very unusual. Thanks for ANY advice. Check out http://www.willamette.edu:80/~tjones/Language-Page.html -- the Human Languages web page. Elinor Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org Mendocino, CA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 14:58:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Old edition - Nelson's Pediatrics (fwd) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The following will be old news to those of you who also subscribe to MEDLIB-L; but I thought this group would be interested as well. A thread on MEDLIB-L started a couple of days ago as a result of a patron asking a hospital librarian about a perhaps apocraphyl (sp?) index entry in an old edition of _Nelson's Textbook of Pediatrics_, in which the indexer (reportedly the editor's daughter) used the entry, "Birds, for the". I subsequently checked the 4th - 10th editions (on our shelves) for the entry, didn't find it, and reported that back to the list - only to see a message shortly afterward that somebody had found it in the 7th ed., 1959. Then the following message arrived. I went back and rechecked our (University of Washington Health Sciences Library) 7th ed. again. And I still couldn't find that entry. So it appears that Saunders (the publisher) found the original entry in the first printing and deleted it in subsequent reprints (Oct. 1959 and Aug. 1960, according to the verso of the title page). Which means that the original printing of Nelson's 7th ed. is probably a collector's item. Would be interesting to know many more of our "urban indexing legends" actually are based on fact... Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:36:18 EST From: Irish, Elizabeth To: Multiple recipients of list MEDLIB-L Subject: Re: old edition - Nelson's Pediatrics Well, seeing as it was a rather slow day in reference yesterday, a miracle in itself, one of our reference librarians made the trek to the 4th floor to scour old editions of Nelsons. I know Betty Maute has already responded to Nancy, but I just wanted to let you know it's not folklore. Believe it or not, in the 7th edition, 1959 on page 1419 there is the entry "Birds, for the, 1-1413." Interestingly enough, the index starts on page 1415...& p.1414 is blank:-) His daughter really musn't have wanted to index... As they say, seeing is believing...:-) Elizabeth Irish Head of Public Services Schaffer Library of Health Sciences Albany Medical College 47 New Scotland Ave. Albany, NY 12208 e-mail: eirish@ccgateway.amc.edu Phone: (518) 262-4980 Fax: (518) 262-5820 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:02:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Annette Wengle Subject: automating manual inhouse library indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am a new subscriber to Index-L. Is this the right discussion group for me? I work in the Arts Department of a large public reference library with many manual inhouse indexes. We are investigating automation. I have come across a few automated library indexes available through the Internet--Arcpics at Carnegie Mellon; Song Index at Arizona State U. Can you direct me to others? What software is being used? Comments on relational vs. flat databases appreciated. Comments on indexing vs. enhanced cataloguing welcome. Do you know of any partnerships among libraries creating automated indexes? I'd appreciate references to recent articles. If you reply to me, I will summarize answers. Thanks Annette Wengle bk352@torfree.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:02:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWURF@delphi.com Subject: Indexing personal experiences included in scholarly text ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would appreciate any suggestions. Yesterday, I started indexing a scholarly sociology book on childbirth and culture for an author. The author includes some of her personal experiences of pregnancy, breastfeeding, childbirth, pregnancy, and sexual abuse by an obstetrician in the book. She also tells about her relationship with her son, from birth to age twenty. There is a large part of one chapter on this relationship. She also discusses her life as a young woman, her current life, and her relationships. She has very good reasons for including the personal experiences, and explains them. I am not quite sure how to index these personal experiences. I am at present using the term "personal experiences" as a subheading. First I used "author's personal experiences." I would appreciate any suggestions about how to handle the indexing of these personal experiences. Should I do broad indexing of these subjects, as I plan? I cannot see indexing her personal experiences in as much detail as the rest of the text. I am planning to index the personal experiences only as they relate to the main subjects discussed in the text. I'd appreciate suggestions of other possible ways other ways to handle this? Thanks for any ideas. Barbara Wurf BWURF@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:02:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Gear Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am only a novice indexer (no paid indexes done, two unpaid projects published) but this note causes me to write. In a book I bought recently I noticed that one of the entries was "Special Interest Groups" and underneath were entries for "environmental groups," "workers," --but none for polluters or management. I was struck by this (that is, by the notion that people concerned with the environment are special interests, which has had a negative connotation attached to it; or that people who work for a living are a "special interest" if they organize to promote their common economic interests) ... so I contacted the author to ask her who indexed her book. She replied that she did because it was that or nothing (which she didn't realize when she signed her contract). I asked her about the bias inherent in saying that environmentalists are "special interest groups"--especially when a majority of Americans self-classify themselves as environmentalists. I wonder if those entries pretty accurately reflected her world view: management is us, "they" are special interests promoting narrow agendas (environmentalism, workers rights). I guess the relevant question for the list is about the propriety of using a first level entry term (that does not appear in the text) like "special interest groups." I think it contributes to the strange situation we see in this country where those in the majority are somehow defined as "special interests" while those who represent a very small minority of people are never specifically labelled at all (and get the implied "we" most of the time). How does one provide useful first level entries to group detailed entries without altering the meaning of the items or putting a political slant on them. TIA for any advice you can give me. John Gear > >I wonder if anyone else has encountered this requirement to surrender >index consistency (and possibly quality) to marketing expediency, and how >(s)he deals with it. John Gear (catalyst@pacifier.com) The Bill of Rights--The Original Contract with America Accept no substitutes. Beware of imitations. Insist on the genuine articles. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:03:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: Question: 1995 Computer Science Hierarchical Thesaurus / Subject Index / Dictionary ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I am looking for a recommendation on a hierarchical thesaurus, subject index >classification, or dictionary on the subject area of computer science and > computing >terms? The purpose is for managing some documents in this topic area. > >I have looked up Books In Print as well as talked to some librarians but > apparently the >most recent editions out there are 1993 editions and older. I need to look up > CURRENT >WORDS in the computer/computing area and as you know this area is one of the > most >dynamic one in having words added to its vocabulary. > >Please respond personally to me and I shall work on compiling the answers to my >question and make the list of answers available to list serve subscribers when > the list is >ready. Thanks in advance. > Try Telecom Australia's Web engine page: http://www.telstra.com.au/index/cusi.html It contains a dictionary toward the end of the page. It has a popup menu: Dictionary of Computing American/English Dictionary Hacker's Jargon Roget's Thesaurus Acronym Dictionary Websters (USA) Websters (Norway) German-English English-German English Thesaurus Not bad!! Cheers Dwight Sydney, Australia ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker dwalker@zeta.org.au +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:03:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jack Shaw Subject: Re: Ethics in indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Welcome to the world of commercial expediency. IMHO fails to see the conflict for the indexer, however, unless there is also an unreasonable pressure to complete the indexing task in a too short time period. If the indexer give proper/equal weight to all occurrences of such things as ethnic references in the source, the client can do what they will with the results--that's what editors are there for. If the indexer retains a copy of the source as proof of a balanced job, what's the beef? Also, a relatively useless "keyword" index of all occurrences of a term in the text for "scorekeeping" purposes can still be weighted by bold (significant) or non-bold (insignificant) occurrences, and still meet the requirements of proper indexing technique. Scholarly text use such bold/non-bold distinction as a standard indexing device. J. Shaw jsh@software-ag.de P.S. -- Sorry, above should say, "Scholarly textS use..." Fat finger syndrome strikes again... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:03:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JCPO@aol.com Subject: Re: Pronunciations ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On May 15 Greenhouse wrote: >>This may be a simple question, but I'm new to the world of the net. >>Is there an on line dictionary, or one accessible from Internet? >>I'm doing a pronunciation guide for an index and need to find >>pronunciations for Hawaiian, Japanese and Chinese words. >>I'm using WP's Random House, but cannot find the very unusual. >>Thanks for ANY advice. I'm currently reading Anthony Burgess' "A Mouthful of Air" which contains a very interesting discussion of the IPA (Int'l Phonetic Alphabet) and compares English with Romance and Slavic languages, Latin and Greek, Malay, Chinese,Japanese, etc. It's not the dictionary-like work you asked for, but its insights should be very valuable. John Chapot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:09:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dave, Not to mince words here, but it seems that you're being asked to create a "politically correct" index. I don't envy you one bit, Dave, and I really respect you for wanting to adhere to the principle of honesty in your indexes. Even as an African-American, I would have never thought to look in an index just to see if there were any references to African-Americans in a book unless I was looking for a substantive discussion on the topic. And if I found that I wasted my time because some publisher thought it was appropriate to pander to me by forcing the indexer to include only trivial mentions of the topic, I'd be more than a bit annoyed. My use of the term "pander" is intentional. The publisher is assuming that all of us in the "hot button" groups would be thrilled to find a reference to us in the index, regardless of how irrelevant it is. I didn't know until now that I was supposed to appreciate this concern on their part to look out for what they perceive to be my interests as an African-American. (Wow! African-Americans are listed in the index so this book must be relevant to me! Do you take MasterCard or Visa?) ;-) As an indexer, I see I was naive to assume that all we had to do as indexers was to point readers to all substantive discussions in the text. Now it seems that we also have to consider agenda regarding "sensitive subjects" when deciding whether to include something in the index. Silly me. I thought I had escaped these issues of what marketing wants vs. what really should be included in the text when I left the field of technical writing. I guess there is no safe place for plain old honesty anywhere in a book now. Well, we now have to analyze everything for how hot a button it is vs. how relevant it is, thus redefining the concept of relevancy beyond all reason. Of course, this may all change with the political winds. Next year, maybe we'll have to make sure to include all references, no matter how fleeting, to the vertically challenged or whatever the "correct" term will be for short people. I don't know if this helps you any in resolving your terrible dilemma, but I hope it adds another perspective to the discussion. Whatever you decide to do, my hat is off to you for having the clarity of principle to be disturbed about this abominable trend. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:09:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Dartnall Subject: Re: Ethics in indexing In-Reply-To: <199505182038.AA25384@jculib.jcu.edu.au> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have very much enjoyed this debate and was discussing it at home. We came up with a possible solution. Perhaps the publisher would like to make a specific marketing point of 'feature indexes'. The main index might have an entry 'ethnic groups See Feature Index'. The feature index, in more detail for this specific topic, could be boxed on the same page or follow the main index. This would have the value of preserving the integrity of the original index,fulfilling the requirements of the publisher and might even give the publisher a marketing edge. A simpler way of maintaining your own position would be a 'top of index' note to the effect that topics of particular relevance to the current curriculum have been indexed in greater depth.This is a polite way of making your point and means that any problems with the index can't be held against you by potential employers reviewing your previous work. What do others think of these solutions? Jean Jean Dartnall Information Services Librarian James Cook University of North Queensland Townsville Queensland Jean.Dartnall@jcu.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:10:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Many publishers recognize the fact that good indexes make books more marketable. *Buzzwords* in industry or academic texts (and indexes) can make books more marketable. I've had clients who requested that the index point to every instance of certain *buzzwords*, no matter where they occur in the text (even if they appear to be a passing mention). And I've done as they asked, even though their guidelines did not agree with my own standards for a quality index. I don't view that as an ethical dilemma. IMHO, we should be flexible enough to understand our clients' needs and to comply with their requirements. That doesn't mean that we can't offer them the benefit of our experience and advice; however, if they choose not to take our advice, we should simply follow their guidelines and satisfy the customer. ************************************************************************* Lori Lathrop ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:11:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jeff Finlay, NYU" Organization: St. Peter's College, US Subject: Re: Indexing personal experiences included in scholarly text ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Yesterday, I started indexing a scholarly sociology book on childbirth and > culture for an author. The author includes some of her personal experiences of > pregnancy, breastfeeding, childbirth, pregnancy, and sexual abuse by an > obstetrician in the book. She also tells about her relationship with her son, > from birth to age twenty. There is a large part of one chapter on this > relationship. She also discusses her life as a young woman, her current life, > and her relationships. She has very good reasons for including the personal > experiences, and explains them. Plus I think the autobiographical is becoming more common among scholarly books now (a kind of way of saying, "just in case anyone thinks I know more than I claim, here's my own subjective experience"). I sense a blend of biographical indexing method with your usual monograph style will do the trick. In biography, I generally take everything I can relative to the person/subject; here I guess take everything relative to the issues subject, eg Smith, Mary breastfeeding by, pregnancies of, sexual abuse as experienced by, son's relationship with, Hope this helps, Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:11:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing personal experiences included in scholarly text ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My first reaction is to include the author's name as a main heading, then subentries with the appropriate topics, i.e. relationship with son, etc. As appropriate you might also include the author's experience as a subheading under the main topics being discussed, for example: Main head: mother-son-relationship Subhead: as experienced by [author's name] Hope this helps and that you get other good suggestions. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:11:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "C.JACOBS" Subject: Re: Ethics in Indexing In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 16 May 1995 09:12:45 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- It seems to me that there are two different issues here. One is the inclusion of "hot topics" and the other is the exclusion of information of parallel importance simply because the publisher does not perceive a value in highlighting that information (or perhaps may even want to downplay it). The first is not unethical, although the user may get fed up tracking down the passing mentions. If you make your position clear to the publisher -- that users do not appreciate wild goose chases -- and he still insists, then that is what is wanted and as long as they are willing to pay for the extra work...fine! If there is, in fact, indexable information present, the editor is justified in ensuring that the index responds to perceived needs of users. The second does perhaps involve ethical issues. If, for example, there are similar amounts of information available on Christianity and Islam, (not just passing references), but the editor asks you to ignore the references to Islam, then he is ensuring that that information cannot be accessed. In this case, I would feel an obligation to at least discuss the reasons why certain information was excluded, including whether this corresponded to the author's wishes. I feel that consistency is very important, and that while we can never make the entire contents of a book completely accessible, aiming for a consistency in levels of specificity helps to ensure that biases that may hurt users (hide information) are minimized. Yes, user needs are very important in creating an index, but we have to beware of projecting ourselves and our interests on to the book to the extent that it overshadows possible other interests and needs. Few publications are intended for only one type of person, or one user need. Even if there are more followers of Christianity than of Islam in North America, the user who wants information on Islam still has a valid information need. Perhaps the editor has not considered it in this light. My only experience with a similar difficulty was with a Time/Life book. T/L didn't like the job I did (which corresponded to the specs I had been given by the packager), and had the index redone. When I next saw it, the entries on China had been reduced by about 2/3 (none had been passing mentions), although the second indexer had been allowed an additional page. Since this was just after Tiannaman Square, I felt safe in drawing some conclusions about that! However, I continue to work happily for the packager -- this wasn't their decision! It is important that as indexers we be aware that we are always filtering information, in addition to making it available, and that we try to do the most good, and the least harm in the process. Christine Jacobs Montreal, Quebec incj@musicb.mcgill.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:12:38 ECT Reply-To: Turner James Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Turner James Subject: special interest groups In-Reply-To: <9505182129.AB28989@eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re John Gear's comments about special interest groups, although some like to slap this label on groups to imply that they are marginal or advocating some cause that somehow is not worthy of mainstream consideration, it's interesting to note that in other contexts the term is also neutral and respectable, as in American Society for Information Science, Special Interest group on Classification Research. James Turner ================================================================ = James Turner, professeur adjoint = = Ecole de bibliotheconomie et des sciences de l'information = = Universite de Montreal = = Case postale 6128 Telephone +1 514 343 2454 = = succursale Centre-ville Telecopie +1 514 343 5753 = = Montreal (Quebec) H3C 3J7 turner@ere.umontreal.ca = ================================================================ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:13:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr@aol.com Subject: Author's Contract and Index Quality ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Previous posting: Date: Thu, May 18, 1995 3:32 PM CST X-From: catalyst@pacifier.com (John Gear) > ... I contacted the author to ask her who indexed her book. She replied that she did because it was that or nothing (which she didn't realize when she signed her contract). > .... John, this situation seems to be the root of many problems with book indexes, including their omission in some cases and poor quality in others. Propagating the author's political point of view in an index is only one issue of poor quality. Users of the index are poorly served in too many cases as a result of this publishing industry practice. I hear this lament over and over again in the writing forums here on AOL: I didn't know I had to produce the index or else lose part of my income on the book! These abusive and misleading contracts need to be assigned to the dustbin. This is something I would like to see ASI actively working on through liaisons with publishing trade associations. Comments? Larry Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:13:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Ongoing MEDLIB-L thread ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This interesting thread is continuing on MEDLIB-L. Thought you all would be interested in this one as well, forwarded from MEDLIB. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > The 16th edition of WILLIAMS OBSTETRICS has,in its index, the notation > "Chauvinism, male,voluminous amounts,1-1102." This had us howling way > back in 1980 when the book came out!! > > Paul Julian > UMASS Medical Indexers are not the only people who have added a little humor to the corpus of medical bibliography. Catalogers (incorrectly stereotyped as humorless) have contributed their share. It is not unusual for the great medical school libraries to collect some classic fiction for leisure reading by their clients. I once worked at the library of a renowned medical school that held, among other literary classics, Arthur Miller's plan *Death of A Salesman*. A cataloger, struggling with the limitations of MeSH, assigned the subject heading: SUICIDE. ********************************************************* Millard Johnson PORTALS zendog@lib.pdx.edu I would rather risk failure than achieve it without risk. *********************************************************