========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:10:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Wordprocessor indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Just wanted to clarify my recent note to index-l. I'm going to be giving a couple of lectures on indexing (to the Florida Publishers Association and to the Indiana University School of Information Science). I know that people in both audiences will ask me if they can index using wordprocessing software. They'll probably be astounded to hear how much dedicated indexing software costs. I'd like to be able to tell them more about what wordprocessing software can and can't do as an indexing tool. I haven't used wordprocessing software for this purpose since 1985. I'm a Macrex user. But what do I tell people who are just starting out in indexing? And what about people who *think* they might want to be indexers and who just want to give indexing a try? I know they won't want to spend lots for Macrex or Cindex--or even purchase some of the less expensive indexing packages. Do any of you use WordPerfect, Word, XyWrite, or whatever to prepare your indexes? If so, I'd love to hear from you. Please reply to my e-mail address, if this seems to be a topic that's not interesting to most folks on index-l. I appreciate your help immensely! And so will my audiences! And a huge thank you to the people who've already written to me. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "We must view with profound respect the infinite capacity of the human mind to resist the introduction of useful knowledge."--Thomas Lounsbury ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:11:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Meeting announcements ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Could someone please cross-post the ASI chapter meeting announcements on the WELL? I know there is a way to do this, but I haven't figured it out yet. If someone would be so kind as to do so, I would appreciate it. Thanks. Barbara E. Cohen becohen@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:11:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Aviles Subject: Re: thesaurus software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Albert Cuesta, this is in response to your call for help on info about thesaurus software. I am currently using a thesaurus manager called MultiTes developed by MULTISYSTEMS software company (e-address: 74563.435@compuserve.com or 305-387-1915). Before finding out about this system I looked at other packages and amongst those I found MultiTes to be the only one that handles multiple hierarchies, multiple subject categories, and multiple languages. So far, its worked really well for us in handling our library of chemical entities. Good luck, Chris JA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:11:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rosemary Simpson Subject: Multi-tool indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Word is one of the utilities I use in creating indexes on my Macintosh: I first use Filemaker Pro to create a database of entries, locations, and notes. Then I export the entries as tab-separated text and produce a formatted index with a formatting utility I wrote myself. The output of this utility is RTF text, which I then read into Word for the final camera-ready production process. The See Also web I import into Eastgate Systems' Storyspace hypertext system to produce a stand-alone hypertext to accompany the index. Creating the index in a database such as Filemaker also gives me a major tool in dealing with embedded index delivery: I completely create and put an index through the review-revision cycle without having to touch the FrameMaker or Word files. Then the last step is sorting the index in page (or chapter-page) order and then exporting the text as two fields - locator field and text field. The text field contains the complete concatenated entry including the required indexing tag characters. This file then becomes my cut-and-paste file for dropping the entries into the FrameMaker or Word document. I also have a utility that formats the raw output so that the chapter-page locator is on a line above the entries for that location. Thus the embedded index is simply a final deliverable - the real work is done without the embedding handicap. One thing that makes embedding much more accurate and much much easier is my practice of "chunking" - or dividing each page into small, logical numbered units (usually a paragraph or figure or list item). The chunk numbers on each page are numbered from one. This gives me a much finer granularity since the database and embedding output both contain the chunk number as part of the locator. Hope this helps those who are afflicted with embedded index deliverables. Michelle Rosemary Simpson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:07:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fran Freiman Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Someone had written that he or she used regular wordprocessing software >to produce indexes. Does anyone out there have that information? Does >anyone out there use WordPerfect to create indexes? > >Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) > > I used Word for Windows to create the index of the book Failed Technology (UXL, an imprint of Gale Research), 1994. Word-processing indexes embed the index citation so you don't have to cite locators in the index entry as you are generating it. This is an advantage if the text is not firmly paginated, and technical documentation--which is always on a very tight schedule--relies on this kind indexing. However, it's far from perfect. You can't see what the index looks like as you go, and using consistent citations isn't possible without "building the index" over and over to weed out mistakes. You can easily end up with multiple entries for the same darn item, each spelled slightly different than the last. I am an editor for reference and technical clients and have never used any standalone indexing software. I've seen Cindex demonstrated and like lots of its features, but it wouldn't work unless you had page proofs. That's a luxury with almost all of the projects I work on. I'm waiting for some improvements (viz. embedding) before I spring for standalone. Fran Freiman -- PO `!1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:07:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a)" Subject: INDEX-L: error report from GODZILLA.LIB.PDX.EDU Date: 15 Mar 95 11:26:27 PST Subject: Re: Wordprocessor indexing > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Just wanted to clarify my recent note to index-l. I'm going to be giving > a couple of lectures on indexing (to the Florida Publishers Association > and to the Indiana University School of Information Science). I know that > people in both audiences will ask me if they can index using > wordprocessing software. They'll probably be astounded to hear how much > dedicated indexing software costs. I'd like to be able to tell them more > about what wordprocessing software can and can't do as an indexing tool. > > I haven't used wordprocessing software for this purpose since 1985. I'm a > Macrex user. But what do I tell people who are just starting out in > indexing? And what about people who *think* they might want to be > indexers and who just want to give indexing a try? I know they won't want > to spend lots for Macrex or Cindex--or even purchase some of the less > expensive indexing packages. > > Do any of you use WordPerfect, Word, XyWrite, or whatever to prepare your > indexes? If so, I'd love to hear from you. Please reply to my e-mail > address, if this seems to be a topic that's not interesting to most folks > on index-l. > > I appreciate your help immensely! And so will my audiences! And a huge > thank you to the people who've already written to me. Hazel > > Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) > "We must view with profound respect the infinite capacity of the human > mind to resist the introduction of useful knowledge."--Thomas Lounsbury The indexing software program: IndexAid 2.0 is very low-cost, and very simple to use. It's ideal for those just setting out to learn how to index. Its only limitation is that it does not easily index newspapers or journals, just back-of-the-book stuff. A bargain! Santa Barbara Software Products, 1400 Dover Rd., Santa Barbara, CA 93103. (805) 963-4886 phone/fax. But, you must emphasis to any serious indexer that one of the two major programs (Cindex and Macrex) has to be an essential purchase for any professional indexer. +++++++++++ William Abrams, Chief Serials Cataloger, Portland State Univ. Library, P.O. Box 1151, Portland, OR 97207 +++ (503) 725-4574 ++++ FAX: 503 725 5799 ++++ abrams@godzilla.lib.pdx.edu +++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:08:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rosemary Simpson Subject: Further hacks you can use with a Filemaker database - Word combination: ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 1) Use Filemaker sub-summary parts to produce rough working drafts. 2) Use Filemaker to produce concatenated Word-embed format entries, put them into an empty file, and then run the Word index. The index will be formatted according the index styles you set up and the page numbers with be 1. Then, edit the Word index file to change the page numbers from one to the correct number. Voila! A formatted index using just Word and Filemaker. 3) If all you really have is Word, then create your entries in the following way: (1) Put each entry on a separate line with a colon (:) separating the entries, a unique character between the entry and the page number, and a semi-colon (;) at the end of the line. (2) To insert .i. - the Word index entry tag - at the beginning of the line, change ^p (the line break character) to ^p.i. . (3) Sort the file. (4) Make all the text be hidden text. (5) Run the index. (6) Delete all the terminating 1s by doing a global change of 1^p to ^p. (7) Change the unique character that separates the entry from the page number to be what you want. (8) Note that because the page is part of the text, entries with multiple page references will create individual entries, so that you will have to hand combine them. That shouldn't be much of a problem, however, if you are indexing properly since most entries should be unique. (9) To incorporate See and See Alsos with this technique, first prefix them with aaa (aaaSee and aaaSee Also) to force them to sort correctly and then globally get rid of the aaa. Michelle Rosemary Simpson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:08:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: Wordprocessor indexing In-Reply-To: <199503152053.PAA08673@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hazel, I did use WordPerfect to do a skeleton index of our indexing section's procedures manual, mainly just to see how it worked. Call me and I'll talk to you about it or show it to you. It ain't perfect. It ain't even great. But it is something. Sue ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:10:10 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: new indexer needs HELP In-Reply-To: <199503131951.AA07710@metronet.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Pam Wren wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > As a favor to my church I am indexing the minister's book. I > indexed it for my indexing class but now the book has been > revised (new pagination) so I'm starting over. > Would appreciate comments regarding: > what to do with Biblical characters (Ruth, David), separate entries or > subheaded under Biblical characters; > same for scriptures, (Genesis..), put under Bible, Bible scriptures or > a separate heading for each Bible chapter? > > I haven't read that much religious material and so would appreciate > any advice. This book is not scholarly or lengthy. > > Thanks again! > pam > g_wren@venus.twu.edu I've done several volumes of academic religious studies. I'd strongly recommend you go to the library and browse through the 200s -- esp indexes in publications by Wesleyan Press, etc. Most commonly, you do a completely separate index for scriptural references (it's easy to circle them in red or something on your first pass and then do them all at one time in a rapid second pass). Whether you treat Biblical persona just like everyone else depends on the focus of the book.... Michael K. Smith mksmith@metronet.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:10:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Renald Buteau Subject: Re: THESAURUS CONSTRUCTION SOFTWARE In-Reply-To: <199503132241.RAA10233@biko.llc.org> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > On January 27, Andrea Pfeffer wrote: > >I am interested in obtaining information about Thesaurus Construction > >Software. I work on a biomedical thesaurus which is currently on a > >mainframe, and want to convert it to a PC-based system. If anyone has > >information about possible software, please respond to this e-mail. > > Andrea-- > > I've just read your old above posting. I have a reference to the following > company: > > Liu-Palmer > 111 Gateway Boulevard, suite 195 > Los Angeles, CA 90064-2829 > Tel: +1(310)390-4884 > Fax: +1(310)390-9270 > > Supposedly they make something called Thesaurus Construction System. I > tried to contact them by fax, but had no success. Please let me know if you > are more successful. I would also appreciate if you shared with us any > findings among the responses to your above posting. > > Regards. > > --Albert Cuesta [acuesta@bix.com] > Thesaurus Serveis Documentals, Barcelona > The new adress is: Liu-Palmer 8205 Santa Monica Blvd., Suite 1-295 Los Angeles, CA 90046-5912 Phone: 213-654-7569 Fax: 213-650-6446 Renald Buteau (Buteaur@llc.org) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:10:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Australian Society of Indexers Web pages - AusSI and Marysville additions ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have added more pages to the International Conference pages to tell you about the Australian Society of Indexers and more about the Marysville conference site. This is a prototype for a permanent site. Have a look at it at: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/auscon2.htm - the conference - there is a direct link from this to the AusSI pages http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/aussi.htm - AusSI pages - there is a link to more about Marysville via the conference or http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/marysvl2.htm More will follow about the establishing of the AusSI Web home page. I'll keep you informed. Are there members of the American Society of Indexers, the Society of Indexers (UK) and the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada who read this? Please tell me your Web/gopher/email details and I will mount them on our affiliates page (under AusSI above). Thanks. Dwight Walker AusSI NSW committee Dwight Walker dwalker@zeta.org.au +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:11:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) wrote >I can't remember if I saw this on index-l or in an issue of _Key Words_. >Someone had written that he or she used regular wordprocessing software >to produce indexes. Does anyone out there have that information? Does >anyone out there use WordPerfect to create indexes? I'd be interested in >hearing from you. If you feel that this'd take up too much space on >index-l, please feel free to write to me at my e-mail address. We did this for a while with Word for Windows (Version 1.0 back then): the method was to type in each index entry and insert a hard page break every time we got to a new page in the text. I wrote a couple of macros to go through the completed text and turn each line into an index entry, and then we used the indexing module in Word to produce the alphabetical index. We had problems with keeping the pagination in the WP document matching the galley proofs, and also with 'large' documents (e.g. 300+ pages) - although they didn't actually contain much text, all those page breaks seemed to slow Word down considerably. Glenda probably remembers those heady days better than I do... Jonathan I have used word processing software for indexing in three different ways. I have indexed one document that was available in electronic format as a word processed document. Using MS-Word you can add a symbol (.i I think) before and after any string of text in the document that you want to be indexed with the current page number. You can also type in hidden text which you do not want printed with the document, but which you wish to be indexed. I had problems with this including mixup of italic text (for tables) with normal text giving a range of numbers with the starting number in italics and the finishing number in plain text. The other problem was that Word automatically repaginated every time it created an index, but the pagination ended up different to what it had been just before you tried to index it. I can't remember if this problem was solved (the index was done as an exercise, not as a job). The second way I used a word processor was just as a way of typing in the index I was creating. This was tedious, and also meant it was not possible to check the index in page number order. The third way I have used a word processor is as Jon mentioned above. It was a while ago, and I don't remember it clearly, but I think it worked pretty well, and meant that you could consult the index in page number order at any time. We also had a stint using a home-made package based on dBase III. It had its ups and downs, and caused some traumatic moments. We now use Macrex and are delighted with the change. Regards, Glenda Browne. Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW (047) 398-199 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 12:12:01 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Query ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I am indexing a book (literary criticism) which contains a large number of >quotations from other critical works, all numbered and listed in >biographical notes at the end of each chapter. > >I have a dilemma. In some instances the quote is given in the text but not >the author (this would be given in the notes), and in other instances the >author *is* mentioned in the text. > >Should both authors be indexed, or just the one that is named in the text, >or, indeed, neither? > >Thanks > >Brendan > By omitting the cited author's name from the page containing the quote the writer (compiler?) of the book seems to me to be suggesting that the name is not important at that point - presumably it is the matter contained in the quote that is of interest. The distinction would be between "As Shakespeare said...*blah blah blah*", where what he said is important, and "*Shakespeare*, however, said ... blah blah blah", where the salient fact is that it was Shakespeare who said it. (This is a little difficult without italics, but I hope you see what I mean). So my response would be to follow the practice of the book and omit the name of the cited author where that does not appear on the page. Jonathan. Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW (047) 398-199 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 16:57:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: FOR NANCY KAISER In-Reply-To: <9503161737.AA01317@core.symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Sorry to bother folks on index-l, but. . . . I've been trying to reply to Nancy Kaiser at her e-mail address: snak@sunyit.edu My replies have bounced back. Have I got the correct e-mail address? Many thanks! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "We must view with profound respect the infinite capacity of the human mind to resist the introduction of useful knowledge."--Thomas Lounsbury ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:40:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Re: Australian Society of Ind... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I think it's time that the American Society of Indexers gets a web page and a web server together. How can we go about getting one online, and what content should it have? Sample contracts? The list of indexers? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:41:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Ellen Curtin Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software In-Reply-To: <9503161953.AA22913@mail-in.worldlink.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Glenda Browne wrote: >The second way I used a word processor was just as a way of typing in the >index I was creating. This was tedious, and also meant it was not possible >to check the index in page number order. . . . >We now use Macrex and are delighted with the change. Gosh, I feel like a fogette (still, I hope, too young to be a fogey). Or at least like an eccentric. I've been a professional indexer since 1982, and except for my first job (done with index cards, and leading to the cry "never again!") I have always used word processing software in the manner described above. Now I am looking at demo versions of Macrex and Cindex, and I can't figure out how you guys use them. My word processor technique (currently incarnated in Word 5.0) involves: entering terms (concepts and names) as I go through the page proofs, and adding the numbers for additional citations as appropriate. I use different colored highlighters to mark the terms I am entering in the index, or to scrawl the synomyns under which the ideas are entered. I start from a "blank index," which contains all the letters of the alphabet in order, properly spaced. I have written a raft of macros to do things like split the screen (so I can see two or more different parts of the index at once) and copy the last page number I entered (so I can put the same citation with a number of different topics). I have also written macros to go from indented subheadings (which are easier for me to use) to the run-in formats of different publishers. Among the advantages I have found with this souped-up word processor is that I can get text files from the publisher and force page breaks into them, and then use them to (for instance) search for where I saw something mentioned before that I decided not to index at the time. I don't use the built-in indexing functions; I just use the text files to make "flipping through the book" easier. Now as I wrestle with Macrex and Cindex I find that several things I've gotten really used to are not available. And these programs include some features, such as "checking the index in page order", for which I can see no use. Let me try to be concrete (if long-winded). I've dragged out an old, marked page proof from the bottom of the scrap-paper box to use as an example. On page 115 of a book on "Plato's Dialectical Ethics," I entered references to: pleasure, different kinds of; speech; confusion; logos; problem of the one and the many; Zeno's Parmenides; and several subheadings under the general topic of the chapter, which is Plato's _Philebus_. At the time, in addition to looking at the proofs, I would have wanted my computer screen to display all the subheadings for _Philebus_ and pleasure (so I could see where different parts of the continuing discussion should be indexed), as well as letting me move about to enter ", 115" under the topics of speech, the logos, Zeno, etc. -- none of which were unique entries, i.e. having only one page reference. I'm going to quit for now, and hope one or more will tell me something about your blow-by-blow mechanics of indexing with Cindex or Macrex, so I can start to decided which I want to get, or whether I just want to develop an even more finely-tuned set of macros for Word. >enormous sigh< Yours gratefully, Mary Ellen Curtin internet: postal: 9 Titus Mill Rd., Pennington, NJ 08534, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:41:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steve Sunter Subject: WWW Addresses ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- There was a question earlier today about locations for information about affiliated Indexing Societies. Dwight Walker wrote: "Are there members of the American Society of Indexers, the Society of Indexers (UK) and the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada who read this? Please tell me your Web/gopher/email details and I will mount them on our affiliates page (under AusSI ... http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/aussi.htm)." [TEST SITE] Most available information related to Indexing Societies is currently loaded only on the Index-L gopher at Georgia Southern University (co-habitant with this discussion list). Point your gopher at gopher.gasou.edu. However, Gophers can be stubborn animals prone to lead you through numerous "blind see references". Endless menus dull the appetite. If your Internet access supports WWW, navigation is much easier - even for Gopher sites. Thus, you can access the Index-L gopher site via the URL address: gopher://informer.cc.GaSoU.EDU/11/Georgia%20Southern%20University/Henderson% 20Library/assistance/Index-L Similarly, the most recent abstracts of "The Indexer" can be browsed via the BUBL gopher in the UK at this URL address: gopher://ukoln.bath.ac.uk:7070/11/BUBL_Main_Menu/E/E2/E2EI04 While these addresses are a bit of a mouthful, adding them to your WWW hotlist makes life much easier. Such addresses will be linked DIRECTLY (addresses camouflaged) when the new WWW server is set up soon by Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI). All international cooperation is most welcome. Regards... Steve ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++ ++ Steve Sunter Phone: +61 3 418 7253 + CSIRO Information Services Fax: +61 3 419 0459 + PO Box 89 e-mail: sun013@cis.csiro.au ++ East Melbourne, VIC 3002 Australia +++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:41:54 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jack Shaw Subject: Have you ever wished for your own programmer? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dumb question, I know. Particularly if you co-habitate with one already or whatever... . But I ask this question because Fran Freiman's note finally rang a bell regarding how some of us index, and how some of us don't. To wit: a whole bunch of us index based on completed page proofs--that is, knowing on which page something is going to fall. But a bunch of us ("word processing indexers?") do our indexing in "scroll" mode, long before pagination has been set. So now I have the impression that Cindex/Macrex indexing is done in "page proof" mode; that is, when pagination has been fixed and page numbering accomplished--right? Bear with me, here, because I've never experienced either Cindex or Macrex. Thanks to Fran Freiman's message, I now understand that there are others out there who, like me, live in the other world of indexing--where we have the luxury(?) to do our indexing right from the beginning of document/book creation. This, I imagine, is what most Word/Wordperfect/Framemaker/Pagemaker users not only do, but take for granted. For the Cindex/Macrex world, this might seem wierd or even unthinkable--don't know, but maybe you C/M types would have difficulty envisioning this "word processing indexing" mode. But a bunch of us live in this world (I'm a disgruntled Interleaf user, myself, and belong to that world...). So why the original question about "...own programmer"? As one of the aforementioned world of word processing editors/writers/indexers, I have groused constantly over the poor indexing concepts that most word processers--including my overpriced Interleaf (Unix-based)-- are using, and have wished that I could write up a laundry list of "how this #$%&^@ indexing mechanism should REALLY work!" features. Somehow, I have the feeling that the two camps--C/M and WP-- of indexers just might wish for the same facilities. And so my question is, if you had the ability to "roll your own" indexing program, what kinds of things would you want it to do? I will attempt to keep a tally if you want to vent a spleen or three and say what you like/don't about your present modus indexus. I've always marvelled at the fact that, with all the attention given to word processing/DTP over the years since the advent of PC-based publishing, one of the tasks that computerization should have made most palatable is exactly that which has seen the least innovation--indexing. Maybe if we all get together and "design" our "wannabe" indexer, we just might make the task more fun/productive/professional for both camps of indexers. I'll start by telling y'all what's bad about Interleaf--and good--if you like... But not in this already overtaxing message... Jack Shaw jsh@software-ag.de Darmstadt, Germany ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:20:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julius Ariail Subject: Address change for Index-L gopher archive ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The address for the gopher server at Georgia Southern University containing the Index-L listserv archives has changed. The new machine address is eagle1.cc.gasou.edu, and all the gopher files have been moved from the old machine (informer.cc.gasou.edu) to this new machine. For a generic address that will always work, point your gopher client toward gopher.gasou.edu. To confuse things further, the old machine at the informer.cc.gasou.edu address is still running the old gopher program, but this will soon change as that machine is recycled for other purposes. If anyone is pointing directly to informer.cc.gasou.edu now, change to the new address as soon as you can. The directory structure to locate the files is as follows: Georgia Southern University/ Henderson Library/ Other Organizations/ Index-L The files here run from the start of the listserv in 1992 to the end of February, 1995, separated into weekly message groups. In general, the past month is added whenever the current month begins. There is a WAIS searching program attached to these files that makes it somewhat easier to locate a specific message or a group of messages on a certain topic. Each year group can be searched separately, or the whole cluster of four years can be searched at the same time. The conversion from the old machine to the new machine was not painless, and I would appreciate notification if anyone spots something amiss. The new machine does run MUCH faster than the old one, if that's any consolation. Julius - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Julius Ariail, University Librarian solibja@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu Box 8074 Georgia Southern University Voice (912) 681-5115 Statesboro, GA 30460 USA Fax (912) 681-5034 "We have no large libraries or small libraries now. There are only larger, or smaller, library networks. Tell me about your network." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:25:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Humphreys Subject: FAQS I've been lurking for nearly a year now and find myself irritated by how many questions appear over and over again. Does Index-l have a frequently asked questions file? If so, could it be offered each time the listserve sends out mail? Or does noone else mind the repetition? I have to say my favorite discussion was the one on hung printers--I'd love to see more of this kind of discussion. Well, my question is a bit more ordinary, but...I'm indexing a lot of sources with photos of a musician. I'd like ideas on how to index photographs of a person. Or sources, if you know of any? Best wishes to all of you. Nancy Humphreys [Moderators note: Yes indeed, there is a FAQ. I post it about every-other month. It can also be found on the gopher (see previous message.)] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:30:22 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shore Editorial Services Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Sounds to me like you've re-created on your own some of the things that indexing software does. But I'd rather buy software than make my own program, so for me CINDEX was the obvious choice. Besides, I can hand a CINDEX program disk and manual to my assistant and she can teach herself how to use the program. If I had tailored my own program, I'd have to write my own manual to teach anyone else how to use it. So it sounds like what you've done works well for you, but is not easily transferable. Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services, Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:30:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shore Editorial Services Subject: Re: Have you ever wished for your own programmer? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At one time I had "my own programmer," and used custom-designed indexing software. Believe me, CINDEX is better. Why? Because it's been revised and improved with each version, and is masterminded by people who understand indexing. Also, what you describe as indexing in "word- processing mode" is, I think, closer to a "computer-generated index," while those of us indexing with page proofs are doing "computer-assisted indexing." There is a major difference between the two, and maybe that should be a focus of discussion. Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services, Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:32:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Nontypeset manuscripts, indexing of In-Reply-To: <9503172056.AA28490@core.symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I read the message about working from computer text. I've always worked from page proofs, in which the page numbers are in their final form--or close to final form. I use Macrex. You *can* use Macrex if you don't have final page numbers, however. A CHEKPAGE program of Macrex can be used to assign "dummy" page numbers before typeset copy is available. There are several other ways to handle nontypeset manuscripts, as well. Since none of my clients have ever asked for this kind of indexing, I've never done it. Perhaps other Macrex users *do* use this program, though. You can also contact Macrex directly by sending e-mail to Macrex@aol.com Hope this helps! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "We must view with profound respect the infinite capacity of the human mind to resist the introduction of useful knowledge."--Thomas Lounsbury ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:32:44 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Wordprocessor indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, Hazel. I've been using MS Word to write indexes for about three years. I really have nothing to compare it to, never having used dedicated software (which isn't available yet for the Mac) or index cards, but it gets the job done. I've had to invent timesaving techniques as I go along. Some of this is hard to depict in e-mail, but let me try. If my client wants an index in indented style, I have to figure out how I can create subentries and still use the software's sorting feature on the main entries (i.e., prevent the sorting from sending the subentries all over). So I insert symbols that I can automatically convert to tabs later on, to create the subentries. Such an entry would be typed in like this: connection to campus network, 5, 7-17@and AUDIX stutter dial tone, 12@and Call Waiting, 11-12@Ethernet, 14@via laptop computer, 17@phone numbers for, 11-12@testing of, 42-43 Because this is all one paragraph, MS Word will keep everything together and sort the whole par. under the C's. When I've got everything entered that way, then I do a global change, replacing the "@" with a hard return and a tab. Voila, subentries! connection to campus network, 5, 7-17 and AUDIX stutter dial tone, 12 and Call Waiting, 11-12@Ethernet, 14 via laptop computer, 17 phone numbers for, 11-12 testing of, 42-43 I sort one chapter's entries at a time, because I like to make a printout that I can look at as I index the next chapter. If "connection to campus network" figures big in the next chapter, I move the whole entry (and any others I'm going to need to add to frequently) to the end of the document. That way, I do less scrolling around, looking for entries. After that chapter is done, I simply do another sort command, and "connection to campus network" gets put back where it belongs. My message to people just starting out would be to go ahead and use wordprocessing software to type in entries; see if you even like indexing before you drop a bundle on dedicated software. I think professional indexers working from page proofs do well to use Cindex or Macrex (unless, like me, they're waiting for Cindex for the Mac), but one can still do indexing with, e.g., MS Word--it's just a bit clunkier, that's all. I think the thing we want to keep stressing is that the essence of indexing is what goes on inside the indexer's head, not what goes on inside the indexer's computer. Hope that helps. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:33:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Have you ever wished for your own programmer? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message from Jack Shaw---------------------------- >Somehow, I have the feeling that the two camps--C/M and WP-- >of indexers just might wish for the same facilities. And so my >question is, if you had the ability to "roll your own" indexing >program, what kinds of things would you want it to do? I will >attempt to keep a tally if you want to vent a spleen or three >and say what you like/don't about your present modus indexus. >I've always marvelled at the fact that, with all the attention >given to word processing/DTP over the years since the advent >of PC-based publishing, one of the tasks that computerization >should have made most palatable is exactly that which has seen >the least innovation--indexing. > I recently set out to write a specialised program (in Visual Basic) for name indexing only. The idea was that in, say, a typical 900-page book requiring an author index, the same names will appear many times over. Why should I have to type the full surname, comma and initials in each time, when all that varies is the page number? So for each new entry my program intercepts the keys that I press and scrolls through an alphabetical list until it comes to the first name that matches those keys. If this is the right name I press Enter to insert it. If not, and the name is on the list, then I can either go on typing characters until I get to the name, or reach for the mouse and double-click on the name in the list to enter it. I also have a field that keeps track of the current page number, which I can increment by pressing the Up arrow key. Thus I don't have to type this every time either: I just press the Right arrow to insert it after the name. In theory the same program should work for single-level subject headings as well. So why isn't the world beating a path to my door? Well, the program slows down a lot with more than about 300 names, and sometimes by the time I find a name in the list it would have been faster to type it in fully. I want to try and rewrite it in Access, but in the meantime if anyone wants to play around with it let me know: if the demand is there I can even make it available for ftp. Jonathan Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW (047) 398-199 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:33:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HairyLarry@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, I am a CINDEX user. Part of the issue you address is a matter of current limitations of CINDEX which will be removed when the program operates in a windowed environment like WINDOWS or Macintosh. The views you desire are available, but one at a time, which requires a different work process from the one you have developed. You may wish to contact Indexing Research (email: IRCINDEX @aol.com) for info about the prototypes they are demonstrating under WINDOWS. I cannot comment on Macrex since I do not use it, 'tho I believe it has the same limitation under DOS. Regards, Larry Harrison Hairylarry@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:35:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ned Bedinger Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software In-Reply-To: <199503172101.AA06223@mail.eskimo.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Mary Ellen Curtin wrote: Mary Ellen Curtin uses her software pretty much the way I do. I have given Word a tagged-indexing feature that will, on command, lift evey embedded index item out of the text and place them in a table. I can sort and compare and generally massage the index, and then put it back as embedded fields in the text. It is all button driven, and never leaves Word. Pretty cool, huh? I also cobbled up an automated full-text indexing package for Windows, so whenever I hit a word or concept that I want to totally index, I just use the full-text index to check out every instance of the word in multiple documents. W-a-y cool. I'm looking for testers, if anyone wants to take the time to learn my system. Ned Bedinger qwa@eskimo.com > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Glenda Browne wrote: > > >The second way I used a word processor was just as a way of typing in the > >index I was creating. This was tedious, and also meant it was not possible > >We now use Macrex and are delighted with the change. > > Gosh, I feel like a fogette (still, I hope, too young to be a fogey). > Or at least like an eccentric. > I have written a raft of macros to do things like split the screen > Among the advantages I have found with this souped-up word processor > is that I can get text files from the publisher and force page breaks > into them, and then use them to (for instance) search for where I saw > something mentioned before that I decided not to index at the time. I > don't use the built-in indexing functions; I just use the text files to > make "flipping through the book" easier. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:36:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JCPO@aol.com Subject: Thesaurus Maker's Glossary ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear friends, You may remember my description a few months ago of "Boswell's Companion", my Macintosh HyperCard program for making authority lists, thesauri, glossaries, etc. At that time I told you of the freeware "BMUG Glossary of Macintosh Terms", a Boswell Index stack, available from info-mac sites. Now I'd like to let you know that I've uploaded another Boswell Index stack, the Thesaurus Maker's Glossary, to info-mac. This glossary is taken from Townley and Gee's book "Thesaurus Making-Grow Your Own Word Stock", and is used by permission. Here's an excerpt from the authors' preface: "A compact glossary of standard linguistic terms (largely excluding figures of speech) with indicative examples, is offered to convey a range of problems to be met in compiling any reasonably structured thesaurus. When meeting a terminological problem that you cannot express to yourself, browse through these definitions and you may gain some idea of what it is that you are up against." The Thesaurus Maker's Glossary may be gotten by anonymous ftp at sumex-aim.stanford.edu/pub/info-mac/recent; the file name is thesaurus-makers-glossary-hc.hqx. If you use an info-mac mirror, so much the better, since Stanford's machines are pretty busy. America Online has just added an info-mac mirror. The glossary is free and may be copied as long as it is not altered. An information document describing Boswell's Companion is included in the file. John Chapot "Lexicographer - a harmless drudge." -- Samuel Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:36:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: American Society for Information Science Subject: ASIS Mid Year, Electronic Publishing, 5/24-26 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- * * * CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * ELECTRONIC PUBLISHING: APPLICATIONS AND IMPLICATIONS 1995 ASIS Mid-Year Conference Minneapolis, Minnesota May 22-26, 1995 [Session outline follows. For complete program and registration information, contact ASIS@CNI.ORG or http://ranga.berkeley.edu/ASIS/asis95.cnf.html.] The 1995 ASIS Mid-Year Conference will focus on the most critical development in today's information industry - electronic publishing. The conference has been designed to provide professional development (pre-conference workshops), intellectual stimulation (technical program and exhibits), and pure fun. Highlights Include: - Keynote by Vance K. Opperman, Member, U.S. Advisory Council on the National Information Infrastructure and President of West Publishing, discussing the future of electronic publishing within the framework of the NII and networks, including security, privacy, and the roles of the public and private sectors. - Discussion with Bruce Lehman (Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks) of the NII Task Force's Working Group on Intellectual Property's "Green Paper" on intellectual property and copyright. Followed by a debate by representatives of the international, publishing and legal communities. - Presentation of diverse pricing/licensing models for electronic information by Karen Hunter, Elsevier Science Publishers, each of which will be critiqued by representatives of the public, academic, and corporate library sectors. - Presentation of state-of-the-art publishing projects such as Johns Hopkins' Project Muse and The Institute for Scientific Information's Electronic Library Pilot Project and how they are handling security, data validation and delivery. PRE-CONFERENCE SESSIONS MONDAY, MAY 22 * Copyright * HTML Hands-On Workshop TUESDAY, MAY 23 * Copyright * Implementing Interactive Multimedia and Hypermedia * Document Imaging System Planning & Design * Information Technology Decisions Facing Library Managers * SGML * Image Databases TECHNICAL PROGRAM WEDNESDAY, MAY 24, 1995 - Electronic Publishing: Changes, Challenges, Realities and Opportunities Vance Opperman, Member, U.S. Advisory Council on the NII; President, West Publishing - The Making of Electronic Documents - Perspectives from Publishers - Standards for Electronic Documents - Enterprise Publishing: Multiple Electronic Publishing and/or Hard Copy Formats - Standards for Electronic Access to Geographic and Spatial Information - SGML for Interchanging Cultural Heritage Information - Chinese Publications on the Internet: Technical Approaches - Electronic Library: Issues related to Data Integrity and Security - Quality Management of Information Products - Overcoming Resistance to E- Journals: Concerns and Recommendations from Librarians, Publishers, and Researchers - Periodical Acquisition in Libraries: Concerns and Solutions - Electronic Journals and the Researcher: Perceptions and Realities - Publishers' Attitudes and Experiences with Electronic Journals THURSDAY, MAY 25, 1995 - Electronic Publishing: Access to Information - Electronic Invisible Colleges: A Study of Three Scientific Disciplines - Access to Electronic Information: Conceptual Challenges - Access to Electronic Information: A Technical Feasibility Study - Access to Electronic Information: A Comparative Evaluation - Applications and Implications of Electronic Publishing for Archives - Distribution of Electronic Information - Document Distribution Models - Case Studies in Electronic Document Delivery CONTRIBUTED PAPERS - Future Delivery Methods of Newspaper and the Potential Impact on Society - Book Reviews and Scholarly E-Publishing - E-Publishing in a University: Centralization vs. Decentralization - Teaching With E-Documents - What, If Anything, Is Cataloging in an E-World? - E-Journals and Copyright: An Empirical Study of Current Practices - Copyright on Internet-What's An Author To Do? FRIDAY, MAY 26, 1995 Copyright and Intellectual - Property Rights In An Electronic Publishing Environment - Bruce Lehman, Commissioner of Patents and Trademark. The NII "Green Paper" on Copyright and Intellectual Property - Copyright in an Electronic Environment: Current Status and Future Perspective CONFERENCE LOCATION: Minneapolis/St. Paul Airport Hilton 3800 East 80th Street Minneapolis, MN 55425 (612)854-2100 OR 1-800-637-7453 Complete program information available from ASIS, 8720 Georgia Avenue, Suite 501, Silver Spring, MD 20910 (301) 495-0900 Fax: (301) 495-0810 Internet: asis@cni.org -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:23:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shore Editorial Services Subject: Re: FAQS ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Nancy Humphreys asks for help regarding "indexing a lot of sources with photos of a musician." Nancy, what exactly does this mean? If you mean a book that has photos of people, then you can just include the people's names in the index, with an italicized page number and a headnote that says that italicized page numbers refer to photographs. If this doesn't help, then I have misunderstood your question. Sorry. Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:25:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Australian Society of Ind... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I think it's time that the American Society of Indexers gets a web page and a >web server together. How can we go about getting one online, and what content >should it have? Sample contracts? The list of indexers? > > Yes! ASI should develop a Web page with links to the Australian SI page (which I visited, BTW). Your suggestions for content are a good start. Other possibilities include ASI's list of publications, lists of resources such as courses, and perhaps the text of ASIs brochures for publishers, etc. Those of us who are online already and interested in this project could form a cyber-committee to develop the idea further and propose it to the ASI board. (We could exchange e-mail among ourselves to avoid bogging down the list with the discussion.) I recently indexed an excellent book on the Web, BTW, that can serve as a resource for the mechanics of setting up Web pages, HTML tagging, etc. I volunteer to work on this committee. Any others out there equally enthused about this? Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:25:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: FAQS ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I've been lurking for nearly a year now and find myself irritated by how >many questions appear over and over again. Does Index-l have a frequently >asked questions file? If so, could it be offered each time the listserve >sends out mail? Or does noone else mind the repetition? I have to say my >favorite discussion was the one on hung printers--I'd love to see more of >this kind of discussion. Well, my question is a bit more ordinary, >but...I'm indexing a lot of sources with photos of a musician. I'd like >ideas on how to index photographs of a person. Or sources, if you know of >any? Best wishes to all of you. Nancy Humphreys > > You can get to the right place really quickly by using the Australian Society of Indexers Web page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/affiliat.htm Bye Dwight ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 16:34:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I am a CINDEX user. Part of the issue you address is a matter of current >limitations of CINDEX which will be removed when the program operates in a >windowed environment like WINDOWS or Macintosh. I think it's worth mention, to Larry and others, that I first starting hearing (from the makers) about a possible Mac version of Cindex w-a-a-a-y back in May 1993. Being a Mac user, I was pretty excited about that. Well here we are in March 1995 and still no Cindex for the Mac. (BTW, when Apple pulls a stunt like that, for which it's been repeatedly and harshly criticized, it's called "vaporware.") For whatever reasons, Cindex for the Mac is not on the immediate horizen (I would be *ecstatic* to be proved wrong on that one), and indexers who use a Mac have to deal with the here and now. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 16:34:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Indexing using wordprocessing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Ned, Mary Ellen, and others: When you talk about macros and such, it would be helpful if you specified what platform you're using (IBM or Mac). Some thing you can do on an IBM, you simply can't do on a Mac without specialized software (and vice versa). Macros is one of 'em. Thanks. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 16:34:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Have you ever wished for your own programmer? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >At one time I had "my own programmer," and used custom-designed indexing >software. Believe me, CINDEX is better. Why? Because it's been revised >and improved with each version, and is masterminded by people who >understand indexing. Also, what you describe as indexing in "word- >processing mode" is, I think, closer to a "computer-generated index," >while those of us indexing with page proofs are doing "computer-assisted >indexing." There is a major difference between the two, and maybe that >should be a focus of discussion. Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services, >Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu > > I don't quite agree that indexing in word-processing software is necessarily close to "computer-generated" indexing. Having indexed using word processors and using Macrex, I find that the intellectual effort involved is at least equal. Embedded indexing, in fact, is far more difficult because the indexer does not have the features provided in dedicated indexing software that assist in double-posting, merging cross-references, grouping related entries, etc. All of these things must be done manually or with the aid of some of the clever macros I've seen described here in another thread. Furthermore, the indexer is indexing in the dark because s/he cannot see the index forming without constantly regenerating the index. So, the intellectual effort expended in creating embedded indexes can be tremendous. The only advantages I can see in embedded indexing are the various services provided by Windows (copying and pasting, highlighting text, GUI vs. character-based screen addressing, etc.). Yes, there are some people, surely none of those who post to this list ;-), who blithely go along highlighting terms in a document and entering them into index fields without giving much thought to the process. Indeed, I've seen an "index" that consisted of section headings from the text (e.g., Using Your Custom Typefaces) complete with original capital letters from the headings. However, diligent indexers using word processing or DTP software give as much care to doing all of the things that go into making a good index as those who use dedicated indexing software. IMHO, in embedded indexing, there is even less "computer-assistance" than in using dedicated software because the software itself is fighting you every step of the way. As a last thought, I insist that my clients for FrameMaker projects give me hard-copy page proofs in addition to the electronic files. Trying to read an entire book from only what's on the screen would drive me up a wall. This is especially true because, when working in FrameMaker, I constantly have both the Marker and Find/Change dialog boxes open and can only see several lines of text at a time. The best of all worlds would be dedicated indexing software for Windows. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs