From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.eduFri Aug 25 10:59:44 1995 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:55:19 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9506C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:54:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Jensen Subject: Computer generated Indexes The comment from Susan McDougall re the poor quality of indexes to computer manuals reminded me of a book I was recently asked to consider re-indexing as the pagination had slipped when the formatting of the text was altered. One term had over 80 (yes, EIGHTY) page references to it. In the end, the producers of the book decided to use a computer program to produce the "index" (I called it almost a "concordance" again - as it was cheaper than a person - but, unfortunately I did not get a chance to comment on the standard to the originators. I was dealing with a third party. And they call this indexing!! Joan D Jensen ======================================================================= Joan D Jensen R.G. Menzies Library Building Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 Australia [jdj@info.anu.edu.au] [Phone: 06 2492994] [Fax: 06 2490058] Be practical! Plan for a miracle every day. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:58:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Jensen Subject: Cookbook Indexes Years ago when I was in Syracuse, a friend gave me a copy of a Moosewood Cookbook that was indexed by most common (or, in some instances, uncommon) ingredients. Most useful if one has a surplus of one particular item from the garden. I notice this practice has become reasonably quite common, with most of the Julie Stafford books being done the same way. Joan ======================================================================= Joan D Jensen R.G. Menzies Library Building Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 Australia [jdj@info.anu.edu.au] [Phone: 06 2492994] [Fax: 06 2490058] Be practical! Plan for a miracle every day. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 07:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: indexing of computer manuals Am I the only who's noticed that the computer manual thread and the cookbook thread it spawned are related in a sort of weird way? Consider that automated "indexing" is taking the ingredients of the text, baking them halfway, and voila... ! (These insights are the result of indexing computer manuals on 3-hour naps per night this week, BTW, in FrayedMaker for Windoze software.) Anyway, following on Carolyn's example of automated indexing: >England, New Journal of Medicine > >Journal, New England of Medicine > I have a manual for software I own containing the following entry: Using Your Custom Typefaces Of course there weren't any entries under "Typefaces" or even "Custom Typefaces". The scarey part of this is that there are signs of human intervention in this "index", so we can't even blame this on a computer. Equally interesting is that, whenever I've brought this up as an example in presentations on indexing, someone in the audience invariably knows which software company is the culprit--so this is a rather infamous index it seems. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 07:44:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Bounced Posts Larry, Thanks for the info on adding REP to Index-L subscriptions. Two weeks ago, after getting two bounce notices for one posting, I decided to wait and see if there were any responses to my Web page posting before trying to repost it. Anyway, you saved me from subscribing to Index-L from my AOL account so I could read my postings on one account from the other, which was the only solution I could come up with before now. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs You wrote: > >Hey folks, > >Getting a bad bounce back from a post does not mean you should re-post to >INDEX-L. Just means that somebody couldn't be reached; the rest of us got it, >trust me! > >Still in doubt? Add REP to your subscription, and you will get a copy of your >own post. > >Larry Harrison > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:41:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Subheadings & Sub-subheadings Indexing jobs often have constraints that supersede the ideals of the indexer or the dictates of rules. Many publishers limit their indexes to two levels--main heading and subheading--and no more. The client could be concerned about space limitations, or be trying to tailor the style of the index to a nonsophisticated audience unused to sub-subheadings, or may just want to have the index be light and breezy, easy to scan. In that case, the use of level-one "Germany" headings in succession would solve the problem. Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maryann Corbett Subject: Re: Cookbook Indexes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jun 95 16:58:35 EST." Indexing recipes by most common ingredient is a great addition, but it doesn't supply the other basic need: grouping by type of dish. Of course we want to be able to look up Casseroles, Cobblers, Muffins, Pancakes, Pies, not to mention Fricasees, Ragouts, and Timbales. Once cookbook index that does a wonderful job of rotating things in every useful way is the index to _The Joy of Cooking_. It's one of those great indexes that actually teaches you things while it helps you find what you're looking for. Maryann Corbett maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:37:31 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: doug montalbano Subject: Cookbook indexes' quality I am bemused by recent remarks disparaging cookbook indexes. I am not a professional indexer -- I'm a scientific & technical writer-editor -- but the indexes of two cookbooks I use seem pretty good, indeed, very good. The two books are _Joy of Cooking_ and _The Fanny Farmer Cookbook_. I imagine that I use both so much because (1) I'm not that much of a cook, and (more importantly, 2) I've always been able to find what I needed in their indexes. Any professional opinions about these 2 particular works? Do I need to have the scales shed from my eyes? doug_montalbano@cc.chiron.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:54:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard Shrout, LIB, (202) 514-5102" Subject: ASI Colorado Chapter Meeting Lori, Well, now that my reputation as a lurker is firmly established I am experiencing what might be termed "lurker hell" on AOL. For some unknown reason, my software will not let me post a message in the folder. It is sort of like standing outside watching the party inside and no one can see me. I composed this great note last night in response to the request for Cambodian poetry translation, Dick must be going bonkers over that message. I suggested that there was a great waitress at the Bouquet restaurant that could actually work on that translation for a few years. Sunday afternoon I got back to the hotel just in time to catch a quick lunch before the shuttle to the airport arrived. There was only one table in use and there was one waiter. I thought it could be done. Wrong! There were two hostesses, one waiter, one table in use - very strange. Anyway, I sat down and nothing happened, the waiter disappeared. Then after some discussion in the kitchen, She appeared, the blonde. I knew that I was in deep doo doooh. I ordered lemonade and water. She said - so you want mineral water? I said, no, lemonade and water separately. So she brought just lemonade in about 5 or 10 minutes. I was grateful for that. She finally brought out the club sandwich with about 2 minutes to spare. I gulped it down and looked around for her. Now you have to realize that no one had come in. I was her only customer. I got up in desperation with my billfold out, ready to leave whatever loonies that I still had - and she reappeared. She said - You really are in a hurry today! Customs was frantic. With no instructions and a huge crowd. But I made it safely home with a minimum of further adventures. I sent out two books as samples, one to IDG and one to Microsoft. Both requested books. And FYIO (For Your Information Only) I am trying to write an article about the Convention, titled "Lurking at the Cross Roads - the Meetings Behind the Meetings" As soon as I get it into electronic form I will send it to you somehow for comments, suggestions. It needs a lot of work. It may be two articles and not one but I think at least parts of it would allow those who were not there some feel of what we experienced. Please let everyone know in the AOL folder that I can read what they are saying but cannot reply - for the time being anyway. Au revoir! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:45:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard Shrout, LIB, (202) 514-5102" Subject: Re: ACH/ALLC '95 program Hey, Jennifer How are you? Upon reflection, I could have stayed longer in Vieux Montreal that night but I think Carol wanted to go back. I took a while but we got back via my special underground route through the Place d'Arts and the subway. I will send you a resume some day just so you have it. The only unique subject areas that I can think of that might be unique and needed some day to an academic press are my knowledge of Heidegger, particularly of Sein und Zeit, and my knowledge of Mormons since I are one. My philosophy major at KU was essentially a major in Heidegger's Sein und Zeit. Professor Robinson taught most of my courses. I kept taking them because I wanted to find out what in the world he was really talking about. It turned out that he had spent 20 or 30 years translating Sein und Zeit and was still talking about that, even in introductory philosophy classes. He unfortunately was killed in a car accident a few years after I graduated. He was a very nice man and very learned. I sent sample books to Microsoft Press and IDG Books. One of the Osborne editors is trying to get the authors of a 1,000 page book to consent to having me do their index. She says that they normally do their own and they are terrible. So I have several irons in the fire right now. Au revoir. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:38:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Indexing in Public Libraries >I'm new to the list (and a library science student). I'll probably end >up in a public library. It sounds like most of you are back-of-the-book >indexers, but I was just wondering if any of you could share your >experiences in public libraries. I'm particularly interested in the types >of projects, time spent indexing, etc. Thanks! >Tammy Schneider Tammy, I've been a public librarian in a large system (Dallas) for 27 years and (except for a short stretch in the '70s, when we had money...) I can't remember any significant project we've done involving indexing. There's just no staff, no free time, and no budget for it. The local genealogical society is very activity in supporting the library and *they've* been indexing and abstracting the old newspapers and several lengthy series of county records of which we have custody. Naturally, for them it's all volunteer work. FWIW, an awful lot of the senior staff at Dallas Public -- those who didn't want to retire yet -- have moved to "special" libraries in the private sector over the past decade. Consider brushing up your undergrad major if it's marketable so you can be competitive.... Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith@metronet.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 22:19:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Annette Wengle Subject: Re: indexing in public libraries I was delighted to find some discussion of automating 'shoebox'card files in public libraries. I was beginning to believe I'd joined the wrong discussion group. Have I? Our library is a large public reference library with extensive indexes on cards--songs, sheet music, plays in collections and periodicals, architecture in Toronto, etc. Some of these indexes are to catalogued items for which analytics are not provided, and we'd ideally like to link the automated record to the OPAC record. We are just at the planning stage, and I am very interested in finding out how others have done this. Particularly -examples of automated indexes on the Internet -information and recommendatins about software -experiences and advice about flat file vs. relational databases -anyone using Dataease? -can you recommend another discussion group which addresses these questions? Annette Wengle Arts Department, Metropolitan Toronto Reference Library, Toronto, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 07:35:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Cookbook indexes' quality In-Reply-To: <9506152204.AA01426@symnet.net> On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, doug montalbano wrote: > I am not a professional indexer -- I'm a scientific & technical > writer-editor -- but the indexes of two cookbooks I use seem pretty > good, indeed, very good. The two books are _Joy of Cooking_ and > _The Fanny Farmer Cookbook_. I imagine that I use both so much > because (1) I'm not that much of a cook, and (more importantly, 2) > I've always been able to find what I needed in their indexes. > > Any professional opinions about these 2 particular works? Do I > need to have the scales shed from my eyes? Both cookbooks that you mentioned, especially Joy of Cooking, have great indexes. I'm not sure if they're the exception--or if bad indexes just tend to stick in one's mind more than do good indexes! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Books make sense of life. The only problem is that the lives they make sense of are . . . never your own."--Julian Barnes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:57:23 CDT Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: indexing in public libraries Annette Wengle: Contact Barbara Ann McAlpine at the Oakville Public Library, for information about indexing large projects on-line. Barbara E. Cohen -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:11:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Cookbook Indexes Original Post: <...Once cookbook index that does a wonderful job of rotating things in every useful way is the index to _The Joy of Cooking_. It's one of those great indexes that actually teaches you things while it helps you find what you're looking for. Maryann Corbett maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us> ------ Maryann, YES! In fact, though the book I recently indexed was tiny, I used everything I learned from the Joy of Cooking index in doing it! Great fun. And, the author (it is a self-published book) loved it, too. I hope he writes many more. Larry Harrison [Bookindexr@aol.com] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:11:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Cookbook indexes' quality Original Post: <...Both cookbooks that you mentioned, especially Joy of Cooking, have great indexes. I'm not sure if they're the exception--or if bad indexes just tend to stick in one's mind more than do good indexes! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net)>>>>> Hazel, My thought is that software manuals and cookbooks have one thing in common: you need to refer back to them often for detailed information. You cannot just read them once and remember everything you need to know. Thus, a wonderful cookbook with a lousy index causes a frustrating experience to occur every time you use the book. This is why the bad ones stick in my mind. The same could be said for a wonderfully useful software product with a lousy manual or a badly indexed manual. It's not just that the quality is worse than any other type of book (although I would argue that the mean is worse for software manuals, for reasons discussed earliner) but that it is so important that the information be quickly accessible. A couple of years ago Nancy Mulvany gave a paper on embedded indexing (primarily used for software manuals) in which she quoted an independent survey of computer software users. The quality of the documentation, especially the index, was a very important factor in the usefulness and perceived quality of a software product. She was proposing to use this information to persuade software companies of the bottom-line benefit of getting off the merry-go-round long enough to produce better quality manuals, properly indexed by a professional indexer, and to improve the quality of embedded indexing software tools. Larry Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:43:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Humphreys Subject: definition of page I generally like to charge by the page for index jobs, and I've come up with an easy way to translate that into hourly or per line charges. However, I've realized that pages can vary considerably in the number of words on them! Has anyone come up with a standard number of words per indexable page? I'm thinking of setting 420 words per page as my standard. I know if you do a lot of indexes a year, it might average out, but I work full time, so I only take one or two offers a year now. Usually for friends, so I'd like to make sure I'm not undercharging for myself. Nancy Humphreys P.S. While I'm online, I'd like to say that where I work, we have created a prevention thesaurus (alcohol and other drugs) using Thesaurus Construction Progam software and found it works very well for us. The Thesaurus is about 100 pages, double columns with alphabetical, hierarchic and rotated term lists. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 17:38:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Cookbook indexes' quality Nancy Mulvany's excellent paper on embedded indexing can be read online on the Indexing Conference on the Well's Web site. The URL is: http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/index.htm. When you get to the home page, scroll down and you'll find a link for Papers and Articles About Indexing. You can also reach the Well's Indexing Conference site from the ASI Web site at: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bero/ASI/index.htm Click on the link for Online Indexing Discussions to get to the page with the link to the WeLL's Indexing Conference. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs You wrote: >A couple of years ago Nancy Mulvany gave a paper on embedded indexing >(primarily used for software manuals) in which she quoted an >independent survey of computer software users. The quality of the >documentation, especially the index, was a very important factor in >the usefulness and perceived quality of a software product. She was >proposing to use this information to persuade software companies of >the bottom-line benefit of getting off the merry-go-round long enough >to produce better quality manuals, properly indexed by a professional >indexer, and to improve the quality of embedded indexing software >tools. > >Larry Harrison > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 19:48:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "laura m. gottlieb" Subject: Hazel Bell's booklet Hi! I'm an Index-L lurker coming out of the shadows long enough to ask whether anyone in the USA who subscribes to Index-L has a copy of Hazel Bell's booklet _Indexing Biographies and Other Stories of Human Lives_ that they'd be willing to lend me or xerox for me (I'd be happy to pay for the xeroxing and the postage). The ASI publications office no longer stocks it and says that it is only available from England through _The Indexer_. I'd prefer not to wait so long for it, as I'm in the middle of indexing an extremely dense true crime saga with an incredible number of details abut physical evidence, fictional scenarios involving possible activities of murder suspects, and the major characters appearing throughout as witnesses hark back to their lives before the murder in order to ascribe various motivations for the murder. Having read short articles by Hazel Bell on the indexing of biographies in _The Indexer_, I think her booklet would help me figure out how much of this information should be under the individuals' names and how much should be under subject entries (or both). Thanks!--BTW, I've been indexing academic and trade books for 13 years and love doing biographies (and women's studies, lit crit, history, and social analysis). This is my first true crime book, though!--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 06:01:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Subheadgings and sub-subheadings A practice that quite a few publishers have (at least in the UK) is to indent the first subheading and let the sub-subheadings run on from the first subheading. I think this works quite well and is a reasonable alternative to indenting both levels. It means that you can usually con the publisher that you have kept things simple while retaining a three level structure. I imagine that it's pretty clear to the user what's happening too - but how much do we know about what `the user' does or doesn't understand? Drusilla D & H Calvert ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 15:20:11 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: Subheadings & Sub-subheadings -- the more the better >Some of my clients don't permit subsubheadings, but when they do I use >them, unless space is tight and the index is going three columns across >(or is run-in). > >For example, in an index I'm working on now (or should be instead of >sitting here online), I have the following: > >annotations > viewing > cluster, 4-70 > definition, 4-64 > specification, 4-73 > It was good you mentioned about subsubheadings in computer manuals. Computer software is very complex and if you use the motto 'keep it simple stupid' you can lose a heck of lot of detail. You at least need to know where a thread begins e.g. (fictional though plausible) compression algorithms LZV PC Mag storage space spanning volumes limitations of This assumes a basic degree of computer literacy and begs the question how much is enough. The above example directs the reader into two branches - algorithms (programs) or storage space (hardware constraints). It then leads into quite technical areas like LZV compression algorithms which, unless the user was a programmer of a few years, they wouldn't know it existed! Although some more advanced texts are smoother in writing style if they use jargon, the reader must have either a glossary or a thesaurus alongside. Jargon makes it concise or else the practitioner will throw it aside. On the other hand a good index will lead a beginner into more complex subject areas. A way to bridge the gap between beginner and advanced is to include appropriate links or see references to lead into the jargon term. It all depends on the audience. In retrospect it reads very much like a reference search at the library when I was doing my librarianship course at Uni of New South Wales. I had to research a optometry problem on curve-fitting of ellipses for contact lenses. I didnt' know anything about it so tried all the cross-references I could find through CDROMs containing mathematics journals, books in the biomed library on optometry and so on. The researcher was quite amazed by the diversity of the material I found. Think like a researcher and of course get the index road-tested on a pleb! Cheers Dwight ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker dwalker@zeta.org.au +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:23:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Subheadings & Sub-subhead... Although Dwight's point about use of a second level of subhead and his comment that much detail is lost by trying to "keep it simple, stupid" were made in the context of computer science books, they hold very true in indexing the "heavy" sciences also. Books in fields like biology, medicine, and physics really need two levels of subhead to express relationships and to lead the reader/researcher along logical paths set down by the indexer. Fortunately, most of the publishers of sci/med materials I work for are anxious for an excellent index, and don't subscribe to the KISS theory. Janet Perlman (jperlman@aol.com) Southwest Indexing Scottsdale, AZ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 12:13:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Software manual indexing ... Lynn's messages about indexing products with no names in FrameMaker with one day to do 150 pages made me scream and laugh. It's so good to hear that it happens to others besides me! How about: translators for a recent software project of mine wanted the index written for each chapter separately. The chapters were going to be arriving to me with a few days in between each one. And shipped to the translators with the same strung-out schedule. The translation team thought I could index each chapter, then when I was editing the whole index, I could just track each and every change and they would adjust theirs to match it. I think I finally got across the message that it would be a huge waste of time on my part and theirs, and that if they could just wait until the index was done, they could translate it without editing. The index can't be done before it's done! What was the old saw about "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, or you can have good quality. Choose two." Somehow I want to add a line in there about "You can make me use horrible tools or do work five times over" and doubling the price! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 13:00:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: definition of page The page rate should vary, it would seem to me, not by the size of the page or the number of words on, but by the indexable material therein. Some books have ten entries a page, some have three. The only way to figure out how much to charge is to see the material--or a representative sample, and to figure out how long it should take you to do the job. Then, whatever you make per hour should account for the fact that you have no benefits, pay your own taxes, and only get paid for the time you are actually indexing, and that indexing is highly specialized, often mind-frying work. Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 16:16:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Harper's magazine I've heard that someone has been compiling an index to Harper's magazine. I'm not sure if it's current or backfiles that are involved. I'd much appreciate hearing from anyone who knows about this index. Please reply directly to me rather than the list -- and thanks. Jessica Milstead The JELEM Company P.O. Box 5063 Brookfield, CT 06804 76440.2356@compuserve.com Voice: (203) 740-2433 Fax: (203) 740-1152 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:55:25 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Dartnall Subject: Re: converting manual indexes 'was' indexing in public libraries In-Reply-To: <199506160620.AA22549@jculib.jcu.edu.au> I'm following up the enquiry extracted below. I don't know if our experience here can help you but you may be interested. In this small University library we used to have a regional history and geography index as a card file, (The North Queensland Index). We have Dynix as our main library software and we automated the NQ Index by adding a new field to our Dynix records and including the index terms in there. We have a new menu item on the Opac called North Queensland subjects based on this new field and the analyticals show, of course, whenever any catalogue record containing them is retrieved through another route so it provides added information to all catalogue users. We are now adding to the file by indexing the theses of this University with North Queensland subject relevance for inclusion (as well as indexing new materials as it arrives, of course). My advice to someone doing this sort of thing is to look at the quality of the indexing you are automating and consider how much would actually benefit from reindexing. It's also a great oportunity for weeding. Hope this helps and some others follow this thread too. Jean Jean Dartnall Information Services Librarian James Cook University of North Queensland Townsville Queensland Jean.Dartnall@jcu.edu.au On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Annette Wengle wrote: > Our library is a large public reference library with extensive indexes on > cards--songs, sheet music, plays in collections and periodicals, > architecture in Toronto, etc. Some of these indexes are to catalogued > items for which analytics are not provided, and we'd ideally like to link > the automated record to the OPAC record. We are just at the planning > stage, and I am very interested in finding out how others have done this. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 20:55:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Differentiation The book I am indexing has several general discussions of Jimmy Carter, one of which is on page 80. Also on page 80 is a discussion of his Rose Garden Strategy, which I wish to include as a subentry. Is it awkward to do this? Carter, Jimmy, 12-14, 63, 80 Rose Garden Strategy of, 80 The point is that there is also general information about him on page 80. Opinions? Gratefully, Craig Brown :{) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:03:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Differentiation >Carter, Jimmy, 12-14, 63, 80 > Rose Garden Strategy of, 80 > I think such subheadings are appropriate, but would word as: Carter, Jimmy, 12-14, 63, 80 Strategy, Rose Garden, 80 Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com http://www.electriciti.com/~prider ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:24:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "laura m. gottlieb" Subject: differentiation ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Craig Brown asked about whether one should index references to Jimmy Carter as follows: Carter, Jimmy, 12-14, 63, 80 Rose Garden strategy of, 80 I think it depends upon how many references to Carter there are in the book and how important this particular strategy is in it. If there are no more references to Carter than the ones above, I would simply use the first line and omit the second completely. If there are going to be many references to Carter and his various policies and strategies, I would break it down as you have. I'm not very fond of inverting subentries, as Pam Rider suggested to do (Strategy of, Rose Garden), and would probably do so *only* if I were going to add several of Carter's other strategies as subentries and you wanted to have them all grouped together: e.g., Strategy of, Rose Garden Strategy of, Iranian hostages Strategy of, Middle Eastern, etc. Again, this would depend on whether these strategies were discussed in depth. If they were not discussed at length, I might list *all* of them under Carter, Jimmy: domestic policy strategies of or Carter, Jimmy: foreign policy strategies of with cross references from Rose Garden strategy to "Carter, Jimmy: domestic policy strategies of." (I can't quite remember: wasn't Carter's Rose Garden strategy an attempt to make himself seem presidential for domestic reasons?) Anyway, these are my thoughts on the subject. Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:24:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Abrams Subject: Spanish term for "Indexer" ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Recently, I commissioned a Spanish translation of a very basic, summarized standard agreement for work performed. The translator claimed that there is no vernacular term for "indexer." An index is indice, etc., but the noun form or appellation doesn't exit. Can someone familiar with Spanish confirm this, or suggest a way to translate this designation? In return, I'll share my elementary "propuesta" (which had to do with providing the added feature of bilingual subject terms). [::::::: William Abrams, Chief Serials Cataloger +++ Portland State Univ. Library, P.O. Box 1151, Portland, OR 97207 +++ (503) 725-4574 Fax (503) 725-5799 ++++ abrams@godzilla.lib.pdx.edu :::::::] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:52:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Matt Miller Subject: Using biz by Norman Knight In-Reply-To: <199506201707.KAA18816@netcom23.netcom.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Why not use 80 biz for the second reference, as described by G. Norman Knight on page 107 of "Indexing, the Art of"? Matt Miller memiller@netcom.com > Craig Brown asked about whether one should index references to Jimmy Carter > as follows: > > Carter, Jimmy, 12-14, 63, 80 > Rose Garden strategy of, 80 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:00:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@aol.com Subject: ARMA 1996 conference ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Attention indexers: I have received a request for speakers ("call for presentations") for the 1996 conference of the Association of Records Managers and Administrators, Inc. (ARMA), which will be held in Denver on Oct. 13-16, 1996. If you are interested in giving a talk on indexing (manual or automated), they are interested in hearing from you. Contact: Wayne Duncan, 1996 Program Chair University of Missouri 2910 LeMone Blvd. Columbia, MO 65201 314/ 882-6541 fax 314/884-4498 e-mail: Duncanw@ext.missouri.edu or ARMA International 4200 Somerset Drive, Ste. 215 Prairie Village, KA 66208-5287 913/ 341-3808 fax 913/341-3742 1-800-422-2762 e-mail 76015.3151@compuserve.com The deadline for submitting papers is October 31, 1995. Submitted by Barbara E. Cohen, ASI publicity coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:00:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: differentiation ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Craig Brown asked about whether one should index references to Jimmy Carter >as follows: > >Carter, Jimmy, 12-14, 63, 80 > Rose Garden strategy of, 80 > It also depends on how the phrase is used. You don't want to arbitrarily break up a phrase that is commonly treated as a unit. For instance, you would not index "Mason-Dixon Line" as "Line, Mason-Dixon." Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:00:54 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maria Lopezhuertas Subject: Re: Spanish term for "Indexer" In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:24:39 ECT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I read your message asking for the Spanish translation for indexer. I have been doing a little research, and I found that indizador, the expected translation of indexer, is not in the Dictionary of the Royal Language Academy, which is the official body in charge of normalizing the Spanish language in Spain. Nevertheless, this dictionary has the word clasificador that is clasiffier. Then, I went to a technical dictionary English-Spanish to see how indexer is translated in there, and the translation was indizador. I give you the reference for the latter dictionario: Federico Beigbeder Atienza. New politechnic dictionary of Spanish and English language. Madrid, Diaz Santos, 1988. I would add also that indizador is a word already used among the profesion, at least in Spain. I give you the data I have for you to decide wether or not indizador is a good translation of indexer. I would say it is not bad. I hope this information helps you. Regards. Maria J. Lopez-Huertas. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:02:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Javier Garcia Marco Subject: Spanish term for "Indexer" In-Reply-To: <199506201425.QAA28596@news.rediris.es> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- We usually call indexers with the word "indizadores", at least in Spain. The singular is "indizador". Javier GARCIA MARCO Area de Biblioteconomia y Documentacion Facultad de Filosofia y Letras E-50009 ZARAGOZA