From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JUN-1995 15:08:16.34 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9504A" Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 15:09:30 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9504A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:38:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Overbaugh Subject: Re: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Just like Matthew, I'm trying to improve on my basically layman's indexing skills. I'm a very hands-on learner: is there anyone in the greater Seattle area who would be willing to sit down with me for a few hours and generate an index for a few chapters of a manual I'm working on? I would love to see how the thinking process occurs. BTW: I'll bring doughnuts (or any other wholesome goodies as a bribe)! John O. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * John Overbaugh johno@spry.com Technical Documentation (206) 442-8486 SPRY, Inc Internetworking the desktop Makers of Internet In A Box and AIR Series 3.0: PC Magazine's Communications Product of the Year, 1994! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:38:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jeff Finlay, NYU" Organization: St. Peter's College, US Subject: Re: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I would like to put together a short document, like a FAQ, that would help > beginning indexers get started -- something more in depth and more specific > to that topic than the current FAQ for this group. If something like this > already exists, please let me know. I'd also appreciate references to > reading material for beginning indexers and comments on strong/weak points > of that material. I think that's a great idea. My girlfriend is always asking me to teach her how to index. Easier said than done 8-). I'll bite on some of your questions in the hope this gets off the ground. > (1) After the preliminary reading of the book, when you are ready to > start indexing. How do you usually proceed? Try to select terms at a > very high level (more general) first (e.g. what term best describes this > section as a whole? Or dive right in and index at the detail level, > trying to simultaneously index subjects dealt with by only a few > sentences or a paragraph along with those dealt with by entire sections > or chapters? I dive right in and index, usually indexing a lot more in the first 50-100 pages than in the rest of the book. I think it's common to over-index first, particularly if the terrain is unfamilar, and then find a rhythm. One useful pointer is that intros to books usually preview all topics, so if you have a fairly thorough list of stuff covered there, you can make heading space for it later. > (2) What are some of the questions you ask yourself when indexing? > (E.g. an obvious one is "what would someone look under to try to find > this topic?", but what are some of the less obvious ones that a beginner > should ask himself to keep himself on track?) I think wording of headings is a big one with me. One trick is, where you're in doubt about how to word a heading, use the word(s) the author gave you. At least, that way no-one can say later you interpreted rather than abstracted the book. > (3) What criteria do you use to determine what constitutes "passing > mention" that is not indexable versus "substantive discussion"? Many > times the distinction is very obvious, but many times, there seems to > be a very fine line -- I'm more interested in that fine line. I know > that this will vary, but for most index entries, is it the subject of > a phrase, a whole sentence, 2-3 sentences, a whole paragraph, ...? It WILL vary. I guess my rule of thumb is, that a concept should be embedded as the subject of a paragraph for me to give it a subheading or page number--unless it is important to the author, a constantly recurring theme. For instance, the last book I indexed was on Japanese politics, and the author was full of the idea that mass society had had a huge impact on J society. There weren't more than 3-4 pages in the entire (massive book) on mass society, but there were constant sentence-references to this theme, which I considered important and thus included in the index. > (4) What about topics that the author repeatedly refers > back to when introducing new topics? Should these be indexed, generally? > Or should only the key discussion of that topic be indexed? Or should > that topic be indexed with modifiers showing how it relates to the > the new topics? What criteria are used to decide between these and > other options? I think the modifier option works with me (if I understand modifier aright). If in doubt, I'd say index ALL references to a topic, with as many subheads as you want. You can amalgamate and make the thing more focused later. > (7) How do you decide the depth at which to index? And keep yourself > at a uniform indexing depth? I seem to tend towards the pitfall of > overindexing at a very specific level and not be able to "see the > forest for the trees", so to speak. What are some things I can do > to help prevent this? Are there questions I can ask myself while > indexing to help keep the correct depth? I think the nature of the book will determine the depth of the indexing in the end. You said you were doing something on theology. If it is a study or a book of essasy, my guess is there'll be tons of concepts; if it's a primer or textbook your concepts ought to be more straightforward. The complexity arises with the cross-referencing of materials. I generally like to keep a "story-board" of index cards so I can see the various interlinking materials in front of me. Hope this helps, Jeff Finlay American Studies, NYU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:45:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Will Hires Subject: Re: USDA Corr. Courses-Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:24:07 ECT from Could you provide the rest of us the basic info about these courses? On Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:24:07 ECT Becky Walton said: > [Moderator's note: I sent Becky the basic info about this course (address, > and cost...Others may want to comment on length and quality] > [Sorry, I should know better....here 'tis...Charlotte] Graduate School of the USDA Correspondence Programs, Ag Box 9911 Room 1114, South Agriculture Building 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC 20250 (202) 720-7123 TDD: (202) 690-1516 Tuition: (includes all materials) $281.00--Basic Indexing (beginning) $275.00--Applied Indexing (more advanced) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:52:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Kelly stated that she had only one level of connection and that was e-mail. This is a problem many people face and NLM just recently made many of their gopher and www resources available by e-mail server for just that reason. To muddy the waters -- how great is the listserv search tool/command "index"? Pretty poor finding tool, imho. Hannah kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:53:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@aol.com Subject: Re: USDA Corr. Courses-Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Becky Walton wrote: > The recommendation has been made to me to take something called the > "USDA Correspondence Courses" on indexing. Can anyone provide me any > info on these courses, such as cost, length, quality, etc.? I am currently working on Lesson 9 of the 10 lessons in the USDA Correspondence course in Basic Indexing, and I find it thoroughly enjoyable. My instructor is Nancy Mulvaney, and she is excellent. Her book, _Indexing Books_ is the textbook. I'm sure that the other instructors are also excellent. It teaches you *much* more than just indexing - like how to estimate jobs, set up a business, etc. In addition to the convenience of a correspondence course, I think it's a great value - only about $280 for 10 lessons and the textbooks. I highly recommend it. (You are allowed 1 year to complete the 10 lessons and the final exam; you work at your own pace.) Peg Mauer pmauer@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:54:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RachelR@aol.com Subject: Re: USDA Corr. Courses-Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Becky, I'm taking the USDA basic course and I am very happy with the content, and quality of feedback. I think the excercises are well-thought out, take a reasonable amount of time to complete, and cover all important basic knowledge. My first two lessons took 7 weeks to come back, and I believe this was because it was over the Christmas holiday and that the slowdown was at the USDA, not with my instructor. My second two lessons came back in about a week! My instructor has provided very good feedback for me, and has been encouraging. The school also sends an answer sheet back with your lesson so you can compare your answers to their expectations. I met someone else who is now taking the advanced course. He said it is also quite helpful, but is much more difficult than the basic course, as it should be, I guess! There are several others of us taking the course who read this list. We talked about getting some kind of separate list going but I don't know how to do that easily. If anyone else does, let me know what to do. Good luck, and keep in touch. RachelR ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:54:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laurie Solomon <0002557272@mcimail.com> Subject: Sonar Bookends ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am usually just a silent surfer (is there another term?) on this list, passing along helpful information to my colleagues. There is currently a request for advice from the Copyediting List that I thought you'all might be able to provide suggestions. > >Has anyone used an indexing program called Sonar Bookends by Virginia >Software Systems? It indexes PageMaker and QuarkXPress documents (among >others) as well as cataloguing disks. I'm considering purchase and wondered >what experience others have had. (I've had a second-hand positive report >from a desktop publisher and a mildly negative report from an indexer, who I >think does much more detailed work than I do.) I will forward any comments back to the original poster, as well as the whole Copyediting List. Thanks. Laurie Solomon Cohen (Laurie_Solomon@MCIMail.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:55:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dave Strickler Subject: Duplicated locators ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have just completed my first back-of-the-book index after 2 years of database indexing. Happily, it was a junior high textbook, the perfect vehicle for a beginner. My question is: if there are both a text reference and a photo of the same subject on the same page, is it common practice to include two references, e.g., elephants, 62, p62 , or only one; and if the latter, which one? I used Cindex for the 6400 or so entries of this index, by the way. I cannot CONCEIVE of doing something like that with index cards. How did you pre-automation pioneers keep your sanity? Many thanks. Dave Strickler ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:55:44 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J.A.Lawrence@massey.ac.nz Subject: Re: USDA Corr. Courses-Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > [Moderator's note: I sent Becky the basic info about this course (address, > and cost...Others may want to comment on length and quality] > > >The recommendation has been made to me to take something called the >"USDA Correspondence Courses" on indexing. Can anyone provide me any >info on these courses, such as cost, length, quality, etc.? > >Thank you very much. > >Becky Walton > >Becky Walton >College of Library & Information Science >University of South Carolina >Columbia, SC 29208 >home address: 944-C Amberly Court > Norcross, GA 30093 > 404/717-7047 > >MEOW! > >I would also appreciate the information about these courses. We do not have such a course in New Zealand and I am really interested in learning to do it well. thanks, Judy lawrence Judy Lawrence Audiovisual Librarian Massey University Library Private bag 11054 Palmerston North New Zealand Phone 64 6 3569099 ex 7839 Fax 64 6 350 5605 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:25:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Zolnerzak Subject: Re: Questions on how to index In-Reply-To: ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I couldn't resist replying to this subject. First, a brief background: I started indexing (totally self-taught) in 1973, when I publisher I was free-lancing for needed an index for a FORTRAN book and knew that I'd worked with FORTRAN at IBM from 1957-1966 as a programmer, analyst, and supervisor. I did the index on four sheets of paper (A-F, G-M, N-S, T-Z), not knowing any better. Publisher: "Great, how would you like a 1200-page book on Music and a 900-page book on Sociology to index?" With timidity, Indexstrip cards, ingenuity, and (blush) intelligence I found a productive, quick, complete, and relatively easy method of indexing a book even when I didn't know anything about the subject. Through the next five years I 1) decided it would be too expensive to program an indexing program, 2) taught 15 people "my" indexing method, and 3) wrote my method into a 40-page book. I computerized in 1982 with IPS on a Radio Shack Model II [talk about ancient history!], and in 1985 I expanded my 40 pages into a [this is no typo!] 827-page Indexing Handbook (IH). An agent was eager to market this, but after four years, starting with University of Chicago Press and Bowker, ending with smaller university presses (and even debating self-publishing), the agent found NO takers for the invariable reason: the market wouldn't be large enough. Ch.1(14pp) gives a simple index and basic definitions, Ch.2(134pp) gives my indexing process, Ch.3(51pp) gives grammar and typographical rules, Ch.4(61pp) describes specialized index, Ch.5(123pp) gives personal and administrative skills, Ch.6(108pp) gives customer handling tips, Ch.7(126pp) gives computerization, Ch.8(168pp) gives additional indexing details and tips, Ch.9(42pp) gives miscellaneous information and describes the (not-yet-done) three concluding (too-short, incorrect, and correct) indexes to IH. The chapters DON'T REALLY stand alone, but I was thinking about uploading them (as is, since I really don't have time now to revise and update the whole thing---though the core "method" is still good) SOMEWHERE on Internet and letting people take what they want. I'm relatively new to Internet (and to INDEX-L) so I don't know if this kind of handbook has been discussed before (I haven't read the INDEX-L archives yet). Sorry to be so long-winded---but can I get some considered opinions? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:41:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jeff Finlay, NYU" Organization: St. Peter's College, US Subject: Re: Duplicated locators ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > My question is: if there are both a text reference and a photo of the > same subject on the same page, is it common practice to include two > references, e.g., elephants, 62, p62 , or only one; and if the latter, > which one? Illustrations, usually I'd put as page number underlined (mark to the publisher to bold it) > I used Cindex for the 6400 or so entries of this index, by the way. I cannot > CONCEIVE of > doing something like that with index cards. How did you pre-automation > pioneers keep your sanity? I STILL use index cards from time to time. Them machines you use are a creation of the devil and, yes, I'm wearing no underpants. Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:41:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@compuserve.com> Subject: Duplicated locators ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >> I used Cindex for the 6400 or so entries of this index, by the way. I cannot >> CONCEIVE of >> doing something like that with index cards. How did you pre-automation >> pioneers keep your sanity? What makes you think we did ? Jessica Milstead The JELEM Company P.O. Box 5063 Brookfield, CT 06804 76440.2356@compuserve.com Voice: (203) 740-2433 Fax: (203) 740-1152 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:42:22 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Katie Hover Subject: Editor Position ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ______This position has been cross posted. Please excuse the duplications________________________ The Microsoft Network (MSN) is currently accepting applications for the position of Search Schema Manager. This person will create and administer the editorial process for MSN search schema that enables content on the Microsoft Network to be tagged for data retrieval. We are looking for an individual with proven experience in providing a high level of editorial excellence combined with demonstrated strength in managing a large staff. Minimum qualifications include extensive experience in classification and indexing; extensive working knowledge of existing classification systems and their implementation; broad knowledge of accessing information in a networked environment; and management experience. An advanced degree in Library/Information Science preferred. Foreign language skills a plus. If you are interested, please reference job number N59f2-0404 and send resume to Microsoft. email- y-wait@microsoft.com address- Microsoft Corporation One Microsoft Way, STE 303 Redmond, WA 98052 Microsoft is an equal opportunity employer and supports workforce diversity. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:42:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Duplicated locators ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I usually do NOT duplicate page numbers for illustrations and text references when the figure call-out is well marked in the text, unless the editor/author asks me to do so. It seems unnecessarily redundant to me. But when the figures routinely fall off the page that they are mentioned on (often the case for some sport and exercise books I work on), it can be helpful to indicate the figure pages separately. As for the comment about the sanity of indexers, I'm wondering just how sane we are anyway, computers or no.... :) Glad to hear that you've become a fan of CINDEX. I'm finding that some people just balk at the price, and they can't see how much easier the work will be. Barbara E. Cohen becohen@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:42:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Contr Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: WWW vs. gopher ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >> On Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:52:33 ECT, >> Hannah King said: H> Kelly stated that she had only one level of connection and that was H> e-mail. This is a problem many people face and NLM just recently made H> many of their gopher and www resources available by e-mail server for H> just that reason. To muddy the waters -- how great is the listserv H> search tool/command "index"? Pretty poor finding tool, imho. For what it's worth, it wouldn't be that hard to make a decent search and retrieval backend for email. WAIS (Wide-Area Information Servers) would be ideal for this. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:43:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Editor Position ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Sounds like an interesting position! --------------------- Forwarded message: From: katieh@MICROSOFT.COM (Katie Hover) Sender: ASIS-L%UIUCVMD.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu (ASIS-L: American Society for Information Science) Reply-to: ASIS-L%UIUCVMD.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu (ASIS-L: American Society for Information Science) To: ASIS-L%UIUCVMD.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu (Multiple recipients of list ASIS-L) Date: 95-04-05 07:17:25 EDT ______This position has been cross posted. Please excuse the duplications________________________ The Microsoft Network (MSN) is currently accepting applications for the position of Search Schema Manager. This person will create and administer the editorial process for MSN search schema that enables content on the Microsoft Network to be tagged for data retrieval. We are looking for an individual with proven experience in providing a high level of editorial excellence combined with demonstrated strength in managing a large staff. Minimum qualifications include extensive experience in classification and indexing; extensive working knowledge of existing classification systems and their implementation; broad knowledge of accessing information in a networked environment; and management experience. An advanced degree in Library/Information Science preferred. Foreign language skills a plus. If you are interested, please reference job number N59f2-0404 and send resume to Microsoft. email- y-wait@microsoft.com address- Microsoft Corporation One Microsoft Way, STE 303 Redmond, WA 98052 Microsoft is an equal opportunity employer and supports workforce diversity. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:44:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@aol.com Subject: Re: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Since I'm fairly new at indexing, I can identify with Matthew Pressly's questions. For the same reason, I have what I hope are useful responses to only two of the questions. > (3) What criteria do you use to determine what constitutes "passing > mention" that is not indexable versus "substantive discussion"? One question I've found useful to ask was mentioned by one of the indexers on America Online during a discussion of passing references a while ago (sorry, I've forgotten who it was.) That is: does this mention of the topic provide any *new* information? I also ask myself, "If I were using the index, would I be annoyed when I looked at this part of the text because the indexer has referred me to redundant or insignificant information?" If I would, I conside r it a passing mention. > (7) How do you decide the depth at which to index? The usual answer to this is - what will the reader expect and find useful? That's why it's good to know what type of audience the book will have (i.e., general public versus specialists.) However, sometimes there is a practical limitation to the amount of detail you can include, specifically the number of pages you are given for the index. This can be very frustrating, but it can also make the work go more quickly. That is, if you remember what I learned the hard way, and keep the limits in mind, so you don't have to go back and delete lots of entries you've typed. It seems to me that experience will answer this and most of the other questions for you, but I'm glad you raised them. Mary Mortensen marymort@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:44:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ALOREK@Claude.CapCollege.BC.CA Organization: Capilano College Subject: Demo copy of Mac index software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm teaching a short (16-hour) course on indexing at Simon Fraser University's Writing and Publishing Program. As part of the course, I give out demo copies of basic/inexpensive indexing software (with the developer's permission) to my students so they can get a feel of how computer-assisted indexing works. Most of the current students have PC systems, so I will give them INDEXX 8.2 demos. However, one is using a Mac! Is there any Macintosh-based indexing software developer out there willing to send me a demo copy of their software as an attached file via e- mail? Please forward it to me at the following e-mail address: alorek@hubcap.mlnet.com. This is because I have a PowerPC at home so can run and make a copy for the student, whereas at work (at the e-mail address below) I only have a PC, and strange as it seems, cannot currently access our on-campus e-mail from home. Also, if any of the PC-based developers are willing to send me a demo copy, I will be happy to show it in class as well! I do mention names of various software and provide addresses, but one demonstration is worth a thousand bibliographies! Thanks, ________________________________________________ /\ C / \/\ A C Annette Lorek, /__ / \ P O Systems Librarian, |/ \ /\ I L Capilano College, / / \ L L North Vancouver, B.C., Canada / /____\ A E alorek@claude.capcollege.bc.ca -------- | N G Tel: 604-986-1911, Local 2143 | | O E ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:45:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: USDA Corr. Courses-Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >On Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:24:07 ECT Becky Walton said: >> [Moderator's note: I sent Becky the basic info about this course (address, >> and cost...Others may want to comment on length and quality] If I had it to do over again, I would hire a local indexer to teach me indexing, rather than taking this course. The turnaround time was very slow and the feedback was minimal, so I didn't feel like I'd gotten my money's worth. I've heard, however, that people's experiences with the course varied greatly depending on the instructor; some people I've talked to thought the course was fantastic. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:45:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Just like Matthew, I'm trying to improve on my basically layman's indexing >skills. I'm a very hands-on learner: is there anyone in the greater Seattle >area > >who would be willing to sit down with me for a few hours and generate an index >for a few chapters of a manual I'm working on? I would love to see how the >thinking process occurs. > >BTW: I'll bring doughnuts (or any other wholesome goodies as a bribe)! > I'm not in the Seattle area so I can't help, but--and I hate to say this, John, because I think you ask the question innocently--any indexer you find would probably prefer cash to donuts. What you are seeking is a tutor. An indexer who takes "a few hours" out of her or his schedule to teach you indexing skills should be properly paid for the time. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:50:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ALOREK@Claude.CapCollege.BC.CA Organization: Capilano College Subject: Re: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Bob Zolnerzak wrote: >I'm > relatively new to Internet (and to INDEX-L) so I don't know if this kind > of handbook has been discussed before (I haven't read the INDEX-L > archives yet). Sorry to be so long-winded---but can I get some considered > opinions? Bob Bob, I have been indexing for 7 years (trade, academic, archival and journal indexes) and would be happy to give you feedback on your book. You could post the document (as a complete work, or as individual chapters) on a Gopher and provide the address and directory path to the members of the list, or send it as a file attachment to an e-mail message to individuals who request it from you directly. ________________________________________________ /\ C / \/\ A C Annette Lorek, /__ / \ P O Systems Librarian, |/ \ /\ I L Capilano College, / / \ L L North Vancouver, B.C., Canada / /____\ A E alorek@claude.capcollege.bc.ca -------- | N G Tel: 604-986-1911, Local 2143 | | O E ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:51:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bernie Roche Subject: Re: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, Bob: I'm a self-taught (still learning) type myself, so I was struck by your very generous offer to put your material up on the Internet. Let's see if I can help. There are three reasonable possibilities: to put your text files on an ftp site, a gopher site, or a web site. Putting them on an ftp site is a snap: just find a site and upload them, then figure out how to periodically tell people where to find them. Links in web pages would do much of this. Same thing with a gopher site: find one, put 'em there, and advertise. Putting them up on a web site would take more work initially, but once done, they would be there like a book for all the world to see. Why bother with publishers, when you can publish the book yourself? I have no way of knowing your experience with web stuff, so at the risk of speaking of something on which you may, for all I know, be an expert, let me say that there are two ways of doing web pages: properly, by using html (hypertext markup language) to display the pages in a fancy manner, or quick-and-dirty, by using the minimum markup necessay to display them in a WYSIWYG format. Or an in-between of the two. For long documents, which may not have a huge readership, I'd suggest the second or third method. Assuming you have standard ascii text files, they could be quickly converted to html. They would look professional, but I'd suggest avoiding going overboard with many links, fancy graphics, etc. If I were in your shoes, I'd put the book up, add a comments facility, and see how it's received. If it seems worthwhile, one could add the fancy parts later, especially if the original html work was done with that possibility in mind. I'm currently running a web site on the University of Pittsburgh machine, and could probably give you space and help you set it up. However, I'm also tutoring a librarian at a Michigan University, and they are setting up a web server in the near future. This would seem a more suitable place for indexing info; the Pittsburgh site might be a bit obscure. I can easily talk the librarian into becoming a hostess. In fact, I think they'd be thrilled to host your work, as they're new to this stuff, and very enthusiastic. Presumably they'll have an ftp site as well in the near future, so you could probably cover both bases. If this is any help to you, please write back, and we'll get rolling. Best Wishes, Bernie Roche Toronto, Canada >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I couldn't resist replying to this subject. First, a brief background: I >started indexing (totally self-taught) in 1973, when I publisher I was >free-lancing for needed an index for a FORTRAN book and knew that I'd >worked with FORTRAN at IBM from 1957-1966 as a programmer, analyst, and >supervisor. I did the index on four sheets of paper (A-F, G-M, N-S, T-Z), >not knowing any better. Publisher: "Great, how would you like a 1200-page >book on Music and a 900-page book on Sociology to index?" With timidity, >Indexstrip cards, ingenuity, and (blush) intelligence I found a >productive, quick, complete, and relatively easy method of indexing a >book even when I didn't know anything about the subject. Through the next >five years I 1) decided it would be too expensive to program an indexing >program, 2) taught 15 people "my" indexing method, and 3) wrote my method >into a 40-page book. I computerized in 1982 with IPS on a Radio Shack >Model II [talk about ancient history!], and in 1985 I expanded my 40 >pages into a [this is no typo!] 827-page Indexing Handbook (IH). An agent >was eager to market this, but after four years, starting with University >of Chicago Press and Bowker, ending with smaller university presses (and >even debating self-publishing), the agent found NO takers for the >invariable reason: the market wouldn't be large enough. Ch.1(14pp) gives >a simple index and basic definitions, Ch.2(134pp) gives my indexing >process, Ch.3(51pp) gives grammar and typographical rules, Ch.4(61pp) >describes specialized index, Ch.5(123pp) gives personal and >administrative skills, Ch.6(108pp) gives customer handling tips, >Ch.7(126pp) gives computerization, Ch.8(168pp) gives additional indexing >details and tips, Ch.9(42pp) gives miscellaneous information and >describes the (not-yet-done) three concluding (too-short, incorrect, and >correct) indexes to IH. The chapters DON'T REALLY stand alone, but I was >thinking about uploading them (as is, since I really don't have time now >to revise and update the whole thing---though the core "method" is still >good) SOMEWHERE on Internet and letting people take what they want. I'm >relatively new to Internet (and to INDEX-L) so I don't know if this kind >of handbook has been discussed before (I haven't read the INDEX-L >archives yet). Sorry to be so long-winded---but can I get some considered >opinions? Bob > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:54:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Will Hires Subject: Re: Questions on how to index In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:25:49 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:25:49 ECT Bob Zolnerzak said: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ..............(STUFF deleted)............................. > The chapters DON'T REALLY stand alone, but I was >thinking about uploading them (as is, since I really don't have time now >to revise and update the whole thing---though the core "method" is still >good) SOMEWHERE on Internet and letting people take what they want. I'm >relatively new to Internet (and to INDEX-L) so I don't know if this kind >of handbook has been discussed before (I haven't read the INDEX-L >archives yet). Sorry to be so long-winded---but can I get some considered >opinions? Bob I, for one, Bob, would be interested in seeing your book. I'd appreciate it if you would let me know when it is available on the internet. Thanks and good luck. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:54:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Arline P. Dell (202) 395-3878" Subject: Re: Duplicated locators ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- i am a new indexer....and currently evaluating cindex and will evaluate macrex as well...any help, suggestions, etc. that you can give me will be most welcome. i am indexing a technical volume with about 5000 entries...any tricks in handling that size index... thanks, arline dell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:55:14 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: authors who invent new terms ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- -------- I'd like to ask about a problem that may only come up in legal indexing, but in case anyone else has seen it, here goes: At times, our legislators decide that they're going to declare policy by changing the name of a specific program, system, or body of law. Last year, in their wisdom, they told us to change the words "unemployment insurance" to "reemployment insurance" throughout the statutes. As indexers, how do you react to this? Do you put the main development under the new term because that's what's in the text, and cross reference from the old term, using it as a SEE reference? Or do you reason that everybody will still look under the old term and will be annoyed at having to look elsewhere? How do you treat the concept at the subheading level? Would you consider it necessary to use internal cross-references from one term to the other under every main heading where the concept appear as a subheading? This is one of those times when I agree with Dickens' Mr. Micawber about what the law is! Maryann Corbett maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:55:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Sholar Subject: Query about copyright of indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have been asked these questions, and I forward these to the list for discussion: * Does the owner of the copyright to a publication (or set of publications) automatically own the copyright to an index to the protected work created by someone else (e.g. a professional indexer). * In other words, are index hits protected? Can they be construed as "quotes"? Does protection extend to abstracts and other extractions from the work that act as navigational tools to the work? I will summarize responses, with permission of the contributors. Thank you, Paul Sholar ( pks@gensym.com ) Sr. Technical Writer Gensym Corporation Cambridge, Massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:56:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: authors who invent new terms In-Reply-To: <9504070013.AA23637@core.symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I just read Maryann Corbett's message. My pities to you, Maryann. "Reemployment insurance" instead of "unemployment insurance"? Arrrggghhhhh! How horrible! And just wait: The term will probably be changed in the next legislative session. My reaction would be to write unemployment insurance. See reemployment insurance and then have the whole development under "reemployment insurance," simply because that's the term that's going to come up in the statutes. And it may be adopted in all sorts of other settings that you can't yet foresee. As far as subheadings go, yes, it'd be nice to have an internal cross-reference from "unemployment insurance" to "reemployment insurance." But I suppose it depends on how much time you have. (Hearty laughter rises as indexers think about how incredibly much time they have to complete projects.) Perhaps the cross-reference from "unemployment insurance" to "reemployment insurance" at the main heading level will take care of it. Is it possible to prepare some sort of brief intro to the index, in which you report on changes in terminology? That would be a terrific help to the index user--if the index user will only take a moment to read that brief intro! Perhaps the intro could be right under the word "INDEX." And you could say something like, "The __th session of the Minnesota Legislature changed a number of terms. Please be aware that UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE is now REEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE" and whatever other changes have been made, set out in alphabetical order. Do you think that would work? I know that various indexers at the Florida Division of Statutory Revision are on index-l. I'd be eager to hear how they solve the problem. Arnie? Susan? Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "The old he-coon walks just before the light of day." --Governor Lawton Chiles of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:57:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: authors who invent new terms ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Maryann, Interesting question re the change in terminology from "unemployment insurance" to "reemployment insurance". Standard practice would probably indicate a cross ref from the old to the new term. However, I would do it differently, to spare the reader/searcher from the annoyance he/she will undoubtedly feel when he looks in the old familiar place and is faced with a cross reference instead. I think for the main entry I would double post, putting the other term in parentheses. In other words, Reemployment insurance (unemployment insurance) and Unemployment insurance (reemployment insurance) *or* Reemployment (unemployment) insurance and Unemployment (reemployment) insurance At the subheading level it's a bit stickier. I wouldn't use internal cross references under every main heading where the concept appears as a subheading. That would be very convuluted. Here's a suggestion -- I'd be curious what other indexers would think of it. What about the following, for example -- Employer contribution unemployment (reemployment) insurance, 000 I'll be interested in seeing other's solutions and in reaction to this suggestion. Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:57:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shore Editorial Services Subject: Re: Duplicated locators ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dave Strickler asks whether to provide two page references in the index if a text reference and a photo of the same subject occur on the same page: the answer depends on whether or not you're indexing the illustrations as well as text, or just the text. If both, then usually you'd have a page number in roman for the text reference and the same page number in italics for the photo. Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:57:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shore Editorial Services Subject: Re: Questions on how to index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Carol Roberts is right to point out that tutors should be properly paid, unless they choose to donate their time to a good cause (what lawyers et al. call pro bono work). Personally, I wouldn't offer pro bono services to a private individual or a for-profit firm. Skills are valualbe property. Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:58:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: USDA Corr. Courses-Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Becky Walton wrote: > >> The recommendation has been made to me to take something called the >> "USDA Correspondence Courses" on indexing. Can anyone provide me any >> info on these courses, such as cost, length, quality, etc.? There would possibly be some demand for this material in Australia as well: could someone fill me in on the generalisability of the material, legal and payment issues, etc. Thanks Jonathan Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:58:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@aol.com Subject: Indexing and computers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As an book indexer who began with index cards long, long ago, I know that there are many advantages to indexing by computer. It makes the work easier, faster, and *somewhat* less stressful, and indexing programs give you the tools to more easily create better indexes and to edit and revise indexes. But I wonder--has the quality of book indexing improved over the last 10 years or so? Is there any connection between the use of computers and the quality of indexes? (Discount, for a moment, computer-generated indexes; I am primarily interested in indexes created by professional indexers.) Are more people, or different types of people, becoming indexers? Have indexing rates been affected, or is the cost of the computer(s) balanced by the time savings? Has anyone made an analysis of this sort? Thanks! Marilyn Rowland indexer/writer Falmouth, MA