========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:19:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cammie Subject: It happened to me ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I've just returned from an "automatic indexing" surprise.... Yesterday I went to lunch at a favorite local cafe where the wonderful cook is working on a cookbook. Several months ago, I spoke briefly with her about the index and casually offered to do the index for her, for free, if she were interested. I did so for a variety of reasons, including: 1) I need to get some indexing experience under my belt and have some "see this" examples 2) The project is *super low budget* - desk top publishing, printing by a friend, etc. 3) I am a supporter of this particular project because the book is oriented to whole foods natural cooking I've kept in touch with her periodically and today I asked what the status was. Her reply: "Oh, I've got a friend at BCC (local community college) who has a system that can automatically index it. So I gave it to him and it will be done this week and then we will do the layout." I was so surprised that I just mumbled "Oh, that's nice," and went and sat down. Since I had only an hour for lunch and was famished, and surprised, I said nothing more. Of course now I feel that, in the interest of the indexing profession at least, I should do or say something to at make this person aware of the pitfalls of so-called "automatic indexing." But I'm not sure what. In actuality, I don't know when I could find time to work on the index now, so I'm not sure that I want to bother with that. The book, if it materializes, won't be distributed by a "real publisher," at least not initially, and so the impact will be limited. The book might also be the only thing written by this individual. I want to trade-off "doing the right thing" with time & effort & ultimate effect. So, I'm looking for some creative suggestions. Of course I can come up with some but 2plus heads are better than one. Here's the payback - I will compile all of the good suggestions on "how to respond to the automatic indexing problem" and resend the compilation. This way, everyone will have a list of rejoinders and strategies to use. We can study these and be prepared! Thanks for any help you contribute! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:26:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: It happened to me ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Cammie, I sympathize with your consternation. It would have been fun to read the recipes while you indexed them! How's this idea: You could offer to look the index over when it is done, since automatic indexing programs usually create indexes that need quite a bit of editing (I'm softening the words here...heh heh). Then you will see just what kind of index she has gotten. If it is terrible, as we can assume it will be, you can do a quick sample of what it SHOULD be, and show her the difference. Good luck! Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:28:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Janet K. Ilacqua" Subject: Re: Dates in index In-Reply-To: <199409211403.HAA19404@mail3.netcom.com> from "Carol Roberts" at Sep 21, 94 09:44:06 am ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My opinion is that it would be easier to make "Cambridge, writings after returning to" a separate entry with its own page references. The entry would both look cleaner and also would save time for the user. Janet K.Ilacqua Freelance indexer/cataloger jki.netcom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:29:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: Re: It happened to me In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 22 SEP 1994 21:05:43 CDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm a dedicated user of Cindex. I'm a strong opponent of "automatic indexing." I use FrameMaker4.0.4 exclusively for all our publising for Thomas Jefferson Univ. Press and Sixteenth Century Publishers, Inc. FM4.0.4 does so-called "automatic indexing." I said all that to say, hey, for the cookbook project the "automatic" might not be so bad--depending on how it is used. Let me give you a little background. Our journal does about 100 book reviews per year. For internal use, I generate an "automatic" book review index after we publish each quarterly journal--that way we can be certain (_IF_ we put in the "markers") of which reviews are published in which issue. We need this, because (1) we use a lot of student help, and (2) the 4 quarterly issues are in various stages of production throughout the year. The "automatics" are great--for internal use only. Yesterday, however, I sat down with 3 printed issues and galleys for the 4th one, and--on purpose--hand typed all the entries into Cindex. (I can see some of you cringing at this redundant labor!). My reasons for doing this had as much to do with production evaluation as with having a book review index. It would have taken me far longer to reshape the "automatics" for an acceptable index in the print journal. Also, not every student remembers to put the electronic markers in their work--so I need to be sure I have all the entries (the entries are only: title & author/editor/translator of book reviewed; separate entry for each author/editor/translator; separate entry for each reviewer). The main point here is: for SOME things, an acceptable index CAN be "generated" from the electronic markers. It won't save any time--in fact its frustratingly slow, and requires a good deal of editing after it's printed. I'd never, never, never use the "automatic" for the subject index of this journal, but i COULD use it for the book review index--if it was all I had. I'd suggest that you wait and see what gets printed. Then you could advise the people that if they want to commercially publish their fine cookbook, they might need an enhanced index--one that only a "real" indexer could provide. Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:29:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Questions for indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Glenda in Australia had asked for answers to several questions about index pricing. I sent a message to her (at Glenda@sydney.dialix.oz.au), but I received a note this morning that the message was undeliverable; the address was nonexistent, or so I was told. Hmmmmmm. Glenda, if you're out there, I'm trying to send you a response, so please drop me a note. Thanks much. -- Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@freenet.tlh.fl.us) "No passion in the world is equal to the passion to alter someone else's draft."--H. G. Wells ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:30:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laurent SCHMITT Subject: Informations on TREC and MUC ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I like do now when and where will be held the next "Message Understanding Conference " (MUC) and the next TREC congres ? Thanks for advance SCHMITT Laurent INIST-CNRS 2 Allee du parc de Brabois 54514 VANDOEUVRE FRANCE E-mail : schmitt@inist.fr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:30:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HairyLarry@aol.com Subject: Re: It happened to me ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Cammie, The cookbook example is a particularly interesting one to consider for automatic indexing. In order to meet the needs of a user who refers to the cookbook for meal planning and cooking, there are very specific requirements for an index (which, by the way, very few cookbook indexes meet!). The worst example I can think of is found in a favorite Chinese cookbook of mine. The index is simply a list of recipe names filed by first word of the title. This means that in order to find my favorite shrimp salad recipe in this book I must look under 'Q'-- for Quick Shrimp Salad. Cookbook indexes should contain recipe titles, but should also include headings for major ingredients and types of dishes (e.g. shrimp, eggplant, chicken, garbanzo beans as ingredients; and appetizers, bars, breads, cakes, candy, cookies, desserts, salads, snacks, soups as types of dishes). Some cookbooks also need headings, subheadings or separate indexes on cooking methods and equipment. How would the automatic indexing program distinguish which ingredients are significant enough to be indexed, and what type of dish a recipe describes? How would the indexing program distinguish a discussion of related recipes and ingredients in the introductory text for a recipe from a recipe which uses the ingredients mentioned? Perhaps these points will give your friend something to think about when evaluating the index resulting from the automatic process. I think it is worth a bit of your time. Good luck! Regards, Larry Harrison HairyLarry@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:31:45 ECT Reply-To: conaway@lis.fsu.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles W. Conaway" Subject: Re: It happened to me ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Cammie, Like a wonderful meal, the proof is in the eating! Compare the one she got from the automatic approach and one she gets from a sentient and competent user-oriented indexer. If she can't tell the difference, there really isn't one. In message Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:19:56 ECT, Cammie writes: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I've just returned from an "automatic indexing" surprise.... > > Yesterday I went to lunch at a favorite local cafe where the wonderful > cook is working on a cookbook. Several months ago, I spoke briefly with > her about the index and casually offered to do the index for her, for > free, if she were interested. I did so for a variety of reasons, > including: > 1) I need to get some indexing experience under my belt and have some "see > this" examples > > 2) The project is *super low budget* - desk top publishing, printing by a > friend, etc. > > 3) I am a supporter of this particular project because the book is > oriented to whole foods natural cooking > > I've kept in touch with her periodically and today I asked what the status > was. Her reply: "Oh, I've got a friend at BCC (local community college) > who has a system that can automatically index it. So I gave it to him and > it will be done this week and then we will do the layout." > > I was so surprised that I just mumbled "Oh, that's nice," and went and sat > down. Since I had only an hour for lunch and was famished, and surprised, > I said nothing more. > > Of course now I feel that, in the interest of the indexing profession at > least, I should do or say something to at make this person aware of the > pitfalls of so-called "automatic indexing." But I'm not sure what. In > actuality, I don't know when I could find time to work on the index now, > so I'm not sure that I want to bother with that. The book, if it > materializes, won't be distributed by a "real publisher," at least not > initially, and so the impact will be limited. The book might also be the > only thing written by this individual. > > I want to trade-off "doing the right thing" with time & effort & ultimate > effect. So, I'm looking for some creative suggestions. Of course I can > come up with some but 2plus heads are better than one. Here's the payback > - I will compile all of the good suggestions on "how to respond to the > automatic indexing problem" and resend the compilation. This way, everyone > will have a list of rejoinders and strategies to use. We can study these > and be prepared! > > Thanks for any help you contribute! > Charles Wm. Conaway ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:32:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@compuserve.com> Subject: Canadian Indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am trying to help a company in Canada who wants to contract an indexer in Toronto, Ontario, with experience in indexing computer documentation. If you are an indexer in (or near) Toronto, please send an e-mail message to me, and I will forward it to the company. Thanks much. Lori Lathrop P.O. Box 808 Lathrop Media Services Georgetown, CO 80444 INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Phone: 303-567-4011 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:32:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MISIEK@fis.utoronto.ca Organization: Faculty of Information Studies Subject: Consultant on Markup Languages ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Consultant on Markup Languages The Faculty of Information Studies, University of Toronto, is engaged in a pilot project to develop improved retrieval from electronic journals and other electronic texts located on the Internet. In its first stage we are looking for a consultant with extensive knowledge of markup languages and the Internet to evaluate currently available markup languages and recommend the most appropriate language or database repository for storing these texts. The hardware/software platform is a Sun Sparcstation running Solaris. The markup system or database should be able to contain sufficient detail about the texts, such as author, date, title, possibly keywords, etc., so as to be useful for indexed searching by users, but not so much as to be unwieldy or time-consuming to implement and manage. In addition, it should lend itself to easy conversion to other markup languages or destinations such as HTML, Z39.50. The system to run the markup process should be generalized enough that new journals and texts can be included in its scope by specifying some features of the new text's format. The aim of the process would be to automate as much as possible of the markup of a text, to minimize manual markup. It should run automatically as the texts are received electronically. A popular language such as Perl would be preferred for the processing. Requirements: 1. Recommend an appropriate markup language or database for storing issues of electronic journals and other texts. 2. Recommend features of the text to be marked up. 3. Recommend a system to automate the markup procedures as fully as possible. 4. Recommend translation procedures to convert marked-up or stored text for access via WAIS, WWW, gopher, Z39.50, etc. Please send expression of interest and resume of your qualifications to: Marte Misiek, Systems Librarian Faculty of Information Studies University of Toronto 140 St. George St. Toronto ON M5S 1A1 misiek@fis.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 15:54:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DWIGHT WALKER Organization: OzEmail Pty Ltd Subject: Re: SGML book list and markup languages ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This came via a contact I made on the list aus-epub (Australian Electronic Publishing). ( To subscribe to the list send the following: To: majordomo@adfa.oz.au Body: subscribe aus-epub [your name] ) Charles is from Diskrom Australia. He spoke on SGML at the Australian Computer Society meeting in Canberra last Wednesday. Cheers Dwight Walker Forward of message from 'Charles Dean -- INTERNET @ OZ-EMAIL {cdean@vallona.act.acs.org.au}' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: Charles Dean Dwight, Here is the list you asked for, I have also included some addresses of newsletters, and a couple of internet contacts that you may find useful. I recommend "Practical SGML" as the best starting/intermediate level book I have seen. Please contact me if I can be of further help. Regards Charles Dean Books The SGML Primer - SoftQuad Published by SoftQuad Inc., ISBN 1-896172-00-8. (Introductory booklet) Practical SGML Second Edition - Eric van Herwijnen Published by Kluwer Academic Publishers, ISBN 0-7923-9434-8. (Best introduction to SGML that I know) Making Hypermedia Work - Stephen J. DeRose & David G. Durand Published by Kluwer Academic Publishers ISBN 0-7923-9432 (First published book on Hytime) SGML Handbook - Charles F. Goldfarb Oxford University Press, 1990 Sorry no ISBN (An annotated standard by the originator of SGML. Very difficult but the standard reference for advanced questions) Newsletters The SGML Newsletter Graphic Communications Association 100 Dangerfield Rd, Alexandria, VA 22314-2804 USA International SGML Users Group Newsletter and Bulletin Stephen G. Downie, Sectretary C/0 SoftQuad Inc. 56 Aberfoyle Cres, Suite 810, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M8X 2W4 EPSIG News C/0 Frantz Rd, Dublin, Ohio 43017-0702 USA CALS Newsletter C/- CALS office Dept of Defense ACT Canberra Internet Newsgroup - comp.text.sgml (Largest ftp site, has the SGML FAQ and much other stuff) FTP: ifi.uio.no/pub/SGML ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 15:54:39 ECT Reply-To: Kari Bero Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: It happened to me In-Reply-To: <9409240126.AA19321@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Does a comparison of a computer generated index and an indexer generated index already exist? Has anyone published such a comparison? If you personally have, I'd be interested in seeing it. You can send them to me via email to: bero@u.washington.edu or via snailmail to: Kari Bero Reference and Research Services Division Suzzallo Library FM-25 University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 I can let Cammie know and post a summary of results to the list. -Kari Bero ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 15:55:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Ann Smith Subject: Re: INDEXICON software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi. Has anyone out there ever used INDEXICON for automatic indexing? As a project for an INdexing class, I will be reviewing this software. Interestingly, I will be comparing some results of what it can do with the manual results another student in class will get from her project of indexing a book written by a professor in our dept (nice complex sentence huh?). Anyway, if anyone has used this software, I'd appreciate reading comments, stories (horror or other). Please respond directly to me. Thanks! Allison Smith asmith@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 15:56:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Re: Questions for indexers In-Reply-To: <199409231849.AA31200@email.nla.gov.au> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Fri, 23 Sep 1994, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Glenda in Australia had asked for answers to several questions about > index pricing. I sent a message to her (at Glenda@sydney.dialix.oz.au), > but I received a note this morning that the message was undeliverable; > the address was nonexistent, or so I was told. Hmmmmmm. Glenda, if > you're out there, I'm trying to send you a response, so please drop > me a note. Thanks much. I also got the "undeliverable" message. There's something wrong with your address or mail system Glenda. ---..____________ Sandra Henderson / . ) \\ Manager / ) || National Bibliographic Publications | |/ _) || National Library of Australia |/ - \ / \ || Ph 61 6 262 1523 /|| | |\_____\ /\ Fax 61 6 2731180 \\ | | | | Email shenders@nla.gov.au ||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 15:57:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jonathan@sydney.DIALix.oz.au Subject: Index pricing--Mailing problems ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In my recent request for information on index pricing and quoting, the wrong address appeared in the header. My partner and I share an account, and mail to me should be sent to the address above, i.e. jonathan@sydney.dialix.oz.au I am sorry for any confusion or trouble that this may have caused. Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 21:00:38 AEST Sender: jonathan@sydney.dialix.oz.au Thanks, Glenda Browne. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 08:58:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EKOCH@VM1.YorkU.CA Subject: EAC seminars (long posting) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Apologies to those who've seen this elsewhere... The fall session of seminars offered by the Editors' Association of Canada. The following are offered by the Toronto and National Capital Region (NCR) branches. In Toronto, seminars take place at Victoria College on the University of Toronto campus; for more information, call 416/691-4964. In Ottawa, seminars take place at the National Library of Canada; for more information, call 613/236-8374. For more information about seminars offered by the other EAC branches, call the BC branch (604/681-7184) and the Quebec/Atlantic Canada (QAC) branch (514/849-9886). You can also email Madeline Koch (in Toronto) at ekoch@vm1.yorku.ca. All prices quoted are in Canadian dollars. NEWSLETTERS (Toronto); Oct. 1; 10am-3pm; $90 members, $105 nonmembers, including lunch; very popular introduction to the essentials of writing and producing newsletters. FUNDAMENTALS OF FREELANCING (NCR); Oct. 3; 7-10pm; $40 members, $45 nonmembers; and STARTING OUT AND TRHIVING AS A FREELANCE EDITOR (Toronto); Nov. 12; 9am-5pm; $95 members, $110 nonmembers, including lunch.Ever-popular introductions to the benefits and perils of freelance editing. PROOFREADING (Toronto); Oct. 5, 12; 7-9:30pm; $75 members, $85 nonmembers; two-part seminar on the basic methods and technical skills. INDEXING FOR FUN AND PROFIT (NCR); Oct. 15; 9am-4pm; $100 members, $125 nonmembers; why indexes, who indexes, when to index, etc. PRACTICAL GRAMMAR (Toronto); Oct. 17, 24, 31, Nov. 7; 7-9:30pm; $115 members, $135 nonmembers; four-part seminar on grammar fundamentals so you can move beyond the "feel-good" method. COPY EDITING 1 (Toronto); Oct. 29 and Nov. 5, 10am-4pm; $115 members, $135 nonmembers; two-part overview of publishing in general and the role of the editor, directed at novice or would-be editors. COPY EDITING 2 (Toronto); Nov. 8, 15, 22; 7-9:30pm; $95 members, $110 nonmembers; three-part seminar to pick up where Copy Editing 1 left off. IT'S A MATTER OF STYLE (Toronto); Nov. 19; 10am-4pm; $90 members, $105 nonmembers, including lunch; discussion of types of style guides, Canadian setting style guidelines, etc. EIGHT-STEP EDITING (NCR); Nov. 22, 23; 7-10pm; $100 members, $125 nonmembers; two-part breakdown of the editorial process into a series of tasks. Phone numbers for info: Toronto: 416/691-4964 NCR: 613/236-8374 Quebec/Atlantic Canada: 514/849-9886 BC: 604/681-7184 Enjoy! Madeline Koch ekoch@vm1.yorku.ca QUIT